Sitting of 11 February 1852

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—Right Hon. Fox Maule, for Perth.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° London (City) Improvements; Sale of Beer; County Rates and Expenditure.

MANCHESTER AND SALFORD EDUCATION BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. BROTHERTON, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said, that its object was to provide a free education for the poor inhabitants of the boroughs of Manchester and Salford; and so far as those boroughs were concerned, to carry out the
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desire expressed by our beloved Queen, "That the youth of this country should be religiously brought up, the rights of conscience being respected." The funds for that purpose were to be provided by local rates, to be administered by the town councils of Manchester and Salford, or Committees to be appointed by them. He believed that there was some difference of opinion as to whether the Act would carry out the intentions of its promoters; but those differences were not such that they could not be met by the insertion of certain clauses in the Bill. He, therefore, asked the House to allow the Bill to go into Committee, that it might be fairly considered in all its provisions, and any difference that existed might then be arranged. It was certainly very much to the credit of the ratepayers of these two large boroughs, that they had desired the education of the people to be immediately undertaken, and that they were willing to tax themselves by a local rate, in order that a fair experiment might be made on this important subject. The Bill was generally acceptable to the ratepayers of the two boroughs, for petitions had been presented to that House from the three townships comprised in the Bill, signed by the majority of the ratepayers, not only in number, but also, he believed, in regard to the amount of assessment. The petition from Manchester was signed by 27,596 persons, that from Salford by 6,392, and that from Broughton by 2,396; the residence and amount of assessment of each person being in every case appended to his signature. For his own part, he avowed that his own predilection was in favour of a secular scheme of education that should not infringe upon the rights and consciences of any. But we must take mankind as they are; and when all classes in Manchester had united to form a Bill, and had made mutual concessions, with a view to the promotion of the great question of the education of the poorer classes, he felt it was the duty of all to be willing to make concessions, in order that this great object might be accomplished. With regard to particular scruples as to religious teaching, he felt very much disposed to give way, rather than permit the further continuance of that street instruction which led to poverty, misery, and crime. When, therefore, he balanced these considerations, he thought that great good might be effected by carrying out this Bill. He preferred it, in the present state of public feeling,

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to a general measure, for he was sure that it would he extremely difficult to frame such a measure as would be equally applicable to the agricultural and manufacturing districts. It was from a feeling of that difficulty that it had been desired that the towns of Manchester and Salford should, as an experiment, unite for this laudable purpose; and he hoped that if the Bill underwent the investigation of a fair Committee, they would form such a measure as would give general satisfaction, and would fully protect the rights of conscience of all.
MR. W. BROWN,in seconding the Motion, said, that he was very desirous to see this Bill sent to a Committee upstairs, because he thought that a good deal of valuable evidence would be elicited, and that even if this Bill did not pass during the present Session, the investigation would put the Government in possession of much information, which would be of great value to the Prime Minister in the preparation of the general measure of education, which he had announced his intention of introducing next year.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that he thought the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton) had given a somewhat too highly coloured description of the amount of support which the Bill had received in Manchester. It was perfectly true that the Bill was supported by a large body of the ratepayers paying upon a very considerable assessment, and also that it was promoted by gentlemen whose opinions are entitled to great consideration and deference; but it was not correct to say that the Bill was supported by the whole of the inhabitants of Manchester. [Mr. BROTHERTON: I did not say so.] He had understood his hon. Friend to say, that the Bill was supported generally by the inhabitants of the borough. However, up to this moment, he, as the representative of Manchester, had received no intimation whatever of the course which the corporation of Manchester, the legitimate representative of that great body of the ratepayers, was prepared to take upon this occasion. Indeed, the hon. Member for South Lancashire (Mr. W. Brown) appeared rather to contemplate referring the Bill to a Committee upstairs, with the view of supplying the Government with information on which a measure might be founded
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in a subsequent Session, than that this Bill should become law during the present year. He should feel very great difficulty, whatever his own private opinions upon this measure might be, in opposing its being considered by a Private Bill Committee; because when a respectable body of men came to Parliament with a measure, asking to have the advantage of their judicial inquiry—for private legislation now came under that description—he thought that there must be some very strong and special reasons shown, before the House would be justified in refusing their request. He could, however, show a special reason for the Amendment which he was about to propose. He wished the House to agree to the postponement of the Bill, because, while on the one hand, he should be unwilling to throw any unnecessary impediment in the way of the ratepayers, or any portion of them, having their proposal considered by a Committee; on the other hand, he desired that all who were entitled to be heard in opposition, had equal favour shown to them, and that nothing was done precipitately, so as to deprive the corporation—the representative of the whole body of the ratepayers—of the opportunity of being heard, if it so pleased them, in opposition to this Bill, and which would be the effect of their reading it a second time. He was informed that the corporation were about to meet, on the 18th instant, to take the measure into consideration; and as by the Standing Orders of the House any person petitioning against a private Bill, and desiring to be heard in opposition before a Select Committee, must present his petition within seven clear days of the second reading of the Bill, if the corporation of Manchester should decide at their meeting to oppose the Bill, they would be deprived of the opportunity of being heard if the House proceeded to read the Bill immediately. This measure was of infinite importance to the future welfare, peace, and harmony of the whole of the inhabitants of Manchester; and he was quite sure that a Committee of that House would feel themselves in a most unfortunate position if, by any hasty reading of this Bill a second time, they were to be deprived of the opportunity of hearing the views of the corporation upon it. Without, therefore, going into the principle of the measure, or stating any opinion whatever upon it, he would upon this ground move that the second reading of the Bill be postponed for a fortnight.
Amendment proposed to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words, "upon Wednesday the 25th day of this instant February."
Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
MR. WILSON PATTENsaid, it was his intention to support the Bill, not only so far as the technical forms of the House were concerned, but also upon its merits. He felt bound to say a few words on the subject, as he had taken charge of this particular department of the private business of the House. With respect to what had fallen from the right hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson), as to the propriety of postponing this Bill for a fortnight, because the corporation of Manchester had not had an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon its merits, he was in a position to state to the House that this Bill had been under discussion in Manchester for now more than two years, and that during that period it had formed a prominent subject of discussion in the newspapers of every party. Its nature had, therefore, been fully known in Manchester for many months, and it was therefore in the power of any party in that borough to take the proper steps for opposing it in Parliament if they were so disposed. But he strongly suspected that the reason why the corporation of Manchester had not presented any petition against the Bill was, that there was no very great objection to the Bill on the part of the corporation collectively, though there might be on the part of some of its Members. For every party in that town, whatever might be their opinions, looked with great approbation upon those who had brought forward this Bill, and who had for two years bestowed great pains and labour upon its preparation. There could be no necessity for postponing the second reading upon the grounds stated by the right hon. Member for Manchester, because no doubt the Bill would be opposed in Committee, and any feeling which might be entertained upon the subject by the corporation of Manchester would receive the greatest attention from them in a matter in which that body were so vitally interested. With regard to the merits of the Bill, he must say, there was no subject which had created such a strong feeling in the county he had the honour to represent (Lancashire) as that of education, which had been discussed in every part of the county for several years. There was a party who wished to establish a ge-
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neral system of secular education through the country; but he thought that the minds of the people were by no means made up upon that scheme; though many of the supporters of this Bill were in favour of that system. But what was felt in Manchester was, that if this measure was rejected until the question of national education was settled, Manchester might be left for years in uncertainty upon a question on which its mind was made up, and the mass of its population might remain uneducated. In Manchester, taking the schools of all denominations, there was at present accommodation for 62,000 scholars. By this Bill it was proposed that the present managers of these schools should still continue to manage them; except that they should not be allowed to teach the dogmas of their own religion to the children of any inhabitant who objected to such instruction being combined with the general secular and religious instruction which these schools would in future be hound to furnish to all. Upon this subject there had been much discussion; several plans to meet the religious objections of various denominations had been submitted to the Committee who had prepared the Bill, and who had ultimately come to the conclusion that while the provisions of this Bill would afford education to all, the conscientious scruples of no religious body could be offended; and he thought that no one who read the Bill would hesitate to come to the same conclusion. Then there came a clause enacting that if the establishment of any further schools were required out of the rates, the Scriptures should be read in them. But as there was accommodation in the existing schools for 62,000 children, but by no means that number of scholars, he did not think that this provision, which would offend the scruples of the Roman Catholics, was likely to come into operation. At any rate, it was a question for a Committee of the House to decide whether that clause should be inserted or not. This measure being one in which the religious feelings of every class in the community had been consulted, it had been supported by the bishop, the dean, the whole of the clergymen of the Church of England in Manchester, and the great majority of the Dissenting Ministers; and although the Roman Catholics objected to the provision which he had just mentioned, they felt, that the benefits of the measure would be so great as regarded their present schools, that he believed they

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were in favour of the measure with that exception, because it would afford them means of instructing their children, far beyond those they now possessed. With regard to the numbers who supported the measure, he believed that, taking out the females and double entries, there were 60,000 ratepayers in Manchester; and of these rather more than 40,000 had signed the petitions in favour of this Bill. Now, as this measure applied solely to the borough of Manchester, and did not seek to involve any other place in its operation, he thought that this fact entitled it at all events to a second reading. If, however, the House considered that the subject, being one of great importance, required a different tribunal for the consideration of its details from that to which a private Bill was ordinarily submitted, he might say on the part of the promoters of the Bill that they had no objection to the adoption of such a course, or to its merits being discussed in any manner upon which the House might decide. He would himself suggest that the Government should name a tribunal by whom the measure should he considered. That was a course which would give entire satisfaction to the promoters of the Bill, who had no objection to the Bill being considered and discussed as a public Bill, though by the forms of the House they were compelled to introduce it as a private Bill. If the House refused to read this Bill a second time, it would cause great disappointment to a vast body of people who were interested in it; and whatever might be the way in which they dealt with it, they would, if they knew the assiduity and trouble and talent bestowed upon it in the town of Manchester, hesitate before they offered opposition to its passing through any of its stages.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, that be thought the hon. Member who had just resumed his seat had failed to reply to the objection of his (Mr. Bright's) right hon. Colleague (Mr. M. Gibson), that the corporation of Manchester had not yet had an opportunity of discussing the Bill; and that if the House proceeded immediately to read it a second time, there would not be time for the corporation to present a petition, so as to entitle themselves to be hoard in opposition to it before the Committee. Now, it was no doubt true that this measure, and another with a similar object, had been discussed in Manchester, though not, he thought, for two years, yet certainly
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for more than one; but the hon. Member must know that various plans had been submitted to the population of Manchester in this period; that they had been objected to, and that repeated alterations had been made to meet the objections of various classes of the community; so that the corporation of Manchester were wholly unable to come to any consideration of the real nature of the measure, until the promoters of the measure laid it upon the table of the House. What could have been more absurd than that they should have met and discussed either this plan or the secular plan until they were definitely arranged and laid before the House in the shape they were intended permanently to assume? The hon. Member for North Lancashire (Mr. Wilson Patten) might find himself much mistaken if he fancied there was such unanimity in the corporation with regard to this matter. [Mr. W. PATTEN: I did not say so.] This Bill proposed that the whole population of Manchester should be rated for education, and the corporation must clearly be an authority recognised by the House, for it was the instrument appointed in the Bill for the collection of the rates. The Bill might go on to propose that some other authority superior to the corporation should interfere in the administration of the funds. If, then, the corporation had any regard for its municipal dignity and character, it had an undoubted right, and in fact it was its bounden duty, deliberately and most seriously to consider this measure; nor was that House less bound, in his opinion, to defer very largely to the opinion of a body elected freely by the large body of the ratepayers of that great town. He (Mr. Bright) and his right hon. Colleague were not acting in hostility to this Bill, and had no idea of preventing it from going to the consideration of a proper tribunal. That was all he and those with whom he was acting asked the House; they did not ask the House to postpone the Bill for a fortnight in order that they might then be in a better position to oppose it; or for the purpose of preventing its deliberate consideration before a Committee. But from what be had heard of the opinions of Manchester, looking at the mode in which this Bill interfered with the powers of the corporation, looking also to the point that it was a question of much greater magnitude than those Bills for lighting and paving towns, &c, which wore usually referred to a Committee of five Members;

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and looking to the great difference of opinion which certainly prevailed, notwithstanding the number of signatures which the petitions in favour of the Bill had received, he thought they were quite justified in asking the House not to reject the Bill, or to dispose of it permanently, but to postpone it for a fortnight, that they might have the opinion of that authority in Manchester which the House recognised as the municipal government of the town. He quite agreed with the hon. Member opposite (Mr. W. Patten) that the promoters of this measure had shown great industry and great regard for the population amongst which they lived; and although he might differ widely from them in his estimate of some of the clauses, he was not adopting the course which he urged upon the House with any hostile views, but simply upon those which he had already mentioned. He submitted to the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton) whether, after the pledges which had been given him, he would not serve the interests of those whom he represented by consenting to the postponement of the second reading to that day fortnight.
MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that the great difficulty which he felt with regard to this Bill, and the point to which he was most anxious that the attention of the House should be called, was this, that on the present occasion, under the name, and he had no doubt the technical definitions, of a private Bill, the House was discussing, not only that which was a public measure, as affecting the public and the general law of the country, but that which was a public measure of the very highest importance, involving the most serious difficulties and the very highest principles which that House could upon any occasion be called upon to consider. And he must say that he felt very great difficulty when a question of this kind was brought before them only eight days after the opening of the Session, mixed up with a multitude of other private Bills, when hon. Members were beset out of doors with gentlemen full of zeal for this Water Bill and that Water Bill, and when the House approached the discussion under the circumstances and in the state of mind in which it usually came to the consideration of private business—a state of mind differing totally from that calm and deliberate composure which a measure of this kind required. The hon. Member for North Lancashire (Mr. W. Patten) had said that this Bill applied en-
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tirely to the borough of Manchester, and did not in the slightest degree involve any other place. No doubt that appeared on the face of the Bill; but would any one contend that the adoption of a system of education involving principles of the greatest novelty and the greatest importance, for a district containing 400,000 people, in the case of Manchester, would not prejudge the legislation of the country with regard to education. Another reason why he felt the greatest difficulty in assenting to the second reading of the Bill at the present moment was, that there was no Member of the Government in his place prepared to give his judgment on the subject. Within the last few days, too, they had heard an announcement from the First Lord of the Treasury, that he considered that if the question of Parliamentary Reform were disposed of during the present Session, the next great measure undertaken should be the establishment of a system of public education. Would this Bill have no influence on that general measure? He would put to the hon. Member for North Lancashire this dilemma. They were asked to enact for Manchester the principle of supporting out of the rates the existing schools, subject to certain limitations, and to apply to a new system of education a new and specific religious basis as yet unknown to the country, for schools that might hereafter be built out of the rates. It was, in fact, a full, perfect, and consummate system of popular education for one district. It was no doubt true, as the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton) had said, that the circumstances of the populous town districts differed from those of rural districts; and that a precedent laid down with respect to a town would not materially fetter their legislation for the rural districts. But suppose they passed this Bill for Manchester, and that the next year they had a similar petition from Liverpool, and the year following one from Leeds, and the year after one from Birmingham; were they to bind Liverpool, Leeds, and Birmingham, to the principles they had laid down for Manchester? If they were, he contended that the House was then considering a public and a national question, and that they ought to have all the opportunities for considering it, which the forms of Parliamentary procedure afforded. On the other hand, were the supporters of this measure prepared to say that on a question affecting the religious divisions amongst

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us, they would legislate on one basis for Manchester, and upon other bases for Liverpool, Leeds, and Birmingham? Such were the difficulties of the case, that he confessed he had great doubt whether a local Bill of this kind should he entertained in the present case. But at the same time he would not go so far as to say that no such local Bill should be entertained. He felt, in the first place, that Manchester, on account of the energy and intelligence of its inhabitants, and on account of the vigilant attention they paid to all public discussions, had the greatest claim upon the respect and attention of that House. And there was no case in which the inhabitants of Manchester could have a greater claim on the attention of that House than in the present one; because he agreed entirely with all that had been said by preceding speakers of the honour and credit due to the promoters of this measure, for the patience and the vigour with which they had laboured to overcome and conciliate differences of opinion for the great purpose of promoting public education. They could not then go into the difficulties that attached, he thought, to many clauses of this Bill. There were many parts of the Bill in which he could heartily agree; there were many other parts of it in which he could not do so, but respecting which there appeared to be a difference of opinion even amongst the people of Manchester; and there were other parts of the Bill to which he had an insuperable objection. This was a measure to which the attention of the House should be called as fully as to any other measure submitted to them during the present Session of Parliament; and it was as great an anomaly to have a local Education Bill for Manchester, as to have a special Parliamentary Reform Bill or Franchise Bill for Manchester. Therefore he should support the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson). He was not aware whether the business or arrangements of the House would permit it, but his object would he fully attained if this Bill were altogether discussed as a public Bill on the second reading. It was notorious that in the case of a private Bill brought forward on the application of ratepayers, it was almost conclusively settled on the second reading, or it was sent to a Committee, and it was left with them to deal with the details. This was too important a Bill to be treated in that way. It was admitted that in this case there was
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a deviation from the usual course of proceeding, and before they assented to the principle of the Bill they should know what was the course spoken of. He put it as a point of fairness to his hon. Friend (Mr. W. Patten), that before a Bill of this nature was read a second time they should know what security there was for the future discussion of its provisions. The discussion of a measure of great importance, under the title of a private Bill, was a matter of so much moment and of so much danger, that they ought to look a little around them, and see at what point they were likely to arrive. It was perfectly plain that if this system were allowed to prevail, the whole scheme and form of legislation for the country might be thrown into confusion. If Bills were passed through Parliament as private Bills, and escaped on that account the attention of the House, they would prejudge one by one every important question: and when the House subsequently came to discuss those questions in a general and comprehensive form, it would find that its hands were already tied by decisions obtained from it unawares on private Bills. They had already two examples of this nature in regard to the town of Manchester: in one case having erected the collegiate church of Manchester into a cathedral, and put it under the general law of cathedrals, the House took it out of that category, and remodelled it by a private Bill. They had dealt with the chapter and cathedral by a private Bill, but they had brought into existence the bishopric of Manchester by a public Bill. In the other case his right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) had introduced, as a public Bill, a measure for regulating the bonding system in Manchester; but last year that public Bill had been repealed by a private Bill. He wished to have a full discussion of this measure before it went to the Committee, and also that they should know beforehand what course it was to take after it passed the second reading, because their votes on the second reading might be regulated by that course. It was a great hardship to parties who desired to oppose a Bill of this nature, that they should be obliged to oppose it by counsel and agents before the Committee. This was a question of public principle, and the rule was, that when they were discussing matters of high public concern before the House, the country should bear the expense. In the present

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case, there was a great body of promoters, and they did not complain of the expense; but a person should have the power to oppose a Bill of this kind without being put to expense in doing so. Instead of discussing the question as they then were, when one-fourth of the Members of the House were not aware of the nature of the Bill, they should have early attention drawn to every point it contained, and they should know what course it would take if it passed the second reading. He should be glad if the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. M. Gibson) was to the effect that the Bill should be discussed as a public Bill on the second reading. The Amendment that had been proposed by the right hon. Member for Manchester would at all events have the effect of calling attention to the subject. This was important, not with a view to risk the Bill by delay, but for the sake of doing what they could to bring this measure into the position of prominence which it ought to occupy. He would, therefore, give his vote in support of the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman.
MR. CARDWELLhoped that neither high authority nor great ability would be successful in defeating a measure of this kind on dilatory pleas which he thought he could show were in their nature purely technical, and in their operation entirely inconsistent and opposed to one another. There came before the House 40,500 persons, ratepayers of Manchester and of the adjoining districts, including the bishop, dean, chapter, and clergy, the Independent ministers, the Wesleyan ministers, and almost, if not altogether, every denomination, constituting the majority, both in numbers and value, not merely of the whole community, but of every particular district of the community, and they were all in favour of the Bill. [Mr. BRIGHT: Subject to inquiry.] Subject to inquiry—then go into Committee and inquire. Upwards of 40,000 ratepayers had signed the petition, and when they came before the House on the second reading of the Bill, how were they met? Not by argument against the principle of the measure, but by two dilatory pleas. The two Members of Parliament for Manchester, speaking against a majority of the ratepayers of Manchester, claimed that the Bill should be delayed for this reason—that the corporation might have an opportunity of considering it, while, in fact, the Bill had been before the public of Manchester for the last two years. [Mr. BRIGHT: The
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plan, not the Bill, which is a different thing altogether.] Not different altogether. If there were any difference of detail, that would appear in the Committee. The plan had been more than a year before the corporation of Manchester, and they had every opportunity of presenting petitions on the subject. They might have a very great respect for the opinions of the corporation of Manchester; but their own Standing Orders were of more importance, and although the corporation of Manchester might appoint a particular time for the consideration of the Bill, it was by the Standing Orders of the House their proceedings should be regulated. His right hon. Friend who just sat down (Mr. Gladstone) took also a technical objection, and of a different kind. He said they should call public attention to the subject by making it a public Bill; and he asked why they should then debate a Bill of this kind when there were gentlemen attending outside to promote the passing of Water Bills. He (Mr. Cardwell) appealed to the House if there could be a better opportunity for dispassionate debate than the opportunity now presented. What better time could be selected than Twelve o'clock on the first Wednesday of the Session for such a purpose, after special notice given the day before at Five o'clock? If his right hon. Friend wished to debate this question in detail, on public principles, let him wait until the Bill came down from the Select Committee. He might then move that it be referred to a Committee of the whole House, and there would thus be a double argument—they would have an argument upstairs, where the interests of Manchester would be considered, and they would have an argument in that House with regard to the public objects of the Bill. It was said that they should not legislate on the question for Manchester alone; but what answer was that to the people of Manchester, whom they praised so justly for their laudable exertions on this subject. Had they no experience of the fruitless endeavours to make an Education Bill a general Bill? A plan for promoting secular education was brought forward by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. W. J. Fox), with consummate ability, and the House rejected it because it was not a Bill involving religion. But they had some experience of the fate of Bills involving religion. Did they forget the Bill of his right hon. Friend the Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) in 1843?

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His right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) was a Member of the Government on whose behalf the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon propounded that measure It was a strong Government, and it was no inconsiderable advocate who took the management of that Bill; and what did the people of Manchester find? They found that a whole generation of children had grown up in ignorance and vice since that Bill had failed in that House. When they saw that the most consummate ability could not obtain for them a system of education either secular or scriptural, then they asked for permission to avail themselves of the only means which Parliament laid open to them, namely, to bring forward a Bill peculiar to Manchester, and take upon themselves the whole responsibility of going on with it. That was the case at present; and they had matured a Bill which, in their belief, secured the valuable advantages of good secular and religious education, and was free from objection. The corporation would have seven days to petition against it, and if any person objected to it after it passed through the Committee, he could move that it be referred to a Committee of the whole House. In short, they would have every opportunity for fair discussion, and yet they were now called upon by a dilatory plea to resist the second reading of a Bill which was promoted by a large majority of the inhabitants of Manchester.
MR. W. J. FOXsaid, he would not have thought it necessary to say anything after the lucid speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone), were it not that an impression might have been produced by what was said by the hon. Member for North Lancashire (Mr. W. Patten), and the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Cardwell), that there was something approaching to unanimity amongst the religionists of different persuasions in Manchester, on the subject of this Bill. That, most assuredly, was very far from being the case. The Catholic priesthood of Manchester, the Jews, and the Society of Friends in Manchester, had all remonstrated and protested against the provisions of this measure. There were also other rival societies in the field, and out of throe public meetings held on the subject, one only was in support of this measure, and two were hostile to it. It was said that the majority of persons on the rating-books had signed the
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petition; but it should be remembered that there was a large body of people in Manchester, liberal minded men, interested in promoting education, and willing to make great sacrifices so that something was done, who in signing the petition did not by any means declare that they did not equally or more approve of some other scheme. They had signed the petition in order that some plan or other might be adopted; and if he had been accurately informed, an absolute majority of the people of Manchester had petitioned for a rival and competitive plan. And though they might not be considered as influential as those on the books of ratepayers, yet they belonged to the class on which the provisions of the Bill were likely to operate. They belonged to the working classes, whose children were to be sent to school, and it was important that in passing any Bill they should have their assent and cooperation. There were two large education associations in Manchester: one of them proposed the present measure, and the other preferred a different scheme. These were the persons who preferred the secular plan—men who had bestowed pains and labour on the matter, and who might in that respect be compared to the promoters of the Bill, whoso painstaking qualities he should not by any means attempt to underrate. Besides, there was that large body of persons—the voluntary educationists—who had a title to be heard on the subject. He had received a letter on the preceding day expressing surprise at the rapidity with which the Bill was hurried on; and the writer expressed the determination of himself and those who co-operated with him to give it as much opposition as they could, and hoped that an opportunity would be given them of opposing it. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had referred to the inconvenience of discussing a public measure as a private one. There were principles involved upon which Parliament and Government hesitated; but those local authorities had rushed in prematurely to settle them, while they were looking forward to some more general measure to be introduced by the Government itself. He (Mr. W. J. Fox) was not opposing the Motion on religious grounds. Whatever his own opinions might be as to the best mode of solving the education question, he had no desire to oppose the wishes of any locality if they were unanimously anxious to have religion interwoven with the system. He should be exceed-

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ingly happy to promote such a measure, and he thought it would he a great benefit to the community to have a union of feelings and thoughts on such an important subject. He did not object to it on that ground, but on the ground that they were not fulfilling the conditions which had been laid down by the noble Lord at the head of the Government in the last Session of Parliament. The noble Lord had said that two things were necessary: first, that the education should he religious; and, next, that they should do, no violence to the conscience of any person. So far as he was concerned with the provisions of the Bill, he must say there were conscientious classes to whom it would be objectionable. What would be the consequence of establishing such a measure as this in Manchester on the eve of a more general measure? They would go forward with a Bill for the exclusion of the Jews and Roman Catholics, and against which the Society of Friends had protested. The result must he heartburnings and the excitement of something like the Church-rate agitation, and the great question of education would be prejudiced. They would destroy the humanising feelings and the grateful expectation with which a measure of education would he looked for, and they would throw the people of a great and populous district into a state of mind that would be unfit for the reception of that benevolent measure which they might expect was in preparation. He hoped the second reading of the Bill would be so arranged that it would come fully and fairly under consideration.
MR. HUMEsaid, as an ardent supporter of education, he must appeal to his hon. Friend who had charge of the Bill whether standing on a matter of form was calculated to advance the common object? Could the delay of a few days affect the great principle so unanimously adopted with respect to the necessity of promoting education? He held an entirely different opinion from those who regarded this Bill as being of the nature of a private Bill. He had ventured last night to call the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Government to the Bill, stating that it appeared to him to involve a great public question which it was not proper to discuss on a private Bill, and expressing the hope that the noble Lord would be in his place when the measure came on for discussion to-day. He regretted that the noble Lord, being
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otherwise engaged, had been prevented from attending. He would tell the hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Cardwell), that so far from this being a fit and proper time for entering on the subject of the Bill, the question of education ought not to be discussed except in the presence of the First Lord of the Treasury and of the Secretary for the Home Department. It was altogether an interference with the private business to introduce the subject on the present occasion. The question involved in the Bill was the great question, whether education should he carried on by means of a rate imposed on the community. He was one of those who held that the whole community ought to be educated by means of a rate on property; for education, in his opinion, was as much required by the general interest as perhaps the law which compelled property to give the destitute physical support. The Bill was intended to affirm the right to tax the property of the community at large for educational purposes at the request of a certain proportion of the community; but of the 40,000 who had signed the petition presented in favour of the Bill, he understood that a large number had signed on the ground that it was a petition for education generally. No open public meeting had expressed an opinion in favour of the Bill; admission to the meetings which had been held was by tickets alone. His objection, however, to now proceeding with the Bill was, that the question ought to be dealt with by Government; and, after the declaration of the noble Lord two nights ago, that it was the intention of the Government to take up the subject, he thought it would be premature to enter on the consideration of the Bill before the House.
SIR FRANCIS BARINGadmitted the great importance of the Bill, but thought it was exceedingly desirable that the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and also the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department, should be in the House when the measure was under discussion. He was of opinion that it would be of advantage to postpone the second reading, and, with the permission of the House, he would move the adjournment of the debate to Wednesday next. [Cries of "This day fortnight."] No. What he thought fair was to leave the question in debate undecided only until his noble Friend should be in his place.
Debate adjourned till Wednesday next.

NEW RIVER COMPANY BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
MR. COWPERsaid, he had to express his regret that he should be under the necessity of opposing this Bill. His objections went rather to its principle than to its object. His main objection was, that the Bill contained a clause which enacted robbery and plunder. The Bill professed to improve the supply of water received from the New River Company; and if it were desired only to improve the supply of water, he would not offer any opposition. But the Bill gave the company power to take water which did not belong to them. It gave them power to take a portion of the river Lea, and the whole of one of its tributaries. For a great many years the property of the Lea had been admitted to rest in the river Lea trustees. A question had arisen between the river Lea trustees and the New River Company relating to the amount of water allowed to be taken from the river Lea; and it had become the subject of a suit in Chancery. If the clause to which he objected in the Bill were to pass, the company would acquire a right to which they had no claim. The money which would be wasted in the proceedings before a Committee might be better applied to the improvement of the navigation of the river Lea. There was another reason for which he asked the House to refuse a second reading to this Bill. The New River Company had at that moment two Bills before the House; and the other Bill—which had been brought forward last year, to enable them to make such improvements as might be necessary in the distribution of the water—would give them all the powers they required. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that the Bill be read a Second Time.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
SIR EDWARD COLEBROOKEsaid, that he had been requested by the promoters of the Bill, in consequence of the absence of the hon. Member for Scarborough (Sir J. Johnstone) and another hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill, to watch the proceedings at the present stage of its progress. The argument of the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Cowper) rested mainly on the ground that the Bill interfered with suits at law now actually pending. He had been informed
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that the company were not aware that any suit was pending, for Vice-Chancellor Turner had rejected the petition of the trustees of the river Lea, but during the interval which had elapsed since that statement was made to him, that is, within the last two hours, the first step had been taken towards commencing an action, notice having been given. Was it fair, then, to prevent the promoters of the Bill from bringing their case before a Committee of that House, or to prevent the inhabitants of the metropolis from deriving the advantages they would obtain from this Bill? There were other interests to be considered besides those of the trustees of the river Lea—the supply of water to 87,000 houses would be affected by the decision of the House.
MAJOR BERESFORDsaid, that as one of the Members for the county of Essex, he had looked into the trusts of the river Lea. He found that under several Acts of Parliament the trustees had exercised their rights not as a speculative company, but for the purpose of doing justice to the objects of the trust, and preserving the navigation of the river Lea in serviceable order. If any surplus remained, they applied it to lowering tolls or otherwise for the public benefit, because the trustees did not desire to accumulate money for their own advantage. They thought it unjust that they should be dragged before Committees to expend the produce of their tolls in defending property protected by Acts of Parliament. When certain rights had been conferred upon them by such Acts, it was not fitting that they should be told those rights were to be taken from them in favour of a private company. It was almost insinuated by the promoters of the Bill, that the trustees of the river Lea had never obtained an injunction in the Court of Chancery; but the fact was that an injunction had been obtained at one time, but the New River Company having altered their tactics, the trustees were advised to go to a court of law to recover damages. Therefore, whether the notice of the action was given on that day or a month ago, made no difference. He trusted the House would at once reject the Bill, on the ground that it was an invasion of the rights of the trustees of the river Lea, and an interference with questions submitted to the highest court of judicature in this country.
MR. HUMEthought the House ought to decide this matter in accordance with the Resolution it adopted on the 1st of

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August last, to the effect that this and other Bills mentioned therein should be allowed to proceed next Session to the stage at which the proceedings respecting them had been brought last Session. Those Bills should be passed through their earlier stages sub silentio, and as a matter of right.
MR. FORBES MACKENZIEsaid, he had acted as Chairman of a Committee to which, three years ago, had been referred a Bill relating to the river Lea navigation, and having for its object the improvement of the navigation for the public good. The trustees were compelled to incur great expense; but it was obvious that if the tributary stream were taken away, so great a quantity of water would be abstracted as to occasion serious detriment to the property of the trust. He should, therefore, support the Motion of the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. Cowper).
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 80; Noes 54: Majority 26.
Main Question put, and agreed to; Bill read 2°, and committed, and referred to the Committee of Selection.

SUPPLY—EXCHEQUER BILLS.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISmoved that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
House in Committee.
MR. HUMEwished to know what had been the rate of interest which the Exchequer Bills had borne during the last year?
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISreplied, that the rate of interest during the last year had been 1½d. per diem.
MR. HUMEwould merely ask, further, whether the time had not come when the state of the money market would not admit of a lower rate of interest?
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISsaid, in the absence of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he could not give an answer to the question of the hon. Member for Montrose.
MR. W. WILLIAMSwould submit that the time had come when the public were entitled to have the interest on Exchequer Bills materially reduced; and said he must express his regret that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in his place to explain the course he intended to take in the matter.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISsaid, his
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righ hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was unavoidably absent from the House in consequence of being required to attend the Council to-day.
MR. W. WILLIAMSthought the House ought to be informed at what rate of interest the Exchequer Bills under consideration were to be reissued.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISsaid, the Vote he asked the Committee to come to did not at all bind them with regard to the interest, but merely related to the making good those Exchequer Bills which had been already issued.
MR. HUMEsaid, he would avail himself of the opportunity on the bringing up of the Report of the Committee, to ask for information respecting the rate of interest.
"Resolved—That a sum not exceeding 17,742,800 l. be granted to Her Majesty to pay off and discharge Exchequer Bills, charged on the Aids of 1852 unprovided for."
House resumed.

VENTILATION OF THE HOUSE.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE: Sir, the Motion of which I have given notice, to consider the evidence given by Dr. Reid, at the bar, relating to the ventilation of the House, may not be worthy of the attention that other subjects which come under the consideration of the House may demand; but I hope the House will consider the great wear and tear of constitution to which Members in the constant habit of attending this House are subject. When we consider the large per centage of Members who regularly attend their Parliamentary duties for six months in the year, I think I am entitled to some support in drawing their attention to this subject, and I trust that my Motion will meet with their approbation. It was said by the late Sidney Smith, with reference to the practice of locking up passengers in railway trains, that no attention would be given to that subject until some great dignitary of the Church was roasted in a railway carriage. I am of opinion that until some of the more robust Members who now occupy the Treasury benches are ventilated into another place, or some of the Members of the country party on the opposite side of the House are stifled, we shall have no remedy for the crying evils to which we are now subject. Now it has been proposed to send this subject to a Committee; but I am prepared to prove that the bad ventilation is neither attributable to Dr, Reid nor to Mr. Barry. The

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truth is, that all the mischief occasioned in this building has been entirely created by Committees of this House. They have undertaken subjects which they did not and could not understand. They have been unable to go into the details; and I very believe, if the building of this House and all the details had been referred to the House of Assembly in Jamaica, the matter would have been much better managed than it has been by Committees of this House. If hon. Gentlemen who were not in the House on Friday last, when Dr. Reid was examined, will look through the evidence which that gentleman gave, they will find that the defective arrangements with respect to ventilation all spring from one simple cause, namely, a divided authority. I will venture to quote to the House an opinion given on this very subject by one of the most remarkable men of the age—I mean the Duke of Wellington—who appears to be endowed with a faculty of universal application, and to be equally ready whether the subject be ventilation of a room or the conducting of a war. In 1846, the works in the building of the other House of Parliament came to a stoppage, and were actually suspended for ten months in consequence of a difference between Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry. On the 31st March, 1846, the Duke of Wellington warned the House of Lords not to enter into any proceedings on the ventilation of their chamber without there was a thorough understanding on the subject with this House. Their Lordships did not choose to act on that very sensible advice, and all the inconveniences from which we are now suffering arise from not attending to it. Dr. Reid's first complaint is, that he has not sufficient authority for the ventilation of this House. Now, I want to know how far Dr. Reid's authority does extend? It appears that his dominion only extends to the inner lobby, not to the outer lobby, nor to the libraries. It is abundantly clear, from his evidence, that the questions of ventilation and of lighting cannot he disunited. They are too intimately united to be placed under two different managements. Without entering into any detailed criticism as to the formation of this House, I will venture to say that the very first idea that would strike a foreigner on looking at the interior would be, that the edifice was built before the window tax was taken off, and that the windows were constructed merely for the purpose of evading that impost. But the
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deficiency of light in the interior is amply compensated for by a most abundant number of lights in the exterior of the House—a number that is sufficient to astonish any man. I took the opportunity last night of going upon the roof of the House in order to see the whole system of lighting. Dr. Reid informs me, that in the original plan by which he proposed to light this House, it was arranged that there should be no gas in the inside of the House at all; but that it should be entirely lighted from the outside. Now, I think we might remove these painted windows, which I take the liberty of saying on competent authority are bad in point of heraldry—mere daubs, as I believe, and more; for I go further—I believe that, having consulted a man rather eminent in optical science, it is a bad light for the eyes of the Members. It is an atmosphere of rainbows, in j the first place. What is the consequence? We are obliged, even in the morning sittings to have gas lighted. There is another question which arises from perusing the evidence of Dr. Reid. Hon. Members, perhaps, may be aware, that those two enormous towers, called the Victoria Tower and the Clock Tower, were originally intended to be used as channels for the ventilation of this House; but at present neither of them performs any such function. The Victoria Tower is prohibited from being used for that purpose, and in consequence of the state of the vaults under the Clock Tower, it is equally useless in that respect. These things have all been stated before, but they have never been remedied, for, of course, it was "nobody's business" to do so. [An Hon. MEMBER: The Woods and Forests.] The Commissioners of Woods and Forests deny that they have anything to do with it. Now, Sir, I do think the House should support me in carrying some resolutions which I shall submit to their notice. As to the present system of ventilation, the House may not be aware that there is a considerable leakage going on from the gas pipes connected with the House. Now, I am informed that the proportion of carbonic acid that escapes in the ordinary consumption of gas is as one in a thousand; whereas, in this House, the escape is one per cent: so that we are sitting in an atmosphere in which the carbonic acid gas is as one in a hundred, instead of one in a thousand. In fact, so oppressive was the state of the atmosphere last night, that my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), who can

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stand draughts of all sorts as well as most men, was obliged to leave the House, he was so oppressed with the state of the atmosphere. I, myself, also suffered severely: my eyesight was affected by the lights and by the tremendous draughts of cold air constantly coming in. At this moment, I will venture to say that the thermometer on the floor of the House shows a different result from that where I stand at present. In fact, last night I saw an experiment tried with regard to these lights. The thermometer in the gallery, with the light directly shining upon it, was a little above seventy degrees. We placed a hat before it, so as to intercept the rays of light, and in less than a quarter of an hour it fell considerably more than two degrees. That will give some idea of the effect of the light on Members sitting in the gallery. Now, having said this much with regard to the comfort, health, and convenience of the Members of this House, I think there is another party to be considered. We apportion a part of this House for the convenience of the public—I mean the strangers' gallery. Now I will take upon myself to say, that the strangers' gallery is one of the most abominable places of punishment that could possibly have been constructed. Sir, as to strangers sitting at the back of that gallery, it is impossible for them to see more of the House than yourself and four Members in your immediate neighbourhood on each side of the table. But there is another evil, greater than that. From the circumstance of their being on a level with these lights, the effect is, that the pupil of the eye becomes contracted to such a degree, that it is totally impossible for them to distinguish anybody. Sir, I thought I knew the respected Deputy Sergeant-at-Arms, Mr. Clementson. But, from the strangers' gallery, I could not recognise him; and, as to your own well-known features, I had the greatest difficulty in distinguishing them. I therefore, on the part of the public, call for some mitigation of these evils and inconveniences. I turn now, Sir, to those gentlemen of the press, those valuable members, as I may call them, who report our debates. I am satisfied that the health of these gentlemen and their eyesight will be seriously impaired, if not altogether destroyed, if the present system of ventilation and lighting be continued. I will go a step higher—to the ladies whom you have condemned to that miserable place yonder, which is
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something between a birdcage and a tea-caddy. The external decorations resemble the former, and, to my great astonishment, on visiting the place last night, I found that a partition, reminding me of the latter, had been run across the apartment, so as to render the dimensions of each compartment so small that the occupants would scarcely be able to breathe freely. I can only account for the appearance of the place by supposing that Mr. Barry, in his love for Gothic architecture and ideas, must have had some of the stories of Gothic monasteries in his mind, and contemplated on some future occasion the bricking up of some of these poor unfortunate ladies. No one can have any idea of the misery which those poor unlucky, ladies are called on to undergo in that miserable birdcage without going to see its interior arrangements. Now, in making these remarks, it is not my object to attack either Dr. Reid or Mr. Barry. I believe that both those gentlemen are most eminent in their respective lines. I do not take exception to the arrangements of both Houses; but the fault does not rest with Mr. Barry. Nobody has a right to complain of Mr. Barry; but everybody has a right to complain of the Committees of this House under whose directions those arrangements have been made. We have done the whole of the mischief, and we alone are responsible for it all. In a letter which I have received from Dr. Reid, he desires me to state to the House that he has no personal quarrel with Mr. Barry, and that his only difference with that gentleman has reference to scientific subjects. But I do not see why, because there is some difference between Mr. Barry and Dr. Reid, that we should be alternately roasted and boiled in this House. Dr. Reid said the other day, at the bar of this House, it was in his power to remove the lesser evil; and I think the House has a fair right to ask if he has done so. But I find that since the House met this very day, the powers which he had have been taken out of his hands, and that one side of the House is under one management, and the other side under another. Hon. Members will perceive that the lights on one side are differently arranged from those on the other, and I perceive that the lamp over the Treasury bench is still dripping a shower of water. The consequence is that the atmosphere is very disagreeably oppressive on one side of the House, whilst it is different on the other. But Dr. Reid has done something.

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In the first place, he has had the floors scraped, and a great quantity of oil, which was so obnoxious to breathe, taken off them. He has also had some offensive sewage water removed from the vaults. The gas lights have been removed from the division corridors because they wore not ventilated, and consequently acted injuriously on Members. The ventilation of the House has also been altered, so as to admit of the direct removal, at least, of all the leakage from the gas lights. That is what has been done; but at the same time it is a mere trifle, and something more is required to be done. Hon. Gentlemen will naturally ask, what more can be recommended? I feel myself perfectly convinced that we shall never have a proper state of the atmosphere in this House until you put the whole system of ventilating, lighting, and warming the House under one responsible head. I, myself, don't know sufficient of the merits of the question to say what should be done; but, I say, let there be one man to do it who understands the matter. I believe Dr. Reid to be a very able man, and one who perfectly understands the science of ventilation. Other Gentlemen may have their opinions upon that point; but all I urge on the House is to put the whole arrangement of ventilating, warming, and lighting under one authority. With regard to the subject of lighting, there have been extraordinary differences. The old House of Commons was not lighted by Dr. Reid, but by Mr. Gurney. The present House is lighted by Mr. Barry. Now, Mr. Barry may be a good architect, but I don't think he understands the subject of lighting. Dr. Reid is not allowed to go into the libraries. He is only allowed to come into this House to ventilate, and not to have anything to do with the lighting. I believe a Committee would only obfuscate the matter; and therefore it is that I would propose the Resolutions of which I have given notice.
SIR J. PAKINGTONsaid, he rose to second the Resolution which had been proposed by his hon. Friend, to whom, he thought, the House ought to be much obliged for the pains he had bestowed on this subject. But he thought his hon. Friend had fallen into two mistakes. In the first place he talked of the prospective fate of the robust Members of this House if the present state of things was continued; but he (Sir J. Pakington) was of opinion that if the present system of lighting and ventilating was not changed,
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there would soon be no Members at all in the House. Again, his hon. Friend supposed a foreigner, on visiting the House, coming to the conclusion that it had been constructed with a, view to evade the window tax; but he (Sir J. Pakington) could not understand that the window tax would have been imposed on windows that gave no light. Whatever might be the differences between Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry, for whoso abilities he entertained the highest respect, he must say that, looking at what Dr. Reid had done for them in the old House of Commons, that gentleman was entitled to very great credit from the Members of this House. He (Sir J. Pakington) never in his life entered any room the temperature of which was more admirably regulated throughout the different seasons of the year than in the old House of Commons. He had watched the thermometer in the old House, at the back of Mr. Speaker's chair, at intervals, both in January and in June, and he did nnt remember to have seen it vary to the extent of four degrees above or below 64 degrees. From the experience which hon. Members had had of the present House during the last three or four days, he thought it utterly impossible they could attend to their duties in it unless some change took place, He was of opinion, with their old friend Sir Frederick Trench, that there was no light equal to that given by wax candles, but hoped, if they were to continue the system of gas lighting, that some very decided improvements would be made in the present system.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That Dr. Reid be authorised to complete such temporary arrangements as are imperatively necessary at present for the maintenance of a better atmosphere during the Sittings of the House."
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he could not but admit that the ventilation of the House was very imperfect, and the lighting also; but the best thing they could do was not to inquire into the original cause of the evils, but into the mode by which those evils wore to be remedied. As for himself, he had had nothing to do with the arrangements of the House until November last; and so long ago as 1846 it was decided that Dr. Reid should ventilate the House of Commons, but that the rest of the building should be left to Mr. Barry, who had been selected by the House of Lords to ventilate their House, in which he supposed the House of Commons could not interfere. He found that they had

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already expended on that House, for Dr. Reid's system of ventilation, 46,000 l.; and, having expended so much before the year 1846, it was proposed that a great part of this ventilation should be abandoned, and the rest of it made applicable, as far as possible, to the remainder of the House. He found that, in addition, there had been further sums expended for the same object, which made the whole sum spent by Dr. Reid 57,800 l. Besides that, they had given Dr. Reid a staff which cost 1,300 l. a year, exclusive of three temporary assistants, who were granted to aid him. Dr. Reid came to him some time ago, and said he was totally unable to go on unless he had the assistance of three assistant engineers; and accordingly he had them. Before the Session commenced, he (Lord Seymour) came down to look in what condition the House was. The first thing he saw was a powerful steam-engine, which was required for some purpose connected with the ventilation, but which, Dr. Reid told him, would not answer its purpose; and when this engine was at work it made such a noise that it would have been difficult for any Member, to make himself audible. He was, therefore, obliged to send to Liverpool at once to order another steam-engine to effect the purpose Dr. Reid required, with less amount of noise. On that occasion he thought it desirable to see the lighting and ventilation at work, for he had some doubt in his own mind whether the ventilation would not put out the lights. He had not been long in the House before some firemen rushed in to ask if the new palace was on fire. The shaft Dr. Reid had erected gave out such a great heat, and threw forth such showers of sparks, that the firemen came in alarm to ask if the House was burning. He confessed he was considerably alarmed, too; and he told the men employed and the clerks of the works that they should not leave the place, for he had no security that a conflagration would not ensue. It was now proposed, rightly as he thought, that the ventilation and lighting should be placed in the same hands. The ventilation was put under the care of Dr. Reid, and he had been paid under the impression that he was superintending the lighting; but he (Lord Seymour) found, on inquiry, that that gentleman had had nothing to do with it, but that a short time before the House met, Mr. Faraday had been employed under Mr. Barry in arranging the lighting. He
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(Lord Seymour) believed that if he had interfered in these arrangements, they would have had no lights at all, and he therefore had left the lighting under Mr. Faraday, acting under Mr. Barry. As to the system of ventilation they had heard a good deal of complaint with regard to the drains and the state of the air channels through which the supply of air was borne. He could only say he believed every arrangement Dr. Reid had put on paper, and had sent in to Mr. Barry, had been complied with. Now, he really wished to state the case between Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry fairly. The point he desired to put was this: Had any requisition been made by Dr. Reid to Mr. Barry on paper which had not been complied with? He found nothing but general statements on the other side, which went to this, that Dr. Reid required more authority and greater powers; but he could not find any statement of anything Dr. Reid had asked to be done which had not been done. He had also gone carefully through the system of ventilation established by Dr. Reid. He found, first, a chamber where the air was mixed; next, there was a larger equalising chamber where the air was brought in. The air was brought down from the top of the Clock tower. It was then taken nine feet below the level of the Thames, and there it was let loose into a large and spacious vault, which, from its position, was of necessity near a number of drains. The air passed through channels which were built up with moist damp walls, and in the neighbourhood of drains protected with pavement and cement. Although he did not profess to be acquainted with the science of ventilation, or would venture to express an opinion as to the best mode of treating air required for the refreshment of the House, still he could not but feel that keeping air enclosed in damp cellars, nine feet below the level of the Thames, did not tend greatly to improve either its sweetness or salubrity. When the House met last, he asked Dr. Reid to give in a statement of what he wanted done, and he made out a list of alterations which he said would not cost more than 300 l., which was sent in next day. The things he required to be done were, clearing the vaults and repairing the centre vault, the pavement of which had been broken by the removal of the heavy machinery Dr. Reid had brought there, and other small matters to which he need not refer. As to

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the removal of the products of combustion of lights in the corridors, he (Lord Seymour) had met that by dispensing with gas, and substituting wax candles, that hon. Members might not be troubled by the escape of gas. He had also ordered the people to put doors where they could, and in other places to put up large curtains, which Dr. Reid said would answer equally well. But hon. Members must see that all these precautions were very imperfect in a House with large passages and halls between it and the House of Lords, unless the ventilation of the whole was placed under one person. When certain demands were made on Dr. Reid, he said he was a medical man, and not competent to express an opinion upon architectural questions, and that not being an engineer he was equally incompetent to decide upon questions of machinery. It was evident, therefore, Dr. Reid could not exercise the sole control which was desirable, because he must be bound by the acts of others, over whom be could, as a medical man, have no power. He had sent to Mr. Barry to know if all Dr. Reid had required in his paper had been done, and found it had, except furnishing transverse and longitudinal sections of the drains under the House, which would require time to make, and the omission of which was not of so much consequence, as it would necessarily take time to make the required alterations. The real question was, what they would do for the future, and under whom they should place the ventilation of the House? If they were to place the ventilation of the House and of the lobbies under the same person, they must remember that there were pipes laid down in connexion with the portion of the building under Mr. Barry's control. Mr. Barry had a long room where he warmed the air; if they took away one-half of the building, and put it under the management of Dr. Reid, they must reverse all this machinery, they must alter these connexions, and build and make fresh ones, so as to do what Dr. Reid required. They must remember this was not like the old House, which was detached from the rest of the building, so that it could be ventilated by itself. If they wished to detach this building in the same way, they must alter the existing system altogether at a great expense. [Mr. HUME: How much has Mr. Barry spent?] Mr. Barry had spent about 150,000 l. But this sum included works done and buildings erected for Dr. Reid; they must remember Mr. Barry was
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architect as well as ventilator, and he could furnish them with the whole expense of what he had done; whereas Dr. Reid could only give them the actual expense of ventilation under his orders, unconnected with the sums laid out on building. Between the two about 200,000 l. would have been spent on the very imperfect ventilation of the Houses of Parliament, whenever the works shall have been completed according to the estimates. He thought that the best mode of extricating the House from its present difficulty would be for it to appoint some competent engineer, who would be above any suspicion of partiality towards one side or the other, who would inform them what would be the best course to pursue. He would recommend the House not to agree to the Resolution of the hon. Member for Middlesex as it then stood, but refer it either to the Office of which he was the head, or, as he had suggested, to some person competent to give an opinion upon the subject. If they decided upon referring it to his department, he would be willing to undertake any trouble which the task might impose upon him, and endeavour, by such assistance as he might consider it advisable to call to his aid, to extricate the House from its present difficult position.
MR. HENRY DRUMMONDsaid, the matter was shortly this: Mr. Barry had spent 150,000 l., and had done nothing but mischief. The other man (Dr. Reid) had spent 57,000 l., and had not done as much as had been expected. The question was, whether it was possible to ventilate that room without having all the doors and passages under one control. That was not so difficult a question in science as it was for the interest of those gentlemen to make out. Each hon. Member consumed four cubic feet of air per minute, which would give about 2,400 cubic feet as the amount required for the consumption of the House. They must have that air fresh, and they must get rid of it from the House after it had been used—they must get into the House properly warmed air, and they must not warm it by the heat of their bodies. He would leave it to any Members if they ever knew a house in the country in which the halls and passages were not damp and cold in winter, so that persons ran shivering through them into the warmed rooms. The fact was, there never yet was an architect (and he had had a pretty extensive experience of them, from Mr. Wilkins downwards) who knew anything of ventilation. He thought

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they could not do better than give the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) a carte blanche to deal as he thought best with the question.
MR. BOOKERconsidered that the House was under great obligations to the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne) for the attention which he had paid to the subject. He (Mr. Booker) thought the people of England would be satisfied by the statement of the noble Lord that the House of Commons had been guilty of gross and profligate expenditure of the public money with very little result. The suggestion of the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) was an exceedingly valuable one. He (Mr. Booker) was perfectly willing to leave the subject in his hands, and considered that he might derive great assistance from the valuable suggestions which might be obtained from the present learned and able director of the Museum of Geology, Sir Henry De la Beche, who had paid great attention to the subject of ventilation.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, that ventilation made no portion of the science of geology, and that therefore Sir Henry De la Beche, whatever his acquirements as a scientific man and a geologist, would not be the most proper person to decide what was best to be done. The ventilation of the Museum of Practical Geology was by no means perfect. Dr. Reid had, at all events, kept his promise in ventilating the old House. He recommended the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Osborne) to adhere to his Motion, and to call on Dr. Reid to make a statement of what he was prepared to do.
CAPTAIN FITZROYsaid, that when the question was last before the House, he was of opinion the examination of Dr. Reid would leave them just where they had been, and in that opinion he was now confirmed. It was necessarily an ex parte statement of what he could accomplish, and they had no guarantee the result he asserted would be arrived at. He would not press the appointment of the Committee against the feeling of the House, but would move, as an Amendment to the hon. Member's Motion, that the whole matter of ventilation, lighting, and warming should be referred to the head of the Board of Works, so as to rest all the responsibility on him, without associating in it any hon. Member of the House.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "the
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ventilation, warming, and lighting of this House be referred to the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works," instead thereof.
SIR ROBERT H. INGLISsaid, he should willingly second the Amendment. He was strongly convinced the House was not a proper tribunal to decide whether Mr. Barry or Dr. Reid should have the new palace, or a portion of it, placed irrevocably in his hands; and that the claims of the architect had not been sufficiently represented, for, though no words of disrespect had been used towards his character, there had been a very strong expression of feeling with regard to his rival. The House had certainly now a right to say they would consider their own convenience. The noble Lord the First Commissioner of the Board of Works might reflect whether it would not be better to get rid of the windows which gave no light. He would say nothing of the passages which led to nothing; but the object of windows was to give light, and, in his opinion, it would be far preferable to exclude the daylight, and have artificial light during their day sittings, than to deliberate in the artificial darkness which those windows created. When he considered the expense which the House had sanctioned in ventilation, without saying anything of warming and lighting, he felt that, whether as Committees or as an aggregate body, they would feel nothing but regret for the past. There had been no returns moved for. [Mr. HUME: Yes, I called for them.] Spirits from the vasty deep might be called; but would they come? No such returns had been made; and it must have struck the conscience of every man in that House that he had sanctioned such expenditure without inquiry. It would be best now to leave the matter to the despotic authority of the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) without any associate. Before he sat down he thought it right to say, that whatever the merits of the Mr. Faraday, mentioned by Lord Seymour, he was not the eminent Professor Faraday whose name was so well known to the world. He had every confidence in the noble Lord at the head of the Board of Works, who, during the short period which he had occupied his present position, had shown so much ability and attention to the duties of his office, and he would cordially recommend the House to leave the matter entirely in his hands.
MR. ROCHErejoiced the House had taken the matter into its own hands, and

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had called Dr. Reid to the bar. The whole cause of the state they were in was, that Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry had been continually at loggerheads, and he was not sure but that the best thing they could do would be to dismiss them both.
MR. T. GREENEfelt it due to Mr. Barry and Dr. Reid to state, that the expenditure had been to a great degree on other parts of the House, in the Committee-rooms, corridors, and lobbies, and in eluded gas, fuel, steam, and assistants. He hoped the House would not hastily come to the conclusion that they would accede to the proposal made by the hon. Member opposite, but that they would leave the matter in the hands of the noble Lord at the head of the Board of Works, who had the same interest as every other hon. Gentleman in making the ventilation as perfect as possible, and who had every means of examining the subject carefully.
LORD HARRY VANEhoped the House would confide in the noble Lord (Lord Seymour), and not tie him down to the employment of any particular person, but place the full and entire management under him, so that he might consult whomsoever he thought fit. He agreed entirely with the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne) in thinking that the ventilation and the lighting of the House should be placed under the same authority.
MR. HUMEsaid, the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) had expressed himself as entirely of opinion that the lighting and ventilation should be under one management. Now, that was just the effect of his hon. Friend's Resolution, which did not bind the noble Lord to any particular course; and he thought, therefore, it would be well for the House to agree to the Motion. It would be found that in 1845 and 1847 he objected to the whole course taken by the Government with regard to the new House, and he then advised that two individuals should he made responsible in carrying out the building, and that it should not be left to the authority of the First Commissioner of the Board of Works, who changed with every Administration, and had not time to attend to the duties. The consequence of the neglect of this advice might be seen in the extraordinary expenditure which they had heard that night. He should, tomorrow, ask the House to direct a return to be made, which would show the gross mismanagement that had prevailed from first to last in the building. He would not say so much upon the subject if he had
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not been one of the original Committee before whom Mr. Barry had been examined, when he (Mr. Hume) proved that that gentleman knew nothing about his own plans. As to the dispute existing between Mr. Barry and Dr. Reid, he had two years and a half ago taken the sense of the House on that subject; and he said then that it was disgraceful to allow that dispute—that no private individual would have allowed it if they had been in his employ; and he took the sense of the House as to whether it would not be advisable to remove both the architect and the ventilator. He entirely agreed with hon. Members in thinking that one individual should be made responsible for both the ventilation and the lighting. He hoped, therefore, his hon. Friend (Mr. B. Osborne's) Resolution would be agreed to, and that then it should be left to the noble Lord to call in what counsel he thought fit.
MR. PACKEthought it must be very clear, from the statement made by the noble Lord (Lord Seymour), that the large expenditure which he had mentioned was attributable to there not having been a written agreement with those who had been intrusted with the carrying out of the building.
COLONEL SIBTHORPalways suspected what would become of matters intrusted to the head of the Board of Works; the fate of the marble arch had taught him to distrust that department. Supposing the Government were to be turned out, as he hoped they would be before long, who was to be responsible then, and what would become of the House?
MR. COWANwished to call the attention of the House to an extract from a foreign journal, containing an account of a number of experiments on the subject of ventilation, which had been very striking in their results. The machine made use of was capable of producing ten times the fresh air which he believed was necessary for the supply of the House; and he should be most happy to communicate with the noble Lord (Lord Seymour), if the matter were placed in his hands. The extract to which he referred also contained some valuable hints as to the ventilation of mines and collieries.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE, in reply, said, that one statement made by the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works was not exactly true as regarded Dr. Reid. The noble Lord stated that 57,000 l. had been spent by that gentleman in ventila-

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tion; but this was expressly denied by Dr. Reid, who said that since 1842 Mr. Barry had refused to give him any estimate of the expense of carrying out his plans, so that when this sum of 57,000 l. was mentioned it was not known how much of it was expended in Dr. Reid's necessary apparatus, or how much in Mr. Barry's mode of applying it. From the ex parte statement made by the noble Lord, it was evident that the First Commissioner of Public Works was very liable to be influenced by the architect; and what security had they that the noble Lord (Lord Seymour) would not deprive them of the services of Dr. Reid (who had certainly ventilated the old House very well), and intrust it to Mr. Barry, whose ventilation of the House of Lords was abominable? He should, therefore, if he met with the support of the House, press his Resolutions to a division. He would be very happy to take upon himself, if Dr. Reid were allowed the temporary management of the ventilation, the responsibility that a pure and healthy atmosphere should be produced in that House; and he thought it a much more sensible plan if, instead of consulting some other person, who might perhaps suggest expensive alterations in the apparatus already fixed by Dr. Reid, that gentleman was called upon to enter into a bond, or to lay upon the table of the House exact estimates of what he proposed. Meanwhile, however, the health of hon. Members was being ruined. Ten years seemed almost added to some of their lives in one night—[Laughter]—but at any rate many hon. Members were suffering most acutely from the present ventilation. He almost fancied he saw many of his respected friends growing old under his eyes. He, for one, would be no party to any arrangement with Mr. Barry.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, his hon. Friend seemed to think that he had been uncharitable to Dr. Reid in what he had stated. Now, the figures which he had quoted had been taken from a printed paper laid before the House on the 14th of August, 1850 [Parliamentary Papers, No. 650], to which, as far as he knew, no answer had been given; and he did not imagine that in reading from this statement he had offered any opinion which could be deemed uncharitable.
Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 96; Noes 68: Majority 28.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
"1. Resolved—That Dr. Reid be authorised to complete such temporary arrangements as are imperatively necessary at present for the maintenance of a better atmosphere during the Sittings of the House.
"2. Resolved—That the warming, lighting, and ventilating of the House of Commons, and its Libraries, shall be placed under one responsible authority."
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That Dr. Reid be called upon to submit forthwith, a full Report of all the measures he considers essential for the health and comfort of the House, together with an Estimate of the probable expense, and the time which he would require for the execution of the works; also, to state specially what plan he would propose for the lighting of the House."
Amendment proposed, after the word "forthwith," to insert the words, "to the First Commissioner of Works."—[Mr. Goulburn.]
Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and agreed to.
Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
"3. Resolved—That Dr. Reid be called upon to submit forthwith to the First Commissioner of Works, a full Report of all the measures he considers essential for the health and comfort of the House, together with an Estimate of the probable expense, and the time which he would require for the execution of the works; also, to state specially what plan he would propose for the lighting of the House."

POOR EMPLOYMENT (IRELAND).
COLONEL DUNNEmoved for a return of all Works, the execution of which were undertaken by the Board of Works, on the authority of the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury, under the Act 9 & 10 Vict., c. 107, and of the certificates given, according to the 8th section of the said Act, to the Secretaries of Grand Juries in Ireland, of the execution of such Works. He had another Motion on the paper for a return of the amounts claimed from each electoral division on account of sums asserted to be due for the repayment of advances; but as the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had promised to give it, he would abstain from now moving for it.
MR. ROCHEseconded the Motion. What the Irish Members required was a clear bill of particulars with regard to the money advanced during the late famine. They had been charged with repudiation, and with acting an ungrateful part to the Parliament and people of Great Britain; but they only wanted to make it clear what Ireland had actually received. If it should

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be found that a great deal of the money debited to the people of that country had never been received by them, and that they had never been benefited by it, it was necessary to know where it had gone to. If by neglect or design there should appear to have been some confusion of accounts or some juggle, nothing was more natural than that the Irish Members should wish to show that the deceit or juggle had been none of theirs. He did not know more than one or two Unions that went the length of repudiating these debts altogether. But nothing was more monstrous and unfortunate than the manner in which the money was laid out, and this was done in spite of the remonstrances of every man connected with Ireland. It was, in fact, robbing the people of England without benefiting the people of Ireland. What the Irish Members said, therefore, was, "Don't saddle us with the responsibility of that expenditure now."
MR. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCHregretted that the hon. Gentleman had not called for returns of the works commenced under the Act passed by Sir Robert Peel's Administration, the 9 & 10 Vict., c. 1, which renewed the 1 & 2 Vict., c. 21.
SIR L. O'BRIENsaid, the mistake arose from calling these "works." They were not works at all; it was a mere clumsy machinery for distributing money among a starving population, which money the people of Ireland were now called upon to repay. The House was no doubt under the impression that value had been given for this money. Some lives were no doubt preserved during the famine; but let the House consider on whom the responsibility of saving those lives fell. The Government wished to throw the responsibility of repaying this money upon the gentry and landed proprietary, who did their utmost during the famine, and whose estates at the time of the famine were taxed as high as they could possibly bear. What further responsibility remained belonged to Parliament and to the Government. The landed proprietors of Ireland might be responsible in terms, but he did not think they were morally responsible for one farthing of this debt.
MR. NAPIERknew of a case in Armagh which showed the necessity and importance of these returns being made. The Irish Members had a right to see the particulars of these works, that they might know what works were executed by the Board of Works, and what sums were
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expended without finishing the works at all for which they were advanced.
Returns ordered.
The House adjourned at a quarter after Five o'clock.