Sitting of 4 February 1852

WOODS AND FORESTS REPORT FOR 1851.
VISCOUNT DUNCANwished to put a question to the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests (Lord Seymour). In explanation, he should observe that the annual Report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to Parliament had generally received the signatures of all the three Commissioners; but the last report of July 30, 1851, had received only the signatures of two out of the three Commissioners. He asked, therefore, if all the three Commissioners concurred in sanctioning all the statements made in the last annual Report, and placed in the hands of Members of Parliament in December of that year; and if so, why that Report had been signed only by two instead of three Commissioners. He wished, in fact, to know if the Report had been submitted to Mr. Kennedy, and bad his concurrence?
LORD SEYMOURwished first to correct his noble Friend as to the title he had given him (Lord Seymour), namely, the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests. In consequence of the separation of offices by the Act of last Session, he was no longer Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, though he still continued Chief Commissioner of Works and Buildings. With respect to the signature of the Report by two Commissioners only, his noble Friend might have been aware that it was not necessary for all three Commissioners to sign any Report to the Treasury. Two signatures had always been sufficient, though he would readily admit that it was usual for all three to sign the Reports

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before they were presented to Parliament. In this case, however, Mr. Kennedy had not signed the Report, and for this reason, that he was not a member of the Commission until nearly six months of the year to which it referred had elapsed, and therefore, of course, it was not reasonable to make him, further than need be, responsible for the Report, with which he had very little to do, having just resigned the former office he held in Ireland. He had, however, as the noble Lord would see, signed the account of income and expenditure at the end of the Report; and this was, in fact, the essential part of the Report. With respect to the other point, whether or not the Report was submitted to Mr. Kennedy, he believed there were some passages in the Report in which Mr. Kennedy did not perfectly coincide; and on that account, and as he had very little to do with the arrangements, it was thought unnecessary to call upon him to sign the Report.
VISCOUNT DUNCANwould then give notice, that on Thursday week he should move for any minutes of papers which would explain the reason why Mr. Kennedy had abstained from submitting his signature to the annual Report of the 30th of July, 1851.

THE AFFAIRS OF THE CAPE.
MR. ADDERLEYbegged to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether a petition had been received at the Colonial Office from Inhabitants of the Cape to Her Majesty, praying Her to refuse Her assent to Ordinances passed by the reconstructed Legislative Council previously to proceeding with their new Constitution; also, whether he will lay copies of all such ordinances immediately before this House? He also wished to know whether a petition had been received, praying Her Majesty to expedite the construction of the Constitution, and to refuse Her sanction to any alteration, on the part of the Legislative Council, in the constitutional Ordinances; and whether there would be any objection to produce such Ordinances, together with any resolutions for altering them which might have been passed.
MR. F. PEELreplied, that a petition signed by two persons had been received, praying Her Majesty not to sanction any Ordinances, except such as were necessary to carry out the constitution. There would be no objection to lay copies of the Ordi-
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nances on the table. The other petition to which the hon. Member referred was included in the papers on the table.
MR. ROEBUCKasked whether the two persons who had signed the petition were not the chairman and secretary of a public meeting?
MR. F. PEELsaid, he knew one was chairman of Cape Town Assembly, and the other a commissioner of Cape Town; but he was not aware whether they signed on behalf of any public bodies.

METROPOLIS BUILDINGS BILL.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, perhaps the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works and Buildings would be good enough to inform the House what course he intended to take with respect to the Metropolis Buildings Bill, laid on the table at the close of last Session, and whether he intended to persevere with it?
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he had brought in the Bill with the view of obtaining the opinions of the public regarding it; and he meant again to introduce the Bill in the present Session, in order that it might be referred to a Committee, with the view of obtaining such information as was not to be procured in any other way.

NEW METROPOLITAN MARKET.
CAPTAIN FITZROYwished to know if the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department could state what proceedings were intended to be taken under the Act of last Session, in reference to the construction of a new cattle market for the metropolis in place of Smithfield? He believed that the interval of six months allowed by the Act of last Session before the choice should be made, had now expired?
SIR GEORGE GREYbegged to state that, on the 29th of January, the day before the expiration of the six months allowed by law, he had received formal notice from the Corporation of London that they desired to undertake the formation of a new metropolitan market, and to defray the expenses incidental to such formation out of their corporate funds.
CAPTAIN FITZROYwished to know whether another Act would be necessary?
SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he had no reason to believe that the Corporation would apply for any new Bill, so far at least as powers for holding the new market were concerned. The Act gave certain powers to the Commissioners that Her

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Majesty was empowered to appoint, and it was provided that, if the Corporation accepted the option of carrying it out themselves, those powers should be transferred to them. Of course an Act would be necessary for the purchase of a site for the market, because the late Act did not provide for that.

THE STANDING ORDERS.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISmoved the usual Sessional Orders.
MR. SPEAKERaccordingly read them seriatim.
On the Order respecting Votes in Committee of Supply,
MR. HUMEproposed to add to the Standing Orders, "and that no Vote for money be taken in Committee after midnight." During the last four or five Sessions a practice had gained ground of money being voted when the House was almost empty, at a period when nobody expected that any question of importance could possibly come on. It was not so much the fear of abuses being committed under such circumstances, which would be checked in the presence of a larger number of Members, which induced him to make this proposition, as the fear of the appearance it would have with the country, if they adhered to their ordinary course in this matter. He was anxious that a fixed rule on this subject should be laid down and adopted, because it was extremely inconvenient, when the money votes came on, for any man to rise and oppose a vote. When the Tories were in office for twelve or fourteen years, he had never allowed a single farthing to pass after twelve o'clock. He had been blamed for relaxing his insistence on that rule; and, thinking that equal justice should be done to both parties, he hoped the House would agree to his proposal.
Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
COLONEL SIBTHORPmost cordially agreed with what had fallen from the hon. Member for Montrose. He had seen public money voted away when only fifteen Members were present, and some of them asleep on the benches. He thought, therefore, it was high time that some step should be taken, and he, for one, would always be happy to oppose any attempt at abuse in this respect by Ministers.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWIStrusted the House would not agree to the Amendment of his hon. Friend. He was afraid
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serious inconvenience might ensue if they laid down an inflexible rule that no vote of public money should be taken after twelve o'clock, and he did not think that any inconvenience had been experienced from the present practice such as would justify them in laying down such a rule. The usual course was, that no money votes were moved by Government after twelve o'clock. Occasionally it might happen that a few votes were taken after twelve o'clock; but that was done only with the approbation of the House, and when any strong objection was taken they were withdrawn. Under these circumstances it seemed hardly advisable, after so many years experience in Committees of Supply, to apply this inconvenient restriction by a sessional order. With respect to the complaint of his hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), that votes were often taken when forty Members were not present, it was only necessary to remark that it was competent to any Member who objected, to have the House counted, and it would then be impossible to proceed with the vote.
MR. HUMEsaid, that no doubt cases might occur which it would be desirable to treat as exceptions to the general rule which he wished to be laid down, and then the standing order could be suspended, as in similar instances.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Another Amendment proposed, at the end of the Question, to add the words, "and that no new Vote for Public Money, if opposed, be taken after twelve o'clock at night."
MR. BROTHERTONsupported the Motion. He stated at the same time, that as he could not expect that if the House negatived the present Motion they would agree to that which he had given notice (that the Speaker should leave the chair at twelve o'clock), he would not in that case bring forward his resolution.
House divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 146: Majority 82.
Main Question put, and agreed to.

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH—REPORT OF ADDRESS.
The Report of the Committee appointed to prepare an Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne brought up and read.
MR. HUMEsaid, that upon the previous evening he was unfortunately unable to make any remarks upon the Address, as in consequence of the state of the atmosphere in the House he was obliged to

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leave it at eleven o'clock. He wondered what the Sanitary Board were doing that they did not consider the health of Members of Parliament, for he believed that there was no place worse ventilated than that House, while there was none so situated that more danger would arise from Members going out from the heated atmosphere. He did not know whether any register was kept of the heat of the House, but everybody about him was exceedingly oppressed on the previous evening. It was indeed an unsatisfactory result if they had paid a million and a half for a House too small to hold them, and too hot for them to remain in. Not satisfied, too, with heating the inside of the House, the architect had placed lamps outside the windows to light up a set of figures like the red lion of Brentford, and some which seemed to be monstrosities such as had never been known. Whether that was the taste of the Woods and Forests or not, he did not know. He had no objections but two to these monstrous figures—these daubs most disgraceful to the eye—one, that they kept out the daylight in the day; and the other, that in the night, a light being kept on the outside, the air was rarefied and thrown back into the House, and thus its temperature was most unpleasantly elevated. The lamps with which the House had been filled were certainly unique, and were said to be in the style of the middle ages; but why we should go back to that time, and not profit by the experience we had since gained for the improvement of our lamps, he could not tell. But he did entreat Her Majesty's Government to take the management of these affairs into their own hands. Two years ago he had moved that Mr. Barry should be removed from the conduct of the building, in the same way as Mr. Nash had been removed from the building of Buckingham Palace. From the moment that was done all went well, and the expense was kept within the estimate. The House ought not to retain an architect who was changing his plans from day to day; and now that after all the delays that had taken place they had got into the House, it looked more like a county court than a hall calculated for the Commons of England. He did hope that if they were to be squeezed into its narrow limits, they might at least be supplied with cool air. He would also submit that the plan adopted in drawing for Members to go to the other House required some alteration; for
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the present plan evidently had not answered the purpose desired either last year or on the previous day. As the architect had built the other House not capable of receiving the House of Commons, he would submit that when it was again necessary that they should go up, it should be ascertained how many Members the space below the bar of the other House would contain, and that they would then choose by lot who should accompany Mr. Speaker, and that they would thus avoid the race which took place on the previous day. The passage, which was floored with marble and tiles, was a source of great danger on such occasions; and indeed he feared that, unless great caution were used, some hon. Member might receive injury from a fall on its smooth surface. There was very little which he could object to in the Speech; but there were some deficiencies which he wished had been filled up. In former years the noble Lord at the head of the Government had had a difficult task. He had found himself supported very unwillingly by his former friends, with a strong opposing force against him; and he had, therefore, been obliged to take measures to steer, if possible, between these two parties. He (Mr. Hume) did not, therefore, expect from the noble Lord any great promises, especially as the promises made in former years had not been fulfilled. At the same time he must say that the country looked up to the noble Lord for those improvements which were capable of being made in our representative system, at a time when general contentment prevailed, and those changes could be made with great propriety and safety—changes the effect of which would be to improve our institutions, and to make the House of Commons a full and fair representation of the Commons of England. It was on that ground that he thought the noble Lord had acted wisely in giving notice of his intention to introduce a measure for the reform of the representation; and he believed that the noble Lord would carry out well the duty which he had undertaken. No man in the House knew better than he what were the principles of the British constitution, nor what would give satisfaction to the people; and he (Mr. Hume) therefore hoped that the noble Lord would induce his friends to support that which he deemed fitting. The hon. Mover of the Address in a very fair, distinct, and manly speech—and one that did him great credit—had stated his views

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in regard to the extension of the suffrage. In his opinions respecting the franchise, he (Mr. Hume) hoped that the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) coincided. He, for one, desired no more than what the hon. Baronet had stated was in his opinion a desirable extension. He was sorry, however, that the hon. Mover objected to a measure which he (Mr. Hume) considered necessary to put an end to bribery and corruption. Without protection to the voter, the extension of the suffrage would not answer the purpose which every person anxious for the prosperity of the country should desire. He was sorry to see that a large class of influential and rich men did not give that support to the extension of the suffrage that they should do. It was possible that many persons might suppose that he (Mr. Hume) and others went too far; they might be afraid of overturning that constitution which had stood so many trials, and which, he trusted, would stand still greater trials, if necessary; but he (Mr. Hume) felt convinced that every proprietor of property, and every individual who desired to see peace maintained in the country, ought to take measures while contentment existed in the country to do that which is just and right to the working and middle classes of the country, and not wait until it was demanded by the force of public opinion. Those who contributed to the taxes ought to be placed in a situation where they would have a share in the enactment of those laws and the granting of those taxes that are necessary for the existence of the State. He dreaded the consequences that might occur if a mass of discontented artisans should by any possibility, under a change of circumstances, be deprived of employment. He remembered what had occurred in 1842 and 1843, when half a million or three quarters of a million were driven out of work. To what did they direct their attention? Immediately to the defects of the public institutions. Looking to the conduct of those classes during the Exhibition of the Crystal Palace, was it fair and just to say that men who could conduct themselves with so much propriety were not entitled to have the suffrage, or to be placed in their proper position as citizens of the State? At present they were without a voice in the representation; and what interest could they have in a Government that gave them no share of power, but took the money from their pockets, and expended it without giving
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them any share in making the laws by which they are governed? Younger men than he was might live to witness changes in their commercial system that would bring back a period equally lamentable and injurious to the working classes as the years 1842 and 1843. Let the noble Lord now prepare for the storm by giving to every; individual who contributes to the poor-rates and pays direct taxes, and can be recognised as a taxed householder, privileges; that will distinguish him from the vagrants who have no stake in the country. Let the noble Lord enlist under the banners of the constitution those who are now excluded from any portion of the representation. Let the noble Lord take one of the great manufactories in Leeds or Manchester, where 400 or 500 skilled artisans are employed, and he will find that scarcely one man in a hundred of that class has a vote. Could it be expected that an individual so situated, when the time came, would take an interest in supporting their institutions? Promises had been made to I them in other matters which were not carried out; but he hoped that in this case I there would be a just extension of the suffrage, and due protection given to the voter in the exercise of it. He hoped to obtain from the noble Lord much more than he had foreshadowed, for it was protection against the mob that was wanted, as well as protection against the rich. He must express his regret that the promises which had been held out that the colonial system was to be changed, and self-government given to the different colonies, were not fulfilled. The Session passed over; there was an Order in Council with regard to the Cape, and everything he could wish had passed the House; but what was the use of its passing the House when the Minister for the Colonies prevented them from being carried out? There was not one of their Colonies, so far as he knew, that was not at that moment dissatisfied and discontented. He regretted that the noble Lord, in the Speech, had stated no intention of carrying out his general colonial reform. He had noticed only New Zealand, and he (Mr. Hume) conceived that this notice of one alone meant that it was the only colony where he intended to carry out a measure of reform. In Australia and other Colonies reforms were necessary, and combinations had occurred in different places to effect that object. Therefore he regretted that the noble Lord had not thought fit to intro-

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duce some paragraph in the Speech promising the reform which in former years it was stated should be granted. They should also have had a paragraph in the Speech recommending the carrying out of free trade. He admitted that the agricultural interest had grounds for complaint, not because they had protection taken from them, but because, when protection was taken from them, they had a right to expect the removal of protection from all classes. That had not been done. He recommended hon. Members to look to the returns laid upon the table of the House last Session, which showed all the protective duties that remain. It would be seen that upwards of 400,000 l. a year were still levied as protective duties, inconsistently with the pledge that had been made by Sir Robert Peel, and the statement of the noble Lord himself. All these restrictions ought to be removed, and the landed interest ought to have all the benefits they were entitled to. He considered the continuance of the income and property tax as the means by which Her Majesty's Government would be enabled to remove all this protection. The income and property tax, properly levied, and not as heretofore, unjustly and unfairly, were necessary to enable the Government to remove the restrictions on manufactures, and to place them on the same footing as the agricultural interest. He looked upon the removal of all restrictions upon the commerce of this country, both agricultural and manufacturing, as of vital importance to the welfare of the country. He could assure the noble Lord that he would not carry out the wishes and plans of Sir Robert Peel, or his own promises, if he did not take measures for the removal of the restrictions that exist upon many articles. The country gentlemen and owners of property in this country would have to pay their share of the expense of 100,000 l. or 200,000 l. a day for continuing the war in Kafraria. When he (Mr. Hume) proposed, last year, to give the inhabitants of that colony the management of their own affairs, the noble Lord at the head of the Government replied to him that he did not think it right to grant them a constitution until the war in Kafraria was at an end. In what position were they now? It was said they must send 10,000 men to the Cape, and they might send 20,000 men there, and not succeed in consequence of their mode of proceeding. They must employ the inhabitants of the Cape, who were ready to assist them if they were allowed.
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And why were they not allowed? Because the Colonial Secretary refused to do so. The consequence was that the Kafir War would not only take away the whole of their surplus revenue, but they would be obliged to levy fresh taxes. They should get rid of that war, if it were only for the purpose of being ready in case of an emergency elsewhere. He must repeat the expression of his disappointment at the measure which the noble Lord had allowed the Colonial Secretary to carry out. He saw no chance of a change of policy, and only saw a prospect of the continuation of an expense that would drain the country of its resources. With respect to another question that had been referred to, namely, their position with respect to France. What, he asked, had they to do with the French people and the French Government, except to maintain the peace, amity, and good feeling that has existed between the two countries? What could drive many people to entertain an idea that France was about to invade this country after the kindly and friendly intercourse that had taken place last year in consequence of the Exhibition here, and the reception of the English in Paris? What had arisen to create alarm? There was a large number of persons who lived by the supply of necessaries for the Army and Navy, and it was on that account attempts were made to persuade the people that an invasion was likely to take place. He hoped there would be no increased charge for military purposes, and no such charge would be necessary if the Army and Navy were properly reformed. He had no hesitation in saying that the military force of the country was fully sufficient. There was a return showing that 185,000 men in arms, not including the Navy, were supplied with clothing from the Ordnance Department. Before they had agreed to an increased expenditure of a farthing, he would like to see the reforms adopted which the noble Lord and his colleagues had recommended, but had never carried out. The Duke of Wellington, it was said, opposed all changes; but was he to continue those abuses in the Army which ten years ago he had condemned? They should not he terrified by bugbears. He would not believe that the President of the French people, after the experience he had acquired in England, did not value, and would not adopt, every means in his power to preserve the alliance with England. The statement of the noble Lord, that the

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Government of this country feel nothing in common with those alarmists, would, he hoped, reach him. With regard to what appeared about the President in the English press, he (Mr. Hume) would only say that no man had been more abused by the press than he (Mr. Hume); but when he was right he ultimately prevailed, and if he were wrong, the sooner it was known the bettor. Let every man act that way, and they never need be afraid of the press. He hoped that Louis Napoleon would look upon the press as a body of men having a particular trade to carry on, and particular objects in view, and that they did not represent popular opinion in this country in any way to sway public affairs. He was satisfied it was the interest of England and of France to be at peace, and where it was their mutual interest to be at peace there could be no danger of war. It appeared from a return upon the table of the House that there were 31 ships of war in the Mediterranean, 26 on the coast of Africa, 25 in India, and 15 in the Pacific Ocean, and let them be compared to the proportion of vessels possessed by the United States, and consider also the protection she gave to her commerce. The United States gave protection to their trade with one-tenth of the number of ships which this country employed for the same purpose. Let those ships be used if necessary, but while the country had that fine fleet it should not be put to any additional expense. He was glad to hear the noble Lord did not anticipate any increase in the regular army. There was to be some proposal made respecting the militia, but he might not have properly understood the noble Lord. He had followed the noble Lord in favour of civil and religious liberty since he had entered that House, and would be sorry to part company, but the noble. Lord had been too dilatory of late, and had not had the courage to carry out his own resolutions; he had therefore lost the support of the Reformers. The noble Lord would never be turned out of office by the Protectionists or Tories, but might lose his post by Reformers not giving the support which would otherwise be given. He, therefore, counselled the noble Lord to take an active, energetic, vigorous course, and the noble Lord would have no cause to complain.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, as many opportunities for discussing colonial affairs would occur, he should not at present say a word on the subject; but he
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wished to make one or two remarks on a matter which had been alluded to by his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose. He had no desire to offer any criticisms on the ornaments of the House, or on the arrangements for the accommodation of the Members; but he thought it right to mention the fact that one of those heavy candelabra which were suspended from the ceiling of the House a short time previous to the chair being taken by Mr. Speaker, fell down upon and went through the floor. It would be rather awkward if any one of them were to fall during the sitting of the House, and he thought some guarantee should be given that those things should be properly fitted. He begged also to point out that the hon. Member for Cavan was now sitting on a spot where the lamps leaked, and he would certainly advise the hon. Member to move, if not to the Treasury bench, at least to some other part of the House. While on this subject he would advert to another point that deserved the immediate attention of the House—he meant the ventilation of the building. Upwards of 200,000 l. had been spent upon the ventilation of the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and how were they situated now with regard to that point? Why, Dr. Reid informed him (Mr. Osborne) last night, that the quarrel which had been going on five years between him and Mr. Barry was not yet settled, and he further stated, that unless he were allowed to have the entire charge of that House no settlement would ever be effected. Those two gentlemen by their disputes had completely defeated the efforts of the Committees which had sat on this subject; and, great as were the talents of the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Works and Buildings, he (Mr. Osborne) doubted whether he would be able to terminate the disagreements between those two scientific personages. Under the circumstances, therefore, he certainly felt disposed to move that Dr. Reid should be called to the bar of the House, and be requested to give some explanation upon the subject. That was the only way in which the House could effectually take up the question. They might go on spending the public money year after year, and endangering the lives of many valuable men who were arrived at a stage of life which would not allow them to bear with the heat that prevailed in that House. In his opinion the House was most defectively constructed in respect of ventilation. It was Dr.

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Reid's wish to be called to the bar of the House to be examined on the subject, and he hoped that course would be adopted.
CAPTAIN FITZROYsuggested to his hon. Friend the substitution of a Committee to inquire into the warming and ventilating of the House, for the examination of Dr. Reid at the bar, for they would only get an exparte statement from that gentleman, and would not be in a position to recommend what should be done. Every Gentleman, he thought, could testify to the intolerable state of the House attendant on the stench and puffs of alternate hot and cold air which prevailed, and which composed an atmosphere that was unbearable, and this too at the commencement of a Session which was likely to be long, and occupied with protracted discussions. Such a state of things required investigation, and he would again suggest to his hon. and gallant Friend to withdraw his proposition to call Dr. Reid to the bar of the House, and give a notice of Motion for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the warming and ventilation of the House, which he (Capt. Fitzroy) would himself have proposed, but would now leave in the hands of his hon. and gallant Friend. Most certainly some steps should be taken in the matter; and if his hon. Friend did not give notice of a Motion for a Committee, he (Captain Fitzroy) would move for one.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, no object would be gained by calling Dr. Reid to the bar, and it would be better to have a Committee, which would be able to ascertain what was required, and decide on what should be done. Hon. Gentlemen should remember that they had themselves determined that the House should be ventilated by Dr. Reid, while the rest of the arrangements of the building, including lighting, were left in the hands of Mr. Barry. The conflict between these gentlemen had caused some confusion, and the House was suffering in consequence. Many of the alterations, however, which had been proposed last year had been only lately carried out, and the ventilation was not yet brought to full perfection, so that it could not be said to have had a fair trial. He thought the best course would be the appointment of a Committee.
MR. FITZROYasked whether the noble Lord would move for the appointment of a Committee?
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he should have no objection to do so.
MR. HUMEdid not think any benefit
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would result from the appointment of a Committee. There had been several Committees already, and they had done no service, and another Committee would, in his opinion, be equally useless.
Address agreed to:—To be presented by Privy Councillors.
Adjourned at half after Six o'clock.