Sitting of 28 May 1850

ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSION.
SIR B. HALLwished to ask the right hon. Home Secretary a question in reference to the ecclesiastical courts, and the returns which were ordered by the House a month ago. He was informed that a young lady of interesting appearance and prepossessing manners, had the honour of holding the office of registrar of one of the ecclesiastical courts in this country. He did not wish to impugn the morality of the dignitary who appointed that young lady; indeed, she had held the office ever since she was five years of age; but having heard that very few, if any, of the returns so ordered had been sent in, he begged to inquire whether it was likely that the returns would soon be ready to be laid on the table, in order that it might be seen whether there were any more female officials in the ecclesiastical courts?
SIR G. GREYhad had no notice with regard to this statement, and was totally uninformed with respect to it. The hon. Member wished to know whether there were "any more female officials" in these courts; he (Sir G. Grey) was not aware that there was one. As to the returns, he would repeat what he had stated on the previous night, that the collection of the particulars required from the several dioceses must take time; he was not aware whether any of the returns had come in, but would inquire.

ADJOURNMENT OVER THE DERBY DAY.
MAJOR BERESFORDsaid, that he believed there could be no opposition to the Motion of which he had given notice, as there was not a single Order of the Day or a single Motion set down for Wednesday. Whether that was owing to the desire of hon. Members to enjoy the pleasure and recreation of the day, or from a prophetic fear that a House would not be made, he could not say, but this much was certain that, there being no business set down in the paper, they might fairly ask for a holiday. It would also be the 29th day of May, which was usually considered a holiday. So that upon every view of the matter he could see no reason for objection to the Motion. A right hon. Gentleman, who had been so constantly and indefatigably attentive to his duties as the Speaker,

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ought surely to be made certain that there would be no sitting upon the Wednesday. He had certainly well deserved a holiday from the House. For the last three years it had been regularly voted, and although upon those occasions the adjournment had been moved by more influential Members than he (Major Beresford) was, yet he trusted he would not be considered presumptuous in taking upon himself to move that the House at its rising should adjourn to Thursday.
MR. W. S. CRAWFORDsaid, that he had always opposed the Motion. He did not think it creditable to the House to suspend public business for the purpose of attending a race upon the Derby day. He had, he was sorry to say, upon other occasions very inefficiently opposed the Motion. Upon the present, there being no business set down for Wednesday, he would not divide the House against it. But he wished to enter his protest against it. He believed the reason why no orders had been set down for the Derby day was, that it was considered a hopeless case to attempt to oppose the Motion.
MR. HUMEfelt himself in the same situation as his hon. Friend. He had always opposed the Motion, and had always been in a minority. But as there was nothing on the paper for Wednesday he would have no objection to take a holiday himself.
MR. SLANEYhoped his hon. Friend would always find himself in a minority upon similar occasions.
Motion agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR.
MR. W. PATTENrose to ask a question respecting the salary of the Lord Chancellor, of which he had given notice. It appeared by the public prints that it was likely there would be a vacancy in the office of Lord Chancellor, and he had been directed, therefore, by the Committee on Salaries, to ask whether Government intended, in filling up the vacancy, to render the appointment subject to any decision which they might make on the recommendation of the Committee when their report should be before the House? It had been thought possible, in considering the subject of the office and the nature of its duties, that it might come into discussion whether it might not be advisable to recommend a separation of the judicial and political offices of the Lord Chancellor; and he wished also to ask whether, in filling up
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the vacancy, a stipulation would be made that the person appointed was to take it subject to any decision respecting salary which the House might adopt on the recommendation of the Committee on Salaries?
MR. BOUVERIE: I beg, Sir, also to ask, in case of the vacancy of the Great Seal, whether there will be a distinct understanding with regard to the officers (whose appointments are in the gift of the Keeper of the Great Seal, and whose fees and emoluments were reported upon by the Committee upon Fees in Courts of Law and Equity last year) that their appointments will be made on the express condition that the tenure and existence of their offices, as well as their fees and emoluments, shall be subject to the review and determination of Parliament?
LORD J. RUSSELL: Sir, in answer to the question put to me by the hon. Gentlemen, I have to state, with very great regret, that the Lord Chancellor has found the state of his health to be such that it will not be possible for him to continue the performance of those duties which he has discharged with such credit to himself and advantage to the country. I have to state, therefore, that as soon as the Lord Chancellor shall have given his judgment on various cases which have been under his consideration, he will feel himself called upon to resign the Great Seal. I have further to state, that in filling up the office, I shall have it understood that any person taking the Great Seal shall have to take it subject to any regulation which Parliament may adopt on the report of the Committee. With respect to the fees of any officer appointed by the Lord Chancellor, which should become vacant when the Lord Chancellor resigns the Great Seal, persons shall be appointed with fees and salaries subject to the determination of Parliament. With regard to the further question the hon. Member has asked, as to the separation of the judicial and political functions of the Lord Chancellor, I can only say it is a subject which has engaged the attention of Her Majesty's Government. It is, however, a question of very considerable difficulty. I have no doubt, myself, that the object is one very desirable to attain, and I trust we may be able to propose a measure to Parliament on the subject. But, considering the nature of the office—considering how closely connected it has been with the political history of this country—how much it has been connected with our

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political administration, and with the performance of the highest functions in the State, it is a subject on which I should be loth to propose any measure without very serious consideration.
MR. HUMEasked if the retiring pension of 5,000 l. a year was to be considered also subject to revision?
LORD J. RUSSELL: I think that any person accepting the Great Seal must take it subject to the decision of Parliament with respect to the amount of the pension. At the same time, without saying that 5,000 l a year is the exact pension to be continued, I must certainly say that I shall think it my duty to resist a reduction of the pension to such an amount as would prevent persons of the highest legal talent in the country from accepting the office of Lord Chancellor.
Subject dropped.

THE NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that as a wish had been expressed on the part of many hon. Members to make a trial of the New House of Parliament, and as he learnt that the weather was now favourable for such trial, he proposed that the House should hold a morning sitting in the new chamber on Thursday. He did not propose that their sitting should be prolonged, and therefore proposed to take the Elections (Ireland) Bill, which he thought would probably take only a short time. He proposed that the House should reassemble in their present chamber at Five o'clock on the same day.

EMIGRATION OF ORPHAN CHILDREN.
MR. W. MILESpresented a petition from the board of guardians of the union of Berwick-upon-Tweed, praying the House to adopt some measure to promote the emigration of young females to the colonies. He believed that the comfort, and in some cases the subsistence, of the poorer classes depended upon the speedy settlement of the question whether or no emigration was to depend solely upon the fund derived from the sale of Crown lands in Australia, or whether the Government would come forward and support the fund by an annual grant, and thus benefit the colony and confer a great advantage on the mother country, where, on account of the competition, both foreign and domestic, a large portion of the population are sinking to a famine level. He could never contemplate our possessions in America, Australia, and New Zealand, so fertile a soil, and so congenial
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to the residence of Europeans, without feeling thankful to the Great Disposer of events for having given those possessions to a country so circumscribed as England. The object of colonisation ought to be to encourage a proper class of emigrants, and to take care to afford them a ready supply of labour. The emigrants comprise a considerable number of small farmers and capitalists, who with their wives have been accustomed to have their menial occupations performed by domestic servants, and who before leaving this country generally take the precaution to insure proper attendance by paying for the passage of those persons from whom they expect to derive the benefit of servitude on their arrival in the colony; but it frequently happened that in the course of a few months they were deprived of the services on which they had relied. He wished to confine his statements and arguments to the wants and requirements of New South Wales, and, therefore, would not travel over bygone reports, but would call the attention of the House to official documents recently issued to show the want of female domestics in that part of the world. In a paper, delivered in February, entitled "Emigration to the Australian Colonies," he found a return from the 63 magisterial divisions of Sydney, and from the six magisterial divisions of Port Phillip, stating the want of labourers and domestic servants. In 33 out of the 63 districts, the want of female domestic servants was very great. He would not trouble the House by referring to the returns at any length, but would merely give a few extracts:—
"Carcoar.—Domestic servants, particularly female servants, are in request; they are not to be had at any wages. Liverpool.—Female house-servants are in great demand; they are not procurable in the district. Campbeltown.—Farm and domestic servants, male and female, are in urgent demand. Broulee.—Female servants-of-all-work are in request. Queenbeyan.—Domestic servants of all descriptions are much required in this district. Tumut.—The operations of the settlers are completely paralysed for want of labour; children from 8 years of ago to 16 are engaged at wages from 12 l. to 20 l. per annum. Housemaids and nursemaids are much wanted. Newcastle.—Female farm and domestic servants are in great demand."
He thought he had said enough to show the difficulties under which the colonists laboured in procuring female servants, and would now turn his attention to the question—is England in a position to furnish those female servants under a guarantee that the colonists shall for some time he

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secure of their services? He conceived England to be in a position to find for those colonies an abundant supply of servants of both sexes quite sufficient for all their wants, with afterwards an abundant yearly supply, and nothing, so far as he knew, stood in the way of accomplishing that object, except the advance made to New South Wales of 300,000 l Soon after the information of the poor-law unions his attention was very much directed to one union, containing a population of 56,000 persons and three workhouses, in which were located the ablebodied, the aged, and the young; and on examining the pauper school, he was astonished at finding such a large number of children, many of whom were orphans and without protectors or friends. In consequence of the expense of maintaining three workhouses, the inmates were transferred to one largo establishment, where the children, up to the age of 15, were kept apart from the elder paupers, not being allowed to enter the general ward. After that time they were occasionally employed in the women's ward; but he was sorry to say, from the description of persons with whom they then associated, they frequently became contaminated. At the age of 16 they were considered ablebodied, and could leave the house at any time, on giving 24 hours' notice; and he could mention numerous instances of the demoralisation and crime which resulted from these orphan girls being suddenly cast upon the world. It had been stated that a general disinclination existed in the colonies, particularly in Australia, to the reception of pauper labour; and in that respect he thought they were right, because so far as ablebodied men and women were concerned, they were neither efficient labourers nor servants; but with respect to children the case was far different, and he would endeavour to show the result of their industrial training, because on that training depended their usefulness to the colonists. Mr. Cooper, in a report made to the Emigration Commissioners, said that the children brought up in properly-managed workhouses are more intelligent, and equally as able to earn their livelihood by labour as when brought up by their parents; and he believed that under the existing circumstances of the colonies, they would prove more desirable emigrants than persons of the same age who have not had the advantages of the education given to children in the workhouses. Since the period at which that report was written,
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other evidence had been given confirmatory of what he had stated. He referred to the evidence of those gentlemen who had been sent out, he believed, by a Committee of the Privy Council, under the authority of the Poor Law Board, as commissioners, to determine as to the education of the schoolmasters, and as to the efficiency of the schools. When he stated the name of Mr. Tufnell as one of the five commissioners, he was sure the House would receive with deference any opinion he might have given. Mr. Tufnell stated—
"It is a frequent remark of visitors to workhouse schools that the girls present a very superior appearance to the hoys; while the former are healthy-looking and well-grown, the latter are comparatively stunted in growth, less healthy in look, and altogether of an inferior physical development. I was long puzzled to account for this difference, as the treatment of both is very similar; but I am now persuaded that it is owing to the want of appropriate industrial work for the boys. In general there is no difficulty in finding abundant suitable employment for the girls; and though a considerable part of it, such as sewing, is sedentary, the female constitution seems to suffer far less from confinement than the other sex, and in washing, scouring, bedmaking, &c., there is always much of that sort of work most conducive to health."
Mr. Brown stated—
"The girls usually sew and knit, frequently do house-work, and more rarely bake, wash, and cut out linen."
Mr. Bowyer stated—
"The industrial training of the girls is better provided for, as the making and mending of the clothing and linen of the house afford them a constant and appropriate occupation. They are always employed for two hours of the afternoon in knitting and sewing, and become in some places accomplished needlewomen. They always make their own beds, sweep and wash their own floors, and generally also those of a great part of the workhouse. They help to serve the dinner for the house, and the elder girls assist in the kitchen and wait upon the master and matron, preparatory to being placed in service. In some of the larger and best-regulated workhouses they even possess a separate laundry."
Mr. Ruddock gave similar evidence. Having shown that the industrial and moral training of the workhouse girls was well looked to up to a certain period of life, he should now call the attention of the House to the return moved for in 1848 by the late lamented President of the Poor Law Board. Though that return was not so complete as one that had been since made, it was sufficiently full to enable them to make a subdivision of the workhouse girls into three classes—those under three years of age—those between throe and seven—and those between seven and sixteen. It

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was impossible, however, for the public to understand from this subdivision the number of girls who quitted the workhouse to compete with other children for labour. Last autumn he had issued circulars in the county which he represented, to the different union workhouses for in formation on this point, and he had ascertained that in twelve workhouses the number of boys and girls capable of entering service was no less than 273. He had likewise inquired of the different boards of guardians whether they would contribute not only to the outfit of the children, and to send them to the port of embarkation, but also to the expenses of the voyage. The answers which he had received from the twelve unions were decidedly in the affirmative, and to the effect that the guardians would consent to do so if the Government came forward with some assistance. They had also assured him, from the knowledge they possessed of the different parishes, that they would have no difficulty in carrying on emigration on such terms. Early in the Session of 1849, he had an interview with the Under Secretary of the Colonies and the President of the Poor Law Board on the subject, and he believed that both of those hon. Members concurred in much of what he had stated, and objected only on the question of expense. In that Session the hon. Member for Dover had moved for a return similar to that moved for by the late President of the Poor Law Board. He wished to direct the attention I of the House to that return, to show the number of workhouse children capable of service. According to that return the number of children in the workhouses each year was 56,323. Of these the number of boys capable of entering service was 4,579; of girls, 3,694—total, 8,273. The num her of male orphans capable of service was 1,578; female, 1,171—total, 2,749: about one-third of the children capable of entering service, He thought there were other classes of children who might be benefited by emigrating, and they were—children of widows who were not in the workhouse; children of widows who were in the work-house; children of widowers who were not in the workhouse; children of widowers who were in the workhouse. These, he thought, with consent of their parents, might emigrate with advantage. It was his intention last Session to have called attention to this subject, but he did not regret the delay that had occurred, as the returns since made showed the interest
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taken by Earl Grey on this subject. Indeed it was a subject which had been taken up by the Government, and was more a question of theirs than of his. In his despatch of the 26th June, 1848, to Sir C. Fitzroy, Earl Grey expressed his concurrence in the report of the Commissioners, and directed him to take measures to give effect to their recommendations with regard to workhouse children, and for placing them in a respectable position in the colony. In one of their letters the Commissioners of Colonial Emigration gave it as their opinion that the emigration of these children was for the interest of the colony, and of the greatest benefit to the girls, but that they were unwilling to undertake it on a large scale until sufficient preparation was made in the colony for their proper employment and distribution. The Emigration Committee, having been requested to report as to the prospect of placing these emigrants in eligible situations, stated in answer that female emigrants from the English workhouses would be acceptable to the colonists, and that in the Sydney districts suitable situations might be readily obtained for 800 of them. The hon. Member for North Northamptonshire proposed to Include Ireland in the present Motion; but he ought to recollect that if he succeeded in extending the Motion to Irish workhouse orphans, a contribution of 5l. per head would have to be made towards the expense of their passage. In answer to the request of Earl Grey, it was stated that two districts of the colony were willing to take 1,400 of these children as apprentices that very year. Having the concurrence of the legislature of Sydney, be should like to suggest whether it would not be better at once to commence a system, which, if carried out, would lead to a greater demand for boy as well as girl emigrants from the workhouses of this country. It would be of the greatest use to the colonists of New South Wales if they could obtain apprentices on whoso services they could rely. The convict boys who had been sent to Western Australia, had, from their industrial training, been most useful to the colony. Two years ago the noble Lord the Member for Bath made a Motion for sending out a certain number of ragged school boys; but that emigration had not turned out so well as that to Western Australia, for the boys, released from restraint, conducted themselves ill in the colony. [Lord ASHLEY: No, no!] At all events they did not turn out

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so well in the colony as had been expected, and it was to be regretted that several of them, on their arrival there, sustained themselves by petty pilfering. He asked the House to go to the children of paupers, and relieve them in the manner which he had indicated; they should go to the children of paupers who were paupers from no inclination of their own, but from the force of circumstances. He should now notice the financial part of the question; and in the first place he wished to observe that nothing could be more evident than the economy of sending out those orphans at a comparatively trifling cost, rather than keeping them at home at a certain and weighty expenditure. In the early part of his observations he had mentioned the advance of 300,000 l. to New South Wales; but that, he thought, ought not to form any real impediment to the plan which he proposed, for in the years 1848 and 1849 that colony had remitted to this country as much as 180,000 l, so that only 120,000 l. remained due, and applications for payment on account of that sum of 300,000 l. had always been met by remittances. The House would recollect he had already stated that he proposed that 5l. for each emigrant should be contributed by the parishes; and, in addition to that, he proposed that such further sum as might be required for the expenses of the voyage, should be defrayed out of the colonial fund—thus the parishes and the colonies contributing jointly to that which was for the benefit of both. The cost of the emigration of an adult would be about 12 l. 10 s., and of children about half that price. The whole sum required from the colonies for carrying out his proposal would not exceed 7,000 l. The generality of parishes would eagerly accept the offer if made by the Government; and he trusted that the House would urge the subject upon the attention of Her Majesty's Ministers. Such a plan as he had proposed would be the prelude to further emigration, and it would be a blessing not only to New South Wales, but to the other colonies of this great empire.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That it is expedient that the Government, with the consent and assistance of the Boards of Guardians throughout England and Wales, should take immediate steps to forward the emigration of orphan girls, inmates of the several workhouses, and capable of entering service, to Australia as apprentices."
MR. STAFFORDrose to move his Amendment—to substitute the words
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"United Kingdom" for the words "England and Wales" in the Motion. He did not propose the Amendment in any spirit of hostility to the Motion, but he thought that any aid granted for emigration ought to include Ireland as well as other parts of the united kingdom. There had never been such efforts made by any nation for the purpose of emigration as those which had been made of late years by the people of Ireland. In corroboration of this statement he might refer hon. Gentlemen to the tenth report of the Emigration Commissioners, which stated that the emigration of the last three years gave an annual average of 268,619 persons, being not very far short of the whole annual increase of the united kingdom. The emigration from Ireland, for the last three years, gave an average of 200,482 a year, which exceeded the increase of the population by 123,844 souls per annum. At this rate, therefore, the population of Ireland would be decreased in about eight years by emigration alone to the extent of 1,000,000 souls. He saw no reason why what was asked from the Government for England, should not be asked for Ireland also. Last Session the Poor Law Amendment Act was passed, which contained clauses referring to emigration; but experience had shown them to be inoperative. He had received a communication from the clerk of the poor-law union of Limerick, who stated that last winter the guardians had advertised for tenders for a loan of 6,000 l., for which they offered 6 per cent under the clauses of the Poor Law Amendment Act; but they only received a tender for 500 l., and with this sum they "emigrated" ninety-one persons at an average expense of 5l. 10 s. per head, which left each person 15 s. to receive upon landing. These persons had cost the guardians 14 l. for their maintenance in the workhouse; and if they had "emigrated" them at first, they would have saved the difference between that sum and 5l. 10 s., the cost of their passage. It thus appeared that the security provided for emigration loans was not so satisfactory as to lead them to hope that the emigration clauses of the Bill of last Session could be carried into effect. The Irish Poor Law Commissioners reported that there was an increased disposition on the part of boards of guardians to avail themselves of the provisions of the law with regard to emigration, and they recommended the subject to the favourable consideration of the Lord Lieutenant. The

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number of girls recommended for emigration was 2,500, of whom 2,219 had gone, and large numbers still remained in the workhouses who were ready to follow. He was sorry it had been supposed by some that the conduct of these Irish orphan girls had not been so satisfactory as could be wished. In the defence, for such it was, which he was about to offer for these girls, he believed it would be found that they were not deserving of the censures which had been cast upon them. It appeared that the great majority of the female orphans from Ireland had behaved very well on board ship, and on their landing; that they had given entire satisfaction in every respect, with the exception that they were uninstructed as domestic servants. Now, he hoped it would in future be taken into consideration the importance of improving the system of instruction in the Irish workhouses, by teaching the female orphans the duties of domestic servants. There were societies in our colonies under the name of St. George, St. Patrick, and St. Andrew, for the protection of the interests of the respective inhabitants of the three kingdoms, and they had strongly recommended the encouragement of a sound system of emigration, as equally for the benefit of the mother country and the colonies themselves. He begged to refer to a case which had recently excited much attention, namely, the case of the fifty-three orphan girls from Belfast who had gone out in the Earl Grey, and who were said to be all prostitutes. This charge was exaggerated, and he considered it had been shown that there had been no want of care in the selection of these girls. All the orphan girls sent out in the Earl Grey were not included in the condemnation. With two-thirds of the number no dissatisfaction was felt; it was only the fifty-six women who obtained opprobrious distinctions from the other emigrants under the title of "the Belfast girls." These girls obtained a good character from the master of the workhouse and the board of guardians, and a great deal of the irregularity of their conduct was attributed to the ill behaviour of some of the officers of the vessel. Now, it was obviously impossible that any certificates of character could be depended upon, so that no irregularities should occur upon such a voyage; and before they condemned these Belfast girls, let them contrast their conduct with that of girls sent out from workhouses nearer home. The emigration authorities in New South Wales
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could not find words strong enough to give an idea of the trouble they had, and were likely still to have, with the women, or rather fiends in human shape, who went out in one vessel from the Marylebone workhouse. They were described as a nuisance to all on board, and as using the most disgraceful and disgusting language. It was stated that they could not be kept from the sailors, and that they almost excited the crew to mutiny. The Belfast girls were purity itself when compared with these Marylebone ladies. The Irish orphan girls who went out by the Lady Kennaway behaved well on the voyage, and had given very general satisfaction to their employers in the colony. The Irish orphan girls sent out by the New Liverpool were described as uneducated and never to have been in any service. A few Irish orphans were sent out in the Inconstant, with regard to whom the secretary to the Orphan Board in South Australia said—
"They do not appear to be so suitable a selection as those by the Roman Emperor, 150 of whom had been accustomed to farm work, milking, and washing; whereas thirty-five only from the Inconstant could undertake such employments, and the remainder show no disposition to learn. Few of them know anything of washing, and this causes the colonists to be indifferent about hiring them, the Irish orphans being chiefly wanted for the country settlers."
If the guardians would educate these orphan girls in domestic duties, there would be no difficulty in finding situations and a welcome for them in the colonies. The question ought to be extended, so that its consideration should embrace the whole subject of emigration from the united empire. It had been said that the colonies were not satisfied with those who had been sent out from the ragged schools; but that was not sustained by the fact, and he knew his noble Friend the Member for Bath would be able to defend the character of those whose prospects he had been so active in forwarding. It was also a source of sincere congratulation to his noble Friend, and those who had co-operated with him in assisting the operatives who had been obliged to leave France at the time of the Revolution to emigrate, that the conduct of those persons had been highly satisfactory, and their presence of great value in the colonies to which they had been sent. It was the importance which attached to that subject which had led him to wish to extend the proposition beyond England, and to include the workhouses

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of Ireland also in its operation; and that the whole empire should be embraced in considering that great question of emigration. He was desirous, whether or not Government opposed or agreed either to his Amendment or the original Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Somersetshire, that that House, which professed to be the exponent of the public opinion of this country, should express its sentiments, without reference to party discussion, on one of the most important social questions which occupied the public mind of this country. He deeply regretted that the hotter classes did not take a greater interest in the question of emigration than they did. It was true they were not wanting in their contribution of funds to encourage and promote the emigration of their poorer fellow-countrymen. But he trusted the time was coming when the better classes would commence a system of emigration among themselves. It did not seem to him impossible that some of our infant princes hereafter should go forth to found a distinct empire in a distant part of the world—an empire won, not by the sword, but the higher acts of peace and civilisation, and thus establish a more glorious dominion than ever the House of Hanover had lost. It was highly satisfactory to him to see that there were various societies planting the principles of Christianity and British institutions at the Antipodes, as he could observe by a reference to the report of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts. [The hon. Member here referred to, and read extracts from, a correspondence which had taken place between some clergymen sent out by the society alluded to, and Earl Grey, relative to the want of spiritual as well as medical assistance which prevailed in a quarantine station on the coast of Canada, in consequence of the numbers of Irish emigrants arriving, and the prevalence of a severe epidemic] He did not think the answer which the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Office had given to the application made to him in consequence of the mortality caused by the epidemic amongst the missionaries, was such as became his position. All the ports of America had expressed their conviction that the Government should exercise some superintendence over the system of emigration. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Poor Law Department had acknowledged the difficulty of an amendment of the law of settlement—difficulties which were so great
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that he could not promise any proposition for regulating that law during the present Session: now, that being the case, was it not an additional inducement to that hon. and learned Gentleman to give the question of emigration fuller consideration? He was glad that that important question was now attracting the attention which it deserved. There was hardly a paper which one could take up, that did not contain some proceedings of societies established for the protection and encouragement of emigrants. The hon. Member for South Wiltshire had met with deserved success in his emigration of the distressed needlewomen. The proposition for the Canterbury settlement had been very successful, and was deserving of every encouragement. In fact, it was attracting the attention of the better classes to a considerable extent. A meeting had been called at a few hours' notice, at Cambridge, a short time since, to explain the objects of that settlement, and the views of the society promoting it, which had been most numerously attended by a large body not only of the undergraduates of that university, but by its professors, and others, who were anxious to learn intelligence of an interesting colony, and what were the prospects which might await emigrants of a better order. He thought there was a tendency throughout the country amongst the better classes to emigrate, and if it were carried into effect, no doubt it would be a great blessing to their humbler fellow-countrymen who went out to the colonies. The old system in the management of our colonies had been that in developing their resources we should render them independent of the rest of the world; and it was wonderful how nearly this little island had succeeded in realising that idea. But in the year 1846 that idea had been abandoned, and we had adopted the principle of having recourse to the cheapest markets. He should not then discuss the merits of that principle; but he would remind those hon. Members who maintained it, that this country was not less bound at present than she had formerly been to promote to the utmost possible extent the interest both of the colonists and of the people of the mother country by a wise and enlarged system of emigration. Let those who advocated the new idea not shrink from dealing with the subject of emigration in connexion with the great change which they had been so anxious to introduce. Let not the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark—he

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was sorry not to see him in his place—he I silent now, or shrink from the discussion of this question in its bearings on the present state of the transition to which their colonial empire was subject. In his opinion, emigration ought to be treated altogether apart from the colonial question, because whatever system of colonial government might be adopted, it was manifestly for the advantage of the inhabitants of every portion of this great empire that its productive powers should be spread over the most profitable fields for their employment. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would show that they were not indifferent to the great, the paramount, and the pressing importance of that question. He believed that emigration was at present a fireside, a household, question in the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would treat it in a manner befitting the rulers of a great and noble empire.
Amendment proposed, "To leave out the words 'England and Wales,' in order to insert the words 'the United Kingdom,'" instead thereof.
MR. HAWESregarded the question which had been brought under their notice by the hon. Member for East Somersetshire as one of very great interest, and he should be sorry to say one word that might appear to detract from its importance. Nothing could be of greater importance, to the Australian colonies especially, than maintaining towards them a careful regard for the proper distribution of the sexes; and he believed many social evils would have been avoided if years ago more attention had been paid to this subject. But he was bound to say, that in all these general views of benevolence there were some limits that could never be passed—limits that must especially be considered by the House of Commons, and which it would be his duty now to point out. He understood that the hon. Gentleman sought for no grant of public money, and he also understood him to state that the subject had attracted the attention of his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department. There was, therefore, very little difference between them; for the hon. Gentleman could not attach more importance to the subject than Her Majesty's Government did, and there was no indisposition on their part to give all the stimulus in their power to a wholesome system of emigration. But they must consider, first of
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all, the capability of a colony to receive any particular class of emigrants; they must also consider the interests and welfare of the colonists; and then there was the larger question affecting the interests of the country at large. Some years ago, it was a crying evil in New South Wales that the proportion which the one sex bore to the other led to dreadful social disorders. Of late years that subject had attracted much attention, and, at last, the restoration of the equality of the sexes in New South Wales had almost been completely effected. Since the beginning of 1847, 8,740 females had gone to Sydney, 7,000 to Fort Phillip, and 7,700 to South Australia—making in all 23,440. The number of males sent was 20,550—thus showing that there was rather an excess of female over male emigration; and of the females he might state that 4,128 were Irish orphans. The hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for North Northamptonshire, alluded to the emigration of Irish orphans under the management of the Land Emigration Commissioners, and he was happy to say that it had been, on the whole, a successful emigration; but at the same time he must call the attention of the House to the several colonies to which these females had been called, and be was afraid that In doing so he would have to ask the hon. Member not to urge this emigration too rapidly, lest he should actually defeat the object he had in view. The hon. Member for East Somersetshire had alluded to a despatch of Earl Grey addressed to the Governor of New South Wales, which had led to a large emigration of females, who were sent over with a special view to improve the social and domestic condition of the colonists; and he was ready to admit that great social good had been accomplished by sending that large number of females. He could assure his hon. Friend that there was but one wish and feeling pervading alike the Colonial Office and the Land Emigration Commissioners. Their only desire was, to supply the colonists with that kind of emigration which was most likely to be beneficial to thorn, and, at the same time, most advantageous to the emigrants themselves. The Commissioners had had their attention called to the large number of Irish orphans that were crowding the workhouses in Ireland, and the House, he doubted not, would agree with him that the Commissioners were right in devoting their funds to relieve that pressing necessity. Well,

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the large number of 4,128 orphans had already been sent to the colonies; and from the accounts received, it was quite clear that the supply of that species of female emigrants, whether to Sydney, to Adelaide, or to Melbourne, had been equal to the requirements of those colonies. The hon. Member for North Northamptonshire had alluded to the 219 female emigrants sent out in the ship Roman Emperor. The Committee appointed to watch over their interests was constituted an official board. That board received them on their arrival in the colony, and procured situations for nearly all of them. The second ship was the Inconstant, by which 195 female emigrants were sent out, 150 only of whom were hired while on board. On the 21st of October, 26 of those orphan girls were unengaged, the reason probably being that the number that had arrived in the colonies had already exceeded the demand. In a letter addressed by the Chairman of the Orphan Immigration Committee to the Colonial Secretary at Sydney, dated Melbourne, October 26, 1849, and which was signed by the Bishop of Melbourne, as President, the following passage occurred:—
"The board bog now to state to your Honour the following facts, as bearing upon the subject of orphan immigration, both from England and Ireland—1. That the demand for the orphans has sensibly diminished. 2. That the orphans by each succeeding ship have been disposed of to parties of a lower rank, and less desirable class than those preceding. 3. That there is shown by the public a decided preference for other bounty immigrants, on account of the inexperience and incapacity for household work of the orphan girls. 4. That the cost of these latter to the colony is even greater, by the recent regulations of the Commissioners, than that of the former. Under these circumstances, the board cannot but look forward with some degree of anxiety to the responsibility of disposing of those orphan girls who may be at present on their passage, and of those who will have been embarked before any communication can be made to the Government at home, and they would venture to suggest that it would be expedient to suspend this branch of emigration to the Port Phillip district until the board may feel themselves justified by further experience in recommending its removal."
That was from Port Phillip. Similar recommendations had been given by the orphan boards in South Australia and Sydney. The whole number of orphan emigrants sent out in the course of the year was 1,600, and the authorities had urged the Emigration Commissioners to reduce that number to one-half. He did not mention this for the purpose of discouraging female emigration, but he did
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wish to impress it upon the House that they were dealing with a species of emigration that required great care and consideration. If they were to bring a large number of decent and respectable persons upon the shores of the colonies without being able to procure them situations or give them employment, the probability would be that they would add to, rather than diminish, that social evil which it was their object to remove. He would call the attention of the House to the amount of the funds in the hands of the Emigration Commissioners. He could assure his hon. Friend that on the part of the Colonial Office there was every desire to promote the object in which his hon. Friend took so deep an interest. Indeed, he was happy to say, that in regard to the object, if it were practicable to attain it, there was no difference of opinion; but it must be remembered that the funds which were placed in the hands of the Secretary of State were held by him only as a trustee. It was his duty to administer them first under the provisions of an Act of Parliament, and next under the general regulations laid down by the colonial authorities, who could best judge of the means of employment, and of the number of emigrants they could profitably receive. There were limitations upon the power of the Colonial Secretary as to the persons to be selected for emigration. He could not take persons from any particular part of the country, or from any particular class. In his desire to relieve Ireland, he had departed from the general rule, which was, that the funds placed in his hands, derived from colonial sources, should be applied in a manner that should be beneficial to the whole community and to all classes. If, indeed, the funds were unlimited, probably the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department might do well, in further promoting female emigration, always to keep one consideration in mind, namely, the power of the colonists themselves to absorb that particular class of emigrants; for nothing could be more prejudicial to the general cause of emigration, and nothing more injurious to the colonies, than the sending out of a larger number of female emigrants than could be absorbed by the colonies. He could not hold out quite so promising a prospect of the funds for promoting emigration generally, as might be inferred from the statement of the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Somersetshire. At this moment there was a very trifling available

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balance in the hands of the commissioners for the ensuing year. Whatever funds were to be received on account of emigration were to be derived from the colonies, to which, of course, would be added any vote that the House of Commons might determine to grant. For emigration to New South Wales, the commissioners, after the resumption of emigration in the end of 1847, expended, up to the latter part of 1848, one sum of 100,000 l. which had long since been paid by the colony. By the middle of 1849 they expended a second sum of 100,000 l. provided for by advances from the Treasury; and they had since expended a third amount of 100,000 l., for which the claims only fell due as news was received of the ships' arrivals. This made 300,000 l. in all, either paid or to be paid by the colony. The commissioners had also expended for New South Wales about 43,700 l., received from private contributions, and also the colony's share of the convict emigration grant, which amounted to upwards of 23,000 l. Thus, in two years and a half, the commissioners had expended about 370,000 l., or at the rate of 147,000 l. per annum. The available funds up to the present date had all been employed. There would be the means, however, of continuing the emigration at a moderate rate. With regard to South Australia, the emigration to that colony in 1849 consisted of 5,175 persons. The amount of funds available for 1850, when last estimated, would scarcely admit of sending one ship in a month. Under these circumstances it would at this moment be undesirable to give any stimulus to further emigration. The Government could only act upon the best information they could obtain from the colonies. He had no wish to oppose the general object of the hon. Gentleman; he was desirous only of making a plain statement to guard the House against supposing that the Government could do more than they were really able to do. He could not avoid calling the attention of the House to the fact that the boards of guardians hitherto had not manifested any strong desire to contribute that 5l. a head which the hon. Gentleman proposed should be a part of the arrangement. Speaking as far as regarded Sydney, and he believed he might extend the remark to New South Wales, he could say that unless that contribution were made, the proposition of the hon. Gentleman would not be considered either advantageous or acceptable. As to
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the assistance which might be afforded by the Treasury in furtherance of this emigration plan, the House should bear in mind how prejudicial such advances were calculated to be, by drying up the sources of private contributions. The number of emigrants from Ireland to the United States and Canada in the ten years prior to 1847, was 740,000, and from 1847 to 1850, 730,000, making a total, in thirteen years, of 1,470,000. The number of emigrants from the united kingdom during the years 1847 to 1850, was 805,857, being an annual average of 268,619, approximating to the average annual increment of population. The funds expended to promote this emigration amounted in the whole to 1,743,500 l., of which sum 228,300 l. were contributed by the colonies and the Government; and no less than 1,515,200 l. were by private contributions. Taking the whole population of Australia and New Zealand from January 1, 1848, to be about 326,000, he found that the number of emigrants sent to those colonies from that period was 56,000, or 16 per cent upon the gross population. He did not, therefore, think it could be said that emigration had not been adequately promoted. His hon. Friend the Member for North Northamptonshire had asked what proportion Irish emigration bore to the population of Ireland, and what was the proportion of English emigration to the population of England—it being supposed that a larger proportionate number of English emigrants were sent out than Irish. He (Mr. Hawes) could satisfy the House that there had been no partiality shown in that respect. Taking the decimal proportions of the population of the three countries to be England, 59.6; Scotland, 9.8; and Ireland, 31.86, the actual number of emigrants sent out since the recommencement of emigration in October, 1847, was English, 25,392; Scotch, 4,343; Irish, 12,486. The decimal pooportion of that emigration would be, as compared with the population, English, 60.14; Scotch, 10.28; and Irish, 29.53; showing a difference of only 400 as against the proper number that ought to have been sent out from Ireland. He hoped the hon. Gentleman the Member for East Somersetshire would believe that the Emigration Commissioners were acting in concurrence with the views laid down by Earl Grey on this subject, and of which the hon. Gentleman had expressed his approbation. On the whole he (Mr. Hawes) considered the Motion of the

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hon. Gentleman as a friendly admonition to the Government; as an intimation that his eyes were upon them, and that the attention of the House would be kept alive with a view to stir up the Colonial Office to a right discharge of its duty. It would be with reluctance that he should move the previous question, and he hoped, after the statement he had made, the hon. Gentle-man would withdraw his Motion. After the number of emigrants already sent out, and after the colonial statement of the difficulty of finding employment, he thought that if the Motion were to pass, it would excite expectations which could not be gratified; he should therefore move the previous question.
MR. SPEAKERintimated to the hon. Gentleman that the previous question could not be then moved, as there was already before the House an Amendment to the original question.
Question, "That the words 'England and Wales' stand part of the Question," put, and negatived:—Words, "the United Kingdom," inserted.
Main Question, as amended, proposed.
Whereupon, Previous Question proposed,
"That that Question be now put."
MR. MONSELLsaid, he was happy to hear that the grievance of which he had had reason to complain two or three times during the last Session, had been redressed. It would, however, be a great advantage if Irish emigrants were allowed to start from the ports of their own country instead of being obliged to come to some English port. One of the difficulties would be got rid of if the hon. Member for East Somersetshire would amend his Motion by leaving out altogether the words "to Australia." He could not understand upon what principle the hon. Gentleman should wish to send the emigrants to whom his Motion referred, to Australia. He thought there was a colony that must occupy a considerable portion of public attention, the colony of Natal, on account of the events that were taking place there, and the necessity there would be, in consequence of the short cotton crop in America this year, of encouraging emigration to a colony which produced cotton; but his principal reason for rising was to call attention to the necessity of promoting the emigration of females from the Irish workhouses. In Cork union there were 563 males and 954 females between the ages of 15 and 40 who had been there more than one year; and every one who knew anything of Ireland
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knew that a person who was domiciled in a workhouse for one year was very likely to spend the rest of his days there. In Thurles union there were 247 males and 648 females between the ages of 15 and 40 who had been there more than one year. In Galway there were 530 males and 740 females between the same ages; and, in the whole of Ireland, there were 10,118 males and 18,429 females, between those ages, who had been in the workhouse more than one year.
Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted; and 40 Members not being present.
The House was adjourned at a quarter after Eight o'clock till Thursday.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Chancery Court of Appeal.
2a Fees (Court of Common Pleas).
Reported.—The Trustees Act, 1850.

AUSTRALIAN COLONIES GOVERNMENT BILL.
EARL GREYproposed to take the second reading of the Australian Colonies Government Bill for Thursday next.
LORD MONTEAGLE, having urged the propriety of postponing to a more distant day the Australian Colonies Bill, asked his noble Friend whether any other papers than those already on the table, which were necessary to the explanation of the principle of that measure, had been recently received by the Government? He knew that two or three packets had recently arrived from Australia in this country; and, if any important papers had been received by them, it would be advantageous to their Lordships to have those papers for consideration, before they came to a decision on so grave and critical a constitutional question.
EARL GREYobserved that, with regard to the postponement of the Australian Bill, he was anxious to meet the wishes of the House; but he was anxious to remind the House that they were now arriving at that period of the Session when there was always a great pressure of business in the House of Lords. If they deferred this Bill now, they would have shortly from the other House a large number of Bills, which it would be impossible for them to discuss hereafter fully and fairly. Though the notice for Thursday was but a short notice, yet the Bill had been for a long time be fore Parliament. All the most important papers relating to it had been laid on the table at the end of last Session. The Bill had been long and deliberately discussed in the House of Commons, and had been in the hands of their Lordships before the Whitsuntide recess. Noble Lords had thus had ample opportunity for preparing themselves for the discussion; and, unless it should be a serious inconvenience to his noble Friend to take the second reading on Thursday next, he should be most unwilling to postpone it to a more distant period. He was not aware that any new papers had arrived, save one, which would be laid on the table immediately.
LORD MONTEAGLEwould add another motive for the postponement of the second reading. It was true that the Bill had been for some time before their Lordships, but no notice for the second reading had been given before that evening. There were other parties besides the Government interested in the constitution to be given to the colonies. Some of them had recently arrived in this country, and were anxious to bring their views on the subject under the consideration of Parliament, either by petition or by some other mode, before the Bill was read a second time.
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Now, if notice had been given of the second reading a week ago, no allegation of surprise could be made; but, under the circumstances which he had just stated, the second reading of the Bill on Thursday would operate very injuriously against those who intended to petition against it.
LORD BEAUMONTsaw no validity in the plea which the noble Baron had urged for postponement, and hoped that his noble Friend (Earl Grey) would not comply with the noble Baron's request.
LORD STANLEYobserved, that though there were some portions of the Bill to which he entertained great objection, he had no intention of opposing its second reading. He did not know whether his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) intended to oppose the principle of the Bill on its second reading, but he imagined that he did not. He admitted that their Lordships were, to a certain extent, taken by surprise in consequence of the indisposition of his noble Friend the President of the Council, which had induced the noble Secretary of the Colonies to fix the second reading of this Bill for Thursday; but he thought that that stage of the Bill ought not to be deferred for any length of time. Would his noble Friend opposite see any difficulty in taking Friday instead of Thursday for the second reading of the Bill?
LORD MONTEAGLEremarked, that as far as he was personally concerned, he should raise no objection to the second reading on Friday; but the parties who would be taken by surprise—and he gladly admitted that his noble Friend (Earl Grey) had no intention of taking any party by surprise—were those who had recently arrived from the colonies, and who would be precluded from presenting their petition. If he had an opportunity of presenting their petition before the second reading, he should be satisfied. He had no intention to divide against the principle of the Bill any more than his noble Friend (Lord Stanley).
EARL GREYthought that the House ought not to be asked to postpone the second reading of this Bill merely because certain parties wished to petition against it. He saw no difficulty in naming Friday for the second reading instead of Thursday. His only reason for fixing Thursday originally instead of Friday was, that there were two Bills standing for discussion on Friday, namely, the Sunday Trading Bill and the Distress for Rent (Ireland) Bill,

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but neither of those Bills would, in his opinion, occupy much time.
After a few words from Lord EDDISBURY
Subject dropped.

FEES (COURT OF COMMON PLEAS) BILL.
LORD BEAUMONT LORD BEAUMONT moved the Second Reading of this Bill, which affects two officers of the Court of Common Pleas—the senior master of that court as Registrar of Judgments, and the officer appointed for registering the acknowledgments of married women under the Act for the Abolition of Fines and Recoveries. The Bill would give a proper remuneration to those officers for the fees which they now received, and the surplus of those fees would be paid into the Treasury. It would also give compensation to the officers for any loss which they might sustain.
LORD REDESDALEentertained considerable objections to the Bill, which was at present in a crude state, and suggested the propriety of postponing the second reading, to afford an opportunity for considering its provisions.
After a few observations from Lord MONTEAGLE, who also entertained considerable objections to the Bill,
LORD LANGDALEexpressed himself in favour of the abolition of all fees in courts of justice. Justice ought to be administered without any expense to the suitors; and all persons engaged in its administration ought to be paid by salaries, and not by fees. This Bill left the fees as they now were, and made no mention of any salaries.
LORD STANLEYthought that such Bills as the present ought to be introduced under the responsibility of Government. Individual Members ought not to be allowed to introduce Bills regulating offices, some on one principle, and another on another.
EARL GREYunderstood that this Bill originated with a Committee of the other House, appointed to examine into the whole question of fees and salaries. The chair-man of that Committee had introduced the Bill, and after its introduction it had been supported by the Solicitor General as a desirable measure.
Bill read 2a, and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.
House adjourned to Thursday next.