Sitting of 11 March 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Fees (Court of Common Pleas); Chief Justices' Salaries; Consolidated Fund (8,000,000 l.); Court of Session (Scotland).
3° Registrar of Metropolitan Public Carriages.

THE CEYLON COMMITTEE.
MR. S. WORTLEYsaid, he was anxious to call the attention of the House and the public to a matter of considerable importance as related to the privileges of that House, and to the conduct of inquiries before its Committees. He had the honour,
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or the misfortune, as the case might be, to be a Member of the Ceylon Committee, which was a select one; and he believed the ordinary rule was that the proceedings of Select Committees should be conducted with closed doors. The Ceylon Committee had had referred to it questions of importance, involving personal charges against high functionaries in that colony; and the Committee, in order to make their inquiries as public and as satisfactory as possible, had up to this time allowed the proceedings to be carried on in public, admitting the public to the Committee rooms. Unfortunately, however, this liberty had been abused, and he had the pain of observing in some of the public prints accounts, purporting to be the substance of the evidence taken before this Committee, at a period when the evidence was extremely incomplete, and even in the midst of the examination of one particular witness, and which accounts happened not only to be incorrect, but were extremely partial, and calculated to do great injury to those who were now under charge, and prevent the course of justice. Under these circumstances, he was anxious to ask his hon. Friend the Member for Inverness-shire, as chairman of that Committee, if he felt at liberty to state whether any steps were to be taken by the Committee, to prevent the recurrence of irregularities of the nature he had described?
MR. BAILLIE, in answer to the question of his right hon. Friend, regretted to state that certain portions of the evidence—indeed, he might say, as his hon. Friend had done, very partial reports of the evidence—taken before the Ceylon Committee had appeared in some of the public papers, and the Committee were certainly of opinion that incomplete portions of evidence, selected perhaps by parties who might have a peculiar bias, were calculated to prejudice the ends of justice; and therefore, very unwillingly, they did come to a resolution that day that the proceedings in future should be taken with closed doors, and he thought the Committee perfectly justified in adopting that resolution.

EASTER HOLIDAYS ADJOURNMENT.
LORD R. GROSVENORrose to put a question to the noble Lord at the head of the Government—whether he would move the adjournment of the House so as to include Passion week in the Easter recess? He said he should not have ventured to make the proposition, had it not been re-

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quested to do so by many Members of the House, and encouraged, after mentioning the object to Mr. Speaker and the leading Members of all parties, by their almost unanimous acquiescence. The reasons which influenced those on whose behalf he was speaking and himself were an anxious wish, if compatible with the interests of the State, to have the week immediately preceding Easter week as free as possible from the turmoil of Parliamentary business. He was quite aware that there were many persons of unquestioned piety and the strongest religious feeling who not only did not think it necessary to set apart any special seasons for public and private devotion, but who might regard such observances with dislike; and there were many Members of Parliament who participated in these opinions; and he felt sure that, rejoicing in their own liberty, it would be a matter of gratification to them to see the business of Parliament so conducted as not to inflict pain and discomfort upon those sitting upon the same bench and engaged in the same arduous duties as themselves. Hon. Members would doubtless be desirous of knowing what their previous practice had been. He had, in consulting the journals, found that for the last 20 years the longest Easter vacation had been 22, the shortest, 9 days; the average 14. The House would observe that the shortest would have included the whole of Passion week. But should the House be of opinion that it would conduce to the despatch of public business and to the convenience of Members, especially those from a distance, that a greater certainty should prevail as to the commencement and termination of the Easter recess, and should also consider that we could annually afford the 14 days, which had been the average of the last 20 years; then, as these 14 days had always included 10 working days, by adjourning on the Friday, the 14 would become 16, three Saturdays and Sundays being included (instead of only two, as heretofore) without the sacrifice of a single additional working day. If the exigencies of the country required it, the Government might take the Friday, or the Thursday and Friday in Easter week. But, let the House observe, that by adjourning on the Friday previous to Passion week, they would always secure the greatest practicable amount of private convenience with the smallest possible sacrifice of public business. Those who had had as much Parliamentary experience as himself would,
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he thought, agree with him that the present method of proceeding was unsatisfactory. No one knew what to fix for that particular week, because, for some time, he did not know when Parliament would rise, and no one liked to risk a Motion of any importance at a time when, for one reason or another, so many Members would be absent. Sometimes, when Parliament bad sat on the Wednesday, there had been no House on the Tuesday; at other times there had been no House on the day of meeting again; in short, it was the conviction of many besides himself, that by their present practice they lost more time than they gained, and, at all events, business was transacted in a slovenly manner. He believed this year it would not be possible to adjourn till Monday, the 25th; but as, until to-morrow, no notices would be given for the Tuesday in Passion week, and as he thought no one would like to risk a Motion of importance for the chance of a House on that day, he did not see why the adjournment might not take place on Monday. He therefore made this request as a matter of feeling on behalf of many Members of the House and many persons out of the House, who depended in their business upon the movements of Parliament. He asked it for the comfort and convenience of the Irish and Scotch Members, and for the more regular and satisfactory discharge of public business. He did not expect his noble Friend to be able to predict how long his tenure of office would be, nor what the future exigencies of the country; but he begged him to endeavour in future years so to arrange public business as to enable the House to adjourn as a matter of course on the Friday before Passion week; not to meet again, at the earliest, till after Easter Tuesday, and, if possible, to give them a holyday during the ten working days which upon an average of the last 20 years the House had been accustomed to enjoy.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, it was usual to adjourn for the Easter recess on the Wednesday or Thursday of Passion week; but, in the present year, he proposed that they should adjourn on the Tuesday of Passion week to Monday, the 8th of April. He had already stated the proposal which he meant to make to the House; but his noble Friend asked him to propose the adjournment from the Friday preceding, in order to include Passion week. He could only say that on the present occasion such a course would be exceedingly inconvenient

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as regarded the public business, as they proposed to bring forward the financial statement much earlier than was usually done, and therefore the estimates and some other public business would necessarily not come on upon the days on which otherwise they would have been taken up. He would therefore adhere to the arrangement he had already stated, that they should adjourn on the Tuesday of Passion week. That was one day earlier than usual, and two days earlier than had been the case on many occasions. If in future it was proposed that the Easter recess should include Passion week, in the way suggested by the noble Lord, that proposal would of course be considered by the Government on its own grounds; but for the present year he could not propose the adjournment earlier than he had stated.

THE NATIONAL GALLERY.
MR. OGLErose to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it was the intention of the trustees of the National Gallery to persevere in cleaning the pictures of the old masters; and also, whether they contemplated removing the pictures of the Royal Academicians from that part of the building now appropriated to them?
LORD J. RUSSELLreplied, that he found on inquiry that no pictures had been ordered to be cleaned during the last two years. At the same time it was right to say that the trustees were satisfied with what had already been done, and were not of opinion that any injury had been done to the pictures by cleaning. With respect to the hon. Gentleman's further question, no arrangement had been finally made with regard to the National Gallery. It was a question at present under the consideration of the Government, whether in some way greater room might not be provided for the pictures recently given by individuals to the institution, and especially for the Vernon collection. But it was not now in contemplation to remove the pictures exhibited in the Royal Academy from their present position.

AFFAIRS OF GREECE.
MR. SMYTHEwished to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether a document which had been published in the public journals, and which purported to be a despatch from Count Nesselrode to Baron Brunow, was genuine in its substance, and authentic in its description?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: A despatch to the same effect (together with another: despatch) from Count Nesselrode to Baron; Brunow, was communicated to Her Majesty's Government not many days ago by Baron Brunow.
MR. SMYTHE: Perhaps the noble Lord would also say, as it is important and necessary to have complete information on the subject, whether he would have any objection to lay on the table of the House not only those two particular dispatches to which he refers, but any other notes that may have been addressed by those Powers to the noble Lord, and which may immediately or directly have been provoked; by the last untoward event?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I am preparing the communications to lay before Parliament as soon as the time for doing so shall arrive. They will be a continuation of those documents which have already appeared before Parliament. I thought it right, in submitting to Parliament these papers, to stop at the moment when instructions were given to commence reprisals. The instructions given to the Minister at Athens will be laid before Parliament at no distant period.
MR. E. DENISON: My noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs has said that certain papers connected with the affairs of Greece will be laid on the table of the House at the proper time. I wish to ask my noble Friend whether he means to say that a certain necessary time is requisite for the preparation of those papers, or whether there are any events now in course of proceeding which must be brought to a close before the proper time will arrive for those papers to be laid on the table of the House?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: My hon. Friend knows that the usual course is not to lay before Parliament papers connected with negotiations still going on and pending, as it is obvious that much inconvenience would arise from that. The present state of the matter is, that the French Government has offered its good offices with a view to the settlement of the question between England and Greece, and that negotiation I can hardly say is going on, because we have no account so late as the arrival of the French negotiator at Athens. Until that negotiation is brought to a point, ray hon. Friend and the House must feel that laying statements on the table from day to day regarding those transactions would not conduce to the in-

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terest of the public, or give to the House any information on which it could form a distinct opinion.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House went into Committee of Supply.
On the first vote being read, namely, that 99,128 men should be voted for the ensuing year.
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, he was sorry that the vote now put into the Chairman's hand had not been agreed to on Friday night; for the consequence was, that he should have to make a more detailed statement than he would otherwise have inflicted on the Committee. He was sure, however, that his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose felt that, in opposing the vote on Friday, he had no other alternative but to adopt the course he had taken. He now begged to call the attention of the Committee not only to this vote, but also to the general state of the Army; and he asked their attention to that explanation, which it was usual for a person in his position to give them annually, with reference both to the strength of, and expenditure for, the Army. He had put into the Chairman's hands the vote with reference to the number of men, and it would be perceived from the Army Estimates that the number to be voted for the service of this year was 99,128; the number voted for the service of the current year was 103,154, showing a decrease in the ensuing year of 4,126 of all ranks, namely, of 128 officers, 303 non-commissioned officers, and the remaining number of privates. Out of that force of 99,128 which was proposed to be voted, 59,398 men were on home service, and 39,730 were upon colonial service. Of the troops on colonial service 9,688 belonged to colonial corps, and therefore there were 30,042 men of the line liable to be relieved periodically in different parts of the world. Let them, then, look to the 59,398 men they had at home, and after deducting from them the cavalry and household troops, to the extent of 6,000, and deducting also the numbers of the Guards, essentially a corps for home service, they would have, to relieve those 39,730 men serving in the colonies, 45,540 stationed at home; and he thought the Committee would admit, on viewing the matter in that point of view, that the vote called for was not excessive. With regard to this number they were told the other night that the
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number of men they maintained in the Army was more than was required, not only in point of number, but also in point of charge. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding said that he would propose to reduce the charge in the estimates to the extent of 5,823,000 l Now, taking one-third of that to be effect-ed upon the Army—namely, a charge of 1,941,000 l., he (Mr. F. Maule) presumed that his hon. Friend would not interfere in this reduction with the non-effective branch of the Army. That was a service which had been carefully investigated from time to time; it was one which appeared to him to be a necessary burden on the public, and which it would be impossible to reduce otherwise than by carefully watching and effecting reductions as vacancies occurred. Therefore, it appeared to him that the reduction could not apply to the non-effective branch of the service. Then let them see how the effective branch of the service stood. They proposed to have 99,128 men, at a charge of 3,936,582 l. Let them take with that the sum which he calculated was proposed to be reduced by his hon. Friend—namely, a sum of 1,941,000 l., and there would remain a sum for the effective service of the Army of 1,995,582 l.; and he asked what force would that maintain? He would turn to the year 1835—the year to which his hon. Friend had so pointedly alluded. He (Mr. F. Maule) found, from the calculation made in 1835, that over the whole Army, taking in all the charges of the land force, and calculating that by the number of rank and file in the Army, the charge per man was 43 l. 15 s. 11 d. Now, if they divided that 1,995,582 l. by 40—taking the expense of each at 40 l. per man—it would maintain an army for service in the colonies, and for reliefs for the colonies, and for the maintenance of the service at home, to say nothing of the dignity and honour of the country, of 50,000 men. That, he apprehended, was a number so infinitely below the standard of his hon. Friend in 1835, when they had 81,000 men, that he must at least have recourse to some other calculation before he could take from the effective branch of the army expenditure so largo a sum. His hon. Friend went on to say that the Army since 1835 had been increased from time to time, and that all those additions had been studiously maintained, and that they had never gone back in their steps. It was quite true that from 1835 there were repeated

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additions to the strength of their Army both at home and abroad. He found in 1835 the Army did not exceed 81,271 men; but in the year 1838 disturbances arose in Canada, an insurrection of a very formidable nature took place, and the Army was immediately increased to 89,305 men. It was increased in the following year to 93,000 men, and in the year 1840 certain colonial corps were raised, and not only with the sanction of the House, but on the urgent representation of Members of the House, that the service in the colonies would be performed far more economically by a certain force of colonial corps—the number then amounted to 95,628. In the year 1842 troops were required for emergencies that had arisen in India and China, and the Army was increased to 101,455. In the year 1846, the Government of the country came down to the House with a supplementary estimate, which was cordially approved of by the House, and the force was then augmented to 108,608 men. In 1849 the number was raised still further to 113,847, which was the highest number; and that occurred in this way—several regiments were sent home from the Indian establishment after the general actions on the Sutlej, under the opinion that India was to see no more war. The very next year a similar number of regiments was required for India; and had those to which he had just referred been dismissed immediately on their return, as the hon. Gentleman would have them do, the consequence would have been that the expense would have been doubled. That must show the hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding, that it would not be the wisest or most economical course to adopt, at the moment they had some additional men to reduce them, without waiting for some time. Then they came to a turning point, and the amount was reduced last year from 113,847 to 103,254, and this year the number was to be reduced from 103,254 to 99,128. That, he admitted, was still an increase on the force of 1835, amounting to 17,857 men; but taking into consideration all the duties that had been added since 1835, he felt they were fully justified in keeping up the increased force they at present maintained. It had been said by the hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding, that if their colonies were to have the power of self-control and government, it was but fair those colonies should maintain the force they sent out, as he said, in the form of a military police; but as he (Mr. F.
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Maule) maintained, in the form of a military protection. That was a policy not entirely unknown to the Government. So far as barracks went, and finding lodgings for troops, the noble Earl the Colonial Secretary had called upon the local Government of Canada to find barrack accommodations at Montreal, and the noble Earl had also called upon the local Government of Australia to maintain barrack establishments and lodgings for the troops in that colony. That was one step in the direction which his hon. Friend referred to; and he was by no means prepared to say, that as the colonies increased in wealth and importance, and as they required a body of troops from this country to protect their interest, they should not contribute, as some did at present—the Ionian Isles—for the protection the mother country afforded to them. He was quite prepared to maintain that there was scarcely one of their colonies in that position that they could be thrown on their own military resources, and it was the bounden duty of the mother country to maintain troops in those colonies for their protection. It would appear that it was the opinion of the hon. Member for the West Riding that there were too many officers kept up in the Army. His (Mr. F. Maule's) experience lead him to a very different conclusion. His experience had always been that the officers of the British Army were the worst paid, and the hardest working class of public servants, he knew of. He asked them to look to the pay of the officers of a regiment, and, in the first place, to look to the pay of a lieutenant-colonel. He would treat it in a mercantile way, so that it might be perfectly plain to the understandings of mercantile men. The lieutenant-colonel, to arrive at that rank in the Army, paid 4,540 l. for his commission, and his pay for commanding a regiment was 365 l. If they deducted from the price of his commission the interest, at five per cent, which was but a fair deduction, amounting to 220 l., and 20 l. for regimental expenses, which he had no alternative but to incur, and deduct the income tax—11 l.—on his pay, it would, in all, amount to 258 l, leaving a sum of 107 l. as the pay of a lieutenant-colonel for the duty he undertakes. A major, taking all similar deductions, received 93 l. 15 s.; a captain rather more—108 l.: a lieutenant 85 l.; and an ensign 73 l,. 5s. 10 d. per annum. Yet these were the men whose organisation was said to be so extravagant. Then, so far from the Army being kept up

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for the aristocracy in this country, the aristocracy held but a very small portion of the commissions. In all the increase that took place since 1835, under successive Governments, care had been taken to increase the officers in very small proportions indeed as compared with the men. The increase of officers as compared with the men gave one officer to 152 men. But the reduction of officers was quite another thing. When they reduced the men they reduced them generally, without any great burden being placed upon the public; but if they reduced officers to any extent, they would have to begin, in the first instance, by placing a permanent burden on the public. And in the next place, they would destroy the efficiency of the public service; for their object always should be to keep up such an establishment of officers as should enable them, at the shortest possible notice, to raise a largo number of men, and make them efficient for the public service. If they departed from that system, they would find it more costly than pursuing their present course. One more remark with regard to the cavalry regiments. He admitted that what had been said with regard to the cavalry regiments was perfectly correct. It was perfectly true that the cavalry regiments had more officers, in proportion to the men, than the service actually required; but those who knew anything of the cavalry service must recollect that some years ago they were reduced to nearly skeleton regiments, which were capable of being increased whenever an emergency required it. And if a cavalry regiment was called to the field, as was some time ago the case at the Cape of Good Hope, its numbers would be increased, but without any increase of officers; and all cavalry officers were clear upon the point that, to meet an emergency, they must have their officers well trained and disciplined. It was on that principle that cavalry regiments could alone be maintained; and he thought that the principle was very admissible. He had stated that we had but 45,000 men at home to supply reliefs to 39,000 serving in the colonies, and 30,000 serving in India—that is, they had but 45,000 to be ready at all times to supply reliefs for 69,000 men serving abroad, and his right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester had remarked that that Indian service had entailed an expense on the country beyond that stated in the Army estimates. He stated that the East India Company paid the troops of the line that were employed in India, yet that they threw back
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upon the pension-list and half-pay list a considerable burden. It was quite true that a burden of that description did arise for the number of men that served in the East Indies; but what was their per contra for that? The East India Company paid every year 60,000 l. into the Treasury to meet that expenditure, and other expenditure for officers and men of the Queen's service employed in India. Another remark had been made with reference to the proportion of officers to men in the British service. On referring to that, he found that in the year 1835 the proportion of officers to men was 1 officer to 17 men; in the present year they had 1 officer to 20 men; but if his hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding turned to the army of a country which found great favour with his hon. Friend, the standing army of North America, which they might be sure was not maintained for the sake of an aristocracy, they would find in the small army of 17,000 men in the United States 775 officers, making 1 officer to 21 men. That was the argument he had to adduce to the House for maintaining the proposition he had laid before it, that 99,128 should constitute the number of men to be employed during the ensuing year. The necessity for having at home a sufficient number of men to relieve those abroad, was a strong ground for maintaining the force he had asked for; and if any one would refer to the speech of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth in 1843, they would find that the right hon. Gentleman had stated in stronger and better language than he (Mr. F. Maule) could use, "that they should so organise their force at home as not to expatriate for want of relief their force abroad." They had now arrived at a routine of ten years of colonial service, and if the House meant to retain that routine, they should give to the Government the means of maintaining a force for the purpose. In addition to that consideration, attention should be given to the times in which they lived; and consideration should be given to the position which this country held amidst other nations of the world. They should have this country in such a position with regard to its military force that it could not be subjected to wanton insult from other countries taking advantage of its defenceless situation. What was the strength of the army in France? It consisted of 430 128 men, besides the Gendarmerie, 23,756, and almost innumerable hosts of National Guards. The Prussian army

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consisted of 325,300 men, besides the Landwehr of the first and second class, which amounted to 450,000 men. The Austrian army consisted of no less, at this moment, than 352 generals, 2,084 staff officers, 16,545 officers, 49,673 non-commissioned officers, and 539,880 privates, making a total of 608,534. He did not say that this country was to run a race with the military establishments of other countries; but he would say that, considering the position this country held amongst the other nations of Europe, which were almost armed cap-à-pie, it would ill befit this country to maintain itself merely in a situation to give relief to its troops required on colonial service, without retaining some margin for the defence of its interests at home, and the maintenance of its dignity amongst the nations of Europe. He thought on this ground, with regard to the number of men, he had shown sufficient reason why the Committee should accede to the proposition of the Government, and grant in the present year 99,128 men. And now he would come to the charge for the present year; and in discussing that he would also follow it by a cursory and rapid view of the other votes in the estimates; and his reason for not entering more fully into those votes was simply this, that those estimates were now lying before the Committee upstairs, and that Committee was carefully engaged in investigating every item, and would report upon them to the House. Therefore, all he would do was to give to the Committee a cursory knowledge of each vote. The charge for the land force was, during the present year, 3,562,430 l.; and the charge in the last estimates was 3,655,588 l; showing a decrease of 93,1582. upon this estimate. The cost for the staff in 1849, amounted to 173,3762., and this year it amounted to 164,9162., showing a reduction of 8,4602.; He would call the attention of his hon. Friend, who complained that officers were not reduced in proportion to the men, that in the home service there were reduced on the staff two general officers, two aides-decamp, five assistant-adjutants-general, two majors of brigade, and one fort-adjutant; and on foreign service one lieutenant-general and one major-general of a district. The charge for the public department was last year 94,199 l, this year 92,6842.; showing a decrease of 1,5152. The decrease on salaries would have been greater, as the reduction in the civil department on salaries was 2,2172., and on account of postage
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561 l.; but in the military department there was an increase on salaries of 191 l., and on postage of 1,072 l., thus making the real saving 1,515 l. The vote for the Military College was last year 17,408 l., and for this year 16,895 l., making a decrease of 513 l. The vote for the Military Asylum and Hibernian School was last year 19,298 l., and this year 18,657 l., being a decrease of 641 l. He should enter more fully into this vote by and by. He would only now observe that the decrease would have been greater but for some little additional expenses for building a house for the master of the Hibernian school. It was, however, a self-sustaining establishment. The next vote was for the volunteer corps of yeomanry cavalry, upon which there was an increase as compared with last year of 14,714 l. This increase had been caused ill consequence of its having been determined last year that the yeomanry should not be called out for permanent duty. It was, however, absolutely necessary, in order to insure the proper discipline of the corps, that they should have the opportunity during the present year of assembling for the purpose of drill. These items constituted the whole of the effective service of the Army, and as compared with last year, this branch showed a decrease of 89,573 l. The next aeries of votes would be those on account of the non-effective service. The first vote would be that for distinguished military services, amounting to 15,112 l. The sum voted last year under this head was about the same, being 15,120 l., a decrease of 8l. The old staff appointments were well considered some years ago, and certain of them were set apart as rewards for distinguished military services. The garrison appointments vacated during the last year were the surgeon of the Portsmouth garrison and the Governor of St. Mawe's. The next item was the pay of general officers, amounting for the year 1850–51 to 58,000 l., the amount taken under the same vote in 1849–50 being 78,908 l., showing a decrease of 20,908 l. In the vote of last year, however, there was included a sum of 13,908 l., for arrears of pay due to General Murray at the date of his death; the real decrease upon this head, therefore, for the year would be about 7,000 l. The decrease in the number of officers on the list, as compared with 1849–50, was 17. As compared with 1835, there was a decrease upon the whole of this vote of 55,648 l. The third vote was that of the retired full-pay, upon which, as

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compared with the vote of 1835, there was a decrease of 23,000 l The amount required for the present year was 54,500 l; in the year 1849–50 it was 56,000 l, being a decrease of 1,500 l. The half-pay list, which was always a very formidable item in the estimates, showed a very fair proportionate decrease as compared with former years. The amount required for this year was 386,000 l.; in 1849–50 it was 400,000 l; being a decrease of 14,000 l. In the year 1835 the vote was 585,600 l, showing a decrease of 199,500 l since that year. The number of officers that had fallen off during the last year from this list was 234, the number placed on was 87. He might say that no one had been placed on the list who had not earned the reward by due length of service. The next vote to which he would call the attention of the Committee was one including the charge of half-pay and reduced allowances to officers of disbanded foreign corps, the amount required for the present year being 42,200 l.., being a diminution in the estimate of 1,956 l. as compared with 1849–50; and as compared with 1835–6, of not less than 35,880 l. For widows' pensions, the amount required for the present year was 126,636 l.; in the last year the same vote was 128,778 l.; being a decrease of 2,242 l. The number of widows who had been removed from the list during the year was 56; while two only had been placed upon it; showing a decrease of 54 as compared with 1849–50; and as compared with 1835, the reduction in the number had been to the extent of 692. The decrease from the year 1835 was 22,693 l. For the Compassionate Fund, the sum required would be 91,000 l; in 1849–50 the amount was 95,500 l.; being a decrease of 4,500 l. Since 1835, there had been a decrease upon this vote of 68,000 l. The charges for the in-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals showed an increase of 215 l., the amount required being for the ensuing year 35,756 l. whereas in the last year it was 35,541 l. There was a decrease in the charge for hospital expenses, but it was expected that in all probability there would be an increase in the claim for prize money, and a sum of 2,000 l. was included in the estimates to meet that contingency. The charge for the out-pensioners, which was always the largest in the non-effective service, amounted in the last year to 1,224,052 l.; the charge for the present year would be 1,233,711 l., showing an increase of 9,659 l. This increase was not for any increase in
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the number of pensioners upon the list—on the contrary, the number was reduced; but for several years past it had been the custom to calculate for the casualties and deaths a sum of 39,000 l. This sum not representing accurately the amount of the casualties, had occasioned for several years past an excess of expenditure over the amount usually voted. In the ensuing year credit had only been taken for 20,000 l. on account of casualties, instead of 39,000 l. which alteration made an apparent increase in the amount required, as it was considered preferable to take a sufficient amount upon vote, rather than to show upon the balance-sheet an excess of expenditure over the amount voted. The decrease under this head since 1835 was 68,119 l. The last vote for the non-effective service was for superannuations. Last year the vote was 38,000 l.; this year it "was 40,000 l, being an increase of 2,000 l. This occured by an increase to the Commander-in-chief's department of 400 l.; to the War Office, 812 l; to the Adjutant General's department, 43 l.; and to Chelsea Hospital, 975 l., making 2,230 l., from which was to be deducted a decrease in other departments of 230 l. By a recapitulation of the votes for the non-effective service, there was shown to be a saving on the estimates of this year as compared with the last of 33,241 l.; and upon the whole of the estimates for effective and non-effective services there was a saving of 122,814 l. During the last few years many whose valuable services were acknowledged by all, and for whom the greatest respect was entertained, had found themselves compelled to retire upon their hardly-earned retiring pensions, some of whom were so completely worn out in the public service that within a very short period of their retirement they had died.
Before he quited this part of the subject he wished to answer the charge that when the Government had arrived at a large armament they were not disposed to go back again. In the 1848–49 the number of men voted for the effective service was 113,847, the gross charge was 4,356,750 l.; in 1850–51 the number of men proposed to be voted was 99,128, and the gross charge wos 3,936,582 l.; the decrease in the effective service was 14,719, and the charge was 420,168 l. In 1848–49 the non-effective service was 73,340, and the charge 2,164,085 l. In 1850–51, the men were 71,529, and the charge 2,082,815 l. The total decrease on the two services since 1848–49 was, men, 16,530; charge,

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501,438 l. But let him compare the army establishments as they were at present with what they were in 1835. In 1835 the charge for the Army and the Militia was 6,126,643 l.; in the year 1850–51 the charge for the Army and Militia was 6,129,247 l., making an increase only on the army and militia services since 1835 of 2,604 l. So that if 1835 were to be taken as a standard in point of charge, they were very much nearer to that estimate than the hon. Member for the West Riding appeared to be aware of. But although they so nearly approximated to the charge of that year, he did not mean to say that the Government were to remain stationary at that point, but would continue to make such further reductions as should be found consistent with the efficiency and dignity of the service, and would be prepared to carry out every reasonable and well-considered reform. There were one or two other points connected with the Army to which he should wish to call the attention of the Committee, as they tended greatly to the promotion of the discipline, the comfort, and the character of the Army. The first point to which he would allude was that of military imprisonment, which had placed upon the army establishments a considerable charge since 1835. The expenses of those committed to prison, he was, however, happy to state, had been more than covered by the sums deducted from their pay in the course of this year. He was also happy to state that a considerable improvement had taken place in the character and conduct of the Army, when measured by the numbers committed to military prisons. It was also satisfactory that the number of young men committed to military prisons from the ranks had been gradually decreasing for the last three years. In 1847, the number committed under 20 years of age was 1,126; in 1848, 981; and in 1849, 589. The number of men committed, of two years' service, was, in 1847, 1,656; in 1848, 1,590; and in 1849, 1,000. He felt confident that a continuance in the present mode of education would tend to produce a great decrease in the number of committals. There were many other items connected with this interesting subject, but he would allude only to one of them. But as the system of imprisonment now pursued by the Army had been much commented and animadverted upon, and misrepresented in many cases, he took this opportunity of stating that the alteration
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had been sanctioned by military persons of high authority, and, as far as he himself had observed it, he considered that the system had worked well, and had had a very salutary effect upon the Army. Formerly when soldiers were committed to prison they were allowed to go to bed at a certain hour at night and to rise at a certain hour in the morning, thus giving them a constant succession of good nights' rest. It was suggested by the Inspector General of Prisons that, without at all injuring the health of the men, or interfering with the practice of their previous life, it would be a proper regulation to make that every other night the men should sleep actually in the same way as if they were on duty or guard. That regulation had been adopted, and the men who had suffered under it had made a firm resolution never to go hack to prison again. Another point was with regard to the health of the Army. He held in his hand the latest return as to the mortality in the Army at home and abroad. The mortality at home was almost the same as in previous years, except the cases of cholera that occurred, and those he was happy to say were comparatively very few in the Army, as the epidemic did not fall upon the soldier with half the severity with which it visited the civilian. But, so far as the returns had been received from abroad, the improvement of the health of the Army, generally speaking, was very great. He found that the following was the ratio of mortality per 1,000 of the strength among the troops serving on foreign stations for the year ending March 31, 1849, compared with the average of the previous 10 years:—British Guiana, 1848–9,142, average of previous 10 years, 97.9; Trinidad, 33.0, average as above, 102.9; Tobago, 98.6, compared to 75.9; Grenada, 12.3, compared to 43.4; St. Vincent's, 6.0, compared to 66.1; Barbadoes, 128.8, compared to 42.9; St. Lucia, 17.4, compared to 67.6; Dominica, 40.4, compared to 132.3; Antigua, 10.9, compared to 63.2; St. Kitt's, 19.4, compared to 105.6; Windward and Leeward combined, 68.4, compared to 67.6; Jamaica, 48.3, compared to 66.9; Gibraltar, 8.4, compared to 11.1; Malta, 30.1, compared to 15.1; Ionian Islands, 23.1, compared to 15.5; Bermuda, 8.4, compared to 27.2; Newfoundland, 10.3, compared to 9.1; Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, 19.7, compared to 13.0; Canada, 15.6, compared to 12.6; St. Helena, 8.4, compared to 15.4; Cape of Good Hope, 13.3,

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compared to 12.9; the Mauritius, 14.6, compared to 24.3; Ceylon, 21.5, compared to 41.4; Madras, 22.4, average of 20 years 76,1; Bengal (the return from this place is for the year ending March 31, 1848), 61.3, compared to 75.7; Bombay, 26.6, compared to 62.5; New South Wales and New Zealand, 8.3, average of 10 years 14.0; Van Diemen's Land, 9.6, compared to 14.0. The establishment of the regimental schools in the Army, which had been commenced in 1846, had been productive of a great amount of good. From the last quarterly returns which had been sent in, there were in 21 schools not less than 2,289 non-commissioned officers and men. He firmly believed that were these schools more generally established, a better educated body of men could not be collected together than the non-commissioned officers and men of the British Army. He was also happy to inform the House that the same plan of education had been adopted with respect to the upper ranks of the Army. There was no part in which a soldier more narrowly watched his commanding officer than in that of intelligence, and if a man once thought that he knew more than his officer, he would lose that feeling of respect which it was necessary that every soldier should feel towards his officer. His Grace the Commander-in-chief had recently insisted upon all officers undergoing an examination before they entered the service; and he hoped soon to see the time when no officer would be promoted to the rank of captain without undergoing an examination before he attained to that position. He would only add, that he had been assured upon the highest authority that both with respect to officers and men, the Army was in a state of which this country might well boast; that it was prepared at all points to meet the enemy in the field; that it had shown every disposition at all times and upon all occasions to live at peace, in harmony, and good-fellowship with its fellow citizens in every part, not only of this country, but of the whole extent of the British empire.
MR. HUMEsaid, that he most heartily concurred in the concluding portion of the speech of his right hon. Friend, He was happy to find that so much had been done to promote the discipline, the health, and education of the Army. He had heard from the present distinguished Commander-in-chief that the number of lashes given at one time should now be limited to 50, and it was a great satisfaction to have
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heard him say that even that number might in time be reduced. He never said that the pay of the men or officers of the Army was too high. The only difference that existed between him and his right hon. Friend was as to the numbers of that Army. He believed that the manner in which the accounts were kept in his right hon. Friend's office might be a pattern to every office; and he was glad to hear the results which, from those accounts, his right hon. Friend had been able to lay before that House respecting the present state of the Army; and he said so because he had been told in former years, on both sides of the House, by officers of the highest rank, that British soldiers were not to be treated like other men, and that only the lash could keep them in order. Year after year that doctrine was supported, and he was regarded as a theorist for opposing it. It was true that care had been paid to the localities of the barracks, and that had tended to reduce the mortality amongst the troops. He was bound also to admit that great attention had been shown to the accommodation of the men in barracks. But still let the House consider the situation in which the country was placed in a financial point of view. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth would remember that in 1828, in consequence of the public outcry against the expenditure, he was obliged to nominate a Committee of Finance to consider our establishments, and effect a reduction in the various departments; but the searching inquiries they made were considered too great, and they were not allowed in the following year to finish the work they had begun. In that year the expenditure was 50,000,000 l; but he was sorry to say that since that time they had increased the expenditure, except during the last two years. He maintained, however, that there was no necessity for the increase during the intervening years. They had not yet heard the financial statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he thought he might take the expenditure for the present year, allowing for reductions, at between 50,000,000 l. and 51,000,000 l. If the House should decide that the number of men at present composing the Army should be continued, then they could not turn round and refuse to pass the Estimates. He held in his hand the report of the Committee, of which the late Sir Henry Parnell was chairman, in reference to the

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Army and Navy question, and which report stated that—
"the Army and Nary were a great source of expenditure, and it was only by keeping them within a proper limit that a saving could be established. During a period of peace, the Committee should advert to the necessity of turning a time of tranquillity to the improvement of the revenue, to retrenchment, and economy; and they bogged to impress such on the serious attention of the House."
That Committee sat in 1819. Now, on former occasions he used to refer to the period of 1792; and he was then in a position to show that every Finance Committee that sat up to the period of 1828 had directed the attention of the House to the necessity of keeping a low establishment in view, in order to strengthen the credit of the country by improving its finances, and by being prepared, in case of necessity, with a full exchequer to supply the sinews of war; while, under the present system, they had been expending not only the amount of their revenue, but beyond the amount of their revenue. Within the last twelve years, they had added nearly 40,000,000 l. to their debt. Here they were at present in a condition to benefit themselves, if they would only take a lesson from the Finance Committees that sat at various periods up to the present. The question he wished to ask was, did they require the number of men they were then about to take a vote for? He asserted they did not; and the right hon. Gentleman who preceded him had given no reason whatever to show that such a number should be voted. In 1835 and 1836, the number of men in the Army amounted to 80,000; but owing, as was said, to the rebellion in Canada, they increased in 1837 to 89,000; in 1838 they increased to 93,000; so that, owing to the rebellion in Canada, which was temporary, the Army was increased 13,000 men up to 1838. No man would say that at present Canada, with its state of government, required an increase of soldiery. His right hon. Friend the Secretary at War had stated that in 1840 colonial corps were raised, and he (Mr. Hume) was one of those who approved of such corps, because he saw in them the saving of transit of troops backwards and forwards. The noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs declared before a Committee that "two-thirds of the troops of Great Britain were retained for the purpose of relieving those abroad;" and therefore it was only reasonable to approve of colonial corps, as they
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undoubtedly decreased the public expenditure. Now, he thought, by the showing of his right hon. Friend, that they were entitled to a reduction of the troops at home by reason of the colonial corps. But the case was far different; for in 1846, instead of a reduction, they had the troops increased to 108,000, instead of 80,000, in 1835; and what reason was adduced? Why, the state of the country. In the following year, 1847, the troops numbered 113,000; and in that year he took the sense of the House as to whether retrogression would not be the better policy; but the Government met him with the statement that "they wanted troops for India,": where at the time he believed there was war. Well, at present there was peace in India, and why were not these men reduced? He wished to know why recruiting-should not be stopped for twelve months? He did not wish that efficient men should be discharged or disbanded; but, if they wished to make a reduction, they should discontinue recruiting. He wished next to come to the present period, and to ask why we should require an estimate for upwards of 99,000 men? He considered that his right hon. Friend had failed to make out a case in support of the estimates, and the House should, therefore, without hesitation, adopt the recommendations of all Finance Committees from 1828 upwards, and reduce the number of men. The question might be asked, would you reduce them altogether, or at various times? His answer was this:—Instead of 99,128, now sought to be voted, he would take 89,000; and the year following he would reduce the number to 80,000, which should be regarded as a fair and gradual reduction. In reference to the system of purchase which prevailed amongst the officers, he would wish to see that system done away with altogether. He was in favour of the system that promoted men from the ranks for merit and service, instead of making promotion a mercantile principle. A good deal had been said about "reliefs to India." He would be sorry to see any regiment stationed more than ten years in India, though he had known regiments to be eighteen years in India; but he condemned that principle, as, in his opinion, it amounted to a banishment for life of their best officers. He thought he had shown that the revenues exacted from the people now were as heavy as in 1828, and also that the expenditure, which had been reduced to 44,000,000 l., at

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present rose as high as 50,000,000 l., showing within the period an excess of some 6,000,000 l. He would now come to the number of men. In 1834 they had 80,000 men, which number continued up to the Canadian rebellion, when they increased to 89,000 men, and in the next year to 93,000 men, and so on until they numbered 113,000. He contended there had been no circumstance to warrant such an increase in the country's expenditure, and that at present they were in a position to commence a reduction. If he spoke of economy, he was told that it was the old argument of pounds, shillings, and pence; but, after all, that was the real argument. The establishment which the Finance Committee of 1792 recommended was 45,242 for Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies. He was not prepared to return to that number at present, but possibly they might come by and by to it, when the colonies were their own managers, and took upon themselves their own police. 30,000 men, or a large portion at least, might then be withdrawn from the colonies; and the time might come, though he might not be in that House to hear it, when they would be able to return to the old establishment of 1792, or very near it. They had heard no reason for maintaining a large army, except that France and Prussia were doing so; but when the First Commissioner of the Admiralty proposed to keep up a large fleet, because France was extending hers, he protested against that doctrine—and he did so now. We had paid a severe penalty in the shape of 600,000,000 l. of debt for fighting the battles of the Continent; and if war should again arise, it might not be in the power of any House of Commons to adopt such a course again. And, on the other hand, instead of trusting to the maintenance of a large army to keep the peace of the country, let Parliament grant to the people the reforms he considered to be their right, and let the policy of this country rest on the contentment of the people, and not on force. But the right hon. Gentlemen who now sat on the Treasury benches seemed to have become Tories. There must be something infectious in the seats, for he could bring before the House speeches of the noble Lord at the head of the Government, telling the Tories in times past, year after year, not to trust to bayonets or large military establishments, but to depend on the fidelity of the people, and their interest to maintain peace; but the
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noble Lord was now equally ready to maintain the contrary doctrine, and that large establishments must be kept up. He would advise hon. Gentlemen not to take the opinion of any Secretary at War or Prime Minister, but to judge for themselves of the circumstances of the country. In 1835 the cavalry was 10,880; in 1850 it is 12,850; of foot guards there were, in 1835, 4,782, in 1850 the number is 5,206; of infantry the number was 72,722, it is now 102,312, including those in India; and the colonial corps, which were in 1835, 5,590, are now 9,998—making an aggregate, therefore, of 100,990 in 1835, against 129,625 in 1850. He would contrast the amount of the Army in 1835 with that of the present time, by showing the manner in which it was distributed. The force for Great Britain in 1835 was 23,013, now it was 33,972; for Ireland, in 1835, it was 21,300; now it was 29,400; in the colonies, in 1835, it was 36,941; it was now 39,730; the total amount of our force for Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, in 1835, was 81,271, and at present it was 99,128, being an increase of 17,857. The force in India in 1835 was 14,720, and now it, was 30,497, making the aggregate number of the Army 129,625. However, as India defrayed the expense of the troops stationed there, he would say nothing about them, but confine himself to the force maintained for Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies, which, as he had showed, exceeded that which was sufficient for the same purpose in 1835 by no less than 17,857. This, however, was not the only increase to our armed force since 1835. In addition, there were 10,000 pensioners, and 10,000 labourers in the dockyards enrolled, whilst the English and Irish police had been augmented by about 10,000; in all, 30,000. To return to the increase of 17,857 men over the estimate of 1835, he proposed to reduce it this year by 10,000 men, and to reduce the remaining 7,857 next year. That would effect a saving of expenditure equal in amount to the malt tax and hop duty; and, as there was a surplus of 3,000,000 l., the House might repeal, in addition to those taxes, the taxes on windows and on "knowledge." Savings might also be made by consolidating regiments. The three regiments of horse guards, which numbered only 1,300 men, might very well be thrown into one, and the seventeen other cavalry regiments might be reduced to seven or eight. By such an amalgamation a con-

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siderable saving would be made as regarded officers, barracks, clothing, and other matters. The infantry of the line, numbering 75,178 men, composed no fewer than 100 regiments; but if 1,000 men were apportioned to each regiment, as ought to be the case, an important saving would result. The Secretary at War had not clearly distinguished, in the statement which he had made, between the charges for the effective and non-effective service. In 1835, the charge for the non-effective service was 2,499,000 l; now it was 2,082,000 l., being a reduction of 417,000 l. The right hon. Secretary ingeniously availed himself of this reduction to say that the gross charge for the Army and Militia was only 2,604 l more at present than it was in 1835. But it was the effective force with which the Committee had to deal, and that was augmented from 3,294,000 l. in 1835, to 3,936,000 l. now—an increase amounting to nearly twice as much as the saving made in the noneffective branch. It was of the unnecessarily large charge for the effective service that he and his friends complained, and called upon the Government to reduce it. He did not wish that one single soldier should be discharged; but that the reduction should be effected by a cessation of recruiting, by which means the saving was effected in the four years preceding 1835. Let not the Government think that they would cease to be pressed. The country Gentlemen would be down upon them harder next year than they were then, and it was impossible to afford all the relief required by the nation without a reduction of at least 10,000,000 l. The force had been kept up at its present amount in order to keep down the people, and to deprive them of their rights. How heavily the burden pressed upon the community was illustrated by the fact, which he had recently ascertained by inquiry, that in the parish of Marylebone 600 distress warrants were out for the non-payment of rates, to say nothing of distresses for assessed taxes, of which he intended to move for a return embracing the whole of the country. Through the pressure of the rates, and of taxation, numbers of contributors to the support of the State had been converted into burdens on its resources. Were the reduction which he proposed effected, the force would still amount to more than it was in 1835, including the dock battalions, the pensioners, and the additional police. Let those who
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complained of the income tax bear in mind that, if the Army and Navy had not been increased, that tax would never have been imposed. He pledged himself to struggle for a reduction of 10,000,000 l., as necessary both to prevent pauperism and crime, and to afford the people proper relief and enjoyment, and for each specific diminution he undertook to make out a sufficient case. The English people were an economical people. [Laughter.] He repeated that statement. That they were economical was proved by the fact that they had amassed so much capital; but at present the taxation pressed so heavily on them that they were deprived of the benefit of their economy, and it was on that ground that he asked for reduction. A gentleman named Norman, in the City, had published a pamphlet, the object of which was to show that the people of England were not heavily taxed as compared with those of other countries; but his object in referring to the work was not to combat its doctrine on this occasion, but only to point out an extraordinary misrepresentation that occurred in its second page. It was there stated that his (Mr. Hume's) friend, Mr. John Stuart Mill, maintained that taxation amounted only to this: that Government spent the money, which the people would have to spend if they had not paid the taxes. That was a misrepresentation of Mr. Mill's opinions. ["No!"] Yes, it was. Mr. Mill entertained an opinion the very reverse of that attributed to him. If the noble Lord at the head of the Government would consent to the Amendment, it would relieve him from some of the applications with which he was bothered at present. The Prime Minister must be wretched whilst in office, and he often wondered how any man would accept it. The more he had to give away the more he was pestered by applications, and therefore the noble Lord would get rid of some of his tormentors by assenting to the Amendment.
Motion made, and Question put—
"That a number of land forces, not exceeding 89,128 men (exclusive of the men employed in the territorial possessions of the East India Company), commissioned and non-commissioned officers included, be maintained for the service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, from the 1st day of April, 1850, to the 31st day of March, 1851, inclusive."
MAJOR BLACKALLsaid, he could assure the hon. Gentleman that it was not because of his having been connected with the service that he should oppose the

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Amendment. Having listened attentively to his address, he was of opinion that he had not made out his case. Was there any one of the colonies in which the number of reliefs could be reduced? He had taken the trouble of ascertaining what number of troops of the line were quartered in the different colonies. He found that in the whole of the American colonies there were but eleven regiments of the line. As each regiment had a depot of about 200 men at home, the effective force was only 5,500 men; and, looking at the extent of country to be garrisoned, he thought it could hardly be said that that force was too large. In the West Indies there were seven regiments, or 3,500 men, scattered over the various islands. At the Cape of Good Hope there were five regiments, or 2,500 men. Considering the nature and extent of the frontier to be guarded, and remembering what had occurred within the last few years, he should like to know whether any hon. Member would propose to make a reduction. Were any troops withdrawn, he believed the colonists would soon call out for protection. In Ceylon there were two regiments of the line, or 1,000 men: at Mauritius the same number. In the whole of Australia, including New Zealand and Van Diemen's Land, there were only five regiments of the line, or 2,500 men. At Gibraltar, also, there were five regiments, or 2,500 men; a number which had always been considered requisite to hold it as a military post. At Malta there were two regiments, or 1,000 men; and the same number in China. Such was the disposition of the troops in the colonies; and after this enumeration, he must repeat his belief that the hon. Gentleman had made out no case for the reductions which had been proposed by him. The hon. Gentleman had made a charge against the Army which was hardly fair, namely, that it had been maintained in order to keep down a class. The conduct of the Army afforded a contradiction to that statement; and he must add, that whenever there had been an apprehension of danger in the manufacturing districts, the manufacturers had been the first to demand the aid of the military, and to grumble at their removal.
SIR W. MOLESWORTH: The hon. and gallant Gentleman has declared that my hon. Friend the Member for Montrose has not made out a case for the reduction which he proposes; and the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of War stated that
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the expense of the Army and the Militia at the present moment is very nearly the same as it was in 1835. Now there are two kinds of military expenditure—namely, effective and non-effective. The effective military expenditure is for services actually performing; the non-effective for services performed. The former is under the immediate and direct control of Parliament, and is in proportion to the force maintained, and increases or decreases with the number of men voted. The non-effective expenditure depends upon the number of men which have been employed in previous years, and therefore is removed from the direct and immediate control of Parliament. To judge, therefore, of the increase or retrenchment which has been made in the Army expenditure, the effective expenditure should be alone considered. In 1835 the number of men voted was 81,000, and the estimate for effective services was 3,334,000 l; in 1848, the number of men was 114,000, and the estimate 4,356,000 l. This year the number of men is proposed to be 89,000, and the estimate for them 3,936,000 l.—a decrease therefore as compared to 1848, of 15,000 men, and 420,000 l—an increase, as compared to 1835, of 18,000 men, and 592,000 l Now, ought the force of the Army to be reduced to the standard of 1835 l That force should be divided into two parts, each requiring separate consideration. One part is employed in the foreign possessions of the Crown, the other part at home. With regard to the force at home, I shall say nothing at present. I am not, for many reasons, inclined to strip the centre of the empire of military force; and if we maintain a considerable force in the colonies, we ought to have a considerable force at home to relieve the troops in the colonies. The question, therefore, to which I shall confine myself is, whether there can and ought to be made a considerable reduction in our military force in the colonies. I would call the attention of the Committee to a return printed last year of the expenditure of Great Britain, on account of the colonies, for the year 1846–7. This return gives the expenditure for that year at 3,500,000 l But that sum did not include any indirect expenditure, nor the expenditure on account of the fleets maintained on the colonial stations, which last expenditure, I reckon at not less than 1,000,000 l. a year. Therefore, in my opinion, the direct military, naval, and civil expenditure of Great Britain, on account of the colonies.

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did not amount, in the years 1846–7, to much less than 4,500,000 l I will confine my observations to the military expenditure. According to this return the direct military expenditure of Great Britain on account of the colonies (including ordnance and commissariat expenditure) amounted to 3,000,000 l. in 1846–7: all this expenditure was on account of the effective military force; and as in 1846–7 the whole expenditure of the empire on account of effective military force amounted to 6,600,000 l., it follows that 5–11ths of our effective military expenditure is on account of the colonies; and as in the long run the expenditure on account of noneffective must be in proportion to the effective force which had been previously employed, I am entitled to assert that 8–11ths of our whole military expenditure is on account of the colonies. Now, in the years 1846–7, the whole military expenditure, including ordnance and commissariat, amounted to 9,000,000 l, of which 4,000,000 l. was required in consequence of the force we were maintaining, or had maintained, in the colonies. Therefore the question of the amount of military force to be kept in the colonies is a question with regard to 4,000,000 l. of annual expenditure, consisting directly of. 3,000,000 l. expenditure for effective service, and indirectly of 1,000,000 l. expenditure for non-effective services. It is evident, however, that it is only in the effective expenditure that any immediate reduction can be made. The question therefore is, do we want 41,000 troops in the colonies? If we do, we must pay for them, and we ought to keep an ample force at home to relieve them. We may make some economies here and there, save a few thousands; but I am inclined to think that the Army has been well managed, economically speaking; and I feel persuaded that we cannot reduce the cost of these troops under 4,000,000 l. a year for effective and noneffective expenditure. To ascertain whether the military force in the colonies can be reduced, it is necessary to consider how it is distributed. I have only its distribution in 1848–9, which I will take in connexion with the expenditure for 1846–7. I am sorry that there is no return of the distribution and expenditure of our military force for the same year. Our troops are distributed through three different classes of colonies, namely, military stations, plantations or subjugated territories, and colonies, properly so called. With regard
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to military stations, if the people of England pride themselves on such fortresses as Malta and Gibraltar; if they choose to have the Ionian Islands, and will display their wisdom by laying claim to Sapienza; if they have a mind for St. Helena, Hong-Kong, Labuan, and the Falkland Islands; if they will dot the world over with their troops—why, they must pay for so doing; they must not grudge 500,000 l. a year for effective military expenditure in these places; for the follies of mankind are always the most expensive of their amusements. But I do grudge the expense of 2,500 troops in the Ionian Islands. Our military expenditure on account of these islands has amounted, on an average, to about 130,000 l. a year, or about 4,500,000 l. since the peace. Of that sum we have expended 456,000 l. on military works. We commenced fortifications at Corfu, which were estimated to cost 152,000 l.; they have cost already 356,000 l.; they cannot be completed at less than 90,000 l. more; and when completed at a cost of 450,000 l., they will be so extensive that, in the event of a war, it would not be expedient to keep a sufficient garrison to man them; therefore, in such an event, the wisest plan would be to withdraw our troops, and blow up the fortifications, and we could always reconquer them if there were no fortifications for less than the interest of the capital we have expended upon them since the peace. As military stations they are useless, and their government has not added to our fame in Europe. The hon. and gallant officer the Member for Longford stated that there were only 1,000 troops in Malta; the number was 2,891, including the Maltese for whom this country paid. Next, with regard to our military expenditure in our plantations and subjugated territories. In the West Indies the military force amounts to about 6,500 men, with an effective expenditure of 500,000 l. a year. Is this expenditure necessary? In the Mauritius we keep 1,73 l men, at a cost of about 90,000 l. a year. Since 1828 we have expended 200,000 l. on military works at the Mauritius, and lately we have commenced other new works, part of which is to cost another 200,000 l. These works and troops are said to be required, because the Mauritius is an important military station, and the inhabitants hostile to our dominion, partly from their French origin, partly from Colonial Office misgovernment. There to defend us from foreign and from domestic

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foes from without and from within, sea defences, and land defences, and garrisons are required. In Ceylon, there were not 1,500 men, as had been stated, but nearly 4,000 by the latest return. The hon. and gallant Officer argued that the number of troops had not been increased in those colonies. [Major BLACKALL: I said troops of the line.] There were 1,800 European troops in Ceylon. Ceylon affords a capital instance of the mismanagement, ignorance, and bigotry of the Colonial Office. Mismanagement and ignorance led to injudicious taxes, which occasioned fiscal riots, at the same time Colonial Office bigotry wounded the religious feelings of the natives. Superstition, and hatred of races, slmost produced a revolution, which was suppressed, whether with excessive rigour or not I cannot pretend to say, as I am not a member of the Ceylon Committee. But this I am prepared to say, that the increased military expenditure of that colony has been caused by the misconduct of the Colonial Office. Lastly, with regard to our military expenditure on account of our colonies, properly so called, this is a question of principle. That with regard to our military stations and plantations was a question of expediency. I maintain on principle that our colonies, properly so called, in so far as they are integral portions of the empire, but do not contribute towards the general revenue of the empire, ought in ordinary times to defray all their own expenses; and if they want troops for local purposes, they ought to pay for them. At the same time, they are entitled to claim the complete management of their local affairs. I, therefore, maintain we ought only to keep troops in our real colonies for imperial purposes. I ask why we should keep nearly 9,000 troops in North America, at an expense of 650,000 l. a year? If that force be intended to prevent annexation to the United States, it is ridiculously small. If we wish to prevent annexation we must give that colony the complete control over all its own affairs, and deprive the Colonial Office of its power of interfering in the local concerns of that colony, and if by those means we cannot succeed in retaining the affections of the colonists, and attaching them to the empire, be assured that results cannot be obtained by 9,000 armed men, even were we inclined to enforce a reluctant obedience at the point of the bayonet. A few troops for show more than use at Quebec and Halifax, would be
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all that would be required for imperial purposes. Next, at the Cape of Good Hope the number of troops in 1848 was 5,000, and the expenditure in 1846–7 685,000 l. This was the commencement of the Kafir war. Now I contend that wars with natives are local wars, which the colonies ought to pay for, and which then they would take good care not to get into. I do not quite agree with the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies, that because we have expended some millions on those local wars, we are entitled to send convicts to the Cape. But I argue, from the vigour and energy with which the colonists have resisted and defeated the noble Earl, that they are more than a match for a Kafir. Therefore I should propose to withdraw most of our troops from South Africa, and keep only for imperial purposes a few troops at Cape Town. Lastly, in the Australian colonies and New Zealand, the number of troops in 1848 was 4,500, costing in 1846–7 about 270,000; about 2,000 of those troops are distributed between Van Diemen's Land and New South Wales. In the former colony they are required on account of the convicts—therefore for imperial purposes. In New South Wales there ought to be no troops whatever, as I cannot conceive to what purposes they can be applied except for police, and the colonists ought with free institutions to pay for their own police. In New Zealand, according to the last account from Governor Grey, the military force in the northern island amounted to 2,948 men, nearly equal to the number (3,157) of adult male Europeans not military in that island. In fact, according to that authority, the number of military (1,798) in New Ulster exceeded by 298 men, the number (1,500) of adult male Europeans not military in that province. I believe, however, of this military force about 400 are pensioners; the remaining 2,500 are troops which must cost this country not less than 150,000 a year. When it is remembered that in addition to this sum a sum has been generally voted of from 20,000 l to 30,000 l. a year for the civil government of that colony, it must be acknowledged to be a most costly gem of the British empire. I believe it has been made so costly by the mismanagement of the Colonial Office; and in consequence of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies, having broken his pledge of giving free institutions to New Zealand. I speak not of Auckland and New Ulster at present. I confine my remarks to Wel-

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lington and New Munster. I knew the leading men who emigrated there. A body better qualified for self-government never left these shores; if you give them self-government they will take care of themselves. They are on the best terms with the natives; and from New Munster alone you may withdraw 1,000 troops, and effect a saving of 60,000 l. a year. If the troops in Canada were diminished by 5,000 men, at the Cape by 2,000, and in New Zealand by 1,000, a reduction would be effected to the extent of 8,000 men altogether. For these reasons, omitting the question of the amount of force to be kept at home or in our plantations, I contend that I am entitled to vote for a reduction in the vote of men, because I am convinced that a great reduction ought to be made in the military force in our colonies properly so called, and that such a reduction would be in accordance with the true principles of colonial policy and the great interests of our colonial empire.
CAPTAIN BOLDEROsaid, that he understood the hon. Baronet who had just sat down to have said that as long as they held their colonies, they ought to maintain the troops there. [Sir W. MOLESWORTH: No, no!] He understood the hon. Baronet to have said so. At all events, he could not understand how he could vote with the hon. Member for Montrose for a reduction of 11,000 of their troops, when his own opinion was that they could not safely make a greater reduction than 8,000 men. The hon. Member for Montrose complained that they now had 4,000 men in the colonies more than they had in the year 1835; but he should recollect that the colonies of Hong Kong and New Zealand, which they held only since that favourite year of comparison, absorbed those 4,000 men. What was the use of those colonies, some of which they took by stealth, others by purchase? He could not see of what use they were except to afford advantage to the mercantile interests of this country. No one could presume to doubt that they were of great advantage in that way. As for New Zealand, in that colony there could be no manufactures introduced except from this country. They should not now come forward to ask for a reduction in the amount of troops necessary to protect those colonies which formed the chief market for their manufactures. He would ask the House were they in such a safe position as to admit of their withdrawing any of the
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troops? Would the House consent to withdraw any of the troops from Ireland? If the Government felt that they could with confidence withdraw 9,000 or 10,000 of the troops from Ireland, they would gladly do so; but such confidence should not be placed in the peace and tranquillity of that country as some hon. Gentlemen would appear to suppose. He looked on Ireland as the most populous and the most helpless country on the face of earth, and could not admit of the withdrawal of such a number of troops. There was not at present a country in Europe that was not kept down by the force of bayonets; and there was not a crowned head that did not depend on such a force for its existence. It was said that the existence of railways did away with the necessity of having large numbers of troops in any one portion of their dominions. No doubt as a means of transit they were extremely advantageous, and would be of great use in case of a foreign invasion; but in case of an internal commotion they would be of no such advantage. Now, for instance, he would suppose that a row took place in Liverpool, and the troops were sent to check it, and succeeded in doing so, and then the disaffected made their way by rail to Manchester, and did the same there. Suppose there were no troops in Manchester, and the troops had to be sent from Liverpool to check the disturbance; what then would the Manchester gentlemen say? They would exclaim, "We pay taxes, and we have as good a right to keep troops in Manchester as you in Liverpool have." He would remind the House that the whole of this force was kept up to protect their interests and their property. It was the fashion to talk about the Army as being kept up for the purpose of providing for the younger members of the aristocracy. Such a clap-trap as that was a mere attempt to bring the Army into contempt. The aristocracy were not a bit more provided in the Army than any other body in the community. There was a fair sprinkling of gentlemen whose fathers belonged to the mercantile body in the Household Brigade and the Guards; and he should say that in the heavy cavalry more than half the officers were sons of mercantile and commercial men. As for the line, he declared to the House that every interest was fairly represented. Those who spoke about the Army should be more careful; and when they made statements they should take care they should not be the very re-

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verse of the truth, as such statements were likely to do incalculable mischief. It was stated by the hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding, that there were more officers in the Army than was necessary, and added that there was an officer to every twelve men. How could the House accept such a statement as that, when they would find, by comparing the numbers, that there was only one working officer to every thirty men. If they took all the officers as they now stood, working and non-working, including even the veterinary surgeons, they would find that instead of one officer to every twelve men, there was only one to every eighteen. If, however, as he said before, they only took the working officers, they would find that there was only one officer to every thirty men. He would observe that instead of having too many officers, there was reason to believe they had not enough of them to enable them, whenever they sent a detachment of men, to supply an officer to accompany them. The newspapers every day contained complaints of their not having enough officers in India. He would recommend those who argued on these matters without any personal knowledge, to ask any military man, and then they would receive full and fair explanations. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding said that he had consulted a military man, either a Hanoverian or an Australian. [Laughter.] Well, Austrian; but he might just as well have consulted one as the other. He thought that when advice was asked on these matters, it should not be sought from a foreigner. They were proved to be an overmatch for the foreigners as far as military matters went: and if the hon. Gentleman preferred the position of the foreigners he wished him joy, but the English were as far superior to them as one thing could be to another. Hon. Gentlemen said that they were anxious to keep faith with their creditors; but they should also keep faith with their soldiers, and allow the reliefs to proceed; and all he could say was, that if the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose was carried, they would give strength to the disaffected and discontented in every part of Her Majesty's dominions.
MR. MACGREGOR, in order to justify the vote he should give, would offer a few observations to the Committee. He believed that the Government were anxious to go on reducing the military establishments as much as possible; and he must
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say most sincerely, from his own personal knowledge of what his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been doing, that he was as anxious to reduce the expenditure, and to economise the finances of the country, as any man could be. In 1848 he (Mr. M'Gregor) had himself proposed a reduction in the expense of these establishments from 18,512,147 l to 14,250,000 l.; and he found, that since that period the Government had themselves made a reduction of 2,686,711 l., bringing the total cost at present of Army, Navy, and Ordnance to 16,825,436 l. He agreed with the hon. Member for Southwark that they should reduce the military expenditure in the colonies, and he hoped that, as Ireland was in a tranquil state, there would be no necessity of maintaining more than the ordinary garrisons in that country. He did not agree with the hon. Member for Montrose that they had no source of alarm in the large military establishments on the Continent; for he thought that when such large standing armies were kept up in France, Austria, and Prussia, it behoved us to see that we were in a safe position. The Prussian army, on the 1st of April last, amounted to 325,300 men under arms, of between 22 and 32 years of age, exclusive of the Landwehr, 151,500, of 32 years and upwards, and 36,000 Gendarmerie, being a total army of 512,800 men. The Austrian army, in the end of June, 1848, amounted to 706,708 men; and in France the actual standing army was 453,884 men, for the year 1849, exclusive of the National Guard; and he found the cost of maintenance of the French army was exactly double the cost for the maintenance of our own army, being 13,850,000 l. sterling. He could not, under these circumstances, vote for any immediate reduction in the Army; and although he hoped, by reducing the expenditure of the country to reduce the taxes (especially the window tax), which pressed so heavily on many interests, he would never consent to reduce any taxes at the expense of public credit. He was anxious to see reductions made in the Army and Navy, whenever they were practicable and compatible with safety; but he thought that hon. Gentlemen who wished to make a sweeping reduction of 11,000 men could not do so without inflicting injustice on most of those 11,000 men. If they brought home troops from the colonies, this would take some time, and they must, as a matter of justice, give them pensions. He did not, under all the

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circumstances, expect any great reduction to be effected in the Army and Navy for some years; though he believed the expense might be reduced by economy.
SIR B. HALLbore testimony to the forbearance and good conduct of the troops whenever he had seen them called out on particular occasions. The question, however, was, whether it was convenient or not to reduce the number of the Army, and he had been surprised to observe the same Gentlemen speak and vote for a reduction of taxation, who spoke and voted against a reduction of expenditure. How was it possible consistently to talk about a reduction of taxation, and at the same time to vote for the full expenditure of the country? The window tax, for example, produced a good round sum. As a landed proprietor, he should be glad of the reduction of much taxation; as a metropolitan representative, he should feel it his duty to vote for the repeal of that tax; but he could not pursue that course if the full expenditure was maintained. The hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham had advised the hon. Member for the West Riding, if he wanted to reduce the British Army, not to consult an Austrian officer but an English military man. But whether the Army was to be reduced or not, he (Sir B. Hall) told the hon. and gallant Member, without wishing to say one word in derogation of himself or of any other officer of the British Army, that upon such a question as that of reduction, their opinions would not be those he should most rely upon. If, for example, he wished to reduce the number of bishops, he should not go to the bishops for advice; and so, if he desired to reduce the Army, he should not consult the officers. The two cases were in the same category. In a matter so connected with their interests, it would be impossible for the officers to give an unbiassed opinion. Scarcely a man connected with the Army would be found voting with the minority on this proposal. The hon. and gallant Member had referred to the state of Europe; but this country did not stand in the same position. We were at peace with all the world, and could afford to reduce our Army, and yet keep the crown upon the head of our Sovereign, which was not the case in some other countries, where armies were kept on foot only to preserve crowns on heads, some of whom, perhaps, did not deserve to wear them. The hon. Member for Glasgow referred to the number of the French army, but
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could he be surprised when he considered the condition of all France? So in Russia, there was no Government, and the army was required to maintain the power of the Crown. The same reason applied to Austria; and in Prussia there would soon be three Parliaments sitting in different places, and yet Germany was called by some persons a united empire. He admitted that those countries must keep up their military force, and that there was good reason for not reducing their armies. But this country had enjoyed many years of peace; and it appeared to him that the time had come for reduction, and that it was useless going on from year to year saying that there could be no diminution in the number of the Army. He thought the proposal of the hon. Member for Montrose was one that could be fairly met. The earnest wish of the country was for a reduction of expenditure in order to obtain a reduction of taxation, and he did not think that those who opposed such a reduction of expenditure had a right to demand remission of taxation. He had before voted for reductions, and should do so now with a great deal of pleasure.
CAPTAIN-BOLDEROexplained that he had not asked the hon. Member for the West Riding to appeal to the officers of the Army for advice; but had merely alluded to his avowal that he had consulted an Austrian officer, who stated that the system on which we conducted our Army was a very erroneous one.
MR. STANFORD, as a civilian, expressed his admiration of the manner in which the estimates were framed, particularly as discredit had been attempted to be thrown upon that noble service—the Army. Unfounded imputations had been cast upon it. ["No, no!"] Why, during the recess, he had seen pamphlets, numerous enough, in which it was asserted that the Army was a cradle for the aristocracy, and that regiments were commercial speculations for the profit of the colonels, and not for the maintenance of peace, law, and order. No man, however, could take up the estimates without seeing how every shilling of the public money was spent; and, he repeated that, whether any item was capable of reduction or not, this was a circumstance creditable to the manner in which they were framed. The point at issue then was, were Her Majesty's Government seeking for the maintenance of a larger force than was necessary to maintain peace at home, the dignity of the empire abroad, and retain

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possession of our colonies? With regard to the maintenance of peace at home, it was clear there must he a sufficient force to hack the law. The sentences pronounced by the Judges could not be put into execution merely by a small police force; and when hon. Members alleged that the "people" were calling for reductions in our military establishments, he asked them what they meant by "the people?" Did they mean to include, under that term, pickpockets, thieves, and that large body, estimated at 70,000 in the metropolis alone, who were properly distinguished as the "dangerous classes?" If so, he could easily account for the demand; for in addition to the metropolis he contended that the great towns, such as Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, and others, required garrisons, but not to tyrannise over the people, or to deprive them of their political rights. The people certainly asked for a reduction of taxation, and he was ready to have it reduced; but he was not willing to reduce the Army, which would prevent adequate protection being afforded to the community. With regard to the colonies, he contended that the military force necessary for their retention could not safely be less than it was at present. He was prepared to show this to be the conviction of every colonial governor; and he preferred their opinions upon such a subject to those of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the West Riding, who, he regretted to say, had, on more than one occasion, indulged in a depreciatory tone with regard to the Army and Navy. He was glad to hear the noble Lord at the head of the Government, upon a late occasion, say that her Majesty's Ministers were determined not to allow one of our colonies to be taken from us. But, to enforce this determination a sufficient military power must be maintained. He did not think it was doing justice to the Government, who had made already such reductions as they could consistently with the safety of the country, for hon. Gentlemen not to take the slightest notice of those reductions, and call for a still further reduction of 10,000 men. Those hon. Gentlemen ought rather to acknowledge the reductions already made, and bow to the opinions of her Majesty's Government as to any further step in the same direction. With respect to our colonies, he maintained that so far from the military force there being too large, it was the reverse, as the governors, military men, and other compe-
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tent authorities, had often shown. He considered these better authorities on such a subject than the hon. Member for the West Riding. After the imputations which that hon. Member had cast upon the noble and distinguished man who was the glory of our country and our age, he thought he had a right to doubt anything which came from such a source. 'That hon. Member spoke both of the military and naval services in the spirit of an alien. For himself, he (Mr. Stanford) desired to see this country great and glorious as it ever had been; and he therefore thanked the Government for manfully coming forward, and, instead of pandering to a base desire for popularity, asking for such a force as they considered right for the maintenance of the glory of Old England.
MR. B. OSBORNEsaid, that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Reading appeared to look upon the Army as kept up only to give force to the sentences of the Judges. The hon. Gentleman, in fact, seemed to gather the idea from the select vestry, of which he (Mr. Osborne) believed he was, or had been, a member. The British Army he regarded in the light of the new police, and when the hon. Gentleman asked whether the cry for the reduction of the Army came from the people, he (Mr. Osborne) would ask him whether select vestries had made no call of the same nature? Had not one select vestry, which might be named, made immense complaints of an extra rate of sixpence in the pound for the new police, which the hon. Member knew very well amounted to a large sum?
MR. STANFORDobserved, that he was not a member of Marylebone vestry, to which the hon. Gentleman appeared to be referring; but the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose was.
MR. B. OSBORNEbelieved, then, that the hon. Gentleman had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds as far as concerned select vestries. But if the reasons of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Reading for supporting the Motion were extraordinary, those advanced by the hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham were still more extraordinary. The hon. Member for Reading represented the civilian reasoning, and the hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham the military reasoning, in support of the Motion. And what were those reasons? The question of the number of the Army had been truly put by the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark. It

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depended upon our colonial empire. Of course, if we chose to have an empire upon which the sun never sets, we must have troops to maintain it; but the hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham said, "We must keep up a large force in the colonies, because they are discontented with our mode of government." Indeed, he went further, for he contended it was necessary to keep up an enormous force in Ireland, because the people there were impoverished and starving. This was the military part of the reasoning. The hon. and gallant Member would probably consider the condition of the union of Kilrush an additional argument for a large force in that country. He rested the case, too, upon the opinions of military officers. He (Mr. Osborne) believed British officers to be honourable men; there were none more honourable in the world, for they were British gentlemen; but he should not go exactly to an officer in the Army to consult upon the propriety of a reduction in the numbers of his profession. His judgment was as liable to be warped as that of other persons; and when the hon. and gallant Member talked of the opinions of officers, he would ask him if the abolition of flogging in the Army proceeded from them or from the Horse Guards? Was it not resisted year after in that House by Members connected with the military profession? Had it not been for a civilian, his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose—and this was among the thousand and one good things he had done—that system of punishment would have been existing in the Army at this moment. There could not be the slightest doubt that flogging would have been continued. The hon. and gallant Member then referred to the number of officers in the Army; and in the very next sentence misrepresented his hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding, with regard to the views expressed to him by an officer in the Austrian service. He said his hon. Friend had compared the Austrian and the British Army—and then he turned round and said, he would compare the British Army either with that of Austria or Prussia. Very well; but let the hon. and gallant Member recollect that nearly the whole system adopted in the British Army had been stolen from the Prussian service. The whole of the infantry manœuvre had been taken from the Prussian system. The hon. and gallant Gentleman should have taken pains to acquaint himself with this fact, and not misrepresented his hon. Friend the Member
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for the West Riding under the plea of being a true friend to the British Army. To return, however, to the hon. and gallant Member's argument as to the number of officers. Most undoubtedly he had made an unintentional misrepresentation on this subject. The Army, he said, was under-officered. But he forgot to tell the House that the troops which he alleged to be under-officered were not the Queen's, but the East India Company's. The complaint was made, not as to the Queen's, but as to the Company's troops; and the hon. and gallant Gentleman knew it well. The troops in the Company's service were certainly disgracefully managed, because they were under-officered; and he thought he was justified in this assertion after the recent general order of Sir Charles Napier, in which he exposed the way in which some regiments had been handled. He (Mr. Osborne) was not content to rest this question entirely upon the colonial part of the argument. It had been said by his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose that there was something in the Ministerial benches which seemed to contaminate those who sat upon them. He did not hold that to be the case; but he believed there was a power independent of them, which hindered any set of men, be they Whig or Tory, from carrying out the principles they were accustomed to hold on the other side of the House. That power he believed to be what was called the "Horse Guards." The noble Lord the First Minister, with the best intentions, and the Secretary at War, with the best knowledge, as to the plans which would effect a remedy, would never be allowed to carry them out whilst the Army was governed upon the system that prevailed at the Horse Guards. It was perfectly possible to have increased efficiency with diminished expenditure. In the year 1837 a commission sat upon this subject; and he would now venture to ask why the recommendations contained in the report of that commission had not been carried out? There was no use nibbling at regiments, or reducing 3,000 men here, and 4,000 there. They must begin at the fountain-head; for, until the whole system was altered, it was idle to think of economy. How was the Army managed? It was managed by three different departments. There was the Horse Guards for the infantry and the cavalry; the Ordnance; and the Commissariat, which was under the Treasury-Now, he wanted to know why these departments could not be consolidated, put under one

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head, and carried on by a Minister of War having a seat in the Cabinet, and in that House? This very system had been recommended by the Commission which sat in 1837; and the noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury, the late Earl Grey, Sir James Graham, and other distinguished individuals, urged its appointment immediately. It was evident that it would produce great economy; and why it had not been adopted he could not tell, except that the Horse Guards stood in the way. The Secretary at War, whose statement he was glad to hear, for its clearness, was only financial secretary at the Horse Guards, and he had no power to carry out anything but what he was told; therefore it would be unfair to fall upon him for any shortcomings. The fault was not in him but in the system; and so long as the present system was kept up, he held that, with all deference to the hon. Member for Reading, who was so enamoured with the novel manner in which the estimates were drawn up—though it was precisely the same as had been in use for 30 or 40 years past—so long would there be profuse expenditure. At the same time, he (Mr. Osborne) must find fault with two assertions of his hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding. One of them, indeed, had no foundation in fact, though he believed his hon. Friend had no motive in making it but that of a sincere desire for the public good. The Army, said his hon. Friend, was kept up for the benefit of the scions of the aristocracy. He differed with his hon Friend. [Mr. COBDEN said, he had never said so; it was the Liverpool Financial Reform Association.] The Liverpool Financial Reform Association had published several interesting tracts, which he had read; and he could assure them that, having taken great pains to inquire into this subject, they were completely mistaken. He had even gone into the pedigree of the officers of regiments, and he had found, upon careful investigation, that the great proportion of officers in one branch of the service—namely, the heavy dragoons—were generally the sons of capitalists and gentlemen who had made their money fairly and honestly in their different occupations. He found, also, that the great proportion of infantry officers were the sons of very poor men, who entered the Army as a profession; and it was only in two exceptional regiments, which were not the working branch of the service, that it was otherwise. It might be, therefore, that, in some cases, the working of
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the system was as had been described, but in the great majority of cases it had been misrepresented. But his hon. Friend was perfectly justified in the second assertion be had made, namely, that there was a great disproportion of officers to men. Then the Secretary at War pointed to America, and the proportion of officers to men there. He (Mr. Osborne) wondered nobody had got up and expressed their astonishment at this reference; for, if a real comparison was wanted, the right hon. Gentleman should not have gone to America, but to the continental nations. For an army of 100,000 men, we had no less than 9 field-marshals, 58 full generals, 57 lieutenant-generals, and 174 major-generals—a staff much greater than was maintained for an army of 450,000 Frenchmen; and let it be remembered that the French were obliged, out of theirs, to supply a staff for 500,000 National Guards. But here the hon. Gentleman the Member for Glasgow came in his new character of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and would not allow the House to make any reduction, because, he said, the French army cost double the amount of ours. This was said amidst loud cries of "Hear, hear!" from the opposite side. But the hon. Gentleman omitted to state a material point, namely, that the French army was quadruple ours, and that in the French estimates the whole of the Ordnance was included. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War had only casually alluded to the clothing establishment of the Army. He (Mr. Osborne) was not going to enter into any diatribes about the clothing; but he thought that, before the hon. Member for Reading felt satisfied with the estimates, it would be well if he bad inquired whether a saving could not be made by putting this establishment upon a different footing. 147 colonels, who had regiments, bad 90,000 l. for clothing; and the sum allowed each general officer for an infantry regiment was 1,840 l., whilst his annual expenditure for clothing was 1,066 l What became of the odd 800 l? It went into the general's pocket. He had no objection to that; but he maintained it Would be much better to give an annual payment to deserving men who had got regiments, than to place their emoluments upon such a footing, for they would be better satisfied on the one hand, whilst 40,000 l. a year would be saved by the clothing being taken out of their hands. A private of the line, he found, cost in clothing 2l. 6s. per annum; a foot guard, 3l. 15 s.; a private

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in the cavalry of the line, 4l.; in the Blues, 8l. 4s.; and in the Life Guards, 8l. 13 s. 3d. Thus the cost of the Life Guards was more than double that of a private in the cavalry of the line. This was enormous. He trusted, then, that they would not much longer be encumbered with the cuirass into which they were put, and in which, if they were called out, they would never be able to strike a blow, nor with those enormous boots in which, large as the men were, they seemed to be lost. What was the cost of clothing for the French and Prussian armies? In 1847, the cost of 370,125 French troops, including tent equipments, was 464,000 l., being 1l. 13 s. 2d. per man; in Prussia it was 1l. 15 s. 10 d. per man. But in this country the cost was 3l. per man, just double those of Prussia or Prance. Something must be wrong in our system; and he was sure that so long as the clothing of regiments was in the hands of colonels, so long would this evil prevail, and so long would they be exposed to detraction for what they could not help. If, then, the Secretary at War had any influence at the Horse Guards (which he did not believe), he entreated him to put the clothing establishment of the Army upon a different footing. The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Chippenham had referred, as he bad already said, to the proportion of officers in the British Army; but his hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding had not made the statement imputed to him. His hon. Friend said he had spoken to a distingushed Austrian cavalry officer—that he had gone over the different regiments, and found the proportion of officers to men double in the cavalry regiments to the infantry, and double what they were in the Austrian service. It was new to him (Mr. Osborne) to hear the Austrian and Prussian cavalry underrated; and if the hon. and gallant Gentleman had had an opportunity of seeing them, he would have seen that we took pattern by them every day. But what was the system as to our cavalry? Exclusive of the Household Brigade we had 23 regiments of cavalry. The first Dragoon Guards had two extra troops, and it consisted of 361 horses, and 511 men of all ranks; the 22 other regiments had 271 horses and 387 men each. There were 33 commissioned officers in the 1st Dragoon Guards, and 27 in the others; and the non-commissioned officers were 40 in the first, and 32 in the remainder. There was one officer to seven on dis-
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mounted parade, and one to six on mounted parade. The Prussian regiments numbered 1,400 men, and one officer was sufficient for 40 men. Now, he wanted to know whether we could not put our cavalry upon an efficient footing without so enormous a staff? Why, instead of having those skeleton regiments, should they not get rid of the staff, and make the regiments real and effective? He came now to the question of agency. Why should it be continued at an expense of 30,000 l a year? There was no such thing in India; and he could sec no benefit in it here. He suggested that saving might be made by employing half-pay officers as quartermasters and adjutants. By a return he moved for the other day, he found that one man, a clerk, after forty years' service, had retired upon a pension of 700 l. a year; but many officers of high rank, after having seen hard service for forty years, and spending 7,000 l. in the profession, would only get 400 l. This he submitted was not right, whilst by placing the establishment upon a different footing, economy would be promoted. It had been said that the commercial principle did not apply in the Army. His right hon. Friend forgot that no officer obtained any step in rank for the regulation price; that he was frequently charged 2,000 l. or 3,000 l. above it for his commission. No officer (and the Horse Guards winked at it, and his right hon. Friend winked at it too) could hope to obtain a step in the service without paying heavily through the nose for it. Some allusion had been made to education in the Army He rejoiced that some steps had been taken upon that subject; but he thought it would hereafter become a grave question for that House, when they had got a highly educated body of men, whether their eyes would not be open to the impolitic way in which commissions were given or purchased. It was all very well to talk about education; but in proportion as the Army was educated, they would begin to reason, that there was no reason why a greater proportion should not be eligible for commissions, or any why the bad system of purchase should not be continued. It might be said, "Let well alone." That was said by all Governments; but with respect to the Army he maintained that by cutting down the Ordnance and putting the whole Army under one responsible Minister, a saving of 500,000 l. might be effected. Certainly he never expected it to be done; but, as it might be effected.

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he should give his support to his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose.
MR. STANFORD, in explanation, said, his argument with regard to the estimates was that they were so intelligible that any person who read them might know how every shilling was expended. The hon. Gentleman had been pleased to indulge in insinuations that there was some particular reason for his (Mr. Stanford's) having left the parochial vestry alluded to. The hon. Gentleman was mistaken.
MR. OSBORNEassured the hon. Gentleman that he was not aware of the fact that he had been a vestryman until he was about to address the House.
COLONEL CHATTERTONsaid: I think, Sir, we are all under very great obligations to our right hon. Friend the Secretary at War, for the clear, admirable, and lucid manner in which he has not only explained, but drawn up those estimates. The only fault I find with them is the fact of their being formed on a plan far too economical, nay, almost parsimonious; and I hope my right hon. Friend will excuse me, when I express my surprise that he could come down to this House and ask for the reduction of a single man, if he had the well-being and interest of that most deserving arm of the British Army, the infantry, at heart. Hon. Members of this House little know the hardships and endurances of these men; they are, I may say, almost expatriated. A regiment returns from foreign service, and when again recruited, I will not say thoroughly disciplined, they are, at the interval of four years, again ordered for foreign service, and this is all owing to the paucity of the establishment of our Army for the different reliefs for foreign service. I greatly regretted to see a diminution of 1,000 l. in that part of the estimate which regards gratuities and medals to soldiers for long and meritorious services. That system of reward has been found most efficacious, and should be largely encouraged. I also regretted to see so small a sum demanded for rewards and medals to deserving and meritorious soldiers while serving. From the parsimony of this grant, commanding officers are often placed in much embarrassment, as I was upon one occasion myself, when in command of the Royal Irish Dragoon Guards, from having two most meritorious and excellent men to discharge, and could only award one medal. I trust my right hon. Friend will excuse my calling his attention to those points, as well as to the
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great and manifest injustice of taking away the good-conduct pay from sergeants when they are promoted to that rank, after having so well earned these distinctions while serving in the lower grades. I assure my right hon. Friend, the soldiers of the Army are justly proud of the distinctions bestowed upon them by their Sovereign, when they have with them the conscious feeling of having deserved them. It gratified me to hear that the attention of my right hon. Friend had been called to the military prisons. I have long thought the comforts of those confined were far too much attended to, in fact they were far better off as to lodging and food than good soldiers in barracks; and I quite approve of the system of altering night-sleeping on guard-beds, which my right hon. Friend tells the House he has introduced. I am glad to express a similar gratification with the hon. Member for Montrose, that that debasing and cruel punishment, flogging, is fast falling into disuse in the Army; but I cannot agree with him that purchase should be discontinued in the Army, for I would ask him how could a man, however deserving, but who had risen from the ranks, be able to bear the expense of horses and equipments in the cavalry service, unless the hon. Gentleman will allow them to come down to this House for a supply? I shall conclude with one remark, and that a regret that I cannot compliment my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesex upon the knowledge he has shown of cavalry tactics; but I could not expect much, as I dare imagine he has obtained his diploma from that gay military school where he was performing the important duty of aide-decamp to his Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.
MR. MUNTZsaid, that he felt the same difficulty with respect to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Montrose that he did on a previous evening with respect to the Amendment of the hon. Member for the West Riding. Both were abstract questions, and he did not see how they were to be carried out; but, in the meantime, he felt that he might be giving a vote which would imprudently reduce the military power of the country. He agreed with the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark in regarding the question as a colonial one, because one half of the men required were needed for the colonial service. The question then was—is the House prepared to give up the colonies?

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["No, no!"] His opinion was that the wisest course would be to give up the colonies altogether, looking at the present state of the commercial interest. He knew of no advantage which the colonies conferred which would not be derived if they were left to themselves; and therefore he would say, that the honest, the wise, the expedient plan would be to say to the colonies, "If you wish to leave us, we shall be extremely obliged to you. We are not at liberty to discharge you because we encouraged emigration; we are bound in consequence to support you; but so soon as you feel that you are able to do for yourselves, we shall be glad to relinquish our control." If this step be taken, Canada and some of the other colonies, which were able to stand on their own bottom, might avail themselves of the offer, and thus relieve the mother country of the expense which she had now to bear in protecting those who were perfectly able and willing to protect themselves. As matters stood, he did not like to vote for an abstract proposition, and he should, therefore, vote for the Ministerial proposal.
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, he certainly should support the Government; and if the Government had found it necessary to ask for an augmentation of the Army, he should have supported it; Cavendo tutus was his motto.
COLONEL REIDobserved, that the Secretary at War had announced that in the course of a short time officers would be subjected to an examination previous to promotion. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to state what that examination was, for if it were in any degree similar to that lately adopted before the admission of officers into the service, he should oppose it in every way. If officers who had served their country, and perhaps been before the enemy, were to be subjected to a sort of schoolmaster's examination, and their title to promotion to be determined by the extent of their knowledge in Cocker and Bonnycastle, he begged to say that he believed great disgust would be occasioned. For his own part, rather than be subjected to an examination in algebra, logarithms, and other such merely scholastic matters, he would throw up his commission. If the Government were to introduce a system of purely voluntary examination in engineering, military history, and other professional knowledge, this might operate as a beneficial incentive to military students. The hon.
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Member for Dumfries had said on a former occasion, that the British Army was notoriously the most unintellectual army in Europe. [Mr. EWART: No, no!] He believed those were the very words the hon. Gentleman used; but he (Colonel Reid) did not know what means the hon. Member had of forming an opinion on the subject, for the Commander-in-chief himself had no means of ascertaining the intellectual qualifications of the men engaged in the service. He (Colonel Reid) believed, however, that if some incentives in the way of promotion were held out, officers would feel that their success depended in some measure upon their own exertions, and would apply themselves to professional studies.
MR. COBDENsaid, he found that of the proposed reduction of 4,426 men, 2,230 had been transferred to India, leaving only an actual reduction of 1,896. But what he rose to call attention to particularly was that of the 128 officers charged less to us, 96 had been sent to India, leaving only a decrease of officers to our charge of 32; and, that even that decrease consisted entirely of adjutants, quarter-masters, and surgeons. Looking down the lists for 1849 and 1850, of officers of all ranks, they would find that of all ranks, down to that of lieutenant and ensign, there was last year, 5,103, and this year, 5,105, proving the fact he had just stated. They drafted off the rank and file, but did not reduce the officers. A great deal had been said respecting the necessity of keeping up a military force for the colonies. He considered that all depended on the course we intended to take respecting the colonies; and if ever there was a time when that question ought to be decided, it was the present. The hon. Member for Birmingham found a difficulty in supporting the Motion of his hon. Friend, because that question was unsettled. But how were they to settle it, unless by a vote such as they were now asked to give? They had nothing to do with the framing of the estimates, and had no knowledge of, or power over them, until presented in that House. If they did not deal with them now, they could not do so hereafter. No other opportunity could offer itself for reducing the 6,000,000 l. demanded for the support of the Army. If they voted the number of men demanded, they would in effect be voting the amount of money demanded; therefore, when hon. Gentlemen voted for the proposed number of men, they voted against any reduction of expenditure. The

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hon. Member for West Surrey was to make a Motion to-morrow evening for a reduction of expenditure; but if the present vote was agreed to, it would be useless as regarded the Army, as the question would have been decided. He considered that we ought at once to determine our colonial policy. We were going to give to our Australian colonies and New Zealand absolute power and control over all those vast and fertile lands which we called ours, and would it not be well to insert a clause in the Act to the effect that we should call upon those colonies to pay the expense of their own police and other establishments? He maintained that the House was not in a position to pass this vote, and that if they did they could not carry out those principles of retrenchment for which the hon. Member for West Surrey was about to contend.
LORD J. MANNERSdid not agree with the hon. Member for the West Riding that the speech of the hon. Member for Southwark justified his vote for the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose. The hon. Member for Southwark had said that they might reduce the force by striking off 1,000 men here, and 1,000 men there, and by diminishing by one-half the force maintained in New Zealand; but he did not give any proof that such a course was practical or prudent. That hon. Gentleman came to the conclusion that 7,500 men might be safely subtracted from the vote proposed by the Government. The hon. Member for Montrose, however, proposed to strike off, not 7,500, but 10,000 men; and therefore he (Lord J. Manners) considered that the speech of the hon. Member for Soutbwark did not justify the conclusions of the hon. Member for the West Riding. He (Lord J. Manners) would not enter into the various matters which had been discussed; but as the hon. Member for Middlesex had cursorily referred to the subject of army clothing, he would express his earnest hope that care would be taken in future by those whose duty it was to provide clothing for the troops to prevent the recurrence of those disgraceful proceedings, the disclosure of which had startled the country last autumn. He hoped that in future the Army would be clothed upon principles of something like common justice and humanity, and that, whatever system might be adopted, they would not have it on their Parliamentary conscience that the unfortunate men had been reduced by a pitiful
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economy to the degrading position in which they had been placed.
SIR W. MOLESWORTHwished to explain, as he appeared to have been misunderstood, that he had said that they could not reduce the force at home without first reducing the force in the colonies, but he had confined his remarks to the reduction which he thought could be made in the colonies.
COLONEL DUNNEconsidered it necessary, although the cavalry regiments were numerically weak, to keep up a large proportion of officers to form a nucleus for establishing an efficient cavalry force in case of necessity. Cavalry officers required much more experience than infantry officers, and ought to be brought up to the service from their earliest youth. He believed that the Austrian cavalry was under-officered, and that this had been found in late wars; and, in his opinion, the British Army was not over-officered if they wished to have the means of increasing their force on any emergency. It had been stated that the British forces in the colonies were more than sufficient for their defence, but from his own experience on foreign service, he could contradict that assertion. At Gibraltar and Malta, for instance, the troops were frequently much harassed by their duties, especially when sickness prevailed. In the Ionian Islands, also, our forces were perfectly insufficient for the proper performance of the necessary duties. With regard to the system of education proposed to be established, he believed there was a strong feeling in the Army that it would be most beneficial. He could assure the gallant Officer the Member for Windsor, that the professional education, even of cavalry officers, was insufficient, and that, if they wished to increase the efficiency of the Army, it was absolutely necessary that that education should be still further extended.
MR. V. SMITHagreed with the hon. Members for Southwark and the West Riding on the necessity of reducing the military force in the colonies; but he was not prepared to support the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose, because there were no moans upon the estimates of putting a veto on the number of troops sent to the colonies, and therefore the object of his vote might be misunderstood. He had been glad to hoar the Secretary at War say that he was prepared to reduce the number of troops in the colonies. The noble Lord at the head of the Government

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had made a similar declaration; and the noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies had stated before the Ordnance Committee last year that he had written to one colony—the Cape of Good Hope—to say that the colonists must in future depend entirely upon themselves for their defence: and he (Mr. V. Smith) understood the noble Earl to say that he was prepared to pursue the same course in other cases. He (Mr. V. Smith) was of opinion that our troops ought to be entirely withdrawn from some of the colonies, and that the colonists should be left to provide for their own defence. The Kafir war had been terminated at much less cost than would otherwise have been the case, because when that war broke out there was but a small British force in the colony, and the colonists readily came forward and enrolled themselves as volunteers, which they would not have done if they had had a large body of the Queen's troops to depend upon. He agreed that the present was as suitable an opportunity as was likely to occur for reducing the colonial expenditure of this country, for when they were giving self-government to the colonies they might tell them that with the art of self-government they must also learn the art of self-defence. He hoped the noble Lord at the head of the Government would be prepared to carry out the policy intimated by Earl Grey before the Committee last year, and that he would reduce considerably the forces employed in the colonies, if he did not entirely withdraw them. He (Mr. V. Smith) would ask the Committee to look at the danger incurred from maintaining a British army in Canada. His noble Friend at the head of the Government had said a short time ago that he was not prepared to consent to the annexation of Canada to the United States; but suppose a strong desire to exist on the part of the Canadian people to annex themselves to the United States, the moment such a notion was expressed, the British forces in Canada would act, and this country would be involved in a war from which extrication might be most difficult. Although he considered it desirable that what the Legislature of this kingdom intended to do with regard to colonial expenditure should be clearly known, he did not think the present occasion was well chosen for eliciting their opinion on that subject. He regarded it rather as a question of policy than as one of economy in the estimates. Whatever might be the effect of free trade and the repeal of the naviga-
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tion laws in this country, it had no doubt produced a great change in our colonial policy, and had completely altered our relations with our colonies; and he thought that now, in entering upon a new line of policy with regard to the colonies, that policy ought to be certain, clear, and definite, that we might know what to expect from the colonies, and that they might know what to expect from us, that when separated—if hereafter we were to be separated—we might separate upon amicable terms.
MR. REYNOLDSregretted, that though he was friendly to every practical effort for the reduction of the public expenditure, he could not support the Motion of the hon. Member for Montrose. The hon. and military Member for Chippenham had said they ought to maintain the army in Ireland from compassion to the impoverished people. That certainly seemed to be a new doctrine for the maintenance of a military force. The hon. Member for Birmingham had said this was a colonial question. It might be so in distant colonies, but in Ireland it appeared to him to be a Church question—an ecclesiastical question; and it was quite clear that the "church militant" in that country was supported by that establishment from which it took the designation. It struck him that they might trace in Ireland some connexion between the tent and the tabernacle. They had in that country 22,000 regular troops, 10,000 enrolled pensioners, and 12,000 constabulary, making a total force of 44,000 men. These troops were in Ireland for the purpose of forcing upon the people institutions to which they were adverse. He would wish to see the whole of the British army, if possible, quartered in Ireland, because the expenditure would benefit the country. He was the more anxious that this should take place, because his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose was determined to add a last blow, by abolishing the Irish Viceroyalty, in order to effect a saving of some 60,000 l. a year, which was not more than a farthing a piece for the whole population of the united kingdom. If, instead of this Amendment, there had been a Motion made to abolish the temporalities of the Church in Ireland—["Question!"]—and thereupon to reduce the military there by 10,000 men, it would have been a more practical proposition, and more likely to receive support out of doors. But be was compelled, with deep regret, to vote against this Amendment.

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He believed, if the nuisance of the Irish Church were abated, the troops might be withdrawn; and, at the risk of exciting a laugh, he would state that as he had sworn as a Roman Catholic not to employ his power to weaken the Protestant Church in Ireland, he could not vote for this Motion.
MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEYthought it right, as other hon. Members had done, to give a reason for his vote on this occasion. He was a decided friend to retrenchment and economy, and he did not know how it was possible for the Government to retrench, unless the House was prepared to support retrenchment. He had heard no answer given to that part of the speech of the hon. Member for Montrose, wherein he stated that in the years 1833, 1834, 1835, and 1836, we had only 80,000 troops for England and Ireland; and he was at a loss to know why it was considered necessary that there should be 20,000 more now. He wished to be consistent in that House. It was his intention to vote to-morrow night for the Motion of the hon. Member for West Surrey; and he did so, because he believed that the course of legislation for several years had been to diminish the cost of articles of consumption, and that the power of paying taxes had been materially diminished by free trade. He did not agree with the hon. Member for Reading, when he said that a military force was wanted to keep down a vagrant and discontented population. He thought it was an insult to them, as citizens, to say that they required any military force whatever to keep down the population either in the metropolis or in great provincial towns—such as Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds. In 1848, what was the feeling of the metropolis? When there was danger, all classes enrolled themselves on the side of peace and order. There was one fallacy which he had heard stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Chippenham, that the forces required for the colonies were required mainly for the manufactures and commerce of the country. Now, so far as he was able to gather the sentiments of the manufacturing and commercial interests, he believed that manufacturing and commercial men were of opinion that the Legislature would promote the interests of commerce and manufacture much more by wise and economic measures than by keeping up the present amount of taxation, and that the safety of the country might be securely left to the loyalty of the people.
LORD J. RUSSELL: Sir, I shall not at present enter on the question whether there should be a reduction of 10,000 men beyond the reduction of 4,000 proposed by Her Majesty's Government, but there is one part of the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Northampton which seems to me to require some notice. As I understand my right hon. Friend, he is disposed to lay down the principle, that as the colonies are to have representative or self-government, and as we have adopted the policy of free trade, that, therefore, the colonies are to be told that they are to rely totally on their own resources for self-defence. Now if my right hon. Friend asks me to give my assent to that doctrine as a general principle, I must say that I am totally opposed to it. I am entirely against any excessive or unnecessary force being kept up in any of our colonies, as I would be against any unnecessary and superfluous force being kept up in the united kingdom; but, at the same time, I do not think the colonists should be told that, under all circumstances, they are to rely in future entirely on their own resources. Now I think the principle ought to be to suit your force for each colony according to the circumstances of the times in which that force is to be employed. With regard to our military fortresses, it has been stated, and I think hardly denied by anybody, that the forces at Gibraltar and Malta are hardly sufficient for the garrison duties in those places. Then, with regard to some of our colonies, we have made very considerable reductions in the forces kept up. In Jamaica and the West Indies generally the force is now upwards of 4,500 men Jess than in 1835. In Australia we have lately made a very considerable reduction, as the force, which was 4,000 men, is now reduced to 2,629, making a reduction of 1,380 men. I think, when circumstances show that such reduction can be made, it is wise and proper to make it: but in other cases there is often a necessity of sending additional forces, and in such cases it is perfectly obvious that we ought to be ready to send them, and not to desert the colonists, and leave them to rely solely on their own resources. With regard to such fortified places as may be in the colonies, I should be also sorry to leave them to the forces that might be raised by the colony. With regard to Quebec, for instance, I should be sorry to see all the regular forces taken altogether away from it, and the Legislative Council left to provide entirely for its

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defence. Without entering into the other questions that have been mooted to-night, I must therefore decline to agree to the general principle of my right hon. Friend. At the same time, if a good cause he shown for reduction in any particular colony, I am ready to agree in such reduction, though I cannot agree to the general principle that under no circumstances are the colonists to have any assistance from us.
MR. V. SMITHexplained. He had alluded to the adoption of free trade merely incidentally, and in support of his view with regard to leaving the colonies to maintain their own forces. He should beg to refer to a despatch of Earl Grey to Sir Harry Smith, in which he told him to tell the colonists that in case of any future war with the natives, like the last Kafir war, the colonists should have to depend on themselves.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that when his noble Friend wrote to the Cape that, in case of a future Kafir war, they must provide their own defence, he did not think his noble Friend meant to imply that the colonists were not to use Her Majesty's troops, but merely that they were not to rely on fresh expenses being paid for them. The matter, he thought, rather confirmed him in saying that each case must depend on its own merits. But taking the colony of New Zealand, which had not at present a constitutional government, and supposing that if within the next two years it received a representative constitution, he was not prepared to say that they ought immediately to withdraw their military forces from that colony. It was quite true that some of the North American States had risen without any assistance from British troops; but in the early history of these States did they not find instances where the whole population of the colony was four times swept away by tribes of Indians, before the final settlement of the colony took place? And seeing that in New Zealand there was a native population of 100,000 men of a very warlike character, he should certainly be afraid to see a few Englishmen left without protection among them, as they also might be massacred as the American colonists had been, and he did not think that, holding the position which he held, he would be doing his duty if he left them exposed to such a danger.
MR. J. B. SMITHsaid, that England was the only country which paid the military, naval, and civil expenses of her colonies. It was an important question, what
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was the value of those colonies; for if they were not worth anything, why keep them? Canada had been referred to; and it was said there had been an increase of 14,000 in our military force on account of Canada; and we constantly kept there an amount of force nearly equal to the whole peace establishment of the United States. The naval and military expense of Canada was estimated at one million per annum; we also paid the Canadians about 15 s. per load more for their timber than we paid to other countries, which amounted to 1,700,000 l. a year; making a total of 2,700,000 l. What did we get in exchange for this? According to the last returns, the exports to Canada in 1848 did not amount to 2,000,000 l.; and for the last seven years the average had been less than 2,500,000 l.; and for that we incurred an expense of 2,700,000 l. per annum. Canada had self-government. We had given her possession of all her lands: we could not dispose of a yard of land in that colony. What, then, had we in Canada? No power whatever, except the luxury of putting a veto upon any act of the legislature; and for this we sacrificed the whole amount of our exports to Canada. It was utterly impossible this question could long remain in its present state. Canada must pay all her expenses, or she was a worthless possession. It was a great error to give away the Crown lands for nothing. He should move a clause in the Australian Colonies Government Bill, reserving all the Crown lands till the colony agreed to pay its own naval and military expenditure.
SIR J. B. WALSHsaid, he concurred with the right hon. Member for Northampton that it was premature to consider the question in a colonial point of view, as our colonies were now under a totally different system, and it was yet doubtful what form our relations with the colonies could assume. The hon. Member for the West Riding had said that hon. Members who intended to vote with the hon. Member for West Surrey would act inconsistently if they voted against the Amendment of the hon. Member for Montrose. He denied that; for the protectionists had never been a popularity-hunting party; and while they were always anxious to support practical measures of retrenchment, they had a right to determine questions so vague and general as that of the hon. Gentleman's on its merits. What were they to think of a measure supported by the hon. Member for the West Riding, who at meetings out

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of doors had used language calculated to endanger the peace of Europe? There had been one expression attributed in the papers to the hon. Member, in respect to the authenticity of which he had ever since felt an intense curiosity. He wanted to know whether the hon. Member for the West Riding, who, when it suited his purpose, could coo in dove-like notes of peace, had used the pacific phrase that he would "crumple up" the empire of Russia. After using that and similar language, calculated to aggravate the most military State in Europe, and set it against England, what did the hon. Member mean by coming there and asking the House to reduce its armaments? The Emperor of Russia had certainly as much power to "crumple up" the hon. Member for the West Riding as he the Emperor of Russia. He did not deny that the hon. Member had power to crumple up the prosperity of a great empire. If the hon. Member would go to Russia and carry on such a political agitation there as he had inflicted upon this country, he might accomplish the crumpling up even of Russia. He should be very happy if the hon. Member would go and try the experiment. He hoped that, as far as practicable, the House would consent to economise the expenditure of the country; but as he believed the economy proposed by the hon. Member for Montrose would prove dangerous to our national safety and dignity, be should give his cordial support to the Government proposition.
MR. FOX MAULEbegged to reply to the question asked by the hon. and gallant Member for Windsor, who had asked whether there was to be a second examination before an officer arrived at the rank of captain, that he hoped to see such an examination before long, although at present no such examination had been decided upon. He would repeat, that unless the officers of the Army kept pace with the men of the Army in increased intelligence, it would go far to shake the discipline which it was necessary to maintain. With respect to the remarks of the hon. Member for Middlesex upon clothing, the subject would be very fully examined by the Committee upstairs, and they would state in their report whether, in their opinion, the present system should be adhered to or altered.
MR. HUMEsaid, the grounds for his Motion were few and simple. During the four years of 1833, 1834,1835, and 1836,
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the number of men was 81,000, while the estimates for the present year were 99,000. Besides the men voted in those years we had now in artillery, marines, dockyard battalions, and Chelsea pensioners, an addition of 40,000 bayonets to the military force of 18343–5. If a large reduction of taxation were made, it could only be done by reducing the expenditure in the military, naval, and ordnance estimates. He was sorry to find that so few hon. Gentlemen upon the opposite benches were likely to vote for his Motion. But he had done his duty, and if the House were satisfied in the present state of the country to have 40,000 men more than in 1835, he must leave them to say so on a division.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 50; Noes 223: Majority 173.

List of the AYES.

Alcock, T.

Moffatt, G.

Blake, M. J.

Morris, D.

Blewitt, R. J.

Mowatt, F.

Brocklehurst, J.

O'Connor, F.

Brotherton, J.

Osborne, R.

Cavley, E. S.

Pechell, Sir G. B.

Clay, J.

Pelham, hon. D. A.

Cobden, R.

Pilkington, J.

Devereux, J. T.

Salwey, Col.

Duncan, G.

Scully, F.

Ellis, J.

Sidney, Ald.

Ewart, W.

Smith, J. B.

Fagan, W.

Strickland, Sir G.

Fordyce, A. D.

Sullivan, M.

Fox, W. J.

Tancred, H. W.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Greene, J.

Thompson, Col.

Hall, Sir B.

Thompson, G.

Hastie, A.

Thornely, T.

Henry, A.

Walmsley, Sir J.

Keating, R.

Wawn, J. T.

Kershaw, J.

Williams, J.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Wood, W. P.

Lushington, C.

Marshall, J. G.

TELLERS.

Milton, Visct.

Hume, J.

Mitchell, T. A.

Molesworth, Sir W.

List of the NOES.

Abdy, Sir T. N.

Bennet, P.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Beresford, W.

Anson, hon. Col.

Berkeley, Adm.

Archdall, Capt. M.

Berkeley, hon. H. F.

Arkwright, G.

Blackall, S. W.

Armstrong, Sir A.

Boldero, H. G.

Armstrong, R. B.

Bowles, Adm.

Arundel and Surrey, Earl of

Boyle, hon. Col.

Bramston, T. W.

Bagshaw, J.

Bremridge, R.

Baines, rt. hon. M. T.

Brockman, E. D.

Bankes, G.

Brooke, Lord

Baring, H. B.

Browne, R. D.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T.

Bunbury, E. H.

Baring, T.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Barnard, E. G.

Busfeild, W.

Bellew, R. M.

Cardwell, E.

701

Carew, W. H. P.

Heathcoat, J.

Carter, J. B.

Henley, J. W.

Chatterton, Col.

Herbert, H. A.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Childers, J. W.

Herries, rt. hon. J. C.

Christy, S.

Heywood, J.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Hildyard, R. C.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Hildyard, T. B. T.

Clive, H. B.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.

Cooks, T. S.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Coke, hon. E. K.

Hodges, T. L.

Cole, hon. H. A.

Hodgson, W. L.

Compton, H. C.

Hollond, R.

Corry, rt. hon. H. L.

Hood, Sir A.

Cowper, hon W. F.

Hotham, Lord

Crowder, R. B.

Howard, Lord E.

Dawson, hon. T. V.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Deedes, W.

Howard, P. H.

Denison, E.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Denison, J. E.

Jermyn, Earl

Dodd, G.

Jervis, Sir J.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Jones, Capt.

Douro, Marq. of

Kildare, Marq. of

Drummond, H. H.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Buncombe, hon. O.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Duncuft, J.

Legh, G. C.

Dundas, Adm.

Lemon, Sir C.

Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D.

Lennox, Lord A. G.

Dunne, Col.

Lewis, G. C.

Ebrington, Visct.

Lewisham, Visct.

Edwards, H.

Lindsay, hon. Col.

Ellice, rt. hon. E.

Loch, J.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Lockhart, W.

Enfield, Visct.

Lowther, H.

Estcourt, J. B.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Evans, W.

Mackie, J.

Farrer, J.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

M'Gregor, J.

Filmer, Sir E.

Mahon, Visct.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Manners, Lord J.

Foley, J. H. H.

Marshall, W.

Forster, M.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Fortescue, hon. J. W.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.

Fox, R. M.

Melgund, Visct.

Freestun, Col.

Monsell, W.

French, F.

Moore, G. H.

Glyn, G. C.

Mulgrave, Earl of

Goddard, A. L.

Muntz, G. F.

Gooch, E. S.

Newry & Morne, Visct.

Gordon, Adm.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

O'Connell, M.

Grace, O. H. J.

Ogle, S. C. U.

Greenall, G.

Ord, W.

Greene, T.

Owen, Sir J.

Grenfell, C. W.

Paget, Lord C.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Paget, Lord G.

Grey, R. W.

Palmer, R.

Grogan, E.

Palmerston, Vist.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Parker, J.

Grosvenor, Earl

Patten, J. W.

Guernsey, Lord

Pinney, W.

Guest, Sir J.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Gwyn, H.

Plumptre, J. P.

Hall, Col.

Power, Dr.

Hallyburton, Lord J. F.

Power, N.

Halsey, T. P.

Rawdon, Col.

Hamilton, G. A.

Reid, Col.

Harris, hon. Capt.

Ronton, J. C.

Hastie, A.

Reynolds, J.

Hatchell, J.

Ricardo, O.

Hawes, B.

Rice, E. R.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Rich, H.

Heald, J.

Romilly, Sir J.

702

Rushout, Capt.

Stephenson, R.

Russell, Lord J.

Stuart, J.

Russell, F. C. H.

Talbot, J. H.

Sadleir, J.

Thompson, Ald.

Sandars, G.

Townley, R. G.

Sandars, J.

Townshend, Capt.

Scrope, G. P.

Turner, G. J.

Seymer, H. K.

Vane, Lord H.

Shafto, R. D.

Verney, Sir H.

Shell, rt. hon. R. L.

Vesey, hon. T.

Sibthorp, Col.

Walpole, S. H.

Simeon, J.

Walsh, Sir J. B.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Wellesley, Lord C.

Smith, J. A.

Westhead, J. P. B.

Smythe, hon. G.

Williamson, Sir H.

Smollett, A.

Wilson, J.

Somers, J. P.

Wilson, M.

Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.

Wrightson, W. B.

Spearman, H. J.

Wyld, J.

Spooner, R.

Wyvill, M.

Stanford, J. K.

Stanley, E.

TELLERS.

Stanley, hon. E. H.

Tufnell, H.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Hill, Lord M.

Original Question put, and agreed to.
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, that as a Committee were sitting upstairs on the Army Estimates, he would take a half vote on the next item. He therefore moved that a sum of 1,700,000 l. on account be granted to Her Majesty to defray the charges and expenses of the land forces for the ensuing-year.
MR. HUMEsaid, that after the vote which the Committee had just come to, and the large majority against his Motion, he should take up their time unnecessarily if he did more than recommend the Government to take the subject of his Motion into their serious consideration.
MR. HERRIESthought that this repetition of the course pursued last year in taking votes on account, was liable in many respects to grave constitutional objections, and was a very inconvenient mode of despatching the public business. The House had no opportunity of discussing the propriety of this expenditure, or any part of the vote, for the first vote on account was taken without objection, and the other half was proceeded with at the close of the Session, when the public attention was no longer given to their proceedings, and when Ministers had the greatest facility for passing the rest of the vote. He doubted whether the House were not by this course leaving too much to the Committee upstairs. Was there any probability that their investigations would lead to any material economising of the vote proposed?
LORD J. RUSSELLquite agreed with the right hon. Member that if the course taken during this and the past year were adopted on every occasion, it would be very

703
objectionable; but these Committees had reported from time to time, and it was considered desirable that the House should have these reports before them before voting the money. The Estimates for the Navy and Ordnance were considered by the Committee upstairs, and were then proceeded with in the ordinary manner; and with regard to the Army Estimates, the course taken last year upon the Navy and Ordnance votes would be adopted.
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYasked why an increase of 14,000 l. in the vote for the removal of the land forces should appear on the present estimates?
MR. FOX MAULEsaid, that last year the removal of troops did not take place as usual, from motives of economy; but as it would be extremely inconvenient to postpone the usual general change of quarters for another year, that removal caused the increase alluded to.
Vote agreed to.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
SIR F. T. BARINGrose to make his statement on the Navy Estimates, when—
CAPTAIN HARRISobjected to proceed at so late an hour of the evening.
LORD J. RUSSELLthought it would be a disappointment to the House if the financial statement were not made on Friday; and if the Navy Estimates were not taken that night, it would be impossible that it could be then made.
SIR F. T. BARINGsaid, he would only take a vote as to the number of men, and not for the wages.
CAPTAIN HARRIS, with great deference to the right hon. Gentleman, must say that it was a very unusual course to go at once from one Committee to another. He would only say that by this proceeding he was debarred from making a statement that he wished to make on the question "that Mr. Speaker do leave the chair," with reference to manning the Navy.
SIR F. T. BARINGthen proceeded: The Vote which he had to propose to the Committee was a vote for fixing the number of men at 39,000, and in doing so, he would, as was usual on such occasions, bring before them a statement of the general expenditure of the Naval Estimates. The first vote to which he had to allude was one that he should bring forward with the more regret if he did not entertain the hope that it would be the last vote of that character that the House of Commons would be called upon to make—
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he meant the vote for making up the deficit of a former year. The vote for the deficiency of 1848–1849 amounted to the sum of 211,000 l., by which in that year the expenditure had gone beyond the estimates. This the House was aware had occurred on many previous occasions; and it would, perhaps, be recollected, that the late Secretary of the Admiralty stated last year that the deficit was likely to be from 250,000 l. to 260,000 l. It had not, however, reached that sum. He had always been of opinion, on whatever side of the House he happened to be, that the mode of making up by the votes of a subsequent year the deficiency of former estimates was a most unfortunate course to pursue; but it was a course not uncommon of late years. One of the causes from which this arose was the insufficiency of the sum voted for the number of seamen borne. All who were on the Committee of 1848 were aware that this unfortunate practice of exceeding the votes came on very gradually, the evil being very small at first, but becoming serious and important in the end. The sum voted for the number had been constantly below what was really employed; besides which, it was well known that the vote for wages was at best but a very loose statement—merely an approximate estimate—and that the mode in which the estimate was framed in later years was incorrect. It was also to be noted, that in 1848, when the estimates were proposed, the House having received them was so adverse to their passing that lower estimates were brought forward: the Government were anxious, as far as possible, to come within the lower estimates thus made; but it was found extremely difficult in so short a time as was allowed them to reduce the expenditure to the extent required, and the result had been that the expenditure, though below the original estimate, was not below the estimate subsequently given in. These things would in some measure account for the deficiency now to be made up; but he was happy to say, that this course would not be pursued on a future occasion. He was able to state, that though there had been expenses they were not prepared for, yet there would be a surplus for the year 1849–50, such as would enable them to meet the deficiencies of 1848–1849. He would now proceed with the general statement of the estimates. He gave for the effective service for 1850–51 a sum of 4,325,086 l.; for the non-effective service, 1,388,637 l.;

705
add to this, for the conveyance of troops, 135,000 l., and for the packet service 764,236 l., and they had a total of 6,613,659 l As compared with 1849–50, the reduction in the effective service was 406,972 l.; non-effective service, 5,533 l.; conveyance of troops, 11,500 l.—in all, 424,005 l.: deducting 16,000 l. for increase of the packet service it amounted to 408,000 l. But that was not quite a fair mode of ascertaining what had been effected within the last year for this purpose; it would be necessary to look at the expenditure of 1848–49. Comparing then the expenditure of 1848–49 with the estimates of 1850–51, the figures stood thus;—Expenditure for 1848–49, 7,947,376 l.; estimates for 1850–51, 6,613,659 l.; being a difference of 1,333,717 l. There was no intention on their part to over-estimate the reduction; but it was a course they were anxious to pursue, though, perhaps, they were not prepared to go to the extent of his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose. There was scarcely a single vote in which there had not been some reduction made in the course of the present year. He begged to be understood, that in speaking of the Admiralty of the present day, he was not making an invidious comparison between the present system and the system of former years. He was not going to claim merit for themselves for making reductions, or laying the fault of the expenditure on those who went before them. On the contrary, he felt bound to say that the expenditure in former years had enabled them to make reductions at present. And in many cases he believed that the persons who had increased the expenditure in former years, would, if they had continued in office, have made reductions in the expenditure. He regretted that his noble Friend Lord Auckland had not lived to see the reductions effected which he had contemplated. He had laid the foundation of a great number of those that had taken place, though it happened that he (Sir F. Baring) was the person to state them to the House. In going through the estimates he would state the recommendations of the Committee of 1848, which had been carried into effect, because great and important advantages had been derived from the labours of the Committee of 1848, and because it would show that their recommendations had not been neglected. It must, however, be remembered that but for the expenditure that had formerly been made in several instances, it
706
would have been impossible now to have made the reductions that had been effected. Taking the three votes together—namely, for men, wages, and victualling, the reduction in consequence of the proposed reduction of 1,000 men would be about 50,000 l. The Committee recommended that an alteration should be made in the mode of estimating the wages of the men which had been for many years adopted. That which was considered a great source of incorrectness had been altered, and the estimate for the last year was made in the mode introduced by his right hon. Friend the Member for Ripon when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, to which it was found convenient again to have recourse. The next and most important point was, that the number of men borne on the books should be kept within the number voted by Parliament. To do that without any deviation was almost impossible. The most attentive Board of Admiralty could not always bring the number of men within the vote. But, so far as the last year was concerned, they had been able to carry out that object; and, with the exception of the first month, it would be found, that the monthly returns of the number of men had been below the number voted. It was for the purpose of attaining that end that the Committee recommended that monthly returns should be stated in the estimate, which it would be found had been accordingly adopted. It was proposed to make a reduction of 1,000 men in the marine force. But in speaking of the number of men to be employed, he must be permitted to observe, that that was a subject in regard to which, to a certain degree, confidence must be placed in the Government. It was not easy to give all the particular reasons why the Government should fix upon any certain number of men. That must rest a great deal upon circumstances which it might not be convenient to state. But he could say, that on the 1st of April, 1848, the number of men actually borne on the books was 46,000, whereas the number voted for the present year was 39,000 men; but though 46,000 men were borne on the books in 1848, yet 43,000 men only were voted that year. There had been, therefore, a much larger reduction than would appear in the votes. Under present circumstances, the Government had carried the reduction as far as they could consistently with the efficiency of the service. The Committee might wish to learn the

707
distribution of the men. There were in the East Indies, China, and New Zealand, 2,748; Cape of Good Hope, 793; Africa, 2,452; South Eastern America, 993; Pacific, 2,618; North America and West Indies, 1,817; Mediterranean, 7,959; Lisbon, 3,096; home ports—Ireland and Scotland—5,130; packet service, 583; surveying service, 852; troop-ships, particular service yachts, 762; ordered home, or paying off, 1,310; and fitting out, 1,651. Intimately connected with the distribution of the men was the number of ships in commission. From the 1st of January, 1850, the total ships of the line in commission was 13; advanced and ordinary, 58; building, 15, of which three were ready to be launched. There were frigates in commission, 9; advanced and in ordinary, 58; building, 8; and three of which were ready to be launched. Vessels of a lower grade than frigates in commission, 92; advanced and ordinary, 79; building, 4; of which there were ready to be launched, 1. Of steam vessels there were in commission, 88; advanced and in ordinary, 68; building, 11, and of which there was I ready to be launched. So that there were 202 ships in commission; 263 advanced and in ordinary, and 38 building; and 6 of these ships were ready to be launched. Before quitting this part of the subject, he would state that it was the intention of the Government to reduce the number of the officers in the marine corps in proportion to the number of men that were reduced. A certain number of captains would therefore retire. It had been thought advisable to select for that purpose those officers who were at the head of the list, and to allow them to retire on full pay, rather than take the young captains and place them on half-pay, and to be recalled afterwards on service. This would add to the efficiency of the corps, and would be felt as a fair portion of favour to the marines. With regard to the victualling department, there would not only be a reduction by reason of the number of men being reduced, but also in consequence of the cheapness of provisions enabling the Admiralty to enter into more favourable contracts. There was one subject of deep interest to the whole service, but which he was not yet prepared to bring before the Committee—he meant the question of grog. It had occupied the attention of the Admiralty for some time; and the question had been laid before a committee of naval officers; and he hoped
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before long to lay the result of their labours before the House, and to be prepared with some proposal on the subject. The next vote was that for the Admiralty Office, in which also there was a reduction. The Committee had recommended that the number of those holding office in that department should be fixed by Order in Council, and that no excess of salary should be taken without the sanction of the Treasury. This plan had been adopted in effect, though not exactly in words. The Admiralty had gone back to the old system of having the establishment settled by Order in Council. The Committee had observed that a large quantity of extra work was done by the clerks of the office, and they recommended that the system should cease. That recommendation would be acted upon; at the same time, it must he observed that when so many returns were required to be made to Parliament, it was not possible to get them ready without extra work. He could, however, state, that during the last year ten clerks had been reduced at the Admiralty, at Whitehall, and at Somerset House. Another arrangement had been made, which was much in accordance with the opinion of the Committee, and by which the whole steam department was placed under the control of the Surveyor of the the Navy. His early attention had been turned to this point, and an opportunity having offered of placing the person who had hitherto superintended the steam department of the Navy in another situation, he had placed the whole of that department, together with the building department, under the authority of the Surveyor of the Navy. He was not quite sure that his gallant friend Sir Baldwin Walker would be able to perform all the duties connected with that department without further assistance; still, as his gallant friend was so confident that he would be able to do so, he (Sir F. Baring) had bowed to his opinion, and had entirely abolished the controllership of the steam department. In the surveying and scientific department, the vote was in conformity with the recommendation of the Committee. He now came to the dockyard establishments. The salaries to officers, and wages to workmen, of the dockyards, both at home and abroad, he should deal with under one head. Upon the estimate for that head of the present year, as compared with that of last year, there was a reduction of 81,000 l; and, as compared with the esti-

709
mates of 1848–9,130,000 l. The whole of the yards at home had been examined, and the expenditure cheeked, by the Lords of the Admiralty, with the assiatance of Sir Baldwin Walker, and by those means a considerable reduction had been effected. Abroad, the admirals on the stations had been required, either themselves to go into the different items of expenditure, or to appoint a committee of officers for the purpose; and in that way each yard abroad had been examined and reported; and the result had been some small reduction. He would state the number of workmen employed in the dockyards on the 1st of. April, 1848–9, as compared with the number for the 1st of April, 1849–50. The reduction began on the 1st of January, 1848, when there were on the establishment 9,290. On the 1st of April the number had increased to 9,519; on the 1st of April, 1849, it was 9,630; and on the 1st of April, 1850, it would be 9,621. In addition to that number there was an immense number of hired workmen not on the establishment. On the 1st of January, 1848, the total number of those on the establishment and those who were not was 12,218, and on the 1st of April, 1848, 11,430; on the 1st of April, 1849, 10,142, and on the 1st of April, 1850, the number estimated was 9,621; and there were also some temporarily employed as spinners for particular dockyards; but that would terminate when that particular work was over. The number so employed was 420, making for the 1st of April, 1850, 10,041, being a reduction of 2,177, as compared with the number on the 1st of January, 1848. Again, on the 1st of April, 1849, the number of men employed in the factories at Woolwich and Portsmouth was 1,856. The number proposed to be taken this year was 1,155, being a reduction of 701. He did not mean to say that in future years there might not be some further reduction under the same head; but for the present he considered that 2,000 workmen being reduced since the 1st of January, 1848, and 700 in the factories since the 1st of April, 1849, was as far as he could go with a due regard to the efficiency of the service. The recommendation, indeed, of the Committee had been, that these establishments should be fixed by an Order in Council. The Committee had recommended the reduction of the factory at Holyhead. Since the estimates had been framed, the Government had been enabled to enter into a contract for the packet ser-
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vice between Kingstown and Holyhead upon reasonable terms, part of which was, that the parties should hire the Government factories at Holyhead; and consequently, so far as the Government was concerned, there was no danger that the factory there should be continued. Another recommendation proposed by the Committee, and strongly urged by them, was one the justice of which, he fully admitted, was incontestable. They recommended that in the selection of officers for superintendents of yards, the Government should not think it necessary to confine themselves to the older officers of the service, but should select those who were most fitted for the duties. He was well aware that in adopting that recommendation he had disappointed the expectations of many gallant officers; but he had felt it his duty to carry that recommendation into effect, knowing that there was nothing upon which the efficiency of the department and the expenditure so much depended as on the eye of the superintendent of the yards, without which all regulations would be useless. He now came to that which was one of the most important votes—the Store vote. The Committee had made a recommendation upon an extremely difficult part of that subject—the supply of oak. The supply had been practically a monopoly in the hands of a certain party. That party was dead, and for the present year there had been a contract with a new party. The reduction in this vote had been very considerable. The vote for this year was 878,599/., being a reduction, as compared with that of last year, of 290,270 l., and as compared with the expenditure of 1848 and 1849, of 556,072 l. The principle upon which the Government proposed to act, was to take the principal stores as they stood in 1849, and, calculating on the average expenditure which would be expended in the course of the next year, to take the estimate for that which would replace the amount actually expended. Therefore, although there was a great reduction, they were not going to work on the old stores, but proposed to keep the stores in a wholesome state, and leave them as they found them last year. In the present state of steam machinery, it was advisable not to keep largo stores of steam-engines. Improvements were always going on, and he thought it better now not to expend large sums in such stores. With respect to new works, as compared with last year, there was a considerable reduction. The estimate for 1848–9 was

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626,000 l. For the present year it was 324,000 l., being a reduction of 300,000 l., in consequence of the works which had been carried on at Portsmouth, and those which had been commenced at other places by his lamented predecessor having been completed. At that late hour it would not be necessary for him to go at any length into the charges for the miscellaneous services connected with the Navy; but he might say, generally, that in those portions of the estimates the recommendations of the Committee had been in great part adopted. As to the non-effective votes, the Committee had made two recommendations, which the Board of Admiralty were enabled to carry out: one of these was, that one lieutenant should be promoted for every three vacancies; the other was, the limitation of the number of cadets to 100. At present the number was 96. The exact number of the cadets should appear in the estimates in a future year. He had only further to add, that no very considerable reduction appeared to have taken place in the non-effective vote. But the reason was, that we had fewer ships in commission. The half-pay increased as the full pay diminished, and when we reduced a large number of workmen, the pensions to which some of them were entitled diminished the apparent saving. The apparent result was, that there was not so great a reduction in the non-effective as in the effective departments; but looking at the subject as it ought to be regarded, supposing the whole Navy to be now on half-pay, then the result would be, that our reductions in the non-effective branch would appear as they really were—greater than any which had taken place of late years. A number of the miscellaneous recommendations of the Committee had, he might add, been carried out. The Committee recommended entering, as far as possible, into contracts for packet service; and since the estimates were prepared, contracts had been entered into respecting the Holyhead and Kingstown packets, and those contracts were in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee. Other lines were under consideration, such as that between Hong Kong and Australia, as well as steam communication with Brazil. This, however, would not call for any very large sum of money, and he could assure the House that every effort had been made to reduce expenditure to the lowest point that was at all consistent with efficiency.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
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"That 39,000 men be employed for the Sea Service for thirteen lunar months, including 11,000 Royal Marines and 2,000 Boys."
MR. HUMEsaid, that he had remained, late as the hour was, to record his opposition to so extravagant a vote. Ministers had talked of following out the recommendations of the Committee; but had they, as the Committee recommended, reduced the 150 admirals to 100, though they had contrived to reduce the poor men in the dockyards? It appeared to him that there was no reason whatever for a fleet so large—a fleet in the Mediterranean doing mischief—it was scattering money which the country could not very well spare. Looking at the average number of men voted during the last six years, he found it to be 31,459; and he should now move as an Amendment, that that be the number for the present year.
Afterwards Motion made, and Question put—
"That 31,400 men be employed for the Sea Service for thirteen lunar months, including 11,000 Royal Marines, and 2,000 Boys."
SIR G. PECHELLexpressed the great satisfaction with which he had listened to the statement of the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty; but there was a point on which he wished to make an observation. He understood that the allowance of grog to the sailors was now a matter under consideration, and he must be allowed to say that it was a very ticklish affair; and, in abolishing any portion of the allowance of grog, they ought to proceed most cautiously.
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, that although the naval service ought to be maintained, yet he did think that in the Admiralty department a saving might be effected.
CAPTAIN PELHAMregretted that a vote on so important a subject should be taken at so late an hour, and thought the proper course would be for the Chairman to report progress. The country would not be satisfied with the economy of the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Admiralty, and there would be further reductions before long, which could be carried into effect without in any way injuring the efficiency of that service which was the real strength of this country. On general grounds he would vote with the hon. Member for Montrose, if he persisted in dividing the House.
MR. BANKESagreed entirely with the hon. Member for Montrose, that a portion

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of our naval force was employed in a very questionable manner at this moment; and when such was the case, year after year, it could not be matter of surprise to find the naval estimates were exceeded. He should be glad to be informed by the noble Lord opposite in what light they were to consider the Grecian vessels captured by our fleet, which, up to the present moment, according to a statement in that day's paper, amounted to 160 sail. Were they to be considered as prizes taken in war or not? We had subjected ourselves to the mediation of another Power, and if they decreed we were wrong, we should have to pay damages, which would cause another excess of naval estimates.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I rather think the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorsetshire is misinformed with respect to the number of vessels taken. At least, by the last accounts we have received, they were only between 40 and 50. The condition in which those vessels are is that of pledges taken and held in deposit for the satisfaction of the claims of this country. If those claims are satisfied, then those vessels are released. If it should be necessary to carry reprisals out to the full extent under the law of nations, they will be condemned and sold, and the proceeds will be applied to the purpose of satisfying those demands by means of the process well known to the law of nations where a commission issues under an Order in Council. With regard to the apprehension which the hon. Gentleman seems to entertain, I beg to inform him that we have not accepted the arbitration of any Power. We have accepted the good offices of France with the view of obtaining an amicable settlement of our claims. There is no subjection on the part of our Government to any arbitration.
CAPTAIN HARRISsuggested, that as the Army had three field-marshals, the Navy ought to have two admirals of the fleet, and advocated the claims of Sir G. Cockburn to the distinction.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 19; Noes 117: Majority 98.

List of the AYES.

Adair, H. E.

Kershaw, J.

Bouverie, hon. E P.

Morris, D.

Brotherton, J.

Pechell, Sir G. B.

Cobden, R.

Pelham, hon. D. A.

Fordyce, A. D.

Pilkington, J.

Frewen, C. H.

Salwey, Col.

Greene, J.

Thompson, Col.

Hastie, A.

Thornely, T.

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Walmsley, Sir J.

TELLERS.

Wawn, J. T.

Hume, J.

Williams, J.

Gibson, T. M.

List of the NOES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Anson, hon. Col.

Hodges, T. L.

Armstrong, R. B.

Hodgson, W. N.

Baines, rt. hon. M. T.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Bankes, G.

Howard, P. H.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T.

Jermyn, Earl

Baring, T.

Jervis, Sir J.

Bellew, R. M.

Jones, Capt.

Berkeley, Adm.

Kildare, Marq. of

Blackall, S. W.

Lennox, Lord A. G.

Blair, S.

Lewis, G. C.

Boldero, H. G.

Lewisham, Visct.

Bowles, Adm.

Lindsay, hon. Col.

Cardwell, E.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Carew, W. H. P.

Mahon, The O'Gorman

Carter, J. B.

Mandeville, Visct.

Cavendish, hon. C. C.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Cavendish, hon. G. H.

Moffatt, G.

Cavendish, W. G.

Mulgrave, Earl of

Childers, J. W.

Naas, Lord

Christy, S.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Owen, Sir J.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Paget, Lord A.

Cocks, T. S.

Paget, Lord C.

Corry, rt. hon. H. L.

Palmerston, Visct.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Parker, J.

Crowder, R. B.

Portal, M.

Douro, Marq. of

Power, Dr.

Duckworth, Sir J. T. B.

Rawdon, Col.

Duncuft, J.

Ricardo, O.

Dundas, Adm.

Rice, E. R.

Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D.

Rich, H.

Dunne, Col.

Romilly, Sir J.

Ebrington, Visct.

Rushout, Capt.

Estcourt, J. B.B.

Russell, Lord J.

Evans, W.

Russell, F. C. H.

Farrer, J.

Seymer, H. K.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Sibthorp, Col.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Simeon, J.

Fortescue, hon. J. W.

Smollett, A.

Freestun, Col.

Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.

Gordon, Adm.

Spooner, R.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Stanley, hon. E. H.

Grace, O. D. J.

Talbot, J. H.

Greene, T.

Tenison, E. K.

Grenfell, C. W.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir J.

Thompson, Ald.

Guernsey, Lord

Townshend, Capt.

Gwyn, H.

Turner, G. J.

Hallyburton, Lord J. F.

Vesey, hon. T.

Harris, hon. Capt.

Wellesley, Lord C.

Hatchell, J.

Westhead, J. P. B.

Hawes, B.

Williamson, Sir H.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Headlam, T. E.

Wilson, J.

Henley, J. W.

Wrightson, W. B.

Herbert, H. A.

Wyld, J.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

TELLERS.

Hildyard, R. C.

Tufnell, H.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.

Hill, Lord M.

Original Question put, and agreed to.
The House resumed; Chairman reported progress.
Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.
The House adjourned at One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Railway Audit.

DEFALCATIONS OF SIR THOMAS TURTON.
LORD BROUGHAMpresented a petition from Alexander Brodie, manager of the Bank of Scotland at Stirling, complaining of losses incurred by certain persons through the defalcations of a person whom he once called his hon. and learned Friend, but whom he could call so no longer, as every man must he anxious to dissociate himself as widely as possible from an individual who had so misconducted himself—
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he meant Sir Thomas Turton, late the Registrar of the Supreme Court at Calcutta. The petitioner complained that he had been compelled by law to invest the funds which he had lost in the hands of the Registrar; and he (Lord Brougham) suggested to his noble Friend the President of the Council that this part of the law should be immediately taken into consideration by Her Majesty's Government. There was no discovering the party who ought to make compensation for these losses. The East India Company contended that they were not liable, because the Registrar was not an officer of their appointment, and Her Majesty's Government denied its responsibility, because he was not a nominee of theirs. The fact was that the Crown, not the East India Company, nominated the Judges of the Supreme Courts in India, and that the Judges were the parties who nominated and appointed the Registrars. He thought that Her Majesty's Government might interfere in this case as it had done in the case of Mr. Ricketts, where compensation had been given to all parties suffering by his default. He had promised to state the case of the petitioner to the House—he had performed his promise, and that was all he could do for him. As to the rest, he must leave it in the hands of the Government.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEobserved, that his noble and learned Friend was quite correct in supposing that this question was one which had been for some time past under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. It was, however, one extremely difficult to deal with; and he could not, at present, declare what might be the conclusion of Her Majesty's advisers upon it.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONsaid, that he had listened with great attention to what had fallen from the two noble Lords who had preceded him; but there was one point which both of them had failed to notice. Now, what he wanted to know was this—were the Judges who appointed the Registrar required by law, or not, to take security from their nominee for the due discharge of all the duties of his office?
LORD BROUGHAMbelieved that they were required by law to take securities for his due and efficient discharge of the duties of his office; but they were not securities for him themselves.
The DUKE of WELLINGTON: In my opinion, if the Judges did not demand from their officer the securities required by law,

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They are themselves liable for his defalcations.
Petition to lie on the table.

OATHS TAKEN BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.
LORD BROUGHAMthen presented a petition from two noble Members of their Lordships' House, the Earl of Clancarty and the Earl of Bradford. They stated that they were by hereditary right entitled to the right of sitting and voting in their Lordships' House; but that they were excluded from the exercise of the privileges of sitting and voting in this House, by a conscientious objection to taking the oath called the Oath of Supremacy as at present administered; and praying that the oaths as at present required to be administered to Members of Parliament, may be modified with a view to the relief of such objection. They said that the language of the oath was inconsistent with the fact, and that they could not swear "that no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate, hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superirity, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm." They did not object to the words, "ought to have," but they did to the word "hath;" for they stated that by an Act passed in a late Session of Parliament, and generally entitled the Charitable Trusts (Ireland) Act, the existence and constitution of the Church of Rome was legally recognised within these islands. They therefore called upon their Lordships for relief. He had no occasion to tell those two noble Lords, for they knew it as well as any of their Lordships, that they could only obtain that relief in one way, and that was not by a Resolution of their Lordships' House, but by an Act of Parliament. They must, by the Act of Parliament now in force, take that oath in some public place before they could take their seats in that House; and if he were to say in any place, save in that House, where he was not amenable elsewhere for any words he might utter—for instance, if be were to say out of doors that their Lordships, by a resolution of their own, had the power to relieve these two noble Lords from the necessity of taking the oath of supremacy, without the assent of the Crown, or without the assent of the other House of Parliament, he should render himself liable to punishment of a highly grave and serious character; and therefore he durst not propose even to their
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Lordships that those two Peers should be allowed to sit in that assembly without taking the oaths required bylaw. Supposing, for instance, that a Jew were entitled by the bounty of the Crown to take his seat in that House—and he might be allowed to use this argument, for no man, to the extent of his humble abilities, had been more active in seeking to procure for them admission into the Legislature—he should never dream of allowing him to take his seat by means of a resolution declaring that in his case the ordinary oaths should be dispensed with. He had said thus much, because a report had been current for the last forty-eight hours on the subject of the admission of Jews into the other House of Parliament—a report to which he had not hesitated, on behalf of his noble Friend opposite, to give the most flat and positive contradiction. It was so wild and extravagant a report that it was almost absurd to give it a serious contradiction. To say that the Jews, who had been kept out of Parliament by having been refused admission at the front door, would be enabled to be smuggled in by the back door, was a calumny on Her Majesty's Ministers so monstrous that he could not believe a single word of it. If the Jews could get into Parliament by the authority of an Act of Parliament, well; he should not object to such a measure, but should cordially support it; but that they could get in by an alteration of the oath, resting on a Resolution of the other House of Parliament alone, and not on an Act of Parliament, was monstrous, and he took it for granted that Her Majesty's Ministers had never even dreamt of such a thing, and that they would oppose it, if others either dreamt of or proposed a measure of such unquestionable folly.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLwas convinced that if the terms of this oath were not altered in the present Session, many other Peers would feel themselves excluded from their seats by the impossibility of subscribing to them. He therefore hoped that Her Majesty's Ministers would give their Lordships a pledge that the terms of this oath should be altered before the close of the present Session.
LORD REDESDALEstated that he did not place the same construction on the words of the oath of supremacy as had been put on it by the two noble Peers in question; and yet he had, he hoped, as tender a conscience as any other of their Lordships.
The EARL of LANESBOROUGHsaid a few words, which were not distinctly heard.
Petition ordered to lie on the table.

RAILWAY AUDIT BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL GRANVILLE, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said, that he had gone so fully into its details on the occasion of the first reading, and those of their Lordships who were most interested in the measure had had such ample opportunity for considering its provisions, that he would not now travel over the same ground again, although he should feel happy to give their Lordships any information on the subject they might require. He should, therefore, confine himself to a statement of the reasons which had induced Her Majesty's Government to introduce the measure in its present shape. Their Lordships were aware that by the present law it was attempted to provide for the proper keeping of railway accounts and for their efficient audit, and that as soon as the present Railway Board was constituted by the existing Government, the hon. Member who was at the head of that board brought in a Bill on the subject. But the clause in that Bill giving the Railway Commissioners power to inspect railway accounts, met with so violent an opposition that it did not pass the House of Commons. The opposition of some of the opponents of the measure at the time, both in and out of the House of Commons, had resulted in the right hon. Gentleman at the head of that department being driven from the office he held; although it was found that some of the most active promoters of that opposition were not free from the irregularities against which the clause in question had been intended to provide. About two years ago the subject was taken up by a noble Lord, a Member of their Lordships' House (Lord Mont-eagle), who having filled the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, and being Comptroller of the Exchequer, was particularly well qualified to undertake it. Having applied himself with his usual zeal and industry to the preparation of a measure, the noble Lord introduced a Bill, which in some respects might be called a Shareholders' Bill, as it gave power to a certain number of shareholders in a company to call upon the Railway Commissioners to
624
audit their accounts. That Bill passed their Lordships' House unanimously; it went to the House of Commons, where its second reading was moved. The Bill was supported by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade; but the railway interest, injudiciously as he (Earl Granville) thought, opposed it, and it did not pass the House of Commons. In the following year the noble Lord to whom he had referred moved the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the question of railway audit. That Committee met often, and various resolutions were passed, upon which a Bill was afterwards founded. He might say that the real difficulty experienced by that Committee was to procure persons to come forward to give bonâ fide testimony upon the different matters involved in the inquiry: but the Committee came to a resolution affirming the necessity of having a system of railway audit. The Committee had before them representatives from all the great railway companies, and many of the gentlemen of experience in these matters had declared that the present system of auditing railway accounts was mere moonshine. The noble Lord to whom he had referred offered to relinquish the Bill into the hands of the Government; but the Government felt that it could not be in better hands, although in the other House of Parliament it was undertaken by the Government. While that Bill was yet under discussion, a deputation waited upon the noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown, stated their opposition to the measure, and added that if it were persevered in, another month would be added to the Session. Subsequently a measure on the subject had been suggested by parties connected with the North Western Company, but that proposition had not been entertained by the Government, as it was not considered that it provided an efficient and independent system of audit. It contained, for instance, the inherent defect of all other railway audits, namely, that the auditors were to be named by the directors, and were chosen for one year only, thereby leaving them insecure as to their future election, and subject to be influenced by the directors in consequence. It was then that he had been induced to ask their Lordships to give a first reading to this Bill, and within the last hour he might say that he had seen several gentlemen connected with those who had before opposed the measure of the noble Lord, who now said that they had reconsidered the Bill, the

625
principle of which remained, but in the details of which there were some alterations which would be explained. Now, with regard to the introduction of a measure on this subject, the Government felt that it would be unfair to the public, to their Lordships, and to the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle), if they had not at once come forward to explain their views upon the subject. The Government conceived that the great complaint of those who objected to the present system was that we were without a real, independent, and continuous audit of railway accounts. Their Lordships were bound to consider the arguments which were urged in public, impugning and defending such a measure. Some of those arguments they could not admit to be arguments of any value or force at all, especially those arguments in which it was contended that the solvency of railway companies was a question in which the public had no interest, and which only belonged to the shareholders and the directors. Now, he could not admit that this was true. When it was considered that Parliament had legislated specially on behalf of railway companies, and had conferred upon them great powers—that the network of those railways throughout the country had expanded to so large an extent, and that the operations of the Post Office and the transmission of troops were dependent upon them—he was certainly of opinion that the public as well as the directors and shareholders in railways were deeply interested in their solvency. He denied that it had been the intention of the noble Lord either to obtain any degree of undue credit, or to procure an additional opportunity for the exercise of patronage for the Government. So little founded were these charges, and particularly the latter one, that at one time undoubtedly the Government intended to have secured a greater degree of direct influence in the operations of the board, than they would possess under the Bill be-fore them; but upon a due consideration of the whole subject, they thought it better to alter their views in that respect so as to prevent any such pretence being made a handle of, and giving rise to any difficulty in the other if not in this House as to the passing of the Bill. He would merely re-mind the House that under the provisions of this Bill there would be a railway central board continually employed in the auditing of railway accounts. The constitution of that board he had already ex-
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plained, and he had now only to ask their Lordships to pass the scond reading of the Bill.
LORD STANLEYwould not oppose the second reading, unless, indeed, the remaining stages of the bill were to be pressed forward precipitately. In addressing himself to the subject before their Lordships, he confessed that he did not claim to be heard as an authority upon the matter. He had never attended a railway meeting, and he had never held a railway share, while, practically, he was conversant neither with the management of railways, nor the abuses or difficulties which had been found to prevail in connection with them, and which were said to require legislative improvement. Still, however, he addressed them because he had had that morning the honour of receiving a deputation, the authority of which he thought the House would be likely to recognise when he told them that it was composed of delegates from all the principal railways in the kingdom, representing no less than 119,000,000 l. of paid-up capital. Now, had these gentlemen come to him with a proposition to resist an effective audit, he should have been the very last person to assist them, for, ignorant as he was of railway matters, he had heard and known enough of them to be well convinced that a really effective audit was indispensable for the good management of railways, and for the interests not only of the shareholders but of the public. Now, he did not mean to deny that the union of the railway companies on this subject had been, if not caused, at least accelerated, by the introduction of the Bill brought in by the Government, and to which they were asked that night to give a second reading; but his noble Friend had admitted the difficulties to be surmounted and the obstacles to be overcome in legislating upon this subject, and therefore he trusted that he would not be inclined to turn a deaf ear to the proposals which he (Lord Stanley) had to make upon the subject. Within the last three or four hours he had been waited upon by a deputation composed of the representatives of the principal railway companies—the representatives, indeed, of the vast majority of those undertakings. These gentlemen bad come to an agreement with respect to the present measure of railway audit, and their opinions upon the subject they wished to be stated through him to their Lordships. The Bill before them, in the opinion of these gentlemen, professed to provide that which was most desirable—

627
a really effective, although not an independent audit. It did not provide an audit exclusive of the shareholders. The deputation stated to him several objections to the principle of that Bill, and he was sure that the subject was one in respect to which Government, if they could obtain the consent of the great majority of the parties interested, would gladly agree to give way upon minor points and matters of detail. To the Bill, then, as at present proposed, railway directors and railway shareholders entertained great objection; and he had now in his hand the printed draught of a Bill, which had been framed by the delegates of these railway companies, and which, if they would permit him to lay it upon the table of the House, would be tomorrow ready for presentation, and would be found to embody a scheme which they conceived would obviate the objections to the Bill of the Government, and prove beneficial to the shareholders. This deputation was by no means a deputation from the directors of railways. It was one emphatically emanating from the shareholders, and in many cases it consisted of individuals selected on account of the antagonistic position in which they had stood towards directors. These gentlemen stated to him objections to the Government measure, objections both of principle and detail. The first objection of the former class to which he would advert was that of centralisation. They objected that any three persons, be they who they might, should in themselves be invested with such a degree of authority and control over all the railways of the country, as the auditor would possess under this Bill. They objected, also, to the degree of control which Government would exercise over the auditors so chosen. It was true that the auditors were to be selected by delegates chosen out of all the railway companies; but what ground had his noble Friend for saying that after they were chosen, Government had no control over them? That was not the case. The auditors were to be appointed by delegates, but after their appointment Government could continue them in their offices, notwithstanding the objections or the well-founded complaints of the delegates and the companies. He did not say that Government would abuse that power, but under the provisions of the Bill they clearly possessed it. Besides this, Government were to fix the salaries of the auditors, and of all the persons to be appointed under them—persons who would form a most ex-
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tensive and most expensive staff. But Government had also another duty to perform under this Bill; 10,000 l was to be levied, according to his noble Friend, who had much underrated the expense of this audit board, from the different companies—whether 10,000 l. or 20,000 l, or 30,000 l. signified little—it had to be raised from the different railway companies. Then the Government was to declare, or, to speak more correctly, the board of audit was to declare, and Government was to sanction, the principles upon which that sum was to be distributed and raised upon the different railway companies. As the Bill provided for the amount to be expended, it was important to know on what principle that amount was to be collected from the different companies. On what principle, then, were they going to impose that rate? By the amount of capital, or by the amount of dividend? Some companies had large capital and no dividend, and others had small capital but large dividends. How was the rate to be apportioned and collected in such a discrepancy of cases? Well, but the expense to which he was referring was calculated at 10,000 l. He believed, and in saying so he spoke the opinions of the deputation, that that amount would be found wholly insufficient. The clerks, secretaries, and travellers of the London establishment would absorb 3,000 l. or 4,000 l. out of the 10,000 l. Why, the audit-office in Liverpool of the London and North Western Railway cost upwards of 4,000 l. a year; and the clearing-house in Euston-square cost upwards of 13,000 l. a year. The Railway Commission which actually existed, cost 15,000 l.; and to suppose that the 4,000 l., or 5,000 l. which might be over after the expense of the London establishment had been defrayed would support the other necessary expenses, was, he believed, to entertain a most unreasonable proposition. But whatever the amount might actually be, it would be an amount over and above the actually existing expenditure of the companies. They must still continue to have their own audits, and to carry on their own business their own way; and he must say, that the addition of an indefinite amount of expenditure to that which they now actually were laying out, was a proposition to which they very naturally demurred. Again, the deputation represented that the proposed central board were to employ travelling clerks, who were to investigate the affairs of all companies in their own localities. This

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was a provision which afforded reasonable grounds of apprehension, inasmuch as the companies feared that these clerks would be persons not inaccessible to such influences as might be employed by rival companies to induce them to reveal the details of business and management with which, in their official capacities, they might become acquainted. Again: this board of audit was for the alleged purpose of protecting the shareholders—for the alleged purpose of preventing the "cooking" of accounts. Now, he should wish to know from his noble Friend how this object was to be accomplished? At present railway accounts were annually made up to the 31st of December, and the meetings of the companies took place about the 15th of February. Now, between those periods it might be competent for the auditors of an individual railway company to go through the transactions of that company, and to make such a statement as should satisfy the shareholders; but he held it to be totally impracticable for any three gentlemen to whom they could submit the task, between the 31st of December and the 15th of February, to go through an examination of and regularly audit the accounts of no less than 183 railway companies. But what were they, in the meantime, to do as to the half-yearly dividends? To audit all the accounts would take at least six months. In what order, then, and according to what arrangement, were the auditors to proceed to settle the affairs of the different companies? Those which were longest postponed would have reasonable grounds of complaint. But were they, or were any of them, to wait for the declaration and distribution of the dividend until their accounts had been audited? If such were intended, not only would there be an undue postponement of the dividend, but to the auditor would virtually be left the task of fixing the amount of that dividend. Well, but what would be the case, supposing the opposite alternative to be adopted? Suppose, after the shareholders had received 6 per cent, the audit proved that they ought only to have received 4 per cent. The inference at once was, that the audit would be ineffectual in checking approaching mischief, however effectually it might expose that mischief after it had been committed. These were some of the objections of the deputation to a general audit; but that deputation was not averse to a bonâ fide substantial audit, which would give them a due statement of their
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affairs. He admitted that a measure upon the subject had been too long postponed; and that with the closing of the capital accounts, one of the principal temptations to railway mismanagement was disappearing. Still a great many shareholders and directors had been proved to be very careless, and a good many directors to be very corrupt. The shareholders had, indeed, as a body, been careless as regarded everything excepting the amount of the dividend which they were to receive. But those days were gone by; the current was now setting the other way, and the danger seemed to be that of shareholders placing too little rather than too much confidence in their directors. They would not look upon a director as an honest man, but would be inclined to set him down at once as a rogue; and the falling dividend would quicken the shortsightedness of the shareholders. The Bill before them, therefore, came at a period when it was much less requisite than formerly, but still he thought that their Lordships would not consider that all necessity for such a measure had ceased. The desire of the shareholders was, that while the Legislature compelled them to institute an effective audit, that audit should not be altogether taken out of their own hands, believing, as they did, that the audit of each railway should be left in the hands of the shareholders of that railway. He would therefore state the principal provisions of the Bill with which he had been entrusted, and to which he had already referred. It proposed, then, that the shareholders of all companies should, each for itself, select a committee of audit, such committee in the case of each railway to consist of five members; that the committee should be composed of persons possessing such an amount of qualification as would entitle them to become directors, but that the members should not be directors or office-holders of the railway, or even persons under the control of directors or office-holders; and that no director should, by his own vote or by proxies, have any voice in the appointment of the committee. The audit committee being thus constituted, it was proposed that it should recommend two or more auditors, and certify fourteen days before the general meeting the names of the persons so recommended, and that no directors or office-holders whatever should have any vote whatever with regard to the nomination of those auditors so recommended by the committee. The Bill went on to provide that the accounts

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should be kept in a regular form, as specified in a schedule, and that the auditors, having very full and general powers for the examination of all papers and transactions, should certify to the directors if they found anything irregular and objectionable. If the directors took no notice of such information, then it was proposed that the auditors should have the power of reporting to the general body of shareholders the abuse or irregularity which they had discovered. It was also provided that each set of auditors should employ a public accountant—such accountant being wholly unconnected with the company—to assist in going through and auditing the accounts. It was further proposed, that the half-yearly report should be sent to every shareholder seven days before a meeting; and in order to protect the minority, it was provided that a minority of not less than twenty persons, holding not less than one-twentieth part of the paid-up capital, should have the power of appointing a special auditor—at their own expense—unless from the result of his investigation the majority should deem it desirable that the expense should be borne by the company. There was another proposition in the Bill not connected with the matter of audit, but regulating and controlling the functions and office of directors. It was proposed that at the period of the directors retiring, only one of the retiring directors should be eligible for re-election, and that the directors should be prohibited absolutely, and at all meetings, from holding proxies at the expense of the company. Now, this was a very important cheek, giving the shareholders a fair and bonâ fide control over their property. Under the present practice, directors were allowed to bring down as many proxies as they might think fit, costing 2s. 6d. each, and consequently persons with twenty or thirty proxies each were able not only to control the proceedings of the meeting, but to put the company to very great expense. The Bill, therefore, as he had stated, abolished the system of directors holding proxies at the expense of the companies, unless in the case of a general meeting declaring that, for a special and particular purpose, proxies should be allowed to represent the opinions of shareholders. The Bill went on to provide that a register of shareholders should be made up monthly; that a list of all shareholders qualified for directors should be in the hands of the shareholders in general twenty-one days
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before the time of meeting; and that the business to be transacted should be specified in the notice convening the meeting to which it referred. These were the principal provisions of the Bill which he had that day received from the deputation of which he had spoken. What he had undertaken to do was to state the objections which they entertained to the present measure, and to lay upon the table the scheme to which they were prepared to adhere. He trusted, therefore, that Government would not object to his introducing the Bill in question, with the view of having it printed and distributed; and, if his noble Friend pressed the second reading of his Bill this evening, that his doing so would not be considered as precluding the future consideration of the measure which he had now to lay upon the table of their Lordships.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he much rejoiced to find that Her Majesty's Government had taken this subject into their own hands, admitting, as he fully did, that all the previous attempts at remedial legislation on this subject had left matters pretty nearly as they had previously been. It was undeniable that the necessity for an improved system of audit would diminish in proportion to the number of capital accounts which were in course of being closed up. But the noble Lord was more sanguine than he was about the closing up of capital accounts. If they were not to be so soon closed as people expected, and if companies came to Parliament for more capital, it would be as necessary as ever to have the and of an effective audit; and nothing could be more evident than that, if an audit had been discontinued by reason of closing the capital account, if it were again resumed by the creation of new capital, in opening up the capital account again the two accounts of the earlier and the later capital should not be intelligibly united the one with the other. He was not prepared to give his approval to the measure of the Government, though he rejoiced that they had taken the subject up; at the same time his objections to the Bill were different from those of the noble Lord opposite. He hoped their Lordships would remember that in dealing with this matter they were dealing with a vast amount of property, an investment of not less than 200,000,000 l When he called to mind the property sunk in those undertakings, he could not help feeling strongly how unfortunate it was

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that the public had been left to the present time without any good system of audit; it was a state of affairs seriously injurious to the interests of the country, as well as injurious to the shareholders—most injurious likewise to the commercial character of the country, both at home and abroad: such misapplication of powers, such betrayal of trusts, such utter disregard of law and of everything like justice and equity, had Inflicted, in his opinion, a greater blow on the commercial character of England than any which it had sustained since the time of the South Sea Bubble. It had led to an extent of gambling in this country of which scarcely any parallel could be found; and he feared that from this moral responsibility Parliament was not altogether free, for Parliament had developed, if it did not directly encourage, the reckless speculation of which they had heard so many and such just complaints. But, bad as all this was, something worse remained which the country might still be fated to endure. As a necessary consequence springing from wild gambling, the uncertainty left on men's minds was such that no one could trust railway accounts. At the present moment no one felt any confidence that dividends, when paid, were paid out of profits; they had no security that such dividends were paid out of profits or paid out of capital. They might have confidence in the character of the directors; they might rely upon the personal integrity of more than one individual who held a seat at the board of direction; but in the system itself they had no confidence whatever. And this was but just, for it deserved no confidence. He would take the instance of the Caledonian Railway among other railways that might be mentioned, and in which it would be found that a great portion of their funds had been applied to purposes for which, by the Acts constituing those companies, the capital had never been intended. When he found in the direction of a railway like that he had specified, the names of such men as Mr. Hope Johnstone and his right hon. Friend the Secretary at War, he could not for a moment doubt the personal integrity of the gentlemen concerned in managing that undertaking. It was not of the men, but of the system, of which he complained. It was the system that was in fault, and it was the system which required alteration. But if Parliament could be induced by the Government to substitute for the present,
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a system which, giving a delusive protection, fails in providing any real security for the shareholders, they would only make matters infinitely worse than they were at present. He would rather have the present suspicion left upon the minds of the shareholders, resting as it did upon reasonable grounds, and tending possibly to make them watchful, than have a false confidence infused into them, resting upon grounds wholly unsubstantial. This, too, would be discreditable to Parliament; for if the House enacted a system of ineffectual audit, they would lead all the persons interested in railway companies into a worse position than even that which they now occupied. This, he apprehended, would be the consequence of the Government Bill in its present form. Pounded as it was on audit confided exclusively to the railway interest, he feared that the present measure would not give an adequate security for the fidelity of the accounts. The fidelity of the accounts was an object of paramount importance, inasmuch as melancholy experience had proved the temptation to falsify them was amongst the highest that could be offered to any body of men brought together as the members of some railway companies too generally were. His expectations were not unreasonable. What was wanted was, to have the accounts rendered truly and sincerely. The check to be at all useful, should be sufficient and absolute, above all, it should be independent; to show how necessary it was that an amply-sufficient check should be granted, he would mention the case of a northern railway, the accounts of which were audited by a gentleman, a public accountant, wholly unconnected with the company, and whose report under all the circumstances should have been considered altogether unimpeachable. Yet how was it disposed of by the company? At the regular meeting of the shareholders, the chairman of the company, holding up the auditor's account in his hand, said to the meeting, "Here is the auditor's account, and I am ready to put a motion for its adoption to the meeting if you think fit; but I think it right to tell you, that if this report be read and adopted, your dividends will fall." That settled the question at once. The account was instantly rejected. The effect was as magical as the cry of "Open Sesame!" The dividend was considered the grand point which must not be touched. And for that reason he (Lord Monteagle) thought that too much reliance was placed by his

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noble Friend (Lord Granville) upon the shareholders, when he selected them as the exclusive persons to elect auditors. The fact was, that shareholders could not be depended upon like persona possessing property of a more fixed and permanent character. They had a greater interest in the present exchangeable value of their shares than in the future substantial value of the railway property itself. From facts well known to the greater number of the noble Lords then present, it was but too clear that railway companies were not always adequate to the task of performing the duties which they owed to themselves and the public, and therefore the Legislature and the Government ought to assist them in doing that which they evidently were unable to do for themselves. His noble Friend (Earl Granville) had said that his first impression had been that he ought to give the Government a little more authority in the affair than was accorded to them by the present Bill. In this he (Lord Monteagle) agreed. He thought that the Government had not authority enough conferred upon it under the Bill as printed. Some independent referable department ought to have, at least, the power of appointing one out of the three auditors, in order that the public might have the security of the vigilant supervision of one independent eye, and the consequent certainty that the truth would be disclosed. In the proposition of a Bill which had been laid before them by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley), though no attempt was made to meet this fundamental objection, there were many points which deserved much consideration: of these, certainly the abolition of the present system of using proxies was one of the most urgent. The uses that had been made of proxies constituted one of the most flagrant abuses of the whole system; it too frequently overthrew the legitimate power of the shareholders. He would just mention a case that had been stated in the Committee upstairs. There existed a combined interest in what might be called an English and Irish railway; the English branch was the South Wales Railway Company;. the Irish was the Waterford, Wexford, and Dublin Railway Company. In the hands of the South Wales Company it was stated that there were shares of the other association to the number of 11,000; but that they were held upon a distinct agreement that the South Wales Company were not to be obliged to pay
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any further calls upon those shares. He had often heard of sleeping partners, but he never before heard of a case in which men were to participate in the dividends without contributing to the capital. Still when there was occasion to vote, out came those 11,000 shares. They slept whilst there was anything to pay, but were called into most mischievous activity when there was occasion to vote. This alleged abuse was one that required a remedy. To return, however, to the subject of the audit—if they did wish for a really efficient audit. Parliament must, however unwilling the Government might be, insist on the appointment of one auditor in three by the Crown. Without something like that, every attempt to constitute an audit would prove a delusion. Under any auditors he would object to the clause which only proposed to give the new auditors the same powers as those possessed by the old. The old auditors had no power of taking cognisance of the scheme of account upon which the dividends were declared. It could not be denied that this document was one of the most important of which the new auditors ought to have the examination. Another set of accounts which now escaped audit were the legal and parliamentary expenses. An excellent suggestion had been made regarding them in the Bill proposed, in the Bill introduced by himself and passed in the last Session, to enforce taxation of costs, which provided that not more than 50 per cent of the amount of such bills of costs should be paid before the bills were taxed. The necessity of bringing the whole of those items under the control of the auditors, would appear when he reminded the House that it was calculated that the enormous sum of 10,000,000 l. had been expended in parliamentary and legal costs for railways within a very few years. These accounts most certainly required rigorous taxation as well as an audit, not merely to prevent more money being paid than was justly due, but in order to prevent the introduction of undue and indefensible expenses under those heads. Amongst the evidence laid before their Lordships last year, there was one case in which—something after the fashion of the Caledonian Railway—a sum of several hundred thousand pounds had been expended, contrary to law, in the purchase of the shares of other companies. He (Lord Monteagle) asked the witness from whom the information had been elicited, how the directors managed to place before the shareholders

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the accounts of these illegitimate expenditures of capital? And the reply was "Oh, we put it to the account of law and parliamentary expenses." And the reason the witness gave for the propriety of its being-placed to such an account was, that the company whose shares they bought might have opposed them in Parliament; and, therefore, it was but a logical way of jumping to the conclusion that in preventing parliamentary opposition, and consequent expenditure, the money so laid out was fairly to be considered as laid out in payment of parliamentary and law expenses. As to the expenses of the proposed audit, he thought they must exceed the 10,000 l. named in the Bill. But whatever the amount, he should like to know what the present expenses of the 180 railway companies were for auditing their accounts, in order that it might be set off against a portion of the proposed expenses; and if the present system of audit were, as they had heard it termed by excellent authority, no more than moonshine—he adopted the words of Mr. Swift, the solicitor to the North Western Company—it would be good economy to pay twice as much for an efficient system. He should like to see the two Bills (Earl Granville's and Lord Stanley's) sent together to be considered by a Committee upstairs. If that were done, he believed there would be a much better Bill returned to the House from that Committee than either of the Bills were in their present stage, or those would be made by the House. He believed also that the Bill so amended would be that which would be most likely to succeed in the House of Commons.
LORD STANLEYrose for the purpose of adding that there were two points in the Bill of which he had taken charge which he might as well mention. As the law stood, any director might continue in office, and direct the affairs of the company, and levy calls on the shareholders, notwithstanding that he had not paid up his own calls. By the proposed Bill, any director who was a defaulter in the payment of calls became ipso facto incapacitated from continuing in the direction. Again, if a director in any way misconducted himself, it was proposed that he might be removed by a resolution of a general meeting of the shareholders.
LORD COLCHESTERwished to know how far the auditors would have power to examine railway accounts? He referred particularly to those sums of money
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which were raised by Act of Parliament, for various purposes, by companies which had been some time formed. It had come to his knowledge that a large southern company, who had taken powers to raise 80,000 l for making a branch railway, spent it, not as their Bill authorised them, but in purchasing a railway fifty miles off. He was anxious, therefore, that the auditors should have power to inquire whether such sums of money as Parliament might authorise the various companies to raise, were spent in accordance with the intention of the Legislature, and for the object specified.
EARL GRANVILLEwas understood to observe that the 6th Clause was sufficient to enable the auditors to make the inquiry suggested by the noble Lord who had just spoken. He thought it very essential that the public should be made aware that the contracts must be kept. He thanked the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) for having stated the nature of the Bill he had introduced, and for the manner in which he had expressed his willingness to allow the second reading of the Bill before their Lordships, on the understanding that he (Earl Granville) would not press it through the House in any of its subsequent stages with unreasonable haste. Some of the objections of the noble Lord seemed to be founded on some little misconception. In the first place, as regarded the expenses of the audit, when Government fixed on the sum of 10,000 l, they did not moan to say that it would be fully sufficient, and was all that could be possibly required; they merely took it as the first sum to be paid up, and he had stated in a very distinct way that he believed the expenses might amount to 20,000 l As it appeared to him, there was a great difference in the principles of the measure proposed by Government, and that entrusted to the noble Lord opposite; one was a Bill for the audit of railway accounts within the company; the other was a Bill for the audit of railway accounts without the company. Those who would be delegated to inquire into the accounts under the plan suggested by Government, would be persons without any interest in the company's affairs, and not open to the objections which existed to the appointment of auditors by the shareholders. On the three members of the board would be concentrated the whole force of public opinion, and if they made the appointment of persons manifestly unfitted for their duties, they would be exposed to

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the weight of that opinion, and he obliged to retrace their steps. The delegates of the several companies would elect the three auditors, and the character and capacity of each of those officers would be examined more thoroughly by such a body, than they possibly could be if they were appointed by Government. If they were to be elected by 200 or 300 people, who felt that their numbers shielded them from all such responsibility, it was not likely that the same strict scrutiny would be made, or that the force of public opinion would have so much influence. As to the provision of the Bill to be introduced by the noble Lord, that the directors were not to have a vote in the election of delegates, he must say, he did not so much regard the power of the directors or the influence of their fifteen or twenty votes, as their indirect influence, which must necessarily be very considerable, with the great body of the company. Now, he thought that the directors would, by means of proxies and otherwise, still retain the whole of the indirect influence which they possessed, whilst they would be relieved from the responsibilities that would attend their open act. He assented to the principles of that Bill so far as they had been stated by the noble Lord. It would be found that auditors elected for one year would have a very strong idea that if they desired to have a chance of re-election, they should not make themselves too troublesome to the various companies. There was one great advantage in a permanent audit board, that they would derive increased facility for the despatch of business as they continued to sit, and that auditing the accounts of railways for one year would give them much useful knowledge towards the audit of the year after.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that they would not be eligible to be re-elected.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that that too would be a very objectionable rule, because it would do away with all the advantages of accumulated experience.
LORD STANLEYthought that the auditors to be appointed under the Bill would not get through the accounts of the different companies in sufficient time.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he thought that objection was sufficiently answered by the fact that six commissioners were found to be sufficient to get through the whole accounts of the country, so that he thought there would be no difficulty in the auditors to be appointed under the Bill getting through their particular accounts in suf-
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ficient time, sooner, in fact, than they were now.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, if his noble Friend intended this Bill to be referred to a Select Committee, and that the other Bill to be introduced to-morrow should be allowed to overtake it, so as to be referred to the same Committee, then he had no objection to its second reading. The necessity of an audit of railway accounts on which the public could implicitly rely, had been so clearly demonstrated by recent events that it was idle to dwell longer on it. But he objected both to the present Bill and to that shadowed out in the speech of the noble Lord (Lord Stanley), because neither of them went to secure a totally independent audit. He did not think there was much difference in principle between the two Bills, because both of them, though perhaps in an indirect and roundabout way, gave the appointment of the auditors to the company themselves. It was often the interest of both shareholders and directors that the true financial position of the company should be concealed from the public, and if the appointment of auditors was still dependent on the votes of the company, the public would not obtain a full insight into the money transactions of these great undertakings. Now, the principle which he was anxious to see carried out was one which would secure an audit totally independent of the companies; for he was satisfied that till that was done no trust could be placed in the returns made by those auditors. If the principle adopted in the Bill of his noble Friend were persevered in, he would come to the conclusion of his noble Friend opposite, that it would do more harm than good, because it would not secure a really sound audit, or a knowledge of the actual state of a company's affairs, and yet it would produce in the public mind a false confidence in the statements made by these companies, which would have a strong tendency to mislead. He was not anxious particularly for the good of the shareholders—he did not look to the interests of the directors—he looked to the interests of the public at large; he regarded these companies not in the light of ordinary companies who had obtained powers to carry out a scheme which was to be made profitable to themselves; he looked upon them as trustees who had undertaken to do certain acts for the benefit of the public, and that the public, as parties interested, had a right to see and know exactly how the

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whole transactions were conducted. At present it was impossible, not only for the public, but even for the shareholders, to have any knowledge of the financial state of these companies. There were some railway companies with which he was connected, and he had whole drawers full of their balance-sheets, which really looked very plausible; but all he knew was, that there were no dividends, and that the capital account had been expended. Mind, in each of these railway companies they had audits, and yet this was the result, and therefore he said that unless the audit was totally independent, it was worse than nothing at all. He concluded by asking his noble Friend if he would allow the other Bill to overtake the present one, so that both might be referred to the same Select Committee?
EARL GRANVILLEthought he had stated enough when he undertook not to hurry the Bill through the House, so as to give perfect time for their Lordships to judge of the provisions of the noble Lord's Bill. With regard to the proposition for referring the Bill to a Select Committee, he was quite sensible of the great advantages they would derive from the services of noble Lords and Gentlemen acquainted with railway affairs in such a Committee, but should like to have time to consider it. The Bill of last year had been lost, owing to the delay which had occurred before a Select Committee, and a similar delay, arising out of the number of witnesses to be examined, and other causes, might hazard the passing of this Bill also. On the whole, he was of opinion it would be advisable to send the Bill to a Committee, but wished for a day before he decided.
Resolved in the Affirmative.
Bill read 2a
House adjourned till To-morrow.