Sitting of 8 February 1850

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—1° Larceny Summary Jurisdiction; Registrar's Office, Bankruptcy; Estates Leasing (Ireland) Party Processions (Ireland); Charitable Trusts.
3° County Cess (Ireland).

COLONIAL POLICY.
LORD J. RUSSELL*said: I believe there are few Members of the House who do not consider it expedient that, at this early period of the Session, a declaration should be made by the Government of the general policy it means to pursue with regard to our colonial affairs. So many statements have been made on the subject, such a variety of views, of interests, so many various facts have been put forward, that it is, beyond doubt, desirable and necessary that Her Majesty's Ministers should not delay to declare what are the opinions they entertain as to the great colonial affairs committed for the time to their charge, and as to what should be the permanent colonial policy of this country. In undertaking this task, I am appalled by its magnitude;
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I feel that I am not able adequately to discharge it; but I consider it most desirable, if for no other purpose than to enable this House, in the course of the various discussions it may hold upon subjects connected with the colonies, to form some clear judgment as to the general principles which should guide it in its deliberations. It is important that you should know on what it is you will have to deliberate: if your public spirit should induce you to preserve your colonies, or if your wisdom should induce you to amend your policy; or, finally, if an unhappy judgment should induce you to abandon your colonies, it is essential to know what it is you would preserve, or amend, or abandon. It is a great consolation for me to reflect that there are several Members of the House who have applied themselves to colonial questions, and who have shown great ability and knowledge in that pursuit. I may mention among others, the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark, and the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, who have, in speeches addressed to this House, and in printed pamphlets, displayed very considerable talent, and much study of this most important subject.
In considering this question, I will first state generally how our present colonial empire stands; and as the facts in detail must be familiar to most Members of the House, I will content myself with the merest outline of those facts. Putting aside the foundations of those American colonies which afterwards separated from us, and dealing only with our present colonies, I will state that our first settlements in the West Indies date from the conclusion of the reign of James I., and the beginning of the reign of Charles I., that is to say, before the beginning of the civil war. Islands which had been discovered and afterwards abandoned by the Spaniards, were at that period found by British navigators to produce the richest fruits of the earth, and to be almost without inhabitants, the former population having been exterminated by Spanish cruelty—proofs at once of the bounteous benevolence of Providence, and of the barbarous wickedness of man. During the Protectorate, Cromwell had to consider the pretensions, enforced with great vigour, of Spain, who insisted that not only none of her discoveries on the continent of America, and none of its islands, should be occupied by our colonists; but, further, that we should not carry on trade with any quarter of the

537
New World. It was not to be expected that Cromwell, with his high notions of British power and energy, would yield to such pretensions; and, accordingly, an expedition was fitted out by him, which, though it did not attain its immediate object, effected, as its ultimate result, the conquest of Jamaica. Afterwards, in the reign of Charles II., other West India islands were occupied and colonised. Such, then, was the beginning of our first colonial empire.
At the commencement of the next century, during the war, Gibraltar fell into our hands. After the glorious war of 1756, many more islands were added to our dominions, and we, besides, obtained possession of Canada, as to the acquisition of which, the Marquess de Montcalm, a sagacious statesman as well as an heroic soldier, declared that, although it would be a loss to France, it would lead to the separation of her American provinces from England, and thus compensate to Prance for her loss. In the unfortunate war with the united provinces of America, our losses were far greater than our gains. But, in the great revolutionary war which began in 1793, we made further additions, by the naval and military forces of the Crown, which were confirmed to us, as cessions, by the peace of 1814–1815.
I will now enumerate to the House the colonial acquisitions made by England in the periods respectively between 1600 and 1700, between 1700 and 1793, and between 1793 and 1815:—From 1600 to 1700—Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward's Island, Newfoundland, Bermuda, Jamaica, Honduras, Bahamas, Barbadoes, Antigua, Montserrat, St. Christopher's, Nevis, Virgin Islands, Gambia, St. Helena. From 1700 to 1793—Canada, St. Vincent, Grenada, Tobago, Dominica, Gibraltar, Sierra Leone, forts and settlements on Gold Coast, New South Wales. From 1793 to 1815—St. Lucia, British Guiana, Trinidad, Malta, Cape of Good Hope, Van Diemen's Land, Mauritius, Ceylon. I will not here state the colonies which have since been formed. There will be other occasions on which to refer to them in the course of the debate.
I will proceed to explain the general principles on which the colonies I have enumerated were formed. In the first place, the object seems to have been to send out settlers from this country, and to enable them to colonise these distant islands. But, in the next place, it was
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evidently the system of this country—as at that time it was the system of all the European countries—to maintain strict commercial monopoly in relation to its colonies. By various statutes, to which I need not further allude, several of which have been very recently under the consideration of the House, we took care that all the trade of the colonies should centre in this country; that all their productions should be sent here, and that no other nation should bring those products to this country, or carry them abroad. It was conceived that we derived great advantages from this monopoly; and Mr. Dundas, so late as 1796, speaking of the colonies, expressed the opinion, that unless the trade of our colonies was secured by us with monopoly, they would find a market for their goods elsewhere, which would be productive of great loss and detriment to the nation.
But there was another and a most remarkable characteristic attending these colonies, and this was, that wherever Englishmen have been sent, or have chosen to settle, they have carried with them the freedom and the institutions of the mother country. I will take the liberty of reading some extracts from a patent given to the Earl of Carlisle when he went out to be Governor, and I think proprietor, of Barbadoes, in 1627, that is to say, in the reign of Charles I.:—
"Further know ye, that we, for us, our heirs and successors, have authorised and appointed the said James Earl of Carlisle, and his heirs (of whose fidelity, prudence, justice, and wisdom we have great confidence) for the good and happy government of the said province, whether for the public security of the said province or the private utility of every man, to make, erect, and set forth, and under his or their signet to publish, such laws as he, the said Earl of Carlisle, or his heirs, with the consent, assent, and approbation of the free inhabitants of the said province, or the greater part of them, thereunto to be called, and in such form as he or they in his or their discretion shall think fit and best.
"We will also, of our princely grace, for us, our heirs, and successors, straightly charge, make, and ordain, that the said province be of our allegiance, and that all and every subject and liege people of us, our heirs, and successors, brought or to be brought, and their children, whether there born, or afterwards to be born, become natives and subjects of us, our heirs, and successors, and be as free as they that were born in England; and so their inheritance within our kingdom of England, or other our dominions, to seek, receive, take, hold, buy, and possess, and use and enjoy them as his own, and to give, sell, alter, and bequeath them at their pleasure; and also freely, quietly, and peaceably, to have and possess all the liberties, franchises, and privileges of this

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kingdom, and them to use and enjoy as liege people of England, whether born, or to be born, without impediment, molestation, vexation, injury, or trouble of us, our heirs, and successors, &c."
Such were the terms on which the King, whose haughty assertion of his prerogative afterwards brought about the civil war, set forth the rights and liberties of those of his English subjects who chose to reside in the colony of Barbadoes.
The government of Jamaica, settled by Cromwell, was at first a purely military government, but in the reign of Charles II. it was made likewise a constitutional government, having an assembly, and the right to levy taxes, and to administer its affairs according to the form and on the model of the English constitution. It so happened that this policy became, not long after, matter of question in the King's Council. In the early part of the reign of James II. a question was raised in relation to the colony of Barbadoes, and, in fact, affecting all the British colonies. Mr. Fox, copying Barillon, in relation to that subject, writes:—
"Among the various objections to that nobleman's (Marquess of Halifax) political principles, we find the charge most relied upon for the purpose of injuring him in the mind of the king was founded on the opinion he had delivered in council, in favour of modelling the charters of the British Colonies in North America upon the principles of the rights and privileges of Englishmen. There was no room to doubt (he was accused of saying) that the same laws under which we live in England should be established in a country composed of Englishmen. He even dilated upon this, and omitted none of the reasons by which it can be proved, that an absolute government is neither so happy nor so safe as that which is tempered by laws, and which limits the authority of the prince. He exaggerated, it was said, the mischiefs of a sovereign power, and declared plainly that he could not make up his mind to live under a king who should have it in his power to take, when he pleased, the money he might have in his pocket."
I consider it to be very remarkable when we find the nobleman who had advised Charles II. to dispense with his Parliament, whose knowledge and ability had been most useful to that monarch, so thoroughly imbued with the principle that Englishmen everywhere else, ought to live free as Englishmen at home; that in the King's Council when the question was submitted to him whether the population of an English colony were to be adjudged to live under the arbitrary rule of the Sovereign, or under free institutions, he declared forcibly and unhesitatingly in favour of freedom.
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That this opinion was in conformity with the general constitution of these colonies, that it was in conformity with the general principles of English law, is, I think, proved by the opinion of Sir Philip Yorke, and another law-officer of the Crown, which was quoted by Lord Mansfield in the well-known case of the Jamaica proclamation. The Assembly of Jamaica, having entered upon a dispute in relation to the 4½ per cent duties, it was referred to Sir P. Yorke to know "what could be done if the Assembly should obstinately continue to withhold all the usual supplies?" They reported, that if Jamaica was still to be considered as a conquered island, the King had a right to levy taxes upon the inhabitants; but if it was to be considered in the same light as the other colonies, no tax could be imposed upon the inhabitants but by an Assembly of the island, or by an Act of Parliament. I think that opinion is quite sufficient with respect to the general law on the subject.
In the case of the island of Grenada, that island having been ceded to us by the peace of Paris of 1763, the King issued a proclamation, by which he gave a council and an assembly to the island, with power and direction to the governor, with the advice and consent of the council and the representatives of the people, to make, constitute, and ordain laws, statutes, and ordinances for the good government thereof, and to levy such taxes as to the same might seem fit. It afterwards became a question whether the King had a right to tax the people of the island to a certain amount to be paid to the Crown, and Lord Mansfield then declared, that whatever might have been the power of the Crown at the time of the acquisition, the proclamation which granted to the colonists the rights and privileges exercised under the British constitution, placed it out of the power of the Crown afterwards to make any arbitrary assessment.
What has been the policy since that period? For various reasons, some of which I can imagine, but which I will not now state, from the peace of 1763 to the peace which followed in 1814–1815, though there were some acquisitions which appeared at that time to be in a similar position with the islands to which I have referred, it does not seem to have been thought desirable to imitate the policy which had been formerly pursued, and therefore, in these acquisitions, whether under capitulation, or

541
by an Order in Council, the old Spanish or Dutch institutions, or whatever they might be, were, for the most part, retained, and the government of the various acquisitions was not formed on the model of the English constitution.
With reference to commercial relations and administration, there have lately been very great changes adopted deliberately by the Government of this country, or rather have been going on for many years past. In 1786 Mr. Pitt seems to have had for a time the belief that the relations between our West India colonies and the North American States, now become the United States of America, could be carried on much as they had been when the latter were under the dominion of Great Britain; but this policy was not carried into effect; on the contrary, there was an attempt to establish the seats of a strict monopoly at New Brunswick and Nova Scotia, with a view to the supply of the West India Islands, which created a long contest with the United States. At length, measures of a far more liberal character were introduced and carried into effect by Mr. Huskisson, with reference to the commerce of our West India colonies.
Lately we have gone very much further in this direction. By the repeal last year of the navigation laws, I conceive we have entirely put an end to the whole system of commercial monopoly in our colonies. We have plainly declared that, on the one hand, if we require productions similar to those which our colonies produce, we shall be ready to take them from other parts of the world; and on the other hand, we have left the colonists free to provide themselves with the products of other countries than our own, and to impose upon the manufactures of Great Britain equal duties with those imposed on foreign manufactures. It is not my purpose to go into the question whether this new policy is a right or a wrong policy. This, however, is evident, that while on the one hand it has produced much surprise, and in particular cases discontent, in some of our colonial possessions, on the other hand it has led at home to questions as to how the colonies are to be in future managed, and to a question, in some quarters, whether it is desirable to retain our colonial empire at all. I state this latter proposition broadly, though there are various modifications of it in various minds.
Before we enter upon that point it is expedient to examine what has been the increase
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in several of these colonies, both in population and in wealth under our dominion. I will first take the increase of population, within a very short period, since the peace of 1815, in British North America. The population of British North America in 1816 was 462,250; in 1835, 1,099,904; in 1847, 1,866,891. This account comprises Upper and Lower Canada,; Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, and I am satisfied that at the present moment the population of those regions is not less than 2,000,000.
The population in Lower Canada was, in
1784, 113,000.
1825, 423,630, being an increase in 41 years of 310,630.
1831, 511,922, increase in 6 years, 88,292, or 20 per cent.
1844, 690,782, increase in 13 years, 178,860, or 35 per cent.
1848, 770,000, increase in 4 years, 79,218, or 11 per cent.
The population of Upper Canada was, in
1811, 77,000.
1825, 158,027, increase of 14 years, 81,027, or 105 per cent.
1831, 234,681, increase of 6 years, 77,654, or 48 per cent.
1842, 486,055, increase of 11 years, 251,374, or 107 per cent.
1848, 723,292, increase of 6 years, 237,237, or 48 per cent.
The population of Upper and Lower Canada was in
1825, 581,657.
1831, 746,603, increase in 6 years, 164,946, or 28 per cent.
1842–4, 1,176,837, increase in 13 years, 430,234, or 57 per cent.
1848, 1,493,292, increase in 4 years, 316,455, or 27 per cent.
This is the increase in Upper and Lower Canada, and its character may be more adequately appreciated by a comparison with the increase in the population of the United States, which I will give you at the decennial periods in which the regular census there is taken.
The population of the United States was, in

1790,

3,929,827,

1800,

5,305,925,

decennial increase,

35·01

1810,

7,239,814,

"

36·45

1820,

9,654,596,

"

33·35

1830,

12,866,020,

"

33·26

1840,

17,069,453,

"

32·67

As to the imports and exports of Canada, New Brunswick, and Nova Scotia, in the last few years, the results are not less remarkable:—

The imports in 1835 amounted to

£2,730,082

The imports in 1846 amounted to

4,052,378

The exports in 1845 amounted to

£1,929,605

The exports in 1846 amounted to

3,201,992

Tons.

The shipping entered inwards in 1835

1,077,992

The shipping entered inwards in 1847

1,461,295

That entered outwards in 1835

1,025,527

That entered outwards in 1847

1,494,634

This, at all events, shows a most remarkable increase both in population and in wealth; and if we go to another test of wealth—the assessment for local taxation in Upper Canada—the result is no less remarkable. This has been the annual amount and value of all articles assessed for local taxation in Upper Canada, under the several assessment laws of that portion of the province:—

£

£

In 1825, 2,256,874.

1830, 2,929,269 increase in 5 years,

672,395

1835, 3,880,994 increase in 5 years

951,725

1840, 5,607,426 increase in 5 years

1,726,432

1845, 7,778,917 increase in 5 years

2,171,491

1847, 8,567,001 increase in 2 years,

788,084

With respect to another portion of our colonies, in which there is an increase of population of British descent, the facts are scarcely less remarkable. I look now more especially to our Australian colonies. In 1828 they were but two—New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land. Their population was 53,000, and their exports, 180,000 l. In 1848 the Australian colonies were six, their population had increased to 350,000, and their exports to no less than 2,880,000 l. This will seem still more remarkable when I state that at the time of the separation from this country of our North American provinces, the whole exports of those provinces did not exceed in value 1,000,000 l. sterling. In 1836 Port Phillip scarcely existed; in 1846 it possessed 2,000 houses, with a population of 10,000, assessed at 50,000 l., and the whole population of the district was 30,000. Again, South Australia, which at first, owing to some error, got into great pecuniary difficulties, has since made such extraordinary progress that in the course of ten years its population increased to 25,000, and the exports rose in value to 300,000 l. I state these facts to show that with reference to a large class of colonies under the dominion of this Crown, there has been a marked increase in population and in wealth—to show the value of those relations on which so much discussion has taken place, the course of which has developed, I must think, in some persons a very superficial knowledge of the subjects.
I will now proceed to colonies which
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have undergone two very severe trials, the very consequence of the great advantages which they peculiarly derived from those laws of commercial monopoly which this country till lately maintained as part of its system, and the alteration of which subjected these colonies—I refer, of course, to our West India colonies—to changes which, in the view of some parties, involved their certain ruin. The great social change there from slavery to freedom, however much it might be demanded by the rules of justice and the precepts of Christianity, might well be supposed to lead to a diminution of industry in those colonies, and more especially of the more irksome and painful descriptions of labour. Again, the changes which took place in late years—first admitting foreign free-labour sugar, and then admitting foreign slave-labour sugar—exposed these colonies to a very severe trial. Yet if the House will attend to a few figures, exhibiting the imports of sugar, first, from our West India colonies, and then generally from the British possessions abroad, they will have much reason to see that the West India colonies have undergone the trial with far more success than might have been expected.
When I speak of the British possessions, of course it is to be borne in mind, that, had the monopoly been maintained, the West Indies would have had to compete with the Mauritius and the East Indies. Taking these three years, 1815, 1816, 1817, before any of these changes took place, I find that the West Indies furnished for cousumption in this country an average of 2,947,824 cwt. of sugar: in the three years, 1830, 1831, 1832, before emancipation took place, an average of 3,895,820 cwt. In the three years, 1843, 1844, 1845, before the great change of the sugar duties, 2,645,212 cwt. of sugar: and in the three years, 1847, 1848, 1849, after both had been in operation, 2,807,667 cwt. If you compare the first amount I read to the House with the last, you will see the change has been from 2,947,824 cwt. to 2,807,667 cwt.—a much less diminution of the quantity of sugar consumed in this country from the West Indies than, I think, any one expected previously to the great changes which have been made. But if we take the whole amount received from the British possessions, the account stands thus:—The average quantity of sugar imported in the three years from 1815 was 2,982,608 cwt.; in the three years from 1830, 4,004,185 cwt.; in the

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three years from 1843, 4,327,054 cwt.; and in the last three years, 1847, 1848, and 1849, no less than 5,058,755 cwt.; being an increase of more than 2,000,000 cwt. over the quantity of sugar from the British possessions consumed in this country in 1816. Now, considering the severe trials the colonies have had to undergo, I do say that this is a most satisfactory account of the state of the British possessions, so far as the production of a very valuable article is concerned.
Having shown the increase which has taken place in this branch of commerce with our colonies since 1815, I come now to a question which has been much agitated, and which has found supporters of very considerable ability—namely, that we should no longer think it worth our while to maintain oar colonial empire. I say, in the first place, with regard to this proposal, that I consider it to be our bounden duty to maintain the colonies which have been placed under our own charge. I think we cannot get rid of the obligation and responsibility to govern those colonies for then benefit, and I trust we may be the instruments of improving and civilising those portions of the world in which they are situated. In the next place, I say that there are many reasons why we should consider that our colonies form part of the strength of the empire. I think that, in peace as well as in war, it is a question of the utmost importance whether we should retain these supports of the imperial authority of this country, or whether we should be deprived of them.
I would observe, further, that there are in some of these colonies native races which we have been able, in a certain degree, to civilise, and which we have brought in order and subjection to authority. There is now in one of our recent colonies a most remarkable race, I mean the population of New Zealand, which not many years ago was given up to practices the most abhorrent to humanity, but which, from intercourse and communication with our countrymen, appears to be far more capable of civilisation than almost any of the savage races with which we have come in contact. There is also another race, the natives of the district of Natal, in Africa, which shows every sign of docility and fitness for learning the arts of civilised life. There are other people, also, who, if they were abandoned by us, would undoubtedly relapse into their savage habits, and who would probably commence a war of races with the
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few Europeans who would be left in command of them; and we should thus give up parts of the world which have been reclaimed from barbarism to most cruel and desolating warfare.
But there are other matters relating to the imperial authority, and to the security of this country, which cannot be lost sight of in considering the value of our colonies. Every one will admit the value of that commerce which penetrates to every part of the globe; and many of those colonies give harbours and security to that trade, which are most useful in time of peace, but are absolutely necessary in time of war. I think that the persons who talk about giving up the colonies, without much investigating the subject, do not consider what would be the probable result with respect to a great number of those colonies. It is easy to say, that because the United States have formed a prosperous, and civilised, and free community, and that because they are not only great customers for our goods, but also receive our emigrants, other colonies might take the same course with equal advantage. But many of our colonies would be wholly unable to do so, not having the means of preserving anything like independence or security amidst the savage races by which they are surrounded. What, then, would they do? If they were abandoned by Great Britain, they would most naturally and justly apply to some other country for protection. The Cape of Good Hope would apply to Holland; the Mauritius to France; other colonies would apply to other States, and they would say, "We have been abandoned by those to whom we were bound by allegiance; protection is now taken from us, and we ask you to become our protectors, and to receive our allegiance." Who can doubt that other countries would readily afford the protection so asked, and that they would become strong on what would be our weakness?
Sir, if this scheme is not consistent either with our honour or with our policy, there are others which have been proposed which I think equally objectionable. One is, that we should altogether abandon any share in the government of our colonies, and that we should likewise refuse them any means of defence. I think, Sir, that such a system would very soon lead to the same result as the proposal I have just noticed. These colonies would say, "If we are not to be defended—if we are to receive no support from Great Britain—let us look for other protectors; let us ask

547
other States if they will assist us with their arms, und protect us against any attacks which may be made upon us."
Another scheme which has been proposed is, that a certain description of laws adopted by the colonial legislatures should require the assent of the imperial authority, but that, with regard generally to the acts of the colonial legislatures, no such sanction should be requisite; and that a line should be drawn between those laws which require the assent of the Crown, and those which should be enforced without such assent. Now, Sir, I do not believe that it is possible to draw any such distinction. I think we had a strong proof of this in the debates which took place last year with respect to a measure which was passed by the House of Assembly, by the Legislative Council, and by the Governor of Canada. It was asserted in this House that that was a measure which ought not to receive the assent of the Crown, and that Her Majesty ought to reject it, although it had been affirmed by all the Canadian authorities. The Government, on the other hand, maintained that it was a matter of local government, and that the will of the colony, expressed deliberately by the legislature, ought to be affirmed. I do not wish to revive that contest. I may say, however, that my opinion is very strong that it was a matter for the local authorities to decide; but I mention this as an instance of the difficulty there would be in drawing a precise line, and to show that any attempt to draw such a line would be most likely to raise disputes as to whether a particular law came within, or stood without, that line. I believe that any man acquainted with the administration of the colonies, will come to the conclusion that it is only in rare cases that the authority of the Crown ought to be interposed; and that, with respect to local affairs, the executive and legislative authorities of the colony are the best judges.
Upon this subject, however, I may say that there was an interference during many years, which, whether necessary or not, provoked a great deal of irritation in a large number of the colonies, but which is now entirely removed. I allude to the interference of the Imperial Government in certain of our colonies, first, with respect to slaves; next, with regard to apprentices; and, lastly, with respect to the black population when they were first permitted to enjoy the blessings of freedom. It was thought by the Executive Government,
548
and their proposal was agreed to by this House, that certain rules should be laid down for the management of slaves, and especially that certain modes of discipline and punishment, which the West Indian planters deemed necessary for the management of those slaves, but which the people of England considered cruel and barbarous, should not be permitted. Afterwards, when the slaves became apprentices, the laws passed by the Imperial Parliament, were strictly carried out; and there was a constant jealousy on the part of the people of this country, which naturally reached those who had the conduct of colonial affairs, lest by means of certain laws to prevent depredations, and to establish a rural police, those who had been recently emancipated by a great sacrifice on the part of the English people should again be brought into a state of slavery. It so happened that when I was at the Colonial Office these measures of jealousy and restriction on the part of the Government of this country were still going on; and Lord Metcalfe, who, in every part of the world in which he served his country showed his good sense and capacity, wrote to me, and said in substance, "You need no longer be in any fear with respect to the labourers of Jamaica, because, so far from its being a case of labourers looking for employment, the fact is that the employers are endeavouring at very great pains and expense to entice the labourers to work." These measures of precaution, and these symptoms of jealousy, soon afterwards ceased; and although interference continued for a considerable time, I believe that there exists no longer any dissension on this head between the Government at home and the colonial legislatures.
Returning again to consider this subject, I think it is absolutely necessary that the Government and the House should determine and declare what are the principles upon which they will hereafter proceed. If, as I firmly believe, it is our duty to maintain our great and valuable colonial empire, let us see that those principles are sound which we adopt in our colonial administration; let us see that they are likely to conduce to the credit of this country, and to contribute to the happiness and prosperity of our colonies.
With regard to our commercial policy, I have already said that the whole system of monopoly is swept away. What we have in future to provide for is, that there

549
shall be no duties of monopoly in favour of one nation, and against another, and that there shall be no duties so high as to be prohibitory against the produce and manufactures of this country. I think we have a right to ask this in return for the protection which we afford to the colonies.
I now come to the question, as to the mode of governing our colonies. I think that, as a general rule, we cannot do better than refer to those maxims of policy by which our ancestors were guided upon this subject. It appears to me, that in providing that wherever Englishmen went, they should enjoy English freedom, and have English institutions, they acted justly and wisely. They adopted a course which was calculated to promote a harmonious feeling between the mother country and the colonies, and which enabled those who went out to these distant possessions to sow the seeds of communities of which England may always be proud.
Well, Sir, let us see how we stand on this subject. I have here a declaration with regard to our colonial policy, signed by a number of Gentlemen, comprising, I think some twelve or fourteen Members of this House, and some three or four Peers, Members of the other House of Parliament. I think the course taken by these Gentlemen, of forming themselves into an association, and corresponding with the colonies, is a measure of very dubious policy. I conceive that, in their character of Members of the House of Commons, or of the House of Lords, they might fairly declare what were their views and opinions, and that they might call upon the Government either to agree to, or to show reasons for dissenting from, the policy they recommended. If they had done that, I certainly should have made no complaint of their proceedings, nor do I now wish to enter further into that subject. I observe that with regard to general principles, having expressed sentiments not very different from those I have just stated, they proceed to say—
"The council are therefore of opinion, that it is right and expedient to delegate to all the British colonies, whose population has been mainly formed, or is being still augmented by emigration from this country, full authority to administer their own affairs. That the colonies which are at present entitled to self-government, are the North American colonies, the South African colonies, the Australian colonies, Van Diemen's Land, and New Zealand. To these colonies the council have determined to limit their operations in the first instance."
Now, I will take these colonies in the order in which the association has mentioned them, and I will state what has been and is the policy of the present Government with regard to them. Of the North American colonies I will take, in the first place, Canada.
Up to 1828 there were very grave dissensions between the Ministers of the Crown in this country and the Canadian people. The Government of this country thought themselves justified in applying the taxes of Canada without the authority or consent of the inhabitants of the colony. Mr. Huskisson proposed an inquiry into that subject. Parliament, for a long time, turned its attention to the matter. Commissions were sent out; Committees were appointed; but, in the end, an insurrection broke out in Canada, and blood was shed both in the Upper and Lower Provinces. The Government of which I was a Member thought it necessary, for a time, to suspend the constitution of the colony. We afterwards proposed the union of the two provinces, and also to give the colony ample powers of legislation. In establishing that kind of government in so important a province, a question arose which, I trust, has been solved to the satisfaction of the people of Canada, although it is one which could not be solved in the same manner in a province of less importance, and of less extensive population. The popular party in Canada, proposed that they should have what they called responsible government—that is to say, that not only should there be a legislature freely elected, but that instead of what had become the custom, that the Ministry should be named by the Governor General totally irrespective of the prevailing opinions of the Legislature, they should be taken from that party in the Assembly which was supported by a majority. That plan was adopted. During the time that Lord Glenelg held the Colonial Secretaryship, Mr. Baldwin, who I believe is now in office in Canada, came to this country. Lord Glenelg informed me that, for particular reasons, he could not see Mr. Baldin, but he wished me to see him, and to hear his statement. I met Mr. Baldwin. My opinion when I met him was, that I should very widely disagree with him, and his opinion probably was that he would very widely differ from me; but, after a long conversation, and mutual explanations, we came to a result which was one of nearly entire agreement with respect to the government of Canada. That government

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has been conducted of late years in conformity with what Her Majesty's Ministers believe to be the opinion of the people of Canada. When Lord Elgin saw that the Ministry he had found in office had narrow majorities in the Assembly, he proposed either that they should continue in office until they were obstructed by adverse votes, or that they should dissolve the Assembly. They preferred to dissolve the Assembly. The new Assembly which was returned gave a great majority to their adversaries, and Lord Elgin placed their adversaries in office. I do not think that it would be possible to carry out more fairly, or more fully, the principle of allowing the province to manage its own affairs.
I have, however, seen bitter complaints on this subject; and I have seen that some persons have even gone the length of proposing that, instead of remaining subject to Her Majesty, the province of Canada should be annexed to the United States. To that proposal, of course, the Crown could give nothing but a decided negative; and I trust, although such a suggestion has been made, that, from the characters of several of the gentlemen who are members of the Association, it is not their intention to push their project of joining a neighbouring State to the ultimate result of endeavouring by force of arms to effect a separation from Great Britain; but that, knowing the determined will of the Sovereign of this country, and of Her advisers, not to permit that project to be carried into effect, they will acquiesce in the decision of the Crown. I wonder, at the same time, that any persons who profess loyalty to the Sovereign should have entertained a project which, if unfortunately any international difference occurred between this country and the United States of America, might have placed them in a position of raising their arms against British authority, and of fighting against the British flag. Such, then, is the condition of Canada. If the present Ministry in Canada are sustained by popular opinion—and I believe the late elections that have taken place in the recess in Canada rather show that they will be—if they are sustained by public opinion, and by the Assembly, they will remain in office; if, on the contrary, the opinion of the province shall be adverse to them, the Governor General will take other advisers, and he will act strictly according to the rule that has been adopted here.
With respect, likewise, to Nova Scotia
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and New Brunswick, no very long time ago the Executive Council was the same body as the Legislative Council, and there was no separate Legislative Council; but—I think it was when Lord Glenelg held the seals of office—a change was made, and the councillors have been chosen, if not from a particular party, in such a manner as to conciliate the opinion of the province, and to command the support of a majority of the Legislature in Nova Scotia and for New Brunswick. We have not heard of late years of those unhappy dissensions which used to prevail when the Executive Councillors of the Government found themselves in a small minority in the Assembly. With respect then to Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, the principle which this Association wishes to have carried into execution has been carried into execution; and I should say that the consequence has been, and must be, that there have been far fewer questions brought before the Secretary of State than there used to be. In regard to many questions of official conduct or misconduct, with regard to many local affairs in which it could be nothing but a difficulty and embarrassment for the Colonial Secretary to be called upon to decide, he is not obliged to say a word; they are settled in the province; the Governor informing him of the facts, if he thinks they are of importance. The government is carried on therefore with less resort to this country than used to be the case.
I will now advert to the South African colonies. The chief of these is the Cape of Good Hope. With respect to the Cape of Good Hope, there has been, of late years, a discussion with regard to the introduction of representative government. Lord Stanley had that question under his consideration; and without at all refusing the introduction of representative government, he pointed out many difficulties which had to be considered before the decision was ultimately come to. Those difficulties, and indeed every topic connected with the subject, have been discussed in the Cape by the Governor and his advisers, by the Colonial Secretary, the Chief Justice, and others, who are fully competent to form an opinion from their general knowledge of the principles of the Government, and likewise from their local knowledge of the interests of the colony; and the result is, that Her Majesty's Government have come to the decision that representative institutions shall be introduced

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at the Cape. With respect to the representative assembly, they have adopted a franchise, into the particulars of which I shall not now enter, for the papers are in the hands of Members, enabling them to judge of the proposal; a representative assembly will be chosen by persons having a certain amount of property, and qualified in the manner which has been specified. But a question arose as to the formation of what is called in other colonies the legislative council; and, upon the whole, Her Majesty's Government came to the opinion, that, instead of imitating the constitution of Jamaica, or that of Canada, it Would be advisable to introduce into the Cape of Good Hope a council which should be elective, but elected by persons having a considerably higher qualification than that of the electors of the representative assembly. These, it was considered, might be persons who had been named by the Crown as persons of weight and influence, as magistrates and others, or persons who had been selected by municipal councils as persons entitled to the highest offices which they could confer. It is proposed that the representative assembly should have a duration of five years, and the legislative council a duration of ten years, but half to resign their seats at the expiration of five years. Something like a constitution of this kind, though differing in some very remarkable particulars, is now in operation in Belgium, where, instead of having a hereditary council, there is an elective council, which, I think, has a duration of eight years, half being elected at the expiration of every four years. Of course this experiment is new, and it would be presumptuous to say that it will entirely Succeed; but the Order in Council having been passed for the purpose of its introduction, that Order, and the instructions founded thereupon, will be sent out to the Cape; and any amendments with regard; to the details Which have been settled here may be considered at the Cape before the measure obtains a final sanction.
Sir, the next colonies to which these gentlemen refer, are the Australian colonies, Van Diemen's Land, and New Zealand.
Now, with regard to Australia, the Bill which I have to ask that the Chairman should obtain leave to bring in, will propose legislation by Parliament upon that subject. The measure which I propose, and which is nearly the same as one that Was proposed last year, goes not on the
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principle of having a council and assembly, as hitherto, in imitation of the Government of this country, has been usually the form most palatable and popular in our colonies; but it is proposed that there should be but one council, a council of which two-thirds shall be formed of representatives elected by the people, and one-third named by the Governor. The reason for adopting this proposal is, that after a great deal of deliberation, that plan was adopted some years ago, and, I think, was finally enacted by Parliament in 1842. Since that time, the scheme has been found so far acceptable to the people of New South Wales, that upon the whole, so far as we could ascertain their sentiments, they appear to prefer that form of popular government to I that which is more in analogy with the Government of this country. ["Hear, hear!" and "No!"] Well, for my part, I can only say that we have been anxious to adopt that form which was the most agreeable to the views of the colony, and that, if in New South Wales there had been a clear and prevalent opinion that it was advisable to leave their present constitution, and to adopt the form of council and assembly, the Government would have been quite ready to take that course, and that the Committee of the Council, to which this question was referred, would have proposed that constitution.
I should say, speaking upon that subject, with regard to these questions of colonial government, that upon all the great principles of government, and which are to decide with respect to the welfare of the colony for a considerable time to come, as well as with regard to questions in which there is any peculiar difficulty, my noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies considered it advisable to refer these questions to a Committee of Privy Council, on which my Lord Campbell, Sir Edward Ryan, and my right hon. Friend near me, the President of the Board of Trade, have constantly sat, and given their mature attention to the subject. I believe that that is a very advisable plan, and that it enables the Secretary of State to discuss with others the various reasons for the propositions that may be made, and ultimately to come to a better decision than if he had to decide alone upon questions of this order. But, when we propose that this shall be the form of government for New South Wales, I should add that we propose likewise to give the colony the power of altering their own constitution in that respect, and that

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if it should be their opinion that they had better resort to a government by legislative council and assembly, there would be no objection on the part of the Crown to the adoption of that course.
With respect to other matters, there is a change, though not a very considerable change, in the Bill as it was first proposed last year; for we then proposed that the customs' duties which now prevail in New South Wales should be enacted by Parliament for the whole of the Australian colonies, and should be binding till they were altered by the proper authorities. We have thought that although it is a most desirable object that the customs' duties should not vary in the different Australian colonies, it is not advisable to enact that uniformity by authority of Parliament, but that it is better to leave them to settle for themselves whether they will not adopt a similar tariff for all the various parts of Australia.
We propose that the Port Phillip district shall be separated from New South Wales, and that it should likewise have its council; and that there should likewise be introduced in Van Diemen's Land, where it has not existed before, a popular element into the Legislative Council, forming that council upon the same principle as the others, and that in South Australia there should be a similar body.
We propose, likewise, that on the proposition of two of these colonies there should be an assembly of these different Australian councils, that they should have the power of framing the same tariff for all, and that they should have various other powers which we think might be found useful, to pervade the whole of these colonies. To that body, likewise, we propose to refer the power of dealing with that question, which is so important to our Australian colonies—the price of the waste lands. After many arrangements upon that subject, Parliament enacted, in 1842, that 20 s. an acre should be the price fixed for waste lands in New South Wales and the Australian colonies, and that that price should not be capable of alteration. It appears to us that it would be a great mischief that that price should be altered in one of those colonies, and remain the same in the others; that there should be a bidding by one colony against another for the purpose of procuring immigrants, very much depreciating the value of waste lands, and we therefore propose that if an alteration should be made, it should be an
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alteration that should extend to the whole.
I do not know that I need enter further into the description of this Bill, because the Bill itself was in the hands of Members at the end of last Session; as I have said, there are no great alterations from what was then proposed, and in a few days I trust Members will again have the Bill in their hands, and they can canvass its contents. But I have stated enough to show that both in the North American colonies and in the Australian it is our disposition to introduce representative institutions, give full scope to the will of the people of those colonies, and thereby enable them to work their way to their own prosperity far better than if they were controlled and regulated by any ordinances that went from this country.
With respect to New Zealand, we began very soon, in 1846, showing at least a disposition for representative institutions; showing, perhaps, too much haste in the manner in which we adopted them; but we began by enacting a Bill for the purpose of introducing representative institutions in New Zealand. The very able Governor of that colony pointed out the difference which exists between the native race of New Zealand and any of those native races with which the British people had hitherto had to deal, whether in North America, whether at the Cape of Good Hope, or whether in New Holland and Van Diemen's Land. He pointed out their capacity for civilisation; he pointed out how ill they would brook the interference and government of a small number of persons of the English race, who should have the sole legislative authority over them. His objections, when they reached this country, were felt by my noble Friend and by the Government to be founded in reason—founded in his knowledge of the people among whom he dwelt, and whom he was commissioned to govern; and we therefore proposed to suspend that constitution. The Governor now writes that he has introduced a Legislative Council in the southern part of New Zealand; he writes also that it is his opinion that at the expiration of the term fixed by Parliament, representative institutions can safely and usefully be introduced into New Zealand. Therefore, believing his opinion to be well founded, we propose only to wait for any further representations from him as to any alterations that should be made in the Act which passed with respect to New Zealand; and with regard to time, to

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introduce those alterations, that the constitution may be put into operation at the time which has been already fixed by Parliament.
I believe I have now gone through all the colonies for which the gentlemen of this Association, who are called "The Council," think it necessary to claim free institutions. They say—
"They abstain for the present from offering any opinion as to the government of those dependencies in which the mass of the population is composed of the coloured races, such as the West India Islands, Mauritius, and Ceylon; and they consider that military stations, such as Malta, Gibraltar, &c, ought not to be considered colonies, and need not necessarily be governed as such."
Now, I must say, whatever may be the justice of the opinions contained in the former part of their representations, that they show great moderation in the views they thus express. I will, however, state, with regard to some of the West India Islands, and some other colonies, what has been done, and is proposed to be done.
With regard to those colonies which I mentioned in the commencement of what I addressed to the House—Barbadoes, and Jamaica, and the older West Indian colonies—they have for a long time enjoyed a government by Council and Assembly; and although such institutions led from time to time to differences between the Governor and the Assembly, I do not think with regard to them there is likely to be any permanent disagreement or any evil result. It is evident, with regard to Jamaica, for instance, although the Assembly was lately disposed to press an immediate reduction in the Judges' salaries, which we could not think to be just, yet that the very reasonable opposition made in the Council, and the able speech of the Chief Justice, have produced a great effect in that island; and it does not appear that they will press any great reductions but those they can make with justice. I believe the reduction already made will amount to about 70,000 l. on the expenditure of the island.
With regard to another colony, with respect to which there has been an examination by a Select Committee of this House—with regard to British Guiana—when Mr. Barkly was about to proceed to take the government of that island, I begged to see him; I told him that from my impression, both at the time I was at the Colonial Office and since, I thought that the government of the colony was placed in the hands of a species of oligarchy; that
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I did not make any alteration when I was Secretary of State, seeing that the change from slavery to freedom had lately taken place, but that I begged his instant attention to the subject, and that he would inform me whether he did not think the constitution might be amended—and, above all, that there should be a wider basis for the financial council of the island. I will not detain the House with references to the College of Kriegen Combined Court, the Court of Financial Representatives, or other bodies, but will only say that I received a very able letter from Governor Barkly upon the subject, and that, so far as the extension of the franchise is concerned, he proposed that there should be an extension, and he carried a measure for that purpose. New elections have taken place, and, though the electors have not been so numerous as it is expected they will be hereafter, there was a much greater body of electors than has ever been the case before.
A question has been raised with regard to the salary of the Governor of Guiana; and this, I think, is an instance how difficult it is for gentlemen to carry into effect the principle they are quite ready to assert, namely, that the colonies ought to be allowed to manage their own affairs, and that without a clear and absolute necessity we ought not to interfere in that management. The salary of the Governor is 5,000 l. a year; it is a question with the colony whether it ought to be continued at the same amount. The Government has said it is for them to dispose of that question. Many might say—if I were an inhabitant of the colony I should be disposed to say—that, having a considerable expenditure, it is far better to give a sufficient salary; that they are more likely to obtain men to undertake the affairs of the colony who are competent for the task, by giving a large and liberal salary, than if they make a narrow limit to the amount; others might say that the salary is excessive, and ought to be considerably reduced. But this I think is clear, that as it is an expenditure from the funds of British Guiana, it is for the representatives of British Guiana, and not for the House of Commons, to prescribe the amount of that salary. Yet, though that is the case, I hear gentlemen who are entirely for leaving colonies to manage their own affairs, declare that whether the representatives of the colony wish it or not, there ought to be a certain amount fixed according to

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their own notion of what may be proper for the Governor.
With regard to other changes in the colony of British Guiana, although Mr. Barkly is of opinion that in time other changes might be introduced, I do not believe that he intends immediately to propose them. He thinks the changes ought to be gradual—that with a population that not long ago were slaves, and among whom there is often considerable excitement, it is advisable gradually to alter institutions, and introduce more freedom.
With regard to Trinidad, Lord Harris, the Governor, writes word that there are no less than seven races constituting the inhabitants of that colony; and that though, for his own part, he thinks it would be difficult to have any general popular representation, yet he thinks, and justly thinks, that to say because the people may be unfit for popular institutions at present, and you decide not to introduce them—you would, therefore, not take a step in advance, would be to interpose a continual bar to their obtaining them. He, therefore, proposes there should be a municipal council at the seat of government, and that they should be elective. He considers there would be advantages derived from the formation of such a council, and gives various reasons which I need not mention, why it would not be expedient to go farther at present.
With respect to the Mauritius, Sir G. Anderson thinks there should be a municipality appointed, which should be elective.
With respect to Malta, again, the present Governor has done what many persons would have thought unadvisable in Malta—but which does not appear to have been so—namely, he has introduced some elective members into the Council. As for the other colonies, I need not go into any question of free institutions for them. I do not think there is a single one which can be mentioned beyond those I have named which should at present have any representative institutions.
I come, therefore, Sir, to another question—a question of very considerable importance as refering to the colonies, but which is not in itself solely and strictly colonial. I mean the question of transportation. It was decided in 1786, to found a penal colony in New South Wales; and measures were taken for that purpose, and a certain number of convicts were sent out to a place where there was no other population. There were no free settlers with them, and hardly a sufficient number of
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persons to assist them with respect to religious instruction.
Now the plan of transportation must be considered altogether as one which concerns the Parliament of this country, as far as legislation is concerned—as one which concerns the Home Secretary far more than the Secretary for the Colonies, so far as administration is concerned. So far as my noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies is concerned, he would, I am sure, be well satisfied if he were told there should be no more convicts sent to the colonies, and that transportation was abolished; but inasmuch as Parliament has decided—and decided more than once—that transportation is to continue, it is for him to endeavour that that transportation should take place in a manner least injurious to the colonies. That it is the wish of the Parliament and the country to continue this system, I think I am entitled to say, because having no great leaning to transportation, and not much approving of the punishment, when I attempted, about 1840, to diminish the number of convicts sent abroad, a resolution was passed by this House affirming that so large a number of convicts should not be kept in this country. I say further it is the wish of Parliament, because when the two Secretaries of State gave their opinion in writing with respect to the diminution of transportation, a Committee was appointed in the other House of Parliament, and various Judges of the land were heard in support of the system of transportation as being necessary for the due execution of the criminal law of the country. Now, if this be the case, until that view be altered, the Colonial Secretary must endeavour to carry that system of transportation into effect in the manner which may enable the colonies to derive as much advantage, with as little injury as possible.
When I held the seals of the Colonial Office, I became acquainted with the mischief transportation has done in New South Wales; and I advised Her Majesty accordingly, and obtained an Order in Council to put a stop to transportation; and there is no act of mine, while I was in the Colonial Office, to which I look with greater satisfaction than having done so. I believe that the change which has taken place in the character of New South Wales—that the altering it from a colony of which one-half the inhabitants were convicts, and no inconsiderable portion of the other half were "emancipees," as they were called,

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or persons who had been transported, to a colony of free people, was of the greatest advantage to the province. I believe there are at present in New South Wales 200,000 inhabitants, and only 6,000 of them are convicts. Whatever number of convicts may be introduced in future, if the inhabitants wish it, it is evident the whole character of the community has been so changed that it has become a free community, and has taken its place among the free colonies of this country.
But when I made the change I had in view to diminish very considerably the total number of convicts. That change, owing partly to the disposition of Parliament, and partly to the Government which succeeded us, did not take place. A large number of convicts were accordingly sent to Van Diemen's Land. The noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department in the Government which succeeded us, found, however, that too many convicts were introduced into that colony, and proposed to suspend transportation to Van Diemen's Land; a measure which was carried into effect by the present Government.
The present Government, on coming into office, proposed various alterations with respect to the system of transportation, and proposed, likewise, that in cases where colonies were willing to accept of a small number of convicts, they should be sent to those colonies; it being always understood that convicts should not be forced on them against their will.
It happened that, among the causes of pressure which arose out of the famine in Ireland, there sprung up a very great pressure from the large number of persons sentenced to transportation, the crowded state of the gaols, and the mortality taking place in consequence in these gaols. My noble Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonial Department, on those representations reaching him, thought he would be justified in sending 300 of those persons who had committed crimes owing to the pressure of the famine, and had been sentenced to transportation, from the Bermudas to the Cape of Good Hope, and that if he did so they would be received by the inhabitants. It appears that a feeling—and a feeling I highly commend in itself—a feeling of fear and apprehension that the colony might be made a penal settlement—founded on what I think exaggerated apprehensions with respect to the introduction of these 300 convicts—sprung up at the Cape of Good Hope, and that there
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has arisen a most unfortunate state of things there. The order, authorising transportation to the Cape, has been rescinded by the Queen in Council; instructions have been sent out for the ship to proceed to Van Diemen's Land, and all sources of apprehension and opposition will, I trust, cease in the removal of all grounds for them.
I do not wish, of course, to enter into any discussion with respect to the merits of that opposition—I wish, indeed, to touch as little matter of a personal nature as possible, and neither to take credit to the Government, nor to evade censure, for what they have done, only stating what has already taken place, and so much of past transactions as may enable the House to see what course they have followed, and what will be the future policy of the Government.
With respect to the future management of transportation, it is a subject not without considerable difficulty. The legislature of New South Wales has already intimated its desire not to accept any more convicts, while, at the same time, when a ship laden with convicts—[Mr. HAWES: Two ships,]—or, as my hon. Friend near me informs me, when two ships laden with convicts arrived there, the services of those convicts were immediately in demand—and, indeed, they were hired more easily than the free emigrants. But it must be expected that there will, more and more, arise among the settled colonies an aversion to transported convicts; and this House will, I am persuaded, have to consider, before long, whether an alteration shall not be made with respect to the punishment of transportation as regards some classes of offences not of the gravest character.
That question, however, does not immediately press on us. There is another question of the very greatest consequence, and which some persons, indeed, have regarded as the main point to be considered with respect to the colonies. I mean the question of emigration. Now, with regard to this subject, there are two modes in which emigration can be carried on, and two modes in which it can be carried on beneficially. The first is where labourers, whose labour is valuable in certain States and colonies, go out in numbers to those States and colonies, and fill up, as it were, the interstices of society—whose labour is much in demand, and who, from being in this country persons on the brink of destitution,

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and scarcely obtaining any employment, though ready to give their toil for the smallest pittance, obtain high wages and ample subsistence in other countries. Of emigration of this kind there has been a very great mass directed to the United States and the British North American colonies.
There is the second kind of emigration, which is formed of different classes of the people, for the purpose of founding new colonies in places where English and European society does not already exist. Of this kind, likewise, there has been a very considerable amount going on from this country.
As regards emigration of the first kind, I have here some accounts which have been furnished to me by Mr. Murdoch, who is now at the head of the Emigration Board, and it appears from them that the total emigration from these kingdoms for the last three years was 796,354 persons; giving an average of 265,450 per annum. Now, I beg the House to consider how very large this emigration is. It is within 40,000 or 50,000 of what has been computed as the whole annual increase of the population of this country; and though it has been, no doubt, magnified in one or two of those years by the famine which took place in Ireland, yet I consider that as regards this first sort of emigration—namely, that which consists of labourers, and principally going to the United States and British North America—it is an emigration which we may look to see continue for many years. I believe that the means which the labouring classes have found for themselves, of transmitting money home to their relations and friends, to enable them to emigrate, when they have obtained a sufficient sum from their wages, is likely to continue, and to furnish the means of a great expenditure for the purposes of emigration.
I do not believe that the time will speedily arrive when there will be no great demands for labour in the United States and British North America. The difficulty which existed hitherto was that of finding means of transportation, and of enabling persons almost destitute here, and obtaining no demand for their labour, to get a position in other countries, where they could obtain that demand.
I do not believe that any Government scheme could have been so extensive as to effect that purpose; nor do I believe, that, if it had been so extensive, it would have effected the purpose in the same way as
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this voluntary emigration. In the first place, if you laid out a hundred, or two or three hundred thousand pounds for that object, it would, no doubt, have been a very large sum; but I believe the sum which has been expended for the purpose, in the way I have mentioned, in one year, has been no less than 1,500,000 l. sterling. Now, I believe, if you had laid out 1,500,000 l., you would have found every species of abuse; you would have carried many persons from this country with false characters, and they would have been found such a curse by the United States and by our own provinces, that these countries would soon have put a stop to it, and have said—" Don't send to us the idle, the halt, and the crippled—the mere dregs of your population. If such is the character of your emigration, we must interfere and check it." That, I believe, would have been the consequence of any great plan of emigration carried on by the Government.
I do not mean to say that in some cases, and under some particular circumstances, assistance should not be given by the Government, but what I say is this—that seeing the people have found out for themselves that by transmitting small sums of money they are able to bring over their wives, relations, and children to countries where their labour is of value, that it is better not to interfere by a Government plan, which beside being a burthen on this country, from the sum taken from the taxes, would be in other respects a positive evil.
There is another species of emigration; and it is that which is sent out to our Australian colonies. It is an emigration of the second description to which I have alluded, and which goes very much to found new settlements, or to increase the new settlements lately established there. It appears that in 1848 and 1849 emigration of this kind furnished 39,000 persons, or rather more than 19,000 a year. In New Zealand also there has been a project started for forming a new settlement, called the Canterbury Settlement. There are, however, already more than 12,000 Europeans in New Zealand, and I feel no doubt that there will be in a very few years a large emigration to that colony, and that New Zealand will be one of the most flourishing of our dependencies. I think, therefore, that as regards emigration generally speaking, and with, as I said, a reserve as to any particular measure and particular districts, we may look with satisfaction

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to the present state of this question, and that we may consider one of the great wants of this country—that of finding a vent for the increasing population—will be fully satisfied, without at the same time doing that of which I was apprehensive, and sending out people to colonies where their labour is not in demand, and where their condition would be still worse than it was in the country from which they came.
I have now stated the principal points, and indeed nearly the whole, of the question, of which I wished to put the House in possession with respect to colonial government. I have not attempted to do more than to give leading facts with regard to many important questions, each of which might furnish matter of discussion for a night's debate. I thought it might be useful for the House to have, however imperfectly, a sketch of the general state of the colonies and of the propositions we are about to ask you to agree to, as well as the measures already carried into effect.
The whole result of what I have to say is, that in the first place, whatever discontent—and, in some places, well-founded discontent, it must be owned—has arisen from a transition painful to the colonists, from a system of monopoly, as regards the colonies, to a system of free trade, we ought not to attempt to go back, in any respect, from that decision, but that you shall trade with your colonies on the principle that you are at liberty to obtain productions from other countries where they may be produced better or cheaper than in the colonies, and that the colonies should be at liberty to trade with all parts of the world in the manner which may seem to them most advantageous. That, I say, must in future be a cardinal point in our policy.
The next point, I think, is, that in conformity with the policy on which you have governed your British North American colonies, you should, as far as possible, proceed upon the principle of introducing and maintaining political freedom in all your colonies. I think whenever you say political freedom cannot be introduced, you are bound to show the reasons for the exemption, and to show that the people are a race among whom it is impossible to carry out free institutions—that you must show the colony is not formed of the British people, or even that there is no such admixture of the British population as to make it safe to introduce representative institutions. Unless you can show that, I think the general rule would be that, you
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should send to the different parts of the world, and maintain in your different colonies men of the British race, and capable of governing themselves; men whom you tell they shall have full liberty of governing themselves, and that while you are their representative with respect to all foreign concerns, you wish to interfere no further in their domestic concerns than may be clearly and decidedly necessary to prevent a conflict in the colony itself.
I believe these are the sound principles on which we ought to proceed. I am sure, at least, they are the principles on which the present Government intends to proceed, and I believe they are those which in their general features will obtain the assent and approbation of the House. Whether on particular questions the House may not dissent from us—whether, with respect to the details of the Bill I propose to introduce, they may not come to a different opinion from us, is a question on which I do not now wish to enter; and certainly I shall be glad if a better mode and better details be pointed out with regard to some of those measures. But what I say is, we should not be considering whether we should part with those colonies—whether we should make the connexion looser—or whether we should even leave them with less means of defence against foreign aggression.
With respect to the question of military force, indeed, I shall reserve the discussion of that to a future occasion, when it will be more immediately before the House. With respect to some of our colonies, my noble Friend the Secretary of State has stated that he thinks the force now existing might be safely diminished. But I believe these colonies will look to you for their defence in any foreign war, or against any foreign aggressor. And I think you are bound to give it to them. I think also you are bound to maintain the means by which you will be able to give them that assistance.
I believe not only that you may proceed on those principles without any danger for the present, but there may be questions arising hereafter which you may solve without any danger of such an unhappy conflict as that which took place with what are now the United States of America. On looking back at the origin of that unhappy contest, I cannot but think that it was not a single error or a single blunder which got us into that contest, but a series of repeated errors and repeated blunders—of a policy asserted and then retreated from

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—again asserted, and then concessions made when they were too late—and of obstinacy when it was unseasonable. I believe that it was by such a course we entered into the unhappy contest with what were at its commencement the loyal provinces of North America. I trust we shall never again have to deplore such a contest. I anticipate indeed with others that some of the colonies may so grow in population and wealth that they may say—" Our strength is sufficient to enable us to be independent of England. The link is now become onerous to us—the time is come when we think we can, in amity and alliance with England, maintain our independence." I do not think that that time is yet approaching. But let us make them as far as possible, fit to govern themselves—let us give them, as far as we can, the capacity of ruling their own affairs—let them increase in wealth and population, and whatever may happen, we of this great empire shall have the consolation of saying that We have contributed to the happiness of the world.
The noble Lord then placed in the hands of the Chairman the following Resolutions:—
"1. That provision be made for the better Government of Her Majesty's Australian Colonies,
"2. That the Governors and Legislative Councils of Her Majesty's Australian Colonies be authorised to impose and levy Duties of Customs on Goods, Wares, and Merchandise imported into such Colonies."

THE AUSTRALIAN COLONIES—COMMITTEE.
SIR W. MOLESWORTH: Sir, the noble Lord at the head of the Government commenced his speech by explaining the principles on which our colonial empire was founded. He then stated facts bearing upon the population and commerce of that empire, and from thence inferred that it would not be to the advantage but to the detriment of the kingdom, were our colonial possessions to be abandoned. In most of the observations of the noble Lord with respect to these points, I entirely agree. The noble Lord then proceeded to explain the future colonial policy of the Government; but I must say, that in some respects the explanation was one which I did not distinctly understand. The noble Lord spoke of granting constitutions to the colonies, and he referred to certain old colonial charters giving power to the colonies in whose favour they were granted to frame their own constitutions. If the noble Lord intends to adhere to the principles of the
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old charters, he will find me a warm adherent. Next the noble Lord proceeded to censure an association of gentlemen which had been formed for the purpose of obtaining a reform in colonial government. Now, as I am a member of that association, I will state what were the reasons which caused its formation. Its members organised it because they entirely agreed with the noble Lord, that we ought to maintain our colonial empire—because they knew that discontent prevailed extensively throughout our colonies—because they had no hopes of reform from the Colonial Office—and because they believed that a train of errors and blunders, similar to that which lost us the United States, was now endangering the colonial possessions which remained to us—and because they had little faith in the Colonial Office as regards its promises to give free institutions to the colonies. The inhabitants of Australia complain that every year since the present Government came into office, they have been promised free institutions, and every year those promises have been systematically violated. Now, Sir, that the complaints to which I allude are not ill-founded, I think that the following history of promises made to Australia will prove: Pour years ago—on the 14th August, 1846, the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies began by stating that "he hoped and trusted that Her Majesty's Government would be enabled in a short time to consider a better form of government for Van Diemen's Land." On the receipt of this intelligence great was the joy of the inhabitants of the Australian colonies; they believed that the Secretary of State for the Colonies was going immediately to fulfil all the expectations which had been raised by his unofficial speeches on colonial reform. And greater still was their joy when they received the intelligence, three years ago, that on the 17th May, 1847, the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had announced to this House "that a measure was in contemplation, he might say in preparation, with a view to give the benefits of the British constitution to the Australian colonies generally"—"the measure "said the hon. Gentleman, "was in an advanced state, and would assuredly very speedily, either in that Session or in the next, be brought under the notice of Parliament." Now, how was this promise, made three years ago, fulfilled? No such measure was brought under the notice of Parliament in the Session of 1847, nor in 1848; but instead of it came a shower of fresh promises, each of them again to be broken. On the

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7th of March, 1848, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade appeared amongst the promise-makers, and stated that "the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies hoped during the present Session of Parliament to propose a measure for granting free institutions to the Australian colonies." On the 31st of the same month the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, having found a seat, declared "that he was only waiting for an opportunity to introduce a Bill." On the 8th of May, 1848, the noble Lord the Prime Minister stated "that it was his intention to introduce a measure at the earliest moment that it was possible." Again, I ask, how were these promises, made two years ago, fulfilled? May, June, and July passed away without the arrival of the "earliest possible moment" of the noble Lord. For four months the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies waited in vain for "an opportunity," At length, on the 18th of August, 1848, the hop. Gentleman assured the House that "at the very earliest period of the next Session, the Bill would be laid upon the table of the House." How was this promise kept? On the 16th of April last I heard to my astonishment the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies reckon the Australian colonies among those which possessed free institutions, because, as he explained, they had had representative institutions conceded to them in principle, and were included in a Bill which he hoped shortly to lay on the table of the House. At length, two months afterwards, on the 4th of June last, the Bill was produced—the offspring of three years' protracted parturition. But even then its birth was premature; it had to be immediately withdrawn, and Bill No. 2 was produced; on examination Bill No. 2 proved to be so mis-shapen a cub, that on the 2nd of July the Prime Minister announced that it would be necessary to make some most important changes in it; and finally, on the 17th of July, the noble Lord withdrew his changeling. Thus, regularly every year for the last four years, the fairest promises have been made to these colonies, and their hopes have been raised, and regularly every year those promises have been broken, and the hopes of the colonists bitterly disappointed. Naturally enough this repeated promise-breaking has produced the greatest discontent, and under the influence of angry feelings the colonists attribute the worst motives to the authors of their disappointment. They blame the
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people, the Parliament, and the statesman of Great Britain. They say that the people and Parliament care nothing and know nothing about the colonies, but abandon them entirely to the Colonial Office. They accuse the statesmen of Great Britain, especially those connected with the Colonial Office, of being in their hearts unwilling to deprive themselves of power and patronage by bestowing free institutions on the colonies. Thus many of the colonists, unfortunately believing their rulers to be selfish and faithless, have begun to despair, and in despair to ask one another how they can redress their own grievances. And in reply some of them answer, that it was by rebellion that Canada obtained responsible government, that it is by threats and menaces that the men of the Cape are successfully striving to save their colony from convict pollution; and they ask one another whether Anglo-Australians are less energetic than the habitants of Canada, or less bold than the boors of the Cape. That such language is used, and that such sentiments are entertained but too generally throughout some of the most important of our colonial possessions, no one acquainted with those colonies can deny, or fail to lament, if, like myself, he be anxious for the preservation of the colonial empire of Great Britain. Who, I ask, can deny that discontent prevails throughout the colonies? Every year it is increasing in intensity and becoming more alarming; from every quarter menacing sounds are heard, bitter complaints of colonial government, and fierce denunciations of the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies. The Cape of Good Hope denounces him for having broken a solemn promise, attempted to insult and degrade an innocent colony, and driven its once loyal inhabitants to the brink of rebellion. Van Diemen's Land curses him for a breach of faith in renewing transportation, which now afflicts that ill-fated country with crimes too loathsome to mention. New South Wales, dreading a similar fate, answers with a threat of rebellion his proposal again to send convicts to that colony. His own colony of Victoria, of which he was once the chosen representative, now bids him defiance, and drives his convict ships from its shores. And even Western Australia indignantly protests against his making it a penal settlement. All Australia, Tasmania, New Zealand, and South Africa, accuse him of having year after year raised their hopes of

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obtaining free institutions, year after year disappointed those hopes, and, on some flimsy pretext, falsified his word. British Guiana, Jamaica, and the rest of the West Indies, look upon him as their worst foe, as the enemy to that economy and retrenchment so much needed in their present distressed condition. Canada taunts him, with its trembling Governor rewarded for his prowess with a British peerage, and makes his policy a pretext for seeking to be annexed to the United States. Ceylon and the Ionian Islands accuse him of having with indecent haste approved of and rewarded deeds which disgrace the British name, and which, in the opinion of Europe, rival in atrocity those of Haynau and Radetzky. And Malta taxes him with conduct unworthy of an Englishman, in refusing asylum to political exiles, and thus setting a bad example, of which the despots of Europe too gladly avail themselves. Thus, from every quarter, north, south, east, and west—from Canada and Australia, from the West Indies and South Africa—charges are brought against the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, of injudicious appointments, ignorance, negligence, vacillation, breach of faith, and tyranny. Though all the colonies unanimously cry out against the noble Earl, yet, I maintain that it is not the individual, but the system, which is the real cause of the existing discontent—that as long as that system is unreformed, it matters not who may be the Secretary of State for the Colonies, discontent will prevail throughout the colonies—every year increasing in intensity, menacing the stability of our colonial empire, and threatening its forcible tearing asunder, to be accompanied perhaps by hateful civil wars, with vast expenditure and much misery both to this country and to the colonies. To avert this impending danger, Parliament must hasten to make a complete and thorough reform of our system of colonial government. There is no time to be lost. There has been too much delay already. The question is, to what extent the policy propounded by the noble Lord will effect a reform in our colonial system. Now, in the observations I am about to address to the House, I shall confine myself to the colonies, properly so called. I mean those colonies in which the European race may be expected to increase and multiply. In those colonies there are three chief causes of discontent: first, some of the colonies complain of the want of free institutions, or of the want of the
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power to alter and amend existing ones; secondly, all the colonies complain of the appointments made by the Colonial Office; and, thirdly, every colony complains of the arbitrary interference of the Colonial Office in its internal affairs. The noble Lord contends that it is the duty of those who blame the existing system, and who wish to retain our colonial empire, to point out the line of policy they think should be adopted. Now, I shall attempt to meet the challenge thrown out by the noble Lord, not by expressing in abstract terms my opinions with respect to colonial policy generally, but by considering some of the measures which he proposes. In the government of a colony there appear to me to be two distinct questions to be considered: first, the form of government or constitution of a colony; and, secondly, the powers to be delegated to the colonial authorities. With respect to the form of government, I could not distinctly gather from the noble Lord what form he intends for the Cape of Good Hope. With respect to the Australian colonies, the noble Lord has said, that the present Bill is a reproduction of the Bill of last year; but the noble Lord rather surprised me when he called it a copy of the British constitution. The noble Lord intends, it appears, to give to all the Australian colonies the present constitution of New South Wales. Now, let me just describe to the Committee what is the present constitution of that colony. Suppose that 110 Members of this House had seats in virtue of holding office under the Crown, and for as long only as they held office; and that in addition to the 110 official Members, there were 110 other Members who were appointed Members by the Government at the commencement of every Parliament, making in all 220 votes at the disposal of Government. Suppose, likewise, that the House of Lords were abolished, and that, instead of Her Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria, we had a governor of the ordinary description; then we should enjoy the benefits of the British constitution after the fashion of New South Wales. How would such a constitution work with us? We should be divided into two permanent factions, actuated by the fiercest hatred of each other. One party would pride itself upon being the representative of the people, and would look with scorn and contempt upon the other party as the base and subservient tools of the Government. No question would be considered

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to be settled which was decided against the wishes of the elective Members, and the official and nominated Members would be held up to public odium and hatred if they ever presumed to defeat the wishes of the elective Members. It is evident, that in theory such a constitution is absurd, and that in practice it must be a very bad one. But the noble Lord said that the Australian colonies are to have power to alter or amend their constitutions to the extent of forming a second chamber. Now, I acknowledge that if this power be fully conceded to them, my objections to this portion of the Bill of the noble Lord will be considerably diminished. But, I must say that, in my opinion, sufficient power to amend their constitutions would not have been given to the colonies by the Bill of last year; and I presume, from the statement of the noble Lord, that he does not propose in the Bill of this year to give these colonies a greater amount of power. It appears to me, that neither Parliament nor the Colonial Office has been very successful in devising constitutions for the colonies. In fact, all the attempts of late years at constitution-making have failed. The model constitution of the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department was suspended the year after it was enacted. [Mr. HAWES: It was never given up.] No; but it was suspended. Then with respect to the Cape of Good Hope; it is said, that the Government requested Sir Harry Smith to send home the form of a constitution for that colony. Now, no one has a higher respect for Sir Harry Smith than I have. He is an admirable officer, and is well qualified to defeat Caffres; but I do not think that his despatches have proved him to be a Solon. With respect to the Australian colonies, I will merely say, that if the noble Lord at the head of the Government adopts the principle laid down in the charter of Lord Carlisle, and desires to frame constitutions which shall give satisfaction in the colonies, the opinions of the colonists ought to be distinctly taken on the subject. It is not sufficient to ascertain the opinions of a governor, or to refer to the sentiments of one or two newspapers, or the expressions of one or two public meetings. A constituent assembly, composed of the representatives of the people should be summoned, and to them should be delegated the power of determining the form of their constitution. Next, I ask, what are the powers which ought to be delegated
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to the colonial authorities? That appears to me to be a far more important question than the mere question of a colonial constitution. I am sorry to find, from the statement of the noble Lord, that he intends to retain to the Colonial Office its present arbitrary power of disallowing all acts of the colonial legislatures, and thus of interfering in the internal affairs of the colonies. Now, this arbitrary power has been, and as long as it exists will continue to be, a perpetual cause of colonial discontent and of never-ending discord between the colonies and the Imperial Government. All the colonies complain of the arbitrary power of the Colonial Office. Those complaints are frequently but too well founded. How is it possible they can be otherwise than well founded? Consider who are the persons who are entrusted with this arbitrary power. The heads of the Colonial Office change with every change of government. They are absentee rulers, living at the distance of many thousands of miles from their subjects. They never have ocular experience of the condition of the colonies. They have no personal interest in the well-being of the colonists. They are always obliged to trust to second-hand and partial information with regard to the colonies. They are therefore generally ignorant, and, worse than ignorant—they are generally misinformed about colonial questions. They are said to be responsible to Parliament: that responsibility is a farce; for we cannot spare time to attend to colonial affairs; we cannot obtain accurate and impartial information about the colonies; we are necessarily ignorant; and our system of colonial government may with accuracy be described as government by the misinformed, with responsibility to the ignorant. This kind of government is most bitterly distasteful to men of our race and habits. How should we feel, if we were colonists distant a myriad of miles from our mother country, and were liable to have our acts of parliament disallowed at the whim and caprice of some noble Lord at the antipodes, responsible to a parliament sitting at Sidney, and knowing nothing about us? How should we like to have to wait three years before we could be certain that our acts of parliament are laws? Why does the noble Lord retain this arbitrary power to the Colonial Office? I presume because the noble Lord will say the Colonial Office is the guardian of imperial interests, and ought, therefore, to retain a power

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of disallowing acts of the colonial legislatures, lest those legislatures should make laws injurious to imperial interests. Now, I acknowledge at once, that means must be taken to prevent the colonial legislatures from making laws injurious to imperial interests. But I deny that it is necessary for that purpose to retain to the Colonial Office its present arbitrary power of disallowing all acts of the colonial legislatures. We may take care of imperial interests in a much better manner, as I will explain in a few words. To do so, I must observe that all executive and legislative powers, with reference to a colony, may be divided into two classes. One class I call imperial powers, because they ought to be strictly reserved to the Imperial Government; and they ought to be so reserved, because they are indispensable for the maintenance of the unity of the empire, and for the management of the common concerns of the whole empire. Therefore they ought on no account to be delegated to the colonies, and the colonial legislatures ought not to be entitled to make any laws affecting or derogating from imperial powers; for if they were entitled so to do, the unity of the empire would be destroyed. Now, all other executive and legislative powers with reference to a colony, except the imperial ones, I call local powers, because they have reference to the management of the local concerns of a colony, as distinguished from the common concerns of the whole empire. Now, it is evidently of great and primary importance to this country, and to the empire as a whole, in what manner imperial powers are exercised; therefore imperial powers ought to be strictly reserved to the Imperial Government, and no colonial legislature should be entitled to make any law affecting or derogating from imperial powers. On the other hand, it is evidently a matter of little or secondary importance to this country, and to the empire as a whole, in what manner local powers are exercised, provided only that the colonists are not dissatisfied with the Imperial Government on account of the manner in which the local powers are exercised. Now, it is impossible for men on one side of the globe to manage the affairs of Englishmen on the other side of the globe without producing intense dissatisfaction. Oh the other hand, if the colonists were to obtain the uncontrolled management of their local affairs, and if in any respect they were to mismanage their local affairs, for so doing
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they would have themselves to blame, and nobody else. Therefore I infer that we ought to delegate to the colonies all local powers, and entitle them to pass any law affecting their local concerns. Consequently, I infer that we ought to deprive the Colonial Office of its present arbitrary power to disallow all acts of the colonial legislatures, and to limit the power of the Colonial Office to questions affecting imperial powers. For this purpose it would be necessary carefully to enumerate and to accurately define the powers which ought to be held to be imperial powers. Now, the noble Lord says that it would be impossible to draw the line of distinction. He began his speech by saying, that he could not spare time to attend very carefully to these subjects. But I am sure that the noble Lord, if he applied all his energies to the question, could draw the line of distinction. Such a definition of imperial powers has not only been attempted, but made, by those Anglo-Saxon statesmen who formed the constitution of America; and glad should I be if the colonies were as much attached to the mother country as the States are to the American Union. I proposed last Session that a Royal Commission should be appointed for the purpose of defining imperial powers, and to prepare a measure of colonial reform. I regret much that the House did not assent to that proposal, for by this time the House would have possessed a more accurate enumeration of imperial powers than that which it can expect from me; but I am prepared, at this moment, if the Committee will bear with me for a few minutes, to enumerate the powers which in my opinion should be reserved as imperial ones. First, I would enact that there should be strictly reserved to Her Majesty all the following powers and prerogatives; namely, to send or receive ambassadors, to enter into any treaty, alliance, or confederation with any prince, State, or Power; to grant letters of marque and reprisal during peace or war, and to grant safe conducts during war; to declare or make war—conceding to the colony, when actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as not to admit of delay, the power to engage in war; to confiscate the property of alien enemies in time of war; to establish prize courts; to command the militia in time of war, and at all times to command all regular naval and military forces employed in and about the said colony; to coin money or regulate its value, or

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that of foreign coin; to grant titles of nobility; to regulate the transmission of letters by sea to or from a colony and any other place; to keep any land or naval forces in or about a colony, or the coast thereof; to erect forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings for military purposes; to place garrisons therein, and to exercise exclusive jurisdiction within the precincts thereof; to take possession of any waste land situate within the said colony, and of any other land therein, upon making due compensation to the owners and occupiers thereof, for the purpose of erecting such forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings, and for any other military purpose. Secondly, I would enact that the colonial legislature shall not have power to make any-law to affect or derogate from the aforesaid powers and prerogatives of the Crown; to establish slavery; to alter the succession of the Grown, or pass any act affecting the style and dignity of the Crown, or relating to the appointment of a regent; to absolve any person from his allegiance; to deprive any person of the right of appeal to Her Majesty in Council, in any case in which such appeal now subsists; to make any law containing any matter or thing contrary to the law of nations, as received and administered in the Court of Great Britain; to make any law respecting captures by land or water, or to define piracies and felonies committed on the high seas; to make any law affecting the command, regulations, or discipline of Her Majesty's military and naval forces; to make anything but gold or silver coin a legal tender; to define treason, or alter the law relating thereto; to lay any duty on supplies to Her Majesty's military and naval forces; to bring in any Bill of attainder; to impose any differential duty on imports to, or exports from, any part of Her Majesty's dominions, or any duty inconsistent with any treaty that already has been or may hereafter be entered into between Her Majesty, her heirs, and successors, and any foreign country; to confer any privilege or immunity on the inhabitants of New South Wales that shall not equally be conferred on the other subjects of Her Majesty, and every law or provision in a law in contravention of this clause shall be Void. Now, in consequence of these reservations, various legal questions would arise, which I would propose to refer to the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy
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Council. Thus, I would substitute for the present arbitrary power of the Colonial Office a legally-defined power. Now, there is nothing which men of our race hate more than arbitrary power—nothing which they respect more than a legally-defined power. At present the colonial legislatures do not know what laws they may, and what laws they may not, make. In fact, they may at present make any laws whatever, affecting imperial interests in any manner whatever, provided the Colonial Office does not disallow them within a certain period of time. On the other hand, the colonial legislatures cannot make any law which the Colonial Office may not disallow. I propose, therefore, in the manner which I have explained, to enable the colonial legislatures to know precisely what laws they may make, and what laws they must abstain from making; and I propose to settle all disputes which might arise by means of the decisions of one of the highest and most esteemed judicial tribunals in this country. I have now answered the challenge that those who would effect reform in our colonial system should state what in their opinion the alterations should consist in. In order to reduce my principles into a practical shape, I have, with the aid of some legal friends, prepared a Bill for New South Wales. I do not propose to introduce that Bill; for to do so it would be necessary to have the consent of the Government. But if the Government and the House should desire it, I will introduce the Bill, pledging myself, however, only to general principles, and to a general outline, and not to minute details; for, in order to make a perfect measure, information would be required from the Colonial Office, and it would be necessary to consult constitutional lawyers. I must now beg pardon for trespassing so long on the attention of the Committee; but I must rest my excuse in the challenge thrown out by the noble Lord. In conclusion, I would say that our true colonial policy is to have faith in our colonists—to believe that they are as rational men as we are, and understand their local concerns better than we can; consequently we ought to give them the uncontrolled management of their local, as contradistinguished from imperial, concerns. Then the colonists, relieved from the hated tyranny of the Colonial Office; enjoying all the rights and privileges of British citizens; bearing true allegiance to the Monarch of these realms; willingly obeying the laws made by the Imperial

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Parliament, or by the constituted authorities to whom Parliament shall have delegated legislative power; having, therefore, no reason, real or imaginary, to find fault with the Imperial Government—would be bound to the empire by the strong ties of race, language, and self-interest.
MR. ANSTEYagreed with the hon. Baronet that the veto of the Colonial Secretary ought only to be given to acts of the colonial legislatures affecting imperial interests. The hon. Baronet proposed to abolish the Colonial Office under one name, and to renew it under another. His scheme proposed to abolish Earl Grey, and to transfer his functions to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. [Sir W. MOLESWORTH: No, no!] He understood the hon. Baronet to say that in those cases where a question arose as to whether the local legislature had exceeded its functions by trenching upon the prerogative of the Crown, the decision was to lie with the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. [Sir W. MOLESWORTH: No, no!] Then he had been very much misled. But if so, the scheme left them without even the assistance of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, in order to ascertain whether the interference of the Crown was called for or not; and they would have litigation without end, not of a peaceful, perhaps, but almost of an armed character, between the Crown and the colony. If, however, the impression which he had first received of the plan was a correct one, then its adoption would be simply to transfer the Colonial Office from Downing-street to Whitehall. He thought the true objection to the plan proposed by the noble Lord at the head of the Government for the Australian colonies was, that it contemplated the creation of a council one-third of whose members should be nominees of the Crown. He was, however, prepared to accept for the present even a much worse scheme than had been proposed by the noble Lord. If the council elected under this Bill proceeded to exercise the powers with which they were invested, he thought the noble Lord, acting in conformity with those sound, enlightened, and statesmanlike views which he had that night enunciated, would not advise Her Majesty in Council to countermand the alterations they might see fit to make. Speaking more particularly with reference to Van Diemen's Land, the operation of the scheme would be this—that one-third of the members would be the nominees of
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the Crown. The majority which would be found to support the measures of the local Government, would form perhaps two-thirds of the entire council, because the financial position of Van Diemen's Land, derived from the time when Sir George Arthur was Governor, had resulted in placing almost the whole of the property of the island at the disposal of the chief officers of the Government, all of whom were shareholders and managers of the principal banks—banks possessing mortgages over nine-tenths of the property in the colony. They would therefore be able to compel those who had property, to execute implicitly their will and pleasure; and their influence being brought to bear on the elections, the consequence would be, that the chief proprietors of the island would be at the disposal of the Government. If they must have nominees of the Crown, let them do in Van Diemen's Land what they proposed to do in the Cape of Good Hope—create two councils, and let those not influenced by those banking establishments—those who were either not proprietors, or who had small properties—elect the Lower House, and leave the great proprietors to elect the Legislative Council. The evil, for the present, would no doubt be great; but they might hope to see the time when the state of the colony would be so much improved that the system would be found to work with great advantage.
MR. BAILLIEsaid, it was not his intention, on the present occasion, to enter into any general observations on the very important subjects which the noble Lord or the hon. Baronet had brought under their notice that evening. Indeed, he should confine the very few remarks he had then to make, to one only of the colonies which had been mentioned by the noble Lord. The noble Lord had entered into a statement with respect to the constitution which had been granted to British Guiana, and declared that the franchise in that colony had been considerably increased. Now, as he (Mr. Baillie) believed the noble Lord, doubtless from the multiplicity of the subjects which he had to bring under the notice of the House, had been misinformed on the question, he would beg leave to make a statement of the real facts of the case to the House. The Committee which sat to consider the grievances of British Guiana, recommended that an alteration should be made in the constitution of that colony; but it also recommended that that alteration should be made in

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friendly concert with the colonial authorities. Now, when that paragraph of the report was under discussion, he took the liberty of asking the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth what was the interpretation which he placed upon it. He asked him explicitly if, in his opinion, it could be considered in friendly concert with the colonial authorities for a Bill to be introduced into the Court of Policy, and forced through that court wholly by the official votes; and the right hon. Baronet stated that he should consider such a proceeding most objectionable. Now, he (Mr. Baillie) was prepared to state to the House that this was the course which the Governor of British Guiana had resorted to. The new Franchise Bill in British Guiana was forced through the Court of Policy by official votes only—every one of the elected members voted against the measure, which was merely carried by the double vote of the Governor, and became law. Every one of the elected members, considering this to be an arbitrary proceeding, resigned his seat; and although every one of them, he believed, would have been returned under the new Bill, they positively refused to allow themselves to be put in nomination. Now, the noble Lord stated that the number of the electors had been increased; but he (Mr. Baillie) was informed, on the contrary, that the number of the electors—very small as it was before in British Guiana—had now been reduced by 200. And in order that the House might have an illustration of the manner in which the elections were now carried on under the new Bill, he would just state what took place at the election for the county of Essequibo. The former Member for that county refused to stand; and the candidate sent to replace him was the Solicitor General. There were just two electors present at the election; the one elector was the gaoler, and the other the county clerk. The Solicitor General was proposed by the county clerk, and seconded by the gaoler, and was returned as the Member for the county of Essequibo. So that a Government officer was proposed by one Government officer, and seconded by another, and then elected by the two! That would illustrate the sort of constitution which the Government had granted to British Guiana. It was not his intention to enter into the general discussion of the measure at present. Doubtless another opportunity would be afforded for doing so; and then he should enter more generally into the question.
MR. LABOUCHEREhoped the few remarks he would address to the Committee would be ill strict harmony with the same calm and dispassionate tone which he rejoiced to find the House had observed hitherto, in the discussion of the highly important subject brought under its notice by the noble Lord—a tone which he trusted would prove an augury of the manner in which colonial subjects were to be discussed this Session, and which he thought it of the deepest importance they should ever observe, when it was considered that an incautious remark, or an excited expression, although made in that House without any such intention, might yet have the effect, when it reached the colonies, of producing incalculable mischief. He was particularly anxious to address the House, having borne a share, as a Member of the Committee of Privy Council in Trade and Plantations, in recommending to the adoption of the Government the two important measures that were submitted to the House relating to the Australian colonies and to British Guiana. And he wished to refer to some remarks made by the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark, which he thought likely to create an erroneous impression that ought to be removed. He was quite ready to concede the general principle of the propriety of the mother country giving the most ample powers of self and free government as regards all matters strictly connected with their local affairs to those of her colonial dependencies which were peopled by the English race; and he rejoiced that the Government, after so much vague declamation had been used on this subject, had had an opportunity of proving that its professions were not mere empty words, whilst it at the same time solicited the advice and assistance of the House on these difficult questions deeply affecting the interests of a great and distant colonial empire. And he thought no fair and candid man would hesitate to admit, however he might differ from the views of the Government with regard to the details of these measures, that with respect to their scope and tenor, Her Majesty's Ministers had been animated by a sincere desire to give freedom—constitutional freedom and local self-government in the amplest possible manner—to the inhabitants of these vast and growing colonies. He had heard, he confessed, with considerable surprise, very great censures passed by the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark on the plan which the Government had proposed for

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the Australian colonies; but he rejoiced that they bad already received intelligence from that part of the world which led him to suppose that there were very good grounds for stating that the inhabitants of the Australian colonies themselves would receive in a very different spirit and manner those proposals of the Government which had drawn so much stricture and objection from the hon. Baronet. It was quite true that he had not yet any official despatches on the subject to offer to the Committee on this occasion; but there existed other means of information regarding the feeling of colonies like these, that were of a nature scarcely less valuable and trustworthy. He held in his hand a copy of a leading newspaper, published in New South Wales, which must be well known to every gentleman who had taken a deep interest in the affairs of that part of the globe. He meant the Sydney Herald—a journal not only of the greatest circulation in the colony, but which represented the opinions and sentiments of by so far the more popular party. Now he begged the House to contrast the language of that paper with the words of Gentlemen speaking in the name of the colonists on the floor of that House that evening. The paper had just arrived in this country, the date being the 19th September last. The language of the Sydney Herald, referring to the report of the Committee of Privy Council on Trade and Plantations, was couched in terms too flattering and complimentary certainly to those who had drawn up that report; but, considering the object for which he quoted it, he trusted it would not be ascribed to personal vanity if he read it to the House:—
"Those of our readers who have attentively perused the long and elaborate report of the Committee of the Board of Trade, published in our columns in May last, will no doubt agree with us in thinking it one of the ablest and most consolatory documents of the kind ever laid before a colony. To what extent other British colonies may have experienced kind treatment from the Home Government it is not for us to say, but certainly we must testify that never before has the colony of New South Wales received so large a share of Ministerial consideration, liberality, and kindness as it has in the present instance. Her Majesty in Council has been graciously pleased to concede to us nearly everything we have asked for."
He, perhaps, ought to make some allowance for the first burst of gratitude on receiving a great gift, and he was not so ignorant of human nature as to think such expressions did not require some degree of qualification; but at the same time he
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thought he had a perfect right to say that the Government had not been altogether unsuccessful in conciliating the public opinion of the inhabitants of New South Wales, in framing the proposition they had ventured, after much deliberation, to recommend to the adoption of Parliament. So much, then, as to the state of public opinion in New South Wales. But he had also another paper that had arrived by the same mail from Port Phillip. He was less acquainted with the character of this paper, and therefore could not speak with so much confidence of its value as an authority as he had done of the other. It was the Victoria Colonist of the 14th September, and it stated as follows:—
"It must be highly gratifying to Earl Grey and the rest of Her Majesty's Ministers to find that the boon granted by them to the Australian colonies in the new constitution before us, has diffused such a general satisfaction throughout the province of Victoria. All the newspapers are unanimous in their expressions of approval, and there is not even one solitary instance of dissent."
Therefore it would appear they had at present reason to believe that the inhabitants of the Australian colonies would be less critical and more easy to please on this matter than some of those, who, doubtless with the best intentions, stood forward to defend their interests in that House; and that they were inclined gratefully and readily to accept those measures which he might truly say were framed and devised with a sincere desire to promote their benefit and consult their wishes, and to place them upon that footing on which he was sure they had a right to be—that of free members of the British empire. The Government had reason, he said, for believing that their efforts in this respect had not been unattended with success, and that they would secure the object for which they were intended, and lay by this Bill the foundations of free institutions, calculated to produce happiness and prosperity for the colonies concerned. It had been urged by some that a constitution of three estates, following the model of the constitution of the mother country, was altogether preferable to the form of constitution now proposed for New South Wales. Now, the fact was, that that was the very same opinion as had been originally strongly expressed in the report of the Committee of Privy Council on Trade and Plantations; and it was only in deference to the strong feeling existing in the Australian colonies, as conveyed to the Home Government in

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the resolutions passed at numerous public meetings, and annexed to the despatch of Sir W. Denison, that the original intention had been departed from. That was the sole reason why the Government now recommended that the mixed council should remain "here it was, whilst at the same time they should be invested with the power of altering it whenever they thought fit. The House would find numbers of petitions from different towns in the colony contained in the papers headed "Australian Colonies," now lying on the table. He would quote one at pages 3, 4, as a specimen. It was—
"That the contents of the despatch dated July 31, 1847, from Earl Grey, Secretary of State for the Colonies, has excited in the breasts of your Majesty's petitioners indignation and alarm, as by it they learn that the electoral franchise enjoyed by them under the Act of the Imperial Parliament of 5 & 6 Vict., cap. 76, was about to be abrogated and superseded by a crude experiment no less at variance with the principles of the British constitution, than absurd and impracticable in a population dispersed, and located, as are the inhabitants of New South Wales. Second to none of Tour Majesty's subjects, in glowing loyalty to Tour Majesty's person, and deep veneration for the principles of the constitution of the parent State, as seen in operation in Great Britain, Tour Majesty's petitioners are unconscious of any adequate reason for depriving them of that dearly cherished birthright of a Briton, the power of electing his representatives in the councils of their country. That an Act effecting the change propounded by Earl Grey, would deprive Tour Majesty's petitioners of that power, and thus be in truth to them a Bill of pains and penalties, without a pretence that any conduct of theirs has merited punishment. That Tour Majesty's petitioners claim the right to enjoy, as nearly as circumstances will admit, the full benefit of the principles of the British constitution, and humbly and earnestly implore Tour Majesty to be graciously pleased to interpose your high authority to prevent this colony being made the field of theoretical experiments in legislation. That, as born subjects of Your Majesty, they conceive themselves entitled to all the blessings and benefits of Britons; and they have, therefore, a right to expect that no alteration in the constitution of the colony shall be effected without the previous assent of those whose liberties and property must be affected by it. Your petitioners, therefore, most humbly pray Tour Most Gracious Majesty will not assent to any alteration of electoral franchise of your subjects in this colony, which may have the effect of diminishing the rights they now enjoy, nor any such important changes in the form of their government, which shall not have been previously submitted for the opinion, and received the approbation, of the colonists."
The Government, under these circumstance, had done exactly what the colonists wished; for whilst they had retained the institutions they now had, they included
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within them the farther power of being altered when the colony should think fit, and he found that that part of the scheme of the Government received their unqualified approbation. So much for the question of the Bill for the Australian colonies now before the House. But the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark had made some observations also on the constitution proposed to be given to the Cape of Good Hope, to which he felt it necessary to advert. The papers relating to this subject had certainly lain on the table but a very short time, and therefore he could not blame the hon. Baronet for the mistake he had made; but he assuredly could never have read the documents with any great degree of attention when he represented the plan of the Government to be what he had stated it. [Sir W. MOLESWORTH said, that he had not been guided by the papers which he had not read, but by the speech of the noble Lord at the head of the Government.] The hon. Baronet said that the constitution for the Cape was to be left to the decision of Sir Harry Smith. [Sir W. MOLESWORTH expressed his dissent.] Nothing could be more completely at variance with the truth than this assertion, the truth being that the main principles of this constitution were imperatively laid down, there not being the difficulty in the case of the Cape, that was encountered in that of Australia. There they introduced that form of constitution in the abstract which they believed to be the best fitted for Englishmen—namely, that of the three estates—and gave the colony the Governor and the two Councils. The only thing left to Sir Harry Smith was certain details with regard to the qualifications and other matters, which the Government felt it extremely difficult to settle in this country, without sources of information which the Governor and his Council on the spot could most effectually command. And he was sure that any Gentleman who read with any care the able and talented papers emanating from the members of the Council at the Cape of Good Hope, from the Chief Justice and Secretary Montague, and Mr. Porter, the Attorney General, and observed the liberal and enlarged spirit in which they were conceived, must feel that the Government acted judiciously and wisely in leaving it to them to suggest these details, rather than incur the risk, by attempting to arrange them with their imperfect knowledge of the circumstances, of having them

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sent home, in case of mistake, to be entirely framed anew. He did not think it necessary to trouble the House further on these subjects, but he must state his firm conviction that it would be most difficult in practice to draw a precise line of distinction between that class of questions which should be left entirely to the decision of the colonial legislatures, without reference to the Home Government, and those in which the Home Government should have the right of exercising a veto. He believed that every prudent English Government would desire, as far as possible, not only to promote, but to encourage all our colonies which had the blessing of free institutions in as far as possible, managing their own local concerns for themselves. He felt as strongly as the hon. Baronet could, the inexpediency, and indeed the impossibility, of our intermeddling in any manner that could prove beneficial to the colonies themselves, with the regulation of their own local affairs; but he believed it would be most difficult and dangerous to adopt a rule attempting to draw a precise line to distinguish imperial from local questions. He believed it might be done, however, for all practical and needful purposes, far better by the discretion and prudence of the Home Government, than could be effected by the fixed and arbitrary definitions of any Act of Parliament; and he agreed with what the hon. and learned Member for Youghal had said with respect to the solution of the difficulty which the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark saw, but could not solve. Leaving the difficulty of laying down definitions to the Privy Council, would occasion the most serious dangers and litigation. Even in the case of the United States of America, where the supreme court exercised the function of defining the limits of the authority of the State Legislature and the Congress respectively, serious difficulties had arisen, although the two separate jurisdictions existed in one spot and in the same country; and these evils he believed would be infinitely multiplied and aggravated whenever distant colonies were found contending with the Imperial Government at home on questions of the nicest distinction. He believed, that under such a system, the discontent of the colonies would be infinitely greater than under the system which now existed, provided it was discreetly and properly administered. He firmly believed it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to
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work this system in a manner which would leave to the colonies, having local legislalatures, as far as possible, that unfettered and unrestricted management of their own concerns, which properly and fairly belonged to them. But he thought it was necessary for the general interests of the empire to reserve the ultimate and supreme control of the Government and Parliament of this country over all its scattered members. He admitted that that system might not be perfectly reconcileable in its working with the theory of the speculative philosopher; but, as Mr. Burke had said, it was yet found in its practical and daily operation to secure the freedom and happiness of all the different members of our great and widely-extended empire. And, therefore, he trusted the House would decide upon adhering to that view, without venturing upon what he believed to be the dangerous ground suggested by the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark.
MR. ROEBUCKsaid, he should be sorry to allow this occasion to pass without taking the opportunity of expressing his opinion upon a subject on which he had bestowed a considerable degree of attention. He understood the noble Lord at the head of the Government to have done two things that night: first, he had explained the general policy intended to be pursued by the Government with respect to our colonial possessions at large; and, next, he gave us an illustration of that general policy, in the shape of a specific measure. In support of the general policy which he was about to adopt, he had taken a review of the past history of our colonial system; but, by a most curious and extraordinary fatality, he had altogether omitted from his historical sketch the most important part of all our colonial history, namely, the colonisation of the present United States of America. The noble Lord moved that out of his path, and confined his observations to a certain charter given to Lord Carlisle in the reign of Charles I. with respect to one of our West India possessions; but if they had a policy at all in their colonial government, it was to be found in those remarkable charters which were granted to the United States of America. The hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark stated to the House that those charters were simply general powers conferred on the colonists whereby they might make unto themselves a constitution; but that was not the case. The charters given to those colonies were most peculiarly definite and specific, and

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went into the particulars—so much so, that some of them even to the present hour are the actual constitutions of a portion of the United States. And one of the most despotic Ministers this country ever had, under one of the most despotic monarchs this country ever had—Lord Clarendon, in the reign of Charles II.—conferred on Rhode Island so liberal a constitution, that to the present hour it is the constitution of that State. So specifically was it given, that they were enabled under it to elect a body that is the governing body to the present hour. The noble Lord laid down a most constitutional proposition of great liberality. He said it was the intention of the Government to give to the colonies the management entirely of their own concerns. He (Mr. Roebuck) was delighted to hear him say so; and then the noble Lord began to deal with, and comment upon, the conduct of certain gentlemen, Members of that House, of whom he (Mr. Roebuck) was proud to be one, in respect to the present policy of governing our colonial possessions. If they wanted a justification for their conduct, or required anything to satisfy themselves and the country, the conduct of the noble Lord supplied that justification. A set of gentlemen, belonging to all sections of politics, and from all parts of the country, expressed the deepest interest in colonial government, and made the noble Lord aware that the country felt interested in it, and he was also obliged to give attention to the subject. He (Mr. Roebuck) was satisfied that if the country was quiet, and if they had not expressed their opinions, the noble Lord would not be so anxious as he was on the present occasion to satisfy them. The noble Lord's attention having been directed to the subject, he came, as he generally did, very gallantly up to the subject, and very nearly satisfied him as to the colony of South Africa. But he would tell the noble Lord that he could never have two measures for their colonies, nor three measures; and after what was proposed to be done for South Africa, he might be sure that the colonies of Canada, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick, would all demand elective councils. That would be no new thing to him (Mr. Roebuck); he had been asking for something like twenty years for that elective council, and he saw a civil war arise because that council had been denied. He had seen a country held back in the race of improvement, because that was not granted. But the noble Lord's mind seemed now like a blank sheet of paper, ready
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to receive impressions free and unbiassed. His mind was brought to the conclusion that a double chamber was necessary,; and that both should be elective. He was delighted to hear that the noble Lord had brought his mind to that opinion; but he could not understand by what process, having arrived at that conclusion respecting South Africa, he should arrive at exactly the opposite conclusion with respect to New South Wales. [Mr. HAWES: No, no!] The noble Lord had certainly come to a most opposite conclusion with respect to New South Wales. This was no new question, and had been brought before other assemblies than that. They all knew that the question of a single chamber was a question mooted in France since 1789. The great revolution of 1789 turned on that very question, and the Constituent Assembly made one single chamber out of three. The noble Lord had this question in his mind before, and decided in favour of two chambers, but coming to New South Wales, it appeared that the colonists were so satisfied with the present constitution that they would not accept that which he (Mr. Roebuck) supposed would be a much better one. A petition had been referred to in which the petitioners protested against unnecessary and theoretical experiments; but this was no theoretical experiment. They had seen two chambers in this country for a number of years; and all their colonies in North America, except Rhode Island, had two chambers. And when the noble Lord was about to make a model constitution in South Africa, which will go down to posterity as peculiarly his own, he proposed a double chamber. Though some notion might prevail in Sydney in favour of their present system, was all South Australia or Port Phillip bound to follow that most unhappy experiment? What had they got at Sydney? A council, two-thirds of whom were elected members, and one-third the nominees of the Crown. [Mr. HAWES: The Governor.] Nominees of the Governor. Now if this form of constitution were to be imitated, what would those nominees be? They would constitute a clique of gentlemen connected with the Government, who would be in constant hot water with the whole community. The popular mind would be for ever directed against them. He (Mr. Roebuck) might say he had lived in a colonial community; he knew what it was—it was a small narrow community, everybody knowing everybody, and almost

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everybody hating everybody. He could not himself conceive anything so horrible to a man who did not wish constantly to be in hot water than living in that state. He knew what would be the consequence. The moment they got their council there, they would have a great constitutional question to discuss. It would be the subject of dispute and patriotic declamation. They would have opposition, and they would be always fighting with the Colonial Office—that is to say, the Colonial Office would be fighting with the colonies. [Mr. HAWES: About what?] My hon. Friend has been three years in the Colonial Office, and yet asks that question. Because the nominees of the Government would not satisfy the people. They might be the best possible legislature, but they would not be the legislature of the people. If it were composed of the most admirable men that could be found, the suspicions and prejudices of the people would be aroused, because there were a set of men sitting there who would be the nominees of the Government, and they would not be satisfied with that legislature. He asked the noble Lord, whose object he really believed to be to govern the colonies well, why did he halt thus in the march of improvement? His better mind was acting in South Africa, but in New South Wales it deserts him, and some evil genius now presides. Why, he asked, should they leave this single blot on the largest portion now of their colonial possessions? Taking the general name of Australia, it was the largest portion of land they had got to settle, and why should they maintain there a faulty constitution? It was admitted that, taking the general proposition, two chambers were better than one; but then it was said there was an instance in which one chamber at present exists, and as they were about to make constitutions for Van Diemen's Land, Port Phillip, South Australia, and another colony—as they were about to make five new constitutions in Australia, the Government were led to go against their better judgment, because there now exists one faulty constitution. He (Mr. Roebuck) asked the Government to deal with this question with a knowledge of human nature—he asked them to address themselves to the subject as men having a knowledge of human nature—he asked them, when making a great experiment like this, not to sow the seeds of discontent, and not to plant a quarrel which would overshadow the benefits to arise from this measure.
MR. HAWESbegged to call attention, in the first place, to two petitions signed by certain landowners and inhabitants of New South Wales. The petitioners stated that the 5 & 6 Vict., the Act establishing the constitution of New South Wales, was brought in and passed after serious deliberation; that it had only existed for five years, and was welcomed as a boon; and both prayed that no changes in this constitution might be made without their consent. There was also a petition to the same effect from Van Diemen's Land, objecting to any constitution but that conferred on New South Wales, and the Governor and Council of that island were also favourable to a single chamber. Now, New South Wales was the largest and most populous of their colonies, and what was the constitution it possessed? He was not going to defend a single chamber; he agreed that the old constitution was preferable, but what was the constitution that was so highly popular in New South Wales? The Legislative Council was elective, with this exception that one-third of its number consisted of nominees, the other two-thirds being elected by the people. It followed from that, that it was essentially a popular constitution, the numbers of official to elected members being in the ratio of one to two. If his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sheffield referred to the papers, he would see that the question of a single and double chamber had been debated in the Council of New South Wales, and there was a very narrow division—the double chamber being negatived only by a single vote. That was evidence clearly that there was a strong feeling in the colony of New South Wales prevailing in favour of a double chamber, for the minority was so large that it was only over-ruled by a single vote. But on examining the division it would be found that nine of the elected members voted against a double chamber, and only four for it. So the elected members decided two to one against the double chamber. His defence of the proposition of the Government, therefore, was, that the single chamber was acceptable to the colonists, and that it worked well, and they thought it right to rest their measures on an established and tried constitution that had given satisfaction. In taking that course, was it decided by Parliament that there should be a single chamber? If hon. Gentlemen referred to the Bill of last year—and the Bill of this year in this respect was the same

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as the last—they would find that the Legislative Council of New South Wales had power to alter this constitution. With this strong feeling in favour of a double chamber—with all this prepossession in favour of a double chamber, was it not wise to leave that question to be the subject of public discussion in the colony, to preserve their constitution intact, but to give to them the power, if public opinion became changed, of altering and modifying their constitution. That was the most deferential course towards their fellow-subjects in New South Wales that could be taken. Now he came to the observations that had been made in reference to the Cape. It was said they were establishing there what was an innovation upon their ancient colonial system, inasmuch as they were conferring on the Cape the privilege of having an elective Legislative Council; and it was said also that when once the Parliament of England declared the Legislative Council of the Cape should consist of elected members, it would be impossible to refuse to any other colony the boon they had granted to the Cape. Now, this must be considered, and so he would wish the House to consider it, that if any colony having a certain European population, desired to have an elective Legislative Council, their declaration for an elected Legislative Council would meet with no opposition from them. When an elected Legislative Council was granted to the Cape, it could not be objected to in other colonies, where the circumstances were the same. He did not wish to allude to anything of an angry or recriminatory nature that had marked the earlier part of the speech of the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark; but he must refer to the observation that, in consequence of the delay that had occurred in bringing forward this measure, the hopes of the colonists had been disappointed. That delay arose partly from the state of the business before the House last Session; and from that cause, and also from legal delays, they had been prevented from laying the Bill on the table of the House at the time they wished. But they had never any intention to depart from their plan. As far as regarded the constitution of the Cape and the constitution of the Australian colonies, the same plan was laid on the table of the House, in all its main provisions, in the early part of last year. He (Mr. Hawes) did not want to detract from the services conferred by the gentlemen belonging to the Colonial Reform Association; but he felt bound to say this—that those measures were actually
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matured, and the intention to introduce them entertained, long before the Colonial Reform Association was formed. One of the members of that association was a former Under Secretary of State, and that association invited the colonists to send accredited agents to represent the colonists. He (Mr. Hawes) must say that a more dangerous or objectionable measure was never suggested. Who was to accredit those parties? How were they to ascertain their connexion with the colonists? How could they know they represented them? They professed to ask for popular sympathy and support; how did they know that any of those parties would represent the colonists? He knew the colonies well enough, and the parties so sent might not be able to give the best and soundest information. The hon. Baronet—who showed how much he attended to the subject by the sketch he had given of his Bill—seemed to think it would be a very easy thing to distinguish between what he called local legislation and imperial legislation. If he came to the clause of the Act of Parliament, he (Mr. Hawes) would defy him successfully to do so; but even if he succeeded in making it manifest and clear that the distinction could be drawn, he (Mr. Hawes) had an objection to make a judicial body the arbiters of the question whom they had not adverted to at all. He had heard it said that the colony of New South Wales, or of New Zealand, could not vote a sum of 50 l. for the repair of the government-house or market place without writing home to the Secretary of State. That was not so. The money vote was taken in the Council; the appropriation vote was taken there as here, and the money was expended for local purposes long before the appropriation act came to them for ratification. While on the subject of local and imperial legislation, why did not the hon. Baronet refer to the question of the Canadian rebellion losses which had been discussed in that House? In that case, there was a Bill essentially local; but a very high authority in that House considered it to he a Bill involving imperial considerations; and he (Mr. Hawes) did not deny the weight of the arguments he had used in support of his views. He felt a deep interest in the question, and was of opinion at one time that a judicial committee might be formed. He had the pleasure of having many conversations with Mr. Godley, and could only say, that after consulting those who were best qualified to give information, and forming the best opinion in his power, he conceived what the

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hon. Baronet proposed would be an injurious measure. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Inverness-shire said he would take a future opportunity of calling the attention of the House to British Guiana, and therefore he (Mr. Hawes) would not now refer to it; but he begged to point out a serious mistake in the few words which the hon. Gentleman had uttered. The hon. Member had said the franchise was limited, and referred to an election where only two men had voted. Now, it had been his (Mr. Hawes's) fortune to be elected without a vote. He had seen many elections in this country, even in Westminster, without a vote; but because there was no contest, was it right to say there was no constituency, or to represent there were only two voters because the names of a proposer and seconder only appeared? From the papers on the table it would be found that there was a large number of registered electors, and when the proper time came, he should be prepared to explain the clauses inserted in the Bill on the subject. Referring generally to our colonial policy, when the measures now proposed came before the House, he hoped it would be found that all their colonies had representative forms of government, and as nearly those of the mother country as circumstances would permit. The hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark had stated, when speaking of the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope, Sir H. Smith, that he was no statesman. He would remind the hon. Baronet that, as Governor of that colony, he was addressed by the Secretary of State, and enjoyed the fullest opportunities of consulting the Attorney General and Judges of the colony; and he could confidently refer to the documents on the table of the House as proving the ability with which the Governor had discharged the duty imposed upon him. The papers on the table reflected the highest honour alike on the Governor and his advisers.
MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that it was not his intention at that late hour of the night to enter into any general view of the colonial policy as laid down by the noble Lord at the head of the Government at the commencement of this debate; neither was it his intention to enter into any defence of those gentlemen who had associated themselves together under the name of the Colonial Reform Association. There might, perhaps, be points in the constitution of that society which were open to criticism; but he thought that at any rate it was entitled, in all fairness, to the credit of having
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been a useful stimulus to the proceedings of the Government. The hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, observed that the Australian Constitution Bill was framed long before the formation of the Colonial Reform Association. Of that fact there could be no doubt; but it must he remembered that the Australian Constitution Bill was not the object of their admiration, but rather of their criticism. The credit which the Government had gained depended upon a much more recent production, namely, the outline of a constitution for the Cape of Good Hope; that, he apprehended, dated subsequent to the formation of the Association. [Mr. HAWES: No!] It was in January, 1850, that the idea of the elective council was canvassed in the Committee of Council of Trade and Plantations. He was very anxious to back the appeal which had been made by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, and was most desirous that they should not commit a false step with respect to the Australian constitution. Against the motives and intentions of the Government in proposing a single chamber for the Australian colonies, he had not a word to say. He believed the Bill brought in for that object, had been conceived in an honest and friendly spirit; and if he ventured to recommend another arrangement, it was by no means with the desire of casting any discredit upon hon. Members. But how stood the case with respect to this single chamber of New South Wales? The hon. Member the Under Secretary for the Colonies stated that in the first Bill they preferred a double chamber, but that they had adopted a single chamber because the feeling of the people of New South Wales was opposed to the creation of an Upper House. He (Mr. Gladstone) believed only one Member of the Legislative Assembly spoke against a second chamber. The hon. Under Secretary added, that they had provided a remedy for the error, if it were one, because they proposed to give to the legislature which they were about to constitute, the power of remodelling itself, and of establishing a double chamber instead of a single one. Now, with respect to this remedy, he thought it a most imperfect one, because he took it for granted that the object of the Government was to ascertain the sentiments of the community of New South Wales. He knew of no public interests, of no Crown interests, and of no colonial interest, in any of the colonies like that of New South Wales, apart from the interests and feelings of the people

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of the colony itself. The body which was to judge of the constitution, and which was to possess the power to alter it, was a body into which nomination largely entered. It was a perfectly conceivable case that in this council of thirty-six in New South Wales, there might be a majority of elected representatives who were favourable to a double chamber, but that such majority of elected representatives might be converted into a minority upon the whole, because the nominated members might object to the change from a single to a double chamber. And what was more natural than that the nominated members should so object? Because, of course, the second chamber, if desired, would be an elective one, and those gentlemen who sat, not by election, but by nomination, would naturally be arrayed upon the side of the single as against the double chamber. The remedy, therefore, proposed was a most imperfect one, and one which in all probability would be found entirely inoperative. But was the allegation of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies even correct, that this question of a double or single chamber had been fairly brought before the people of New South Wales, and decided by them in favour of the single chamber? He maintained that the question had not been so brought before them, and he joined issue with him upon a matter of fact. He maintained that, so far from their deciding in favour of the single chamber, the question had never been before them at all. The people of New South Wales had never dreamt that the Government would consent to give them an elective upper chamber. It was quite true that the question before them related to an upper chamber; but what question was that? It was, whether they would have an upper chamber composed of Government nominees? To that question they replied, "We have got our Government nominees, and we have got them combined in a single chamber with the popular representatives; and we think that system preferable to a house of representatives and a house of nominees." He was not sure that he would not have agreed with the colonists in that opinion. He confessed that he thought the existing constitution in British North America and in Canada was very defective. If the Government desired to draw out the plan for a second chamber, they must base it mainly and entirely upon the elective principle, and it would be of no use or value in
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checking the movements of a popular assembly, unless the elements of election 'were included in it. What had they seen take place in Canada? They were told I a little while ago that Lord Elgin, upon his change of government, had swamped the Legislative Council. He found that he was obliged to bring it in harmony with the House of Assembly, and that it was impossible for him to suppose that a number of gentlemen, having no title beyond general ability, and nominees of the Legislative Council, could stand in collision with the Lower House; and it was for this reason that he found it necessary to add to the number of members, and thereby destroy the independence of that House. If, however, the second chamber were elective, it would have a strength of its own, derived from the same source with that of the popular assembly—precisely the same as they saw was the case in France at this moment. There, the President of the Republic, though but one man, yet appealed to the will of the electors who chose him, against the will of those who elected the Assembly. Placed in these circumstances, the people of New South Wales had no alternative but an upper house of Crown nominees; and the judgment which they had come to upon the subject was a perfectly natural one, but it did not raise even the faintest presumption that they were opposed to a double chamber. The hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies had stated that the Governor of Van Die-men's Land recommended a single chamber. Such, however, was not the case, for he had sent home a most emphatic recommendation the very reverse, in his despatch of August 15, 1848. He there states—
"Without, therefore, wishing or presuming to give an opinion on the general question of the best form of legislative body, I may say that, under the peculiar circumstances of these colonies, I should most strenuously recommend the adoption of a second or upper chamber."
That was his opinion upon the subject; and that strenuous recommendation of an upper chamber was sufficient to dispose of the argument in favour of a single chamber, founded upon the assertion that the people of the colony had pronounced in favour of a single chamber. He would now briefly give his reasons why he conceived a double chamber preferable. In the first place, when the people of this colony learned that they were about to give an elective upper chamber to the Cape of Good Hope, it would at once be the signal

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for a strong agitation for a new constitution; and, secondly, that this constitution proposed for New South Wales, although it might have been a very fair constitution to enact some seven or eight years ago, when the public mind was not so rife upon these matters, still it was not a good one for the present time. He did not like the idea of gathering together a fixed body of gentlemen, neither more nor less than twelve, who were to be placed in the face of twenty-four elected members, not distinguished persons placed there because they were the most distinguished characters in the colony, or who received it as the reward of their efficient public service. There was none of the grace or dignity attaching to their position which there was to appointments to the House of Lords in this country, where they had the most eminent men of their professions, great warriors, or those who had distinguished themselves in their various lines of life; on the contrary, there were twelve men put there by the influence of the Crown, to check and control the actions of the elected members of a popular assembly. The appointment of these men involved a fundamental and vital error. It proceeded upon the supposition that the Crown had something to defend which the popular assembly was likely to attack—it proceeded on the supposition that the Crown had a set of interests in the colony opposed to those of the colonists, which tended to the creation of a sect or party in the colony, which was presumed to be assisted in some particular manner by an exclusive title to loyalty and British attachment of a part of the colonists. He did not deny that those gentlemen so nominated were sincerely loyal; but, in his opinion, it was most dangerous for them to do anything which should tend to create anything like a feeling of sect or party in the colony. They should endeavour to make the whole colony one British party. The best course to pursue, in order to obtain that desirable end, would be to leave the colonists to themselves—leave them to the management of their own affairs, show nothing like a feeling of jealousy or distrust of them, nor endeavour to press upon them institutions which appeared to show that this country had separate interests and separate objects in view, for which they thought it necessary to appoint special means of defence, lest, if the colonists possessed entire liberties, those objects would be frustrated by their want of attachment
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to us. When the subject came fairly before the House, he would be prepared to state more fully his opinions upon the question of a single chamber.
MR. HAWESsaid, that as the right hon. Member who had just resumed his seat had quoted incorrectly the opinion of Sir W. Denison, the Governor of Van Diemen's Land, with the permission of the House he would read some passages from the same despatch referred to by the right hon. Member, in order to show the error into which he had fallen:—
"In the face of this it would almost seem needless that I should say anything more upon the subject, as the chances appear to be that the Bill will have passed long before your Lordship can receive this despatch; but as delays may take place, and as your Lordship may not be able to carry the Bill through Parliament in the present Session, it will be but just to the members of the Executive Council, and to myself, that I should explain to your Lordship the grounds upon which we recommended the adoption of a form of government similar to that at present existing in New South Wales, without attempting to give an opinion as to the advantages or disadvantages contingent upon the adoption of that particular form. These reasons may all be summed up in the simple fact that the form was established in New South Wales, and that the Australian colonies are so connected together—so identified with each other, as far as the character and habits of the people are concerned—as to make any change in the existing system of representation, if applied only to one colony, a matter of very doubtful policy. The probability would be, that such a change would be looked upon with suspicion and dislike, and for that very reason would not be carried into effectual operation."
MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that the hon. Member had made an explanation, and had read some extracts; he wished, however, that he had continued reading a little longer, for he had just stopped at a very interesting part. The passage which he (Mr. Gladstone) had read, was the continuation of the letter. The object of the letter of the Governor of Van Diemen's Land was to show that it would be dangerous to alter the government of Van Diemen's Land from a single to a double chamber, while only one chamber remained in New South Wales; but he stated—and if the hon. Member had read on he would have seen the Governor's reasoning on the subject, which was as follows:—
"Without, therefore, wishing or presuming to give an opinion on the general question of the best form of legislative body, I may say that, under the peculiar circumstances of these colonies, I should most strenuously recommend the adoption of a second or upper chamber."
MR. HUMElooked on the present debate

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as a most important one, for it involved the peace and tranquillity of the colonies. He was pleased with a great part of the speech of the noble Lord at the head of the Government. Nothing could be better than his promises and statements, and all they wanted was for them to be realised. Their colonies from north to south, and from east to west, were discontented, because they were never allowed to govern themselves. Instead of a source of strength, which they would be if well governed, these colonies were a cause of weakness, in consequence of the repeated blunders committed in the mode of governing them, and the manner in which they had been tyrannised over. What he wanted was, to see all causes of discord and discontent removed from the colonies, and not their separation from this country. If the noble Lord carried out the doctrines he laid down with regard to the Cape, he was sure they would give entire satisfaction. But if the principle he laid down were good for the Cape, with its 80,000 colonists, he did not see why it should not be equally good for New South Wales, with its 200,000. He agreed with the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, that their other colonies would be discontented if they saw the people of the Cape obtaining better institutions than themselves, who were quiet, because the colonists of the Cape resisted, and defeated the Government. He therefore called on the noble Lord to treat all alike. Indeed he thought there should be an Act of Parliament, empowering the colonies to choose such institutions as they themselves liked best. He (Mr. Hume) was not one of those who feared a separation of their colonies; but he should say, he did fear separation if they continued to act towards them in the unkind and unjust manner they had heretofore done. The noble Lord had read to the House some chapters on colonial government; but he (Mr. Hume) could read for him chapter upon chapter condemnatory in the strongest measure of the proceedings of the Colonial Office, and complaining of the injury they suffered by reason of excessive taxation. Therefore he had to add his entreaty that the noble Lord who had first commenced, and commenced well, and he believed meant well, would continue, and assimilate the constitution of the other colonies with that which he intended to bestow on the Cape of Good Hope. He hoped and trusted, indeed he doubted not, that these colonies, as soon
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as they got the power of regulating their own affairs, would give their full attention to them, whereby an immense saving, in every point of view, would be effected for this country. Therefore, he thought the result would be a healing of the dissensions that previously existed, and that the boon of self-government would be the means of promoting happiness and contentment, and putting down discontent and dissatisfaction.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, that he cordially concurred in the sentiments which had been expressed by previous speakers, that this debate should be conducted with calmness and moderation; for if ever there was a debate which called for a display of calmness and moderation, and the absence of all party feeling or spirit, it was that of to-night. He fully believed that the consequences of this debate, in the course of the present Session even, would be either to rivet for ever the attachment of our colonies to the empire, and to relieve this country, wholly or in part, of her military burdens and expenses, or to exasperate the colonies, to disappoint their cherished anticipations, and perhaps to lose many of them for ever. After the very able and lucid speech of the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and the debate which had succeeded it, he felt that it would be something like presumption in him to occupy, at length, the time and attention of the House; but he could not refrain from expressing his congratulation to the House, to the country at large, and to the colonies, that there was at last found in this country a party desirous of promoting extensive reforms in our colonies, and that there was a recognised channel now established for giving expression to the public opinion of the colonies in this country, which had already succeeded so far as to force the noble Lord at the head of the Government to place in its proper position of prominency among the debates of the present Session this great colonial question—which had already forced the Government of this country to modify very essentially the principles which it had previously laid down in the Constitution Bill—and which he hoped would at last succeed in placing the interests of the colonists upon a surer and sounder basis. With respect to the Colonial Reform Association, the noble Lord had made some remarks upon it; but his criticisms were of so mild a nature that he (Mr. Adderley) could hardly quarrel with them. The noble Lord had

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characterised some of the proposed plans as being "a matter of dubious policy." He thought, however, that they could bear with that criticism, on account of the great assistance which the noble Lord had given that night to the objects and aim of the Association. The only part to which the noble Lord seemed to object in the proposed plan of the Association, was the establishment of correspondence with the colonies; and the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State alluded to the difficulties which attended the selection of accredited correspondents. To his (Mr. Adderley's) mind, however, the term "accredited "fully pointed out the nature of the proposed correspondence, and afforded a guarantee that it would not be correspondence pandering to the popular feelings of the colonies, and inviting complaints, but, on the contrary, calling for information upon all subjects affecting the interests of the colonies to open a free communication, and afford a free vent for the expression of the general feeling of the colonies—for giving the earliest information to this country, and for giving to the colonists a mode of expressing their opinion. If the noble Lord would suggest any mode by which they would attain the same objects more easily and more safely, they would be most thankful for the suggestion. As the noble Lord, however, had laid down the principle that British subjects were to be allowed to give expression to their opinions, he would, at all events, sympathise with the Association in their endeavours to supply the want of any mode of expressing that public opinion in this country. If the noble Lord would allow him to propose a contract, he would undertake to give up the "accredited" agents, if the noble Lord would give an elective council to New South Wales. He never felt the slightest reluctance in supporting the Government in bringing forward any measure which appeared to be adequate to the occasion; and if the noble Lord would bring forward such measures with respect to the colonies, he would most heartily give him his vote, and all the assistance in his power. He repudiated the notion that any opposition had been made to the colonial policy of the country from any personal hostility to any Minister of the Crown; but while he utterly repudiated any insinuation of that sort, he felt bound to say that he did not see in the scheme of policy laid down by the noble Lord any great advance beyond the measures of last Session, except in one
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particular paper, which had been produced from the Privy Council, suggesting a new-constitution for the Cape of Good Hope, and which only appeared yesterday upon the table of the House. He did not see that any other great advance had taken place; if he had, he, for one, would have caught at it with the greatest earnestness. He could not agree with the other plans which had been laid down, or with the premises upon which they had been laid down, nor could he agree with the noble Lord in the historical sketch upon which he seemed to rest his policy and his statesmanship, when he stated that it had always been the policy of this country to give freedom to the colonies. By way of proof of that assertion, the illustration which the noble Lord used was, that whenever the prerogative of the Crown was highest in this country, liberty was then the greatest in the colonies. That was, no doubt, quite true; and Guizot, when speaking of the constitution of England, went beyond that, and stated, that whenever the liberties of England were the greatest, those of her colonies were the lowest. So it was that now, when the prerogative was the lowest in this country, the liberties of the colonies had all but disappeared. The reason why the constitution of the colonies had disappeared with the declaration of American independence was merely because this country adopted the plan of making her colonies penal settlements. It was the very constitution of a penal colony to have a despotic governor over it; and until they could introduce freedom into gaols, it would be impossible to introduce a pure constitution into a convict colony. The noble Lord had said, that if the colonies were to possess entire self-government, they would, upon the first moment of danger, appeal to some foreign country. Did history, however, bear out that assertion? Who conquered Canada for us? Was it not the colonial officers of America? Did the Americans appeal to France? The very first grievance which Franklin had to bring to England as the agent of Pennsylvania was, that England did not allow it to tax itself for the purpose of self-defence as they desired to do. They wished to place a tax upon the whole of the colony, including the proprietors. England, however, taking the part of the proprietors, refused to allow the taxation to that extent. A general rule appeared to be laid down by some hon. Members, that it was

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utterly impossible to draw any line of distinction between imperial and local subjects, and, in his opinion, that was fatal to the whole plan. The noble Lord had stated, that such a distinction was a necessary part of the plan of the Government; and they had only qualified the proposal made to them by saying that the imperial exceptions should be of very rare occurrence—as of course they must be—the rule being that there should be local self-government, with a very few specified exceptions. The application of this principle had appeared before the House in the shape of two Bills—one, a Bill for New! South Wales, resuscitated from last year, with no alteration in it at all; and the other for the Cape of Good Hope, which had appeared within the last forty-eight hours. He thought that Her Majesty's Government had better allow the Colonial Reform Association to take the whole credit of this last measure, because otherwise it might be said out of doors that the Cape of Good Hope had got more than our other colonies, only because they had shown more spirit. But it had already been clearly shown, in the course of the debate, that the solitary ground advanced by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, and the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies, for making this distinction between New South Wales and the Cape of Good Hope, was without any foundation. He hoped, therefore, that the noble Lord would see no objection to giving the colonists of New South Wales what they most heartily desired—the most exact imitation of the British constitution which circumstances might allow. He could not help thinking, however, that the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Office had still too much attachment to his old system of colonial government, and that he still wished to see his own influence, and that of the governors whom he had appointed, supreme. He would call the attention of the House to a most extraordinary feature in the Cape of Good Hope constitution, which, he ventured to say, was a novelty not introduced in any form of constitution since the world began. He supposed that the noble Lord felt scrupulous about giving up altogether the principle of nomination, and that his scruples led him to make the extraordinary proposition that the Upper Chamber of the; Cape of Good Hope should be elected by an electoral body of officials. This electoral body was formed in the most ingenious
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manner to carry out the principle of parties in the colony. He did not object to that, but he could only account for the extraordinary artificial manner in which the scheme was drawn, by attributing it to the noble Lord's objection to part with the principle of nomination. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had said that the colony of New South Wales had expressed its assent to this Bill. He (Mr. Adderley), however, did not know how the House was to get at the expression of public opinion in that colony. The official tongue of the colony was tied by its connexion with Downing-street, and spoke only when the Colonial Office pulled the strings. The natural tongue of the colony had no utterance. What was the organ of public opinion in New South Wales? Was it the Sydney Morning Herald? He begged to say, that if any assent at all had been expressed, it was only in the form of an expression of gratitude for any change whatever, showing how eager they were for change, and how desperate their present condition was. It was alleged that there was a redeeming clause in this constitution of New South Wales—the clause which gave power to the colony to alter its own constitution. But he begged the House to bear in mind that whilst this clause was inserted in the Bill, its effect was neuralised by another, which reserved a veto to the Crown. He did not know whether it was worth while to take up any further the time of the House when the question had already been so fully discussed. He would only thank the noble Lord for his able speech, and remark, that in giving our colonies the power of self-government, Parliament would not yield anything to popular clamour, but would simply concede rights to which the colonists were entitled. A portion of the press had taken up the matter as if the schemes propounded by the noble Lord were a concession to a popular outcry; but he (Mr. Adderley) should be the last man in the world to yield anything to mere clamour. He would rather take arms against a colony than concede any claim of a rebellious tendency. It was because the grant of self-government was not a concession, but a restoration of the rights of British subjects, which our fellow-countrymen were entitled to abroad as well as at home, that he seconded the movement which the House was now making. There was great attachment felt in our colonies to the institutions of this country, perhaps even greater than

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what was felt at home. Many persons were led away by the presumed analogy between colonies and children; but even if they were to be treated as children, that was no reason why children's rights should be taken away. The very first ship-load of colonists that ever left the shores of this country were perfectly ready, on arriving at their destination, to assume the functions of self-government, and the colonies founded on this principle grew and flourished. It was because this plan had been reversed, and the colonies were treated as children under governors and tutors, that so much misgovernment had taken place in colonial administration. We had our own destiny before us, and that was one of the very highest in the world. Colonies had been founded in former times for the purpose of war and the purposes of commerce; but the noble Lord had pointed out that there were higher motives for colonisation than either of these objects—that freedom and civilisation for which it might be hoped the foundation had already been laid.
MR. AGLIONBYobserved, that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had made a remark on what he called the somewhat dubious policy of the Colonial Reform Association. Now he (Mr. Aglionby) saw no dubious policy at all in the proceedings of the Association; and he believed that its principles were based on truth, and that its action would be useful to the country. He could not help thinking that it would do good, both by encouraging Her Majesty's Government to persevere in the course which they had adopted, and by calling the attention of the public, and of Members of that House, to the subject of colonial reform. He did not think the worse of the Association for wishing to have accredited agents from the colonists. Information was much wanted, for the Colonial Office now relied on the statements made by governors, who did not always agree in opinion with the population over whom they presided. A very important remark had been made by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield, that it was both difficult and dangerous to give one form of government in one colony, and a different form in another. But he regretted to observe, that, with respect to New Zealand, the noble Lord held out no hopes of a constitution, except under its present nominee form, until the 7th March, 1853. Would that be tolerated? He ventured to say that the noble Lord would
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find it impossible to withhold one for so long a period; and he begged to call the attention of the House to this point, because when the Bill was brought before Parliament, and he found that New Zealand was not included in it, he should use his best exertions to extend the provisions of the measure to that colony. The history of New Zealand in this respect was most peculiar. In 1846 a constitution was granted, which was suspended on the 7th March, 1846, although the Government had the testimony of its own officer, Governor Grey, that the southern province was as fit as any in the world for representative institutions, although he did not think that the situation of the northern province was adapted for them. The constitution, however, was suspended in toto. The noble Lord said, that he would not give New Zealand a constitution on account of the natives. There were, certainly, some natives in the extreme north of the island, though not in the southern province; and in the middle island, a country as large as England, there were only 2,000 natives. As he had said before, when the Bill was brought forward he should press the claim of New Zealand for a constitution generally; and if he were defeated in that attempt, he should move that a constitution be granted to the southern province. The refusal of a constitution had produced the most deadly feud between the Governor of New Zealand and the colonists of the southern part of the island. He had been openly charged with deceiving the Government at home, and he would, therefore, caution the noble Lord not to reply too strongly on the opinions expressed by Governor Grey. He would now only thank the noble Lord for the gratification which he had experienced in hearing from him the very liberal sentiments which he had avowed in favour of self-government and representative institutions in the colonies.
MR. SCOTTsaid, the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade had justly observed, that nothing was of greater importance than that our discussions on colonial matters should be conducted in that House with temper and caution; for that whatever occurred there was sure to reach the colonies, and there to be criticised and commented on. If, then, it were desirable that they should avoid falling into inaccuracies in the heat of debate, how much more important was it that statements deliberately and authoritatively

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made should be unimpeachable. He regretted that such was not the case as to what had fallen from several Members of Her Majesty's Government on the subject of two independent chambers of the legislature of New South Wales. There never was a greater misconception—a statement more erroneous in point of fact had never been made in that House—than the declaration of the noble Lord at the head of the Government, echoed by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, and repeated again by the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies—that the decision of the Committee of the Privy Council, in favour of a single chamber in New South Wales, was in consequence of, and in conformity with, the wishes of the colonists. The right hon. Gentleman quoted the opinion of the Sydney Morning Herald, as showing the opinion of the colony on the subject. That journal has the widest circulation, is the best conducted, and the most respectable in the colony; but when a house of legislature is sitting, no editorial remarks are to be taken as the index of the opinion of its members. Let them learn the opinion of the members from themselves. He might as well quote the opinions of the London Morning Herald as reflecting the opinions of the Parliament or the Government of this country. At the time alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman, the Legislative Council was sitting, and there was ample opportunity of obtaining the opinion of that body. Why, he would ask, did he not state an opinion founded on the authority of the representative body in the colony? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford had justly said that only one Member of the Legislative Assembly had expressed an opinion against a second chamber. The gentleman to whom allusion was made, was Mr. Wentworth, who certainly had expressed an opinion against a second chamber the members of which were to be nominated by the Government; but this would hardly be regarded as an opinion against a second chamber. The hon. Member the Under Secretary for the Colonies had said that one of the greatest arguments for a single chamber was, that it was "an essentially popular" assembly; and as a proof of this, he stated that if twelve members of it were nominated by the Crown, twenty-four were elected by the people. If, then, in that House 200 Members were nominated by the Crown, and 400 Members were elected by the various
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constituencies, they would have, according; to the hon. Member the Under Secretary, a fair specimen of "an essentially popular" assembly, He (Mr. Scott) was altogether opposed to the Crown nominees sitting in cither of the colonial chambers. Every gentleman who had been in these colonies knew that there were ample opportunities for the Government officers to obtain seats in the chambers by popular election; and the fact was, that several persons holding official appointments under the Colonial Government in New South Wales, had been elected Members of the Council.' He entertained some doubts with respect to the society to which the noble Lord had adverted; but it should be recollected that peculiar circumstances had led to its formation. He would ask the noble Lord to name a colony in which there was not last year either distress or disturbance. The condition of the whole of our colonial empire was such as to occasion great alarm; and a strong feeling was excited that the connexion between the mother country and the colonies should not he severed by the vacillation of the Colonial Office. He was perfectly convinced that if the noble Lord had during last Session acted on those liberal views on colonial government which he had stated in so able and comprehensive a manner tonight, there would have been no desire to form such a society. The noble Lord had stated that the cause which led to the loss of our North American colonies in the last century, had been more the arbitrary nature of the government, than the unsteady policy which had been pursued. If this had led—and he believed it had—to dismemberment in the last century, the like causes were likely to have the same effects at the present time. We had pursued a policy the most vacillating and inconsistent. If they looked to the proceedings of the Colonial Office with regard to these colonies during the last three years, what did they see? A constitution bad been sent out to New Zealand which had been acted upon for one year in one of the islands, and then abandoned, and which had not been adopted at all in the other. Again, within the same period transportation to Van Die-men's Land bad been abandoned, and again readopted after some time, again abandoned, and since then again adopted. In 1846, the Under Secretary for the Colonies sent out a despatch to New South Wales announcing the grant of a new constitution. This constitution proved a mistake, and despatches were sent out in 1847,

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again in 1848, and again in 1849, each proposing to change the form of it. To Canada, in like manner, a despatch deeply affecting its social condition was sent out by one packet, and another despatch to undo the former forwarded by the very next mail. Such was the shifting system of our colonial policy as carried out by the Colonial Office. Its effects have already been partially developed in Canada, and if persevered in, results yet more disastrous may follow elsewhere.
COLONEL THOMPSONwould propose a question, an answer to which would be interesting to large classes in the country. In the colonial constitutions which are to be, is provision made for admitting the aborigines and their descendants to the full enjoyment of political privileges, on their complying with reasonable conditions? It was clear, for instance, that the New Zealander stood in precisely the same position as our British ancestors did to the Romans. If then he chose to "clothe his pink'd and painted hide," and conform to the rules and habits of English society, was the way open to him to the privileges of a "true-born Englishman," like any other of the elements out of which that heterogeneous being had been compounded?
MR. HAWEShad satisfaction in stating, that under British rule aborigines were entitled to every privilege of British-born subjects, and in fact were such whenever they complied with provisions made and provided.
Then it was
"1. Resolved—That provision be made for the better Government of Her Majesty's Australian Colonies.
"Resolved—That the Governors and Legislative Councils of Her Majesty's Australian Colonies be authorised to impose and levy Duties of Customs on Goods, Wares, and Merchandize imported into such Colonies."
Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.

PARTY PROCESSIONS (IRELAND).
SIR W. SOMERVILLEsaid, that in rising, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, in compliance with a pledge made at the close of last Session by his right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department, to move for leave to bring in a Bill to restrain Party Processions in Ireland, he should take the opportunity of briefly stating to the House the reasons which induced the Government to ask for this measure; and he would also shortly describe the nature of the Bill. The
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House was aware that this was not the first time the Parliament had been called upon to legislate on the subject. Unfortunately, in former times, party processions and party collisions frequently took place in Ireland. Formerly, attempts by proclamations, and by the authority and example of influential persons, were made to put a stop to such a state of things, but unfortunately all these efforts failed. In consequence of this, in 1832 a Bill was brought into that House, to restrain and put down these party processions. That Bill, which was for a limited period, was passed into a law, and it was renewed, at different times, until in June, 1845, it was allowed to expire. From that time to the present no such enactment existed for the purpose of putting down such processions. He wished he could say there had yet been no occasion to pass such an Act as existed at the time it was allowed to expire, in 1845. Since that time many influential Gentlemen, both by warning and exhortation, had endeavoured to put a stop to those proceedings; and the Government also, with the same object, on the approach of certain anniversaries, had directed additional forces of military and police to be sent into those districts in which such processions were expected to take place, but unfortunately those efforts had failed. Party processions had occurred at various parts of the country, and collisions had taken place between different classes of the people; and the consequence was that bloodshed had followed, and the greatest ill-will prevailed. In such a state of things he thought it would be considered the duty of the Legislature to interfere by some specific enactment on the subject. It might be true that by the common law these processions, as tending to a breach of the peace, might be punished as misdemeanors; but, unfortunately, it had not been found sufficient to meet the evil. In the few remarks he had offered to the House, he had not alluded to particular cases. It had been his wish to avoid them, because the Bill he proposed to bring in was not aimed at any particular party; and if he had been led into particular allusions, he should have incurred the risk of disturbing that unanimity and general concurrence of all parties which it was his wish to secure. He was sure that there was no Gentleman in that House who did not feel an anxiety to put an end to these unseemly scenes, and to put down a system which had been productive of so much evil. These party processions

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had caused loss of life and destruction of property, but not that alone; for they had tended to keep alive feelings of animosity and ill-will among the inhabitants of the same district, and thus retarded the coming of prosperity. That was a state of things which every Gentleman, on what side of the House soever he might sit, must desire to put a stop to. He would say no more on that point. He should have been well pleased if such a condition of affairs had existed as to render this measure unnecessary, and that special legislation had not been called for by party views and feelings. As the case stood, however, he had felt it his duty to propose this Bill to the House. Of the object and nature of the Bill he need only say that it proposed to deal with offences of this description in the same way as in the former Act—by summary jurisdiction; and that it was proposed to make this Bill perpetual.
Leave given.
Bill ordered to he brought in by Sir William Somerville, Sir George Grey, and Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland.
The House adjourned at half after Eleven o'clock till Monday next.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—1° Removal of Obstructions in Corn Trade (Scotland); Criminal Law Consolidation.
3° Registrar's Office, Bankruptcy.

AFFRAY AT DOLLY'S BRAE.
LORD STANLEYgave notice that on Monday, the 18th, he would call the attention of their Lordships to the unfortunate circumstances which took place at Dolly's Brae on the 12th of July last, and to the subsequent dismissal of his noble Friend, the Earl of Roden, and two other gentlemen, from the magistracy in consequence of these transactions. He also intended, at the same time to move for papers in addition to those already presented to Parliament. He thought it desirable to give notice of this Motion for a remote day in order that many Lords who wished to be present at the discussion might be enabled to attend; and in order that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland might have an opportunity of being present, or of giving such information as he might think requisite to his Colleagues, as upon that occasion he (Lord Stanley) might have occasion to express his opinion of the course pursued by that Nobleman.
The EARL of RODEN: In consequence of the notice of Motion which had just been given by the noble Baron, he begged leave to say a few words to their Lordships, as he supposed that his noble Friend intended upon that occasion to go fully into the events which occurred in Ireland last summer, and in which he was supposed to be concerned. All that he should now say was, that he should feel it to be his duty to be in his place on that occasion to answer any question which any of their Lordships might be pleased to put to him, or to give any statement which might be necessary to elicit the truth. He trusted, and hoped, that, as there were many circumstances that were known only to his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant and himself, it would be the convenience of the noble Earl to be present on that occasion.

CRIMINAL LAW CONSOLIDATION BILL.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he would introduce to their Lordships, for the third time, a Bill on a subject of very great

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importance. It was a Bill for consolidating and amending the criminal code. That Bill had been thoroughly considered and greatly improved; and he hoped that when it was passed in that House, it would also be fairly considered elsewhere, and that no fatal alterations might be made in it, as had been made in the Bankruptcy Consolidation Bill, whereby many criminals had been enabled to escape from justice.
Read 1a.

POOR LAW RETURNS.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHcalled the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the department of Woods and Forests to some questions which had recently been addressed to the chairmen and vice-chairmen of all boards of guardians in England and Wales, and the answers to which would bring out in detail the real condition of all classes of the people in this kingdom. He wanted to know whether those answers had yet been received, and if they had, when they would be laid upon the table?
The EARL of CARLISLEpromised to make inquiry on the subject.
House adjourned to Monday next.