Sitting of 10 May 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2o Public Health (Scotland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. S. Blair, from Bolton, against the Parliamentary Oaths Bill.—By Mr. Willeox, from Southampton, for an Extension of the Suffrage.—By Admiral Dundas, from Woolwich, for the Clergy Relief Bill.—By Mr. Du Pre, from Clergy of the Archdeaconry of Bucks, against the Marriages Bill—By Mr. F. Scott, from Berwickshire, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill: and from Longformacus, against the Sunday Travelling on Railways Bill—By Mr. Osborne, from the Granard Union, for Appropriation of the Tithe Rent Charge (Ireland) to the Support of the Poor.—By Mr. Heywood, from Preston, and other Places, respecting the Lancashire County Expenditure.—By Mr. Ricardo, from Wolstanton, for the County Rates and Expenditure Bill.—By Mr. Fuller, from Lewes, Sussex, for Repeal of the Duty on Malt.—By Mr. Muntz, from the Metropolitan Trades' Delegates, for the Establishment of Boards of Trade.—By Sir Edward Buxton, from woodford and Walthamstow, for the Enfranchisement of Copyholds.

SIGNATURES TO PETITIONS.
MR. THORNELYwished, as Chairman of the Committee whose duty it was to examine public petitions, to state, that a petition was presented to the House, and had been laid before the Committee, to which there were 200 signatures, which were written on scraps of paper, and pasted on a large sheet. He thought it was important that hon. Members should examine petitions before they presented them to the House. The Committee were of opinion that the petition in the present case was informal, and he, therefore, moved that it be withdrawn. According to the rules of the House the marks of persons who were
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unable to write their names were receivable upon proper authentication, but the signatures that were cut from other papers and pasted on a petition were not.
SIR R. H. INGLIS, as a Member of the Committee of which his hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton was chairman, begged to corroborate his statement, that the clergy of a certain archdeaconry had by letters sent in their adhesion to a principle of legislation, and their signatures were cut out of those letters and pasted on a petition. He thought it very important that all petitions should be signed by the parties who concurred in the prayer of them, or by a friend authorised to sign them on their behalf.
In reply to a question from Mr. HINDLEY,
MR. THORNELYsaid, that the petition in question was from the clergy of the archdeaconry of Dublin.
Subject dropped.

GREEK LOAN.
MR. B. COCHRANE, seeing the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs now in his place, which was a rare sight at the time for questions, wished to ask him whether the British Government were still paying the interest on the Greek loan, and whether he intended to insist on that being paid by the Greek Government?
VISCOUNT PALMENSTONsaid, as the Greek Government had made no payment of the interest, and as this country had guaranteed the payment, it had fallen on us to make it good. Government were in communication with the Government of Greece, and continually pressing upon them the necessity of making good their engagements. That Government promised to pay the interest with the first produce of the Greek revenue; but that, he was sorry to say, had been so small that they had not hitherto done so.
MR. B. COCHRANEhoped the British Government would insist upon payment. The answer of the noble Viscount was precisely the same now as he had got six years ago.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, the House was in possession of all the information on the subject; but they would recollect that England was only one of three Powers who had guaranteed the payment of the loan, and England therefore could not take a separate course from France or Russia.
Subject dropped.

BOARD OF CUSTOMS.
MR. EWARTsaid, that some time since a commission had been appointed to consider the best means of approving the administration of the Board of Customs. He begged to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any progress had been made by that commission, and when it was likely that they would report?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the commission had made its first report, and that in accordance with the recommendations therein contained, a Treasury Minute had been issued, the effect of which would be, he was happy to say, a saving of 50,000 l. a year.
Subject at an end.

CHICORY AND COFFEE.
Papers relating to the use and sale of Chicory as a substitute for or mixed with Coffee [presented 27th March] read.
MR. ANSTEYrose to move the resolution of which he had given notice. He said he was bound to inform the House that this Motion, if carried, would amount to a vote of censure upon the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as well as upon some of his predecessors in office. Certain Acts of Parliament had been passed, for the double purpose of protecting the revenue and encouraging the trade of the colonics. Another purpose of these Acts was to prevent fraud, individuals mixing certain deleterious ingredients with tea and coffee, and particularly the adulteration of coffee with chicory. The 3rd George IV., c. 53, recited that it was expedient to allow the manufacture and sale of scorched and roasted vegetable substances by persons not being dealers in coffee and cocoa; then it enacted that persons not being dealers in coffee might roast and sell such substances; and there was a clause in it which forbad the Excise from granting any license for that purpose to any dealer in coffee or cocoa. The object was, not to deprive the poor of the right to manufacture those substances for themselves if they chose; but to prevent parties making money at the expense of the public by selling cheap substances roasted and ground under the name and at the selling price of coffee. The prohibitions in this Act were enforced by penalties to be levied by the Excise. The right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer was bound to cause this Act to be respected, and to set an example, in his own
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official person, of respecting it himself. The object of the present Motion was to compel the right hon. Baronet to do that which, in answer to a question from himself (Mr. Anstey) two months ago, he deliberately refused to do—that was to say, to cause the officers of the Government who acted under his directions to perform the duties required from them by this Act. The right hon. Baronet having said he was not prepared to take that step, he had felt it his duty to move for certain papers in March last. The first part of the returns ordered was—
"Copies of Treasury Minutes allowing the use and sale of chicory as a substitute for or mixed with coffee, and of all memorials on this subject now before the Treasury."
Whether all the Treasury Minutes upon the subject were in the returns, he had no means of ascertaining; but that all the memorials were not included, he had the most certain means of knowing. Only one memorial was given, namely, that from Mr. James Cook, of Mincing-lane, dated the 22nd January last; but at the time the returns were ordered there were two others before the Treasury upon the subject: one from merchants and others in the city of London, dealers in and importers of coffee; and the other from the East India and China Association. Both these memorials were received by the right hon. Baronet on the 22nd February last, and he acknowledged the receipt of them the day following. He found a Treasury Minute, dated 10th April, 1832, during the Grey Administration, founded upon a report of the Commissioners of Excise, dated 2nd April, 1832, on a memorial of Messrs. Kenway and Sons, praying that an information exhibited against them for mixing chicory powder with coffee might not be proceeded with. They admitted the fact of such adulteration, and the Commissioners were of opinion that the information ought to have been proceeded with. The penalty under the 3rd Geo. IV., c. 53, for this offence was 50 l., which the Government was hound to see levied; but before stating the decision of the Lords of the Treasury upon this memorial and report, he would inform the House that in the preceding year, 1831, some of the most respectable tea-dealers in London and elsewhere prevailed upon the Executive to prosecute certain parties who were selling what was called British leaf—an article that might be put off as tea, but really grown on the hedges near London. On that occasion one single

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conviction was sufficient. The penalty was levied, and the practice put an end to. But in 1832, when the question was to prevent coffee-dealers from adulterating coffee, the Commissioners of Excise, contrary to their own convictions, were told by the Lords of the Treasury, that "as my Lords contemplate an alteration in the law with respect to the sale of chicory powder, my Lords do not consider it expedient that this information should be proceeded with." Passing over eight consecutive years, he came to the last Treasury Minute, which was dated the 4th August, 1840. The Board of Excise, it appeared, were still anxious to enforce the law, notwithstanding the connivance of the then Chancellor of the Exchequer at this practice of adulteration. Certain parties in Liverpool had had proceedings instituted against them for mixing chicory with their coffee, which they prayed might he ended, and the laws altered which prevented the mixture of these articles by dealers in coffee. "My Lords" then communicated to the Board of Excise the final decision of the Whig Cabinet, as follows:—
"Write to the Commissioners of Excise, that my Lords consider that the law was altered with the view of admitting the admixture of chicory with coffee. My Lords, therefore, do not consider that any measures should be enforced to prevent the sale of coffee mixed with chicory, and are of opinion that the prosecutions in question should be dropped. My Lords do not consider such admixture will be a fraud on the revenue, so long as the chicory pays the proper duty; and as between the seller and consumer, my Lords desire that Government should interfere as little as possible."
By whom had the law been altered? And when? The right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer said himself it remained unaltered; but the Lords of the Treasury in 1840 informed the Excise that they considered it had been altered. There could be no question that the law was still in force; and the only question was, whether it should be obeyed. The chicory used in the adulteration of coffee paid no duty. Foreign chicory, which had only a nominal place in the Customs list, did indeed pay the same duty as foreign coffee; but it could not compete with that grown in this country or in Ireland, where growth and sale were perfectly legal. The Lords of the Treasury "did not consider such admixture a fraud upon the revenue, so long as the chicory paid the proper duty." They thereby displayed most egregious ignorance, for the chicory so mixed
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displaced in the market an equal amount of coffee, which, whether foreign or colonial, contributed to the revenue. The revenue was thus directly defrauded by the substitution of duty-free chicory for colonial or foreign coffee. The Lords of the Treasury said, that Government was not hound to protect the consumer. "My Lords" said it was not their duty. The Legislature said it was. "My Lords," however, appeared on this occasion to have emitted most extraordinary views of law, finance, and public morality, upon which he would leave the House to decide whether they were right. Certain it was that from that time nothing more had been heard of prosecutions for adulterating coffee with chicory. The result of these proceedings was, as the House must have expected, a depreciation in the price of coffee, occasioned not by the state of the coffee market, but by the state of the chicory market, and a loss of revenue, which was admitted by the right hon. Baronet himself, inasmuch as he meant to do something next year towards supplying it. The loss to the revenue, supposing every pound of chicory consumed displaced a pound of coffee, would amount to 600,000 l. annually; but if every pound of chicory used displaced only half a pound of coffee, the permanent annual loss would be 300,000 l. It appeared from the returns, that although the quantity of coffee entered at the Customhouse exceeded in 1848 by 40 per cent the quantity entered in any one year subsequent to the reduction of the duty upon foreign and colonial, there had been a decline in that year of five-eighths of a million pounds weight in the total quantity entered for consumption in this country, though there had been a reduction in the price, consequent upon the reduced duty. Now, who had received the benefit of the reduction? Not the coffee grower, either in our own colonies or in foreign countries, but the chicory grower at home. The House would more fully understand the extent of the depreciation, by comparing the quantities of coffee entered for home consumption in the five ports of London, Bristol, Liverpool, Hull, and Glasgow, from the 1st of January to the 24th March, in the years 1848 and 1849, and by comparing similar returns during the same periods of the quantities of sugar so entered. As to coffee, the entries for home consumption had been in that period as follows:—

In 1848

7,424,390 lbs

1849

7,084,350

Being a decrease in two months of

340,040 lbs.

As to sugar during the same period, the entries for home consumption had been—

In 1848

1,227,447 cwts.

1849

1,296,777

Being an increase in two months of 69,330 cwts.
The results with respect to cocoa were similar; the increase during the same period having been 79,678 lbs. The decrease in the consumption of coffee could not, however, be attributed to an increased consumption of tea, for he found that it had increased only 7,352 lbs. As little could it be attributed to the amount of coffee imported during 1848, being less than in former years, for he found that the import of colonial coffee was 28,833,279 lbs. in 1844, whilst it had increased to 38,221,012 lbs. in 1848; and of foreign coffee, it was 17,689,909 lbs. in 1844, and 18,840,490 lbs. in 1848. The quantity of coffee brought into the market in 1848 was greater than in any former year, and the price less; yet the consumption had declined. The decline, indeed, so far from ceasing, appeared to become greater, as would be seen from the following comparative statement of the amounts entered for home consumption in the five ports already named, down to the 21st of April, in the years 1848 and 1849:—

In 1848 it was

9,721,618 lbs.

In 1849 it was

9,224,879

Showing a decrease of

496,739 lbs.

or in round numbers of 221 tons below the depreciated amount of last year. There must be some reason for this state of things; and he attributed it to the neglect of the right hon. Baronet in not enforcing the law prohibiting the adulteration of coffee by mixing it with chicory, he did not pretend to know what view Parliament would take of the dispensing or suspending power which was exercised by the Lords of the Treasury over the operation of the law; but he thought there should be some check upon it. The law, indeed, had been virtually repealed by the mode in which the Lords of the Treasury had addressed themselves to the Excise. It was monstrous that such a power should have existed unchecked so long; but he believed the knowledge which had been communicated of it would hereafter have a great
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effect in the country. The right hon. Baronet meant to enforce the law against parties who adulterated tea with British leaf, and so he would if any person grew tobacco in Ireland. Why should he make a distinction between those who adulterated tea, and those who adulterated coffee? Every pound of this deteriorated mixture of chicory and coffee was sold at the price which unadulterated coffee would bring, and the injustice of this system would appear the more striking when he informed the House that coffee cost 9d. or 10 d. a pound to the wholesale dealer, whereas chicory was supplied at as low as 2d. per pound. This cheap ingredient was, however, retailed to the poor and ignorant at the highest price which coffee could fetch in the market. The consequence was, that the unfair dealer was benefited and enriched at the cost of the honest trader. So far had this practice extended, that they were now beginning to deteriorate the chicory itself by mixing with it burnt bread, burnt and mouldy biscuits, burnt and ground rags, and burnt and ground rope yarn. The proportion in which chicory was used in the adulteration of coffee was stated by Mr. M'Culloch, in the supplement to his Commercial Dictionary, just published, at 12,000,000 of pounds to 36,000,000 or 37,000,000 of pounds of coffee. He believed, however, that the proportion was much greater, and that fully 14,000,000 of pounds of chicory were made use of for this purpose throughout England and Ireland. The Ceylon coffee being peculiarly delicate, was not capable of being deteriorated to the same extent as other coffee, and the consequence was, that the demand for it had decreased, and that the market had been considerably injured. [The hon. and learned Gentleman read several extracts from traders' circulars in support of his view.] In addition to the great losses which the revenue had sustained from this cause in former years, there was an additional loss in the revenue derived from the duty on coffee last year of from 40,000 l. to 46,000 l. He did not want the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer to bestow on this question all the labour that his predecessor in office, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge, had devoted to the subject of the deterioration of tobacco; but what he wanted him to do was, to compel traders to confine themselves to the sale of only one

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of these articles, and to limit them to a license either for the sale of chicory or of coffee alone. Unfortunately the coffee grower was not a foreigner, or the free-trade principles of the right hon. Baronet might induce him to interfere in his behalf. The coffee growers were colonists, and the Colonial Office afforded no protection to those whose interests were supposed to he confided to it. The most obvious course for the right hon. Baronet to pursue would be, to ascertain whether any new legislation was necessary on this question, and whether the existing law, which had been enforced down to 1832, was sufficient to meet the case. If the right hon. Gentleman did not do this, there were only three other courses open to him: first, to prohibit the growth of chicory in this country altogether; secondly, he might take off the duty of 4d. a pound, which now operated to discourage the sale of British plantation and colonial coffee; and, thirdly, he might impose an excise duty on British-grown chicory, equivalent to the amount of the customs duty on coffee. He understood that the right hon. Baronet had some intention of resorting—though not in this year—to the last-named alternative, which would impose an annoying restriction on British agriculture. Having thus briefly pointed out some of the results both to the mother country and to the colonies, of the system now in force, and which had been acted upon by successive free-trade Governments, he thought that he had shown enough to justify him in asking the House to declare, in the words of his resolution, that it viewed with serious concern and disapprobation the growing increase of this evil.
Motion made, and Question put—
"That this House views with serious concern and disapprobation the great and growing increase of the consumption of the plant Chicory in the adulteration of Coffee, contrary to Act of Parliament; such increase having been, in the opinion of this House, chiefly owing to the orders given by the Administration to the Officers of Excise not to enforce the said Act:
"That the direct results of such orders have been the fraudulent sale of ground Chicory, under the name and at the current prices of ground Coffee; a corresponding depreciation of the value and decrease in the consumption of Coffee; increased depression and distress in Ceylon and other Coffee-growing Colonies; a permanent loss of revenue to the actual amount of some hundreds of thousands of pounds annually, and which loss in the last year was augmented by the addition of about forty thousands pounds more; the prejudice of the fair dealer; discontent and disaffection in the Colonies; and the encouragement of the evil-disposed both at home and abroad to disobey Laws which must appear to them to depend upon the
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arbitrary pleasure of Administration for sanction and enforcement."
MR. BAILLIEseconded the Motion, and said he thought there had been two points raised by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Youghal, which were worthy the attention of the House: the first was, whether a great loss had not occurred to the revenue in consequence of the issue of the Treasury Minute to which he referred, and by which coffee was allowed to be adulterated by chicory; and, secondly, by what right the Chancellor of the Exchequer could issue a Treasury Minute dispensing with an Act of Parliament. It was quite clear, from the statement of his hon. and learned Friend, and from the consumption of chicory known to exist, that a great loss must have occurred to the revenue; and the fact which was mentioned by his hon. Friend respecting tobacco was a clear illustration of that point. His right hon. Friend the Member for the University of Cambridge, when he came into office, found that the right hon. Baronet who was now First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir F. Baring) had, during his administration, allowed the adulteration of tobacco to a considerable extent. It was adulterated with the leaf of the rhubarb plant; and he determined to investigate the subject. It was a difficult matter, but he succeeded, and the result was that a law was passed by which the system of adulteration was prevented, and a great evil cured. Under these circumstances, he (Mr. Baillie) considered that the subject was well worthy the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and he trusted that upon a full view of the subject he would be induced to enforce the law as it now stood, not to prevent the consumption of chicory, but to prevent the sale of chicory by dealers in coffee.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that if the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Youghal would look to the Act 3 George IV., cap. 53, he would find that a discretionary power was given to the Treasury as to enforcing its provisions or not; and that the offence it contemplated was not one against which a public informer could proceed. He entirely concurred in the doctrine laid down in one of the Treasury Minutes, that it was the duty of the Government to interfere as little as possible between the buyer and the seller. At the time the Act was passed no such thing as home-grown chicory existed, though it was extensively cultivated on the Continent, where it was

203
used, mixed with, or as a substitute for, coffee; and he understood that the use of it to a certain extent was beneficial both to the consumer and to the colonial producer, as it promoted the use of coffee. A moderate duty was then proposed to be imposed on foreign-grown chicory, when mixed with coffee, but it was found impossible to carry out such a law without establishing a most expensive and inquisitorial survey. It would have been doing what was exceedingly vexatious and annoying, with very little chance of achieving the object intended. It was not to be supposed that this question had not already engaged the attention of the Government. He could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that the Treasury had inquired as to the possibility of distinguishing chicory from coffee when mixed, and it was found to be almost an impossibility. No test could be depended upon. He had seen it tried by a solution in water, and by means of a microscope, but it was obvious that no Government would think of adopting the Quixotic experiment of sending a chemist into every coffee-seller's shop with a view to enforce the law recommended by the hon. and learned Gentleman. At all events, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not prepared to engage in such a mode of preventing frauds against the revenue. Lord Althorp, Lord Monteagle, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge, and his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, had all, while severally filling the office of Chancellor of the Exchequer, declined to re-establish an inquisitorial survey of the premises of all the coffee-dealers in England. It was said that within the last three or four months the consumption of coffee had fallen off; but, if that were so, he was not convinced that it was in consequence of the alteration made by the Treasury Minute. How did Mr. Cook account for it? In his memorial to the Lords of the Treasury he stated that the average proportion of chicory in what was sold in the London shops for coffee was estimated at one-third; and, in the manufacturing towns, it was said to be fully one-half. What further portion of pure chicory was elsewhere added to this mixture it was impossible to say; but Mr. Cook said it was a fact that those descriptions of coffee which would bear the greatest admixture of chicory, such as Costa Rica and Java, enjoyed on that account a marked preference in the market, greatly to the detriment
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of the more delicately flavoured Ceylon coffee. It might be supposed from this that the colonial coffee would be injured, and foreign coffee benefited; but what was the fact? The consumption of Ceylon coffee had increased more than any other description of coffee. In 1844 the consumption was 14,000,000lb., and in 1848 it was 30,000,000lb. He did not think that by the introduction of chicory into consumption an equal quantity of coffee had been displaced, nor did he believe that if the use of chicory were forbidden, its place would be supplied by an equal quantity of coffee. His opinion was, that the use of chicory cheapened the price, and ministered to the comforts of the poorer classes of the people. As to the loss of revenue, he did not consider that the diminution of the quantity of coffee consumed in consequence of the alteration which had been made, would materially affect the amount of duty received. The diminished consumption within the last three months was 600,000lb. or 2,400,000lb. for the year; which he did not think was a very great amount where the annual consumption was 37,000,000lb. Nevertheless this fact afforded some ground for supposing that the consumption of chicory did interfere in some degree with the consumption of coffee; and, as it was his duty to protect the revenue, it might be necessary hereafter to propose a small tax upon home-grown chicory. It would be a very serious matter to introduce an excise regulation in the cultivation of chicory. He should be most unwilling to do so, and nothing but a case of strong necessity would justify him in taking such a course. But he wished all parties interested to be warned that if the conviction should be forced upon him that it was his duty to make any such proposition, they must not be led into error by his declining to say more on that subject now. With regard to the present Motion, he would simply repeat that a stronger case must be made out before he should feel himself justified in interfering with the comforts of the lower orders of this country to the extent which that Motion invited him to do.
MR. ANSTEYhad some doubts as to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statements as to the increase in the consumption of Ceylon coffee.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid that he would read the gross returns of coffee imported from Ceylon during the last five yers. In the year

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1844 there were imported 14,000,000lbs.; in 1845, 16,000,000 lbs.; in 1846, 17,000,000lbs.; in 1847, 27,000,000lbs.; and in 1848, 30,000,000lbs. In the last three months there had been, as he had already stated, a falling-off to the amount of 600,000lbs.
SIR J. TYRELLsaid, that the last few words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer sounded to him rather ominous. The right hon. Gentleman thought it proper to warn the growers of chicory, and to put them on their guard that it might become necessary for him to impose upon them an excise duty next year. Chicory was an existing crop. He (Sir J. Tyrell) knew a farmer in his neighbourhood who had grown from twelve to fifteen acres of it, upon which he had realised in the London market 15 l. an acre. To such men the right hon. Gentleman's warning was indeed an ominous one. It was said that the chicory mixed with coffee amounted to one-third part, but there was good reason to believe that it was more likely to be one-half. Taking into account the quantity of coffee consumed, it could be easily seen how very large and important an article of consumption chicory had become. So that when the Chancellor of the Exchequer shook his head and let fall ominous words about new excise duties, it really became a question of free trade; and it seemed very hard that if English agriculturists could obtain 15 l. an acre by the growth of any article, they should be immediately stopped after all they had suffered. It behoved them to keep a sharp look out—to have a man constantly at the mast-head to see what was intended.
MR. URQUHARTsaid, that it seemed to be a case of freedom of agriculture. But the object of the present Motion was not to prevent either the growth or the consumption of chicory, but merely to arrive at the point at which chicory should be used as chicory, and not imposed upon the buyer as coffee—a point which could be arrived at simply by enforcing the law as it stood. The Motion sought to press upon the Government the execution of a law which that House had passed; and if, upon the show of any reason or expediency, the Government could defend its suspension of a law, he could not see why they (the Members of the House of Commons) should sit in that place, or pass laws at all. The Motion had been treated as if it had originated solely with his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Youghal; but such
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was not the case. It was founded upon representations and a petition, which had been presented to the House, signed by thirty firms engaged in the coffee trade. He denied that the Act of 1822, either in its construction or enactment, gave facility to the Treasury to depart from its letter. On the contrary, it left them without any option in its enforcement. The 4th Clause of the 3rd George IV., c. 53, provided that any person selling chicory or such material should take out a license, which was not to be granted to dealers in coffee. The Board of Excise was ordered to enforce the law, and he denied that it was left to the Treasury to dispense with it.
MR. M'GREGORsaid, that during his connexion with the Board of Trade, this question had been often brought before it, and he should say that he thought it would be perfectly impossible to prevent the adulteration of ground coffee, or of anything in a pulverized state. To attempt such a thing would require great and intricate machinery, and it could never be effectually prevented after all. But as to the imposition of a new excise duty, he would rather see the present duty taken off hops, than another excise duty established. To meet the falling-off in the importation of coffee and the increased consumption of chicory, he would recommend the reduction of the duty on foreign-grown coffee, so as to cheapen it to an extent that would hold out no inducement for adulteration. He believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer was quite right in asserting that the admixture of chicory improved the cheaper and inferior coffees, and that it was only the high-priced and high-flavoured foreign coffees that were injured by the adulteration.
MR. P. BENNETsaid, that the growth of chicory was a most important matter to the agriculturists; and he strongly recommended freedom being given to its production and sale.
MR. ANSTEYsaid, that his proposal was simply that the duty on colonial coffee should be taken off—that colonial coffee should be placed upon precisely the same footing as English chicory. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the contrary, proposed to raise English chicory to the position of colonial coffee. His (Mr. Anstey's) proposal was that the existing law should be enforced, and by that law the English agriculturist might grow, and the English dealer might sell, chicory, subject merely to the proviso that dealers in coffee

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should not be dealers in chicory also. The consumer might then determine for himself what proportions he would mix for use.
SIR C. M. BURRELLsaid, that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer intended to impose an excise duty upon chicory, a large quantity of which was grown for the purpose of feeding sheep, it would be a direct contravention of free-trade principles, and a gross injustice to the agriculturists, who were suffering already from the effects of free trade in another direction.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that although the question had not properly been raised in that debate, he might be permitted to say that he never had said that he thought it possible or expedient to impose a duty upon chicory grown for the use of sheep. He merely alluded to chicory when roasted for the purpose of being mixed with coffee.
The House divided:—Ayes 11; Noes 62: Majority 51.

List of the AYES.

Blackstone, W. S.

Stuart, Lord D.

Boldero, H. G.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Urquhart, D.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Wodehouse, E.

Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B.

TELLERS.

Miles, P. W. S.

Anstey, T. C.

Mailings, J. R.

Baillie, H.

List of the NOES.

Abdy, T. N.

Hindley, C.

Aglionby, H. A.

Jackson, W.

Barnard, E. G.

Langston, J. H.

Bennet, P.

M'Gregor, J.

Blake, M. J.

Milner, W. M. E.

Brackley, Visct.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Brown, W.

O'Connell, J.

Charteris, hon. F.

O'Connor, F.

Clay, J.

Osborne, R.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Packe, C. W.

Cobden, R.

Palmerston, Visct.

Compton, H. C.

Parker, J.

Drummond, H.

Pigott, F.

Duncan, G.

Pinney, W.

Duncombe, hon. O.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Dunne, F. P.

Portal, M.

Ellis, J.

Pugh, D.

Evans, J.

Robinson, G. R.

Ewart, W.

Shafto, R. D.

Forster, M.

Smith, J. B.

Fox, W. J.

Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.

French, F.

Stanton, W. H.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Thompson, Col.

Granger, T. C.

Thornely, T.

Hallyburton, Ld. J. F. G.

Walmsley, Sir J.

Harris, R.

Walter, J.

Hawes, B.

Willyams, H.

Henry, A.

Wilson, J.

Heyworth, L.

Wilson, M.

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Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

TELLERS.

Hill, Lord M.

Tufnell, H.

PUBLIC EXPENDITURE AND TAXATION.
MR. DRUMMONDrose to move the appointment of a Committee to consider the public expenditure and the existing system of taxation. He said, that he rose with the greatest hesitation and embarrassment) which every one felt in rising to address the House when he had reason to suppose that the minds of hon. Members were preoccupied with a subject very different from that upon which he was about to speak. Having lately read The Memoirs of P. P.; or, the Importance of a Man to Himself, some hon. Members might be disposed to think that he was exaggerating the importance of his own Motion, and that it was his duty rather to pay deference to the House, and forego the discussion in favour of the Bill which was to follow (the Marriage Bill). But, whatever might be the case in that House, he believed that throughout the country there was a far greater number of persons who desired to be exempted from taxation, than there was of persons who wished to marry their wives' sisters. He believed, moreover, that upon this and similar questions had turned no mere matters of ephemeral politics, but the stability or overthrow of every throne in Europe, as well as the stability of our own. At the commencement of last Session he ventured to express his surprise that Her Majesty's Ministers had not come down to the House and proposed themselves some plan of finance to relieve the taxation, adequate to the universal demand which was made for it; or, if they were unable to devise such a plan themselves, that they had not sought the assistance of a Select Committee of the House to aid them. His surprise was founded partly upon the peculiar circumstances under which they had been appointed to office, partly on account of the great agitation that there was then in the country on the subject of taxation, and partly, also, upon the expectations derived from the recollection of their speeches when out of office—which expectations those speeches were intended to excite. At the close of the Session he expressed his surprise that they still persevered in refusing to give any intimation of their having any such plan in contemplation; and he also said that if they did not do so at the commencement of this Session, he and those who thought with him would be

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driven to look to some independent Member to take up the matter himself, and call upon the independent Members of the House to follow him, not for the sake of making ephemeral speeches, but with the determination to draw from the House a plain and intelligible declaration, that the country might know what they had to expect at their hands, and also to lay down a broad and intelligible principle, not only for the guidance of the present Ministers, but for every other body of gentlemen whom the Queen might call upon in future times to administer the affairs of the country. He begged pardon for these egotistical reminiscences, but he was anxious in limine to take away the prejudice from the minds of hon. Members that he had undertaken, uncalled for, a position which had been better left to abler heads and in abler hands. But the House would perceive that there was no probability of this question being undertaken at all unless he or some person like him undertook it. His belief was—and he did not think it could be contradicted from history—that there never was a systematic and successful rebellion against the ruling class of any nation except from the pressure of the higher. He had used the word "higher" advisedly, because it never had mattered anything whether the ruling class took the form of an absolute or a limited monarchy, or a republic, or anything else. As feudal violence went out, fiscal exactions grew up; and the people had been—he did not like to say plundered, but they certainly had had taken from them that which ought not to have been taken. It was Louis the XIV.'s extravagant wars and the puerilities of the palace of Versailles which caused the distress and misery which broke out in the days of his great-grandson, and swept everything away. In the same manner had our national debt begun with the wars of the House of Hanover, and had gone on increasing up to the present time, until it had reached an amount which would have appeared fabulous could it have been foretold to those who began the debt originally. If we had not the manliness to look our position in the face and dare to grapple with it now, it would assuredly be forced upon our attention in unquiet times, and when the agitation of it would be accompanied by the many aggravations which always attended the outbreaks of infuriated mobs. He was much tempted to dwell longer upon this part of his subject, though he should not do so; because it was only as the Legislature were
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impressed equally with himself as to the imminence of the danger, that they could ever be induced to look for measures adequate to the emergency. If they shut their ears to the voice of history; if they shut their eyes to the events that had passed around them during the last fifty years; if they would suppose that we had a charter from heaven to preserve us from the fate which had attended every other nation, while we were pursuing the same course; if they deferred taking those steps which alone could avert the evil, there was no help for it. If they would sit with selfish and listless in-difference, in the hope that things would last out the term of their official existence, there was no course left for those whose boast it was to be British statesmen, but who appeared to have all their faculties obscured by official routine—who seemed to be bound hand and foot by red tape—but to wait till another wave came of that deluge of democracy which had already overwhelmed every Government of Europe, and which had, more than we were inclined to admit, come upon ourselves. He did not say that any measures which could be recommended would save them; but if they would part with their selfishness, if they would "be just and fear not," if they would be determined to relieve the poor, if they would so feel for them as to resolve that they should be relieved, that might, under God's blessing, be the means of lengthening their tranquillity; but if they did grapple with this question, they must lay hold of it honestly. They must not take it up merely for the purpose of amusing the people with delusive hopes, leaving them afterwards to writhe with mortification at the delusion which had been practised upon them. They must endeavour to be honest, and to be honest they must revise every part of our taxation system; they must be prepared to part with many favourite associations, with many prejudices, and many long cherished habits. His Motion was for leave to go into a Committee of the whole House in order to move certain resolutions. Upon this subject the language of some of the petitions on the table expressed his views with considerable truth—
"That all classes of productive industry laboured under serious depression, arising from the great reductions in the profits of capital and labour, and from the diminished consumption caused by the excessive pressure of local and national taxation."
He did not pledge himself to those words.

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but this was the substance of his views. He held it to be a sound principle that we ought to pay for protection in proportion to the value of that which was to he protected, and also in proportion to the social condition which we filled. According to a calculation he made on a former occasion, he would suppose there were 30,000,000 people in this kingdom, and take 5,000,000 as the number of families, and he would say that there was a million of these families in the greatest misery and distress; there was another million consuming twice as much as the first; a third consuming three times as much as those below them; a fourth consuming four times as much; and a fifth million consuming five times as much as all the rest. He would say that the taxation should be removed from the lowest class altogether, and that it should be laid upon the other classes in the same way as the assessed taxes were laid on at present—that was, make them mount up progressively. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER dissented.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer, he observed, shook his head. That shake of the right hon. Gentleman's head reminded him of an anecdote which Lord Ashburton once told him. 'His noble Friend, then a Member of the House of Commons, was sitting next to Mr. Hunt, when some one talked of laying all the taxes on the rich, and none upon the poor; Mr. Hunt said that that would do very well on the hustings, but it would not do in that House, because if they wanted to raise millions they must tax millions. He (Mr. Drummond) defied them to lay on a tax that would not press upon labour indirectly, and therefore they should, by every means in their power, endeavour to relieve that class. Let this be their systematic object, although it would not follow they would be able to effect it. But, more than that, he understood that, upon a Motion being made upon this subject in the time of Lord Althorp, that noble Lord said, "Oh, that would be confiscation." Now, on a question relative to "short horns," Lord Althorp's opinion might be regarded as final, but on matters connected with finance it was not worth more than that of any other individual. It was obviously of very little importance to the day labourer who sat in the House of Lords. In an article which appeared some time ago in the Edinburgh Review, the eloquent writer, Mr. Macaulay, he believed, said, "It is a very poor consolation to the
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man who has had no dinner, and will not have any supper, that the Queen cannot make war without the consent of Parliament." The privileges of the constitution were exceedingly valuable to those who profited by them; but to the vast mass of mankind they were wholly inoperative. Gentlemen would bear with him when he said that he did not agree in the assertion often made on the other side of the House, that taxes were made by the landed interest, who commanded the majority of votes there, intentionally to press on the humbler classes. The reverse had most clearly been proved to be the fact by the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and no one had attempted to answer his statement. But it was said in the same way, that, as unintentionally there was an indirect tendency in masters always to combine against their labourers, so there was unconsciously to themselves an indirect tendency in that House not to make taxation equal; that was, to make it equal in a certain sense, but unequal in another sense—equal in the sense of a poll tar, which was the most unequal of all taxes, for it could not be denied that to take 1l. from the man who had only 10 l. was to take more from him than it would be to take 10 l. from one who had 100 l., or to take 100 l. from one who had 1,000 l., or to take 1,000 l. from one who had 10,000 l. It ought, then, constantly to be the intention of the House in all their modes of taxation to relieve the very lowest, and to press on the very highest; for, if that intention were not cherished, the involuntary effect would be that taxation would press more on the lower classe than on Members of the House. And this was the truth of what had constantly been repeated by the hon. Member for Finsbury, a Gentleman whose protracted absence he regretted, that the poor would never have justice done them in that House till they sent so many Members to Parliament. He (Mr. Drummond) would also propose a resolution in Committee, that in order to alleviate the weight of those burdens which pressed on the people, it was necessary to levy all taxes, stamps, and other duties on the same principle as the assessed taxes. Their object for some time past had been to reduce prices to the Continental level, or rather, to the level at which they were before the war. He was not going to find fault; he believed they would come to that level in despite of anything that might be said or

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done. He did not believe it possible to keep peace on the Continent long, and maintain a difference of prices between this and other countries. It now remained that they should have the benefit of what they had done. They would have the whole expenses of the Government back to what they were in 1794—neither one shilling less or more. It could not be said of this as it had been of the plans of the hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire, that they were arbitrarily fixing the amount of their defences; because there might be other wars, and nobody knew what. On the contrary, the whole salaries paid for the public service had been raised on the express plea that commodities had arisen. Contracts had been made in the Hampshire unions for mutton at 3½d. per pound; and they must have salaries at 3½d. too. They would have the free-trade system carried out. He often hoard, rather out of doors than in that House, language made use of towards official people, as if there were a disposition to mulct them of their salaries for some official misdemeanour. He adjured all hon. Gentlemen to bear in mind that it would be no pleasure to him to propose any alteration whatever in any person's comforts and habits. Some one spoke of an Act of Parliament to give confidence to Ireland. What a blessed Act of Parliament would that be! If he could only frame an Act of Parliament which should have the effect of giving 10,000 l. to every Gentleman who heard him, he would be only too happy. But the question was one of necessity. Distress might be past endurance; and he wanted Parliament to relieve those who suffered, that they might not be forced to relieve themselves. He did not like to go into detail. That would be done better in Committee. But he had a great many instances to adduce of increase of salary. One thing there was which ought to be put an end to—namely, the whole civil department of the Army and Navy. He alluded particularly to the extraordinary sums thrown away for basins and vessels, for which they had not anything to do. Why should they have persons in the public service who had nothing to do but twirl their thumbs? He would say to those Gentlemen who had never been Members of a Government, that the noble Lord himself at the head of the Government, who was pretty determined when he took anything in his head, could not reduce salaries unless the House forced him. The noble Lord had no alternative but to
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carry into effect a resolution of that House, and unless the House armed him with a resolution he could do nothing. There had been many debates on the colonies. There never was an abler man at the head of that department, nor one more active or more zealous in the discharge of his duty, than Earl Grey. The colonies were, notwithstanding, in the condition he (Mr. Drummond) had ever apprehended. There was a report on the table presented by Sir G. Murray, when at the head of that department, and signed by his under-secretaries, Mr. W. Horton, and Mr. W. Hay, recommending that the colonies should be governed by a board, and calling on the House to sanction the appointment of one. Adam Smith said colonies would always be an expense to the mother country, and nothing but pride had prevented Parliament from giving them up long ago. If they had any pride of that kind it was a very foolish pride. The mother country ought to act towards her colonies in the same dignified way as parents to their children; and if any one's offspring were enabled to establish themselves well in the world, and independently of their father's house, the parent ought rather to rejoice than jealously keep his child in perpetual pupilage. If a child were not able to support itself, it should ever be welcome to its father's protection. So of the colonies. It might be of advantage if Parliament would facilitate emigration, send to the colonies at least all those unhappy young persons who were educated in unions, and give grants of land and passages in idle ships. A society with which his hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire was connected, and which professed to facilitate emigration, exacted too hard conditions. The only thing necessary to qualify a man for emigration was an empty pocket and an empty stomach. The colonies would become profitable to this country by becoming better customers than they were; but let not the colonies lay the flattering unction to their souls that, in the majority of instances, they could ever become the sugar manufacturers for England: the cane was indigenous in very few places. By forced prices people had been enabled to cultivate it in spots where it lasted only for one year. Consequently, on all grounds between those where it was perennial, and those where it would not grow at all, it was simply forced by protection, which was, in fact, an expensive way of manufacturing, which the colonists might rest assured was gone for

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ever. In like manner it would be impossible to restore a bread-tax again. He had no patience with the cruel heartlessness of those impostors who, taking advantage of the distress of the tenant farmers at the present time, ran about the country trying to persuade them that their prosperity would be restored by a fixed duty of 5s. He had never taken any part in that bread-tax agitation. He saw, or thought he saw, it was nothing but a contest between two egotisms, two selfishnesses—between the selfishness of the landlord, and the selfishness of the cotton lord. He had no sympathy with either. Not that he was against all selfishness. If a man had gout in the stomach, he would wish to get it rather in his toe. The toe said it was very selfish in the stomach to wish the gout so transferred. These were contending selfishnesses, but the one was a destructive and the other a conservative selfishness. It was much better to have the gout in one's toe than in one's stomach. The imposition of an ad valorem duty on everything passing between France and England had been proposed to Mr. Huskisson by Baron Louis, the then French Minister of Finance. Mr. Huskisson and Mr. (afterwards Lord) Wallace were anxious for the measure, but Ministers were unfortunately against it. So long as a revenue must be raised, so long must a Custom-house exist. The evil of monopoly was, that mask it as they would, it was, in point of fact, taking something for somebody from everybody else—something which was put into the pocket of the person protected. There was a constant tendency in all masters to combine against their workmen. The labourer was no match for the capitalist. The capitalist could command any market that he pleased, but the labourer could command no market but his next-door neighbour. That was the ground on which the Crown, the common parent, ought to stretch forth its hand to protect those who were in fact, whatever they might be in law, adscripti glebœ against the capitalist; in other words, Parliament ought to encourage, by those Custom-house duties, the home market. [Mr. SPOONER: Hear!] Not so fast; he was not thinking of the hon. Gentleman. When the capitalist disposed of his produce to another, he put in action another mass of capital. If the other mass of capital against which he exchanged it was in the home market, it employed another mass of capital in the home market;
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in other words, it secured employment to the home labourer instead of the foreign labourer; but there would be no restoration of the corn tax. He should propose a resolution also on that subject. There was an outcry against extravagance by people who were guilty of extravagance themselves. There were measures which the Government would not have adopted except to please the people. Why did Parliament abandon the Post Office duty? To please the bankers and merchants of the country. Then large sums were thrown away on building palaces for thieves, because, instead of flogging thieves, people would teach them to spell; and, instead of hanging murderers, people would put marks upon them, and set them to read the Whole Duty of Man. The admirers of the fine arts were gratified by the purchase of statues and pictures. He would not say one word against all those things if they were overflowing with wealth; but when the question really at stake was the public peace, he must say, that as it would be improper, nay, immoral, for any individual to waste his money on those things, it was equally so in a nation. Although afraid to meddle with the word "Ireland," he must observe, that it was by a different management of Ireland that they might obtain the most immediate relief. If they were to govern it as a savage country they would put it under martial law, try offences at a drumhead court-martial, and get rid of all that foolish paraphernalia of judges, juries, learned counsel, and he knew not how many people, when they were incapable of finding any one man guilty who told them with his own mouth he was guilty, as every one thought him but the judges and jury. If, on the other hand, they were pleased to treat Ireland like a civilised country, then they ought to make the lords-lieutenant of counties responsible for the preservation of the peace within their respective jurisdictions. He supposed there were people there fit to be magistrates. Let the old Saxon law be re-enacted which fined every barony for every act of outrage committed within its limits; let that law be extended to the case of every man who was found starved, and leave the parties to the result. If those measures were taken, a portion of the army might be disbanded, and the country would obtain immediate relief to that extent. It was not his intention to propose any resolution on that subject, because it was a matter which had better be left in

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the hands of the Executive. After all, however, but little would have been done in the way of relieving the springs of industry from the great pressure upon them if Parliament omitted to deal with the national debt. It would be all very well to shift the burden of taxation as he proposed, and to make the reduction of salaries which he suggested; but the effect of those measures would be more of a moral than of a material nature. Their adoption would show the people that there existed a determination on the part of the higher classes of every grade to make sacrifices for their benefit; but was it possible that those whom he was addressing could believe that the national debt was to remain for ever? or were they afraid to look at it because it was so monstrous—this 800,000,000 l. of capital, and 28,000,000 l. a year of interest? This debt, observe, began at the same time at which the miseries of France commenced. It went on increasing through the reigns of the Georges (perhaps we incurred it as a punishment for turning off our lawful King), until, at length, it reached an amount that imposed a burden on this country greater than any people ever endured before. It might be said that endeavours had been made to alleviate the pressure of this burden by spreading it over a greater mass of the population. That was all very true, and the argument would be worth something if the amount of taxes, and the value of the capital from which those taxes were raised, always went together, but, unfortunately, that was not so. Take, for instance, the case of manufactures during the time of a panic; persons might be heard to say, "Such a man must be rich; he works four mills," when, in fact, he might be losing money by every one of them. What could be more absurd than to say that a man who had a large estate at this moment must be rich, when it was notorious that farmers must give four sheep instead of one, ten fleeces instead of one, ten loads of wheat instead of one, to pay the same amount of taxes as they paid a few years ago? It was evident, then, that the value of capital was not necessarily commensurate with the amount of taxation paid. To do them justice it must be stated that every Minister who added to the debt, confessed that unless something were done to lighten its pressure, it must ultimately ruin the country. This would be apparent to those who took the trouble to consult the Parliamentary history, or memoirs of public
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men, and the point was accurately set forth in Sir John Sinclair's History of the Public Revenue. When Pitt was adding to the debt, the promise was continually in his mouth that he would obtain indemnity for the past, and security for the future. The Birmingham school were right in alleging that the pressure of the debt had been immensely aggravated by the Bill of 1819; but the Birmingham school was not quite so wise then as it was now. The man in the House who understood the question best at the time was Mr. Ricardo, and he understood it very badly. Mr. Ricardo thought that the whole amount of the depreciation of the currency was the difference between the internal and external price of gold; but he did not understand that the whole of the currency, not paper only, but gold, had been depreciated, and that the only way to arrive at the real amount of depreciation was to measure the currency by all articles of raw produce for many years preceding. It was too late to discuss those points now; the question was settled. If any person were, to-morrow, to come from California with 800,000,000 l. of gold, and pay it into the Exchequer—[The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Hear, hear!]—the Government would able to remit the mass of taxation; but it was very doubtful whether the disturbance which would be caused throughout our whole social system would not be a greater evil than "bearing the ills we have." To be beneficial, the reduction of the debt should be gradual. What was the evil of the debt at this moment? It was that an enormous mass of capital was locked up and remained unproductive. There were but two ways of turning capital into a country, either by digging it out of the soil—a thing which we had long practised, although the Irish had never yet heard of it—or by letting free capital that was locked up. What was capital wanted for? The manufacturer wanted capital at a low rate of interest to extend his business, for an extension of business was essential to all branches of industry, whether manufacturing or agricultural, in order to balance diminished profits. The mass of business had immensely increased, whilst profits had decreased. The landlords wanted capital to lower the rate of interest; the farmers wanted capital to extend their business. Supply capital, and you raise the marketable value of all things. Now, look at the national debt. Everybody said he would like it to be paid, but asked

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whence the money was to come from. There were but two classes in the country—rich and poor. Much could not be got out of the latter, and, therefore, the money must come from the rich. Was it intended ever to pay the debt? We had, he believed, gone on with the debt so long, that it never crossed the mind of any one that it was ever to he paid; and the end would be, as Cobbett said long ago, that it would blow them up. If the debt was to be reduced, the reduction must be gradual. What he would propose to do would be to empower the Government to buy up the public annuities as they might be offered in the market. He would raise the sum required for that purpose—which would not be a very large one at first—partly by a tax upon property, and partly by the equalisation of the land-tax. By operating in this manner there never would be a glut of offers—so to speak—in the market. If an attempt had been made to carry out this or any similar measure some years ago, the consequence would have been that capital would have gone into French railways or Spanish bonds, or nobody knew what; but now not a shilling would go in that way. The operation would always be in the hands of the Executive, and there would never be more annuities thrown into the market than could be profitably disposed of. He called upon those who felt the importance of financial questions to go into Committee, where such subjects could be discussed; for in that House it was impossible to discuss them. He called upon all who did not profess to be financial reformers merely as a mask to cover attacks upon the constitution of the country not to set up a dogged opposition to everything which did not exactly square with their views, but to go into Committee, where the whole subject could be properly considered. Above all he prayed those Gentlemen in that assembly who knew something about the science of Government, and who alone were capable of carrying it into practice, not to be persuaded that it was impossible to relieve the country in the way he proposed merely because it had not crossed their official experience, and they were unable to find any trace of such a proposition in the records of their offices. Let it not be imagined that the question would end with that debate, for there was no other subject which could be discussed within those walls in which the people at large took so much interest, or upon which the tranquillity of the empire so much depended.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That this House do resolve itself into a Committee, to consider the Public Expenditure and the existing system of Taxation, and how far both may be revised, with a view to relieve the pressure upon the industry of the Country."
MR. URQUHARTseconded the Motion. Instead of following out the newfangled system of modern times, which had been devised for no other purpose than to increase Ministerial power, it would be far better to return to the old practice. He had opposed the free-trade policy, as it was called, because it was imperfect and one-sided. There ought to have been free trade in gold as well as in corn. He had no expectation of the Motion being carried, still, he thought that good would arise out of the discussion. He rejoiced that the proposition had come from the Opposition side of the House, because it was in accordance with the old Tory principles of Government. The Whigs were the first to impose taxes on trade, and to set up what was called the monetary system. All the abuses of which the country now complained were introduced by the Whigs, at and subsequently to what they called their "glorious revolution." Before that period the taxes, few as they were, were placed upon those who could best bear them. As to the national debt, it was the consequence of Ministers entering into war-producing treaties without the sanction of Parliament.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERadmitted that if the hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the present Motion had set out with the intention of making an entertaining speech, in which he might give utterance to opinions of every shade, from Jacobitism to Socialism, he had gained his object, although it was to be regretted that the House was prevented from proceeding to the discussion of a measure upon which it was important that there should be a decision. If the House should show any disposition to go into Committee upon the manifold subjects to which the hon. Member for West Surrey had drawn attention, he warned hon. Gentlemen that there was work marked out in the resolution sufficient not only to employ the attention of a Committee of that House, but to engage the attention of Parliament for an entire Session. There was, indeed, hardly a subject which could come under the consideration of the House of Commons which the hon. Gentleman did not propose to include in

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this inquiry. He had shortly taken down the topics touched upon by the hon. Gentleman, and would allude to them in the order which he had himself adopted. The hon. Member, after administering a lecture to the House upon selfishness and injustice, and upon the necessity of getting rid of all associations, had in the first place proposed the adoption of a system of taxation, which should mount up progressively. Now, as to whether the hon. Member meant by that a system of graduated taxation, the House was left in the dark. Sir W. Ingleby, some years ago, had made a proposal to the House, whereby Dukes, Marquesses, and Esquires, were to be subjected to a graduated scale of taxation, according to their rank; but the proposal was not received with much favour. Then, after ridiculing an opinion expressed by Mr. Hunt, that, in order to raise millions, you must tax the millions, the hon. Gentleman said it was impossible to impose taxation which should not press upon the millions. The hon. Member stated, that the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire had refuted the assertion that the landlords of this country were guilty of selfishness, or that they imposed a system of taxation for their own exclusive benefit; but the hon. Member for West Surrey now said that the tendency of our legislation was to oppress the labourers. The hon. Gentleman then proposed to move a resolution for the reduction of all salaries to the scale in force previous to the war. His hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had given notice of a similar Motion. [Colonel SIBTHORP: Hear, hear!] But it would not be very wise to grant that Motion; and he would tell the hon. and gallant Colonel why. It would be a most extravagant thing to do; and the effect of the alteration would be to increase rather than to reduce the amount of incomes. The hon. and gallant Colonel might stare, but the fact would be so. For instance, the salary attached to the office of an hon. Colleague of his (the Secretary of State near him) was 6,000 l. before the war, now it was only 5,000 l. The official salary of the President of the Council was 2,000 l. at the present moment; before the war it was 4,000 l. He doubted, therefore, whether any change in salaries would tend to economy. With reference to the offer of the hon. Member for West Surrey of 10,000 l. a year to Members of that House, all he could say was, that it was a tempting proposal, if it were possible, to receive that amount
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of salary, and have nothing to do for it. As far as his own office was concerned, the salary before the war was higher than it was at this moment. The hon. Gentleman next proposed to sweep away the civil service in connexion with the military department; but that question had already engaged the attention of a Committee of that House, and it would be a gross waste of time to have two investigations into the same matter going on at the same period. He would also introduce a system of half-salaries into the colonies. The House had already had two Motions upon the colonies during the Session, by the hon. Members for Inverness and Berwickshire; and notice of two other Motions had been given by the hon. Members for Southwark and Sheffield, and he did not think it desirable to open up another general discussion upon that subject. The hon. Member next advocated a large system of emigration and free passage. That might be a right measure; but it certainly was not an economical one. The hon. Member said, that hard terms must not be imposed upon the emigrants; that all that was required was an empty mouth and empty stomach. Now, the colonists would not much like that. What the colonists wanted were skilled labourers, and not men whose only characteristic was an empty stomach. A measure of that kind, therefore, would be neither economical to this country, nor advantageous to the colonies. After dealing with the colonies generally, the hon. Member came to the sugar colonies, contending that they could produce sugar no longer, but scouting the notion of restoring any protection to them. I hope and believe that the hon. Gentleman is wrong in his anticipations of their future production. The sixth proposition of the hon. Gentleman embraced the bread-tax. What the precise nature of the resolution of the hon. Gentleman as to this was to be did not appear; but the hon. Gentleman discarded the notion of reimposing the duty on corn. The general question of protection, upon which the hon. Gentleman had touched, would open up a wide field for discussion, upon which he must be excused from embarking. The hon. Gentleman next referred to the penny postage; and here he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) desired to remove a misapprehension as to what had fallen from him on a previous occasion on this subject. What he had stated was, that between 1839 and 1840 the number

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of letters had increased from one million and a half to three millions, and that the number of letters had doubled in six years. The number of letters was now quadrupled to what it was at the commencement of the penny post system. The merchants and shopkeepers of this country were not the only parties who benefited by this system; but it extended its influence to the community at large. Then the hon. Member objected to the improved prison discipline of modern times, and regretted the days of hanging and whipping. He supposed he would propose a resolution to that effect; but the hon. Member would probably not find many Members to agree with him in his views on this subject. The hon. Member, who almost appeared to think that the public debt was a just punishment upon us for the crime of getting rid of James II., would, by his resolutions, open a pretty wide field of discussion relative to the currency, and the amount of depreciation which it had undergone since the war—matters which would very well of themselves occupy the House for three or four-nights. The strangest proposition of the hon. Member had reference to Ireland: he would fine every barony in that country for every case of starvation that occurred. The hon. Member then touched upon the public debt and the currency, but both of those were questions of far too wide a range to be discussed in the manner proposed. The hon. Member who had seconded the Motion bad complained that we had not free trade in gold, and the hon. Member for West Surrey went on to state that the public debt was so much capital locked up in this country. Now, he could not understand that statement. If the hon. Member alluded to past expenditure, the money had been spent long ago; and the expression of locked-up capital was hardly applicable to capital which had been spent. He had now gone through the thirteen topics to which the hon. Member had referred. The hon. Gentleman proposed, in addition, that other hon. Members should add other subjects for discussion in lieu of those of his suggestion, to which they should object. [Mr. WILSON: It's a programme for half a Session.] The hon. Member also referred to the necessity of a revision of taxation. Now, it seemed to be forgotten that year by year there was a progressive revision of taxation. From the peace downwards, that revision had been going on, the effect
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of which had been to remove from the consumer and the manufacturer a large amount of taxation. Leaving out of the question the property tax and corn tax, it appeared that since 1815, upwards of 30,000,000 l. of taxes had been remitted. The produce of the Customs duties in 1845 was 20,700,000 l., and last year they were 22,593,976 l., showing an increase, within the last four years, of upwards of 1,893,976 l.; and yet, in the course of these years there had been remitted upon the customs alone no less a sum than 4,681,000 l. This was irrespective of the corn duties, which he left out of the question. The general tendency of the legislation of the House since the peace downwards till the present time, had been to give relief from those taxes that interfered either with the employment or the general consumption by the people. The hon. Gentleman had reproached the Government for not fulfilling its promises of reductions, made before it came into power. Now, in the first place, he had made no such promises; and in the next, since they had acceded to office, they had effected reductions to the extent of two millions and a quarter within the last two years; and he thought that a pretty good proof that they had not been regardless of the necessity of effecting such reductions as the interests and safety of the country justified. But, returning to this Motion for a Committee, he thought it would be a mere waste of valuable public time, which was urgently required for more practical objects of legislation, and he, therefore, called upon the House to resist what he believed to be a most unnecessary Motion.
MR. SPOONERdid not consider that the House was bound to go into the Committee with all the views entertained by the hon. Member, or to enter into all the subjects adverted to by him. The question was whether they would resolve themselves into a Committee to consider the public expenditure and the existing system of taxation, and how far both may be revised, with a view to relieve the pressure upon the industry of the country. How could any Member of that House refuse to go into such a Committee, and answer for his vote to his constituents? Was any one of the great interests of this country flourishing at the present moment? Let the House look to the state of the agricultural interest. Landlords were receiving little or no rent, tenants were making no profits,

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and had no money to pay their labourers, many of whom were without employment and were starving. It was said that the labourers had now cheap bread; but what was the use of giving them cheap bread if they took away their means of purchasing it? The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that he had reduced the public expenditure; but if he (Mr. Spooner) had read the returns correctly, the public expenditure in the year 1842 was about 51,000,000 l., and at the present moment it was between 53,000,000 l. and 54,000,000 l. The right hon. Gentleman claimed credit for having reduced the taxes during his period of office; but if the Government had increased the expenditure and reduced the taxation, they must have increased the public debt. The right hon. Gentleman said that salaries were no greater now than during the war; but hon. Members must know that it was impossible for their constituents to bear that amount of taxation which they had paid when the country was in a more flourishing condition. But the fact was that a great increase in some salaries had taken place. The Master General of the Ordnance in the year 1796 received 1,500 l.; he veas now paid 3,000 l.; the Surveyor General was then paid 825 l., and now 1,200 l.; the Storekeeper used to receive 965 l., he now was paid 1,200 l.; the Treasurer and Clerk formerly received 585 l., but now 1,200 l.; and the salary of the Secretary, which was then 557 l., was now 1,600 l. He was sure the great majority of that House would agree with him when he said that a subject of that kind could not be so conveniently discussed in that House as in a Committee. In the House, the superior debating powers of some hon. Gentlemen opposite placed other very useful Members of that House at a great disadvantage; but in a Committee there would be a much better opportunity and means of eliciting truth, and he should vote for the Motion of his hon. Friend, because he thought that they ought to have a Committee to investigate details. His hon. Friend, he was quite sure, had no wish to do anything but that which was perfectly fair and just—no wish but to proceed calmly and quietly in the process of removing or lessening fiscal burdens. If they told him that Parliament had no power to administer relief, he would say that they had better not proclaim that to the world, for it would be abandoning their highest function to admit that they could not devise anything for the
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relief of the country in its present circumstances.
SIR J. TYRBLLsaid, he would not have risen to address the House at all on that occasion had it not been for the remark of the hon. Member for West Surrey, that those who had been attending the meetings which had of late taken place throughout the country were agricultural impostors, when they spoke of attempting to restore protective duties on the import of foreign corn. Now, though he (Sir J. Tyrell) did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the subject of finance, yet he must say he thought he had gone far to show that the hon. Member for Surrey was a financial impostor. He understood that hon. Member to have called the gentlemen who had been recently meeting in his own county and speaking in favour of protection, a mass of impostors. He regretted to say that he (Sir J. Tyrell) had felt it to be his duty to attend similar meetings in the county he had the honour to represent; and, however lightly the Manchester school or any other school might think of such matters, he had no hesitation in saying, that, so far as his own county was concerned, they had given all the free-trade Members that were connected with it or its boroughs Parliamentary notice to quit. The borough of Harwich had been the only place they had been unable to touch; but there was now a great reaction in that neighbourhood; and one gentleman of great influence there had permitted him (Sir J. Tyrell) to state that his sentiments on free trade had undergone an unequivocal alteration, so that he (Sir J. Tyrell) had now to give the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control, the Member for Harwich, also, notice to quit. The hon. Member for West Surrey called them impostors, because they thought they would get back protection; but with reference to the present Motion of the hon. Member himself, of however grave a character he might consider it, he must say, after the way in which it had been handled by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he did not think that it would sustain for the hon. Member that character for good sense and discretion he had hitherto possessed in that House. The hon. Member, too, had shown much levity in the course of his speech on many matters of serious importance, and on many others had failed to make out his position, and particularly with reference to the colonies;

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in dealing with which part of the subject he went so far as to say, that, as regarded such colonies as were powerful and able to get along by themselves, he would let them go and be no longer a burden on this country; whilst the weaker colonies—those that were burdensome to us—The would support and maintain. The hon. Gentleman was also very inconsistent: he said he was anxious to increase the marketable value of land; but he (Sir J. Tyrell), although he had listened with great attention, found that the hon. Gentleman utterly failed to show how that was to be done. [Laughter on the free-trade benches.] He saw that this seemed "nuts" to the hon. Member for the West Riding; but, though Gentlemen might smile at the subject, after all the thousands that had been spent and advanced for drainage and other improvements in Ireland, still the problem of how the land was to be profitably cultivated amidst the starving thousands, remained just where it was before. He could tell the hon. Gentleman who made the accusation of "agricultural impostors," that he (Sir J. Tyrell had, again and again stated in that House, usque ad nauseam, that unless it could be shown that it was advantageous—not to the agricultural interest merely, but to all classes of the community—he would have utterly repudiated the idea of protection altogether; and he entertained the same feeling still. On the whole, the hon. Member had so much disappointed him as to the question he had brought forward, that, though the hon. Member for Warwickshire had intimated his intention to support him, he could not himself give his confidence to a Gentleman who had called those impostors who attempted to restore protection to British against foreign corn. He considered that the hon. Member for Surrey had entirely failed to make out his case, and, therefore, he could not accompany the hon. Member for Warwickshire into the lobby in favour of the hon. Gentleman's Motion.
MR. MILNER GIBSONsaid, that the words of the hon. Member's Motion were perfectly unexceptionable; but when he came to couple that Motion with the speech which the House had just heard, he felt somewhat at a loss to see how he could support any such proposition. He professed himself utterly unwilling to give any sanction to the doctrines which the hon. Member had propounded to the House; he could not vote under his leadership for the appointment of any Committee, for he felt
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that in doing so he should be very liable to be misunderstood. For example, he could not support a high rate of postage, and many other matters which the hon. Member strenuously recommended. There were also many opinions expressed by the hon. Member relating to capital and labour to which he (Mr. Gibson) could not subscribe; at the same time, he by no means wished to be understood as placing any obstacle in the way of a revision and a reduction of the public expenditure. Nevertheless, he saw many objections to coming to any vote upon the present question; and though he would not go the length of his right hon Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he thought the Motion of the hon. Member for West Surrey had much better not be put to the House; and, therefore, he should more the previous question.
MR. COBDENseconded the Amendment.
MR. PLUMPTREobserved, that it was not his intention to vote for the previous question, nor could he agree with the hon. Member for Warwickshire in voting for the Motion of the hon. Member for West Surrey. The speech which had accompanied that Motion—and a Motion, allow him to say, on a very serious subject—had treated matters of the highest importance with a degree of levity of which he could by no means approve, and which, he regretted to say, had also been followed up in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Now, he must take leave to say, that this was by no means a time, nor was that at all the place, for levity—when their workhouses were becoming full of ablebodied labourers—whilst so many were out of employment altogether, and those that were employed were working for one-third less wages than they had formerly obtained—whilst whale families were in a state of the greatest distress and misery, and ruin was threatening them from every side—whilst they were breaking' the fortunes, nay, the hearts of their West India proprietors, and destroying the prospects of their shipbuilders—whilst so great a portion of their home population was driven to the verge of destitution and ruin, in order that they might carry out their one-sided system of free trade—surely such was not a time for levity or for joking. Whatever the Manchester or any other school might say, there would, he feared, be such a feeling ere long throughout the country, that the Government would be brought to say that

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they could no longer go on in the course they were pursuing; for the whole country would call for the adoption of some system by which, at least, they should secure for the people that employment which was absolutely necessary for the peace and tranquillity of the nation.
MR. JACKSONcould not but express his astonishment at the speech of the hon. Member for West Surrey. He (Mr. Jackson) had come down to the House with the intention of supporting the Motion as it appeared on the Paper; but after what had since taken place, he was convinced that the very important question before them would sustain great damage if the present mode of discussing it were carried further; and, therefore, he could not support the Motion.
MR. B. COCHRANEsaid, that although he had been present during the whole of the hon. Member for West Surrey's speech, he felt compelled to rise to state that he did not think the hon. Gentleman had been at all fairly dealt with by those hon. Gentleman who had accused him of approaching this serious subject with feelings of unseemly levity. Different individuals naturally had their different and peculiar styles in addressing the House, and certainly there might have been something, now and then, amusing in the course of his hon. Friend's speech; but he was sure that all those who had deeply thought on the question, when they came to read that speech, would certainly acquit his hon. Friend of anything like the charge which had been brought against him. There had, indeed, been levity upon this subject; but it was the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his reply to the speech of his hon. Friend, who had evinced that levity, and who had taken advantage of his hon. Friend's having introduced various topics to overlook and override the main feature of that speech—namely, the principle which it laid down of throwing the burden of the taxation of the country upon those classes who were best able to bear it, and relieving the poorer classes from the crushing pressure upon them. That had been the tone and temper of his hon. Friend's speech; and he (Mr. B. Cochrane) was glad to have this opportunity of expressing his cordial concurrence in the principle which it had enunciated, because he believed it was one of the most noble and most worthy principles that could govern the conduct of a country or a legislature.
MR. MUNTZsaid, that he had not heard the speech either of the hon. Member for West Surrey, or of his hon. Friend the Member for Warwickshire; but, as regarded the Motion itself, he must say, that the terms of that Motion were unexceptionable; and that the subject of it was one which, whether it had been treated with levity or not on that occasion, could not be so treated for any very long time. It was not long since he had himself made some statements in that House which had, in some quarters, been treated with ridicule; but those statements he now begged to reiterate; and he would further observe that subsequent experience had more than confirmed the opinions he had previously advanced. The time had come when some means must be adopted by somebody or other, by which the taxation of the country must be removed from the industrious classes. That must be done—and must be done soon. Trade was deteriorated, the wages of all the manufacturing population was deteriorated—they were worse off than formerly, notwithstanding what was said about the reduction of prices—the condition of the industrious classes was daily becoming worse—and knowing that to be the case, he should give his hearty support to the Motion of the hon. Member for West Surrey.
COLONEL SIBTHORProse to support the Motion. Very few Gentlemen would have the firmness to rise and bring forward such a question, and he had to thank his hon. Friend for the manly courage he had displayed in undertaking it. If anything more than another would induce him (Colonel Sibthorp) to vote for this Motion, it would be to see the right hon. Member for Manchester, who was once a Conservative, and now a free-trader, oppose it, for the free-traders were ready to subscribe to or support anything, no matter how inconsistent. In 1797, they had as Ministers more hardworking men, who, though they were not so well paid as at present, were better taught. They now had Ministers possessing too much of the sticking-plaster quality. They could not be moved—they were glued to their places. It would take something to move them, and if he thought they would go, he would consent for a time to raise their salaries. He thanked the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Surrey for proposing this inquiry, though he might have gone into the question a little more than was advisable. Still it was a matter deserving of inquiry; and

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when the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who should be the last man to do so, shrunk from inquiry, he (Colonel Sibthorp) must only say, "Conscience makes cowards of us all." These were the times for retrenchment; let them turn over things; closely pick out the good—they would find very few that were so—and throw away the bad. He thought he would be guilty of a dereliction of duty to his constituents if he did not give the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Surrey his cordial support and assistance in unrolling that mystery of trickery, trumpery, and trash that was to be found, if it were unveiled, in all the movements of Governments, whether Whig or Tory.
MR. HEYWORTHconsidered the Motion of the hon. Gentlemen the Member for West Surrey of vital importance. There was no doubt that the agricultural interest was suffering severely, and that being the case, it behoved the House and the country to see to the cause that had produced so prominent and prevalent an evil. It appeared, from what had passed in the House, that there was a feeling that that cause was somehow or other connected with the financial affairs of this country. It was his firm belief that it was so, and it was only the expansion of commerce that could relieve them, by giving employment to a large amount of labourers. It was their bounden duty to see if there be any fetters upon that commerce; and the way, perhaps, to arrive at any just conclusion was to look to the cause of their former prosperity. What was it that had made them the first nation of the earth, and had rendered them so wealthy? What was it that had given to the land a higher value than in other parts of the world? Why, it was the commerce of the country and the ingenuity of their manufacturers. It was by that means they gave millions of their population the means of being consumers, and that was the reason why they had been able from time to time, and from year to year, for the last seventy years, to go on enhancing their rents, until they had increased them in some places 10,000 l. per cent. Landed property in Lancashire was valued, in 1792, at 97,242 l. per annum; in 1815 the valuation was 3,100,000 l.; in 1829, 4,214,000 l.; in 1841, 6,192,000 l. per annum. But during recent years pauperism had increased, and it was full time that the progress of the evils from which the country suffered should be resisted. Let them do that by the extension of commerce.
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There were no other means, except by remitting indirect taxation. He did not think direct taxation would be so disadvantageous; and for his part he was ready to take his share of it.
MR. HENLEYdid not hear the speech of the hon. Member for West Surrey; but the House would vote rather upon the resolution proposed than the speech of the proposer; and he saw nothing objectionable in the resolution. The speeches of hon. Members had all differed in their exposition of the views they had taken of the subject; but they had all agreed in the lamentable fact that the country was in a state of great distress. No one denied that fact, although they might differ in their views as to the reasons for that distress, and the remedy. But that difference of opinion was no justifiable reason why the House should refuse to inquire into a distress so universally acknowledged, and the best means of remedying it. The reasons given by hon. Members for opposing this Motion were very unreasonable; but when the hon. Member for East Kent stated that the workhouses were overflowing, the colonies ruined, and the country in distress, and yet refused to vote for a Committee of Inquiry, he must confess he was greatly astonished. Neither could he agree with the hon. Baronet the Member for North Essex, who would not vote for a Committee because the hon. Member for West Surrey would not support the repeal of all our recent commercial legislation; on the contrary, he (Mr. Henley) would vote for every Motion of a practical nature of this kind, because, while it did not pledge the House to any course, it proposed to inquire, and to remedy that distress, which was unfortunately too general and too overwhelming. Something had been said of the largeness of salaries; and it was, he believed, the universal opinion that the rates of salary were fixed in times very different to the present. He did not go back to the last century; but he was aware that at the time fees were abolished, and fixed salaries given in their place, the cost of all the necessaries of life was very different to what it was now, and that of itself constituted a good reason for inquiry. A great portion of the direct expenditure, as well as that which was deducted from the revenue before it reached the exchequer, consisted of salaries; and a considerable reduction in the expenditure might be effected by their revision. The necessary result of modern legislation was the principle

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of getting more work for less money; and whether that principle was right or wrong, it must he applied to the vast army of persons who received pay from the country, from the highest to the lowest. That principle was carried out in every trade and in every pursuit, and by applying it to the Government officers, a reduction of expenditure might be effected. For these reasons, he should vote for the Motion of the hon. Member for West Surrey.
MR. J. O'CONNBLLobserved, that the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Surrey had expressed himself reluctant to enter into the question of Ireland; but when he left out Ireland, he left out the part of Hamlet. The hon. Gentleman recommended that the districts in Ireland where murders took place should be fined; but if the hon. Gentleman applied the rule to his own country, he would find many localities in which it would be applicable. The hon. Gentleman also said that a fine should be inflicted on those districts in Ireland where persons had died from famine; but that famine was caused, not by the inhabitants, but by the mislegislation of that House, and by the mismanagement of Ireland since she ceased to have the management of her own affairs. He would now say to the hon. Member that there was one means by which a considerable saving of expenditure might be effected. If the wants and wishes and demands of the people of Ireland were attended to, the great military expenditure now necessary for the oppression of Ireland might be done away with. And by treating the people fairly, their situation would be so improved that their contributions to the exchequer would be infinitely greater than they were at present.
MR. DISRAELIsaid, the Motion of his hon. Friend the Member for West Surrey was one, no doubt, not only of general but of universal interest. It was a Motion "That we resolve ourselves into Committee to consider the public expenditure, and the existing system of taxation, and how far both may be revised, with a view to relieve the pressure upon the industry of the country." He had not the gratification of hearing entirely the speech of his hon. Friend, though he had the pleasure of listening to a considerable portion of it. He entirely acquitted his hon. Friend of treating this grave subject in a tone of levity. A spirit of philosophic sarcasm did not necessarily involve a tone of levity; and he knew well, not
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only from his knowledge of his hon. Friend in that House, but outside its walls, that he had given to this subject the most earnest and unremitting attention. He was not, on the present occasion, anxious at all to press upon the House that it was impossible to support the resolution which had been proposed to them, because of the speech in which it was introduced. Upon that topic he would not dwell; but he would remind his hon. Friend that in calling their attention to a subject of such vast interest, it had been always the custom—he believed he might say the invariable one—to lay on the table of the House, preliminary to calling for a vote, the resolutions which he intended to propose in Committee, in order that the House should be able, when called upon to give a vote on so serious an occasion, generally to comprehend the scheme about to be proposed. He wished to impress upon his hon. Friend that he could not be doing justice to his own position and ingenuity, or to the grave subject before them, if he called upon them to vote on the present occasion without following the usual precedents of the House. If the hon. Gentleman had placed his resolutions on the table, observations such as had been made could not have been pertinent. One hon. Gentleman would not have got up and said, "Why is Ireland not referred to?" Another hon. Gentleman could not have got up and said, "The hon. Gentleman has sneered at protection, and for that reason I cannot agree to an inquiry into the state of the nation." If the hon. Gentleman had indulged in fifty sneers against protection, but had not embodied those sneers in a formal resolution of the House, any rhetorical observation of the hon. Gentleman in an expository speech would not be a fair ground for refusing to support an inquiry on the present occasion. Besides, the hon. Gentleman must feel that this inconvenience had occurred from the course he had adopted. Here was this important resolution submitted for their consideration, and it was by accident only that they had not divided upon it after the speech of the hon. Gentleman; but if he had followed the usual course, and informed the House that he was going to ask its opinion on all those great topics—the principles which ought to regulate our commercial system, and the principles which they ought to adopt for the regulation of their fiscal system—if he had given due notice that he was going to call upon them for their mature and formal opinion on the

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subject himself, at the same time frankly exhibiting to them the conclusions at which he had arrived, and which he was ready to submit for their adoption, the House would have a lengthened opportunity to make up their minds on this occasion, and would not be called upon, after a hurried discussion of an hour or two, to give a vote on such an important subject, or until after a debate that was worthy of the occasion, no doubt sustained with great ability and for a considerable time, and they might have arrived at a result on this important subject satisfactory to their constituents, and in some degree acting as a guide to the opinions of the country. He asked his hon. Friend, could that be the consequence of the discussion that night? Could his hon. Friend—not having followed the general and salutary rule of the House—say that he had secured a discussion worthy of himself and of the subject? He freely admitted that this Motion was one worthy of all respect. He freely admitted that, from his own observation of public affairs, he did not think that any very longtime could elapse without the House of Commons being called upon to resolve itself into a Committee on taxation. He asked his hon. Friend if he called upon them for a decision in this precipitate and sudden manner, in a House certainly not so full as such a division and such a Subject should summon, did he think he was advancing the views he wished to advocate, or whether he was accomplishing the result which he (Mr. Disraeli) knew, from his own experience, he sincerely and earnestly desired? One Gentleman after another had risen, and complained that topics of the utmost importance, parts of the subject, had not been noticed, or were not satisfactorily alluded to by his hon. Friend. It was quite clear that if they entered into the subject, there was no branch of it, and it was a complicated subject, that must not be treated of; but the hon. Gentleman had an opportunity of making a suggestive speech to the House, and he made every Gentleman aware, if they were not aware before—if they were, he made them doubly conscious—that the duty will devolve on them sooner or later, as Members of the House, either by speech or vote, to express a definite opinion on this important subject, namely, the system of taxation in the country. This grave question, in a rough and hurried manner, must not be precipitately disposed of; and he hoped his hon. Friend, with a due regard to the importance
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of the subject, and the circumstances under which it was introduced, and the very great inexpediency, before their constituents and the country, of deciding upon a subject of this vast importance without fair and ample discussion, would not, under the circumstances of the case, put them in the painful position of dividing on this occasion, causing many Gentlemen to divide against a Motion of which they approved, though they might not approve of the tone in which it was introduced, or the circumstances under which the division took place. He would be glad that his hon. Friend withdrew his Motion, for by voting for "the previous question" they would seem to vote against a Motion deserving of respect, and a slur would be cast on his hon. Friend. "The previous question" was a weapon that should not be lightly used; it was a safeguard, no doubt, under certain circumstances; but he thought the course that in the present instance would be most agreeable to the House, and most courteous on the part of his hon. Friend, was, that he should tell them, that having placed his views before the House, and having received from the House, as he generally did, great sympathy on the subject with which he connected himself, he would not on this occasion call for a division.
MR. LABOUCHERErose to correct a misapprehension that seemed to exist with respect to the speech of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and into which hon. Members who were not present when he addressed the House might be induced to fall. It would be strange if his right hon. Friend should treat with levity the subject of economy or remission of taxation; for his right hon. Friend must feel more sensitive on the point than any other person. It was true that he might have indulged in remarks savouring of levity while referring to some of the topics that had been introduced; but that did not imply that with regard to the subject itself his right hon. Friend took any such view of it. He (Mr. Labouchere) had only to say, with regard to the Motion before the House, that he thought the hon. Gentleman should follow the advice of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire. Let him put his suggestions in the form of resolutions, and place them on the table of the House, and he could not but say that he might be more successful in obtaining the concurrence of the House for a Committee, than on the present occasion. On the contrary.

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when he considered how extraordinary were those suggestions, framed, not as they usually were, but framed, one almost would suppose purposely, so that no two Gentlemen would be able to unite with him in supporting this resolution, some suggestions being agreeable to Gentlemen in one quarter of the House, others being agreeable to Gentlemen in other quarters; it appeared to be a resolution, as a whole, that could meet with the concurrence of no hon. Member in the House. If the hon. Gentleman took the course of placing his opinions in the form of a resolution on the table, he believed there would be a more unanimous disposition than existed to follow him. He felt the question was one of the greatest importance. He felt that the House should not embark in an inquiry, or go into Committee on such a subject, without seeing how they could profitably employ themselves, and get out of it with some practical results; and he would altogether protest against going into an inquiry on the present Motion. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had given practical proofs of his desire to effect economy. [Colonel SIBTHORP: Hear, hear!] Gentlemen might be of opinion that reductions were not carried far enough; but let any Gentleman point out any practical reductions that could be made in the establishments of the country, and Her Majesty's Government would consider their suggestions. If they went into Committee, they would produce no practical results, and consume valuable time; and for those reasons, if the hon. Gentleman persisted in his Motion, he (Mr. Labouchere) would vote for the Amendment of his right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester.
MR. ROBINSONacquitted the hon. Mover of treating the subject with unbecoming levity, but doubted whether, considering the gravity and importance of the subject, he had adopted the best means of effecting the object. As long ago as 1830, Mr. Huskisson stated his conviction that the time had then arrived when it would be absolutely necessary to consider the question of taxation. He differed with the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire as to the invariable practice of the House having been to preface a Motion of this kind by a statement of the resolutions which the hon. Mover intended to propose; but he agreed with the right hon. President of the Board of Trade in thinking that such a course would have been far more likely to
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serve his object. He had always been convinced that the only mode of obtaining relief for the people was through remission of taxation. If they were unable to increase the means of employing the people, or reducing their burdens, the only remedy left was equalisation of taxation. When the question was mooted last year, something like a pledge was given that the Government would consider it during the recess. He wished to hear whether they had done so, and whether they had arrived at some decision one way or the other. The only objection which he had to the proposition before the House was, that it mixed up the two questions of reduction of the Government expenditure, and remission of taxes, and referred both to the same Committee. They might go on shrinking from the consideration of this great question; but if he was not mistaken, public opinion would force it on them. In the early part of his Parliamentary career, so strongly impressed was he with the necessity of taking some measure which would have the effect of giving relief to the people with respect to this great question, that he moved for the appointment of a Select Committee to consider the question; and in a House of 376 Members, the Motion was lost only by a majority of 66. He approved of the object which the present Motion contemplated; but, regard being had to the peculiar circumstances under which it had been introduced, he thought the better course by far for the hon. Member for West Surrey to pursue would be, to withdraw it, as by not doing so he might place hon. Members in a false position.
MR. COBDBNrose and said that he was not one disposed to doubt the sincerity of the hon. Gentleman who had proposed this resolution, or to charge him with undue levity. On the contrary, in a great deal of what the hon. Gentleman had said he concurred. He agreed with him that the tendency of excessive taxation had been to produce revolutions; that it was the tendency of bodies of rich men to lay undue taxation on the poor; that the colonial system required remodelling; that the waste of expenditure in the dockyards and other establishments was excessive; and that the public debt ought to be grappled with. In these views he agreed with the hon. Gentleman, and he did not much differ from him as to the means of accomplishing what he proposed. The hon. Gentleman said, "Put on a property tax, equalise the land tax, and with the produce eventually

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reduce the national debt." He agreed in all that, and he also agreed with the hon. Gentleman in his concluding remark that it was impossible to return to the bread tax. Without wishing to offend the hon. Baronet the Member for North Essex, who had spoken of persons going about the country to deceive the people, he must say that the worst occupation any person could at present pursue was to attempt to lead the farmers to suppose that they could ever regain protection, and thus divert their attention from that which was attainable. He did not comprehend the hon. Gentleman's views of progressive taxation; and he did not agree with him in the slight he cast upon one of the most beautiful of modern reforms—the penny postage—or in the slur he cast upon prison discipline. Indeed, as far as he understood the proposals of the hon. Gentleman, he did not think that he could go into Committee with him with any hope of agreeing in his views. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire has said that we should have been better prepared to discuss this question if the intention of the hon. Gentleman had been placed on the table of the House. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire, I think, left the matter in considerable mystery and doubt when he brought forward his Motion. [Mr. DISRAELI: I beg your pardon; I placed the resolution on the table.] A great part of the evening was spent in discussing what the hon. Gentleman meant; there were a great many interpretations of his meaning; he himself had told us that he had left out the case of Ireland, because he intended to reveal the mystery in Committee. He (Mr. Cobden) was not much in love with Motions to go into a Committee of the whole House; there was not much meant by them; in the first place they did not get into Committee, and, if they did, he hardly thought it practicable to discuss all these questions. He would rather have one distinct proposition, and he found fault with the hon. Gentleman that he had left out of his Motion that which he (Mr. Cobden) considered the most important of all propositions, namely, a reduction of the expenditure of the country. There was no distinct proposal to reduce expenditure; there was revision of expenditure, but he made a great distinction between revision and reduction. Revision of taxation did not imply necessarily a reduction of expenditure; what he thought the country required was reduction of expenditure.
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Revision of taxation was a shuffling of the cards. He wanted to see the whole country relieved by a reduction of the expenditure of the Government, and he quite agreed that excessive taxation led to distress and want. He had already pointed out what he thought were some of the great items of expenditure; he was willing to join in a vote for the reduction of salaries; he was not for underpaying any one; he was for having as few persons as possible, for making them work well and paying them well; and you could not command talent in any other way. If you were to have a revision of taxation, it would be difficult to find out how to shift the burden from one shoulder to another. He could understand the proposal of his hon. Friend the Member for Derby. He had made to-night a very distinct and important proposition; it was that they should revert to direct taxation. He was perfectly convinced that the only way in which you could revise taxation was to relieve the great body of the working people by removing indirect taxes which pressed invariably on the multitude in a twofold way: first, by increasing the price of articles of necessity, and next, by impeding the capitalist in the means of employment. If you meant revision of taxation which was to relieve the labouring classes, then he was convinced that you had no other course but walking in the footsteps of the hon. Member for Derby. He did not mean to say that you were going at once to sweep away customhouses and excisemen, and raise the whole of taxation by a direct process; but you could not relieve the masses of the people but by taking off taxes on consumable commodities, and putting them on property, and he was anxious to see that done to an extent which was very practicable in the House. One word on a subject which had been mixed up in this debate. The hon. Member for East Kent and the hon. Member for North Essex had told us of the great and growing distress of the country. What did you mean by "the country?" He understood there was special suffering and distress at present in certain south-western counties, arising from very intelligible, obvious causes—a deficient harvest got up in a very damaged state. [Mr. PLUMPTRE dissented.] The hon. Member for East Kent shook his head. He asked any one in this House whether, from the Land's-end to the opposite coast of Kent, there was not a general failure in the harvest from the causes which he had

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stated? By a singular accident, unusual and almost unprecedented, this last autumn the south and west were visited with a fortnight's rain at a critical time, when the corn was on the ground. It damaged the corn to an extent which the hon. Member for Somersetshire had well represented. The weather cleared up, and in the north midland counties and higher districts, the harvest coming later, when the weather had cleared up the corn was got in, in average condition. This had been an exceptional state of things. On all former occasions when we suffered from a bad harvest, the south and west had got in their corn tolerably well, and the disaster had almost always fallen on the north. Their being in distress in the south and west of England was easily accounted for; but don't let them mistake the thing in this House; the effect of their being in distress in these counties did not necessarily imply that the whole kingdom was suffering from distress. He admitted that the home trade would sympathise with the state of agriculture all over the kingdom. ["Hear, hear!" from the Protectionists.] Surely that was no discovery for hon. Gentlemen. If you had a defective harvest in any season, it was not foreign importations that would prevent suffering on that account for the season; and so far as you had suffered in the south and west, the home trade had suffered also. [Sir J. TYRELL: Cattle.] If the hon. Member for North Essex would listen to him, he might be able to repeat his lesson in Essex. The hon. Gentleman was always thinking of his long and short horns. Recollect, however, that we had meat at an extravagant price for the last two years. Whatever they might think in Essex, the people of London who consumed meat, were glad it could be had for 7d. instead of 10 d. per pound. You had, besides this defective harvest in the south and west, giving rise to bad trade in London, and affecting the manufacturing districts, many disturbing causes in the foreign trade. You had had rebellions on the Continent; you had had railway speculation, which was far deeper seated than you thought: it had impoverished the middle classes; it had dried up their resources, and deprived them of the means of expenditure, and we must naturally expect that, in the north of England generally, you would have a considerable state of distress at this particular moment. He represented a district embracing a population of nearly one million and a half, of a variety of occupations. He should be
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telling an untruth if he were to come here, and, in the language of the hon. Members for Kent or Essex, were to say—" I want a reduction of taxation, because the West Riding of Yorkshire is at this moment suffering from a peculiar state of distress." There might be distress in the West Riding; Bradford might be more prosperous than Sheffield, and Sheffield than another place; but, taking the whole of Yorkshire, and comparing it with former times, it was in a state of comparative comfort and prosperity. What did they mean on the other side when they talked to the House of remedying the distress? The House must never forget, and the country must never lose sight of this, that their remedy was a protective duty on corn to raise the price of corn. Would not that be attended with evil consequences in the north of England and the metropolis? They wanted a restoration of prosperity at the expense of the rest of the community. They wanted that to be the normal state of this country—high prices and excessive distress, They had never been contented except when they had distress in the manufacturing districts. ["No, no!"] He said, yes, yes. He would tell them when they were quiet, and when they were discontented. They were quiet in 1839, 1840, 1841, and 1842, when the north of England was in constant distress and occasional insurrection. They were content in 1847 and 1848. They were not content in 1835, and they sometimes told us that they only complained now because they had low prices and a deficient harvest. They were not content in 1835, when prices were 40 s. a quarter for wheat, and when we had a plentiful harvest at home. They came with the same stories of distress, and were as much discontented as they were now that the manufacturing districts were prosperous. It was impossible that they could return to a state of things which they called prosperity, because that meant direful adversity to the rest of the community. He should apologise for intruding this topic at all; but he did not believe it due to the House or the country to be too silent on the subject. By allowing Members constantly to reiterate the old worn-out arguments on the subject of protection, they had brought themselves to believe in them. The country understood the subject; the remedy for distress in the agricultural districts must be by other means than a return to the old law. If they wanted retrenchment, he would help them;

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he never found a country Member vote for the reduction of taxation. We could not get a reduction of expenditure, because of the county Members; and he would tell the county constituency, that if they would keep the country Members away from the House (he did not ask them to support economy), the free-traders would reduce the expenditure without them, and it would never be reduced whilst they were here. His right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester had put his Amendment in the most courteous form towards the hon. Member for Surrey. He thought that if the hon. Member followed the advice of the hon. Member for Buckinghamshire, and withdrew his Motion, it would be the most proper method of disposing of it. On the Motion being put distinctly he should vote for the previous question, thinking that the hon. Member for Surrey had done some service by introducing the question.
MR. DRUMMONDrose to reply. He said, he was perfectly surprised at the language of some hon. Members, and the advice of others. But in not laying his Resolution upon the table of the House, he believed he was in conformity with the practice of the House; he remembered one case in point; he recollected that when the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade was asked, in bringing the navigation laws before the House last year, to lay his Resolution on the table, he distinctly refused. He observed, that it had been the invariable custom never to lay the resolution before the House till they were about to go into Committee. He did not put in any resolution respecting direct taxation, because he differed widely from hon. Gentlemen on the subject. The first observation that he had made to the House, was to warn the House against any one measure being sufficient to bring about the reduction which he said was necessary to the exigencies of the case, and he said we must go over the whole of our taxable system. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer began, first of all, with giving him a lecture for having lectured the House a great deal too seriously, and having talked to them about their selfishness, and about the way in which the rich always oppressed the poor. He suspected that the knowledge of the right hon. Gentleman, politically, was on a par with his knowledge of law, for he seemed never to have heard of the Saxon law by which every hundred in the kingdom was punished for every case of violence; and
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this was the simple law which he advised to be restored to Ireland. As to the Post Office, he never brought it forward at all; he simply said, that the people were very willing to accuse their rulers of extravagance, but they had offences of their own which cost the public a great deal, and he instanced the Post Office as one, and the gaols and prison discipline as another. He had been a magistrate for forty years, and he never saw the advantage of this prison discipline. He begged to remain of the same opinion. He did not bring forward this question in order to give a triumph to any faction whatever; and part of the attack of the hon. Gentlemen opposite was, that he had put together things so as to gain some with one proposition and some with another. He had not; he had only brought forward such things, of the truth of which he was himself convinced; and whether he had 100 or 200 Members with him this night, he was certain the country would speak the same language. They had taught the country that it was only by agitation, to the very verge of rebellion, that they could hope for relief; and the public would teach the Government the same lesson which they had taught the public. As to this Motion, he cared very little which way it went; but he must say, that as the country had come to a state of considerable discontent through the pilot now at the helm of affairs, he would advise Gentlemen, whether they looked to his pilotage or not, to look to some other than that on the opposite side of the House if they ever expected to be relieved from their burdens.
Whereupon previous Question put, "That that Question be now put."
The House divided:—Ayes 100; Noes 151: Majority 51.

List of the AYES.

Adderley, C. B.

Cayley, E. S.

Arkwright, G.

Chaplin, W. J.

Baillie, H. J.

Christy, S.

Baring, T.

Clifford, H. M.

Bass, M. T.

Clive, H. B.

Bennet, P.

Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B.

Bentinck, Lord H.

Codrington, Sir W.

Blackstone, W. S.

Cole, hon. H. A.

Blair, S.

Compton, H. C.

Blake, M. J.

Crawford, W. S.

Blewitt, R. J.

Dick, Q.

Boldero, H. G.

Dodd, G.

Broadley, H.

Duff, J.

Brown, H.

Duncuft, J.

Bruce, C. L.

Ellice, E.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Ellis, J.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Evans, J.

Burroughes, H. N.

Farnham, B. E.

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Farrer, J.

Packe, C. W.

Filmer, Sir E.

Palmer, R.

Frewen, C. H.

Pechell, Capt.

Galway, Visct.

Perfect, R.

Gooch, E. S.

Pigot, Sir R.

Goring, C.

Pigott, F.

Greene, J.

Pilkington, J.

Grenfell, C. P.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Hale, R. B.

Portal, M.

Halford, Sir H.

Renton, J. C.

Harris, R.

Robartes, T. J. A.

Henley, J. W.

Robinson, G. R.

Hildyard, R. C.

Rushout, Capt.

Hodgson, W. N.

Sadleir, J.

Hood, Sir A.

Scholefield, W.

Hotham, Lord

Sheridan, R. B.

Jones, Capt.

Shirley, E. J.

Keogh, W.

Sibthorp, Col.

Kershaw, J.

Simeon, J.

Lewisham, Visct.

Somerset, Capt.

Lockhart, A. E.

Sotheron, T. H. S.

Long, W.

Spooner, R.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Stafford, A.

Martin, J.

Sullivan, M.

Masterman, J.

Thompson, Col.

Moore, G. H.

Thornhill, G.

Morris, D.

Tollemache, J.

Mowatt, F.

Waddington, H. S.

Mullings, J. R.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Muntz, G. F.

Wodehouse, E.

Neeld, J.

O'Connor, F.

TELLERS.

O'Flaherty, A.

Drummond, H.

Osborne, R.

Urquhart, D.

List of the NOES.

Abdy, T. N.

Denison, W. J.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Disraeli, B.

Adare, Visct.

Dunne, F. P.

Aglionby, H. A.

Ebrington, Visct.

Anson, hon. Col.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Arundel and Surrey, Earl of

Euston, Earl of

Evans, W.

Bagshaw, J.

Fagan, W.

Baines, M. T.

Fergus, J.

Baring, rt. hn. Sir F. T.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Barnard, E. G.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Beckett, W.

Foley, J. H. H.

Bellew, R. M.

Fordyce, A. D.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Forster, M.

Berkeley, C. L. G.

Fox, W. J.

Blackall, S. W.

Gaskell, J. M.

Boyle, hon. Col.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.

Brand, T.

Glyn, G. C.

Bright, J.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Brockman, E. D.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Brotherton, J.

Greene, T.

Bruce, Lord E.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Bulkeley, Sir R. B. W.

Hallyburton, Ld. J. F. G.

Cardwell, E.

Harcourt, G. G.

Caulfeild, J. M.

Harris, hon. Capt.

Cavendish, hon. C. C.

Hastie, A.

Cavendish, W. G.

Hawes, B.

Charteris, hon. F.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Christopher, R. A.

Headlam, T. E.

Clay, J.

Heald, J.

Cockburn, A. J. E.

Heathcoat, J.

Cocks, T. S.

Henry, A.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Cowan, C.

Heywood, J.

Crowder, R. B.

Heyworth, L.

Dalrymple, Capt.

Hill, Lord M.

Denison, E.

Hindley, C.

246

Hobhouse, T. B.

Rumbold, C. E.

Hodges, T. L.

Russell, F. C. H.

Hogg, Sir J. W.

Rutherfurd, A.

Hope, Sir J.

Shafto, R. D.

Hope, A.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Howard, Lord E.

Slancy, R. A.

Hutt, W.

Smith, J. B.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.

Jackson, W.

Stanton, W. H.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Strickland, Sir G.

Labouchere, rt. hn. H.

Stuart, Lord J.

Langston, J. H.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Lascelles, hon. E.

Thesiger, Sir F.

Lewis, G. C.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Lushington, C.

Thornely, T.

Macnaghten, Sir E.

Towneley, J.

Maitland, T.

Tufnell, H.

Martin, S.

Turner, G. J.

Matheson, Col.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Milner, W. M. E.

Vane, Lord H.

Monsell, W.

Verney, Sir H.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Villiers, hon. C.

Napier, J.

Wall, C. B.

O'Connell, J.

Walmsley, Sir J.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Walter, J.

Oswald, A.

Wellesley, Lord C.

Palmer, R.

West, F. R.

Palmerston, Visct.

Willcox, B. M.

Parker, J.

Williamson, Sir H.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Wilson, J.

Peel, F.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Pennant, hon. Col.

Wood, W. P.

Power, N.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

Pryse, P.

Wrightson, W. B.

Pugh, D.

Wyld, J.

Raphael, A.

Wyvill, M.

Ricardo, J. L.

Young, Sir J.

Ricardo, O.

Rice, E. R.

TELLERS.

Rich, H.

Cobden, R.

Roebuck, J. A.

Gibson, M.

EASTERN COUNTIES RAILWAY.
MR. CHARTERISsaid, the House would remember that when he called its attention the other day to certain rumours in regard to an expenditure of sums of money unaccounted for under the head of "Parliamentary Expenses" in a report recently published by a Committee appointed to inquire into the management of the affairs of the Eastern Counties Railway, he then gave notice, in accordance with what appeared to be the general feeling of the House, that he should move for a Committee to inquire into the whole matter. He should think that every Member would be anxious and eager to investigate this subject, and clear away those rumours which so prejudicially affected the honour of the House and the character of its Members. He could not anticipate any opposition to his Motion, and would, therefore, not weary the House by making any further remarks, but would at once move—
"That a Select Committee be appointed to in-

247
quire and report upon the expenditure of certain Bums which appear as unaccounted for, under the head of Parliamentary Expenses, in the Report which was recently published by a Committee appointed to inquire into the management of the affairs of the Eastern Counties Railway Company."
COLONEL SIBTHORPseconded the Motion, and cordially thanked the hon. Member for having brought the subject forward. He only regretted that the hon. Member had not proposed a general inquiry into the whole of these railway companies. [An. Hon. MEMBER: One at a time.] Let them have an inquiry into the whole system. It was most desirable, in order to convince the country that these newfangled schemes were not deserving of their confidence. He alluded to no particular individual, nor to any particular company. Among a multitude there were good and bad. What he desired was, that the people should be able to discriminate between the good and the bad, and therefore he advocated a searching inquiry. They who feared inquiry tacitly admitted that they were not in the position in which they ought to be. He questioned all these new schemes. He was not old enough to recollect the South Sea bubble, but he had seen enough in his day on the part of men, as well on the Treasury benches as on those of the Opposition, to tell him that men who possessed power were capable of abusing it. These schemes had ruined the private interests of thousands; and, in his opinion, the whole railway system was a public fraud, and a private robbery. He would have the whole thing sifted to the bottom, that they might find out who was right and who was wrong; and if they even hanged the wrong he would subscribe to it, for it was high time that these new customs, systems, and doctrines were annihilated altogether,
MR. ROEBUCK: I am anxious that the House should not be led away by any misunderstanding of the nature of the Motion of the hon. Member for Haddingtonshire. It is a very grave subject, and should be dealt with gravely. The House should not be misled by any idle notions or peculiar whims of any hon. Member. Buffoonery is not the matter in hand; the matter in hand is that a serious and grave inquiry is suggested by the hon. Member opposite into what I understand him to have understood—namely, that certain insinuations have been made respecting this House—that insinuations and charges, which ought to be met and ought to be
248
investigated, affecting the honour of this House, through its Members, have been made; and the hon. Gentleman proposes that an inquiry should now be instituted by this House. [Colonel SIBTHORP: Hear, hear!] I beg the hon. and gallant Member will not at all take any thing to himself, even though I did use the word buffoonery. Well, Sir, I understand that the hon. Gentleman opposite having understood that certain charges were made, wishes to have an investigation made into those charges gravely and solemnly by this House. It does not affect any peculiar system of travelling in this country. It does not touch the question of railroads or of property therein vested; but it affects the character of this House, in legislating upon those companies, and not the peculiar character of the companies themselves, or of the mode of investment of property in them. And, Sir, we ought most carefully to consider that there is a large mass of property, belonging to all classes of men, invested in this species of enterprise. I speak without any particle of bias in favour of railways, not having one single farthing of interest in them; but I know it is the duty of this House not to cast upon any species of property any unfair insinuation or imputation. I am persuaded that such is not the desire of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Haddingtonshire, but that he wishes to probe to the bottom the conduct of Members of this House who, as Members of it, have legislated upon this subject. I have seen, day by day, changes in the public mind, and changes in the manner of men depending upon success in these matters—fawning to-day, cringing and almost lying on their bellies before men—as I have seen done in the face of this House—while those men were in the ascendant, and called kings in their petty dominions; and now, when fortune has turned, they turn basely with the tide, and swell the cry against the fallen king whom they have cheered on in days gone by. I have the same feeling towards the fawning parasite I have seen opposite, and the cheering Committeeman who now dogs on this House to make an inquiry into past conduct. It is only done for the same base purpose: money led them on; money now leads them on.
SIR R. H. INGLISdid not rise to give any opinion upon this subject, but he thought it would have been more satisfactory if the individual to whom partial reference had been made, had been permitted

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to be in his place before the Motion had been submitted to the House. He could not but wish that his hon. Friend who had brought forward this Motion, had paused until the individual to whom all men's eyes were now directed—though he had not been mentioned by name—and whose character appeared to be so deeply implicated, had an opportunity of attending in his place. He had been told that the hon. Member to whom he referred, had had every opportunity of attending that House; but he (Sir R. Inglis) thought it could not be known to those who entertained such an opinion, that a severe domestic calamity had occurred to that individual within the last few days. He (Sir R. Inglis) had not learned this from any personal intimacy with the hon. Member to whom he alluded, nor from any one directly connected with that hon. Member; but he had to-day received a letter from Yorkshire, expressing an earnest hope that no measures might be taken by the House until the individual in question was enabled to attend in his place. He (Sir R. Inglis) would give no opinion upon the merits of the Motion; but, as to the time and circumstances under which it was brought forward, he could have wished that a longer interval had been allowed to elapse before such a measure had been taken.
MR. H. BROWNsaid, that he had been present at a meeting of the Eastern Counties Railway that day, at which very full explanations had been given, and though he had looked very narrowly and closely into the accounts, he had not found any item affecting any Member of that House. Unless the Motion would compass the whole affairs of the Eastern Counties Railway, he did not think any practical good would result from it. Perhaps the House would excuse him if he mentioned the items which had been investigated that day. The items composing the amount respecting which a full explanation had been given were these:—Advertisements, l,537 l.; solicitors, 1,619 l.; loss on sale of shares, 3,400 l.; advertisements (Barker & Co.), 342 l.; printing, 465 l.; balance, 231 l.—being a total of 7,594 l. He did not see what advantage could result from any inquiry by a Committee, as to whom these amounts were paid, because there was no doubt in the minds of the subscribers to the Eastern Counties Railway that not a penny of that money had been expended upon Parliamentary purposes.
COLONEL SIBTHORP: I do not wish
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to trespass upon the time of the House, but the House has heard the opinions of the hon and learned Member for Sheffield, and there are personal feelings and personal character at stake. The hon. and learned Gentleman has told me that in what fell from him he did not apply the word "buffoonery" to me. I am quite ready to receive that statement; but the hon. and learned Gentleman will pardon me if I ask him to give me that distinct answer which I am sure he would upon all occasions be ready to afford.
MR. ROEBUCK: Yes, if I understand the hon. and gallant Member's question. If he will be good enough to put it, I will answer it as plainly as I can.
COLONEL SIBTHORP: That you meant nothing of the kind?
MR. ROEBUCK: I ask the hon. and gallant Member to put the question. I do not know what it is; but whatever it is I will answer him.
COLONEL SIBTHORP: Whether the expression that fell from the hon. and learned Member opposite—the word "buffoonery" was applied to me?
MR. ROEBUCK: I will repeat the words I used, and I am sure, Sir—addressing the Speaker—that you must have them in your mind. I said to the hon. Gentleman that I begged he would take nothing to himself, even though I used the word buffoonery. If that is out of order I will retract it.
COLONEL SIBTHORPagain rose, and wished, he said, to make some observations on a matter in which his personal character was involved. His character and his honour were the greatest treasures which he possessed. He hoped he had never sullied his character, and he hoped he never should. He defied the world to call his honour in question; but some individual in that House—
MR. SPEAKER: The words which fell from the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield in no way applied to the hon. and gallant Officer.
COLONEL SIBTHORP: Then I am satisfied.
Subject dropped.
Motion agreed to.

SUNDAY TRADING (METROPOLIS) BILL.
MR. HINDLEYmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent unnecessary Sunday trading in the metropolis.
MR. BARING WALLconsidered that this Bill was founded upon no principle

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at all. He did not wish to enter into any discussion upon it in the present stage; but he objected to it because it involved the principle of cumulative penalties—because it would give greatly increased powers to the police—because it would lead to constant feuds and discords—and because it was contrary to the whole spirit of the British constitution and the legislation which had taken place on this subject since the days of Charles II. It was for the House now to say whether they had such confidence in the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne, that they would consent to the introduction of a Bill which he had proved himself totally incompetent to carry through the House last Session. He (Mr. Wall) begged to move the previous question.
MR. HINDLEYsaid, that when he had formerly introduced this Bill, it had been supported on every division by large majorities; and it was only at the request of the Home Secretary, and on account of the late period of the Session, that he had consented to withdraw it. Sunday trading was carried on in that metropolis to an extent of which hon. Gentlemen could scarcely be aware. In Lambeth and other parts of the metropolis—boots, shoes, clothing, paintings, and a thousand other things were as regularly sold on Sunday as on any other day. He understood that about 8,000 tradesmen, with about 15,000 assistants, were employed on Sundays quite unnecessarily, and that many of them were exceedingly anxious that the state of the law should be altered. He trusted, therefore, that the House would not refuse him leave to introduce the Bill.
SIR G. GREYwished to correct a mistake on the part of the hon. Member for Ashton-under-Lyne. The hon. Gentleman had said that the Bill which he brought in last Session was almost successful, and was likely to have met with the sanction of the House, when he (Sir G. Grey) interposed and asked him to withdraw it in consequence of the lateness of the Session. Now, the fact was, that when the Bill got into Committee, the hon. Gentleman found himself involved in such difficulties with respect to its details, that he (Sir G. Grey) believed it was absolutely impossible to prosecute it during that Session. Under these circumstances, he suggested to the hon. Member that his best course would be to withdraw the Bill, and take further time to
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consider its details with a view to introducing it in the ensuing Session. At the same time, understanding that it was the earnest wish of many tradesmen in the metropolis that the law should be made effective for the suppression of Sunday trading, he told him that he would willingly give him such assistance as he could in considering a Bill for that purpose. He could not conceal from himself, however, the great difficulty of any attempt to legislate on the subject, and he hoped that, if the House did consent to the introduction of the hon. Member's Bill, it would be found in such a form as would render its success more probable than it was last year.
LORD D. STUARTsaid, that this was a Bill in which a large body of the inhabitants of the metropolis took great interest—and he trusted, therefore, that no opposition would be offered to the introduction of the Bill.
MR. B. WALLwithdrew his Amendment.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Hindley and Mr. Brotherton.

PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time. "
VISCOUNT DRUMLANRIGsaid, it was preposterous to think of proceeding with the discussion of the Bill at that late hour. If it was too late to proceed with an English Bill, it was too late, also, to discuss a Scotch one. He, therefore, begged to move that the House do now adjourn.
Whereupon Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
The House divided:—Ayes 33; Noes 96: Majority 63.

List of the NOES.

Anstey, T. C.

Lascelles, hon. W. E.

Arkwright, G.

Lockhart, A. E.

Blackstone, W. S.

Mundy, W.

Boldero, H. G.

Napier, J.

Broadley, H.

Oswald, A.

Brown, H.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Plumptre, J. P.

Christy, S.

Richards, E.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Scholefield, W.

Dodd, G.

Sibthorp, Col.

Dunne, F. P.

Smollett, A.

Gaskell, J. M.

Sotheron, T. H. S.

Henley, J. W.

Spooner, R.

Hodgson, W. N.

Sullivan, M.

Hood, Sir A.

Waddington, H. S.

Hope, Sir J.

TELLERS.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Keogh, W.

Drumlanrig, Visct.

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List of the NOES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Hutt, W.

Aglionby, H. A.

Kershaw, J.

Bagshaw, J.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Baring, rt. hn. Sir F. T.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Bellew, R. M.

Lewis, G. C.

Berkeley, C. L. G.

Maitland, T.

Blackall, S. W.

Martin, T.

Blake, M. J.

Masterman, J.

Boyle, hon. Col.

Melgund Visct.

Brackley, Visct.

Milner, W. M. E.

Brand, T.

Milnes, R. M.

Brotherton, J.

Morris, D.

Bruce, Lord E.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Bunbury, E. H.

Mullings, J. R.

Carter, J. B.

Mure, Col.

Cavendish, hon. C. C.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Cockburn, A. J. E.

Palmerston, Visct.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Parker, J.

Coles, H. B.

Pearson, O.

Cowan, C.

Pigott, F.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Pilkington, J.

Craig, W. G.

Pryse, P.

Dalrymple, Capt.

Raphael, A.

Denison, W. J.

Ricardo, O.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Rice, E. R.

Duff, J.

Russell, F. C. H.

Duncuft, J.

Rutherford, A.

Dundas, Sir D.

Salwey, Col.

Ebrington, Visct.

Seymour, Lord

Ellice, E.

Slaney, R. A.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.

Evans, W.

Stanton, W. H.

Ferguson, J.

Stuart, Lord D.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Filmer, Sir E.

Talfourd, Serj.

Fordyce, A. D.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Fortescue, hon. J. W.

Thompson, Col.

Glyn, G. C.

Thompson, G.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Tollemache, hon. F. J.

Hallyburton, Ld J. F. G.

Vane, Lord H.

Hastie, A.

Wawn, J. T.

Hastie, A.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Hawes, B.

Wilson, J.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Wood, W. P.

Heywood, J.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

Heyworth, L.

Wyld, J.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Hodges, T. L.

TELLERS.

Howard, Lord E.

Tufnell, H.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Hill, Lord M.

The LORD ADVOCATEthen said, that the object of the Bill was to apply to Scotland the provisions of the Bill passed last year with reference to England and Ireland. That measure, he believed, had been productive of very great advantages to the towns in which it had been put into operation. Scotland had been purposely exempted from that measure. He now proposed, however, that Scotland should experience its benefits, and he had, therefore, drawn up the present Bill, which was similar to that which had been passed for England and Ireland. This was not, however, a compulsory Bill, as was the measure which had been adopted for those two countries. He proposed that its provisions
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should be brought into operation in any district in Scotland in which one-tenth of the inhabitants might pray for he same, the tenth to consist of at least thirty of the said inhabitants., This Bill would be brought into operation under the superintendence of the Board of Health in England (for he did not think it necessary to establish a separate Board of Health in Scotland) and of the sheriffs of the counties. He proposed to appoint under this measure a resident secretary for Scotland, for the purpose of corresponding with the Board of Health in England. He might state that he had been requested to bring in this Bill by many parties in Scotland, and by none more urgently than the populous constituencies of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who appeared so anxious to oppose its progress.
MR. F. MACKENZIEwas satisfied that the Lord Advocate would have met less opposition had he made the statement he had now made at an earlier stage. The large powers given to the commissioners of defining districts were objectionable.
VISCOUNT DRUMLANRIGobjected to smuggling through important Bills at so late an hour.
MR. F. MAULEsaid, that if the noble Lord admitted that such a measure as the present was imperatively demanded, it was asking nothing unreasonable to propose that the Bill should be advanced a stage at that hour.
MR. C. BRUCEwould have preferred a board in Scotland. He likewise objected to the Bill because it ousted the county magistrates from jurisdiction, and conferred it exclusively upon the sheriff.
MR. OSWALDstated, that great jealousy prevailed in Scotland at the number of new offices created by the Bills which the Lord Advocate had introduced. At the present moment there were four Bills upon the table, each of which created four new offices. Those offices would entail an expense not only upon Scotland, but England, because the salaries would be paid out of the Treasury. If it were necessary to incur expense, in order to promote the health of the people of Scotland, let it be done, but the necessity should be made apparent.
MR. A. HASTIEexpressed his full concurrence in the principle of the Bill.
MR. COWANreferred to a report from the Edinburgh commissioners of police, to show the necessity for the Bill before the House. The people of Scotland were

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under great obligation to the Lord Advocate for bringing it forward.
Main Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read 2o, and committed for Monday 21st May.
The House adjourned at a quarter before One o'clock.

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths.—The Viscount Melville.
PUBLIC BILLS2a Summary Convictions (Ireland); Indictable Offences (Ireland); Apprehension of Deserters (Portugal).
3a Exchequer Bills.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Earls Mountcashell and Eglinton, from several Congregations of Wesleyan Methodists, for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution.—By the Bishop of Exeter, from Torrington and Clapham, for an Alteration respecting the Grants in Aid of Public Education.—By the Marquess of Salisbury and Lord Colchester, from Harpenden, and other Places, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By the Earl of Roden, from Dublin, and several Poor Law Unions in Ireland, against the Rate in Aid.—From Dunmow, complaining of the Operation of the Law of Settlement.—By the Earl of Harrowby, from York, and a Number of other Places, against the Granting of any New Licenses to Beer Shops.—By the Bishop of Oxford, from Oxford, that Article
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11. Sect. 3, Cap 2, of the Criminal Law Consolidation (No. 2) Bill may not pass into a Law.

REPORTING IN THE HOUSE.
LORD BEAUMONTrose, pursuant to notice, to move—
"That their Lordships do take into consideration No. 130 of their Standing Orders as to the Presence of Strangers during the Sitting of the House."
In making this Motion, he hoped he should meet with the indulgence of their Lordships whilst he stated the general view which he took of the subject, and also what were the particular means by which he proposed to facilitate the carrying out of the object he had in contemplation. It appeared to him that the Standing Order itself was inconsistent, and not only inconsistent in itself, but in some degree disadvantageous to the proceedings in their Lordships' House. He had no doubt that the original object of excluding strangers entirely from their debates—not admitting any strangers to be present during their proceedings—was in order that their Lordships might have greater freedom of debate and greater freedom of speech. At an earlier period of English history persons making a speech here might run a risk if their remarks were reported, and their Lordships, therefore, had preserved the power of sitting with closed doors in order that any Member of the House might deliver his sentiments without intimidation. He believed another reason for that practice had been suggested—one which, when acted on, had produced the most unfortunate results. The other reason was this—namely, that something which ought to he kept secret from the rest of the world might be stated here in the course of debate, and that it was possible that the enemy might derive knowledge from what passed in their Lordships' debates of something which it was not for the benefit of this country that he should possess. These were the two chief objects—if not the only objects—that he could discover for their Lordships sitting with closed doors. On the last occasion in which it was attempted to carry this Standing Order into execution, the scene was so ludicrous—the conduct of both Houses was so strange—that, on looking back to the occurrence, he had been tempted to make a note of the description preserved of it, and he would read one or two sentences to their Lordships on the subject. The occasion to which he alluded was the 10th of December, 1770, when the Duke of Manchester

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made a Motion with regard to the defence of the West Indies, Minorca, and Gibraltar; and in the course of the debate which then toot place, it seemed that Lord Gower interrupted his Grace in the midst of his speech, and desired that the House should be cleared of all but those who had a right to be there. A very extraordinary scene took place in consequence. There were Members of the House of Commons then below the bar, who were excluded with the rest. They were excluded with difficulty; and when they were excluded they immediately proceeded to retaliate in the other House, by moving that the House should be cleared of strangers, which necessarily included the Members of the House of Lords then below the gallery. Mr. Burke, who spoke on the occasion, said, "Sir, there is not common sense in the Standing Order of both Houses of Parliament that either House should not have hearers of their debates;" and, subsequently. Colonel Barré described the scene in the following manner:—
"I was a witness of the scene, and never shall I forget it. I was listening to the Duke of Manchester speaking on the important subject of Gibraltar and Minorca. I am not aware that he was in possession of any secret. If he was, he did not disclose it. Suddenly the whole scene became changed. I could not suppose that a single Peer remained in the House. It seemed as if the mob had broken in, and they certainly acted in a very extraordinary manner. One of the heads of this mob—for there were two—was a Scotchman, who cried out, 'Clear the hoose, clear the hoose!' The face of the other was hardly human, for he had contrived to put on a nose of enormous size that disfigured him completely, and his eyes started out of his head in so frightful a way that he seemed to be undergoing the operation of being strangled. It was altogether the most violent mob I ever beheld. You would imagine that these leaders would have continued so throughout. But, no! at the latter end of the day two men took the office of doorkeepers, who executed the office with as much exactness as if the House had been a well-regulated assembly."
That was the description as given in a speech of Colonel Barré, reported in Cavendish's Debates. Various other accounts were to he found in other speeches made at the time, describing the scene in almost similar language. After that period, for some time, as their Lordships were aware, there was a spirit of retaliation carried on between the two Houses, and all strangers were excluded. It certainly would have been a most unfortunate thing for the future history of this country if some persons in the House of Commons had not taken notes and supplied the deficiency. He would go the full length of saying, that
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the debates in Parliament—that the opinions expressed in Parliament should be made public. That might not be the opinion of every Member of the House; but his own opinion was, that the deliberations of the House should be given to the public, both for the benefit of the public and for the dignity of their Lordships' House. He imagined that the period had gone by when it was possible that any of their Lordships could be intimidated either into expressing what he did not feel, or into concealing sentiments which he really felt; and he hoped there was no Member of the House who would not boldly state before the public that which he should wish to express if they were to sit with closed doors. If even their Lordships did not go the length which he himself did, and say that their deliberations should be made public to all the world, they would at least agree with him, that if there was to be a report of their proceedings given to the public, that report should, as far as it went, give a correct representation of what passed within the walls of Parliament; they must allow that it was a great inconsistency that they should exclude every stranger by their Standing Order, and yet connive at the daily publication of reports of their debates, made by strangers whom that Order was assumed to exclude from their walls. He would sooner that the case were reversed—that the general rule should be that the debates of the House should be public—and that it should only be by a special Motion, and for some special reason, that the House should sit with closed doors, or exclude strangers, those strangers being employed in the useful task of reporting their Lordships' debates. In whichever way their Lordships viewed the case—whether they agreed that it was right that their debates should be reported, or whether they consented to a breach of their Standing Orders, at least they would agree, if any reports of their deliberations were to he laid before the public, that it was highly advisable that these reports should be correct and impartial. In proportion that it was of advantage to the public to have correct and impartial reports of their Lordships' debates, so, in an equal degree, it was injurious to the public that totally incorrect reports of debates should be given—above all, reports which gave an impression totally different from that which a correct report would produce on the public. He could advance, if he chose, many instances in which reports

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had been so very incorrect that an utterly contrary impression must have been produced on reading them, to that which would have been produced on a person listening to the debate in the House: he could also give instances of apparent partiality, where arguments had been well given on one side of the question, and totally omitted or given very briefly and imperfectly on the other. He could produce many instances in which, when questions had been put to Ministers, the answers of Ministers had either not been given, on the plea that they were inaudible, or, if given, it had been given in a sense contrary to that in which it was stated or intended to be conveyed. It was self-evident that such a proceeding as that must produce the greatest inconvenience and considerable injury. When the words of a Minister in reply to a question on an important subject, were thus misinterpreted and misrepresented, and sent forth to the public, of course a false impression was created both at home and abroad, and the result might be most detrimental to the public interests. In the same way, when important questions were debated, and if their Lordships wished to refer back to important speeches, they had no certainty, or rather, they had the certainly that the report was so doubtful that they could not rely on it. He was induced to say this from having looked back to the report of the important speeches made on the great question of the navigation laws, and in so looking back he found, with regard to two of the most important delivered on that occasion—in his own mind (without any offence to other speakers) the two best speeches delivered on either side—he referred to the speech of the noble Earl on the cross bench (the Earl of Harrowby) against the Bill, and the speech of his noble Friend, also on the cross bench (Lord Wharncliffe), in favour of the Bill—two speeches of remarkable ability, in which were concentrated the whole of the arguments on either side, and which in themselves formed a complete epitome of the whole debate; he referred to those speeches for the purpose of considering the subject himself, and he must say that the reports were such that he found in them little more than a skeleton and imperfect sketch of what was said. Therefore it was, he said, that if the debates were to be reported, it was most essential and necessary that forcible and eloquent speeches like those should be correctly given; and therefore, from that
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motive, he thought their Lordships were bound under all circumstances—however they might view their privilege of excluding strangers—to take means, as long as they allowed any reports to be published, to place those employed in reporting in such a situation and in such a position as that they could have no excuse for giving false reports, but on the contrary have every means of giving a fair and just representation of what passed in the House. In proceeding to carry this proposition, he had met with some very considerable difficulties. Supposing their Lordships should not consent to the Motion which he was about to make, namely, that their Lordships should reconsider this Standing Order with a view to its repeal, and the substitution of another in its place more in accordance with the spirit of the time and practice of their Lordships' House, he should still persist in submitting a Motion which would enable their Lordships to consider some means of placing the reporters in such a situation as to give—although the reports would be a mere connivance at a breach of the Standing Orders—the means of reporting correctly. In order to do this it would be necessary that the subject should be considered in Committee. It might be necessary that their Lordships should examine architects and others on the subject. If their Lordships proceeded on the general question of the repeal of the Standing Order itself, he believed he should be bound to refer the matter to a Committee of Privileges. According to their Standing Orders, a Standing Order could only be repealed by a Committee of Privileges—that was, a Committee of the whole House. But if it were merely for an architectural alteration, he found he could do that without submitting the question to a Committee of Privileges. He found that, after the burning of the Houses of Parliament in 1834, the Library Committee actually reported with regard to the reporters' gallery, and suggested that certain accommodation should be furnished for the reporters. He could, therefore, either refer to a Select Committee, or to the Library Committee, the question of considering by what means the reporters—[Lord BROUGHAM: Say "strangers]"—might be so placed as to be able to hear. He wished to give the Members of the House of Commons an entrance to their Lordships' House by right. He also thought it would be convenient, as a great portion of the gallery was considered to be in the House, but

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which was never used by any Member of the House, to consider whether that portion should not be voted as out of the House the meant (he centre galleries) and used for strangers? Again, with regard to Foreign Ministers, instead of their being obliged to stand at the foot of the throne, with great fatigue and inconvenience to themselves, he thought it would be advisable that a proper place should be assigned for them. In the late Chamber of Deputies, in the time of Louis Philippe, places were assigned for the Members of the British Legislature, to which they had access as a matter of right. In referring to a Committee the question whether it was advisable that those galleries should be considered out of the House; whether those side galleries should be appropriated to those strangers who were connected with the press; or, whether there should be some alteration in the gallery at the end of the House, by which the same object would be gained as if they were placed in the side galleries, he should wish, in the first instance, to ascertain the feeling of the House with regard to the consideration of the Standing Order. For this purpose, therefore, he should move that the said Standing Order be taken into consideration with a view to its alteration.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that as the question had been so distinctly placed before their Lordships by the noble Lord, who moved them to take into consideration one of the most important of their Standing Orders, with a view to its total abrogation, he felt bound to say that for himself individually—for he did not know how far he spoke the sense of the House—to such a Motion he had an insuperable objection. It ought not to be forgotten, that although their Lordships had wisely shown a disposition to permit a knowledge of their debates to be diffused among their countrymen, it had always been under sufferance, and with the intention of maintaining all their privileges, one of which privileges, whenever they thought fit to exercise it, was the exclusion of strangers. Whilst, however, he objected to the abandonment of this privilege, and to the repeal of their Standing Order, he felt, that so long as persons were permitted to have access to the House with a view of reporting the debates of their Lordships, under sufferance, so long as persons were in the habit, without any objection on the part of their Lordships, of communicating to the public
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the proceedings of Parliament, their Lordships had the deepest interest in having that duty faithfully and impartially, and he must add, conveniently discharged. He was likewise bound to say, that if, in common with many of their Lordships, he had occasionally suffered from an incorrect representation of the remarks which had fallen from his lips, he had no reason to believe that that imperfect, or it might be false, representation had proceeded from any improper motive on the part of those who, he believed, sedulously and conscientiously discharged the duties which they had undertaken. Indeed, he was surprised that under some circumstances the reporters discharged their duties as excellently as they did; for their very imperfections proceeded, and must proceed, from that of which their Lordships were the most adequate judges, the state of disorder which prevailed within as well as without the walls of what was technically called "the House." For the purpose of obviating the difficulties by which the reporters were at present beset, he thought that their Lordships would do very right to adopt the second of the alternatives mentioned by the noble Lord—namely, that of referring to a Select Committee—or, perhaps, the Library Committee would be more convenient—the consideration of the question, whether any greater convenience could be obtained for the prevention of that which they must also confess to be in itself an evil. He could not refrain from suggesting to their Lordships on this occasion the duty imposed upon themselves individually of preserving order; and he ventured to add his conviction, that any effort directed by the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack for the preservation of order would meet with the unanimous and constant support of their Lordships.
LORD BROUGHAMobserved, that as he had himself had the honour of filling the office of Speaker of their Lordships' House during the period when he sat on the woolsack, he naturally took a great interest in this question. He entirely concurred in the view taken of it by the noble Baron, with one exception, namely, that he thought the necessity for this Standing Order did not exist. He should have been much better pleased if the proposal for taking this Standing Order into consideration, had not been made the preface to the Motion. It was an important Standing Order, and he was not prepared to give it up. It was

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of the greatest importance that the privileges of that House should be not only thoroughly understood, but also strictly maintained, so far as regarded the interference with their proceedings of any persons who did not belong to the Peerage. If their Lordships should once relax the absolute prohibition of that interference in favour of any party, there was no knowing—at least he did not know—how soon their Lordships might be in that state to which he would not further allude, but which had been found so mischievous in foreign countries. With regard to the strangers' gallery, their Lordships had long recognised, even by their orders, the presence of strangers attending in that House; but they had not yet recognised by their orders the publication of their debates. Their Lordships knew that those debates were given to the public. Their Lordships connived at their publication—their Lordships would be very wrong if they did not so connive—and their Lordships and the public would be sufferers, nay, legislation itself would be a sufferer, if their debates were not communicated to the world, and freely canvassed by the public at large. But still, by the wisest and most patriotic of their predecessors, holding, in both Houses of Parliament, the same opinions on this point as himself, it had been unanimously held that it should be by connivance, and not by express permission, that such publication took place. He had been going to state, when he was led away into this digression by the importance of the matter, that the strangers' gallery was not, technically speaking, within the walls of the House, and, consequently, that it was not necessary to take this order into their consideration with a view to the alteration of the House, or the exclusion of strangers. How far it might be expedient to extend that portion of their Lordships' territory, which, although within the walls of the building, was, nevertheless, not in the House, was another question, and fit for consideration by a Committee. He entirely agreed with the noble Lord, that it would be futile to consider this question as a question of privilege. Their Lordships had never been in the habit of referring to a Committee of Privileges any question except one of doubt. Now there was no kind of doubt in this case. That was a reason why it appeared to him to be a fit case to refer to the Library Committee, to which their Lordships might add any new Members they
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pleased. Having stated the grounds on which he thought that their Lordships ought to look at the reports of their debates as a matter of connivance, he must now express his entire concurrence, as in justice to the parties he was bound to do, in the panegyric which the noble Marquess had so justly pronounced on the generally unexceptionable manner in which the accounts of their proceedings were given to the public. There was great difficulty at all times in giving accurately words spoken. It was a task requiring great attention, great industry, and great ability. Their debates were given, as far as his knowledge and belief extended, with most exemplary impartiality, as well as with great fidelity and talent. That was his decided belief and opinion. He believed it to be also the opinion of all their Lordships who took any interest in the perusal of their debates. He did not forget that among the many difficulties under which the reporters at all times laboured, they laboured now unhappily under a difficulty belonging to and arising from that very beautiful and magnificent structure. There was a difficulty at all times in hearing in that part of the House (the reporters' gallery) more than in any other, as he had shown on different occasions. He would add, in confirmation of the statement of the noble Marquess opposite, as to the maintenance of order in the House, that those who were in the habit of attending there in the morning sittings during the hearing of causes, were aware how much of that difficulty depended not on the structure of the House, but on the peculiar structure and functions of the parties then sitting within it. Their attention was not always of the sort which it ought to be, though they might not be engaged in unmeaning conversation. In the morning, when few were present but law Lords and counsel at the bar, and the parties interested, there was no extraneous conversation. The House was the same then as now, and it was only justice to Mr. Barry, their architect, to say that there was then no difficulty in hearing. But when the bar was so crowded as it always was upon great occasions in the evening, he must say that both in coming into and in leaving the House, he had heard but little, when passing, owing to the constant buzz of conversation among the parties near it. All this very much increased the difficulty of hearing to the reporter, and with the difficulty of hearing the difficulty of reporting was incalculably increased.

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The Speaker of the House of Lords did not, like the Speaker in another place, possess the privilege of preserving order. He wished that their Speaker had that privilege, but he feared that it could not he. He himself might he "pulled up," as the phrase is, with some other of their Lordships, if that were the case, but at present they had no fear of the kind.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYconsidered their Lordships to he much obliged to the noble Baron for bringing this Motion forward. The noble Baron had alluded to certain speeches as not having been sufficiently reported. Such was unquestionably the fact, and he thought that their Lordships should take measures to have every speech sufficiently reported. He concurred with the noble Lords who preceeded him that there was great impartiality, and no wish to misrepresent, on the part of those who undertook to report the debates in that House. He did not think that the prominent Members of their Lordships' House had any reason to complain; but it sometimes happened that it might be important to a Member of less eminence, that the reasons for the vote which he was about to give should be known. On a former night he had taken some exceptions against the Navigation Bill, and no note was taken of them in the reports. He did not quarrel with this himself, but Ministers were in a different position. If their answers were, as was constantly stated, inaudible, it certainly was important that the reporters should be placed in a better position, where they might do justice to all parties.
LORD REDESDALEdecidedly objected to the removal of the reporters into the side galleries. If those galleries were better known, they would be better filled. There was only one alteration that could be made with effect, and that was the bringing of the reporters' gallery much more forward. As to the allegation that parties not commanding the attention of the House were not so well reported as others who did command it, it arose from the vast space which existed below the bar—where, during the delivery of an indifferent speech, much conversation went on among the persons in attendance just below the reporters' gallery, much to their impediment and confusion. If the reporters' gallery were brought more forward—and it could be done without injury to the architecture of the House—it would
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deaden and prevent the noise now so justly complained of. He objected, however, to the proposal of considering strangers as out of the House; for if they were out of the House their Lordships would have no means of enforcing order among them.
The EARL of GALLOWAY: My Lords, as it has been asserted that the reports of our proceedings are accurately given to the public, I beg leave to give my humble but most emphatic dissent to that assertion. When the noble and learned Lord, and other individuals who occupy a high position in public estimation, address your Lordships, there may he more attention paid to what goes on, and therefore they are more accurately reparted, and, being occupied with many things, do not look at any other speeches than their own in the reports of the debates. But when an humble individual like myself, to whom it is a most unwelcome task ever to have to speak one word in public, feeling himself urged by public bodies, is forced to address the House—such an individual generally considers, before he does so, what he means to say, and uses very few words. He looks into the newspapers the next day to see how his speech is reported; and it has been my unhappy fate, who have had to present hundreds of petitions on a most important subject, having heard from friends in the gallery that every word that I said was heard perfectly, to find that not one word which I said was reported. I hope I am heard now. My Lords—I must say—I can smile at this—I care nothing for myself personally; but I think, upon my word and honour, that there is nothing more calculated to lower this House in public estimation—than the way—the miserable way—in which the debates of the House are reported.
EARL GREYvery much agreed with the noble Earl who spoke last but one, that part of the inconvenience suffered by the reporters arose from the buzz of conversation carried on at the bar. He must say, that since he first knew the House of Lords, a very great change had taken place in that respect. He recollected that, in former times, if a stranger said a single word in way of conversation within the House, one of their officers or messengers was always ready to rebuke and check him, and to request him to be silent. He thought that the House should revert to that system; and although its messengers

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were not authorised to interfere with any of their Lordships who violated the rules of order, he thought that they might properly interfere with those parties who, being only present by courtesy, employed themselves, not in hearing the debates, but in talking about them. That was a great inconvenience, not only to the reporters, but also to their Lordships themselves. He had himself frequently found it difficult in Committee to collect the observations made by noble Lords only on the opposite side of the table, in consquence of the buzz of conversation going on at both ends of the House. He thought that some peremptory instructions should be given to their officers to prevent the recurrence of such disorder.
The EARL of GALLOWAY: If the speeches are not heard by the reporters, I think at any rate that they should not be allowed to make other speeches instead of them.
The EARL of MALMESBURYthought that the reports were as well given as they could be under the existing state of things; but, in saying that, he was far from saying that the speeches of their Lordships were always correctly reported—for they were very far from being so. He could never understand what the objection was to the House having an official reporter of its own. Their Lordships now quoted Hansard; but Hansard had no other channel of intelligence save the reports in the newspapers. It was of importance that their Lordships should have some authority attached to their reports; and he could see no reason why they should not have a shorthand writer in the House to take a note of their debates, as they had in their Committees to take a note of evidence. They might have some persons employed for this object, as was the case in most of the legislative assemblies of the Continent.
LORD MONTEAGLEobserved, that a good deal had been said in the course of the debate as to the rights of various classes, both in and out of that House; but not a word had been said of the mode in which the rights of readers would be affected by the proposition of the noble Earl. If every speech uttered in that House were taken down totidem verbis, and were so given to the world, nobody would be able to read such a mass of verbiage.
The EARL of MALMESBURY: I did not propose to publish it. I meant that there should be an official reporter, an officer of the House, whose report should be
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official, and should be preserved in the library of the House, to be referred to hereafter as an historical record.
LORD MONTEAGLEpointed out the great inconvenience of such a measure. He had that day had put into his hand a minute printed by authority of their Lordships. It showed that a shorthand writer, however skilful, even Mr. Gurney himself, might fall into strange and important errors. No shorthand writer, however able and however careful, was capable of reporting everything correctly and without mistake. If their Lordships should appoint an official reporter, they would make themselves responsible for his reports. At present nobody but Hansard was responsible for the reports which their Lordships quoted. If you had an official reporter, who might be a sworn shorthand writer, you could have no greater certainty of his accuracy than you have of the present reports, and therefore it appeared to him that the proposition of the noble Earl was not sustainable.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEassured the House that he had no intention of conferring upon his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack any power, authority, or privilege which was not in existence at present. All he had intended to observe was this—that the noble Peer on the woolsack, filling the high position which he did, had a right to exercise that authority which every Peer had, and to declare that such and such a Peer was departing from order, and that such a declaration coming from such a quarter would have great weight, and would meet with cordial support from the House. It was only just that he should state the opinion of the very distinguished architect to whom their Lordships were indebted for their very magnificent chamber, and that was, that the House was not ill-constructed, but too well constructed, for hearing; that, owing to that circumstance, the reporters heard at once not only the speeches which their Lordships were delivering, but also all the other speeches which other parties were delivering in the House; and from that chaos they found a difficulty in extracting that alone which they ought to hear.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, with regard to the suggestion of the noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury), that unless a speech was made with the most perfect accuracy, and was so prepared that there could hardly be the possibility of an error in a word, their Lordships would be astonished, and

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not very much edified, if they saw the very words they had used represented. Those speeches which were delivered at the bar of their Lordships' House, which were elaborately prepared, and which were spoken as if they were extempore, in point of manner, were most admirably given by Mr. Gurney; but he had seen a copy of extempore debates among the counsel, and he could assure their Lordships that the speeches of the most able, eloquent, and accurate advocates did not redound much to the credit of their accuracy of diction.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURYthought they might do much to effect the object they had in view, by a simple order of the House, directing that silence should be strictly kept, as was done in the House of Commons.
LORD BEAUMONTconsidered that the sense of the House had been pretty satisfactorily ascertained on this subject. The Motion before the House was, that the Standing Order No. 130 should be taken into consideration; but the general feeling of their Lordships seemed to be against abandoning their existing privilege. He had, however, heard nothing which had induced him to change his opinion; and he believed that in abandoning that privilege, they would only abandon a privilege which was injurious to themselves, and one which was never acted upon. He looked upon the Standing Order as so many useless words; and he thought if it were abandoned, they might be enabled to claim rather more consideration from those strangers who gave accounts of their proceedings than they could do at present; they would put them in a different position, and one in which it would become more their duty to attend to the proceedings of the House. As it appeared, however, that their Lordships were still anxious to retain their privilege, he would not press the subject, but would beg leave to withdraw his Motion relating to the Standing Order, and substitute in its place the following Motion:—
"That a Select Committee be appointed for the purpose of considering the Accommodation afforded to Strangers in this House."
If such a Committee were appointed, they could go into the whole question, and would be able to consider any alteration that might be suggested in the construction of the House. He did not know whether such a Committee would be empowered to take into consideration the proposal of his noble Friend (the Earl of Malmesbury);
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and unless the noble Earl anxiously wished that they should take it into consideration, he would prefer that they did not. He thought it would be impossible to carry out the suggestion, and that if it were adopted, it would be almost useless. He would therefore prefer confining the reference to the Committee to such alterations as might enable strangers to hear better than they now could do what passed in the House.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsuggested the omission from the Motion of the words "to strangers."
LORD BEAUMONTassented to the alteration.
Motion withdrawn. Then it was moved—
"That a Select Committee be appointed to take into consideration the Accommodation of the House;"
which was agreed to, and Committee appointed.

CRIMINAL LAW CONSOLIDATION BILL.
The BISHOP of OXFORDhad a petition to present against a clause in the Criminal Law Consolidation Bill of the noble and learned Lord opposite to him, which, however its prayer might be opposed to the views of that noble and learned Lord himself, would command his respect, in consideration of the learning, and character, and attainments of the body from whom it emanated. This was a petition from Bachelors and Under-graduates of the University of Oxford. It appeared to these petitioners that by the clause in question, an uncertain penalty was attached to a certain breach of the law, in the case of chapters not electing the party recommended to a benefice by the Crown, without assigning good and sufficient reasons for such refusal. They complained that this penalty was nowhere defined, but was left in the most vague uncertainty.
LORD BROUGHAMassured the right reverend Prelate that he could not overrate his (Lord Brougham's) unbounded respect for the petitioners, who were well entitled to all the praise that his right reverend Friend claimed for them. The case was not unfairly put in the petition, and he could assure noble Lords that he had consulted with legal and judicial authorities on the subject, without being enabled to insert a satisfactory definition of the character of the penalty in question. After the best consideration he had been able to give to the point, he had come to

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the conclusion that, in the present state of the law, it would be better for this House to digest the Bill before them as it stood. It was very difficult to define the precise nature of the penalty of prœmunire; but it was unquestionably a very heavy one.
The BISHOP of OXFORDventured to remark that the admission just made by the noble and learned Lord was an ample justification of the petitioners at their complaint of this part of the Bill. When that high authority experienced a difficulty in describing what the actual nature of this penalty was, those whose petition was now before their Lordships might well be pardoned for considering it was an uncertain one.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he would give the subject his most attentive consideration before the Bill came on for second reading.
Petition read and laid on the table.
House adjourned till To-morrow.