Sitting of 27 March 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—1° Friendly Societies.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Hume, from the Commissioners of Cape Town, Cape of Good Hope, against Convict Emigration to that Colony.

DUBLIN CONSOLIDATION IMPROVEMENT, WATERWORKS, AND SEWERS BILL.
Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
MR. T. O'BRIEN moved as an Amendment that it be read a second time that day six months.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
Sir J. Y. BULLERsuggested that all these Dublin Bills should be withdrawn, and that the matter should be taken up by Government.
SIR W. SOMERVILLEsaid, the Bills had been a long time before the House, and had led to great difference of opinion.
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The Lord Lieutenant had sought to bring the contending parties in Dublin to an agreement, and it was hoped this task would have been accomplished. The Chamber of Commerce, and a large portion of the inhabitants, were of opinion that the present corporation did not fairly represent them; a part of the proposed arrangement was, that the corporation should be dissolved, the wards remodelled, and the body formed in the same way as the municipal corporations of this country. The Lord Mayor and two other influential members of the corporation had agreed to this arrangement; and he had hoped, ere this, to be able to state that the matter had been satisfactorily arranged. A deputation from Dublin had, however, since waited on him, announcing that part of the arrangements could not be accepted; and be had now to announce that no agreement had yet been come to. The House ought now to consider, independently both of the Chamber of Commerce and the corporation, what was best to be done for the interests of the ratepayers. In accordance with the recommendations of the hon. Baronet the Member for South Devonshire, he was now prepared to introduce a measure, for the purpose he had alluded to. This was a very unusual course for the Government to adopt; but the circumstances warranted it. It would be necessary to apply to the Standing Orders Committee for leave to introduce the Bill, which he hoped would be generally acceptable to the citizens of Dublin, and which, if carried, he trusted would be the means of healing the breach now existing there. As a preliminary to their introducing this Bill, the Government should require either the withdrawal or the rejection of the private Bills now before the House.
MR. GROGANrejoiced to hear the determination come to by the Government. Owing to the strong party spirit prevailing in Dublin, it was almost impossible to introduce any measure which should give general satisfaction. His only object was to get a good Bill; and with the view of securing that, he would suggest that any further proceeding on the three Bills now before the House should be postponed till the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland had introduced his measure.
MR. S. HERBERTthought the only chance of getting a good Bill was for the Government to take the matter into their own hands. At the same time, he hoped that the three Bills now before the House

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would not be kept in abeyance, but be rejected at once.
MR. W. PATTENhoped that all the three Bills would be dealt with in the same way.
MR. REYOLDSdid not altogether approve of the course proposed by the Government. He denied that the Council of the Chamber of Commerce represented any portion of the citizens; they were elected by a large body of merchants, but not by the ratepayers, and they were therefore little better than a self-elected body. Nevertheless, they seemed to consider themselves the beginning, middle, and end of all municipal respectability. This body, however, did not approve the Bill promoted by his hon. Colleague. They charged the corporation with not representing the citizens of Dublin; but this he (Mr. Reynolds) denied. At the same time, they proposed to give to the remodelled corporation all the powers possessed by the present municipal body, except that of collecting taxes, which was to be placed in the hands of the Executive. In England the municipal qualification was lower than in Ireland; the consequence was, that instead of there being 20,000 burgesses in Dublin, there were only 2,900, although there were 21,000 occupations assessed to the poor-rate at 800,000 l. At present, Dublin was taxed by seven wards, six of whom were self-elected: to collect 200,000 l. a year of taxation, there were 69 tax collectors, and each ward had its solicitor and board of officers. In the name of justice and mercy, he asked that Dublin should be emancipated from this tyranny. Such was the object of the Bill he promoted, on behalf of the corporation. Nevertheless, he was disposed to accede to the request of the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, and would consent that both the Bills should be postponed till the Government Bill was introduced; and if it was found to recognise the broad principle of no taxation without representation, it should have his support. He hoped the right hon. the Lord Mayor of Dublin would withdraw the Amendment he had proposed for the reading of the Bill a second time that day six months.
MR. T. O'BRIENconsented to do so, on condition of both the Bills being postponed.
MR. GROGANwas willing to suspend, but not to withdraw, his Bill.
The EARL of LINCOLNdid not think it would be giving the Government Bill a fair
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chance, if any one of the three Bills now on the Paper were allowed to remain.
MR. HUMEwas in favour of postponing the Bills, for if they were rejected altogether, perhaps nothing more might be done this Session. He suggested that the second reading might be postponed for three weeks, with the view of giving the Government time to prepare their Bill.
SIR W. SOMERVILLEsaid, he had made his offer in the most sincere and bonâ fide spirit; but it was an indispensable condition, that the present Bills should be either withdrawn or rejected.
MR. J. O'CONNELLsaid, this was placing the inhabitants of Dublin in an awkward position. The corporation of Dublin, returned by the free election of the burgesses, had been for ten years keenly opposed by some, who considered themselves the most respectable of the inhabitants, but who, however, had not been able to bring any charge of neglect of duty against the corporation. One of these Bills was promoted by the corporation, another by the Chamber of Commerce, and the third by an individual. If these Bills were withdrawn, and if the Government Bill was not approved, the promoters of these Bills would be placed in a very disadvantageous situation.
Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and negatived:—Words added:—Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
Second Reading put off for six months.

DUBLIN CORPORATION WATERWORKS BILL.
MR. REYNOLDS MR. REYNOLDS moved the Second Reading of this Bill, and said he should press it to a division.
Order for Second Reading read. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
Question put, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 34; Noes 126: Majority 92.
Words added:—Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
Second reading put off for six months.

DUBLIN IMPROVEMENT BILL.
The Second Reading of this Bill was also put off for six months.

VANCOUVER'S ISLAND—AND THE HUDSON'S BAY COMPANY.
MR. GLADSTONEwished to know from the hon. Gentleman opposite, the Under Secretary for the Colonies, whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce during the present Session any Bill for the purpose of adding to, or altering, any of the provisions of existing statutes having reference to the territories of the Hudson's Bay Company in America, with a view of giving facilities to the proceedings of the Company, or of any settlement formed under it in Vancouver's Island? and if so, whether such Bill would certainly be introduced at an early period?
MR. HAWESsaid, the only Bill intend ed to be brought in by the Government was a Bill about to be introduced into the House of Lords by the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Office, the object of which was to establish courts of judicature in Vancouver's Island. At present, the law required that persons should be sent for trial to the courts in Canada; but as it would be impossible to carry out that Act if Vancouver's Island was colonised, it was deemed necessary to introduce a Bill for the purpose of establishing courts of judicature in that island. The Bill for this purpose would be introduced before Easter.
Subject at an end.

TRANSPORTATION TO SOUTH AFRICA.
MR. ADDERLEY, after presenting a petition, signed by a large number of the colonists of New Zealand, praying that these colonies, which had been hitherto untainted by convict labour, might be still preserved from its contagion, proceeded to call the attention of the House to the Motion of which he had given notice, on the subject of the intention of the Government to establish penal settlements in South Africa. He could not but regret deeply that in moving that an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her to relieve one of Her colonies from an infliction which they deeply felt, and strongly resented, anything he could have to say on the subject should in the slightest degree bear the character of a personal attack. Nothing was further from his mind in bringing forward a national grievance than the mere implication of any individual in the blame attached to that grievance. For his part, he simply looked on the Members of the colonial part of the Exe-
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cutive as the A B C of a problem rapidly working out to this conclusion—the destruction of the colonial empire. But, on the other hand, he did not see why any mere scrupulous delicacy towards men high in office should stop the mouth of any hon. Member in the House from freely and fully stating a public grievance. He entertained the highest opinion of the noble Earl the Secretary of the Colonies, and fully believed that he was actuated by high-minded purposes in carrying out his intentions. In moving this Address, he wished, in the first place, to guard the question from two misconstructions to which it might be liable, and particularly so in his hands. The first was, lest the House should think the question less important owing to its being brought forward by one of so little experience, and so little known or connected with a question of such vast importance; the second was, lest by any unsuccessful handling on his part, a question of such importance should be mixed up with other collateral questions, and not be allowed to stand upon its own footing. With regard to the first, he was so far peculiarly qualified to bring forward the question, that he was entirely unhampered by prejudice on the subject; and it would be absurd to say that he had brought forward the subject merely with a view of making a hostile attack on the Government. In this case, at least, the colonies would understand that they were not indebted to any party spirit for the chance of being heard in that House. He was speaking on behalf of that large and growing portion of this empire who were anxiously watching how this country would fulfil its great destiny—in no respect greater than with respect to its colonial empire—who were watching with intense interest how it would fulfil its destiny as a parent of new nations—whether it would treat them as children or as slaves—rear them or degrade them—surround them with all the elements of strength and greatness, or stunt their growth by infecting their youth with all the corruptions of its own decrepitude. With respect to the question itself, he thought he should best consult its interest, as well as the patience of the House, by at once simply and shortly stating the case which he wished to bring before the notice of the House. His case was, that the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Office having decided upon a new experiment in convict discipline, which would inflict the first

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and severest part of the punishment in solitary confinement in the penitentiaries of this country—the second portion in some kind of probation in one or two military stations, and then spread selected convicts, under tickets of leave, over the largest possible range of the dependencies of this country—had begun to carry out this new experiment, by recommencing transportation to New South Wales, with the consent of the Legislative Council of that colony, and by commencing, for the first time, the system of transportation to the Cape of Good Hope, not only without the consent, but even without consulting the wishes, of that colony, and proceeded in so doing against its general and strong remonstrance. He would not stay to consider the value of the consent of the Legislative Council of New South Wales. That consent was obtained by the promises of the Government, that for every convict sent to that colony, there should also be a free emigrant sent out. In answer to the repeated applications of the colonists, they had been told by the Colonial Office that there were no funds with which to give them that upon the faith of which the consent was obtained. The latter part of the contract was never carried out. The colony had the convicts without the free emigrants; and he must say they deserved the treatment they had received, for accepting the proposition of the Government upon such disreputable conditions. He did not wish to discuss the value of that consent so obtained. The consent of legislative councils was not, in his opinion, worth much. But what must be the amount of the dissent of the colonists of the Cape of Good Hope, which could have found its way to this country through the narrow and meagre channels of popular opinion which existed in the close constitution of that colony? It must, indeed, have been a dissent of the strongest kind. Now, the justification of the noble Earl the Secretary of the Colonies, was this—that because they had spent a certain sum of money in conducting the Kafir war, they had a right in return to demand some such service from the colony. That was the justification for this discreditable exaction of unwilling service. He appealed to the House against the impolicy of treating their dependencies in such a manner. He appealed against the gross injustice of selecting a weak dependency upon which to try this experiment, instead of applying the principle impartially to all of them. He appealed against the
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mean, ungenerous justification of the noble Earl for the measure in question. He appealed to the House most confidently on these three grounds—to their sense of honour and their love of freedom; he appealed to Her Majesty herself to wipe out this stain from Her Administration; and as speedily as possible to assuage the just irritation consequent upon so flagrant an act of capricious tyranny. He looked at this question simply as one of colonial policy, and entirely distinct from that of secondary punishments; and he appealed to the House—knowing, as he did, its inclination, from the freedom of its debates, to digress into collateral subjects—he appealed to those interested in colonial questions, not to clog this question with the consideration of what was merely a collateral subject—the philosophy of punishment. He appealed to those interested in the large, important, and vital question of secondary punishment, not to bring that subject forward as a mere incidental episode to this debate. Should any hon. Gentleman think, that by his avoiding the question of secondary punishments, he was blinking any arguments against his position, he would at once remove all such suspicion by stating that he was ready, at once, for the purpose of this debate, and for the sake of argument (though he did not concur in the opinion), to admit all that they wished upon that subject. He would admit, for the sake of argument, that those convicts who were sent to the Cape of Good Hope would be as serviceable to the colonists there as servants as they were a good riddance to this country; he would even further admit, that if the Cape of Good Hope ceased to remonstrate, his argument would fail; and he would even go further, and admit, that if the Government were prepared to carry out the measure equally and impartially to all the colonies, the greater part of his accusation against them would fall to the ground. Having admitted all this, it would be clear that any hon. Member who opened the great subject of secondary punishments would be speaking utterly beside the question. He did not ask the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department to notice his remarks, which did not apply to his department. He knew that he had carefully applied the acuteness of his mind, and, he would add, the goodness of his heart, to the consideration of the system of secondary punishments. He would bear him out

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in the opinion, that their connexion with the subject of colonial administration had never been a reputable one. They began by making colonies to send their convicts to, and they now sent convicts to maintain their colonies. The transposition of the two propositions betrayed the fallacy of their connexion; but he did not wish the Home Secretary to discuss that fallacy now. He would have opportunity enough to deal with that question soon, and to prove that the difficulties connected with it had never yet been traced to their real source, the perennial fountains of crime in the social system of this country. Having thus narrowed the subject, all that he had to do was, first, to prove his allegations against the Colonial Department, namely, that they had sent convicts for the first time to the Cape of Good Hope without consulting the colonists, and that they proceeded to do so against their remonstrances. That was his first point. He would then endeavour to prove that the Cape of Good Hope, of all the colonies, had the greatest right to remonstrate against this infliction upon them; and then the main point of all was, that this conduct on the part of the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Department, if not repudiated by the House, would be, upon its part, a public adoption of a retrograde movement in colonisation; and that, too, at the time that the country was crying out for an advance in the spirit of its colonial policy. Lastly, he would call the attention of the House to the justification of the noble Earl for those acts, which he (Mr. Adderley) considered, if persisted in, would be injurious to the honour of the country, disastrous to the colonies, and dangerous to their liberties at home. With respect to the first point, this was the first time that convicts had been sent to the Cape of Good Hope, though he believed that there was an erroneous impression in the minds of many hon. Members existing of a precedent. About ten years ago a philanthropic plan was formed, of sending orphan and foundling boys to Robben Island in Table Bay. So great, however, was the feeling which was raised against it, that it was found necessary to give up the plan. The bare idea that these boys might be convicts, led to a remonstrance similar to the present complaint. Nothing could show more clearly the sensitiveness of the people upon this subject. There was another circumstance which might,
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also perhaps give rise to an erroneous opinion upon this subject, and lead hon. Members to suppose that this was not the first time that convicts had been sent to the Cape. In the year 1842 a long correspondence took place between the two Secretaries of State and Mr. Montague, Secretary of the Cape of Good Hope, as to the best mode of dealing with the convicts under sentence of the Cape courts. At another period there was a proposal made to send convicts to the Cape, under certain restrictions. It, however, was not considered feasible to send them, even with these restrictions, and the suggestion was withdrawn upon the remonstrance of the colonists. There was, therefore, no possible precedent for the case before them. Convicts now were sent out for the first time, from any country, and under any circumstances, to the Cape of Good Hope, and they were sent out without consulting the colonists. Would that that were all! The plan had, however, been persisted in, against the remonstrance of the inhabitants. Would that even that were all! By the most ingenious exaggeration of insult, simultaneously with the announcement of the plan for sending convicts to the Cape, some instructions were sent to the Governor, by way of a curious pathological experiment, to test and report upon the sensation produced. Castigatque, Auditque. The colonists had scarcely heard the announcement, when a large meeting was immediately convened in order to give them an opportunity of expressing their opinion upon the subject, and the result was a memorial to the Governor, praying him to use his influence to prevent the plan from being carried into effect. He was sorry that this memorial, with other documents, had not been laid upon the table of the House; he had asked for them repeatedly, but had not been able to get them from the Colonial Office. The answer he had received was, that they had not got them. He saw that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies was taking a note of that assertion. He might not have asked with anything like official accuracy of expression, but he had sufficiently identified the papers for which he inquired. He might have asked for papers A, which were technically designated B, but he had made his application perfectly intelligible; yet the only answer he had received was, that there had been no such documents received. All of them, however, had found their way to England, and had been in this

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country for the last two mouths. This largo meeting of the inhabitants of the Cape of Good Hope—the largest meeting ever known there—unanimously came to an expression of opinion, from which he would read two or three extracts to the House. They resolved—
"That from the vast extent of this colony, the sparseness of its population, and the impossibility of maintaining an efficient police, except in very limited localities, the introduction of men from Great Britain and Ireland capable of committing crimes so heinous as to justify the high penalty of transportation, would be inexpressibly dangerous to life and property."
The meeting also adhered—
" to the determination expressed in 1842, in a petition to the Queen, that they will not consent to the admission of convicts on any terms or conditions whatever; and they pledge themselves now, as then, should any such be sent, not to employ or receive them into their establishments; and they trust that such a proposal will never again be submitted to the people of this colony by the British Government."
Another resolution was to the effect—
"That the meeting has further learned, with pain and dissatisfaction, that Her Majesty's Government have resolved, without consulting the sentiments of the colonists, to transport to the Cape of Good Hope, as a place of detention and punishment, a certain class of criminals convicted of treason and felony in Ireland; and that a memorial be presented to his Excellency the Governor, praying that, should any of those convicts arrive before Her Majesty's pleasure can be known, he will cause them to be removed from on board the transport directly to Robben Island, and there detained without communication with the colony, as the convicts were in former times, until Her Majesty's Government order their removal to such other place as they see fit."
There was something like English spirit in that. The colonists also sent a petition to the Queen, in which they stated—
"That the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, has never, at any time from its first settlement, received from Europe or elsewhere, any portion of its population out of prisons or penal establishments; but that, on the contrary, certain forms and provisions, as evidences of good character and securities for good behaviour, were required of all strangers permitted to enter or reside in it. That while thus endeavouring to protect the labouring classes of this community from so great an injury, your memorialists desire also to express to Your Majesty their regret that the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies should have thus dealt with the most vital domestic and personal interests of the colonists, without communicating his designs to the Executive Council of Government, or to the Legislative Council of the Cape of Good Hope, and in direct opposition to the official report and written opinion of his Excellency the Governor. Your Majesty's memorialists therefore humbly pray that this colony of the Cape of Good Hope and its dependencies may not be made a depôt penitentiary or place of confinement, or of punishment, or of refuge, for criminals of any description,
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whom they at the same time pledge themselves not to employ, or to receive into their establishments on any terms; and that Your Majesty would be graciously pleased to direct, that when questions of purely domestic policy, affecting the inhabitants of this colony, are under consideration, they shall be communicated to Her Majesty's loyal subjects hero through the constitutional channels, before being finally resolved on."
That was the second document of the kind. The third was a memorial to the Governor of the colony himself, in which the colonists appealed to his well-known sympathy with their remonstrances; but he did not know that there was any necessity for his reading any' extracts from that memorial to the House. One would think that the reception of three such documents as these—the resolution unanimously agreed to by a large public meeting, the petition to Her Majesty, and the memorial to the Governor, appealing to his own openly avowed sympathy with their remonstrances, might have affected the mind of the noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies, if they did not appal him. But it did no such thing. On the 15th of February last, in another place, the noble Earl simultaneously announced his plan of sending out convicts to the Cape, and his utter disregard of the torrent of indignation which such a scheme had called forth. He had lately learnt from the Governor of the Cape, that the announcement of the Government's intention to send convicts there had excited very general dissatisfaction. But the colonists should bear in mind that Parliament had voted 1,000,000 l. for the Kafir war; and, after making such sacrifices, this country was entitled to require from the colony a service which might be rendered without injury to its interests. Sic placuit. The noble Earl decided that the importation was for the good of the colony, and there were miles enough of ocean over which their complaint must be wafted, and strength enough in this country to stifle the complaint when it arrived. He thought that he had now proved the ungracious manner in which this act of the noble Earl had been done. He wished next to prove that the Cape had special grounds for remonstrating against an infliction of this sort. The Cape of Good Hope was an old and respectable Dutch settlement. It was colonised by the Dutch almost simultaneously with our emigrations to North America; and the New England emigrants having made a halting place of Holland, on their route to America, might be considered almost as half brothers in origin

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with the inhabitants of the Cape, as they certainly were in character. The Cape settlers bore; the reputation of having adopted a quiet, orderly, and religious tone of society; and an infusion of a similar character took place afterwards, in consequence of the revocation of the edict of Nantes, when a number of French Protestant refugees settled in the colony—men, described by Macaulay as a loss to their country, of intelligent minds, industrious habits, and austere morals. He believed that at this moment the Cape colonists preserved their peculiar character, and that they presented a very favourable contrast to certain stirring, money-making settlements, where the moral tone of society was more unscrupulously sacrificed to material interests. Prom what he had seen of the Cape merchants in London, he was induced to believe that this character of the colonists was correct. Certificates of good character used to be required before a person was permitted to reside in the colony; and he might mention some other minute regulations of a somewhat puritan character, if he did not think that he might provoke a sneer, though those regulations at least went to prove the sensitiveness of their morality. He would confidently ask the House, however, whether such feelings ought to be outraged or respected? But there were other grounds on which the inhabitants of the Cape stated their peculiar unfitness for being experimented upon with convicts. They maintained that they had a frontier surrounded by barbarous tribes—a very dangerous neighbourhood for convicts at large, with tickets of leave. They would probably become missionaries of some sort; but whether theirs was the kind of mission which this country would like to encourage was a different question—or whether it might not neutralise the effect of the present missions—or whether the peculiar choice of a Celtic infusion was a well-calculated admixture to the elements of trouble already there. Then, again, the colonists alleged as another peculiar ground of disqualification for the experiment, the sparseness of their population, giving even a small influx of convicts a dangerous proportion to the population they must mix with. The last proposition which set forth their own unfitness for the experiment was certainly a happy one, namely, that they were not yet prepared with gaols and police to receive the criminals sent, still less to be sufficient for the increase of crime to be expected
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from the infection of their example. He would now hasten to what he conceived to be the main point of the whole position, namely, that if this measure of the noble Earl were sanctioned by the House, it would amount to a retrograde movement in colonisation. There were two ideas of colonisation. One, treating a dependency like a slave; the other, as a child was treated by its parent, yet not in nonage, but after setting up for itself a separate establishment of its own, which ought to be worthy of its parent's house, yet incapable of injurious rivalry, bound by the indelible ties of language, origin, interest, and character. Such were our colonies in earlier times. Such was the origin of those settlements whose founders were headed by Lord Baltimore, and Penn; and such were those New England colonies which showed so strong a family resemblance to the Cape of Good Hope, that, reflecting on their present contrast, one could give the Cape the melancholy encouragement,
"Si qua fata aspera rumpas,
Tu Marcellus eris."
De Tocqueville said, speaking of the English colonies, that throughout their whole history they had flourished or declined, in proportion to the liberal terms of their original establishment. This remark, he thought that history would bear out; and this country had lately exhibited its desire to return to its earlier models in its projects for the settlement of Port Phillip and New Zealand. But there was a totally different system connected with the measure before the House. The conduct of our North American colonies showed what would be done if we tested too roughly the strength of those ties of affection which bound the colonies to the mother country. What a fatal time it was when we tried the patience of those colonies, and treated our children as if they were slaves? We tried the patience of the Americans in precisely the same way as the Cape of Good Hope had been tried by Earl Grey. England and America together had conquered Canada; and England demanded from America the expenses of that conquest in the shape of services to be rendered her, against the will of the colonists. So, in the Capo of Good Hope, England had defended the colony in a frontier war, and claimed the acceptance of convicts as a service in return. The parental interests alone were thought of, and the filial remonstrances were unheeded. As the Cape, however, was not yet strong enough, like

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America, to emancipate herself, the noble Earl would have all the advantage of the difference in the resources and circumstances of the two countries. America emancipated herself, saying, "I am not only willing, but anxious, to remain your child, but I am too strong to be your slave." She separated herself from England, and with her we lost all that was dignified and noble in our ideas of civilisation. We set about making elsewhere the cesspools which she had indignantly refused to tolerate, upwards of 100,000 convicts were collected in this country, and under the pressure of necessity our statesmen created the monstrum horrendum, a convict colony. Carlyle had related, and with just disgust, that when Louis XV. found that all remedies failed to cure the disease which he had contracted by his vices, he fell upon a device of the grossest superstition, and fancied he could restore health to his own vitiated body by debauching virgin purity.
"Mutato nomine, de te
Fabula narratur."
He was not in the slightest degree trespassing here on the question of transportation, which was but one illustration of the servile or debased system of colonisation; but if the House adopted the measure of the noble Earl, they would be adopting by this glaring example the whole principle of that debased system. Now, let the House count the cost of this system of colonisation. If we treated the colonists as slaves, we must keep them altogether; but if we treated them as children, they would be able to maintain their own establishments. The Cape of Good Hope had already refused a Militia Bill, saying, that if we allowed a free government, they would defend themselves; but if we insisted on their service, we should maintain them. If a comparison were made between the cost of freemen and of slaves, it would be found that a generous treatment of the colonies would be most economical also. But if we were to have this system at all, let us carry it out boldly and impartially; let us not begin with the weak. Let us go to Canada—to the West Indies—to New Zealand. Let us not begin with the Cape first, at all events. And now a word with respect to the justification which the noble Earl had assigned for this measure, namely, that England had spent a certain sum in the Kafir war, and, therefore, that we had a right to demand the services of the Cape. He would
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beg the attention of the House to the principle involved in this justification, which was not new, but which had been illustrated by other cases already. In a despatch addressed by the noble Earl to the Governor of New South Wales the other day, Earl Grey instructed him to use this argument, namely, that we had spent a good deal of money in the erection of gaols in New South Wales, and that, consequently, we were entitled to send them convicts—a sort of argument in a circle, convicts requiring gaols, and gaols convicts, and so on ad infinitum. But, in truth, we had no right to claim compensation from colonists of the Cape for the expenses of the Kafir war, as that war had been occasioned by our own misgovernment. It was just like a landlord claiming compensation from a tenant for the damage done by his game to his tenant's property. Earl Grey's description of the Kafir war, in his despatch to Sir H. Pottinger, of November, 1846, was to this effect:—
"It was a contest to be lamented, a great expenditure of public money, a wide destruction of private property, an interruption of the peaceful pursuits of the colonists, leaving an abiding sense of insecurity, and all the more lamentable disasters incident to war with a barbarous enemy."
Now, it was hardly to be wondered at, that, under these circumstances, the colonists should think that compensation was due to them; and Sir H. Pottinger, in March, 1847, supported that claim for compensation, to which he thought they had a right. When, however, Earl Grey said that he could not allow that claim, he never thought of saying that the claim was the other way—that had occurred to him since; but an inverted reason was quite enough for a strong Power to use towards a weak one. The compensation, however, which we now claimed from them, was of a kind which they said they were neither willing nor able to pay. He would ask the House whether it was not the most ungenerous thing ever heard of, for us to say that we had borne a great deal in this Kafir war, and that we should make the Cape colonists pay for it by calling upon them to render us servile services. He fully believed that the noble Lord at the head of the Government must feel his blood rise at being obliged to stand sponsor to an argument which, in proportion to its meanness, was so utterly at variance with his character. He was not alarmed lest the House should not agree with him; he did not so much fear opposition as apathy,

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Would that he could transport some hon. Gentlemen to the Cape of Good Hope!
"Segnius irritant animos demissa per aures.
Quam quæ sunt oculis subjecta fidelibus."
He should in such a case soon have indignation as strong or stronger than that expressed by the inhabitants of the Cape of Good Hope. If he were to conceive a torture worse than that of Tantalus, it would be that of men inspired with all the spirit of English freedom, yet spending their lives in the fetters of a distant, irresponsible, unheeding control, cutting themselves among the tombs of frustrated energies. They were all for government by public opinion. By what public opinion was the Cape governed? By their own? No! that was disregarded utterly. By what then, if that House were apathetic? He hoped that public opinion would be awake in that House. He appealed to them whether they would save a Colonial Minister and lose a colonial empire, and whether they would be content to adopt a retrograde movement in colonisation? He would ask them whether they saw no danger in allowing an irresponsible despotism—only by accidents, such as these golden opportunities brought to light—to grow up in the bosom of this country, silently eating, like a cancer, on the vitals of our liberties? He would conclude by reading the words of his Motion, which, being somewhat quaint, might perhaps excite a sneer, and which, as they stood, did seem to go beyond his argument into the merits of the convict system generally; but they were the words of the colonists themselves, and as such he would submit them to the House. The hon. Geutleman then moved the Address of which he bad given notice.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased out of consideration for the honourable pride and moral welfare of Her subjects, the people of South Africa, to order that this hitherto unpolluted Colony may be spared the disgrace and affliction of being made a receptacle for the convicted criminals of the Mother Country, whether as prisoners, free exiles, or holders of tickets of leave."
SIR G. GREYcould assure the hon. Gentleman that he was much mistaken if he anticipated anything like a sneer from him, either at the terms in which the Motion was expressed, or at the subject to which it related. He fully admitted the importance of the subject, and he agreed with the hon. Gentleman in many of the
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principles which he had laid down with reference to colonisation and the interests of our colonial empire. But at the same time he felt it his duty to warn the House against a hasty adoption of the resolution proposed by the hon. Gentleman; and he should, therefore, make some observations upon the substance of the resolution itself, and afterwards make some allusions to the particular charges which had been brought against his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department. It was with some surprise that he had heard the hon. Gentleman say that he would relieve him, as far as lay in his power, from the necessity of referring to the system of transportation, because the question before the House was quite separate from the question—"What were we to do with our convicts?" That surprise was certainly very much increased when he heard the hon. Gentleman's speech, which was directed against the whole system of transportation to the colonies, and which he termed a debased system of colonisation. He could certainly draw no other inference from the hon. Gentleman's argument against sending convicted felons to our colonies than that he was opposed to our system of transportation altogether; and sure he was that the House, if they adopted the resolution, would pronounce a verdict against the continuance of transportation. But his noble Friend the Member for Hertford bad but the other day contended that sentences of transportation should not only be continued, but should be bonâ fide carried into effect. Did the hon. Gentleman, he would ask, mean by his protest against a debased system of colonisation, that convicts under sentence of transportation should be shipped from this country, landed on the coast of Africa, or some desert and uninhabited shore, and then left to shift for themselves? The hon. Gentleman had stated that Earl Grey bad proposed a new experiment with respect to convicts, according to which, after having spent in hard labour here a portion of the period assigned as the duration of their sentence, they were to be removed to the colonies with tickets of leave. He did not understand the hon. Gentleman to object to the prior stages of punishment, but to the manner in which the convicts were dealt with afterwards. In 1846 transportation was found to have produced evils of such magnitude in Van Diemen's Land, that it was found necessary to suspend it altogether for two years; and it was this

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that had occasioned a necessity for a change. Was the hon. Gentleman prepared to say that a change in our criminal law must take place, and that sentences of transportation must not he passed any more; or did he mean to contend that the former law must still be carried into effect by transporting a mass of 4,000 or 5,000 prisoners yearly to one colony, without having undergone any previous punishment or reformatory process, corrupting each other till they became the very essence of iniquity, and finally being turned loose on society as emancipists? In truth, the Motion of the hon. Gentleman was but an illustration of the difficulties which he (Sir G. Grey) had felt, and continued to feel, with respect to the means of carrying out the sentence of transportation. All he asked of the House was, that if they were resolved to abolish the system of transportation they would do so openly and avowedly, and not by a side wind; and he trusted, therefore, that they would not vote for the present Motion unless they were prepared to draw a distinction, which the hon. Gentleman did not draw, between the Cape of Good Hope and other colonies. He (Sir G. Grey) was by no means prepared to say that there were not evils connected with transportation; there must be evils connected with the infusion into any society of persons tainted with crime. The object, however, now was, to remove this class of criminals—a very small class compared with those who were annually liberated in this country and restored to society—and effect their dispersion among communities whore they might obtain a livelihood by honest labour. The hon. Gentleman had said that he had been obliged to make his speech without being able to refer to some papers for which he had moved. He regretted that this was the case, because he was quite sure that the hon. Gentleman, with his candour, would have spared some of the imputations which he had thrown upon his noble Friend. The hon. Gentleman said that Earl Grey sent out the convicts without consulting the colonists; secondly, that he had done so against their remonstrances; and, thirdly, that he had instructed the Governor to test the sensation created by that Act, and to send home the results. The hon. Gentleman said that the results had been in his possession two months, though he could not get the despatches; but he did not understand the hon. Gentleman to say that he was purposely misled by his hon. Friend
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the Under Secretary for the Colonies. There was an imputation, however, of intentional delay, to which he should not have thought it worth while to advert, had it not been received with a cheer. He held in his hand the original despatch containing the three memorials referred to by the hon. Gentleman, dated respectively the 19th and 22nd of December, and the 5th of January, and which were received on the 14th of March. Those despatches were about to be laid on the table; and had the hon. Gentleman waited he would have perceived that the imputation which he had thrown out was not warranted.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, the papers to which he had alluded were in the Morning Chronicle of the 20th of January, and Earl Grey had stated them to have been in his possession on the 15th of February.
SIR G. GREYcould only say that they were all received by his noble Friend on the 14th of March. Did the hon. Gentleman mean to say that the despatches of the Governor were in Earl Grey's possession at the time which he had mentioned?
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, he meant the memorials.
SIB G. GREYsaid, the hon. Gentleman must be aware that his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Colonies could not produce extracts from newspapers. He could only produce what had been received officially from the Governor of the colony. He admitted that his noble Friend had endeavoured to find other outlets for convicts besides Van Diemen's Land, and he consulted the colonies for that purpose. He sent a circular letter to ask them whether they were willing to receive convicts, being desirous not to take any final steps before the wishes of the colonists had been consulted. The hon. Gentleman the Member for North Staffordshire went on to say that Earl Grey not only did not consult the colonists, but that he persisted in sending out convicts, notwithstanding their remonstrances. Now, the fact was, that his noble Friend, having sent this circular letter, without waiting for an answer from the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope, directed a ship to proceed with convicts from Bermuda to the Cape, but he did not persevere in sending them out after remonstrances had been received; and he (Sir G. Grey) was not prepared to say that his noble Friend would persist in sending them after a decided expression of opinion on the part of the colo-

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nists against their transmission to the colony. He would shortly state the circumstances under which the ship was sent from Bermuda to the Cape of Good Hope. He had stated in a recent debate that great difficulties had been experienced in carrying out the sentence of transportation in consequence of peculiar circumstances which had recently occurred in Ireland, which had led to a great increase in the number of convicts in that country within the last two years. The average yearly return of the number of convicts sentenced to transportation previous to that period was about 600, while last year the number was 2,698. So far from any desire being entertained by his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Office to force convicts on the colonies, he (Sir G. Grey) was considerably embarrassed with the remonstrances received from the Colonial Office against the number sent, and representing the great indisposition of the colonies to receive convicts. He had repeatedly stated, that as long as the law imposed the punishment of transportation, it was essential that the sentence should in one way or other be carried out; and he hoped that it might be ultimately carried out in a way that would remove the great objections which were so strongly felt in many colonies to receive convicts. In the mean time, while they were considering the steps which should be taken for this purpose, remonstrances were received from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and from some Members of Parliament connected with that country, complaining that the gaols were crowded to such an extent as to be overflowing With convicts under sentence of transportation, and that there was a probability of disease of an alarming character breaking out in them. What did the Government do? They made every exertion to establish depôts for the reception of convicts sentenced to transportation, and which the law sanctioned them in doing in Ireland. One establishment for this purpose had been formed on an extensive scale at Spike Island. In the first place 600 convicts were placed there; the number was then increased to 800. He hoped soon they would be enabled to increase the number to 1,400. At the present time 2,000 convicts under sentence of transportation were confined in the different depôts in Ireland. A Bill was passed by Parliament about two years ago, by which they were enabled to send convicts from Ireland to Bermuda and Gibraltar, which
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was formerly not the case, as only English and Scotch convicts were sent to those places. The result was, that in 1847 the number of convicts from Ireland sent to Bermuda was, he believed, rather more than 700. In the course of last summer the Governor of Bermuda, Captain Elliott, wrote a letter, dated the 27th of June, 1848, to his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Office, an extract from which he would read to the House:—
"I avail myself of this occasion to solicit the compassionate. attention of Her Majesty's Government, as soon as any favourable conjunction should present itself, to the case of many other Irish prisoners recently arrived here. It will be remarked with anxiety, on examining the list of 704 prisoners sent from Ireland in the Medway and Bangalore, that many of them were convicted of stealing food, and agrarian offences—the first no doubt chiefly attributable to the dreadful calamity which befel the poorer classes of people during the last two years; and the last in a high degree to the inflammatory practices of others, in the time of their desperate need. Perhaps Her Majesty's Government may be pleased, taking all these circumstances into consideration, on the return of a state of comparative tranquillity in Ireland, to permit me to appoint a commission in this colony for selecting individuals from the Irish prisoners whom it may be permissable to recommend for removal to Australia, on the ticket of leave or conditional pardon. Those prisoners are for the most part friendless men, in humble stations of life; and your Lordship will feel that they are entitled to any extenuating considerations which I can advance in their behalf, whilst they are conducting themselves steadily and submissively at this depôt."
His noble Friend had sent this despatch to him, and had consulted him as to the suggestions of the Governor with respect to the disposal of the prisoners. He (Sir G. Grey) answered—
"That, regard being had to the nature of the offences of which the convicts specially referred to by the Governor were convicted, and to the circumstances under which their offences were committed, and to the favourable report of their subsequent conduct, the inquiry suggested by the Government might be properly instituted with the view to the selection for removal with tickets of leave to Van Diemen's Land of such of those prisoners as, upon the result of the inquiry, may be considered fit objects for such an indulgence. The selection, however, was not to comprise prisoners who had been convicted of personal violence or outrage."
Soon after this, another letter was received from the Governor of Bermuda, as to a class of Irish convicts which had been sent to that colony, a great many of whom had not arrived to man's estate. In that despatch he stated—
"Poor and scanty food and the hard things of their infancy have for the most part left these lads with a lower stature and more childish ap-

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pearance than their age alone would explain, though it will shock Her Majesty's Government to perceive that twelve of them are under sixteen years of age, and that one of thirteen years old has been sentenced to fifteen years' transportation for sheep-stealing. Sharp private whipping, as boys are usually corrected, and a brief season of separate confinement on short diet and hard work, under good guidance and instruction, would surely be a more appropriate punishment for these boys than transportation to the hulks. The reflexion of their condition on release from such association and training is appalling, both for themselves and society. I have ordered that these lads should be kept separate from the rest of the prisoners, and not be allowed to work in gangs with grownup men."
Earl Grey allowed the Governor of the colony to appoint the proposed commission, with a view, if the report should be satisfactory, of sending a certain number of these convicts with tickets of leave to one of the colonies. At that time the pressure was very severe from other quarters. It became necessary to send to Bermuda a portion of the convicts of Great Britain, in order to remove a certain number who had undergone a probationary part of their sentence by being imprisoned at Millbank or Pentonville. His noble Friend also received further remonstrances from Van Diemen's Land, against a large number of convicts being sent there. It then occurred to his noble Friend, that an experiment might be made at the Cape with respect to the class of convicts to which allusion had been made in the letters to which he had referred, and that it could not be made under more favourable circumstances, although the remonstrances to which the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Staffordshire adverted had certainly not then been received. The parties who had so remonstrated were probably not aware that the convicts to be sent there were not tainted with the crimes for which ordinary convicts were made to undergo the sentence of transportation. He thought, therefore, that the Government might be justified in selecting a certain number of youths, and others, who had been sentenced for the first time for offences of a minor character, so as to make the experiment in a manner which would in the least degree he revolting to the feelings of the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, and, at the same time, in a way calculated to prove of benefit to the convicts themselves, by placing them in a position to exercise habits of honest industry. Before those convicts were sent to the Cape of Good Hope, the Governor of Bermuda received a communication from the Rev. Mr. Ken-
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nedy, the Catholic chaplain to the convicts there, in reference to a few cases in the list of transports which did not come within the class which the Governor had been instructed by the Government at home to refer to commissioners for examination; and on being satisfied that it was desirable that those cases should be inquired into, he directed that they should be investigated by the same board. He hoped that the hon. Gentleman would listen to this letter from the Roman Catholic chaplain at Bermuda as to these men. The letter itself was addressed to the Governor, Capt. Elliott:—
"Sir—I thank you most sincerely for your prompt attention to my recommendation of those few men whom I wished to be added to your number of convicts for the Cape of Good Hope, on terms of conditional pardon. I have every reason to suppose they will there he good and faithful subjects of Her Majesty, and useful members of society. The prisoners sent here within the last two years came under no ordinary circumstances; many, very many, for thefts, to which they were driven by dire distress and famine; and many also for political offences committed under fear and at times of excitement. They were mere creatures of others, entirely ignorant of what they themselves were about. I would further suggest to your Excellency the usefulness, as well as the charity, in persevering in the wise and humane course taken by you with respect to those convicts who are about being sent hence. You are aware that there are many others here of the same class of persons offering to our observation as fair a prospect for the future, and who, if sent, will hereafter be as favourably impressed. I entreat the same merciful consideration towards such others as may be deemed by those in charge of them as deserving of mercy."
He was not reading those papers with the view of in any way palliating crime, but to show that, in consequence of the peculiar circumstances which have recently existed in Ireland, sentences of transportation have been passed, perhaps necessarily, which, under ordinary circumstances, would not have been inflicted; but if these parties had been pardoned, and sent back to Ireland, it might have led to the feeling that crime might be committed with impunity, and that the sentences passed would not be carried out. The Government, upon those representations, suggested a course with reference to this class of convicts which they thought was more free from objection than any other that could be adopted, as these convicts were the least likely to prove in any way injurious to the Cape; but, on the contrary, might ultimately be found to become a useful class of colonists. He would read another extract from a subsequent communication which the

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Governor of Bermuda had made to the Colonial Office:—
"The Deputy Superintendent will cause the lists of the prisoners, who came out in the Medway and the Bangalore to be carefully examined, and will prepare a list of candidates for removal to Australia on the ticket of leave, observing the following rules in the preparation of the lists.…. I involve in this list all the prisoners convicted, for the first time, of the offences of sheep stealing, cattle stealing, larceny, or robbery, without violence on the person, putting at the head of the list the name of the prisoner best reported upon in the character columns from England, and proceeding with the classification by that rule."
In a subsequent despatch he stated that—
"They should include lads who had not been convicted more than twice of robbery, unattended with violence to the person."
Such were the circumstances under which the convicts were sent to the Cape. He admitted that remonstrances had been subsequently received by the Colonial Office from the Cape of Good Hope, of the disregard of which the hon. Gentleman now complained; but orders for sending those convicts had been sent out before the remonstrances were received. But notwithstanding the exaggerated feelings of the inhabitants of the Cape at present, he hoped, upon the arrival of these convicts, and upon reflection on the part of the colonists, after they should be made acquainted with the real facts of the case, that they would be induced to admit, under less excited feelings, that these persons might become useful members of society upon their being properly distributed throughout the colony, and that ultimately, by honest industry, they might be a valuable acquisition to the colonists themselves. He would also state without re-servo, that, in the ship which was now on its passage from Bermuda to the Cape of Good Hope, there were some convicts of a different class. One of these, whose state of health was such that the Government had been assured, on medical authority, that if he remained at Bermuda his life would be endangered, was John Mitchel, who had been convicted of a treasonable conspiracy, and who would complete his sentence at the Cape, if he reached that colony alive. He had already stated that his noble Friend, so far from having persisted in spite of the feelings of the inhabitants of the Cape of Good Hope, was disposed to concede to their opinions and remonstrances until they had ample time for reflection, and for experience of the plan, so far as it had been carried out, and
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that no more convicts would be sent there until there had been time for such experience. It never had been intended, nor was it then intended, to act against the unanimous feelings of the inhabitants of the colony. It was not worth while to engage in conflicts with the inhabitants of the colony in a matter of that kind. Before he sat down he would remind the hon. Gentleman, that when he went back to the early history of that colony, and described the high morality and principle which distinguished it, and the character of its institutions, it was only recently that slavery was abolished there, as it was in our own West Indian colonies, and that it had been one of the domestic institutions of the settlement, and in consequence of its being put an end to, a large section of the colonists moved beyond its boundaries. When, therefore, the hon. Gentleman said that society was not in any way tainted there, he could not help reminding him that the abolition of slavery in it was only of the same date with that in our West Indian colonies. He would only say, that he should deeply deplore any steps being taken to produce in that or any other colony anything which would check the diffusion of British habits, British principles, and British institutions. He did not know whether he need say more. He had stated the circumstances under which the convicts now on their passage had been sent from Bermuda to the Cape, and had described the character of these convicts, and also the inconvenience which was experienced by the Government, from the remonstrances of the colonies, as to the continuance of transportation. He believed that the apprehensions entertained at the Cape and in other places were, to a great extent, exaggerated, and that the evils might be greatly diminished by an increase in the number of colonies to which convicts could be sent, which would facilitate their dispersion, and prevent a largo accumulation in any one colony. The hon. Gentleman was a magistrate, and, probably, took an active part at the quarter-sessions where the sentences of transportation were passed upon convicts; he would, therefore, suggest to him to bear in mind, when such sentences were passed—for a large discretion in that respect was placed with the magistrates and the judges—that he imposed on the Government the necessity of sending convicts in some stage or the other of their sentence to one of our colonies. He would

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remind the hon. Gentleman that he had taken a very unfair view of the case in assuming that the whole of the convicted criminals of this country were sent out to the colonies. He held in his hand some returns which had been laid on the table relative to the number of criminal convictions in England and Wales, which, however, did not include those from Ireland. It appeared that in the year 1847 there were sentenced to transportation in England, Wales, and Scotland, 2,726 males and females. With regard to England and Wales, the great majority of the convicts had been sentenced to transportation at the quarter-sessions. Of this number of 2,726, however, there were 326 too old to be sent out, and others were too infirm; so that the number which would be required actually to be sent out of Great Britain would be between 2,300 and 2,400. But what was the number of persons sentenced to terms of imprisonment for periods varying from three years to a few months or weeks, and afterwards returned to society at home? The number of persons so sentenced in the same year at the various assizes and sessions throughout the country was 15,956. The number of persons summarily convicted before magistrates was 68,641, all of whom, after the expiration of the periods of their imprisonment, were returned again to society, making a total of persons imprisoned, of 84,597. He hoped, therefore, that it would not go forth to the colonies that this country was proceeding to get rid of all its criminal population by sending them to the colonies, our wish being to send as small a number as possible to each. He trusted that the number of persons convicted and sentenced to transportation might be hereafter less than it now was; but, as he had stated the other day, he believed that this would be a valuable punishment to retain. He trusted, therefore, that the hon. Gentleman would be satisfied, on that occasion, on the part of the colony which he that night represented, as well as of the other colonies which he had included in his observations, that the moral injury likely to result from the system now adopted, was not so great as he had represented, and that convicts sent out with tickets of leave, after having undergone a part of their punishment, the number to each colony being limited, might be disposed and enabled to earn an honest livelihood; and that when they began life anew at the
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end of their sentences, they might add to the prosperity of the colony. He would not refer to the observations which the hon. Gentleman made as to the original settlement of the North American colonies, beyond reminding him that they were not altogether free from the taint of convicts. He would conclude by saying, that unless they resorted to capital punishments, or to perpetual imprisonment, while he admitted they should yield, as far as possible, to the feelings of the colonists on the subject, he trusted that Parliament would not hastily deprive the Government of the power of carrying into effect sentences of transportation.
MR. HUMEsaid, the simple question was, would Government insist upon sending convicts to our colonies against the express desire of those colonies? The hon. Member for North Staffordshire, who raised this important point, had carefully endeavoured to keep the question of transportation separate from the question before the House; but the hon. Member had felt it necessary to introduce that question, with reference to the difficulties created by the overcrowded state of our gaols. He (Mr. Hume) had for many years past endeavoured to impress this particular subject upon the successive Governments of the country. Let him now repeat emphatically that the grand question of all in relation to this subject was how to lessen the amount of crime in this country. He should support the Motion before the House, because he was satisfied that, if carried, it would force the Government to apply itself to the most effective moans of reducing the amount of crime, and, as one of the most effective means, to the extension of education to all classes—to each individual of the community. He did not condemn transportation as a principle, but he certainly considered that the House should exact from the Government a distinct assurance that convicts should not be forced upon colonies against the will of these colonies. He had no hesitation in expressing the belief that, under a proper system the transmission of convicts to consenting colonies might be rendered most beneficial at once to the convicts and to the colonies; but at present there was no Minister here—no Department whose business it was to make a proper classification of the prisoners previous to their departure. The whole thing was rank confusion. What was eminently needed was, a Minister of Justice, one of whose leading duties

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it should be to superintend such a classification of prisoners. Had there been such a Minister here, he would never have sent out to Bermuda as convicts, as there had been sent, numbers of boys of tender age, quite incapable of the hard labour to which convicts in that island were subjected. How was it proposed to remedy that overflow of our gaols which everywhere prevailed? It would never do, when men had once been sentenced by the laws, to let the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, or the Home Secretary in England, discharge them from prison merely because there was no room for them in the gaols. Here were we spending six or seven millions a year for religious instruction; surely this expenditure ought to be so managed as to reduce the amount of crime amongst us. There must be something done, and, in order to compel the Government to do this something, he should vote for the Motion.
MAJOR BLACKALLagreed with much that had fallen from the hon. Gentleman who had brought the subject under the attention of the House, as to the want of classification; and this had particularly come under his own observation in Ireland; but he did not believe, if the resolution was adopted, any great advantage would result. He knew in Ireland there was an entire want of classification of the prisoners sentenced to transportation, and, above all, when the gaols were full, where young and old were placed together, without any regard to the nature of the crimes of which they had been found guilty. As to the colonies saying they would rather not have these convicts—if that plea was in every instance to be admitted, there would be no place to which they could send them. The state of the convicts proposed to be sent to the Cape of Good Hope had been alluded to by the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department; and it appeared that they were not persons of general bad habits, but had, generally speaking, only been guilty of one crime, and he was satisfied, if they were sent to the Cape of Good Hope, so far from doing mischief, they would produce good. They had recently extended the boundaries of that colony, and before they could expect to colonise these districts, they must carry on several Government works, such as the formation of roads and the erection of forts to prevent the incursions of the Kafirs. All this might be advantageously
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done by a good system of convict labour, which would be under a strict system of military discipline. By doing this, they would ultimately open a new country to the enterprise of the colonists.
MR. AGLIONBYfelt that if the Motion was carried or not, the result would be beneficial, He regretted that a greater number of Members did not seem disposed to take part in the debate, as colonial matters had been too long neglected in that House. He did not wish to bring any acrimonious charges against one Cabinet Minister or another, but it was most desirable that the Members of that House should take an active part in controlling matters connected with the colonies; and in this feeling he was satisfied that the public deeply shared. He thought that if the Motion of the hon. Member for North Staffordshire was carried in that House as the adoption of a permanent principle, much good would be effected, for the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary admitted it, as he understood him, to be a good one. [Sir G. GREY: NO, no!] The hon. Member read the Motion and said, he could not find a word in it to which the Government could object. He further understood the right hon. Baronet to say, that it was the intention of the Government not to send out convicts in any shape whatever, either on punishment or on tickets of leave, unless they had previously received the consent of the colony to which they were to be sent; and yet it appeared as if the right hon. Baronet could not have meant that, because such a course would have put an end to transportation altogether, for he could not conceive any colony so much debased as to express a wish that convicts should be sent among their population. It might be possible, indeed, that a number of colonists whose only care was to make money might petition for convicts; but how was it to be ascertained that the really moral and respectable inhabitants of that colony desired them to be sent? He would not now go into the general question of transportation, for it was of infinitely too great importance to be discussed; but the subject was one which the Government and the Legislature must take into serious consideration, and form some decided plan which should not be subject to fluctuation as this or that Minister held office, but one that should be settled, and in which the public would have confidence. The right hon. Baronet had asked what was to be done with these convicts—were

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they to be turned loose into this country? He (Mr. Aglionby) thought the danger infinitely less if they were turned loose here, in the midst of an immense population, where society was established and civilised, with an efficient police, and means for keeping them in control, than it would be if they were sent into a small, thinly scattered community, with a defective police. He regretted to hear the right hon. Baronet say, that he could not see the injury that would be done to the colony by sending out the particular class of convicts he named; and he begged to refer him to the information received from South Australia and New Zealand, in illustration of the effects that had been produced there by sending out convicted felons not undergoing punishment. The experiment that had been tried on what were termed the Parkhurst boys, who were sent to Australia in 1843, ought to teach the Government a lesson. These "seedlings of crime," as they were termed, so far from responding to the expectation that had been formed from their careful training in the Parkhurst prison, exhibited every degree of refinement in vice and wickedness as soon as they arrived at their destination. The report which had been sent home to the Government by Mr. G. Clarke, the protector of aborigines in Australia, stated that the arrival of these Parkhurst boys in that colony had proved more injurious than was imaginable; they absconded from their employments and went to live in the bush with the natives, who thought they derived considerable advantage from having Europeans amongst them, but all they obtained was a deeper knowledge of vice; and it was a common trick for these boys to write obscene words on paper and to give them to the natives, who handed them in at the shops as explanatory of what they wanted to purchase. Of the two methods of dealing with convicts, it was by far the more dangerous plan to transport them, instead of retaining them at home, where they would always remain under the surveillance of experienced and competent officers.
MR. SCOTTthought that the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary had misunderstood the object with which the Motion had been brought forward. His hon. Friend the Member for North Staffordshire contended that it was not fair, just, or politic to send the crime of the mother country to an unpolluted colony, and that although the Government might have the right to do so, it was not wise or right to
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enforce that right against the will of the colonists. That convicts should be employed upon public works in such places as Bermuda or Gibraltar was not complained of; but the question was whether we had a right to inflict upon colonial society the offscourings of our own people, and send those whom we would not permit to mingle with the population at home to contaminate innocent communities. He would suggest whether it would not be more fair and just that convicts who had worked out their terms on the public works should be required to pay their passage money home instead of being sent to mingle with the colonists—unless, indeed, the colonists were willing to receive them. The amount of crime and destitution in this country—and there were nearly 2,000,000 of paupers in the workhouses, or receiving relief—would of necessity cause an increase in transportation. He had no doubt that the right hon. Baronet opposite, and the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Department, would do all they could to prevent the contamination of the colonies by too great an influx of convicts; still it should be remarked, that in one colony, Van Diemen's Land, three-fourths of the adult population were cither convicts or persons whose sentences had expired.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that he should not have taken part in the debate had not the meaning of his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary been apparently misunderstood by the hon. Member for Cocker-mouth, although it had been very clearly put before the House. The hon. Gentleman seemed to suppose that the purport of the Motion was to declare that no convicts were to be sent to the colonies without the consent of the colonists, and that his right hon. Friend agreed in that construction of the Motion. What his right hon. Friend said was very different; and he objected to the Motion, in the first place, because, from the use of the terms pollution and disgrace, in respect of transportation to any colonies, it might be inferred that transportation was for ever to be abolished. That was a just inference on the part of his right hon. Friend; but what he said in relation to the immediate subject of discussion, on the case of the transportation of a certain number of convicts to the Cape of Good Hope was, that, supposing there was a general and universal feeling against transportation taking place in that colony, and that sentiment were persisted in, it would not be advisable or right to continue it.

1399
That was also the opinion of his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department, and was the general feeling of the Government. He trusted that, so far as the object of the present Motion was concerned, the result had been satisfactory to the hon. Mover, and that, after what bad been said with respect to transportation to the Cape of Good Hope, he would not seek to place upon the journals of the House a general declaration leading to the inference that if any colony should hereafter declare an objection, that would be sufficient to cause the discontinuance of transportation. To that length he (Lord J. Russell) was certainly not prepared to go, as it would be equivalent to a discontinuance of transportation for ever; for he had no doubt that in no colony whatever would there be any difficulty in getting up a petition, numerously signed, against transportation. With respect to the general subject, it was far too vast and wide to enter upon at the present moment. He would merely remark that the opinions of the hon. Member for Berwickshire who had last spoken appeared to be the reverse of those which had been hitherto held on this question. The general opinion, so far as it was favourable to transportation at all, had been this—that persons who had been guilty of any crime, and who had been convicted in this country, generally, indeed almost always found, after leaving prison, great difficulty, from the general supply of labour, in obtaining any employment; and therefore it was thought desirable that a portion of their punishment should take place in some distant colony, where labour, instead of being in abundance, as here, was in demand, and where these persons would not be subjected to the difficulties which persons having lost character experienced in obtaining employment in this country. But the hon. Gentleman made a proposal precisely the reverse, and said, let the convicts work out their punishment in the colonies, and then let them pay their passage home.
MR. SCOTTexplained. What he said was, that they should pay their passage out of their earnings while employed on the Government works, as they were now employed at Bermuda and Gibraltar.
LORD J. RUSSELL: And to return here. But the course that was advisable with respect to Gibraltar and Bermuda would not be so as regarded New South Wales, for example. On the contrary, that being a colony where labour was in con-
1400
siderable demand, it was desirable that such persons should be induced to remain there, in order that they might at once contribute their labour, and preserve the chance of regaining the character they had lost. In these colonies convicts who were well disposed never found a difficulty in obtaining employment. He remembered the case of a man who had happily profited by the moral and religious instruction he had obtained at Pentonville, and who obtained employment in a shop in this town. He continued to act respectably and honestly; but unfortunately some of his former associates found him out, and they did what under such circumstances was always done, they gave information to the master of the shop, and induced him to suspect the honesty of the man, and to turn him off. No resource was then left to this man but to go back to his old associates. Now, in the colonies, where the demand for labour was great, persons situated as in the case he had referred to would find employment. He did not, however, wish to continue this subject, and would only express the hope that the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Staffordshire having obtained what he required, would not persist in his Motion.
MR. DISRAELI: I do not think, after what has fallen from the noble Lord and from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, that my hon. Friend would be justified in pressing this Motion to a division. The hon. Member has made a most able statement, and has called the attention of the House to a subject which I am sure will receive the consideration its importance deserves. My hon. Friend has said, that it is not his intention to open up a discussion on the general principle of secondary punishment. I think it would be very inadvisable that any such debate should take place on the present occasion. If the subject of secondary punishment is not to be made a matter of debate to-night, every thing that my hon. Friend wishes has been conceded by the Government in a fair and frank manner. There is, however, one observation I wish to make, and that is, to express a hope that if this great question is really to be considered and decided on, the Government will not come to any determination respecting it on particular grounds, such as particular expenditure, as in the case of the Kafir war, or any thing of that kind. I trust they will take a general view of the question, and

1401
be guided by principle only, for I think it would be wrong to say, that any policy should be adopted by the mother country which would be regarded by the colonies as an infliction. I think my hon. Friend was, to some extent, misunderstood with respect to the documents to which he referred. He alluded to a memorial from the inhabitants of the Cape, and also to a despatch enclosing that memorial to Earl Grey. I believe that those documents appeared in the public journals in January last; and, bearing in mind that they were referred to in another place by the Secretary of State for the Colonies in February last, I think my hon. Friend was justified in the course he took. Under these circumstances, I protest against the Secretary for the Home Department saying that the documents in question were nothing more than extracts from newspapers. Surely they were public and official documents, otherwise they would not have been referred to in another place by so responsible an authority as a Secretary of State. I am obliged to my hon. Friend for the very able manner in which he has brought forward this question; and as his object has been gained by directing the attention of the House to it, and eliciting an expression of opinion from the Ministry, I think the better course by far would be, not to proceed further with the Motion.
MR. HAWESsaid, the documents in question did not reach the Colonial Office before the 14th of March, and therefore it was impossible before then to lay on the table of the House documents which, up to that time, had not been sent officially to the Government.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, that Earl Grey was reported in Hansard* to have said on the 15th of February that he had lately received from the Governor of the Cape of Good Hope an intimation that the Government intention to send convicts there had excited dissatisfaction.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the particular documents which had been alluded to by the hon. Gentleman had not been received at that time; but he was not aware whether or not there had been a previous despatch sent, stating that dissatisfaction had been excited on the subject.
* Parliamentary Debates (Third Series), Vol. cii. p. 752.
MR. HEYWOODsaid, that there was one colony which was desirous of obtaining convict labour, and that was the Mosquito territory. When he was in Jamaica two months ago, he met there Mr. Christie, the Consul of Mosquitia, who was on a visit to Sir Charles Grey, to endeavour to obtain convict labour for the completion of the public works at Grey town, the seaport of the Mosquito district. A meeting of several governors of the West India Islands had also been held lately to discuss the proper colony to which they should send their convicts. He appealed to hon. Members who were acquainted with courts of justice, in favour of the maintenance of transportation, which was a punishment regarded in a far more serious light by criminals than imprisonment. He considered that arrangements might be made by Government with colonies for the employment of convicts in public works.
MR. ADDERLEY, in reply, disclaimed all intention of making a personal attack upon Earl Grey. He was not actuated by any personal motives, for he had not the honour of the noble Earl's acquaintance; but had brought forward this Motion purely on behalf of the colonists, whose remonstrances had boon disregarded. It appeared to him that the whole of the argument of the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary had been addressed rather to the interests of this country than having any reference to those of the colonies. But as he (Mr. Adderley) now distinctly understood from the right hon. Baronet opposite, that the sending of these 250 convicts to the Cape was upon a great emergency, and if he had not actually given a pledge that no more convicts would be sent to the Cape, he had at least said that any remonstrance from the colonists against the sending of convicts would be duly considered by the Government: having obtained that point, he was satisfied without pressing his Motion to a division.
SIR G. GREYwished it to be clearly understood that his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies, having thought it advisable to consult the colonies with respect to the introduction of convicts into them, and having intimated his intention not to send convicts to colonies not now receiving them until he had ascertained their opinion, did not intend to disregard the wishes of the colonists. The hon. Gentleman the Member for North Staffordshire was right in saying, that any

1403
remonstrances from the colonies upon the subject would meet with due consideration at the hands of the Government; but he (Sir G. Grey) would give no pledge that a remonstrance from a colony would stop transportation to it, as there might be a difference of opinion in a colony on the subject. The despatch lying before him stated, that the number sent to the Cape was 300; that there were nine prisoners, also Irish, recommended by Mr. Kennedy, the Roman Catholic priest, on account of their good conduct; that the persons sent had been selected with great care, as those who seemed to deserve such a boon; and attention had been directed in the selection to their health and strength, so that they might be no burden to the colony. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

MINISTERS' MONEY (IRELAND).
MR. W. FAGAN, in rising to submit to the House the Motion of which he had given notice, said, that he regretted much that after the report of the Select Committee, appointed last Session, so important a Motion was left to a private Member of this House, and that the Government was not prepared to take it up. The result of the inquiry last Session had induced the people of Ireland to look on the tax called ministers' money as virtually abolished, and their unwillingness to pay was tenfold increased. [The hon. Member then proceeded to read three letters he had received since the commencement of this Session, two from the Rev. J. Elmes, the Protestant incumbent of St. John's, in the city of Limerick, and one from a Roman Catholic clergyman, all bearing on the subject in question, and complaining of the difficulties connected with the collection of the tax.] With such strong pressure on the part of a Protestant incumbent deriving his income from the obnoxious tax, independently of still stronger pressure on the part of the Catholics of Ireland, he could not without dereliction of duty refuse to submit his Motion to the House after the Government had declined to take it up. Last year when he brought forward a similar Motion, he ventured to suggest that the substitute for ministers' money would be found in the revenue of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and he endeavoured to show that if the annual sales of perpetuities were reckoned an income, as they ought to be, there would be ample surplus to provide 15,000 l. a year
1404
in lieu of their present income, for the incumbents of the eight corporate towns in Ireland that now pay the obnoxious tax. It was a source of gratification to him to find that the report of the Select Committee concurred with him, who was the first to suggest it, that in the ecclesiastical revenues was to be found the fund from which the substitute was to be formed. But before he went into that most important branch of the subject, he was anxious to show how far his statement last Session of the grievous nature of this tax was corroborated by the evidence before the Select Committee. He stated last year that from the very enactment of ministers' money, in the reign of Charles II., it was considered a hateful tax; and he proved that by showing, that amidst all his cares and troubles, James II., his successor, thought it wise policy to abolish it. He showed that from its very partial operation, being confined to eight corporate towns, it was a far more obnoxious impost than vestry cess, and yet vestry cess or church rate was abolished because of its being odious to the Catholic population of Ireland. He showed that it was more unjust than tithes, because tithes rested on the common law, and originated in voluntary assessment for the support of the bishops, the clergy, the repairs of the church, and the maintenance of the poor; while ministers' money was the enactment of a Protestant Parliament passed five years after the Restoration, and imposed on eight Catholic corporate cities, while the Protestant cities were exempt from the tax. He stated also last year that the Protestant clergy who were the recipients of this tax were anxious for its abolition. In this statement he was fully borne out by the evidence before the Select Committee. The Rev. Mr. Elmes, of Limerick, whoso letters he had already read, was examined before that Committee, and he answered to a question by him (Mr. Fagan—
"Why is the collection so deficient on the now valuation?—Simply for this reason, that I am reluctant to oppress the poor people who owe me the money according to law, and that I could not venture to destrain them, even if I were inclined. I am not inclined to do it, because they are mostly very poor and distressed people. If I were to venture to distrain them, there would be resistance; the law probably would be violated, and disturbance would ensue. "
Again he is asked—
"Is it your opinion this tax is exceedingly ob-

1405
noxious to the people?—I am not only of opinion that it is obnoxious, but I know it to be exceedingly obnoxious, and it is not more obnoxious to them than it is to the clergy—it is equally disagreeable to me to exact it, as it is to them to pay it."
He is then asked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvan, who was chairman of the Committee—
"In considering what substitute you would apply for ministers' money, do you think the Roman Catholic population should be entirely relieved from it?—They should be entirely relieved from it; so far as my own opinion is concerned, and not only the occupying tenant but also the landlord, because the occupying tenant in many instances is merely a person striving to obtain a livelihood for himself and his family; and differing in creed from us as they do in 99 instances out of 100, I consider we are not authorised by anything contained in the sacred Scriptures to levy a tax upon them for the support of our Church."
Again he is asked—
"Does not the same objection apply to the whole Church establishment?—No. I think the tithes differ materially. Tithes are part and parcel of the rating of the land; if the land is free from tithe, the landlord is so much benefited by it, but that is not the case with regard to ministers' money levied on houses."
He is then asked—
"Do you not imagine that houses would set higher if they were relieved from the charge of ministers' money?—I am sure they would not. It may look very well in theory, but it is not true in practice. A tenant takes a house, and he does not consider anything of the poundage leviable on that house."
The Reverend James Howie, an incumbent of one of the parishes in Dublin, is asked—
"Do you conceive ministers' money a very obnoxious impost?—To the great mass of the people I do."
Again—
"When you speak of the great mass of the people, do you refer to the Protestant and to the Catholic population, or exclusively to the Catholic population?—I think I may say in answer to that question, that to the generality of Roman Catholics it is objectionable; and I think I may add, that a great number of Protestants, even those that pay it, feel that a different mode of collection would be very desirable."
Again he is asked—
"Do you mean to say that the Catholics object to the tax itself, and the Protestants to the mode of collecting it?—I do, and I myself think that the present mode of collection is most objectionable; I have not language strong enough to express my objection to it."
Again, Sir Henry Meredith, one of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, is asked and answers the following question:—
"From your knowledge of the city of Dublin,
1406
and of the feelings of the people and the litigations and contentions incident to this tax, do you think it would be desirable to abolish it if some substitute could be found?—No doubt of it; I have been asked, as a friend I may say of the Establishment, and a friend to the Government of the country, to see what substitute could be contrived, and would be very desirable.
"Do you think that the finding of a substitute would be beneficial to the Church itself?—Indeed I do.
"By the substitution of rent-charge for tithes and the creation of an ecclesiastical revenue of which you are one of the Commissioners in lieu of vestry cess, the clergy of the Established Church are no longer brought into immediate collision with the mass of the population?—Certainly not, and it is a very happy circumstance for the country.
"But ministers' money I believe is the only portion of the income of the establishment which creates this unfortunate collision?—I believe so, I am quite satisfied of it.
"And in that view would it not be most desirable for the sake of the clergy themselves, to abolish the tax?—Yes, they are as anxious for a change as the persons who pay it, and perhaps more so: it would be more satisfactory to them."
Thus the clergy themselves and the friends of the Establishment are in favour of the abolition of this tax, though they may differ as to substitute. The evidence given before the Select Committee, as regards the feelings of the Roman Catholics on the subject, is equally strong. Mr. Creane, a Roman Catholic resident of Dublin, is asked by the hon. Member for Londonderry (Captain Jones):—
"The Committee did not understand you to state your own objections to the ministers' money tax, but to state what you believe to be the objections of others, will you state what is your objection?—My own objection is very strong against paying a Protestant clergyman. Being a Roman Catholic, I object that a Protestant clergyman should have the power by law to come in and seize my property without giving me any value for it, or my giving him any trouble in the service he is bound to perform. I have a very strong impression upon that; but my opinion is, that it would be unjust to the present incumbents, to withdraw from them their income, and to abolish the tax, without giving them something as a substitute.
"Have you any other objection?—I generally object to paying clergymen at all by any process of law; my own opinion is, that if I wish to give a clergyman anything, that is all I should be called on to do, and not to be compelled to do it. If a Catholic clergyman was empowered by law to come in and seize my property, I would equally object to it.
"Your objection is to any clergyman of whatever religion he may be, being authorised to demand money from you by law?—It is.
Again he is asked—
"Would its conversion, as you state, into something similar to a like rent-charge, remove the objection to this tax on the part of the Catholic

1407
population of Ireland?—Certainly not. I say it would be a less objectionable mode of collecting the tax, than that which is adopted at present.
"The hostility to the tax on the part of the Catholic population of Ireland would still exist?—The Roman Catholics feel generally, that they should not be called upon to pay anything towards the support of the Protestant Church."
[The hon. Member went on to quote the evidence of several other witnesses who were examined before the Committee, all tending to show the great unpopularity of the tax, the objectionable mode of collecting it, and the purpose to which it was applied.] The hon. Member continued. From this evidence it is incontestably established that in every shape and form the Roman Catholics object, and will continue to object, to this tax, on the broad principle that it is unjust to make them pay for the maintenance of the clergy of a Church with which they have no communion. But independently of the hostility existing from that feeling, the tax is highly objectionable from its mode of collection. The mode of valuation is unjust—the mode of distraint is oppressive. Once a house is valued for ministers' money it continues at that valuation while it stands, while no house can be valued over sixty pounds: hence the houses in the old quarters of a city formerly inhabited by the affluent, but now the abode of the humble class, continue at the former high valuation, while the real value of the property may have fallen 50 or 75 per cent, and at the same time the now houses worth 100 l. or 120 l a year, and inhabited by the rich, cannot be valued above 60 l. a year. Then as to distraint, it is evident that the collector can and does distrain without notice, and sell without notice often much below the value of the articles. In reference to the glaring injustice of the valuation, he would quote one or two facts from a return put in by Mr. Flynn, of Cork. Thus the great establishment of Beamish and Crawford of that city, is valued for the poor-rate at 2,225 l. a year, and it is charged but 2l. 15 s. 4d., ministers' money; while a house belonging to Mr. Simms, formerly valued at or over 60 l. for ministers' money, but now at 26 l. under the poor-law, pays the same. Messrs. Wise's, whose premises are valued at 870 l., pay but 2l. 10 s. ministers' money, while a house belonging to Mr. Foley, valued at 32 l. to the poor-rate, pays precisely the same: one hundred instances of similar inequalities could be produced. To remove this most monstrous injustice, it is proposed
1408
by those who wish to continue the tax, that there should be periodical valuations of all houses subject to the tax; and to get rid of the oppressive system of distraint, it is proposed to convert the tax into a rent-charge payable by the landlord. But the objection to the tax would still continue, for it appears from the evidence that a great proportion of the house property in these corporate towns belongs to Roman Catholics, and therefore Roman Catholics would still, even under that system, have to pay the tax. But to this it is replied that at the time the Act of Charles the Second was passed, Catholics could hold no property, and therefore any subsequently acquired by them they got subject to that tax. But this argument has no weight, inasmuch as all the new houses year after year built by the Catholics are at once when valued subject to ministers' money. In fact, there is no other course to adopt but total and entire abolition; and the sooner the better for the clergy, for if any amendment of the Municipal Act should declare ministers' money not a tax payable to enable a burgess to be enrolled, then the income of the clergy would fall considerably, for it is the obligation to pay that tax now, to get the municipal franchise, that has increased the last few years the incomes of the clergy in these corporate towns. The abolition of this tax being then imperatively called for, the next question is, where is the substitute to be found? He (Mr. Fagan) was the first to suggest the revenues of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, and it was a source of gratification to him that his views, as he had already stated, were adopted in the report of the Committee: that report states as follows:—
"Your Committee think it incumbent on them to state that an augmentation of the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners may be rendered available as a substitute for ministers' money, and recommend that with that view an amendment of the Church Temporalities Act may be made. Your Committee are aware that the adoption of this income will involve the interposition of a now trust, and the postponement or relinquishment of some of the ulterior objects contemplated by the Church Temporalities Act; but any objection founded on the displacement of the original objects of the Church Temporalities Act, will be more than countervailed by the great advantages which, in a moral, social, and religious view, will arise from the removal of an obstacle to those feelings of unity and good will which it will be essentially conducive to the general interests of the country to encourage between the working Protestant clergy and the great body of the community amongst whom in cities and towns in Ireland their duties are usefully and honourably performed."

1409
Again, Dr. Higgins, Dean of Limerick, expresses himself in a letter to the Rev. Mr. Elms to the same effect. It was impossible to have testimony stronger in favour of the substitute which he (Mr. Fagan) was the first to suggest; still it was impossible to deny that there was great difficulty in the matter, because there was in point of fact no surplus in the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners applicable to any purpose; and those objects to which such surplus was by Act of Parliament to be applied had in consequence never been carried out. But he would endeavour to show that this arose from three causes: first, because the annual sales of perpetuities are not considered as income of late years, and expended as income; secondly, because of the discouragement to the owners of bishops' leases to purchase the perpetuity; and, thirdly, because of the debt due to Government. He would touch on those three points separately. In the early operation of the Church Temporalities Act the funds derived from the sales of perpetuities were considered as income, and expended as such—and there was nothing in the Act of Parliament to prevent this application of the fund. On the contrary, the law considered it as income. In the year 1844, however, Lord Heytesbury directed that it should be capitalised, and the interest only applied to the annual expenditure, except for the payment of the Government debt. Now, when it is considered that the value of the perpetuities was estimated by the Commissioners at 1,200,000 l. sterling, of which only 523,170 l. has been yet received, leaving 676,830 l. to be yet received, supposing all leases to be so converted; and when it is further considered that 15,000 l. is about the annual receipts, there can be no feasible objection to allow a fund so very large, and coming in so slowly, to be treated as income if the public interest required it; at all events until the incomes of the Bishops of Armagh, Derry, Clogher, came in, and until by the falling in of the suppressed livings and the increase of the tax on avoided livings, the revenues of the Commissioners sufficiently augmented to enable them to meet the additional demand in lieu of ministers' money, namely, about 15,000 l. a year. He, therefore, maintained that the receipts from the sales of perpetuities should, as formerly, be included in the income of the Commissioners. Of late these sales have considerably diminished. This may be caused
1410
by the unfortunate condition of the country; but, independently of this, he maintained that it arose from the little encouragement given to tenants to purchase. Of late a new mode of estimating the value of the perpetuities has been adopted under directions of the law officers. Formerly it was what is called the diocesan value of the land was sold. Now, it is the bonâ fide value of the inheritance, estimated by the ordinary rules for ascertaining the annual value of land. The diocesan value of rent a solvent tenant could give under advantageous circumstances. The diocesan value is obtained by adding the annual fine payable, to the rent: this fine is one-fifth the rent, and the rent is exceedingly below the annual value. When, therefore, this diocesan value or rent was multiplied by twenty for the value of the fee-simple, it came to a much smaller sum than the real annual value multiplied by twenty. Therefore, under this last mode of estimating the purchase-money, the tenant has to pay considerably more than under the old system—and, consequently, there is much discouragement of late to purchase. Now, it is clearly the interest of the Commissioners to induce purchases, for every purchase increases their funds. For example, take the arch-diocese of Dublin—if there were no purchase of perpetuities in that diocese, the Commissioners would not receive a farthing. If, on the contrary, the tenants were, by a large bonus, induced to purchase, the Commissioners would get the amount. If there were no purchases, no person would be the gainer—if there were purchases, the revenues of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners would be benefited. It is, therefore, the public interest to encourage purchasers—he would, therefore, if he were allowed to bring in a Bill, give a bonus of seven per cent deduction from the purchase-money, instead of four per cent, the present bonus, in order to encourage the holders of bishops' leases to convert them into perpetuities. This would vastly increase the funds of the Commissioners. Again, the provisions of the Act 4th and 5th William IV., respecting under-tenants, enabling them to purchase without the sanction of the first or chief tenant, could never be carried out, from the difficulty of ascertaining the under tenant's interest without concurrence of the first tenant. This tended to diminish the amount of sales; to remedy this, the Commissioners had prepared a clause amending the law

1411
in that regard, and that clause he had adopted in his Bill. There was another reason why the purchase of perpetuities should be encouraged. It appears now to be the law that the tenant holding under the Ecclesiastical Commissioners need not come in every year and renew paying his annual fine—he may now, it seems, come in on the last year of his lease, and paying the same fine as he would on the first year, he gets a renewal of his lease—whereas if he went on the last year of his lease to the bishop, he would have to pay an enormous sum for the renewal. This will considerably reduce the income of the Ecclesiastical Commmissioners; and, therefore, it is the more necessary to encourage purchases of the perpetuity. He proposed, however, in his Bill to remedy that evil. He would now come to the debt due to Government. There was originally 100,000 l. borrowed; of this, 97,000 l, for principal and interest, was repaid, leaving 40,000 l. still due. Now, of this 100,000 l, over 48,000 l went in lieu of the arrears due of vestry cess when the Church Temporalities Act passed, and which the Commissioners had to meet. It is, therefore, not requiring too much to ask the Government to abandon this debt, in order to facilitate the settlement of ministers' money. If, then, he repeated, the annual sales of perpetuities were reckoned income—if greater encouragement were given to tenants to become purchasers—and if the Government debt were forgiven—he maintained there would be found ample funds to meet the amount of ministers' money, without waiting-for the future increase contingent on the death of three bishops, and the avoidance of livings liable to the payment of the tax. Supposing, then, the perpetuity was found to yield 15,000 l a year income, and the debt to be forgiven, he would show how the receipts and expenditure of the Commissioners stood. He took the accounts from Mr. Quin's and Mr. Williams' returns. First, he would take the receipts:—

From suppressed bishoprics

£50,267

—Suspended bonefices

15,574

—Tax on benefices

8,784

—Bishop of Derry

4,162

—Interest on mortgages

2,618

—Mines

402

£81,807

To which add the annual sales of perpetuities, which may be set down at

15,000

Receipts

£96,807

1412

Expenditure in Church requisites

£34,792

Mr. Quin estimates annual repairs, church fences, and painting, at 28,366 l. The average for five years to 1847 was but 16,000 l. Allow the average of the two sums for the annual expenditure for these purposes, and it will give

22,183

Rebuilding of churches

6,634

Bishop of Kildare

100

Interest on building his palace

688

Stipends paid to Dublin curates

1,902

Ditto to Vicar Choral

3,689

Augmentation of small livings

962

Diocesan schoolmasters

132

Salaries

6,516

Incidentals

2,975

Other expenses

268

Amount of expenditure

£80,841

—which, taken from 96,807 l., left 15,966 l. surplus, after meeting the ordinary expenditure of the Commissioners. There was, therefore, nothing to deter the House from making the attempt to get rid of an odious tax—odious both to the receiver and the payer. It was, it was true, but of trifling amount; but it carried with it much of principle, and if adopted by the House, it would show a disposition to legislate in a just spirit for Ireland. All he asked for was to enable him to bring in his Bill, and the House would then he able to judge how far it met the case. It might be considered in the disasters of the present times that a miserable 15,000 l. a year was not worth thinking about. But that was not so; there was so much of religious feeling mixed up with it, it would be hailed as a boon by the whole of Ireland. [Here an hon. Member moved that the House be counted; forty Members, however, being present, Mr. Fagan proceeded.] He would entreat the House not lightly to reject the Motion of which he had given notice; and apologising for so long a trespass on its attention, would now conclude.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That this House will To-morrow resolve itself into a Committee, to take into consideration the Law relating to the Rate or Tax called Ministers' Money in Ireland, with the view to the repeal of so much thereof as relates to the said Rate or Tax; and further, to take into consideration the Act 3 and 4 Will. IV., c. 114, called the Church Temporalities Act, for the purpose of amending the same, so as to provide thereby a substitute out of the revenues of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, as a provision for Protestant Ministers in certain corporate towns in Ireland, in lieu of the annual sums now received by them under and by virtue of the Act 17 and 18 Car. II., c. 7."
MR. J. O'CONNELLseconded the Motion.
MR. GROGAN, in opposing the Motion,

1413
said, the question before them essentially was this—that a strong encouragement was held out to assail the provision made for the support of Protestant ministers in the towns subjected to the operation of the Act, the total amount of whose income annually was about 15,000 l. The real truth of the matter was, every one was unwilling to pay anything which they could avoid. Because the Government had some time ago, with a view to establishing peace in the country, abolished a portion of the property of the Established Church, the House was now called upon to leave the entire of the seven or eight corporate towns referred to without any provision for their clergymen. The hon. Gentleman for the city of Cork had said that he did not wish to leave the ministers in those towns without support; but he (Mr. Grogan) defied the hon. Member to find surplus funds to do what he said. The report which had been made by the Committee was based on a simple sophistry. Everybody admitted that there were grievances and inequalities in the tax in question, which it would be desirable to do away with. Yet some of the witnesses who had been examined before the Committee had said that those grievances ought not to be removed, because the tax might be then made perpetual, whereas they did not wish to pay at all. Another witness had stated that he preferred ministers' money to any other impost of that kind. Now, he (Mr. Grogan) maintained, that so far from the Established Church in Ireland being damaged by the evidence given before, or the report made by, that Committee, the contrary was the result; and he defied any one reading the blue book to come to the same conclusion as the hon. Member opposite. It was by no means the fact that any fund existed which could be applied to the purpose suggested by the hon. Gentleman. The whole view taken by the Committee in their report was to the effect that the funds of the Ecclesiastical Commission were now adequate to the expenditure, and that there might be a large prospective increase; and, consequently, the House might, if it thought proper, apply the same for the sustentation of Protestant ministers in those corporate towns. Now, he confessed, he could not find out from what testimony the Committee could come to the conclusion that the existing income of the Ecclesiastical Commission was equal to its expenditure. Why, some of those examined had told the Committee that the
1414
funds at the disposal of the Commission were 6,000 l per annum below the necessary demands of the trusts under their control. [The hon. Member here referred at some length to the evidence given by some of the witnesses before the Committee, to show that so inadequate were the funds under the control of the Ecclesiastical Commission, that many churches were locked up in consequence of their ruinous state, and that others were only repaired by degrees because of the smallness and insufficiency of the funds.] [An Hon. MEMBER: Hear, hear!] Those might laugh who thought it well to pull churches down; but they who wished to keep them up thought it was a more serious and important matter. The whole weight of the evidence went to show that the funds in the hands of the Commissioners were totally unable to meet the demands upon them; and yet the Committee had come to a resolution that those funds were adequate to the expenditure. On the contrary, it had been shown that the means were not one-half sufficient for the objects for which they were required; and yet the hon. Gentleman opposite came forward to demand that these funds should be appropriated to other purposes. The augmentation of small livings was one of the requirements which the Commissioners had to discharge, yet this they had been unable to do to any extent of consequence. One witness had made a statement before the Committee to the effect that the probable amount of the sum per annum required for the objects of the Commission for the next five years would be 36,743?. Now, there had been a deficiency of 6,000 l. a year mentioned; and how, then, could the hon. Member opposite find the surplus he proposed to supply the place of ministers' money? He (Mr. Grogan) did not mean to deny, as he had before said, that there were inequalities and grievances attending the working of the law, which he should be desirous of rectifying. He fully admitted that an improved and corrected valuation would be very advisable and necessary. It had been acknowledged on all hands that the rights of the clergy with respect to that tax had seldom been improperly enforced; and that the great majority of Protestant ministers had abstained from putting the law arbitrarily into execution. Under all the circumstances of the case, he thought he could say that the hon. Gentleman should not, or ought not, attempt to do away with that

1415
tax, until he could provide funds to substitute for it adequately. The real object of the hon. Member for the city of Cork was not, as he believed, to remove evils and grievances Which every one admitted, but was of a totally different character; and, under these circumstances, he felt bound to offer his decided opposition to the Motion.
MR. B. OSBORNEthought that this was a question which deserved consideration wholly irrespective of blue books or documents. It was a question which it became not only Irish but English Members to consider, and therefore he trusted it would be taken up in the broad spirit of religious liberty, not argued in the pettifogging spirit of an attorney's clerk. When the hon. and learned Member for the city of Dublin had read the blue book—and he believed the hon. and learned Member had read it nearly through—he should not have omitted one fact which it contained, and that was, that while eight Roman Catholic towns in the south of Ireland paid ministers' money, the Protestant north was wholly exempt from its operation. Why? Because when the Act was revised in the reign of Queen Anne, it was known that the Protestant Dissenters would not submit to the impost; but the Catholics of the south having been completely ground down, and their very natures demoralised, this chain was hung round their necks as an additional means of attaching them to the Established Church. He was surprised that the Irish Catholics condescended to come to that House to ask for a removal of the tax. Had he been in their place he would have agitated elsewhere, and in such a voice as would compel the Ministry and the people of England to consent to its removal. It was no answer to say, that the amount in dispute was only 100,000 l. What was the amount against which John Hampden had struggled? There was one portion of the report, from which, as an English Member, he felt bound to dissent, and that was the paragraph in which their old friend the Consolidated Fund was called on to provide a substitute. It seemed as if that was the pool of Bethesda, in which all these Irish cripples were dipped. For his part, he would abolish the impost at once, and without any substitute. Ireland was a Roman Catholic country, especially the south, and on what pretence could they in the nineteenth century call for provision for Protestant pastors from a Catholic people? At that moment there was in one
1416
of the southern towns a clergyman, who was a convert from the Roman Catholic Church, preaching the most violent sectarian sermons. He (Mr. Osborne) had himself heard him call the people vagabonds from the pulpit, and yet this gentleman's parish was a recipient of ministers' money. The hon. and learned Member for the city of Dublin accused those who supported this Motion of a design to annihilate the Protestant Church in Ireland. Well, certainly, if the Protestant Church were merely a thing of pounds, shillings, and pence, the sooner it went the better. But he had a stronger faith in the durability of the Protestant Church than had the hon. and learned Member for the city of Dublin. He believed that if the congregational system which he advocated were adopted, the Established Church would assume an expansive character, to which it could never aspire under the present system. The reason why he supported this Motion was, because he looked upon it as the first step towards a reform of that system which he held to be a disgrace to the civilised world. It was a step in the direction to which Her Majesty's present Ministers had shown so strong an inclination in 1835; but which, from that day down to the present, they had scrupulously avoided. The time of the House had latterly been taken up in passing Habeas Corpus Suspension and Treason Felony Acts; but why had there been no Bill brought in to remove this crying grievance? One of the most illustrious Roman Catholics of the present day, the right hon. Member for Dungarvan, had drawn up the report of the Ministers' Money Committee; that report had been acquiesced in by a majority of the Committee; and if it was not to be a mere mockery, it should be immediately followed by a Bill. All he should further say was, that if neither Government, nor any Catholic Member brought forward the question of the grievances arising out of the Church Establishment in Ireland, he pledged himself to do so at an early day, and he could not give a greater proof of his sincerity than by giving his vote in favour of the present Motion.
SIR G. GREYregretted very much that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Middlesex had addressed the House in a spirit very different from that which pervaded the speech of the hon. Member for the city of Cork, and in a very different spirit from that in which the Committee, whose

1417
report he had so much eulogised, had dealt with the subject. The hon. Gentleman had stated as the ground for supporting the Motion of the hon. Member for Cork, that he wished to see the Protestant Church abolished. [Mr. OSBORNE: Not in the first instance.] Well, ultimately abolished, saving the rights of the existing incumbents; and he said that he considered the abolition of ministers' money to be the avant courier, as he called it, of the ultimate result to which he looked forward. He had said that he would, consequently, vote for the Motion, without seeking to find any other source from which the clergymen whose salaries continued to be payable from this fund, would derive subsistence. To show that that was not the spirit in which the report of the Committee was drawn up by his right hon. Friend the Member for Dungarvan, he would read the concluding paragraph:—
"Your Committee think it right to add, that in the event of any substitute being provided for ministers' money, they do not coincide in one of the views taken by the Dean of Limerick regarding the reduction of the incomes of the clergy in the cities and towns corporate of Ireland; for they do not consider their incomes in general to be more than commensurate with their functions—where no pretence for the imputation of sine-curism can be found; and your Committee think that they cannot conclude this report more appropriately than by a citation from the evidence of the Rev. Mr. O'Sullivan—who has officiated as Roman Catholic curate for upwards of sixteen years in Cork—and who in answer to the question whether it was the wish of the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Cork that the clergy of the Established Church in that city should be fully paid for the duties which they performed—answered 'No doubt; 'and added that from his experience for the last several years as secretary to the Relief Committee of Cork, he could state that there had been such a cordial feeling between the clergy of both churches—they had acted so well and so zealously together—that if this cause of irritation were removed, a very beneficial change would take place."
This was also the opinion of the Rev. Mr. O'Sullivan, a Roman Catholic clergyman of the city of Cork, who gave the following evidence on this point:—
"The inhabitants of Cork, I presume, would think that the clergy of the Established Church, who have duties to perform, should not be deprived of their livelihood?—On the contrary, I think that the general impression among the respectable classes of Roman Catholics in Cork, and, indeed, generally, is, that any arrangement which would take from the present incumbents their full amount of subsistence, becoming their rank as clergymen and gentlemen, would be unjust.
"And you say that it is the wish of the Roman Catholic inhabitants that the clergy of the Established Church in Cork should be paid fully for the duties they perform?—No doubt; and as I know
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that my examination must be a short one, I hope I do not intrude on the Committee, in saying that, from experience for the last several years, as secretary to the Relief Committee of Cork, there has been such a cordial feeling between the clergy of both churches, they have acted so well and so zealously together, that I do believe, that if this cause of irritation were removed in cities, a very beneficial change would be produced upon the face and surface of society."
What the Committee recommended then, was, not that the clergy should cease to receive any remuneration for their duties, but that a substitute should be provided for a mode of payment which was felt to be a grievance not less by the clergyman who received it, than the people who paid it. He agreed with much that had been said with respect to the objectionable nature of the present mode of payment. The same system existed also in some parts of Scotland, where an inquiry had been lately instituted into the subject, and where the mode of payment had been found open to similar objections to the one then under consideration—not arising from difference of religious creed so much as from the mode in which the Act of Parliament operated. With reference to ministers' money he was not prepared to dispute the truth of what was stated by the Committee, that—
"This source of livelihood is an object of dislike to the clergy, by whom it is most painfully collected from the reluctant and the poor; several clergymen have been examined in the course of this inquiry, all of whom concur in the expression of a strong desire on their own part, and on the part of the clergy, that some substitute for ministers' money may be provided."
But the difficulty which he (Sir Gr. Grey) felt in consenting to the present Motion—setting aside altogether the ground alleged by the hon. Member for Middlesex for his vote, which he believed would induce hon. Members to vote against the Motion rather than otherwise—his difficulty was that he saw no certain substitute that could be provided for the existing system. It was hypothetically stated in the report, that there were certain funds in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, which would at some future time be available as a substitute; but the report was cautiously worded. They stated their belief "that the existing income of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners is adequate to their actual expenditure." They did not deny that their present expenditure was a proper expenditure; but they anticipated for the future such an increase of the funds in the hands of the Commissioners as to enable

1419
them to place an additional charge upon them. But this was not the case at present; and, therefore, he could see no immediate Substitute that could be provided for the existing tax. He observed that the Consolidated Fund was looked to as a substitute—not, certainly, by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dungarvan—who drew up the report, but by some of the witnesses who were examined. The Dean of Limerick, in a letter which was given in the report, suggested that the burden should be placed upon the Church Temporalities Act; but the Rev. Mr. Elmes, the rector of St. John's parish, Limerick, dissented from that opinion, and thought that it ought to be placed upon the Consolidated Fund. If it should afterwards appear that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had ample funds in their hands for the accomplishment of the objects for which they were appointed, and that a surplus remained, he could not help thinking that that surplus would be appropriately applied to the removal of this grievance; but as, in the meantime, no definite substitute could be provided, he would, without placing a direct negative upon the Motion of the hon. Member for Cork, move the previous question as an Amendment.
MR. GRATTANhad been born a Protestant, bred a Protestant, and very likely would die a Protestant. But he protested against the arguments of the hon. and learned Member for Dublin as wretched abortions. A worse defence of a bad system he had never heard, either from a lawyer or a Member of Parliament. The real question was, whether an injustice was to continue to be perpetrated on a body of un-offending men? Here was an impost not levied on the north, and demanded from the south of Ireland. He contended, that there was no service whatever done for this money. It had been stated in evidence, that in 1833 there were in Ireland fifty churches in which for the previous three years no service had been performed. What a mockery was it to attempt to uphold such a system! The question was, whether 6,000,000 of men were to be called upon to pay for a mock Establishment? In one parish with which be was acquainted, in his own county, there was a Protestant church with grass growing in the doorway, its windows broken, and mould strewed over its floor—it was, in fact, in a state of complete dilapidation. And why? Because there were no Protestants to attend it. In another parish there was but one Protes-
1420
tant; he had two wives, and they killed him. Yet the Protestant clergyman of this parish, all the inhabitants of which were Catholic, except the two wives—and he did not know whether they were Protestant or Catholic—drew an income of 400 l. a year; towards which he, as the owner of property in the parish, had to contribute. And for what? To save the soul of this single Protestant, which was not worth saving after all. He would maintain and uphold the Establishment, not by such means as these, but by moral principle, Christian feeling, and universal charity. What must be the feelings of our Catholic fellow-subjects when they were told by a Protestant bishop that the national schools, wherein Catholic children were taught in their own creed, were the suggestion of the devil. He could assure them such statements were not passed over unobserved by the Catholics, nor were they forgotten. And what was the condition of the Catholics at this moment in many of those parishes from which Protestant rectors were drawing large stipends to spend in Bath or elsewhere? Why, when they went to pray, they were reduced to the necessity of praying in stables instead of in chapels. Catholic ladies were reduced to the necessity of kneeling in the mud of Protestant stables—in the stalls of Protestant horses. How any one could be found to defend so detestable a system was to him astonishing. The right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary said, he was surprised at the words of the hon. Member for Middlesex. He ought rather to rejoice that they were only words. What would the right hon. Baronet say, when those words ripened into deeds; and when the Treasury bench would no longer be able to provide the means of defence against a whole people, roused to desperation by their injustice and neglect? It had been said, that the Catholics were cowards—he believed that there was much of water in their blood, for if they had the blood which ran through Protestant veins, they never would have submitted so long to the oppression and tyranny they had endured. Did they think it would satisfy the Catholic people, who were forced to pay this odious impost, to tell them that there was no fund in the hands of the Commissioners out of which those Protestant clergymen could be paid? He would advise them to make peace with the Catholics of Ireland by doing them justice. The time might come when they might not have the power to do so. Let

1421
them remember that the Protestant Church lived by the sufferance of the Catholics; and in consideration of what the Establishment had taken from the Catholic Church, he would suggest that a million at least should be given to the Catholic clergy, whose devotion to the spiritual welfare of their flocks, visiting and consoling the sick in the midst of typhus and other contagious diseases, formed a marked contrast to the conduct of some of the Protestant clergy, who had absolutely refused to visit the sick poor because typhus prevailed. He was not one of those who wished to strip the Protestant Church of its possessions, but to strip it of its vices and its errors, and to allow it to stand on its own pure foundation and in its beautiful simplicity; nor did he think it would be in the least endangered by taking from its own resources the paltry sum necessary for the payment of these its own clergymen; but the enforcement of which from the Catholics was an injustice and an insult to them.
SIR J. YOUNGobserved, that the hon. Gentleman who last spoke had expressed a desire to place the truth before the House; but in doing so he seemed to have forgotten what Miss Edgeworth had said: that he who exaggerated truth or painted it in false colours, was a traitor to the cause of truth. The right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary had quoted the recommendation of the Committee; but the House should be aware that that report was carried by a majority of five against a minority of four. Therefore, whatever weight was due to that report—and he admitted that it was considerable—the opinion of the minority should not wholly be thrown aside. The great difficulty was to find a substitute for the tax they proposed to abolish. That it was a grievance to the Protestant clergyman to receive his stipend in this way, especially when the claim was resisted and had to be enforced, as well as it was to the Catholic to pay it, was admitted; but no other source out of which such stipend could be provided had been found. The second report of the Committee stated that ministers' money was not a charge on the person, but on the property, and formed part of the property of the Established Church; and it did not appear to them that any reason had been shown for relieving the owners who had come into possession of their property subject to this impost from the charge. If it were to be given up, it would, like the 25 per cent which had
1422
been surrendered under the Tithe Commutation Act, go into the landlord's pocket. [Mr. GRATTAN: They have not had a penny of it.] The second report further suggested that a power of redemption should be given, and a fund thus created; but it condemned the proposition for taking the money from the funds in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, on the ground that those funds were placed in their hands for certain specific purposes and trusts; and until those trusts were completed, any diversion of any part of the money to other objects would be a breach of faith. Another proposition that was made before the Committee was, that a new valuation of the property in the towns should be made, and that the rate should be levied on such revaluation for the ministers' money, for the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy, and for other purposes. That probably was as fair a suggestion as had been put forward. The right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary said, that the Consolidated Fund was alluded to as the means of providing the fund; but in the second report the allusion to the Consolidated Fund was made as being the only means by which the landlords who were liable could hope to shift their burden to other shoulders. He (Sir J. Young) had voted against that proposition; and with regard to the present Motion, looking upon it, as the right hon. Baronet had said, as an avant courier to an attack on the Protestant Church Establishment of Ireland generally, he thought the Government were right in the course they took. Within a few years the Protestant clergy of Ireland had surrendered one-third of their property, and no wise Government would reopen the question.
MR. CALLAGHANwas one of the Members of the Committee which sat upon this subject, and must remind the House that every one of the clergymen of the Established Church who were examined before it spoke against the tax. This odious impost was chiefly levied in those districts where the Catholic vastly preponderated over the Protestant population, which made its collection the more grievous and hateful to the former. The Catholics did not pay it willingly, and they never would pay it willingly. The hon. Member for Meath had given some ludicrous instances of the state in which Irish parishes were. At the risk of causing the House to laugh, he would mention another. He was once asked by two of his friends, clergymen,

1423
who were going to a visitation, to lend them a backgammon box in order to beguile the journey. He lent the box, and asked them in return to ascertain whether or no it was the fact, whether, as was rumoured, there were only six Protestant parishioners in a certain parish, a parish in which the opposition to this tax originated. The Government made the inquiry, and it turned out that there were only six Protestants, and that the two churchwardens were with child. It was explained in this way—that as there were only six Protestants, the clerk's wife and the sexton's wife were appointed churchwardens, and they were in the family way. He would not trespass further on the attention of the House than again to protest against this tax, and also against the system of tithes, under which the great body of the Irish people would never rest contented. They were badges of servitude—standing monuments of injustice—and the sooner they were abolished the better.
MR. KERSHAWalso protested against the tax as unjust and oppressive, and at the same time expressed his regret that the subject had been treated with so much levity by the House. He agreed with those who thought the Protestant Established Church in Ireland a nuisance in that country. ["Oh! oh!"] Hon. Gentlemen might say "Oh !" but he averred that that Protestant Church in Ireland had not fulfilled its mission. He thought the application of the voluntary principle would be much better for the Irish Protestant Church, and for religion generally. As long as he had a scat in that House, he would protest against the crying injustice of the majority of the people of Ireland being obliged to pay for the Church of the minority. The voluntary principle had been tried in England, and tried with success, even amongst members of the Church of England, for he was happy to say that in many instances churches in connexion with the Established Church were conducted upon the voluntary principle, and that those churches were the most prosperous in the country. If that were the case, the sooner the contention for mere pelf was abandoned the better. For his own part he desired nothing more than that religion should be excluded from the debates in that House, and thought the adoption of the voluntary principle generally would tend to the promotion of religion, and the restoration of tranquillity.
MR. NEWDEGATEagreed with the hon. Member for Stockport in thinking
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that such discussions did not tend to raise the House of Commons in the estimation of the country. He rejoiced, however, to say that the observations to which he referred came from the other side exclusively of the House. He denied most emphatically that the Irish Church had been wanting in its duty. During the distress in Ireland, he had heard Roman Catholics avow, that of all those who exerted themselves in the cause of humanity, and made sacrifices for the alleviation of their sinking fellow-countrymen, the clergy of the Established Church stood foremost. It appeared strange, to say the least of it, that a Motion like that, for the purpose of alienating the property of the Established Church, was made by an Irish Roman Catholic, considering the oath which he had taken. What was that oath? It was this:—
"I do swear that I will defend to the utmost of my power the settlement of property within this realm as established by law; and I do hereby disclaim, disavow, and solemnly abjure any intention to subvert the present Church Establishment as settled by law within this realm; and I do solemnly swear that I never will exercise any privilege to which I am or may become entitled, to disturb or weaken the Protestant religion or Protestant Government in the United Kingdom; and I do solemnly, in the presence of God, profess, testify, and declare, that I do make this declaration, and every part thereof, in the plain ordinary sense of the words of the oath, without any evasion, equivocation, or mental reservation whatsoever. So help me God."
Now, if there was any meaning in the plain sense of words, by their acceptation of these terms in the oath Roman Catholic Members had taken at the table of the House, they had precluded themselves from attempting to weaken or disturb the Established Church of Ireland by alienation of its funds or otherwise: but he was sorry to say, the House had the testimony of three hon. Members—the hen. Members for Middlesex, Meath, and Cavan—that this Motion was a direct attack on the Church established in Ireland. He could not understand how hon. Members who had taken the oath which he had just read, could reconcile it to their consciences to support this Motion. The only explanation of this was to be found in the fact, that by the Roman canon law oaths were not held obligatory which were contrary to the decisions of, or adverse to, the interests of the Church of Rome; and that Roman Catholic Members of that House, who took part in such proceedings as the present, considered themselves absolved, by their religion, from the obligation of the oaths

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they had taken on entering this House. He had stated this before in the House; and certain Roman Catholic Members had questioned the authority on which he did so; he would, therefore, now quote some of these authorities. In the edition of the Canon Law, published with the approval of the Roman Catholic Consistory of Saxony in 1839, he found it asserted by Popes of Rome—
"That the Kingly power is subject to the Pontificial—that the Pope has a right to depose Sovereigns, to dispose of their kingdoms and absolve subjects from their allegiance—that all oaths to the prejudice of the Church of Rome are null and void—and that Romish ecclesiastics may resist their Sovereigns for the good of their Church, and even for their own private advantage."
On oaths of allegiance it was said—
"'The apostolic authority altogether cancels illicit oaths.…as the Lord says by the prophet (Isaiah lviii. 6).'The Roman Pontiff absolves from the oath of allegiance, when he deposes any from their authority.'—Gregory IX., Decret. 11, pars. C. xv. 2 vi. p. 647."
With respect to the deposition of sovereigns and the oaths of subjects and soldiers, it was said (p. 648)—
"The Pontificial authority absolves from the oath of allegiance."
The following ancient precedent is then cited:—
"The Roman Pontiff, Zachariah, deposed the King of the Franks, not so much for his evil deeds, as because he was not serviceable to his own power, and raised to the throne, in his place, Pepin, the father of Charlemagne, and absolved all the Franks from the oath of allegiance which they had taken." "The same is done frequently (auctoritate frequenti) by the Holy Church, when it releases soldiers from the obligation of their oaths."
On the subject of oaths of allegiance to excommunicate persons, he found the following passage (p. 648):—
"No one owes allegiance to any excommunicate persons before they are reconciled to the Holy See."
The Pope proceeds to forbid such allegiance to be paid:—
"'No oaths are to be kept if they are against the interest of the Church of Rome." Oaths which are against the interest of the Church are not to be called oaths, but perjuries.' Decret. Greg. IX., lib. 11. tit. xxiv. cap. 27 (vol. ii. p. 358)."
The following sentences would show that the oaths of allegiance taken by ecclesiastics to temporal sovereigns were considered illicit and void:—
"Ecclesiastics not having temporalities from laics are not bound to take oaths of allegiance to them. Certain laics contrive to usurp too much on the Divine right, when they compel ecclesias-
1426
tics receiving no temporalities for them to take oaths of allegiance; but since, according to the apostle (Rom. xiv.4) every one stands or falls to his own master, we prohibit such ecclesiastics from any such violence." We declare that you are not bound by your oaths of allegiance to your princes, but that you may resist freely even your prince himself in defence of the rights and honour of the Church, and even of your own private advantage."
In the xvi. canon of the Third Council of Lateran, it is affirmed that those oaths are not to be called oaths, but perjuries rather, which are contrary to the advantage of the Church. Bishop Doyle says (Appendix to Irish Education Report, p. 794)—
"The Third Lateran Council is one of the General Councils of the Roman Catholic Church."
In the 27th chapter of the Council it is affirmed that all who are in any way bound to heretics, should consider themselves absolved from all fidelity and obedience due to them as long as they persist in their iniquity. Archbishop Murray admitted that the Council of Constance was general, and Roman Catholics profess that they receive without doubt what the canons of the general councils declare; and one of the decrees of the Council of Constance is, "that faith is not to be kept with heretics to the prejudice of the Church." He thought this sufficient to show that there were some Roman Catholics, at least, who would not think themselves bound by any oaths contrary to the interests of their church. He deeply regretted that the hon. Member who had made this Motion, and who was a Roman Catholic, had not left it to some equally determined opponent of the Irish Church, such as the hon. Member for Middlesex. He could not have found any one more zealous enemy of the Established Church than that hon. Member, nor a more determined opponent, as far as his weak voice could go, than the individual who then addressed them.
The EARL of ARUNDELand SURREY said, that the oaths about which the hon. Gentleman had been speaking, from the keeping of which Roman Catholics were absolved, were only those which it would be unlawful to keep—such, for instance, as if a man were to swear to kill another man, he would be absolved from the oath, and forbidden absolutely to keep it. Roman Catholics were forbidden to take oaths to do anything which was unlawful; but if they happened to take them, they were forbidden to keep them. However, the question was one which had

1427
nothing to do with the subject under discussion. Hon. Members interpreted the oaths they took according to their own consciences; and he had been informed by a Protestant Member of the House (whoso name he was not at liberty then to divulge, the matter having been spoken of merely in private conversation) that he took precisely the same view of the oath as the right hon. Member for Dungarvan. That fact was sufficient to illustrate the difference of opinion that existed. With regard to the charge of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire, as to the not keeping faith with heretics, it was one which had been so often answered and denied, that it required no further reply. There was no foundation whatsoever for it. Roman Catholics were bound to keep faith with heretics. He did not intend to go into the question under discussion further than to say, that the hon. Gentleman the Member for the city of Cork, who had introduced it, said that he did not wish to deprive the Protestant clergy of their incomes; and, as far as he (the Earl of Arundel) had understood, all the hon. Gentlemen who had spoken in that debate against the Irish Church were themselves Protestants.
MR. HUMEdisapproved altogether of the expressions about this being an attack upon the Church. If, to endeavour to remove an abuse and to destroy an injustice, were to make an attack upon the Church, then indeed the Motion under consideration was an attack, and he had often made such attacks. But it was surprising how the opinions of hon. Gentlemen changed upon the question. It was a gross and grievous injustice that a tax for the support of the Protestant clergy should be levied upon the Roman Catholics in those eight corporate towns in the south of Ireland. It was most unwarrantable. But he begged the House to observe the changes in opinion that had taken place regarding it. On the 3rd of July, 1844, a precisely similar Motion was brought forward in the House, and it was supported by the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Bellew) a Gentleman who was certainly not one likely to pull down the Church. Upon the same occasion, Lord Stanley, who was then a Member of the Government, stated that the question was one which had seriously occupied the attention of the Government; and although they had not as yet determined upon the nature of the measure they would adopt, yet he hoped shortly to be enabled to submit one that would be satis-
1428
factory. Yet, to hear hon. Gentlemen rising and attacking his hon. Friends near him for advocating the principle of a measure which Lord Stanley declared had occupied his favourable attention and that of the Government of which he was a Member, was to him most surprising, if anything could surprise him. Why should hon. Gentlemen refuse to go into Committee upon the question? Why should the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary have moved the previous question, when those about him had formerly supported Motions—yes, and intended it seriously—precisely similar to that moved by his hon. Friend the Member for the city of Cork? Why should the Government refuse to abolish this tax of 15,000 l., when they had previously abolished charges to the amount of 76,000 l.? The Established Church in Ireland was a perpetual cause of excitement, of difference, and of ill feeling. And, indeed, he had to complain of a similar injustice in Scotland to that under discussion; for in Edinburgh and Montrose ministers' money was collected, and great differences were excited thereby. But so long as they had the Church of the minority supported by the majority, it was impossible to expect peace or quiet in Ireland. He thought his hon. Friend the Member for the city of Cork had done right in bringing; forward the Motion. He had done so in a speech which had given not the slightest cause of offence to any one, and he (Mr. Hume) should give him his most cordial support.
MR. NAPIER: Sir, the hon. Member for Montrose has told the House that there would be no peace for Ireland until the Protestant Church was levelled; and yet that hon. Member was loud in his demand for religious liberty. But on what principle of religious liberty did the hon. Member deny to them—the Protestants of Ireland—that which he claimed for himself? He (Mr. Napier) was ready to admit that if the religious rights of any man were unfairly interfered with, the party had a right to complain; and it was in exact conformity with that principle that he demanded for the Church to which he himself belonged the privilege of retaining the property which was justly her own. In arguing the question of property, he found that a general fallacy prevailed. The plea generally was, that the property of the individual was taxed; that, in fact, a personal charge was made, to support the Established Church. The hon. Member for

1429
Middlesex had fallen into an historical mistake in stating that a tax which had been submitted to by the south of Ireland had been repudiated by the north. In the case before the House, the charge had been imposed in the reign of Charles II., after the settlement of the Ulster plantation; and it was done with a view to encourage commercial settlers from England. In the south, various privileges were extended to those who settled in towns, and provision was made for the creation of corporations and the erection and maintenance of churches. The Church's title to the income now under consideration arose out of the arrangements thus made, and was as good as the title by which any landlord held his land. The present possessors of the property, liable to the charge, took possession with the charge upon it, and they had no right to call it a burden, and to demand to be relieved from it. Mr. O'Flynn, one of the witnesses examined before the Select Committee, had plainly stated that it was against the conscience of a Roman Catholic to pay such a charge in favour of a Protestant clergyman, even supposing he had acquired his property subject to that charge. Such a position was contrary, not only to justice, but to common sense, and to the very existence of property at all. That was a position which might be applied by any individual the charge being one upon property—and not upon the person. He asked any one of common sense, then, that being the case, what would be the effect of abolishing it, and whom would it relieve? The owners of a large portion of the property in towns were Protestants, and if they removed this charge, it was the owners that would be benefited; and he asked what conscientious principle, what point of religious liberty, would be advanced by such a course? He admitted that in the details there might be defects; but if the clergy had to go to the tenants and they paid the charge, they had a right to deduct it from their landlords. He admitted that it might be better to make the charge on the landowners in the first instance, and if it could be so arranged, and the clergy only received three-fourths of their present amount, it would be beneficial, as it would go far to prevent the creation of religious animosity by the collection. He heard a number of city Members speak against this charge, but only one county Member; and he held in his hands the words of one of Ireland's bright-
1430
est ornaments and gifted sons on this subject. The late Mr. Grattan had, almost with his dying words, expressed his determination to support the rights of the Established Church, while advocating the extension of religious liberty. That Gentleman had drawn up a series of resolutions, to the effect that it was desirable that a Committee should be appointed, with a view of relieving Her Majesty's subjects from religious disabilities in a manner consistent with a due regard to the maintaining inviolate the rights of the Established Church, and the principles of the 5th Article of the Act of Union. He might also quote the opinion of an English Roman Catholic, that, the Legislature having settled the matter, and appointed certain charges to be made on property, no individual had a right to complain or interfere with the arrangement. Unless they maintained the principle of property, as established by the Legislature, there would be no security for any institution of the country. He re-collected the time when nine-tenths of the tithe were paid by Protestants; and when it was consented that that impost should be commuted for a rent charge, if a Roman Catholic took the property it was subject to that charge. He always thought it right that the question should be discussed on principle, and he was glad to hear the noble Lord at the head of the Government express his determination to maintain the Church on principle, when he stated that it must be so maintained, not merely as a Church, but as a great national establishment. He (Mr. Napier) had never defended the Church except as a Christian establishment, founded on the word of God; and he would be obliged to any hon. Member who, in a spirit of real reform, could point out where it could be improved so as to enable it better to perform its mission. From what he knew of the Church of Ireland, he believed it was distinguished by fidelity, usefulness, and every quality which was calculated to give to its disciples the solace of religion, and prove to them a blessing. Now, with regard to the question of the Church, it was admitted that if the clergy discharged their duties usefully and properly, they ought to be paid, and if they were to be paid, he supposed it would also be admitted that the labourer was worthy of his hire. If, then, this was a charge upon property, why should it he taken away? He considered that there was no reason for any alteration in that respect; and Dr.

1431
West, of Dublin, was of opinion that the charge was purely made upon property, though he suggested that there might be a new valuation, as in the case of other rates. The only other question raised in this discussion was relative to the Church Temporalities Act, which laid down certain principles for their government, and of which it had been said that as the Legislature had created those principles, the Legislature might get rid of them and substitute any other—the professed object of the investigation which was proposed being to see whether there was any surplus beyond what was required for the maintenance of the Church. With regard to the Church Temporalities Act, he warned hon. Gentlemen that it was a dangerous subject to open. If they looked at the 5th Article of the Act of Union, and at the Catholic Emancipation Act, they would see that legislation on the subject ought not to be interfered with. If hon. Gentlemen opened this subject, he warned them that it must lead to the Maynooth grant being questioned on that (the Opposition) side of the House. They should take care how the question was opened, as there were parties on that side of the House, who valued truth as much as it was professed to value religious liberty on the other. With regard to the Church Temporalities Act, it removed the first-fruits, which were originally imposed as an annual tax upon benefices, and the vestry cess for repairing churches, because it was more a personal tax than one upon property, into the hands of the Commissioners. The trusts created by that Act, however, could not be discharged, because there were not sufficient funds for the purpose. He had heard one hon. Member say that the number of churches were more than sufficient; but in the diocese of Cork there were forty schools with congregations sufficiently large for churches, but the Commissioners had no funds to build them. In the diocese of Down, the late bishop had consecrated forty new churches. He did not at all believe that the Roman Catholics were generally desirous of having any alteration with regard to the Church; and he could tell the hon. Member for Meath, who had spoken on the subject, that the Roman Catholic proprietors, on a rate being made, had refused to allow one penny to be deducted from the clergy. It was sometimes stated in that House that the church property amounted to an immense sum; but he thought hon. Members ought to inform themselves better
1432
upon the subject before they made those general and sweeping assertions. The question was asked, were they at liberty, under present circumstances, to make any alteration by which this charge should be taken off the owners of property? He was perfectly willing to remove any real grievances that existed, but he was not prepared to make the present charge upon property the subject of legislation. He asked the House what was the real principle they were advocating. He had heard one hon. Member, with a great deal of zeal, and, he had no doubt, with a great deal of sincerity, state that he was in favour of the voluntary principle, and that he never should be satisfied until the Established Church in Ireland was put down. Now, as he (Mr. Napier) understood the voluntary principle, it was that no one had a right to interfere with the religion of another; and if that were the case, what right had the hon. Member to interfere with regard to the Established Church? An hon. Gentleman said that the Protestant Church in Ireland possessed a revenue of 1,000,000 l. He defied him to prove that from authentic documents. He maintained that the funds of that Church belonged to the right of succession, and he defied any party to show good reason why it should be alienated. They held the Protestant Church to be the true and right Church; and while it wanted not the property of others, it had a right to have this secured to it which was originally granted by Act of Parliament. If they carried out the principle of the Church Temporalities Act, they would see that there was no pretext for this measure. A census was taken of the population in 1831, and they had all the materials at that period for coming to a right conclusion upon the subject. Under that Act it was provided that no benefice under 300 l a year could be taxed, and small benefices were to be augmented until they reached 200 l. a year. The entire income of the Protestant parochial clergy only amounted to an average of 170 l. a year, and 600 persons formed the average number of the congregation. No substitute was offered for this provision, and it would be an injustice, therefore, to agree to the Motion.
MR. REYNOLDSsaid, that there were two things perfectly clear in the speech delivered by the hon. and learned Member who had just addressed the House: first, that he was a sincere defender of the Protestant Church as by law established; and,

1433
secondly, that he was an excellent special pleader. But, although the hon. and learned Member had made a most ingenious speech, he did not think that the magnates of the Church would be much obliged to him when they heard the defence which he had made for them. The hon. and learned Member had commenced by saying, let them keep what they had, and take nothing from them. He would have the hon. and learned Member to recollect that the enormous revenues of the Protestant Church once belonged to the Catholic Church of England and Ireland, and that they were taken by force from them, and the spoliation had been sanctioned by subsequent Acts of Parliament. The hon. Member for the city of Cork had not proposed to spoliate the Church; he had proposed to transfer the charge of 15,000 l. to some other fund; it was not his wish to deprive the Protestant Church of a single penny. He (Mr. Reynolds) did not quite go with him to that extent; he was prepared to protect, by every means in his power, the interest of the present incumbents, but he was not prepared to perpetuate what he would call the spoliation of the people. Dublin, the city which he had the honour to represent, contributed 11,000 l. out of the 15,000 l. raised in Ireland for ministers' money, Cork 2,000 l.; and the remainder of the sum was spread over six towns in the provinces of Leinster and Munster. His constituents had therefore a double right to complain of the injustice of this imposition. Four-fifths of the population of Dublin were compelled to pay for the support of a religion which they repudiated, and yet the hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin had called that no grievance. The hon. Member for Warwickshire had raked up some old and obsolete Orders in Council, that might have done very well for an Exeter Hall speech, but were not suited for this House; and he had spoken of the oaths imposed upon Catholic Members of this House, putting what he (Mr. Reynolds) considered a very erroneous construction upon them. He represented a constituency consisting of all religious denominations, and denied that he was sent there because he was a Catholic; he stood there as a representative of the people, and had duties to perform as such. He took the oath conscientiously, and was yet prepared to curtail the temporalities of the Irish Protestant Church; he would go further, and declare himself prepared, with a
1434
clear conscience, to vote for its total abolition, if he believed the necessities of the State required it. ["Oh, oh!"] He would repeat the declaration; and unless they could convince him—which he thought it would be very difficult to do—[Cries of"Hear, hear!"] They should allow him to finish his sentence—unless they could convince him that ministers' money formed part of the Protestant religion, he would vote with a perfectly clear conscience for its total abolition. The hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin had said this was a tax upon the house, and not upon the man; but this was only a distinction without a difference; for if he (Mr. Reynolds) bought a plot of ground in Dublin, and built a house upon it, the Protestant rector could compel him to pay Is in the pound upon 60 l., for the cure of souls. Now, he being a Catholic, the tax could not be for the cure of his soul, for he did not think the Protestant doctor the best doctor, and therefore did not seek his assistance. This reminded him of the old story of Dean Swift and the old Dublin barber, Timothy O'Brien. The dean's collector could not persuade Timothy, do all that he could, to pay the tax towards his reverence's income, the obstinate barber maintaining that he got no value, being a Catholic, and therefore would not pay it. Timothy, however, was sent for by the reverend dean, and told, that it was his own fault that he received no value for his money, because the church doors were always open to him, and he might avail himself of its services if he chose. Timothy said, "Is that the doctrine?" and being answered by his reverence in the affirmative, then paid. The worthy shaver, however, acting upon the precedent laid down by his reverence, a few days after sent in a bill to the deanery for 3l. 10 s, (being the same amount as he had paid for ministers' money) for dressing his reverence's wig and shaving him for the last throe years. The dean, astonished at receiving such a demand, seeing that his own servant both shaved him regularly and dressed his wig, sent for the barber, who coolly explained that it was true he had never actually performed any shaving or dressing for his reverence, but still that was purely his own fault, because his shop was always open for him to come and be shaved whenever he required it. The dean at once recognised the force of the shrewd barber's retort, returned the ministers' money, and never sent his collector to

1435
levy ministers' money from him again. Now, it would be well if the House would follow the example of the worthy dean upon this question, and give to Catholics that exemption from the tax to which they had a fair claim, as they did not receive any value for their money. The Committee which sat upon this question last year made a very milk-and-water sort of report. He (Mr. Reynolds) was a Member of it, and had proposed an Amendment to the effect that the exaction of ministers' money in Ireland was regarded as a serious grievance by Catholics and Protestant Dissenters; and that a Bill ought to be introduced to abolish this tax, and charge the Ecclesistical Commissioners' fund with the sum annually raised in the towns now subject to this impost. However, the Committee, by a majority of one, rejected this suggestion; his right hon. Friend the Master of the Mint, who was Chairman of the Committee, and a Catholic, kneeling at the same altar with him (Mr. Reynolds), giving his casting vote against him. It could not surely be said, that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners could not afford to pay this money; their income was not less in permanent and casual receipts than 118,000 l. a year. The returns showed that, during the last twelve years they had received 1,629,000 l., and spent 1,628,000 l.; and it was not at all very clear to him, that if their income were six times as much, they would not spend it all, and still leave themselves without a balance in hand. How did they appropriate this money? 992,000 l. of this 1,629,000 l. had been laid out within the twelve years upon church requisites, rebuilding, and repairs; incidents of offices, 19,436 l.; salaries, 86,260?.; law costs and payments, 21,808 l.; and bibles (the smallest sum of all seemed to be spent in the distribution of bibles), 3,174 l. The charge for salaries was 12¾ per cent upon the gross total receipts. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin had charged him (Mr. Reynolds) with stating the income of the Irish Established Church to be one million, and said himself that it was not more than 600,000 l. Now he (Mr. Reynolds) found that the tithe-rent charge exceeded half a million, and that the bishops' lands and glebe lands amounted to 730,000 acres; so that it occurred to him that if the income of the establishment in Ireland was not a million, it ought at all events to be very near it. But, even taking the hon. and learned Gentleman's
1436
own admission, that it was 600,000 l.—[Mr. NAPIER was hero understood to deny that he had made any such admission]—here in Ireland, the poorest country in the world, and the most Catholic country in all Europe, they had a Church having only 700,000 of a population, possessed of an annual income of no less than 600,000 l. exclusive of the bishop and glebe land; whilst, on the other hand, there were 6½ millions of Catholic population, and as many Presbyterians and other Protestant Dissenters as belonged to the Establishment, supporting their own religion in almost every instance by their own voluntary contributions. As a Catholic, he had to thank the hon. Member for Middlesex for his declarations regarding the Irish Established Church. He (Mr. Reynolds) still regarded the temporalities of that Church as a brand and mark of degradation upon his Catholic fellow-countrymen; and he believed, as an Irishman and a Catholic, that he would never be really emancipated so long as that plague-spot was allowed to exist in Ireland. He would tell the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite that he was not aware of what was brewing for him. He must prepare himself for a most extensive agitation against the temporalities of that Church; for he would tell the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite that the Catholics of Ireland would never cease agitating until the Irish Church temporalities were entirely abolished. Why should any hon. Gentleman censure him for declaring these to be his sentiments? He would give hon. Gentlemen opposite the benefit of any advantage they could derive from this declaration; for he would tell them that he should consider himself unworthy of the name of a freeman if he tamely submitted to a monster injustice that would not be tolerated a moment in any other part of the civilised globe. Now, they had to govern Ireland by an army of 40,000 troops, together with no less than 14,000 of a constabulary force; but let them only remove the Irish Established Church, and they would have no need to keep up any such expensive means of coercion. Would the Protestant Gentlemen of England submit to support a Catholic Establishment? He would bring the matter home to their bosoms. He would ask if a Catholic collector walked into the house of a Protestant, and demanded 5l. for the support of the Catholic priesthood, what would be the result? It was not clear to him that the collector would not get more kicks than

1437
halfpence. Measure for measure he said. If allegiance was wanted from Irishmen—allegiance based on the broad feeling of affection—the attempt to force the Protestant Church on Ireland would not be continued. This was a section of that Church. He called on the Premier, in the name of his Catholic fellow-citizens, to raise his voice in favour of the Catholic people of Ireland, and help to emancipate them from this intolerable insult. A number of respectable Protestant clergymen were examined before the Committee, all of whom declared they wished for a change in the system of ministers' money; and many wished it altogether abolished. They said it was an unpleasant mode of collecting their subsistence, and he firmly believed the majority of those who obtained benefit from this ministers' money would be in favour of change. He hoped the Administration would do something to show the Catholic people of Ireland that they were not thus to be continually insulted.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONcould assure the House it was not his intention, at that late hour, to occupy their time for more than a few minutes; and he rose merely for the purpose of setting the House right with regard to some most extraordinary statements of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. The hon. Gentleman had stated that the income of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners was 120,000 l. a year. Now, by the return in his (Mr. Hamilton's) hand, in the appendix to the report on ministers' money, page 286, the Commissioners themselves, who were the best authority, estimate their present income at precisely 71,574 l. The hon. Gentleman had stated that the income of the Established Church in Ireland was a million; and when questioned by his (Mr. Hamilton's) hon. Colleague on the subject, the hon. Member had endeavoured to make up that amount by estimating the value of the lands belonging to the bishoprics. Exaggerations were common in that House with reference to the property of the Established Church—but he could scarcely persuade himself that the hon. Member for the city of Dublin, when he made that statement, must not have been aware that under the Church Temporalities Acts in Ireland, the tenants of the bishops' estates have acquired, or have the right of acquiring, a perpetuity in their lands; so that the Church, in point of fact, receives only a rent-charge or head-rent from them. The lands, therefore, and their value, become the property of the
1438
tenant. The real state of the case is as follows:—The income of the parochial clergy at the present time is about 369,000 l. a year, subject to heavy deductions for ecclesiastical tax and poor-rate: that of the bishops, about 57,000 l.; that of the dignitaries, deans, &c., about 20,000 l.; and that of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, as he had stated, about 71,000 l.; and this property of the parochial clergy, if divided amongst them, would give an income of about 170 l. to each clergyman, as already stated by his hon. Colleague. He would add, that he could not felicitate the right hon. Gentleman the Master of the Mint on the result which had followed from the adoption of his report. He was sure he must have heard the speeches to-night in reference to the Church in Ireland, and sentiments expressed on his own side of the House, in which he and his Colleagues could not concur. He alluded particularly to the speeches of the hon. Members for the city of Dublin and Meath. For his own part he was glad those hon. Members had spoken out. It was better the Protestants of England and of Ireland should know what were the real objects and designs of the party to which those hon. Members belonged. He lamented that there should have been any such manifestations of warmth of feeling, but it could not be said that it originated on his side of the House. [Mr. J. O'CONNELL: The hon. Member for North Warwickshire.] He said his hon. Friend (Mr. Newdegate) was forced into it by the speech of the hon. Member for Middlesex. He approved of the course the Government had taken in moving the previous question. There were objections to the system of ministers' money in Ireland, as he had always admitted, and he should be ready at any time to assist in remedying them.
MR. J. O'CONNELLsaid, the hon. Member for North Warwickshire had brought forward the most offensive topic possible to the Catholics, for the charge was involved in his words of tampering with the oaths taken by the Catholic Members. The hon. Member for Middlesex's proposition was a fair subject for discussion—the other was not. They could not pretend to say that the present question had reference to the Protestant Establishment. The fairest way was to speak out at once, and to say that a Protestant Establishment among a Catholic people was a nuisance. Now, with respect to the oath. On the last occasion, when this

1439
topic came before the House, he had warned them that bad blood and ill-feeling would be created. He had felt it to be so, and he had announced himself as ready to return his public charge into his constituents' hands rather than be supposed to act in any way against the oath he had taken. But the House had shrunk from giving the oath that interpretation. The hon. Gentleman who had devised the Bill—who adopted and identified himself with the form of words taken by the Catholic Members, had refused to give that interpretation to the oath, and said hon. Members were each to judge for themselves. He had looked to the oath. There were two parts in it; when taken, the Catholic Member said he would not exercise any privilege—he would not, in fact, do anything—to subvert the Protestant Church. Now, if those words stood alone, they would be very strong, and Catholic Members could not fairly do anything to subvert the Protestant Establishment. But when did Catholic Members bring forward a measure to totally subvert the Protestant Establishment? All they did was to attempt to modify that Establishment. ["Oh, oh!"] He would tell lawyers who were in that House to look to the context—"to subvert the Protestant Establishment, as established by law." Now, what law had settled, law could unsettle. They were there to make laws, and, if necessary, to alter or repeal laws. The Protestant Church had already been altered by law, and was no longer the same Protestant Church as established by law. He did not propose to alter the Church, but he would not come into that house with his hands tied. He had never proposed to subvert the Protestant Establishment, whether that establishment rightfully or wrongfully existed. He would not deprive his Protestant fellow-subjects of what they had so long enjoyed by law. But he wanted to know whether the Protestant religion meant money? If so, he granted them at once the whole argument. The hon. Member for North Warwickshire had come to the verge of charging Catholic Members with tampering with their oath. Now, the hon. Member himself had sworn that no foreign Power or prelate had any spiritual power in these kingdoms. Did he not know that a foreign Power had spiritual jurisdiction in these kingdoms? He (Mr. J. O'Connell) confessed it—he was the Pope's spiritual subject, and all Irish Catholics were the spiritual subjects of the Pope. The Pope had spiritual
1440
jurisdiction in these kingdoms, and yet the hon. Member had sworn he had not. He regretted that the Motion was brought forward in the shape it was before the House, because it was clear that there was to be no compromise on the other side; therefore it would have been better to have simply moved the abrogation of the tax, in which he would have been countenanced by not only Protestant Dissenters, but many members of the Church itself.
SIR J. TYRELLsaid, that hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House were going the wrong way to settle these differences by bandying charges of bigotry and intolerance against those who did not agree with them in religious belief. Members in that House attached to the Protestant religion were charged with quoting the opinions of bigoted authorities in support of their views. But he would refer to the opinions held by an authority to whom he presumed hon. Gentlemen opposite would not presume to object—he meant Mr. Macaulay, lately one of the most eloquent and able Members of the Whig Cabinet. The hon. Baronet proceeded to road an extract, in which Mr. Macaulay stated that there was amongst the English a strong conviction that a Roman Catholic, where the interests of his religion were concerned, considered himself freed from all the ordinary rules of morality; and that, in order to avert scandal or injury to his Church, he was justified in violating those rules of morality. He also quoted from Mr. Whiteside's book on Italy, from which it appeared that whilst the learned gentleman was in Italy, he ascertained that Pope Pius IX. would not permit any persons happening to reside in Italy or Rome to make allusion to a future state on the tombstones, but confined them to a mere reference to the virtues of the deceased. He gave these extracts, he said, for the benefit of those hon. Gentlemen who would destroy the Protestant Church in Ireland. ["No, no!"] Hon. Gentlemen might pretend that they only intended the abolition of the temporalities of that Church, but he believed their designs went much farther. At all events, the way to bring about a little more harmony on these matters was not by making charges of bigotry against those who sat on his (Sir J. Tyrell's) side of the House. He deprecated such discussions, as they only tended to raise dissensions. If any substitute could be found for the impost, he would be happy to support any measure that would render

1441
the support of the Church more harmonious; but he could not agree to the abolition of the temporalities of the Church altogether,
Whereupon Previous Question put—" That that Question be now put."
The House divided:—Ayes 44; Noes 72: Majority 28.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

O'Brien, T.

Barron, Sir H. W.

O'Connell, J.

Blake, M. J.

O'Connell, M. J.

Brotherton, J.

O'Flaherty, A.

Callaghan, D.

Osborne, R.

Cowan, C.

Pearson, C.

Crawford, W. S.

Pilkington, J.

Dawson, hon. T. V.

Power, N.

Devereux, J. T.

Raphael, A.

D'Eyncourt, rt. hn. C. T.

Scholefield, W.

Duncan, G.

Scully, F.

Fox, W. J.

Strickland, Sir G.

Grattan, H.

Sullivan, M.

Greene, J.

Tenison, E. K.

Hastie, A.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Heywood, J.

Thompson, Col.

Heyworth, L.

Thornely, T.

Hume, J.

Wawn, J. T.

Kershaw, J.

Willcox, B. M.

Lawless, hon. C.

Wyld, J.

M'Cullagh, W. T.

Meagher, T.

TELLERS.

Moore, G. H.

Fagan, W.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Reynolds, J.

List of the NOES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Adderley, C. B.

Hawes, B.

Alexander, N.

Hay, Lord J.

Archdall, Capt. M.

Henley, J. W.

Bagshaw, J.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir F. T.

Hodgson, W. N.

Baring, T.

Hope, A.

Bourke, R. S.

Jervis, Sir J.

Boyd, J.

Keppel, hon. G. T.

Bramston, T. W.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Brooke, Sir A. B.

Lewis, G. C.

Carter, J. B.

Lockhart, W.

Cavendish, hon. C. G.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Cavendish, hon. G. H.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Christy, S.

Napier, J.

Cole, hon. H. A.

Newdegate, C. N.

Corry, rt. hon. H. L.

Ogle, S. C. H

Deedes, W.

Paget, Lord A.

Dick, Q.

Palmerston, Visct.

Duncuft, J.

Parker, J.

Dundas, Adm.

Patten, J. W.

Dundas, G.

Rich, H.

Ebrington, Visct.

Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.

Edwards, H.

Sotheron, T. H. S.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Stafford, A.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Stanley, hon. E. H.

Filmer, Sir E.

Townley, R. G.

Forbes, W.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Granby, Marq. of

Vesey, hon, T.

Grenfell, C. W.

Vivian, J. E.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Watkins, Col. L.

Grogan, E.

Willoughby, Sir H.

Hale, R. B.

Wilson, J.

Hamilton, G. A.

Wodehouse, E.

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Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Young, Sir J.

TELLERS.

Hill, Lord M.

Grey, R. W.

The House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock.

Preamble
MINUTES. PUBLIC BILLS,—2a Petty Sessions.
3a Outdoor Paupers.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Stradbroke, from the Parish of Boyton, and several other Places, for the Repeal of all Enactments occasioning Unequal Competition between the English and Foreign Grower.—From Donegal, against the proposed Rate in Aid (Ireland).—By the Earl of Erne, from Kildare, for the Re-enactment of the Act 28 George III. Cap. 57, on account of the Robbery and Wilful Destruction of Sheep.—By the Bishop of Llandaff, from Llanvetherine, for the Adoption of Measures for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution.—From the Port of Fraserburgh, against any Alteration of the Navigation Laws.

PETTY SESSIONS BILL.
LORD CAMPBELL, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said its object was to place cities and boroughs on the same footing as counties with regard to Petty Sessions Courts; and to enable the magistrates to secure suitable places in which to hold their petty sessions. The noble and learned Lord, from the returns which had been presented on the Motion of the Marquess of Salisbury, quoted several instances of the inconvenience to which magistrates had been subjected for the want of proper accommodation. The Bill was intended to be permissive only, not compulsory, and it proposed that the expenses should be paid out of the county rate.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURYsaid, this Bill was brought in for the benefit of certain gentlemen who were very useful to the country, but who were interested in providing places for holding the petty sessions, which were held to the number of 730 throughout the entire country. The noble Marquess complained of the great cost which it must entail on the ratepayers. The smallest cost of the erection of any of these buildings would be 500 l.; and under any circumstances it ought not to be paid out of the county rate, but it should be a charge

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on the Consolidated Fund. He did not think any case had been made out for the passing of this Bill; and he therefore begged to move that it be read a second time that day six months.
The EARL of MALMESBURYsaid, the noble and learned Lord had chosen a most unfortunate time for bringing forward such a measure. He should like to see the system of local taxation reformed, for it had become almost intolerable, and no one could doubt that the pressure on the county rate was already very severe. The poor-rate and county rate in his own parish of Christ Church had increased to an alarming extent within the last twelve years; and he was not inclined to give magistrates a further discretionary power to increase those rates until the whole system of local taxation had been amended. He thought personal property should be liable to the payment of rates as well as real property. Personal property was that which was generally stolen, notwithstanding which the cost of maintaining the gaols and lunatic asylums was thrown entirely on the land.
After a few words from Lord CAMPBELL, LORD STANLEY suggested to his noble Friends behind him, whether the measure might not be modified in Committee in such a manner as to meet their wishes, and then if they did not succeed in removing what they considered obnoxious, they might move to reject the Bill on the third reading. As to the question of county rates there was no subject more worthy of their Lordships' consideration than the great and rapid increase of the county rates. He thought that he was not mistaken in saying, that in his county in 1823 the county rates amounted to 77,000 l., whilst in 1849 they reached 179,000 l. He must say that there was a great and a general feeling that the power vested in magistrates at quarter-sessions required revision and control. It appeared to him to be a great anomaly that a sum of money, amounting to 179,000 l., should be assessed by the local magistrates without any influence being exercised over it by the ratepayers. He must say that when the burdens on the land were so great, it was the duty of their Lordships to watch with constitutional jealousy any progress to increase the expenditure of counties. True it was that this Bill was only permissive; but still it gave a power to the magistrates to increase the rates for the purpose of promoting their own comforts and convenience.
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But what their Lordships had to guard against was the possibility of a profuse expenditure. He would, therefore, propose to omit the words enabling the magistrates to provide accommodation by means of building. If they gave to the magistrates the power of building, they would give a great temptation to profuse expenditure; and he would advise his noble Friends to add a proviso that no buildings should be erected in places where they did not already exist, and that they should be restricted to the having of proper places, and that they should not even do that without the authority of the magistrates in quarter-sessions assembled, and notice being previously given of the intention to raise such question to the magistrates at large. This Bill, he thought, went beyond the necessity of the case. He would again submit to his noble Friends whether the whole object they had in view would not be answered by allowing the Bill to be read a second time, and amending it in Committee.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, he was not certain whether he understood this Bill. Lately many Acts had passed which gave certain powers to magistrates assembled at petty sessions; but these acts did not extend the jurisdiction to where boroughs and city magistrates were sitting together. He believed, however, that the object of the first part of this Bill was to extend that power to such magistrates; and to that part of the Bill he thought no objection could be taken. With regard to the second part of the Bill, that was a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence. If this were an Act to enforce the building of these houses for holding petty sessions, and fixing an amount of rate on the county, then it would be an objectionable Bill; but it appeared to him that the measure was modelled on the Bill called the Lock-up Houses Bill, with which many of their Lordships were acquainted.
After a few words from the Earl of HARROWBY and Lord CAMPBELL, which were inaudible in the gallery.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURY, upon the understanding that some amendments would be introduced in Committee, withdrew his amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Bill read 2a

AUSTRALIA.
LORD MONTEAGLE, pursuant to notice, asked "whether it be the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill during

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the present Session for effecting changes in the constitution of Australia? Whether, in the event that such is the intention of the Secretary of State, despatches or other papers will be laid before Parliament, showing whether such constitutional changes have been submitted to the Legislative Council, and made known to Her Majesty's subjects in Australia?"
EARL GREYaaid, it was intended to introduce such a measure. The papers on the subject had already been laid on the table of the other House of Parliament, in compliance with an address to the Crown; and the Government had reason to believe that the contemplated Bill would meet with the views of the people of Australia, He had endeavoured to induce the House of Commons to relax the rule which prevented his introducing the Bill in their Lordships' House; but his efforts were wholly unsuccessful, otherwise that Bill would now be before their Lordships. But it was not deemed prudent to bring it in at the present moment in the other House, in consequence of the pressure of business.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that under those circumstances he hoped his noble Friend would produce, as soon as possible, the papers which had been laid before the other House.
House adjourned to Thursday next.