Sitting of 30 July 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3a Nuisances Removal and Diseases Prevention; General Board of Health; Metropolitan Sewers; Slave Trade (Persian Gulf); Defects in Leases Suspension; Treasury Instruments; Customs; Stamp, &c. Allowances; Workhouse Loans (Ireland); Turnpike Acts Continuance; Consolidated Fund Appropriation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Redesdale, from Sheer ness, against the General Board of Health Bill.—By the Earl of Harrowby, from Bury, Huddersfield, and other Places, against the Granting of any New Licenses to Beer Shops. From the County Palatine of Lancaster, for the Establishment of a General System of Secular Education, to be supported by Local Rates.—From Huntingdon, in favour of Freemen's Lands Bill.—From Cork, in favour of Sanitary Reform (Ireland).

DISTRESS IN THE WEST INDIES.
The EARL of HARROWBYsaid, that he was now about to call the attention of their Lordships to a subject, on which he should be obliged to occupy some of their Lordships' time. He begged to present a petition signed on behalf of the Standing Committee of the West India Merchants and Planters. It was no agreeable subject that he had to call their Lordships' attention to, considering that the tale was one that had been often told, and presented but one continued series of disappointment, embarrassment, and distress. He thought that the whole history of the conduct of the British Parliament to the parties connected with the West India islands was one of the most melancholy and unfortunate that could be conceived, and was accompanied by a very largo amount of injustice. He was not one of those who wished to throw any blame on the great measure of emancipation; on the contrary, accompanied as it was, on the part of this country, with the sacrifice of 20,000,000 l. sterling for an object in which no national or personal interest of a sordid nature was engaged, he thought it one of the most noble acts which had over distinguished any nation. But since that time he confessed his own feeling was that the glory of that achievement had been much tarnished, partly by the want of wisdom and consideration which had been displayed in the measures which ought to have accompanied and followed emancipation, and partly and more particularly by the manner in which Parliament had neglected the interests of our own colonies, and exposed them to unlimited competition
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with parties who had the full benefit of that iniquity which had been put an end to in our own colonies. He felt that he was himself in some degree an accomplice in the act by which this was accomplished, having voted for the measure of 1846. The original step was taken by the Act of 1845, which admitted sugar from foreign colonies, not having slaves, to competition with the sugar produced by free labour in our own colonies. The full effect of that measure was hardly anticipated at the time. It was, in public apprehension, an encouragement given to countries which were limited in extent, and having peculiar claims to the favour of this country, on account of their not permitting slavery within their dominions. But, unfortunately, the effect of that measure was practically to bring our colonies into competition, not only with foreign colonies working by free labour, but also with the white market of the world, with countries not only having slaves, but also extensively engaged in carrying on the slave trade. The second stage of progress, therefore, by which foreign slave-labour sugar was formally and directly admitted into our markets, was the natural and logical consequence of the first, although that consequence was not apprehended at the time; and, in fact, no step for the exclusion of slave-labour sugar could be effectual for its object. However unjust, however inconsistent, however ruinous in their consequences these steps had been, he still did not expect they would be retraced; and he should only be doing mischief if he held out such expectations. Even if the attempt succeeded, it could only be, after all that had passed, for a time: without going back and excluding all foreign sugar whatever, hopes would be excited which would not be realised, and parties would be induced to embark their capital upon a basis which could not be long maintained. Other remedies, or at least mitigations, must be looked to, more in consonance with present views of legislation, less likely to become the object of party struggle or popular agitation; and to these only would be direct the attention of their Lordships. The great deficiency in our emancipated colonies notoriously was a security for continuous labour; and it should have been the first object of the emancipation to provide for it by every possible means. Attempts had been made in the colonies to get permission for the Colonial Office to

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endeavour to prevail upon the emancipated negroes to enter into engagements to labour for a longer period of time. But, unfortunately, the influence of the struggle for emancipation was still too strongly felt. Parties were still under the impression that they could not benefit the employer without injuring the labourer, and the permission was refused. But whatever might be said against allowing the emancipated negro of the colonies to fetter himself by long engagements, surely it might have been permitted in the case of labourers imported as strangers. Without such engagement, individuals would not incur the expense of their introduction; and when they were introduced at the expense of the colonial fund, they in too many instances formed no permanent connexion, but wandered about the colonies as idle and useless vagabonds. In the case of such importations, or of those of the emancipated negroes by the slave ships, surely such engagements should not only be permitted but encouraged. It was a point, therefore, which he wished to urge on their Lordships' consideration, whether, with a view to the interests of the immigrants themselves, greater encouragement should not be given to the making of contracts to servo for a longer period than was at present allowed. He believed that they were now limited to a duration of twelve months, and it was full six months before any advantage whatever was derived by the employer from the labour of the immigrant. On this point there was very strong testimony. He knew that much jealousy was felt lest, under the name of apprenticeship or contract labour, a modified system of slavery should be introduced. But he thought that all apprehensions on that score might safely be dismissed from the minds of their Lordships, when he stated that Sir James Carmichael Smith, Lord Metcalfe, and Sir C. Grey, the past and present Governors of Jamaica and Guiana—parties quite sufficiently jealous for the interests of the labouring population, and most competent to form a sound judgment—were all of opinion that eon-tracts to serve for a longer period than one year, were not only admissible but desirable; and had expressed this opinion in the strongest way in the official papers which had been laid on their Lordships' table. This was one of the points to which he wished the attention of Parliament should be directed, as a supply of
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continuous labour was essential to enable the colonists to carry on the cultivation of sugar successfully. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of their Lordships was the loan which was granted last year by Parliament to these colonies. Among other measures of relief, recommended by the Committee appointed last Session by the House of Commons to inquire into the distressed state of the West Indies, authority was given by Act of Parliament to the Treasury to advance 500,000 l. to the different West India colonies, which was to be distributed among them for the purpose of enabling them to undertake great works of internal improvement. But no part of that loan had been so applied, for the conditions imposed upon its acceptance by the colonists had discouraged them from taking any advance; and he believed that the noble Earl opposite was satisfied that all hope had disappeared of inducing the colonies to accept any portion of this 500,000 l. for the purpose of undertaking great public works or arterial drainage, as they would have to tax the white community for the interest, and the benefit would be in many cases only to individuals. But although there was no hope that advances would be accepted in this shape, yet if the money were advanced to individual proprietors for the improvement of their several properties on the same footing as money advanced to English and Irish proprietors, by taking first mortgages on their estates, he believed that it would have a very beneficial effect. It might be said that 500,000 l. would be a small sum for such a purpose; but he had been informed that it would prove most serviceable by introducing into the islands attempts at local and general drainage, which would induce others to follow the example set them. He was informed that the expense of drainage would amount to 5l. an acre, and the drainage of 100,000 acres would give an immense increase to the productive powers of the land, and set an example which would probably beget confidence in the future destinies of the colonies. He could hardly imagine that the principle could be objected to, as it was the same which was adopted in lending money to England, Scotland, and Ireland. He thought that the noble Earl the Secretary for the Colonies could hardly object to it on the ground of want of security, as he had on a former occasion expressed his conviction, that no investment could

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be more advantageous—he, at least, could hardly say that the estate of a West India proprietor was not as good a security as the estate of an Irish landlord. These were the two points which would be practically most advantageous to the West Indies, He could not urge on the House to reimpose the differential duties which existed at one time between our colonies and other countries, because he felt, that, if reimposed, they would not be long maintained, and the attempt therefore would only be a deception; but he felt that the situation of the West Indies was a matter of great importance to this country, both with reference to the interests of the colonies themselves, and to the carrying out of the great experiment of slave emancipation, and that no moans should be omitted by which the chance of a successful issue to that great experiment could be improved. If, after having emancipated our slaves, we exhibited to other countries the spectacle of ruined colonies, it could hardly be expected that they would follow the example set to them. At another period of the Session there would have been much that he might have pressed on the attention of their Lordships in connexion with this subject; but he did not wish to do more now than to press these two practical points, without entering into general subjects connected with the welfare of the colonies. He was aware, that the general distress in the colonies had been much disputed in another place, and that many figures had been quoted to disprove it; but on that occasion, as well as on others, the figures had been somewhat curiously selected. The figures quoted related to the year 1847, and the returns for the last year for 1848 were loft out, although it would have appeared from them that instead of an increase there was a decrease of 40,000 tons in the production of our colonies. The increase of 1847 was evidently the result of the impetus given to cultivation by the transactions of 1844 and 1845, which arose out of an expectation, not well founded, as it proved, that this country had determined to exclude foreign slave-grown sugar. He did not think that the noble Earl himself, who was apt to take rather a sanguine view of the condition of the colonies, would now deny that the West Indies were in a distressed state, he would hardly deny that the verdict of the House of Commons last year, in a Committee which was by no means favourable to the
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West India interests, had affirmed the great necessity for the immediate application of relief. If their Lordships looked to the low prices of sugar which at present prevailed, and to the general state of discouragement of all the planters in the colonies, it would be found that the condition of the West Indian colonies was not better, but even worse, than at the period when the Committee of the House of Commons came to the conclusion to which he had just referred. The verdict of that Committee was, that the British West India colonies were not yet prepared to enter into competition with the slave-grown sugar of other States, and on that ground they recommended a postponement of the term when that competition should be complete. Circumstances had not since materially changed, wages were not materially lower, credit was not improved. He wished he could hope that that period would be still further postponed for a definite period. At any rate he would beg his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department to state whether he could not hold out some hope to the colonies, if not by a return to the system of protection, or by arresting in some degree the rapid approach of that unfavourable competition to which they were so soon to be exposed with colonies carrying on the slave trade—at all events, that every possible facility should be afforded them in the management of their internal affairs, and for making engagements with immigrants, and the same advantages for availing themselves of the credit of the mother country for raising loans for the improvement of their property, which had been extended to the landed proprietors of England, Scotland, and Ireland.
EARL GREYthought that their Lordships would fully concur with him in opinion as to the inexpediency, at the present period of the Session, of entering into the discussion of so wide a question as that involved in the state and prospects of the West India colonies. It would be impossible to do justice to so largo a subject, and he should therefore simply confine himself to the subject of the loan to the West India Colonies, which had been referred to by the noble Earl, as having been sanctioned last year by Parliament. Upon that subject he had to inform the noble Earl that the Act of Parliament authorising the loans most scrupulously limited the discretion of the Government, and deprived them of the power of lending money

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to individual proprietors; and most undoubtedly he could hold out to their Lordships no expectation of any alteration taking place in that measure, because he felt perfectly persuaded, from his experience of former loans for the purpose of repairing damages by earthquakes, hurricanes, and similar misfortunes, that Her Majesty's 'Treasury possessed no adequate means or machinery for entering into arrangements with individual proprietors in the colonies, and that the only safe way in which the money could be advanced by this country to the colonies was upon the credit of the local legislatures, leaving to those bodies the task of providing for the distribution of the money for the purpose for which it was required. It was this consideration mainly that was the cause of the Act introduced last year having been framed in the manner it was. From all that he had heard and seen of the operation of former loans in the colonies, the more convinced he was of the absolute neccessity of adhering to that principle, and that it was altogether unsafe, in consequence of the British Treasury being totally without any adequate machinery for ensuring the proper application of the money, to enter into any arrangements with individual proprietors. So far, therefore, as the question of the loan was concerned, he could not hold out any expectation that Her Majesty's Government would recommend to Parliament any alteration of the Act.
The EARL of HARROWBYwas understood to ask whether any alteration was proposed to be made with respect to the duration of the contracts?
EARL GREYsaid, that upon the question of the duration of contracts, very ample information would be found in the despatches upon the table of the House, and he should be exceedingly sorry to enter into a subject of that nature which he could do only in an extremely imperfect manner, without the documents to refer to. He would only state that whatever arrangements had already been made, had been entered into with a view to what was considered the benefit of both planters and negroes. His conviction was, that the utter failure of the old scheme of apprenticeship had proved conclusively that the system of long contracts in day labour was no real inducement to industry, and would be, of all other systems, the one most likely to prove injurious to the interests of
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the colonists. From information which he had received from the Governors of some of the colonies, however, he was not prepared to say that the Governors would refuse their assent to any well-considered law providing for the extension of the period during which contracts might be legally made, subject, however, to this restriction that in no case should it be compulsory upon the emigrant to enter into such contract; and with this further restriction also—that with respect to liberated Africans who might be sent to the colonies, not at the expense of the colonies themselves, but at the expense of this country, and rescued by the cruisers of this country that with respect to them contracts should not be entered into on their behalf by the officers of the Government, except within that period which the Governor might think most advantageous, which would certainly be limited to a short period. He stated, that in the papers which he was about to present to the House, some valuable information would be found on the subject of the liberated Africans. When the time came for the proper discussion of the subject, he had no doubt but that it would be in his power to show that it was in the highest degree important with respect to liberated Africans that they should not be allowed to enter into long contracts.
EARL ST. VINCENTsaid, that the present state of the West India colonies was such as to call for the serious attention of Her Majesty's Government, with a view of devising some remedy for the protection and benefit of both labourers and landed proprietors in colonies. He felt satisfied that unless some remedy were speedily brought forward, a great number of estates would be entirely abandoned. Several instances had come to his knowledge of owners of estates having been compelled to abandon them in consequence of the great difficulties with which they had to contend. During the last year a considerable number of Coolies went to one estate where other Coolies had been at work for a considerable time, and persuaded them to demand such a sum for their labour as the proprietor of the estate could not afford to give, although he offered them a considerably larger sum, provided they would work by task-work, which they would not accept; ultimately both parties of the Coolies walked off the estate, and went to another part of the island.

THE STEAM NAVY.
EARL TALBOT EARL TALBOT moved for some further returns in connection with the steam navy. The noble Earl took that occasion to state, that as some remarks which had fallen from him upon a recent occasion had appeared to have given pain to Admiral Sir C. Napier, he was anxious to make a few observations on the subject. He did not think it at all necessary to follow the example of his gallant Friend, or to be led into any newspaper correspondence on the subject. In any observations which he had made upon that occasion, he had no wish whatever to hurt the feelings of a brother officer. He had merely alluded to the Sidon as being a vessel with which that gallant officer had had something to do; and he did so because he (Admiral Napier) had not been at all scrupulous in attacking other persons who had been engaged in building vessels, and he thought "that those who lived in glass houses ought not to throw stones." He had mentioned the case of the Sidon, as it was one of the many ships which had been built, and which, even after very expensive alterations, had not been found to answer. He might also mention that when that gallant Admiral stated that the fleet of this country was not able to cope with the French fleet, it would have been more consistent with his position as an Admiral if he had gone to the Prime Minister or the First Lord of the Admiralty, and privately explained to either of them the danger of the nation, instead of writing a public letter to the newspapers; making it public, not only in this country but also in France, He was, however, happy to say, that since he had called the attention of their Lordships to the subject, he had had conversations with several naval men on the subject, and that their opinion was that our steam fleet was a match for any steam fleet in the world.
Returns ordered to be laid before the House.

ACCOMMODATION OF THE HOUSE.
LORD BEAUMONT LORD BEAUMONT moved—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to request that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to give Directions that a Gallery be erected below the Bar, according to a Plan submitted by Mr. Barry, and approved of by this House."
[The object of this Motion is to make the present gallery for the reporters a permanent erection for their accommodation.]
Motion agreed to.
LORD BEAUMONTthen moved, "That the Standing Order, No. 18, be considered."
[The purport of the alteration proposed to be made in this Order is, that if any noble Lord shall wish to speak to another, they shall retire to the Prince's Chamber, and shall not converse in the space behind the woolsack; and, if they do, the Speaker shall call them to order, and shall stop the business then in agitation.]
LORD BROUGHAMwas inclined to object to that part which gave the Speaker the peculiar privilege of calling their Lordships to order. Their Speaker had not the same power as the Speaker of the House of Commons on points of order. He could only call their Lordships to order in his capacity as a Peer, and not as Speaker. He observed, that it would be much better if their Lordships would speak on their legs, and not on their seats. None but Judges had a right to speak on their seats; and to their Lordships speaking on their seats he had a fundamental objection. The conversation in the space behind the woolsack was conversation out of the House.
EARL GREYsaid, the question was whether the House should give its Speaker the same power as the Speaker had in the House of Commons. On that point much might be said, as the House was now more numerous, and he must add, more disorderly, than it was at the time when its Standing Orders were originally framed. Any Peer could call to order when conversation was going on within the House; but what was everybody's business (according to the old proverb) was nobody's business. What Lord Beaumont proposed was only this, that when Peers were engaged in conversation behind the woolsack, the Speaker should call them to order, not as Speaker, but as an individual Peer, which he had a right to do.
Order amended.

BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, and for taking into consideration the Standing Orders, Nos. 26, and 155, in order to their being dispensed with, read.
LORD MILFORD LORD MILFORD moved the Second Reading of the Bill,
LORD BROUGHAM: Tell us something about the Bill.
LORD MILFORDwas understood to say that the object of the Bill was to put an end to bribery at elections, and that he

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thought none of their Lordships would oppose the passing of a measure of that kind.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that if he wanted any additional motive for the Motion which he was about to make, he should find it in the evident incapacity of the noble Lord really to explain the provisions of the Bill which he had taken upon himself to move in so extraordinary and unprecedented a manner on Friday last. It was then stated that it was the intention to prorogue the House upon Tuesday or Wednesday next, and for the purpose of facilitating that prorogation, and the carrying of those Bills which it was absolutely necessary should pass their Lordships' House, they had, contrary to the usual practice, sat upon Wednesday and Saturday last, and went through a number of Bills with very considerable rapidity on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. It was then understood that their Lordships had full notice of all measures to be submitted to their consideration in the course of the present Session; and under that impression many noble Lords, and himself among others, had actually left London in the full conviction that it was impossible that any surprise should be attempted by the introduction of any measure of which no notice had been given. He was happy to think that the course which had been pursued in so unprecedented a manner was adopted by a noble Lord who had not had much experience in the practice of their Lordships' House. It was a proceeding which appeared to him not only inconsistent with the usages of the House, but also opposed to that ordinary fairness which, upon most occasions, he was bound to say characterised the conduct of the noble Marquess who represented the Government in that House. Upon the Friday to which he had alluded, the noble Lord (Lord Milford) undertook, without notice, to move, contrary to the usual practice, the second reading of a Bill which did not stand upon the Orders of the Day. The rule of the House requiring that proper notice should be given of the second reading of any Bill, was a most important one, and was particularly so at the present late period of the Session. He was surprised to find that the Government, instead of putting themselves forward, as was their duty under such circumstances, as the protectors of the House against surprises of this kind, in the first place sanctioned the attempt to have the Bill road a second time, and in the next place were the actual suggestors of the course—so
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much at variance with fair dealing and fair play—now proposed of reading the Bill a second time, and moving the suspension of the Standing Orders. With respect to the suspension of the Standing Orders, he thought that such a course ought only to be pursued under very special circumstances, for some great national object, and for passing within a limited time some measure the principle and details of which were generally agreed upon by a majority of their Lordships. Any stretch of the power of suspending the Standing Orders beyond that point, was to impose the tyranny of the majority upon the minority, and to deprive the House of the means which its practice had placed at the disposal of their Lordships for the due consideration of all the measures brought before them. Under these circumstances, it was clearly the duty of the Government to resist any attempt to suspend the Standing Orders; and he was surprised to find not only no resistance made on their part, but that the suggestion for facilitating the passing of this Bill proceeded from the Government itself. When he looked at the Bill itself, he saw no excuse whatever for adopting the course proposed with respect to it. The Bill had been in their Lordships' House not loss than a fortnight, and it was not until within two days of the close of the Session that any noble Lord had proposed to have the Bill read a second time. There had therefore been a delay on the part of the promoters of the Bill, if promoters there were in that House which of itself was sufficient to put them out of court on the question of the suspension of the Standing Orders. The measure itself was full of faults and defects, vicious both in principle and detail, and involved questions of so great importance that it was impossible that they could be properly considered by the House at that late period of the Session. When the noble Lord (Lord Milford) rose to move the second reading, he was called upon by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) to state something of the principle of the Bill; but all that was stated by the noble Lord, in answer to this request, was to the effect that a Bill to prevent bribery, which had been fully discussed in the other House, could not fail to meet with the approbation of their Lordships. He (Lord Stanley) thought that the noble Lord was himself perfectly ignorant of the measure, and did not think that he had ever taken the trouble to read a single word of it. The principle of the

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Bill was of the most objectionable character. [Lord BROUGHAM: Monstrous!] Its first provision was to the effect that any person who might be declared by the unanimous verdict of a Committee of the House of Commons to have been guilty of bribery, upon satisfactory evidence being adduced before such Committee—though such declaration might be made by a Committee of the House of Commons behind the back of a person accused—that person all his life shall be incapable of voting for Members of Parliament; and from one county to another—from one town to another—from one end of the kingdom to another—wherever he goes, that stigma was to follow after him. That judgment was to be passed upon a person by a tribunal before whom he never had been heard.
LORD BROUGHAM: And he might never be aware of the accusation.
LORD STANLEY: Even where a person only received refreshment, a fastidious Committee of the House of Commons might report that to be an act of corruption, and the unfortunate man would lose his franchise for the rest of his life. But though the person who bribed might thereby lose his right to vote, he did not lose his right to sit in Parliament except for that particular Parliament, and the borough in which he bribed. While they disfranchised the voter, they permitted the person who had bribed hundreds of those voters, to take his seat amongst the legislators of the country in the House of Commons, and there and in the passing of new Bills for securing the purity of election. He would, in the next place, call their Lordships' attention to the fifth clause. It enacted that if any petition for bribery be presented to a Committee of the House of Commons by an unsuccessful candidate, or by voters in his name or on his behalf, or by voters not in his name or on his behalf, but in their own, it shall be competent for the sitting Member to threaten the unsuccessful candidate, though he is not a petitioner, to present a petition to prove him guilty of bribery. And if that man were poor, and could not afford to appear before the Committee to defend his character, be, though not asking for the seat, and though not guilty of bribery, but not choosing to come forward and make his defence, would be told that be was guilty of bribery, and that all those penal consequences should follow. That was a clause to intimidate the poor man
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from presenting a petition against the wealthy man; and the effect of the clause would be, that not only injustice would be done, but they would, in point of fact, defeat the object the Bill professed to have in view. Those were two of the provisions of a Bill which they were called upon, on the 30th of July, to pass through all its stages in the course of one day, and to pass it on the Motion of a noble Lord who did not know what he was proposing, and had never read a syllable of the Bill he asked them to pass. He (Lord Stanley) had gone to the country when he heard the news of this monstrous proposition of Saturday last, and at a great inconvenience he felt it to be his bounden duty, while there was a possibility of this measure passing, to return to his place in that House, to denounce not so much the Bill as the corn-so taken to surprise the House into the passing of this Bill, and the smuggling it through the Legislature. When the noble Lord (Lord Milford) entered the House, he (Lord Stanley) was about to move that the order should be discharged; not because he thought it would be disrespectful to the noble Lord, but because be conceived that under the circumstances the noble Lord had thought it more prudent not to move the second reading. He (Lord Stanley) should now substitute for that Amendment the proposition, "that the Bill be read a third time this day three months."
EARL GREYwould not discuss the provisions of the Bill, because he admitted at once it was a Bill that ought not to pass during the present Session. If it were a fitting occasion to discuss the clauses of the Bill, he did not think from a hasty and cursory perusal of it that it would be difficult to show that the view taken of it by the noble Lord opposite was an extremely inaccurate view; but that was not the proper occasion to discuss it. With regard to the Bill, he concurred with the noble Lord in thinking that it was one for the passing of which, except by the general consent of the House, the Standing Orders ought not to be suspended; and he thought his noble Friend should adopt the suggestion that had been made to him, and withdraw the Bill. He (Earl Grey) understood that the Bill appeared in the Minutes of the Proceedings as a Bill of which the second reading would be moved by the noble and learned Lord opposite.
LORD BROUGHAM: No.
EARL GREY: Then the noble Lord disclaims it.
LORD BROUGHAM: I have nothing to do with it.
EARL GREYbelieved his noble Friend had been asked to move the Bill, with an assurance that it would be agreed to by all parties, and was so invited to move in the place of an absent Friend. It was a Bill that required consideration, and he should not object to its being postponed.
LORD BROUGHAMdenied the extraordinary charge made against him by the noble Earl, of having anything to do with the procreation of this most rickety bantling. He was bound, in defence of his own purity, to deny that it was his natural child at all. He admitted that he had repeatedly urged their Lordships to pass a Bribery Bill; but the proposal which he suggested, and which an honourable and much esteemed friend of his (Sir J. Pakington) had brought into the other House of Parliament was to this effect: It required a declaration to be made at the table by the Members of the other House of Parliament, that they had neither directly or indirectly given or authorised to be given any bribe, gift, promise, or other consideration whatever, for a vote, or to influence a vote, or directly or indirectly concerning a vote; and that they had never promised to fulfil any engagement made in their name in respect to any vote given on a former occasion. That was the Bribery Bill he had propounded, and that clause was in the Bill, and the Commons in its wisdom struck out the clause, which was the only part of the Bill he knew anything about, and they added to it the most monstrous provisions. He did not conceal his opinion from Sir J. Paking-ton, and told him it was utterly impossible he could support, or do otherwise than oppose, such a monstrous proceeding. He objected to trying a man in his absence, and condemning and punishing him in his absence, and without his knowledge. It was monstrous to think that this Bill should be passed in the other House of Parliament without opposition. It was one of the most marvellons sights—one of the greatest phenomenons in legislation he had ever witnessed.
LORD MILFORDwas understood to say that he should not press the Motion.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEbegged to make an observation in reply to the statement of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) with respect to the course taken
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by the Government in relation to the Motion for suspending the Standing Orders. Notwithstanding the course he (Lord Lansdowne) had taken on that oscasion, he had never expressed the least interest in the Bill, and he bogged leave distinctly to state, that the Bill was not a Government Bill.
On Question, that "now" stand part of the Motion, resolved in the Negative; and Bill to be read 2a this day three months.

THE NEW NAVIGATION LAW.
LORD WHARNCLIFFErose to bring forward the Motion of which he had given notice—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty for Copies of any Communications which may have passed between Her Majesty's Government and the Governments of Foreign Powers, in consequence of the passing of the Bill for the repeal of the Navigation Laws."
On presenting himself before their Lordships, he was bound to say that he would not have presumed to call their Lordships' attention to a Motion of this description at that late period of the Session—he might almost say the final moment of the Session—unless he was prepared to show that the peculiar circumstances of the case justified him in asking their attention. His justification for so doing was simply this—when the Bill passed their Lordships' House this Session, the object of which was to repeal the then existing Navigation Laws, it was provided, amongst the clauses of that Bill, that it should take effect on the first day of the ensuing year—the 1st of January, 1850; so that, in fact, it would come into operation during the recess, and it was most important that there should be no misapprehension or any ignorance on the subject. He objected at the time the Bill passed to the effect of that provision, feeling as he did that there were questions involved in the operation of the Bill which were of the greatest interest to the nation at large, and with respect to which it was but fair that Parliament should have some voice at the time, or about the time, the Act was to have effect; and he thought it only reasonable that the provision should be so altered as to bring the commencement of the operation of the Act within some period when the Legislature would be sitting. Their Lordships did not seem inclined to adopt his suggestion, and he did not then think it necessary to press it; but the effect of the provision passed by

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their Lordships was this, that before they should again assemble, the Act would be brought into operation, and that was the last opportunity any person feeling an interest in the consequences of that enactment could obtain of asking the Government what course it proposed to take with respect to the relations between this country and foreign States, and with respect to the exercise of the powers conferred on the Government to enable them to treat with some authority on this subject with foreign States. He considered the question as to what might be done by foreign States with respect to the Navigation Laws, as a matter of considerable moment. He had proposed an Amendment that would impose on Her Majesty's Government some duties with respect to communications with foreign Powers, and he need not rest altogether on argument to support that view of the case; he need do no more than appeal to the measures of the Government itself. If they did not entirely agree with him, to some extent at least they agreed with him in his view of the subject; and one of the features of this important measure was to give to Government powers of retaliation for the express purpose of inflicting penalties upon those Powers that might decline to meet them on fair terms of reciprocity. But supposing that those clauses regarding reciprocity were sufficient for all the purposes which their promoters intended, they did not, he conceived, preclude him from putting the question which he had put to the Government, or from making the Motion which he then submitted to the House. He must remind their Lordships of a paper presented to both Houses of Parliament at the time of the discussion on the Navigation Laws. He alluded to a despatch which had been written by the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in the month of December last, addressed to the British Ministers at foreign Courts. He (Lord Wharncliffe) would read a few sentences out of that letter. It was but fair he should remind their Lordships of the language held by the noble Lord on the subject, and which induced him to think it worth while to take the matter up. About the 2nd of December, 1848, the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs wrote as follows to our Ministers at foreign Courts:—
"You will point out to the—Government that although the proposed Bill will not attempt to make the relaxation in the British law strictly
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dependent upon the legislation of other countries, yet that the general policy of each State will be a matter for consideration when such relaxations are in question; and you will endeavour to obtain at the earliest possible period when—will be prepared to accept advances made on the part of Great Britain for placing the ships of the two countries on a footing of equality, with the single reservation of the coasting-trade, or whether the—Government would prefer to reserve any particular privileges or exemptions to their national vessels, on the understanding that it may thereby render it impossible for this country to concede to—'s shipping the whole of the advantages which will, under the Contemplated measure, attach to the shipping of such States as may place British and national vessels upon a footing of more perfect equality: for while the British Government are prepared to remove nearly the whole of the restrictions of the British Navigation Laws, in all cases where such a mea sure shall be mot in a spirit of corresponding liberality, it is impossible for them to lay down, with any precision, the course they may think fit to take where no such spirit is shown, until They shall be filly informed of all the circum stances which should be taken into their consideration.—I am, &c. "PALMERSTON."
The circular then recited the Bill of last Session, and proceeded in these words:—
"Ample powers were, however, reserved to the Crown to impose differential duties, prohibitions, or restrictions upon the ships of any country in which British ships should be subject to such duties, restrictions, or prohibitions; and it was intended that the Bill should not have come into operation for some months after the day on which it passed, in order that Her Majesty's Government might have time to ascertain the dispositions of foreign Powers, and might thus be able to frame the proper orders for any differential duties, &c. that might be required before the intended relaxations should begin to take effect towards the ships of such nations as might be willing to treat British shipping on a footing of perfect reciprocity."
He believed there was not a man in the country who considered the subject attentively who entertained any belief that reciprocity was practicable, in the strict sense of the term; but by the law, as the recent Bill had made it, our system of commercial intercourse had been most materially relaxed, and it therefore became the bounden duty of Ministers to render the change as little inconvenient to the country as possible. When he had on a former occasion alluded to this subject, Ministers had not repudiated the view that he took, and it struck his mind most forcibly that it might be regarded as a matter of indifference whether we asserted our claims to reciprocity by means of previous remonstrance, or by means of our clauses of retaliation. It amounted to the same thing whichever course we took. We had given up our exclusive rights to all commercial inter-

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course, foreign or colonial, to all but the coasting trade; and it became absolutely necessary that we should in other respects protect our interests by rendering that change as easy and as little injurious as possible. In the first place, with respect to France, the Government had a perfect right to demand that there should be some concession made; considering the relations between the two countries and the public policy of France, they should expect that they would concede something. Let them look, in the next place, to the case of the United States. They were in a position that entitled them to make a demand on that country; and if the Government properly availed themselves of their powers, they might obtain great advantages for the subjects of this country. He asked if America and this country now stood in the same position they formerly stood in with respect to each other? No; there is now a material difference in their positions, and it was the duty of the Government to obtain equal advantages for this country.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, there certainly was no objection to the noble Lord's calling the attention of the House to the subject in the manner that he had done, even though the Session was so near its termination; but he was sure the House would feel with him that it would be impossible for the Government to give any part of the information which the noble Lord now required; and for this, amongst other reasons, that there had been no time since the passing of the Bill to take any steps with a view to establishing principles of reciprocity, or rather the nearest approach to principles of reciprocity, that circumstances would permit. He could assure the noble Lord that the subject had not been lost sight of—that communications had been opened with different countries—that considerable progress had been made in our communications with Foreign Powers, and he hoped our negotiations would speedily be brought to a satisfactory conclusion—alike satisfactory to this and to other countries; but such a result must, of course, depend upon the views entertained on the subject by Foreign Powers. Finally, it must be obvious to the House that while negotiations were pending he could make no communications to Parliament; but he could assure the noble Lord that the Government felt as strong an interest now in the subject as at the time the Bill was passed, and that they were using their utmost endeavours to
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obtain from all countries a recognition of the principles of reciprocity.
On Question, resolved in the Affirmative.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
On the Order of the Day for the Consideration of the Commons' Amendments to the Lords' Amendments, and their Reasons, read.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he had to propose that their Lordships do agree to the Amendments of the House of Commons to their Lordships' Amendments to this Bill. The Government were of opinion that these Amendments ought to be adopted by their Lordships, with a view to the Bill being passed during the present Session. He thought their Lordships would be of opinion that there had been manifested by the House of Commons a great and anxious desire to meet the views of their Lordships; and he hoped that the liberal spirit of concession exhibited by the other House in deference to the views of their Lordships on this measure, would meet with a corresponding feeling of conciliation and forbearance on the part of that House. With respect to the most important and most questionable of the provisions of the Bill, namely, the enactment (for the first time, and on grounds admitted to be exceptional) establishing a maximum rate both in electoral divisions and in unions, clauses were introduced into the Bill by the Government which had been the subject of much discussion both in the other House, where these clauses were carried, and in their Lordships' House, where they were negatived. With respect to these clauses, the other House had waived considerations that usually had the greatest weight with them, and had carried, almost to an extreme, the desire to accept the Bill with their Lordships' Amendments. The other House had, be thought, wisely acted herein, and were entitled to the thanks of the country for the disposition they had shown, which he trusted would be mot by a corresponding feeling on the part of their Lordships. Without wishing to revive the discussion upon these clauses, which had been proposed by the Government in the desire to give encouragement to the investment of capital in Ireland, and the omission of which by their Lordships had amounted to a breach of the privileges of the Lower House, the Bill had come back to their Lordships with

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both these clauses omitted, the other House having waived their privileges and forborne to insist on the re-insertion of these clauses. The House of Commons had agreed to many of the Amendments suggested by their Lordships. They had made large concessions in a very liberal spirit; and, looking to the value of the Bill in the present state of Ireland, he would urge the expediency of their Lordships agreeing to the Amendments made by the other House to their Lordships' Amendments.
LORD STANLEYadmitted, that the manner in which the House of Commons dealt with this measure, which had been sent up to them with extensive Amendments, and more especially the manner in which they had foreborne insisting on their extreme privileges, which they considered to be involved in the first and second clauses, entitled their views to a respectful consideration; and on that account, however much he regretted some of the Amendments made by the House of Commons, he thought they ought to sacrifice their own opinions to a certain extent, and accept the Amendments made by the House of Commons. There was only one question of dispute likely to arise, but that was one which was looked upon by those who had most carefully considered the subject, to be of vital importance to the owners of property in Ireland. He alluded to the proceedings in the superior courts in Ireland. He regretted that the 17th, 18th, and 19th Clauses, which related to the recovery of the arrears of rate and the removal of the civil-bill decree from the assistant barristers to the superior courts, and which were part of the original Bill, but which had been expunged by their Lordships, had been reintroduced by the House of Commons. With the exception of these clauses, he believed there was no difference of opinion, and that they would be ready to adopt the Amendments of the House of Commons on all other points. But if these clauses were insisted on, he thought they ought to disagree to these Amendments.
On the Amendments relating to these clauses being read.
LORD MONTEAGLEentirely agreed with his noble friends that the manner in which the House of Commons had dealt with this Bill, required on their part the greatest possible forbearance, and a readiness to sacrifice their indi-
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vidual opinions as far as possible; and, therefore, whatever might be his regret that the other House disagreed with their Lordships on some minor points, nevertheless he admitted that their Lordships should show themselves willing to defer as far as possible to those who evinced a similar spirit. But he had felt it his duty to appeal to their Lordships against the late period of the Session at which so important a measure had been submitted to their consideration, when they were prevented, by the circumstances of the Session, and the calamities of the country, from having the assistance of most of the representative Peers of Ireland in the discussion of a Bill so deeply involving the interests of that part of the united kingdom; and he had now to ask their Lordships to adhere to the judgment they had come to in Committee, when they struck out the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th Clauses of this Bill; and in so doing he was only asking them to do what their own Committee upstairs had unanimously recommended, viz., that in future the mode of recovering the poor-rates should be by civil-bill process before the assistant barrister, and by distress warrant from the magistrate. He would not now repeat the arguments that he had formerly urged on their Lordships, but he must explain that the present state of the law gave the power of a remedy in the superior courts; but Parliament never dreamt, when it gave that power, of doing more than confining its operation to persons who were out of the jurisdiction of the inferior courts. But it had been lately discovered, for the first time, that by the process in the superior court a judgment might be obtained that would become a lien on the whole real estate of the party affected by the judgment. This was not done by direct enactment; it was merely an incident of the existing law in certain cases; but the effect of the clauses originally in this Bill, and now proposed to be reinstated in it, would be directly to extend this power to all cases whatever, and to apply it in a manner most objectionable; for it was now sought for the first time to apply the rule, not only in cases where there was an immediate lessor, who might not be reached except by the superior courts, but the power of proceeding was given in all cases, although the party might be within the jurisdiction of the inferior courts, and capable of being proceeded against in the ordinary way. Again,

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when his noble Friend introduced the power of proceeding by the superior courts of law into this Bill, he inserted a proviso that no such proceeding in the superior courts could be instituted except by the consent of the Poor Law Commissioners; but under the present Bill no such consent was necessary, and every civil-bill decree might be removed from the assistant barrister without either asking or obtaining the consent of the commissioners. In this Bill, therefore, all the checks and safeguards placed upon the boards of guardians by the existing law were done away with. And when a judgment was once obtained for arrears of poor-rate, it took priority of every other charge on the estate in question, except an obligation or debt due to the Crown. These clauses were objectionable upon every principle of justice; they were altogether unexampled by the state of the law in England; and if they were adopted he was convinced they would raise up unprecedented difficulties in the way of the collection of the poor-rates in Ireland, where, notwithstanding the unparalleled distress that had afflicted the country, the poor-rates had been levied on the whole as well as they had been levied in any country. On these grounds he should move—" To insist on one of the Amendments made by this House to the said Bill."
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, that in answer to his noble Friend, he would confine himself to the Amendments on which his noble Friend meant to insist. If he understood his noble Friend rightly, he objected to two points: first, that there should be a power of bringing any action whatever for rates in the superior courts; and, secondly, that the decrees of the assistant barrister should be enforced by the superior courts in the manner proposed by the Bill before their Lordships had made their Amendments upon it. He would confine his explanation to these two points, and he hoped to be able to induce their Lordships to agree to the Amendments proposed by the other House of Parliament. He would show that the Bill, so far from extending, limited liability. A great hardship had formerly existed, the landlord being indefinitely liable for rates in arrear when he might not have been in possession, and might not have been in receipt of any rent. Subsequently this liability had been limited to two years, and this principle was recognised by the 28th Clause of this Bill. None of the other enactments extended the
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liability of the landlord, for where the annual value was under 4l, he was primarily liable; and in cases where the amount was large, the remedy by civil-bill process was the best that could be applied, and was in reality mercy to the parties concerned. The general jurisdiction of the assistant barrister being confined to sums of 20 l., it was necessary that the commissioners should have authority to direct actions in the superior courts, where the sum to be recovered was large, and where nice legal questions were involved. In a recent case (Dr. Bonner's), where an action was brought for arrears of rates, the defendant pleaded that the rate was claimed under an Act which the Legislature had no right to pass, because it was contrary to the articles of the legislative Union. Such questions as those could not conveniently be entertained in the assistant barristers' courts; and though an appeal lay from their decisions, it was to the next assizes, and in the meantime what became of the poor? On these grounds, the propriety of giving a right of action in the superior courts could not be doubted. It had always been considered that poor-rates due formed the first claim on the land. Such was the law at present; the Masters in Chancery in Dublin had unanimously promulgated a rule requiring the receivers of rents to pay all the rates due without any rule or order to that effect. Previous to this, it had been customary to apply to the Lord Chancellor for an order in each particular case; but, by the rule above noticed, the guardians had the power of making the rates due the first claim on the land. It was proposed by this Bill to enable them to commence actions, and thus become judgment creditors; but then they would only come in with other judgment creditors. What injustice was there in this? The law was the same in England, with regard to judgment debts; and in Scotland it was enforced with greater rigour. There was no injustice in allowing actions to be brought, nor in the means given of enforcing the judgments in the absence of personal property.
LORD STANLEYsaid, he dissented from both these propositions. They were not discussing the Bill as a whole, but considering whether the particular clauses before them had the effect of mitigating or increasing the severity of the law. The partial limitation of the landlords' liability to two years was not due to the Government, but was given by a Bill introduced

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in the other House by the hon. and learned Member for Dublin. At present, the con sent of the commissioners was necessary to registering a decree of the assistant barrister in the superior courts; it was admitted that this authority had been much abused; but the present Bill rendered such permission wholly unnecessary, though it was said to be a power that ought to be exercised with great caution. The noble Lord paid a poor compliment to the assist ant barristers of Ireland, in supposing they were such egregious blockheads as to be puzzled by a plea of the nature he had described; but if this was so, it was a strong argument against giving them the additional powers contained in this Bill. Not only was full power given to the assistant barrister, but the appeal was taken away, and a decree, or a dozen decrees, might be registered immediately on their being passed. The noble Marquess opposite had himself admitted that these clauses might make one man liable for the debts of another; a stronger testimony could not be borne to their injustice. Not only was The personal property, but the land, made liable—not alone for a debt contracted by a man's predecessor, but by his predecessor's tenant, whom his predecessor had no power to eject. He did not deny that the poor-rates were a primary charge on the proceeds of the land; but to make the land itself, despite of all entails or charges, liable for arrears of rates, was a principle wholly irreconcilable to English ideas of justice, and wholly unknown to the English law. No single witness had stated this power to be necessary for collecting the rates; and its effect would be to check The improvement of land in Ireland, and to prevent the investment of fresh capital. Let the House beware of imposing any unnecessary burden on the land of Ireland, or sanctioning the principle of making one man liable for the debts of another.
EARL GREYsaid, the Bill as it stood made no change whatever in the landlord's I liability, except in his favour.
LORD STANLEY: Yes, it does.
EARL GREYsaid, the landlord was liable now for more than he would be liable for under this Bill.
LORD STANLEY: But it extends the liability to the land itself.
EARL GREYobserved that whatever changes with respect to liability this Bill introduced, were in the landlord's favour. It was a great security to the landlord that
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the arrears of rates should be limited to two years. It was of infinite importance, also, that the means of recovery should be as simple, cheap, and stringent as possible. To make those means stringent, it might be necessary to come upon the land ii there was nothing else to distrain upon.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEwas understood to contend that the cases in which application could be at present made to the superior courts, were entirely different from the cases contemplated by the clause of his noble Friend. He denied the analogy sought to be drawn between both cases, but at the same time he could not vote with his noble Friend, as the passing of the measure would thus be endangered.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he felt in rather an awkward predicament after the speech of his noble Friend who had just sat down. He felt coerced by his noble Friend's argument to vote one way, while his noble Friend was himself going to vote the other way.
The EARL of ST. GERMANSsaid, he agreed with his noble Friend on the cross bench (Lord Wharncliffe), that the Amendment was better than the clause sent up by the House of Commons; but that was not the question to be decided. He believed that there was no ground whatever to suppose that the Commons would adopt the Amendment of his noble Friend. The Commons had the question fully before them—had acted in a conciliatory spirit towards their Lordships, having waived the undoubted privileges of their House, and adopted Amendments made by their Lordships which he, for one, never thought they would have agreed to. Therefore, viewing the matter in the light of a compromise, he could not consent to the loss of the measure by voting with his noble Friend.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that with regard to the fact alluded to by his noble Friend, of the House of Commons having yielded their privileges, it was clear that their Lordships could not interfere in any questions of local taxation unless these privileges were waived, and therefore the concession to which his noble Friend alluded was a matter of absolute necessity. He should feel bound, under the circumstances, to press for a division.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, as there were many noble Lords present on the benches opposite who had not heard the commencement of the debate, it was right to repeat to them that the effect of the Amendment being carried would be

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fatal to the Bill. Many of the other clauses were considered valuable by both Houses. The House of Commons had made great concessions, and the Bill as it now stood had received the support of the Irish Members, and of Members of all parties in the House. It had come back to their Lordships with hardly any opposition; and if the Bill were now thrown out, it would be by an opposition on the part of their Lordships' House, not to any particular party in the House of Commons, but to a considerable majority of all the Members attending the proceedings of the House. Whether this were a wise course to pursue at the present time, or whether it would tend to induce the House of Commons to waive their privileges in future, was a matter for their Lordships to decide. He would only remind them, in addition, that by leaving the law as it at present stood, they would leave both the landowner and the land liable to worse consequences than any that were apprehended from the Bill.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, it was not by the House of Commons, but by the Government, that the Bill would be rejected. His noble Friend who had just sat down could not speak for the House of Commons, though he could speak for the Government, and he ought not therefore to have thrown out as a throat a probable course of proceeding on the part of the other House.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he did not use the intimation he had thrown out as a threat, but he spoke from his knowledge of the difficulty of inducing the House of Commons to alter their recent decision. He spoke on behalf of the House of Commons, and not of the Government, when he said that the Members who had been induced unwillingly and against their opinions to accede to some of the Amendments, in order that the Bill might pass into a law, would, there could be no reason to doubt, revert to their own opinions if the Bill did not pass as it now stood.
LORD BROUGHAMbegged to explain that he did not mean to impute to his noble Friend the charge of using the word "threat" invidiously.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, that great weight was to be attached to the observations of his noble Friend, speaking either on the part of the Government, or of the House of Commons; and, therefore, while he protested against the clause as it now stood, he could not reconcile it to his con-
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science to reject the Bill altogether, seeing that it contained such clauses as the limitation of the liability to two years, and the arrangement by which more than half the poor-rate can never be deducted by the tenant, and also the Amendment with regard to valuation for improvements.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that he also should regret much to see the measure altogether fail in consequence of the Amendment of his noble Friend being persevered in. He would, therefore, strongly recommend his noble Friend not to press his Motion to a division.
LORD MONTEAGLEunder those circumstances yielded; but in doing so, begged to notice how inconvenient it would be if such a practice were to be frequent. He thought their Lordships ought to do what they deemed right, and leave others to act as they pleased. He looked upon this measure as the accomplishment of a system of legislation against which they had often been warned—a system which had cost this country millions, and which had done more to injure Ireland within the last few years than the fifty years' previous legislation had benefited her. Those who had considered Mr. Labouchere's measures—the relief system and the present system of poor-laws—would consider this Act as one inoperative for good, but prominently effective for mischief. He was happy to say, that in making the proposition he had, he was justified by the support of every Irish representative Peer not connected with the Government, which had been accorded to him when he first moved the Amendment. After the statement of the noble Marquess, however, he should not feel justified in pressing for a division, and under the circumstances, and with this explanation, he would withdraw his Amendment.
On Question, resolved in the negative.
The other Amendments made by the Commons agreed to.
House adjourned till To-morrow.