Sitting of 9 July 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Audit of Railway Accounts; Petty Bag, &c. Offices Amendment; Commons Inclosure (No. 2); New Zealand Land Conveyances; Compound Householders.
2° Poor Relief (Cities and Boroughs); Boroughs Relief; Trustees Relief; Friendly Societies (No. 2); House of Commons Offices.
Reported.—Joint Stock Companies Act (1848) Amendment; Newgate Gaol (Dublin); Highway Rates; Turnpike Trusts Union; Titles of Religious Congregations (Scotland).
3° Poor Relief (Ireland); Bankruptcy (Ireland); Real and Personal Property Transfer.
PETITIONS PRESKNTED. By Mr. P. Miles, from Bristol, for Universal Suffrage.—By Mr. Bateson, from Magherafelt, for the Clergy Relief Bill, and for a Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Mr. Gladstone, from Aberdeen, against, and by Mr. Coles, from Boston, in favour

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of, the Marriages Bill.—By Mr. Cowan, from the Scottish Anti-State-Church Association, for an Alteration of the Australian Colonies (No. 2) Bill,—By Mr. Wrightson, from Northallerton, for Repeal of the Duty on Attorneys' Certificates.—By Mr. Duncan, from Dundee, for Reduction of the Public Expenditure.—By Mr. Osman Ricardo, from Worcester, for the Bankrupt Law Consolidation Bill.—From the Tower Hamlets, for the Prohibition of Interment in Towns.—By Mr. Thornely, from Middle Hutton, against the Mines and Collieries Bill.—By Mr. W. Fagan, from Cork, against the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.

MARRIAGE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The LORD ADVOCATE The LORD ADVOCATE moved the consideration of the Lords' Amendments to this Bill.
MR. FORBES MACKENZIEsaid he should object to the consideration of the Amendments.
MR. SPEAKERinformed the hon. Member that it was not competent for him to make such a Motion upon that stage of the Bill. It was competent for him to move the recommittal of the Bill; if a Motion of that kind were not made, the Amendments would be considered, and the next question would be upon the third reading of the Bill.
MR. FORBES MACKENZIEhaving declined to move the recommittal of the Bill, the Amendments were considered.
Amendments agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill he read a Third Time on Monday next."
MR. FORBES MACKENZIEthen rose for the purpose of opposing the further progress of the measure. He thought that Scotch Members, and the people of Scotland generally, had great reason to complain of the conduct of Government with respect to the management of this Bill. It had been read a second time pro formâ, with the express understanding that it should be sent to a Select Committee to be further considered. In that Committee it was decided that evidence should be heard in support of the allegation in the Bill, that the law with respect to marriages in Scotland required alteration. One or two witnesses having accordingly been examined, the learned Lord Advocate, who had charge of the Bill, said that he did not think that he was called upon to prove the allegation of the Bill, and that the rest of the evidence should be confined to the state of the law upon the subject. It had been said, over and over again, that the feeling of opposition among the people of Scotland with respect to this Bill had been greatly exaggerated. It would have been much the wiser course, in his opinion, to
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have allowed witnesses to have been examined before the Committee, in order to show what the real feeling of the people was, than to have refused to hear evidence on the subject. After the Bill had left the Committee, it had been continued on the orders of the day night after night, and had never been attempted to be brought on until after twelve o'clock. It had been the fashion for several years to treat all Scotch business in this manner; but he hoped that, in future, Scotch Members would not have a similar grievance to complain of. With respect to the Bill itself, its merits were to be considered in a twofold view—first, with respect to its effects upon England; and, secondly, with respect to its effects upon Scotland. He thought he could show satisfactorily to English Members that the Bill would not remove any of the grievances of which they at present complained; but he would, at the same time, give them the assurance that if any Bill were to be brought in which would have the effect of curing those grievances, he would give it his most hearty support. The principal grievance complained of in England was, that persons who were desirous of making runaway matches might do so by passing the Scottish border, and be there married under the law of Scotland. But how was this proposed to be dealt' with by this Bill? The remedy proposed was, that a fine of 200 l. should be imposed upon the registrar who should marry any person who had not been resident in his district for fourteen days at least. In the cases of persons so married, however, the marriage would be held valid, but the registrar would be fined. Could anything be a more inefficient remedy for the evil complained of? Any person running away with a wealthy heiress would be glad to give the registrar the amount of the fine at once in order to have the marriage completed; and there was no doubt but that the registrar himself would be perfectly willing to accept a fee which would be of far greater value than the eight or ten pounds per annum which he might receive from his office. The learned Lord opposite had spoken in a somewhat disparaging manner of the petitions which had been presented against the Bill. He (Mr. F. Mackenzie) solemnly believed that those petitions expressed the sentiments of the great bulk of the people of Scotland with respect to this measure. The Scotch people did not want this Bill; there was no mincing the matter, they did

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not want it. He was not prepared to state that the law of marriage in Scotland could be considered as perfect. There were, no doubt, a great many objections to the law as it now stood, but some of those objections would apply equally to the marriage law of every other country in the world. With respect to clandestine marriages, to which so much reference had been made, they were of very rare occurrence, for no persons in Scotland, of any credit or character, would conceive themselves properly married unless they were married by a clergyman. One of the great objections which he had to the Bill was, that it allowed persons to be married before a registrar or magistrate. He thought the proposed change would be attended with serious inconvenience, and for that reason he should feel it his duty to give the measure every possible opposition that the rules of that House allowed.
Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "Monday next," and insert the words "this day three months."
MR. ELLIOTsaid, that as reference had been made to the refusal on the part of the Committee to hear other than legal evidence upon the state of the law of marriage in Scotland, he would state that the grounds upon which he considered such evidence ought to have been rejected were, that the Committee had been appointed expressly to consider the state of the law with respect to marriages in Scotland, and that being the case, he thought that a quantity of contradictory evidence with respect to the feelings and opinions of the people of Scotland, would not have served in the least the object of the Committee, and would, even if it had been received, have been of no sort of value to the House, when it came to consider the state of the law with respect to the subject with which it had to deal. It was under that conviction that he had moved in the Select Committee that the remaining evidence should be confined to persons of the legal profession. With respect to the law of marriage as it now existed in Scotland, he believed with Lord Brougham that it would be a disgrace to any semi-barbarous nation. In answer to a statement made by the hon. Member for Peebleshire, that irregular marriages were of very rare occurrence in Scotland, he would only state that not long since it was stated in the Scotsman newspaper that in the parish of Mornington alone there had been in one year upwards of 2,000 marriages of this description.
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The law as it at present stood was most objectionable, and he saw no reason why it should not be altered and placed upon the same footing as in this country, securing to the progeny of marriages the succession to the rights of property, and enabling people to know with certainty whether any persons were really married or not.
SIR G. GLERKsaid, that although not a Scotch Member himself, still possessing as he did an intimate knowledge of the opinions of the people of Scotland on the subject, he felt desirous of stating his reasons why he objected to the further progress of this measure. He contended that in order to have arrived at an accurate conclusion with respect to the state of the law as regarded marriages in Scotland, it was necessary for the Committee not only to have considered the existing state of the law, but also to have ascertained, from the evidence of persons connected with the subject, the feelings and opinions of the people of Scotland with respect to the evils, if any, arising out of the present state of things, and the remedies which might be most effectual for their removal. He believed that by the exclusion of evidence as to the feelings and opinions of the people of Scotland, they had in reality shut out what would have been the most valuable part of their inquiry. It had been said with regard to the present defective state of the marriage law in Scotland, that the time of the House of Lords was almost exclusively occupied by hearing appeals arising out of questions connected with the law of marriage in that country. So far from that being the case, he found by a return lately presented to Parliament, that there had been only four cases before them for the last five years. The law of marriage in Scotland had been denounced as one fit only for a semi-barbarous country. In answer to that statement, he begged to state that the law now existing in Scotland was almost precisely the same as it existed in England previous to the passing of Lord Hardwicke's Act in the reign of George II., which was then considered as an unnecessary innovation of the law as it then existed. By the present law of Scotland, there was only one regular mode of contracting marriages, and any marriage contracted without the intervention of a clergyman, after the proclamation of banns as required by law, subjected the parties who entered into it to a fine, if the Lord Advocate in his discretion should sue for it;

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but certainly subjecting them to ecclesiastical censure. But although there was only one regular mode of solemnising marriage, still the law of Scotland, looking upon marriage as a civil contract, gave validity to contracts entered into between two persons, and considered their declarations, though not made in the presence of a clergyman, to be binding upon the parties, neither of them having the power of resiling from the contract. There was no doubt that a state of the law which might be highly objectionable to the public feeling of one country, might be perfectly well adapted to the public feeling of another country. He was quite aware that in Scotland rash marriages had been made; but the reason of that was, that young men could not obtain possession of females by any other means. He would appeal to any hon. Member to bear him out in the truth of his assertion, that in England cases of seduction and breaches of promise were far more numerous than they were in Scotland. On the passing of Lord Hardwicke's Act it was prophesied that such would be its effects, and that the weakness of love would give way to the efforts of a bold and heartless seducer, notwithstanding the circumstance of any promise of marriage made by him not being binding, unless the marriage was actually solemnised in the presence of a clergyman. Such cases do not, and cannot, however, exist in Scotland. What was the effect of the law as it at present stood, in preventing cases of seduction and breaches of promise of marriage? It was this: no person could make use of a promise of marriage as an instrument for the seduction of any female; because, if he did so, the law of Scotland said, by that promise he must be bound. If they could establish the existence of cases of young men being entrapped into marriage by persons below them in station, or rank, or any other abuse of the law, no doubt they would then have made out a case for the alteration of the law as it now existed. They could not, however, lay their hands upon a single case of that kind. With respect to the parish of Mornington, which had been referred to by the hon. Member for Roxburghshire, that was a parish close upon the border of the two countries, and the great majority of those who were married there were persons who, for some reason or other, wished to cross the border in order to take advantage of the benefit of the Scottish
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law. He was perfectly ready, and he believed Scotch Members also were equally prepared, to give his assent to any measure which should prevent the evasion of the English law, or which should prevent parties taking any advantage of the difference which existed between the laws of the two countries. In Scotland every minister was entitled to marry the members of his own congregation. There was no grievance or hardship upon the conscience of any man in Scotland. [Mr. Fox MAULE: The banns must be published in the parish church.] He had never heard that that was any cause of complaint to the people of Scotland that three weeks' notice must be given in the parish church of their intention to marry. All statutory notices were required by law to be given in parish churches. He was not aware that the people of Scotland had ever thought that that was a grievance. He supposed, however, that it was now considered as much by the members of the Free Church, if he might judge of their feelings by the interest which the right hon. Member opposite appeared to take in the question. [Mr. Fox MAULE: It is a grievance.] He was most happy to hear that that numerous and respectable body had no more serious grievance of which to complain. This Bill, however, went much further than the removal of that grievance, inasmuch as it proposed to legalise marriages not solemnised by clergymen, and to which the members of the Church entertained the most serious objections. At present, any persons who were married, by merely expressing themselves as being man and wife, would be subject to ecclesiastical censure. They now proposed to sweep away all irregular marriages in Scotland, and to have, as in England, regular marriages only. In that case no persons would be subject to ecclesiastical censure; and the clergy of Scotland generally felt that such a step would be highly injurious to the moral feelings of the people of the country; and that objection had been set forth in the strongest manner in the petitions which had been presented against the Bill. Looking at the very few instances of irregular marriages that occurred—looking also to the protection afforded by the existing law to females against seduction under fraudulent promises of marriage, made by persons who never meant to carry those promises into effect—he thought that the people of Scotland had a perfect right to ask the House to allow the law of marriage to re-

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main as it then stood. Any cases of grievance or abuse which had been brought forward were confined solely to the English border; and he believed there was no person in Scotland who would not most cordially give his assent to the abolition of Gretna-green, or "border" marriages, as they were called in Scotland. The settlement of the great question of legitimacy in accordance with the laws of both countries would be a worthy object for the attention of any statesman; but the present Bill, he thought, was both uncalled for and unnecessary. The learned Lord Advocate had also brought in a Bill for the registration of births, deaths, and marriages; and it was only with a view of making that measure work more effectually that he had proposed to introduce these vital and important changes in the law of Scotland, injurious to the morals of the people of Scotland, and in direct opposition to their wishes. No doubt, a perfect system of registration would be a very good thing, but it was just possible that they might pay too great a price for it. This Marriage Bill would be a perfect dead letter, a mere piece of waste paper, unless it formed part and parcel of the Registration Bill. Believing, as he did, that the general feeling of the people of Scotland was against the measure, he felt bound to give his support to the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Peebleshire, and he should be greatly disappointed if upon the division he did not find a majority of the Scotch Members voting with him against the third reading of the Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATEbegged to remind the House that the present measures were not new to the House. Measures substantially the same as these had been brought in by him in 1847. They were then read a second time, and a full statement of their nature was made by him in withdrawing them for that Session. In 1848 they were introduced into the House of Lords, where they underwent the fullest discussion, having been referred to the consideration of a Select Committee, consisting mainly of noble Lords connected with Scotland. Several amendments were made by the Committee on those Bills, and in that state they passed the House of Lords with scarcely a dissentient voice. They were then brought down to the House of Commons, and read a second time; but owing to the late period of the Session, and a desire upon the part of Her Majesty's Government that the people of Scotland
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should have an opportunity of considering them, the Bills were a second time withdrawn. In the present Session the Bills had been again introduced into the House of Lords; the Registration Bill had passed that House unanimously; the Marriage Bill with one dissentient only—the Earl of Aberdeen. In these circumstances they came down to the House of Commons. At the desire of many Scotch Members, the Bills were not pressed forward previous to the 30th of April; and since that time the pressure of public business had prevented their being taken into consideration until the present time. Under those circumstances, he thought it was not unreasonable in the Government to wish to have them proceeded with this Session. The first great object of the present Bill was to introduce a certainty, and to remove the great sources of uncertainty which at present existed with respect to the condition of marriage in Scotland, and to leave it no longer a matter of doubt or difficulty, to be ascertained only by the sifting and investigation of most unsatisfactory evidence, whether any parties had or had not contracted the status of marriage. The second object was one to which he attached at least as much importance, namely, to ensure, as far as possible, publicity to the contraction of marriage. It was in order to ensure this publicity, and to put an end to a state of the law which he could not help considering as disgraceful to any civilised community—a state of law which not only admitted, but encouraged, as much as law could encourage, the contraction of marriage, and the concealment of the fact. That was one of the great objects of this Bill. He knew of no greater evil in society than clandestine marriages; and he had never heard an opinion expressed by any lawyer, writer, judge, or person of authority, in any station whatever, which did not condemn most strongly the system of clandestine marriages, and which did not reprobate in the strongest manner a state of law which encouraged people to contract marriages, and hold themselves out to society as single or unmarried persons. The third object of the Bill was one which was, perhaps, less easy of attainment, but still, to a certain extent, attainable, namely, to provide for a reasonable intimation of the parties' intention to marry, and in order to prevent incautious, over-hasty, and fraudulent marriages, by giving the friends of the parties some intimation of their intention to contract mar-

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riage. Requiring this intimation of the parties' intention to marry, would, he was certain, more than anything else, prevent that which every one admitted to be a great grievance—he meant what were commonly called "Gretna-green" marriages. He was astonished to hear the right hon. Baronet opposite state that it was the first time he had heard it considered as a grievance that persons could not marry without the proclamation of banns in the parish church, by the payment of a large fee to the precentor, or other officer of the church. That had always been considered a very great grievance by the Dissenting body throughout Scotland, so far as he understood. The members of the Episcopal communion were, however, saved from that grievance, because they were provided with an Act of Parliament which provided that the proclamation of banns made in their own chapel was sufficient to authorise a clergyman to solemnise the marriage. The grievance in this case was felt to be still greater by the Dissenters, because the friends of the parties who did not attend the parish church, had no opportunity of deriving from the proclamation of the banns any of the benefits of publicity. The present law of marriage in Scotland was founded on the principle of requiring the consent of the parties, and did not even require intercourse between the parties to complete the union. But with respect to the evidence to be given of such consent, and consequent completion of the contract, the law was very loose and unsatisfactory. It might be by writing—it might be by wading through voluminous correspondence—that such evidence of consent was to be obtained. Parties might live together, and be supposed married by some, and not be supposed married by others, and yet what was called the reputation of being married was sometimes the only evidence to be procured or relied on. The declarations of persons in the presence of other parties were also sometimes held as evidence; but all these matters led to great uncertainty, and often to prolonged litigation, in the course of which many and various questions might arise which it was most difficult to solve. Was it expedient that such a state of things as that should be suffered to exist? Take another case: parties lived in an equivocal position; it was almost generally supposed that they lived as mistress and protector; they were not visited; it was supposed by some that they were married, and by others not; then a question arose—and this was a
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real case—whether there was such reputation joined with cohabitation as to make a valid marriage. The court held, by a decision of eight of the Judges against seven, that there was a marriage. The case affects a large estate, and the decision held the issue of the cohabitation to be entitled to the property. The case came by appeal to the House of Lords, and was argued before Lord Eldon. He had great difficulty about it, said he could not understand such evidence as had been given in the case, and reversed the decision of the court below. The use he (the Lord Advocate) made of this was, to show that so long as the law of Scotland was not reduced to evidence of a clear and definite nature, there must always be disputes and great difficulties. Then, with respect to the exact words to be used, who could say what those should be? A case arose some years ago of this description, and which involved property to the amount of many thousands a year: a gentleman lived for some years in cohabitation with a female, who bore several children to him. One day he called his servants into the room where he was with the female and with his children and said to them, "I acknowledge this woman to be my wife," and "I acknowledge these children to be my children." He then left the room, gave some orders to his servants, went out, and in half an hour shot himself. It was said he was mad. An inquiry took place, and he was found to have been sane. Another question, however, much more difficult, then arose, which was—Did he intend, by his statements, to make the woman his widow, and those children his heirs? Now. these were questions that would constantly arise where parties wished to commit frauds upon insurance offices, for instance, so long as the law remained in its present state; and parties would delay acknowledging their marriage till the last moment. Another way of making a marriage in Scotland was by a promise of marriage, and intercourse afterwards had upon the faith of that promise. It was not very clear by the law of Scotland how that promise was to be proved. Some cases went the length of bringing in the courtship; and if it were found there had been an honourable courtship, the court would hold that there had been a promise. But surely this could not be considered the best law for Scotland. It was also a state of law which was attended with the greatest difficulty and danger—that held that a promise of marriage made by one and accepted by

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the other might be proved, not only by direct writing, but by the spelling and inference to be drawn from a long course of correspondence. There was, however, another anomalous case: there had been cohabitation for a length of time; it ceased; then came a promise of marriage, or a letter, which would be interpreted to imply such a promise; the parties lived together again, and the law was, that during the latter period they were to be considered as having been married, although during the former period they had lived together illegally; and it was said that the object of this was to protect the female, and not to leave her to a dependence upon the honour of a man. But in how many eases, as it was well known to all lawyers, from the statement of the woman, bad this promise been made by the man where he had got hold of the paper afterwards, destroyed it, and left the woman a sacrifice to that state of law! In how many instances had not the confiding woman received the most direct and positive promise from the man before she had surrendered herself to him; and deserting her afterwards, what remedy had she but to appeal to the oath of her seducer?—and it was more than he the Lord Advocate could believe that a man who had so conducted himself to a female, when put upon his oath afterwards, would confess his promise. He had no hesitation in stating, as the result of a long professional experience, which had brought many of these cases under his consideration, that this law, which the right hon. Baronet opposite appealed to as a proper law for Scotland, had led to more eases of seduction than any other law that had ever been enacted. Upon this state of the law he would ask the House to consider for a moment how it was that the Bill he had introduced was to operate? He held all marriages to be good which should be celebrated by a clergyman. Where a clergyman was resorted to in Scotland, he should hold that act to be good, with this exception, that to prevent imprudent or hasty marriages, if there should be no proclamation of banns, then a certificate of the intention to marry, which should be published, should be obtained; and the publicity of that registration would be greater than that of the proclamation of banns. With respect to irregular marriages—marriages which were to be considered to have been made by promise and subsequent intercourse, those to be made out by cohabitation and reputation, and those to be considered to have
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been made by private writings interchanged between the parties, and probably kept secret for a long series of years, he should admit no evidence of any marriage not celebrated by a clergyman, except those of the simple registration of the intention of the parties to marry made by the registrar, and signed by the parties themselves. This would not only prevent difficulty or dispute as to the marriage afterwards, but it would be certain to insure publicity. When parties went before a clergyman to get married, accompanied by their friends and witnesses, the presumption must be that there could be in such a case no intention to conceal the union, therefore there was not much necessity for guarding against evil in those instances; still they had been well provided for, because the clergyman was directed, under this Bill, to communicate the marriage to the registrar, and the registrar was authorised to proceed against the parties for penalties, if the registration was not effected by them within a certain time after the marriage, so that publicity as much as possible should be insured. Then the third point to be attained by the Bill, was to require that the parties proposing to marry, if they did not have banns proclaimed, should intimate their intention of marrying to the registrar, by which all the publicity possible should be given to that intention, and all friends of the parties in that way receive the speediest information of the event. No clergyman should be at liberty to celebrate a marriage except banns had been proclaimed; and no registrar should be at liberty to give a certificate of registration until after the names had been registered by him for such a length of time as would admit of publicity of the intention to marry. This would have the effect of, at all events, preventing fraudulent marriages. It bad been said by the hon. Member for Peebleshire that the penalty proposed was not sufficient to deter from violating the Act; but the House ought to recollect that it was dealing with public officers. There was a penalty of 200 l., and also a penalty of imprisonment, for improperly celebrating a marriage; and no doubt loss of office would follow the infliction of those penalties. What more could be asked for? It would be quite impossible to provide against every imaginable case of either fraud or violation of duty. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Argyllshire would remember a case that came before the

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court in Scotland, involving a promise of marriage. The woman had got hold of a piece of paper on which the man had written his name, and above that signature she had written in her handwriting his promise to marry her. In the first instance that was held to be a valid promise, but afterwards that decision was reversed. That, however, showed the difficulties that existed under such a state of law as that which existed in Scotland. With respect to consequences, he referred the House to the case of a gentleman in Scotland possessed of extensive landed property there, who had married a lady from England, connected with one of the most noble families in the country; and after the union had subsisted a year or two, a claim was brought against him by a woman in Scotland of a previous marriage, which claim depended upon writings, in which she affirmed a promise of marriage was given, and there had been subsequent cohabitation. These were held to be proved, and the English marriage was declared void. Fortunately there was no issue by the second marriage, for if there had been, that issue would have been deprived of the very large property which legitimate issue under that marriage would have been entitled to. The lady, who had once thought herself honourably married, found herself to be deceived, and she retired to live with her friends again, as a lady who had not been married. Was that a state of law to be approved of, or was it not sufficient of itself to induce the House to interfere to put an end to clandestine marriages? It was only three or four weeks since he had been retained as counsel in a case of this character. The libel stated that there was a marriage in 1818 upon a promise by writing between the parties, and which had been secret. The plaintiff was issue of that marriage, and born about 1827. His father afterwards married an English lady; his mother took no steps against that marriage, from a wish not to bring the man into troubles and difficulties. The plaintiff, however, now sought to have that subsequent marriage set aside, the setting aside of which will have the effect of taking away a very large estate from other persons as well as a baronetcy, which had been held for many years. And such were some of the disastrous consequences of these clandestine marriages. With regard to the nature of this measure itself, the objections to it were principally from the Church of Scotland; and more incongruous
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objections than they were could not well be thought of. The Church said you are making marriage too easy, because you are enabling persons to marry by registration. But surely marriage by registration was not so irregular as all the other modes of marriage that prevailed in Scotland. Well, but then in the next breath, the Church said, you are making marriage too difficult, because you are preventing people marrying by promise and subsequent intercourse. His answer to that was, that he was only making marriage reasonably proper. Then another objection was, that by this Bill the House would be countenancing the law of irregular marriages, because there was now no statute law by which marriages in Scotland were regulated; but he would ask, were they, because there was no statute law, to disregard the common law of the country; and when they found that the common law of Scotland recognised all irregular marriages, could it be said that the House was now making legal irregular marriages, when the object of the present Bill was only to put them down? At present, the only regular marriage in Scotland was after the publication of banns; the only case of penalty was for the celebration of it without such publication; the clergyman might be left out altogether, and then no penalty would be incurred. Upon the whole, there could not be a more absurd state of law. Looking at the objections put forward by the Church of Scotland against this Bill, there were no grounds for those objections at all. He admitted the clergymen of Scotland were generally against this measure; but surely the House would think that by this time, the third year of the discussion of this Bill, those rev. gentlemen ought to have come forward with some substantial grounds for their opposition. If they meant to say that they came here to assert that they had the power or right to supersede the interference of the Legislature, they would put forward a right in them much greater than the Church of Rome asserted; because they took their right to interfere in reference to the rules of marriage, on the ground that it was a sacrament, which carried with it a degree of plausibility, and they required no witness to their marriage, or proof of the marriage beyond that of the parish priest who performed the ceremony. With respect to the petitions that had been sent to the House on this subject, he found that altogether there were 377 against both Bills; and of those, 225 had

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been received from the Established Church. With regard to those 225, however, he must say that he did not think they had been obtained in the most regular manner. In the first place, they had a petition from the General Assembly of Scotland; but not content with that, there was a petition from the commissioners, who were precisely the same body as the General Assembly. Then, again, there was a petition from the synod of Aberdeen; then from all the presbyteries of Aberdeen; then from the individual session clerks and the particular clergy of Aberdeen. Such was the mode in which these petitions had been multiplied. With respect to a great body of the Dissenters in Scotland, there had not been one petition against the Marriage Bill. There were some forty-eight or forty-nine petitions from the Free Kirk; but they were not against the Marriage Bill. The principal of their petitions were against one of the clauses of the Registration Bill, asserting that the author of the Bill did wrong in saying that no one should ever be a registrar except the session clerk. If he were to give up that principle, which he could not do in justice to the session clerks, he believed there was not one of the dissenting body, whether of the clergy or the laity, but would support the measures under discussion. There were about 1,000 parishes in Scotland: only 130 of them had petitioned against the Bill. Of the Free Kirk congregations, 739 in number, only eleven had petitioned against the Bill. Of the United Presbyterian synod, 493 congregations in all, only twelve had petitioned against the Bill; and those were on the partial grounds to which he had referred. From the remaining dissenting congregations, 333 in number, and including 110 Episcopal churches, not one petition against the measure had been received. He could understand, indeed, the force of the petitions against Sunday travelling, 712 in number, signed by 138,567 persons; but the petitions against these Bills were not signed by 7,000 individuals, whilst those against the Marriage Bill had not much above 1,500 names appended to them. Now, was he, or was he not entitled to say, what he did say advisedly, that he could not consider those petitions as representing the opinions of the people of Scotland? He knew that there were not petitions in favour of this Bill from many quarters. There might have been more, had they been looked for; but he did not expect that measures of
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this nature, involving such reforms in the law as this was calculated to produce, would be the subjects of canvassed petitions. He asked the House, then, to pass this measure upon three grounds: first, to give certainty to the constitution of the marriage contract; secondly, to ensure publicity to that contract, thus preventing the monstrous evil of clandestine marriages; and, thirdly, he recommended this measure because of the provision it made for a public notice of the intention to marry, and of the impediment which it presented in the way of hasty and fraudulent marriages.
MR. M'NEILL* said, that he intended to give his vote in favour of the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Peebleshire, and he hoped the House would extend to him its indulgence, while he stated the reasons that led him to resist the farther progress of the present measure. The hon. Member for Roxburghshire, while bearing valuable testimony to the existence of a strong feeling in Scotland against this Bill, was pleased to ascribe that feeling to an extreme repugnance to all interference with their laws or usages, which, he says, is a characteristic of the Scottish nation. He (Mr. M'Neill) must, however, for himself, take the liberty of denying that he was under such influence. He was not one of those, if there were any such, who opposed an obstinate resistance to all interference with the laws and usages of Scotland. He believed that the laws of every country required occasional amendments. Society is progressive; and with the changes which take place in the state of society—arising from various causes, political and social—the laws of the country must, to a certain extent, keep pace and undergo occasional amendment. When he had the honour to occupy an official position, which made it more peculiarly his duty to attend to the wants and requirements of Scotland in this respect, he had not abstained from introducing such measures for the amendment of the law as he believed to be necessary for the removal or correction of ascertained or acknowledged evils or defects; and since that duty had devolved on his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate, he was sure he would do him the justice to admit that he (Mr. M'Neill) had, as a Member of this House, readily given his humble aid towards perfecting and carrying through measures proposed by his right
* From a printed pamphlet.

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hon. Friend. But while such were the views he entertained, and upon which he had acted, and was still prepared to act, he must at the same time he permitted to say that great caution ought to he observed in interfering with a law which was satisfactory to the people, especially a law touching so nearly the feelings and the social interests and relations of all grades of society as the law relating to the constitution of marriage. He knew few qualities of a law more valuable—more highly to be prized—than that of giving satisfaction to an enlightened and intelligent people, for whose benefit it was intended, and among whom it had been long in operation. That was a quality too valuable to be bartered, or even put in hazard, for any mere theoretical improvement. The excitement of dissatisfaction—the doing of violence to the feelings of the people in regard to such a matter as the constitution of marriage—was too high a price to be paid for the removal of theoretical defects. Where there was an intelligent and contented people, with a well-known and long-established law which they did not desire to alter, he demanded to have some cogent reason assigned for altering or abrogating that law before he would agree to do so. Some strong ease must be made out of existing evil, or of great practical inconvenience. At the same time, it must not be supposed that he was altogether averse to legislation in regard to the law of marriage. On the contrary, he was of opinion that there were matters connected with the operation of the law of marriage to which legislation might be applied with advantage to the inhabitants of both ends of the island, and without doing violence to the feelings of either, or depriving either of the enjoyment of their own laws. Some of these had been alluded to by his right hon. Friend the Member for Dover; and he (Mr. M'Neill) would now merely mention without dwelling upon them. In the first place, he would mention the matter of border marriages. He believed that the extent to which the natives of England resorted to Scotland for the mere purpose of evading the marriage law of England, had been exaggerated; but he had no doubt that the practice prevailed to a very considerable extent among the natives of England living near the borders, and especially those in the humbler classes of life. On this point he was disposed to differ from a noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham), who, in the course of his evidence
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before the Committee, had expressed an opinion that only the rich availed themselves, or could avail themselves, of that mode of evading the law of England. He (Mr. M'Neill) believed that there were comparatively few instances of these border marriages among parties in the higher ranks of life, and that such cases would be still more rare and more easily prevented, if it was really desirable and desired to prevent them, now that the transit of thought by the electric telegraph was fleeter even than the flight of love when the steam was up. But if it was true, as he believed it to be, that among the humbler classes living near the border, the practice of resorting to Scotland for a few hours for the mere purpose of evading the provisions of the marriage law of England prevailed to a great extent, and if that practice was productive of evil among those classes, by encouraging immorality or great improvidence, and by disturbing the peace of families living under the protection and security, as they supposed, of the law of England, he should not object to a legislative remedy being applied; and he thought it would not be difficult to apply such a remedy without exciting much dissatisfaction or opposition. Indeed, in many of the petitions which had been presented against this Bill, the petitioners expressed views similar to those which he had now indicated. Then, again, in regard to the dissolution of marriage, there were points which, though not giving rise to frequent questions, still were in an unsatisfactory state, and were fit matter for adjustment by legislation. By the law of Scotland, the courts of law had power to dissolve marriage for certain causes. The courts of England had no such power; and, consequently, parties had in each case to resort to the Legislature for that redress to which confessedly they were entitled on proof of the wrong. He would not now say which was the better system, although he had a very clear opinion on that point. Neither did he advocate any general alteration of the law as it existed in either end of the island; but the point he wished to direct attention to was this—that the courts of law in England, not having in themselves the power to dissolve marriages, did not recognise the validity or effect of a judgment of the Scotch court dissolving a marriage which had been contracted in England between English parties who had afterwards gone to Scotland; and the case had occurred of a person

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being convicted in England of bigamy, for having contracted a second marriage there after his first marriage had been dissolved by sentence of the Scotch court. He should like to see that matter adjusted by legislation. Again, it was well known that the law of Scotland recognised the rule of legitimation by subsequent marriage; and the noble and learned Lord who had introduced the present Bill, had stated in his evidence that he highly approved of not touching that part of the law of Scotland. But he (Mr. M'Neill) thought that some concession was due from the law of England to the rights of legitimacy; and that parties who were legitimate in one part of the kingdom should have in all parts of the kingdom the rights of succession to heritable estate, and all other rights that belong to legitimacy. On none of these points connected with the law of marriage was he averse to legislation. On the contrary, he thought that they afforded a field for useful legislation which might have been occupied by his learned Friend with advantage to the inhabitants of both ends of the island, without doing violence to the feelings of any one, and without imposing additional burdens of any kind. But the measure now before the House was of a very different character. It went to an entire alteration of the law as to the constitution of marriage, and as to the evidence by which that relation of parties could be proved. And why was this change proposed in the law affecting the most important relation of life—the most important interests, not only of the parties who had contracted that relation, but of the children who were the fruits of their union? It was introduced as part of a system of more perfect registration of births and marriages, more fully developed in another Bill introduced at the same time and still depending. The whole of this most important change in the law, affecting the constitution of marriage and the evidence of marriage, appeared to have had its origin—to hare been suggested and proposed as a mode of facilitating and rendering more perfect the operations of the statist. He requested hon. Gentlemen to observe particularly the connexion between these twin Bills. [The hon. and learned Member read the first clause of the Marriage Bill.] From that clause it would be seen that henceforward there were to be only two recognised modes of constituting marriage; one of which was to be by proceeding under the provisions
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of the Registration Bill of this Session. That Bill was thus as it were recognised and adopted into the Marriage Bill; consequently, no person who voted for the Marriage Bill could, with consistency, refuse to pass the Registration Bill. All those who were opposed to the Registration Bill of the present Session—who thought it too expensive, too complex, or too stringent—who thought that either it should not be passed at all in its present form, or that, at all events, it should not be passed during the present Session, must join with him in resisting the further progress of the Marriage Bill, because the first clause of the Marriage Bill was tantamount to a pledge to pass the Registration Bill in the present Session. He would now proceed to consider the reasons which had been assigned for pressing on this measure. He did not mean to impugn the general proposition laid down by his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate as to what constitutes marriage according to the law of Scotland. Consent of parties, deliberately interchanged by words of present acceptance of each other as husband and wife, intending so to live, does undoubtedly constitute marriage by the law of Scotland. That principle is not peculiar to Scotland: it has been recognised as the foundation of the law of marriage throughout the whole Christian world. They had been told to-day that the law of Scotland in regard to the constitution of marriage was a disgrace to any civilised country; and the hon Member for Roxburghshire had said that it was fit only for a semi-barbarous people, at the same time that he told us that the people of Scotland had a very strong feeling in its favour. Did the hon. Gentleman moan to stamp as semi-barbarous all those who adopted or retained the same state of law? The Chief Judge of the Consistorial Court of England (Dr. Lushington), justly lauded for his learning, and his acquaintance with the marriage law of England, had stated in evidence—
"I really hardly know any difference between the law of Scotland, as to the constitution of marriage, and the law of England, anterior to Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act. I apprehend them to be as nearly as possible the same thing."
Were the people of England a semi-barbarous people up to that time? Were the distinguished statesmen who so strenuously resisted that innovation on the law of England, only half civilised? Were their views and opinions disgraceful to a civilised country? When he called to recollection the

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opposition to Lord Hardwicke's Bill, and still more when he remembered who the constitutional statesmen were, who in the next generation described that Act of Lord Hardwicke's—that departure from the former law of England—as a "disgrace to the country and to the Statute-book,"—he did not attach much importance to the mere use, on the present occasion, of expressions so easily put in requisition by those who might be disposed to do so on either or both sides of such a question. It might, however, be worthy of notice, that the alteration made by Lord Hardwicke on the law of England, and which was intended to remove a certain amount of evil then acknowledged to exist in England, had given rise to other evils not less serious, and which had called for further legislation—which further legislation had produced a state of matters altogether unworkable, till again set agoing by a recent Act, which it was hoped would be more successful. No great encouragement to change, was therefore held out by the example and experience of England, since its departure, in the time of Lord Hardwicke, from what we are told was then as nearly as possible the law common to both countries in regard to the constitution of marriage. Nor does the evil exist to any considerable extent in Scotland which did exist in England, and was made the ground for altering the law there. The law of Scotland being now as heretofore, that consent given in the way he had described makes marriage—that it is, in the language of Archbishop Cranmer, "beyond all doubt ipsum matrimonium," the present Bill says, that henceforth it shall not make marriage, whatever may have followed upon it, unless the consent is given in presence of a clergyman, or by signing the register. It does not say, that all marriages must be celebrated in presence of a clergyman; but, professing to recognise the principle, that consent, though not given in presence of a clergyman, may constitute marriage, it says, that the consent shall be of none avail, whatever may have followed upon it, unless it was given in the particular form of signing the register, and can be there pointed out. No matter how deliberately the consent may have been interchanged, and how completely susceptible of proof. No matter although the parties may have lived all their lives as man and wife—may have so published themselves to the world every day, by acts a thousand times more
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public than any entry in a register can possibly be—by a course of life more clearly indicating deliberate and continued purpose than a single entry in a register can do. All that shall not avail them or their families; they are to be denied the rights and privileges of marriage and legitimacy, unless they can point to their names in the journal kept by the registrar. To borrow the language of a high authority relied upon in support of the Bill—
"It may be according to the law of Scotland that it is a complete marriage, and so it may be by the law of God; but if the woman is put to prove that marriage after the birth of children, of that she is or may be without any proof."
That which, by the law of Scotland and by the law of God, is a marriage, the people of Scotland wish to be allowed to prove by all the evidence of which it is susceptible. They do not wish that parties should be allowed to escape from such solemn obligations, undertaken towards each other—to their offspring and to society. They are unwilling that any man should be enabled, with the confidence of perfect impunity, to impose on an unsuspecting community, by wearing a mask of pretended matrimony, behind which is concealed the reality of vice. He did not wonder that the people of Scotland had no liking to this measure. There may occasionally be cases in which the proof of marriage is attended with difficulty; and so there may be in regard to any matter of fact whatever. So there may be in regard to the fact of marriage under the proposed Bill, even where the marriage has been celebrated in the most solemn manner in presence of a clergyman. Occasional difficulty of proof is not a satisfactory or adequate reason for so great a change in the law. Certainty is desirable in all transactions, and is especially desirable in regard to marriage; and the means of preserving evidence of such contracts is also desirable; but although these objects are desirable, they should not be prized so highly, or pursued so exclusively, as to endanger other advantages not less valuable. At present there was no uncertainty in this sense, that parties could not get effectually married if they chose, and he was not averse to affording additional and improved facilities for preserving evidence by registration. The extent of the evil said to arise from the present uncertainty and difficulty of proof, had been much exaggerated. It had been made the subject of evidence

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before the Committee by examining two noble and learned Lords, the one an ex-Chancellor of England, the other an ex-Chancellor of Ireland, both of whom have for several years had great judicial experience in the court of last resort. One of these noble and learned Lords, in particular, had given very important evidence on the subject. He was also the author of the present Bill, having introduced it in the other House of Parliament, and therefore it was of consequence that the House should see what had been said by him when examined as a witness in support of his own Bill. He (Mr. M'Neill) entertained towards that noble and learned Lord no feeling but that of respect for his high position, and, if possible, still greater respect for the talents and industry by which that position had been attained; but he could not agree to adopt the conclusions of that noble Lord in regard to the Bill, without examining the grounds upon which those conclusions rested. From the speech of his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate, it might be supposed that the amount of litigation arising out of the state of the marriage law of Scotland was enormous; that the House of Lords itself was groaning under the load of difficult and doubtful cases that were brought before it by appeal, and which would all be prevented by the present Bill. The evidence of the noble Lord who had introduced the Bill, was certainly calculated to convey the impression, that during his judicial experience in the House of Lords, he had been exposed to great difficulty and embarrassment in wading through cases of that description, constantly brought before the House by appeal from the Scotch court; and that, as might have been expected, where the cases were so numerous, and so difficult and doubtful in evidence, the disagreeable duty of differing from the court below, and reversing its judgments, had been very frequently imposed upon the House of Lords. But from a return of all the cases of declarator of marriage or legitimacy that had occurred during the last seventeen or eighteen years, which had been moved for by the Earl of Aberdeen, and was alluded to by the noble and learned Lord in his evidence, and since then communicated to this House, it appeared, that during the whole period embraced in that return, there had been in the House of Lords only six cases and only one reversal. And of these six cases, three, including the reversal, had nothing to do with the subjectmatter
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of the present Bill. They were not cases in which there was any doubt or question as to the validity of any marriages. They were cases as to whether the marriage in the circumstances had the effect of legitimating the children previously born, which was a subject not touched by the present Bill; and the noble and learned Lord himself had said, that he most highly approved of the Bill expressly leaving the law of legitimation by subsequent marriage untouched. It farther appeared, that of the remaining three cases, two had been decided before the noble and learned Lord had sat in the Upper House, and only one since that time. But the noble and learned Lord explained very satisfactorily that he referred also to cases which did not appear in that return; and he explained why it was that they did not so appear. He explained that it is not merely in matrimonial suits that the question of marriage or legitimacy arises—that it arises also in suits as to property—the right to the property depending on the legitimacy of one of the parties—so that the question of marriage came to be tried and decided incidentally in the question of property. And the noble Lord gave an instance of a case of that description from Glasgow which had occurred last Session, and in which the judgment of the court below, on the point of legitimacy, had been reversed in the House of Lords. That explanation was quite intelligible, and so far might be considered satisfactory. But as the noble Lord's recollection did not enable him to give a reference to the other cases of that class which had occurred, and as he (Mr. M'Neill) thought it better not to rely on generalities when precise information was within reach, he had moved for a list of all cases that had been decided in the House of Lords on appeal from Scotland in reference to rights of property, in which the legitimacy of any party had been raised as a point for decision since the 1st January, 1839, embracing more than the period during which the House of Lords has had the benefit of the noble and learned Lord's judicial assistance in deciding such cases. He now held in his hands a copy of that return. The first two cases embraced in it were questions as to legitimation by subsequent marriage, and therefore not within the scope of this Bill, or of the evidence of the noble and learned Lord. The third case in the return was a proper case of marriage and legitimacy. It was one of the three cases of that description which had

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appeared in Lord Aberdeen's return, and it was the only one of them which had been decided during the time of the noble and learned Lord. In that case the judgment of the court below was affirmed. This exhausted the proper cases of marriage and legitimacy. One case in ten years. But then we come to that other class of cases to which the noble and learned Lord referred—not proper cases of marriage, but cases of property, in which the legitimacy of one of the parties was incidentally raised as a point for decision; and to that class of cases we must look for the labours and difficulties which had so oppressed and perplexed the noble Lord, and for the numerous judgments of reversal which it had been his duty to pronounce; for of course they were not to be found in the one case of marriage which had been affirmed. Now, as to that other class of cases—namely, questions of property—there was of course the case from Glasgow, to which the noble Lord had particularly referred as an instance of reversal; and there were how many more—not of reversals, but of cases altogether? Absolutely none—not one. The case from Glasgow was actually the only case of the class that had occurred during the whole period of the judicial experience of the noble and learned Lord; and as the reversals could scarcely be more numerous than the cases, it was not wonderful that the noble Lord was unable to refer specifically to any other instance of reversal. But what must be the astonishment of the House when he informed them that this Glasgow case was not reversed. It was affirmed. It was affirmed with costs; and it was affirmed with costs after a speech from the noble and learned Lord himself urging its affirmance. He hoped he might now take leave of that part of the case in support of the Bill, which depended upon the judicial experience of its noble and learned author. Objects that loomed large in the deceptive mist of generality having now been examined in the clear atmosphere of ascertained fact, their utter insignificance was put beyond question. If by any chance what he had now said should ever reach the noble and learned Lord, he hoped it might have the effect of relieving him from a load of painful anxiety under which he seemed to be labouring, from an erroneous impression, that for eight or ten years he had been wading through cases which were not before him, and reversing judgments which he was actually affirming.
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But there was another affliction under which that noble and learned Lord was labouring, and from which he (Mr. M'Neill) was desirous also to relieve him. In the course of his evidence, the noble Lord had told the Committee that it was with much sorrow that he, being the son of a clergyman of the Established Church of Scotland, found that this Bill was opposed by the clergy of that Church; and that although he was not disposed to say anything at all disrespectful of a body towards whom he felt nothing but respect and affection, he feared that on this occasion they were influenced by an unwillingness that a marriage by a clergyman not of the Established Church should hereafter be put upon the same footing with a marriage by a clergyman of the Established Church. In short, that they were actuated by a jealousy which was unworthy of them, and which the noble Lord could not observe without deep regret. If he (Mr. M'Neill) could have believed that the respected clergy of the Church of Scotland had been actuated by such unworthy motives, he would have participated in the sorrow of the noble Lord; but if, on the other hand, it should appear that there was no ground whatever for the imputation of the noble Lord, he might then appeal to the opposition of the Church as no unimportant fact in the consideration of this Bill. Now, what ground was there for the imputation which the noble Lord had cast upon the respectable clergy of the Church of Scotland, of being actuated by an unworthy jealousy of their Dissenting brethren acquiring, through this Bill, the power of celebrating marriage? The noble Lord was asked to explain in what respect this Bill alters the relative position of the Established clergymen and of Dissenting clergymen with regard to marriages. His answer was—"At present a marriage by a Dissenting clergyman, I rather think, is not strictly regular." The learned Lord Advocate, who could not fail to see the difficulty into which his witness was likely to get, interposed interrogatively with the remark—"He cannot marry without banns—he is subject to punishment if he marries without banns." But the noble Lord, not availing himself of the hint, and having no want of confidence in his own opinion on the point, answered without hesitation—"There are statutes forbidding marriages unless by clergymen of the Established Church." This is altogether a mistake. There were

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such statutes—some of them in the reign of Charles IL, but those statutes have been repealed—and Dissenting clergymen are as competent to celebrate marriages validly and regularly as clergymen of the Establishment. It is true, as noticed by the learned Lord Advocate, that they are liable to punishment if they do so without proclamation of banns; but so are the clergymen of the Establishment. Neither is permitted to celebrate marriage without proclamation of banns—either may celebrate marriage if the banns have been proclaimed. There is no difference in that respect, in so far as regards the functions of the clergymen, and accordingly marriages are every day validly and regularly celebrated by Dissenting clergymen. He was sure it would be a great relief and satisfaction to the noble Lord to find, that there was no ground for his suspicion of unworthy jealousy. It was impossible that any such jealousy should exist; for the cause out of which it was supposed to have sprung existed only in the mind of the noble Lord, whose suspicious conception had obviously enough been generated in his imperfect acquaintance with the subject. The House had been reminded by the supporters of this Bill, that both it and the Registration Bill had twice passed the other House of Parliament—once in 1848, after having been subjected to the consideration of a Select Committee; and again in 1849; and this appeared to be pressed upon the House as a sufficient reason why it should now approve of the Bill. In regard to the manner in which the Bill had been introduced into and carried through the other House of Parliament in the present Session, he had lately observed very strong complaints and accusations publicly made by at least one noble Lord; but whether these complaints be well or ill-founded, undoubtedly the fact was, that the Bill had passed the House of Lords. It had been introduced there by a noble and learned Lord, holding a high position in the Government—accustomed to advise the House of Lords in matters of law, and well entitled to do so. The House of Lords had been in use to rely, and might be justified in relying, much on the advice of that noble and learned Lord in such matters. It had even been known following his advice to reject the almost unanimous opinion of the Twelve Judges of England, whom it had consulted. He was doing no injustice to that noble Lord, when he assumed
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that the views which he urged in his place in Parliament, in support of the Bill he had there introduced, were not materially different from those which he had given to the Committee, when examined as a witness in support of the same Bill. He would be doing injustice to the noble Lord if he made any other assumption. He could not possibly suppose anything else. Then if that was so, if the noble and learned Lord gave the House of Lords to understand that its judicial sittings were consumed in hearing, deciding, and reversing Scotch cases of marriage—if he gave the House of Lords to understand that no Dissenting clergyman could validly or regularly celebrate marriage, even between members of his own congregation—that all these evils and restrictions would be cured by the measure which he recommended, and that the opposition of the Church of Scotland was traceable to an unworthy jealousy—is it wonderful that the House of Lords should have passed these Bills? Farther, he contended that the circumstance of these Bills having passed the House of Lords could not fairly he pressed on this House now as a reason for adopting them. The Bills as they emanated from the House of Lords had not been pressed upon this House as measures which it would be asked to pass. On the contrary, the course taken was to refer these Bills to a Select Committee. In that Committee, the Registration Bill had undergone alteration; and in regard to the Marriage Bill the Committee were of opinion that it should not be passed without inquiry into the subject. Inquiry had been granted, with the usual powers, and witnesses had been examined in support of the Bill. When the examination of these witnesses was concluded, some members of the Committee, with whom he concurred, proposed to examine witnesses as to the operation of the existing law in Scotland—its effect on the moral and social condition of the people—their feeling in regard to it, and the probable consequences of the proposed change. With that view they intended to examine persons who, by residence and position, were well qualified to give the information desired. Clergymen in populous towns, who were in constant and confidential communication with all classes—who had the best opportunities of observing their virtues and their vices, and of knowing their habits and the state of their feelings—magistrates of cities, whose attention had been specially called to the

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condition and habits of the population under their magistracy—persons of various religious denominations; and, in short, to draw information from the best and most authentic sources. They gave in the list, which had been already read to the House, of the names of some of the persons whom they had in view to examine. But they were met by a Motion, in the form of a resolution of the Committee, to confine the evidence to legal authorities on the present law of marriage—in short, to examine none but lawyers. That resolution was carried by a small majority; and those who desired a full and fair inquiry, declined to go into a partial and limited inquiry, which would have excluded from consideration the most important part of the case. Why, he would ask, should the inquiry be limited to the opinions of lawyers? There was no doubt as to what the law of Scotland was. No question had been raised upon that subject. The important matter for inquiry was the working and effect of the law. Surely lawyers were not the only persons qualified to give information as to that matter. The learned persons who had been examined in support of the Bill, had not limited their evidence to a statement or explanation of the law. They had favoured the Committee with very interesting and important speculations as to what, in their opinion, must be the effect of the law of Scotland on the morals and social condition of a people, as compared with the law proposed to be introduced by the present Bill. The speculative opinions of these learned persons on such a subject were no doubt entitled to great respect; but why should persons holding a different opinion, founded not on speculative views only, but on actual observation, be precluded from stating that opinion, and the facts on which it was rested? Noble and learned Lords were no doubt very confident that all those who differed from them were in error, or under delusion; but why should not some of those persons be permitted to vindicate their own opinions, even although by doing so they should refute those of noble and learned Lords? Why should the inquiry be limited to speculative opinions? Why exclude evidence as to the actual condition of things under the existing law? Why set up speculation on the one side, and refuse to hear on the other side direct evidence as to the actual state of the facts? Scotland is not an extensive country; the population is not great;
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and if the law which has so long prevailed there, to which the people are said to be so much wedded, under which their habits and dispositions have been formed in a matter so materially affecting their moral and social condition as that of marriage, be really a disgrace to any civilised country, and fit only for a semi-barbarous people; if its operation be really as baneful and as general as is alleged, one would suppose that Scotland must, by this time, be, throughout its whole length and breadth, more corrupt, more immoral and vicious, than any other country in the civilised world. But while this seems to be the necessary deduction from what we have urged in support of the Bill, no one has hazarded the assertion in direct terms. A state of moral disorganisation is vaguely assumed, not only without proof, but in face of a demand for inquiry, which has been refused. In the name of Scotland and of justice, he protested against the assumption while the inquiry was withheld. He denied that the existing law had promoted, or that it had a tendency to promote, immorality. He maintained that its tendency was to check immorality. What had Lord Campbell said in his evidence? He had said, "The people of Scotland, I am proud to say, are a very virtuous people." If that is a correct description of the character of the people, then it follows that the existing law is at all events compatible with a high state of virtue. Whether it has contributed to produce that high state of virtue may be matter of opinion and speculation; but the fact that virtue is the concomitant of the existing law in Scotland, is anything but a reason for altering that law. Who shall answer for the consequences of the alteration? What is the state of matters in England in one important particular connected with this subject, as spoken to by Lord Brougham? His Lordship was asked, with reference to England, whether cases of breach of promise of marriage, accompanied with seduction, were of frequent occurrence, and he answered, "Very often; indeed, it is a very common case to have actions for seduction, where the man has seduced the woman by promising marriage;" and Dr. Lushington gave evidence to the same effect. Cases of that description are rare in Scotland. Thus, then, it appears from the evidence of the witnesses in support of the Bill, that a high state of virtue is the concomitant of the existing law in the one country—that frequent

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seduction, under promise of marriage, is the concomitant of the existing law in the other country. Why should you endeavour to assimilate the former to the latter? To remedy or prevent an evil which you gratuitously assume, but have not proved to exist in connexion with the present law of Scotland, you strangely enough propose to substitute a state of law under which, in England, experience has proved that the evil does exist in an aggravated degree. His right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate had alluded to cases of seduction that had come to his own knowledge in consultation, and had at the same time apologised for so far making himself a witness in this discussion. Any information communicated by his right hon. and learned Friend was at all times worthy of attention; but he (Mr. M'Neill) must take the liberty of asking, why the true extent of the evil should not be ascertained, if it were really worth knowing? Why was the inquiry not gone into fully before the Committee? Why was it stifled by the supporters of the Bill? His light hon. and learned Friend had with considerable dramatic effect given a narrative of two cases, on the impression from which he appeared to place much reliance as recommending the present measure. No one could dress up incidents, however unimportant, with more powerful effect than his right hon. and learned Friend; but what did these two cases amount to? One of them had occurred upwards of thirty years ago. A gentleman, who had lived in a way not to be commended, having formed a resolution which could not be too strongly deprecated, to put a period to his existence, had also resolved not to quit this world without doing towards his family what he felt to be an act of justice already too long delayed. Was that a ground of objection to the law of Scotland? Was it any reason for the proposed interference with that law? Would the law of England have prevented such an occurrence? Could the law of England prevent a man from marrying a woman with whom he had so lived; or could it prevent him from shooting himself next hour? [An Hon. MEMBER: The law of England would not allow him so to legitimate his children.] True, the law of England would not have held out that inducement to marry. Is it then any part of the objection now made to the law of Scotland, that it holds out that inducement to marry? The objection hitherto has been not in regard to inducement to
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marry, but as to the mode of constituting and proving the marriage. This Bill deals only with that matter. If any hon. Member objects to the law of legitimation by subsequent marriage, let him not be deceived by the notion that this Bill will alter that law. It will not do so. It is not intended to do so. It does not deal with the matter of legitimation by subsequent marriage. It leaves that part of the law of Scotland untouched; and the noble and learned Lord who introduced the Bill, has said that he highly approves of not touching that part of the law. Thus, neither the law of England, nor the proposed alteration of the law of Scotland, could prevent a man from contracting a marriage, or from putting an end to his existence, if so disposed. The tragic occurrence of upwards of thirty years ago, which had been pressed into the argument, had therefore truly no bearing on the merits or demerits of the present measure. The other case was of a date equally re-mote. About forty years ago, a gentleman of high position in society, so far forgot for the time what was worthy of and due to that position, in point of honour and truth, and observance of the law, as to marry a lady in England, while he had a wife living in Scotland; and so he might have done, if he had a wife living in France or in Holland. In short, he committed bigamy. And this one case of bigamy, forty years ago, without even an allegation of any similar case since that time, is brought forward at the present day as a reason for now altering the law of Scotland in regard to the constitution of marriage. Is bigamy unknown in England? Is it more rare in England than in Scotland? Do the restrictions and regulations of the law of England, and its costly establishment of registers, prevent bigamy? Let those who have examined the returns of crime for some years past, answer in the affirmative if they can. He did not contend that if we Were now framing a code for a newly-established nation or colony, the law in regard to marriage, as it exists in Scotland, was exactly and in ail respects that which he would propose. Neither was he prepared to say, that he would in such a case give an unqualified approval of the plan proposed by the present Bill. He might perhaps not be much dissatisfied with either, though in all probability he would prefer something a little different from both. But such were not the circumstances under which the House

35
was now asked to legislate. It was asked to interfere with the long-established law of a nation—a law with which the people were familiar and contented; which was in accordance with their feelings and habits; and from which it has not been shown that any great practical evil had resulted. If this had been a case in which the prevalence of immorality and vice, or any other crying evil, had been proved or admitted; and if, after due inquiry, properly conducted, the evil had been traced to an ascertained cause, then it might have been right to endeavour to eradicate the evil by removing the ascertained cause. But there was no such case before the House. On the contrary, the inquiry had been resisted and shrunk from when proposed. Why is this course of interference pressed and persisted in? You are not here dealing with a nation of barbarians whom you have lately subjugated—whom, in the exuberance of philanthropy, you are desirous to release from the baneful influence of a barbarous code, or a heathenish superstition, which threatens to retard the progress of civilisation, and resist the influence of religion and morality—though even in such cases you have shown perhaps more respect for the feelings and habits of the people. You are not here called upon by a regard for public safety to put under restraint the dangerous dispositions of the inhabitants of one portion of the empire—you are not here endeavouring, in opposition to the interested prejudices or bigotry of a few, to extend to the many the benefits of sound instruction. Cases such as these might justify your perseverance in unsolicited interference; but you are here dealing with a case in every respect a contrast to these. You are dealing with and going to interfere with the laws and habits of a civilised people, distinguished for their enterprise and industry—who, under these laws have within the last century made more rapid progress and improvement in agriculture—in commerce and manufactures—in moral and intellectual culture, and in their whole social condition, than perhaps any other people in Europe, and are now in some departments the rivals, if not even the superiors, of their more wealthy southern neighbours. A people, too, whose orderly conduct—whose respect for constituted authority, and obedience to established law, might be cited as an example among modern nations—a people whose avidity and thirst for knowledge, and laudable appreciation of the advantages of education, have
36
long been acknowledged—whose general character for virtue has been extolled by the author of this Bill. Why should you rudely interfere with the laws and customs of such a people—laws which, if they have not caused, have at least not prevented them from attaining their present condition. The people of Scotland, while possessing the character and qualities he had described, were not wanting in sagacity, or in a shrewd perception of their own interests—nor would they hesitate to make known their desires when it was for their advantage to do so. Had they desired this change? If so, when, where, how, and by whom, had they expressed the desire? Had it been by their petitions to Parliament, or by their representatives in Parliament? He had heard of no petitions in favour of the Bill, except one, or perhaps two, and these had not been referred to as important. Then, as to the expression of the opinion of the people through their representatives in this House, no Scotch Member had as yet risen in his place, and stated that he was going to vote for this Bill, and that his vote would be in accordance with the declared wishes of his constituents. One hon. Member, with a manliness which he (Mr. O'Neill) admired, and acting on a principle which, in the general case, he must admit to be sound, had lately announced his intention to vote in favour of the measure; because, in his own judgment, he thought it right, while, at the same time, he candidly stated that his constituents had by petitions declared against it. All that he would say on that point was, that the opinions of the people of that part of Scotland could not, on this question, be held to be represented by the vote of the hon. Gentleman. He might say the same thing of the votes of most of the hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were now going to divide with the Government in favour of this Bill. The Government would be deceiving itself if it supposed that it could rely on these votes as any indication of the opinions or feelings on this question entertained by the people of those parts of Scotland of which these hon. Gentlemen were the representatives in Parliament. But while there was no expression of opinion from Scotland in favour of this Bill, there was a strong expression of opinion against it. He was more than surprised to hear his right hon. and learned Friend speak of the petitions against the Bill in the disparaging terms in which he had spoken of them. He had

37
described them as utterly worthless and insignificant.
The LORD ADVOCATEexplained. What he had said was, that as a proof to be relied on of a general feeling throughout Scotland, they were worthless and insignificant.
MR. M'NEILLwould presently show the extent to which the petitions might be regarded as indicative of the opinions and feelings of the public in Scotland; but he might now assume that to the extent to which they did go—as exponents of the opinions of at least certain classes and districts—they were admitted to be neither worthless nor insignificant. His right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate had treated those petitions as if they had proceeded altogether from clergymen of the established and other ecclesiastical bodies. But how did the fact stand? An opportunity bad been afforded to the counties of Scotland to take the measure into consideration at their annual meetings on the 30th April. They had done so, and all the counties in Scotland, with a very few exceptions, had sent up petitions against the measure.
MR. FOX MAULE: These petitions were also against the Registration Bill—against the two Bills conjointly.
MR. M'NEILL: But against this Bill—and if they were directed against this Bill in connexion with the Registration Bill, they were necessarily, and most pointedly, against it in its present form; for he had already shown, and he repeated, that this Bill in effect adopted and embodied into it the Registration Bill. It could not stand by itself. It depended on the Registration Bill being passed, and all who were opposed to the Registration Bill must resist the present Bill. The counties of Scotland, then, with very few exceptions, had petitioned against this measure, and of those that had not actually petitioned this year, some had petitioned last year, and some had contented themselves this year with reiterating, in resolutions passed at public meetings, their continued dissatisfaction with the measure. The county which he had the honour to represent had not sent up a petition; but they had at a public meeting passed resolutions, temperately yet firmly expressed, in reference both to the Marriage Bill and the Registration Bill. They were not opposed to an improved system of registration, though they deprecated a complex and expensive system. They were opposed to interfering
38
with the law of marriage needlessly, incautiously, or without duo inquiry, though they were not opposed to putting a check on border marriages; and they had requested him to support these views, which he had now great pleasure in doing, being happily in perfect accordance with his own. No county, he believed, had passed resolutions in favour of this Bill. So much for the counties. Next as to the burghs. The burghs comprehended about one-third of the population of Scotland. There was an institution recognised by law called the Convention of Royal Burghs, and which consisted of delegates from all the burghs in Scotland, who assembled once a year, or oftener, in Edinburgh, and deliberated on matters affecting their interests. At the Convention of 1849, the matter of these Bills was taken into consideration. They were disapproved of, and a petition against them was voted unanimously. Thug you had all, or nearly all, the counties petitioning, and you bad the assembled delegates from all the burghs petitioning, Then there were separate petitions from the popularly elected town-councils of most of the largo towns in Scotland. The town-councils of Edinburgh, of Dundee, of Perth, of Greenock, of Leith, of Inverness, of Stirling, of Kilmarnock, of St. Andrews, of Haddington, and many others, had petitioned against the Bill. There was also another body of persons, popularly elected to a great extent, and who bad a very material interest in the probable effects of this measure, especially with a knowledge of the fearful extent of bastardy in some parts of England—he meant the parochial hoards of populous parishes. Petitions against this measure had been presented from the parochial boards of many of the most populous parishes in Scotland—the parochial board of the city parishes of Edinburgh of the great suburban parish of St. Cuthbert's—of the city parishes of Glasgow—of the great suburban parish of the Barony—of the parishes of Dundee, of Paisley, of Greenock, of Leith, of Port-Glasgow, of Campbelltown, and several others. Then turn to another class of petitions—he meant those from the clergy, who may be said to be the guardians of the morals as well as of the religious character of the people. These petitions were admitted to be numerous; but it had been said that they all emanated from the same body of persons subdividing themselves into sections so as to multiply the petitions—that

39
there was first the General Assembly of the Church—then the same body as the Commission of the General Assembly, and so forth. But the fact was, that the Commission of Assembly which had petitioned against the Bill in March or April last, was the Commission of the Assembly of, 1848, and that afterwards, in the month; of May, the newly-elected Assembly of, 1849 had also petitioned against the Bill. I There were likewise many petitions from: Presbyteries; and it had been said that; the Presbyteries were composed of the same individuals as the General Assembly. That also was incorrect. The General Assembly was a representative body elected by the presbyteries, universities, and burghs. And was it of no importance that when the representatives who had voted the petition in Assembly went back to their respective presbyteries, not only was their conduct approved of by their constituents, but additional petitions were sent up by these constituents themselves to the same effect? There were also petitions from the inhabitants of some parishes. It had been said that the signatures to the petitions were not numerous; but it must be remembered that most of the petitions had emanated from public bodies and public meetings, and were signed only by the official heads of these bodies, or the chairmen of the meetings. In these circumstances, he did not think that the observation as to the number of signatures was entitled to much consideration. How, then, did the case stand on the petitions? There were against the Bill petitions from almost every county in Scotland. Prom the assembled delegates of all the burghs in Scotland—from the popularly elected town-councils of almost all the great towns in Scotland—from the parochial boards of many of the most populous parishes in Scotland—from the representatives of the Church convened in General Assembly—and from many of the presbyteries and several parishes. In so far as appeared, the counties were against the Bill—the towns were against the Bill—the parochial boards were against the Bill—the Church was against the Bill—while, on the other side, not a voice had been raised in its favour. The only conclusion he could draw from these facts was, that the public voice had declared against the Bill. If the public feeling was, as it appeared at present to be, against the measure, he had heard no adequate reason assigned for taking a step which would do
40
violence to public feeling in such a matter; and he could not understand why, in these circumstances, the Bill should be pressed on. His right hon. and learned Friend had complained, that although this was the third year in which the Bill had been brought before the House, there was still a reluctance to pass it; and he seemed to think that it was very unreasonable on the part of Scotland not to be now ready to take this measure. Thrice had it been tendered, and thrice had they declined it. His right hon. and learned Friend seemed almost to insinuate, that the oftener they looked at it, the less were they disposed to take it—so provokingly unreasonable were they. Is it not possible that some part of the unreasonableness may be on the other side? You take a fancy to prescribe for a man who, to all appearance, is in good health; and be, being unconscious of any ailment, and having no fancy to become your patient, declines to take the prescription. For three years you continue to press your specific upon him, and he as steadily rejects it, feeling perfectly well, and exhibiting no symptoms of illness. At last you become impatient at his unreasonableness and obstinacy in refusing to swallow your medicine, and yon insist on thrusting the dose down his throat, in defiance of his most strenuous remonstrances, and notwithstanding a distinct offer to prove, by witnesses of the greatest experience and skill, that he is in as good health as you or any other man living. He really hoped that the bystanders would not allow such treatment to be practised. He had received from various parts of Scotland communications expressing much apprehension of evil from this measure, and he had considered it his duty not to give a silent vote on the occasion. Having now stated the grounds on which mainly he resisted the further progress of the Bill—and, he hoped, without having pressed these views at greater length or more strongly than the circumstances justified—he would conclude by again reminding the House that it was not called upon to contrive a now law for a new state of matters, or for a new country, but it was asked to alter the long-established law of an en-lightened, orderly, and virtuous people, who had not invited such interference, but, on the contrary, had with remarkable unanimity raised their voices against it. The House was asked so to interfere, not only without inquiry, but while inquiry was refused. He trusted that it would not

41
sanction such a course of proceeding, but would adopt the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Peebles-shire.
Mr. FOX MAULEsaid, that considering the importance of this question, he could not allow it to go to a vote without expressing shortly his inducement for voting for the measure before the House. If the best thing that could happen to Scotland was to be to encourage clandestine marriages, then the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite was right; but if the House saw the evil of those marriages, and determined to put an end to concealed marriages, then it would accept of the measure proposed by his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate to put an end to the evil that must inevitably arise from clandestine marriages. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed not to attempt to convince the House, but to win the votes of hon. Members first by stating that the Committee of the House had shrunk from a full inquiry into this subject, and next by saying that any person who voted for the Marriage Bill must pledge himself to vote for the Registration Bill. The House must recollect that the Committee referred to by the hon. and learned Gentleman was not a Committee appointed to inquire into the general state of the law in Scotland, but only a Committee which was to inquire into the details of this Bill; and as the hon. and learned Gentleman had expressed such strong feelings on the present occasion, he (Mr. F. Maule) should have liked to have seen his opinions recorded upon the report of that Committee. But, let him ask, who was it who had introduced a law to put an end to clandestine marriages in England. It was no less an individual than Lord Hardwicke; and surely his authority ought to be of some weight in attempting to carry that same law a step further—namely, into Scotland. To his mind there could be no doubt that the moral condition of any people must be advanced by a law requiring that marriages should be made public, and clandestine marriages put an end to. The hon. and learned Gentleman had complained that his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate had treated slightingly the petitions which had been sent up against this Bill. He had, on the contrary, expressed his highest respect for the petitioners themselves, but he had protested against those petitions being taken
42
as a test of the feeling of the entire people of Scotland. It had been said that the voice of the people of Scotland, throughout its length and breadth, was against this Bill; as to that, however it might be, he agreed with the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate that the petitions before the. House were not to be taken as evidence of any such thing. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said that there were petitions against the Bill from almost every comity in Scotland; but the hon. and learned Gentleman forgot to state that those petitions were from the Commissioners of Supply, persons appointed to take into consideration all matters relative to local taxation, and who never lost an opportunity of petitioning against any measure involving in any respect the principle of taxation. He did not believe that there had been half-a-dozen public meetings held in any part of the country with respect to this Bill. Whatever expression of opinion had been made against the Bill, had proceeded from town-councils of boroughs, and from those alone, and could only be considered as expressing their individual opinions. The city of Glasgow had, however, approved of the Bill; and he thought he might fairly place that expression of opinion against that expressed by less important towns in the country. He had no wish whatever to cram down the throats of the people of Scotland a measure which he believed to be antagonistic to their best feelings. He believed, however, that if the feelings of the people of Scotland could be ascertained with respect to this Bill, they would state at once that they preferred the security afforded by it to the present state of the law in that country. Believing, as he did, that this measure was calculated to promote the morality and security of society, he should give his most cordial support to the Motion for the third reading of the Bill.
MR. M'NEILLexplained: When it was suggested in the Committee that his right hon. and learned Friend and himself might be examined as to the law, he had stated, that although it was no doubt competent for Members of the Committee to give evidence, he thought such a course—where there was no necessity for it—had better be avoided; and that as plenty of other witnesses to the law were accessible, he thought it would, on the whole, be better that those Gentlemen who were afterwards to deliberate and decide on the evidence, should not themselves be wit-

43
nesses. He was not examined, neither was his right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate.
MR. HUMEsaid, that he believed they had shrunk from the proof of their case, when they refused to receive the evidence of those respectable persons whom it had been proposed to call as witnesses against the Bill. With respect to the conduct of the Government as regarded this Bill, he thought they had learned this important lesson, that Scotch business ought to be better treated than it was. This was the first four hours during the whole Session that had been devoted to a consideration of the affairs of Scotland. With regard to the Bill itself, he believed that the opinion of the people of Scotland was most decidedly opposed to it. He had himself presented petitions from Leith, Perth, and numerous other places against the Bill. He was perfectly prepared to vote with the Government in favour of a measure for the abolition of Gretna-green marriages, and he believed the people of Scotland would generally be favourable to such a measure. He regretted to find the noble Lord at the head of the Government so determined to proceed with this Bill, against the unanimous feeling of the people. It had been said that the law of marriage in Scotland was worthy only of a semi-barbarous country. He denied that such was the case. As countries became civilised, institutions changed and accommodated themselves to the improvements which were constantly being made. There was nothing in the morality of Scotland to show that there was anything barbarous in its institutions. On the contrary, a comparison between the two countries would show a decided advantage in favour of Scotland. It had been said, as one reason for passing this Bill, that it had been sent down by the House of Lords three times. He hoped it would be sent down thirty times. The very fact of its having been sent down so often proved that it was utterly worthless, for there never was a Bill that was worth anything treated in such a manner. He trusted either that the House would reject the Bill, or that the Government would withdraw it, in order to prevent its rejection by the House.
Question put, "That the words 'Monday next' stand part of the Question."
The House divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 68: Majority 5.

List of the AYES.

Alcock, T.

Hodgson, W. N.

Armstrong, R. B.

Howard, Lord E.

Baines, M. T.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Baring, rt. hon. Sir. F. T.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Bellew, R. M.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Lewis, G. C.

Berkeley, C. L. G.

Lushington, C.

Boyle, hon. Col.

Mahon, The O'Gorman

Bright, J.

Melgund, Visct.

Campbell, hon. W. F.

Milner, W. M. E.

Carter, J. B.

Morris, D.

Chaplin, W. J.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Cholmeley, Sir M.

O'Brien, J.

Clay, Sir W.

O'Connell, M. J.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Coles, H. B.

Parker, J.

Cowan, C.

Perfect, R.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Power, Dr.

Craig, W. G.

Price, Sir R.

Duff, G. S.

Pusey, P.

Dundas, rt. hon. Sir D.

Rich, H.

Ellice, rt. hon. E.

Robinson, G. R.

Ellice, E.

Russell, Lord J.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Rutherfurd, A.

Ferguson, Col.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Somerville, rt. hn. Sir W.

FitzPatrick, rt. hn. J. W.

Stuart, Lord J.

Freestun, Col.

Towneley, J.

Greene, J.

Traill, G.

Grenfell, C. W.

Tufnell, H.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Williams, J.

Grey, R. W.

Wilson, J.

Hawes, B.

Wilson, M.

Hay, Lord J.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Wood, W. P.

Heywood, J.

TELLERS.

Heyworth, L.

Hill, Lord M.

Hodges, T. L.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

List of the NOES.

Anderson, A.

Forester, hon. G. C. W.

Arbuthnott, hon. H.

Fuller, A. E.

Arkwright, G.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.

Bagot, hon. W.

Gooch, E. S.

Baillie, H. J.

Gordon, Adm.

Bankes, G.

Hallyburton, Lord J. F.

Beresford, W.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Hastie, A.

Bremridge, R.

Herbert, H. A.

Brooke, Sir A.

Hood, Sir A.

Charteris, hon. F.

Hornby, J.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Hughes, W. B.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Hume, J.

Conolly, T.

Jones, Capt.

Cubitt, W.

Lennox, Lord H. G.

Dalrymple, Capt.

Lincoln, Earl of

Disraeli, B.

Lockhart, A. E.

Dodd, G.

Lockhart, W.

Drumlanrig, Visct.

M'Neill, D.

Duff, J.

M'Taggart, Sir J.

Duncan, Visct.

March, Earl of

Duncan, G.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.

Egerton, Sir P.

Meux, Sir H.

Egerton, W. T.

Morrison, Sir W.

Ewart, W.

Mullings, J. R.

Farnham, E. B.

Naas, Lord

Fergus, J.

Oswald, A.

Floyer, J.

Pilkington, J.

Forbes, W.

Powlett, Lord W.

Fordyce, A. D.

Scott, hon. F.

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Sotheron, T. H. S.

Thompson, Col.

Spooner, R.

Vivian, J. E.

Stafford, A.

Vyse, R. H. R. H.

Stuart, H.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

TELLERS.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Dundas, G.

Question again proposed, "That the Bill be read the Third Time upon Monday next."
MR. GLADSTONEexpressed his hope that, after the division which had just taken place, the right hon. and learned Lord would not press the Bill further this Session. Though not a Scotch Member himself, yet, from his connexion with Scotland, he knew well the state of feeling in that country with regard to this Bill; and he wished to point out to the right hon. and learned Lord that his case, viewed as a Parliamentary one, had virtually been abandoned by him. He put it to the right hon. and learned Lord whether, when he or the Committee went so far as to admit the necessity of taking evidence on this Bill, and then refused to take evidence beyond a certain point, they were justified in 80 doing, if they intended to press the Bill this Session? On that ground the case for the Bill was not a good one. Every one who had heard the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Argyllshire, must have felt that he had urged with resistless force the claims of the people of Scotland, and the necessity for fuller inquiry into a matter so closely connected with their feelings, before they proceeded to legislate upon it. He hoped, therefore, that after what they had seen of the sense of the House in connexion with the sense of the people of Scotland, no further attempt would be made to proceed with the measure, and that the time of the House would not be further wasted with discussions regarding it.
LORD J. RUSSELLcould not admit that the time of the House had been wasted by a Motion which had afforded an opportunity for the important speech of the hon. and learned Member for Argyllshire, in which he had stated his reasons against the Bill. After hearing the debate they had just had, all he would now do was to ask the House to allow him a certain time to decide on the course the Government should adopt. He did not wish for any long time, and would fix the Bill for Thursday, when the Government would be prepared to announce whether they would proceed with it or not.
Debate adjourned till Thursday.

RAILWAYS AND DISTRESSED UNIONS (IRELAND).
On the Motion of the CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, the House resolved itself into Committee on an advance for Railways and Distressed Unions in Lreland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERsaid, that the object of the Motion which he was about to put into the hands of the Chairman was to enable the Government to make advances for the construction of a railway between the towns of Athlone and Galway. The Government had received applications from several parts of Ireland for advances of public money for the purpose of constructing or finishing lines of railway in Ireland. They had been asked to make advances in some instances because the lines were nearly finished, and in other cases because they had not been commenced; and in each case the parties no doubt thought they had adduced most excellent reasons. He admitted that it would be most advantageous for Ireland if some of these railways were completed; but, for the reasons which he had formerly explained, he did not think it was the duty of the Government to make advances, generally, for the construction or completion of lines of railway. In stating this, however, he felt bound to say, after the fullest consideration, that he thought a special case had been made out for an advance for the construction of a trunk line to the west of Ireland, on the same ground as that on which they formerly advanced a sum for the completion of a line to the south and south-west of Ireland. They had also taken into consideration the extreme distress which existed in the west of Ireland, and, with a view to the employment of the inhabitants of those parts, they felt that nothing could be better than to promote the opening of a direct line of railway between Dublin and Galway. The parts of the country which would be affected were known in that House as some of the most destitute unions, where the sufferings of the people were extremely great. A company had been formed in Ireland, and had obtained Acts to construct a line of railway from Dublin to Galway. A portion of this line was actually open, namely, from Dublin to Mullingar, a distance of nearly fifty miles; and not only was this existing line between Dublin and Mullingar reported of in the most favourable manner, but the company deserved every credit for the mode in

47
which they had proceeded. There was a second portion of the line, namely, from Mullingar to Athlone, a distance of twenty-eight miles, on which the works to a small extent had been carried on; and the company had undertaken to complete it within a limited period. This was as much as could be expected under the circumstances. Early in the Session the Government had had under their consideration projects for facilitating the communication with the west of Ireland. Several gentlemen connected with the west of Ireland, and more especially with Galway, had held repeated communications with them on the subject, and arrangements had at last been conic to, which had met with the concurrence of all parties interested, and which, if the House would sanction, would insure the completion, before the expiration of two years, of a railway between Dublin and Galway. As he had already stated, the company had constructed the railway from Dublin to Mullingar by their own funds; and there was a fair presumption that the line from Dublin to Athlone would shortly be completed, for the amount of the debt of this railway company, beyond that for the purchase of a canal, did not exceed 20,000 l The estimate for the formation of the line between Mullingar and Athlone was 300,000 l., while that for the line between Athlone and Galway was about 500,000 l.; but he believed the expense might be reduced below the latter sum. He would, however, take 500,000 l. as the sum to be advanced by the Government, and in this sum there was included the charge for two aqueducts over the rivers Shannon and Suck. This money would be advanced at the rate of 3½ per cent, and the repayments were to commence after a period of ten years, when the debt was to be paid by instalments. For such repayments it was intended to take as security the receipts of the whole line. There would be ample guarantee for the amount of interest payable to the Government, for the baronies on the line were bound to make good to the company the difference between the profits of the line, and the interest due by them to the Government. In order to ascertain clearly and distinctly the state of the property, an auditor would be appointed by the Government, whose duty it would be to investigate the accounts of the company, and his decision was to be final as to the proportion in which the interest on the sum advanced should be shared, between
48
the company and the baronies. In advancing this sum for the construction of the line between Athlone and Galway, they did not consent to do so without at the same time insisting that contemporaneously with this the company should construct out of their own capital the line between Mullingar and Athlone, and stipulations had been entered into for this purpose. Before any instalment was advanced, the Government must be satisfied that the company were prepared to expend three-fifths of that sum on the line between Mullingar and Athlone. Thus, for every 100,000 l. advanced by the Government, 60,000 l. must be advanced out of the funds of the company. The whole of it must be completed by December, 1851, and the Government would have power to take possession of the whole if the line was not completed at the expiration of that period. The whole amount to be expended was 800,000 l.; 500,000 l. advanced by the Government, and the rest by the company. This would confer great benefit on the districts through which it passed, in the employment of the poor labourers along the line, and it would also tend to the improvement of the districts lying near the line. An annual report of progress, and the effect which the employment of labour had produced, would be furnished to the Government, and laid before Parliament. He held in his hand a letter from Sir John Macneil, an engineer of the first eminence in Ireland, in reply to a request from the secretary of the Great Southern and Western Railway to know his opinion of the effect which the works of that company had produced in certain counties. The letter was as follows:—
"In reply to your letter requesting to know my opinion as to the amount of good which the works of the company have done in the counties of Tipperary, Limerick, and Cork, I beg to state that the number of persons employed by Mr. Dargan alone, in the excavations and embankments, in the gravel-pits and quarries, and along the line, exclusive of masons, carpenters, and other mechanics, has exceeded 15,000 a day. These men had an average of 9s. a week each, which they regularly received, and were by that means enabled to support themselves and their families. The total amount of individuals thus supported could scarcely he less than 80,000. Had it not been for the timely advance made by Government last Session of parliament, the greater part of these people, if not the whole, would have been thrown on the parishes or died of starvation. Most of the men employed on the works were from the immediate locality of the different works, though there were some from distant parts of the

49
country. The giving of this employment, and keeping so many people from the demoralising influence of the poorhouse, are not the least of the benefits which have been afforded by the advance of the public money; for the men so employed have been taught such habits of labour, and are so much improved in physical strength and efficiency of working, that they are now better worth 9s. a week, even as farm servants, than they were before worth 5s.; and it is a fact well known, that in every instance the men who have been employed in railway works, under regular contractors, and obliged to give full labour for their wages, have seldom afterwards wanted work. They readily find employment, either in this country or on public works in England and Scotland, and, in most cases, would prefer taking work by contract than by day's wages; which is very contrary to what they were accustomed to do, and proves as clearly as anything can, that their former slothful and idle habits have, in a great measure, been overcome, and changed into an energetic desire to improve their condition by exertion and labour—a feeling which it is most desirable to promote and encourage, and which, I believe, cannot be better accomplished than by such employment."
The House would be gratified to hear this account of the improvement of the working classes in that part of Ireland by the expenditure of the money which had been advanced by Government; and it was obvious that a great many of the labouring poor living in the districts along the proposed line, would be employed with similar benefit to the country and to themselves. That this would be the case was generally felt in the neighbourhood of the proposed railway; and he held in his hand a resolution passed at a large public meeting held at Galway, expressing the greatest satisfaction on learning that this line was to be constructed. He was convinced it was utterly impossible for the Government to undertake works of this description on a large scale: the improvement of the country must arise out of individual energy, enterprise, and expenditure. It might be, that, to a certain extent, property in this part of Ireland must change hands; but, at the same time, means might be taken to enable proprietors who continued on their estates to improve them to their own benefit and that of the country too. He was happy to hear that there was an increasing disposition to purchase and take on lease in that part of the country; and he knew of nothing better calculated to encourage such a disposition than increased means of communication, and facilities for the transmission of produce to this country. The construction of this line might be of great advantage in the development of the fisheries off that coast;
50
and as he saw no other possible means of effecting the beneficial objects to which he had adverted, he ventured to ask the House to sanction this advance of 500,000 l. towards the construction of this line of railway on the terms he had already stated.
"Res. 1.—That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury be authorised to direct Advances to be made out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland to the Exchequer Loan Commissioners, to an amount not exceeding 500,000 l., to be by them applied by way of loan, for the purpose of constructing a Railroad between Athlone and Gal-way,"
MR. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCHrose, pursuant to notice, "to call the attention of the House to the necessity of securing the completion of trunk lines of railway throughout Ireland." He would not enter on the details of the Government measure, until the Bill by which it was to be carried out was in the hands of Members. To some of its provisions, as explained by his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer—for instance, the liabilities sought to be imposed on the counties—he was strongly opposed; they were unjust, and not to be defended on principle, and if carried, would be the foundation of bitter animosity and litigation between the railway proprietors and the landholders in the districts through which they were to be made. Still, on the whole, he was happy to be able to say that he regarded this proposition as one of the most statesmanlike measures that had emanated from the Government. It went in the right direction, though he thought not far enough. It was his opinion that the employment afforded by the railways in England had, far more than the new poor-law, tended to check pauperism here; and he was satisfied that the extension of railways in Ireland would tend to the same happy result there. There had hitherto been far too little done by the Government of this country in the promotion of railways, despite the admirable examples shown them by far less wealthy and commercial countries. In England, up to 1847, 109,000,000 l. were expended in the construction of railways, the income from which is 9,000,000 l. In addition to this sum expended, there is a yearly outlay of 30,000,000 l. on the lines in progress of construction. Up to the end of 1848, about 200,000,000 l. had been laid out; and by the report of the Railway Commissioners, it appears probable that a further outlay of 90,000,000 l. will take place on lines authorised by Parliament. There

51
are now 3,918 miles open in England. In 1847, when about 2,600 miles were in operation, 60,000,000 of passengers, 20,000,000 of tons of goods, 2,000,000 of sheep, 500,000 black cattle, and 500,000 pigs, were carried; the traffic and works affording permanent employment to 50,000 persons, and temporary work to 254,000, making a total of no less than 304,000 persons employed about railways during the year. This, too, was exclusive of colliers, of men employed in iron works, engine and coach factories, and brickfields. If the estimate were made to include 400,000 heads of families, it would not be too much, and that would give 2,000,000 of individuals fed through railway employment in England. His belief was, that the enormous amount of wages annually paid on the lines, the saving in the transit of passengers, and the facilities for the transport of goods and produce, were much larger items in the aggregate of England's prosperity than many might suppose. The benefits to be derived from railways had struck foreign Governments so forcibly, that they had not, as in England, waited for private capitalists to come forward, but had advanced sums from the resources of the State. What had been done by the Belgian Government under M. Nothomb's administration, was familiar to everybody; but he doubted if what had been effected by other Continental States was equally well known. In the smaller German States, up to 1845, 541 miles had been constructed, at a cost of 9,676,249 l., in this proportion:—

Distance. Miles.

Cost. £

Baden

96

1,704,306

Government line

Brunswick and Hanover

38

209,707

ditto

Brunswick and Oehterleben

43

240,000

ditto

Brunswick & Hamburg

27½

127,500

ditto

Hamburg to Bergedorf

10½

191,332

Altona to Keil

64

382,500

Leipzig to Dresden

71½

975,000

Saxon Bavarian

51

900,000

¼ by State

Taunus Railway

28

291,666

Munich to Augsburg

37½

350,000

Purchased by Government

Louis, Southern and Northern

70

4,286,500

Government

Nuremburg and Furth

4

17,708

In Prussia, a comprehensive system of lines was traced out to the extent of 3,200
52
miles, of which, up to 1845, 652 miles were completed at a cost of 7,017,198 l., in this proportion:—

Distance.

Cost.

Berlin and Anhalf

93½

£ 726,873

Berlin and Potsdam

16

200,000

Berlin and Stettin

83

783,600

Berlin and Frankfort on Odor

49½

420,000

Lower Silesian

134

(3½ per) cent guaranteed by Government

1,200,000

Upper ditto

49½

630,000

Breslaw and Schweidnitz

37

285,000

Madgeburg and Leipsic

67½

615,000

Ditto and Halberstadt

35½

286,155

Dusseldorf and Elberfeld

16

304,170

Cologne and Aix-la-Chapelle

52

1,425,000

Ditto and Bonn

18½

131,400

652

£7,017,198

In Austria, the following lines had been made:—

Distance.

Cost.

Budweis Linzguimden

119

£342,600

Emp. Ferdinand's Nor

179

1,700,000

Vienna to Glognitz

46

1,050,000

Olmutz and Prague

151

1,843,725

Murzuschlag and Gratz.

57½

600,000

£5,536,325

In France, about 1,360 miles of railway had been opened. In Belgium, there had been 347 miles constructed by the State at a cost of 5,945,148 l.
In Sweden, the State guarantees 4 per cent for fifteen years: repayment of any money paid by the Government not to take place for ten years, and then only to be made from half the surplus profit over 6 six per cent, the terms being these: the lines to be purchased by the Government for twenty years, unless at a bonus of 25 per cent; to be exempted from ordinary taxation; Crown lands to be given free, and the labour of soldiers, paupers, and convicts at the disposal of Government, to be given to the companies at reduced wages. Electric telegraphs to be erected at the public expense. Even in our own colonies the principle has been acted upon. By an Act of the Legislature of New Brunswick, 6 per cent was guaranteed to the St. Andrew and Quebec Railway. This Act was sanctioned by Her Majesty in Council. The East India Company guaranteed to the shareholders in the Great Indian Peninsula Company a

53
dividend of 6 per cent; and the 11 and 12 Vic, c. 130, authorised Her Majesty to guarantee 4 per cent for loans for the construction of railways in the West Indies and the Mauritius. Eleven years ago, the attention of the Government was drawn to the expediency of developing the resources of Ireland by advances to Irish railways, and a measure was introduced by Lord Morpeth for applying two millions and a half to the purpose, but this proposal had not been carried out. Since that time, Acts had been obtained for the construction of thirty lines, extending to 1,676 miles. Fifteen of these lines were open, or in progress, extending to 450 miles altogether, 361 miles being actually open, leaving 1,200 miles, which the Legislature had decided to be necessary and remunerative, not commenced, nor likely to be commenced. The lines open were Kingstown, Drogheda, Great Southern and Western, Midland Great Western, Ulster, Ballymena. Those in progress are the Belfast Junction, Newry and Enniskillen, Dundalk and Enniskillen, Belfast and County Down, Warrenpoint and Rostre-vor, Waterford and Limerick, Waterford and Kilkenny, Cork and Bandon, South Eastern. It was no great wonder that hitherto capitalists had been deterred from entering more largely upon railway schemes in Ireland, when consideration was applied to the enormous sums which had been expended here upon railways. In England, up to the present time, a sum of nearly 200,000,000 l had been spent in the construction of railways, the cost per mile being—Blackwall, 289,980 l.; Croydon, 80,400 l.; Manchester and Bury, 70,000 l.; Manchester and Leeds, 64,582 l.; Manchester and Birmingham, 61,624 l.; Manchester and Sheffield, 56,316 l.; Brighton, 56,981 l.; Eastern Counties, 40,355 l.; Great Western, 46,870 l.; South Eastern, 44,412 l.; North Western, 41,612 l.; South Western, 28,004?. And not much wonder at this cost when you considered the monstrous expenditure for land and Parliamentary charges. The cost per mile for these items were—

For Land.

parliamentary Expenses.

Eastern Counties

£1,5,881

£886

Brighton

10,105

4,806

Great Western

6,421

985

Manchester and Birmingham

16,252

5,100

The Parliamentary expenses of the Grand Junction were 1,527 l. a mile; of the Blackwall, 14,414 l. Contrast this
54
with the cost of railways elsewhere. Mr. Preston, in a letter lately addressed by him to Lord John Russell, states that the entire cost of the German lines, up to the present time, averages only 10,940 l. a mile. In Belgium, the line from Ghent to Bruges cost 7,675 l.; that from Ghent to Courtrai, 6,620 l. per mile. Of the American railways, the Columbia and Philadelphia cost 10,000 l.; the Boston and Worcester, 7,700 l.; the Western, 7,300 l.; the Camden and Amboy, 4,100 l.; the Utica and Syracuse, 3,600 l.; the Richmond and Potomac, 3,600 l.; the Florida, 3,200 l.; Auburn, 2,990 l.; South Carolina, 2,600 l.; Central, 2,400 l.; Attica and Buffalo, 1,600 l.; of single lines, the average cost in America has been 5,000 l. per mile. There was no reason why the lines in Ireland should not be constructed upon as economic a scale, for the landlords would be ready to meet the various companies upon the most liberal terms, reflecting, as they must, upon this among other considerations of vital benefit to themselves and to their country, that the 60 per cent of outlay paid to unskilled labourers would, to that enormous extent, lighten the rates, and that the character of the labour would permanently raise the character and views of the labourers. In the county he had the honour to represent, the landlords gave up all claim to remuneration for the land taken by the Board of Works in 1847. Lord Lorton gave up 900 l.; Lord de Freyne, 800 l.; Lord Westmeath and Mr. Will, all gave up the sums for which they held the Board's certificates; and a similar course would, he was confident, be adopted by the Western landlords. He did not contend that it would be advisable to assist in the construction of the 1,200 miles of railway now left untouched, even although it might be shown that the returns would cover the expense. To secure to Ireland the advantage of trunk lines of railway would not require a larger advance altogether than 2,000,000 l.; and he was prepared to show that, should Government adopt his plan, the produce from the tax on passenger traffic would produce them an income of 16,000 l. a year over and above any liability to which they would be subjected, should there be no surplus revenues from the lines. He was deeply grateful for the advance now proposed; but he feared that, in the districts not immediately benefited, it would be considered a manifestation of favouritism towards a particular line; and, at least, as another illustration

55
of that bit-by-bit legislation which had long been the subject of complaint on the part of Ireland against the Imperial Parliament. The whole of the western district was without railways, and what he would propose, under the circumstances, was, that the State should construct about 110 miles of railway, commencing at Mullingar, and ending at Ballina, with branches to Sligo and Westport. Such a line would run through the very centre of the distressed unions—Ballina, Swinford, Castle-bar, Westport, Ballinrope, Roscommon, and Castlerea—all which places were suffering from the impossiblity of trasmitting their produce—the cost of carrying being often 25 per cent of the value; so that cultivation was almost at a stand. This would cost about 880,000 l, or, if the plan of Sir John M'Neil were adopted in the construction, only 400,000 l., a fair interest for which, say 2 per cent, should be guaranteed by the counties which received the benefit of the line. Unless facility of carriage was provided, it was unreasonable to expect that either capital or enterprise would be applied to agriculture in these districts. No investment would be made so long as the market for the produce is so distant from the place whore it was grown, and the mode of reaching it so dilatory and expensive. This State outlay would form the necessary basis of the work, and he would further propose to stimulate and encourage the investment of private capital by a loan of 1,500,000 l. upon the terms of double the amount lent being expended by the companies. He would propose to make this loan to the existing companies in the following proportions:—To the Midland Great Western, 460,000 l.; the Belfast Junction, 300,000 l.; the Dundalk or Newry and Enniskillen, 200,000 l.; the Londonderry and Enniskillen, 100,000 l.; the Waterford and Limerick, 200,000 l.; the Killarney Junction, 50,000 l.; and the Limerick and Ennis, 70,000 l.; the Cork and Bandon, 80,000 l.; the South Eastern, 40,0002. The security he proposed was a lien on the entire lines on which the paid-up capital of the companies had been expended. Were this done, Ireland would be put in a fair way to work out her own regeneration. A Northern trunk line would thus be secured, connecting Dublin, Drogheda, Dundalk, Newry, Belfast, Castleblaney, Armagh, Enniskillen, Strabane, Londonderry, and Coleraine. A Southern, connecting Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Ban-don, Killarney, Ennis, Carlow, Kilkenny,
56
and Waterford; and a Western, connecting Dublin, Galway, Sligo, Ballina, and Water-ford. The effect of affording this assistance would be to seure an outlay of about 5,000,000 l. in Ireland during the next three years. Employment would thus be given at once to 40,000 heads of families, and thus a maintenance afforded to the 200,000 souls dependent upon them. To provide even against the possibility of loss on the lines executed by Government, a guarantee of 2 percent should be given by the counties or baronies benefited. A liability of this kind could not fairly be objected to, as they would receive a very considerable increase to the value of their property. The line to Birmingham, about the same length, is shown to have added 360,312 l. to the value of the landed property, exclusive of all contingent advantages, while a description of property would be created which would not alone give employment to their ablebodied labourers, but contribute largely to their poor-rates. Hallways had always been found to create the means of permanent employment—they never contributed largely to the direct easement of the burden of poor-rate.

£

s.

d.

London and North Western, pays in parochial taxes, per acre

13

6

0

Lancashire and Yorkshire

14

10

0

Brighton

14

0

0

Dover

14

6

0

Great Western

9

16

0

South western

7

16

0

Midland

7

6

0

The effects they would have on Ireland, and on the development of its great mineral resources, was very ably shown in the pamphlet by the hon. Member for Tewkesbury, on Irish Wants and Practical Remedies. He says—
"Putting aside, for the present, the more prominent features, usually considered in reference to railway traffic, the rapid transit of passengers, the greater cheapness of fares, and the greater safety in travelling, we have to consider more particularly how a railway system will affect the agricultural interests of Ireland, which is so peculiarly dependent on those resources."
He we have the very valuable evidence given before the Select Committee in 1846 on the Railway Acts' Enactments. That competent authority, Mr. Smith, of Deanston, then said, that on a farm of 200 acres on a six course shift, with fifteen miles of transport, the charges of carriage by the old mode would be 142 l. 6s. 3d. and by railway it would be only 40 l. 8s. 9d., which is a yearly saving of 10 s. per acre; a sum

57
which in itself individually is small, and at once commands our belief, but in the aggregate is immense, Mr. Smith, it must be remembered, applied his data to Scotland and England, while in Ireland the system of carriage is much ruder, and more expensive. The census for 1841 estimates the number of cultivated acres in Ireland at 13,464,300, from which there would' result, if it were possible to apply a complete system, a gross saving of 6,000,000 l. or nearly 7,000,000 l. yearly—a vast poor-rate, which would very much diminish the amount of human suffering in that country. To carry a railway to every corner of the land is impracticable, but it is practicable to give the accommodation to a very great part of Ireland; and if only to the extent of one-half the surface, an immense saving would still he effected, amounting to the gross sum of 3,000,000 l. yearly—a fund which would be invaluable to Ireland. Mr. Smith stated before that Committee that land along the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway, previously not worth 5s. per acre, is now worth between 30 s. and 40 s. an acre. He farther stated, that railways with low rates—
"would very greatly tend to the increased consumption of manures, and to the transport of earth for agricultural purposes; that this would give a much increased produce to the land, which would enable the agriculturist to furnish his commodity at a lower rate."
There are seven coal-fields in Ireland—one in Leinster, two in Munster, three in Ulster, one in Connaught—and were proper means of transit provided, coals could be supplied throughout the country at one-third of their present cost. An eminent writer says—
"If food be of importance to mankind, so is fuel, though its value is vulgarly apt to be under-rated. To supply an increased quantity of fuel to the population is to increase their comforts, and to add to the value of human life."
Mr. Brown says—
"What effect an abundant and cheap supply of fuel produces we know by such examples as the removal of the iron works from Surrey, Sussex, and the southern districts, where wood fuel formerly abounded, to Staffordshire, South Wales, and the coal counties. The effect of the present monopoly prices of coal is often to prevent iron-foundries, brick-fields, potteries, breweries, and many common works from being carried on in parts of the country, though there are large populations to consume the produce. Wherever an increased supply of coal is brought, the benefit to the population is great, by the better provision of fuel, and by the establishment of such homo manufactures as before were kept away by the inability to produce at such low rates as to suit
58
the markets and to compete with other wares. Where there is a want of mill-power by water, cheap coal will enable steam-power to be applied, and here again the opportunity is afforded for now branches of manufacture to be established. In those districts of Scotland where fuel is cheap, the steam-engine is employed, with advantage, to drive the thrashing machine, to pound bones, cut chaff, raise water, grind corn, and turn many of the farm machines. Coals at 30 s, 35 s., and 40 s. a ton, afford but poor encouragement to the energetic agriculturist to resort to additional machinery. As the consumption of coal extends, the agriculturist also profits by the supply of ashes as manure, and of breeze or small coal at a cheap rate for burning bricks on the London plan."
With regard to the pecuniary result to Ireland from saving in the supply of fuel by railway, it is impossible to estimate it, because Ireland is now insufficiently sup-plied with fuel. Fuel could, however, be carried a hundred miles in Ireland for 8s. 4d. per ton, or 1d. per ton per mile; whereas now it cannot be carried more than twenty-five or thirty miles for 8s. 4d.; and thus the local collieries of Kilkenny and Leitrim are rendered less beneficial, while the sup-ply of sea-coal is likewise restricted. It will, however, be allowed by the most prejudiced opponent, that advantages to the extent at least of 1,000,000 l. per annum could be afforded to Ireland in the supply of coal and other fuel. There are three groups of copper mines, the yield of which was at; 10,000 tons yearly. This might be doubled, as was the produce of the Cornish mines in the last twenty years—2,000 tons of lead ore, 100,000 tons of iron pyrites, besides immense quantities of slates, marbles, &c., were annually raised. Great and inexhaustible as was the supply of fish on the western coast, it was, for want of a market, unworked. The Government, by bounties, endeavoured to encourage these fisheries, but they left the main point undone, which was, to make a market. This can alone be done by extending the railways to the coast. The western fisheries have been untouched since the days of Charles the Second, when the Dutch paid; 5,000 l. a year for liberty to fish them. There are not above 60,000 persons employed in the fisheries throughout the whole of Ireland. In the zenith of her prosperity, 450,000 persons in Holland received direct employment from the fisheries—one in five of her population. In Ireland but one in 136 is so employed. The increase in the consumption of fish in England since the introduction of railways was very remarkable. The quantity carried inland had from nothing come up to 30,000 tons; in Birmingham, the consumption of

59
fish in 1827 was 370 tons; last year it was over 6,000 tons.
To the trade of Ireland a railway system would do much good; for while the natural resources of Ireland already attract capitalists, good and cheap means of conveyance would do more. Besides the great staple of the linen manufacture carried on in the north, the manufacture of lace, embroidery, and other branches of industry, have been introduced into the west, where female labour can be had cheaply; any employment of this kind would, therefore, be a great relief to Ireland.
In 1839 there were in Ireland twenty-five cotton mills employing 4,622 persons, thirty-eight woollen mills employing 1,231 persons, and forty-four flax mills employing 9,017 persons. The flax crop in 1844 was estimated at 39,000 tons, worth 2,000,000 l., and the value of linen yarn exported to foreign countries was 172,602 l According to the population returns in 1841, the number of spinners was 485,878, and of weavers 117,847.
It is scarcely necessary to point out how valuable railway communication must be for Government purposes, whether in the conveyance of mails, or in economising the expenditure of police and military, by enabling a smaller force to be employed. It is to be further observed, that it will greatly increase the Government revenues by developing the resources of the country, and stimulating the consumption of articles which contribute to the customs, excise, and stamps.
The completion of the Irish railways will be of vast benefit to the trade and commerce of England; it will facilitate her communication with the western world. The passage from Galway to Halifax will be made in 5½ days; the dangerous navigation of the Channel will be avoided by her merchant ships. The average loss to England from shipwrecks in the Channel is estimated at 2,000,000 l a year; out of 400 vessels, which is about the average number of those lost, 300 are lost in the Channel. England now requires 3,000,000 quarters of corn more than she grows. Ireland, if you give such facilities of transport as will render agriculture remunerative, can supply 10,000,000 quarters more than she now does—a subject of vital importance to this country if, through war or political jealousy, the Continental ports from which she now draws her supplies should be closed against her. The united kingdom will benefit by the reduction of
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expenditure as well as by the increase of revenue. Mr. Stanley shows that if the condition of the people of Ireland was raised to that of the people of England, there would be an increase in the excise alone of 6,000,000 l. a year. From the changes effected by the introduction of steam vessels into naval warfare, should unfortunately any difference take place between this country and Prance, the merchant vessels of England, no matter how numerous her men-of-war might be, dare not attempt to pass through the Channel; small steamers, drawing a few inches of water, with one gun, darting out from the creeks on the French coast, would cut them off; complete the Irish railways, and a couple of steam frigates lying off Berehaven would secure the commerce of England from the French privateers. Government had but to adopt his proposal to secure its success. The House was ready and anxious to support any measure which was really for the advantage of Ireland. If they had not hitherto done so, it was because Government had not asked them to do so. The able and enlightened statesman at the head of affairs in Ireland had pledged himself to do all in his power to secure to that country the advantage of railway communication. He felt, in the words of Mr. Drummond—
"That it was a waste of the public available resources to suffer so large a portion of the empire to lie fallow, or to leave it to struggle by slow advances and with defective means towards its own improvement, when the judicious aid of the State might quickly make it a source of common strength and advantage."
They had now an opportunity of laying a foundation on which the structure of Ireland's future prosperity could be securely raised. The policy of doing so was unquestionable. It was acknowledged to be necessary in the colonies, and how much more so in an integral part of the united kingdom, where neither the land nor the population can continue to be useless without being hurtful at the same time and in the same degree. The wealth of London was ready to pour into the distressed districts of Ireland if encouraged to do so; and great would be the responsibility of Government if their remissness or contracted views should leave Ireland to drift, as she now was doing, to destruction.
MR. GOULBURNsaid, he should take that opportunity of making a few observations on the question involved in the vote which they were asked to sanction, because

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he could not but think the subject was one of very great importance, and one that was pregnant of consequences to the country. He should not follow the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down into the question which he discussed as to the probable advantages likely to accrue to the country from the completion of certain railways. He thought that great benefit must result to any country which was in a condition to require extraordinary or ordinary means of conveyance, and which possessed a traffic in heavy goods in quantities to be conveyed. But although it was not his intention to follow the hon. Gentleman, he begged to call the attention of the House to this, that the speech he had made was perfectly appropriate to the subject before them. It showed the House what they were to expect as the ultimate results of this proposed advance. They were relieving one particular district by the line of railway which it was intended to construct; but they must remember, if they meant to benefit Ireland, they must extend the principle on which they had entered; they must carry out the system, and have all those lines completed at the expense of the Government, which were mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, and which he set down at a cost of 2,500,000 l., being-four or five times the amount for which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had asked. This, then, was the proper time for the House to consider whether they were prepared to enter upon this principle of voting assistance—whether, in the present state of the revenue, they believed that they should have resources sufficient to meet the advances required of them, not only in the present but in future years; for they were bound now to consider whether they were prepared to carry the principle further than the present vote before they adopted it at all, and to consider whether the money so advanced for the construction of railways might not be applied to a better purpose. He recollected that a similar proposal to this was made on a former occasion by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he proposed to advance to the Cork and Limerick line a sum of 600,000 l.—a line in the south of Ireland. He (Mr. Goulburn) at that time called the attention of the House to the difficulties involved in making such a grant, and he particularly stated to the House that if the grants were made, the calls they should have upon the public treasury would be so many, that the
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right hon. Gentleman would be quite unable to meet them. They saw now that the prophecy he then made was so far made good that the right hon. Gentleman was compelled again to come to the House for another vote of 500,000 l.; and let them believe him, the time was not far distant when the House would be called on to meet the expectations of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Roscommon, and to show cause why they were not prepared to complete the railroads he had mentioned. He (Mr. Goulburn) could well understand the principle of this application to Parliament, if the Government had taken the whole making and management of the railways into their own hands. A proposition to that effect was made when Lord Morpeth was Secretary for Ireland. That proposition was not adopted by the House; and now, let him ask, what were the consequences that followed? Why, it led to this—that the capitalists of England immediately did embark their money in the making of railways in Ireland; and they had at this moment railways formed by private capital, three-fourths of which belong to Englishmen, and one-fourth to Irishmen; they had that accomplished by private enterprise which the House had refused to sanction as a work to be undertaken by the Government. Now, then, they were again asked to make an advance to particular railways, and that was the ground of his objection to it. As he had stated, he could understand a principle that led Government to take up a general system, which, without conferring favour upon any one particular district, would equally benefit all the districts of the country. But if they sanctioned advances to special cases, and if they could induce the belief that, by having the merits of particular districts ably represented by friends to the Government, with some little pressure upon the Treasury, they could obtain that assistance which was denied to other railways, the effect would be, conviction produced on the public generally of partiality in the Government, and of favour for particular districts of the country. But, said the hon. Gentleman the Member for Roscommon, the scheme would open up a great extent of country now suffering from distress. Well, he (Mr. Goulburn) put out of consideration altogether the relief which would be contributed to the existing distress in Ireland; for the right hon. Gentleman proposed that this money should be advanced gradually in the course of the

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next two years; so that, although the existing distress had boon brought forward as an argument for advancing this sum of 500,000 l., it could have no effect whatever towards relieving the present distress, for before it could be advanced, the next potato harvest must he gathered, and, whether scanty or abundant, the character of that harvest was only a question that could affect the future. The question, therefore, before the House was, whether, upon individual cases, they were prepared to sanction advances from the public treasury? Now, at what were they proposing to make the advance? They proposed to give this money at 3½ per cent—a rate of interest at which the best railways in the country could not obtain money; and yet other railways in Ireland which had been made by private enterprise were called upon to compete with lines formed by money advanced by Government on terms so advantageous. This was a railway intended to go through a great part of the county of Galway. He asked them whether this was a line at all likely to be productive, and to repay the loan about to be advanced? He confessed that when he heard the right hon. Gentleman, he was almost convinced he was listening to the auctioneer for the sale of Mr. Martin's estate; for he proceeded to tell them that they were to make a railway through Mr. Martin's estate—[The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: No, no!]—that the estate would then be conveyed for sale to the most advantageous market—and he ended by assuring the future fortunate purchaser that his bargain would turn out almost another California. But he (Mr. Goulburn) entertained some doubt whether railways in a country not ripe for the reception of them, would prove so remunerative as the right hon. Gentleman seemed to expect. He did not know that Galway stood in need of railways. He recollected that in a former year Government was directed to make public roads through that country, and these were made at a considerable expense, and much to the benefit of the country; but whether railways were required by the traffic and condition of the country, was a question on which the House, he thought, would require some more evidence than they possessed, before they sanctioned the making of them. The right hon. Gentleman had told the House of the carriage of fish as an article likely to employ the railway; but would he tell them to what extent the carriage of fish had already gone
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on the railway which they had opened in a previous year? for he considered that the port of Limerick was as likely to be available for fish as any of those on the ocean. He said the Shannon fishery was as likely to be productive as those carried on upon the coast of Galway. At all events, they were bound to estimate that of which they knew nothing, by that which they did know—the Shannon fishery. Well, but the important question before the House was, whether they were prepared to extend the principle further than the present vote, and to repeat the same sum of money the next and the following year for the assistance of Irish railways. He was sorry that the course he was now adopting might seem like a want of feeling for the distress of Ireland; but he was sure that no such accusation could be made either against himself or the House. That, however, was not the question before them. He said, in calling the attention of the House to the difficulties in which the House was placed by the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, he was only anxious to impress upon them the consequences of the course upon which they were entering; that although the system of advances from the Consolidated Fund by way of loan was an easy way of expending the public money, unless they would look after the loans thus made, and be quite sure, before making them, of the probability of their being repaid to the country, they would involve the country in difficulties which it would be impossible to reduce, without imposing upon the people burdens which they might be unwilling to bear when the period arrived, and which, perhaps, it was not right should be borne by the public. On that account he had thought it his duty to call the attention of the House to the caution with which they should ever think of advances such as were now proposed.
MR. HUMEsaid, as a general rule, he had been accustomed to look upon all advances by Government with jealousy, but on this occasion the vote had his entire approval. He understood that this advance was to be made by Exchequer Commissioners, and was made not for the purpose of giving the Government the entire management of the railway, but to assist a company in completing a line, in the making of which they had already expended 800,000 l., having opened fifty miles of the railway. Their returns were about 1,000 l. a week, nearly the amount which they originally estimated. The completion of the

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line was likely to be of the greatest advantage to the country; it would open up an extensive district to the markets of the north, and the line was in all probability one that would be remunerative; it would also give employment to labour and induce regular habits of industry. The company were to advance 300,000 l. more than they had already paid up, and 500,000 l. was proposed from the Government in order to complete the railway. He considered that this case was exceptional, and if it could be shown that the credit of the country could be safely given, it ought to obtain it. For security, they were not merely to have the line already made, but in case the returns were not sufficient to cover the liabilities, they could fall back upon the baronies along the line, which they held as au additional security. They besides advanced the money by instalments of 100,000 l., each of which must have been laid out in effective works before another was advanced to the company. He was disposed, therefore, to say that the 2,000,000 l. already advanced for the same purpose in Ireland, had been applied to a good and proper end. But when Lord Morpeth introduced his measure with regard to Irish railways, his objection to that Bill was, that it proposed giving to Government the entire management and control of the whole system of railways in Ireland. He begged the House to consider at what moment they were now making this advance. When the company began the line, they were paying 14 l. or 15 l. per ton for the iron, but now they might complete the line at 4l. or 5l. a ton, so that at this lower rate they were conferring a lasting benefit upon the country. As the means of employment for the labouring poor, and as a proper measure to be taken in the present state of Ireland, he should give the vote his support.
Mr. ORMSBY GOREconcurred with the hon. Member for Montrose in the view which that hon. Gentleman had taken of the subject. With regard to what had fallen from the right hon. Member for Cambridge University, he begged to say, that the railway did not pass through Mr. Martin's property; it went through the best and most productive part of the county of Galway, as fine a district for a railway as any in the empire. Again, the right hon. Gentleman spoke of a competing railway; but there was nothing of the sort. There was not a railway in the whole province of Connaught, and this would pass through the very contre of that province,
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in fact, through the heart of Ireland. Taking it from its source, from Dublin to-Galway, it cut the country exactly in two; and hereafter branch lines might be struck out from the main trunk with immense advantage. The railway which the right hon. Gentleman referred to ran parallel with the coast. This ran directly across the country, from sea to sea, and was the most valuable line that could be established in Ireland. It was a railway that must command a considerable amount of traffic. There was no sort of danger of its not being amply remunerative, and he should imagine that the security would be quite sufficient to satisfy the Government. He begged cave, therefore, to return his sincere thanks to Her Majesty's Government for this measure in favour of Ireland. This was the sort of legislation that they wanted there. They wanted the encouragement of industry in that country. They wanted legislation that would secure employment to the population. They wanted to encourage in the minds of the lower order of the Irish those industrious habits which, he regretted to say, now prevailed in only a small part of that country. He did not like any of the other measures that had been carried out, because they had not had this object in view. For instance, he looked upon the poor-law, oven amended as it was, as a bonus upon idleness. He spoke as the owner of property in five different counties of Ireland; and be anxiously desired that the industry of the people should be encouraged, and that they who had hitherto been satisfied to rely upon the potato for subsistence, whilst they idled away the rest of their time, should be taught to put forth their energies, and exercise their honest industry for the purpose of elevating themselves in the scale of social existence. They must recollect that here, in England, they had substantial farmers with large capital, and farms of from 500 to 1,000 acres, and that in consequence of the employment of the labourers upon those farms, this country did not suffer the distress that was experienced in Ireland. There, in many parts, they had nothing of the kind, but a cottier tenantry who lived merely from hand to mouth, and had no stimulus to industry. It was that stimulus which was required, and he implored the Government therefore to persist in that course of legislation, of which he hoped this was but the commencement.
MR. ROEBUCKsaid, although the hon. Member for Montrose was, with him,

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a great authority on these subjects, he was sorry to say that upon the present occasion he felt obliged reluctantly to differ from him. He felt obliged to look at his own country—he felt bound to consider the position of England as well as of Ireland; and when the hon. Member who had just sat down—an Irish landlord, holding land in five counties—said this was just the sort of legislation he would like, he (Mr. Roebuck) could very well understand that statement, coupled as it was with a denunciation of the Irish Poor Law, and with other measures which had been recently passed, obliging Ireland to support her own poor. The feeling of dislike to the rate in aid, and the poor-law, on the part of the hon. Gentleman, was the result of the state of mind which approved of this advance or loan. But he (Mr. Roebuck) had to look at another part of the question. How was the money to be obtained?—where would it come from? And if from the hard earnings of the people of this country, were they able to endure it? What were they going to do? With a failing exchequer—with a revenue unequal to the expenditure, they were about to advance money to Ireland. He well remembered the manner in which the Chancellor of the Exchequer combated the proposal of the late Lord George Bentinck, It was very seldom he quoted Hansard, but he thought it was most appropriate on the present ocaasion. What did the right hon. Gentleman then say?
"I do not like to see the State become a lender. If the parties have good security to offer, and if the speculation be a fair speculation, I have never known any difficulty in obtaining loans from private individuals."
Now, he wanted to know what it was that had changed the mind of the right hon. Gentleman since that period—or what had rendered the position he then laid down less valid or applicable. In 1847, Lord George Bentinck proposed to the House a general scheme of railways in Ireland. Had he (Mr. Roebuck) wished to accept of any plan of money-lending, he would have accepted that plan. But here was a case less plausible which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to promote, although he vehemently opposed that project. His hon. Friend the Member for Montrose said the prospect was excellent, that the traffic would be good, that the security would be unexceptionable, and that there was no doubt of the return of the money. But were not all these circumstances
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calculated to induce private individuals to make the loan? and if they would make the advances, why should the State become a lender? But if a private lender could not be found, then, as there was abundance of capital in this country, it followed that such a state of circumstances did not exist, and therefore the Government ought not to incur the risk of non-payment. One of two things must be—either there was ample security and no risk, or the security was insufficient. In the former case the Chancellor of the Exchequer was wrong, according to his doctrine, as had been quoted—in the latter the Government was not justified, in the present state of the public finances, in making the loan. What was the condition of England? Was it not notorious that in almost every union in England the poor-rates had been increased? In Scotland the poor-rates had increased to a fearful extent. The poor-rate in Scotland had been, a few years ago, only 40,000 l.; last year they were 500,000 l.; and this year it was believed they would amount to 600,000 l. Never before was there so heavy a poor-rate in Scotland; Such was the state of things in hardworking, industrious Scotland. And what were they going to lend this money for? The hon. Member for Salop said they were going to lend it to teach the people to be industrious; but the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had formerly stated that money lent for railroads did not go into the pockets of the suffering and destitute poor. It was dispensed among the able-bodied poor—amongst the skilled and not the starving labourers—not unlikely amongst labourers from England. Was the money to be expended in charity or was it not? Let the House understand that. It was the destitute and the suffering who most needed aid—it was the strong and ablebodied who would participate in this advance. If the money were to be expended in remunerative and well-secured labour, why then, as he said before, let the Irish railway directors borrow as others borrowed—if otherwise, and for charitable purposes, he grieved to say that his own overtaxed and heavily burdened countrymen could not afford it. He had no objection to the right hon. Gentleman raising the money amongst the Members of his own party; but on behalf of the hardworking artisan and the in-

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dustrious, overtaxed labourer of his own country he protested against this advance as most unjust—a loan which would burden them still more heavily, and the only purpose of which was to drive railroads through Ireland. It was all very well for an Irish landlord to say that this was just the kind of legislation he desired; but the English people, however charitable, must not quite forget the taxgatherer. The skilled artisan and the poor throughout this country would be called to pay increased taxes on account of this loan; and when he looked upon their sufferings and when he saw amongst every class of labourers, whether skilled or unskilled, considerable privation and fear and trembling lest things might become worse—when he saw that the expenditure of this country already exceeded the income, he did not think England ought to be called to aid a country which had not yet unfortunately aided itself.
MR. HUMEsaid, it was altogether a mistake to suppose that any additional taxation would be caused by this grant. The credit of the Government would be pledged to enable certain individuals who had advanced, or who would advance, 1,100,000 l. to raise other 500,000 l. at 3½ per cent, the interest being paid by them; and not a single shilling would be paid either by the artisans or anybody else in this country. Even should the railroad entirely fail, Government would have recourse to the baronies which had become security. Meantime 3½ percent would be paid on the money raised on the credit of the Government; and wherever the public money could be lent so as to open up new sources of traffic and industry, it ought to be done. When the proposed line was completed, the carriage of sheep from Galway to Dublin, now 3s. or 3s. 6d. a head, would be reduced to 8d. or 10 d. In every way, this appeared to him a measure which ought to be promoted.
MR. NEWDEGATEheartily rejoiced that the hon. Member for Montrose and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had at length found that the scheme of his noble and lamented Friend (Lord George Bentinck) was practicable, was applicable to the condition of Ireland, and would inflict no undue burden upon the resources of England. No one could say that England was now as prosperous as when his lamented Friend brought forward his plan; but when that plan was developed it was scouted
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as unsound in principle and impracticable in operation. Why, now, did the Chancellor of the Exchequer adopt its principle? Why, but that he at length was forced to recognise its soundness and utility. It was lamentable that the Government had not long ago yielded to those arguments of which they to-night silently confessed the truth and the force. Bitter experience had taught them the wisdom, the genius, and the high and generous feeling which had dictated that grand and statesmanlike scheme; and happy would it have been for the ill-fated country for whom it was intended if it had been then adopted and put in force. The Government only now saw what the foresight of his lamented Friend had long since sketched out. Why, the debate to which they had just been listening was but a travestie of the debate which occurred at the period to which he referred; and he could not help observing, whilst the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge spoke, that his speech was but an echo of that which the present Chancellor of the Exchequer used against the scheme of his noble and lamented Friend. The old arguments of insufficient security for the loan—that it would not he employed in the manner they wished—and that it was improper for the Government to join with private speculators in the formation of great public works, were all hashed up and served out anew. Experience had, however, taught the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the hon. Member for Montrose that such arguments were inapplicable to the condition of Ireland. He (Mr. Newdegate) had supported the proposition of his noble and lamented Friend. He felt then, as now, that if they would govern successfully a country in such difficulties as Ireland, they must assist in the employment of its labour and in the development of its resources. It was not enough to tell the suffering people to help themselves, and enunciate some of the dry principles of political economy. They had a right to demand and expect from the Legislature and Government that they would assist them in the hour of need, and that means would be afforded them to raise them from their difficulties. He had often before declared his opinion, and he again avowed it, that it was an erroneous and a fatal principle in a Government or Legislature to stand by inactive and indifferent whilst a portion of their fellow-subjects were endeavouring to struggle out of extraordinary difficulties and to contend

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against severe sufferings and privations. The first function of a Government was to assist the helpless, to succour the industrious, and to stimulate the inactive. He was rejoiced to see that the noble Lord at the head of the Government, who in 1846 declared that he accepted the measure proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth as a great scheme, involving as it did a principle then perfectly new—of fostering no interest, but leaving each to flourish or to fade as best it might—by this proposal declared that scheme to be impracticable. He had only once more to lament that the Government needed such bitter experience before this truth was brought home to their understanding, and he hoped they would have the good sense to reject those bastard notions of political economy before the ruin which their operation involved was more widely extended.
MR. ROEBUCK, in explanation, said, his argument was not against Irish landlords deriving benefit from this mischievous mode of proceeding. But he could very well understand the feeling of hon. Gentlemen who approved of one sort of legislation and not of another. As to what his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose said about this being a loan, and the security of Government, he (Mr. Roebuck) contended that if the name of the Government was necessary, the Government must incur some risk. If it were not necessary, what was to prevent private individuals from lending the money? The fact was that the Government lent the money because nobody else could be found to lend it. Why should they do so?
SIR H. W. BARRONhad an exact answer to the question. By a return lately laid upon the table of the House, the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield would find that no less a sum than 7,600,000 l. had been advanced by the State in England in speculative concerns. But the indignation of the hon. and learned Gentleman had not been in any way excited by those loans or advances. It was not a paltry sum of 500,000 l. or 600,000 l. to benefit a starving people that was advanced in the case of England, but millions—in England, too, where the capital was so abundant, and where, as the Times daily told them, people were seeking modes of investing money at a very low rate of interest. Upon referring to this return, he found that for the construction of canals, bridges, &c., 1,470,000 l. had been advanced, for railroads
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600,000 l, for building poorhouses, 1,900,000 l., for waterworks 70,000 l., and for the Thames tunnel 250,000 l.; and these loans and advances were made without the hon. and learned Gentleman saying—"I protest against the advances on behalf of the skilled labourer, on behalf of the artisans, and on behalf of the unskilled labourers of this country. They will have to pay this tax. They are already too heavily burdened." Where was the patriotism, where the economy of the hon. and learned Gentleman when those advances were asked for and made? Oh no! it was only when a loan was made at what might be called a usurious rate of interest that the bile of the hon. and learned Gentleman was excited. There was an anti-Irish feeling in his blood, in his mouth, and on his tongue; and the hon. and learned Member made these appeals for the purpose of increasing the prejudices and arousing the animosity of the English people. The English labourer or artisan would have nothing to pay; and if the hon. and learned Gentleman was really ignorant upon this subject, he would show him from the official returns that these loans had been previously made with a positive advantage to the Exchequer. [Alaugh.] Yes, he repeated, with an advantage; for whereas the Government borrowed the money at three per cent, they lent at three and a half per cent, upon the most unexceptionable security. The hon. Baronet then quoted various instances where monies had been advanced in loans, for Irish purposes, and punctually repaid, with interest, and at a profit to the Exchequer; and quoted the opinion of Government officials as to the good which had accrued, and which was likely to accrue, from such advances if well directed. He concluded by expressing his earnest and hearty approval of the Government proposition.
MR. O'FLAHERTYwas sure that if the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield had travelled through the distressed unions of Ireland, or if he credited the testimony of those who had seen them as to the misery existing there, he would cordially support this measure. He assured the House that no proposition ever introduced to their attention was of more consequence to the people than this; and the Government deserved the best thanks of the country for it. It would contribute to induce capitalists to invest in the country, and render most assistance to the operation of the Incumbered Estates Act. He hoped English Members would consent to look at this

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question upon a broad scale, for they were greatly interested in it; but at the same time he assured the hon. Member for Roscommon that not one of his constituents would coincide with him.
SIR T. D. ACLANDsaid, he had opposed the proposition of his late noble and lamented Friend for an advance of sixteen millions to assist Irish railways, because he thought it too large and unmanageable. But in the same year he supported a smaller advance for a similar purpose, because it was for a definite object—for an object as to which there were clear and distinct plans; and it was precisely because those conditions were fulfilled in the present case that he should support the proposition of his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Englishmen could not be better employed than in lending a helping baud to the sister country; and though be had not, like the hon. Gentleman the Member for Shropshire, property in five Irish counties, or even in one, he felt the interests of the two countries were so much identified, that they should be treated in that House exactly alike. The benefit to be derived from this loan would not stop at Mullingar, at Galway, or at Dublin. It would extend to Liverpool and to London; for improvements in the moans of communication were not limited to the locality where they were effected. He hoped the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield would not be displeased with him, if he added, that if similar propositions were made to extend railway communication from Gal-way to Cork, Limerick, Belfast, and Derry, he should not oppose them. With the view, however, of putting an end to all doubt as to the security, he would put one question to his right hon. Friend. It was, whether there was one shilling due that had not been punctually paid upon the railway advances of 1847? If, as he apprehended, such was the case, notwithstanding the existence of very severe distress among all classes, it was idle to talk of risk. If the payments had been punctually made, how could the House say, upon the first occasion that presented it-Self, "We know you have fulfilled your engagements, but we will not trust you again?" Let the House trust them again, and he would answer for it the money would be repaid. Act liberally and kindly towards them; that was the road to the Irishman's heart.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, if he had entertained any
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doubt as to the success of the proposal he had made, it would have been removed; by the eloquent speech of his hon. Friend, He had risen, however, to say he could bear the most satisfactory testimony to the fact that every sixpence of interest due from railways in Ireland had been punctually paid.
Mr. PETOsupported the proposition, and begged the Government to accept his thanks for it, being convinced that it would prove of infinite benefit to Ireland. He begged to inform the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield that it would be altogether unnecessary to carry railway labourers from England to Ireland, for some of the best "navvies" employed in this country were Irishmen; and they were remarkable for their industry, temperance, and constant application to work. Irish labour needed development. Looking at the superior advantages of locomotion presented by railways, he hoped this would be only the beginning on the part of Her Majesty's Government of similar pledges of credit, where, having been well considered, they could be safely bestowed.
Mr. FREWENknew the country exceedingly well through which the railway was intended to pass, and he thought the estimate of the expense between Athlone and Galway an exceedingly safe one. He considered that the estimate of 500,000 l. for the making of the railway was exceedingly large. He thought that 450,000 l. would have been a sufficient estimate. The Great Southern and Western line cost only 12,000 l. a mile; and, as land and labour were less valuable in Con-naught than in Leinster, it was reasonable to suppose that the present line would not cost so much per mile. His impression was, that there would be a much larger amount of traffic than hon. Members seemed to expect—even those who were acquainted with the country. The wages paid for labour upon the works would be of great service in the locality; for he assured the House that the correspondence he had received that morning represented the distress as most appalling.
SIR L. O'BRIENhoped the House would consider the present Motion as not involving any question between England and Ireland, but rather regard the whole proceeding as a sending out of capital from the centre to a remote part of the empire; it was a spreading of concentrated capital over the kingdom. He claimed, however for those parts, their proper share in the benefits of enterprise and industry. A fa-

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mine had fallen upon the land; and, had it not been for that visitation of Providence on the western counties of Ireland, they would have exhibited as much industry, as much cultivation, and as many resident gentlemen setting an example to their tenantry as might be seen in any other part of the British empire. If the House were pleased to express kindly feelings, the people of Ireland accepted them; but they wished for no aid except upon grounds that hon. Members could fully justify before their constituents. He was happy to hear from many hon. Members, that they could do so in the conscientious discharge of their duty towards those who had elected them.
MR. H. A. HERBERTsaid, after the account of the punctual payment of interest upon loans to railway companies, he would call the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Government to a memorial he had the honour to present to him lately. If the manner in which the present proposition had been received by the House, should encourage him to take the prayer of that memorial into consideration, he would confer a benefit upon a part of the country where it would be received with thankfulness.
Resolution agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that by the next resolution he should propose a further advance of money, in addition to that which the House had, upon a former occasion, sanctioned, for the relief of distress in the western unions of Ireland, to be secured upon the rate in aid. He had stated, upon a former occasion, that the demands for assistance would necessarily increase as the summer advanced, and that for the three months preceding the harvest they would extend. But destitution had increased in the west to such an extent that a larger sum than the 100,000 l. already voted had been advanced. The difference between the 100,000 l. already voted and the sum advanced, had been obtained by issues from the civil contingencies. Up to about the beginning of June, the issues did not exceed more than 10,000 l. per week; but now the weekly demand was 15,000 l., and he did not suppose it could be less until a considerable portion of the early crops, which he was happy to say were exceedingly good in many parts of Ireland, could be brought to market. The sum advanced in the first instance was 50,000 l. That was before the passing of the Act. Since that, 124,000 l. had been advanced, making
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altogether nearly 175,000 l.; and this morning he had directed a further issue of 15,000 l., being an aggregate advance of about 190,000 l. The sum he now proposed to ask the House for was 150,000 l., in order to cover all contingencies. This was merely for the relief of distress; and though 130,000 l. might possibly be enough, he did not think, under the circumstances, that it would be safe to take a vote for a less sum than 150,000?. He should therefore ask the House to sanction that advance. He had intended to ask for authority to readvance any portions of the sums repaid of workhouse loans for the construction of new workhouses, but he would propose another Committee with that view; and he only mentioned the subject to show that it had not escaped the attention of the Government.
Res. 2. "That the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury be authorised to direct Advances to be made out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland of any sum not exceeding 150,000 l., for affording Relief to certain distressed Poor Law Unions in Ireland, the same to be charged on any Rate to be levied in each Union in Ireland, under an Act of the present Session, for a General Rate in Aid of certain distressed Unions and Electoral Divisions in Ireland."
MR. STAFFORDasked the right hon. Gentleman whether he would lay upon the table a list of the unions which had been assisted; also, whether the Government would make the repayment of workhouse loans more stringent than they had been; and whether they were prepared to enter into further details with regard to the new workhouses?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he could at once state the unions to which advances were made. There were twenty-three, and among them were Ballina, Ballinrobe, Bandon, Castlereagh, Castlebar, Carrick-on-Shannon, Innistimon, Ennis, Dingle, and Westport. The amount expended in these unions for the relief of distress in the week before last was 14,934 l.; the estimate for the last week was 15,059 l.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSasked how far the collection of rates had been proceeded with in those unions? Had payment been enforced?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the collection had been enforced to the utmost practical extent in all the distressed unions. He could assure his hon. Friend there was no slackness in that respect.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolutions to be reported To morrow. House resumed.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Bill read a Third Time.
MR. J. O'CONNELL MR. J. O'CONNELL moved the insertion of a clause relating to the appointment of chaplains to workhouses. His object was to provide that the person appointed as Catholic chaplain to a workhouse should be a Catholic priest, and have the attestation of his bishop as to his fitness for the office. He supposed that the Irish Members opposite would not object to have the same rule applied to the chaplains of their persuasion, but, if they had, he was willing to alter the clause so as to make it applicable to Catholics only. It happened unfortunately that a very serious difference had recently arisen between a Catholic archbishop and the Poor Law Commissioners of Ireland, which rendered it necessary that such a clause as the present should be introduced; but he did not rest his case on that circumstance alone, as he thought the want of a clause to this effect a serious omission in the poor-law. He thought the commissioners could not have a better guarantee for the fitness of a chaplain than the sanction of his bishop. In the case to which he had alluded—that of the Catholic chaplain to the Tuam workhouse—a case had arisen during the absence of the archbishop which the commissioners required the chaplain to account for. The chaplain admitted that he was answerable to the commissioners on all civil matters; but as the case in question was one of a purely religious nature, he declined to enter into any explanation, except to his ordinary. The commissioners then dismissed him, and called on the archbishop to express his concurrence by recommending another chaplain. The archbishop refused to do so without investigating the case, and the commissioners then sent an emissary among the clergy of the archdiocese in order to try to find a person who would accept the office, in defiance of the archbishop. The case gave rise to great inconvenience, because the archbishop—bound by a solemn oath to discharge the duties confided to him—could not give way. He wished to confine the authority of the ordinary to strictly religious matters; and if there were any authority in the Presbyterian Church to which their clergy yielded obedience, he would be happy to introduce words that would include Presbyterian chaplains also. The offect of the law, as it now stood, was to
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make the commissioners a pope and council; and, what was worse, the chief commissioner was made pope for a religion to which he did not belong. He would ask, why should two Protestant commissioners have authority to decide in religious matters affecting Catholics? or why should the third commissioner, who was a Catholic, have a similar power with regard to Protestant chaplains? He submitted the clause for the approbation of the House, with a view to facilitate the working of the poor-law, as well as on the grounds of common sense and common fairness.
Clause brought up and read a First Time.
SIR W. SOMERVILLEhoped the House would not be induced to consent to the introduction of the clause, which would not have the effect of facilitating the operation of the Irish Poor Law. If there were one thing upon which the guardians were more jealous than another, it was the appointment and control of their officers, and although it was true the chaplains were appointed by the commissioners, and not by the guardians, still the greatest care had been taken to keep these appointments independent of the bishops. He doubted very much whether the clause, as it was at present worded, would apply to Catholic clergymen at all. He knew, however, that especial care was taken by the Poor Law Commissioners to consult, as far as possible, and in a respectful manner, the wishes of the Roman Catholic bishops or archbishops, who were the ecclesiastical superiors of the clergy about to be appointed. But, if this were carried further, there would be two distinct authorities in every workhouse in Ireland. The Poor Law Commissioners had laid down certain rules respecting the performance of the duties of chaplains, and the clergy must submit to some authority—that proper authority clearly being the commissioners. The hon. Member had alluded to a case in the Tuam workhouse, and had, on a previous occasion, moved for the papers connected therewith; but the hon. Member had not moved, as he (Sir W. Somerville) wished he had, that those papers should be printed. In that case, as in others, the Poor Law Commissioners had not departed from their ordinary mode of proceeding. One of the Poor Law Commissioners (Mr. Redington) was a Catholic, and he would be the last man to do anything disrespectful to the Church of which he was a member.
MR. J. O'CONNELLsaid, his objection was not founded on the fact of two of

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the commissioners being Protestants. He should object to the interference of a lay Catholic as much as to that of a Protestant on any question affecting the Catholic religion.
MR. STAFFORDinquired who was to be the authority to decide what questions were "purely civil" if the clause were adopted? He was aware that there would have been great difficulties with regard to the conduct of chaplains in the part of Ireland with which he was connected, were it not that the Roman Catholics there were presided over by so estimable a man as Dr. Ryan. He begged to take the opportunity, while referring to this subject, to thank the noble Lord at the head of the Government for the excellent appointment which he had recently made to the see of Limerick.
MR. SCULLYwished to know if the commissioners claimed a power to remove a chaplain for carrying out his own religious views and those of his bishop?
SIR W. SOMERVILLEsaid, the commissioners had laid down certain rules for the guidance of the chaplains, and he considered that it was for the commissioners to decide whether these rules were neglected or otherwise.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELLhoped his hon. Friend would not press for a division, as the sense of the House was so clearly against him. He should be exceedingly sorry to give a vote apparently in opposition to the authorities of the Church to which he belonged, and to his hon. Friend; but still he should feel bound to vote against the latter part of the clause. There would be a great difficulty in drawing a line between civil and religious matters; as, for instance, the celebration of divine service was a purely religious question, and still, if a chaplain neglected that duty without cause, it was clearly a case in which the commissioners ought to interfere.
SIR H. W. BARRONalso hoped that the hon. Member would not divide, as the votes would be misunderstood in Ireland. He believed the word "ordinary" in the clause would not apply to Roman Catholic bishops. The House would not wish to leave the dismissal of the chaplains of workhouses in the hands of any bishops, whether Catholics or Protestants. He thought the present practice was found, upon the whole, to work conveniently. One case of dispute had indeed arisen in Tuam, but the House ought not to legislate for that single case. All that the House knew of that case was, that Dr. M'Hale had differed
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from the Poor Law Commissioners respecting the dismissal of a chaplain; but further than that the House knew nothing.
Motion made and Question put, "That the said Clause be now read a Second Time."
The House divided:—Ayes 3; Noes 74: Majority 71.
MR. GROGANthen moved a clause to enable justices of the peace, in cases where tenants of premises for a term not exceeding a month, at a rent not exceeding 1l. per month, hold over the premises after the term had ceased, or notice to quit had been served upon them, to order a constable to take possession of the premises; provided always that no such entry should be made on a Sunday, Good Friday, or Christmas-day, or at any time except between nine in the morning and four in the afternoon; and, also, that nothing therein contained should be deemed to protect any person by whom the warrant for taking possession should be sued out from any action which might be brought against him by any such tenant or occupier in respect of such entry and taking possession, where such person had not, at the time of suing, lawful right to the possession of the premises.
SIR L. O'BRIENsupported the clause.
Sir G. GREYsaid, that the clause was totally foreign to the purpose of the Bill; the clause was to facilitate ejectment in certain cases, and had nothing to do with the relief of the poor. If the clause was added, the title of the Bill ought to be altered.
Clause negatived without a division.
MR. GROGANthen moved a clause, which he contended was strictly within the purviews of the Bill, declaring that when a party in possession of more than a quarter of an acre of land applied for relief upon a certificate of the guardians to that effect, it should vitiate the tenure of his land.
SIR G. GREYcalled attention to the fact, that by the present law the poor-law guardians were prohibited from affording relief to any persons who were in the occupation of more than a quarter of an acre. To ask the guardians, therefore, to certify that they had given relief to persons in possession of more than a quarter of an acre, would be requiring from them a certificate that they had violated the law. That could not be expected of them, and therefore he must oppose the clause.
CAPTAIN JONESsupported the clause,

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because if some such provision were not adopted, the landlord could not cultivate the land which his tenant had deserted without being liable to be prosecuted for trespassing on the land.
MR. J. O'CONNELLopposed the clause as an attempt to make still more stringent the provisions of a law which was too severe already.
SIR H. W. BARRONsupported the clause, as he had known instances of laud being deserted by the occupiers who received relief, and when the landlords proceeded to cultivate the soil the same occupiers came forward to claim their land so cultivated, and said, here is our lease, and we have never been put legally out of possession.
MR. E. B. ROCHEwas certain that the clause would not keep a tenant to his surrender, as assumed by the hon. Baronet. The clause would enable the landlord to come in, and over-ride the lease if he were so minded.
MR. M. J. O'CONNELLsaid, his hon. Friends who had opposed the original clause saw the evils which that clause had produced, but they did not see the greater evils which that clause had prevented. He was satisfied that if an unlimited right to relief had been given, without requiring a surrender of land, the Consolidated Fund itself would not have satisfied the claims which would have been made. The doubts which had arisen respecting the working of the quarter-acre clause, as it was termed, had been brought before an eminent barrister, Mr. Henn, who gave it as his opinion that a legal surrender of the land was not necessary; that all that was required was cessation to occupy. But other doubts had since sprung up, and he thought it was the duty of the House now to clear them up. He hoped the Government would come forward and settle the law upon this subject.
MR. POULETT SCROPEsaid, this was a new ejectment clause. He thought the evil of the quarter-acre clause was that persons applying for relief were required to surrender the whole of the land they occupied, with the house they lived in: he did not think the operation of the law would be so much complained of if parties were only required to surrender the surplus of the land they held, and were allowed to retain their house and a quarter of an acre.
SIR L. O'BRIENsaid, that the language which had been used in that House upon the subject of Ireland by the hon. Member
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for Stroud, had done more to sow dissension in that country between landlord and tenant than anything else. He hoped Her Majesty's Ministers would grapple with the landlord and tenant question, for under the existing law ejectments were constantly taking place. There was in the sixth report of the Committee on the Irish Poor Law a passage bearing on the subject which was worthy of the consideration of the House and of the Government.
MR. SHARMAN CRAWFORDsaid, with regard to the dispute between the hon. Member for Clare and the hon. Member for Stroud, he must say that though the hon. Member for Stroud might sometimes be misinformed, there was generally a strong foundation for his facts. All the evidence that had been laid before the Committee of which he was a Member confirmed this fact, that the wretched condition of the peasantry in the west of Ireland was to be attributed to the couduct of the Irish landlords—to their exaction of largo rents, which had reduced the peasantry to the lowest description of food, and that in the smallest quantities.
SIR R. FERGUSONsaid, it was clear that the clause would not meet the circumstances of the case.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the said Clause be now brought up."
The House divided:—Ayes 23; Noes 97: Majority 74.
SIR A. B. BROOKE SIR A. B. BROOKE moved the insertion of a clause to alter the liability of lessors for rates in respect of tenements not exceeding the value of four pounds, to a value not exceeding two pounds. He was certain from his own experience that the present clause operated very injuriously, and gave much dissatisfaction. He thought the alteration he proposed would very much mitigate the mischief complained of—the extent of which might be conceived when he stated that the number of 4l. holdings in Ireland was 493,783. The valuation of 4l. was so far injurious as it prevented occupiers from endeavouring to raise the value of their land above the value of 4l., as they would, in such case, be liable to the poor-rates. He trusted that Government would take this most important matter into its favourable consideration.
Clause brought up and read a First Time.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the clause having been only that day printed, he had only just seen it. Now it appeared to him that it went much further than the

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hon. Gentleman had expressed an intention of doing, he having said that his object was merely to reduce the limitation from 4l to 2l. No doubt some hardship arose out of the 4l clause; but the hon. Gentleman's arguments tended rather to support a Motion for the repeal of the clause altogether than for its reduction in terms from 4l to 2l He could not assent to the hon. Gentleman's proposition.
Motion made, and Question, "That the said Clause he now read a Second Time," put, and negatived.
MR. NAPIERthen proposed a clause to alter the present deductions of poundage from tithe rent.
Clause brought up and read a First Time.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that there really was very great difficulty attending the subject. But it was not a new subject of consideration for the House. When the present existing Poor Law Amendment Act was passed in 1847, a proposition similar to that now made by the hon. and learned Gentleman was made. But, after considerable discussion, the House agreed, in preference, to adopt a proposition of his (Sir G. Grey's), to place the tithe-owners in Ireland upon precisely the same footing as they stood in England. A clause to that effect was agreed to, and it was even assented to by the right hon. Gentleman the Recorder of the city of Dublin, who then represented the University. But during the progress of the Bill through the House, after the clause had been seen in Ireland, the opinion of the clergy was collected, and they were decidedly against it. They preferred the law remaining as it stood, and the clause was accordingly withdrawn. So that it was upon the suggestion of the clergy themselves that the law upon that point remained unaltered. He (Sir G. Grey) was not prepared to say that the landlords did not in some cases obtain an unfair advantage under the law as it stood, but he did not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman's clause would cure the defect. He would be ready to attend to such a proposition as that which had been assented to by the hon. and learned Recorder of Dublin, namely, the placing of the tithe-owners in Ireland upon the same footing as those of England; but there were so many and so great objections to the clause proposed by the hon. and learned Gentleman that he could not assent to it.
MR. NAPIERcould not accept the offer of the right hon. Gentleman. From the
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evidence of most intelligent witnesses examined on this subject, it appeared that it would come to the same thing in result whether what was required to be done was effected, as proposed by the clergy, by a separate rating, or in the way proposed in his (Mr. Napier's) clause. The two sorts of tithe property in England and Ireland were very different, as regarded the subject before the House; and, in order to rate the clergy separately in Ireland, they must undo what was done by the Tithe Rent Charge Bill, and then they would have the old state of things brought back again which the clergy had given up twenty-five per cent of their property to get rid of. This was not a question between the clergy and the poor; and the clause he proposed would not make one 1l. of difference as to the amount of the poor-rate. He contended also that it would prevent many inconveniences to the landlord, in which opinion he was most completely borne out by the evidence taken before the Committee of the House of Lords, by whom this question was gone into very fully. The injustice of the Bill in this respect was so apparent, that it had even received the condemnation of many Roman Catholic proprietors. His proposition would render the law consistent with itself, and would prevent the Bill from making the Tithe Rent Charge Act a nullity. He therefore trusted that the House would permit the introduction of this clause.
MR. P. SCROPEsupported the clause, and thought the Irish landlords should vote for it, if they wished to do justice to the tenantry and the clergy.
SIR J. YOUNGdid not mean to say that the clergy had not some grievance to complain of; but it fell very far short of the half-rate which the hon. and learned Member wished to deduct. If, therefore, he pressed his Motion, he (Sir J. Young) should feel hound to vote against it.
MR. G. HAMILTONsaid, his hon. Friend the Member for Cavan had endeavoured to establish an analogy between the clergy and a landlord in occupation, and he had argued, that because the landlord in occupation pays the entire poundage, it is therefore just that the entire poundage of the poor-rate should be deducted from the clergyman or other owner of tithe rent-charge. But he (Mr. Hamilton) must maintain that no such analogy exists. He had always understood that the principle on which the constitution of poor-rate in Ireland was settled in the original poor-

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law, was that the tenant should pay one-half of the poor-rate poundage in respect of his profits as occupier; and, that the landlord should pay the other half—it being deducted by the tenant—in respect of his rent or advantage as owner. Obviously the owner of tithe rent-charge has none of the profits of an occupier; and, therefore, the analogy does not hold in that respect. Besides, none of the incidents of occupation belong to tithe rent-charge. The clergyman or tithe rent-charger has no advantage from the improved value of the land. He has no power of controlling the expenditure of the rates, or of keeping down pauperism; or, as a rent-charger, of giving employment. In none of these respects does any analogy exist between him and the landlord in occupation. It should also be remembered that he is rated on a gross, while the landlord in occupation is rated on a not and low valuation. He was glad, however, to find that his hon. Friend admitted that an injustice and hardship existed. He (Mr. Hamilton), on a former occasion, had given several instances of the immense injustice of the present system upon the incomes of the clergy. He would only trouble the House with one in addition, and he used it as an illustration of the system. He hold in his hand a statement of the particulars of a parish with a population of 1,231 members of the Established Church. The income of the clergyman was, from rent-charge, 104 l and glebe, 11 l. 3s., in the whole 115 l. 3s. From this there were necessary deductions in the shape of payments, which the incumbent was compelled to make. Instalment to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for advances made to his predecessor for building or repairing the glebe house—a charge on the benefice towards a perpetual curacy, and other items amounting to 35 l. 8s. 4d., leaving the incumbent's actual income at 79 l. 14 s. 8d. Now, what would the House suppose the deductions made by the landlord during the year 1848 on account of poor-rate on this 79 l. 14 s. 8d. to have been? It was no less than 71 l., leaving the incumbent of this populous parish with an income for his support out of his benefice of 8l. 14 s. 8d., being a sum not equal to the salary of his clerk or sexton, and making no allowance for cost of collection, schools, or charities. His (Mr. Hamilton's) Colleague had argued the question so ably that he did not think it necessary to trouble the House further. He would only say that if the clause should not be adopted, he trusted the Government
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would not allow a case of such admitted injustice to remain without redress, and that they would propose some other remedy.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSagreed that it was a hardship that this particular charge should be liable to a greater amount of rate than any other charge. If the hon. and learned Gentleman divided the House he would vote for the clause; but in case it were lost, he thought that they would do well to adopt the suggestion thrown out by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary.
MR. E. B. ROCHEremarked that it was the friends of the Church who were always ripping up this subject. With respect to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Mallow, be believed that that hon. Gentleman was a tithe-owner himself, and he thought that he was now very much in the position of a man becoming his own counsel. The hon. and learned Gentleman proposed to take from the shoulders of the Church the poor-rate, and to place the burden on other parties, the consequence of which would be a great increase in the liabilities of the landowner and occupier. There was no property so much exempt from taxation or from other liability as the Irish Church.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid a few words in explanation.
Motion made, and Question put, "That the said Clause be now read a Second Time."
The House divided:—Ayes 50; Noes 125: Majority 75.
On the Question that this Bill do pass,
MR. STAFFORDsaid the Bill was divided into two parts, the latter part coming strictly within the title which had been given to it, while the first part did not come within the title, being less calculated to amend the law than to introduce into it two new and vicious principles. Against the first clause of the Bill a majority of the Irish Members had recorded their strongest protest; and against the second clause a majority of two to one had also recorded their votes. Whatever there might be inhuman in the operation of the Bill, therefore, and however unjust and impolitic the second clause might be, for that inhumanity and injustice Irish Members were not responsible. He was not prepared to say that from the third clause to the end of the Bill considerable improvements had not boon introduced into the present poor-law; but he must say that the principle of the maximum rate had

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been entirely forgotten from the moment they had introduced the margin relating to the debts. How, after the sixpenny rate in aid, the Government advances, the outstanding debts, and the emigration rate, they could talk of a maximum rate, he did not understand. The hon. Member for Manchester had given them most valuable aid in Committee, but he bad never come forward to give them any assistance in the debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Tamworth, too—he who had early in the Session propounded a scheme so magnificent that none of them could understand it—he who so readily catched hold of the imagination of an imaginative people—who felt that there was an absolute necessity to introduce capital into Ireland, did not, by his presence in these debates, show that he had any conviction of the intimate connexion that subsisted between every clause of this Bill and the introduction of capital into Ireland. The right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon did the Irish Members the honour and himself the justice of bestowing his patient attention to the discussions in Committee on this question, and the Irish Members were much obliged to him for it. In order not to let the capitalist purchase land unawares, let them consider how under this Bill his property would be taxed. By the first clause there was a maximum rate of 5s., and he might possibly purchase under the delusive belief that that maximum would not be exceeded. Imagine him then to be called upon for an 8s. rate. "Why is this?" he asks. "I thought I was not to pay more than 5s.?" "Yes," is the answer, "but in Committee Parliament found it necessary to include the debts of the union, which require a rate of 2s. 6d. additional, and then there is a 6d. for a rate in aid, and that makes the 8s." But beyond this he will be called upon for 2s. 4d. rate for promoting emigration. "But," says the purchaser, "I don't want to send out emigrants." "No," is the reply, "but one-half of the electoral division have refused to pay their rates, and the board of guardians have therefore determined to send them out as emigrants, and you must pay a rate of 2s. 4d." Thus 10 s. 4d. for rates was arrived at. Of course the purchaser now thinks that he has arrived at the end of his liabilities; but not so. Another collector arrives and demands a rate of 2s. more in the pound. "What is this?" asks the purchaser. "Why," says the collector, "the maximum rate has been reached, and the Poor Law
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Commissioners have a right to collect 2s. in the pound, and they have accordingly imposed that rate upon you." Thus, instead of 5s. being the maximum rate, 12 s. 4d. would be the actual amount of the charge upon the land purchased by the English capitalist. The maximum was a mere delusion, and was used in the Bill as an engine for a union rate, and to enable the commissioners to levy a tax of 10 per cent upon the whole rateable property of Ireland. This was the justice of the Whig Ministry towards the property of Ireland; and, so far as the liberties of the country were concerned, the same Ministry had taken care of them by suspending the Habeas Corpus Act.
Mr. BRIGHTwished to say two or three words in reply to the hon. Member who had just sat down. He was obliged to plead guilty as to his absence while the measure was being discussed, and the chief reason why he had felt less disposed to take part in the discussions in the House was this—that, after having sat in the Committee, he was as much in the dark on the subject, if not more in the dark, than he was when the Committee commenced its sittings. If, then, he had voted on the various clauses, he must have voted in deference to authority on one side of the House or on the other; and under these circumstances he had not meddled with the Bill in the House. He had doubts so strong as to the propriety of a maximum rate, that had he been present he should certainly have voted against it, because the sum fixed by the Government was much smaller than in his opinion it was desirable to fix. If they were to have a poor-law on the principle of the one in England, then the principle of a maximum rate was a very hazardous one, and if tolerated at all it should be fixed so high that it would not be likely to be easily reached. He was willing, too, that it should be temporary in its duration, in order that it might not be made a precedent for the adoption of the same principle hereafter by other parts of the united kingdom. Had he been present, he would have voted with those who opposed the maximum rate. On the general question of the Bill itself, he was of opinion that the result would be nil, or next to nil, in Ireland. It would not remedy the complaints made relative to the poor-law; and indeed it was impossible by any shape of a poor-law whatever very materially to diminish the pressure which the pauperism existing in Ireland was bringing on the

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Irish proprietors. He thought the Irish proprietors in that House, instead of making pauperism bearable, which it never could be in Ireland, ought to look to the source whence it sprung, and to the measures which might remove it, for the feeling of the people only tended to destroy, and did not in any sensible degree stimulate, industry. Efforts should be made to withdraw from dependence on those who were employed, vast numbers of those who were unemployed. He confessed that he looked to other measures which had passed, and were passing, infinitely more for any advantage to Ireland, than he did to the present Bill. He should be glad if he were mistaken, and if the Bill made pauperism bearable by the complete emancipation of the soil; and he should vote in its favour, because there seemed to be nothing better to propose instead of it.
MR. H. A. HERBERThad one word to say to the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman he knew had paid great attention to the evidence; and he appealed to him, and challenged any other hon. Gentleman, to show one single sentence of the evidence in favour of the principle of a union rating. But English Members had forced upon Irish Members that principle of a union rating, though it had been admirably argued against by the English commissioner. It was a principle against which the most distinct evidence was given by Mr. Twisleton.
Bill passed.
The House adjourned at half-after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Consolidated Fund.
2a Inclosure Act (Extension of Powers).
Reported.—Silver Coinage; Mutiny and Desertion (India).
3a Loan Societies; Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction; Soap Duty Allowances; Assaults (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Norwich, Bradford, and other Places, that no Exception may be made respecting Grants in Aid of Education (Ireland).—By Lord Wharncliffe and Earl Nelson, from Yeovil and Eccleshall, against the Granting of any New Licenses to Beer Shops; and from Durham and Northumberland, that Measures may be adopted for the Prevention of Explosions in Coal Mines.—From Blandford, that Boards of Guardians may be Empowered to grant Superannuation Allowances to Poor Law Officers.—From Thetford, for Extending the Jurisdiction of County Courts.

PRISON DISCIPLINE.
LORD BROUGHAMbegged to call the attention of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lansdowne) to two additional Resolutions on the subject of prison discipline which he desired to lay before the House. The object of the first of these resolutions was to prevent contamination amongst untried prisoners, by having recourse to separate confinement; and the next was, to have more frequent gaol deliveries.
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The last-named object might, he considered, be effected by extending the jurisdiction of the county courts now established, by means whereof criminal justice might be there administered. He would then merely lay the Resolutions on the table, and, on a future occasion, he would call the attention of their Lordships to them.
House adjourned till To-morrow.