Sitting of 23 February 1849

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Offences (Ireland); Summary Convictions (Ireland); Protection of Justices (Ireland); Parliamentary Oaths.
2° Relief of Distress (Ireland); Vice Guardians of Unions (Ireland).
3° Consolidated Fund (8,000,000 l.); Commons Inclosure.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. William Brown, from David Boswell Reid, M.D., for Inquiry respecting the New Houses of Parliament.—By Mr. Sidney Herbert, from the Vicars of the Cathedral Church of Sarum, respecting Lay Clerks at Cathedral Churches.—By Mr. Bright, from the Inhabitants of Rawden, Yeadon, Guisely, and its Vicinity, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, for an Alteration of the Law respecting the Church of England Clergy.—By Mr. Broadley, from several Clergymen of the East Riding of Yorkshire, against any Alteration of the Marriage Law.—By Lord Claud Hamilton, from Members of the Loyal Tyrone Lodge of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, in favour of an Extension of the Benefit Societies Act.—By Colonel Lindsay, from Out-Pensioners of Chelsea Hospital, respecting Deductions from their Half Pay.—By Sir J. Young, from the Parish of Shircock, County of Cavan, for an Alteration of the Poor Law (Ireland).—By Lord Dudley Stuart, from Members of the Marylebone Literary and Scientific Institution, for Inquiry respecting Public Libraries.—By Mr. Alexander Hastie, from the Glasgow Emancipation Society, for the Suppression of the Slave Trade.—By Mr. Philip Bennet, from Merchants, and Others, of the Borough of Sudbury, for an Alteration of the Small Debts Act—By Mr. Parker, from the Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of Sheffield, for Referring War Disputes to Arbitration.

PRIVILEGE OF MEMBERS.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEwished to put a question as to the privileges of the House. He did not know what the custom might be as to Committees of the House; but he had always understood that these Committees were open to the attendance of Members of Parliament except during the time of division. There was a Committee (the Irish Poor Law Committee) in which many Members took a strong interest; and he understood that that Committee had come to a resolution to prevent the attendance of all Members of Parliament. This not being a Secret Committee, he asked whether such a course of proceeding was in conformity with the rules of Parliament?
MR. SPEAKER: According to the rules of the House, every hon. Member is privileged to attend in a Committee, unless the Committee is secret. The usual practice has been that, during the deliberations of the Committee, other hon. Members have left the room. There have been instances where hon. Members would not leave the room, and where, on the application of the Committee, the House granted a power to exclude hon. Members.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE: Am I to understand that they cannot turn me out of the room?
MR. SPEAKER: The Committee have no power to exclude the hon. Member, unless they have a definite power from the House.
MR. BRIGHTsaid, as no other Member of the Committee rose to explain the matter, perhaps he might say a few words. The hon. Member (Mr. B. Osborne) had not stated the facts quite accurately. So far, no evidence had been taken by the Committee. When the evidence came to be taken, it was agreed that any hon. Member might be present; but during the discussion of certain resolutions, and dividing upon them, it was considered that hon. Members had no right to be in the room. For himself, he could have wished that the rule had not been drawn so tightly, but he thought it right to state these facts, as the hon. Member had not stated them with perfect accuracy.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNE: I give the hon. Gentleman notice that to-morrow I shall attend the discussions of the Committee.
SIR JOHN YOUNGsaid, it was the invariable practice of hon. Gentlemen who were not Members of a Committee to absent themselves from the Committee-room while a deliberation or a division was taking place.
MR. SPEAKERsaid, the hon. Member was quite correct in his statement of the practice; but if hon. Members persisted in attending a Committee, there was no power to exclude them, unless by application to the House.
SIR J. PAKINGTON: The course taken this morning on the Irish Poor Law Committee is the only course which I have seen taken in every Select Committee of which I have been a Member.

POOR REMOVAL ACT.
CAPTAIN PECHELLbegged to ask the Commissioner of Poor Laws—" Whether
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in consequence of the recent decision in the Court of Queen's Bench having upset the opinion given by the law officers of the Crown upon the construction of the Poor Removal Act, it is intended to cancel the instructions, founded on that opinion, issued to the board of guardians on the 20th day of October, 1846; and whether provision will be made for the repayment to unions and parishes of the expenses incurred by them respectively, in the maintenance of poor belonging to other parishes, whose relief was withdrawn in consequence of those instructions? "The parish of Brighton had been put to an expense of more than 1,000 l. for maintaining paupers imposed upon them improperly.
MR. BAINES, in reply to the question which had been put to him, said that the facts which bore upon the question now before the House were these. Very soon after the passing of the Poor Removal Act, the 9th and 10th Victoria, c. 66, the Poor Law Commissioners received applications from the guardians of a great many unions for advice as to the construction of one particular provision of that Act. At that time no judicial decision had been pronounced on the subject. The Poor Law Commissioners did their best to furnish the most trustworthy advice to the guardians who so applied. They laid a case before gentlemen of the highest eminence—law officers of the Crown—and took their opinion on the subject. Having obtained that opinion, they forwarded it to the different hoards of guardians. Very recently, indeed, the Court of Queen's Bench had decided that the true construction of the provision of the Act was different from that which was put on it by the law officers of the Crown. What had been done to make the decision of the Queen's Bench known was this: the decision having been pronounced must he taken to constitute the law of the land, and the Poor Law Board had lost no time in making the parishes and unions acquainted with the fact. The attention of all had been called to the subject in the annual report of the Poor Law Commissioners, and there was on the point of being issued the official circular, which was addressed to all boards of guardians throughout the country, stating the decision of the Queen's Bench, and calling attention to the fact. They had also directed that they should be furnished with an abstract of the decision which the Queen's Bench had pronounced

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on this Act of Parliament. They had lost no time in communicating to the different parishes. With regard to the latter part of the hon. Gentleman's question, he was not aware of any authority by which the repayment of expenses could be made.
CAPTAIN PECHELLasked, whether it was intended to take into consideration the repayment of those expenses which had become serious in many cases?
MR. BAINES: Since the hon. Member had furnished notice of his Motion, the attention of the Poor Law Board had been directed to the subject, and they had come to the conclusion that they had no power in point of law to make any provision for repayment.

WAR IN THE PUNJAUB.
MR. G. THOMPSONbegged to ask the President of the Board of Control—" Whether, as Her Majesty's Ministers have deemed it their duty to lay before the House a blue book of 378 pages, relating to a rebellion in the island of Ceylon in July last, they do not consider it equally their duty to lay before the House the papers relating to the war in the Punjaub, described by Her Majesty in Her gracious Speech from the Throne as 'a rebellion,' which war has been going on since April, 1848, and has necessitated the calling of an army into the field of not less than 120,000 men, including camp followers, and involving an extraordinary expenditure of not less than five millions sterling a year."
SIR J. C. HOBHOUSEsaid, that the question which the hon. Gentleman had put to him, and which he intended to put to his noble Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, was one of those questions, he submitted to the House, which were couched in terms that entitled them to be called argumentative questions. He assumed certain things which were not the fact, and he grounded the questions upon them. If he had put the question in the common form, when would the papers be produced?—he (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) would not have had the least objection to give an answer. The hon. Gentleman asked why it was, when the Queen's Government presented a folio of 378 pages relating to a rebellion in the island of Ceylon, they did not present one equally large as to the affairs of the Punjaub. The answer was very simple. The affairs of Ceylon were over, and Government had thought it their duty to present those papers, that Parliament might
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form some opinion as to those matters. Then he went on to say that a war had been raging since April, 1848. It had not been going on since April, 1848. The commencement dated much later than the period which the hon. Gentleman mentioned. He then went on to state that there was an army now in the field of 120,000 men, including camp followers. He (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) knew nothing about camp followers; it might mean camels, and matters of that sort. He could assure the hon. Member that the force in the field did not amount to half that number. And then he was so good as to estimate the cost. How did he know that it cost five millions? It had never been the practice to ask the question in this form. If the hon. Member had simply asked the question when the papers would be produced, he (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) would have told him. Under all these circumstances, he would therefore be justified in giving no answer at all; but he had no objection to say that, following the precedent of the war in the Sutlej, the House would receive all the papers so soon as the wars were over, when he would be ready to furnish all the information that any hon. Member might require.
MR. G. THOMPSONgave notice, that he should on Monday next move, in reference to that part of the Queen's Speech informing Parliament that a war had broken out in the Punjaub, that an Address he presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to direct the Papers to be laid before the House without further delay, and then justify the statement he had made.
Subject dropped.

THE RAJAH OF SATTARA.
MR. HUMEasked whether any arrangements had been made for the family of the Rajah of Sattara? Sixteen months had now passed, and he was informed that not 1s. of money had been given. The family had been left in a state of beggary, contrary to the assurance given by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth.
SIR J. C. HOBHOUSEsaid, the reason why money had not been given to them was, that the widow of the Rajah refused to receive it until his adopted son should be recognised as his heir. It was offered by the Governor General, and it was refused on that ground.

DISTRESS (IRELAND)—INACCURATE RETURNS.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, in the absence

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of his right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland, he would ask a question, of which he had given the right hon. Gentleman verbal notice. It was in reference to the gross inaccuracies which characterised the returns in reference to Irish distress that were distributed to Members that morning. In one page there was a blunder of 5l., in another of 20 l., in another of 10 l.; in one the blunder was as high as 2,500 l, and in another page there was a sum in addition, from which appeared that 6d. and 0 made 4d. It was intolerable that to all the other difficulties connected with Irish distress there should be added this one of inaccuracy in the Government returns. He wished to ask whether the Government would lay before the House amended returns? And next, whether they would take good care that these inaccuracies should not happen again?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERasked for the papers, which Mr. Stafford handed to him. The right hon. Gentleman said, that in the book there were certain letters and statements; some were signed by the vice-guardians of the union, and some by the poor-law inspectors. But there was no document in it to which the name of the person who made it was not appended. So that if there were any errors they were not made by any officer of the Government, but by the persons who had made the communications to the officers of the Government. The hon. Gentleman said the papers furnished by the Government were inaccurate and false, and upon that assumption he wanted to know if the Government would present amended copies. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not prepared to admit such an assumption. He was not prepared to admit that the papers were either inaccurate or false; but if there were any errors in them, which were not errors of the printer, they were mistakes of the persons furnishing the returns, and not mistakes of the Government. But it would be for the hon. Gentleman to prove first his assertion there were inaccuracies in the papers, and he should give notice of his intention to do so.
MR. STAFFORDshould have no difficulty in proving his assertion. And he trusted that he should find no difficulty in convincing the Chancellor of the Exchequer that sixpence and nothing do not make fourpence.
Subject at an end.

PARLIAMENTARY OATHS BILL.
The House then resolved itself into Committee; Mr. BERNAL in the chair.
Motion made, and question proposed—
"That it is expedient to alter the Oaths required to be taken by the subjects of Her Majesty not professing the Roman Catholic Religion, as qualifications for sitting and voting in Parliament, and to make provision in respect of the said Oaths for the relief of Her Majesty's subjects professing the Jewish Religion."
MR. VERNON SMITHrose to move the Amendment of which he had given notice. He would not, in so doing, detain the House longer than merely whilst he stated his general opinion that there ought to be no difference made between Gentlemen who came to the table to be sworn, on account of difference of religious persuasion. He had no scruple whatsoever in voting for the admission of Jews to Parliament. Whether the question was one which attracted public attention or not, did not signify in the least degree. But he thought that when they were not confining themselves merely to the admission of Jews to Parliament, but were taking the opportunity of that question to alter and amend the oaths to be taken by Members generally, they should endeavour to make the improvement as complete as possible. He asked the House, therefore, whether it would not he better that they should set aside altogether oaths that were unnecessary? He had a strong objection to the multiplication of oaths; and he thought that by simplifying those taken by Members of Parliament, they would be doing good service to the public at large. He did not wish to cast any slur upon that House; but he should say when hon. Gentlemen talked about the solemnity of the act of hon. Members coming to take the oaths at that table amidst the buzz and conversation of the House, that he did not think any observer could consider it either a solemn or a decorous proceeding. The proposal of his noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) certainly simplified the oaths to a certain extent, but it still left what he considered a most unnecessary portion, and made a most unnecessary distinction; for it still provided different oaths for persons of different religious persuasions coming into that House. His noble Friend retained the Roman Catholic oath, because he said it had been established in 1829, and had remained unchanged for twenty years. That, he (Mr. Vernon Smith) thought, was no reason why it should be

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allowed to remain any longer. Not having conversed with any Members of the Roman Catholic persuasion upon the subject, he was unaware of their sentiments regarding it; but he himself thought the oath very objectionable, of very doubtful interpretation, and an insult to the Gentlemen of the Roman Catholic persuasion. And did any man, he would ask, consider that it gave any security to the Protestant Church? If, then, it were in every way objectionable, and productive in itself of no security, surely that oath ought to be done away with. Next, with regard to the Protestant oaths. The oath of supremacy, as described by the noble Lord, was only an explanation of the oath of allegiance. And the oath of adjuration his noble Friend proposed to deal with very summarily, it being absurd for any one to be called upon to abjure the pretensions of a Pretender who had no existence. It was to the oath of allegiance, then, that he wished the direct attention of the House, because it was intelligible to every one; and then he should remark upon the curious discrepancy between the oaths taken by Protestants and Roman Catholics. Protestants were called upon to swear by the true faith of a Christian, whilst Roman Catholics were obliged to swear that they would do no injury to the Church as established by law. The Protestant was not called upon to swear that he would do no hurt to the Church as established, nor was the Roman Catholic asked to swear upon the true faith of a Christian. Yet the Protestant Dissenter was, in his (Mr. Vernon Smith's) opinion, just as likely to do injury to the Established Church as the Roman Catholic. He should express his disagreement with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxford University (Mr. Gladstone) in the stress which he had laid upon the retention in the oath of the words, "upon the true faith of a Christian;" for, when members of the different sects of Christianity met at the same table in that House, and swore upon the true faith of a Christian, he was at a loss to know what was meant by the term "faith"—some of those Christian sects differing as widely in matters of faith from one another as Christians generally did from Jews. His noble Friend proposed still to retain three different forms of oath—one to be taken by Protestants of all denominations; one by Roman Catholics; and another by Jews. He thought that no man ought to be called upon at that table to declare what his religious
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opinions were. The more the oaths were simplified, the more decorous and solemn would their proceedings be.
Amendment proposed—
"To leave out from the word 'expedient' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words 'to abolish all Oaths except the Oaths of Fidelity and Allegiance,' instead thereof."
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, he had only to repeat the explanation which he had given upon a previous occasion, namely, that he did not think it expedient to alter the Roman Catholic oath, which was settled in 1829, when the great question of Roman Catholic disabilities was disposed of. Many hon. Gentlemen thought that that oath did give security to the Protestant Church, and he therefore did not think there was sufficient cause to induce him to propose an alteration, of it. He did not see the expediency of raising a great question when there was no necessity for doing so.
MR. HUMEagreed with his right hon. Friend (Mr. Vernon Smith) in the necessity that existed for reducing as much as possible unnecessary oaths. The Duke of Richmond, it was calculated, by the measure he introduced respecting oaths taken at the Customs and other places, had abolished by his Bill twenty millions of oaths. That is, that number of unnecessary oaths had been avoided. Since then, he believed they had abolished as many more, and he was not aware that the slightest dishonesty had ever occurred in consequence. He should vote for his right hon. Friend's Amendment.
Question put—" That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." The Committee divided:—Ayes 140; Noes 68: Majority 72.

List of the AYES.

Abdy, T. N.

Bruce, C. L. C.

Adderley, C. B.

Campbell, hon. W. F.

Anson, hon. Col.

Carew, W. H. P.

Archdall, Capt. M.

Carter, J. B.

Ashley, Lord

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Bailey, J.

Christy, S.

Bailey, J. jun.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Baillie, H. J.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Baines, M. T.

Cocks, T. S.

Baldock, E. H.

Cole, hon. H. A.

Bankes, G.

Cubitt, W.

Barrington, Visct.

Davies, D. A. S.

Bonnet, P.

Disraeli, B.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Dod, J. W.

Berkeley, C. L. G.

Drumlanrig, Visct.

Bernard, Visct.

Duckworth, Sir J. T. B.

Blair, S.

Duncuft, J.

Bourke, R. S.

Dundas, G.

Broadley, H.

Farrer, J.

Brotherton, J.

Ffolliott, J.

Brown, H.

Floyer, J.

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Foley, J. H. H.

Mulgrave, Earl of

Forbes, W.

Mullings, J. R.

Fuller, A. E.

Napier, J.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.

Neeld, J.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Newdegate, C. N.

Granby, Marq. of

Packe, C. W.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Packington, Sir J.

Greenall, G.

Patten, J. W.

Grenfell, C. P.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Grenfell, C. W.

Peel, F.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Gwyn, H.

Plumptre, J. H. P.

Halford, Sir H.

Power, N.

Harris, hon. Capt.

Prime, R.

Harris, R.

Pugh, D.

Hawes, B.

Repton, G. W. J.

Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.

Ricardo, O.

Heald, J.

Robinson, G. R.

Heathcoat, J.

Russell, Lord J.

Heneage, G. H. W.

Russell, F. C. H.

Henley, J. W.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Herries, rt. hon. J. C.

Shelburne, Earl of

Hervey, Lord A.

Sheridan, R. B.

Hodges, T. L.

Simeon, J.

Hodgson, W. N.

Slaney, R. A.

Hogg, Sir J. W.

Smith, J. A.

Hope, Sir J.

Smith, M. T.

Hope, A.

Smyth, J. G.

Hornby, J.

Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.

Hotham, Lord

Spooner, R.

Jermyn, Earl

Stanley, E.

Johnstone, Sir S.

Stanton, W. H.

Keppel, hon. G. T.

Staunton, Sir G. T.

Labouehere, rt. hon. H.

Taylor, T. E.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Tollemache, J.

Lemon, Sir C.

Townshend, Capt.

Lewis, rt. hon. Sir T. F.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Lewis, G. C.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Lindsay, hon. Col.

Verner, Sir H.

Macnaghten, Sir E.

Waddington, H. S.

Macnamara, Maj.

Walpole, S. H.

M'Gregor, J.

Walsh, Sir J. B.

Mahon, Visct.

Williamson, Sir H.

Maitland, T.

Wilson, M.

Mandeville, Visct.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Mangles, R. D.

Wortley, rt. hon. J. S.

Masterman, J.

Young, Sir J.

Matheson, Col.

Maunsell, T. P.

TELLERS.

Morgan, H. K. G.

Tufnell, H.

Morris, D.

Grey, R. W.

List of the NOES.

Anderson, A.

Glyn, G. C.

Bass, M. T.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Hastie, A.

Brown, W.

Hastie, A.

Caulfeild, J. M.

Headlam, T. E.

Cobden, R.

Henry, A.

Crawford, W. S.

Heyworth, L.

Divett, E.

Hindley, C.

Duff, G. S.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Duncan, G.

Humphery, Ald.

Dundas, Sir D.

Jackson, W.

Ellice, rt. hon. E.

Langsten, J. H

Ellis, J.

Lushington, C.

Evans, Sir De L.

Mahon, The O'Gorman

Evans, W.

Martin, J.

Ewart, W.

Melgund, Visct.

Ferguson, Col.

Mitchell, T. A.

Fordyce, A. D.

Moffatt, G.

Forster, M.

Molesworth, Sir W.

Fox, W. J.

Mowatt, F.

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Muntz, G. F.

Talbot, J. H.

O'Connell, J.

Tenison, E. K.

O'Flaherty, A.

Thicknesse, R. A.

Ogle, S. C H.

Thompson, Col.

Ord, W.

Thompson, G.

Osborne, R.

Thornely, T.

Pechell, Capt.

Trelawny, J. S.

Pilkington, J.

Walmsley, Sir J.

Rawdon, Col.

Wawn, J. T.

Ricardo, J. L.

Williams, S.

Salwey, Col.

Wood, W. P.

Scholefield, W.

Wrightson, W. B.

Seymour, Lord

Smith, J. B.

TELLERS.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Smith, R. N.

Stuart, Lord D.

Hume, J.

The CHAIRMANthen put the question upon the original resolution.
MR. BANKESsaid, he had given notice of an Amendment, but he believed it would be more properly brought forward in Committee on the Bill. He should have been disposed at the present moment to move the omission of the words "and to make provision in respect of the said oaths for the relief of Her Majesty's subjects professing the Jewish religion;" but he understood from the Chairman that after the division which had just taken place, he was precluded from so doing, the Committee having decided that these words should stand part of the question, and consequently he could only take a division on the whole of the resolution. Now, he did not object to the whole of the resolution, because he did not object to an alteration in the words of the oath, provided the alteration was for the better; but he entirely dissented from any arrangement for the admission of the Jewish subjects of the realm into Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman who had just divided the Committee had answered his own proposition, because if he felt there was any use in the oath, binding the conscience and honour of persons to the Sovereign, he (Mr. Bankes) had an equal right, on the part of the Established Church, to require a similar security. The words which he wished to introduce into the oath now under consideration were contained in the Roman Catholic oath, and he did not see why they should not be introduced for the purpose of binding the honour and conscience of those persons who were not adherents of the Established Church. These words were introduced to bind the honour and conscience of Roman Catholics, and he intended to propose that they should also be binding upon those persons of the Jewish persuasion who might obtain seats in Parliament; and he could not understand why an obligation should

1193
be imposed on Roman Catholics which was not intended to be fixed on the Jews. He was ready for the sake of argument to put them both on the same footing, and if they consented to take the oath, he should feel quite satisfied that they would be bound by it. This was the nature of the proposition which he should submit to the House at the proper time; but as he could not' move the Amendment now, he would not trouble the House by dividing upon the resolution. He trusted the noble Lord would turn his attention to the subject before the next stage of the measure.
LORD J. RUSSELLwas glad the hon. Gentleman proposed to defer putting his Amendment until the Committee on the Bill. The hon. Gentleman supposed that inasmuch as the words he proposed were included in the Roman Catholic oath, they might properly be admitted into the oath which was about to be framed. Now with respect to the Roman Catholic oath, the words were introduced at the period of the settlement of the question of Catholic emancipation, and formed a part of the terms on which Roman Catholics were thenceforth to be admitted to sit in Parliament, the object being to protect the Established Church. But they could not suppose there was any danger of the Jews subverting or overturning the Church Establishment, whatever apprehensions might have been entertained with regard to the Roman Catholics. As he understood the hon. Gentleman, he wished to introduce the words into the oath taken by all Members: that was a different question, such an Amendment being a relaxation in favour of one class of persons, enabling them to sit in the House, would be at the same time a restriction upon Protestant Dissenters. The opinion he (Lord J. Russell) entertained before the Roman Catholic oath was proposed he entertained still, and what was now proposed would in fact operate not as terms of admission but of prescription. On these considerations, and not being of opinion that the words themselves were very fit to be introduced as a qualification for Members to sit in Parliament, and having only agreed to them in the case of the Roman Catholic oath as part of the settlement then effected, he should, when the Amendment was moved, object to their introduction as affecting the Jews or any other class except the Roman Catholics.
MR. GOULBURNonly rose to express a hope, that acquiescence in the present
1194
proposal would not prejudice hon. Members who wished to oppose the Bill in future stages. He did not wish to express any opinion on the Roman Catholic oath; but the noble Lord objected to the words proposed to be introduced, on grounds which he thought were untenable. The noble Lord stated that the introduction of these words into a general oath would impose a hardship upon Dissenters. Now he (Mr. Goulburn) was not one of those who wished to impose restrictions upon Protestant Dissenters; but he could not help remembering that admission into corporate bodies was thought to be of great benefit to Dissenters, and that the test for such admission involved the taking of an oath not to exercise any power or authority the party was about to come into possession of, for the injury of the Established Protestant Church. He could not conceive that a declaration of a similar nature could operate injuriously towards Dissenting Members of the House.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLconceived that there was a very wide distinction between the test which might be fairly applied to persons admitted by the laws of the State to certain offices, and the test which was to be exacted before a person could enter into Parliament for the purposes of legislating. The two questions were totally distinct.
MR. J. O'CONNELLthought it should be decided in what position a Roman Catholic stood in that House. Were they in the same free position as Protestant Members or not? It appeared to be the opinion of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) that the restrictions in the Catholic oath, implying that they were not in a position to deal with the revenues of the Protestant Church, should be imposed on Protestant Dissenters. He did not think the conduct of the Government quite clear in this matter. Why did they not show the same regard for Catholics as others? There were Catholics here and elsewhere, men of conscience and honour, who felt that they came into Parliament with one hand tied up; others, on the contrary, did not believe that the words involved any restriction upon Members of Parliament to deal with the money of the people. He thought the time had come when the question should be decided one way or the other. No one would bow more readily than be, should a majority, or even a large minority, of that House decide that Catholics had no right to deal in any way with the revenues of the Protestant Church. The noble Lord said he would not impose a restriction

1195
on Dissenters, implying that he considered there was a restriction on Catholics. If so, let the noble Lord or let the right hon. Baronet who brought in the Emancipation Bill declare it; and let the Catholics no longer be taunted with perjury for acting as their consciences dictated. For his own part, he believed that money, so far from strengthening, injured religion; and with regard to Catholics generally, they repudiated any State provision for their Church.
MR. H. DRUMMONDsaid, it was certainly somewhat new to those who had some small smattering of historical knowledge, to be told that it was a prevailing doctrine in the Catholic Church that all alliance with money and wealth was detrimental to the cause of true religion. He reminded the hon. Gentleman and the House, that if it were true that Roman Catholics had no right to vote upon subjects connected with the Protestant Church, that Protestants claimed no right to vote on matters connected with the Catholic Church. Why did not hon. Gentlemen remember and act up to the old adage, that "what was sauce for the goose was sauce for the gander?" He considered the present Motion to be an attempt to pass an ex post facto law against the Dissenters, and an effort by a side wind to deprive them of their privileges.
The EARL of ARUNDEL and SURREYwished to state the reason why he felt that he could not vote either for the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton, or for that which the hon. Member for Dorsetshire was to bring forward. But, first, he would reply to the hon. Member for Surrey, that the difference between Protestants voting on the Catholic church, and Catholics voting on the Protestant Church, was founded simply upon the oath which Roman Catholic Members took. As to that oath, its terms were such that many Roman Catholic gentlemen of equal honour and equal scrupulosity took different views of the obligation which it imposed. There was no compulsion on a Catholic to enter the House; but when he did so, there was a compulsion on him to take a certain oath, as a condition of his admission. Now, doubtless, the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman near him would go to relieve Roman Catholics from the oath which they took, and the inconveniences which it entailed. But then he held that if Roman catholics negotiated and agreed to enter
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the House upon certain conditions, that they ought not to take advantage of their admission to abrogate those conditions. Let them take a familiar illustration. Suppose a club were to admit foreigners as members, giving them all the privileges of the institution, upon condition of their refraining from interfering, in certain respects, with the management of the club-then, supposing a number of foreigners had been thus admitted, it surely would not become them to take advantage of their membership to abolish the conditions upon promising to observe which, they had been originally admitted. He, for one, would therefore refrain from interfering in this subject at all. He should take it as a boon, if Government were to alter an oath which was differently interpreted by different honest and conscientious men; but he would neither vote for nor against such a proposition.
MR. NEWDEGATEcould not feel otherwise than highly gratified at the speech of the noble Earl who had just sat down. Would that all Roman Catholics were like him! Firm in upholding the interests of his Church—ready to promote its advancement even when it might be felt to be an invasion of the Established Church; yet he had shown that he was not disposed to avail himself of that doctrine which some Catholics believed, in that they were free from the obligations of the oath. [Cries of "No, no!"] He was glad to find that that was not the fact. If the oath were to be altered, he thought his hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes) had reason on his side; but he was glad his proposal was deferred.
MR. G. ANSTEYconcurred with the noble Earl the Member for Arundel in his view of the Roman Catholic oath, and the duty of Roman Catholic Members as to any proposition to alter that oath. It would be the more fair and honest course in the hon. Member for Dorsetshire to propose the introduction of words into the oath absolutely and in terms prohibiting all those who did not belong to the Church of Eng-land from in any way interfering with the temporalities of the Church of England. That was, no doubt, the real intention, as regarded Roman Catholics, of the original framers of the oath. He felt it to be his duty to give effect to that intention; his only regret being that it was conveyed in such an ambiguous manner as to leave Roman Catholic Members in doubt as to which way they ought to take it.
MR. NAPIERobserved, that the object for which the Emancipation Act was passed, as explained by the right hon. Baronet on introducing it, was to extend to the Catholics civil and religious privileges, and at the same time to secure the rights of the Established Church; and he was glad to find that the interpretation put on that Act by Dr. Doyle, and other high Roman Catholic authorities, was that it was a compact entered into by the Legislature on the one hand, and the Catholics on the other, one condition of which was that the influence thus acquired by that body should not be used to the prejudice of the Protestant Church, and that nothing could exonerate the Catholics from the conditions thus imposed. He was glad to find that the interpretation which was put upon the compact by Protestants was shared in not only by those authorities, but by the noble Earl and other Catholic Members of Parliament, and that it was in no way opposed to the tenets of the Catholic faith.
MR. SHEILthought it incumbent on him, as a Catholic Member, to state that his view of the obligation imposed by the Roman Catholic oath did not coincide with the interpretation put upon it by the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. J. O'Connell), nor with that of his noble Friend (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey) behind him. If the interpretation of his noble Friend—which had obtained for him the panegyric of the hon. and learned Member opposite (Mr. Napier)—if that were correct, no Roman Catholic could have voted for the Church Temporalities Bill. No Roman Catholic could have voted for the diminution of the number of bishops in Ireland, nor for the abolition of church cess, the effect of which had been to diminish the revenues of the Established Church indirectly to the extent of 60,000 l. a year. There was a great distinction between the total subversion of the Church, and a modification or even a diminution of its revenues, if they left an adequate sum not only for the maintenance of the spiritual establishment, but for its temporal sustainment as one of the institutions of the country. He did not think it proper on this occasion to enter into an examination of the exact words of the oath; but would content himself with referring the hon. and learned Member to the observation made by Sir C. Wetherell at the time the terms of that oath were settled. Sir C. Wetherell said, using a forensic expression, that the terms were wide enough to drive a coach and
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four through them. What more easy than to make a Roman Catholic swear that he would not employ his civil privileges to diminish the temporal possessions of the Established Church? If that were the interpretation of the oath, why was there not a declaratory Act? He could not agree with the hon. Member for Limerick, that if a particular vote were passed by a majority, or even a large minority of the House, putting a different interpretation upon the oath, he would consider himself bound by it. He (Mr. Sheil) preferred the well-known legal maxim, that the oath was to be taken and construed secundum sensum impositum. Still the difficulty arose, what was the intention of the Legislature? His interpretation was, that he was bound both in conscience and honour not to attempt the subversion or overthrow of the Established Church; still that he was at full liberty to make such alterations in its temporalities and revenues as should be consistent with its general advantage, and its due and permanent maintenance.
The EARL of ARUNDEL and SURREY: The speech of the right hon. Member only proves what I have said as to the different interpretations put by men of the highest honour upon the oath.
MR. J. O'CONNELLthought the House ought to consider whether the present uncertainty respecting the oath taken by Roman Catholic Members should any longer exist. He was willing to see such a declaratory Act as that referred to by the right hon. the Master of the Mint introduced, in order that the terms of the oath might be explained, because at present he was placed in a somewhat painful position. He had a notice of Motion for Monday, by which a new modification of the revenue's of the Church of England was proposed; but of course he would not submit it if he found that, in interfering in Church matters, he was acting contrary to the oath he had taken. The question, however, resolved itself into this—were the Catholics emancipated or were they not? Irish Catholics had won emancipation for themselves and the English Catholics; and, although two of the latter had spoken their views that evening, yet they must recollect that whatever understanding other, had come into Parliament upon, the Irish Catholics had not entered the House with their hands tied. The case alluded to by the noble Earl (the Earl of Arundel and Surrey), was inapplicable, because the Irish Catholics would have rejected emancipation

1199
were it clogged with any objectionable conditions. The question, however, which had now arisen was in every respect a most important one, for it resolved itself into this—whether the people of Ireland, who paid their money to the support of the Church of the minority, were to have no voice in any matter pertaining to the temporalities of that establishment. He called upon the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth to answer this interrogatory, and to explain the views he entertained in proposing the Roman Catholic oath.
SIR R. PEEL: Even if the hon. Gentleman's impression were correct, that the oath to which he refers was first introduced on my recommendation, it appears to me that I should be acting improperly if I were to declare what in my opinion is the proper construction to be put upon that oath. The adoption of that oath by whomsoever proposed was the act of the House of Commons and of the Legislature. Since the period of its imposition, many votes have been given by Roman Catholic Members in this House. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen will do me the justice to admit that, since the year 1829, I have never insinuated against any Roman Catholic Member of Parliament that he has given a vote on any particular subject from other than conscientious motives. If the Legislature be dissatisfied with the course which hon. Gentlemen may have taken in this House, it is the duty of the Legislature to establish some new rule for the guidance of those Members, and to declare by a new enactment what is its intention with respect to Roman Catholic Members of this House. But it is not the duty of any Member to declare his own individual opinion on the proper construction of an oath, in order that that opinion may be a rule for the guidance of others in the discharge of their public duty. The hon. Gentleman is, however, in error in supposing that this oath was introduced by me. Before I notice the oath, I will briefly advert to a proposal made, I believe, by my right hon. and lamented Friend, Sir R. Wilmot Horton, expressly providing that Roman Catholic Members should not be permitted to vote on questions affecting the interests, spiritual or temporal, of the Established Church. I stated my objections to the introduction of any such proposal, and said—
"My right hon. Friend has proposed, with a view to calm the suspicions and fear" of those who
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object to the admission of Roman Catholics to Parliament, that the Roman Catholic Member should be disqualified by law from voting on matters relating, directly or indirectly, to the interests of the Established Church. There appear to me numerous and cogent objections to this proposal. In the first place, it is dangerous to establish the precedent of limiting by law the discretion by which the duties and functions of a Member of Parliament are to be exercised. In the second, it is difficult to define, beforehand, what are the questions which affect the interests of the Church. A question which has no immediate apparent connexion with the Church, might have a practical bearing upon its welfare ten times more important than another question which might appear directly to concern it. Thirdly, by excluding the Roman Catholic from giving his individual vote, you do little to diminish his real influence, if you leave him the power of speaking of biasing the judgments of others—on the question on which he is not himself to vote, and if, by a jealous and distrusting but ineffectual precaution, you tempt him to exercise to your prejudice the remaining power of which you cannot, or do not, propose to deprive him. I believe there is more of real security in confidence than in avowed mistrust and suspicion, unaccompanied by effectual guards. For these reasons, I am unwilling to deprive the Roman Catholic Members of either House of Parliament of any privilege of free discussion and free exercise of judgment which belongs to other Members of the Legislature."
The Act of 1829, did, however, require an oath to be taken by Roman Catholic Members on taking their seat. That oath, however, was in substance not then proposed for the first time, but adopted from the Act of the Irish Parliament, which in the year 1793 removed the greater part of the disabilities affecting the Roman Catholics. The oath in question was required to be taken as the condition of relief from those disabilities. The oath had been previously imposed in the year 1774 by the Act which removed the restrictions on the tenure of landed property by Roman Catholics. The oath in question had the full assent of the Roman Catholic body when it was originally imposed, and no objection had been subsequently offered to its requirements. This oath being an existing security-a security taken at previous periods with the consent of the Roman Catholic body—was adopted in substance in 1829, and was required from Roman Catholics as the condition of the exercise of legislative functions. The oath imposed by the Act of 1793 was to this effect:—
"I do solemnly swear that I will defend, to the utmost of my power, the settlement and arrangement of property in this country as established by the laws. I do hereby disclaim, disavow, and solemnly abjure any intention to subvert the present Church Establishment, or substitute

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a Catholic establishment in its stead; and I do solemnly swear that I will not exercise any privilege to which I am or may become entitled, to disturb or weaken the Protestant religion or the Protestant Government in this kingdom. So help me, God!"
Every Roman Catholic appointed to office under the Act of 1793, every freeholder exercising the elective franchise, had this oath put to him, and had the same obligation which the Roman Catholic Member now has, to consider the true meaning and purport of the oath. I am content to leave that question to be determined by each Roman Catholic Member of Parliament after mature reflexion on the terms of the oath. I believe that his decision, whatever it may be, will be a conscientious one. Until some new rule be established, the conscientious convictions of each Member must be his guide—at any rate, I cannot undertake to declare what is the proper construction to be placed upon the oath in question.
MR. J. O'CONNELLsaid, it now appeared, from the course the discussion had taken, that this question must now be settled animo recipientis. He wished to see a short declaratory Bill introduced which would settle the matter at once; and to its provisions, if adopted, he promised to yield a ready acquiescence. He admitted that the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth had never accused the Catholic Members of perjury; but, then, his silence, when the charge was advanced, had operated prejudicially, so far as their characters were concerned. He reminded the right hon. Baronet that there was a considerable difference between the emancipation oath and the oath of 1793; and he had always been of opinion that, according to the words in which the former was couched, He was not precluded from speaking and voting on the temporalities of the Irish Church. He was perfectly willing to adopt the language used by the right hon. Gentleman the Master of the Mint on this subject, and to withdraw what he had himself previously said when adverting to the oath.
MR. LAWsaid, that in suffering the resolution to pass without requiring the House to divide upon it, he wished to state, that he reserved to himself the full power of pressing the subject to a division on a future occasion.
Main Question agreed to:—Resolution to be reported.
Resolution reported, and agreed to:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Bernal,
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Lord John Russell, and Sir George Grey.
The Chairman reported progress, and the House resumed.

RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of this Bill,
MR. HUMEprotested against the measure, upon the ground that it would cause an extravagant expenditure of the public money, and intimated that, although he should decline dividing on the present stage of the measure, the House would certainly be divided upon it at a future one.
Bill read a second time.

IRISH COLLEGES.
MR. BANKESsaid, he had been given to understand that the colleges established by the Government in Ireland were now supposed to be useless. He wished to know if they were in operation, or if any salaries were being paid to the professors and masters?
LORD J. RUSSELLreplied, that there had been a sum voted by Parliament for the erection and maintenance of these colleges, and that the buildings were now nearly completed. They would be ready in the month of October, and a great many professors had already been appointed. So far from the colleges being useless, a great many persons of the highest respectability in the Roman Catholic Church were their warm supporters.

VICE-GUARDIANS OF UNIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the Order of the Day for the Second Reading of this Bill,
MR. HUMEasked the noble Lord what other measures for Ireland he intended to bring forward in the present Session? Did he intend to stand by the Irish Church as it now exists, or did he not? That was the question.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that it was not his intention to give any notice of Motion respecting the Irish Church.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEreiterated the question of the hon. Member for Montrose, with respect to the Irish measures of the Government.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that the Government were not prepared to state, in answer to a question given without notice, what were the whole of the measures which the Government intended to propose during

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the present Session with regard to Ireland. His right hon. Friend the Secretary for Ireland had stated the views of the Government with respect to three of those measures; and he should himself be prepared, on a future occasion, to state what further measures the Government had in contemplation.
The EARL of LINCOLNexpressed a hope that the period of paying the vice-guardians would be postponed to the 26th of March, 1850, as the winter six months were the most important season for the vice-guardians to discharge their duties efficiently, and their payment might not be provided for beyond September if the Bill stood as at present, and Parliament was prorogued at the usual time.
SIR G. GREYsaid, in reply, that the Government had the subject mentioned by the noble Earl under their consideration.
House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock till Monday next.

MINUTES,
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Habeas Corpus Suspension (Ireland).
Reported.—Inland Revenue.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Derby, for the Adoption of such Measures as shall secure to Clergymen Seceding from the Church, the full Benefits of the Acts of Toleration.

CONVICT ESTABLISHMENTS.
The DUKE of RICHMONDwished to put the question of which he had given notice on this subject to the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies—namely, whether the Government would consent to abstain from the entire abandonment of the system established with respect to the female convicts sent on board the Anson, and from giving orders for dispersing the staff employed on board that convict ship, until, by the production of the papers connected with the subject, their Lordships were enabled to see whether they could approve or not of that abandonment. It was the bounden duty of the Legislature to see whether some plan might not be adopted for the purpose of providing for the numerous class of female prisoners, now assembled on board the hulks, some means of reformation. If there were a large number of female convicts sent from the manufacturing districts to act as domestic
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servants in the colonies, to lake care of children, and so on, without any previous steps having been taken to reform them, it would be of course most destructive to the morality and well-being of the people there. He hoped the Government would not entirely break up the female convict establishment; but, at all events, that system should not be abandoned unless the Government were prepared to submit to the House some other plan which would have the effect of reforming those unfortunate females. He made no charge against the Government—he only wished to call his noble Friend's attention to the subject, being perfectly satisfied of his being most anxious to endeavour to reform those unfortunate young persons, many of whom had not reached the age of twenty years.
EARL GREYsaid, that in consequence of the notice which he had received from the noble Duke to ask the question which had been just put, he had referred to the correspondence on this subject in the Colonial Office, and he did not find in it anything to induce him to alter the arrangement that had already been come to. The papers on the subject had been laid upon the table of the House a few days ago, and would be at once in the hands of their Lordships. The establishment on board the Anson was entirely the act of the Executive Government of the day, for which the Government were alone responsible; and it required no interference on the part of Parliament to authorise any alteration with regard to it. The subject had been very fully and carefully considered; and, with the most perfect conviction as to the necessity of doing away with that establishment, he did not think that he would have been justified in postponing the despatch of his instructions to the colony until the question would have been considered by Parliament. He held in his hand an extract from the despatch of Sir William Denison, of the 5th of December, 1847, in which he stated—
"In my last despatch I stated my opinion of the unsatisfactory nature of the establishment for female convicts on board the Anson. Since then. Dr. Bowden has died, and Mrs. Bowden has been continued, though at a reduced salary, as superintendent. I cannot, however, refrain from impressing upon your Lordship the advisability, in every point of view, of breaking up the establishment altogether. The returns which accompany the report of the Comptroller General show that the discipline, if such it can be called, is altogether inoperative in producing improved moral habits, and the material results are equally nugatory. The saving of expense by allowing the female

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convicts to be hired at once on their arrival, will be very great; and I feel certain that the change will be beneficial in every way."
The view expressed by Sir William Denison was corroborated by Mr. Hampton, the Comptroller General of Convicts; but still, even after the receipt of that despatch, he had thought it better to wait for another half-yearly report, before taking any decisive steps on the subject. At the end of the next half-year, however, Sir William Denison and the Comptroller General of Convicts reiterated their former opinions, and convinced him of the expediency of no longer postponing the despatch of female convicts, more especially as a female house of correction had been opened at Ross, in the centre of the island, in a situation affording great facilities for the reception of offenders. He was persuaded that under the circumstances the hulk should be abandoned. He attributed the failure of the experiment not to any want of care or attention on the part of Mrs. Bowden, the superintendent, but as the necessary and inevitable result of any attempt to establish a system of female discipline on board a crowded hulk. Neither in the Bermudas, nor in Van Diemen's Land, nor at home, had such a system succeeded. The more he saw of this system, the more did he become convinced of the necessity of forming an establishment on shore for the reception of those convicts, where there would be sufficient space for separation of the classes, and for ventilation. He was of opinion that any attempt at improvement in the state of the convicts must be by subjecting them to a preliminary period of severe discipline in this country. The subject had undergone the most careful consideration both on his own part and on that of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and they were both of opinion that the treatment of female convicts was a subject involving peculiar difficulties.
LORD STANLEYsaid, in the absence of the papers to which the noble Lord had alluded, he would not refer to the subject farther than to ask the noble Earl three questions; and he wished at the same time, to remind him that the establishment on board the Anson was merely a temporary establishment, which it was proposed to continue merely until a penitentiary, on an extensive scale, could have been erected on shore. He wished to know, in the first place, if the report of Sir William Denison, or of the Comptroller
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General of Convicts, was made from personal examination? And if so, whether such personal inspections had been frequent or otherwise? Also, whether, as Mrs. Bowden, the superintendent of the Anson, was at present in this country, the noble Lord had communicated with her so as to afford her an opportunity to explain the charges that had been brought against her management?
EARL GREYsaid, that the papers were now in the library of their Lordships' House, and the noble Lord would have them at his own residence to-morrow, when he could refer to thorn in detail. He was unable to state from memory how frequently Sir William Denison, or the Comptroller General of Convicts, had personally inspected the establishment. As to the other question put by the noble Lord, he certainly had not asked for any explanation from Mrs. Bowden, because no fault had been attributed to her management. On the contrary, he had already stated that the failure of the establishment was not owing to the management pursued, but that it was a necessary effect of a system of crowding a large number of female convicts on board a hulk.

SUSPENSION OF THE HABEAS CORPUS ACT (IRELAND) BILL.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that he rose to move the Second Reading of the Bill now on their Lordships' table, for continuing for a limited period the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland. In moving this Bill, he certainly felt himself under some degree of embarrassment, not from any apprehension that their Lordships would not see sufficient grounds to entertain the measure, but because, while he felt, on the one hand, that it would be most improper and unbecoming, whenever a measure infringing in any degree on the liberty of the subject, as this Bill undoubtedly did, was brought forward, for the Minister having charge of it to withhold all explanation with regard to the grounds upon which it was proposed, or for their Lordships to abstain from all consideration of the necessity for its enactment; yet, on the other hand, he felt that the grounds of this measure had been already so fully and so explicitly laid before them in the despatch from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, now on their Lordships' table, that he could have nothing to add to the statement contained in that despatch, which was in their Lordships' hands, and that any

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comments which he might be induced to make upon the Lord Lieutenant's statement would leave him exposed to the charge of rather taking from that statement than of adding to its force. However, even with that feeling, he still thought it to be his duty to recall to their Lordships' attention the fact, that, although the efforts of Her Majesty's Government, and the efforts of the loyal and well-disposed portion of Her Majesty's Irish subjects, had hitherto been successful in putting down that which none of their Lordships who had read the proofs and testimonies that they possessed on this subject could doubt had been a deliberate, systematic, and intended attempt at rebel-lion in that country, which only failed by the promptitude and energy with which it was met—feeling that their Lordships must be well convinced of that, he thought it was hardly necessary for him to suggest to them what the Lord Lieutenant had already so well laid before them—that it was impossible, after such a trial and such an agitation, that the wave of that agitation should be considered as having completely subsided; and that their Lordships were, therefore, not to be called upon, in some degree, to provide for the future as they had provided for the past. It resulted, however, from the nature of the case, that the very success of the experiment—if experiment it were—had deprived them of proofs of the necessity for its continuance; but, on the contrary, there were abundant proofs, up to the very latest moment, so far as there had been any expression of feeling on the part of the leaders in that rebellion, or of their followers, that they had seen reason, undoubtedly, to regret their failure, but not to regret their attempt. It was most desirable that every effort should be made to put an end to the state of agitation as well as to the depreciation which, from other circumstances, had, in the course of a recent period, prevailed in that part of the united kingdom, over the interests of which, and over the well-disposed and loyal portion of the inhabitants of which, it was their Lordships' bounden duty to watch. But, without dwelling on what their Lordships were aware was the opinion of the Lord Lieutenant on this question, he would wish to call their Lordships' attention to the manifestations of opinion on the part of those persons themselves, before, during, and after the recent trials in Ireland, and which manifestations proved the necessity which existed for the continuance of the present proposed safeguard
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of the peace of the country. They had, on this point, the evidence of some of those persons themselves. They had the evidence of one of the leaders in that rebellion, who had been induced to fly the country, and to cross the Atlantic, to avoid the danger which he apprehended from the well-known share that he had taken in the rebellion. That gentleman had gone to New York; and their Lordships had the advantage of learning from his testimony, not only what had been, but what still were, the sentiments and intentions of the leaders of sedition, rebellion, and treason, in that country. He trusted that their Lordships would bear with him for a few moments while he called their attention to some of the sentiments expressed by that individual, and to some matters disclosed by him at a public meeting held in New York. The meeting was numerously attended, and was held, as it appeared, for the purpose of presenting a rifle to a Lieutenant M'Cann, who was about to take his departure for California. At that meeting he found that Mr. Doheny used this language—
"And I came not here to despair, nor to live upon the good opinion of the past, but to repair, if I can, and wherever I can, the fortunes of my country. The first thing I desire to say is, that there is no cause for despair—that nothing was done on the late occasion of which any Irishman need be ashamed. There was no betrayal on the part of the Irish; there was not one among the starving and the miserable found base enough to accept a bribe. Circumstances unexpected occurred—we were separated in the country—we were forced on by the cunning of the Government—the movement was prematurely urged to a crisis which proved for the present ruinous to the cause of Ireland. That crisis became inevitable. A Bill was passed through the British Parliament by Government in one night. The same mail that brought the intelligence of its introduction, brought the Bill itself with the royal signature attached.…. Need it be wondered at that defeat attended our endeavours? There was no time for concert, not even an opportunity to meet and consult until the auspicious moment had passed away.…. We travelled through a district of country where in one day 20,000 pikes were forged, fitted, and polished. With these means at our disposal, had we a lucky chance to obtain a single victory, old Ireland would have been a free nation, her Norman taskmasters would have ceased to pollute her sacred shore…… We are still turbulent—still disaffected. Either Ireland shall be free—a free republic, 'one indivisible and supreme' or the end of our turbulence is not in time…… If England's dissolution come not in ten or twelve years, it is inevitable, no matter how long delayed; and as sure as the returning spring assures us that nature asserts her sovereignty in the change of seasons, so sure will Irishmen establish in Ireland a republic, one and indivisible. …As for me, I confess I was never what is

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called a repealer. On the contrary, my belief was that the soil of Ireland belonged to her people, and that the 'golden link of the Crown' would be but another name for slavery; that in Ireland we should have a starred flag of our own, which, in the hour of peril to human liberty, would float beside that of the great republic."
This had at least the merit of being frank and open, and was the language of one who had been in the counsels of that party that had agitated Ireland last summer, and who was ready, it appeared, to take the same part whenever the opportunity again offered. With that announcement, and with the declaration of the Lord Lieutenant before them, their Lordships could have no hesitation in declaring that for the security of that country, and for the prevention of disturbance, these leaders, on whom alone this Act would be and could be brought to bear, ought to be deprived of the power of again disturbing the peace of the country. He would say no more, but to add that he wished to guard himself against the supposition that this measure, or any measures of the like nature, were alone sufficient to provide for the future welfare of Ireland. Although he thought that measures such as this were indispensable as the foundation for future prosperity—as the only means by which alone any improvement in the state of property could take place—yet he was at the same time willing to admit that it was the bounden duty of the Legislature not to consider such enactments as the only panacea for the evils of Ireland, but from time to time to engage in the consideration of its social position, with a view to ascertain of what remedies it would admit, what improvements they could promote by laws, and, above all, what security they could give to the sober, the industrious, and the loyal inhabitants, occupiers and proprietors of that country. On these grounds he begged to move that the Bill be now read a second time.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, the chief objection which he saw to the Bill was the limited period for which it was demanded, as he could perceive no grounds on which the Lord Lieutenant could hope that by the 1st of September or the 1st of August, or any such appointed near time, there Would be an end to Irish rebellion, though there might be an end to some of their Lordships' lives within that time. That was a matter, however, which his noble Friend had to take on his own responsibility. He wished merely to say one word on the nature of the mischief which they all so much deplored—first of all, because it plunged Ireland
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into her present abject state, aggravating all the social evils under which she suffered, and preventing, as it undeniably did, capital from going thither, the want of which was admittedly the great evil of which that country had to complain; and, secondly, because it rendered imperative the temporary suspension of the constitution—in itself a very great evil at all times. But the cause of all these evils was the agitation which had been allowed to prevail so long in that country. He did not blame the Government to which his noble Friend opposite belonged, or the Government of which he had been himself a Member, or the late Government of Sir Robert Peel, or the Government of his noble and gallant Friend at the table (the Duke of Wellington). He did not blame any one of those Governments in particular, but he thought they were all chargeable with great neglect in this particular. He said this in the presence of his noble and gallant Friend opposite (the Marquess of Anglesea), who had been one of the most able of Irish Viceroys, as he was one of those who was least to blame in this respect, having closely followed the steps of his illustrious predecessor, his (Lord Brougham's) lamented friend. Lord Wellesley. The system with all Governments had been to let agitation go on until it came to so fearful a height that it was scarcely possible to put a stop to it. They had allowed successions of meetings to be held, finances to be extorted from the pockets of the starving people, and agitators, lay and clerical, to work upon the minds of the multitude to such an excess, that at length it became necessary to take such steps as the present to prevent the efforts of the agitators from going further, and overturning the Government. Agitation was the cause, and rebellion was the result. They allowed agitation to be sown, and rebellion was the fruit which they should be prepared to gather. Agitation had become a trade. It was as much a trade as any other trade in the sister country, and was much more actively followed than any other. The natives of Ireland had shown themselves most industrious in this trade, though they might, perhaps, not excel in the ordinary branches of industry as much as the natives of some other parts of the united kingdom. The consequence was most melancholy; but it was only what, according to the most obvious principles of economic science, they had to expect—namely that other trades

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had been abandoned for the more lucrative, and exciting, and popular trade of agitation. Yet he found that in a part of the country where great distress prevailed, 1,000 l. had been collected for the purpose, not of relieving the poor and necessitous, or of enabling persons to exist who are dying of hunger, but to send to his Holiness the Pope, who began the agitation in Italy, and had reaped the fruit he sowed himself. Things must be much out of joint in a country where such transactions occurred. He could not look on the 1st of September as a proper limit to fix for the duration of this Bill: when he looked at the letter of his excellent Friend, Lord Clarendon, who had so admirably administered the government of Ireland during the last two eventful years, a longer suspension seemed rather to be recommended than repudiated. Consider for a moment the state in which the administration of justice in Ireland was placed. Gracious God! Only think of a juror getting up in the jury-box, clapping his hands, and crying "hurrah!" at an observation of the counsel for the prisoner! Such a country is wholly unfit for jury trial if scenes like these are suffered. Why, you might as well have an African jury; greater indecency could never be witnessed in the worst kraal of Hottentots to be met with in Africa. When he perceived that a juror had clapped his hands and hurraed—when he read that he said there would be no verdict, and there was accordingly no verdict—the oath told the juror that he should well and truly try the case submitted to him—but the man who took the oath and so conducted himself, showed that he was but little prepared to keep it. Belonging to their Lordships—as a Member of that Supreme Court—he could not express to them the indignation which he felt in finding that such scenes could take place, and which tended to prove that the country in which it occurred was unworthy of that which was felt to be a prime blessing—trial by jury. The indignation, too, that he felt against this conduct, was also caused by the consideration that it was setting such a bad example to witnesses; for if a witness saw a juror in respectable circumstances, as he understood that person to be—the owner, as he understood, of one of the principal inns in Dublin—[A Noble LORD: The Shelburne.] Why, he had said that this person had, by his name, brought disgrace upon one great name,
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but he should be sorry to think that by his calling he was able to bring disgrace upon another. Here, then, was a respectable man in point of station; and when poor persons were brought forward as witnesses, and saw that person thus trifling with his oath, as by his conduct he showed he did, and encouraging them to disregard theirs, he said they could not expect those poor persons to behave better as witnesses than their betters did as jurors. As to the other measures which the noble Marquess had said he hoped would accompany or follow this Bill, all he would say as to such measures was, that it was easier to express a hope than to entertain an expectation.
LORD MONTEAGLEquite agreed with his noble and learned Friend, that it would have been desirable to extend the limits of the term for which this Bill was to last. A longer duration would have accorded better with the course recommended by Lord Clarendon, whilst the short time of six months taken in the present Bill might lead to serious Parliamentary inconvenience. The Bill might come on for renewal at the latest period of the Session, when it might stand in the way of other more urgent legislation. In reference to the observations of his noble and learned Friend on the juries in Dublin, he would venture to put in a claim for other parts of Ireland, where the people had shown they were possessed of manliness, of courage, and of impartiality in the performance of their duty—other parts of Ireland, where no impediments were thrown in the way of justice. While upon such a painful subject, he must call their Lordships' attention to one grievous defect in the law relating to Ireland—that was, in the law relating to the possession of arms in that country. To the state of the law upon that subject was to be attributed much of the crime and much of the agitation which disgraced Ireland; and it was also dangerous to the existence of the connexion between the two countries. For the first time for many years they had no law on the Statute-book for putting a restraint on the possession of arms. Such a state of the law ought not to be allowed, because it was dangerous to the loyal man, and gave great advantage to the disaffected to carry out their designs. One argument used against the enactment of an Arms Bill was, that it gave the power of domiciliary visits. Was that system at an end now? No. Domiciliary visits were now frequent, but they were made, not by the

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officers of the law, but by the Ribbonmen—by the sworn disturbers of the public peace. Many men who were in the rightful possession of arms had been despoiled of them by the robber, who turned them against the law. During the last four years the number of offences in the robbery of arms had increased from 159 to 1606. That was the number of offences, having no reference to the number of arms taken, or of persons engaged in the depredation; and out of so many offences there had been no more than seventy-nine prosecutions and only twenty-six convictions. This was not a state of the law which their Lordships could allow to continue, if they hoped for a restoration of public tranquillity in Ireland. No other remedy would be so effectual to put down the rebellious spirit as a good Arms Bill.
On Question, resolved in the affirmative: Bill read 2a: Committee negatived; Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

HIGHWAY RATES AND TURNPIKE TRUSTS.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURY The MARQUESS of SALISBURY moved for certain returns connected with Highway Rates and Turnpike Trusts.
The DUKE of RICHMONDcould not allow that, the very first opportunity, to pass over without entering his protest against the attempt which was about to be made to saddle the county rates with the whole 8,000,000 l. of debt which the turnpike trusts had incurred. This was the very worst period which could be conceived for such a plan—a time when the agriculturists were suffering under so much distress. A time when the agricultural interest was called upon to compete with the foreigner was the very last moment they could have expected that any Minister would come to Parliament with a proposal to add eight millions to the county rates. They might attempt to make that addition, but the time was fast coming when they must either go back to the wise and honest system of protection to British interests, which they must do, or they would be called upon by the voice of the whole country to review their system of taxation—to get rid of the present system which pressed so heavily and injuriously upon the industry of the country. As to the malt tax, he would not give them a year's purchase for it. The farmers could not pay their rates and taxes, if they were compelled to enter into competition with the foreigner, and yet this was the time
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when it was proposed to add eight millions to their already heavy burdens. Their Lordships knew that the county rate was paid out of the poor's rate, to which the smallest cottager was called upon to contribute, and he used turnpike roads but little. Why, then, should he be saddled with such an additional load of taxation? He could not allow that—the very first opportunity—to pass without protesting against additional taxation being thrown on the industry of the country.
House adjourned to Monday next.