Sitting of 4 April 1849

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT.—For Nottingham County (Southern Division), v. Lancelot Rolleston, Esq., Chiltern Hundreds.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Chattels Partition and Sale; Police of Towns (Scotland).
2° Attachments, Courts of Record (Ireland); Passengers; Friendly Societies.
Reported.—Tenants at Rack Rent Relief; Sequestrators Remedies.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir Ralph Lopes, from Newton Ferrers, Devonshire, against the Parliamentary Oaths Bill.—From Clergymen of the Established Church, for Subdivision of Large Parishes.—By Mr. Bouverie, from Bristol and several other Places, and by Mr. Parker, from Sheffield, for the Clergy Relief Bill.—By Mr. Bouverie, from Kilmarnock, and a Number of other Places in Scotland, and by Mr. Cowan, from Stirling, against any Bill for the Purpose of compelling Railway Companies to run Passenger Trains on the Lord's Day.—By Mr. Parker, from Sheffield, for Reduction of the Public Expenditure.—By Mr. Osborne, from Inhabitants of St. Pancras, Middlesex, for the Adoption of Measures for the Relief of Distress arising from the Dearth of Employment.—By Mr. Walter Long, from the Medical Officers of Bradford Union, Wilts, for Redress of Grievances affecting Poor Law Medical Officers.—By Colonel Boyle and Colonel Freestun, from Poor Law Officers of Frome Union, Somerset, and Weymouth Union, Dorset, for a Superannuation Fund for Poor Law Officers.—By Sir E. Buxton, from Chelmsford, for the Suppression of the Slave Trade.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE—CONDITION OF THE COLONIES.
LORD J. RUSSELLmoved that the House at its rising should adjourn to Monday, the 16th of April.
MR. HUME, before the House adjourned, thought that it should consider the state of the colonial governments at the present period. There was a sort of con-

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tention going on in the colonies, which could only lead to the most lamentable results. Assemblies were set against Governors, and Governors against Councils; and the consequence was a course of contradictory proceedings quite disgraceful to the country. The dissatisfaction of the colonies must be owing to misgovernment at home. For his part, he could not understand why the Government here persisted that the colonies should not effect such reductions in their civil expenditure as they thought fit. That a colony should be beneficial to the mother country it was absolutely necessary that the colonists should be contented—that they should be convinced they derived a benefit from their connexion with England. The benefit was mutual. But so far were our colonists from being contented, that he should ask people to read the accounts of what was going on in Jamaica—a colony that used to be a model of content and prosperity. In Jamaica the Council, a body that stood like the House of Peers, rejected what the Assembly and the whole of the inhabitants of the colony demanded, namely, a reduction in their civil expenditure. He said that a Government which permitted such proceedings ought not to be allowed to continue in office. What would be the consequence of them? What was to be expected but additional outlay for the maintenance of troops, and for the support of men who were acting against the wishes of the colonists? What was to be done with Demerara or Trinidad? The Government had sent out Mr. Barkly, as Governor, to Demerara, to settle the differences that had arisen; and what were those differences about? Why, the colonists were unanimous in demanding a reduction of the salaries of all the high officers; and the Council, who were all officials, would not permit it. Instead of having such a body as the Council, it would have been much better to give the Governor five votes at once. Every unofficial man in the colony had given his opinion in favour of the reduction; yet from the 30th of December, 1847, to the present period of 1849, there had been a constant contention kept up between the popular body there, and Earl Grey here. Only a few day ago, he (Mr. Hume) presented a petition signed by 2,500 proprietors of the colony, praying for the interference of the House. The fact was that dissatisfaction at present prevailed in every one of our colonies, except Canada, which was going on most satisfactorily.
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They had been told by some of the journals of this country that Canada was in a state of great uneasiness and discontent, because a certain sum of money was to be voted to compensate parties for losses they had incurred during the late rebellion. But in answer to that allegation, he (Mr. Hume) had to state that on the division which had taken place upon that subject on the 27th of February, the proposal which had been so much censured by a portion of the public press in this country, had been affirmed by a majority of 67 to 5—that was to say, that there were only five dissentients to a Motion which it had been said had caused the greatest dissatisfaction in the colony. He considered that the adoption of a system of responsible government in Canada, had been perfectly successful. He found that at various meetings throughout the colony, votes of thanks had been passed to the Earl of Elgin, the Governor General of Canada; and he (Mr. Hume) confessed that he had the greatest confidence in the ability and the good intentions of that noble Lord. He hoped that we might, next year, be able to withdraw the whole of the 10,000 troops we had there, and that Canada would, afterwards, continue more firmly united than ever to this country. He believed that the state of Canada was now one of growing prosperity, on account of the wise and liberal policy that had been adopted there; and he wished a similar policy was followed in our other colonies. He thought that before the House adjourned for the holidays it ought to receive some explanation from Her Majesty's Ministers of their views on the subject of colonial policy, and how they proposed to deal with the disaffection which at present prevailed in so many of our colonies. He should object to so long an adjournment as was proposed, unless he should hear from Her Majesty's Government that any steps had been taken for the purpose of introducing responsible government in Demerara and Jamaica.
LORD J. RUSSELL: Does the hon. Member move any Amendment?
MR. HUME: No, I have no Amendment to propose.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The hon. Gentleman has certainly taken a new occasion of giving us his opinion on the subject of the colonies; but the theme on which he has expatiated is an old one, and the language which he has employed is that which he has usually adopted. I must beg the House to bear in mind that we have forty-

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three colonies connected with the British Crown; and therefore it is not wonderful that, almost at any time when the hon. Gentleman addresses the House, there should be some two or three colonies in which dissatisfaction and discontent may exist. The hon. Gentleman, therefore, in the observations which he has thought proper to make, has only availed himself of a very bold figure—that of taking part for the whole—when he said that all our colonies were discontented. I do not remember, indeed, any year for the last ten years in which the hon. Gentleman has not made this assertion. [Mr. HUME: Quite the contrary.] Well, then, I must proceed to cite particular instances. The hon. Gentleman many years ago used language with regard to Canada which tended, I think, not to reconcile that province to the Government of this country, but which rather tended to promote an unlawful resistance in Canada to the due authority of the Crown. For my part, I always said it was necessary to put down resistance to legal authority, and to assert the supremacy of the Crown; but at the same time it was my opinion that the wishes of a great colony like Canada should be respected, and that they ought to have an influential voice in the regulation of their own internal affairs. Well, the insurrection which had been excited was successful in some degree, but our troops were more successful; and in spite of the various prognostications which were hazarded—in spite of the denunciations which warned me that I was about to follow the example of Lord North, and that Canada would imitate the conduct of the united States, and separate herself from this country—I say, in spite of this, the measure which I proposed, for the union of the two provinces, was successful, and produced great content. And now we find the hon. Gentleman—all his prophecies being falsified, and everything which he said being proved to be groundless—admitting that the province is supporting the Government of the colony on the behalf of the British Crown. The House will recollect also that though the hon. Gentleman has made many attacks upon Earl Grey—attacks which have been severe and frequently repeated—the Earl of Elgin was recommended by Earl Grey for the government of Canada, and that the Earl of Elgin, by the admission of the hon. Gentleman himself, and of all reasonable people, has carried into effect the theory of responsible government with
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so much moderation and good sense as to reconcile in the happiest manner the interests of the colony and the mother country. Therefore, with regard to that colony at least, there must be a little exception to the statement of the hon. Gentleman, that the whole of our colonies are discontented. After all we have heard of the great discontent excited in Canada by the Bill introduced for the compensation of losses incurred during the rebellion, we find that there is a majority of sixty-seven in its favour, and only five votes against it. With regard to representative government, what does the hon. Gentleman want more? [Mr. HUME: Nothing.] I am very glad to hear the hon. Gentleman make that admission, because it shows that, with regard to one great colony at least, the hon. Gentleman is satisfied. With respect to Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, I do not know that there is anything of consequence which can be said with regard to discontent in those colonies. With regard to the colony of the Cape of Good Hope, of which we heard a good deal last year, Earl Grey recommended to the Crown Sir Harry Smith as the Governor of that colony—a man not only of great ability in war, but thoroughly acquainted with the colony itself; and his administration of affairs has been attended with the happiest results, there being no war now going on, and no discontent in that colony. I agree, however, with the hon. Gentleman, that, wherever it is practicable, our colonies ought to have representative government; and I believe that there is now a plan under the consideration of Sir Harry Smith by which a greater control on the behalf of the people will be introduced into the institutions of that colony. New Zealand is another colony in which there was, a few years ago, a very great degree of discontent, which found a very warm expression in this House. I think that the late Government, and particularly Lord Stanley, deserve very great credit for appointing a man like Captain Grey to the government of that colony. I had the honour of giving him his first appointment, being very much struck with his ability; and I am very glad to find him placed over the administration of affairs in New Zealand, which I believe he is likely to advance to a state of prosperity. With regard to New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, there was some time ago a degree of discontent with respect to the subject of transportation; but I do not think it can be said that there is

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any very general discontent prevailing in those colonies. Well, then, if it is not the case that discontent and dissatisfaction prevail in the colonies which I have specified, let the House again consider that there are forty-throe colonies under the British Crown, with various institutions, inhabited by different races, the government of which at all times has been a matter of considerable difficulty. Now, I ask the hon. Gentleman to name to me forty-three independent States in which there is not a considerable degree of discontent to be found. Let him take every one of the States of Europe, as well as those which extend over the American continent, and point out to the House forty-three States whose institutions give perfect satisfaction to the people who live under them at the present moment. I do not think that he can do so, and therefore it is not right that every Colonial Secretary should be told that discontent exists in the colonies. There are colonies in which I do not deny that a good deal of dissatisfaction prevails; but when the hon. Gentleman refers to the causes of that dissatisfaction, I think be can hardly lay them to the charge of the Colonial Secretary of State. I mean those colonies which are concerned in the production of sugar. The Act by which the slaves were emancipated, and the Act by which the admission of foreign sugar was regulated, were the work of Parliament; and there is no doubt that the effect of these two laws has been to diminish the profits arising from the production of sugar in the colonies, and that much dissatisfaction is the consequence. But the hon. Gentleman cannot find fault with these acts. Whether they were wise or not, they were not the acts of the Colonial Secretary, but of Parliament; and whatever discontent prevails on that account, it is not to be laid at the door of the Secretary for the Colonies. Nothing could be more natural than that such a change in the value of property in those colonies should produce a good deal of discontent and dissatisfaction. Of course I do not wish to enter upon so large a question at the present moment, hut with respect to the colony of British Guiana, I wonder that the hon. Gentleman should now bring it under the consideration of the House. An hon. Gentleman moved for a Select Committee to inquire into the state of that colony; and pending that Inquiry, I do not think it advisable to bring the subject under the consideration of the House of
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Commons, without knowing what evidence has been taken before the Committee, and without being informed what opinion they have formed upon it. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose, however, represents that Earl Grey will not allow British Guiana to make any change in the civil list, or in the salaries of the civil servants of the colony. That is not the ground taken by Earl Grey. He says, "Let a reduction be made, if it be necessary; but let it be made at a time and in a manner consistent with the faith established between the Crown and the colony." In 1844, the colony gave the Crown a civil list, which was to subsist till the year 1851. Those who now hold offices in the colony, hold them upon the faith of the civil list, which was established by the colony on the one hand, and by the Crown on the other. Earl Grey says, that it would not be proper or fair for the provincial legislature, on its own authority, to disturb and set aside that arrangement. He considers that he is bound to maintain it; and I do not think that when the faith of a colony has been pledged to a civil list, no engagements, however solemn, are to be respected because discontent prevails in the colony on the subject. Such is the objection which Earl Grey makes; and be says, "Let a reduction, be made, if necessary, but let it be made in a manner which is consistent with the faith due to the Crown." The hon. Gentleman speaks of the opinion of the legislature having been overruled; but he speaks of it as if it had been the opinion of a popular legislature. Now the legislature of British Guiana, so far as it is unofficial, is elected by a very small body, and does not by any means represent the inhabitants of the colony. I have always been, and am still, of opinion, that there ought to be a more popular representation in that colony, and that the present Court of Policy does not represent the general opinion of the inhabitants. In 1851, the bargain to which I have referred will be at an end, and the legislature of the colony may make any change which it may consider desirable. All the observations, therefore, of the hon. Gentleman with reference to the prevalence of discontent in the colonies amount to this—that, with regard to the sugar colonies, there have been such changes made as to place them in very great difficulties. But the Colonial Secretary of State did not cause those changes; and I believe that he deserves the utmost assistance on my part in the

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attempt which will he made to get over those difficulties, which must be met with temper, but at the same time with firmness. The House will have the opportunity of seeing, when the report of the Committee is presented, what is best to be done; but I do not think that the scheme of popular representation would prosper everywhere; for instance, I do not think that it would be applicable to Gibraltar. In my opinion, this general proposition admits of very great exceptions; but I agree with the hon. Gentleman, that wherever there is a British colony, and a population of British descent, capable of governing themselves, you ought to admit them to the advantages of a popular representation. I think that, in such a case, they ought to look into their own concerns; as the opinion which they may form on the subject of their own laws and finances are likely to be a great deal better than those at which any Colonial Secretary may arrive, whatever may be his talents, and whether that office be filled by Earl Grey or any one else. At the same time it must be borne in mind, that this is a maxim which must be a carried into effect with a regard to the actual condition of each particular colony.
MR. BERNALdid not mean to oppose the adjournment; but, though he was not prepared to say that our 43 colonies were discontented, nor that our Colonial Secretary was responsible for the heartburnings which prevailed, yet he could not disguise from the House that those colonies to which his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had adverted were in a state upon which it was painful to reflect. He would take Jamaica, with the state of which he was best acquainted, and, without travelling into reasons or entering into details, he could assure the House, that with respect to its financial arrangements and its statistical condition, that colony was in a most deplorable state. He was the last man to advise that any breach of faith should be committed, but he knew that the salaries of the Government officers, and of the ecclesiastical ministers in that island, were in a state of abeyance; and that in many places the ministers of the Established Church would remain unpaid altogether, were it not for the exertions of particular congregations. Without putting his finger on any sore place, he earnestly recommended to the Government temper, moderation, and discretion in their communications, for the
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occasion was one which demanded temper and moderation, more than it fell to the lot of any human being to possess. Throwing away altogether that warmth or violence of feeling which belonged to him when such a subject was under discussion, he would say that he looked on our colonial connexion as well worth preserving. We lived in an age of experiments. He did not find fault with experiments having been made; but before they embarked for another voyage on the wide sea, he would have the House consider the wisdom of doing nothing which might endanger the connexion between the colonies and the British Crown.
Motion agreed to.
House at rising to adjourn to Monday, 16th April.

ATTACHMENTS, COURTS OF RECORD (IRELAND).
On the Motion that this Bill be read a Second Time,
MR. KEOGHsaid, he had no objection to the principle of the Bill, but thought injustice would be done to the marshal of the Recorder's Court, who derived certain fees from the process of attachment, which the hon. Member for the city of Dublin proposed to abolish by this Bill, without giving the officer in question any compensation. He might take a pull at the Consolidated Fund, to use the phrase of the hon. Member, but objections were entertained to such a course; and he would, therefore, suggest as a preferable course that whatever might be substituted for that of attachment, the same fees should be paid on that process during the life of the officer, but to cease after his death.
MR. GROGANhad no intention of opposing the second reading, but wished rather to see a measure which excited so much interest so dealt with as to secure the general concurrence of all; and he would, therefore, suggest to his hon. Colleague not to move the second reading now, but to let it stand over till after Easter.
MR. REYNOLDSwas happy to find that the two hon. Members approved of the principle of the Bill, as it appeared that their only objection to it was that it did not provide compensation for a particular officer of the court. Although he was extremely anxious to carry this Bill, he would not be a party to inflict any injustice on any officer fairly entitled to com-

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pensation for the abolition of his office. If the Bill was then read a second time, it would be ample time for either of the hon. Gentlemen opposite to propose a clause for compensation when the House went into Committee on the Bill. The House, he was sure, was hardly aware of the nature of those courts. The Boroughreeve Court in Dublin was formerly known by the name of the Sheriffs of Dublin Court; but this had been abolished by one of the clauses in the Irish Municipal Act, and the powers possessed by it were transferred to the Recorder's Court. The process was, that any person who declared that another person was in his debt, had only to make an affidavit to that effect before the Lord Mayor or the Recorder, when he obtained an attachment on the goods of his alleged debtor. He found, by the Parliamentary paper, 249, of this Session, that the gross number of affidavits for attachments sworn before the Recorder of Dublin, during the last three years, was 301; and before the Lord Mayor of that city, 1,984, making together 2,285. Of these not less than 1,076 were for debts under 20 l. It appeared in another part of this return also, that the fees and expenses in most cases exceeded the amount of the debts. Was the House aware of the nature of an attachment? It was the seizure of the goods of a defendant by a bailiff on the mere allegation of debt, which could not be released until the defendant obtained two bail, who had to swear that they were worth double the amount for which the goods were seized. There need be no previous application or notice to the defendant before his goods were seized for an alleged debt; so that this process had all the effect of a judgment in one of the superior courts. A pauper in the streets might make an affidavit that a merchant or shopkeeper owed him 100,000 l., and the defendant could not got his goods released until he got two sureties who swore that they were worth 200,000 l. above all debts which they might owe. As an illustration of the proceedings in this court, he would mention the case of a highly respectable professional man, who proceeded from Dublin to the Continent, and left his house there in the charge of two servants. While he was away, a man who had formerly been a servant in his house swore that this gentleman owed him 500 l.; and on his return to Ireland, he found that all his goods had been sold by auction, to pay this alleged debt. He had been informed
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that the Judges in all the superior courts in Dublin were opposed to this attachment system; and in a case in the Insolvent Court, recently reported in the Freeman's Journal, one of the Commissioners expressed a hope that it would be immediately abolished. He was glad to find that the two hon. Gentlemen opposite did not object to the principle of the Bill; but if they did, he really thought that if the population of Dublin were polled on the question, they would find themselves in a minority of two. When the Bill was in Committee, he should not object to any reasonable proposal for the purpose of compensating and protecting the interests of the marshal, and it appeared likely that the proposal which the hon. Gentleman himself had made, would prove a practical one. He trusted the House would assent to the second reading of the Bill.
The ATTORNEY GENERALhad no intention of opposing the second reading of the Bill, for he highly approved of its principle; but in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman the Member for Athlone, he thought it necessary to guard against any understanding that the Government would consent to the compensation of the marshal out of the Consolidated Fund. It would be well to consider the propriety of pausing on every measure of improvement in the law, on the ground of there always being some vested interest to pay for. There had been many cases in which most exorbitant claims made upon the public had been conceded, rather than that a useful measure of reform should be abandoned. He admitted the propriety of some compensation being made to this officer, but doubted whether the course proposed by the hon. Gentleman opposite, of continuing the fee under the new Bill, should it pass, would be the proper course, inasmuch as it would impose a tax upon the poor suitor to the amount of some 6s. or 7s., not because it was necessary, but because this marshal must be compensated.
MR. SADLEIRwas glad that the hon. Member for Athlone was proceeding with this Bill; for he was rejoiced to see some chance of a creditor being able to proceed against an absent debtor. In the present state of the law, a landed proprietor in Ireland might owe many thousands, to tradespeople and others, and yet manage, by living abroad, to enjoy the whole income arising from his estates, leaving his creditors all the while unpaid.
Bill read a second time; committed for Wednesday, the 25th April.

PASSENGERS' BILL.
On the Question that the Passengers' Bill be read a Second Time,
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYsaid, he toot it for granted that the words "mercantile vessel" would be construed to mean any description of sea-going vessel; therefore, upon that point, he did not think it necessary to trouble the House with any observations; hut he rose to say that he thought the regulations which this measure imposed ought to be made applicable to vessels proceeding from one part of the united kingdom to another. A striking instance had recently occurred, that of the Londonderry steamer, showing the necessity of some regulations in the case of passengers proceeding by vessels engaged in what might be called the coasting trade. He wished to know whether the hon. Gentleman opposite would have any objection to introduce some such regulations when they came to consider the Bill in Committee.
MR. J. O'CONNELLsaid, that if the hon. Baronet would look at Clause 4, he would find that it entirely prevented the introduction of any such regulations as he had properly suggested. He was sure that if the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies could only see the way in which steamers leaving Ireland were crowded, he would at once acknowledge the necessity of making some provisions against such abuses; he doubted, however, whether it could be effected in the present Bill, and, if it could not, he was quite of opinion that a short Bill ought to be brought in and without delay passed for that special purpose.
MR. MONSELLwas sure that the justice of the appeal made by the hon. Baronet behind him would be felt by the House. It had been found, and he was happy to say so, that the Bill of last year had worked well; he rather regretted to find that some of its provisions were altered by the present measure; and he hoped that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies would see the advantage of referring to last year's Bill before that which was now before them went into Committee. The subject was one of great and growing importance. As many as 250,000 of our fellow-subjects became every year interested parties in these Passengers' Bills; and he, therefore, thought the time of the House by no means mispent in at-
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tempts to render it as perfect as possible. One of the greatest difficulties was to accommodate the dietary to the different habits of the English and Scotch on the one hand, and the Irish on the other. The early habits of those nations were so dissimilar, that it became no easy matter to determine upon a dietary that should be suitable to all of them. Upon these grounds, as well as for other reasons, he did think it would be much better to send this Bill to a Select Committee before they proceeded with it any further, for such a Committee could best manage details respecting the quantity and quality of the diet. Another point on which he wished to say a word was the appointment of surgeons to passengers' vessels. The appointment of medical men was at present left in the hands of the owners of the vessels—subject, of course, to the approbation of the emigration agents; but still the appointment was practically in the hands of the owners of the vessels. Now, that was leaving the matter to those parties who were most interested in defeating its beneficial operation. It would be much better if they required that those officers should be appointed in the manner suggested by Mr. Stephen De Year. He saw no reason whatever why the Colonial Office should not appoint a person to see that no abuses connected with the appointment of surgeons took place. Upon the whole, he earnestly recommended the reference of the Bill to a Select Committee upstairs.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that the Bill would introduce great improvements, especially as regarded the dietary. Perhaps it was fixed on too high a scale for the poor people of Ireland.
MR. H. HERBERTobserved, that the temporary measure of last year had worked very well; and he thought that evidence of that ought to be laid before a Committee of the House.
MR. HUMEhad always been opposed to legislating in detail upon such subjects as this. It was well known that many letters came from Canada to this country, and from other places also, complaining of the inadequate manner in which the trade in emigration was carried on, and complaining very strongly of the state of the vessels in which emigrants were carried out. There was every reason to believe that the officers in charge of those vessels neglected their duty. He thought that Government ought to require certificates from the emigration agents at the different

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ports where the vessels arrived as to the condition of the vessel, &c. Furthermore, he considered that it should be the duty of those officers to see that in all emigrant vessels cleanliness and ventilation were duly attended to.
MR. HAWESsaid, he was very glad that there existed no objection to the principle of the Bill, and that it, therefore, might now be read a second time without any one being dissentient. In the course of the present conversation various details had been mentioned, and he was happy to observe it universally admitted that the Bill of last year had effected a beneficial change. He could confirm the statements of hon. Members upon this point by saying that the last accounts from Canada, from Australia, and from the United States, were all in favour of the working of that Bill. The present measure, however, could hardly be called a new Bill, for it was a general consolidation Bill; it, therefore, necessarily comprehended many details contained in former Acts; and, in bringing the whole of the law into one general Bill, the House would find that it contained many provisions which were already in force. As to the dietary, he was bound to say, that the evidence which came under their notice decidedly showed that the dietary ought to be improved, not only in order that the emigrant should be more comfortable during his voyage, but that on his landing he should be in better health, more vigorous, more capable of labour, and, therefore, better able to obtain work and food. The dietary which the Bill of last year enjoined had been a great improvement upon the preceding practice; and that being admitted, some people said, why not be content? but when they went into Committee, he could bring conclusive evidence to show the necessity for a still better dietary. He might, however, at present, make this observation, that heretofore the emigrants were in the habit of taking with them some food themselves, but that if in future there were a full dietary it would be found, on the whole, not to produce any material increase of cost to the emigrants. In his opinion, these matters ought not to be left to the emigration agents alone; but the law on the subject should be clear and unequivocal, and should be fully known to landed proprietors and others who might he disposed to promote emigration. With respect to the suggestion about providing a different dietary for vessels, according to the part of the united
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kingdom from which they sailed, he begged to say, that he saw great objections to introducing any such provisions in the Bill. Then, as regarded the reference of the Bill to a Committee upstairs, it was a point on which, at present, he did not like to pledge himself, but rather preferred to reserve it till the House reassembled. He next came to the suggestion of the hon. Baronet the Member for Evesham regarding coasting vessels. For any suggestion proceeding from him he entertained the highest respect; but he feared that his views on this point could scarcely be carried out now, for the coasting trade evidently did not come within the scope of the Bill. Regulations suited to coasting vessels could not well be made to apply to those which went long voyages. His hon. Friend the Member for Montrose had said that the agents abroad ought to hear and make reports upon all complaints which might be made to them respecting emigrant vessels, He could inform the House that that had already been done; and he now ventured to hope, that for the immense mass of human beings who every year were proceeding from this country to another quarter of the globe, the Passengers' Act would prove most beneficial.
MAJOR BLACKALLwas favourable to referring the Bill to a Select Committee, and protested against there being any difference in the dietary of English, Scotch, or Irish emigrants. He thought it would be a cruel disappointment to many of the Irish people, who had been saving money during the winter with the object of emigrating to America, to require them to provide a dietary for the voyage which was entirely beyond their means.
Bill read a second time, and committed for Wednesday, the 25th April.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.
MR. SOTHERON, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, said, that the object of it was to remedy certain defects in the Friendly Societies Bill passed two years ago. It required that a competent authority should be appointed who should certify not only that the rates and contributions which had accumulated in these different friendly societies were sufficient to meet their liabilities, but that he should also affix his signature of approval to the rules as well as the tables of such society. The recent Act provided that every five years there should be a valuation made of the assets and liabilities,

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which should be drawn out and sent to the registrar; but it omitted to provide that tins computation was to be done by a competent person. That part of the measure was therefore useless. This Bill would require this computation to be made by a competent person, namely, an actuary of five years' standing, and to whom a fee of one guinea was to be paid. Having received several communications recently complaining of the inadequacy of this fee, it was his intention in Committee to move that the fee should vary according to the number of members in the society, beginning with one guinea when the number did not exceed 200; and when it was more than 200, and not above 400, two guineas; when above 400, and not exceeding 700, three guineas; when above 700, and not exceeding 1,000, four guineas; when above 1,000, and not exceeding 1,500, five guineas; and so on, increasing in proportion. From the calculations made, these fees would not amount, in every five years, to more than one penny a head to each member. Such a return would afford a certain means of ascertaining the solvency of every society in the kingdom. The Bill would also require that every year each society should make a return of its assets and liabilities; and the registrar should make out from this return a paper to be laid before Parliament, by which a mass of information would be collected upon this important subject. It was not generally known in this House how very large a portion of the community of this kingdom were subscribers to these friendly societies. The Bill would affect not less than 34,200 societies, the number of members in which exceeded 4,000,000. The annual sum raised thus from the savings of poor men exceeded the sum of 6,000,000 l. He thought, then, it would be allowed that this subject deserved the attention of Parliament, with a view to protect the interests of the poor persons who invested a portion of their hard earnings in those friendly societies. The Attorney General had intimated to him that the Government wished to make some alteration with respect to burial clubs; and perhaps that hon. and learned Gentleman would undertake to draw up a clause on the subject, which might be proposed at a subsequent stage of the Bill.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that he highly approved of the object of the measure; but there were one or two points which required much consideration. It would appear by the terms of the 3rd
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section, that the registrar might receive fees to the amount of 5,000 l. or 6,000 l. a year from the societies transmitting their accounts. [Mr. SOTHERON said he was ready to provide against such a large accession to the registrar's fees.] Now, he apprehended that it could not be the intention of the hon. Member who had charge of the Bill, or of the House, to authorise any one individual placed in the situation of the officer referred to, to receive so large a salary. Such a provision would lead to the greatest evils, and to the grossest imposition towards the public. He thought, likewise, that some provisions ought to be made to guard against the dangerous temptations held out by burial societies. How this object was to be effected was, no doubt, a matter that called for their most serious consideration. It might be questioned whether the title of this Bill would warrant the introduction of such provisions. He thought, however, that it would be a most important object to attain if they could embody all these provisions within one general and comprehensive measure.
MR. ROUNDELL PALMERthought that there were other societies in which a great many poor and industrious persons had placed their savings, which were not under the protection of the law, and which demanded their immediate attention—he referred to the "Odd Fellows'" societies. There were no possible remedies as yet adopted against the grossest frauds that might be committed in those societies. When it was considered that there were many thousands of those societies, and that the number of members belonging to them was immense, it was, he thought, the duty of Parliament to devise some means by which the protection of the law would be afforded to them. In Manchester alone, where the chief society of Odd Fellows was established, there were no less than 264,000 members belonging to it. The annual amount raised from them was 396,000 l. He believed that the Bill that was framed last year to meet this case failed because some members of these societies were not willing to be placed under the power of the law. He thought, however, that it was their business to bring them within the operations of the law.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that in the observations which he had previously made he did not intend to allude to the "Odd Fellows," which were not legal societies; though he believed them,

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in many respects, to be very useful societies, they required to be supervised and regulated. Those societies were illegal on two grounds—they had secret signs, and they had branch or corresponding societies. The members were ready to communicate their secret signs to magistrates, but they were unwilling to give up their corresponding societies, on the ground that they could not do so without destroying the efficiency of the associations. It had not been thought advisable, especially under the circumstances existing last year, to repeal the laws against corresponding societies—a step which might have given any persons, under the pretence of being members of Odd Fellows' societies, an opportunity of organising seditious societies; but he was most anxious that the Odd Fellows' societies should be brought within the protection of the law.
MR. BROTHERTONthought it was most important that something should be done in respect to these societies of Odd Fellows, as there was at present no security whatever against frauds committed on them. In respect to the present Bill, he was of opinion that it was a most dangerous experiment to authorise the payment of fees, as it would have a tendency to discourage persons from joining these friendly societies, which should rather be fostered and encouraged as much as possible. He knew, however, that many of them had been formed upon erroneous principles; but a proper measure of legislation would have the effect of correcting these evils in some degree by giving a good security to those who subscribed to them. It was also most desirable to discourage the system of holding their meetings in public-houses, where a great portion of the money which might be dedicated to useful purposes was expended for liquor.
MR. ADDERLEYsaid, that the difficulty of legislating for the Odd Fellows' societies arose from their own objections to the proposal made to them to bring them within the sanction of the law. There appeared to him to be only one objection to the bringing them within the provisions of a Bill, and that was their secret signs. The objection as to their being corresponding societies, he thought could be got over, for by the 9th and 10th Vict. that difficulty was provided against if these societies were enrolled. In respect to friendly societies, he thought that the best way to avoid the evils that might arise from them, was to have a constant and rigid examination of
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their accounts. All the incipient danger might be avoided by a proper measure of legislation.
MR. HUMEdid not know anything more important than to encourage these societies, for he always thought that they afforded the best means of cultivating prudence and thriftiness amongst the working classes. He thought it most desirable to enable all such societies to obtain legal advice without much expense; indeed, he would support a proposition to pay a professional man at the public expense, for he thought that the public money could not be better bestowed than by encouraging habits of prudence amongst the people, and enabling them to provide against sickness or other contingencies to which the most provident and best-disposed people were liable. He wished to ask the hon. and learned Attorney General whether he was disposed to concur in the opinion that all societies should be brought within that protection of the law which, he said, was not now given them?
The ATTORNEY GENERALwas quite disposed to concur in the opinion that it was desirable that all these societies should be brought under the operation of the law; the difficulty was with respect to the mode of carrying that object into effect. It might be desirable to arm the law with a summary power to inflict penalties upon those societies professing to act, but which in reality did not act, under the sanction of the law.
MR. H. HERBERTobserved, that as the law at present stood, there was no responsibility, and consequently no security, felt in these friendly societies. He trusted that the House would now legislate in such a manner as to impart a feeling of security in the public mind with respect to these institutions.
MR. E. DENISONthought that the class of persons who were interested in these societies were greatly deserving of the attention and consideration of the House. Many of these societies offered higher premiums in the country than legal societies did. They came before the public with very much the show of solidity, and ignorant people were generally captivated by the promise of a high rate of interest, and thus induced to intrust their hard-earned savings to them. He trusted that this Bill would be made to embrace a much wider field than was now proposed, and that all those societies would be brought within its scope.
MR. P. SCROPE, whilst he concurred in the objects of the Bill, doubted whether it would be found effectual in curing the evils which existed with respect to those societies. Some years ago he had introduced a Bill for placing these societies on a sounder footing, but the measure failed in its object. These societies, which were sometimes called "friendly," sometimes "benefit societies," were in fact mutual assurance societies, in which the parties mutually insured each other against certain contingencies that might arise. Now, it was of the greatest importance so to secure the solvency of these societies, that a party, after having subscribed for years in anticipation of a particular benefit at the expiration of a certain period, should feel that he was protected against the sudden breaking up, or bankruptcy, of the concern. But the whole subject was one upon which the Government itself could best legislate.
LORD DUDLEY STUARTsaid, that all sides of the House admitted the utility and importance of the Odd Fellows' societies. Was it not, then, extraordinary that they should be still allowed to be illegal? He trusted the hon. Gentleman opposite would, if possible, introduce a clause in his Bill to include them.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISthought that the House generally would agree that the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the Bill was entitled to their thanks for the trouble he had taken. There seemed to be no objection to the second reading. But the details of the Bill were such, and some of the observations and suggestions of the hon. Members for Plymouth and Kerry were so important, that the better course would probably be to read the Bill a second time, and refer it to a Committee upstairs.
MR. SOTHERONhad no objection to the Bill being referred to the Select Committee, provided it were not materially extended in its principles and operations. His fear was, that the numerous suggestions likely to be made in Committee would so alter the Bill from the comparatively small one which he meant it to be, that it would be in fact lost. There were 34,000 of those societies in England, with a capital of 6,000,000 l., and not above one-half of them were enrolled. As his Bill was merely to amend the measure under which they were enrolled, its operations would extend to only about 14,000 societies. If, then, he agreed to the Select Committee, he hoped that at the first meeting they would define exactly what their
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objects were. And if he did not think the effort of the Committee would be to carry out his objects, he trusted the Government would come to the rescue.
MR. CORNEWALL LEWISexplained that he had no intention of imposing upon the hon. Gentleman a general revision of the law relating to friendly societies. But inasmuch as several suggestions had been offered, he thought they would be better considered by a Select Committee than by the House.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Select Committee.

TENANTS AT RACK RENT RELIEF BILL.
The House went into Committee upon this Bill.
MR. SOTHERONbegged pardon of the House, if, in his ignorance of the proper form, he had left to that moment the explanation he felt bound to give in consequence of the number of suggestions that had been made to him upon the subject of this measure. He had been urged by all those hon. Gentlemen who had supported the second reading of the Bill, to go still further, and, instead of putting one-half only of the rates upon the owner of the property, to put the whole amount. Several other additions had been urged upon him, but he did not adopt them; because, in the first place, he did not think that he could carry them; and, in the next, he feared that he might lose his Bill altogether, if he attempted to introduce them. He would, however, throw out some suggestions for the consideration of the Government. The county rates were divisible under three heads. The first of these heads, concerning works of a national character, as the maintenance of prisoners, the transport of them, the cost of prosecution, and all matters connected with the criminal jurisdiction of the country, ought to be supplied at the expense of the Government: the second, which was of a permanent character, such as the cost of all buildings in the county for public purposes, ought to be defrayed by the owners of property; and the third to be borne by the occupiers, would be the cost for such smaller items as they received, and perceived the advantage of. Whether the Government would accede to the first part of his proposition, he did not know; but it was notorious that there was hardly a county in the country between which and the Government there

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was not a misunderstanding regarding the building of gaols and the regulations of prisons. He, therefore, thought it would be well that the Government should pay the whole of this charge. They could then regulate as they pleased, the magistrates having no right to interfere with them. He would thus strike off from the county rates the whole charge for the maintenance of prisoners before and after trial; the expenses of prosecutions, and the removal of convicts; the salaries of gaolers, and all the cost of prison jurisprudence. The greater part of these charges had been already taken in hand by the Government. He would recommend them to take the remainder. Then, with regard to the second item, he thought that whatever expenditure for public purposes in the county was of sufficient magnitude to require that the payment should be extended over several years, should be considered a fair burden upon the owners of property, and not upon the occupying tenant. The remaining charges would be only the salaries of the treasurer of the county, of the clerk of the peace, of the coroners, and one or two other small items, and they would fall lightly upon the occupiers. Now, whether these matters were to be considered by a Committee of the House, or by a number of county gentlemen themselves, he thought it would be well if all who were interested in the question, whether Members of the House or not, were to meet together and try to devise some mode, upon a clear and intelligible principle, whereby they could take upon their own shoulders some of those burdens that were found oppressive to their tenantry. The ratepayers would then see that the landlords were willing to do what lay in their power to lighten the burdens of the people. With regard to the suggestion that had been made to him, that the whole, instead of half, the rates should be paid by the owner, he did not object to its introduction, if it should be the feeling of the House. But, if there were any strong opposition to it, he should prefer adhering to his original proposition, and he trusted that the House would allow the Bill to pass in its present shape.
MR. E. DENISONthought that the whole system of local taxation and expenditure was far from being in a satisfactory state, and that it required careful consideration with a view to its revision. The provisions of the Bill under consideration would operate unequally with regard to
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expense; and he thought the best and most satisfactory course would be to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, when the whole subject in connexion with local taxation could be considered, and the measure adapted to the circumstances of the case.
MR. SPOONERagreed with the hon. Member who spoke last that the county expenditure was in a most unsatisfactory state, and that the present system required alteration. He agreed with the principle of the measure of the hon. Member for North Wilts; but bethought that it should provide for the total relief of the rack-rent tenants from the expense in question, instead of half of it; and upon bringing up the report, he should divide the House upon the point. If the principle of relief was good in one case, it was good in the other. There were many evils connected with local taxation and expenditure; and, believing that this Bill would tend to rectify some of them, he thought that the details of it could best be considered by a Committee upstairs.
MR. HUMEwas of opinion that the whole subject should be dealt with at once, instead of piecemeal. He quite agreed that the best way of settling the question would be to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.
SIR W. JOLLIFFEthought that much more ought to be done to improve the system of county rating and expenditure than was contemplated by this Bill. He approved, however, of the principle of the measure, and he hoped that it would be passed into a law. If it was just that the rack-rent tenants should be relieved from half of the expenses of the lunatic asylums, upon the same principle it was just that they should be relieved from the whole of them; and he, as a landlord, was quite ready to bear his share.
MR. KER SEYMERhoped the hon. Gentleman would proceed with his Bill. If he adopted the suggestions of the hon. Member for Montrose, and sent the Bill before a Select Committee, he might rest assured it would not pass this Session.
MR. CORNEWALLLEWISagreed with the hon. Member for Montrose that much advantage would be derived from the consideration of this question as a whole, with a view to some general supervision; and if the Bill he had introduced yesterday was sent to a Select Committee, an opportunity of considering the subject would thereby be afforded. From the recent changes that had taken place, it was necessary that an

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official control should be exercised, either by the Treasury or some other authority; and he believed the subject was under the consideration of the Government. As to the proposal which had been made, for including buildings not now named in the Bill, it was worthy of inquiry; and he would be glad to give every assistance in his power. He certainly should be sorry to see the Bill postponed, as it had a good practical object in view.
MR. WILSON PATTENthought it would be scarcely fair to send this Bill before a Select Committee, where new matter might be introduced which would endanger its passing through the House.
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYobjected to the charges being laid upon real property only, seeing that the objects for which they were made were for the benefit of all classes of the community.
SIR G. STRICKLANDsaid, the principle of the Bill was, that one half of the rates for lunatic asylums should be paid by the landlord, and the other half by the tenant; but this proposal was not approved by the House; the Bill therefore required to be rectified, and he thought the proposal of the hon. Member for Montrose a very reasonable one.
MR. E. DENISONthought it somewhat strange that they should be asked to pass a Bill through Committee which did not contain the views of the hon. Gentleman who promoted it. The hon. Gentleman thought the whole charge should be placed upon the owners, but the Bill divided it between the owners and the tenant. Now, that difficulty might be got over if he allowed the Bill to go before a Select Committee.
MR. SOTHERONthought the proposal to send the Bill before a Select Committee would have the effect of indefinitely postponing it; and all that could reasonably be asked of him was, that he should not press the Bill to a third reading till the Select Committee to be proposed by the hon. Member for Montrose had reported. He did not think that this Bill would at all interfere with the one brought forward by the hon. Member for Montrose, which no doubt related to the settlement of a great national question.
MR. E. DENISONwas quite ready to accept the suggestion now made by his hon. Friend, that the Bill should not be pressed through the remaining stages till after the Select Committee had reported. If, however, after the lapse of a certain time the
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Committee should have come to no conclusion, then he might be permitted to go on with the Bill.
MR. HUMEexplained that the object of his Bill was to equalise the assessment of the county rates, and to provide for the better management of the expenditure.
Several Amendments were then agreed to. Bill reported. Bill, as amended, to be considered on Wednesday, 25th April.

CHATTELS PARTITION, AND SALE.
MR. ROUNDELL PALMERmoved for leave to bring in a Bill to authorise, in certain cases, the partition or sale of chattels personal held in joint tenancy or tenancy in common. The hon. and learned Gentleman briefly explained that the object of his Bill was to afford a more effectual remedy than the law at present allowed to a minority of the part owners of a ship, when a disagreement arose between them and the majority as to the employment of that ship. The law, as it at present stood, empowered a majority of the part owners of a ship to employ that ship against the will of the minority; and the minority had no remedy except going to the Admiralty Court and there calling upon the majority to give security, not for any portion of the profits of the voyage, but against any loss that might arise from the particular mode of employing the ship. But even that inadequate remedy could not be obtained by the minority, except under a renunciation of all share in the profits that might accrue from the voyage. If the minority did not avail themselves of the course thus open to them, they would be liable to share in the risk of the loss of the ship, and of the expenses incurred in sending her out, although it was done contrary to their own wishes. He had consulted with several parties connected with the shipping interest at Liverpool, and with many commercial persons in London, as to the remedy to be applied to this case, and he had obtained their approval of the simple remedy which he now wished to embody in the Bill he was desirous of introducing. What he proposed was, to enable the parties who were in the situation he had described to apply to the Court of Chancery in a summary manner by petition for a sale of the joint interest in the ship about the use of which they could not agree, and he proposed to extend that power generally to all chattels personal held in joint tenancy or tenancy in common.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Roundell Palmer and Mr. Cardwell.
The House adjourned at Five o'clock till Monday, the 16h April.