Sitting of 15 June 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Borough Elections (No. 2). 2° Administration of Criminal Justice.
Reported.—Commons Inclosure.
3o Administration of Justice (No. 1); Administration of Justice (No. 2); Protection of Justices from Vexatious Actions.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. W. J. Fox, and other Hon. Members, from a Number of Places, for an Extension of the Elective Franchise—By Mr. Bankes, from several of the Clergy and Laity of the Church of England, for an Alteration of the Law respecting Bishops.—By Mr. Broadley, from the Congregation of Wesleyan Methodists in the Village of North Cave, for a Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Mr. Duncan, from Dundee, in favour of the Places of Worship Sites (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. Lushington, from the Committee of the British Anti-State Church Association, for a Withdrawal of the Regium Donum Grant—By Lord George Bentinck, from Merchants, Planters, and Others, of Ceylon, in favour of Measures of Relief for that Island—By Captain Fordyce, from Aberdeen, for Inquiry into the Excise Laws.—From Electors of Paisley, against any Alteration of the Sugar Duty.—By Mr. Sharman Crawford, from Inhabitants of Smallbridge (Lancaster), in favour of Secular Education.—By Mr. Henry Stuart, from Bedford, for Encouragement to Schools in Connexion with the Church Education Society (Ireland).—By Mr. Henry Berkeley, from Benjamin Webster, Lessee and Manager of the Theatre Royal, Haymarket, for Restricting the Number of Foreign Theatres in the Metropolis.—By Mr. Grogan, from Members of the Committee of the Dublin Mercantile Guardian Association, for Alteration of the Imprisonment for Debt (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. Elliot, from Com missioners of Supply of the County of Roxburgh, for Alteration of the Lunatic Asylums (Scotland) Bill.—By Sir G. Philips, from Guardians of the Poor of the Poole Union (Dorset), for Alteration of the Law respecting Mendicancy.—By Mr. Ker Seymer, from Lyme Regis, against a Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Mr. Hume, from the Marquess of Westmeath, praying the House to afford Relief to the Dublin Post Office.—By

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Mr. Henry Drummond, from the Town Council of Godalming (Surrey), for Alteration of, and by Sir R. H. Inglis, from Inhabitants of the Parish of St. George the Martyr, Queen Square, in favour of, the Public Health Bill.—By Lord G. Bentinck, from the Parish of Kilmaurs, Ayrshire, against the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill (1847); and Marriage (Scotland) Bill (1847).—By Mr. Ewart, from Members of London Mechanics' Institution, for Alteration of the Scientific Societies Bill.

THE SPANISH AMBASSADOR.
MR. G. BANKES, not seeing the noble Lord the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his place, would ask the noble Lord whether the departure of the Spanish Ambassador originated from his dismissal by the Government of Her Britannic Majesty, or whether it was in consequence of an order of recall by his own Government, or from any other circumstance; whether any correspondence would be laid on the Table of the House with regard to his departure; and whether Her Majesty's Government would lay any further correspondence before the House relative to the dismissal of the British Minister from Madrid?
LORD J. RUSSELL: The dismissal of the Spanish Ambassador from the Court of Her Britannic Majesty has resulted from a correspondence which has passed between my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs and the Spanish Minister, and has not been the result of any recall from his own Government. My noble Friend will lay upon the table of the House additional papers, by command of Her Majesty; and the papers in question will relate to the dismissal of Sir H. Bulwer, as well as to the dismissal of the Spanish Minister.

LEICESTER BOROUGH WRIT.
LORD J. RUSSELL, in reference to the notice given by the hon. Member for Northamptonshire of a Motion for the issue of a new writ for the borough of Leicester, appealed to the hon. Member whether he would proceed with his Motion after the notice which had been given by the hon. Baronet opposite, comprising all the cases of vacant boroughs?
MR. STAFFORDwas not surprised at the appeal made to him by the noble Lord, after the unconstitutional course which had been pursued, and the inconveniences it had produced—inconveniences which had now become insufferable. He could not, after the plan which from the outset he had expressed himself determined to pursue, accede to the request. He felt bound
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to persevere with the Motion, in the present uncertainty of the Bill brought in by the hon. Baronet the Member for Flint passing. Since November last eighteen Acts of Parliament had been passed. Of these four were Money Acts; three were Acts for the amendment or elucidation of statutes already in existence; two were the famous Coercion Acts; one was the Superannuation Fund Act; another had reference to a Commission appointed to superintend public works in Ireland; another gave additional time for the construction of certain railways; another sanctioned certain reforms with respect to the Court of Chancery; and the last was the celebrated enactment for the suspension of the constitution of New Zealand. That was all that they had done since the month of November last. They were now in the month of June, and he could not consent to wave his present Motion until the Bill of the hon. Baronet the Member for Flint should be disposed of, for he did not think that there was any immediate prospect of that measure coming under the consideration of the House. Indeed it was evident that a very considerable period must elapse before it could be taken into consideration, for no less than forty-eight Bills had precedence of it. It was by no means creditable to that House that they should have to make the admission that during that prolonged Session nothing had as yet been done to check corruption and repress the practice of bribery at elections beyond the clumsy and coarse device of suspending writs—an expedient which was had recourse to without regard to the size of the constituencies, and irrespectively of the merits of each particular case. No remedial measure was dreamt of until the Bill of a private Member (the Horsham Election Bill) found its way to the table of the House, in company with 48 others, in the middle of the month of June. And it was in reference to a system of legislation so tardy and so unmethodic, that he was called upon to postpone his Motion. He could not accede to any such application. The effect of the system pursued by that House, with reference to the boroughs whose writs were now in abeyance, would be to silence all complaints for the future, and foster corruption rather than to discourage it. Let them look to what had happened in the boroughs of Bewdley and Kinsale. He had not seen the reports which had emanated from Committees of that House with respect to those boroughs, and, therefore,

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had no authority but hearsay on which to rely; but this he knew, that it was very generally understood that the Gentleman who had proposed his noble Friend the Member for the former borough, gave a great entertainment to the constituency at the last election, and that he walked from that entertainment to the polling place. That certainly looked very like treating, but nevertheless there was no petition from Bewdley; and the reason there was not was simply this, that the party in Bewdley who were prejudiced by the "treating" which prevailed at the last election, had sufficient common sense to see that they would not get their own man by petitioning, but that all that would come of a petition would be, that the writ would be suspended, and Bewdley be left without a representative at all. In the case of Kinsale, too, the impression was strong, and of very general prevalence, that corruption and bribery had been practised at the last election. It was said that a certain body of worthy and independent electors, who had not distinguished themselves by any remarkable purity at previous elections, had taken shipping for the new world, and were waiting for the wind, when they heard that a new election was going on. The story went, that on receiving that information, they left their wives and children, disembarked, returned to Kinsale to give one more vote in their country's cause, and having done so, went back to the vessel richer if not better men. He was very far from insinuating that the right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for the Colonies had any cognisance of these proceedings, or gave them his sanction; but certain it was, that common report alleged most positively that they had occurred. No petition, however, was presented, the people of Kinsale being prudently of opinion that it was better to submit to the suspicion of a little corruption than undergo the certain penalty of disfranchisement. The House used to pursue a more judicious and a more equitable course in former years. In the year 1831, a petition was presented alleging that gross bribery, corruption, and treating prevailed in the borough of Liverpool. The writ was in that case suspended, but it was suspended for a limited period, the duration of which was defined. The Committee reported on the 28th of March, 1831; the writ was suspended on the 16th April until the 30th of that month; and on the 30th a new writ was issued. A similar course
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was pursued in the cases of Carrickfergus, Warwick, and Stafford. The writ in those cases was suspended for a specified period, and at the expiration of that period either the punishment of temporary disfranchisement was prolonged, or a new writ was issued. That was an intelligible proceeding; but to advise that certain boroughs should be indefinitely disfranchised until a certain Bill was passed, was to act without justice and without precedent. But the case was still worse, still more intolerable, when they found that the House of Commons used no exertion whatever to pass the Bill, on the passing of which the issuing of the writs was made to depend. He would be no party to such a proceeding; and the less so when he found that the Government were resolved that a Bill of their own on the subject of these borough elections should depend on and go pari passu with the measure introduced by a private Member of that House. He was free to admit that if the writ ought to be suspended in any case, it ought to be supended in the case of Leicester; but he did not see why bribery, which was a statutable offence, should be treated in a different manner from any other statutable offence. And yet it was so, for in the case of bribery the innocent were subjected to the penalty as well as those who, being alone guilty, were alone legally punishable. The population of Leicester was 63,000. At the last election 3,000 electors voted. There were 600 freemen in the town, and although it was proved that some of them had been bribed, it was only fair to admit that the evidence went to show that some of them voted without being bribed, and that others did not vote at all. The majority in favour of Mr. Gardiner was 170, so that the race was close enough between those who held the opinions of the hon. Member for Montrose and those who ventured to think that the institutions of the country were even now worth preserving. But what he wished especially to direct attention to was, that it was distinctly proved before the Committee that all the bribes were distributed at a certain building known as the Reform-office. And who was it gave them out? Why, Mr. Staines, who was a man who kept a public-house known by the imposing designation of "The Rights of the People." It was unquestionable that great distress at prevailed in that borough. The poor-rate amounted to as large a sum as 13 s. in the pound, and there was in certain quarters a strong

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feeling of dissatisfaction with the institutions of the country. He could not bring himself to believe that it was wise or just to keep such a community, at such a period, without any representation in that House. Regard being had to all the circumstances of the case, he was of opinion that he should best discharge his duty by persisting in his determination to take the sense of House on the following resolution:—
"That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a New Writ for the electing of two Burgesses to serve in this present Parliament for the borough of Leicester, in the room of Sir Joshua Walmsley, and Richard Gardiner, Esq., whose Election has been determined to be void."
MR. FREWENopposed the Motion. The hon. Member who brought it forward had stated that he had no connexion with the town of Leicester, and the fact was no doubt as he stated. Had it been otherwise, in all probability he would not have submitted any such Motion. The House had yet to take into consideration the report of the Committee presented only a few days since, in which it was distinctly asserted that many cases of bribery had occurred in that borough. The question for the House was, whether they could entertain that report, and act as the Committee recommended or not. His family had been for some years connected with Leicester county and town, and he did not hesitate to say that it was one of the most corrupt places in the kingdom. In the year 1826 no less a sum than 66,000 l. was expended by three candidates, and bribery to quite as large an extent was practised on occasions of many previous elections. When he was very reluctantly induced, in the year 1839, to offer himself as a candidate for Leicester, he told his committee that he had rather lose the election altogether than that there should be a single case of bribery on his account. A certain number of freemen went and tendered their votes to his committee at a certain price, just as they had done on a recent occasion, the only difference being that they were now offered at the rate of 17 s. 6d. a head, whereas they were offered to his committee at so high a price as 1l. a head. This had gone on for such a length of time that it was quite right that a stop should be put to it at last. He should vote against the issuing of a new writ.
MR. SEYMER, as Chairman of the Select Committee to which had been referred
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the petition in the case of the Leicester election, recommended the House to refrain from issuing a new writ until the evidence taken before the Committee was in the hands of all the Members. It was not fair to the Committee not to pursue such a course. If much delay, however, should occur in the "progress of the Bill introduced by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Flint Boroughs, he should at a future day vote for the issue of a new writ, for he did not think it right that the writ should be kept in abeyance for a definite period. As to the freemen of Leicester, he might be permitted to say that it did not appear to the Committee that a recommendation to disfranchise them would meet the justice of the case. It was true that there were indications of corruption amongst some of them, but there were similar indications amongst the ten-pounders. Orders were given on shopkeepers for hats and other articles of costume, and it appeared that an extensive system of treating prevailed. In short, the case presented features which induced the Committee to believe that it was not expedient that precisely the same course should be adopted with respect to Leicester as had been adopted in the case of Great Yarmouth.
SIR J. PAKINGTONtrusted his hon. Friend the Member for North Northamptonshire would not press his Motion to a division.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLwas of opinion that the hon. Member for North Northamptonshire would have done far better for the interests of those whom he represented, had he acquiesced in the proposal which he had submitted to him. He would then have spared the House much time expended in a rather profitless discussion. The statement made by the hon. Member who was Chairman of the Committee appointed to try the petition in the case of the Leicester election, and the wish which that hon. Gentleman expressed that the writ should not be issued until the evidence taken before that Committee should be in the hands of the Members, met his entire approbation, and he had no doubt that they would also command the approval of the House. He would take leave, however, to say, that so far from the suspension of writs being an unusual and unconstitutional proceeding, it was a proceeding in justification of which numerous precedents might be cited. So far back as a few years after the Revolution, that was to say in the years 1697 and 1698, in cases

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where there were reports presented from Committees of the whole House, that corruption or corrupt practices prevailed in any borough, the House proceeded to suspend the writs. That had occurred in the case of Aldborough, when the writ was suspended from December 1696, to December, 1697, being one entire year; and it was only on the presentation of a petition from all the inhabitants, promising that the elections should be conducted with greater purity for the future, that the House was induced to consent to the issue of a new writ. A similar occurrence had taken place in the cases of Bishop's Castle and other boroughs in the beginning of the reign of Queen Anne; and many instances were recorded in the reigns of George I., George II., and George III. So well confirmed was the practice, as well by Act of Parliament as by precedent, that in the year 1820, he being an independent Member of that House, finding that there were many boroughs with respect to which inquiries were pending, brought in a Bill to provide that the writs should be suspended for those boroughs during the period of the then approaching dissolution, and that the constituencies should not proceed to the election of any Members until an opportunity should be afforded to the new Parliament to inquire into the charges alleged against such boroughs. Lord Castlereagh, who at that time possessed great influence in the House, and could have stopped the Bill at any moment, so far from resisting it, consented to its introduction. The Bill was accordingly introduced, and he believed it received the consent of both Houses of Parliament. It was clear, therefore, that it was incorrect to state that it was an uncommon, unprecedented, or unconstitutional proceeding to suspend, under certain circumstances, the writs for certain boroughs. With respect to the remedial measure that had been proposed, he did not hesitate to admit that it was highly desirable that the decision of the House should be taken as soon as possible, as to whether they approved or disapproved of the principle of the Bill that had beer introduced by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Flint boroughs. If the louse should think fit to approve of the principle of that Bill, the sense of the majority ought to prevail, and the Bill ouglt to be carried forward without delay. If the House did not approve of the principle of that Bill, he would then go of with the Bill with respect to the borough of Horsham,
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and see whether its provisions might not be enlarged. But certainly the House ought to declare its opinion on the subject one way or another. The plan of hon. Members opposite appeared to be to throw every possible obstruction in the way of the Bill of the hon. Member for Flint, and then to make the tardy progress of the measure an excuse for bringing forward such Motions as the present. The proceeding, however, was one to which it was to be hoped the House would not extend its sanction. They ought to decide on the earliest opportunity, whether or not they would proceed with the Bill.
After some further debate,
The House divided:—Ayes 6; Noes 129: Majority 123.

List of the AYES.

Baldock, E. H.

Sidney, Ald.

Benbow, J.

Hudson, G.

TELLERS.

O'Connor, F.

Stafford, A.

Sibthorp, Col.

Goring, C.

List of the NOES.

Adair, H. E.

Frewen, C. H.

Adair, R. A. S.

Fuller, A. E.

Aglionby, H. A.

Glyn, G. C.

Anson, hon. Col.

Grace, O. D. J.

Armstrong, R. B.

Granger, T. C.

Bellew, R. M.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Benett, J.

Grey, R. W.

Bernal, R.

Guest, Sir J.

Birch, Sir T. B.

Hallyburton, Lord J. F.

Bowring, Dr.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Boyd, J.

Hastie, A.

Boyle, hoc. Col.

Hayter, W. G.

Bramston, T. W.

Headlam, T. E.

Brotherton, J.

Heathcote, G. J.

Cardwell, E.

Henry, A.

Carew, W. H. P.

Herbert, H. A.

Chaplin, W. J.

Hill, Lord M.

Christy, S.

Hood, Sir A.

Clay, J.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Clifford, H. M.

Hume, J.

Cobden, R.

Jervis, Sir J.

Cochrane, A. D. R. W. B.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Cocks, T. S.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Lewis, G. C.

Crawford, W. S.

Lincoln, Earl of

Darner, hon. Col.

Lushington, C.

Davie, Sir H. R. F.

Macnaghten, Sir E.

Dawson, hon. T. V.

M'Gregor, J.

D'Eyncourt. rt. hn. C. T.

Mangles, R. D.

Divett, E.

Martin, J.

Dodd, G.

Matheson, Col.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Duncan, G.

Miles, W.

Dundas, Adm.

Milner, W. M E.

Edwards, H.

Moffatt, G.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Morgan, H. K. G.

Estcourt, J. B. B.

Morpeth, Visct.

Evans, J.

Mowatt, F.

Fordyce, A. D.

Mulgrave, Earl of

Fox, W. J.

Norreys, Lord

Freestun, Col.

O'Brien, J.

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O'Connell, M. J.

Spooner, R.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Strickland, Sir G.

Pakington, Sir J.

Stuart, Lord D.

Palmer, R.

Stuart, H.

Parker, J.

Sullivan, M.

Pattison, J.

Talfourd, Serj.

Pearson, C.

Thompson, Col.

Pechell, Capt.

Thornely, T.

Pendarves, E. W. W.

Tollemache, hon. F. J

Perfect, R.

Townshend, Capt

Pinney, W.

Tufnell, H.

Plowden, W. H. C.

Turner, E.

Pugh, D.

Tynte, Col.

Raphael, A.

Verney, Sir H.

Ricardo, O.

Vivian, J. H.

Rich, H.

Ward, H. G.

Richards, R.

Watkins, Col.

Robartes, T. J. A.

Westhead, J. P.

Roche, E. B.

Wilson, J.

Romilly, Sir J.

Wood, W. P.

Russell, Lord J.

Wrightson, W. B.

Salwey, Col.

Wyvill, M.

Scholefield, W.

TELLERS.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Seymer, H. K.

Smith, M. T.

Trollope, Sir J.

HEALTH OF TOWNS BILL.
Order of the Day for the further consideration of the Report on the Health of Town Bill read,
The EARL of LINCOLNsaid, it would be in the recollection of the House, that when the Bill was in Committee, he gave notice that it was his intention to move Amendments on the third and fourth clauses, and it was suggested that he should postpone them till the bringing up of the report. He begged now to state the reasons which had influenced him in abandoning that intention, and in making no opposition to the constitution of the Board which the noble Lord now proposed. He (Lord Lincoln) had always objected to the board as originally constructed, because he thought that not only its probable but its necessary tendency would be to extend the central authority to the details of local government in a greater degree than would be either advisable or palatable to the country at large. At the same time, he had expressed a strong opinion that it was necessary there should be a certain amount of central authority exercised by means of inspection, with a view to enforce activity where negligence existed, and to give advice where knowledge was wanting, so as to facilitate the operations which it was the intention of the Bill to effect. If the Bill had stood as when it was originally introduced, the objections he brought against that part of it would still have existed; and certainly, looking to the immense alterations which had been introduced into the Bill by the noble Lord on the various occasions
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on which it had been before the Committee, he thought that the noble Lord would himself now entirely agree with him that a central board would have been unnecessary, and that the duties might have devolved, without any additional aid, on some of the existing offices of Government, if those duties had been confined to a slight supervision. But since he gave the notice to which he had referred, there had been an entire reconstruction of the machinery of the Bill, by a few simple alterations, which had wisely, as he thought, been adopted by the noble Lord—so that it was not only desirable, but absolutely necessary, that there should be a new office to superintend the operation of the Bill, because, looking to the precedent of the Enclosure Act, which was passed three or four years back, he was satisfied that it would now be impossible either for the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, or any other existing officer of Government, to carry into effect the provisions of the Bill, particularly as regarded the preliminary inquiries which were necessary in certain cases. The ground had, therefore, been completely cut from under his feet in regard to the Amendments he had intended to propose. He agreed with the noble Lord in the alterations he had made, with a single exception. The noble Lord, in consenting to the Amendments which had been proposed by the hon. Member for Oxfordshire, had undoubtedly, in one respect, gone greatly beyond his (Lord Lincoln's) views as to the limitation of central authority. He did regret that the noble Lord had consented to abandon the power of supervision by central authority, in the way of local inspection; for, looking to the experience they had had of the exercise of this power in regard to gaols, factories, and schools, he considered that great benefit had resulted from it; and he could not help thinking that when (as he had no doubt would be the case with a measure of so comprehensive a character) the noble Lord came to Parliament to get it amended, he would find that experience had proved that the power of inspection should not have been abandoned. With this exception, he highly approved of the other alterations which the noble Lord had adopted, and would not therefore press his intended Amendments.
Several verbal Amendments having been agreed to,
CAPTAIN PECHELL CAPTAIN PECHELL moved an Amendment to strike out all that part of the Bill

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which gave owners and ratepayers more than one vote each. He had no objection to give owners an additional vote where they were occupiers also. The effect of the proposed system of plurality of votes would be, that the richer classes or the manufacturers would create some monster nuisance, and then by their twelve votes they would overpower and outvote the poorer classes.
MR. HUMEthought it extremely desirable to make this Bill as popular as possible; but if the scale of voting adopted by the new poor-law were retained as proposed, great discontent would be caused. One great cause of the dislike with which the new poor-law was regarded in Middlesex arose from whole streets being swamped by the plurality of votes enjoyed by some of the owners of property. He hoped the Government would consent to give every individual ratepayer one vote only.
VISCOUNT MORPETHreminded the House that this point had been very fully argued and considered in Committee, and the House had decided by a very large majority that the present mode of rating should be retained. Apart from the reasons which might be urged in favour of the mode of voting provided by the Bill, he did not think it would be respectful to the House to cancel their former decision. Property was very largely dealt with by the Bill, and it therefore gave to owners and occupiers of property that protection for their proportionate interests which the plurality of votes was intended to confer.
MR. S. CRAWFORDwould strongly support the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Captain Pechell.
The House divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill:—Ayes 46; Noes 18: Majority 28.

List of the AYES.

Anson, hon. Col.

Grey, R. W.

Armstrong, R. B.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Arundel and Surrey, Earl of

Hawes, B.

Hay, Lord J.

Baines, M. T.

Hayter, W. G.

Bellew, R. M.

Henley, J. W.

Bernal, R.

Hobhouse, rt. hon. Sir J.

Christy, S.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Jervis, Sir J.

Cubitt, W.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Divett, E.

Lacy, H. C.

Drummond, H.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Lewis, G. C.

Forster, M.

Mackinnon, W. A.

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Maher, N. V.

Russell, F. C. H.

Masterman, J.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Somerville rt. hon. Sir W.

Mitchell, T. A.

Spooner, R.

Morpeth, Visct.

Turner, E.

Newdegate, C. N.

Turner, G. J.

O'Brien, J.

Wood, rt. hn. Sir C.

Parker, J.

Wyld, J.

Raphael, A.

TELLERS.

Romilly, Sir J.

Tufnell, H.

Russell, Lord J.

Hill, Lord M.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Perfect, R.

Clay, J.

Salwey, Col.

Clay, Sir W.

Scholefield, W.

Cobden, R.

Stuart, Lord D.

Crawford, W. S.

Thompson, Col.

D'Eyncourt, rt. hon. C.

Thornely, T.

Evans, J.

Urquhart, D.

Fox, W. J.

Hall, Sir B.

TELLEES.

Henry, A.

Hume, J.

Pearson, C.

Pechell, Capt.

Report agreed to.

BOROUGH ELECTIONS BILL.
On the question that the Speaker leave the chair,
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, his objections to the measure were not in the slightest degree of a personal kind, for he could tell the noble Lord the Prime Minister, and the right hon. Gentleman, that he wished all the inquiry which that Bill was calculated to give. He objected, however, to such a measure as this being brought in by a private individual under the sanction of the noble Lord the Prime Minister of the country, and yet who was not there personally to give his measure his support. "Conscience," it was said, "makes cowards of us all." Where, he asked, was the noble Lord? Was there any fear felt as to an inquiry into Horsham? Where was the Attorney General? Did his conscience smite him when he heard the name of Horsham mentioned, and had he fled from the discussion? The hon. Mover of the Bill (Sir John Hanmer) had formerly sat on that—the Opposition—side of the House; but now he had, cameleon-like, changed colour; but he once represented a place notorious for its corruption; and those, he said, who sat for dirty places should not seek to purify those more pure than themselves. As to this Bill it was one grossly partial in its operation; he complained of it on that account as well as of its inquisitorial character; for it went beyond the threshold of that which an Englishman once considered as his castle—a man's own home. By this Bill a man

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was called to betray the confidence reposed in him by his friend, and to open his very book to the examination of the Commissioners; and by whom were the Commissioners to be appointed? In point of fact, by the Government, although nominally by the Bill. But should not an inquiry like this be impartial? What, he asked, became of the secret service money? What was the mode of distributing the 36,000 l? How much of that was expended in bribery by both Governments? Let the noble Lord and the Chancellor of the Exchequer come to that table, and if there were to be a searching inquiry, he would say let the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the persons connected with the Treasury state that neither directly nor indirectly was there any money expended in the city of London or elsewhere. Let the Lords of the Admiralty, too, declare that there were no promises for places in the Customs. There was to be no impartial inquiry; not in an open court, nor trial by jury; but accusations were to be preferred upon the assertion of some individual, who might have been disappointed in his expectations. If this was to be the mode of dealing with the free exercise of the franchise, what were the circumstances in which any man would be safe? Why, the commonest Christian duties would be regarded as bribery. But he would tell the Commissioners to their faces, as he now told the House, that he had performed those duties, and that he would continue to do so, let the consequences be what they might. In spite of the Commissioners, he should exercise his power and influence as he and his forefathers had done, and as they were bound to do. He was not a man who would sanction bribery and corruption; but what was fair for Peter was fair for Paul. Therefore do not let them be partial, but treat all alike, and not select nine boroughs because a Committee of that House had reported them, whilst they left Horsham to remain for future consideration. His opinion was, that if the noble Lord could by any means quash all inquiry into the case of Horsham, it was his intention so to do. He should oppose the Bill in all its stages, and if it passed that House he should rely on another place, where there was more purity to be found, to treat the measure as it had done other Bills in the course of the present Session.
House in Committee.
COLONEL SIBTHORP COLONEL SIBTHORP moved that the
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Chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit again.
[The Committee divided; Colonel Sibthorp was appointed one of the Tellers for the Ayes; but no Member appearing to be a second Teller for the Ayes, the Chairman declared the Noes had it.]
On the 1st Clause,
MR. BANKEShad an Amendment to move, which in reality involved the whole principle of the Bill. The measure was a most serious one, and well deserved the attention of the House. He must confess that he had heard nothing to remove the objections which he had formerly urged against it. If there was no other Mode of preventing bribery, he could understand why it might be brought forward; but having seen the remedy proposed by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, he could only ask why that remedy was not applied? He objected to the Bill in the first place because it vested such large and extraordinary powers in the hands of those Commissioners. He did not suppose that they would not be fit and proper persons; but, exercising such functions, they ought to be not only honest, but, like the Judges of the land, above suspicion. Commissioners had been appointed under the Borough District Bill previously to the Reform Bill, and Commissioners had also been appointed to inquire into the Municipal Corporation Bill, previously to the passing of that measure. What was the result? In neither case was the result satisfactory. One instance which respected the first-named Commissioners he would mention. The Commissioners under the Borough District Dill recommended the disfranchising of Wareham and Dorchester. He (Mr. Bankes) strongly opposed that recommendation, and brought forward a Motion in the House to that effect, but it was lost by an immense majority. Such was the influence of the recommendation of the Commissioners. But ultimately those very boroughs were permitted to enjoy the franchise; because it was discovered that the statements which he had urged were perfectly true, and that the reports of the Commissioners, whether biassed by party or not, were at all events founded on error. The House might look upon the franchise of a town as a small matter, but those who possessed it did not view it in the same light. They regarded it as a dignity, as a high and important trust. It was desirable that they should continue so to consider

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it, and to view any interference with this precious privilege with the most jealous feelings. But the Bill would appoint Commissioners, who would have to deal with this most important privilege. And again he asked who were these Commissioners? They would not be men of any great eminence in their profession. Men of legal eminence would not accept of the post. None except members of the legal profession would be qualified to exercise its functions, whilst the emoluments offered were not such as to tempt men of standing or eminence to desert the courts, and adopt so comparatively ill-rewarded an office, and one too, be it recollected, of so transitory a nature. Again, Commissioners who were appointed by the Government would be always open to the suspicion of party bias. [The SOLICITOR GENERAL: They are appointed by the Chief Justice of the Court of Queen's Bench.] But even so, how could this Government, or any Government, induce men of eminence to leave the foremost ranks of the profession for the remuneration they offered? It was not among the silk gowns they could make their selections; and barristers of unknown reputation would be liable to suspicion of a bias towards the Government of the day, though such suspicion might be unmerited. But it might be said, "Their opinion (meaning the Commissioners) is not to influence the House of Commons." Well, then, if not, of what use were their reports? Either they were or they were not to carry weight and authority by their decision. If the decision of the Commissioners was to influence the decision of that House, then the Commissioner ought to be a man of high attainments—of a high position—upon whom no suspicion could rest. If they were not, then the Commissioner and his army of clerks, for which the country was to pay, were wholly useless. The Commissioners were to have five guineas a day, Why this mode of payment was a bonus to prolong the investigation. This court, as it was called, was to have powers of the most inquisitorial nature—powers which should be most delicately exercised, and which it required all the wisdom and discretion of the superior courts to exercise in a proper or even tolerable manner. They were to issue summonses for the attendance of all parties whom they might choose to summon; and matters of the most delicate nature—matters involving breaches of honour, and trust, and confidence—all
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were to be referred to these inquisitorial gentlemen. In short, the powers of the Courts of Chancery, Queen's Bench, and Exchequer, were all to be concentrated in the focus of this new commission of one or two gentlemen sitting in a private room, and examining into matters affecting the highest and most dignified privileges which a British subject could possess. Points of honour might, and no doubt would, be involved in those inquiries, and books and documents of the most confidential nature might be demanded. He recollected a case where he (Mr. Bankes) had moved for the production of the books of a banker, and also for the attendance of a banker at the bar of the House. After the announcement of his intention, he received a communication indirectly addressed to him from this banker, in which it was intimated that his great anxiety of mind might lead to the affection of his senses, if the Motion was persevered in. He (Mr. Bankes) without swerving from what he considered to be his duty, did not persevere in demanding those disclosures, which would, as it appeared, have affected so seriously the honourable feelings of that individual. Why not pass a Bill empowering the House of Commons to appoint Committees in each case, and to examine witnesses upon oath, and to which there would be no objection? He knew that several Committees had decided upon unseating Members because of what was called "treating;" and this, legally speaking, is an offence; but surely some distinction ought to be made between the secret, base, and corrupt practice of bribery, to which he was utterly opposed, and the jovial though unlawful act of treating a friend and supporter to a pint of porter or a glass of brandy and water. In fact, this construction of what was termed treating was pushed too far, and was, in its present interpretation, revolting to the good sense and good feeling of Englishmen. Within what time could they hope to get any judgment in these inquiries? The Bill had not yet reached a very advanced stage. The Commissioners could not, in all probability, be appointed until the end of the Session; and the writs, in all these cases, were, it seems, to be suspended until the next Session. Then the House would have to consider all these reports, which would be the subject of great discussion; and it would be found that those reports, instead of the end, were only the beginning of the investigation. A measure more un-

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worthy of any Government had, in his opinion, never been brought forward.
SIR J. HANMERsaid, that the course which was now proposed to be pursued was the same which was adopted in the case of the borough of Sudbury. Upon that occasion the whole question was fully considered, and the noble Lord now at the head of the Government, and the right hon. Gentleman who was at that period at the head of the Government, expressed their opinion in favour of appointing Commissioners. At that time no objection was made, that by taking such a course it would be derogatory to the dignity of Parliament. Neither was it contrary to the opinion of the other House of Parliament. The Bill was acted upon, and when the evidence came before the House, Parliament was enabled to do that which the constitution and the interests of the public demanded with respect to that borough. The course now proposed was not, therefore, a new one. It was warranted by the conduct of the last Parliament; that it should be held up as derogatory to the House, seemed to him perfectly unreasonable. He did not think that these were the times, nor was this the day, when the House ought to run the risk of its being considered in the country that it had any other intention than that of pursuing a direct and stringent course to put down bribery and corruption. The hon. Gentleman had said, that although this commission was to be appointed by the Lord Chief Justice, still it would be considered to have a political bias. He did not know why that should be the case, but he would ask whether the Election Committees of that House were not accused of having a political bias? ["No, no!"] He begged pardon; he did not mean to impute such a bias, but must repeat that the Election Committees were accused of having a political bias. He remembered a notorious case—the borough of Nottingham, when an hon. Baronet was chairman of that Committee. That hon. Baronet was repeatedly and warmly accused of having had a very unjust political bias, and in consequence of that bias of having unseated a certain hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman had said that the people took a pride in the exercise of the franchise, and that it would very much wound that honest and dignified pride which they ought to feel when they saw a Commissioner coming down to inquire what had taken place in their borough. He was certainly sur-
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prised to hear such an objection. This Commission was to be carried into effect with regard to boroughs which were declared to have given a dishonest return, and of not having exercised the franchise with that feeling of honour and pride which he could wish every elector to exhibit. Those who acted from pure and disinterested motives could have no right to be offended at an inquiry instituted openly to detect the impure and the corrupt. On the contrary, all honourable men would be glad to see the present corrupt system purified and corrected, in order that the present disgraceful scenes might be totally annihilated. He had heard, in the course of the debate, a distinction attempted to be drawn between the honest and the dishonest voters in the same constituency. It was a very favourite argument—and one which was continually repeated—that looking at the evidence taken before the Committees, it appeared that a very small number of corrupt acts, of one sort or other, were on any occasion actually proved. In the first place, he need hardly remark that the number of cases proved before the Committees went for very little. But he did not believe that honest voters, as they were called—men who were so far honest as that they did not sell their votes—were without fault in this matter; for they did not exercise the influence they ought, for the purpose of diminishing these evils. Speak to them, and they would tell you "that such and such things had always gone on, and must and would go on; that they could not prevent them—that they could only tell you frankly the state of the case, and leave you to judge whether, with your eyes open, you will stand for that place?" and, if not, they would find some other gentleman—on the first occasion nobody knew what took place—and so the practice would go on. In several of the boroughs meetings had been held in support of the Motion of the hon. Member (Mr. Hume), fixed for next Tuesday, and people spoke for this or that sort of suffrage, or mode of giving it; but they had not yet stood manfully before their fellow-townsmen as they ought, saying, "The time is come for a purer exercise of this great right of citizenship; the possession of it is claimed by many who have it not, and we may expect some impatience on their part, and it is incumbent upon us to do all in our power to put down corruption in this borough, and in order to that to make it our first and main consideration, and now

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that a certain line of political and fiscal policy is agreed on, to put aside all other political questions, and avail ourselves of the present lull in party strife, and unite to put down this venality." He did not know an instance in which that course had been taken, and he did know instances in which it ought. He knew instances in which questions arose at the last election with regard to very considerable places, whether or no particular individuals should stand—he knew that particular individuals had every solicitation to stand; and the reason was publicly stated, that they did not choose to stand for that place because they knew they could not do so without being implicated in corrupt practices. There seemed to be nothing, then, in this argument about "offending a just pride," either with regard to those who were palpably dishonest, or those who were called honest electors. The hon. Member (Mr. Bankes) objected that Parliament would be acting upon the opinion of the Commissioner; but that was not so. The Commissioner would get evidence, and on that evidence draw up a proper report, upon which Parliament would act according to its judgment, as it might think fit. Then the objection of expense was raised, and a return of the cost of some past inquiries had been moved for; but those were inquiries before Committees of that House, and surely expense was a matter of secondary consideration compared with the object in view.
MR. ANSTEYsaid, it appeared that the object of the present Bill was not what it had been originally stated to be by the hon. Baronet who had just sat down. It was no longer a Bill for the purpose of securing a judicial inquiry into the delinqencies of particular boroughs, but for the purpose of giving effect to the objects of the hon. Member for Montrose, who in a few days would bring forward a measure for the utter extinction of the small constituencies. According to the hon. Baronet, the dishonest voters and the honest were equally to blame—the former for their dishonesty, the latter for their negligence; so that, whether they belonged to the first or the second class, they were to be delivered up now to the discretion of some obscure and briefless barrister, and hereafter to suffer disfranchisement. This was the punishment the hon. Baronet proposed for those who, having tempted him and others to become candidates on former occasions, had not been able to ensure him and them
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the coveted seat, without some of that corruption which, it was to be hoped, he was always as unwilling as now to encourage. He (Mr. Anstey) would not follow the hon. Baronet into the cases to which he had alluded, but which he had not specified. He could not doubt the truth of the representations made by one so much better informed than himself as to the extent of venality in the constituencies formerly represented by the hon. Baronet. Into those cases he would not go, because in the first place the hon. Baronet had not stated what he meant; and in the second place, he was not locally acquainted, and was not aware of the amount of venality which prevailed in the various constituencies which the hon. Member had represented. But he trusted the House would take into its consideration that these constituencies were no longer represented by the hon. Baronet, and that it did not appear from the reports of the Committee upon the table of the House, that these constituencies were any longer stained with corrupt practices. As to the other boroughs, which it was proposed by this Bill to disfranchise—the boroughs which were described in Clause 17, but not named in the Act or the schedule—he had a question to put, not to the hon. Baronet, but to the two other Members whose names were on the back of this Bill—and to ask them to tell him, and to tell the House, what great offence had these constituencies committed that they should be deprived of that institution which lovers of liberty, like the hon. Member for Montrose and the hon. Member for Hull, had been in the habit of regarding as the chief birthright of Englishmen—trial by jury? For the inquiry was not only to be conducted by this possibly incapable barrister, but the parties were to be deprived of all control over his exercise of those tremendous functions. Not only was an inquisition set up, but trial by jury was in terms taken away; everything was submitted to the absolute and unenlightened discretion of one barrister; and none but a barrister of small practice and small means was likely to take this precarious appointment, that might last only a few weeks, and yet would withdraw him from the ordinary haunts of his profession. These powers were such as were not enjoyed by any court of law, not even by the highest court—the High Court of Parliament. The Bill took away the right, which every client had, to be sheltered by the professional privilege of

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his attorney or solicitor: it took away from a man the privilege which, according to the present practice in Westminster Hall, such person had, of being permitted to pour his sorrows into the breast of his adviser, without exposing himself to the consequences of that adviser being called upon to violate the seal under which the revelation was made. This Bill, emanating from a liberal party—from Members supposed to be devoted to the great cause of the people—had hitherto met with no opposition whatever, excepting from a party who had been too frequently branded as the enemies of the people, and the friends of arbitrary power. He felt that he should not discharge his duty if he did not pledge himself to resist, by every constitutional means in his power, the passing of the Bill. He differed from the bon. Baronet (Sir J. Hanmer) as to the manner in which this Bill ought to be debated, considering, as he did, that the whole principle of the Bill must properly be discussed on the first clause, which appointed certain persons to make certain inquiries. Now, if on looking through the Bill he (Mr. Anstey) had found one single provision made for an inquiry which deserved the indulgent consideration of the House, he would bare postponed his censure of the clauses obnoxious to censure until they came under examination. But when he found throughout the whole compass of the Bill not one clause which was not obnoxious—not one inquiry directed which was not in its nature unconstitutional, and partial in its operation—he thought that he was bound to take his stand with the hon. and learned Member behind him (Mr. Bankes), and to debate the whole Bill upon the clause for nominating those Commissioners by whom such inquiries were to be prosecuted, and "the purposes of the Act" accomplished. He would not repeat what had been so ably said by the hon. and learned Member behind him (Mr. Bankes). He would confine himself to a point which that hon. and learned Gentleman had omitted to present to the House, probably from a consideration that the attention of the House must have been already-drawn to matters so obvious and glaring. He begged to call the attention of the House to the 10th Clause, which offered a direct premium to perjury. It was called an indemnity clause; but it was no such thing. It was a clause offering a reward to parties to come forward and give the required evidence. It stated that whoever should
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come forward and give evidence before the Commission, would be held free from all the penal consequences which otherwise might have resulted from the commission of certain offences at any election. Now, supposing some voter had been guilty of bribery at some former election—for the clause specified no particular election—and for which he was liable to be prosecuted—[The SOLICITOR GENERAL: There is the Statute of Limitation.] No doubt there is the Statute of Limitation. But he was supposing a case where the statute had not run, and where the circumstances of guilt did not admit of the culprit's pleading that statute effectually. [An Hon. MEMBER: You cannot go back to a former election.] He could assure the hon. Member that his law was erroneous. If the period of limitation had not elapsed, it signified nothing whether a new election had or had not taken place—whether a new Parliament was or was not sitting. The parties might still be prosecuted in a court of criminal justice. Well, then, suppose some voter in Lincoln or Hull had been guilty of bribery at some former election, and was liable to a penal action and forfeiture—at the suit of the Crown or a private informer—the man had only to come forward and commit perjury, and swear that at the last election he acted as the agent or the accomplice of some candidate in giving or receiving a bribe; and having in this way complied with the conditions of the clause, he was not only freed from all consequences of his former offence, but became a witness, upon whose testimony the borough itself might be disfranchised. The whole Bill was open to similar objections. As to the future, it was provided that the same machinery should be set in motion under similar circumstances; and anybody could easily foresee the handle which hon. Gentlemen opposite—Liberals as they were—would make of that power in the way of extinguishing small constituencies. The 17th Clause provided, that with respect to future elections, the Speaker should appoint other Commissioners to act with the person appointed under the first clause; and whenever a small borough was accused of treating, some hon. Member would be sure to move the suspension of the writ, and the same process would be followed. It was not difficult to foresee that not a single small constituency would obtain its writ, and this would be found a convenient mode of forcing on the great scheme of reform which the hon. Member

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for Montrose was to bring forward in the course of another week. But was this a just proceeding? If this Bill, however, was to extend to cases in posse, why should it not extend to some great and notorious cases which had really occurred, like that of Galway? The Marquess of Clanricarde, a Cabinet Minister, was charged upon petition, and also by hon. Members in their places in that House, with interference at a former election for Gal way; and those charges were never answered. It might be true that these charges rested upon hearsay and rumour; but what had the hon. Baronet better than hearsay and rumour to justify his proceeding against Horsham and some other of the places comprehended in his Bill? The hon. Baronet included at least two boroughs in his Bill, because treating was charged against them; but, with all respect for the right hon. Member for Tamworth, and his Act of Parliament, he (Mr. Anstey) would contend that treating was only malum quia prohibitum. No purist ever pretended that it was malum in se. He denied that treating and bribery could be regarded, under any aspect, as offences equal in degree. Bribery was an offence against the laws of God and man; treating had only been rendered an offence by Act of Parliament. He would illustrate the working of the law of treating by what took place at the Youghal election. There were about thirty voters too honest to take a bribe, although it had been offered; but yet, owing to the failure of their means of subsistence, too poor to live without Government aid. These poor people were in the daily receipt of rations of Indian corn, and on Saturday they received double allowance. The election took place on a Saturday; but so anxious were his Election Committee to guard against the law of treating being infringed, that they were actually obliged to withhold from the poor creatures a slice of bread and a drink of water, because if such refreshment had been given to one, it would have been held as given to all; and if it had, a handle would have been given to the hon. Baronet (Sir John Hanmer) to get up a case against the election and the constituency. He held that he should not discharge his duty to his own constituents, if he did not avail himself of every constitutional means to defeat the Bill. The only result of this sort of legislation would be to weaken the force of the laws that were made, by confounding the distinction which poor men
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now drew in their: own minds between right and wrong. He should certainly use every endeavour to resist the further progress of so objectionable a measure.
MR. HUDSONhad been anxious to hear the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) say something on this Bill; but he seemed to be enjoying a repose which, no doubt, he very much needed, and which he did not mean to disturb by anything he said relative to this Bill. He should have liked also to hear the Attorney General in reply to the speech of the hon. Member for Youghal, whose observations on the Bill were certainly such as to excite alarm in the minds of those who, like him, did not pretend to judge of the working of the law. They were about to direct inquiry into the conduct of certain constituencies; but the hon. Baronet who introduced the Bill had not gone into any detail as to the charges against those constituencies. He had never attempted to make out a case beyond that of a general one of corruption against certain constituencies; and the presumption on his side of the House certainly was, that the hon. Baronet was merely speaking from the experience he had obtained of the different constituencies he had himself represented. He had no doubt that, if he had told his own experience, he would have given them more information than they were likely to obtain from the Commissioner who was to be appointed, probably at a great expense, under the Bill. It would have been but fair if the hon. Baronet had told them some of the secrets of the prison-house. He had been on both sides of the House; probably he knew the secrets on that (the Conservative) side, and no doubt he had been let into the secrets of the prison-house on the other side. The hon. Baronet talked about purity; but all of them liked purity, and admired virtue in any shape. It was not possible, however, to obtain perfection in this world; and therefore, as practical men; they shut their eyes to many things they were unable to prevent. If a law could be so framed as to make every man honest, it would be very desirable to introduce it. Everybody knew, however, that such a thing was altogether impracticable; and that so long as the world existed, and the frailties of human nature were what they were, such purity was out of the question. The Bill of the hon. Baronet referred to certain boroughs; but no Member would venture to say that those boroughs were worse than others. They

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were brought forward only because it so happened that certain parties had petitioned against them. There was nothing against them but the miserable charge of treating; but he would ask if they imagined that money in treating was the only means of corruption? There were many other means of corruption besides that. Suppose he wont down to a constituency and told them he was about to confer impossibilities upon them by the adoption of certain measures, though he in his conscience knew that they would be productive of no good at all; suppose he was to make the most magnificent promises that he would confer immense benefits upon them, was not that corruption calculated to lead away a whole borough as much as money or treating? Why, the borough of Sunderland had been largely treated to such fine promises as these by the Members of the Anti-Corn-Law League, including the hon. Member for Manchester, and eight or ten more, who held out to the constituency of Sunderland the great advantages they would derive from the abolition of the corn laws—all of them great promises, which they must have known were perfectly fallacious. But there was another kind of bribery that was included in the power of property. The noble Lord opposite had sometimes found his way into that House through the influences of property; and there could be no question that in some boroughs parties had been returned solely through the influence of property. He did not find fault with this; but why was it not proposed to make inquiry into that kind of corruption? If the Gentlemen opposite were such firm believers in the principles they were so often urging, why not bring them into practical operation in that House? Why did the noble Lord not tell his supporters that he would not give this or that place, or reward any man for his support with such places as a recordership, unless he was superior in qualifications to any other man in the House? They all knew that such places were given to those who supported the Government; but why should not the noble Lord follow, in this respect, the course he wished to sec adopted with reference to constituencies? How many hon. Members of that House had received appointments under the Crown only because they gave their support to the Government of the day? He did not find fault with this, nor did he say the present Government was different in this respect from any other; but he wished to know
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why the principle should be different there from what it was wished to be among the constituencies? The Attorney General, he understood, repudiated this Bill; and certainly he should like to hear the Solicitor General answer some of the statements of the hon. Member for Youghal. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to deny an assertion put forward by that hon. Gentleman; but having denied it, he thought it but fair that he should explain to the House the grounds on which he acted. He considered that if this Bill was adopted it would create heartburnings and ill-feeling in many towns, which would not be compensated by any advantages that might result from the measure. The hon. Member for Montrose, in his green old age, was about to submit to the House an extensive measure of reform. Why, then, should the House now sanction the appointment of Commissions to inquire into the gift of a few shillings to a few poor electors? Why should they send Commissioners, who would receive five guineas a day, into the country to inquire whether the present of a new hat was intended to influence a vote? They had been told that the present Parliament was an economical Parliament; but he could not think it was so if it sanctioned the expenditure of the public money about such matters as these. He must say, that he had seen no movement in the direction of economy during the present Session. The Government had, in a very convenient manner, delegated their authority to Committees, but these Committees had not yet made any report to the House. He knew something about the expense of election inquiries. He once stood before a Committee of that House for three days, and answered 1,200 questions. He knew that every lawyer employed had five guineas a day. He was not so wide awake then as he was now, and he only got a guinea for three days, and outside coach expenses. He believed that inquiry did not cost les 3 than 7,000 l., and the result was that a large blue book was laid on the table, and heart burnings were excited which were not allayed for years. The fact was, that an attempt was made to get up a case against the poor freemen. It was true that, for a length of time, these poor people might have been receiving small sums from the Members. Perhaps 200 or 300 persons might be found in a constituency of 4,000 or 5,000, who had received what some people called a "bribe;" but the same thing was done

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by both parties, and the recipients of these sums did not look upon them as bribes. He must say that he had seen instances of as great virtue, of as stern integrity, and of as determined independence, on the part of great numbers of these freemen as he had ever witnessed among other persons. He did not see the noble Member for Falkirk (Lord Lincoln) in his place; but he remembered that a large paper was sent down into the country, at the time to which he had been alluding, giving the names of those who voted for the freemen in red ink, and those who voted against them in black. The name of the noble Member for Falkirk was then among those printed in red ink, and the names of many hon. Gentlemen opposite were printed in black. When he saw the anxiety now shown to make a case against the freemen, he might be allowed to remind the House that the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) had never cited the case of the 10 l. householders of Cheltenham. In that town, there were no freemen; the constituency consisted of 10 l. householders; but it was proved that corruption had been practised, and the Member was unseated. Now, hon. Gentlemen who appeared so anxious for the disfranchisement of the freemen, did not think it necessary to refer to this case. He had been told by the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Hanmer) the name of the person who was to be the Chief Commissioner under this Bill, if it received the assent of the House. That hon. Gentleman did not tell him this as any secret, but informed him that the hon. Gentleman and the Government had fixed upon the same person for this office. They were now told that the appointment was to made by the Chief Justice, and he (Mr. Hudson) thought it could not be in better hands. But the hon. Baronet told him (Mr. Hudson) that the late Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) was to be the Chief Commissioner. He entertained great respect for the abilities of that learned Gentleman, and perhaps a more amiable man could not be selected for an office of this kind, or one more likely to carry out the beneficial intentions of the hon. Baronet. If Parliament delegated its authority in these matters to a Commissioner, they might imagine that Commissioner arriving with great pomp in the city of Lincoln; perhaps, he might be received by the high sheriff; he would hold his court and summon witnesses. He (Mr. Hudson) had had his banking accounts ransacked by a Committee of the
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House of Commons, because he would not give information which, as an honourable man, he conceived he ought not to give without the consent of the individuals by whom he had been trusted; and for pursuing this conduct he had been threatened with committal to Newgate. Now, the Commissioner to be appointed under this Bill might summon bankers, and require the production of banking books or ledgers. On the occasion to which he had alluded, a banking establishment was subjected to the inconvenience of sending their ledger to London for the inspection of a Committee, who examined the account of ah individual, and might have published it if they had chosen; and had this been done, and had the individual in question been indebted to his bankers, it might have had a serious effect upon his credit. Now, hon. Gentleman did not know whose banking accounts might be called for during election inquiries, and, therefore, he recommended them to be careful how they voted upon this Bill. There might be an inquiry into an election for the city of London, and they might have the banking account of the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) examined by a Committee. If inquiries of the nature to be authorised by this Bill were instituted, there was no man against whom they could not be directed, The House would be laying down a precedent which, though applicable immediately only to 12 or 13 boroughs, Would, on a subsequent occasion, become applicable to some 300 boroughs. Hon. Gentlemen opposite would be told of that precedent when, in another Parliament, they found themselves in a minority. Provision was made for prosecution under the Bill, but there was no provision for the defence. In the York case counsel and attorneys for the defence were allowed at the expense of the country. He hoped the authorities of the boroughs would show their indignation at the Star-chamber inquisitions which it was proposed to institute by refusing the use of their town-halls for the prosecution of such investigations. If there were cases of corruption among the humble classes of a constituency, there were cases, on the other hand, in which electors whose position was higher were actuated by motives which, when fully examined, would be found to be equally corrupt; and he hoped, for the sake of the constituencies, for the sake of the House, that a system of inquiry would not be insisted upon which must involve so useless an expenditure of money.
LORD J. RUSSELLhad hoped that the progress of the present Bill would not have been marked by any departure from the usual mode of carrying on business. He must own he had been disappointed, because, after the House had assented to the second reading, and had taken a further debate on going into Committee, after each question had been decided by a majority in favour of the Bill, and the House had gone into Committee to-night, they had had the whole matter argued over again—not with reference to the form of inquiry to be instituted, but on the question whether any Bill of this kind should be introduced at all. The hon. and learned Member for Dorsetshire argued the question very fairly on the second reading, maintaining that the House ought to make inquiry by a Committee as he (Lord J. Russell) had proposed in the case of Horsham. A great deal was to be said for that mode of proceeding. It was the least expensive; and both Houses of Parliament would have the whole evidence before them on the subject. On the second reading that was a fair question to place before the House. When the House had approved the principle of the Bill, it was not to be anticipated that on the first clause of the Bill in Committee, that discussion was to be recommenced. The hon. Member who had just sat down had used arguments directed rather against any kind of Bill such as that proposed by the hon. Baronet, than bearing on the first clause, which was now under consideration. The hon. Member had touched on some matters which did not seem worthy of notice. He could not see why any personal attack on the hon. Baronet should be allowed to enter into the question; and, regretting in common with the hon. Member, the absence of the noble Lord the Member for Falkirk, whose support in Committee he would have been glad of, he hoped the House would not consent any longer to argue on the general merits, whether a Bill of this kind should be introduced or not—whether the mode of proceeding proposed was the best or not—but would proceed to consider such questions as that on which the hon. Member had touched for two minutes in his speech—whether sums should be allowed for the prosecution, and not for the defence.
MR. GODSONwished to know whether the Government had obtained the sanction of the Lord Chief Justice to that provision of the Bill by which he was empowered to
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appoint Commissioners? [Sir G. GREY: We have.] Then, the important question arose, how far would the House of Commons be giving away its jurisdiction? If the House were also to determine that all election petitions should be decided on by a Judge of the land and a jury, there would then be very little bribery or treating; because it would be put an end to, as the matter would then be decided according to evidence in a court of law, and not according to the fancy of Members of a Committee, and not by a Committee composed of two Members of one set of politics and two Members of another, with the chance of having a chairman on the one side or other. By this Bill the first Commissioners were to be appointed by the Lord Chief Justice. Why not the future Commissioners also, if the principle were good? The future Commissioners, however, were to be named by the Speaker. He should vote against the clause on account of this contradiction.
The SOLICITOR GENERALobserved, that the Lord Chief Justice had given his sanction to the proposition that he should appoint such persons as Commissioners under the Bill as he might think fitted for the duty. In this respect the House was not parting with its jurisdiction, nor was the case of the election petitions at all analogous to the present. In reference to election petitions, the Committee was invested with judicial capacity to decide whether the person petitioned against was or was not a Member of the House; but under this Bill the Commissioners had no power to decide anything. It was a mistake to suppose that they were to disfranchise boroughs. The whole object of the Bill was to establish the most convenient and least expensive mode of collecting evidence, which the House was afterwards to decide upon. There was, undoubtedly, an apparent inconsistency in the Lord Chief Justice nominating in the first instance, and the Speaker afterwards. That arose in this way:—It was usual to name the Commissioners in the Bill, but it was thought that if that course were followed, objections might be taken that the parties named were selected for party purposes, and it was, therefore, deemed better to give the selection of the Commissioners to an individual who could not be supposed to be influenced by party motives. Consequently, the Lord Chief Justice was chosen for this duty, the Speaker not being desirous to perform it in the first instance.

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On every subsequent vacancy, however, I the Speaker might appoint the person, as in the Sudbury case, to fill up the vacancy. Consequently, there was in substance no inconsistency. With respect to the principle of the Bill, he thought it an inconvenient course again to discuss it, as it had been already decided on by the House on three separate divisions; and he knew not how Gentlemen opposite could complain of the Government not pressing the Bill forward, as the delay was occasioned by the unusual resistance given to the measure.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that as the noble Lord had complained of the desultory debate on the principle of the Bill, he would ask what occasioned that? Why, the lion. Baronet who had charge of the Bill had slipped in words constituting the mode in which these Commissioners were to be appointed, without one word of explanation, and totally contrary to what the House was led to believe would be the mode of naming the Commissioners; for the clause was printed in reference to Commissioners being named in the Bill. It was not until the Solicitor General was called up by the observations of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Godson) that any explanation was given with respect to the new provision of the Bill. But on whose authority was it that the Solicitor said that the Lord Chief Justice consented to the arrangement? Did he make that statement on the part of the Government, and was this the Bill of the Government? It was a serious thing to determine whether they should mix up the Lord Chief Justice with the appointments of these persons, whom the Government, perhaps, had chosen beforehand. It had been publicly stated that one of the Commissioners was to be a particular individual. Had they taken means to ascertain whether the Lord Chief Justice would make that appointment? The only observation made by the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Hanmer) on the clause under consideration was, that he thought the House was going to take a very direct and stringent course of proceeding. He would show that this was the case. The power of naming the Commissioners was taken from the House, and then, by way of pretending to do a great act of justice, they said that they would give authority to the Lord Chief Justice to appoint these persons. Was this all? The next line gave the power of appointing additional Commissioners, in case the House should resolve that it was necessary to do so for
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the more speedy execution of the Act. Thus, if the Commissioners appointed by the Lord Chief Justice should not go on as they (the majority of that House) thought proper, then they might appoint other Commissioners. Thus, after having two or three Commissioners working at Lincoln, they might send down five new Commissioners to supersede them. This certainly was a direct and stringent course of proceeding. They departed from the usual course of naming the Commissioners in the Bill, and threw the selection on the Lord Chief Justice; and yet, after all, they did not trust him. If the Commissioners did not do as they were wanted, the House might appoint "three other spirits more wicked than themselves." And this was what was called a direct and stringent way of doing business. He agreed with them; it was a very stringent way. He had great objections to the Bill itself, but he confessed he disliked the mode of carrying the Bill into effect more than he disliked the Bill, because it afforded abundant room for unfairness and mismanagement. There was a question which he wished to ask the Solicitor General, for he seemed to have taken the Bill out of the hands of the hon. Baronet behind him, and to have adopted it as a Government Bill: would the Commissioners to he appointed under the first clause die with the boroughs named in the schedule, or were they to form a standing commission for all time?
SIR G. GREYwould endeavour to answer the three questions which he understood the hon. Gentleman to have put. The first was, whether the Chief Justice had consented to nominate a particular gentleman whom he (Mr. Henley) had heard had been already selected for the office of one of the Commissioners? With respect to that question, he (Sir G. Grey) had to answer that no nomination had been made, and that if the clause was adopted, the Chief Justice would have the power of selecting any person from the bar of England for the office whom he pleased, without reference to any previous selection. The next question of the hon. Member was, whether in the event of the House resolving that, for the more speedy execution of the Act, an additional number of Commissioners should be appointed, the House was to appoint those Commissioners? He (Sir G. Grey) wondered that the hon. Member, who was usually so accurate, should not have seen that the House was not to appoint these Commissioners, but

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that they were to he appointed by the very mode which the hon. Member himself said he would not object to, namely, by the Speaker. With respect to the last question, whether in the event of subsequent cases occurring under the 17th Clause, the first commission was to continue as a permanent commission, or whether other Commissioners were to be appointed, he begged to say, that if the hon. Member read the 17th Clause attentively he would see that the Commissioners to be appointed, with reference to future cases, were not to be appointed by the Chief Justice, but by the Speaker.
MR. HENLEYsaid, that what he objected to was the double mode of appointment, because by that means the House, in the event of any of the Commissioners not pleasing them, might keep forcing the Speaker to add to their number until they had got such as did please them.
MR. ANSTEYprotested against the language held by the noble Member for London when he said that hon. Gentlemen had not addressed themselves to the question before the House. For his part he should not submit to such dictation.
The Committee divided on the question that the clause as amended stand part of the Bill:—Ayes 108; Noes 39: Majority 69.

List of the AYES.

Adair, R. A. S.

Greene, T.

Aglionby, H. A.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Anson, hon. Col.

Grosvenor, Lord R.

Armstrong, Sir A.

Hall, Sir B.

Armstrong, R. B.

Hallyburton, Lord J. F.

Bagshaw, J.

Hawes, B.

Bellew, R. M.

Hayter, W. G.

Birch, Sir T. B.

Henry, A.

Bowring, Dr.

Heywood, J.

Boyle, hon. Col.

Hill, Lord M.

Brotherton, J.

Hindley, C.

Buller, C.

Hollond, R.

Bunbury, E. H.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Campbell, hon. W. F.

Howard, Sir R.

Carew, W. H. P.

Hume, J.

Clay, J.

Jervis, Sir J.

Clifford, H. M.

King, hon. P. J. L.

Craig, W. G.

Lewis, G. C.

Crawford, W. S.

Littleton, hon. E. R.

Davie, Sir H. R. F.

M'Gregor, J.

Divett, E.

Maher, N. V.

Duncan, G.

Mahon, The O'Gorman

Dundas, Adm.

Mangles, R. D.

Ebrington, Visct.

Marshall, W.

Ellice, E.

Matheson, Col.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Estcourt, J. B. B.

Melgund, Visct.

Fordyce, A. D.

Milner, W. M. E.

Fox, W. J.

Mitchell, T. A.

Freestun, Col.

Monsell, W.

Glyn, G. C.

Morpeth, Visct.

Granger, T. C.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

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Mulgrave, Earl of

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Strickland, Sir G.

Paget, Lord A.

Sullivan, M.

Palmer, R.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Parker, J.

Talfourd, Serj.

Pearson, C.

Thompson, Col.

Pechell, Capt.

Thornely, T.

Perfect, R.

Tollemache, hon. J. F.

Pigott, F.

Towneley, C.

Pinney, W.

Townshend, Capt.

Raphael, A.

Trelawny, J. S.

Reynolds, J.

Tufnell, H.

Ricardo, O.

Vivian, J. H.

Rich, H.

Wilcox, B. M.

Robartes, T. J. A.

Wilson, J.

Roche, E. B.

Wilson, M.

Romilly, Sir J.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Russell, Lord J.

Wood, W. P.

Russell, F. C. H.

Wyld, J.

Salwey, Col.

Wyvill, M.

Scholefield, W.

Seyiner, H. K.

TELLERS.

Simeon, J.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Somerville, rt. hon. Sir W.

Baines, M. T.

List of the NOES.

Anstey, T. C.

Henley, J. W.

Archdall, Capt.

Hildyard, R. C.

Baring, T.

Hildyard, T. B. T.

Barrington, Visct.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Benbow, J.

Hood, Sir A.

Beresford, W.

Ingestre, Visct.

Bourke, R. S.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Bruce, C. L. C.

Newdegate, C. N.

Buck, L. W.

Pakington, Sir, J.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Palmer, R.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Rolleston, Col.

Christy, S.

Sibthorp, Col.

Dodd, G.

Smyth, J. G.

Duncombe, hon. O.

Spooner, R.

Edwards, H.

Stuart, H.

Godson, R.

Taylor, T. E.

Goring, C.

Urquhart, D.

Grogan, E.

Vivian, J. E.

Gwyn, H.

TELLERS.

Hall, Col.

Bankes, G.

Heneage, G. H. W.

Hudson, G.

Clause to stand part of the Bill.
House resumed.
Committee to sit again.
House adjourned at a quarter to One o'clock.

MINUTES.
Took the Oaths,—Several Lords.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Certificates for Killing Hares.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Inverness and Haddington, in favour of, and from Queens ferry, against, the Law of Entail (Scotland) Bill.—From Guardians of the Blandford Union, for the Adoption of Measures for the Better Prevention of Vagrancy From Members of a Lodge of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, Manchester Unity, for the Extension of the Provisions of the Benefit Societies Act to that Order.—From the Board of Directors of the United Ancient Order of Druids, in favour of the Provident Associations Frauds Prevention Bill.—From Ayrshire, and a great number of other Places, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill, and the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.

RAILWAY COMPANIES AND STEAM BOATS.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, there were two or three Railway Bills before their Lordships, in which there were clauses empowering railway companies to become steamboat proprietors. Now, he thought that if such powers were granted to railway companies, the principle of competi-
674
tion would be destroyed. In these cases where such powers were sought, it was represented that certain accommodation and advantages would be given to the public, which they did not at present possess; but their Lordships must recollect that that accommodation would not be derived from the profits of the steamships proposed to be employed, but from the profits obtained upon the railway. Competition, therefore, under such circumstances, would be impossible; and their Lordships had wisely established a Standing Order that no railway company should be empowered to become steamboat proprietors unless a special case were made out. The case to which he now more particularly alluded, was that of the Chester and Holyhead Railway Company. That company had a Bill before Parliament for the purpose of establishing steamboats between Holyhead and Dublin; and he begged to ask the noble Earl the First Lord of the Admiralty, whether Her Majesty's Government were not already fully prepared with steamers of the best quality to carry the mails between Dublin and this country?
The EARL of AUCKLANDsaid, that, in reply to the question of the noble Lord, he had to state that the Admiralty certainly had provided steam-packets to ply between Holy head and Dublin for the purpose of carrying the mails; and that unless some arrangements could be made by which that service could be performed as quickly and as surely, he saw very great inconvenience in transferring it to any company. At the same time, he thought that the Board of Admiralty could be relieved from the duty of carrying the Post Office mails; and if they could ensure that the service would be performed as well and as cheaply by contract, the better it would be for the naval service, already hindered by many duties, and the better it would be for the finances of the country, and for the Post Office itself. He thought the question should be approached with very great care and caution, and he would refer his noble Friend to certain papers which would be laid on the table of the House, when he might be enabled to form some opinion on the subject.
EARL GRANVILLEobserved, that the Railway Commission had made a report to the House of Commons, in which they called attention to the necessity of having clauses inserted in certain Bills, giving the companies power of investing a definite amount of their capital in steam vessels in

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connexion with, their lines. The report was referred to the Railway Board, and the result was, that a joint report was presented to the House, stating the reasons for and against the project, and recommending that the clauses should he allowed and inserted with certain limitations; and this report it was intended to act upon.
The EARL of RODENsaid, he agreed with the noble Earl that great caution should be exercised before the Legislature came to any decision on the subject of Post-office communication. He could bear full testimony to the exertions of the Admiralty to do the best that could be done for this service. It was a matter of the greatest importance that the two capitals should be brought as near to each other as it was possible to do. At present, a great step had been made to accomplish that object; and in proof of it, he could state that he left Dublin the other morning at half-past seven o'clock, and was in London at half-past ten o'clock that night.

THE RAILWAY COMMISSIONERS.
LORD REDESDALE, in pursuance of a notice on the Votes, rose to "ask the Lord President respecting the duties which the Railway Commissioners are expected to perform, and the position in which they are considered to stand in relation to Her Majesty's Government?" He did so for the purpose of bringing under their Lordships' notice the relations between the Railway Commissioners and the Government. The Board charged with the superintendence of railways was so inactive, that its existence was hardly ever thought of even by those more conversant with the subject. In doing so he would shortly recall to their recollection the circumstances under which the Board was constituted. In 1844, when the railway question rose into great importance, it became evident to all that there would be in the ensuing Session such a mass of Bills before the Legislature, many of them referring to the same districts, that unless some guidance were given to the Committees, it was very probable the reports would be imperfectly considered. It was resolved accordingly, that the Board of Trade should be called on to investigate and report upon the various projects in the ensuing year. The noble Earl (the Earl of Dalhousie) then Vice-President of the Board of Trade, had given much of his attention to that most important subject, and issued a mass of information in the reports from the Board,
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which conferred on him and those who acted with him the greatest possible Credit. He believed there was hardly a man in the country who did not at that time conceive it was the intention of Government to give some degree of support to the reports proceeding from their own Board. No disappointment would have been felt by any one if such had been the ease, and the greatest possible good would have been effected with respect to the railway interest throughout the country. But it was soon seen the Government was not disposed to give support to the recommendation of the Board of Trade—that the Committees of the House were to have more weight than the reports—and that in every instance where the Committees upset the reports, their decisions Were retained without any further investigation. So sensible were the House of Commons of the mischief of this course, and so numerous were the complaints made in consequence, that a Commission was appointed to inquire into the important question of the difference of the gauges. This Commission reported to the House that the Board of Trade could not fully concur with their recommendations. The Board of Trade then reported on the subject to the House, and the Government at last became aware of the importance of taking up the question. They took up the report of the Board of Trade, and resolutions were moved in both Houses, on which a Bill was introduced by Government as a public measure, regulating the various matters connected with railways. It was on this occasion only that some degree of support had been given by the Government to their own Board. It seemed desirable, in order to carry out the objects of the Legislature, that a separate Board should be appointed for the performance of these new duties, and that it should not rest as heretofore on a public department which had other and equally important duties to discharge. By Act of Parliament the Railway Commission was therefore appointed as a separate and independent body, with duties specially set forth and defined in that Act. They were required to report specially on any matter connected with railways which might be referred to them, and to report as well on any manner connected with' railways which would be at all likely to affect the public interests. If no such reports were issued, it was evident that the Board must be liable to an accusation of dereliction of duty. But then it was to be recollected that Government had never shown any disposition

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to support these reports, and any person would naturally feel reluctant to give a decision likely to be upset by the decision of a Committee of either House of Parliament. In the present Session many questions had arisen of the greatest importance, not only to the railway interest but to the public, such as the Gauge Bill, and the amalgamation of railways, with respect to which the Railway Board ought to have taken some decided steps, but in which they had never interfered at all. Surely it was the duty of the Commissioners to have reported on these and such important matters to Parliament. It would seem, however, that this Board stood in a different position from any other Board connected with Her Majesty's Government or the public service. What would be thought, for example, if the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests brought a Bill into the House on a subject connected with his department, in which he received no support whatever from the Government to which he belonged? It was evident the public would soon cease to respect his office. There might be one reason why the reports of the Board had never received much confidence, and that might be that they had never shown themselves to be worth much with respect to the important matters coming under their charge. Soon after the formation of the Board they introduced a Bill, of which (as it had never come up to their Lordships) he would only say that it seemed to have contained many most useful provisions; but from the small amount of support it received, it was finally allowed to drop, without any effort being even made by the Government to assist the measure of their own Board. It was desirable that the public should know in what position this Board really stood, and whether they were really intended to have any charge of the railway system or not. If the question were answered in the negative, it must appear that the Board were utterly useless; if in the affirmative, then it was worth ascertaining if the reports they made as Government officers were still to be disregarded. As matters stood at present, the decision of any Committee, put forth, perhaps, by a majority of one, would have more weight than all their recommendations; and this was a state of things, as he conceived, neither creditable to the Government nor to the Railway Board itself. He wished to know what duties were expected from this Board, and what support Government intended to give it?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, the question of the noble Lord raised two points—the first, whether it was expedient that there should be a Board to take charge of railway projects, and institute inquiries respecting them?—the second, what was the use of the Board which now existed? In reply to the first, he had to state that he certainly thought it desirable such a body should be constituted; and that although there had been alterations in the administration of the Board, consequent on the person who had been at the head of it ceasing to exercise his functions, in which the principle of economy had determined the Government not to fill that post, the Board nevertheless existed with exactly the same functions, and under precisely the same regulations, as under previous Governments. The functions of that Board were of very great importance, and they were proceeding from day to day, as they would continue to proceed, to the benefit of the public, and to the great assistance of the Parliament and of the Government. There were no functions which it ever had exercised before that it did not exercise. The points to which the attention of the Board was constantly referred, were various and important. They were, the opening of railways in particular; inquiring into their safety for the public; inquiring into the accidents which unfortunately occur from time to time; the regulation of cheap trains; the regulation of fares; the by-laws of the several companies; all miscellaneous matters relating to railways; references under public Acts of Parliament; disputes between company and company; references under the Standing Orders; the special duty of making reports on the important colonial railways from time to time submitted to them; and other matters of equal consequence. To give an idea of the extent of their labours, he might state that 780 lines had been inspected and reported on by the Board last year, and that a greater number would undergo the same process this year. In every case where accidents occurred, inquiries had been instituted, and in twenty-two cases special reports had been made by the engineers acting under their authority, in which they had made suggestions, which, in most instances, if not all, had been, he was happy to state, readily adopted by the various companies. The number of special clauses they had inserted in Acts of Parliament last year were eighty, on fifty different subjects. It could not be said, then,

679
that this Board was not discharging useful and important duties, and that it was not in the full exercise of those functions with which Parliament had entrusted it, and which were necessary for the public safety. He was not prepared to say that Government should consider itself bound in every case to shut its ears to the recommendations of Parliament, merely because a public department took an opposite view of any particular case; but if the noble Lord asked him whether at any time it might be likely that greater powers would be conferred on the Board, he confessed he was not prepared to answer him. This he would say, however, that the Government did not think they had yet arrived at that time at a stage of proceedings when they would be justified in proposing any such increase, while he was not inclined to state that in his opinion the time might not come when more powers would be required. At present the President and Vice-President of the Board of Trade were giving their attention to the various matters connected with railways, with the most efficient assistance of able and experienced paid officers.
LORD REDESDALEsaid, the noble Marquess seemed to think that great weight had been given to the reports which had issued from the Railway Board; but he (Lord Redesdale) was afraid no weight had been given to them at all, inasmuch as he did not know of any one case in which those reports had been fully carried out and acted upon. What he wanted to ascertain was this: would the Board, after it had come to any decision on a question, and having the opportunity of hearing the opinions adverse to it urged in Parliament, in the presence of the heads of the Board, persist in that decision if their views remained unaltered, and if they thought it necessary for the public service; and would the Government assist and support them in Parliament? It would appear, from what had taken place, that the Railway Board had not the courage to support their own opinions.
EARL GRANVILLEsaid, it appeared to him that the noble Lord had made some confusion between the Board of Trade and the Railway Commission. With respect te the recommendations of the latter body, he could assure the noble Lord that in every single case they had been attended to and acted upon. The Board might no doubt be made still more useful; but no one could admit for one moment that it
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was useless, as long as it was composed of its present Members, exercising the same powers. If the noble Lord thought that superintendence in railways should be abolished, his objections might have some value; but he (Earl Granville) could not approve of any proposition for the introduction of persons of a lower grade into the Board.
LORD REDESDALE: What he desired, was to raise the position of the Railway Department of the Board of Trade. The Board had made some very good reports, and gave some very clear and decided opinions. He could not say so much for the report upon the last subject referred to their consideration. The Board of Trade ought not to have left Parliament to decide upon the gauge question without the expression of some decided opinion. Upon that question, which was one of public interest, Parliament had been left to decide in what manner private interest might dictate.
House adjourned.