Sitting of 4 August 1848

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Money Order Department (Post Office); Importation of Sheep, &c. Prohibition; Contagious Disorders Prevention (Sheep, &c.).
2° Turnpike Acts Continuance; Canada Government; Metropolitan Commissions of Sewers.
Reported,—Insolvent Debtors' Court; Sugar Duties.
3° and passed:—Paymaster's Offices Consolidation: Highway Rates; Farmers' Estate Society (Ireland).
PRTITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Wilson Patten, from Exeter, and other Places, for a Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Sir Charles Lemon, from Miners and Others connected with the Fowey Consols Copper Mine, in Cornwall, against the Copper and Lead Duties Bill.—By Mr. Devereux, from Waterford, for Abolition of the Ministers' Money (Ireland).—By Sir Benjamin Hall, from several Lodges of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, for an Extension of the Benefit Societies Act.—By Lord Courtenay, from Plympton, for an Alteration of the Law respecting Education.—By Lord Dudley Stuart, from Luke James Hansard, Printer, of Southampton Street, Bloomsbury, suggesting the Establishment of a National Printing Office.—By Mr. C. P. Villiers, from the Guardians of Wolverhampton Union, for an Alteration of the Poor Law.—By Lord Dudley Stuart, from the Committee of the West London Anti-Enclosure Association, respecting the Management of St. James's Park.—By Mr. Christy, from Newcastle-under-Lyme, in favour of the Sale of Beer Bill.—By Mr. Stuart Wortley, from the Rothsay Young Men's Association for Mutual Improvement, against the Scientific Societies Bill.—By Mr. Henry Herbert, from the Grand Jury of the County of Kerry, suggesting Remedial Measures for the State of Ireland.

POOR LAW UNION CHARGES (No. 2) BILL.
House in Committee.
On Clause 1,
MR. C. BULLERsaid, that one object of the Bill was to renew the temporary law respecting the irremovability of the poor, and to continue Mr. Bodkin's Bill for one year. In doing that he thought it right to make the whole subject of the Bill extend only for one year also.
MR. BROTHERTONhoped the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buller) would bring in a Bill to make the poor in large towns chargeable upon the unions. At present the poor had to keep the poor, for the rich evaded this duty. In the parish in which he lived the poor-rates were 1s. in the pound, while in the next parish they were 7s. the whole of the poor being kept by the adjoining parish. It frequently happened that persons made their fortunes in towns, and then removed into close townships in the neighbourhood to reside, by which means they were no longer liable to the maintenance of the poor in the parishes where they had amassed their wealth.
MR. HUDSONcould confirm the statement of the hon. Member for Salford as to the effect of the present system. Some of the richest parishes in the city of York were almost entirely relieved from poor-rates. There was another point to which he begged to call the attention of the right bon. Gentleman (Mr. C. Buller), and that was the hardship of which railway proprietors had to complain in the rating of railways to the relief of the poor. In looking over the accounts of one railway with which he was connected, the Eastern Counties, he found that they had paid 12,000 l. in rates during the last half-year, for 250 miles of railway, which was about 8l. per acre; while he believed it would be found that agricultural parishes only paid on average of from 3s. to 3s. 6d. per acre throughout the kingdom. He feared that the effect of the present Bill would be to saddle upon the railways, as the large ratepayers, the additional rate which would be levied upon the union generally, and that they would thus have to contribute to the maintenance of the poor in parishes in which they had no property. He hoped, at least, that the subject of railway rateability would be taken out of the hands of magistrates. It was not right that so much injustice should be perpetrated upon the promoters of undertakings which rather deserved the fostering hand

1145
of the Government, The railway companies only asked for justice; but it must strike the House as a monstrous injustice that they should pay 8l. per acre to the poor-rates while the average of the rates in agricultural parishes was only from 3s. to 3s. 6d. per acre.
MR. C. BULLERconcurred in what had fallen from the hon. Members for Sal-ford and Sunderland with regard to the hardship caused by the inequality of rating of different parishes in the same towns. He had already expressed his opinion in favour of retaining the principle of parochial chargeability; but none of the arguments in favour of this principle applied to the case of towns, in which one parish paid more than another, in consequence of the labourers living in one parish, and working in another. The question underwent much discussion in the Settlement Committee of last year; and it appeared to he the general opinion that a complete and uniform charge would he the right thing with regard to the several parishes forming large towns. He proposed to lay on the table this Session a Bill enacting that where there was a town coextensive with a union (of which he believed there were only six cases), and where the town was not under a local Act, there should be in such cases an entire union charge for all purposes whatsoever. If the Bill gave satisfaction, it would be easy to extend it to smaller towns which were not coextensive with unions. He thus proposed to feel his way, and he hoped the House would allow him to go on in this kind of pottering manner. The present discussion was somewhat premature.
MR. E. DENISONwished the right hon. Gentleman to give his opinion on the three following cases: Firstly, if a person presented himself at the door of a union workhouse in a state of intoxication, ought such a person to he an object of public charity? Secondly, supposing the case that some labourers had been engaged in labouring work, and had been in the receipt of very large wages—that a strike took place, that those parties were thrown out of work, and that they immediately had recourse to the union workhouse, and represented themselves as destitute, ought they to be taken into the house, or otherwise receive relief? His third question was, whether certain men, between the ages of eighteen and thirty, who were known to be circulating through the country, and who were in the habit of con-
1146
stantly coming to the workhouse and asking for relief, ought to receive it from the union workhouses? Some information upon points such as those was very necessary to guide relieving officers in the discharge of their duty.
MR. MUNTZwould suggest to the House whether the relief of the poor ought not to he a national act instead of a local act. Why should funded property be free from the poor-rate, or stock in trade? He knew that the difficulty of taxing stock in trade was great, and that the expense of collecting it would he large; but that was no reason why it should not be taxed as well as any other description of property.
MR. C. BULLERsaid, the question raised by the hon. Member for Birmingham was a very large one. He had his own opinion on the subject, and it did not entirely coincide with that of the hon. Member. With respect to the questions put by the hon. Member (Mr. E. Denison), he might state that his object had been, ill the circular to parochial officers, which he hoped to lay on the table to-day, to point out to the unions the necessity of exercising a discretion in such cases; and if a general explanation of his views did I not prove sufficient, he would labour most sedulously, from time to time, until he had I made himself understood. With respect to those persons who were in the receipt; of good wages, he had attempted to guard against their being improperly relieved; and if it should be known in the neighbourhood that they were in that condition, unless they were bowed down by illness, he should say that the relieving officer would exercise a wise discretion in refusing relief. As to habitual vagrancy, he would put that act down as he would any other offence.
MR. SANDARSsaid, that though the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buller) had been compelled by circumstances to withdraw the greater part of the measures he had introduced, yet he thanked him for Persevering with the clause which spread the charge of vagrancy over the whole union. This evil of vagrancy was so great, so increasing, that it admitted not of delay, and he was glad to see a prospect of the principle being admitted; for, depend upon it, unless the guardians generally were made to feel the burden, no effectual steps could or would be taken to mitigate the evil. The country guardians, as the law now stood, bore none of the burden, and they opposed those who did,

1147
in their attempts to put it down. In the union to which he belonged, the board passed a resolution to appoint a vagrant officer; at the very next meeting this was rescinded by an influx of country guardians, whose interest it was to keep the establishment expenses as low as possible. Again, the guardians proposed to erect sleeping apartments for the vagrants; but this was successfully opposed by the country members of the board, and the only alternative was to quarter them at those nests of vice and misery, the lodging-houses, at a great expense to the parish. The relief of the vagrants was thrown almost exclusively upon the central township, or where the poorhouse was situated. Thus, for instance, in the union of Wakefield, in the six months from October to April, no less than 3,670 cases of vagrancy occurred in one township, that of Wakefield; whilst in Alverthorpe, a populous township, only ten occurred, and in some others not one. He asked upon what principle of justice should the whole expenses be thrown upon one township? He was sorry the right hon. Gentleman had been compelled to abandon his proposed improved system of rating, namely, on the county rate, instead of the old system of averages. However just the system of averages might have been some fourteen years ago, when these unions were formed, the right no longer existed; and he contended, all those charges—the establishment, the irremovables, and the vagrants—ought to be spread over the whole union, by a fair and equitable system of rating. The proposed measure was but a temporary one, and ceased in September, 1849; but he was glad to hear the right hon. Gentleman say he intended to prepare, during the recess, a far more extended plan. No one knew better than he the great evils of the law as it stood; and he believed no one was more sincere in his desire to reform those abuses; and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would turn his great talents to the consideration of that monster evil, the law of settlement. He considered the late change of five years' residence gaining a settlement a great improvement—a step in the right direction; but it was necessary to proceed; and he would be glad to see the five years reduced to one; at present it was a fruitful source of litigation, particularly in the different townships of a union. It cost the union of Wakefield 10 l. to 14 l. per week, or about 600 l. per annum—a sum more
1148
considerable than the whole expense would be of maintaining all these disputed cases; and then, again, look at the hardships it entailed on the poor. If a pauper had gained a settlement by five years' residence, he lost that right of relief and irremovability by removing some fifty or one hundred yards into another township of the same union; and was sent perhaps some one hundred miles off to obtain relief from that parish to which he originally belonged. He contended that, to remove from one township to another in the same union ought not to disqualify him from relief. It gave rise to cases of great hardship and cruelty. He threw out these hints to the right hon. Gentleman; and he hoped he would bring in a measure early next Session to reform these glaring defects and abuses in the system which now existed.
SIR H. WILLOUGHBYhad suggested, at the time the poor-law was passed, that small, well-administered parishes should be exempted from the operation of the law. When the right hon. Gentleman attempted to frame a new system of rating for the country, it was very like a breach of faith to these small parishes, and threw an additional burden on parishes where property had been bought and sold under the old system. If a greater burden were thrown upon property than existed at the time of the contract, it would have the effect of confiscating property.
LORD H. VANEthought it would be unjust if, by the area of rating being extended to unions instead of the parochial area, there should, as he believed, be a great additional charge upon railroads. The evil of vagrancy in the north of England was great, and one of the difficulties attending the extension of the area of chargeability was, that without some very stringent measures for the suppression of vagrancy, it would be increased by such extension of the area. The difficulties in the way of a union settlement were very great, and it would be better to proceed by a bit by bit reform, than to adopt at once so extensive a change, to which he foresaw much opposition.
MR. ALDERMAN SIDNEYsaid, in the late Chartist disturbances it had been found that the mobs were augmented by the 4,000 or 5,000 vagrants who were always preying upon the community. Unless vagrancy, which was rapidly increasing, was dealt with in a most stringent manner, the large towns would be in constant fear of

1149
an outbreak through the recklessness of I these persons. The rates of the town of Stafford, which he represented, had increased from 8,000 l. to 12,000 l. In Manchester, in 1837, the rates were only 24,000 l., whereas in 1847 they had reached the enormous amount of 125,000 l. [Mr. BULLER: The increase was for buildings.] In Norwich and other places there had been a large increase, and some change was absolutely necessary in assessing the rate; for if Norwich, Leeds, London, and other large cities, were to suffer under the infliction of an unequal tax, there would be great dissatisfaction amongst the urban population. Norwich had not only to sup port its own manufacturing poor, but that of the agricultural poor.
MR. P. HOWARDsaid, that some part of the pressure of the rates upon large towns had arisen from the general depression of trade in the early part of the year. He trusted that during the next half year much labour would be absorbed, and that the pressure upon the country would be relieved. The five years' residence might be accounted a grievance; but he believed the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) had been actuated by the most beneficent motive in bringing forward that clause, and that it was upon the whole founded on the greatest humanity. He trusted that, whatever might be the evils attending vagrancy, the poor-law unions would be ready to grant relief to infirm and aged vagrants.
MR. HENLEYagreed in what had fallen from the hon. Member who had just sat down, that a great deal of the pressure and temporary suffering in the country had arisen from the unfortunate depression of trade in many parts; and that a great deal of the burden of the rates had arisen from that cause and no other. With respect to the mode of dealing with vagrants, it was a most important subject, and he thought a great discretion should he exercised where persons claimed relief who were in a state of intoxication, or who had means or credit of their own. But he (Mr. Henley) had been disappointed, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would disappoint the views of the country, by the mode in which he proposed to deal with tramps or professional vagrants. He was sorry to find that they were to be dealt with only by refusing relief. The administration of the poor-law had now become a responsible department of the Government; and the relief of the poor, be they vagrant or casual, would fall into the hands of the relieving
1150
officer, who would be an officer of the hoard of guardians, acting under the Poor Law Board. He could understand overseers putting away cases of unfounded claims for this kind of relief; but when a man in the situation of a public officer dealt with such a claim by simply denying relief, when the party ought to he punished, and which would only throw hack the party upon the overseers, he thought that such a mode of dealing with those cases was objectionable. They had better look the evil in the face, in spite of the expense of dealing with it in another way. With respect to railroads, he had never been able to understand the justice of the principle upon which this description of property was rated. He had always felt it to be a difficult subject, and had been reluctant to bring his mind to recognise the justice of the decision; but that description of property, like every other, must abide by the decision of the courts of law.
SIR W. JOLLIFFEsaid, the vagrant had half-a-dozen reasons now for following his trade which he had not before—workhouses, relieving officers, overseers, were all interested in getting rid of him as fast as they could; and there was this additional cause, that the whole country teemed with beer-shops, many of which had lodgings for the poor—these and other causes gave facilities for leading an errant life.
MR. HUDSONhad, as a chief magistrate, found it only necessary to commit vagrants found in the town. By steadily pursuing this system, and employing a few policemen, he had always found that in five or six days the town was completely cleared. A little additional expense was incurred, but it saved a good deal in the end.
MR. V. SMITHfelt persuaded that the right hon. Gentleman who brought in the Bill ought to be extremely careful to avoid doing anything that had a tendency rather to increase than to diminish the expense attendant upon the present measure; and he rather apprehended that such a result would ensue from the proceedings in which they were now engaged; he should there-force wish to see the circular which provided for the administration of the law in this matter, As, however, it seemed to be then not convenient to produce it, they might perhaps proceed with the Bill through a Committee, and he should not at present resist its progress.
MR. BULLERwished to state why

1151
throwing the charge on the union would increase those evils which had justly been made the subject of complaint. Parliament might declare that applying to the workhouse for relief was in itself an act of vagrancy; but what would they do with the class who did not care how soon they committed an act of vagrancy, or what might be the consequences of their actions—who would rather go to gaol than to the workhouse—and who, with the prospect of the latter before them, would take up a stone and break a window in order to their being committed to prison? Of course, if the House chose, they might inflict a more severe punishment than imprisonment; but as his department was not that of penal legislation, he was not prepared to propose any measure on that subject; and if it were his duty to propose such a measure, he should certainly put it off till the next Session. With respect to the charge of vagrancy, he begged to say that if they threw the whole cost on single parishes, they might effect their object much more completely in another way; for if they did not mind justice, their plan would be to place the cost on the clergyman, or on the richest gentleman in the parish. If they resolved to put down vagrancy, they must have a relieving officer appointed for the union at large. In the union at large there was not properly a settlement, but rather in the parish, and the parish officers could scarcely deal efficiently with vagrants; when, however, a union happened to be coextensive with a town, that circumstance gave great facilities in relieving vagrancy; but he thought that the modified plan proposed by the present measure was the best that, under the circumstances, could be proposed to Parliament. He hoped the House would remember that the administration of relief to vagrants did not form any part of the poor-law; and it would be against the whole principle of the poor-law to carry it beyond the parishes in which acts of vagrancy were committed. One of the objects which he had in view was to throw the burden of relieving vagrancy upon those who possessed the power of repressing it.
Clause 1, amended, agreed to.
Remaining clauses agreed to.
House resumed. Report to be received on Monday.

THE GERMANIC CONFEDERATION.
MR. DISRAELIsaid: I wish to ask a question of the noble Lord the Secretary
1152
for Foreign Affairs, respecting a new act of aggression and annexation of that Power which is called, by courtesy, the Germanic Confederation. The House will recollect by the Treaties of 1839, on the dismemberment of the kingdom of the Netherlands, the King of the Netherlands, acting under the advice of the great Powers, among which was Great Britain, ceded a portion of the grand duchy of Limburg to the new kingdom of Belgium; and in that treaty it was regulated that the duchy of Limburg should become a province of the kingdom of the Netherlands—it being a condition in the same treaty that the King of the Netherlands should compensate the agnates of his house, those who were interested in the accession to the duchy which he had ceded, for the loss they might sustain, and that he should also compensate the Germanic Confederation for the loss which it might sustain from a relinquishment of the duchy of Luxemburg. The King of the Netherlands, with the advice and the sanction of Great Britain, made a pecuniary compensation to the agnates of his house; and he also undertook that, although Limburg had become a province of the kingdom of the Netherlands, so far as contingents of men and money went, the Germanic Confederation should not lose anything by the change. These arrangements, I need not remind the House, were perfectly satisfactory to all parties. They tended to maintain the peace of Europe, they were satisfactory to the people, from whom a murmur had never been heard. But by a decree very recently issued by the National Assembly at Frankfort, the arrangements then made are entirely repudiated on the part of the Germanic Confederation, and the National Assembly has decided that it cannot sanction those wise and salutary treaties to which Great Britain was a party. The consequence is, that the same circumstances which have already occurred in Schleswig and Holstein are now likely to occur, if they have not already taken place, in the duchy of Luxemburg. The peace of Europe is again disturbed and menaced by this morbid system of annexation manifested by the Confederation. Having explained the foundation of the inquiry which I wish to make, I now beg to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has any communication upon this subject to make to the House; and whether he can hold out any hopes to us that, by his influence, the faith of these treaties can be maintained?
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: The hon. Gentleman has stated correctly the obligations entered into by the Treaty of 1839. By that treaty a portion of the duchy of Luxemburg was ceded and annexed to the kingdom of Belgium. The House is aware that the grand duchy of Luxemburg formed part of the Germanic Confederation, the King of the Netherlands being a member of the Germanic Confederation, as duke of the grand duchy of Luxemburg; the articles of that treaty of 1839 stated that, in consideration of the cession made by the grand duke of a portion of Luxemburg, be was to receive an equivalent in Limburg. The district was described, and it was to be held by him, either in his capacity of grand duke, or it was to he incorporated with the kingdom of the Netherlands. There was a subsequent article, by which the King of the Netherlands was to compensate the agnates of the house of Nassau for the loss they had sustained, and also the Germanic Confederation. The hon. Gentleman stated very correctly what these arrangements were. The King made an arrangement with the agnates of his house; what arrangement was entered into with the Germanic Confederation, Her Majesty's Government have no official knowledge of. But I have recently had an official communication from the Minister of the King of the Netherlands with regard to the proceedings of the National Assembly at Frankfort, respecting that portion of the empire referred to. Before Her Majesty's Government shall be in a position to decide as to the degree of obligation imposed or conferred in that treaty upon England to interfere with regard to these transactions, I find it necessary to inquire from the Government of the Netherlands what passed between the late King of the Netherlands and the Germanic Confederation. I have not obtained that information, and therefore I am not able to say whether the Government feel themselves bound or entitled to interfere, and if so in what way.

THE METROPOLITAN POLICE.
LORD DUDLEY STUARTwished to know whether it was true that certain portions of the police had been armed with swords, having saws at the back; and if they had, whether it was done by the sanction and recommendation of the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department; and whether it was
1154
his intention that they should be habitually so armed?
SIR G. GREYassured the noble Lord that no such intention existed as to arm the police habitually with swords. It had been the practice at different times, and in circumstances of danger, to arm the police. A larger number than usual had been armed in London, Liverpool, and Manchester, in consequence of the threatening language which had been held. The formidable weapons referred to formed part of a store in the Tower belonging to the Ordnance, to whom an application had been made; and they granted a loan of them because they were not the most serviceable. The backs of them were serrated in the manner of a saw, as they were intended formerly for the use of troops in a bivouac, for the felling of trees and the erection of tents. They were not intended for permanent use.

CORRUPT PRACTICES AT ELECTIONS BILL.
On the question that the House resolve itself into a Committee,
SIR DE LACY EVANSstated, that cases of extensive treating had been clearly proved in the North Cheshire election.
LORD J. RUSSELL, who was almost inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say that the law as it stood was intended to visit with punishment those who had treated, with the view of corruptly influencing votes; but if the treating existed without any intention of corruptly influencing votes, he did not see how, in such a case, the penalties of the law could be applied. The application of those penalties would naturally depend upon the particular circumstances of each case, for it was impossible to make a law which would apply exactly to every instance.
SIR R. PEELobserved, that there was some misunderstanding as to the effect of the present law; and it was supposed that difficulties arose from its recent change. Now, such, he apprehended, was not the case. The law was not recently made more strict than it was by the old statute which had existed for 150 years. The effect of the noble Lord's alteration was, that if at any period shortly before or after the election there should he treating, with the intention of influencing voters corruptly—that in that case the treating rendered the Member liable to the loss of his scat. In that Act of the noble Lord's, the intent of treating, to render it part of the

1155
corpus delicti, must be an intent of corruptly influencing. But before that law, the more giving of refreshment was, under the old statute, an offence, without reference to the motives of the giver, and rendered him liable to the loss of his seat. Such would have been the effect of the Act passed in King William's time—an Act passed not to restrain corruption, but to diminish the expenses of elections. As to the distribution of 2s. 6d. tickets, he ventured to say, that before the enactment of the noble Lord's measure, the same question which now agitated the House would have equally arisen—namely, the question, whether it be rational to admit this moderate degree of treating, or no—a question and a difficulty which had been engendered and left unsettled by the state of the law as it existed for 150 years.
MR. HENLEYthought that the existing law had been well explained by the right hon. and learned Member for Bath (Mr. S. Wortley), and the right hon. Member for Tamworth (Sir R. Peel). In the present case, by no possible interpretation of the law were the parties amenable. It was quite impossible to define the proper limits of treating. If inquiry was to be made into every case of a gentleman being hospitable to his tenants, where, pray, was such an inquiry to stop? In the present case it appeared that the treating was neither corrupt, nor given by the candidate. What was there then to complain of? He hold that it was a morbid feeling of pureism which had induced the Committee to report the matter to the House at all. The fact was, that if you refused to allow any expenses of the kind to be defrayed by Members, you would be virtually disfranchising the great masses of the poorer classes.
House in Committee.
On Clause 15 (Persons who may be implicated in corrupt practices, and who may be examined, indemnified),
MR. HOBHOUSEopposed the clause. The Committee divided on the question that the clause stand part of the Bill:—Ayes 117; Noes 19; Majority 98.

List of the NOES.

Arkwright, G.

Hodgson, W. N.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Hood, Sir A.

Boldero, H. G.

Hudson, G.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Lowther, hon. Col.

Christy, S.

Mullings, J. R.

Du Pre, C. G.

Rendlesham, Lord

Edwards, H.

Sturt, H. G.

Fuller, A. E.

Urquhart, D.

Hall, Col.

TELLERS.

Henley, J. W.

Sibthorp, Col.

Hildyard, E. C.

Hobhouse, B.

Clause to stand part of the Bill; the remaining clauses were disposed of.
On the Schedule being proposed,
MR. HODGSON MR. HODGSON moved that Carlisle be omitted. He would ask, why had London been omitted? Why had Lancaster been omitted?
The SOLICITOR GENERAL: I proposed to insert it.
MR. HODGSON: Why had Aylesbury been omitted? Why had Sligo been omitted?
The SOLICITOR GENERAL: I was going to propose it.
MR. HODGSONwould add another borough—Athlone. It was true that many of those boroughs had returned Gentlemen who generally supported the views of Her Majesty's Government. He thought the schedule was very partially and capriciously drawn.
MR. P. HOWARDgave the Bill his most steady and earnest support; and in doing so, he acted in accordance with the wishes, if not of the whole, of a very large and respectable body of the constituency of Carlisle. A petition had been presented from the mayor and corporation of Carlisle, praying that this Bill might pass, and a searching inquiry take place into all the circumstances of the Carlisle election. He (Mr. P. Howard) could not forget that the liberties of a people had been oftener ruined by corruption than by tyranny.
The SOLICITOR GENERALreferred to the report of the Carlisle Election Committee, showing that a large expenditure for the purpose of treating had taken place at the late election; that Mr. Hodgson had been found guilty of treating through his agents, though it was not proved that he had been cognisant of their practices.
MR. C. BERKELEYhoped the inquiry would be extended to Carlisle and Cheltenham too. Why should the hon. Member wish to screen Carlisle, or shrink from inquiry, if there was nothing he was ashamed of?
MR. HODGSONdid not object to extend the inquiry to Carlisle, if they would make it general.
MR. WYLDdefended the Bodmin constituency, whom he declared to be as pure as any in the empire. They recorded their votes unrestricted and uncontrolled; and the ballot would be of no use to them. Bodmin had undergone the ordeal of a Commission of Inquiry; and the application

1157
to it of this Bill was wholly unneecessary.
The SOLICITOR GENERALwas understood to say that Great Yarmouth was originally included in the Bill, but had been withdrawn, in consequcnce of the freemen being disfranchised. He proposed to insert Sligo and Lancaster, but not Bodmin, Lewes, or Gloucester.
MR. HENLEYsuggested that the Chairman should report progress, to give an opportunity of considering the cases of the boroughs now first proposed to be introduced.
The SOLICITOR GENERALhoped the Committee would first dispose of Carlisle, before reporting progress.
MR. HILDYARDsaid, there were the same grounds for inserting Bodmin as Carlisle.
The SOLICITOR GENERALread the report in the Bodmin case, where the treating had not been traced to the sitting-Member or his agents. In the case of Carlisle, the sitting Member was declared guilty of treating by his agents.
MR. ARMSTRONGdefended his constituents from the charge of corruption.
SIR E. COLEBROOKE, as a Member of the Committee in the Lancaster case, recapitulated its principal features, and said if that borough was included, it would be impossible to exclude any place.
MR. WYLDsaid, that as allusion had been made to the Bodmin election, he might state that it had been proved before the Committee that one of the electors had, in his zeal for one of the candidates, issued sixteen refreshment tickets of the value of 5s. each. He (Mr. Wyld) would have no objection to Bodmin being Placed by itself in the schedule; but he certainly must protest against its being put into such bad company as that of the boroughs now included in the schedule.
House resumed.
Committee to sit again.

SUPPLY—THE BRITISH MUSEUM.
SIR R. PEEL, in moving the estimates for the British Museum, observed that he was sure he should consult the wishes of the House by refraining from any lengthened remarks at so late a period of the night. The original estimate on account of the Museum was 53,000 l.; but a saving had been this year effected by the trustees to the amount of 5,000 l. The reduced estimate was now 48,000 l. A sum of 25,000 l. had been already granted on account;
1158
and he had now to move that the balance, 28,445 l., be voted. In proposing this vote he was sure the House would excuse him for a single moment, if he referred to the magnificent bequest which had been made to the country by the late Mr. Grenville, One of the finest libraries that had over been formed by the literary skill and knowledge of a collector had been presented to the Museum by that gentleman. During his lifetime, Mr. Grenville, as every one who was acquainted with literature and science knew, devoted many years in collecting books of the rarest worth, and at his death he munificently devoted them to the public use. The library consisted of not less than 20,000 volumes, and the cost to Mr. Grenville was 54,000 l.; but the intrinsic value of the collection could not he estimated by any reference to its pecuniary value; for it was one of the most extraordinary collections that had ever been made. It was impossible that he (Sir R. Peel) could lot this the first opportunity which had presented itself, pass without publicly expressing the gratitude and respect and esteem which he was confident every one must entertain for the memory of an excellent man and eminent statesman, who in his lifetime rendered great and valuable service to literature and to science, and at his death bequeathed a most munificent gift to his country in furtherance of those two great objects. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that the sum of 28,445 l. be granted to Her Majesty to complete the sum necessary to defray the charges of the British Museum for the year ending the 25th of March, 1849.
Vote agreed to.
House resumed.

SUGAR DUTIES BILL.
On the question that the Sugar Duties Bill be reported,
LORD G. BENTINCKtrusted that the right hon. Baronet the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not bring up the report upon the Sugar Duties Bill, unless he wished the name of Wood to be immortalised in this Bill of blunders. If he persevered, there would he nothing but laughter at him and the hon. Member for West-bury. There was not a merchant in the City who would take the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his clerk. He was sure if this Bill was persevered in, there was not a merchant's clerk in the City who would not believe that he ought to be the Chan-

1159
cellor of the Exchequer. It was, therefore, as a friend of the Government he came forward. He did not care a jot about the blunders, as they were all in favour of the West Indies; be only desired not to see the right hon. Gentleman become ridiculous.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERbelieved the calculations on which the duties were based were correct, and he would persevere in bringing up the report. He was quite willing that no merchant in the City should receive him as a clerk.
Bill reported. To be read a third time.
On the Motion of Mr. PARKER, the House at its rising adjourned to Monday next.
House adjourned at Two o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Windsor Castle, and Town Approaches; Highway Rates; Loan Societies; Trustees Relief.
2a Salmon Breed Preservation: Public Works (Ireland) (No. 2).
Reported.—Edinburgh Police (Amendment and Consolidation of Acts, and Police and Sanitary Improvement); Regent's Quadrant Colonnade.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Shipowners, and Others, of Montrose, Middiesborough, and other Places, against any Alteration of the Navigation Laws.—From Great Baddow, Taunton, and several other Places, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays.—From Places in the County of Lancaster, for the Adoption of a System of Secular Education.—From the Borough of Penryn, against such Provisions of the Public Health Bill as Es-
1126
tablish a General Board of Government.—From numerous Tradesmen and Shopkeepers, praying that the Palace Court at Westminster may be Closed, as regards the Recovery of Debts and Demands under Twenty Pounds.—From Teachers, and Others, within the Police Boundaries of the City of Edinburgh, taking notice of the Provisions of the Edinburgh Police Bill, praying that all Buildings solely Occupied for the Purposes of Science or Education may continue to be Exempt from Taxation.—From Little Bowden, and Market Harborough, in favour of the Charity Trust Regulation Bill,

ALLEGED INTERFERENCE IN THE AFFAIRS OF SICILY.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to put a question to his noble Friend opposite (the Lord President of the Council), of which, if it were deemed necessary, he would now merely give notice it was, whether it was true, as he was informed upon very high authority, that Mr. Fagan, an attaché to the English Minister at Naples, had, upon the 24th July last proceeded, in Her Majesty's ship Porcupine to Palermo, and there thought proper, in breach of his instructions—as he, in charity, was bound to believe—to make a communication to the Provisional Government of Sicily, threatening them with the withdrawal of the countenance, support, and protection of England, if they did not, within twenty-four hours, proceed to choose the Duke of Genoa as King. If he (Lord Brougham) had not received this information from the highest official authority connected with Sicily—and he had only seen that noble person an hour or two before he entered the House—if, indeed, he had not received it first in writing, and secondly by word of mouth, from that distinguished individual—he should have felt unable to believe it possible. Surely Mr. Fagan must know that if there was any one thing more intolerable than another, it was interference of a foreign Government with the dominions of an Ally. Sicily stood towards Naples in the same relation as Ireland towards Great Britain, except that Ireland had no Parliament, whilst Sicily had; but if this thing were once allowed, what was to prevent the King of Naples, if he had the power, from sending a similar communication to the rebels in Ireland? He believed, as he said, it was quite impossible Mr. Fagan could have made this communication, though he had received an assurance of it in writing; and he believed it still more impossible that, if he had made it, he had acted under instructions to that effect. But if Mr. Fagan had made it, then he expected to hear that he had been recalled.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid,

1127
that as his noble and learned Friend had not given him notice of his intention to put this question, he was not prepared to say what Mr. Fagan might have done. This, however, he could at once say, that neither Mr. Fagan, nor any other person in Her Majesty's service, had any instructions to make any communication to the Provisional Government at Palermo of the nature referred to.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDE moved that this Bill he now read 2a.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that they had it stated that in consequence of the financial difficulties of the country, it was impossible to give effect to the Militia Acts, as the 150,000 l which Government proposed at the commencement of the Session to devote to that object could not be spared; and yet they were now asked to devote the large sum that was to be repaid on account of advances in Ireland for the next seven years to the purposes of new loans in that country. He alluded to this fact in order to show that it was no unimportant boon that they were about conferring on Ireland, and not with the view of offering any objection whatever to the principle of the Bill. On the contrary, he was disposed to carry out, as far as it could be carried, the principle on which the Bill had been framed, namely, that the Imperial Treasury would forego, for imperial purposes, its claim to the repayments of all money due by Ireland; that all these moneys should be still collected, but that they should be devoted as they were received to Irish purposes alone. He was perfectly ready to acquiesce in that principle, because it tended to show that there was nothing which Parliament could do to promote the welfare of Ireland that they were not ready to undertake. But he wished it to be understood what the amount of the boon was, which, in this instance, they were about to confer on that country. He believed that ultimately the sum to be devoted to purely Irish purposes, if the principle of this Bill were carried out fully, would be no less than four and a half millions of money. Now, that being the case, and the principle being established that these sums as they were received were to be appropriated only to Irish purposes, they should consider whether the objects provided for by this Bill were the most important objects which the Parliament of this country could have in
1128
view, having at its disposal a sum of four millions and a half of money to be appropriated for the benefit of Ireland. He was of opinion that, however important it was to improve the soil of Ireland, that was not the most desirable object which could be effected with this sum, because he was convinced that, unless they improved the social state of Ireland, everything that they could do for the improvement of the land would be of no avail. The social state of Ireland was a scandal to this country, and a scandal to the age. There was no country in the world, pretending to civilisation, of which the social state was so bad as Ireland. Now, from what circumstance did that defect in the social state of Ireland arise? But on this subject he ought not to speak of all Ireland as coming under the same description. He recollected well hearing the late Lord Liverpool say, "I do not understand what noble Lords mean when they talk of Ireland as being all one; there are two Irelands—North Ireland and South Ireland—Protestant Ireland and Catholic Ireland; and the remarks adapted to the one are wholly un-suited to the circumstances of the other." That was one source of all the difficulties which they had to meet in legislating for that country. But it was not in the Protestant part of Ireland that the disorganisation in her social state existed. There was nothing in the character of the Roman Catholic religion that ought of necessity to lead to the disorganisation of the social state which was found in Ireland. Some of the very best and most prosperous parts of Europe were places in which that religion existed in all its purity. Neither was it because Ireland was a conquered country, nor because large portions of the lands of that country had been confiscated, nor because there had existed in that country for many years laws of persecution. There was hardly a country in Europe or in Asia that had not passed through the same circumstances—that had not been conquered by aliens, and had not been confiscated and subjected to vindictive legislation. But in all other instances the vanquished and the victor were found living in the same community, under the same laws, and mingling in the same social state. But having removed the Roman Catholic disabilities in Ireland—disabilities of which the Young Ireland party had never seen the effect, and of which they knew nothing—what, he would ask, was there still in the state of Ireland

1129
—for there must be something peculiar—which produced this anomaly in its social state, such as never did exist, or never could exist, in any other country in the world? It was, that the Church of the great majority of the people was repudiated by the State. Where would he seek for a remedy for this evil? Not where some had suggested, by attacking the property of the Protestant Church, for the purpose of endowing the Roman Catholic Church. Nothing could be worse in point of justice or in point of honesty than such a course would be. The establishment of the Protestant Church in Ireland rested on the Union, which should be considered sacred; and, besides, such an Act would alicnate the Protestants of Ireland, who were the best friends of British connexion, and who might be called the natural garrison of the country. But he would do it by making the Roman Catholic clergy stipendiaries of the State, and at the same time subjecting them to the right of patronage on the part of the Crown of this country. He did not see his way satisfactorily to the administration of Roman Catholic patronage by a purely Protestant Government. But they sought merely for peace, and did not wish to yield to the prejudices of any party, but desired to do justice by all. He would now call their Lordships' attention to the large fund which they had at their disposal to be appropriated solely to the purposes of Ireland, and he thought that no one could reasonably object to devoting it to the support of the Roman Catholic clergy, for the building of glebe-houses and attaching them to the glebe. He did not see upon what ground the most conscientious person could object to such a proposition. The only effect of it would be to place the Roman Catholic priest in a station of respectability and independence, and to so place him for purposes of good over the people to whom he was a pastor. These were no new opinions in his (the Earl of Ellenborough's) mind; he was no late convert to them; he had formed them at a very early period of his public life, when the late Lord Castlereagh was in power, and they were in consonance with those held by that noble Lord, for Lord Castlereagh, when carrying the Union between the two countries, never contemplated the removal of Catholic disabilities, which was to have accompanied it, without connecting the measure in his own mind with the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy; but
1130
he was deceived in the expectation that he would live to see the project carried into effect. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) had thought it his duty upon that occasion to state his opinion. He considered that the time of difficulty was the time for those whom the constitution entrusted with the duty of legislation to come forward and state their opinions, and not leave them in any doubt. He thought they were bound to do so at the risk even of their popularity, and that the man who hesitated, at a time like the present, to do his duty boldly and fearlessly, by stating his opinions to their Lordships, would be undeserving of the station which he held.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, the noble Earl who had just sat down, would deserve the thanks of the friends of liberal measures for the courage as well as the wisdom of his statement made at the present moment to the House. He (Lord Mont-eagle) approved highly of the sentiment expressed by the noble Earl. He especially agreed cordially with him in his observation that the Roman Catholic clergy should not be endowed out of the funds of the Protestant Church. For if there were any mode by which the matter could be made more distasteful than another to the public, and productive of evil rather than of good, it was a proposition which had sometimes boon popularly put forward that the Protestant Church should afford the funds from which the Roman Catholic clergy should be pensioned. He (Lord Monteagle) also believed, that if they wished to make the proposition distasteful to the Catholic clergy themselves, they would best do so by a proposition which should make it appear as though they wished to place them in a position that they would be subservient to the Government of the day. His noble Friend had wisely rejected such a plan. The great danger which he (Lord Monteagle) apprehended, arose from the condition of dependence of the Roman Catholic clergy. They could not at present act independently. At this side of the water people thought that the priests directed the Irish people; but he could tell them that the people, on the contrary, impelled the priests, and the priests did not act willingly in nine cases out of ten when they took prominent positions in political movements. He, of course, admitted there were exceptions. But in many cases it was under the threat of absolute starvation, which he had actually known to have been

1131
held out to them, that the priests had been obliged to come forward and become agitators. The Irish priest was not in a situation in which any clergyman should be placed. Their Lordships, whatever might be their political or religious sentiments, had all a deep interest in the moral and religious instruction of the Irish people; and it should be the great object to secure them such advantages. Those confederate leaders and members of clubs were persons who had thrown off the trammels of their religion; and the priest knew at once that the persons whom he missed from their religious duties were those who were connected with illegal confederacies. He begged of those who said that their Protestantism prevented them from entertaining the question, to recollect that George the Third, whose Protestantism had never been called in question, opposed as he was to the concession of the Catholic claims, was favourable to the endowment of the Catholic clergy. They might depend upon it that the discussion which the subject would now receive would lead to the general conviction that the great boon suggested by the noble Earl ought to be granted. One word as to the funds from which the endowment could be effected. Should all other sources be found objectionable, no better subject for taxation of Ireland itself was ever submitted to that country, than the raising of a fund for such a purpose. He would say no more upon the subject at present; but in the further progress of the Bill, it would be necessary for him to ask two questions of Her Majesty's Government with respect to the food of the people of Ireland.
LORD STANLEYcould not but express some regret that his noble Friend the noble Earl who sat behind him should have thought it necessary or expedient to take that opportunity of entering upon the discussion of a speculative view of a most extensive and important question, which was not brought regularly under the notice of the House by the measure then before their Lordships. He said "a speculative view," because he did not understand that his noble Friend suggested, nor that he signified his intention of being about to suggest, any direct proposition to the House. Nor, indeed, was it competent to the House to divert to the purposes to which it was proposed to divert the sum of money with reference to which the present Bill had been introduced, even if no difference of opinion on the subject should pre-
1132
vail among their Lordships. But he apprehended that the Bill was brought in for the purpose of legalising the re-issue to Ireland of certain sums which had been repaid out of certain other sums formerly advanced to Ireland out of the Imperial Treasury, and that the re-issue was to be for the same purposes as those for which the grants had been originally sanctioned by Parliament. He apprehended the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde), in making the remarks which he had made upon proposing the second reading of the Bill, had distinctly specified such to be the object; and had stated that, partly from neglect, and partly from circumstances over which the Government had no control, many of the works commenced by means of the former loan, which, if completed, would have been of great national importance and advantage, had been left unfinished; and unless more money were advanced, it would be not only impossible to complete them, but those parts of the country in which they were, could not even be restored to the state in which they were before they were commenced. Now, that was the plain and legitimate purpose of the Bill, and it was one which should not have led to any discussion such as had been raised. That was the legitimate and natural application of the capital. But undoubtedly the circumstances connected with the proposition of his noble Friend would be exceedingly different. He (Lord Stanley) certainly should decline answering to the call of his noble Friend, and discussing upon the subject of a Bill for finishing the unfinished works of Ireland, the propriety of dealing with large sums of money drawn from the Imperial Treasury, and applying them for the purpose of endowing the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. For, disguise it as they might—wrap it up as they pleased—the proposition was, whether they would, out of the Imperial Treasury, endow the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. Now, that was too large a question to be discussed upon the occasion of a Bill for the purpose of merely advancing a loan for a few hundred thousand pounds, to be expended in public works. His noble Friend had laid it down as a fact, that as these few hundred thousand pounds were a payment made by Ireland, they were consequently Irish funds which their Lordships had to deal with. He (Lord Stanley) denied that. He said that it was an expenditure made, not by England solely, or by Ireland solely, but

1133
by the Imperial Treasury, which had made the original advance of the money, and which now proposed to forego payment of the advances immediately. But to say that because Ireland had repaid those funds, they should be deemed to be Irish funds, was, he should say, the most Irish way of looking at the question he had ever heard of. Ireland owed 900,000 l. to England, and had repaid it, and they proposed to deal with it as an imperial fund. "No," said his noble Friend behind him, and "no" said his noble Friend opposite; "remember it is an Irish fund which you are going to lend." But Ireland was not going to pay the money to England. Ireland was only going to repay to England the money which England lent to her before; and to say that therefore it was an Irish property, was a suggestion so strange that he could not properly designate it. He was not going to discuss the question of payment of the Roman Catholic clergy; but theoretically his noble Friend thought that it would be well to expend 900,000 l. for the purpose of erecting glebe-houses.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGH: Four millions and a half.
LORD STANLEY: His noble Friend's proposal then was, that out of an imperial fund, 4,500,000 l. should be applied to the building of glebe-houses, and to the payment of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland. That was not a question of policy only, but of principle also. It was a question of religious principle with a largo portion of the population of this country. He (Lord Stanley) did not look upon it in that light. He did not look upon it as a violation of the Protestant feeling, that this country should make a grant for the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy, for the purpose of making them more respectable in their position. But with a large portion of the people of this country, it was a religious question. With himself, he avowed it was merely a question of State policy; but it was with many a question of religion alone. And when their Lordships approached it, it should not be merely incidentally, but directly upon a proposition made by the Government, and not in the terms of a measure which proposed to regrant four or five millions for the advancement of public works in Ireland. He admitted that the Roman Catholic clergy were frequently too much under the control of their flocks. He admitted that it was desirable they should be less under such a control; but he con-
1134
fessed he was not satisfied with the doctrine laid down by his noble Friend behind him, in the plan which he had mooted, that the Roman Catholic clergy, in being placed in a condition of perfect independence of their flocks, should at the same time not be connected with the State. It would be a matter of policy, or he would plainly say of police with him (Lord Stanley); and he could not assent to the proposal that in doing as had been suggested, they should take no steps to connect the Roman Catholic clergy with the government of that clergy. But the subject was one upon which the whole question should be plainly brought before them before any proposition should be assented to. It was not therefore for the purpose of saying thst under no circumstances would he consent that any grant to the Roman Catholic clergy should be made by the State; nor, on the other band, was it for the purpose of saying that he would consent to such a grant without knowing what quid pro quo was to be demanded in return, that he addressed their Lordships. It was merely for the purpose of deprecating any hasty declaration of opinion being made upon a question which could not be fairly brought under the consideration of the House at present, that he had risen; and he also wished to express his regret that an opportunity which was so inexpedient should have been taken for the purpose of expressing any opinion upon a question that was wholly unconnected with the subject of debate. Her Majesty's Government, if they intended to make such a proposition as that of granting salaries to the Roman Catholic clergy, should bring it forward distinctly upon the full responsibility of the Government, and with a statement of the funds from which the endowment was to be provided, and of the terms upon which it was to be granted. He concurred in the declaration of his noble Friend that the source should not be the funds of the Protestant Church of Ireland; and that as it would be a local charge it should not be paid out of the Imperial Treasury, but out of funds raised upon Irish property. At the same time he confessed he thought that such a proposal would deprive his noble Friends of the support of many who now favoured the idea of endowing the Roman Catholic clergy. The proposition would meet with a great deal of opposition from the Protestants of England and of Scotland, and the north of Ireland; but he should conclude by repeating that the

1135
question was of far too great importance to be discussed until it should be brought before them with full notice, and upon the responsibility of Government.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, that whenever the question of the endowment of the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland was raised, the question of the Established Church was considered to be directly involved in it. That should not be. The Established Church of Ireland might be an anomaly, but it was not a grievance. But the anomaly would be considerably increased if they were to have the clergy of another Church connected with the State as well as those of the originally Established Church. They would, besides, cause a division amongst the Roman Catholic clergy if they were to connect them with the State. What they ought to do should be to make the Catholic clergy independent of their flocks and of the State besides. He thought the plan proposed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) was the best that could have been suggested. The great advantage which would result from the adoption of the course suggested by the noble Earl opposite, would not only relieve them from any coercion they were now under on the part of their flocks, but it would enable them to avoid all political altercations. They would then be in a position to attend solely to the religious instruction of their parishioners. Instead of being mere citizens of the world, as they then wore, and looking to themselves merely as a largo body scattered over the country, and not more attached to this empire than to any other—for this feeling no doubt pervaded a large portion of the Catholic clergy in Ireland—they would become strongly attached to it. He should be glad if, by some step on the part of the Government; such as by a grant of money, or by other means, they could see the priests attached to British connexion, and have a direct interest in the welfare of the State. He believed that this would be a great measure of good to Ireland; and, above all, he believed that the greatest good would be produced by a great impetus being given to education, and he should grudge no amount of money for this purpose.
Bill read 2a.

CHARITY TRUST REGULATION BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
LORD STANLEYrose to object to the Motion. It must be in the recollection of the House that a right rev. Prelate on a former occasion expressed a strong hope that it was not the intention of the Government to persist in pressing this Bill at that period of the Session, and he cordially concurred in this opinion. Before they proceeded with the measure, it should be shown that there were circumstances of an urgent character which had presented themselves to Her Majesty's Government, so as to prevent them proceeding with this measure; but this had not been done. He deprecated the practice of introducing into that or the other House of Parliament measures at such a period of the Session, when it was clearly impossible that they could meet with due consideration. He believed that there was no reason whatever why this measure was not brought forward at the opening of the Session, and he certainly had not heard a shadow of excuse made why it had not then been brought forward. They had been told that the Bill was similar to that which was introduced last year. If that was the case, the Government should have made up their minds to have brought it forward at the commencement of the Session; for during the whole Session he had been urging on the Government not to crowd measures before the House at the end of the Session, and leave the House of Lords no business to attend to at the early part of it. It would appear that Her Majesty's Government were in full possession of this measure; there, therefore, could have been no difficulty in introducing it to the House for discussion many months ago. A right reverend Prelate had put a question some months ago to the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack, as to whether it was the intention of the Government to bring forward a measure for the better regulation of the management of charities; and the noble and learned Lord answered that it was possible that some measure might be framed in the course of the present Session for dealing with minor charities. After this question had been put by the right reverend Prelate, not less than three months had been allowed to elapse, namely, to the middle of July, before the noble and learned Lord moved that this Bill be printed; and the Bill was brought forward for discussion last week in the absence of four-fifths of the Members of that House, and at a period of the Session when the ther House was overwhelmed with the consideration of business.

1137
At such a period a measure was I brought forward for discussion which involved principles altogether new, and embodied the most extensive changes. The noble and learned Lord admitted that some of the changes proposed were of great importance, and were a departure from the principles hitherto acted upon in the management of charities, and he therefore consented to throw over a great portion of his propositions, but added that he was anxious to pass that part of the Bill which related to the minor charities in the present Session. This was not the manner in which the Government should be carried on for the purposes of legislation, or in which measures which that and the other House were called on to pass should be framed. He understood that it was intended in the present Session not to pass any portion of the Bill connected with educational charities, but that these must be attended to at any early period of the next Session; he would therefore suggest, as so largo a portion of the Bill was to be postponed, that they should put it off altogether until the commencement of the next year, when the whole subject could be maturely considered, instead of proceeding to deal with it by piecemeal. If noble Lords would examine the clauses which were to be retained in the Bill, they would observe that although it pretended to deal only with charities with revenues under 30 l. a year, yet that, practically, it allowed every charity to be placed under its operation. It was certainly desirable to have the power of checking the expenditure of charities, the revenues of which were under 20 l. or 30 l. a year, summarily and without expense; but it was a question as to whether or not the County Courts were the fittest tribunal to adjudicate in the matter. If they looked to the expense of these courts, there could be no doubt as to its being very large. A return had recently been laid on the table as to the expense of some of these courts on a portion of the Home Circuit. It appeared that the total number of plaints lodged before the courts was 22,000. The total number of judgments given was 18,000; but not one-half of the amount of these judgments had yet been paid into court. But for these 18,000 judgments the fees of the court amounted to 4,000 l., and those fees constituted 25 per cent of the whole of the money paid into court. He believed these courts were to have the power of
1138
making orders for the management of charities, without any restriction on the Judges. He objected to invest any body of men with such a power without ample notice being given for the consideration of the matter. Then how were these courts to be set in motion? What security was there against the whole amount of the funds of these charities being absorbed in litigation in these courts? He found, also, that there was no restriction as to the costs of appearing in a case of this kind, for the Judge might make the award in any manner which he thought fit, and this without any appeal, for the judgment was declared to be final. Now, suppose the case of any charity connected with the Established Church, any Dissenter residing in the place where the charity existed, if he pleased, might apply to the Judge to make a new scheme for the management of the charity, and for which he might be liable to none of the expenses, but might saddle the charity with charges more than the whole amount of its revenue. This was a large power, which should not be delegated to such tribunals without the most full consideration, and without ample checks. It was true that a statement of any proposed new scheme for a charity must be published in the county newspaper; but there was no provision in the Bill for hearing objections to it, for after the Judge had promulgated the scheme, they were told that he must deposit it in some public place; but there was nothing to prevent its being carried into effect, however objectionable it might be, for the decision of the Judge was final and conclusive. On the 19th of July, when this important Bill was introduced, it was admitted by the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack to be of a most novel character, and which should receive full consideration, as it involved principles of no minor importance. Was it too much, then, for him, on the 4th of August, when they were invited to proceed to the consideration of a Bill the introduction of which had been postponed from February to July, to ask noble Lords to postpone it from August to next June? At this time also the House of Commons was so overwhelmed with business, that they were obliged to sit from twelve in the morning to two or three on the following morning. He was astonished that Her Majesty's Government should think it to be decent to introduce this important Bill, and send it down to the House of Com-

1139
mons, where it could only go through the mere form of passing it through its various stages. Seeing, then, that this Bill might have been introduced at an earlier period of the Session, and trusting also that the House would not sanction the principle of postponing the introduction of all measures into this House until the end of the Session, but at the same time admitting that in some respects the measure might be made useful and valuable, but on the principle that such a Bill should not be introduced at such a time—and if any inconvenience should arise from postponing it, it arose from the course of proceeding on the part of the Government—he trusted that their Lordships would think that he was justified in moving that the Committee on the Bill be postponed until that day three months.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that it appeared to him that the objections of the noble Lord were not so much to the principle of the Bill, for he had intimated that hereafter he might be induced to support it, as to the time when it was introduced. Now this objection would apply to every measure which might be brought forward at a late period of the Session, and even to one which might contain provisions which it was essential to pass without delay. He would undertake to prove to their Lordships in a very short space of time that there were enactments proposed in this Bill which were of very great necessity, and the delaying of which would be attended with great inconvenience. Although some of the provisions of the Bill which he now asked the House to assent to, were new, the subject had long been under the attention of the Government. The present Bill contained some very pressing matters, but there were other provisions on the subject which he had originally introduced into the Bill. These, no doubt, were of very great importance, but they did not call for the immediate decision of Parliament. He had thought that the plan which had been proposed with respect to the minor charities would meet with the approbation of all, and that the tribunal which had been selected, to which they were to be referred, would not have been objected to. If the noble Lord would look at matters dispassionately, he would see that it was not one which it was necessary to delay for the purpose of long consideration. He could not help feeling that the noble Lord had not taken notice of the
1140
real objects of the Bill, or of the evils to which it was intended to he applied. Was the noble Lord aware that at present, as regarded the large proportion of the charities which at present existed in this country, there was no remedy which could be applied with respect to the maladministration of their funds, for their revenues were so small that they never would bear the expenses of applying to the Court of Chancery. It had always been felt that some means should be devised for the management of the funds of such charities. There had been great difficulty in finding a proper jurisdiction, for formerly no local jurisdiction like the County Courts existed. It was proposed some years ago to make a number of new tribunals, specially for the superintendence of these charities; but this proposition was objectionable in consequence of the expense and patronage which would be involved in the adoption of the plan. They had thus had two years' experience of the mode of carrying on local jurisdiction in these courts; and on reflection he felt strongly they were well able to undertake the duties imposed by this Bill. The noble Lord complained of the expense of these courts. When they were first established it was impossible to tell with anything like exactness the amount of fees which would be required to defray the expenses of the courts; but after mature deliberation a table of fees was drawn up. It appeared, however, that the amount of fees received in some of these courts was so large that in some instances the Judges and officers of the court had received more than they ought to have received. After the experience which they had had, and after they had been able to calculate the expenses of the courts with some accuracy, he was ready to admit that it would be proper to reduce the fees, so that the amount collected should not be more than was necessary to pay the expenses of the courts; and he hoped before long a plan would be adopted by which the fees would be reduced one-half. Every one of the Judges of the County Courts had accepted office with the distinct understanding that they were to perform any duties which Parliament might impose on them, without having any larger remuneration than that which they received under the County Courts Act; and it was extremely important that when the salaries were about to be fixed, it should be clearly ascertained what dutes there would be to perform.

1141
That was one very good reason why Parliament should at once determine whether it would, or would not, transfer to the Judges in question the proposed jurisdiction. The passing of this Bill was, however, most important in relation to the charities themselves. It was proposed to deal with 48,000 charities, for a large proposition of which there were no trustees provided, and no means of ensuring their satisfactory administration. The funds would, under the provisions of the Bill, he paid into the hands of the treasurer of the County Courts, who was to be the depository of the legal estate; but, instead of that officer having the management of the property, its administration was to be left to the trustees. If their Lordships would allow the Bill to go into Committee, he would then state what alterations he intended to suggest; but no satisfactory discussion could take place before, inasmuch as there was no objection to the principle of the measure. He would observe that there existed at present a great want of the means of local investigation, and it was Proposed to take powers for supplying that defect. It was extremely desirable that such arrangements should be made, that parties would not he obliged to bring all their witnesses and papers up to London. No one need be afraid that the proposed jurisdiction would be abused; but if any better mode of preventing abuse could be suggested than that Provided by the Bill, he should he happy to assent to it. He again submitted that the Bill ought not to be rejected because it had not been introduced sooner. If good in itself, it should be allowed to pass. Even as regarded the objection of time, he must remind their Lordships that the Bill had been before them three weeks, and that there was no other urgent business pressing on their attention at that moment.
LORD REDESDALEregretted that the noble and learned Lord had treated the objection to the time when the Bill had been introduced in the manner that he had done. It was all very well to talk about three weeks being enough to consider the Bill; but there were several parts to which he objected, and he could not, in so short a Period, form a correct opinion of the details of such a subject. The Bill had been withheld until a period of the Session when many Peers were absent, and when there was no opportunity for proper deliberation; and he thought their Lordships would, under all the circum-
1142
stances of the case, be fully justified in postponing the consideration of it until next Session.
The BISHOP of OXFORDsaid, he must vote against going into Committee. He fully admitted the greatness of the evil; but it did not follow from that that he should take at random the first moans of meeting it which might be suggested. The very circumstance that these charities were so numerous, made it the more imperative that their Lordships should legislate with care, and make themselves acquainted with all the details. The measure was one especially of a parochial character; the charities affected by it were almost all of early foundation; and it was impossible, within so short a space of time, to acquire the requisite amount of information. Nearly all that was most important in the Bill was not to he found in the Bill of last year. No care was taken by the framers of the measure to prevent any possible abuse of the jurisdiction to be exercised. A shrewd Dissenting attorney, holding the office of Judge, might, under its operation, divert Church property from its proper object, and apply it to objects not contemplated, on the ground that he thought the new application would be beneficial. It was alien to the character of that House to sanction such a method of dealing with property of that description. On a former occasion, indeed, the noble and learned Lord on the woolsack had stated that he was opposed to the giving powers to Commissioners to change trusts, observing that to do so was to act on a novel principle in legislation. Yet the noble and learned Lord now proposed to give such powers, not to Commissioners, or to persons of high standing, but to every Judge of a County Court in England. Much as he (the Bishop of Oxford) desired to see some remedy provided for great and admitted evils, he felt that had legislation on such a subject was exceedingly dangerous; that while it was very difficult to retrace a wrong step, it was very easy to do an injustice; and he thought the House ought to have an opportunity of further considering the subject before it came to a division. Unless the Bill were fairly considered by a Select Committee, and fully deliberated upon by their Lordships, the passing of it could lead to no satisfactory result.
On question that the word "now" stand part of the question, House divided:—Contents 21; Non-Contents 17; Majority 4.

List of the CONTENTS.

The Lord Chancellor.

BARONS.

MARQUESSES.

Langdale

Lansdowne

Camoys

Clanricarde.

Colborne

EARLS.

Byron

Waldegrave

Monteagle

Grey

Campbell

Minto

Beaumont

Auckland

Milford

Granville.

Wrottesley

Morley

Leitrim

Strafford.

Eddisbury.

Paired off.

FOR.

AGAINST.

Earl Spencer

Earl of Malmesbury

Earl Fortescue

Lord Colchester

Lord Foley

Lord Templemore

Lord Sudeley

Earl of Stradbroke

Bishop of Norwich

Earl of Tankerville

Earl of Radnor

Lord Sondes

Earl Fitzhardinge

Earl of Digby

Bishop of Hereford

Lord Skelmersdale

Lord Crewe

Earl Jersey

Duke of Grafton

Earl of Cardigan

Lord Brougham

Duke of Beaufort

Earl of Scarborough

Lord Forester

Earl of Charlemont

Lord Beauchamp

Lord Carrington

Earl of Hardwicke

Lord De Mauley

Earl of Glengall.

House in Committee.
Amendment made; other Amendments moved and negatived. Report to be received.
House adjourned.