Sitting of 4 May 1847

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. C. Buller, from Members of the Liskeard Literary Institution, in favour of the Health of Towns Bill.—By Mr. Pulsford, from Robert Allen Kidley, of Hereford, in favour of the Medical Registration and Medical Law Amendment Bill—By Sir R. Ferguson, from Members of the Parochial Board of Dysart, against the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. O. Gore, from Andrew Moseley, of 53, Great Ormond Street, Queen Square, London, suggesting a Plan for Smithfield Market.

DUBLIN IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Upon the Order for the Second Reading of the Dublin Improvement Bill,
MR. GROGAN MR. GROGAN moved as an Amendment that the Bill be read a second time that day six months. Despite of the petition presented by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), a vast majority of the wealth and intelligence of the city of Dublin were opposed to the Bill; and that petition could not really be signed by rate payers, for the number of ratepayers in Dublin was only 18,000, whereas the petition presented by the right hon. Gentle man was signed by 35,000 persons. The Commissioners appointed to consider the propriety of the changes contemplated by the Bill, had strongly opposed it; and the evidence heard before them fully justified the conclusions to which they had come. It was a mistake to suppose that the ratepayers would be relieved from taxation by the operation of the present Bill. The hon. Gentleman concluded by making his Motion.
MR. M. J. O'CONNELLcontended that at that hour in the evening it was impossible that the House could come to a sound decision. So much noise and conversation prevailed in every part of the House, that

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nothing could be heard of the statements made at either side. He defended the Bill, and contended that they ought to consider it in Committee. He thought that a sufficient case had been made out for the House to go into Committee on the Bill—a Bill which he was of opinion would confer much advantage on the city of Dublin. No doubt faults might be found with the management of some of the wards; but the division of the six wards on the north side of the river was not for the purposes that had been stated; and he doubted whether the reconstitution of the wards would satisfy the persons who complained.
MR. GREGORYsaid, that if the House would look at the evidence which had been laid upon the Table, it would not hesitate to reject the Bill. The wealth and intelligence of Dublin were against the Bill, and the petitions got up in favour of it were the work of imposture. To show the practices had recourse to, an Orange placard (which the hon. Gentleman produced), calling upon Protestants to oppose the Bill, and, appealing to the sectarian and religious bigotry of the citizens, had been posted on the walls of Dublin. This placard, apparently put forward by the Protestants against the Roman Catholics, had naturally excited the hostility of the latter; but it turned out that the placard had not been put forward cither by Protestants or by the genuine opponents of the Bill, but by the parties connected with Conciliation Hall, with a view to throw odium and discredit on the opponents of the present measure. This episode manifested the system adopted by its supporters. The corporation of Dublin had performed its duties in a sectarian spirit, and ought not to be trusted with the vast powers granted by the Bill.
MR. LABOUCHEREsupported the second reading of the Bill, with a view to sending it before a Committee up stairs. The two hon. Gentlemen opposite who opposed the measure, expressed their opinions as rather unfavourable to the existence of municipal corporations in Ireland, of the same nature as those which were possessed by the great towns of England and Scotland. Now, however respectable the persons in Dublin might be who opposed this Bill, he would vote for the second reading, because he thought that Dublin had a right to the same municipal institutions as the great towns of England and Scotland. He thought it would be unseemly and dangerous and improper to deny to Dublin the
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same advantages which other great cities of the empire enjoyed as regarded municipal institutions. On that account, and without pledging himself to support the details of the measure, he would vote for it in the present stage, in order to send it before a Committee. He would admit that the corporation had acted on too exclusively political principles—he regretted that in such an important city as Dublin, which ought to set an example to the rest of Ireland, sectarian feeling should be exhibited. But he would ask was it surprising that such feelings existed? What corporation was it which the present corporation succeeded? It was a corporation which exhibited religious and political feelings of the most exclusive kind. Was it not then human nature that such a system should produce reaction, and that when those who had been so long excluded came into power they would exhibit some of those feelings? But he would trust to public opinion and experience to correct that, and he would not allow it to be made in his mind a reason for restricting municipal rights. The corporation of Belfast applied some few years ago, when the right hon. Baronet opposite was in office, for powers of a more extensive kind than those proposed by this Bill, and they were granted; nor was the exclusive character of the corporation of Belfast rendered a cause for refusing the demand of that corporation. The corporation of Belfast was of such an exclusive character that there was not a single Catholic admitted to the corporation since the passing of the Municipal Reform Bill; and the Protestants admitted into it were all of Conservative opinions. Did he therefore mention that as a reason for depriving Belfast of the advantage of municipal institutions? Far from it, for he was prepared to bear with some abuses of that kind for the purpose of obtaining the good that resulted from such institutions. There was a great principle involved; and he hoped that it would not be made a question of petty local politics, but that they would show a desire to give to Ireland not only the name but the reality of equal institutions with ourselves. If the Bill were sent before a Committee, it was his intention to move that the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department be named on the Committee, with a view to directing inquiry as to the public offices through whose agency the functions of the local boards were exercised.
MR. SHAWwould detain the House

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but a few minutes in stating his reasons for voting against the second reading of the Bill. Considering his connexion with the corporation and the city of Dublin, he would rather not have voted under ordinary circumstances; and for the many years he had been a Member of that House, he could not recollect that he had ever voted against the second reading of a private Bill. But the truth was, that Bill was not brought forward under ordinary circumstances, and that it could not fairly be called a private Bill. He disclaimed every party and political motive in opposing it. He would not be tempted by the observations of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) to compare the exclusiveness of the old with that of the new corporation of Dublin. He would not refer to the constitution of the present corporation; for, constituted how it might be, he did not believe they would be competent to exercise the great powers that Bill would confer; and sure he was, that the question whether the functions at present discharged under old charters and Acts of Parliament by various important boards in the city of Dublin, should be suddenly transferred to the new corporation, was one of public policy that could not properly be decided by means of a private Bill. Then, again, the principal reason why the second reading of a private Bill was seldom refused by the House was this—that, as the parties brought it forward at their own private expense, it was considered but reasonable to give them a fair hearing before a Committee. Such, however, was not the case in the present instance; for the Bill was brought forward at the expense of a borough rate raised upon the city of Dublin at large, to be paid in a very large proportion by the opponents of the measure; for he had never known a subject upon which greater unanimity of opinion prevailed in the city of Dublin, without distinction of party, politics, or religion, than there did against that measure. The Duke of Leinster headed the list of the representatives of property in Dublin in subscribing to oppose the Bill. The Crosthwaites, the Latouches, the Guinnesses—all the mercantile firms of liberal politics—were to be found in the same list. A paper had just been put into his hand, from which it appeared that the Council of the Chamber of Commerce, composed of twenty-six persons, ton of them being Roman Catholics, and seven others of polities opposed to Conservative, making' seventeen
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out of twenty-six of what were called liberal politics, were the leading opponents of the measure. He would defy any Gentleman opposite who supported the Bill to name any one banker, merchant, independent trader, or resident of weight or property in the city of Dublin, of any politics, party, or sect, not connected with the corporation, who approved of the measure. They had, on the contrary, almost universally subscribed their names, with considerable sums of money annexed to them, for the purpose of opposing the Bill; and it really amounted to this, that those persons, representing nearly the whole property of Dublin, would have, first as ratepayers, to pay for the promotion of the Bill, and afterwards, as private individuals, to put their hands into their pockets and bear the whole cost of resisting it before a Committee; in short, the measure had none of the characteristics of a private Bill, and he trusted the House would not allow it to be treated or read a second time as such.
MR. SHEILhad presented a petition from Dublin, signed by 9,000 persons, in favour of this Bill, and representing property of the value of 221,000 l. The facts stated in the report of the Commissioners who visited Dublin were conclusive as to the necessity of a change. The Commissioners found that the different boards intrusted with the sanitary charge of the city did not do their duty. The sewers of Dublin were in a lamentable state. The next fact was, that a great saving to the public would be effected by concentrating all the powers now held by different boards into one body. There must then be a change; and the next question was, in whom these powers should be invested? Some hon. Members proposed to neutralize the municipal authorities; but it should be remembered that the corporation of Dublin were elected by a 10 l. franchise, and that a franchise to that amount was a condition on which the Conservative party agreed to give a municipal corporation to Dublin. The corporation must, therefore, be held to be the representative of the ratepayers of Dublin; and the House was bound to invest them with the same powers which they gave to corporations in other parts of the kingdom. Now Manchester, Liverpool, Glasgow, and Chester, all had the same powers that were sought to be given to the corporation of Dublin by this Bill. Would they withhold from the metropolis of Ireland, with a 10 l. franchise, the same powers which were exercised by towns in

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England and Scotland, having only a 5l. franchise? He did not think hon. Gentlemen opposite, who remembered the declaration of the right hon. Baronet the late Prime Minister at the end of last Session, would concur in throwing out this Bill. That right hon. Gentleman said—"He would extend to Ireland all the rights enjoyed by England; all the civil, political, and municipal rights of England."
The EARL of LINCOLNthought it necessary for the House to reflect whether, by passing the measure before them, they would be assimilating the law of Ireland with that of England. By the English Municipal Corporation Act, boards for sewerage and drainage might, if they thought fit, hand over their powers and functions to the town-councils; but it was not compulsory upon them to do so. Two years ago, when preparing his Bill on the health of towns, he made some inquiries as to how far this voluntary amalgamation had taken place. He found that in very few cases had the local boards made over their powers to the town-councils. In almost all the large towns in England the functions sought to be intrusted to the corporation of Dublin, were exercised by paving and local boards. If the House thought it right to give these powers to the corporations of Ireland, let them do so, but not by a private Bill. He had shown that this Bill proposed, not an assimilation between the practice in England and in Ireland, but a wide deviation from it, when it gave to the corporation of Dublin compulsory powers which the noble Lord opposite had not thought it right to confer upon town-councils in England. He thought that, considering the feeling existing in Dublin respecting this Bill, it ought to be withdrawn. Let the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) bring the opposing parties together, and then produce a Bill next Session on the part of the Government which should be free from the objections felt to this measure by the ratepayers of Dublin.
MR. DILLON BROWNEobserved, that this was a subject deeply affecting the rights of the Irish people; for the question was, whether the same municipal institutions which were enjoyed by the people of this country were to be extended to them. If they were anxious to maintain the union between the two countries, they would give the people of Ireland similar municipal institutions to those which had been established in this country.
The House divided on the question that the word "now" stand part of the Question:—Ayes 108; Noes 120; Majority 12.

List of the AYES.

Aldam, W.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Antrobus, E.

Lawless, hon. C.

Armstrong, Sir A.

Layard, Maj.

Arundel and Surrey, Earl of

Le Marchant, Sir D.

Loch, J.

Austen, Col.

Macaulay, rt. hn. T. B.

Baine, W.

M'Carthy, A.

Bannerman, A.

M'Taggart, Sir J.

Baring, rt. hon. F. T.

Maher, N.

Barnard, E. G.

Maitland, T.

Barron, Sir H. W.

Mangles, R. D.

Bellew, R. M.

Marshall, W.

Bernal, R.

Marsland, H.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Moffatt, G.

Bowring, Dr.

Monahan, J. H.

Bright, J.

Morris, D.

Brotherton, J.

O'Brien, C.

Brown, W.

O'Brien, T.

Buller, C.

O'Conor Don

Butler, P. S.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Byng, rt. hon. G. S.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Callaghan, D.

Parker, J.

Cayley, E. S.

Pinney, W.

Chapman, B.

Plumridge, Capt.

Cholmeley, Sir M.

Price, Sir R.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Rawdon, Col.

Conyngham, Lord A.

Rice, E. R.

Crawford, W. S.

Rich, H.

Dawson, hon. T. V.

Romilly, J.

Dennistoun, J.

Ross, D. R.

Duncan, Visct.

Russell, Lord J.

Duncan, G.

Russell, Lord C. J. F.

Duncombe, T.

Rutherfurd, A.

Dundas, Sir D.

Scrope, G. P.

Ebrington, Visct.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Escott, B.

Smith, B.

Evans, W.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Evans, Sir De L.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Ewart, W.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Ferguson, Col.

Stanton, W. H.

Forster, M.

Strickland, Sir G.

Gibson, rt. hon. T. M.

Strutt, rt. hon. E.

Gisborne, T.

Tancred, H. W.

Hall, Sir B.

Thornely, T.

Hatton, Capt. V.

Towneley, J.

Hay, Sir A. L.

Trelawny, J. S.

Heron, Sir R.

Tufnell, H.

Hill, Lord M.

Villiers, hon. C.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Ward, H. G.

Howard, P. H.

Watson, W. H.

Hume, J.

Wawn, J. T.

Humphery, Ald.

Winnington, Sir T. E.

Hutt, W.

Wyse, T.

James, W.

TELLERS.

Jervis, Sir J.

O'Connell, M. J.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Browne, R. D.

List of the NOES.

Acland, T. D.

Bankes, G.

Adderley, C. B.

Beckett, W.

Archdall, Capt. M.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Arkwright, G.

Bentinck, Lord H.

Ashley, hon. H.

Beresford, Maj.

Bagot, hon. W.

Blackburne, J. I.

Bailey, J., jun.

Boldero, H. G.

Baille, H. J.

Bowles, Adm.

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Bramston, T. W.

Jones, Capt.

Brisco, M.

Knight, F. W

Brooke, Lord

Lawson, A.

Bruce, C. L. C.

Lennox, Lord G. H. G.

Buck, L. W.

Lincoln, Earl of

Burroughes, H. N.

Lindsay, Col.

Carew, W. H. P.

Lockhart, A. E.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Lowther, Sir J. H.

Clayton, R. R.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Clive, Visct.

Mackenzie, T.

Collett, W. R.

Manners, Lord C. S.

Compton, H. C.

Manners, Lord J.

Corry, rt. hon. H.

Masterman, J.

Cripps, W.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.

Deedes, W.

Mildmay, H. St. John

Denison, E. B.

Munday, E. M.

Dick, Q.

Newdegate, C. N.

Disraeli, B.

Newport, Visct.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Newry, Visct.

Douglas, J. D. S.

O'Brien, A. S.

Duckworth, Sir J. T. B.

Packe, C. W.

Duncombe, hon. O.

Pakington, Sir J.

Egerton, W. T.

Palmer, G.

Fielden, Sir W.

Plumptre, J. P.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Prime, R.

Ferrand, W. B.

Rashleigh, W.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Repton, G. W. J.

Floyer, J.

Round, C. G.

Fuller, A. E.

Round, J.

Gaskell, J. M.

Seymer, H. K.

Gladstone, Capt.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Gooch, E. S.

Sheppard T.

Gore, M.

Shirley, E. J.

Gore, W. O.

Shirley, E. P.

Gore, W. R. O.

Smith, A.

Goring, C.

Somerset, Lord G.

Granby, Marq. of

Spooner, R.

Grimsditch, T.

Sutton, hon. H. M.

Halford, Sir H.

Taylor, E.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Tollemache, J.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Tower, C.

Harris, hon. Capt.

Trotter, J.

Heneage, G. H. W.

Verner, Sir W.

Henley, J. W.

Villiers, Visct.

Hill, Lord E.

Vivian, J. E.

Hodgson, R.

Vyse, H.

Hope, Sir J.

Walpole, S. H.

Hotham, Lord

Walsh, Sir J. B.

Houldsworth, T.

Yorke, hon. E. T.

Hudson, G.

Young, J.

Hussey, T.

Ingestre, Visct.

TELLERS.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Gregory, H. W.

Jocelyn, Visct.

Grogan, E.

Second reading put off for six months.

FEES IN COURTS OF LAW.
MR. WATSON MR. WATSON moved for—
"A Select Committee to inquire into and report to the House on the Taxation of Suitors in the Courts of Law and Equity by the collection of Fees, and the amount thereof, and the mode of collection; and the appropriation of Fees in the Courts of Law and Equity, and in all inferior Courts, and in the Courts of Special and General Sessions in England and Wales; and as to the Salaries and Fees received by officers of those Courts; and whether any and what means could be adopted, with a view of superintending and regulating the collection and appropriation thereof"
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The hon. Gentleman said, the matter was of immense importance; for delays and expense gave a great advantage to dishonest parties, and threw obstacles in the way of honest suitors. Every person must be aware of the immense extent to which fees were collected in courts of justice—fees of the foundation or origin of which no reasonable account could be given. A full and searching inquiry should therefore be instituted into the origin and amount, the legality and justice of those fees. In 1845, the total amount of the sums collected in fees and otherwise from suitors in Courts of Equity and Common Law amounted to 250,807 l., and the ostensible object was to pay salaries and compensations for abolished offices. This enormous sum was paid by the officers who collected the fees, without the slightest check being in existence to secure an honest return. The courts of law were particularly objectionable, inasmuch as more was collected in fees than was necessary to pay the salaries and compensation allowances of the officers. In the three years ending with 1843 the Court of Queen's Bench paid into the Consolidated Fund, as the surplus which remained after paying the salaries and allowances, the sum of 50,128 l.; the Exchequer, 46,127 l.; the Common Pleas, 4,731 l., One cause of the great increase which had taken place in the amount of fees, was the delay which occurred in the disposal of causes. At Westminster Hall there was only the same number of Judges as officiated in the time of Queen Elizabeth and of Edward III.—five in each court—whilst the money paid into the Consolidated Fund, being the balance which remained after paying all expenses, averaged from 30,000 l. to 40,000 l. a year. He thought the suitors had a right to require that the fees exacted from them should be applied to the purpose for which they were ostensibly levied—the payment of a sufficient number of Judges to secure the speedy administration of justice. He thought the number of Judges should be increased by one or two in each court. In the Courts of Bankruptcy, Lunacy, and similar tribunals, fees were also levied, and there was not the slightest check upon the accuracy of the return. In connexion with the inquiry, which he hoped the House would agree to, was the question of how far it was right and proper that fees should be levied at all from persons who sought justice, and how far the expense should not be borne by the nation, care

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being taken that no improper suits were instituted. Upon that question, however, he would not enter upon that occasion. He had understood that objections had been taken to that part of his Motion which related to the compensation allowances which were paid to certain officers; and rather than endanger the other branch of the inquiry he would consent to the exclusion of the part which related to such compensations, reserving to himself, however, the right of bringing forward that subject upon some future occasion, should be deem it proper to do so.
MR. ROMILLYseconded the Motion. The proposed inquiry was intimately connected with the great question of law reform, one of the essential characteristics of which was that law should be made as cheap and expeditious as possible. It was commonly said that a person who embarked in a suit ought to bear the expense of putting and keeping the machinery of the law in motion; but this, he thought, was a mistaken view of the question, as it was the public who actually derived the benefit of the administration of justice. It appeared to him to be as wrong to compel a person to pay for obtaining justice in a court of law as it would be to compel a person who had his house robbed or his person assaulted to pay for the expense of the police. He hoped the ultimate result of the inquiry sought for by his hon. and learned Friend would be the establishment of the principle that, instead of taxing suitors to the extent of 100,000 l. a year for the benefit of the country, the converse should be the case, and that the country should bear the whole expense of upholding the administration of justice. He hoped that another object to be gained by the appointment of a Committee would be the convincing of the House and the Government of the importance of the subject to which he called attention at the close of the last Session of Parliament—the absolute necessity which existed for having a department of the Government devoted to the superintendence of the administration of justice. That duty was now discharged by the Home Office and the Lord Chancellor; but these departments were absolutely overburdened with work already, and to throw additional work upon them was merely to increase the amount of business which would remain undone. The dislike which he felt to the bringing forward of any abstract question, and not having had sufficient time to prepare a Bill on the subject, had prevented
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him from bringing the subject so prominently before the House as his sense of its importance would have otherwise induced him; but he would say, that he deemed it essential to the right administration of justice and to the progress of safe, salutary, and progressive reform in the law itself, that a Minister, unconnected with its administration, should be appointed to superintend the working of every court of justice throughout the country. This arrangement would supersede the necessity 6f issuing commissions of inquiry; the results of which were too frequently the accumulation of a mass of crude suggestions, which for the most part could not be converted into anything practically useful. In regard to fees, the present state of the Court of Chancery was as bad as it could be. There was no check upon the officers who collected the fees. They were merely required to swear by affidavit that the return was correct; and he did not think it right that so strong a temptation to make a dishonest return as existed at present should be allowed to remain. The fact was notorious—still he did not choose to mention names—that the successor of one of the officers who had died, had, without any visible increase having taken place in the business of the court, paid a half more fees to the Consolidated Fund than had been paid by his predecessor. This circumstance could not fail to give rise to the gravest apprehensions as to the kind of returns which were made.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that when a similar Motion was made at the time the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth was in office, that right hon. Gentleman stated he had no objection to the inquiry, in so far as the question of fees was concerned; and when his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department was asked the same question, he stated he should have no objection to the inquiry to the extent approved of by the head of the late Government. Under these circumstances it was not his (the Attorney General's) intention to offer any objection to the Motion, the words relating to the compensation allowances being omitted. Still he did not wish it to be understood that he adopted much of what had been said in connexion with the Motion, as to the manner in which the fees ought to be applied. That question would more properly be disposed of by the House after the inquiry had terminated.
MR. HUME, after referring to the results of the inquiry which he proposed fourteen years ago on the fees of the courts, expressed his belief that the appointment of this Committee would issue in great benefit to the people. But, as an old reformer, he would just say that he had found it almost impossible to effect a reform where personal interests were concerned; and the first step should be to abolish the fee system.
Motion agreed to.

SMITHFIELD MARKET.
MR. O. GORE, in nominating the Members to constitute the Select Committee on Smithfield Market, apologized for the delay which had taken place, and assured the House that it had arisen from a desire to secure a full, a searching, and, above all things, an impartial inquiry. Since giving notice of the names of the Committee, he had received an intimation from the Government that it would be desirable to place the names of two Members, one connected with the city, and the other with a metropolitan county, on the list; and he, therefore, proposed to substitute Lord Robert Grosvenor for Mr. Baring, and Mr. Lyall for Mr. Burroughes. In connexion with this change, the hon. Member spoke of having the Committee so constituted as to prevent its decision from being biassed by considerations arising out of the anticipated general election. He knew of one body of men who had considerable influence at elections, who were strongly opposed to the removal of the alleged nuisance; but he did not think that the feelings and interests of these men should be allowed to stand in the way of the public good.
COLONEL T. WOODthought that in a matter which affected the supplies and convenience of 2,000,000 of persons, it was only fair that at least one-third of the Committee should be composed of Members more immediately connected with those persons as representing them in Parliament. As to the bias spoken of by the hon. Member, he did not see how it could exist on so broad a question. He would move that Lord Robert Grosvenor be substituted for Lord Mahon.
MR. O. GORE: Lord Robert Grosvenor is nominated already.
On the question that Viscount Mahon be one of the Members of the Committee, the House divided:—Ayes 25; Noes 6: Majority 19.

List of the AYES.

Baine, W.

O'Brien, A. S.

Barnard, E. G.

O'Brien, T.

Bentinck, Lord G.

O'Conor Don

Brotherton, J.

Parker, J.

Craig, W. G.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Stuart, J.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Taylor, E.

French, F.

Thesiger, Sir F.

Grimsditch, T.

Williams, W.

Hawes, B.

Wortley, hon. J. S.

Maher, N.

Young, J.

Marsland, H.

TELLERS.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.

Gore, O.

Morpeth, Visct.

Gore, W. O.

List of the NOES.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Thornely, T.

Evans, Sir De L.

Humphery, Ald.

TELLERS.

Morison, Gen.

Hume, J.

Strickland, Sir G.

Wood, Col. T.

Forty Members not being present, the House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS. 1a Factories. Threatening Letters, &c.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Sutton and other places, in favour of the Government Plan of Education.—From Dublin, against the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.—From Members of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, for the Abolition of Smithfield Market.—From Langfield and Stansfield, for Limiting the Hours of Labour of all Females and Minors to Ten Hours.—From Guardians of the Callan and Kilmallock Unions, against any Clause being inserted in the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill which would throw the Responsibility of Supporting the Poor on the Occupying Tenant.—From Guardians of the Stepney Union, for the Adoption of the English Poor Law in Ireland.—From Parochial Officers of several places in England and Wales, that Boards of Guardians may be Empowered to grant Superannuation Allowances to Poor Law Officers.

THE NAVY.
The EARL of HARDWICKEsaid that, seeing the First Lord of the Admiralty in his place, he would ask him whether it was his intention in the course of the ensuing summer to collect a squadron for the purposes of exercise and evolution?
The EARL of AUCKLANDsaid, he was deeply sensible of the advantage of our ships being occasionally brought together in large bodies in squadrons for the purposes of exercise and combined movements, not only to instruct the seamen, but to instruct the officers in tactics and naval evolutions; and he was glad to be able to inform the noble Earl that a squadron would be assembled for that purpose in the

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Channel in the course of the summer. One reason why it could not be assembled earlier was, that a great number of steamers were employed in the conveyance of food, and it would not be advisable to exercise a squadron without a large portion of steamers, or having fully as many as the men of war. He hoped, however, that by the end of July, the squadron would be ready for sea, even though the squadron in the Mediterranean should remain as it was, though he hoped it would not.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that the noble Earl had expressed an opinion in favour of a squadron of evolution, and he had also expressed the hope that we should have a squadron in the Channel and another in the Mediterranean under Sir William Parker; but then he said that whether we were to have a squadron in the Mediterranean must depend on the release of our ships from Lisbon and Athens, where they were at present employed for political objects. He had no doubt that the noble Earl regretted this destination of our ships, forced as it was upon him by the superior authority of the Foreign Office. He (the Earl of Ellenborough) regretted that the object of calling together a large squadron, on board of which our officers could learn the art of war, should be abandoned for such objects as those which our fleet was now prosecuting at Lisbon and Athens. Had any good been done by Sir William Parker at Lisbon? Had the appearance of our squadron there produced the least advantage? Had they not, on the contrary, every reason to suppose that the presence of that squadron in the harbour of Lisbon had postponed the settlement of Portuguese affairs, by inducing the Government of Portugal to entertain the opinion that they could still postpone that settlement with safety to themselves? It was said that we were justified in interfering for the protection of the person of a foreign Sovereign. He thought that was a principle as to which there existed very great question; and he should, with great hesitation, admit that principle into the law of nations; because it could only be applied in the case of weak States, and not of strong States, and only where the foreign Sovereign was in a maritime town; for to interfere to protect a foreign Sovereign by means of an army would be out of the question. If a foreign Sovereign placed himself at the head of a revolution, was it to be said that he was to be free from all perils? Were we not giving pro-
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tection, not only to the person of the Sovereign, but also to the persons of that Sovereign's Ministers? If we did so, we acted partially, for those who were engaged on one side, were secured against personal danger, whilst those engaged on the other side were exposed to every personal risk. He regretted that acts of cruelty had been committed by the Portuguese Government on officers taken on the field of battle. In fact, we had not succeeded, as far as he could ascertain, in any advice which we had hitherto offered to the Portuguese Government. The principle of such an interference was open to great objection. That interference employed one-third of our line of battle ships. As to the use of another third, they were sent to Athens. We had there three line-of-battle ships. That was what was called a demonstration; but there was a demonstration also on the other side, and France had there an equal if not a greater number of ships. Were those ships to be confined to a demonstration? Or were there any orders sent out for them to act? If so, were they sure that there were not orders sent on the other side? And they would not be in hands to which he would willingly trust so serious a question as that of peace or war. He wished he could be so sanguine as the noble Earl; he wished he could look to the early release of the two parts of our naval force, and their formation into one, under Sir W. Parker, for practice in the Mediterranean. He must say that this distribution of our naval force was open to a grave question, and to himself personally a subject of great anxiety. He wished that he could look to the early release of those two portions of our naval force. He most deeply regretted the present distribution of our ships. The smaller our force, the more necessary it was to concentrate it. He felt most deeply the present position of our Navy, because he knew that it did not give us that security which our naval force ought to be enabled to impart. He repeated, the smaller it was the more concentrated it ought to be, and that every means ought to be taken to make it as perfect and efficient as possible.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that if the noble Earl had made a Motion corresponding with the great and important considerations involved in his speech, he should have been ready to meet it; but that speech had been made incidentally with reference to some remarks on the distribution of our naval forces that had

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fallen from the noble Earl who was at the head of that service; and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) was sure that the noble Earl opposite would feel, on reflection, that the observations he had made involved the most important considerations, and the largest question of the foreign policy of this country, with the principles of our interference with the affairs of other countries, and various principles of the law of nations. He would not follow the noble Earl, at that time, into so large an inquiry, nor into the system with respect to interference which he had laid down, but would confine himself to considerations arising out of the question put by the noble Earl. He should say that there was the greatest advantage arising from the assembling for exercise of the naval force of this country, and even considerable advantage to be derived from that partial exercise of it which, from time to time, it might be the duty of the Board of Admiralty to require to take place; but he thought that if there were any advantage to be derived from that exercise, it arose from the power it gave to the Board of Admiralty to carry to any part of the world that naval force for application to the protection of British interests wherever they might be in danger. The protection of the lives and property of Englishmen ought to be the primary object of the application of the force of Great Britain; and the object of Her Majesty's Government, in the management of the naval force of this country, had been to see that in no part of the world in which broils and quarrels were taking place amongst different nations, which involved British interests, should those British interests be found without adequate protection; and they had done that in this case, not by keeping the squadron cruising in the Channel, but by stationing it in such a position as gave the means of affording adequate protection to British interests. But the noble Earl said these forces had been applied to other objects than this—objects which he was prepared to condemn. Now, when the time came for explaining to the House the objects which these forces had been called on to carry out, in any respect, beyond that object which all must admit Her Majesty's Government were bound to keep in view—he meant the protection of British interests—then would be the time for him to enter on that question. With reference to that object to which the noble Earl more particularly alluded, he would say that the
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interference of our force; had been free from partiality, and he believed it had been conducted on the soundest principles of justice and impartiality. Our efforts up to the present moment had not been completely successful; but he hoped they shortly would be so, and he should be prepared, when this subject was ripe for discussion, to show that our ships had been ordered to their positions, not on the principle of a partial interference, still less on the principle, which he condemned as strongly as the noble Earl, of interfering for the purpose of sanctioning acts of cruelty; but that what had taken place there had taken place with reference to the interests of this country, and for the pacification of a country to which we were bound by national interests as well as by special treaties; and he could assure the noble Earl that the effect of the presence of Sir W. Parker in the bay of Lisbon, with the force at his command, had been to inspire our merchants with a feeling of security for their lives and property, and the whole country with respect for the application of the British army to objects beneficial to that country as well as to the security of our own merchants. As to the noble Earl's observations how far treaties could be binding on us to maintain the inviolability of the persons of foreign Sovereigns, that was a question which it would obviously he most inconvenient and improper for him (the Marquess of Lansdowne) to enter upon; but he must say that no person was less disposed than he was to any unnecessary interference with other States; but he did consider that in the present state of Europe Her Majesty's Government were bound to watch over what was taking place, and to assert the rights and interests of this country. When the noble Earl made a special Motion, he should be ready to enter into the whole subject.
LORD BROUGHAMasked whether M. Deitz, the King of Portugal's preceptor, had left the Tagus or not?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhad no hesitation in giving his noble and learned Friend the information, that M. Deitz had left the Tagus; and, if he had any satisfaction in knowing it, he might say further, that M. Deitz was now in this country.

BANK OF ENGLAND
LORD WHARNCLIFFE, after some prefatory remarks which were totally inaudible, put the following question, of which

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he had given notice: "Whether there have been any applications to the Bank of England by the Government for advances from the former beyond the usual amount required upon deficiency bills for the current public service, during the latter half of the year 1846, and down to the present period; and if so, whether there would be any objection to producing the correspondence or communications connected therewith?"
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, in the first place he had to state that, far from complaining of the question having been put, he thought that at the present moment it was a natural and fit question to ask. With respect to the question itself, he could say distinctly that beyond the mere formal and constant correspondence on the subjects usually discussed between the Bank and the Government, and which formed part of the usual machinery of Government, there had been no correspondence whatever on the subject of the noble Lord's question; but it was true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had had, from time to time during the last quarter, personal communications with the Bank on this subject, but none of them taking the shape of written correspondence; and in the course of these communications the Bank had been uniformly apprised of the demands—not much exceeding the demands of common years—that the Government would have to make upon them. Of the excess of securities in the Bank, of which so much had been said, he might observe, that the excess had been much more an excess of private securities than an excess of Government securities. It appeared from the returns that on the 9th of January, the private securities in the Bank were 14,400,000 l., and they had risen on the 14th of April to 18,627,000 l.; and at the moment when the advances of the Bank to the Government had been the highest—on the 8th of April, namely—the amount of private securities was 18,136,000 l., being many millions increase beyond what it was at the commencement of the year. If there was anything to lament at this moment with regard to the monetary affairs of the country, it was the pressure to which the noble Lord had referred; but considering the variety of causes which had occurred calculated to give rise to that pressure—considering the extraordinary state of the country, the great demand for the importation of food—instead of being surprised that any such pressure should have come upon the Bank,
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his only surprise was, that it had not been felt much sooner. Had precautions been taken at an earlier period, the pressure would have been less severe; he trusted, however, that it would soon be overcome; and he could confidently state that it was the anxious desire of the Government and the Treasury not to add to the difficulties of the country by any interference with the management of the Bank, but to leave that body a sole control over its own affairs.
LORD BROUGHAMwas of opinion that, considering the very extraordinary circumstances that had occurred, it was not in the power either of the Bank or of the Government to have prevented the crisis that had happened, which might fairly be traced to the failure of the potato crop, to the vast importation of foreign corn, and to the continual drain on the money market for supplying capital to the carrying on of railways, which amounted in less than six weeks to a sum of 3,000,000 l. These were circumstances which must necessarily lead to a deranged state of the exchanges.

LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL,
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, on moving the Order of the Day for the House to go into Committee on this Bill, observed, that their Lordships having permitted the Bill to be read a second time without any explanation of its provisions, he felt that it was but respectful to their Lordships, although he did not anticipate any objection to the measure, to state briefly its general purpose and object. The Bill was founded, he need not tell their Lordships, upon the circumstances which were peculiar to the present state of Ireland; and after the various discussions which had taken place in Parliament upon the subject of the condition of the people and the agricultural industry of that country, he believed there were but few of their Lordships who had not arrived at the opinion and conviction that vast improvements were required to be made in the agricultural management of that country; and that, upon an improved system of cultivation, by an increased application of capital and skill, the future state of prosperity and even safety of Ireland must mainly depend. It was in proportion to the stimulus the Legislature might be able to apply to this improved system, and to these undertakings, by the investment of capital in the cultivation of the land, that they could anticipate effecting any remedy for the pre-

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sent state of things, or dorm: any collateral benefit from those other measures which their Lordships were now engaged in carrying forward; measures which it was admitted on all hands would require the cordial support of their Lordships, in order to their being rendered effectual to the promotion of the general interests of Ireland. After all the reflection which he had been able to give to this subject—putting aside every prejudice which he did not deny entertaining in favour of that part of the United Kingdom—he was deeply convinced that it was by the agency of the landed proprietors only that the stimulus could be applied for introducing an extended system of agricultural improvement in Ireland. If that improvement was not to be carried into effect by the proprietors of the land, he knew not by what means that improvement could be given to the condition of the population of the country, which was requisite for the purpose of providing for their subsistence. Their Lordships could hardly think that m the present state of agricultural destitution in Ireland any improvements could be introduced by the tenants of the laud; and as little did he suppose that their Lordships thought it would be competent to the Crown itself to undertake, even if authorized by Parliament, a system of improvement to be carried into effect by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, whatever confidence their Lordships might feel in the administration, or however much they might wish to see discharged the duties of applying machinery to drainage, and to the making of improvements of every kind for one great object, and under one authority. The obvious solution, therefore, of the difficulty in which their Lordships were placed was that of giving, under the circumstances of great disadvantage which they at the present time experienced, aid and assistance to the landed proprietors, by which they might have additional motives for exerting themselves in the improvement of their own estates. Their Lordships were well aware, for it had been repeatedly urged in the course of the discussions on this subject, that the proprietors of Ireland were not in a condition, with respect to the possession of capital, to command the means by which they could at once, and at one stroke, in one year, commence a system of improvement. If they were to attempt to do so, it would deprive them of their income, and in case of being in debt would deprive them of the means of paying the
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interest upon that debt; in short, it would impose upon them duties which none but capitalists could undertake to discharge even in this country. If such would be the state of things even in England generally, their Lordships well knew that it was the case very peculiarly with respect to Ireland. Their Lordships knew that a very large portion of the property in Ireland was very deeply mortgaged, so that it was impossible for persons, deriving nothing but a life income, subject to charges, from property which they only nominally possessed, to devote the sum of money necessary to introduce a change in the whole system of cultivation of the country; to substitute new modes for old; new machinery for that which had been hitherto in use, and so to act upon the industry of the labourers of the country as to effect a total revolution in their habits and social condition. But their Lordships must be convinced that nothing short of this would really improve Ireland, or would give satisfaction and security there, nothing' short of this would prevent Ireland for the future from being what it had unhappily been in the past, a weight and an incubus upon the resources of this country. It would be taking a very narrow view of the subject, if their Lordships were to consider that by passing this Rill they were giving assistance to the Irish proprietors alone. It was not their interest only that they won; considering, but the interest of the whole country; for the whole population would benefit by the application of the money proposed to be advanced, and the repayment of which was secured by the provisions of this Bill. It was in the largest sense for the interest of England itself that their Lordships were legislating, and it was with this view that he now proposed to their Lordships the measure which had been prepared to remedy the evil that so universally prevailed in Ireland. The noble Marquess proceeded to state the nature of the provisions of the Bill, the chief purpose of which was to carry into more complete effect the Bill of last Session, which authorized the advance of the sum of 1,000,000 l. By that Act the advances were made to certain descriptions of estates, whereas this Bill extended the benefit of the measure to all kinds of landed estates, care being taken to secure the principal and interest, the 1,000,000 l. being in creased to 1,500,000 l. It was proposed that for loans so advanced an interest of 6½ per cent should be charged on the pro-

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perty; and it was hoped that not only the interest but the principal would, within a few years, be repaid. As this measure was intended to be universal, and to apply generally throughout the country, it became desirable that it should be made applicable to the circumstances of a vast variety of individuals; the provisions of the Bill had been therefore so framed that they fitted themselves to the case of almost every description of property in Ireland, and it would be in the power of every proprietor to avail himself of them. The greatest anxiety was felt in Ireland for the passing of this Bill; as a proof of it, abundant applications had been already made for assistance under its provisions. In many parts of Ireland, upon the speed in which that assistance was afforded, would depend the utility of the measure. The noble Marquess read a letter from a clergyman, who stated that he was almost worked off his legs in the discharge of his official duties as chairman of a board of guardians, and that his only hope of effectual aid to the inhabitants of his parish was in the landlords obtaining assistance under this Bill. At present not 5l. a week was paid in wages amongst a population of 4,000. The object of the Government being that these loans should be spread over as wide a surface as possible, it not being expedient to confine the advances to any one spot, a clause was introduced which provided that no person should be allowed to borrow more than 20,000 l. The noble Marquess concluded by moving that the Order of the Day be now read.
The DUKE of WELLINGTON: My Lords, during this Session of Parliament I have contributed my support to various measures which have been proposed by Her Majesty's Government with a view to apply a remedy to the misfortune which has occurred within the last year in Ireland; but I must say, that, of all the measures which have been proposed by Her Majesty's Government, that one which the noble Marquess has just adverted to, and the provisions of which he has now stated to your Lordships, is the one which, I believe, in conjunction with the Bill the second reading of which was proposed by my noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) a few nights ago, best calculated to secure the object Her Majesty's Government are seeking to attain—a Bill which appears to me more calculated than any other measure permanently to lead to the improvement of Ireland, and to relieving it from
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the effects of that great misfortune by which it has recently been visited. My Lords, I am not at all desirous of throwing any impediment in the way of this Bill; and I am perfectly certain that there are many of Your Lordships much more capable than I am of stating the benefits which this measure is calculated to produce; but I am anxious to propose a clause in the Committee on the Bill, which I think would contribute to its good working, and remove a practice in the social system of Ireland which, in my opinion, has tended greatly to aggravate the misfortunes of that country, if it has not been the principal occasion of them. The practice I refer to is that of making land supply the place of the circulating capital of the country, and pledging the land for the purpose of paying the wages of the labourer. I say, my Lords, that this is one of the causes and one of the greatest aggravations of the existing evils of Ireland; and the consequence is, that the Government has been obliged to come forward to give relief by employing large numbers of the labourers of the country upon public works. Such a practice as this is most injurious; for those men who require the services of the labourers let them land; and, instead of paying them wages as labourers, they oblige the individuals who take the land to work out the rent. The consequence is, that the labourer, who is wholly dependent for his subsistence upon the produce of his land, finds that his labour is mortgaged for the rent, and at the same time, being without assistance, when his strength fails him he has no resource, and is compelled to resort to the Government works. And what becomes of his employer, the farmer or the small gentleman who employs him, under this system of making land the circulating medium of the country and the wages of labour? When difficulties occur, and his capital fails, and his labourers are incapable of work, he has no resource; he is not in the habit of laying by capital—he has none—and he can employ no labour. Thus distress, when it comes, affects everybody, and the Government is compelled to employ the labourers of the country, and to give them food. Under these circumstances, my Lords, it appears to me that you cannot apply an effectual remedy to the evils of Ireland, unless you enforce the necessity of paying the wages of the labourer in the current coin of the realm; and in the Committee on the Bill I shall

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propose a clause requiring that all bargains for the wages of labour shall be made in the current coin of the realm, and that the payment of wages shall be enforced in the same, and that the labourer shall have a claim for the payment of his wages in the current coin of the realm, notwithstanding any bargain with his employer to the contrary. I will lay this clause upon your Lordships' Table, and I will move it either in the Committee or on the bringing up of the report.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he might perhaps be permitted to observe, in reply to the noble Duke who had favoured them with his suggestions on this Bill, that he entirely agreed with him in the principle of his clause; but at the same time he thought it would be better to defer the consideration of the clause until the bringing up of the report. He had no opportunity of seeing the Amendment suggested until the last half hour; and he would not therefore refer farther to it for the present, except to observe that while he agreed in the principle involved in it, he could not feel very sanguine as to the practicability of enforcing it in practice.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, he entirely agreed with the noble Duke that the Bill before their Lordships, and the other Bill which had been presented by his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, were, as far as they went, most valuable measures for the improvement of Ireland. His noble Friends near him might, therefore, be assured that he intended to give no opposition to the Bill, and that his object would be rather to improve and extend the Bill than the contrary. He heard with great satisfaction the view taken by his noble Friend who moved the Committee on the Bill of the exigencies of the country, as there was no one more able to appreciate them than his noble Friend. But he would remind their Lordships that they should bear in view the fact, that they were called upon to contemplate in one year a great revolution in the state of Ireland. He agreed with his noble Friend that this Bill was a step in the right direction; but he could not consider it as one going to any decisive length. At a time when the Government proposed that the landed property of Ireland should be obliged, without assistance from any other quarter, to support the labour of the country, he could not think that the advances for the improvement of landed property in that country ought to be limited to 1,500,000 l. He
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considered that no effectual good would be done unless this country consented to go farther with those advances.
The EARL of WICKLOWdiffered from his noble Friend who just sat down, for he thought the measure was an act of great liberality on the part of the Government. He even believed that the Bill would be found more efficient by having the amount to be advanced under it limited, than if it were fixed at an enormous amount in the first instance, as in the latter case the desire to obtain a part of the loans at once was not likely to be so great as it would probably now be. His principal object in rising was to point out to Her Majesty's Ministers what he thought was an unintentional omission in the Bill. The omission to which he alluded was, that the drainage works commenced under Mr. Labouchere's letter were not included under the. Bill; while those commenced under Mr. Trevelyan's letter were included, though the former were commenced by the landlords, with the most benevolent motives, to meet the wishes of the Government and of the country in providing employment for the people; while the latter were attended with advantages which were not comprised under Mr. Labouchere's letter. He should add, that the Bill had his entire concurrence, and that he thought it a highly beneficial measure.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, he considered the works referred to by the noble Earl included in the Indemnity Bill, which was one of the measures now before their Lordships.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he thought the explanation of his noble Friend satisfactory, as he fully concurred with his noble Friend behind him (the Earl of Wick-low), that the works to which he had alluded ought to be included under the Bill. He agreed that the Bill was of great public importance; but he begged their Lordships to bear in mind the real extent of the benefit to be conferred under it. In the first place, the entire amount to be advanced under the Bill was to be lent on the highest class of security, that of mortgage on the landed property of the country; and, in the next place, he had to remind them that the expenditure of a million of this amount had already received the sanction of the Legislature, so that the additional advances authorized by this Bill did not exceed 500,000 l. He considered the clause proposed by the noble Duke as. of the utmost importance,

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with a view to the improvement of the condition of the labouring classes in Ireland. He also wished to suggest some Amendments, which he would submit for the consideration of their Lordships when the Bill got into Committee. They should bear in mind that the country was in a state of transition from a potato diet to a cereal diet; and this transition would necessarily require a much greater extent of mill power than was now to be found in Ireland. He thought, therefore, that they could not confer a greater benefit on the farmers than enabling them to procure the advantages of small grist mills. He admitted that Government aid for the erection of large mills might be fairly considered as an interference with commercial enterprise; but he was disposed to regard the erection of small mills in parts of the country where but little or no mill power was now to be found, as not open to the same objection. He would, therefore, take the liberty of proposing the introduction of a clause to the effect that in such parts and districts of Ireland as should be shown to the satisfaction of the Commissioners to be deficient in mill power, such mills as he described might be erected. He would also move that the erection of small stores, subject to the same limitations as in the case of mills, be included, and likewise the erection of farm buildings, as had before been suggested in the House of Commons. He had only, in addition, to call their Lordships' attention to the 16th Clause in the Bill. That clause limited the advances to land which the Commissioners would report as likely to pay six and a half per cent on the amount expended in improvements; but there were, he believed, parts of the country, especially in Connaught, where much land was to be found well suited for reclamation, but which was not likely to yield six and a half per cent in the first instance. He, therefore, objected to this limitation as injurious. He did not bring forward those Amendments in the shape in which they had been brought forward in the House of Commons. He submitted them in an amended form, and in the Committee he would take the liberty of asking their Lordships to agree to them.
The DUKE of RICHMONDagreed with the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle) as to the 16th Clause. He approved also of the noble Lord's Amendment to include farm buildings amongst the objects of the Bill; but he suggested that a proviso should be added to compel the occupier to insure
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such farm buildings against loss or accident by fire. The object of the Bill was not to give a greater rent to the landlord, but to induce the adoption of an improved condition of agriculture.
LORD BEAUMONTwould be sorry that the House should agree to any proposal by which, in the money transactions between the landlord and the Government, the whole of the benefit should go to the tenant. The tenant would thereby have every inducement to remain upon the land, which, in Ireland, was not desirable, while the landlord would continue, as at present, to have little or no interest in the condition of his estate. The Bill before the House, good as it was in principle, and just and generous as it was, would in many parts of Ireland be of no use unless a totally different method of tillage were adopted, and the system of small farms abandoned. A rotation of crops, cleaning the land, consuming the straw and turnips on the premises, were essential to good farming, and could only be adopted on proper-sized farms. He did not think their Lordships would derive half the advantage which might be derived from the Bill, unless they accompanied it with some measure that would put an end to the system of pertinacious adherence to the land, and that desire which the Irish people always evinced to hold some portion by way of farm. This could only be done by severe laws against subdivision and subletting, inserting stringent clauses in the lease, and giving effective means to enforce their execution. There ought to be not only some inducement given to the landlords to build farm houses; but there ought to be also some preventive measures adopted to hinder tenants from overloading the land with small tenements. In short, the landlord must have control over his property, and be able to eject a bad tenant and select a good one, all which he did not possess at present before any good could be derived from this Bill or any other measure for assisting in the cultivation of the soil.
LORD STANLEYsuggested that their Lordships should at once go into Committee on the Bill, and discuss the details in due course.
House in Committee.
LORD MONTEAGLE LORD MONTEAGLE moved some Amendments relating to the inclusion of the erection of farm buildings and corn mills, under the head of "improvements."
The EARL of CLAREcalled their Lord-

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ships' attention to the allegations of a petition that had been presented to the House of Commons on the 26th of January last, from a barony in the county Clare. The principal complaint of the petitioners was, that there was not a sufficiency of corn mills in their district, so that they had not means of preparing their corn for bread. He thought that part of the money to be advanced by Government ought to be laid out in the erection of corn mills; and, as to the erection of farm buildings, he thought it was absolutely essential.
LORD STANLEYbelieved, that the erection of farm buildings had been originally intended to form part of another measure than that before the House. That other measure (the Reclamation of Waste Lands Bill) had, however, been, as he considered very wisely and properly, dropped by Her Majesty's Government. It would have only raised great expectations which could not have been fulfilled; but he hoped that their Lordships would consent to invest Commissioners under the Crown with increased powers of making advances for the erection of farm buildings as well as other improvements, and also for the erection of corn mills. They should recollect that the potato, which was the standard food of the Irish people, having been destroyed, and it having been found necessary to introduce a new description of food, it had become absolutely necessary that corn mills should be supplied for the preparation of the grain.
The EARL of LUCANsupported the Amendments.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, there were whole districts in Ireland destitute of any milling convenience, although vast power of water was rushing uselessly in every direction, which might be made a source of immense wealth. He must own that he was sorry the Bill had come up from the other House without having had "corn mills" inserted in it; and he would have no objection to the adoption of that portion of the noble Lord's Amendments under certain limitations. He also entertained considerable doubts with regard to the farm buildings. He would not promise to approve altogether of the Amendment of his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) upon that subject; but he thought it might be entertained with certain limitations. He would agree, therefore, to the insertion of "corn mills;" and in bringing up the Report, he would see if it were possible to set such limitations to the terms of the Bill
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as should enable them to include farm buildings.
First Amendment agreed to.
On the next Amendment,
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that if the question were one of absolute rejection or adoption, he would divide the House upon it; but as his noble Friend had expressed his intention of taking the matter into consideration before the next stage of the Bill, he did not think it would be well to force a division at present.
Clauses agreed to. Bill passed through Committee,
House adjourned.