Sitting of 30 March 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Health of Towns; Exchequer Bills (18 l., 310 l., 700 l.); Seduction and Prostitution.
2° Holyhead Harbour.
3° and passed; Mutiny.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Benbow, from Dudley, respecting Remuneration to Tax Assessors and Collectors.—By Mr. Acland, from Dissenters of South Petherton, and Mr. Ward, from Dissenters of Sheffield, against the Government Scheme of Education.—By Viscount Morpeth, from several places, for Sanatory Regulations for Improving the Health of Towns.—By Lord R. Grosvenor and Mr. Spooner, from several places, for the Suppression of Promiscuous Intercourse.

SEDUCTION AND PROSTITUTION.
MR. SPOONER, in pursuance of the notice he had given, rose to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the more effectual suppression of trading in seduction and prostitution, and for the better protection of females. He assured the House that he deeply felt the difficulties with which the subject was surrounded, and his own inability to do justice, to it. He could have wished to have left it in abler hands—in the hands of those who could have brought to its aid the weight of influence and authority. He might perhaps be asked why, if these were his real opinions, he had ventured to bring the matter under the consideration of the House? He felt that he had for such a question a complete answer. There existed in the metropolis an association which counted amongst its members, its council, and its vice-presidents and presidents, some of the highest and noblest in the land—
MR. C. BERKELEY, interrupting the hon. Member, said: Mr. Speaker, I rise to order. The details which the hon. Member is about to enter into in his speech, upon this subject, must, of necessity, be so unfit for publication, that I must beg to call your attention to the fact that there are strangers in both the galleries.
MR. SPEAKERimmediately ordered strangers to withdraw, and the debate being carried on with closed doors we are

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unable to give any report of it. The result was that leave to bring in the Bill was given, and it was brought in and read a first time.

HEALTH OF TOWNS.
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid:* Sir, I feel that the matter which I have to bring before the House is important and copious enough—not to mention that some part of the evening has been appropriated to other business—to make me wish to avoid all unnecessary prelude or preface. The subject of public health has now for some time very generally occupied public attention, though most of our memories must extend to the time when it occupied comparatively very little. But, indeed, it is full time that it should engage the attention both of Governments and Parliaments, and of the great body of the people, who, after all, must be the real parties who can alone cause any effectual measures upon the subject to be brought before Parliament, and who can alone adequately carry into effect any measure so proposed. I will, in the first place, mention the principal stages of the various inquiries and commissions that have been instituted with relation to this subject. In May, 1838, a report was made to the Poor Law Commissioners by Dr. Arnott and Dr. Kay upon the prevalence of certain physical causes of disease, which might be removed by sanatory regulations; and in the same year another report was made by Dr. Southwood Smith, respecting the sanatory condition of the Bethnal-green and Whitechapel districts, as ascertained by personal inspection. In April, 1839, another report was made also by Dr. Southwood Smith, upon the prevalence of fever in several of the metropolitan unions. In August, 1839, the House of Lords carried an Address to the Queen for a Commission to make inquiries into the health of towns. In March, 1840, a Committee of the House of Commons on the health of towns was moved for, and which subsequently reported to the House. In 1841, Lord John Russell wrote a letter to the Poor Law Commissioners, desiring and calling upon them to institute inquiries into the causes of disease; and in January, 1842, Lord Normanby required these inquiries to be extended. In January, 1842, the Poor Law Commissioners transmitted to Sir James Graham the report of Mr. Chadwick upon the sanatory condition of
* From a Report published by Ridgway.
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the labouring population of Great Britain. In 1843, a Commission was issued by Sir R. Peel's Government to inquire in the same subject. In 1844, they made their first report; and in July, 1845, a Bill was brought in by the Earl of Lincoln to provide for the sewerage and drainage of towns, which was ordered by this House to be printed. From this brief summary it will be seen that all parties have contributed alike to the progress of this measure, and that if any measure shall be ultimately carried, the responsibility and credit will be monopolized by no one party, but will be shared by several successive Governments and by different persons. I shall now endeavour to place before the House the main facts and results which have been developed in the progress of those inquiries, whether official, parliamentary, or statistical. I shall endeavour to place before the House now only the leading facts and results, because, though I could present a great mass of special instances and local details, yet I feel I had better reserve them for a future period. In acquitting myself of this part of my pretension, I feel it quite unnecessary to disclaim to it any novelty of employing original matter. The main strength and force of the case which I have to bring before the House lies in the evils being obvious and obtrusive, widely felt, and loudly complained of. Several persons of very great accomplishment, and, what is more to the purpose, of most ardent benevolence, both in and out of this House, have taken great pains, in a way which does them infinite credit, to inform and excite the public mind on this subject; and now, mainly by the accident of my position, I feel myself at the last hour, as I trust it may prove to be, entering upon the fruit of their labours, and gleaning from their stores. Yet I dare not pass over altogether the evidence which they have collected, or proceed at once to the superstructure which we propose to raise, without further reference to the foundation upon which it must rest. The necessity of the case is too pressing, the difficulties to be encountered are too numerous, the weight and number of opposing interests are too formidable, to admit of my dispensing with any assistance I may derive from putting the exigencies of the case as briefly as I can, but still fairly, freely, and honestly before the House and the public. By a statement drawn up by Dr. Guy, Physician to King's College Hospital, from the reports of the Registrar General,

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it appeared that the relative mortality in the town and country districts was as follows:—

Country Districts.

Town Districts.

Population to the square mile

199

5,100

Annual deaths in 1,000,000

19,300

27,073

Annual excesses in Town Districts

7,773

Rate of mortality

1 in 52

1 in 37

He also supplies further particulars as to the rate of mortality generally:—

England

1 in 15

Ise of Wight

1 in 58

Isle of Anglesea

1 in 62

London

1 in 39

Leeds and Birmingham

1 in 37

Sheffield

1 in 33

Bristol

1 in 32

Manchester Union

1 in 30

Liverpool (Parish)

1 in 29

Thus, the inhabitants of London, compared with England at large, lose eight years of their lives; of Liverpool nineteen. The population of the large towns in England being 4,000,000, the annual loss is between 31,000 and 32,000. But all towns are not necessarily equally unhealthy, as appears by the following statement:—Liverpool, deaths per 1,000, 35; Manchester, 32; Bath, Coventry, Derby, Dudley, Shrewsbury, and Sunderland, 26; Carlisle and Norwich, 25; Halifax and Kidderminster, 21 in 1,000. Now, it may be thought that low wages, and the consequent comparatively small command over the necessaries of life, may occasion the greater rate of mortality in certain districts; but I find the following statement made by a Colleague of my own, Lord Ebrington, a most zealous labourer in the cause of the public health, in a lecture which he delivered at Plymouth:—
"The mortality of the south-western district, which includes Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset, and Wilts, is only 1 in 52, not 2 per cent; while that of the north-western, including Cheshire and Lancashire, is 1 in 37. Now, let it not be said that this is owing to extreme poverty and want of the necessaries of life; the condition of the labourers of the west, the badness of their dwellings, the lowness of their wages, the consequent scantiness of their food and clothing, have been the subject of public animadversion. With the exception of the Cornish miners, the condition of the labourers throughout the western counties is described as nearly the same; yet in Wiltshire, the county of lowest wages, the deaths are 1 in 49; in Lancashire, 1 in 36. The average age at death in 1841 was, in Wiltshire, 35 years, in Lancashire, 22; at Liverpool, 17; that of the labourers in Wiltshire, 35; operatives in Liverpool, 15. At Manchester, in 1836, the average consumption per head of the population was 105 lb. of butcher's
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meat—about 2lb. a week—exclusive of bacon, pork, fish, and poultry (what a different average would our county produce); the average age at death was 20. The proportion of paupers in the 15 principal agricultural counties, is 1 in 8; in the 12 principal manufacturing counties, 1 in 13; in Lancashire, 1 in 11; and of the deaths in 3,500,000 of town, and about an equal number of a country population, were, respectively, in 1838 and 1839 together—country, 1 in 54·91, of whom above 70, 20 per cent; town, 1 in 38·16, of whom above 70, 9 per cent; all England, 1 in 46·60, of whom above 70, 14 per cent."
The following was Dr. Guy's statement of diseases which occasion the excessive mortality in large towns:—
"Deaths in 1,000,000 from small pox, country, 500; town, 100: from measles, country, 350; town, 900: scarlet fever, country, 500; town, 1,000: typhus, country, 1,000; town, 1,250: epidemic and contagious disorders together, country, 3,400; town, 6,000: waste of life in towns under this head, 2,600 a year. Diseases of infants—teething, convulsions, water in the head, country, 1,300; town, 3,500: waste of infant life under this head, 2,200 a year. Scrofulous diseases and consumptions, country, 3,800; town, 4,600. Total excess of deaths, 5,500 in the 1,000,000. So that there is a waste of 22,000 lives in the 4,000,000 inhabiting large towns."
Dr. Guy also said—
"The total number of deaths in England and Wales during the year 1841 was 343,847, or somewhat less than 1,000 a day. Now, this is at the rate of 1 death in 46 inhabitants. But if instead of 1 death in 46 inhabitants, there had been 1 death in 50 inhabitants, or 2 per cent, no less than 25,407 lives would have been saved. Now, all men who have paid any attention to this subject agree in the opinion that, by proper sanatory measures, it is possible to insure such a state of health among the community at large, that the mortality shall not exceed that proportion. If the sanatory state of the entire country could be raised to the condition of the most healthy counties, so that instead of 1 death in 46 inhabitants, there should be only 1 death in 54, we should have an annual saving of no less than 49,349 lives, or about one-seventh of the whole number of deaths. At first sight it may appear extravagant to represent such an improvement of our sanatory condition as possible; but when it is recollected that, on the one hand, even our most agricultural counties have not yet attained to their best sanatory state, and that our large towns have been hitherto almost entirely neglected, and admit of immense improvement, the attainment for the whole country of a sanatory condition represented by 1 death in 54 inhabitants, is, at least, within the bounds of possibility."
Dr. Southwood Smith said—
"In some localities there not a single house in which fever had not prevailed, and in some cases not a single room in a single house in which there had not been fever. The districts in which fever prevails are as familiar to the physicians of the Fever Hospital as their own names. In every district in which fever returns frequently and prevails extensively, there is uniformly bad sewerage, a bad supply of water, a bad supply of scavengers,

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and a consequent accumulation of filth; and I have observed this to be so uniformly and generally the case, that I have been accustomed to express the fact in this way:—If you trace down the fever districts on a map, and then compare that map with the map of the commissioners of sewers, you will find that wherever the commissioners of sewers have not been, there fever is prevalent; and, on the contrary, wherever they have been, there fever is comparatively absent. Some idea may be formed of the evils which our negligence in the matter of sewerage and drainage inflicts, when I tell you that the animal deaths from typhus fever amounts to 16,000, and the attacks of this loathsome disease to between 150,000 and 200,000."
Further still, Dr. Lyon Playfair calculates that for unnecessary death there are 28 cases of unnecessary sickness; consequently, in our large towns, above 700,000 cases of unnecessary sickness. The same calculations in the metropolis would save 10,000 deaths, and 250,000 cases of unnecessary sickness. Then it may be asked whether all parts of our towns are equally subjected to these causes of sickness and death? So far from that being the case, I find from one of the reports of the Registrar General, that the metropolis is divided into three groups of ten districts each, under the title of the healthiest, the medium, and the most unhealthy districts. The result is as follows:—10 healthiest, with an allowance of 202 square yards to each person, have a mortality of 1 in 49; 10 medium, with an allowance of 102 square yards to each person, have a mortality of 1 in 41; 10 unhealthiest, with an allowance of 32 square yards to each person, have a mortality of 1 in 36. Liverpool—gentry, 35; working classes, 15. The Rev. Mr. Clay, of Preston, makes, by classes of streets: — Well-conditioned, mortality among children under 1 year, 15 in 100; moderately, 21 in 100; ill, 38 in 100; worst, 44 in 100, or three times as much as the first. I will only refer back to the very last half-year's report, where it appears, from tables prepared by Mr. Chadwick, that in St. George's, Hanover-square, the average age at which the gentry die is 45; labourers, 27: St. Giles's and St. George's Bloomsbury—gentry, 40; working classes, 17. Now, the documents of most authority on these subjects are the quarterly returns of the health and mortality made up from 115 districts of England by the Registrar General; the quarter ending June 30, 1846. From this report it appears that
—"43,582 deaths were registered in the spring quarter ending June 30—a number greater by 2,853 than were registered in the corresponding
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quarter of 1845; and 4,731 more than in the June quarter of 1844. If the mortality had not been higher in the towns than in the poor country districts where the air is pure, the deaths in the quarter would not have exceeded 33,000. Within the last three months 10,000 lives have been destroyed in a part only of England by causes which there is every reason to believe might be removed."
The report goes on to say that
—"the inadequate supplies of water by companies, the imperfect sewerage in towns, the open drains and ditches, and the general neglect of cleanliness, leave everywhere great quantities of organic matter to decay and putrefy in the midst of crowded populations. In such circumstances the mortality, like putrefaction, is always increased when the temperature is high, and epidemics of diarrhœa, dysentery, and cholera prevail. Many thousands of the people of England were carried off in the last quarter by these diseases, and others of the zymotic class. In the metropolis the deaths at the close of June from diarrhœa, dysentery, and common cholera, rose to 40 weekly. Nor is that to be wondered at. Notwithstanding the improvements effected when cholera was last epidemic, the fold untrapped sewers, and the ground areas of the best streets emit noisome smells, volatile poisons, which are as fatal as arsenic to a certain number of persons, London is surrounded too by stagnant, putrid ditches, as some cities are by walls. It would be well not to wait carelessly until cholera roaches the country, but to 'look before,' remove these nuisances, and purify the reeking atmosphere, which gives the disease breath, life, and being. These remarks apply with tenfold force to Liverpool, Sheffield, and the towns of the north, where the epidemics in the last quarter were more fatal than they had ever been before, and diseases were in proportion to the population at least one-third part more numerous than in London."
The Report of the Registrar General for the quarter ending September 30, 1846, states that
—"51,235 deaths were registered in the summer quarter ending September 30—a greater number by 15,227 than the deaths (36,008) in the corresponding quarter of last year. There were 23,523 children under five years of age, in Surrey; and the deaths of children of that age were 7,364. In the seven years, 13,362 children in Manchester alone fell a sacrifice to known causes, which it is believed may be removed to a great extent; and the victims in Liverpool were not less numerous. Other parts, and particularly the towns of England, are similarly afflicted. While the deaths in London were little more than 14 per cent above the return of 1845, the deaths rose from 25,166 to 38,826; or about 52 per cent after a correction for increase of population, in the towns and other districts of the kingdom included in the return. In some of the densely-peopled towns the mortality was doubled. The deaths in the corresponding summer quarter of the past and present year were in

Towns.

1845.

1846.

Maidstone

124

239

Brighton

219

372

Portsea Island

239

433

Winchester

89

141

Oxford

89

104

623

Towns.

1845.

1846.

Northampton

182

221

Bedford

182

254

Ipswich

119

240

Norwich

306

451

Plymouth

191

279

Clifton

323

436

Worcester

106

173

Dudley

457

744

Walsall

158

288

Wolverhampton

439

687

Wolstanston and Burslem

164

315

Coventry

188

300

Nottingham

285

469

Lincoln

124

246

No such mortality has been witnessed in Birmingham for many years. The deaths in 1845 were 694; in 1846 they amounted to 1,627. The high mortality of towns has been traced to crowded lodgings, dirty dwellings, personal uncleanliness, the concentration of unhealthy emanations from narrow streets, without fresh air, water, or sewers. The rapidity of decomposition, and the facility with which all kinds of animal matter become tainted, and run into putrefaction, enable us to understand how, in a summer like the past, in which the temperature was unusually high, the diseases referrible to impure atmosphere should be so prevalent and fatal."
Now, I am sorry to say, that the return of the very last quarter, which ended in December, would give a still more melancholy and appalling picture of increased mortality; and I only refrain from quoting it because it might be said that the diminished supply of food, the decrease in wages, and the consequent great spread of disease, might account for the increase of mortality as well as the unhealthy state of the towns. I have felt myself thus constrained by the necessity of my position to trouble the House thus far with these proofs and portraiture of the existing evils; and I now proceed to mention the main provisions of the measure which we propose to introduce with the hope of remedying what we can, and of mitigating what we cannot remove. In such a state of things as I think I have proved to exist, I will take it at once as admitted, and will not therefore be so idle as to argue that the State has right to interfere. I know this, there are many, for whom I have a high respect, though I have not the good fortune on this point to agree with them, who think that the State has no right to interfere in matters of education—in what concerns the domain of the mind; but in matters that are physical and material, matters which concern the health and life of large masses of our population who are pent up and crowded in towns and cities, in the case of evils which cannot be remedied otherwise than by some superintending, intervening, central
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authority—it would, I think, be a waste of words to attempt to prove that authority not only has a right, but that it is its duty to interfere. Then I have to ask, through what agency shall it exercise that degree of interference, of controlling and superintending power, which it may be thought right to assign to it? Now the Bill which popularly goes by the name of Lord Lincoln's Bill, which was introduced by him, and on which I am but too happy to found the greater part of the propositions which I have the honour to submit to the House, made use for that agency of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, occasionally calling in the assistance of the Privy Council. The Committee of the Metropolitan Health of Towns Association published a very full and able report upon the provisions of that Bill, and they occupied a considerable portion of it with a remonstrance against that use being made of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, on the ground of his being already more than sufficiently employed with the very onerous and multiform duties belonging to his own department. They represent—and it cannot be denied they represent with truth—that besides the general direction of the internal affairs of England, Scotland, and Ireland, he had also the ultimate superintendence of the police, of prison discipline, and of the poor law of the United Kingdom. Now, each of these items, I think, proves its own case; and we have felt that whoever the person might be who filled that high department, whether he be as apt for the discharge of business as the right hon. Gentleman who last held it, or as my right hon. Friend who holds it now, it would not be wise to add to the accumulation of the proper business of his office by a new and busy class of labour. We felt also that this objection would apply in its degree to any other department which has a large amount of business of its own. Some have suggested the Committee of the Privy Council. Now, the Committee of the Privy Council does not happen at this moment to stand in the very highest esteem with all classes of my fellow-countrymen; but we have thought that for duties which must be constantly in operation, such a body was hardly well adapted for the uniform performance of them; more especially if that body should not be composed of Members of the Government itself. We also felt that it might be said that such a body would be open to the objection of not

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entertaining that anxiety as to the credit which attaches to business being well done, which would belong to a body specially connected with it, and directly responsible for it, and felt that the duties we have in hand, and might hereafter connect with them, were important enough, and copious enough, in connexion with other matters, to justify the appointment of a special department for the purpose of securing their efficient administration; and we therefore propose that a board, somewhat similar to that which was established last Session for railways, be appointed; the board so appointed to consist of five members, three of whom are to be paid, and one a Member of the Government, who is to act as a member of the board without pay; and it is also proposed that the person filling the office which I now hold, namely, the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests, shall be ex-officio the chairman of this board. It is proposed to call the body so constituted "The Board of Health and Public Works," who on the petition, or without it, of the inhabitants of a town or district, wherever it may be deemed necessary to direct an inquiry to be made into the sanatory condition of any such town or district, shall be empowered to recommend to the Crown the appointment of inspectors, who shall proceed to such town or district, make all necessary inquiries and sufficient surveys, ascertain the levels, streams, and watercourses, and define the proper area in which any works may be carried on. The board is then—after receiving the report of the inspectors, if a proper case for interference shall be made out—to recommend that an Order in Council shall be issued, conferring the necessary powers on a local administration for the purpose of carrying all the sanatory arrangements which may be required into effect. What ought those powers to be, and who are to form the bodies that we propose to entrust with their administration? Our thoughts naturally revert first to the duties of the old commissions of sewers, the regulation of which originated in the drainage, of Romney Marsh, the first Act establishing those powers having been passed in the reign of Henry VIII., and the matter having been afterwards made the subject of other Acts of the Legislature. But as these Acts on the subject of sewers did not sufficiently provide for housedraining in connexion with main sewers, and a proper supply of water, a matter of much importance; and as almost the cardinal point
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upon which almost all the inquiries, reports, and recommendations have turned, is that the various functions of sewerage, drainage, the paving and cleansing of streets, should be put under the same control; we have thought it the most expedient, if not the absolutely necessary, course, to place these powers of sewerage, drainage, paving, cleansing and supplying water under the same jurisdiction and control. We do not intend to introduce all the details as do not intend to introduce all the details as to drainage, sewerage, paving, cleansing, and the supply of water bodily into the Bill, as many of them are already included in the Bill (in furtherance of the recommendation of a Committee of the House of Commons in the last Session of Parliament) brought in during this Session; but we purpose to combine all these different powers in a local administrative body. What is that body to be? The Earl of Lincoln's Bill provided a new electoral body, and contained a vast number of clauses regulating the boundaries of districts, and dividing them into wards, regulating the manner of voting, and, in fact, establishing a completely new electoral system. We thought, in preparing this Bill, that we had already enough of elections, and that with elections of town-councillors and poor-law guardians, it was hardly desirable to graft an entirely new electoral system upon these, for the creation of a body analogous especially to the town-councillors in many respects—a body which would be composed of much the same sort of men as those who would be elected as town-councillors, elected by much the same sort of men, who would have their attention directed to similar purposes, and on account of all these items of similarity, only the more likely to be jealous, counteracting, mutually-repellant bodies. Others advised that there should be a direct nomination from the Crown of those who were to constitute the local bodies; but we felt that such a mode of nomination would only cause the jealousies to be more direct and embittered between the popularly elected bodies and those directly nominated by the Crown. Besides all this, there was reason to apprehend that very few towns or districts would be able to furnish two sets of persons alike competent and willing for the discharge on one side of municipal, on the other of sanatory duties. Those who look at the way in which things are carried on in any place, will acknowledge in how few of those who possess the power, are centered adequate ac-

627
tivity, ability, and practical benevolence. I lay it down as a basis for the success of the system proposed, that the various powers and functions to be brought to bear with a view of carrying out this measure, ought to be consolidated; and they could not, it was supposed, be more effectually and advantageously consolidated than in a body expressly chosen by their fellow-citizens at large, for the general good government of the towns in which they resided. It is true that when the Corporation Act first passed, you did not transfer to the town-councils the various powers and functions exercised by trustees and commissioners under the local Acts of Parliament. It was then apprehended that those newly-established bodies would be engrossed in party conflicts and discussions, and that the novel power which had been given might be perverted to political purposes; and I admit that the first elections under the Corporation Act may have perhaps unduly partaken of one particular cast; but it was scarcely to be wondered at that such political excitement should have attended the first free movement of new bodies who felt themselves in the possession of new powers, and who had for a long time before been suffering under a sense of exclusion. The reaction which attends all human affairs has, perhaps, given subsequent elections an opposite bias; but at all events the intensity of political feeling connected with municipal elections has greatly subsided. I will not say that it is entirely effaced, nor that the selection of town-councils for the purpose of carrying out these sanatory views is wholly free from the objection; but I think that the more of really useful and important duties you can attach to municipal functions, the further you will go in solving party denunciations, and to tempt really useful and valuable men into the service of their fellow-citizens. We therefore recommend that in all towns and cities where bodies are already in existence for municipal purposes, those bodies should be selected for carrying out the sanatory objects of this measure. The only difficulty we anticipate in this mode of carrying out the measure, is where hits of suburbs or portions of districts in the neighbourhood of the towns or cities, which are not included in the municipal wards, shall be so circumstanced, as to make it necessary to include them within the natural area for the drainage of the district. Where such shall be the case, we propose to give a power to add such
628
portions to the municipal districts or wards, or even to create new wards if the number of the inhabitants to be included shall make it necessary. This we have thought better than creating a new electoral body; and in order to show the feeling which is entertained by the Manchester Health of Towns Association, it will be only necessary for me to read to the House an extract from the report of that body, with reference to the subject of Lord Lincoln's Bill:—
"Their objection to this creation of a new body to whom these powers are to be transferred are twofold: first, they anticipate many evils as likely to arise from an arrangement involving new elections, the appointment of new sets of officers, and the existence of perhaps conflicting authority in the same locality; and next, they fear that these clauses will give rise to an opposition to the Bill generally, by which the advantages to the community of its purely sanatory provisions will be endangered; and even if that opposition should be ineffective, they think it probable that obstacles and impediments to the introduction of sanatory reforms will arise, that would not have to be encountered were the wishes and interests of those connected with the existing municipal government more closely attended to. The Committee see no adequate ground for running these risks, and encountering these obstacles; it appears to them that where town-councils exist, the powers proposed to be entrusted to the new commissioners might be safely entrusted, under similar cheeks and securities given by Government superintendence to town-councils; that the powers of surveyors of highways and of turnpike trusts might be equally well transferred; that the surrounding district constituting the area of natural drainage might, if sanctioned by Her Majesty in Council, be added to the existing municipal boroughs; and that, in short, the whole local machinery of the Bill would be as easily provided, without interfering with the existing institutions, and without encountering the opposition which the Bill in its present form will inevitably meet with."
Now, even beyond the suburbs to which I have alluded, there may be outlying portions of country which it may become necessary to secure, in order to obtain a sufficient outfall for the drainage of a district, I do not propose the extension of all the powers of the Bill to those districts; but whenever it becomes necessary to ensure an outfall for the drainage, we propose to give the powers conferred by a commission of sewers for that purpose. In towns where the Corporation Act is in force, we propose, as I have already stated, to use the town-councils for the purpose of carrying out this measure; but there are several large towns which have not any corporate bodies under that Act, and which may require improved drainage and sewerage, such as Brighton, Cheltenham, and

629
others similarly situated. It was at first suggested to adopt the principle on which the commissioners of sewers were appointed, and to give to the Crown the direct nomination of the individuals to carry out the sanatory provisions in such towns, leaving a power to the towns to apply, if they thought proper, for a charter of incorporation. I thought it advisable that such towns should not be deprived of all popular control, if possible, with respect to the appointment of the commissioners, before they obtained a charter of incorporation; and I therefore propose that in such towns a certain number of the commissioners shall be selected by the rate-papers, the Board of Health and Public Works having the power of recommending to the Crown the appointment of a number of commissioners in each town, not exceeding one-third of the number elected by the ratepayers. This Bill, it will be seen, does not include in any of its provisions Ireland or Scotland, not that I do not fully coincide with the report of the Metropolitan Health of Towns Association, that there are in these portions of our country evils still more crying — remedies still more wanted even than in our own; but because I know from experience that it is to the last degree perplexing to attempt to include in the same parchment, measures relating to the three countries at once, except on very plain means. I hope, however, that my right hon. Friends connected with Ireland and Scotland, within whose province the preparation of measures on the subject would fall, will give their best attention to the working of the Bill, with a view to adopting it to the exigencies of those countries in the way they shall deem most expedient and efficacious. The report of the Health of Towns Association, extracts from which I have already read to the House, censured the omission of the metropolis, "that London, in which we are now assembled, from Lord Lincoln's Bill;" and as we did not see why the provisions which are extended to other cities and towns should not be also applied to London, we propose to apply the Bill to this metropolis. There are in London several commissions of sewers, some of which exercise their powers, which are very large, in somewhat an irresponsible manner; some of them are complained of for insufficient and extravagant management of their funds, whilst others are spoken of in terms of commendation. It is not my intention to enter upon any topic of incrimination; and I mention the
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subject in order to state that by an Order in Council, to be issued under this Act, all the commissioners of sewers may be superseded; when the ratepayers would be allowed to elect commissioners for sanatory purposes, and the Crown would have power to add a number not exceeding one-third of the number of commissioners so elected. A larger commission may be thought necessary for London, and the Crown would also have a larger field for the choice of men marked out by their experience, their knowledge, their disinterestedness, and their practical philanthropy, to discharge efficiently the duties which would devolve upon them. I have now stated what administration and extent we propose for the exercise of these new functions, in relation to the public health. They will comprise sewerage, drainage, cleansing, and paving. It will be found essential to the successful working of this scheme, or of any scheme for the same purpose, which may be brought forward, that as soon as the new Act is brought into operation, and the new Commissioners enter on their functions, there should be no conflicting jurisdiction, and we therefore propose that the Crown shall have power by an Order in Council to supersede the local bodies of trustees and commissioners of sewers, of paving, and of cleansing, which at present are entrusted with those powers in various districts. There is no point which has been more strongly and clearly put forward in all the inquiries, and recommendations and reports which have followed inquiries, than the importance of getting rid of conflicting jurisdictions. It is repeatedly insisted upon that they cause nothing but confusion, and must clog and nullify the whole proceedings. I may quote on this head the recommendations from the Second Report:—
"For these reasons we recommend that the management of the drainage of the entire area as defined for each district, be placed under the jurisdiction of one body.
"That the whole of the paving, and the construction of the surface of all streets, courts, and alleys be placed under the management of the same authority as the drainage, and that the limits of jurisdiction for both purposes, wherever practicable, be co-extensive.
"That the provisions in local Acts, vesting the right to all dust, ashes, and street-refuse in the local administrative body be made general; and that the cleansing of all privies and cess-pools, at proper times, and on due notice, be exclusively entrusted to it.
"With the view of ensuring a sufficient supply and proper distribution of water to all classes, we recommend that it be rendered imperative on the

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local administrative body charged with the management of the sewerage and drainage, to procure a supply of water in sufficient quantities, not only for the domestic wants of the inhabitants, but also for cleansing the streets, and scouring the sewers and drains.
"For this purpose we recommend, that the said body have power to contract with companies, and other parties, and make other necessary arrangements."
I may add this from the report of the Committee on Lord Lincoln's Bill:—
"The next important provisions of this Bill appear to your Committee to be the following: That the supply of water, the sewerage, the drainage, the cleansing and the paving of towns, should all be under one and the same authority. That the whole of a town, including the suburbs, and the whole of the drainage area, should also be under one and the same authority."
Also this extract of a private letter I received from York:—
"Last year the question with respect to the excessive height and imperfect drainage of the Foss Navigation, the remedy of which is the principal sanatory desideratum in York, was suffered to be seriously taken up by the local authorities; but between the two stools of the municipality and the city commissioners it fell to the ground."
There are provisions in the Bill for directing the mode of liquidating debts already incurred, and of dealing with contracts already made, and for giving such remuneration as may be deemed right for the existing holders of offices. I am well aware that this provision will destroy at one swoop the local Acts, and the host of local trustees, under which and whom so many of our towns and cities are now governed. But I think we had but one course before us. We had to settle in our minds what were the best local bodies to which we could entrust the powers under this Bill, and having settled that in what we hold to be the best manner, not to heed who or what was in our way, but steadily to confront all opposition and remonstrance, and to insist upon unity of action. We might, it is true, hear of municipal bodies who have performed such duties very ill, and local trusts who have performed them very well—we may hear of commissioners of sewers who have given dissatisfaction, and of commissioners of paving who have given satisfaction; but I hope that having appointed the town-councillors as the responsible bodies, the very responsibility with which they are to be invested will elicit proper attention and energy for the work to be done. Over and above all this, however, we shall perhaps derive most trustworthy security from some of the accompanying provisions of the Bill, which I may
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quote from the commendations bestowed upon them in the same report to which I have already been so much indebted:—
"The interests of the community should be protected by the supervision of a competent, impartial, and responsible public officer named an inspector. That before new works are undertaken, full and comprehensive surveys should be made by competent engineers. The plans of complete works should be prepared by responsible public officers, locally examined by them with the estimates. That expeditory reports should be drawn up for local publication, in order that the advantages of new works may be thoroughly canvassed by all parties interested in them. That the whole of the works should be maintained as well as executed by contract. That the performance of the contract should be supervised by a competent, paid and responsible local officer; and that the true causes of disease and death should be ascertained, and the spread of diseases, more especially epidemic diseases, should be checked, by the appointment in districts of a skilled and responsible medical officer, called an officer of health."
An inspector will be appointed, as I have already intimated, to make the preliminary inquiries, and when that has been done, it will be his duty to visit towns and districts, to see what is going on, to examine or to preface plans and surveys, and to make reports to the central board. Besides this person, who will be an engineer, I suppose, it is proposed to appoint a medical inspector also. At first sight, it seemed to us that it would be desirable to have a medical inspector, like those who have been appointed by the Sanatory Act for Liverpool and other places; but, upon consideration, we thought it better that the medical inspector should not be a person specially connected with the towns in which his duties are to be performed. In addition to tills, the town-councils will appoint a local surveyor, who will be approved of by the central board, qualified as a civil engineer, and who will have to superintend drainage and other contract works authorized by the Act. The Bill will also contain a power to appoint an inspector of nuisances, who will see to the removal of substances that may be prejudicial to the public health. Provisions will also be incorporated in the Bill for preventing the nuisance of smoke. The Bill will also incorporate provisions for the proper ventilation of buildings; and the commissioners will be empowered to light the towns, and to enter into contracts with gas companies, if they think proper, for that purpose. I have reserved myself something to say about water. I think it unnecessary to say, that an adequate supply of water is indispensable for any real system of drainage. With-

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out water to carry away the refuse lying in the drains, their very existence aggravates the evil they are intended to remove. The use of tubular sewers and an adequate supply of water to carry off their contents, is indispensable. Now, I believe it will be acknowledged that in many districts, even in this metropolis, the supply of water now looked upon as essential to a good system of drainage, is too scanty and too expensive. I find it stated by Mr. Toynbee, another most efficient labourer for public health, that
—"the water is generally laid on in the yard, and a supply given three times a week, and at each time the water comes on, the film of dust and blacks that has been deposited on the surface is mixed up with the previous accumulations. The same water is used for making bread, by a baker, who supplies a great number of the poor."
Dr Aldis said, that
—"the water retained in the rooms of the poor for domestic purposes soon becomes covered with black scum, and there is generally a filthy accumulation on the service of the water-butts. The fatigue of fetching a proper supply, which ought to be forty-five gallons a day for a cottage, is most wearing."
Mr. Hawkesley stated, that
—"it is perfectly well known to those acquainted with the feelings and habits of labourers, that they regard it as an intolerable nuisance on their return home, tired with the day's labour, to have to fetch water from a distance out of doors, in cold or in wet, in frost or in snow."
It seems that we are not much advanced from the days of Andromache,
"To bring
The weight of waters from Hyperia's spring."
With a view, therefore, to the due supply of water to every house, the commissioners are empowered to make contracts with water companies, and, when they shall deem it necessary, to purchase their works upon securing to them a full payment of their past demands. Provision is also made, that in case of any permanent works by which an unusual amount of expense might be incurred, there shall be a power given to borrow money, and to levy principal and interest by moderate yearly instalments, not from the owner but from the occupier, who during the time of his tenure is principally benefited; and in this manner we hope we shall remove what we consider to be the chief obstacle to improvements in towns, which is the opposition of owners to what they consider the serious expense attending them. It is this question of rates which has hitherto been the direct, and for some time to come must be, I fear, the indirect, obstacle to the in-
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habitants taking up sanatory measures with vigour and good heart themselves. There is something in the very sound of "rates," which weighs fearfully in the balance against health, industry, content, and all the virtues. Some additional outlay must be submitted to at the first start, if we wish to do anything effectual for public health; it is a necessary tribute which property must pay, perhaps in the first instance, mainly for the actual life and safety of the poor, and of those who live by the sweat of their brow; but, ultimately, I am persuaded, not at all the less for their own comfort and enjoyment. But I am further in hopes that it has been established on tolerable good grounds, that the improvement of the public health, besides its other inestimable advantages, is by no means to be slighted on the ground of economy itself. I do not wish to build too accurately on any series of calculations, but I cannot refrain from quoting the main heads of a few which, at all events, have been compiled by accurate and trustworthy persons. Dr. Lyon Playfair states
—"the loss from unnecessary death and sickness for England and Wales at 11,000,030 l., and the United Kingdom at 23,000,000 l."
These are the items of expense which Dr. Playfair reckoned are incurred under the present system, or rather want of system—direct attendance on the sick; loss of what they would have earned; premature death of productive contributors to the national wealth; and expense of premature funerals. Dr. Playfair estimates the loss for Manchester at nearly 1,000,000 l.; Mr. Hawkesley calculates the loss for Nottingham at 300,000 l.; Mr. Clay estimates the loss for Preston at 990,000 l.; Mr. Coulthart takes the loss for Ashton-under-Lyne at 235,000 l.; and Dr. Playfair considers the loss of this metropolis to be above 2,500,000 l.; and estimates the total loss to England and Wales at little short of 11,000,000 l. Dr. Guy, referring to the health of towns, says—
"I shall say nothing of the liquid manure, which, as I have been given to understand, is suffered to drain away into the ditches, thence into the rivers, and from them into the sea, from fully one-half of all the farmsteads of England; I will speak merely of the unappropriated refuse of large towns. In Flanders, where manure is carefully collected, instead of being, as here, suffered to run to waste, the excreta of an adult is valued at 1l. 19 s. Considering the enormous additions made to this manure in our towns, it will not be thought unreasonable to estimate the value of that part of the refuse which now runs to waste at two pounds per head of the population; and supposing that in

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England or in Wales, the towns which are guilty of this extravagance, contain in all only 5,000,000 inhabitants, we shall have an unusual waste of at least ten millions of money."
Mr. Smith, of Deanston, also expresses his opinion that
—"taking a general view of the subject, we may assume a clear revenue of the sewer water of all towns of 1l. for each inhabitant."
Dr. Arnott says, that
—"the value of town manure might be estimated by the fact that a portion of the drainage of Edinburgh has increased the value of these lands by more than 5,000 l. a year, and that, if the whole drainage of London could be saved, at a sufficient distance from the town, the value would exceed 500,000 l. a year."
Dr. Arnott observes, that Milan has benefited to a great extent by the adoption of such a measure as he suggested; and he then goes on to say that
—"it has been calculated that, whereas the cesspools cannot be emptied by nightmen for less than 19 s. a year, and whereas water carriers get ½d. for a pailful of water at the door, an addition of 2d. to the rent per week will suffice for the expense of water closets, and of an unlimited supply of water for every house; and that the entire sanatory purposes contemplated under all the recommendations of the Health of Towns Committee, may be procured for 3½d. a week per house."
These calculations may be looked upon as sanguine; but those persons who are best acquainted with the subject know that much is to be done with regard to economy, by adopting efficient sanatory regulations. Mr. Holland, of Manchester, stated that in twenty streets in Chorlton-on-Medlock, the mortality fell from 110 to 89 per annum, after, and no doubt principally in consequence of, the streets being properly paved and drained. Mr. Gardiner and Mr. Noble confirmed the result by showing that in certain streets in St. George's district, Manchester, the deaths in 1838, 1839, amounted to 495; but that in 1841, 1842, after the streets were paved and sewered, the deaths were only 432, being a diminution of 63, or about one-eighth. In a district in Ancoats, a diminution of 40 deaths out of 270, or about one-seventh, followed a similar improvement. But a still more striking illustration of the same fact may be found nearer home. It is contained in Mr. Liddell's evidence before the Health Commission:—
"Windmill-court, in Rosemary-lane, was one of the most unhealthy in my district. It was un-paved and filthy, and with stagnant water before the houses. I used to visit it sometimes two or three times a day for fever cases. About twelve months ago it was flagged; it was well supplied with water from a large east-iron tank, which enables the inhabitants to have a constant supply in-
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stead of an intermittent one, on three days a week. The court is regularly washed down twice a week, and the drains are so laid that all the water may pass through the privy and may carry off the soil, which was formerly a most foul nuisance, and a constant expense to the landlord. In the seven months ending March 1843, I attended forty-one new cases of sickness in that court; in the last four or five months I have had but two cases. The rent is better paid, and the landlord is considered to have made a good thing of the improvements, which were executed at his own expense."
I dare not trouble the House with any further extracts. I feel that in a matter so large and so complicated, many imperfections may be discovered, and that many oversights have occurred in the Bill which we propose to bring in. I can only say that it has been framed with an honest intention, and with a single view to the public good, and most unfeignedly thankful shall I be if the measure, after undergoing consideration by Parliament, and receiving ultimately the sanction of the Throne, shall in its results effect in some degree what we aim at—to diminish in some degree those noxious influences which now painfully afflict so large a proportion of our towns and cities—to hunt down to their source, if we can, the prevailing causes of disease—to let in more of pure air and more of pure water—to wage war wherever we can against filth and stench, and their attendant consequences, bodily weakness and depression, fever, and the death-dealing pestilence, and thus to lengthen the lives and add to the happiness of all classes of our countrymen. The noble Lord concluded by moving for leave to bring in the Bill.
MR. MACKINNON, in seconding the Motion, observed, that he considered both the noble Lord by whom this Bill had been introduced, and the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government, were entitled to very great praise for the exertions they had made to bring the measure before the House. His noble Friend the Member for Falkirk (Lord Lincoln), it would be remembered, had in a former Session brought in a Bill on this subject; but that measure was by no means so comprehensive as the Bill which had just been proposed by the noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests. He might observe that the noble Lord was scarcely aware of the difficulties he was likely to encounter in carrying out this measure, from the opposition of corporate bodies and other parties, especially in this metropolis; but he sincerely wished the noble Lord success in his endeavours.

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He believed that this Bill would prove as beneficial to England, as he considered the measure introduced by the hon. Secretary for Ireland, with reference to the poor laws, would be to that country. He would venture to call the attention of the noble Lord to the fact, that before the Committee which sat on this subject, and of which he was chairman, it was stated that there were five particular circumstances which were conducive to the health of towns—pure air; good drainage; the total absence of all vegetable or animal putrid matter; distance from the vicinity of stagnant water or morasses; and an abundant supply of pure water. In order to show the great advantages arising from attention to cleanliness and ventilation, he might mention that when Anson circumnavigated the globe seventy years ago, he lost, in his ship, the Centurion—owing to the want of proper food, ventilation, and accommodation—270 men out of a crew of 560 men; but it was computed that, if a ship of the same size and of the same complement were now to undertake the same voyage, she would not lose more than five per cent of her crew from sickness. He regretted that no legislation had been adopted with reference to this important subject at an earlier period; and why, he would ask, had the question been allowed to rest? Because it did not affect either the upper or the middle classes of society; for the results of those clauses which were prejudicial to public health were chiefly experienced by the poor. He was satisfied that the whole population of the country would feel much indebted to the noble Lord for the measure he had introduced. He must remind the noble Lord, however, that he had not included in this Bill all the nuisances by which the health of towns was affected. He wished to know whether the noble Lord meant to include within the proposed Bill any prohibition against interments in large towns and populous places; or whether a specific Bill would be brought in for that purpose?
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid, that the Bill would not contain any provisions for the prohibition of interments in large towns, as the Bill was considered by the Government large enough as it stood. The subject of intramural interments was, however, under consideration, and he hoped that a Bill in respect to it would be brought in.
COLONEL T. WOODsaid, there were a great many local Acts of Parliament which
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would be affected by the present Bill; and he thought that it was most unconstitutional to commit to the Privy Council the power of repealing all those enactments. He conceived that the more constitutional course would be for Commissioners under the Privy Council to mark out the districts, and then for the noble Lord to come to Parliament with a Bill for repealing the different Acts which related to the districts so arranged. It was also essential that the representatives of those districts should have the power of at least objecting to any line of demarcation which might be made by the Privy Council.
The EARL of LINCOLNsaid, that although his previous acquaintance with this subject might enable him to discuss the measure of the noble Lord to a considerable extent at the present moment, yet he felt that he should be acting more wisely if he refrained from entering at any length into the question until the Bill was before the House. The hon. Member for Leamington (Mr. Mackinnon) thanked the noble Lord for introducing the Bill, and in those thanks he entirely coincided; but he went on to state, that the measure was of a far more comprehensive nature than that which he (the Earl of Lincoln) brought in, though he must say, that, so far as the information received from the noble Lord that evening went, his hon. Friend's congratulation must be confined to the comprehensive nature of the machinery of the measure, because the noble Lord had himself frankly and fairly admitted, that most of the provisions of his Bill were taken from that which he had the honour of introducing to the House. To the extent that the noble Lord went, he believed that all the provisions, with the exception of those relating to the ventilation of large buildings and the prohibition of the smoke nuisance—two subjects which he apprehended would be found rather more difficult than was contemplated—were taken from his Bill; and to those portions of the measure he would not refer or make any comments on the speech of the noble Lord. On this occasion, therefore, he would address himself simply to three points in which the noble Lord's Bill differed from that which he himself introduced. The noble Lord, before entering upon the details of his Bill, stated, that he felt it to be absolutely necessary that there should be, what he called, an intervening, superintending, central authority. Now, to a certain extent, he highly

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approved of this provision of the Bill; and he begged to assure the noble Lord and the Government that he by no means participated in that very general and sweeping condemnation of what had been miscalled "centralisation," a word which had become very obnoxious to many parties in the country. But, at the same time, he did think that the noble Lord, in the proposal he had made to-night, was running the risk of extending that principle of centralisation too far; and he was afraid that the result—the ultimate, if not immediate result—of the establishment of such a body as he proposed to constitute, would be a far too minute interference with local affairs, and far too great an intermeddling with matters which ought to be left to the jurisdiction of parties who were resident on the spot, and whose interests were affected by the measure under consideration. Now, by his (the Earl of Lincoln's) Bill, it was proposed that this central authority should be conferred upon the Secretary of State for the Home Department; but that authority was to extend no further than this—that the Act should be brought into operation in each locality upon a representation made to the Home Secretary—that, beyond this, he should have the power, in the first instance, of sending down an inspector, who was perfectly free from local bias, to investigate the case and report thereon; and a further power was given the Secretary of State to see that the intentions of the Legislature were carried into effect. In this latter respect the power of the Secretary of State under the former Bill was nearly analogous to that which he possessed in the case of county prisons. To that extent he thought it was desirable to go, but no further. But the noble Lord proposed entirely to alter the body in whom this central authority was to be vested; and he stated, as a reason, the vast amount of work which was already borne by the Secretary of State. He was perfectly satisfied, however, that any duties which the Secretary of State might have to perform under the former Bill, would not be so onerous as those from which he would be relieved by the proposed amendment of the new poor law. The noble Lord intended constituting a new Board of Health, the president of which was to be the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests; but if any serious amount of business devolved on the Commission, such as could justify its appointment at all, he thought it would be almost impossible for the Chief Commissioner to perform his
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duties with efficiency. There were also to be three paid Commissioners; and he confessed that he did look with great jealousy upon their appointment, bearing in mind what had been the tendency of their legislation within the last six months. He would simply state on this occasion, that he had very great objection, upon principle, to the construction of new boards, though he was quite aware that in some instances boards might be desirable, and perhaps even indispensable; and he would take the liberty of suggesting, inasmuch as there was a single sentence in the noble Lord's speech which appeared to be rather ominous, that before they came to the second reading of the Bill, the noble Lord should be prepared to explain to the House any future plans of the Government which might be involved in this measure. He thought the noble Lord had let them, to a certain degree, behind the curtain, by giving to the board the title of "Commission of Health and Public Works." Now, if there were any intention of devolving the superintendence of public works on this board, the Government were bound, before the second reading of the Bill was sanctioned by the House, to state what was the nature of the proposal they had in view. If a machinery were now constructed which was more complicated and extensive than was absolutely necessary for the purposes for which they were legislating, the House had a clear right, in the first instance, to know what other functions were to devolve upon the board. The next great alteration which the noble Lord proposed in the Bill he introduced two years ago, had reference to the construction of the local bodies. He was quite ready to admit that he had always felt there were objections, and valid objections, to the bodies which he himself proposed; but it was a question of difficulties, and he was obliged to adopt that which he believed to be the lesser. Undoubtedly he proposed to introduce a new body—a new electoral body—though he agreed with the noble Lord, that we had quite enough already of elections, and that it was not desirable to increase the turmoil which was attendant upon those elections; but did the noble Lord altogether avoid this evil by his proposed scheme? The noble Lord would find that the suburbs of the great manufacturing towns to which the Bill would be applicable, were of so extensive a character, that, as in the case of Nottingham, for instance, the municipal jurisdiction did not extend over more than

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one-third of what might be fairly called the town. He admitted that drainage, cleansing, paving, and the supply of water, were by right the proper functions of municipal corporations; but, unfortunately, these bodies had become so entirely political—or, rather, so strongly political—either on one side or the other, that, whether rightly or wrongly, justly or unjustly, that portion of the inhabitants of towns who did not possess the majority in the corporation did look with very great distrust and apprehension on any powers of taxation for purposes of this description. He wished, with all his heart, that the corporations of England would confine themselves to matters of local interest, attend to sanatory matters, and abandon local politics. [Mr. CHAPLIN: As at Salisbury.] He was glad to hear that that was the case. But whilst the noble Lord was getting rid of one difficulty, he was afraid that be would be incurring others of no less magnitude. But, as he had said, one strong reason against devolving these duties on corporations, was the extent of the suburbs, and the limited jurisdiction of those bodies in large towns. Now, they must either confine the sewerage to the municipal bounds, or embrace the suburbs according to the natural area for drainage; and how were they to do the latter? Would they add the suburbs to the municipality for this purpose only, and without representation, and give the corporation the power of taxing the whole for the expenses incurred under the Bill? By adopting such a plan as that, the corporation of Nottingham, elected by one-third of the inhabitants of the town, would be able to tax the other two-thirds, who were altogether unrepresented in that body. And that he could not conceive to be a just principle. But the noble Lord proposed to get over the difficulty by annexing the suburbs to the municipality, and, where necessary, even to constitute new wards. Thus, at once, they came to the difficulty which the noble Lord was so anxious to avoid—namely, new elections for those wards. So that, in reality, they would not get rid of what he (the Earl of Lincoln) had always felt to be a great objection to his own plan, whilst they avoided all the advantages contained in that plan. The noble Lord would find it extremely difficult to legislate upon this subject in a general measure applicable to the smaller towns, so far as populous towns like Manchester and Liverpool were concerned. In such cases, he thought, it was
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desirable that separate and distinct measures should be introduced. He must admire the courage, but deprecate the rashness, of the noble Lord in venturing to include London in the Bill; and, having carefully considered the subject, and looked at the complicated difficulties which surrounded it, he would venture to foretel his most signal failure in this part of his plans. The noble Lord could no more embrace the City, with Southwark, Westminster, and other districts of the metropolis, in his general measure, than he could Berlin, Paris, or any other continental city, so totally inapplicable to so vast a town, and so complicated a state of rights and interests, was any scheme which was suited to the provincial towns. As to the noble Lord's proposition respecting unincorporated towns, he could not see why to the members of the body elected by the inhabitants, the Crown should add some others; for instance, in the case of Brighton and Cheltenham, he could not see why the Crown should add members to commissioners elected by the inhabitants, any more than in Manchester or Derby. From the observations which he had thought it fitting to address to the House on the subject, he hoped the noble Lord would not anticipate any want of anxiety on his part to render him every assistance towards making the Bill as efficacious as possible for the objects which it contemplated. Having taken a great interest in the matter, he was ready, whether he sat on that (the Opposition) side of the House or the other, to give all his assistance towards making the measure effective; no feeling of jealousy should interfere to prevent his acting in co-operation with the noble Lord; and no one would rejoice more than he, if, in the noble Lord's hands, a good and salutary measure for the country generally should be adopted.
MR. AGLIONBYcould not help congratulating the noble Lord on the great moral courage which he had exhibited in having undertaken this great measure of social reform. He hoped that with the valuable assistance of the noble Lord opposite (the Earl of Lincoln), the noble Lord would succeed in carrying this measure through the House. He thought the attention of the noble Lord had been directed too exclusively to the condition of the large towns. There were small towns and small cities in which the health of the inhabitants was more damaged by the want of such regulations as those which were proposed. [Lord MORPETH: There is no limitation

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proposed by this Bill.] He was aware of that; but the machinery for carrying out the objects of the Bill was more complete with respect to the large towns. He agreed with the noble Lord (the Earl of Lincoln) that there was no necessity for appointing nominees of the Crown in unincorporated towns. The difficulty of dealing with the suburbs did not appear to him to be so insuperable as the noble Lord (the Earl of Lincoln) seemed to think. If elective bodies did not now exist in such districts, why not constitute them? And having made; them bear their proportion of the expenses of sanatory regulations, they ought to be allowed a voice in the election of officers appointed for such an object. Perhaps a corporation was, after all, the best body which could be devised for superintending the various departments of draining, lighting', &c.; and he did not see why the noble Lord should not afford every facility for the incorporation of towns. He was told that a town could not obtain corporate rights unless at a charge of 500 l.; and he thought that such an expense should be no longer imposed on towns whose inhabitants were desirous that they should become incorporated. It would be a great advantage if there was one general Bill for the improvement and management of towns, instead of the numerous separate Acts which were already before Parliament. He thought it would be a great advantage if private Bills were abolished, as they led to great jealousy and irritation amongst the inhabitants of towns when first proposed, and were adjudicated upon by a most objectionable tribunal, for such a purpose—the Committees of that House. In his opinion, a properly constituted local government having been appointed, all questions of improvement of towns might be safely left to the inhabitants. He was opposed to the appointment of a Commission for the purposes of this Bill, and thought the powers which it proposed to invest in a new body might be safely entrusted to the present departments of Government.
MR. GREENE: There were now not less than twenty Bills before Parliament for the improvement of towns. He thought all such Bills should be suspended until this measure and the Clauses Consolidation Bill were disposed of. He objected to the existence of so many separate bodies in towns, as commissioners for paving, lighting, and draining, and thought that general powers should be vested in a corpora-
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tion for all such purposes. He had done his best to retard the progress of the local Bills to which he had referred; but he thought the Government should interfere to prevent any further steps being taken with respect to them, until the two important and general measures which he had mentioned were disposed of.
SIR W. CLAYwillingly added his testimony to the approval already expressed by many hon. Members of the noble Lord's measure. He was sure it was a Bill calculated to confer great advantages on the public; but he must express the same doubts as those of the noble Lord (the Earl of Lincoln) as to the propriety of including the metropolis in its provisions. He thought the noble Lord (Viscount Morpeth) was hardly prepared for the task which he had undertaken in this respect. He trusted the noble Lord would be prepared to afford to all the various interests affected by this measure a fair opportunity for stating their objections to it. He feared that the proposed dissolution of various boards would, on many occasions, give great dissatisfaction. The noble Lord had stated, in a single sentence, that he was about to adopt one mode of supplying water for this great metropolis. The consequence of this would be to destroy the present apparatus for the use of water in every house in London. He mentioned this to show that due time should be allowed for the proper consideration of the very important provisions of this Bill.
MR. HUME: The most important point in reference to this Bill was, that no self-interested associations should be allowed to stand in the way of the general improvements demanded by the public at large. It might be true that those who were able to pay were now sufficiently well supplied with water and gas; but the object of the Government was to bring such advantages within the reach of those who were not, under the present system, able to pay for them. The Government, then, should be prepared to put down all self-interested parties, and consult alone the interests of the many. Let it not be forgotten that the operative classes passed a large portion of their time in a vitiated atmosphere, and that they had no accommodations afforded for the preservation of their health. This Bill was calculated to remove the defects of the present system, and thus to better the condition of the most valuable class in the community. He trusted that after the support

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promised by the noble Lord (the Earl of Lincoln), who had collected most important information on the subject of this Bill, that it would not meet with any serious opposition. Of this he was quite sure, that the noble Lord who brought forward this measure would not prove himself a friend to the working classes if he was not prepared to grapple with the difficulties which beset the course of legislation on which he had entered; and, looking to the general interests of the many, make up his mind to disregard the representations of small interested bodies. The noble Lord might depend on it that the country would not be slow in conveying its acknowledgment of the efforts which he made for the public good. He hoped there would be one uniform system established all over the country, and he had no fear but that the noble Lord would persevere, and not allow the ordinary obstacles which he must expect in such a course to thwart or discourage him.
MR. BROTHERTONoffered his tribute of thanks to the noble Lord for bringing forward such an important measure, which evinced the possession of decided moral courage on his part. There were, no doubt, many difficulties in his path; but they could all be overcome, and he would have the support of the country in forwarding this measure. The introduction of the corporations, as a means of carrying out the objects he proposed, was a most important improvement, as they would offer the best channels of carrying those objects into effect in all the large towns in the kingdom.
MR. PHILIP HOWARDalso supported the measure, and particularly admired that portion of its provisions which committed the carrying out of its details to the different corporations, which he thought would give them some work to do, and thus check the tendency of these bodies to intermeddle with politics. He also thanked the Government for having sent Dr. Reid as their Commissioner down to Carlisle, who, in the course of his visit, had imparted a fund of useful information to the inhabitants.
Leave given. Bill brought in and read a first time.

THE ARMY SERVICE BILL.
On the Motion that the Speaker do now leave the chair for the House to go into Committee on the Army Service Bill,
SIR H. DOUGLASmoved that the Bill
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be committed that day six months. Before proceeding to state his reasons for this, he begged to tender his best thanks to the noble Lord at the head of the Government for his kindness and courtesy in postponing the Bill to meet his (Sir H. Douglas's) convenience, and that of the other professional Gentlemen who felt peculiar interest in the question before the House. He had wished to ascertain the opinion of the highest authority that ever lived in any age or country—the eminent individual now the Commander-in-Chief of the British Armys—on this measure; and had the answer which he (Sir H. Douglas) received to the question which he put on a former evening satisfied him that that eminent man cordially approved, sanctioned, and advised this measure, then, whatever may have been his own opinion on the subject, it would be as nothing compared with the judgment of the great man to whom he referred. He was not inclined to dispute the value of the abstract proposition involved in limited enlistment; but he believed that the complicated affairs and peculiar circumstances of the British isles, and the widely extended colonial dependencies of the empire, rendered the application of the abstract proposition altogether unsuitable to the British Army. His first-reason for opposing the change of system contained in the Bill, referred mainly and solely to the interest of the British soldier. He spoke first as the stedfast friend of the soldier; and he would not proceed to consider the effect which the proposed measure would have upon the service generally, or upon the country, till he had satisfied the House that this measure did not tend to the interest of the soldier, nor was calculated to render the service more attractive to the masses from which soldiers came. It had been asserted by Mr. Wyndham and the advocates of his measure in 1806–7, that limited enlistment would attract to the service a superior description of men, and this is the main object, announced by Her Majesty's Government, in making this change. But this, it appeared to him, will prove as delusive, as the expectations of 1806. No one has ever attempted to show from what class these superior descriptions of men are to come; and the plan of 1807 signally failed. During the eight years preceding 1829, when both limited and unlimited enlistment went together, 82,000 men enlisted for unlimited service, and only 2,000 for limited service. And the numbers of each class enlisted during the first and last four of these eight

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years show such a diminution in the proportion of limited service engagements, that it lapsed, in fact, almost to nothing, and was discontinued. One of Mr. Wyndham's objects was, to do away the bounty. He (Sir H. Douglas) concurred entirely in that view; but this may be done irrespective of the particular term or duration of enlistment. The whole system of bounty is a delusion on the soldier. Whatever bounty is promised, should be a reality, and paid in money; part on enlisting, and the rest on joining; but by charging the bounty with the payment of the soldier's kit, the recruit finds that, instead of being in credit for the remainder of his bounty, he is usually in debt. This occasions great disappointment; it is, in fact, deception, and is, no doubt, a fruitful cause of discontent and desertion. In the French service the kit is provided for the soldiers. So in the service of the United States, where the soldier is better off than in ours, the premium on enlistment is more liberal: the pay is about the same; but every article of personal equipment besides clothing, namely, shirts, flannels, stockings, socks, and shoes, are provided by the public, and thus a great many British soldiers, deserters, are found in the ranks of the United States army. He should not propose to continue the bounty at the present nominal rate, but give some real bounty, and provide the kit at the public expense, so that the charge to the public would not be great. He (Sir H. Douglas) would now proceed to consider how far the Bill was calculated to entice a superior class of men into the service. He should consider what were the honours, what the provision for old age, which were promised under this Bill; and he should then show the effect—the serious effect—which the change was calculated to produce on the discipline of the British Army. The hon. and gallant Member then proceeded to give some figure details, showing the number of men in the various branches of the service who had served more than ten years. The total was 27,150. It was well known that the Bill—the whole Bill—as first drawn up, contained provisions which would have set free this number of our best men — a number equal to one-fifth of the whole British Army; and he would leave the House and the country to consider the effect which would be produced by the discharge of so many men stationed in various colonies of the empire. This evil, however, was staved off by some invisible and unknown guar-
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dian; but should this Bill pass, the evil which had been averted for the present by this protecting hand, must come ultimately into operation. Now, with respect to the superior description of men which this Bill was expected to attract into the service, he called upon the House to look at the inducements which were held out to such persons. Let us see what present inducements are held out to this better class, or to any class of men, to enlist for ten years. Let us examine what are to be their rewards at the expiration; what their public honours; what increase to their fortunes, prospects, and domestic comforts. To have their names enrolled on the same list with men discharged as incapable of further service long before the 10 years' man entered, or was born! Is it the honour of appearing on the public parade with worn-out men for 12 days in each year, for 22 years, and when 50 years of age to get a pension of 6d. a day? And, in the event of the country being invaded, to have the superior post of honour of serving behind stone walls with men discharged as unfit for service in the field? He (Sir H. Douglas) was amazed! Can there he any question as to whether a better class of men can be thus allured? This proposition examined more closely shows that the great object of the measure is, to save the public money—not for the advantage of the soldier or of the military service, but at the expense of both. This far surpasses, in detriment to the soldier, and discredit to the service, the measure contained in a former warrant of bribing the soldier to quit the service, and relinquish all claim to pension, by offering him a premium to take his discharge in the shape of a grant of land in the colonics, with a bonus in money varying from 3 to 6, 12 and 18 months' full pay, with some variations respecting home and foreign service, after the corresponding periods of 15, 16, 17, 18, and 21 years' service, which he was happy to say, few comparatively took, and which being an improvident commutation for any soldier of that standing to accept, led many to great misery, and has very properly been abolished. It is absurd to suppose that a superior class of men would be decoyed into the service by such a scheme. So far from attracting a superior description of men, he felt assured that the class of men from which the Army was usually recruited, would be amazed to learn that Her Majesty's Government could pos-

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sibyl imagine that good men would be decoyed into the service by such flimsy offers. But, if the measure was good, why did not the Government carry it out to the whole Army? They proposed to prohibit a man from enlisting as a soldier for a longer period than 10 years, as being derogatory to the character of a free country and a free man. If that were so, why did they not release soldiers who had already contracted this ignoble engagement? If they did not, there would be one portion of the Army composed of soldiers prohibited from enlisting beyond a period of 10 years, as being inconsistent with the character of a free country, and unworthy of free men; and another part composed of men previously enlisted for periods thus strongly denounced. The proposition to limit the period of enlistment to 10 years, when fairly examined, seemed to him to be neither for the advantage of the man, nor of the military service, nor of the empire. Ten years were just enough to win a man from habits of hard labour, but not deemed sufficient to entitle him to any immediate reward or compensation. He thought that the soldier should be enlisted for no period of service which did not fairly entitle him to a pension. There should be a recompense at the end of every engagement. Let the Government restore the old pension of 1s. a day for 21 years' service, and they would do more for the Army than by any other measure. That would be a remedy for every evil. This would be acceptable to the Army, and creditable to the country. If he (Sir H. Douglas) failed in arresting the progress of this measure, he should in Committee propose Amendments to the effect of what he had just stated. He had received a great many letters from officers of every grade in the Army on this subject; and if he were to read those he held in his hand, or to state the names of the writers, there was not an hon. Member in that House who would not admit that, as well with respect to the artillery, as to the engineers, the cavalry, the infantry, and all the scientific corps, no officers were more distinguished, either now or at any former period of our country's his-history, than those who had addressed him in terms condemnatory of this measure. And it was remarkable that he had been addressed by soldiers as their best friend, for opposing this measure, and for insisting upon an increased rate of pen-
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sion, as the one thing needful. All complained of the reduction of the pensions; some of the smallness of the bounties; others complained of the clothing, in the infantry in particular, as being coarse; but not a single individual soldier complained of unlimited service. He contended that any alteration in the period of enlistment was unnecessary for the recruiting of the Army. At the present moment we had an ample supply of able-bodied recruits; and if there was a demand for more, it could be supplied in a short time without resort to limited service. In 1845 there had been enlisted into the infantry and cavalry, no less than 11,420 persons; in 1846, 24,000; into the artillery corps in 1845, 1,411; and in 1846, 1,000 — in all 37,830 men in two years; and, so far as be knew, not one objection had been made, in any case, to the system of unlimited service. The number of recruits rejected during the same period amounted to 31 per cent, which shows that there was a plentiful supply, admitting even of selection. He had taken some pains to ascertain the different classes of men of which the Army is composed. At present, he found that the great mass of the Army is composed of the best-conditioned class of men they could possibly have. He found that 628 out of every thousand were agricultural labourers and servants; and he appealed to the House whether they could obtain, from any class of men, better soldiers than these usually produced? Ascending a little higher, he found that 310 out of every thousand were artisans and mechanics, a great many of whom turned out good soldiers; but, in general, they were not so able-bodied nor so well conducted as those belonging to the agricultural class is. Of shopmen and clerks he found that there were 43 out of every thousand; but they turned out in general very bad soldiers; and, in general, the higher, the class the worse soldiers they became. Some few consisted of gentlemen's sons, professional gentlemen, licentiates of medicine, divinity, and even law: these turned out the worst soldiers of all. He was sure the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War (Mr. P. Maule), if he remembered anything of his experience in the Army, could not have forgotten what was thought of having a decayed gentleman in his company—a lawyer for instance. The fact was, that nearly all the men, excepting the very humblest class—which, after all,

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is the best and most legitimate stock from which soldiers could be taken—were persons in the decadence of life—men who were not rising, but sinking—men who entered the Army in consequence of some failure or misconduct. He did not mean to say that all these made had soldiers. He had known many gentlemen's sons enter the Army as private soldiers, from being unable to purchase commissions; he had helped some of them on, and many had made their way to commissions. Of the other classes, he had known many who were ornaments of their profession; who had served well as soldiers, and risen to the rank of officers; but there "was no denying that, generally speaking, men who were descending in life, who had failed in business, or had been guilty of some misconduct, and who took refuge in the Army, turned out very bad soldiers. If the Bill attracted such men as these, he could only say, that it would have the worst and most prejudicial effect. He remembered the period when limited service men were mixed up with soldiers enlisted for unlimited service, and could testify to the confusion and insubordination which resulted from the former system. He yesterday received a letter from a distinguished officer who commanded a regiment at the time Mr. Wyndham's Act was in force, which described the baneful effect produced by that measure on the discipline of the Army, and which with the permission of the House he would read:—
"It may seem to be presumption in me to state that I entirely concur in all you said the other day in the House of Commons, and now eon-template, for limiting the duration of service in the Army. With the feeling abroad now upon this subject, I have no doubt some such measure will be carried. I am sorry to say I am old enough to remember the baneful effects produced upon the discipline of the Army by Mr. Wyndham's Act; men became insolent and subordinate as the period of their servitude approached; and it had the effect of making good steady soldiers so also. There was scarcely a third day in the month, that the service of some man did not expire; hence the regiment was kept in an eternal state of excitement and drunkenness. Such will inevitably be the consequence of any limited service measure, when it comes in full operation. When this measure comes into full force, one-third of our Army may be on sea homewards. Consequently, it will have to be increased, if not to that extent, at least to a certain extent. One of the popular reasons assigned for having recourse to a measure, found from previous experience to be inapplicable to this country, is, that it will induce a superior class to enter the Army. I have great doubt, whether it will have any such effect; it is absurd to suppose, that it confers any advantage of sufficient impor-
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tance to induce a man to enlist, who has any other respectable means of living. Still, the mass of the Army must, be composed as heretofore, so long as physical eligibility is the only qualification required, to admit any vagabond into the service. I am not likely to be personally annoyed by the working of any measure that does not come into operation for ten or twelve years. Still, I have a sufficient regard for the posterity of the British Army, to desire to see it established upon such a permanent footing, as to be able to maintain its present proud position to the end of time."
The supporters of the present Bill cited the Continental States, in which limited service prevailed. His reply was, theirs was compulsory service; and compulsory service must be limited. It would be unjust to compel men to serve for an unlimited period; and, accordingly, the condition of all conscription is, that the service must be for limited periods. It was necessary, however, to bear this important point in mind, that in limited service by conscription there is no selection. Under the system which now prevails in this country, there is selection, and that is the reason of the acknowledged physical superiority of the British soldier. Take the Prussian youth but three years a soldier, and compare him with the British soldier of twelve years standing—the superiority of the latter would be at once apparent. Pursue the comparison with respect to the Austrian, the French, and the Russian soldier, and all would be found inferior in physical power to our soldiers. The British bayonet is famed throughout the world; but it is not the temper of the steel which rendered that weapon so formidable to our enemies, it was the sinew and muscle of the men who wielded it—men who had entered into a voluntary engagement for unlimited service. Our great Commander knew the stuff his men were made of, when he exclaimed, "Up, Guards, and at them!" How that appeal was responded to, it was unnecessary to state. When the gallant Picton said to his regiment at a critical moment, "Boys, give them a taste of the cold steel;" his brave 88th overran three times their number. The British soldier feels severely the severities of colonial service; and it would afford every friend of the Army satisfaction, if some safe means could be devised, of abridging the ordinary period of service in our colonial possessions; but he could not approve of the manner in which the Government proposed to effect that object. The great objection to this measure is, the inconvenience—the complications—the endless changes and transfers, it must oc-

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casion, in an Army, of which by far the greater part is stationed in the outward and remote possessions and colonies of the empire. Of our total force of 120 battalions, 80 are employed abroad; and about six battalions are constantly on the sea, relieving and relieved, exclusive of invalids bringing home, and fresh men sending out. Of rank and file, infantry and artillery, serving in the colonies, there are no less than 72,000 men. Already the inconvenience, difficulty, and expense, are very great in relieving and bringing home corps at the periods at present regulated; and in bringing home invalids and in sending out fresh men. What will not that difficulty and inconvenience be, when this measure shall be in full operation, and one tenth annually of 72,000 shall be entitled to discharge and must be brought home? To make more frequent reliefs of corps, and continual changes of men, the number of battalions must be considerably increased. Military men know, and it must be obvious to all hon. Members, that the strength of the main body must bear a certain proportion to the number of out-stations, or posts, to be furnished; their distance from the centre, the remoteness from each other, the frequency of reliefs, and the enlarged period of home duty. For this, if the periods abroad are to be shortened, and large portions of the corps serving abroad, annually changed, the number of battalions must be increased. Bight battalions were added in 1845, but fresh exigencies have since occurred, which more than absorb that augmentation. He would now address himself more particularly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He could not think Her Majesty's Government had taken into calculation, rightly, the vast additional expense which would be caused by sending out reliefs, rendered necessary by those fluctuations which must constantly be taking place, in the regiments in the colonies. The expense of conveying troops to India and the colonies, and bringing them to England, would be enormously increased by this measure. At present it was 243,000 l. annually, exclusive of conveyance to and from India, and of troops moved in vessels of war. These charges would be at least doubled, under the new system. It was said that a large number of the soldiers in India volunteered to remain there. Is not this a strong condemnation of the limitation to ten years? The numbers, so volunteering, in the last year were 2,000; but they did so because they would
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rather be soldiers in India than anywhere else. But if free to return to England, they would not be so ready to remain. Again, the Government at present derives a considerable revenue from the purchase of discharges. The sum raised from this source is sufficient to pay the whole expense of the recruiting establishment: that amount must be given up under the new system. Another sacrifice it will involve is the amount arising from the balance of stoppages from the soldiers in some of the colonies for provisions, above what the rations in those colonies cost; this was about 33,000 l. a year. This arrangement is based upon the principle, that, in unlimited service, a soldier serving in a colony where the stoppages from his pay for his provisions exceed the cost of the ration, may, in his protracted services, find himself, in his next tour of colonial duty, on a station, where the cost of the ration exceeds the stoppage. Limited service disposes of that arrangement. He had endeavoured to prove that the proposed measure would be disadvantageous to the Army, and to the masses whence the Army was drawn. He had shown that the plan was not called for by any necessity, professional, constitutional, political, or economical. It was not justified by experience; for all experience was against it. He would appeal to the country, and to all who knew the British Army, whether it was not at present in the most perfect state of efficiency, and fit for any service, in any part of the world. It was in a high state of discipline, improving in every respect, moral, physical, and, he hoped he might add, intellectual—thanks to the liberality of the House, which had shown a strong disposition to promote that improvement. If there had been any doubt of the efficiency of the Army, he might admit a necessity for considering whether they could not organize it on a better plan. But was ever any Army in a better state? Degrading punishments were falling into disuse. No one had laboured more to diminish those than he had; no one was more anxious that a period should arrive when they would be unnecessary; but he certainly had objected to taking away the power of inflicting punishment, till that better state should be attained. Among the measures which he had advocated for the improvement of the condition of the soldier was the establishment of military savings-banks. And here he would unhesitatingly state, that an impression pre-

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vailed among the men, that by placing money in those banks, they would be affording a proof that their pay was more than sufficient, and that this fact might be taken advantage of by some economist in the House, to propose a reduction in their pay. He was sure this would be disowned and repudiated; he believed the knowledge that the soldier was thus acquiring more provident habits, would rather lead to a contrary result. He did not think that engagement for an unlimited period was the cause of desertion. He believed that this was occasioned by some immediate excitement, passion, grievance, or discontent. One main cause was the severity of foreign service. Desertion in Canada, where it is greatest, shows this. The return which the right hon. the late Secretary of War cited on a former occasion, shows, for instance, that during the five years preceding 1829, when limited service existed, the per centage of desertion in Canada was double—more than double—what it was in the five succeeding years. One serious effect of the proposed plan would be, to throw back on parishes, and on poor rates, numbers of soldiers, with broken health and impaired constitutions, from ten years' service in all climates, and probably with wives and children, who on both accounts will not be re-engaged, and thus reject them upon the classes from which they had been taken, without reward, recompense, or provision, and in destitution. It had been said that this measure will open to the British soldier, an avenue to rank, a course to glory and distinction, at present closed; that the bravest and best soldier can hardly hope at present for any reward beyond the three rings, and that even for a display of valour, which warmed the national heart and made the pulse beat quicker, his country's gratitude afforded him, when crippled, only some 15 l. a year. To this he would first observe, that the pittance promised to soldiers at fifty years of age, by this Bill, was not 15 l., but only 8l. a year; and as to there being no career, hope, or reward, according to the present system, he could tell of many, many gallant deeds done by spirits embodied in men of humble rank, who had made their way to the highest distinction. (The hon. and gallant Member here mentioned several instances of officers now in the Army who had risen from the ranks.) These were men who had done honour to the name of a British soldier, their examples showed that a bright career to fame and rank, which it
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was supposed this measure would open to privates and non-commissioned officers in the Army, was open to them under the existing system, and had been taken advantage of in a manner which showed that no change of system was on this account required. After apologizing for detaining the House so long upon this important measure, the hon. and gallant Member moved that the Bill be committed that day six months.
MAJOR LAYARDfelt a deep interest in the fate of this measure. Believing it to be a measure founded on the principles of justice and humanity, he had been most anxious for its introduction, and he was sorry to find that it should have encountered so relentless and uncompromising an opponent in the person of the hon. and gallant General the Member for Liverpool. The hon. and gallant Member contended that it would operate disadvantageously for the service of the country; but the arguments which the hon. and gallant Member adduced in support of that opinion appeared to him to be singularly inconclusive, and such as ought not to sway the decision of the House upon a question in which were so vitally concerned the happiness and welfare of the British soldier. The present system of enlistment had been found to work most oppressively on the soldier. The lad of eighteen was not permitted under our constitution to marry without the consent of those in authority over him, nor to make a will; and yet at that age he was permitted with his immature experience and imperfect knowledge of life, to enter into a bargain singularly disadvantageous for himself, and indeed for the country too, by surrendering himself over to a service where the authorities might discharge him at any moment, while he was incapacitated from demanding his discharge from them himself. The hon. and gallant Member had expressed his surprise that this measure should have been introduced at such a moment as the present; but if it was true that it was founded on the principle of justice, and if it was also true that the present system of enlistment was an evil, the sooner some such measure as this was introduced, the better for the service and the country. If the measure was in itself a meritorious one, there was no time for introducing it like, the present. The hon. and gallant Member had stated that crime in the Army was on the decrease. Perhaps so; but he had forgotten to mention that in the course of

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three years no less than 28,000 men had been committed to gaol, and that 8,000 had deserted from the colours under which it was represented that such extraordinary felicitjr was to be experienced. The gallant General had also neglected to advert to what appeared to him to be a most melancholy and fearful fact, namely, that one in twenty of the deaths in the cavalry was from suicide. Every twentieth death was a case of self-destruction; and this appalling fact alone proclaimed trumpet-tongued the necessity of reformation in the Army. He had no exception to take to the observations the gallant General had made on the subject of bounty to soldiers. He had always thought it a very great mistake to call that a bounty which was deducted from the soldier's necessaries. The use of such a word was calculated to mislead the soldier, and to make him think that the Army broke faith with him, and that he was at liberty to break faith with it, by deserting on the first opportunity. He admitted that the present system was objectionable, both in name and practice, with respect to bounty; but this admission did not constitute any objection against the present Bill. As for the question of pensions, he admitted that here too there was ample room for improvement. He had always said so. In the Session of 1843, and on various other occasions, he had brought the subject of the total inadequacy of soldiers' pensions under the consideration of the House; and it was worthy of remark that very few, if any, of the hon. and gallant Members who spoke so indignantly on the point in the discussion on the present measure, gave him any assistance or co-operation on the occasions in question. Let them by all means increase the pension; but this he would take leave, to tell them, that though they were to increase it tenfold, and to take the utmost possible care in educating the soldier, he would be unhappy, restless, and discontented, so long as he was a slave for life, as he was under the present system of enlistment. [Cries of "No, no!"] It was easy to cry "No, no;" but be challenged denial of the assertion by any one who had attentively watched the operation of the present system, that it was regarded by the soldier as equivalent to slavery for life. A better class of men would be induced to enter the service by the present measure; and this he considered a desideratum, notwithstanding all that had been said to the contrary by the
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gallant General. A thinking and well-educated man would have no objection to enter the service when he knew that at the end of ten years he could retire from it if he did not like it, and thus the ranks would in all probability be filled with a better description of persons than if the recruits were rash and careless men, who entered thoughtlessly, and were bound for life. Inconvenience might, and probably would, to some extent result from the measure to adjutants and colonels; but it was better that officers should have to endure a slight annoyance, than that the soldiers should be subjected to the much more painful inconvenience of being slaves for life. The term of ten years was objected to because it was said that that was just the time when a man ought to become entitled to a pension. But, if a man was anxious to obtain a pension, he must remember that his country had some claim upon him for a continuation of service; and by leaving the service at the expiration of ten years, he would be voluntarily resigning any claim he might otherwise have upon the country. The hon. and gallant Officer had talked of the great expense that would be incurred by sending men home from the East Indies and the colonies after their service of ten years had expired. But while this most striking fact existed, that 164 persons drew from the revenue of the country 1,600,000 l. a year, that revenue amounting to only 52,000,000 l.; that was to say, 164 persons received not less than one-thirtieth of the whole revenue of the country: whilst this fact remained, he trusted he should never again hear of the expense of bringing men from India as a question of consideration. Had the hon. and gallant Officer ever commanded a regiment of the line? Had he ever served in India? Had he ever been in the West Indies? He had not! then, what was it to him that the hon. and gallant Officer came down to that House and talked of his rank and of his fifty years' experience. Men holding the station of that hon. and gallant Officer were either above seeing, or were placed in a situation where they could not see or hear, what actually occurred among the men in the Army. The hon. and gallant Member had said that he had never heard the men complain of enlistment for life. Why, how could he hear them? Would he go to the men and ask them? It was unreasonable to suppose that men would make their complaints known to persons holding the rank which

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the hon. and gallant Officer held in the Army. He most heartily thanked Her Majesty's Government for having brought forward this measure. It was just and right, and was one which public opinion must and would carry. It was a measure which, he believed, if put to the ballot, would meet with the support of many men of rank in the Army, who, under peculiar circumstances, dared not openly avow their sentiments upon it. It was one which he had long been most anxious to see carried; and he gloried at the arrival of the day when it had at length become successful.
MR. S. HERBERTsaid, that his opinion with regard to enlistment for an unlimited period was already on record. He considered unlimited enlistment objectionable; but he thought that those Gentlemen who urged the discontinuance of the system very much exaggerated the evils that were supposed to result from it. There was no such thing practically in this country as unlimited enlistment. In practice, as far as the service of the Army was concerned, this was the principle—until the men had completed a certain period of service they were not entitled to pensions; but when they had completed their twenty-one years, when they were entitled to it, a system of fraud prevailed to get their discharge. It 1845 there were 2,000 men who had served much longer than twenty-one years; but it was obvious that there would have been many more then but for the pensions given immediately on the completion of that period. The great majority, however, of the men in the Army left the service after fifteen years' service; and the largest proportion of that body did so at twenty-one years' service. About 12,000 men left the Army every year. About 3,000 of these got pensions, and about 3,000 were purchased out. Thus about 6,000 men left the Army by regular discharge, and the rest by fraud or other means. If they took the period for enlistment at that time the largest body of men naturally left the Army, the experiment would be much less hazardous than that now proposed. He objected to very short periods of enlistment, although the period of service was very short in the Continental armies; but this was a compulsory service. He was satisfied that it was impossible to compel men by enrolment or conscription to remain for a very long time. They would also find that there were the greatest complaints on the Con-
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tinent, and more especially in France, on the part of the relations of the young men who had served in these armies, that they came back to their homes totally unfit for any other purpose. Then there was another danger—namely, that they might produce such a state of things by a legislative measure of this kind, that a very large proportion of the population should have passed through the ranks of the Army, and thus have obtained a knowledge of military discipline and habits. He was aware that this was a very unpopular view of the subject; but he should not be deterred by that from expressing his opinion on it. In all these countries to which he had alluded, popular commotions were rendered more dangerous by those who had been discharged from the Army. In England a disturbance could be put down by a few watchmen or policemen; but in Continental States, disturbances, apparently trivial in the first instance, became of a formidable character. On the Continent, any imaginary or just cause of complaint gave rise to serious outbreaks, in which an active part was taken by men who had been trained as soldiers, and had been accustomed to military movements, and they only wanted uniforms to make them, an army. This was a very proper matter for the consideration of the Government. When the London police was first established, it was formed to a considerable extent from disbanded soldiers; and it was the opinion of the police commissioners, that they never had men upon whom they could so much depend as those who belonged to the force at first. They had repeatedly stated that they never had such steady men as the non-commissioned officers. If they made the time of service so short as ten years, they must take care that they held out to the men sufficient inducements to enlist for a further period. The right hon. Gentleman said on a former occasion that with respect to short enlistments, some measures should be adopted to aid the parties who so engaged themselves. He (Mr. Sidney Herbert) believed that it was clearly impossible that they could give pensions after only ten years' service; and he also believed that the project of the right hon. Gentleman would not secure that inducement which he anticipated. The right hon. Gentleman's proposal was, that if a man, after having left the Army, served for twenty years in a local corps, he should be entitled to a pension. If the men entered into other em-

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ployments, they would subject themselves to annoyance in being called out for several days at a time for the purpose of exercise, and being without pay for a longer period than they were kept out. They might as well expect to succeed in such a project, as if, as was stated by the gallant General, they contracted to pay a man's funeral expenses. For his own part, he would recommend fourteen years as the period of enlistment. It must be recollected that much of that period would be on foreign service. According to the present arrangement the period of foreign service was ten years, and the period of home service also ten years. He believed that this plan was obtainable after the increase of the Army last year. By the plan proposed in the Bill, one man might have to serve five years at home and five abroad, another ten years at home and another ten years altogether abroad, for each man must be discharged at the end of that period. This would be a matter for calculation, for the constant moving the men in consequence of this would make an important addition to the expenditure. It would be difficult accurately to estimate the additional expense of moving the troops to and from the Colonies in consequence of this arrangement. He believed that the present charge on the Navy for this purpose was about 200,000 l. In India, however, circumstances were different, for a great number of the soldiers contracted marriages there, and had families, and living luxurious lives in comparison with the soldiers here, they were induced to volunteer into other regiments instead of coming home. There was a different state of things in our Colonies; he, therefore, wished to know what was calculated to be the additional expense for raising troops to supply the place of those who were entitled to their discharge, having completed their period of service. If he was not mistaken, the number of troops that it would be necessary to move in consequence of this measure, would be 3,000 or 4,000 a year. Again, it would not be worth while for men who had only enlisted for ten years to purchase their discharges. He did not believe there was in the Army a strong feeling against unlimited enlistment. He thought that to increase the pensions and the comforts of the soldier, would, upon the whole, have a much greater effect than diminishing the length of service. In fact, it was not a superior class of men, but superior men of the same class,
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that they wanted; and that object, he was ready to admit, to a certain extent they might attain by means of limited enlistment. It certainly appeared objectionable to his mind to call upon a boy of seventeen, whose father would not trust him with the making of a bargain in his own business, to enter into a contract by which he bound himself to an unlimited service; and that was the reason why parents, among the humbler classes in this country, looked with alarm on the arrival in their neighbourhood of a recruiting party, in the fear that their sons would be kidnapped and separated from them for ever. Still, that the new plan would be found to produce very great advantages, he doubted, though it might obtain for the Army a better sort of men. He would be ready to give a system of limited enlistment; to obviate the evils which it was certainly calculated to meet; but then he would have wished to fix a more lengthened period for that limited service than was now proposed by the right hon. Gentleman; and he would have done this in order to obviate the great increase of expense which must attend this alteration, and the necessity of frequent change; and a period of fourteen years would have been long enough to prevent one evil which he thought it was important to prevent, namely, the turning out upon society every now and then a large number of men with the habits of soldiers fixed upon them. Further, he thought that when they were about to have a measure which would most clearly diminish the amount of the army pensions, an opportunity was presented for revising the pension list of 1833, which ought not to be overlooked. This was not a new idea of his; but now he saw a possibility for carrying out his proposal, because they would have a diminution of the whole amount of pensions, and consequently a fund from which a revision might be effected without additional expense upon the whole. Then it was to be considered that the pension list of 1833 would not come into effect until 1854, and then there would be a great and sudden diminution of the dead weight; and the plan he wished to see adopted would diminish a saving of 66,000 l. a year, by 22,000 l. a year, leaving a clear yearly saving of 44,000 l. One of the results of a ten years' service would be that many men would leave the Army at the end of that time without demanding any pension; it was clear the dead weight would be diminished, and something might be effected

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without additional expenditure. He threw out these suggestions for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman, and not with any intention of voting with the hon. and gallant General, with whose views he did not agree. Still he must say he was not without apprehensions of the working of this measure; and it would be a great satisfaction to him if the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule), who had so efficiently taken up the subject of army reform, would take these points into his consideration. The right hon. Gentleman, he thought, might make a great improvement in his measure if he would take into his consideration the probable effect of it as it stood upon men who had been long in the service. He admitted that it would be quite impossible to deprive the Army suddenly of 20,000 men; but then he thought it was imprudent in the right hon. Gentleman to speak in such strong terms of the state in which he left these men. There would be great difficulties, he (Mr. S. Herbert) thought in having two classes of men; one of men who had enlisted for a term which had been so much stigmatized as that of the present system of enlistment, and the other of those who had a less period of service before them. The man enlisted on the day that this Bill received the Royal Assent, would be engaged for life—an engagement of which the right hon. Gentleman had spoken in such strong terms—and the man who enlisted the day after would be engaged for the diminished period. It was in no spirit of hostility that he (Mr. S. Herbert) had thrown out these suggestions; he offered them for the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman; and in his opinion the right hon. Gentleman would do wisely if, before he brought up the Report, he made those alterations in the measure which would render it more acceptable to the Army, and more safe for the country at large.
MR. F. MAULEconsidered that the right hon. Gentleman acknowledged the principle of the Bill, but that he had objections to the details of it on two or three different points. The right hon. Gentleman had first objected to the period which the Bill proposed to make the first enlistment of the soldier last for; secondly, the right hon. Gentleman objected to the system of offering the soldier, if he quitted the Army in ten years, an enrolment for a pension; and then the right hon. Gentleman objected to the expense which the Bill threw on the public. The right hon. Gen-
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tleman also suggested, with reference to the acceptability of the Bill to the Army, that there were other measures by which the military service could be made more acceptable to those who entered it than the Bill gave the means of effecting; and he suggested a reconsideration of the pension warrant of 1833, with a view to increasing the soldier's pension after the completion of twenty-one years' service. Now, first, the right hon. Gentleman proposed, instead of ten to take fourteen years' service; but he thought it must fall within the natural supposition of every one in the House, that in considering this question the necessity of fixing some definite period had been kept in view, and he had not adopted the period of ten years as a matter of vague indefinite chance-work, but upon reason. He might have taken Mr. Windham's term of seven years, or the right hon. Gentleman's period of fourteen. But to fourteen there was this objection in his mind—they would enlist a youth at eighteen years of age, who would serve fourteen years, and then, at thirty-two, he would have served his time; but then, at the age of thirty-two, he thought most commanding officers would have a strong objection, if they could get rid of that man, to re-enlist him, and the event would be, that such strong discouragement would be held out against re-enlisting, that the soldier would be cast out upon society without any pension at the end of his fourteen years' service. If, however, the soldier was to have a pension at the end of fourteen years' service, then, on the behalf of the public, he should still more strongly object to the plan. It was on these grounds that he had taken the period of ten years. Now, with reference to the option he gave to the soldier to enrol for a pension, he could not admit the objection to it, that it would have the effect of martializing (if he might call it so) the whole country. The right hon. Gentleman objected to sending men back into society with all the habits of the Army fixed upon them; and the right hon. Gentleman feared that, trained and accustomed to habits of discipline and order as those men were, they would send back into society a body who would be dangerous to the peace of the country, and might in time of trouble prove an evil in the State. He thought they must judge of the probable result of their conduct by what had been the conduct of other men, who were old soldiers, and who had been thrown upon society abroad. Now, during

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the Canadian rebellion, every temptation was thrown in the way of the pensioners to induce them to join the ranks of the enemy, and to give to the disaffected the benefit of their military knowledge; and yet, to a man, every pensioner proved loyal, and came as one man to the assistance of the Government, and enrolled themselves in the British service. [Sir H. DOUGLAS: They were pensioned.] That was true; but here the men would be serving for a deferred pension at the end of twenty years of exactly the same amount as was at present given to a soldier who had served in the ranks for twenty-one years. Therefore, the man enrolled for a deferred pension would have the same prospect to look forward to at the end of the twenty years' enrolled service, after leaving the Army, as the soldier had at the end of his twenty-one years' actual service. He did not believe that there would be even a small body of men in the country willing to encourage the people to form themselves into military bodies, or, if there were excitement abroad, that they would be found leading the people into mischief; on the contrary, he thought that on mixing themselves with their fellow-citizens throughout the country they would set an example of good order, and that though they had retired from active military duties, they would in the twelve days of each year meet their old companions; that instead of losing the good habits they had acquired as soldiers, they would retain their habits of order and good conduct; and that the objection of the right hon. Gentleman was merely imaginary. With respect to expense, he did not much apprehend any danger. If the men took their discharge at the end of ten years, there might be a saving in the amount of pensions; but be did not deem that a point which ought to weigh in their consideration: as to the extra expense in the movements of the troops, he did not believe, after the men had served ten years, that they would refuse to re-enlist themselves, for at the end of ten years the rough part of a soldier's duty had passed, and at the end of eleven years more, they would have to look for all the benefits and advantages which were at present held out to him for the full period of service. And here he must remind the gallant Officer (Sir H. Douglas) who opposed the Bill altogether, that year by year, and in Administration after Administration, the period of the soldier's service had been gradually dwindling down in proportion to the good
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behaviour, and that at the present moment, with two good marks, and after twelve years of service, the soldier was entitled to claim his discharge. If there were to be a detriment from a limited period of service in the Army, why was there not the same detriment in the Naval service? Yet in the Navy, the service was for three years or five years, or for a period during which there was war. He was not talking of a period of war, but of a time of peace, and of introducing a system which might render the Army more palatable to the classes from which it was recruited. As to the conduct of the gallant General, he thought that he had a right to complain of his bringing on two separate debates; and that he did not oppose the Bill on the stage in which the principle was decided, but allowed it to go to the stage in which it then was, and now opposed the principle. In the meantime, the gallant General had found out, or fancied he had found out, that the Bill was opposed to opinions in high quarters. Now the gallant Officer had been in authority, and he knew the nature of confidential communications between military and civil authorities, and yet he asked his noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) to state the nature of communications strictly confidential, which had passed between the First Minister of the Crown, and the Commander-in-Chief; and on his noble Friend declining to answer the question, the gallant Officer assumed that the Duke of Wellington was opposed to this Bill. He thought that a more unwarrantable assumption he had never heard than that, in consequence of the silence of his noble Friend, another party held opinions—of which the hon. and gallant Gentleman knew nothing—opposed to a measure which the Government had brought forward on their own responsibility; and he greatly mistook the character of the Duke of Wellington if he would thank the gallant Officer for the position in which he had put the noble Duke. Without any authority, the gallant General had put the Duke of Wellington, whatever might be the unpopularity of such a course, in opposition to this measure; and he had put upon the Commander-in-Chief the responsibility of opposing a measure, when it was quite possible that of such an intention the Commander-in-Chief might be entirely innocent. Again, the hon. and gallant Officer assumed, that the Bill was totally unacceptable to the soldiers, or to the mass of them; and the gallant Officer said, that

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he had had many communications with soldiers, and not one had pressed him for a limited enlistment. The gallant General might have had applications about pensions, or about the smartness of dress, or about other matters which those who attended minutely to the Army, laid themselves out for, and on which the soldiers would naturally apply to him; but they did not apply to him about limited enlistment, because he could not give them relief, and they knew that he was totally opposed to any complaint on that subject. The gallant General assumed the other night, that limited service was of no benefit, and the country derived no advantage from the men who served only ten years. Did he not know that the Peninsular army was formed of men who had only served ten, nine, or even eight years? He had stated that the Duke of Wellington, in one of his despatches, had reported that 800,000 dollars were spent to re-enlist the army when Mr. Wyndham's first enlistment was about to expire in the year 1813. He could not comprehend where the gallant Officer got his information. [Sir H. DOUGLAS: From the despatch.] It was so in the despatch, but it must be erroneous, for the bounty was then for limited enlistment, eleven guineas, and for unlimited enlistment, sixteen guineas; but taking the average at 15 l. a man, if 800,000 or 900,000 dollars, as he believed it stood in the despatch, had been spent in re-enlisting the men on that occasion, there must have been a re-enlistment of upwards of 12,000 men. The number in 1806 was 20,672. The decrease in the Army at that time, was nine per cent per annum; in seven years, therefore, the decrease must have amounted to about 10,000 men. Thus 10,677 men were all that remained, taking the average increase in those seven years; and yet, according to the statement which had been made, 12,000 men must have re-enlisted. He could not understand how this result was achieved. The Peninsular forces at that time, consisted only of one-sixth of the Army; so that there could only have been in that army, about 1,800 men who had seen any lengthened service. And the real fact of the matter was this, that, in 1811, when the Peninsular war was at its height, the entire number of men in the British Army was 200,000; and, of these 200,000, the greater proportion of them being in the Peninsula, in the years 1807–8–9–10, that was to say in four years,
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making only three or four years service, 105,000, or 106,000 were of this description. The great proportion of these were men in the army of the Peninsula. So far as regarded young soldiers, men of two or three years' service; he thought, therefore, he had proved that they were the men who had fought those very battles to which the hon. and gallant Officer so proudly referred, and to which the country so proudly looked back; and that it did not necessarily require those who were termed old and seasoned soldiers to win victories as remarkable as had ever been gained. Who were the men who contended at Waterloo? They were the recruits; the veteran troops were far away, on the other side of the Atlantic, with the veteran generals, too, at the head of them. Every one knew how that gallant and distinguished officer, Sir J. Kempt, then stationed in Canada, arrived by great energy and exertion, having smelt the war afar off, and, in his haste, bringing for the whole of his baggage one portmanteau, at the field of Waterloo. There was still another reason why he must press this Bill upon the House. It was on the score of humanity. He would show that the men who best endured the variations of foreign climates of every character and description, were those who had been in service from one to ten years. He was enabled to prove this by reference to an abstract of the returns furnished to the Government by Dr. M'Leod, Inspector General of Military Hospitals in Bengal. In the East Indies, in 1837, the deaths among soldiers, from eighteen to twenty years of age, were sixteen in the thousand; from twenty to twenty-two, twenty-three in the thousand; from twenty-two to twenty-four, thirty-four in the thousand; from twenty-four to thirty, the ten years being then completed, fifty-five in the thousand. Then, after a service of ten years, the deaths among soldiers from thirty to thirty-five years of age, were fifty-one in the thousand; from thirty-five to forty-five, sixty-three in the thousand; and from forty-five to fifty-five, the deaths were eighty in the thousand. In Ceylon, it appeared that the deaths among soldiers from eighteen to twenty-five years of age, were twenty-four in the thousand; from from twenty-five to thirty-three, fifty-fifty in the thousand; from thirty-three to forty, eighty-six; and above forty, 126 in the thousand. In the Mauritius, the deaths among men from eighteen to twenty-five

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years of age were twenty-one; from twenty-five to thirty-three, thirty-eight in the thousand; from thirty-three to forty, fifty-three in the thousand; and above forty, eighty-seven in the thousand. In Jamaica, before the establishment of the sanitary regulations introduced by his noble Friend (Earl Grey), the deaths between eighteen and twenty-five were seventy; between twenty-five and thirty-three, 107; between thirty-three and forty, 131; and above forty, 128 in the thousand. In the West Indies, at the Cape of Good Hope, and in general throughout the whole of our colonies, the same proportion existed; plainly and distinctly proving that, if they desired the smallest possible sacrifice of life in our colonies, they would send out men varying in their ages from twenty to thirty, in preference to men who had passed that age. He hoped he had convinced every hon. Gentleman, that, on the score of humanity, he was justified in urging this measure on the House. He could not promise that he could at all alter the principle he had now laid down as the most suitable basis for the Bill. He thought that the periods of service which he had fixed upon, were those which would be fair to the men and fair to the public; and even if some extra expense should be incurred by the new system, he believed his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not unprepared to meet that emergency. It was argued that he held out no novel inducement whatever to the soldier to enlist; but if that were not the case, he certainly did not expect, that after a service of ten years there would be any great disrelish, on the part of the soldier, to re-enlistment. It was, he admitted, an experiment; but it was an experiment so surrounded with good prospects, that he did not hesitate taking on himself, so far as he was officially concerned, the responsibility of suggesting it to the Legislature. He earnestly trusted, that whether the House was to carry or reject it, they would come to a decision at once, in order, either that it might be passed concurrently with the Mutiny Bill, or, if rejected, that the Mutiny Bill might, without any further delay, be sent in a proper condition up to the House of Lords.
COLONEL WOODobserved, that the speech of his right hon. Friend the Member for Wiltshire convinced him that if they once departed from the system of unlimited enlistment, they would sooner or later be compelled to adopt the recommendation of
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Mr. Wyndham, and decide upon establishing a service varying from seven to fourteen years. He hoped, however, his right hon. Friend did not give the high sanction of his authority to a proposal the effect of which would be to turn the soldier loose upon society after a service of fourteen years, after the best part of his life had been spent, without any pension whatever. He did not believe that any danger to the State was to be apprehended from turning a man, versed in military practices, out of the Army into the ranks of the people. The inclination of men who had once served in the Army or Navy was to adhere to their cloth, and to remain loyal; and so long as the middle classes continued as they were, there was little reason to dread a social disturbance. He did not understand why the right hon. Gentleman would consent to no alteration of the originally proposed period. The country would be a positive gainer from the men leaving after ten years' service. He thought the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman was a great improvement on the present System; and, therefore, he would not be captious, although it was not quite what he wished. But his chief reason for supporting this Bill was, that it would give a death-blow to the Warrant of 1833, issued by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control. The proper course to take would, in his opinion, be to cancel that warrant, and establish a new one.
SIR DE L. EVANSwished only to say, that after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) and the right hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House (Mr. S. Herbert), he thought it unnecessary for the warmest advocate of the Bill to trespass on their time; and he was ready at once to go into Committee upon it.
COLONEL REIDsaid, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) seemed to think that the dispersion of so large a number of men as 20,000, or, as the right hon. Gentleman called it, martializing so large a part of the population as would occur if this Bill passed, would be an imaginary danger. But in confirmation of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sidney Herbert's) opinion, that there was real danger in thus martializing the population, he could quote the words of the Duke of Wellington:—
"While Charles X. was able to preserve the peace of Paris with an army of from 500 to 1,000 men, it had required ever since the Revolution of July, 1830, 00,000 men, on an average, to preserve

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the tranquillity of the capital. What had happened at Bristol and Lyons showed the difference in power and efficiency between the existing Governments of France and England. The calamity at Bristol was at once put an end to as soon as an officer, at the head of a military detachment was found to do his duty; whereas, it required not less than 40,000 of the best troops in France, with the Minister of War and the Prince of the blood at their head, to quell, in the same time, the disturbances that had taken place at Lyons."
In his opinion, as the Reform Bill added to the political power of the people, so this measure was likely to add to their physical power.
SIR H. DOUGLAS, after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War, would not divide the House.
House then went into Committee pro formâ; and, having resumed, the further consideration of the Bill was adjourned.

FEVER BILL (IRELAND).
House in Committee on the Fever Bill (Ireland).
The EARL of LINCOLNremarked, that he had no desire to interfere with the progress of the Bill, as he supposed some such measure was required in the present state of Ireland, and especially as he had urged upon the House, at an early period of the Session, the advisability of reconstituting the Central Board of Health. His principal object in rising on the present occasion was, to call attention to the statements which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Labouchcre). That right hon. Gentleman had given as his reason why the Board of Health should not be reconstituted, that great abuses had crept into the system as carried on by the late Government. He stated that certain acts to which he then referred had rendered it necessary to discontinue the Central Board of Health; and he remarked that numerous abuses had taken place; that the expenditure had been lavish and wasteful; and that the various complaints of mismanagement which had reached the Government, had made them determine to suspend the operations of the board. He would not move an amendment on the Bill, but he could not help expressing his belief, that, as regarded the permanent interests of Ireland and the proper application of relief, it was a great oversight in the Government not to have adhered to the Bill of last Session, and made the expenses be borne by the poor rates in the usual manner.
MR. LABOUCHEREassured the noble
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Lord that the Bill had been prepared with great care, and had received the sanction of the highest authorities in Ireland, and of those who were most conversant with the state of that country. The present circumstances of the Irish people, and the necessity of providing relief, justified the departure from the Bill of last Session, alluded to by the noble Lord.
House resumed. Bill to be reported.
House adjourned at twenty minutes past One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Marine Mutiny.
2a General Register House (Edinburgh).
3a and passed: Markets and Fairs Clauses; Gas Works Clauses; Commissioners Clauses; Water Works Clauses.
Received the Royal Assent.—Drainnge of Land.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Brougham, from Bridport and several other places, against the proposed Government Plan of Education.—From the Parish of Kilgerran, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement and for a National Rate.—From Shepton Mallett, for Repeal of the Poor Removal Act.—By Lord Brougham, from the Presbytery of Forres, against the proposed Measures of Registration of Births and Marriages (Scotland).—From Bath and several other places, for Legalizing Marriages with the Sister or other more Remote Relation of the Deceased Wife.

THE LAW OF BANKRUPTCY AND INSOLVENCY.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that he had received a great number of letters on the subject of imprisonment for debt, and they all originated in a complete misapprehension of what had fallen from him. He had stated distinctly more than once last week, that persons who were in debt from misfortune had not the slightest ground to be alarmed by the statement which had appeared in a Sunday paper, which alleged that he had altered his opinion on the subject of imprisonment for debt, and that he had brought forward a measure for the restoration of the old law on the subject. Nothing was more groundless than such an assertion, and he had never said one word about the matter in connexion with the Bill. His noble Friend on the woolsack knew as well as himself that it was utterly impossible for the Legislature ever to retrace its steps on the subject of imprisonment for debt. A most respectable witness had that day been examined before the Committee on the Execution of the Criminal Law—he meant the governor of Lancaster Castle—who said that there
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were between seventy and eighty prisoners at present confined there for debt. Now there was no reason why the far greater portion of them should be there, for it appeared that they had been imprisoned in consequence of a bad and mistaken construction put on the Act of 1844: several persons also, it appeared, were imprisoned by order of the courts of request at Lancaster, for alleged contempt. He repeated that nothing could be more entirely wrong than the change of opinion on the subject which had been attributed to him.

ELECTION OF REPRESENTATIVE PEERS (SCOTLAND).
LORD COLVILLEmoved—
"That there be laid before this House, A Copy of the Minutes of Proceedings which took place at Holyrood House, on the 17th Day of the present Month of March, at the Election of a Representative Peer of Scotland, to sit and vote in the House of Lords; together with the Titles under which the Peers respectively voted."
He did not believe that there would be any objection to his Motion, and therefore it would be unnecessary for him to detain the House on it; and from what had fallen on a former occasion from various noble Lords, he was satisfied that this subject would ere long be taken up by abler hands than his. He did not mean by the present Motion to throw discredit upon the body to whom the matter related; but he begged to observe that, while due care was taken both in England and Ireland that no person should exercise the privileges of a Peer without producing sufficient proof that he was entitled so to do, in Scotland there was no such precaution. All that was necessary on occasions of the kind to which his Motion had reference was, that a man should assert himself to be a Representative Peer, and take the oaths of supremacy and abjuration. This was a state of matters that ought to be remedied; and he trusted that in what he was now doing he was only the pioneer to clear the way for others who would, after Easter, take the subject into their more able hands. He saw in a Scotch paper that morning an allusion to the proceedings which had taken place in that House on Friday last, and in which it was stated that "some conversation arose on a statement made by Lord Colville, of Culross, that a fradulent assumption of his title had been made by an individual who had voted as Lord Colville, of Ochiltree, at the last election." Now, it would be in the recollection of the House, that he had

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stated that he was no more personally connected with the matter than any other Peer of Scotland. That the person who voted on the late occasion called himself by the title of Lord Colville, of Ochiltree, whereas his (the noble Lord's) title was Lord Colville, of Culross. He never said that it was an assumption of his own title; but he complained of it on public grounds, and as a matter in which not merely the Peerage of Scotland, but that House and the whole country, were interested.
LORD CAMPBELLwas glad the noble Lord had brought the matter under the notice of the House; and he trusted that the subject would be pressed on the attention of their Lordships until the whole question was set at rest. It was a question not merely affecting the Scotch Peers, but it was a matter deeply affecting the public generally, for many persons were often defrauded by the improper and illegal assumption of the title of Scotch Peers by those who had not the slightest right to them. He hoped when the returns were laid on the Table, that the noble Lord would follow the Motion up by moving for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the whole subject.
LORD BROUGHAMagreed that that was the proper course to pursue. As the custom at present stood, a mere mendicant might go into Holyrood House, and on the same claim could vote at the election of a Scotch Peer, and thus the result of most important questions might be influenced in that House.
The EARL of ROSEBERYagreed that the law was defective on this subject, but he thought that it would be better not to go into the question until the returns were before the House.
Motion agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE—THE NEW HOUSE OF LORDS.
EARL GREYrose to move the adjournment of the House until after Easter, and said that, in consequence of a suggestion which had been made on a former evening by a noble Lord (the Earl of Wicklow), that their Lordships should adjourn to Thursday, the 15th of April, instead of to Tuesday, the 13th of April, the day originally named, he (Earl Grey) had made inquiries on the subject. He found that no public inconvenience could result from adjourning to Thursday, the 15th, while it would be more convenient to many noble Lords to adjourn to that day. He, therefore,
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proposed that their Lordships, at rising, should adjourn to Thursday, the 15th of April next. He begged at the same time to give notice, that after the recess their Lordships would sit in their new House, Her Majesty being pleased to assign that portion of the new building of the Palace of Westminster to the use of their Lordships.
House adjourned to Thursday, the 15th of April.