Sitting of 25 March 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Fever (Ireland).
3° and passed:—Indemnity.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Smith O'Brien, from Dublin, for Inquiry respecting the Rajah of Sattara.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Tavistock, against the Use of Grain in Breweries and Distilleries.—By Mr. Hawes, from Hays, Irvine, and Co., of Mark Lane, London, for Relief respecting the Corn Importation Act (1842).—By Colonel T. Wood, from Guardians of the Isle of Thanet Union, in Favour of the Rating of Tenements (No. 2) Bill.—By Sir G. Grey, from Ratepayers of the Parish of St. George the Martyr, Queen Square, London, for Extension of the Baths and Washhouses Act.—By Mr. F. Baring and other Hon. Members, from several places, against the Government Scheme of Education.—By Mr. Lockhart, from Glasgow, for Encouragement to Emigration (Scotland).—By Mr. M. Bell, from Blyth, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Mr. J. O'Connell, from several places, for Alteration of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. S. Herbert, from Guardians of the Poor of the Aldenbury Union, and Colonel T. Wood, from Guardians of the Poor of the Parish of Saint Luke, Chelsea, for Repeal or Alteration of the Poor Removal Act.—By Mr. Lockhart, from Glasgow, against the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.—By Lord Dalmeny and Mr. Lockhart, from several places, for Compensation respecting the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill; and the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. Houldsworth, from Radford, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement.

THE POOR OF IRELAND—CONDUCT OF THE GOVERNMENT.
On the Order of the Day being read for going into Committee on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill,
MR. J. O'CONNELLrose to call the attention of the Government to the appalling consequences which had followed the execution of the instructions given to reduce by 20 per cent the destitute persons employed on public works in Ireland. He was sure that the noble Lord the First Minister of the Crown had intended, when he advised this course, to do that which he considered to be the best for the condition of the Irish people; but letters received from Ireland by every post contained intelligence that the reduction of the number of labourers would entail the most lamentable consequences to the suffering people. He supposed the reduction was to be carried out by the Commissioners of Public Works, who considered themselves not at liberty to exercise their judgments with respect to the requirements and attendant
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circumstances of the various districts. It should be borne in mind that these men were not thrown upon the resources of private works, neither were they thrown upon their own resources; for—God help them!—they had none left: but they were doomed by an unexpected and undeserved edict to a terrible, painful, and immediate death. He held in his hand a letter from the rev. Bernerd Duncan, parish priest of Kilcanduff, in the deanery of Swinford, county Mayo, descriptive of the dreadful sufferings of his parishioners, and expressing the alarm which he entertained at the consequence which would inevitably ensue, were the people to be deprived of their only resource, and dismissed from their employment. The rev. gentleman wrote—
"The union contains a population of 11,000 persons. The greatest number of persons employed at any time did not exceed 1,800, which was considerably below the scale generally allowed. The consequence of a great portion of the public works being suspended is, that the people are actually starving. It is my firm conviction, that unless the works are immediately resumed (of which there is at present no appearance), or unless God especially interposes to save them, numbers must inevitably perish."
He had also received a letter from the rev. Malachy Duggan, parish priest of Carrigaholt, descriptive of the state of things in his neighbourhood. The rev. gentleman wrote—
"The greatest terror and dismay reign here to-day. The one-fifth of the working lists will be struck off to-morrow. We know what will happen. Of this we are certain, that many will die who have no resource to sustain life but the labour of their hands. Oh, what legislation! All the machinery has been wrong from the commencement."
In the Freeman's Journal of Tuesday, the 23rd instant, there were also to be found a number of letters similar in their character, and all expressive of the most melancholy forebodings regarding the consequences which must result from the sudden reduction of 20 per cent of the employed poor. One of those letters was dated "Ballyglass, county Mayo, March 20," and the writer said—
"Relative to the Government order for striking off 20 per cent of the labourers now employed from the public works, and the effect produced by this terrible edict among my parishioners, I have to inform you that yesterday, for the first time, I received a communication from the chairman of our relief committee upon this subject. I waited on the inspecting officer at Castlebar, to remonstrate with him on the cruelty of such a proceeding, particularly as he knew the awful amount of destitution in the neighbourhood. I told the inspecting officer that out of 1,200 families in Bal-

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lintubber and Killavalla, there were not 12 who had one hundredweight of seed oats; that they were all on the same level, without food, without money, without any resource on earth but the public works to enable them to drag out a miserable existence; that until some other substitute were provided for the people, to close up this only resource would be signing the death warrant of every individual thrown out of employment. I showed the officer the census of the parish from our committee register; and though he could not deny that the most dreadful consequences were to be apprehended, still his answer was, 'that the Government orders were peremptory.' As a member of the Ballintubber relief committee, I shall not be a party to so reckless a measure. The landlords of this district have, up to this, shown no concern for the lives of their tenantry under this terrible visitation. The great sensation caused by the report of this reduction from the labour list, brought several members of the surrounding committees, and crowds of poor half-starved wretches, to Castlebar, our county town; and there was a general feeling of horror manifested at the conduct of the Government—so much so, that there was a general determination among the clergy, and the more humane members of the committees, to refuse lending themselves to a measure calculated, if not intended, to destroy the people. Eight hundred families in Killavalla—the tenantry partly of two noblemen and of a rich baronet—have been living during the last three months on the proceeds of their daily labour, averaging from 3s. to 4s. a week from each family, while meal sold at 3s. and 3s. 6d. the stone. Numbers have perished already from hunger and dysentery—hundreds are at this moment tottering on the brink of the grave. The whole country presents an appearance of a barren waste, deserted by its people—no cultivation. The people have no seed to sow, and have no food to support them, if they even had the seed; and the landlords look on with calm indifference at thousands of human beings, whom they have stripped of the last shilling, writhing in the agonies of hunger. Next week will be one of the most eventful weeks ever recorded in the annals of human suffering. The lives of thousands are in the scale, and oh! it is frightful to contemplate what the consequences may be, if Divine Providence does not come to the rescue of an oppressed and injured people."
Another corresponding note from Balla, on the 22nd inst., was to the following effect:—
"I hasten to inform you that the ukase has been rigidly enforced in this district. The poor who have been dismissed are loud in their complaints, and I have no hesitation in stating that they must inevitably starve, as they have no resources to fall back on for their support. The Government are acting in real or affected ignorance of the appalling destitution that prevails in this district. How truly has Dean Swift declared that 'we are in the condition of patients who have medicine sent them by doctors at a distance, strangers to their constitution and the nature of their disease.' These persons removed must perish, or live by plunder. I suppose the framers of this measure imagine that we have a substantial class of yeomen here, who might employ at tillage the persons who were put off the works. But, alas! we have no such men. The best part of the lands in this district belongs to absentee farmers,
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who employ none but the herd to take charge of the stock. The Government are already aware that the poor have no seed, and there is no disposition evinced to supply them with it. Is it not a melancholy fact to see the garden plots not even dug, which the poor would have done if they were able to purchase cabbage plants, which are sold at the exorbitant price of 1s. 10 d. per hundred. I should have informed you that the miseries of the poor who were thus peremptorily dismissed will know no bounds, as there is yet no provision for supplying them with food."
Another, writing from Kells, said—
"The order for disbanding the labourers has been carried into effect, and the people so dismissed crowded round the parochial house to-day, with tears streaming down their manly cheeks, and agony in their every look, asking what was to become of their now starving wives and children. Large grass farms surrounding us on every side, and the spring sowing being now nearly completed, no employment whatever was to be had. Such were their heart-rending exclamations—and no wonder—for in a week, if unrelieved, they and their families must certainly perish. As yet, no provision whatever has been made for their relief. I ask, in the name of a merciful Heaven, what is to become of our brave, and faithful, and industrious people?"
Another gentleman writing from Ballinagh, county Cavan, on the 21st instant, reported—
"The check clerks here have received instructions from the inspecting officer to have twenty per cent of the people employed at the relief works dismissed, and that on yesterday this order was carried into effect. This dismissal has created both alarm and confusion, for almost every person to be so dismissed is the occupier of only from four to five acres of land; and they are, without exception, in a much more destitute state than the common labourer, as they are subject to rent and other taxation. There has been no provision made for their support; and they will doubtlessly, by this dismissal, be reduced to utter starvation. They are still conducting themselves peaceably; but their murmurs, which they are endeavouring to suppress, denote the exasperation of their minds, and it is much to be feared will ere long explode like the pent-up volcano, in robberies and the destruction of property."
Another from Clones, county Monaghan—
"I have to announce the terrible fact that one-fifth of the least destitute of the labourers employed have been actually dismissed from the public works. Unfortunately, there is no immediate likelihood of their being employed in tillage. Except a few cases of housebreaking in the town of Clones, and some pillage through the county, no overt acts of tumult have yet appeared. The people, in fact, exhibit a patience too passive for praise. No provision has as yet been made for the dismissed, and there is none for the destitute except that which has long existed (a relief committee), that gives one pint of soup in the day to each person on their lists. From this small allowance a large number is altogether cut off."
The same state of things existed every

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where. Another gentleman from Limerick wrote:—
"Let it end as it may, it is only Providence alone can be thanked if mischief does not follow the unparalleled experiment of disemploying 141,000 hungry men. Generally speaking, we tremble for the result; they have not time as yet to come to any plan, being so detached from each other, as the farmers cannot employ them."
Such statements as those ought to command the serious attention of the Government. He feared the introduction of the clause suggested by hon. Gentlemen opposite to preclude from relief the occupiers of land, if it were only half an acre, would be productive of the most lamentable consequences. The accounts which were daily received from all parts of the country bore testimony to the wonderful patience of the people; but, at the same time, they expressed fears that if the Government did not speedily interfere, and afford relief, that outrages would become frequent, and that property would be no longer secure. Something ought to be done by the Government immediately. The food depôts in every district were filled; but the difficulties which attended the formation of relief committees under the temporary measure, were productive of so much delay that thousands would expire before the relief was extended. He understood that it was necessary to hold five meetings before those committees could be got into working order. If such were the case, ten days or a fortnight would elapse before even, in the most favoured districts, the temporary relief measures could be carried into practical effect. If they were dealing with an inanimate article of machinery, they might be able to form a correct calculation as to the length of time it would last; but they could not thus estimate the duration of human life. The people had literally no means of existence. He implored the Government to order the depôts to be opened and food to be distributed among them, before death in its most hideous shape carried off its victims wholesale. The statements of the Gentlemen in that House who represented those starving multitudes, were surely worthy of consideration at the hands of the Government. He felt convinced no Irish Member could be found to oppose his prayer when he implored the Government, in the name of the perishing people of Ireland, to act energetically, and at once to prevent that appalling annihilation of human life which inevitably would ensue unless relief were extended immediately.
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Thousands had died already—thousands must die before even that temporary relief could be extended; but once more he implored the Government to act at once to prevent the most fearful consequences to an entire people.
MR. SMITH O'BRIENcould confirm all that had fallen from the hon. Member. It was understood by hon. Members, on both sides, that the Government had given instructions that the greatest care should be taken that the people should not be discharged from the public works until other means had been provided to enable them to procure the means of subsistence. He believed that the greatest confusion would follow the putting in force the order for dismissing persons from the public works to come into operation on Saturday last. The Government ought instantly to put in force the Act for the constitution of relief committees. It was seven weeks since the Temporary Relief Bill passed through the other House, and he could not conceive why the relief committees had not been constituted. If the relief committees had been previously appointed, many of the people who now crowded the workhouses would have had something to fall back upon.
MR. LABOUCHEREcould assure the hon. Member for Kilkenny, that he agreed with him in the opinion, that however necessary it might be to reduce the number of persons employed on public works in Ireland, and to put an end, as speedily and quietly as possible, to the present system, yet that the greatest caution should be used in effecting any change. He had, on a former occasion, stated the plan laid down for the mode of proceeding by the Irish Government, viz., that on a certain day, not that twenty per cent of the people employed in every district on public works should be discharged, but that in the aggregate twenty per cent of all those at present employed should be put off, leaving it to the discretion of the Irish Government to decide upon the proportions to be removed from each district. It would be necessary and proper to make a general reduction; but the Irish Government was left to the exercise of its discretion in making the several reductions by districts, as the Executive in Ireland could best decide where it might be dangerous or improper to make any change, and when a change might be with propriety and safety made. That was the general answer he had to give to all quarters upon that sub-

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ject. But he could not sit down without referring to a circumstance which he felt the greatest gratification in stating to the House. It was the immense quantity of provisions that was pouring into the ports of Ireland, the result of private enterprise. He had been very much struck by reading an account, on the preceding day, in a Limerick newspaper, of the quantity of provisions brought into the single harbour of Limerick by the ordinary operation of trade. He had previously mentioned to the House a similar fact with regard to Cork. But the article to which he now alluded stated that—
"On taking a retrospective view of the imports into the port of Limerick since the pressure of scarcity in the local provision market became urgent, we find that the vessels arrived in port from the 1st of September last, landed over 50,000 tons of bread-stuffs of all sorts to this present week—an event without parallel in the records of our harbour. There were 150 sail of vessels in the Shannon on Monday last."
MR. SHAWquite concurred in the doctrine, that they could never have a sound state of society, or a wholesome condition of the labouring population in Ireland, until all the persons then employed in pauper labour were removed from that dependence; but still the transition would be difficult and full of danger to the suffering poor. He felt that no arbitrary rate of reduction, such as twenty per cent of those employed, could be safely applied; and he thought, practically, the regulation to be safe should be—not to discharge those poor people until some temporary means of relief, under the Temporary Relief Act passed that Session, should be provided for them.
SIR GEORGE GREYquite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman so far as referred to the stoppage of public works generally. But it would be found by reference to the instructions to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, that it was not intended that the relief works should be immediately discontinued. Some of the accounts received from Ireland stated that in some parts the landlords declined to advance money to their tenants for the purchase of seed, because they had not been paid the last year's rent. That, with the fear of the tenants, on the other hand, lest they should be called on for arrears, were the two causes which had been before alluded to, as preventing to a considerable extent the cultivation of the land. But it also appeared that the abstraction of labour from the tillage of land by the employment given by the Board of Works, operated so detrimentally, that many per-
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sons who were anxious to till their land could not obtain sufficient labour. The Government, therefore, thought it necessary to direct the putting off of some of the labourers from the relief works, feeling assured that there was now ample employment to be obtained in the country by those put off.
LORD G. BENTINCKsaid: Sir, I cannot allow the observations of the right hon. the Secretary of State for the Home Department to pass without some notice. The right hon. Gentleman told the House; that, although cultivation might be going on in some parts of Ireland, yet in other parts it was discontinued, and discontinued from causes over which the Government had no influence. The Earl of Besborough, in January last, wrote a letter to the First Lord of the Treasury urging him to supply the farmers in Ireland with seed, and stating that in many parts of the country it was not possible for them to obtain seed without assistance. Captain Wynne wrote to the same effect; and then the Government came down to this House on the first fortnight of the Session, and announced that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to advance 50,000 l. But now, at the eleventh hour, and after Her Majesty's Government have for a whole month given the people of Ireland reason to think they would receive assistance from the Government, you have disappointed them. I think Her Majesty's Government have exercised a most pernicious influence over the cultivation of the soil. There are hundreds of thousands of farmers in Ireland, who, when they heard that the Government were prepared to advance 50,000 l. for seed, and when they recollected that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had persuaded the Government to advance money—not for grass seeds, but for corn seeds—relied with confidence on receiving such a supply from the Government. But now, at the last hour, when it is too late for the farmers of Ireland to purchase seed with their own funds, the Chancellor of the Exchequer comes down to the House and tells the Irish people, from his place here, that the 50,000 l. is to be advanced, not for corn seed, but for green crop seed, of which the farmers will not be able to avail themselves till the summer time. I want to know whether, under these circumstances, Her Majesty's Government are not greatly to blame for the vacillating course which they have taken with regard to this matter of seed? There was an observation, too, of

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the right hon. the Chief Secretary for Ireland, which I cannot suffer to pass without notice. The right hon. Gentleman has glorified himself and the Government for allowing the people of Ireland to take care of themselves. He has told us that since the month of September, that is to say, in the course of six months or more, 50,000 tons of provisions have come into the ports of Limerick. Why, Sir, I recollect reading that in one week in the course of this year 30,000 quarters of grain went out of the port of Limerick. So that, after all, what did this importation of the 50,000 tons of provisions amount to? It might be true, that now provisions were imported by private speculators; but what compensation is this for the deaths of some 200,000 persons who have died of starvation or pestilence, while we have been waiting for this supply? If the Government had but one-tenth of the sympathy shown in Boston by the Americans for the starving people of Ireland, all this food might have been supplied at least six months ago. By the last return we were told that though the number of meal depôts had been diminished, yet in extent they had been increased, and that it was quite a mistake to argue that, because there were only twenty-four meal depôts now, where there were ninety-three when the Government came into office, that the amount of provisions distributed was in like manner diminished. I looked at the last return, and what did I find to be the amount of provisions distributed? On the week ending the 6th of March, the amount of meal distributed was 262,000 lbs.; or about 1,048,000 lbs. a month, not the eleventh part of the food distributed by the late Government in the month of June last, when the famine was not the ninth part of what it is now. I think, under these circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland has little cause to congratulate himself, especially when he reflects on the hundreds of thousands of persons who died under his administration of affairs in Ireland.
MR. WILLIAMSthought it most important, when such charges were made against the Government, that a weekly statement should be laid before the House of the number of persons employed on public works in Ireland, and at what cost to the Government, that the people of this country might distinctly understand what they had to pay for destitution in Ireland, and how little the gentry of that country did to relieve it. He called upon Irish
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gentlemen to take a lesson from the people of England in one of its poorest districts. He observed from a newspaper that had been sent to him, that in a small town in South Wales, where distress existed in consequence of the failure of the potato, oat, and barley crops, 3,000 l. had been subscribed in one week for the purchase of food, and an order sent to a great mercantile house for 1,000 quarters of corn. It was calculated that 24,000 quarters of corn would be required for the supply of that district, but no appeal was made to those unconnected with the locality; the magistrates and gentry of South Wales themselves took most prompt and effectual means to secure relief. Why had not similar exertions been made in Ireland?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERhoped the House would not be dragged into a general discussion, but would at once go into Committee, as it was most desirable that progress should be made with the Irish Poor Law. He did not rise to make any reply to the speech which the noble Lord had repeated with his old accusations. He would take no notice of the noble Lord's assertions; they had been refuted more than once. He would only remark, that the weekly return alluded to by the hon. Member for Coventry, had been made by the Government, and had been ordered to be printed; it was intended to continue those returns weekly.
COLONEL RAWDONthought the attack which had been made on the Government by the noble Lord the Member for Lynn most unnecessary. He particularly regretted that one in the noble Lord's position had disadvantageously contrasted the conduct of the Government with that of the people of the United States of America. He had representations from the county of Wicklow in which fears were expressed, that the public peace could not be maintained unless great caution were exercised in discharging the men now employed on the public works.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that as a general reply to such letters as that quoted by the hon. Member, he had seen a private letter from Colonel Jones, in which it was stated that the reduction of the numbers employed in various places on the public works had been effected quietly, and without any unpleasant results having followed. It was, of course, impossible to speak of particular districts, but generally the reduction had passed quietly off.
COLONEL RAWDONsaid, that the letter, which was from a noble Lord connected with the country, was at the service of the right hon. Gentleman, to whom he was ready to show it.
MAJOR LAYARDthought the attack made upon the Government most unjustifiable. As to the verdict agreed to some time ago, by a coroner's jury in Ireland, he thought that also most unjustifiable: but some allowance might be made in such a case for the feelings of people, excited by scenes of misery around them. But as to the attack made by the noble Lord, he should say, before the House and the country, when the Government had made every exertion to meet the state of distress, that the attack was most unjust and unjustifiable.
VISCOUNT SANDONwished to ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department. In consequence of the extraordinary influx of Irish paupers, great difficulty existed as to the machinery for removing Irish and Scotch immigrants. He spoke not with reference to the increased charge on the poor rates, but to the apprehended propagation of pestilence in the town he had the honour to represent. He wished to know if the right hon. Gentleman was prepared to suggest any plan by which greater ease of action should be given to the existing rule for pauper removals. When they came to deal with thousands and tens of thousands, the existing machinery would be found impracticable. Of course, there was great unwillingness to remove any parties unseasonably; they would be more at liberty to do so when provision was made for the relief of the poor in their own country. Perhaps some new arrangement might be made in the Committee on the Poor Law Bill.
SIR G. GREYhad received representations from Liverpool with reference to this subject. He did not think there was any general disposition to send back the Irish paupers until this Bill passed, changing very materially the right to relief in Ireland. The law with reference to orders for removal, ought to be made more efficient; but he did not think any provision for that purpose could well be introduced in Committee on this Bill. A Vagrants' Bill would be introduced, which would afford a more fitting opportunity for amending the existing machinery for removals.
MR. SHAWbegged to ask the right hon. Baronet, whether it was not true,
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that although a great number of paupers had arrived at Liverpool from Ireland, yet that a much larger number of the poor in and about Liverpool had presented themselves to the authorities, professing to be from Ireland, and seeking relief under that pretext, and that the Government had instituted an inquiry on the subject?
SIR G. GREYstated, that an investigation had taken place with reference to the number and description of Irish paupers in Liverpool. It was quite true that a certain number who had been resident there for some time, had come out of their ordinary dwelling-places and presented themselves in the streets of Liverpool as newly arrived from Ireland; but the representation he had received was, that 60,000 had arrived from Ireland within the year, of whom 20,000 came with the view of emigrating to America, while the other 40,000 either remained in Liverpool or were spread over Lancashire.
MR. NEWDEGATEwould take that opportunity of saying, that he thought the observations of the hon. Member for Carlow (Major Layard) on the noble Lord the Member for Lynn, were totally inapplicable and unjustly severe. The hon. Gentleman had seen that Members on that (the Opposition) side of the House were determined not to continue the discussion; and it was not consistent with fairness that he, under such circumstances, should have made those remarks.
MR. CARDWELLsaid, he had received a letter from a magistrate of Liverpool, in which he said—
"Of course no one can desire to remove the poor people without adequate provision being made for their sustenance at home. The influx of paupers continues, and for the last few days has exceeded 2,000 per diem. In a few days we shall have a new fever hospital, capable of receiving 400 additional patients."
He agreed that the proper time to remove the technical difficulties in the way of the removal of Irish immigrants would be when the Vagrancy Bill was before the House.
MR. P. SCROPEsaid, the account read by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) of the number of Irish immigrants was dated the 17th of February, and gave the number, up to that period, at 60,000; but as immigration was going on at this rate of 2,000 a day, the number that had reached Liverpool must be from 120,000 to 140,000. The Government were exerting themselves to the utmost to put an end to the terrible state of things in Ireland;

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and he hoped they would not waste their time by answering party attacks, which had been so repeatedly answered already.
MR. GROGANhoped, that when the Irish immigrants were returned to their own country, care would be taken that they would not be quartered on the inhabitants of Waterford, Wexford, Dublin, Belfast, and Drogheda, but be made chargeable to the districts from whence they emigrated. With respect to party attacks on the Government, he wished it to be borne in mind that the subject had been twice introduced by Gentlemen on the Government side of the House. It appeared that the Government could not control their own friends. A very large number of Gentlemen of all ranks had been appointed in Ireland, under the new commission, for relief committees, and he wished to know from what funds they were to be paid?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: By a vote of this House.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, the Vagrancy Bill had been prepared, and would be shortly brought before the House. With regard to the preservation of the public peace in Ireland, he had no fear whatever. The Government would be responsible for the public tranquillity. Colonel M'Gregor, who was at the head of the police, had no fear of a breach of the peace. Notwithstanding the great number of military and police required to escort provisions for the use of the destitute, he had no doubt of the public tranquillity being preserved.
MR. D. CALLAGHANsaid, there was a general complaint in Ireland of the neglect of the Government to furnish the farmers with seed, as had been promised. He could bear testimony to the fact that the people had not the means of sowing the ground.
MR. BELLEWthought the attacks made upon the Government, with respect to Ireland, were altogether uncalled for.
SIR A. BROOKEhoped the Government would not supply seed to the landlords of Ireland. He could only say, for himself, that he would rather sell the coat off his back than ask of Her Majesty's Government any favour to which he was not entitled; particularly at a time when Irish landlords were taunted, both in and out of doors, with asking favours. He thought the Government had done as much as Irish landlords had a right to expect; and he, for one, was grateful for what had been done.
MR. DILLON BROWNEsaid, the question was, whether the Government ought to supply the tenants with seed where the landlords neglected that duty. If they did not do that, they would have a great deal of the land of Ireland uncultivated; and the country, most probably, would display a repetition of the scene of Skibbereen next year, in consequence of the Government refusing to make a slight advance at this moment. He begged to state, that he had received accounts from every quarter in Mayo denying that a combination existed against sowing the land, as had been stated; and requesting him to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of Ireland to point out where such a state of things existed. On the contrary, the people were most desirous to cultivate the land, but they had not seed, and the majority of the landlords were either unable or unwilling to give them the seed.
SIR W. JAMES, as an independent Member of the House, would express his opinion, that the Government, upon the whole, in the difficult and arduous circumstances in which they had been placed, as far as effort, energy, and a sincere wish and desire to give relief to the famishing people went, though they might have erred, perhaps, rather on the side of generosity, had discharged their duty to the country conscientiously. With respect to giving seed to the people, he begged to ask the attention of the House to a letter, contained in the correspondence of the Board of Works, from Commander Fishbourne, who stated that a Mr. Mahon, in the county of Clare, had provided 800 stone of seed wheat for some of his tenants; but he found that they ate it: he then had some steeped in sulphate of iron, so that it could only be used for seed, and offered it to them, but they refused it: he then offered to take the land into his own hands and sow it for them, and pay them over the balance; but they refused that. This was surely a strong corroboration of the statement which the right hon. Secretary for Ireland had made.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, he merely rose to correct a misapprehension into which, as he thought, several hon. Members had fallen with respect to the observations made by the noble Lord near him, the Member for Lynn. Some hon. Members had attacked the noble Lord in no measured language, for having accused Her Majesty's Government of neglect and apathy in not having supplied the land-

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lords or the people of Ireland with seed. Now, as he understood the noble Lord, the matter of his complaint was quite different. He had complained, not that the Government had not supplied seed, but that they had held out the promise of doing so nearly two months ago, and then, on reconsideration, a short time ago, had felt themselves unable to fulfil the expectation which they had themselves created. He (Mr. Hamilton) would not say a word on any other subject; for he concurred with those who thought that their first duty was to go into Committee and dispose of the Bill; but, he would repeat, this was the charge made by the noble Lord, and it had not been answered.
Subject at an end.

THE NEW BISHOPS.
MR. J. COLLETTbegged to ask the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government, whether he did not intend to introduce four new bishops into the Bill, of which notice was on the Paper. He wished to know whether any such intention was in contemplation under the Bill, having the very modest title of "a Bill for Amending the several Acts for the Appointment of Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England."
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, it was his intention to bring in the Bill to which the hon. Member alluded on the first Tuesday after the holidays. In that Bill he was prepared to propose some alterations in the existing law; but it was not his intention to introduce four new bishops in that Bill, nor indeed one bishop.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL—COMMITTEE.
House in Committee on the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill. Mr. Greene in the chair.
On the 11th Clause being read,
MR. JOHN O'CONNELLmoved to omit the words that declared it expedient to increase the number of ex-officio guardians. He trusted he should be supported in this Amendment by those English Members whose object in passing this Bill was that of strongly and heartily making the property of Ireland support its paupers. He was not, as he said before, at all certain that the Bill would be effective; but he was still, under the circumstances of the country, willing that the experiment should be tried. He would put it to English Members whether there was not a
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striking inconsistency in bringing forward this clause at all. What was the reason assigned for the introduction of the Bill? Why, it had been stated in that House over and over again that this extended Poor Law Bill was necessary in the present crisis, because, as the House considered, a large portion of the landlords of Ireland would not do their duty by the poor unless forced by a system of compulsory taxation to do so. And yet what did they find? They were about handing over to the exclusive management of these gentlemen, whose conduct they impugned, the very matter in which they accused them of gross negligence. They told the Irish proprietors that they would compel them to feed the poor, but they provided no means of doing so. They said to them, "Your conduct has been very bad; you have been deficient in your duty towards the poor. You must suffer and be taxed for your conduct, but we shall leave the amount of that taxation to yourselves. You are to tax yourselves as much as you please, and no more." The ex-officio guardians formed a very large proportion of the present boards, being one-third of the entire; and the landlords had, besides, a plurality of votes, first as owners and then as occupiers, according to the scale laid down in the existing Act. They also exercised great influence under the system of proxy voting—a system that worked the greatest evils, and produced the greatest frauds in Ireland. It did no good, and there was no practical check on the party holding the proxy papers, who might be a person having no right of his own, and holding the proxies of parties that had no existence. Under this system the landlords had great influence over the farmers and labourers on their estates; and the party of the ex-officio guardians were thus able to obtain a large majority on the boards. To suppose that these men would give extensive relief, was to go against the experience of the past; and if they resolved to restrict the relief, there was absolutely no remedy against them. He did not think there had been any case made out for the clause. The property of the elected guardians was as dear to them as that of the ex-officios; and he thought some attempt ought to have been made to prove them guilty of wanton prodigality before their power was taken from them. There could be no doubt, however, but that they were more inclined to lend a humane ear to the wants of the poor than the ex-officio

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guardians. The hon. Gentleman read several extracts from letters, from the parish priest of Cootehill, the rev. Mr. Dillon, parish priest of Ballinasloe, the very rev. Dr. O'Rafferty, of Tullamore, and other Roman Catholic clergyman in Ireland, condemning the proposed increase of the ex-officio guardians in the strongest language, and alluding to particular acts of intolerance committed by them. He could, if he wished to detain the House, read many more extracts of a similar kind, and more particularly the resolutions of the meeting of clergymen from which the very rev. Dr. Collins and the rev. Mr. M'Carthy had been sent as a deputation to this country, and which were of the strongest kind against the proposed increase in the number of the ex-officio guardians. He next came to the most painful part of the subject, and one which he would endeavour to deal with as briefly and as lightly as possible. He meant the interference with the religious feelings of the paupers by the guardians. It appeared, by returns, which though not laid before Parliament, had been made with great care, that in all Ireland there were 2,600 Protestant magistrates, and only 410 Catholic magistrates. This disproportion was the more severely felt, as, strange to say, the borough magistrates, amongst whom chiefly were the Catholics, were not allowed to become ex-officio guardians. The Protestant ex-officio guardians of the counties interfered with and controlled the religious teaching of the Catholic pauper children; and that injustice would be necessarily much increased if this clause were; carried. In the North and South Dublin unions there had been very strong instances indeed of such interference; but he would not go into particulars unless required. He would only say, that in both the Dublin unions the Catholic chaplains and Catholic guardians unanimously protested against particular acts, declaring that if persevered in they would be religious grievances. The Protestant guardians unanimously voted in favour of these acts; and in consequence of the number of ex-officio guardians having the majority on the boards, they succeeded in inflicting the grievance in both cases. They were backed out, he regretted to say, by the Poor Law Commissioners: but in the North Dublin union the case was too flagrant, and the Commissioners, after endeavouring to make the Catholic guardians be silent, were forced to give way. In the case which occurred in the South Dublin union, and
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which took place only a few months ago, the Catholic guardians were treated with complete contempt by the Commissioners. He wished to say nothing against the Protestant members of these boards individually; but he had to accuse them of bigotry in the execution of their duty as guardians of the poor. As for the Catholics, all they claimed or desired was noninterference and perfect equality for each sect. The noble Lord at the head of the Government expressed his belief, that a better spirit was growing up among the different religious parties in Ireland, and hoped that this spirit would be soon fully realized. He would remind the noble Lord, however, of what happened in that House. An Irish party was formed at the commencement of the Session, and it was hoped that at last both parties began to see they had been made the tools of others, and that their country suffered in consequence. It was supposed that they were united on the principle of some little degree of mutual concession being made. The Catholic members of that party did make such concession. Up to this hour there had not been on their part a single call made to the House to look into the exuberant and overgrown revenues of the Established Church, notwithstanding that they were in a time of national calamity, when even the imperial revenues were threatened to be drained, and when every person possessing any species of property in Ireland would soon feel, if they had not already felt, the strain that was put upon them. Nothing could be more proper than if they called upon the House at once to originate some plan by which the Church of a small minority in Ireland should have its surplus revenues made applicable to the wants of the country; but under all the circumstances they did not do so—they remained completely silent on the subject. But was there any similar concession made by hon. Members from Ireland sitting opposite? He alluded to this subject merely to make the House aware of the spirit that existed among the class to which the ex-officio guardians belonged. A Bill had been proposed to repeal a few empty words—to repeal words which were not only confessed to be empty and useless, but which, it was admitted, the present state of society would not endure to give them any practical effect whatever. They were only valuable as a means of insulting the Catholics. They were avowed to be a mere brutum fulmen, which could not be acted

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upon; and the Catholic Members were watching to see what would be done in that case. It was quite possible for the Irish Members on the other side of the House to have stayed away when the discussion took place on that Bill. But they could not do so. The habit of intolerance was too deeply rooted within them to let them relinquish the chance of keeping up this wretched miserable shred of bigotry against their Catholic countrymen, and they accordingly came and spoke and voted against it. And yet these were the men to whom the House was about giving a power of interference with the Catholic chaplains and the Catholic pauper children of the workhouses in Ireland. They talked of happy times coming; but he asked them to look at the conduct of men of high character and of education, and occupying a foremost place in every social relation of life; but who, when touched on the point of their old ascendancy prejudices, at once become intolerant and inclined to act with tyranny. The Catholics were a very small minority in that House, and they could expect but very little response to any Catholic feeling. In that House, where Protestant feelings and—he did not use the word offensively — Protestant prejudices prevailed, the Catholics had very little, hope of his Amendment being carried. But still they would make an appeal to English Members on this question. They would tell them fairly and frankly that the Irish Catholics could not submit to it. If they passed this clause, they would permit the Protestant guardians to tyrannise over Catholic pauper children. They would thus give a signal for the commencement of a religious agitation such as had not yet been witnessed in that unfortunate country; and he could tell the House that the Catholic Members would feel bound to make it an effective agitation. By passing the Bill with this clause, provision would be made for religious intolerance and persecution, and for the exercise of ascendancy in its most cruel form against those classes of the people who could not help themselves; the seeds would be sown, and the foundations laid, of a most miserable and bitter agitation, which it sickened the soul to think of. He therefore called upon every friend of peace between men of different religions—upon every person who hated dissensions upon subjects too sacred for dissension, to vote for the Amendment which he proposed.
SIR G. GREYwished to express, on
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the part of the Government, and on his own part, his entire concurrence with the opinion the hon. Member for Kilkenny had expressed, that in thus providing a measure of relief for Irish poverty, the rights of conscience should be respected, and every reasonable precaution should be taken against the infringement of those rights. In proposing this clause, the Government never dreamt that it would have the effect ascribed to it by the hon. Gentleman. He deeply regretted that the introduction of it had occasioned any discussion involving religious considerations. Not that he blamed the hon. Gentleman; he respected the warmth of the hon. Gentleman's feeling on behalf of the Church to which he belonged; and he agreed with the hon. Gentleman that every proper precaution should be taken to prevent the members of that Church, whilst receiving the funds provided for relief under this Bill, being subject to any infringement of their religious liberty. But the Government thought, that whatever objection might be entertained to the existing arrangement in respect to religious differences, it would be to a certain degree diminished by this clause. The hon. Gentleman had rested his objection to the clause upon the religious part of the question. With regard to that part of it, the hon. Gentleman drew his inferences, as to the probable working of this clause, from the actual state of things in Ireland at the present moment. He said, that all the magistrates, speaking in general terms, who were now ex-officio guardians, were Protestants; and that the consequence was, that tyranny was exercised over the minds and consciences of the inmates of the workhouses, if they were Roman Catholics, by the influence of those magistrates. The Government had certainly thought that in proposing the alteration embodied in this clause, far less opportunity would be afforded for the exercise of any religious feeling of the kind. By a return which had been laid before the House, it appeared that in a great majority of cases the effect of this clause would be to let in the whole of the justices resident in the union, who, without the possibility of any exercise of religious feeling, be they Protestant or Roman Catholic, would immediately become ex-officio members of the board. In all those cases where the present objection existed of a partial selection of magistrates as ex-officio guardians, it would be put an end to by this clause, as all, whether Roman Catholics or Pro-

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testants, would be ex-officio members of that board. In England it was quite true, that all justices resident in any union became ex-officio guardians; and it was thought that when it was proposed to add a great burden to property in Ireland, there should also be an increase in the representation of the property in the boards of guardians. That was the motive with which this clause was proposed; and he must remind the House that a much larger portion of the rate fell upon property in Ireland than was the case in England. In England the occupier paid the whole of the rate, though there was not much difference in the end, because, by arrangement, it came ultimately to be paid by the landlord. But in Ireland the liability was, in the first instance, thrown exclusively upon the landlords in the case of tenements rated under 4l. per annum; and in all cases above 4l. the landlord was, in the first instance, in some cases liable to half, and in many cases to considerably more. Now, looking to the increased amount of the rate likely to be paid by the operation of this Bill, it was thought proper that there should be an increased representation of property in the boards of guardians; and when the Government came to consider the extent to which that should go, they thought of a small increase only, similar to that which was proposed in 1843; but that proposal was not accompanied by any such measure as this Poor Law Bill; and they thought also that it would, in connexion with that Bill, be open to the objection that there would still be the power of selection, and that that selection might be partially exercised, and might have been attended with those prejudicial results which the hon. Gentleman anticipated from the clause as it now stood. It was impossible to meet such objections as the hon. Gentleman had urged against the clause, by exactly balancing the number of Roman Catholic and Protestant magistrates; but he thought that Clauses 48 and 49 of the present Act had made special provisions with regard to this subject, of which the hon. Gentleman could not complain, and which, at the same time, showed the intention of the Government to guard against any interference with the religious liberty of the inmates of workhouses. He sincerely trusted that the clause would not be productive of the results stated by the hon. Gentleman; but if there should be any real and well-founded apprehension of that kind, he thought it would be better met by a
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direct provision in the law, than by any indirect mode to limit the number of ex-officio guardians.
MR. SHAWearnestly deprecated any party, or personal, or acrimonious spirit being introduced by Irish Members into that debate. The feeling in England and in that House was sufficiently hostile towards them in respect of that Bill to make them stand by each other, or at all events differ—for independent men of course must differ on many of the questions that came before them, but differ—without any personal animosity, as he and his hon. Friend near him, the Member for Limerick (Mr. Smith O'Brien), did; differing on that clause, and indeed on most political subjects toto cœlo. It had been the bane and curse of their country that they had always been played off against each other, sect against sect, and party against party—and, for God's sake, let it not then be class against class. What else had kept them and their country down, but a want of that self-reliance and mutual independent respect which had too much characterized all classes of their countrymen, and made them on each side a sort of tacitly consenting parties to a system of Irish inferiority which had been acted on to such an extent that, up to the accession of the present Government, it was almost assumed that Irishmen were unfit for the government, and incapable of filling the highest offices of their own country? So, with regard to landlord and tenant—to the higher and to the lower classes—he knew of no separate interests that should divide them. In his heart he believed that their real interests, when well understood and comprehensively viewed, were identical, and that they must stand or fall together. He would endeavour to state his reasons for suppporting that clause, and his own Amendment going somewhat beyond it, in a mere business-like manner, without offence to any class or person. First, then, he thought that the existing boards of guardians had not attended exclusively as they should have done to matters of business, but had entertained political questions upon the repeal of the Union, and topics of that nature; and that there was not that large class of substantial farmers in Ireland that there was in England, from whom a board of guardians could be elected. He felt, moreover, that as that Bill would impose a large additional burden on property, it was but just that property should be represented at the board more fully

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than it had been; and a number of well-educated men would be secured for the administration of the affairs of the union. The hon. Member complained of the proportion that Protestants bore to Roman Catholics in the magistracy. He was sorry that the hon. Gentleman had made any such reference to religious distinctions; but as the hon. Gentleman had, he must answer, that the proportion was as nearly as possible the same as their relative property and numbers in that rank of life from which the magistrates were taken. Then as to the case of religious persecution at the South Dublin union, upon which the hon. Member relied—it really amounted to nothing more than the removal of one Roman Catholic schoolmistress, who had charge of the Roman Catholic children in the school of the workhouse, as she was thought incompetent for the duties of a schoolmistress—and another Roman Catholic mistress being appointed in her stead. He regretted that the hon. Member had spoken of what he called the exuberant revenues of the Established Church, for at any time they afforded scarcely a decent maintenance to the clergy of the Church; but during the present calamity in Ireland, he might safely say, that a sum equal at least to the whole of those revenues had been voluntarily devoted by the hands of the clergy of the Established Church to the sufferings of the poor, who were principally Roman Catholic. Then the hon. Gentleman upbraided the Irish Members on his side of the House, for their bigoted conduct that Session on the Bill of the hon. Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson). Now, he believed he was the only Irish Member on that side who had spoken on the Bill, and his was not a very bigoted speech; for all he had said was that he did not desire to disturb the settlement of the Roman Catholic question which had been made in 1829; that the rest of the Bill was unimportant, and the essential part of it that which went to unsettle that question, by the repeal of the securities which had, in 1829, been conceded to the Protestant supporters of the measure; and that, therefore, he opposed the Bill of the hon. Member for Kinsale (Mr. Watson). He thought the speech of the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary rather in favour of his (Mr. Shaw's) proposal that all the magistrates should be ex-officio guardians, than of the Government proposal, that there should be a number
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elected by the whole body equal to the elective guardians, as in his plan there would be no opportunity of a partial or party selection; but as, from the return laid upon the Table of the House, it appeared that in 118 out of the 130 unions, the magistrates were not equal in number to the elected guardians, he did not think the difference between the proposal of the Government and Iris own of sufficient importance to justify him in dividing the House upon it, and he would leave the matter in the hands of the Government.
MR. BELLEWobserved, that several hon. Members expressed apprehensions with respect to the working of the Bill. Now, he entertained an entirely different view of the subject, for he had always been in favour of a Poor Law for Ireland, and he should strongly oppose anything which threw difficulties in the way of making an adequate provision for its pauper population. The House had that day heard a statement from the Secretary of State for the Home Department; and he could not help saying he did not think that that right hon. Gentleman had succeeded in making out the case which he sought to establish. Any one acquainted with Ireland, and taking an impartial view of the condition of that country, would feel that the Irish landlord had at present quite enough of influence. He greatly regretted that religious feeling had entered so much into the present discussion. The introduction of religion into proceedings of this nature opened a door to the renewal of scenes which he hoped had been closed for ever. He could not see how any other but party and religious questions would arise, where property was all on one side, and the population on the other. There were 2,600 Protestant magistrates on the one hand, and only 400 Roman Catholics upon the other, so that the Roman Catholics could have no more than one-sixth of the ex-officio guardians. There was, therefore, a decided preponderance in favour of one religion over the other. He hoped that the Government would take measures to prevent, as far as possible, the exhibition of any feelings of religious animosity in the operations of the Act.
SIR JOHN WALSHwas desirous of making a few observations upon the Bill, as an English Member, though somewhat connected with Ireland, and the sincere advocate of religious toleration towards our Roman Catholic fellow-subjects in Ireland. As such he much regretted the tone that

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had been adopted by some hon. Members in speaking of this clause. If the opinions expressed by hon. Members as to the extent of religious animosities in Ireland were borne out by the facts, they would lead to the conclusion that they must despair of effecting the social improvement of Ireland. If religious dissensions prevailed to such an extent in Ireland as to affect the whole constitution of society, and affect it in such a manner that no question could be entertained without the subject of differences between Protestants and Catholics being raised, that would be a bar to all improvement whatever. The question to which this clause referred was an economic and civil question, and the religious question could not by possibility be raised unless as a collateral question, and by implication; and yet it was said that it would be impossible for Catholics and Protestants to meet on the same board for the purpose of carrying out its provisions, without the introduction of religious dissensions and animosities. He should deeply regret the existence of such feelings; but if they prevailed, it would not be advisable or wise for the Legislature to recognise them in its acts. The Legislature had already removed religious disabilities, and they ought not to do anything by their public acts which would tend to keep alive the feelings of animosity to which those disabilities gave rise. It had been assumed in the discussion of this clause, that the landlords of Ireland were in a position of antagonism to the people; but that was a principle which, in legislating for Ireland, he was not inclined to recognise, for it was calculated, if acted upon, to be highly injurious to a measure containing a principle of self-government that required a great deal of harmony and good feeling, in order that it might be effectually carried into operation. With regard to the attendance of ex-officio guardians, he could state that in England they were men of such station, intelligence, and respectability as to be placed beyond the suspicion of any unworthy motives, and were looked upon as most efficient in carrying the poor law into effect; and if that were the case in England, he thought that their attendance in Ireland must be attended with similar results, inasmuch as the Irish elected guardians were chosen from a lower class than those of England, and did not generally possess the same position and intelligence as the elected guardians of England, and therefore they would more require the co-operation of the
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intelligence of the ex-officio guardians. He thought that a Bill which would repudiate and ostracise the landed gentry of Ireland, and prevent them from taking a part in the administration of the business of the country, would be a very great misfortune. If it were said that there already existed too great a desire on the part of the Irish landlords to reside out of that country, would not an Act which would deprive them of the opportunity of administering the affairs of Ireland—a duty which naturally belonged to them—have a tendency to increase that desire to reside out of the country? He supported the clause because he believed that it would be impossible that the Bill could work well if the gentry of Ireland were not allowed their proper share in administering it.
MR. SHARMAN CRAWFORDsaid, the question for them to consider was, whether the landed proprietors of Ireland, from their conduct in past and present times, possessed a claim on the people of Ireland and on the Legislature for a greater amount of influence on the boards of guardians than that which they enjoyed under the existing law. He spoke of the landlords of Ireland as a class, for he was ready to admit that there were many amongst them who discharged their duties in a manner that reflected credit upon them. As a class, then, he would ask what claim had the landlords of Ireland for this increased influence on the boards of guardians? He was an Irish landlord, and he had felt it his duty on a late occasion to introduce a resolution to that House, which resolution contained the assertion that the main evils which affected the people of Ireland were caused by the manner in which the relations of landlord and tenant were treated by the proprietors of landed property in Ireland; and he proceeded, in introducing the resolution, to argue that the grievances under which Ireland suffered were caused by the existing relations of landlord and tenant; and if hon. Members would refer to all the evidence which had been given before the House on the subject of the relations of landlord and tenant in Ireland, they would find that his view was borne out. He thought that the protest which was promulgated by a great number of the landlords of Ireland, was well calculated to enable the House to judge whether they were fit to carry out the objects of this Bill, and whether it would tend to carry the objects of this measure into operation if the Legislature increased the influence of the

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landlords of Ireland upon boards of guardians. The Labour-rate Act had failed because the landlords of Ireland had not carried out its provisions as they ought; and he would add, that if they had acted properly in carrying out that measure, it would have proved to have been a serviceable instead of an injurious measure for Ireland. The magistrates of Ireland were allowed to investigate the nature of the presentments that were made; but they did not act as they should have done in many of those presentments, and instead of selecting those which were best, they yielded to popular clamour. He would state another circumstance which would enable the House to form a judgment as to the claims of the landlords for a greater share of influence on the boards of guardians, namely, that it appeared from the information which he had been enabled to obtain from various sources, that the most difficult rates to collect in Ireland were those for which the landed proprietors were responsible. It was found much more easy to collect rates from the poor man than from the landlord. He repeated, therefore, that, as a class, the landlords of Ireland had no claim to come before the House, and before the people of Ireland, and ask for greater influence on the boards of guardians than that which they already possessed—to ask for greater control in carrying out this Act. The tenants of Ireland were now very poor; they had been racked out by the landlords, who had drawn the heart's blood from the people by obtaining extortionate rents, and all this had been caused by the want of proper management on the part of the landlords of the relations between landlord and tenant. All the landlords who showed themselves deserving of being-elected guardians would be elected, and thus they would be enabled to carry out the provisions of the poor law in a more efficient manner than if they were appointed ex-officio guardians. It would therefore be a wiser course to rely on the good sense and good feeling of the people for electing those landlords who had properly discharged their duties, than to adopt a provision for placing them on the boards of guardians as ex-officio members.
MR. SMITH O'BRIENdid not think that any grounds had been shown by the right hon. Gentleman opposite for the change which was proposed by this clause. He was not surprised that hon. Gentlemen near him (on the Opposition benches) should support the proposition for this in-
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crease of ex-officio guardians; but it was somewhat strange that the right hon. Gentleman opposite should volunteer this concession to the Conservative party. It had been assumed, that the proposition for the increase of ex-officio guardians had emanated from the Irish Party; and it was only fair to them to state that it had not emanated from any such source. It had emanated from the Whig Government, and was a concession to the Conservative feelings and tendencies of that House. No arguments had been brought forward to show that the landlords of Ireland had not been properly and fairly represented on the boards of guardians; and on the contrary, he thought it fully appeared that the landlords possessed their fair and just amount of influence on these boards. It was said, that this would make the proportion of ex-officio guardians to be elected assimilate to the proportion which were members of the boards in England; but it was his opinion, that if the subject were inquired into with, sufficient attention, it would appear that the ex-officio guardians in England were no more than one-third of the whole. He thought it would be a great mistake on the part of the landlords of Ireland to accept this provision, inasmuch as they ought to rely on the goodwill and good feeling of the people to elect them.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, they had been often told that it was their duty to endeavour to assimilate the laws of Ireland with those of England. Now, the proposition under discussion was no concession to any party or class, but an assimilation of the law of Ireland, as far as practicable, to the English law. That law worked remarkably well, and in many parts of England could not be carried out without the presence of a great number of ex-officio guardians, the occupations of the elected guardians leaving them but little leisure to attend to its administration. The right hon. Member for the University of Dublin had called upon the Government to extend the principle to the whole body of magistrates; but he apprehended that they had gone as far in its application as the circumstances of Ireland would permit, in some parts of which the number of magistrates would be found, under the right hon. Gentleman's plan, to exceed that of the elected guardians to an extraordinary degree.
MR. DILLON BROWNEsaid, the hon. Member for Limerick had described this

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clause as a concession. He would tell him to whom it was a concession. It was a concession to that party with whom the hon. Member was so strangely allied; a concession to the landlords of Ireland for the purpose of conciliating them in a place where they possessed some influence. He opposed the clause because it gave a weight to the landlords calculated to outbalance the great electoral principle. He could conceive nothing so well calculated to make both the Bill and the Government unpopular in Ireland; and had such a proposition been introduced by the noble Lord the Member for Lynn, it would have been laughed out of the House. The landlords of Ireland, generally speaking, were influenced by a bitter hostility towards the Roman Catholics; and the same influences would be manifested in the carrying out of this Bill if they were appointed ex-officio guardians. He gave the noble Lord great credit for the manner in which he treated the deputation that waited upon him on this subject. He wished, however, that the noble Lord had taken some of the advice that was then offered to him, and taken measures to have the Church property of Ireland restored to its original owners. If this course had been taken, there would be no necessity whatever for any poor law in the country. If they left the matter as it was, there would be a sufficient number of magistrates in the board of guardians; but if they increased them in the manner proposed, they would destroy all the good effects that were likely to arise from such a measure.
MR. FITZGERALDsaid, the landlords of Ireland were remarkable for their bigotry and intolerance towards the Roman Catholics, and this clause would encourage and strengthen those feelings. He would ask those who were in favour of the clause, whether they would not be influenced by religious feelings? The Irish Party had been spoken of—what had been the acts of the Irish Party? The only acts he knew of which had emanated from the Irish Party were the resolutions he (Mr. Fitzgerald) had signed. Let the Government adopt the suggestion which had been made to it—of restoring to the people of Ireland the Church property; let that property be applied to its original uses; and there would be no occasion to pass a poor law; there would then be sufficient for the education of the people without any Maynooth grant. The clause under discussion would give great power to the magistrates and land-
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lords of Ireland. Hitherto, there had been the greatest harmony between the magistrates and the boards of guardians. If this clause should pass, religious animosities would be renewed with greater bitterness than ever. If the law were left as at present, there would be a sufficient number of persons for boards of guardians, and the influence of the boards would be for the good of the country; whereas the addition of ex-officio guardians would destroy all beneficial influence there.
MR. LEFROYwas satisfied with the clause as it had been introduced by Her Majesty's Government. The right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department had given most important and convincing reasons for the introduction of a certain number of magistrates. With respect to what the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Fitzgerald) had said of the danger that religious bitterness might be renewed, it was the object of both sides of the House to get rid of religious differences in Ireland. He thought Her Majesty's Government were justified in introducing and maintaining the clause, not only for the protection of the rights of property, but in order to secure the Bill's being carried out beneficially. For these reasons he should support Her Majesty's Government.
MR. CALLAGHANsaid, the magistrates of Ireland were not, generally speaking, persons who should be entrusted with extraordinary powers; and he hoped the noble Lord would not insist upon a greater number of ex-officio guardians than existed at present. The average number of magistrates in the poor-law unions in England was not more than six or seven; but there was in Ireland a much greater number, say thirty-five or thirty-seven magistrates in some unions, who would exercise an influence anything but beneficial at the board. The present clause, if carried, would bring the Government into general contempt. He would support the Amendment.
MR. V. STUARTdid not doubt the integrity or competence of the persons proposed to be made ex-officio guardians, yet as it was adverse to the wishes of the people that they should be appointed, and as their nomination would render the law less efficient, he should resist the clause, and support the Amendment.
MAJOR LAYARDwas strongly persuaded that such a clause would effectually prevent the well-working of the whole

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measure. In three whole counties there was not a single Roman Catholic magistrate, so that what was now proposed could never give satisfaction to the great majority of the inhabitants of Ireland. The clause to which he had objected, had not been originally inserted in the Bill; it was brought in to meet the wishes of an individual, and would be the Chandos clause of the Bill, as there was a Chandos Clause in the Reform Act. It would never be viewed with a favourable eye by the people of Ireland.
MR. STAFFORD O'BRIENsupported the clause, as he said, not upon Conservative principles, or in reference to the due representation of property, but because he was convinced that if the lower orders in Ireland could be polled, it would be found that the majority were in favour of having their affairs managed by gentlemen, and not by elective guardians.
MR. ESCOTTurged that it was not fit to make boards of guardians in Ireland non-elective. He was surprised at this endeavour to impose boards of guardians upon the people.
The Committee divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause:—Ayes 154; Noes 26: Majority 128.

List of the AYES.

Acheson, Visct.

Corry, rt. hon. H.

Adderley, C. B.

Courtenay, Lord

Ainsworth, P.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Archbold, R.

Craig, W. G.

Arkwright, G.

Cripps, W.

Austen, Col.

Damer, hon. Col.

Baillie, H. J.

Deedes, W.

Baine, W.

Denison, J. E.

Baring, rt. hon. F. T.

Dickinson, F. H.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Disraeli, B.

Beresford, Major

Douglas, Sir H.

Berkeley, hon. C.

Douglas, J. D. S.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Duff, J.

Berkeley, hon. H. F.

Duncan, G.

Bodkin, J. J.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Botfield, B.

Dundas, Adm.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Dundas, F.

Bowring, Dr.

Dundas, Sir D.

Broadwood, H.

Dundas, hon. J. C.

Brooke, Sir A. B.

Ellice, rt. hon. E.

Brotherton, J.

Ellice, E.

Buck, L. W.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Buller, C.

Finch, G.

Bunbury, W. M.

Fitzmaurice, hon. W.

Busfeild, W.

Fitzwilliam, hon. G. W.

Carew, hon. R. S.

Forster, M.

Carew, W. H. P.

Fox, C. R.

Cavendish, hon. C. C.

Fuller, A. E.

Chandos, Marq. of

Gaskell, J. M.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Gore, W. R. O.

Clay, Sir W.

Gore, hon. R.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Gregory, W. H.

Cole, hon. H. A.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Grimsditch, T.

404

Grogan, E.

Newdegate, C. N.

Hamilton, G. A.

Northland, Visct.

Hamilton, W. J.

O'Brien, A. S.

Hastie, A.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Hawes, B.

Owen, Sir J.

Henley, J. W.

Parker, J.

Hobhousc, rt. hn. Sir J.

Pattison, J.

Hodgson, F.

Philipps, Sir R. B. P.

Hodgson, R.

Plumridge, Capt.

Holmes, hon. W. A.

Polhill, F.

Hornby, J.

Reid, Col.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Repton, G. W. J.

Howard, hon. E. G. G.

Rich, H.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Romilly, J.

James, W.

Ross, D. R.

James, Sir W. C.

Russell, Lord J.

Jervis, Sir J.

Sandon, Visct.

Jocelyn, Visct.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Johnstone, Sir J.

Sheppard, T.

Johnstone, H.

Shirley, E. J.

Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.

Somerset, Lord G.

Kemble, H.

Spooner, R.

Ker, D. S.

Stanley, hon. W. O.

Kirk, P.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Staunton, Sir G. T.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Stuart, Lord J.

Lefroy, A.

Strutt, rt. hon. E.

Liddell, hon. H. T.

Tancred, H. W.

Lincoln, Earl of

Thornely, T.

Lindsay, Col.

Tollemache, J.

Loch, J.

Towneley, J.

Macaulay, rt. hon. T. B.

Trotter, J.

Manners, Lord J.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

March, Earl of

Vane, Lord H.

Marjoribanks, S.

Vesey, hon. T.

Matheson, J.

Wall, C. B.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Walsh, Sir J. B.

Maxwell, hon. J. P.

Ward, H. G.

Meynell, Capt.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Milnes, R. M.

Wortley, hon. J. S.

Monahan, J. H.

Young, J.

Morpeth, Visct.

Morris, D.

TELLERS.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Hill, Lord M.

Mundy, E. M.

Tufnell, H.

List of the NOES.

Browne, R. D.

Macnamara, Maj.

Callaghan, D.

M'Carthy, A.

Collett, J.

Napier, Sir C.

Crawford, W. S.

O'Brien, W. S.

Dennistoun, J.

O'Connell, M. J.

Escott, B.

Pechell, Capt.

Evans, Sir De L.

Rawdon, Col.

Ewart, W.

Scrope, G. P.

Fielden, J.

Stuart, W. V.

Fitzgerald, R. A.

Wawn, J. T.

Hall, Sir B.

Williams, W.

Hindley, C.

Howard, P. H.

TELLERS.

Lawless, hon. C.

Bellew, R. M.

Layard, Maj.

O'Connell, J.

MR. JOHN O'CONNELLmoved that the words "whether for the county or the borough" should be added to the words "justices of the peace" in the clause, so as to make borough justices ex-officio guardians.
SIR G. GREYobjected to the Amendment as likely to lead to inconvenience, without any corresponding advantages.
Mr. P. HOWARDstrongly advised the Government to consent to the admission of the borough magistrates, so that they might form part of the board. He thought that the elective principle ought to be allowed a little more scope than was given to it.
Amendment withdrawn.
Upon the question that the Clause stand part of the Bill,
MR. JOHN O'CONNELLsaid, that in order that the public might know who the parties were who were sincerely in favour of a poor law, and those who only pretended to be so, he should divide the Committee against the Clause.
The Committee divided:—Ayes 133; Noes 21: Majority 112.

List of the AYES.

Acheson, Visct.

Gaskell, J. M.

Adderley, C. B.

Gladstone, Capt.

Ainsworth, P.

Gore, W. R. O.

Archbold, R.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Arkwright, G.

Grimsditch, T.

Baine, W.

Grogan, E.

Baring, rt. hon. F. T.

Hamilton, G. A.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Hamilton, W. J.

Beresford, Maj.

Hastie, A.

Berkeley, hon. C.

Hawes, B.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Hindley, C.

Bodkin, J. J.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Botfield, B.

Hodgson, F.

Bowring, Dr.

Hodgson, R.

Broadwood, H.

Holmes, hon. W. A.

Brooke, Sir A. B.

Hornby, J.

Brotherton, J.

Howard, hon. C. W. G.

Bruen, Col.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Buck, L. W.

James, W.

Buller, C.

James, Sir W. C.

Bunbury, W. M.

Jervis, Sir J.

Busfeild, W.

Jocelyn, Visct.

Carew, W. H. P.

Johnstone, Sir J.

Chandos, Marq. of

Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

Kemble, H.

Clay, Sir W.

Ker, D. S.

Cole, hon. H. A.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Coote, Sir C. H.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Corry, rt. hon. H.

Lefroy, A.

Courtenay, Lord

Le Marchant, Sir D.

Cowper, hon. W. F.

Lindsay, Col.

Craig, W. G.

Loch, J.

Cripps, W.

M'Donnell, J. M.

Dalmeny, Lord

Mangles, R. D.

Deedes, W.

Manners, Lord J.

Denison, J. E.

March, Earl of

Dickinson, F. H.

Marjoribanks, S.

Dodd, G.

Matheson, J.

Douglas, Sir H.

Maule, rt. hon. F.

Duncan, G.

Meynell, Capt.

Duncannon, Visct.

Milnes, R. M.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Monahan, J. H.

Dundas, Adm.

Morris, D.

Dundas, Sir D.

Mostyn, hon. E. M. L.

Evans, W.

Mundy, E. M.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Neville, R.

Finch, G.

Newdegate, C. N.

Fox, C. R.

O'Brien, A. S.

Fuller, A. E.

O'Conor Don

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Ogle, S. C. H.

Spooner, R.

Owen, Sir J.

Stanley, hon. W. O.

Packe, C. W.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Parker, J.

Stuart, Lord J.

Pattison, J.

Strutt, rt. hon. E.

Philipps, Sir R. B. P.

Tancred, H. W.

Plumridge, Capt.

Thornely, T.

Polhill, F.

Trotter, J.

Reid, Col.

Vane, Lord H.

Rendlesham, Lord

Vesey, hon. T.

Repton, G. W. J.

Villiers, Visct.

Romilly, J.

Walsh, Sir J. B.

Ross, D. R.

Ward, H. G.

Russell, Lord J.

Wood, rt. hon. Sir C.

Sandon, Visct.

Wortley, hon. J. S.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Wyse, T.

Sheppard, T.

Shirley, E. P.

TELLERS.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Hill, Lord M.

Somerset, Lord G.

Tufnell, H.

List of the NOES.

Bellew, R. M.

M'Carthy, A.

Bright, J.

O'Brien, C.

Callaghan, D.

O'Connell, M. J.

Crawford, W. S.

Perfect, R.

Escott, B.

Rawdon, Col.

Evans, Sir De L.

Scrope, G. P.

Ewart, W.

Stuart, W. V.

Fielden, J.

Wawn, J. T.

Gisborne, T.

Howard, P. H.

TELLERS.

Lawless, hon. C.

O'Brien, W. S.

Layard, Maj.

O'Connell, J.

On the 12th Clause, which enables the Poor Law Commissioners to dissolve a board of guardians, on default, without any intermediate election, being proposed,
MR. R. VERNON SMITHsuggested that words should be inserted, giving the Commissioners power to impose a penalty on boards of guardians, if the amount of arrears of rates was not collected within three calendar months after they became due. Under the 78th section of the Act 1 and 2 Victoria, it was declared that it should be lawful for the board of guardians to distrain for arrears of poor rate. He did not know whether the word "lawful" meant "discretionary" or "compulsory" in the Act, and there was no such provision at all in the present Bill. He should be glad, therefore, to hear from his right hon. Friend whether, in his opinion, penalties were leviable on boards of guardians who neglected to obey the orders of the Poor Law Commissioners, and collect the arrears of rates. If not, he should move an Amendment, to the effect that if the guardians neglected to levy within three calendar months, it should be lawful for the Commissioners to direct the guardians to proceed to levy the rates, and in case they did not do so, then they should be liable to

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a penalty. An enormous amount of arrears remained uncollected, although they were leviable by law, in those very districts in which the people were starving.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the object of the clause was to enable the Poor Law Commissioners to dispense with the necessity of waiting till a fresh election of guardians could be made, in case a board of guardians neglected their duties. He did not apprehend that the Commissioners had any summary power of directing the guardians to do certain acts, and enforcing a penalty in case of default. They could only direct the guardians to take proper steps to levy the arrears due, and the guardians might issue directions to the collector. If they were then unable to collect it, the matter would not be advanced one step further. One word as to the large amount of rates outstanding. His right hon. Friend seemed to think that a vast amount of rates were in arrear; but he (Sir G. Grey) apprehended, that as the collection of the rate was necessarily spread over a number of weeks, there would always appear, on the mere production of a balancesheet, a considerable amount of rate uncollected. He hoped and believed, however, that a large portion of the rate now due would be collected and made available.
MR. GEORGE A. HAMILTONsaid, if it was really expected that the poor-law system should work well, or indeed at all in Ireland, the House must not found its legislation upon the supposition that boards of guardians would not do their duty. There might be some few exceptions; but he felt warranted in saying that, generally speaking, the boards of guardians in Ireland did their duty. The Committee must not be led away by statements of hon. Members like that just made; and he (Mr. Hamilton) would ask the attention of the Committee to the opinion of the Poor Law Commissioners themselves on the subject. It was true, no doubt, that there was a large amount of uncollected rate at the present time; but then it should be remembered that the circumstances of Ireland were rather peculiar now. But what was the language held by the Commissioners in their last report on the subject of the collection of the rate? Why, the Commissioners stated, in their Twelfth Report, laid on the Table of the House last Session, that the general state of the unions never was so satisfactory. They gave, in their report, an account of the funds of all the
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unions in Ireland for some years; and they stated that, whereas in May, 1843, there was a balance against 111 unions then open, of 5,697 l.; in February, 1845, there was a balance in favour of 116, of 30,799 l.; and in February, 1846, there was a balance in favour of 128 unions then open, of no less then 49,020 l. They also stated that, in general, considering the newness of the rates, the collection was conducted successfully, and at a moderate expense, and that in some unions the rate was collected with an accuracy and fidelity which reflected credit on the local management. Now, really, when such wholesale charges were made against the boards of guardians in Ireland, these statements of the Commissioners ought to be recollected. And then, as to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton proposing or supposing that guardians could be compelled to do their duty by pains and penalties—why, he really had thought that such notions were long since exploded.
MR. VERNON SMITHobserved, that if the rates were not collected, it was not unreasonable to suppose that the fault rested with the boards of guardians. If they were not to blame, then it was clear that the rate could not be collected at all, and then there was no use in going on with the Bill at all.
MR. SHAW, entirely concurring with his hon. Friend (Mr. Hamilton), that the boards of guardians had been very unjustly blamed in many instances, still he did not wish to mislead the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) or the House into an opinion that in many parts of Ireland there would not be real difficulty in collecting the rates. It was one thing their being leviable in law, and another, their being leviable in fact. Well, he had not deceived the House. He had warned them of the danger they would incur by enacting outdoor relief to the able-bodied; and he verily believed that in many of the western counties, if it were attempted to enforce the law to the utmost, that the paid officers under that clause would represent not only the boards of guardians, but the landed proprietors, for that the poor rates would be more than the land was worth; and that it would not be possible for the boards to collect, or the lands to pay them.
MR. P. SCROPEsaid, that there were several large landed proprietors who appeared to be in arrear for rates; and he thought that in their cases, at least, payment should be enforced.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERobjected to the Amendment on the ground of the impracticability of carrying out its provisions.
Clause agreed to. Remaining clauses were agreed to.
MR. SHAWhad a clause to move for the purpose of relieving the Irish clergy from an unfair and unequal pressure upon them of the burden of the poor rate. This had operated to the disadvantage of the clergy since the passing of the Irish Poor Law in 1838, and he had frequently complained of it in that House; but it became of still greater importance, when the impost was about to be indefinitely increased by that Bill, and at a time when, he believed no person would be found to deny that the clergy of Ireland were devoting not only their time, their thoughts, and their best energies, but also their pecuniary means, to an extent far beyond what they or their families could justly spare, to alleviate the unparalleled distress that in every part of Ireland surrounded them. Under the existing law, the occupier was supposed to pay both the landlord's and titheowner's poor rate. He then deducted from his landlord the half of his entire advance, and the landlord deducted the whole poundage rate from the rent-charge payable by him to the titheowner—the theory being, that in that way the occupier paid the entire poundage rent upon the sum actually paid both for rent to the landlord and tithe rent-charge to the clergyman; and that for the half advanced by himself, he paid so much the less rent to the landlord. But practically the case was very different. In reality the land never was valued at the full rate it paid, both in the shape of rent and tithe rent-charge; but provided the valuation was comparatively correct, it signified little to any party, except the titheowner, what the standard was. For example, if all lands were equally undervalued, the proportion was the same to both lessors and occupiers; but in the ratio that the whole was undervalued, did the proportion of the clergyman's rate rise, inasmuch as he paid the poundage upon the utmost farthing that he received; and then, when from a lower valuation a new rate was required, he had to pay his whole unduly large proportion over again; and even though the clergyman did not pay less, he would greatly prefer the payment going direct to the poor; for now the mode of payment was complicated and not very intelligible: the tenant paying the whole
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of the tithe rate, and only getting half back; the landlord paying only the half, and stopping the whole; and the clergyman being under the impression that what was stopped from him rather went into the landlord's pocket, than to the support of the poor. But besides that, the clergyman had to pay upon his gross income, while the landlord only paid upon his net. For instance, a clergyman with a living of 400 l. a year, had, since the passing of the Church Temporalities Act, to pay 25 per cent, or 100 l. of that to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners as a tax upon his benefice, as also, say 50 l. a year in other fixed charges, over which he had no control; yet instead of paying, as would be just, upon his real income of 250 l. a year, he had the rate to pay upon his nominal income of 400 l.; and under the law they were then passing, authorizing out-door relief, it would be very easy to conceive a case in some unions where the poor rate might absorb the clergyman's entire income. He was persuaded that was not the intention of the Government, and could not be the desire of the House; and that, therefore, they would not refuse him the act of justice he demanded on behalf of the Irish clergy, namely, that they should be taxed upon their real and not their nominal incomes. What he proposed was, to assimilate the Irish to the English law in that respect—placing the clergy upon the rate, and then ascertaining, by means of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, as prescribed by the Church Temporalities Act, their real incomes. He had stated the substance of the alteration he proposed, and it was very simple; but his clauses might at first sight appear intricate, inasmuch as he had first to make the rent-charge a separate rateable hereditament; secondly, to provide both for impropriate and clerical tithes; and, thirdly, to alter the mode of valuation, by excluding the rent-charge from the sum paid by the occupier, whereas at present it was included. The clauses would stand as follows:—
"And whereas, under the provisions of the said Act of the first and second year of Her Majesty's reign, tithe composition is liable to be rated only as, and with, the hereditaments upon which such composition is charged, and it is expedient that such provisions shall be amended; be it therefore enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act, composition for tithe, or rent-charge in lieu thereof, shall be deemed to be a separate rateable hereditament under the said Act, and shall be distinctly rated as such.
"And be it enacted, that in all cases of rent-charge in lieu of impropriate tithes, the annual

411
amount of such rent-charge, after deducting there-from all rates, taxes, and public charges, if any, imposed on the owner in respect thereof, shall be deemed the net annual value thereof; and that in all cases of rent-charge in lieu of tithes, payable to any spiritual person, the net annual value thereof, upon which the rate for the relief of the poor, under the said recited Act or this Act shall be made, shall be deemed to be the amount of such rent-charge or composition, as ascertained and valued by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of Ireland, for the purpose of a certain tax or assessment upon church property, under an Act passed in the third and fourth year of the reign of his late Majesty King William the Fourth, intituled 'An Act to alter and amend the Laws relating to the Church Temporalities of Ireland,' after the deductions and allowances therein directed to be made, and after deducting also the portion of the assessment or tax chargeable in respect of such rent-charge, under the said last recited Act.
"And be it enacted, that the rate made upon each rent-charge or composition for tithe, shall be paid by the person in the receipt or enjoyment thereof, and may be recovered by all the ways and means by which any rate made on any lessor may be recovered.
"And be it enacted, that from and after the passing of this Act, the net annual value of all rateable hereditaments, other than rent-charge or composition for tithe, shall be deemed to be the rent for which, one year with another, the same might, in their actual state, be reasonably expected to let from year to year, all the rates, taxes, and public charges, if any, and the probable average cost of repairs, insurance, and the other expenses necessary to maintain the hereditaments in their actual state, and the rent-charge or composition for tithe, being assumed, for the purpose of estimating such annual value, to be paid by the tenant."
SIR GEORGE GREYwas understood to assent to the principle of the clause, inasmuch as it related to the assimilation of the conditions of tithe-rent proprietors in England and Ireland. He, however, proposed certain verbal amendments.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, that the clause, even altered as was proposed by the right hon. Baronet, would in some degree remedy the injustice and hardship of which the clergy in Ireland complained; but he regretted the right hon. Gentleman would not agree to it in the shape proposed by his right hon. Colleague. Without going over the statement made by his right hon. Friend, he would state to the Committee that there were two great injustices or grievances under which every one must admit the clergy of Ireland laboured. The one was, that whereas all other persons were rated on a low valuation of their property, the clergy were rated at its full amount, without any allowance for losses, or any deduction whatever; and the other
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was, that whereas all other persons were rated at a net valuation, the clergy were rated at a gross. If the Committee referred to the original Bill of 1837, they would find that tithe rent-charge or composition was intended to be made like all other property, and, as tithes in England, a rateable hereditament. Supposing it had been, of course it would have fallen under the 64th Clause of the Bill, and been rated at its letting value, deducting all charges; but the Bill was altered in Committee, and the landlord empowered to deduct the full poundage upon the rent-charge, without any allowance or deduction for charges whatever; and what was the effect of this? Why, that the Irish clergyman at present paid poor rate upon the tax which he had to pay to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, which tax was imposed for the repairs of churches, as a substitute for an assessment on the land; and he paid also ecclesiastical tax upon the sum which he paid as poor rate. Nothing could be more unfair than this. A clergyman was bound in Ireland to pay instalments for the building of glebe-houses; and he had also, in many cases, to pay to the family of his predecessor, interest for sums expended in repairing glebe-houses, or he was obliged to expend money on such repairs himself; the value of the glebe-house was thus increased, and of course the poor rate upon it so much higher, and yet the clergyman had to pay poor rate upon the sums thus paid by him for the building or improving of his glebe, while he had to pay also the additional rate placed upon the glebe in consequence of these improvements. The clause, as assented to by the right hon. Baronet, would at least remedy these hardships; and he (Mr. Hamilton) therefore did not think it necessary to go further into the subject on the present occasion.
MR. A. M'CARTHYobserved, that many of these deductions seemed to him to be similar in principle to the owner of an incumbered estate claiming exemption from his liabilities. It was not judicious in the supporters of the Irish Church to endeavour to free the property of that Church from the burdens which the Legislature placed upon it. The great bane of that Church was, that it was too rich, and that it had not applied to the relief of the poor that sum to which, under the canon law, they were entitled. He should oppose the clause.
LORD G. BENTINCKdid not well understand the nature of the clause. Was it

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to shift the burden from the titheowner to the landlord?
SIR G. GREY: The law was to be the same as it was in England. The titheowner would be rated by name on the amount of tithe he was entitled to receive, and the landlord would not have to pay rates on the tithe-rent charge.
MR. HAMILTON, in reference to the observations of the hon. and learned Member for Cork (Mr. M'Carthy), begged to say, that the alterations which he suggested, were offered because the clergy were anxious that the sums levied on their incomes should really go to the support of the poor.
MR. SHAWsaid, that as the Government agreed to the principle of the clauses he proposed, he had hoped they would have allowed the deductions under the Church Temporalities Act. As, however, it would be of no use for him to divide, he would withdraw the clauses then, and, after conference with the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey), bring them up on the next stage of the Bill.
Clauses withdrawn.
MR. J. O'CONNELLmoved clauses directing a separate place of religious instruction to be built in each workhouse for Catholic children.
SIR G. GREYsaid, he was anxious to take time to consider the hon. Gentleman's proposal, and should say on the bringing up of the report whether he could assent to it.
MR. J. O'CONNELL: The object of his clauses was to prevent Roman Catholic children from being placed for religious instruction under persons of another religion.
Clauses postponed.
House resumed. Committee to sit again.

RATIONS IN IRELAND.
LORD G. BENTINCKhoped the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland would be able to give a satisfactory answer to a question which he had put the day before yesterday, as to the rations given on the public works in Ireland.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that the noble Lord had on Tuesday night read to the House a list of rations which the noble Lord understood had been determined upon by the Central Relief Committee, as the scale on which relief was to be afforded to the destitute poor in Ireland. The noble Lord, he believed, derived his information from a publication in a daily newspaper;
414
and he believed that the noble Lord read the list correctly as it appeared in that newspaper. There was, however, a very material error in that list. He had since received the official statement of the rations, and he thought the House would admit that they were sufficient. A ration was to consist either of 1½ lb. of bread (the newspapers stated it at ½ lb. so that there was a material difference), or 1 lb. of biscuit, or 1 lb. of meal or flour, or any other grain, or one quart of soup thickened with a portion of meal, according to any known receipts, and one quarter ration of bread, or biscuit, or meal, in addition. He hoped the noble Lord would agree with him in thinking that this allowance of food was sufficient.
House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS. 3a and passed:—Drainage of Land.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Brougham, from Spitalfields, that Persons holding Property in Ireland may be made Responsible for the Maintenance of the Labouring Poor of that Country.—From Radford, Nottingham, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement, and for a National Rate.—By Lord Stanley, from the Isle of Thanet Union, for the Adoption of a Measure making the Landlords of Tenements not exceeding Eight Pounds liable to the Poor's Rates.

VAN DIEMEN'S LAND—SIR EARDLEY WILMOT.
LORD STANLEYsaid, that although the Motion to which he had to call their Lordships' attention was one of an unusual character, yet as he believed there was no objection on the part of Her Majesty's Government to the production of the papers for which he was about to move, it was only necessary for him to state shortly to their Lordships the nature of his Motion, and the grounds on which he made it. He made this Motion, not of his own accord, but in the fulfilment of an earnest wish expressed by a gentleman lately in the service of Her Majesty's Government, in a distant colony, who complained that at a distance of 16,000 miles from this country, and engaged in the performance of the duties of the office to which he had been appointed, he had been the victim of accusations against his public and private character, which he was prepared to prove were totally unfounded and calumnious. He did not wish, on the present occasion, to enter upon the merits of

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Sir Eardley Wilmot's government of this colony—that was a subject totally beside the question which he desired to bring before their Lordships; except indeed insomuch that he would readily admit that there could be no situation in which the observance of the decencies of society and of strict morality was more essential, than in the personal character of a Governor who was placed in the peculiar situation of administering the affairs of a colony like Van Diemen's Land, At the time when he (Lord Stanley) had the honour of filling the office of Colonial Secretary—in the year 1845—he did not deny that several reports had reached him from various quarters, imputing great irregularity of personal conduct and immorality to Sir Eardley Wilmot, and stating that the conduct and the society at the Government House was anything but what was decorous; but, at the same time, when he felt bound to endeavour to ascertain the truth of these rumours, he never could get anything beyond the vaguest and merest allegations; and when he had ever endeavoured, in any direction, to touch upon anything like particulars, it was always said that no particulars need be alleged—the fact was notorious in Van Diemen's Land. In the year 1845 there appeared, in the Naval and Military Gazette of this country, a letter, purporting to be written from Melbourne, in Australia, in which those imputations were prominently put forward; and it was stated, that such was the scandalous misconduct at the Government House, that it was impossible for any female in decent society to visit the house, and that the colony was entirely scandalized. That statement he (Lord Stanley) did not see, and therefore it did not attract his attention; but it reached the colony in the month of April, and as soon as it reached it, it was met by a spontaneous declaration of all the principal persons in the colony, that the charge, which was stated in England to be a notorious fact, was, in Van Diemen's Land, considered to be a notorious falsehood. It was stated by the persons who signed that declaration, that they were in the habit, themselves and their families, of holding constant intercourse with Sir Eardley Wilmot at the Government House. That counter-statement was sent back from the colony in the month of April, 1845, and was, he believed, received in this country somewhere about the month of October following. It so happened, at the very time this
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statement was sent here from the colony, or rather, this refutation of the charges against Sir Eardley Wilmot was sent here from the colony, that his right hon. Friend (Mr. Gladstone), who had succeeded him (Lord Stanley) in the Colonial Department, also heard the rumours; and having from other grounds resolved to remove Sir Eardley Wilmot from the office of Governor of Van Diemen's Land, thought it his duty to address to Sir Eardley Wilmot a despatch marked "secret;" and having stated in his public and official capacity the grounds of his removal from the government of Van Diemen's Land, in this he stated, he felt it necessary to add, that rumours of the description to which he (Lord Stanley) referred, had reached him; and he felt bound to explain to Sir Eardley Wilmot that, unless these rumours were satisfactorily refuted, it would be impossible for him to advise Her Majesty to employ Sir Eardley Wilmot in any other colony. On the 24th of September, 1846, Sir Eardley Wilmot received the first intimation of his intended recall; and his successor, an officer, appointed administrator of the government pro tempore, arrived in Van Diemen's Land a few days afterwards. On the 25th of October, the duplicate official despatch reached Sir Eardley Wilmot, and with it the secret despatch, informing him of those imputations against his personal character. Sir Eardley Wilmot forthwith replied to the Secretary of State that he was exceedingly happy to have received this direct communication of the grounds on which he would be induced to abstain from recommending him for service in any other colony; for he was prepared to give not only a peremptory and absolute denial of there being the slightest foundation for any of these rumours, but he was determined to remain on the spot when he was deprived of the government of the colony, and of all authority, and to subject his conduct to the strictest investigation on the spot on which all these rumours appeared to have originated, and where they might, if well founded, be capable of proof. On the next day he laid the despatch before the Executive Council, and requested that after he had given up the office of Governor, his conduct should be strictly and impartially inquired into. The Executive Council having taken this communication into consideration, stated that they thought the best mode of undertaking such an inquiry—if such an inquiry were undertaken at all—was by delegating it to

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a committee of their own body, with whom they wished to associate the chief justice of the colony, the commander of the troops, the archdeacon of the colony, and a reverend gentleman, the minister of one of the principal churches at Hobart Town. The archdeacon refused to serve on the inquiry, the other gentlemen consented, and by the new Governor, who had then superseded Sir Eardley Wilmot, the matter was referred to the examination of a committee so composed. The committee, on the fullest consideration, reported that it appeared to them that to institute such an inquiry was absolutely impracticable; that no charge that was brought was capable of being directly substantiated, consequently there was no charge that admitted of being directly met; that there was only one mode that could be adopted, and that was to invite any body who had any charge to make against the personal conduct of Sir Eardley Wilmot to come forward and make and substantiate such charges; but they felt, though Sir Eardley Wilmot was ready to submit himself to the inquiry, that this was a course which was open to grave objection, and would form a precedent of an injurious character; that the committee to whom it was proposed to confide the inquiry had no power to summon or examine witnesses; and that statements might be made, whether they were substantiated or not, that would affect, not only the character of Sir Eardley Wilmot, but that would also affect the conduct of third parties, whose names would be brought forward, and whom it would be unfair to include in the investigation. Therefore, they thought it was not expedient to enter upon the investigation: they gave their reasons for that opinion, and said, while they thought the inquiry was impracticable, they deemed it due to Sir Eardley Wilmot to certify, in explicit terms, that, so far as their observation had gone in their intercourse with him, since his arrival in the colony—a period of three years—nothing had transpired that would justify the allegation that he had been guilty of any violation of the decencies of private life. That was signed amongst others, by the chief justice, the commander in chief, and the minister of one of the churches. And, simultaneously, as he (Lord Stanley) was informed, there was a very general address to Sir Eardley Wilmot, signed by the inhabitants to the following effect:—"We, the undersigned inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land,
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having heard that your recall is in consequence of imputations on your personal character, deem it our duty to express our contradiction of such reports;"—and they stated that they deemed themselves the more called upon to do so from the fact of many of them having differed with him about some measures of his government. That statement had been transmitted to Her Majesty's Government by Sir Eardley Wilmot; and he believed his noble Friend opposite would have no objection to the production of the papers. As to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) who had succeeded him (Lord Stanley) in the Colonial Department, he could, he believed, say he had no objection to the production of the papers, nor had he any objection to the production of a letter which he thought it his duty, though no longer holding office, to address to Sir Eardley Wilmot. He (Lord Stanley) would express no opinion on the subject; but he thought that when a public officer at a great distance was assailed by rumours that rested on no foundation, or that rested on no fact capable of being substantiated or proved, and when that officer remained on the spot to meet every inquiry, and subject himself to the most rigid scrutiny in that society where it was said his irregularity of conduct was a matter of notoriety, and when from that society, so far as vague accusations could be met, they were met by a positive denial, and when that officer was on such a ground officially informed by the Secretary of State that those rumours would prevent his ever again being employed in the service of the Crown unless they were satisfactorily refuted, it was right, and it was due to that officer that that statement should be put before the public, be accompanied by the refutation of the charge, which, if uncontradicted, must operate most unfavourably on the character and future prospects of this gentleman. He (Lord Stanley) begged, in conclusion, to move for copies of the correspondence which had taken place between the Colonial Office and the Governor of Van Diemen's Laud respecting the personal conduct of Sir Eardley Wilmot.
EARL GREYsaid, that although under ordinary circumstances he should think it extremely inconvenient that a correspondence ending in the recall of a Governor should be called for by Parliament, yet he thought the circumstances of the case were peculiar, and in justice to Sir Eardley Wilmot he thought it right that the correspondence that was called for should be pro-

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duced. He was the more ready to accede to the proposition, from having learned that the right hon. Gentleman to whom he succeeded in office had no objection that the despatch which he had written should be produced.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned.