Sitting of 5 March 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Army Service; Life Insurances.
2° Drainage of Land; Loan.
Reported.—3° Consolidated Fund (8,000,000 l.)
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir R. H. Inglis, from Grately (Hants) and Quarley (Southampton), against the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By the Earl of Arundel and Surrey, from Chilvers Coton and Nuneaton (Warwick), in Favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Mr. Escott and Sir De L. Evans, from Westminster, and Sir B. Hall, from Marylebone, for Inquiry respecting the Rajah of Sattara.—By Mr. Sotheron, from Bradford, for Repeal of the Stamp Duty on Attorneys' Certificates.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Oxford and Okehampton, against the Use of Grain in Breweries and Distilleries.—By Mr. Forster, from Garliestown and Great Grimsby, and Mr. Hume, from Arbroath, for the Reduction of Lighthouse Dues.—By Mr. Godson, from Kidderminster, respecting Remuneration to Tax Assessors and Collectors.—By Mr. Labouchere, from Members of the Athy Relief Committee, respecting Ventilation of Cottages (Ireland).—By Mr. Walker, from Bury, in Favour of the Ten Hours Factories Bill.—By Mr. J. Tollemache, from Middlewich, for a Day of Humiliation on account of the Famine in Ireland.—By Mr. T. Duncombe, from the Isle of Wight, for Inquiry into the Management of the Roads in that Island.—By Mr. Mitcalfe, from North Shields, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Mr. P. Scrope, from several places in Ireland, for Alteration in the Poor Law (Ireland).—By Mr. Walker, from Chorley, for an Efficient Poor Law (Ireland).—By Mr. Bowles, from the Inhabitants of the Hamlet of St. Thomas the Apostle (Cornwall), and Lord Rendlesham, from Cratfield, for Repeal or Alteration in the Poor Removal Act.—By Mr. Mangles, from Guildford, for the Suppression of Promiscuous Intercourse.—By Mr. Hume, from the Society of Freethinking Christians (London), for the Abolition of Punishment of Death.—By Mr. Aldam and other Hon. Members, from several Railway Companies, against the Railways Bill.—By Colonel Mure, from the Trustees of the Renfrewshire Turnpike Road, for Alteration of the Railways Bill. — By Mr. P. Carew and other Hon. Members, from several places, for Alteration of the Law Settlement.—By Mr. Hindley, from the Peace Society, for referring National Disputes to Arbitration.

QUARANTINE.
DR. BOWRINGasked the hon. Vice-President of the Board of Trade, if any important change or modification had lately taken place in the quarantine regulations, or whether there was a probability of any changes being made; and, also, whether

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the Government was willing to lay before the House in an official shape any documents upon the subject.
MR. M. GIBSONsaid, the only new regulations he was aware of had been made during the past month, by which ships from Turkey, loaded with unenumerated articles only, having clean bills of health, and with every person on board free from the suspicion of infection, were in future to be released from all quarantine; the regulations would be laid on the Table of the House.

PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
MR. BOUVERIEdrew the attention of the right hon. Secretary of Ireland to sixteen proclamations of presentments for public works in Ireland in a recent number of the Dublin Gazette; these presentments, he apprehended, were made under the Act of last Session. He wished to ask, whether it was intended by the Government to sanction further employment of the people under these presentments, after the measures just introduced?
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, the measures which were intended as substitutes for the Act of last Session, had only just passed the Legislature, and had not yet come into operation. He could assure the hon. Gentleman there was every anxiety on the part of the Government to reduce and extinguish the system of public works as speedily as might be consistent with the peace and safety of the country.
MR. HUMEasked, whether any express orders had yet been issued on the subject?
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, most precise and positive directions had been given to the Irish Government to carry this intention into effect.

THE CASTLEBAR UNION.
VISCOUNT DUNCANbegged to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department to the letter circulated that morning from Mr. Otway to the Poor Law Commissioners, in reference to the Castlebar union. Mr. Otway stated that, on an examination of the rate-books of that union, he had found that rates were now due from solvent parties, and that they were recoverable. The letter further alluded to a belief which generally prevailed, that the Government would see the expediency of making advances on the security of the several unions; and what he (Viscount Duncan) now wished to ask was, was it the intention of the Government to make
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any such advances of public money, and also what steps had been taken to enforce the collection of rates due by solvent parties in the Castlebar union?
SIR G. GREY: Since the instructions, an explanation of which had already been given, had been addressed to the Lord Lieutenant, no additional instructions had been issued on this subject. With regard to the latter question put by the noble Lord, he would find, on referring to page 20 of the correspondence relating to the union workhouses in Ireland, that on the 29th of January the Poor Law Commissioners wrote to the board of guardians of the Castlebar union directing that there should be transmitted to them as soon as possible a list of all defaulters in the payment of poor-rates in the union; and that, on the same day, in another communication, they desired the board to collect rates as usual, and to make every exertion to enforce the payment of the rates on all parties in arrear.
MR. B. ESCOTTdesired to know if the right hon. Gentleman could state whether or not Lord Lucan had paid his share of the rates of that union; and if he had not, had he refused on the ground of poverty?
SIR G. GREY: It had been stated in very strong terms in that House, and repeated elsewhere, that Lord Lucan was not the person from whom the rates, for which he was assessed and which he had refused to pay, were due, and he had no further information to give on that subject. Lord Lucan was now in Ireland; and if, on more minute inquiry, he should find that he was liable, it was to be hoped he would no longer refuse to pay the rates.
MR. P. SCROPEasked if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that the Government had advanced large sums, the rates not having been paid up regularly, in the Cavan union?
SIR G. GREY: If the hon. Gentleman had read more carefully the correspondence which had been laid on the Table, he would have seen that there was no intention of relieving the ratepayers further in any union at the expense of the Treasury. Directions had been addressed to the Pool Law Commissioners, and also he might say to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, that no means should be left untried by which the collection of rates from solvent parties should be enforced. At the same time it was suggested that, in urgent cases, and to prevent that additional suffering and distress which would result from the clos-

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ing of a workhouse, the Lord Lieutenant should advance relief, at certain times, and as his discretion might dictate. The Cavan union was not the only union entitled by an order from the Treasury to such indulgence; and the same discretion had been exercised towards that union which would be evinced elsewhere.
MR. HUMEwould recommend that a resolution be adopted that relief should be forwarded to the different unions only in proportion to the amount of rates which had been paid.
SIR G. GREYapprehended that the hon. Gentleman, to effect that object, would have to submit a Motion to, and obtain the sanction of, the House.

THE RUSSIAN-DUTCH LOAN.
MR. STUART WORTLEYwished to put a question to the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Foreign Department, which had arisen out of the discussion of the previous evening; but the noble Lord, he perceived, was not now in his place, and perhaps therefore the noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury would have no objection, in his absence, to give the answer. In the record of the Convention of 1831 it was stated that the contracting parties had to refer to the Convention of 1815; and the noble Lord was understood in the course of last night to say that those words in the Convention of 1831 referring to the adhesion of Russia to the general arrangements of the Treaty of Vienna, as one of the considerations of the renewed convention, were introduced at the request of the representative of Russia in this country. The question he desired to ask the noble Lord opposite was, whether there would be any objection to lay before the House such portions of the engagements and documents respecting this Convention of 1831 as would be demonstrative of that fact? He would have postponed making the inquiry, had it not been that the debate would be resumed on Thursday, and that it was of importance to have every information on the subject before the House as early as possible.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The discussion will be renewed on Thursday. With regard to the question which is asked, I am not sure if that to which I alluded is stated in any protocol; but I shall be prepared to speak more positively on Monday. If any such document is in existence, I will lay it before the House.

CANTEENS IN BARRACKS.
On the Question that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
COLONEL LINDSAYrose to submit the Motion of which he had given notice—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to direct inquiry to be made into the effect that the present Canteen system has upon the Army; and whether it should not be advantageous to discipline and to the moral improvement of Her Majesty's troops, to prevent the sale of spirituous liquors in Canteens within the precincts or proximity of barracks."
Upon the manner in which the House would deal with his proposition, depended, he was convinced, much of the comfort of the great body of the members of that profession to which he belonged. The House would find, on looking to page 46 of the Ordnance Estimates, that the sum of 65,739 l. was derived by Government from canteens and sheet washing; and that, after deducting about 11,986 l. for washing, there remained, as the annual profit on canteens, 53,752 l. He would explain to the House the manner in which the system worked. A canteen was rented for three years; at the expiration of that time a new tenant was obtained by calling for tenders. The highest tender was invariably accepted, if after a rigid inquiry into the person's character and condition, they were found satisfactory. The tenant was obliged to find sureties to a large amount for the payment of the yearly and fixed rent; and this rent was a specified sum for the buildings and appurtenances; and, in addition, a further sum, fixed by tender, for every ten men (exclusive of sergeants) who occupied the barracks; and besides this, if the barrack was not occupied to the full extent, in consequence of married soldiers living out of barracks, or men being in hospital, the tenant was also obliged to pay for them at the same rate, so long as the numbers did not exceed what the barrack was calculated to hold. The tenant paid all the taxes, assessments, &c. Therefore the greater number of men in barracks, the greater the profit to the tenant. The rent was always strictly exacted, and as it was also high, and the profit dependent upon the numbers who frequented the canteen, and upon the amount consumed, the effect was, that the tenant was obliged to make exorbitant charges to procure him a profit, and to resort to adulteration of the articles, and to gross extortion. The duty of regulation lay with the Ordnance; but it was impossible to prevent this frequent and gross

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extortion from the mode in which the canteens were let. The subject which he particularly wished to bring under the notice of Government was, that in these canteens spirits were permitted to be sold, as well as other articles; and that, consequently, they very greatly tended, if unregulated, to produce a general demoralisation of the men. Such a demoralisation did not result from long service. Young recruits, with money in their pockets, were early seduced by the older soldiers, whose funds were long ago exhausted, into the canteen, and that which at first was but a chance visit became a habit. It was his object to forbid the sale of spirits in these places, and thus to remove the temptation. He did not suppose that the evil to which he called attention, had been foreseen. Regiments could not do without suttlers; and the authorities had thought they therefore might as well establish the canteen; and, as some one would profit by the rule, of course it was as acceptable to the Government as to anybody else. He did not deny the use of a canteen; all he asked was, that they should forbid the consumption of spirits. If they did not do so, they would find all their attempted reforms ineffectual. The Secretary at War had issued different warrants for the establishment of normal schools and of savings banks, and for accomplishing other most desirable improvements in the social state of the Army; but if they still granted to the soldier the facilities which now existed for obtaining ardent spirits, they would in vain endeavour to detach him from the canteen and its temptations. With the discontinuance of the sale of spirits, would cease that attraction which was now found in idleness. He could point to instances in which men under the influence of spirits had knocked down their superiors, and that in circumstances which could not have occurred had beer only been sold in the canteens, and had it been necessary to go out of the barracks to procure spirits. He had known the case of a man who, disgusted with the discipline to which he was subjected, went to the canteen, got drunk, and afterwards struck the non-commissioned officer by whom he was drilled, for which, of course, he was sent to prison: this occurred in Canada, not in England. It might be said that the same things occurred among the operatives of this country; but it should be recollected that if a civilian did knock down a policeman when drunk, it involved no more than punishment by fine; but it
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was different in the Army, and the House ought to recollect the frightful consequences that were entailed on the soldier when he was guilty of drunkenness and insubordination. It appeared from a return which he had in his hand, that the principal crimes committed in the Army were drunkenness and insubordination, and that the latter seldom happened without being caused by the former. It appeared also that the greatest number of men guilty of insubordination committed the crime in barracks; and that the acts of insubordination chiefly took place on parade, or at the evening roll-call; and, what was a very extraordinary thing was, that the regiments which came from the East or West Indies, or from the Cape of Good Hope and other places, were more notorious for drunkenness and more violent than those at home, and that among them the number of capital punishments was greater than in other regiments. It was notorious that in the West Indies the soldiers had been known to add Cayenne pepper to the spirits which they drank, because they were not strong enough. It had come under his notice that the spirits sold in canteens had a more violent effect on the men who drank them than the spirits sold out of the barracks. He believed that the keepers of canteens often mixed their spirits with vitriol and other injurious ingredients, and the consequence was that they produced a greater amount of frenzy when drunk than did those taken out of the canteen. Such statements as these, he thought it was the duty of the Government seriously to consider, and, even at the loss of some slight income, to alter a system which was productive of so much injury. Supposing his Motion were to be carried out, he did not by any means expect that much immediate good would result from it; but he thought they might confidently look forward to a general improvement in progress of time. They would to a great extent protect the young soldier, and render it more difficult for the confirmed drunkard to get opportunities of seducing him into habits of intoxication. He believed it would be found that the present system of canteens was the cause of some expense to the country; for the habitual drunkard before he had served twenty-one years, generally became inefficient; and, according to the system still in practice—for the new regulations had not yet come into operation—the invalided man, whether he was a good or bad character, got more than

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the man who was discharged at his own request on a pension of 10 d. a day. The constitutions of drunkards were undermined; they became a burden to the country, and many a good man was unable to get his discharge in consequence, though he might have well deserved it. He believed it would not be difficult to show, that though an habitual drunkard and an habitual drinker were two different things, the one was as great an expense to the country as the other. There were men who never got drunk, yet who were always taking their glass; and he believed the constitutions of these men failed sooner than those of habitual drunkards. Many of these men were discharged on pensions, and in this way cost money to the country. It might be urged that the canteen system had the effect of keeping men in barracks; but he thought, if they were to look to the moral character of the soldiery as the point to be attained, the evils produced would greatly counterbalance any good that was derived from such a system. In 1836 a military commission was appointed, and they heard a good deal of evidence with regard to the system of punishments. The witnesses examined before that commission, were generally asked whether they were able
—"to suggest any means of reclaiming or eradicating the propensity of drunkenness so prevalent among the soldiery, and confessedly the parent of the majority of military crimes?"
The majority of the answers to this question entered into the first part of it; and a variety of proposals were made, such as a reduction of pay, confinement, &c.; but very few entered on the subject of canteens, though one or two certainly did. Among these was the present Governor General of India, who said, that before he left the Board of Ordnance
—"he had in contemplation a minute recommending that a portion of the canteen rent, which is a species of tax levied upon the soldier, should be applied to his recreation in the barrack-yard."
Now, if, as Lord Hardinge remarked, the canteen rents were a species of tax upon the soldier, he thought that the tax should be used for his improvement, not for his demoralisation. The present Adjutant General (Sir J. Macdonald) certainly took another view of the case. He thought that the soldier, by having the canteen at hand to resort to, even when he was in the very act of drinking, was in some measure in the trammels of military discipline. Sir E. Blakeney thought canteens should be let upon lower terms, and better regulated.
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Sir C. Smyth considered that canteens should sell malt liquors only, not spirits, and stated, that "if he had authority, not a single glass of rum should enter the barrack-yard." Sir Colin Campbell thought the sale of spirits should be prohibited in canteens. Another officer strongly urged the prohibition of the sale of spirits in canteens; and stated his belief that in nine cases out of ten, men would not take the trouble to dress themselves to seek it out of barracks. Another witness whose evidence he would refer to, was one whose authority the House would respect. He had served in every quarter of the globe—in one or two of them in a military capacity, but in all of them in a civil capacity; and he had served both under the last and the present Government—he meant Sir George Arthur. That officer said—
"We encourage a soldier to drink a small quantity of spirits, and we punish him for drinking a large quantity, though we know that a small quantity disarms him of caution as to the danger, and that the daily habit creates a physical necessity, which the utmost fortitude cannot successfully struggle against."
A medical officer of great experience and authority, Dr. Ferguson, late Inspector General of Military Hospitals, who had served both at home and abroad, in a work published by him some years ago, said—
"A ration of spirits, as an article of daily diet, ever engenders a craving for more, so imperious and irresistible, there is no crime the soldier would not commit, no abomination he would not practise, for its gratification. Punishment, when put in competition, has then no terrors, and the fear of death is set at nought. He would drink, though the king of terrors stared him in the face, and rather than go without it, he would take that drink out of a jakes, or from the most disgusting vehicles hnman imagination can conceive."
If the system of canteens excited this propensity in the soldier, and if spirits tended thus to injure his constitution, and to disqualify him for the service upon which he had entered, it ought to be put out of his power to indulge in this propensity, instead of his being tempted to give way to it. Dr. Ferguson went on:—
"The army canteens have ever been institutions of drunkenness; and it is difficult to believe how an abuse so monstrous, and a nuisance so palpable, could have been tolerated so long and to such an extent. It shows the difficulty, in our service, of carrying even the most obvious reforms into effect, when anything in the shape of improvement comes to be proposed to the disturbance of existing interests, or even bad habits of any kind. If kept up at all, it must have been from the high rent that was paid to the barrack department. But how these authorities could reconcile the

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gains thus obtained at so much deadly cost to their consciences, must remain a problem."
Supported by these great authorities, he was justified in saying that the use of spirits in canteens was not only a nuisance and injurious to discipline, as well as prejudicial to the health of the soldier, but that it was also expensive to the country by causing the early annihilation of his constitution; and therefore he thought he did right in bringing the matter before the House. And when it was known that much power had been taken away from commanding officers, and that corporal punishment had been reduced, and when all sorts of improvements were being introduced into the Army, he thought he was justified in calling upon the Board of Ordnance and the Government even to yield up some of the income of the State which was derived from this source, in order to get rid of this evil, whereby they would raise the character of the service, improve the moral condition of the soldier, and conduce to the efficiency of the Army.
MR. F. MAULEwas not going to defend the system which had been pursued in canteens to a great extent, or to enter into the details which had been referred to at so much length by the hon. and gallant Officer who had just sat down; but he must say that the remedy he proposed by his resolution, although founded on the best of principles, might not be very easily carried out by a distinct vote of the House. But it would not be perhaps disagreeable to the hon. and gallant Officer to learn that the minds of the authorities had been already turned to this question—and that they were considering at this moment how the canteens could be put on a better footing, so as to form part of that general amelioration of the whole state of the soldier, which both the authorities at the Horse Guards and Her Majesty's Government had sincerely at heart. The hon. and gallant Officer would remember that the canteens, though attended with considerable inconvenience when they were allowed to be put to improper uses, were of great advantage to the soldiers in barracks. There were many articles to be obtained in those canteens, which it would be inconvenient on many occasions for the soldier to have to seek without the walls or without the precincts of the barracks. And even with reference to the sale of spirits itself, the canteen was so immediately under the control of the commanding officer, that if he were to exer-
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cise his proper authority, there could be no doubt that with vigilance—common vigilance—many of those evils which the hon. and gallant Officer alluded to, would, in ordinary cases, be prevented. But he was free to confess that it was not easy for a commanding officer to exert all the authority he possessed; there were difficulties in his way; and he was ready to admit, that a commanding officer should not be put in the responsible situation of either ordering the canteens to be closed altogether, or else to submit to evils, which, under the circumstances, were beyond his control. He would not detain the House by going into any of the cases which the hon. and gallant Officer had referred to. He admitted at once, that under many circumstances the sale of spirits in canteens led to evil; but in answer to that, he begged also to state that the total absence of the sale of spirits in canteens might likewise lead to evils in another direction. The hon. and gallant Officer did not trace the original establishment of canteens. He believed they were originally established for the sale of spirits exclusively in barracks, and were afterwards extended to other articles; but they were originally established for the sale of spirits exclusively, for this reason, that an order in that day existed that no spirits should be introduced into barracks, and the spirits introduced there were all smuggled in, and in such a way that it was impossible for the utmost vigilance to prevent it; and it was thought better to establish the sale of spirits by a recognised authority in a place within the barracks, over which the commanding officer would have entire control, and to do away with that practice which formed a serious military crime, namely, connivance in smuggling spirits for the use of the soldiers in the barracks. He had no doubt it might be possible, by a strict regulation, so to restrain the sale of spirits in canteens, without the necessity of banishing it altogether, that it should not lead to evils such as the hon. and gallant Officer had described as applicable to it. He perfectly agreed with the hon. and gallant Officer, there was nothing from which they ought to protect the soldier so much as the seduction of the confirmed—he would not say drunkard, but—hard-drinking man; a man so accustomed to spirits as to carry off, without effect on him, that which would make ten recruits utterly unfit to appear on duty. Those were the sort of men who led away the younger troops of the

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Army; and by placing the canteens under proper regulations, so that those men should not have the means of seducing the young recruits into them, they would do a great deal to put an end to the evil. He could inform the hon. and gallant Officer, that the whole system of canteens was about to undergo careful consideration, and would be put on that footing that, while the canteens afforded the soldier in barracks all the convenience they were intended to give, it would be next to impossible they should in any way whatever conduce to the deterioration of the soldier's morals, or in any way render him unfit to perform the duties which he engaged to do when he enlisted in the service. With these observations he should conclude, and he trusted the hon. and gallant Officer would not press his Motion to a division.
SIR HOWARD DOUGLASwas rejoiced to learn from the right hon. Gentleman that the Government were disposed to take up this question, and to inquire into the whole of the canteen system with a view to put it on a better footing. Much of the canteen system of the present day was the remains of ancient abuses. There was a time when the great profits accruing from the consumption of liquor by soldiers in canteens, were applied to make messes cheaper to the officer. In a command held by himself not a long time ago, he found that the mess allowance of wine allowed to the officers, was paid out of a fund which was created by advancing the price of liquor on the subalterns. He immediately put an end to it. That fund was now appropriated less objectionably; but he would tell the right hon. Gentleman that the canteen system could never be put on a wholesome or on a moral footing adapted to the improvement of the soldier, until the Government and the canteener ceased to receive a profit from the tax payable on what the soldiers consumed. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would take into his consideration whether the canteen might not be made a most convenient and desirable and moral adjunct to the barracks, to be resorted to by the soldier for other purposes than those of intemperance; and if any profit should be allowed to accrue from the sale of beer—for certainly he would exclude spirits altogether—he should propose that that profit, instead of going to the credit of the Government, or into the pocket of the canteener, should be applied to the benefit of the soldier; and if to the canteen, to
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induce the soldier to resort to those establishments for moral and intellectual purposes, as well as for refreshment. He would propose that there should be attached to every regiment a canteener, on the terms that he should derive no profit from the consumption of liquor; that a sufficient salary should be given to him; that he be induced to take an interest in the moral advancement of the soldier, and endeavour to put an end to those pernicious influences which, to his (Sir H. Douglas's) own knowledge, and to his regret, he had long seen and deeply lamented.
MR. GOULBURNcongratulated his hon. and gallant Friend who had brought forward the Motion, on the statement which had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War. His hon. and gallant Friend had only in view that the subject should be thoroughly inquired into, and had afforded to the House the benefit of his long experience in the discipline of regiments; and as the Secretary at War had distinctly stated that the whole subject of canteens was at present under the consideration of Government, and that they were prepared to make such arrangements with respect to them as would not impede, but rather assist to promote, the discipline of the Army, and tend to improve the morals and comforts of the men, he thought his hon. and gallant Friend would cordially acquiesce in the withdrawal of the Motion that had been recommended by the right hon. Gentleman. With regard to the lax system that prevailed in some of those canteens, he thought, however difficult it would be to impose restraints on the sale of spirituous liquors, the question whether the Government should make a profit on this liquor, was one of a different character. He was of opinion that canteens might be converted into places where the soldier could enjoy himself by the fireside, without indulging to the extent that would cause intoxication.
COLONEL ANSONdid not think the subject was properly understood, and wished to say a few words with respect to the manner in which these canteens were generally supposed to be managed. He begged to call the attention of the hon. and gallant Officer who brought forward the Motion, to the regulations of the warrant of 1838; and when they recollected that the regulations at the present moment were so extremely stringent, that it entirely rested with the commanding officer himself

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whether those canteens were well conducted or not, he thought the hon. and gallant Officer had extended his observations further than was necessary. He (Colonel Anson) would, with the permission of the House, read the regulation with respect to canteens: and he thought every hon. Member would agree with him that sufficient powers were vested by it in the commanding officer to see that the very strictest regularity was observed in these places. By that order the canteen keeper was bound to keep regular hours; not to allow persons to become intoxicated; to obey all orders of the Board of Ordnance and commanding officer; and he must obey the instructions given to him on pain of ejection from the canteen. He believed the hon. and gallant Colonel was in the full pay of the service, and where he was in command he had control over the canteens; and he must also add, that if there were any irregularities reported to the Board of Ordnance, they had the power of ejecting the tenant on a week's notice. He would say one word with respect to the way in which canteens were let: they were let by tender, and no person was accepted as tenant unless he could produce sufficient sureties for the amount of rent he had undertaken to pay, and also for his character. He thought it necessary to say thus much upon this subject, as he was afraid it might go forth to the country that there was no regulation with respect to these canteens, and that it was in the power of the canteener to do what he pleased.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, it appeared that a great number of commanding officers felt a deep objection to the present system; and if they felt they had such unlimited powers as it would seem they had by this regulation, which had been quoted by the hon. and gallant Colonel, why did they come forward and give this evidence in the face of the military authorities, unless they felt there were difficulties in the case? It was quite certain that if the commanding officers conceived they had the power given by that regulation, they need not look to any higher authority; but it seemed that some regulation was necessary on the part of the Government. He was glad to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War, that the Government had directed their attention to the subject, in connexion with other arrangements that were now carrying on for the improvement of the condition of the soldier. He regretted to see there
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was some little bias on the part of the right hon. Gentleman as to the inexpediency of prohibiting spirituous liquors in these canteens. He (Sir de Lacy Evans) would not venture to offer any positive opinion upon the subject; but he should wish the Government to try the experiment, for some time, of prohibiting spirituous liquors altogether. He entirely concurred in the proposition of his hon. and gallant Friend opposite, as to the necessity of appointing a canteener; he thought it would tend both to the good of the Army, and the profit of the Excise, if a suitable salary was given to an officer of trust to conduct those establishments, and that no profit whatever should be derived from them.
MR. STUART WORTLEYsaid, it appeared to him, from the official experience he had, short as it was, that nine-tenths at least of military offences had their source in intoxication, and that a large portion of those nine-tenths arose from offences springing from the abuse of canteens.
COLONEL LINDSAYexpressed his satisfaction at the announcement made by the right hon. the Secretary at War, and begged to withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.
Question again put.

CULTIVATION OF THE LAND (IRELAND).
MR. JOHN O'CONNELLa, pursuant to notice, begged to draw the attention of the House to the advisability of employing the labouring population, now engaged on public works in Ireland, in the tillage of the land. He was very desirous to call the attention of hon. Gentlemen to this subject; but, at the same time, he was anxious to bring it forward with as little inconvenience to the progress of public business as possible. He was well aware the present was not the best opportunity to select for the purpose; but he was induced to bring the subject forward by a circumstance which had occurred on the preceding evening. He alluded to the announcement then made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, with respect to the number of persons employed on public works in Ireland, and which induced him to intrude upon the House for a very short period. The announcement of the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have struck the House very much, and to have produced a considerable effect. It appeared from it, that a number of per-

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sons, so large as 668,000—[An Hon. MEMBER: 700,000]—or as 700,000, for that was the number of persons, which, appeared by the last weekly return, was employed on public works in Ireland. Hitherto, he believed, instead of any blame being attached to the Government, they were entitled to the thanks of every humane person, for endeavouring to provide employment for the people. But the question now was, while this system was to be carried on, whether it would not be better to employ the people in the cultivation of the land, which was neglected to a serious extent in many parts of Ireland. It was not necessary, he conceived, to impress upon the House the importance of this subject. Every hon. Member had seen in the public accounts that anticipations of scarcity were rife in every country in Europe. They were told by the public press that in France the amount of food required was far beyond what was anticipated; and that not only in that country, but in the other countries on the Continent, the scarcity of next autumn was likely to be beyond anything yet conceived by those who considered the subject. At home, they had in the Agricultural Gazette a warning held out to them that wrong and mistaken opinions were entertained as to the amount of corn in the hands of farmers and food merchants; and dependence upon a great quantity in their hands, would prove to be fallacious, and a fatal mistake. Under these circumstances, and considering the slowness of cultivation in Ireland, he thought it imperative that the attention of the House should be called to the matter. He thought it well, however, that the subject should not be broached sooner than at the present moment; for if there was any public notice that a suggestion had been made that the Government should undertake in any way, however indirectly, the business of cultivating the land, it might be expected that private exertions for that purpose would be paralysed where private exertion would otherwise be used. But at the present moment, he thought there was no time to lose in having the subject thoroughly considered. He believed that private exertion was now made to the fullest extent; they had every reasonable hope of seeing it made for the proper cultivation of the land for the next crop. In the Gardener's Chronicle, there appeared an article from the pen of Professor Lindley, which strongly urged the necessity of considering the subject, re-
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minding them that the month of March was approaching, and that no time was to be lost in taking measures to procure an extensive cultivation throughout the two countries. Whether that would be restricted to merely the green crops, or should extend to wheat, or other such grain, it was not for him to say; but that seed should be supplied to Ireland, and the people set to work in cultivating the land, was the proposition which he deemed it his duty to bring before the House, and to press on the attention of Her Majesty's Government. The grand jury of the county of Longford had passed a resolution on the subject, which he would read to the House:—
"We call on the Government and the Commissioners to allow the relief committees to employ on the land those now wasting labour and money on the roads, reminding them that the time for such employment will have passed, and our prospects for the next year be left more dreary than at present."
He believed it was the intention in various parts of Ireland to follow up this resolution by resolutions from other bodies to the same effect. There was a perfect unanimity amongst all classes, that the cultivation of the land should be taken in hand by Government, otherwise the scarcity of next season would be worse than anything they had yet experienced. He called the attention of the House to a letter written by the rector of Cong, the Rev. Mr. Moore, who stated that the people there say, "We should not fear anything if we had seed." He also called the attention of the House to a communication received from a Catholic clergyman in the county of Roscommon, with reference to the want of seed. In some districts, however, it would not be necessary to put the system which he proposed the Government should adopt in operation. In some, and he believed in many districts, private exertions would be available for the purpose. He could mention one case where that had already occurred, and which he had seen noticed in an Irish paper on the preceding day. He thought it right to mention the name of the individual who had set so laudable an example. He resided in the county of Meath; his name was Brenan, he held the lands of Rahane and Clonsilla, and he had announced that he would give premiums for the best and second best cultivation of every acre of oats that his tenants should undertake. In some parts of Ireland the suggestions which he sought to press on the Ministry and the House

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would be inapplicable, for the people in distress at Skibbereen were too much reduced by famine to be fitted for labour; but in other parts of the country, where as yet they were only on the road to the frightful state of things that existed in Skibbereen, they had not fallen so low as to be unable to work. Several of those persons were now working on roads, which in the absence of any other occupation was useful as affording the means of living; but it would be desirable if, instead of being engaged in cutting up the roads, they could be sent to cultivate the land, and thus afford them some chance of having a supply of food. He thought that some assurance should be given by the Government that when men were taken off the works to cultivate their holdings, that they should be ensured the possession of the crops. In some parts of Ireland the people made it a pretext for the non-cultivation of their land, that if they did so the landlords would seize upon the whole of the produce, and leave them as poor as ever. He thought that Government could provide for this under the provisions of the Labour-rate Act, so that the tenants could be ensured the enjoyment of their crops. Some hon. Gentlemen might think that his proposition was too large a scheme for the Government, and that it would ensure a much larger expenditure than any yet spoken of. That such a course would be advantageous was the opinion of many well acquainted with Ireland, and that the money now expended would be less thrown away in the cultivation of the soil than in the present mode of expenditure. It had been suggested in another place by a noble Lord, who was entitled to respect, as well from his own character as from his high station, that the tendency of the relief ought to be such as to make Ireland rely on herself for the future. Such observations might induce the House to abstain from giving further aid, for the destitution, he feared, was much greater than was anticipated. The people of Ireland had nothing to look to as a resource, for their whole capital had been destroyed by the failure of the crops. The right hon. Secretary for Ireland had estimated the amount of loss by the calamity at 17,000,000 l.; but this was not the only loss, for the seed for the present season had also in a great measure been destroyed, or been consumed and dispersed. To such an extent also had the resources of the people been wasted, that they had parted with the manure for
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the cultivation of the soil. He would not venture to estimate in money the amount to be added to the 17,000,000 l. of loss; but he would ask the House to recollect that all that had been done to meet this was the 10,000,000 l. proposed to be given by the Government. To meet so large a gap there was nothing to be depended on in Ireland. If they looked to the landlords, they would find that the employment given by them in ordinary years would not be sufficient to employ any great number of labourers so as to afford sensible relief. He believed also that not one-half of the rents of Ireland had been paid this year; and with such diminished funds would they throw the charge on the landlords to supply the deficiency beyond the ten millions? There had been a great deal of talk in the newspapers respecting an increase in the deposits in the savings banks; but it would be found that the chief part of this had been placed there by persons preparing to emigrate. He must express his heartfelt satisfaction and gratification at the munificent charity which had been displayed in this country for the relief of the destitute people of Ireland; but it was impossible to suppose that private charity could supply the vacuum that existed in the amount that would be required. But when he looked with satisfaction at the private charity which had taken place in England, he could not allude without a feeling of pride to the subscriptions which had been made by the poor emigrant Irish in North America, and which amounted to the large sum of 200,000 l. The question, however, was, how was the large deficiency to be supplied? He would suggest a mode by which two or three millions more a year might be spent in Ireland without injury to any one. He alluded to the absentee landowners, who by their present conduct acted as soldiers did who run away from an army while engaged in the face of the enemy. He could not understand why the Government, or the House, who naturally were anxious to provide means for the relief of the destitution with as little burden on the public funds as possible, did not resort to some measure with respect to the absentees. There were five or six millions going out of Ireland every year, the expenditure of which, he thought, could be ensured in that country, if the House passed a strong resolution, calling upon the proprietors of land, at least for the present year, to return to their country and do their duty. He wished to throw out these matters for

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the consideration of the House and the Government; and he trusted that, before they passed the Bills on the Table, they would see whether they could not embody some of them in these measures. With respect to the state of the absentee property, he would refer the House to a statement which had appeared in the most recent Irish papers:—
"The Upper Leyney Committee (county Sligo), the Dean of Achonry, chairman, have anticipated the relief Bills. The district contains 97,000 acres, with 30,000 inhabitants, of whom two-thirds are destitute. Five hundred families get soup daily, and 1,000 families meal gratuitously weekly. In all cases of destitutes having land, and employed in cultivating it, an allowance is made of two pounds of meal and two quarts of soup daily, so long as they are at the loss of their wages on the public works, if occupied in sowing the land. Only on the estate of Mrs. Armstrong, of Chaffpool, has seed been provided from the commissariat depôt, and therefore there are active preparations made for cropping. Proprietors worth from 3,000 l. to 8,000 l. a year have not given a shilling, and it is only the resident proprietors who are doing their duty nobly in other parts of their estates, who have contributed at all. The largest proprietor in the district (an absentee) has, within the year, contributed one farthing in the pound of his rental in the district; and the smallest proprietor (a resident) has given 15 s. in the pound."
Such a state of things ought not to be allowed to continue. He wished to suggest, in the first place, to the Government that they should furnish seed to such an extent as to enable the tenantry to proceed with the cultivation of the soil; and, secondly, that without changing any of the machinery now in existence for the employment of the people, that they should draw the people off the public works gradually, and put them on the land for the purpose of tillage. They had that night heard of new presentments having been made for public works; now instead of employing the people on them, and breaking up the land for roads, they should put them at once on the land. If the principle laid down in Mr. Labouchere's letter, and on which they had lately legislated, was applied more extensively, it would be attended with the most beneficial results. Under that Act it would be competent for the Government now to act, and employ the people in tillage instead of on the new presentments. The next suggestion which he would make was, that something should be done to make some provision between the landlord and tenant, so as to give some security to the tenants, by telling them that if they cultivated the land, they should have some security that the landlord should
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not be allowed to come down upon them and take away everything for rent. The next suggestion he would make was, that something should be done for the security of the tenant in the case of improvements. The last suggestion which he should make I was one of great importance, namely, that the landed proprietors should be compelled to go to the place of danger, and be made; to share in the general sufferings of the country, and they thus would have five or six millions more expended in the country, and that without any charge to the State.
MR. LABOUCHERE: Sir, I will say to the hon. Gentleman that I am not at all disposed to express any surprise, much less any censure, that he and other Irish Members should take the occasion, whenever the forms of the House allow it, to bring the subject of the condition of Ireland before the House. That condition, Sir, is so very calamitous, that I am not surprised that those Gentlemen take every opportunity of impressing it on the House and the public. But I trust the hon. Gentleman and the other Irish Members will do me the justice to admit that I have never attempted to underrate the importance of the crisis; and I will say that, in my opinion, if any circumstance was necessary at the present juncture to stimulate the Government or the Legislature to do everything in their power for the benefit of their Irish fellow-countrymen, it would be found in the patient endurance of calamities almost beyond human power to sustain which the suffering people of Ireland have manifested. I make this remark with reference to the general body of the Irish people; but I also refer particularly to the people of Connaught and the west coast of Ireland, where the distress has been almost inconceivably great. Sir, the hon. Gentleman has made to the House certain distinct proposals, adapted as he considers for the amelioration of the present fate of the Irish people. Now, I feel that it is the duty of a Government, when proposals of this kind are made to them, to state distinctly what is their opinion upon those proposals. Doubtful, ambiguous language which may lead to misconceptions of the intention of Government, is not true humanity on such an occasion, but it is most likely to lead to deplorable results. I trust, therefore, that it will not be thought inconsistent with true humanity an the part of the Government, or with an anxious desire to do good to Ireland, that I am every day more convinced that it is not merely not the duty

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of the Government to do for Ireland that which the hon. Gentleman has pointed out as the proper course for us to pursue, but that it is not possible or practicable if we wished it. Under the circumstances of this peculiar case, the Government and this country have taken an unusual and extraordinary course, that it would have been totally unjustifiable for any Government to have taken under other circumstances. Following in the steps of our predecessors, we have attempted to employ the people of Ireland—a task which is beyond and not belonging to the functions of the Government, and which no Government could carry into effect without an abundance of abuses and many evils arising. For my own part, I beg to say that I entered on that course not blind to the inevitable rise of those abuses and evils, and I ventured to point out what those abuses and evils would be; but, nevertheless, I thought it was best upon the whole to adopt that course for the relief of those miseries of Ireland which I thought it was impossible for any Government of this country, in the nineteenth century, to sit by and see increasing without some attempt at relieving. Sir, I do not regret that we did so. I know now that the attention of the House and of the public has been aroused to the state of Ireland; that if we had allowed pestilence and famine to walk unchecked and without any attempt to impede them, in my opinion there would have been a cry of indignation and horror from one end of the country to the other, condemning the Government for having pursued that course. But circumstances have occurred that have rendered it impracticable to go on with the present system of public works. The first consideration is, that they have grown to such a magnitude as to have become wholly uncontrollable and unmanageable. My noble Friend told you the other night that we were now doing what I believe is unprecedented in the history of the world, employing no fewer than 700,000 persons on public works, controlled and paid by a central body; and here let me stop for a moment to do that justice which has not yet been fully done to a most deserving public body—the Board of Works in Ireland. I believe that nothing but the unwearied diligence, the spirit, energy, and activity of the officers of that board would have enabled them to discharge the duties set before them; they have managed by incessant exertions and the most anxious care to keep the system in good order without
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any general or manifest abuse; but it has not been possible wholly to accomplish that object. The hon. Member for Kilkenny has adverted to a most momentous subject. We have arrived at a time when labour must be applied to the cultivation of the soil in Ireland, if we do not mean to see the same events as at present occurring next year. I have no hesitation in saying that the employment of this great body of people on the public works is inconsistent with cultivating the soil. Every account from Ireland convinces me that there would have been no possibility of getting the people to apply themselves to the cultivation of the soil if the system of public works were continued. Have we then attempted to do that? Not at all; we have substituted another system for the system of public works, which we believe is more calculated to meet the evils of the present time; and we have asked the House to agree to a system, not of supplying labour, but of supplying food to the great body of the people. The Irish Government are now employed in arranging those complicated measures which are necessary to carry out that altered system. Do I say that the new system is not liable to abuse? I do not. I am satisfied that the Government will find some evils to arise out of their attempt to supply food, as they found some to arise out of their attempt to supply labour to the people. It cannot be otherwise, because it is not within the functions of a Government to supply food any more than employment to its subjects. There will be great abuse, I am convinced; but it is no reason because there will be abuse that we are not to do what we can for the relief of the evils of Ireland; and I believe that from the system last adopted, there will, on the whole, be found to arise the least amount of evil with the greatest amount of benefit. The House may depend upon it we shall do all we can to prevent abuse; and, in doing that, we shall be assisted by the relief commiteee, at the head of which is Sir J. Burgoyne, who with such devotion tendered his services to the Government—we shall do all we can to check abuse; but I should not deal fairly with the House if I said that I expected we shall be able to feed the great mass of the people without abuses, any more than we were able to employ the people without abuses. My excuse is this, that it is not fit for a Christian Government or a Christian Legislature to see their fellow-creatures swept

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from the land by famine and pestilence without doing what they could to check and control the progress of the calamity. But the hon. Gentleman asks us to cultivate the soil of Ireland by the direct interference of the Government. I will deal frankly with the hon. Gentleman, and tell him that would be impossible. I believe the attempt—for it would be only an attempt—to do it would lead to failure, and would paralyse the energies of Ireland. Indeed, it would be nothing but a failure. I think, therefore, it most fair to him and other Irish Gentlemen to say at once, that I altogether decline, on the part of the Government, to undertake that which is altogether beyond the functions of a Government, and could only lead to mischief. I say the same with respect to the supply of seed. To supply seed to a whole people, is that which no Government can undertake to do. I say that the provision of seed on the part of the Government would cripple private enterprise, and lead to irreparable mischief. I have had remonstrances and letters from all parts of Ireland from seedsmen, in respect to the seeds for green crops, of which they have laid in great stocks; large quantities of seeds of this kind have been accumulated in the principal towns of Ireland to meet the spring demand; and that I regard as a most striking instance of what can be done by individual exertions, as contrasted with what a Government can do in a question of this kind. With regard to the cultivation of the soil, it is impossible to overrate the importance of making every effort for preparing the soil for the crops. I believe that in many parts of Ireland every exertion is made by the landlords in order to encourage their tenants to cultivate and sow the land; but I am sorry to be obliged to agree with the hon. Member for Kilkenny, that there are parts of Ireland where, I fear, that duty will be neglected. I know very well what is the crippled condition of many Irish proprietors just at present; I know that it is unjust to ask them to do that which it is impossible they should do at the present moment; but I hope that both from motives of present interest and of patriotism they will be willing to do that which is in their power for the encouragement of their tenants in this respect. When we consider how much of Ireland is held in small holdings, and how many there are who have lost the whole of their small stock of potatoes, and how incapable they are of obtaining seed, I do hope that every
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exertion will be made in their favour by the Irish proprietors. I do not, however, rely entirely on that; but I hope that what the Government has already done with the sanction of the House, will produce a very considerable effect. The principle of that measure is, that relief shall no longer be given in wages, but in food; and I hope that the result of it will be, that men who have received that food which is to sustain them, will go either on to their own land, or on to the land of the farmer, and there endeavour, for wages, to earn their future subsistence; and I do assure the House, that it will be the business of the Government to endeavour to ascertain the real circumstances of those who apply to them for relief in food, and to take care, as far as they can, that the population shall not neglect the cultivation of the land for an attendance upon the soup-kitchen. I think it would be most dangerous that the population of Ireland should be encouraged to live in idleness; but I think they will feel they ought to labour when at the public charge they have been receiving food in order to enable them to subsist in the meantime. I will read to the House an extract from a letter which happened to be put into my hands just before I came down, as I think it will illustrate the manner in which checking the public works will operate. Major Fitzgerald, inspecting officer of relief in the county of Clare, says, in his report of the week ending Saturday, February 27, 1847, with respect to the baronies of Upper Tulla and Upper Bunralty:—
"For the first time I have the pleasure of reporting that this week I have seen tillage in progress in my district. Some of the workmen have left the roads to sow their wheat and oats. I am aiding this salutary movement in every way I can. I have struck off from the relief lists, this week, upwards of 1,200 names, and shall probably get rid of more next week. Two of the committees have complained to me, that, in consequence of the public works, there is a difficulty in getting horses for farm labour. I have requested the engineers to dispense as much as possible with horse labour."
Sir, I do not know that I need trespass further on the patience of the House; but the hon. Gentleman reminds me that I have not referred yet to what he said on the subject of absenteeism. I assure him that I am not more in love with absenteeism than he is. There are many absentees, however, some of whom I have the honour of knowing, that most honourably have done their duty; but I will not compare anything that can be done by an absentee

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with that which it is in the power of a resident Irish landlord to do, for he is able to encourage and support those around him both by his example and his advice. Some absentee landlords, I am bound to say, sadly and shamefully neglect their duty; and I know many instances, like those mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, where the resident proprietors have come forward with their time and their money to assist their distressed neighbours, and where they have owners of a very considerable property held in the district who refuse to come forward with anything whatever to relieve the destitute of the place. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I agree with him in thinking that the proper place for an Irish landlord, under the present circumstances of that country, is in Ireland; but I must say, that if a sense of their duty to their dependents and of their public duty to their country does not operate with them to produce that effect, I am afraid that a resolution of this House would have very little efficacy to bring about that result. With respect to the question of landlord and tenant, I have to say that the Government has attended to the subject of the improvement of the relations between landlord and tenant; and though I do not adopt the notions of the hon. Gentleman, I am fully aware that it is a subject of vast importance, and I can assure him that it is one that has not escaped the attention of the Government. Before I sit down I may say that I have very great satisfaction in finding that many proprietors in Ireland are entering into engagements with their tenants for advancing them seed, in order to enable them to cultivate their small holdings, the tenants being bound to give them a lien on the next crop. I think that is an admirable arrangement, and I hope the landlords will adopt it extensively. I think it will not be prudent to touch such a subject by means of a legal enactment, for I am convinced it will be much better to leave it to be arranged between the landlord and tenant; and I certainly hope that the arrangements I have mentioned will be extensively adopted in Ireland. I can assure the hon. Gentleman that the subjects to which he has referred have deeply engaged the attention of the Government; and if I do not adopt his suggestions it is because I do not think it would be for the interests of Ireland that the Government should do so, these not being questions in which a Government can profitably interfere.
MR. SHAWsaid, that he should have concurred with the hon. Gentleman (Mr. J. O'Connell), who had introduced the discussion, on the advisability of employing the labouring population, now engaged on the public works in Ireland, in the tillage of the land, were it only practicable. He must, however, frankly say that he did not think it was practicable; but that, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) had stated, if the Government made any such attempt, it could only lead to disappointment, and result in failure. The duties of the present board had been sufficiently onerous and complicated in administering the public works of Ireland; but what would these difficulties be, if a board were appointed for the public farming of the entire country? So with regard to seed, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Labouchere), that to give seed corn on a scale commensurate with the wants of Ireland would be impossible; and to hold out the hope could only raise expectations which could not be realized, and would tend to paralyse individual exertions. Before he sat down, he must advert to a subject which had been urged upon the Government in the early part of the evening, in the shape of not very regular questions—he meant the proposition of the hon. Member for Montrose, and other hon. Members—that the Government should name an early day simultaneously and peremptorily to put a stop to the public works throughout Ireland. Such a step would be fraught with the utmost cruelty and danger. Did those hon. Members consider, that if, as the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had stated that night, there were 700,000 men employed upon those works, that made about three millions of persons depending upon the wages earned at those works for their subsistence; and if that was suddenly stopped, what was to become of that mass of persons? He had lately received a letter from a very active chairman of a relief committee—an extract from which, bearing on the point of that difficulty of transition from the public works to the ordinary occupations of the people, and also as to the increasing distress amongst them, was as follows:—
"I do not believe there is any labour relief committee in Ireland which has found the smallest difficulty in supplying the farmers with labourers from those they had not room for on the public works. We could certainly have done so here, even where no cottier tenantry exist. Every one who knows the state of things in this country is unable to understand how that enormous surplus

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labour population is to find employment. Occasional days will not do: a man cannot even half live, which is all they are able to do now, without weekly wages. The distress has greatly increased—the people have used every means to keep afloat; pawned every article they possessed, almost to their clothes. They then went in debt—now all fails them—every saleable article is gone—so is their credit, and this while the public works are going on."
Again—
"Any one who has had practical experience of relief committees, knows the almost insurmountable difficulty of selecting proper objects for recommendation to the public works; but now that the temptation to fraud will be so much greater, that difficulty will be considerably increased, and I believe almost every man, woman, and child in the district will apply for relief—and not consider it a disgrace to exist upon charity."
The whole case was indeed truly difficult of solution. It would be ungracious to blame the Government, who, he believed, had done their utmost to meet the emergency. He cordially joined with the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. J. O'Connell) in acknowledging the munificent liberality of the people of England. He was glad that the hon. Member had referred to the proceedings of a committee in Sligo, presided over by the Dean of Achonry, in which ample justice was done to the exertions of the resident gentry of Ireland, where it was stated—and he was persuaded it was but a fair sample of the country generally—that not less than fifteen shillings in the pound of their incomes had, one way or other, been lately spent in alleviating the sufferings by which they were surrounded. It was true that the Labour-rate Act on which they had been acting, and the Temporary Relief Act that was then substituted for it, had been open to many theoretical objections, and were necessarily exposed to many practical abuses; but it had not been a matter of choice: dire necessity was their justification; and if that was said to be the tyrant's plea, famine had been the tyrant, and it had driven them to the alternative of adopting some such measures to satisfy the exigency of the moment, or of suffering thousands—it might be millions—of the people to perish of want. He could only again say, in conclusion, that he could not in fairness attempt to fix upon the Government the responsibility of tilling or sowing the land in Ireland: he could only hope that the relief committees might be able to stimulate the people to the cultivation of the soil, and to adopt such means as might best help them through the present calamitous crisis.
MR. M. BELLEWsaid, that when the Poor Law was passed it would do more than anything else for the improvement of Ireland; and he could not concur in the suggestions of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, believing that his proposals were impracticable, and that if they were practicable they were not desirable. The difficulty of any arrangement between landlord and tenant would be a great obstacle to any such works as were now proposed from being carried on. He was not one who thought that the public works had been altogether unserviceable; and if they were, all were responsible for them, and not the Government alone. The present calamity was like a fire or an inundation; and therefore it was fair to do all in their power to relieve it: this, in his opinion, had been done by the 10,000,000 l., and he did hope that, though they did not accede to this suggestion, the quantity of land which would remain untitled would be very small.
MR. FITZGERALDthought that the people employed should be changed from the public works and turned upon the land. It must be three weeks or a month before the Bills now before the House would become law; and in the interval he asked whether it would not be better to employ the people in tilling the land than in unproductive works? Every one who had heard the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, was convinced that the Government had done their utmost to benefit the people of Ireland; but it would be impossible for the greatest exertions of the landlords to make up for what was lost; and he thought that the Relief Commissioners should have power to select works on the land, and he did not see any difficulty in taking a certain number of hands from the public works and securing the crops for the present year. In a letter, dated the 1st of March, it was stated that the land for ten miles round Limerick, on both sides of the road, was uncultivated; and it was not too late now to supply the deficiency, though it would be if they waited till all the Bills passed. Then, with respect to a supply of seed, he thought that desirable, because the farmers had been living on their seed corn, on the faith that the Government would render assistance. The resident landlords had done all in their power, and more than they could well afford, to relieve the distress. He regretted that the non-resident had not equally assisted, for he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that no sum they

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could send to Ireland could compensate the Irish tenantry for their non-residence; and he would compel all the landlords to reside during the next six months on their estates, and not leave those who were resident alone to contend with the distress.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I have nothing to add to the statement made by my right hon. Friend; but the argument used by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, for the purpose of inducing Her Majesty's Government to reconsider the proposal of the hon. Member for Kilkenny, induces me to rise, not so much to attempt to argue the question, but to declare what is the opinion and determination of Her Majesty's Government upon this subject. The hon. Gentleman expressed a hope that we should interfere, and should undertake the tillage and sowing of the land. He says that this is the time, and that very soon the opportunity will be lost. At the same time the hon. Gentleman gives us what I should think was a very strong warning against taking such a course, by stating what has been the effect of the determination I some time ago declared, that 50,000 l. should be given for seed. I had hoped that the small amount of that sum would obviously only be applied to particular cases; and, as the noble Lord opposite said it would not buy 25,000 quarters of oats, that it would prevent any extravagant hopes being raised. But the hon. Gentleman says, that numbers of farmers have consumed their seed corn, believing that they might obtain seed from the Government. If such were the result of that declaration, what would be the effect if the Government were to say that the tillage and sowing of the land of Ireland should be undertaken by the Government? Would it not put an immediate stop to all the ordinary means of tillage at this moment? Would not every farmer and labourer wait, expecting that the Government would undertake the whole? and the number of 1,100 officers, even if they were multiplied ten times, would be found unable to undertake so gigantic an operation. And what would be the end of our proposing to do so? I think it is therefore necessary that the intention of the Government should be understood. We lament very much that in certain instances, in certain districts, tillage has not proceeded; but I have still a great hope that that tillage will be found much more general than hitherto expected; but the only ground upon which I rest that opinion is the well-understood intention of the Government
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not to interfere, expecting the landlords, farmers, and labourers, will undertake the tillage and sowing of the land for themselves. I will not now enter into the question of absentees, and other subjects, thinking it better to discuss them when they come more immediately before the House.
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, he had no intention of detaining the House; but he felt bound to say, he concurred fully in one sentiment which had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Secretary for Ireland, namely, that sufficient justice had not been done to the gentlemen who composed the Board of Works. Really, when the House considered the immense, and complicated, and onerous duties these gentlemen had to perform—when it considered the enormous responsibility connected with the superintendence of more than 700,000 labourers—the tendency to abuse, and, on the whole the quiet and orderly conduct of so large a mass, it was impossible not to feel that the highest praise was due to these gentlemen for their ability and conduct on such an emergency. He was anxious also to state, that he concurred fully in the opinions expressed by the noble Lord who had just sat down, and the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, in respect of the inexpediency of Government undertaking to employ people to till the land in Ireland. He knew there was a strong feeling on this subject in that country; but when the Government came forward and declared their intention of taking a course which might be unpopular in refusing to till the land, because they thought that an opposite course would really aggravate the evils of the country, he, entertaining the same opinion, felt bound to get up and say so, and take his share of the unpopularity of such a statement. He had no doubt, in his own mind, that if Government was to announce an intention of undertaking works of tillage, the effect would be to paralyse and suspend the tillage of the country, instead of promoting it. The right hon. Gentleman had recommended arrangements being made between landlords and tenants, by which the landlord might till the tenant's land for him, and repay himself in harvest. He believed there was a disposition on the part, both of landlords and tenants, in many parts of Ireland, to make such arrangements. He was afraid, however, the lands were untilled to a much greater extent than some hon. Members seemed to imagine. He had himself a great many letters on the sub-

979
ject; but he would not detain the House by reading them. But where tenants would not consent to make arrangements with their landlords, there were great difficulties in the way; and there was also another class of cases which he feared would be found numerous in the west of Ireland, he meant cases in which cottier tenants or small farmers abandoned their land altogether. In none of these cases had the landlord or any parties the power of entering upon the lands so abandoned. The law did not afford the means of doing so by any easy process. Now, he thought something might be done to meet those cases. He knew it was a difficult matter, and he would be sorry to give any advantage as against the poor cottier at a time like the present; but he thought a power should rest somewhere, either in the landlord or in the relief committee, or in the petty sessions, to let the land so abandoned for the next crop, perhaps to the adjoining farmer, as conacre for the tenant; and that after next harvest a certain portion of the crop should be apportioned to him as a payment for the use of the land.
MR. B. ESCOTTwas quite sure, that all those hon. Members who had listened to the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, would give him credit for his anxiety to do everything that was in his power to mitigate the distressing evils which at present pressed upon the people of Ireland. He must, however, say that the longer he had been listening to these painful details, the more was he inclined to make up his mind to the conclusion, that, instead of any extraordinary measures of this kind being calculated to confer any real or permanent benefit upon Ireland, they were more likely to do harm than good. He was inclined to believe, from all that he had heard, that the only true measure to which they could trust, was that of giving every facility to the importation of food from all parts of the world. They should also inculcate the absolute necessity of observing the strictest economy upon all classes of the community in the consumption of food. That part of the subject was, he believed, not considered with that care which it deserved. The hon. Member for Kilkenny said, with the utmost apparent sincerity, that they could not economise in Ireland. [Mr. J. O'CONNELL: I said we have nothing to economise.] Yes; but they had something to economise. Did they not know that every bushel of wheat made into wheaten bread
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might be extended to double the quantity if it were made into a much more wholesome and nutritious article of subsistence? Would not that be economy? Those who had examined this subject, stated that they could make from two bushels of wheat, by economical management, as much and more nutritious bread, than was generally made by the ordinary mode out of three bushels. They would be thus saving at least one-third of the wheat that was at present generally consumed in bread. The House must acknowledge that a saving by this means of one-third of this farinaceous food would be the greatest blessing that could possibly be conferred upon the inhabitants of Ireland. It was one of the most admirable dispensations of Nature, that the most wholesome food from wheat was made by the waste known by the name of wheat-bran when brought into the manufacture of bread. The coarsest of bran with the finest of flour made the best and most wholesome bread that man could consume. When they considered that last Monday wheat was 76 s. a quarter in Mark-lane, the necessity for adopting this course was the greater, so that the present scarcity might not be still further aggravated.
Subject at an end.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
MR. RICEtook the opportunity of reminding the Government of the propriety of improving their harbours, particularly upon the southern coast of England. The French Government had proved themselves very active in this respect, in the improvements that had been recently effected in Calais and other harbours. He trusted that that feeling of pride for their naval superiority would induce the Government to devote their immediate attention to this subject. He knew he would be told that this was not the time for entertaining such a subject, because of the vast expenditure that they were obliged to encounter under the present disastrous state of Ireland; but he still did not think that this subject could be with safety much longer delayed, and he could only express his surprise that it had not been before attended to.

SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
House in a Committee of Supply.
COLONEL ANSONsaid, that in moving the Ordnance Estimates for the service of the ensuing year, he wished it had been in his power to propose estimates more in accordance, with the views of the hon. Gen-

981
tleman the Member for Coventry, than those before the House; but he hoped that that hon. Member would not give an unwilling assent to them, provided he could show that they were both necessary and unavoidable. He was a strong advocate for economy; and however blameable it might be at any time to disregard that principle, it would be peculiarly so at the present moment, when there were so many demands upon the country. He believed, however, that there was as much economy in the application of means as in providing them. On a former occasion, the hon. Member for Montrose had said, that he would allow these estimates to pass without objection; he taking it as a matter of course that they must follow the Navy and Army Estimates; and that he would content himself with entering a protest against them: he would, however, assure the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Williams), who represented the hon. Member for Montrose, that he had no wish to avail himself of that forbearance; but that if any hon. Member objected to any one of the items, he hoped to be able satisfactorily to prove, that these estimates had not been prepared without due consideration and every regard to economy, and the efficiency of the service. The gross estimate for the ensuing year for the ordnance service, was 2,679,157 l.; for 1846–7, it was 2,543,569 l.—the increase, therefore, was 135,588 l. It would be seen, on reference to the notes in the abstract of the votes, that with regard to three items a considerable reduction had been made last year, in order to have a better arrangement, by only voting for the service of the year a sum of money actually to be paid within the year. The reduction so made, amounted to 67,299 l.; and he thought he had a right to deduct that sum from the apparent increase over the last year, and that would leave only 68,289 l. as the actual increase. The first vote he should ask from the House was for the pay, allowances, and contingencies of the ordnance military corps. That vote was 617,239 l. For 1846–7, it was 575,675 l.; being an increase of 41,564 l. Under that head were three services—the engineers, the sappers and miners, and the corps of royal artillery. Upon the first of these, there appeared to be an increase of 5,928 l. That did not arise from any increase in the establishment, but from the additional employment of the engineer officers; and it was unnecessary for him to say, that when those officers were employed or called upon
982
to undertake public duties, their efficiency was such that he believed, notwithstanding the expense, the public were fully compensated by the great utility of their service, and the knowledge and experience they displayed in it. It being a matter of notoriety, that whether in peace or in war the corps of engineers were pre-eminent for all those qualities which could be applied to useful purposes, he was confident that there was no Member of that House, nor any person out of it, who would grudge them the remuneration which was due to their merits. He might say as much for the sappers and miners; or, perhaps, more. This body was composed of most intelligent men, who applied themselves most assiduously to the discharge of their duties, and were equal to any service which they might be called upon to perform. There was only a trifling increase in the present estimate under this head. The sum required for the artillery exceeded that voted last year by between 30,000 l. and 40,000 l. The increase had been caused in this way: his noble Friend the Master General of the Ordnance thought it advisable that the number of the artillery force should be increased; and the Government, acting on his recommendation, had not hesitated to sanction the addition of 1,200 men for that purpose. The arrangement was now in progress. The recruiting was going on, and he was happy to state that no difficulty was experienced in getting men fit for the service; on the contrary, recruits of a better description were being raised than had ever before entered the service. In order to carry out the arrangement as economically as possible, it had been determined that the increase in the number of men should be unaccompanied by any increase in the number of officers. The number of men provided for by the vote of last year, was 8,222; that to be provided for this year, was 9,432. It was not probable that this number of men for the artillery would be deemed to bear an extravagant proportion to the whole military force of the country. Indeed, taking into consideration the various duties which the artillery corps were called upon to perform at home, as well as in our numerous and extensive colonies, it was a matter of astonishment that so small a body was able to meet the exigencies of the service. Still they had done so, and, it would be admitted, most efficiently. It must be borne in mind, that there was no prospect of the services of this corps being diminished in severity. The Government

983
had found it necessary to direct their attention to the improvement of our home defences, by adding to the efficiency of our internal and seaport fortifications. He trusted that no circumstances would arise to make manifest the necessity of having recourse to these measures; but, nevertheless, as the increase of fortifications had been determined on, there must be a corresponding augmentation in the number of men to man them. If, as he hoped, no occasion should arise to test the wisdom of the measure, with reference to the circumstance at which he had merely glanced, the increase in the number of the artillery corps would, nevertheless, be productive of advantage, by the facilities it would afford of extending the system of reliefs to foreign stations, which was essential to the efficiency of the service. The second vote was for commissariat and barrack supplies for the land forces, and great coats and clothing for the army. The sum required under this head, was 370,464 l.; that voted last year, was 340,881 l., making an increase this year of 29,483 l. This increase was susceptible of easy explanation. It was attributable to the increased charge for commissariat supplies, and also to the great advance which had taken place in the price of forage for cavalry horses. The price of rations was 3d. a head more in Ireland, and 1½d. more in England, than it was last year. The excess of charge on the commissariat supplies, as compared with last year, amounted to 33,652 l., and on barrack furniture, 2,000 l., making a total excess of 35,652 l. Under the head of great coats and colonial clothing, a considerable diminution of charge appeared in the present estimates; amounting to no less than 25,142 l., as compared with the charge for that item last year. Deducting that decrease from the sum previously mentioned, namely, 35,652 l., an actual increase remained of 10,507 l. But one-twelfth of the sum required for commissariat supplies not having been voted last year, an excess was occasioned this year of 18,976 l., which caused a total increase on the estimate for 1847–8 of 29,483 l. In point of fact, however, had it not been for the unavoidable excess this year of 33,652 l. for commissariat supplies, occasioned by the extraordinary rise in the price of provisions, there would have been a considerable diminution in this vote. There was also an increase in this vote of 7,000 l. for increased issue of fuel to the troops, which had been last year the subject of
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some remarks in that House; and it would also be seen that there was a larger sum required by 4,150 l. for the actual quantity of coals, &c. for barracks in Great Britain and Ireland, arising from the increase of price in that article beyond that of last year. The third vote was 96,447 l. for salaries in the ordnance offices in the Tower and Pall Mall. It was unnecessary to trouble the Committee with many observations upon this vote. Objections had sometimes been made to the establishments, on the ground of their being more extensive than was requisite; but, speaking from his own experience, he could say that the objection was not well founded. The clerks employed in the offices were most efficient, and devoted the whole of their time to the service of the public. There was a small increase in this vote, amounting to 1,544 l., which was accounted for chiefly by the introduction into the Tower of the metropolitan police force, to supersede the old system of watching. Any person who was acquainted with that locality, must be aware that the alteration which had been made in this respect was a considerable improvement. Vote 4 was 228,130 l. for the establishments at home and abroad. There was an actual decrease on this vote, as compared with last year, of 2,035 l.; but to show this, it was necessary to take into account 7,129 l. for one-fourth of the ordnance salaries at foreign stations not voted last year, which caused an apparent increase in the total vote for 1847–8 of 5,105 l. The sum called for in Vote 5 was 137,852 l. for the wages of artificers and labourers employed at the several establishments in the United Kingdom and colonies. The sum required under this head last year was 125,392 l., which was less than the present vote by 12,460 l. The augmentation this year was caused by the increased number of artificers employed at Woolwich on naval and other equipments, and likewise by an increased expenditure at the Cape of Good Hope, arising out of the Caffre war. The increase which had taken place in other branches of the public service necessarily occasioned an increase in this department. It had been found necessary to augment the numerical strength of the laboratory and the carriage department at Woolwich. This department had been reduced too low before, and under the peculiar circumstance of the time, it was absolutely necessary to get up arrears. Vote 6 was for ordnance stores. The sum required for this item last year was 390,184 l.; that for this

985
year was 368,712 l., showing a decrease of 21,472 l. It might appear contradictory of the observations which he had made with reference to the last vote, that a smaller sum was required for ordnance stores this year, than was called for last year. The fact, however, was, that very large sums had been voted of late years for ordnance stores. In 1847 no less than 225,493 l. was appropriated to that purpose. He believed that those votes were necessary, but still the ample provision made for the public service under this head, in former years, gave the Government an opportunity of calling for a much smaller amount on the present occasion; and that circumstance explained the diminution in the charge for stores in the present estimate. The vote referred to a most important branch of the service. Nobody could suppose that the sum taken for the supply of small arms, namely, 120,000 l., was larger than was required, on account of the great change which had taken place in their structure. It was satisfactory to know that, with the exception of two or three regiments coming from abroad, the Army was now supplied with arms constructed on the new principle. A gradually increasing supply of arms would be kept up every year, but the stock would not be permitted to accumulate to the extent which was apparent at the close of the late war, when there were 700,000 or 800,000 muskets in store. For the supply of iron ordnance, shot, and shells, for land and sea service, the sum of 57,431 l. was required, being 7,431 l. more than was voted last year. Considerable changes were always taking place, as the hon. and gallant Admiral opposite knew, in the construction of ship guns. The authorities on this point never seem to have been agreed as to the description of guns which ought to be supplied to the Navy. He hoped that the present Board of Admiralty would take this into their serious consideration, and only sanction those alterations which were manifest improvements; and by acting upon this principle, the country would be saved a large, and, in some instances, perfectly useless expenditure of money. The next vote was No. 7, 632,765 l. for works, buildings, and repairs; the sum required under this head last year was 611,986 l., showing an increase in the present estimate of 620,779 l. The circumstances of the time had imposed upon the Government the necessity of considering the propriety of improving the defences and fortifications of the country. It must
986
be apparent that the substitution of steam for sailing vessels in the marine of foreign countries had placed England in a different position from that in which she formerly stood; and it was necessary we should be prepared to meet any emergency which might arise. The Government, being deeply impressed with the importance of these considerations, had exercised a wise discretion in the way in which they had appropriated the sum voted for the estimate at which he had now arrived. Formerly, it was the practice to expend large sums in colonial works; at present the money voted was to be principally expended on works at home. He would enumerate some of the items which were comprised in the present estimate: Purchase of land for defences for the dockyard at Pembroke, 20,000 l.; improvement of fortifications at Plymouth harbour, 9,805 l.; battery at Picklecombe Point, 9,000 l.; improvement of fortifications at Guernsey, Alderney, and Sark, 8,909 l.; Liverpool new battery, and site for new north battery, 4,000 l.; fortifications at Portsmouth, 11,638 l.; fortifications at Sheerness, 14,217 l.; about 5,000 l. for Bermuda, a most important position for the protection of our commerce, and as a naval station; 6,000 l. for rebuilding the sea wall at Demerara; 20,000 l. for works at Gibraltar; 8,700 l. for a new hospital at Grenada, which might appear a large sum, but was, in fact, the general hospital for the islands in those seas; 12,000 l. for the Ionian Islands; 12,000 l. for improving the fortifications at Malta; 5,000 l. for the Mauritius, also one of our most important colonial possessions; and 9,000 l. for completing the citadel at Halifax. A considerable sum had also been taken for barracks—30,000 l. for Preston, and 10,000 l. for a new barrack at Sheffield, which was most urgently required; and when they considered the demands that had been made upon the Government to improve the comforts and conveniences of barracks generally, and which had been attended to and followed out wherever the want was most apparent, he trusted the House would not disapprove of the vote which was now submitted to them. He must also mention the sum of 40,000 l. for the conversion of buildings to be used solely for the reception of soldiers convicted of military offences; and 5,000 l. for washing places in the barracks. The next vote to which he came was 58,986 l. for the expense of the scientific branch of the surveying department, being a

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decrease of 2,000 l. from the vote of last year. The question of the surveys of Ireland and Scotland had often been mooted in the House, and complaints were made from both countries. From Scotland the complaint was, that the whole amount voted for the survey was not expended there. This was true. Out of the 10,000 voted for Scotland, on an average not more than 3,000 l. had been appropriated. But the money was not spent in any other way; it was returned into the Treasury and was still available. There were good reasons why it had not been used; the fact was, the whole strength of the survey establishment was required in Ireland, it being deemed most necessary to carry out and complete the survey of that country; thus all their strength had been directed to Ireland instead of Scotland. The scale of the map of Ireland had given rise to much discussion; it had been proposed to give them a 1-inch map as well as the 6-inch one, which was now nearly completed. The smaller scale would be more convenient; but there was no doubt the larger one was superior in the degree of information it afforded. The opinions of scientific societies had been taken, and were decidedly in favour of the large map; but whether it should be left to the trade to reduce the maps to the scale of three, two, or one inch, according to convenience, or that the Government should undertake it, had only lately been decided in favour of the former course; and considering the large expense of the latter map, taking it upon themselves—namely, 60,000 l. at the lowest probable estimate—the House would probably concur in the propriety of their decision. In the vote for the scientific branch were included the expenses of the Royal Military Academy at Woolwich, in which there was no increase over last year. The next vote was for the non-effective services, military and civil, 168,532 l., showing an increase under this head of 48,073 l. in the present year. The civil non-effective service had exhibited a large diminution during the last ten years; but it had been accompanied by a corresponding addition to the military branch. He believed he had now stated all the estimates in the order in which they had been presented to the House. The increase in some of the items arose from unavoidable circumstances, such as the high price of provisions and forage. He knew that the expenses of this department had always excited observation; the
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total now was 2,679,127 l., while ten years ago it was 1,500,000 l. He thought it right, therefore, that the House should be made acquainted with the different services which had been thrown upon the ordnance department within the last few years. The board itself did not originate these expenses; it was called on to supply services transferred to them from other departments. In 1834, the whole sum demanded was 1,604,000 l.; in the present year, it was 1,000,000 l. more than that amount. Persons were naturally astonished at this large increase of expense; but it was entirely caused by expenditure thrown upon the board from other departments. Thus, in 1835–36, the commissariat was thrown upon it, involving an expense of 261,367 l.; in 1839–40, for works and repairs in the Ionian Islands, 24,000 l.; in 1842–43, for colonial barracks in Jamaica, 7,757 l., and barracks in Mauritius, 7,000 l.; at different periods various new establishments had been placed under the board, with an expense of 130,623 l.; in 1844–5, for black servants allowed to civil officers, 2,928 l.; in 1843–4, for hire of buildings and barrack accommodation in the colonies, 43,157 l. These two items were previously charged to the Treasury. In 1845–6, for clothing, &c., for colonial corps, 19,397 l.; pay of military librarians, 892 l.; lodging money to regimental officers at home, 3,000 l.; an item for great coats for men added to the line and artillery, in 1833–4, for surveys of counties, 15,000 l.; for providing buildings for soldiers convicted of military offences,40,000 l.; for wash-houses for soldiers in barracks, 5,000 l.; for additions to military corps in 1843–4, beyond the number in 1833–4, 171,108 l.; the amount expended in fortifications, works, and repairs in the present year, above the sum required for the same purpose in 1833–4, was 393,293 l. Taken with these additions, the vote for 1833–4 would amount to 3,026,348 l.; for this year, also including the charge for these additional services, the vote was 2,862,484 l.; the same services were, therefore, actually less this year than in 1834 by 163,864 l. The new stations that had been placed under the board since 1834 were the following: Sydney, Hobart Town, Toronto, Rideau Canal, Carillon, Graham's Town, St. Helena, Honduras, New Zealand, Hong Kong, Pembroke, Birmingham, Weedon, and Fort Garry; these created the before-mentioned item of 130,623 l. He wished to make one remark as to the appropria-
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tions in aid, contained in these estimates. He confessed he would much rather see none; he thought the produce of the sales of Ordnance property, instead of being appropriated to their current expenses, had far better be carried to the credit of the Treasury. He could not see any objection to this course; it would simplify the estimates, and, as the country would get the money, it would come to the same thing. He was sorry to have detained the House so long with details which might appear to many extremely dry; but they could not be uninteresting to those who watched the course of events both at home and abroad. It was essential to look into the details; and it would be readily acknowledged that no branch of the public service embraced more important, as well as essential and interesting duties. The hon. and gallant Officer concluded by moving a Vote of 617,239 l. for pay, allowances, and contingencies for 12,392 officers and men of the several Ordnance corps and departments for service at home and abroad; which having been put,
MR. WILLIAMSsaid, he should perhaps do better in letting these estimates pass without remark, as the hon. Member for Montrose did last year; they were called on to vote several millions, and during the greater part of the hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement there were only twenty-nine Members in the House. This proved how little interest was taken in the question, and how little encouragement there was for any one to point out what he conceived to be an uncalled-for expenditure. The hon. and gallant Officer had referred to the estimates of former years, and explained the increase by the new services that had been thrown upon the Ordnance Department. In 1834 the estimate was 1,068,000 l.; in 1835, 1,151,000 l.; in 1840, 1,893,000 l. Now, in 1840 England was engaged in the Chinese war, and had the largest naval force afloat she had had in any year since the peace; we had not less than seventeen sail of the line in the Mediterranean, all to be equipped from the Ordnance Department. He now asked the hon. and gallant Gentleman the same question he had put to the Secretary at War—what was the necessity for this great increase? He objected to the increase in the estimates for the artillery. This was, no doubt, an important branch of the service, and one which it was incumbent on them to have always in a most efficient state; but the estimate was much higher
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this year than it had been during twenty years, and some account should be given of the causes which had led to this change. He thought that difficulties would never cease to present themselves to the House when called upon to assent to the different estimates, if that rule which prevailed in France and in the United States were not adopted in England—if a Committee of Inquiry were not appointed to examine into and report upon every separate item.
SIR HOWARD DOUGLASsaid: I rejoice at the increase in the number of artillerymen, but think it very inadequate to the wants of the service. We have increased and improved our coast defences, mounted everywhere an immense number of additional pieces of ordnance, but our establishment of artillery is still utterly insufficient to man them, even with the smallest proportion of well-trained artillerists. Gunnery in another war will not be playing at bowls; and whatever expense we may go to in improving the material of our defences, the country will not be safe unless they are efficiently manned. I shall not name any particular places; but, in reply to the hon. Member for Sheffield, who asks an explanation as to the necessity of this increase of artillery, I will just advert to three points of defence—stations with which I am professionally well acquainted, and have had something to do. On one, there is mounted 329 pieces of ordnance; and how many artillerymen does the hon. Member think are there? Why, about half a man per gun! I advert to another, on which there are 175 pieces of ordnance at least, and there the proportion is about the same. I know of a foreign station on which there are 335 pieces of capital powerful ordnance mounted; and there are not half the number of men in that garrison. And then, the wants of the service in this respect in other parts of the world. When the native war commenced in New Zealand—a formidable war, which required absolutely a considerable artillery force, and for want of which we suffered severely—we had not, as I told the House at that time, a single artilleryman, nor a piece of field ordnance of any description in the whole of our colonies in that quarter. I trust that adequate additions may be made to this important branch of the service, without which all our other improvements will prove unavailing.
MR. GOULBURNthought, with the gallant Officer (Sir H. Douglas), that the

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increase in the artillery estimates had been unavoidable. Last year the Government reviewed the service, and undertook certain improvements, and the additional expense which was now submitted for consideration had been incurred in carrying out and perfecting the suggestions and experiments of the late Government. There was no doubt that the safety of the country had demanded the increase of which the hon. Member complained. He did not think that the gallant Officer would be able to carry out his views with respect to the manning of a more extensive scale of fortifications at home and abroad; to attempt the accomplishment of that which the gallant Officer evidently considered so desirable, would be altogether without the bounds of common prudence. He regretted that his gallant Friend did not think it advisable to resume those naval experiments which the Court of Admiralty, in 1845 and last year, had pursued with such benefit to the service. They could not ensure efficiency without trial of every plan, project, and recommendation appearing at all feasible; and it seemed to him that expense in such a manner was never more satisfactory. His gallant Friend gave great credit to the late Administration for the efforts they had made to amend the system of military imprisonment. Last year, 39,700 l. was taken for the express purpose of constructing military prisons. The sum of 40,000 l. was now proposed under the same head; and the gallant Officer would, perhaps, inform the House, why there was no evidence of the first sum having been expended in that way in which it had been intended, and why this 40,000 l. was again necessary? He (Mr. Goulburn) approved highly of the course which was to be taken in Canada. Last year the fears which prevailed that war might result from the dispute relative to the Oregon territory had required that every precaution should have been taken in providing for the safety of the North American colonies; but, by the good fortune of his noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen), this discussion had been amicably closed, and that expenditure which before it was incumbent on them to advise, could not this year be justified. He certainly regretted that, in respect to one work in Canada — the canal connecting Quebec with the upper provinces—there had been any economy practised. That canal, both in a military and commercial point of view, was a most important work, and its completion should not be neglected
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or postponed. The barracks at Jamaica should also have been built ere this; it was desirable that the troops in that colony should have that accommodation upon which the preservation of their health depended. He trusted the buildings would be completed without delay, and that no expense would be spared. The barracks at the Tower were publicly of less importance; but the troops required those improvements which had been suggested, and it was the imperative duty of the Government to make every exertion in caring for the comfort and amending the social condition of the soldier.
COLONEL ANSONreplied, with reference to the Administration not having thought it advisable to incur any further expenditure in trials and experiments in the Navy, that their objection was founded upon the supposition and belief that the late Government had left nothing in an inefficient state, and that consequently new experiments were not necessary. As to the 39,000 l. which had been voted last year for military prisons, he begged to inform the right hon. Gentleman that that sum had been devoted to the object, and that, as the estimate for the works was 100,000 l., the 40,000 l. which he now proposed to take would still be called for. The canal in Canada had not been deemed an undertaking of such paramount importance, and it had, therefore, for the present, been deferred, while they were engaged in the completion of other works. The sum taken for the barracks at Jamaica, would, he thought, be quite sufficient. Steps would be taken in regard to the barracks at the Tower as soon as possible.
DR. BOWRINGexpressed his dissatisfaction with the mode in which the accounts were presented, and hoped that this would be the last occassion on which they would appear in such a form.
MR. WILLIAMSthought the item in regard to the 9,000 men of the artillery required explanation.
COLONEL ANSONstated, that those men were divided among 53 stations at home and 34 abroad. The proportion of the artillery to the regular army did not approach one-eighth the proportion which Napoleon approved, and the soldiers in that branch required a longer training than in others.
Vote, with several others, agreed to.
On a Vote of 58,986 l. being proposed for the scientific branch of the Ordnance survey,
MR. SMOLLETTdirected the attention of the House to the fact that grants formerly voted for the ordnance survey in Scotland had not been expended; and he wished to know what guarantee there was that the sum now proposed for that purpose would be expended on the survey in Scotland?
COLONEL ANSONobserved, that sums granted for the survey in Scotland had not been expended in that country, because the survey had, since that time, been confined either to England or Ireland. It was not considered right to divide the party engaged in the survey, as such subdivision would only have the effect of lessening the amount of work performed. The hon. Gentleman might rest assured, however, that the sums granted by the House for the survey in Scotland would be expended on that object.
MR. SMOLLETTbelieved it would be found, that while the sum voted for Scotland was only 56,000 l., a part of that amount had not been actually expended on the Scotch survey, but returned to the Treasury.
CAPTAIN PECHELLwished, before this vote was agreed to, to inquire what had been done with respect to the Military Academy at Woolwich. It appeared from The Times newspaper, that a commission had been sitting to investigate the state of the Academy, but he was not aware whether any report had yet been made, or that anything had been done beyond building a wall and iron railing to keep the gentlemen cadets within bounds.
COLONEL ANSONstated that no report had yet been made with respect to the Academy. He was quite aware that great interest was felt in this subject; but, at the same time, he would caution hon. Members not to believe all the stories they saw in newspapers. With regard to the particular circumstance mentioned by the hon. and gallant Gentleman, of an iron railing being put up, the fact was that it had been thought desirable to have a palisade to prevent people getting in, but it was not meant to prevent the cadets getting out. He had no doubt that any regulations that should be adopted would be found to be worthy of the education for a service than which none was more honourable.
Vote agreed to.
The sum of 168,532 l. was voted for non-effective Ordnance services, military and civil, for the year.
The Committee having disposed of all
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the votes for the Ordnance, proceeded to the remaining

NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the first Vote,
SIR H. DOUGLASsaid: I hope my gallant associates, hon. Members belonging to the profession whose affairs we are now discussing, will not deem me an interloper if I make a few observations on the present occasion. Whilst I greatly approve, and am satisfied with the general character of the estimates for the present year, and admire the ability with which they were brought forward, I must at the same time express great regret and disappointment that no vote was taken for a purpose which I think of the first importance, and even indispensable to the safety of the State in these times; and which I cannot doubt the Committee would have received by acclamation, and the country would learn with general approbation—I mean a vote to provide, in some form or other, for a reserve of seamen to be organized and kept always ready to form fighting crews, for a moderately extended establishment in case of any emergency or combination; thus to insure, that in the event of any aggression upon us, any sudden breach of the peace, the first operations might be telling and triumphant. The material of our Navy is in the most efficient condition. We could commission in a day twenty or thirty sail of the line, and innumerable smaller vessels. Our armament is the most perfect in the world; our ships and fleets commanded by excellent, and in many cases experienced officers; and those vessels might gradually be manned by abundance of British seaman, trained to the sea by our commercial marine, if we touch not the great principles of our navigation laws. But where are the men to man, promptly, those ships for the first emergency of a war?
The Secretary of the Admiralty stated most correctly that power is relative; and he referred accordingly to the prodigious exertions, and the liberal provision made by the French Chambers for the extension of the maritime and naval power of France; and I concur with that hon. Member in admiring and applauding the lofty policy of a country that permits no considerations of pecuniary economy to interfere with matters intimately connected with the maintenance of national safety and power. Now, Sir, France, exclusive of her seamen

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in her active ships, provides a large reserve of seamen, ships' crews, ready to man a very considerable number of additional ships of war, by means of the establishment of what she calls the "Equipages de Ligne," of which I hold in my hand the first "Ordonnance" for the organization of those establishments; and also the decrees by which they have been more recently increased in number and improved in composition. Let us see the increase in the number of seamen voted in the Marine Budget since 1830. In that year it was 12,963 men. In 1843, the number of seamen was 26,926. In 1845, it was 29,073, of whom 23,704 are to serve afloat; the remainder forming reserves of "Equipages de Ligne" in the ports. I think one hundred companies of the "Equipages de Ligne" were first established. The creation of others, the last being of fifty new companies, has since been decreed. A division, formed of a considerable number of these companies, is established at each of the five ports—Brest, Toulon, Rochefort, L'Orient, and Cherbourg; the two first being of the first class. Each division of the first class is commanded, in chief, by a "capitaine de vaisseau," assisted by a "capitaine de frégate," and a "capitaine de corvette," and five lieutenants. The divisions of the second class are commanded by a "capitaine de vaisseau," with a smaller staff. Each company is composed of two lieutenants, a certain number of "elèves," 10 petty officers, and 60 seamen, able, ordinary, and inferior, and 26 boys. Exclusive of these, companies of boys are established at Brest, consisting of 127 boys each; at Toulon, 157 each; at Cherbourg, 65 each. The companies of the "Equipages de Ligne" are always kept up to their establishment: first, by the "Inscription Maritime;" second, by the law of enlistment; third, by voluntary engagements. Then there is established in each of the principal naval arsenals, a "depôt," or gunnery establishment, for the training of naval gunners; of which there is always a considerable reserve kept ready; and there are two gunnery frigates, I believe of the second class, kept always afloat, to train the gunners so educated to sea practice. These vessels attend the squadrons of evolution, and are thus "depôts" and reserves of well-trained gunners. Then, exclusive of these establishments, there are extensive establishments of marine artillery and marines. When a vessel is brought forward for com-
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mission, the greater part of her crew is at once given her, by embarking a certain number of these permanent companies; the regulated quota of gunners is transferred to her, which, according to regulation, is such as to supply first and second captains of guns. The quota of marines is added; and the Prefect Maritime furnishes whatever additional hands may be required to complete the crews. This indicates, sufficiently, the indispensable necessity of our having some establishment of reserved seamen ready to form the fighting crews of a certain number of ships suddenly commissioned in case of any emergency. I feel convinced that this cannot have escaped the vigilance and the forethought of the late Admiralty, and that the noble person who presides over the naval affairs of England, and the able and distinguished officers who aid and counsel him, are alive to, and must have prepared some plan of this kind; and I earnestly hope that no considerations of pecuniary economy will deter Her Majesty's Government from speedily adopting some such plan. The hon. the Secretary of the Admiralty, adverting to the state of our coast defences, referred to the vast out lay making in France on works which we have too long neglected. I hold in my hand the Projet de Loi, preceded by a detailed exposé, to which the hon. Member the Secretary of the Admiralty adverted, of the motives and objects of the immense outlay, for which credit was taken by the vote of that Session, in addition to the sums voted in 1841, when, it appears, a great stimulus was given to those works. These amount to no less than 126,560,900 francs — about 4,800,000 l. sterling thus appropriated. To Cherbourg, 15,500,000 francs; to L'Orient, 8,000,000 francs; to Rochefort, 3,000,000 francs; to Toulon, 14,300,000 francs; to Havre, 25,880,000 francs. Never has any nation made such stupendous exertions—such successful efforts in creating, or at least recreating, a naval power of the first order as France since 1815. Her commerce had been destroyed, her commercial marine ruined, her naval power destroyed; but, guided by a lofty policy, sacrificing nothing to her docteurs économique, she has restored her commerce, fostered her maritime resources, and reconstructed a formidable naval power. Not in the days of Rodney and De Grasse, Hughes and Suffren, was the Navy of France more powerful than it is now. No British statesman, of whatever

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party, can, or ought, to be unmindful of this. No British House of Commons, however economical in other respects, should affect to disregard this. Distant may the period be, when these tremendous powers are to be called into activity; but whilst we are determined to commit no act of aggression, let us not fail to provide effectually the best means of preserving peace, namely, to be well prepared for war; and that, if any act of aggression, any pregnant ambition be attempted against us, we may always be in a condition to make the first blow of a war the most effectual, and so herald a course of successes as signal as those which distinguished the commencement of the late war, and terminated with an ever memorable naval victory.
DR. BOWRINGsaid, if the hon. and gallant Officer had read the official documents attentively, he must have known that there was no power in the French Navy to cope with ours. The gallant General talked of the French Navy as if it were equal with our own. Look at the finances of France; year after year there was a deficiency; the Government was involved in debt; its embarrassments were continually increasing; and the Minister did not dare to state to the Chambers the real condition of the finances. Look at the national credit of the two countries. Could any one contrast them without seeing that the condition of England was superior to that of France? We had no reason whatever to feel any sort of alarm at the state of the French Navy; and no one could pay a visit to any of the French ports without seeing the inferiority of their Navy, and the impossibility of its competing with ours.
SIR H. DOUGLAS: Has the hon. Member read the Prince de Joinville's pamphlet.
DR. BOWRING: I have, and it did not alter my opinion.
MR. W. WILLIAMSobserved, that the jealousies and ill-will between France and England were produced by such observations as those upon the inferiority of the French Navy compared with ours.
SIR C. NAPIERconcurred in every word that had fallen from the gallant Officer (Sir H. Douglas), not only as to the necessity of having a reserve, but of a proper alarm as to what was going on at the opposite side of the Channel; and perfectly disagreed with every word that had fallen from the hon. Member for Coventry.
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In making a few observations, he would be as short as possible. He could not help expressing the gratification he felt at the very able manner in which the Secretary of the Admiralty had brought forward the Navy Estimates, and the bold and manly way in which he stated that the system in the dockyards was carried on by jobbing. He wished, however, that the Admiralty, in making all their alterations, had authorized the hon. Gentleman to go one step farther, and that they had acted like the Board of Customs, which with the consent of the First Lord of the Treasury he supposed—for the head of the board could not be believed to do it of his own accord—had issued instructions prohibiting all clerks and employés from making use of private interest for their advancement, and warning them that so far from raising it would depress them in their situations. He wished the Admiralty had said the same to every officer in the fleet, from the admiral to the lieutenant, and told them to look to themselves for promotion, and not to the interest of Lord This or Lord That. He had read over their plan with a great deal of attention, and wished it every suceess; but the only certain mode of putting an end to jobbing would be by disfranchising the whole of the dockyards. That would put an end to it, but nothing else would. If all men were honest, the proposed plan would be very good. When the builder chose three men for promotion, it was very possible he might choose two Tories and one Whig, or two Whigs and one Tory; and if the Government of the day were Whig or Tory, it required no ghost to tell them which of the three would be chosen by the Admiralty. He could have wished that the superintendent of a dockyard were allowed to choose his men, as an admiral was allowed to select the sailors for his ship, and then he would look for the best men, and it would soon go to head-quarters who had abused his trust. If that could not be done, he hoped they would at least give the superintendent the power of discharging a man immediately he neglected his duty. It was said the Government did not get a fair day's work for a fair day's wages under the present system, and there were rumours abroad also that our ships were not built in a proper manner. The confusion and conflicting orders and authorities which now prevailed were such as to give him no hope, unless the whole of the present system were reviewed. As to the building of our vessels,

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his gallant Friend who brought forward the Estimates put a shot between wind and water into the Admiralty when he said they did not know their own mind; and he would certainly divide the House, unless he got an assurance that a different system would be carried out. The late Secretary of the Admiralty informed them that there were only seven iron steamers used as vessels of war. He expected the gallant Officer who was more particularly charged with the gunnery department of the Navy, would give him his opinion whether those vessels which had been built were fit for war or not. But in reference to the statement of the late Secretary, on looking to a paper with which he had been furnished by the Admiralty, he found a long list of vessels which had been built since 1843. The gallant Officer then read a list of a number of vessels, specifying the number and nature of the guns they carried. The hon. Gentleman said that nine vessels were built because it was difficult to obtain wood; but that was no reason why so many of them should be built. Those which had been built were found very difficult to manage on account of the way in which their compasses were affected, and the recruit brig had to be taken into dock after every cruise in order to rectify them. He left it to the House to judge whether it was right or proper for any Admiralty, he did not care who they were, to begin to build thirty-three iron vessels before they had fully tested their capabilities. He wished above all things to know if there was any intention on the part of the Board of Admiralty to revise the articles of war, and make them a little more humane than they were at present? Now was the time to change them, when public opinion was strong on the subject. He did not at all approve of their order the other day, however, which would act in a most improper manner, and create one mode of punishment ashore, and another in blue water, giving the men to believe there was one discipline in England, and another abroad. He wished also to impress on them the propriety of increasing the ship-carpenters, and giving them better pay. It was so small at present that it was extremely difficult to get good carpenters to enter the men-of-war. He repeated again his wish that his gallant Friend opposite would answer whether the vessel built of iron were fit for men-of-war; and whether when a shot was fired into them, it went through, as your finger would through a
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sheet of brown paper. In the experiments that had been made, the shot was only fired from a jingal. What would be the effect if it came from a 32-pounder? If his hon. Friend could not tell, he (Sir C. Napier) could. The vessel would go to the bottom like a stone.
CAPTAIN BERKELEYsaid, that with respect to the calibre of the guns to be used in the Navy, the present Board of Admiralty had carried out the views of the late board, in respect to the use of as few varying calibres as possible; and he hoped the amount of different calibres would remain as it was fixed at present. The gallant Officer had asked his opinion as to the capabilities of iron vessels to be used as ships of war; but he would rather that the gallant Officer would call for the opinions of the board than that of an individual. He was sorry this point had been touched upon, because as the present Secretary to the Admiralty said, that the present board did not build, and did not intend to build, any more iron steamers, except for such purposes as packets, he had hoped that that would have been a sufficient indication of the opinion of the board on the subject. It had been said, that the firing at the Ruby by the Excellent was an absurd experiment; but he wished that experiment had been before made so many iron vessels had been ordered, for he was bound to say that the experiment proved that iron vessels were not fit for the purposes of war. In this he was borne out by the gallant Officer who made the experiment; and also by what happened in the River Plate, where the admiral, who commanded, thought the circumstance so extraordinary, that he sent home the shot which passed through the Lizard, making on one side a hole as in a sheet of brown paper, and a star on the other, so that it was hardly possible to stop it by a plug. By the trial on the Ruby, it appeared that the greater the thickness of the iron, the greater the injury. Iron butts were made of great thickness, and shots fired at them, and these shots had greater effect on them than shots fired at rotten wood would have on that material.
MR. CORRYdefended the appointments made by the late Board of Admiralty in the dockyards, all the higher stations having been conferred on supporters of the present Government. He would next refer to the charge made by the hon. and gallant Admiral (Sir C. Napier) against the late Board of Admiralty, with refer-

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ence to the building of iron ships of war. The question might be divided into two parts: the one a question of strength, and the other a question of durability. As to the question of strength, he referred to a letter of Lieutenant Hoskens, who stated, that if the Great Britain steam vessel had been built of wood, she would have broken up—if not before—on the 20th of November, when the tide rose to an extent much higher than usual. The next question was as to the durability of iron vessels. On this point he had some evidence which he should read to the House. The first iron steam vessel was built in 1821. She was built and commanded by the present Sir Charles Napier, and had been for a considerable time in use. In 1833, the Dublin Company commenced the building of iron vessels, and from their experience of them they had no idea of returning to wooden vessels; and the great majority of the steam vessels engaged in trade in that country are now built of iron. When the hon. and gallant Admiral (Sir Charles Napier) taunted them with not making experiments before building more vessels, he begged to inform him that they did make experiments at Woolwich, which were attended by a late Lord of the Admiralty, the hon. and gallant Member for Ripon (Sir George Cockburn), who had as many hard knocks as many of them, and it was his opinion that iron vessels were decidedly fitted for war. Now, as to the result of the experiment with regard to the Ruby, he would ask what must necessarily be the consequences when they took a ship of that kind, put her in water, and fired away at her; and having done that, was it fair then to say that an iron vessel was not fitted for war because she did not resist the shots which were directed against her? He referred to what had occurred with respect to the Swiftsure 74-gun ship, to show that a wooden vessel was equally vulnerable as an iron vessel; and could it for that reason be said that wood was an unfit material for the building of ships? The damage done to the Lizard had been adverted to; but a vessel of such light scantling must necessarily suffer, and it would appear that in similar circumstances wooden vessels had likewise suffered. He thought the late Board of Admiralty was quite justified in what they had done, and he conceived that all the experiments tended to prove that iron was a fit material for vessels built for the purposes of war; and even if they were not
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fitted for the purposes of war, they were fitted for the conveyance of troops.
CAPTAIN HARRISsaid, as he had reason to suppose that the expense of giving additional pay to the petty officers of the Navy would not amount to more than 30,000 l. or 40,000 l., he hoped that some proposal of this nature would be laid upon the Table as a supplementary estimate. He thought it of great importance that a measure of this kind should be brought forward pari passu with the measures relating to secondary punishments, and the reduction of corporal punishments. He would also urge upon the Board of Admiralty the importance of adopting means to give a more practical education to the naval cadets. He would suggest that one of the old jackass frigates should be fitted out, and placed under the command of a smart officer with a crew of seventy or eighty able seamen, on board which 100 cadets should serve, and learn to steer, heave the lead, and do their duty aloft, together with the rigging, fitting, and handling a ship, and that as many mates as convenient should serve in rotation to learn the pilotage of the Channel, and to steer a ship by the marks and the chart.
CAPTAIN PECHELLsaid, that on Friday night many observations were made, to which answers were expected; but the Lords of the Admiralty had not given any. He would be glad to do away with the jobbing in the dockyards; but as he wished to hear the right hon. Baronet (the Member for Dorchester), he trusted that an opportunity for discussion would be given on a future occasion.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, that after the observations of the gallant Admiral (Sir C. Napier), and of the Secretary of the Admiralty, he was afraid that any observations of his own would be of little weight, since his experience at the Admiralty was now of ancient date, and the practice then was different from what it was now. It was admitted on all hands that the patronage of the Board was now in the hands of the Secretary; but when he was at the Admiralty it was in the First Lord, with the advice of the Board, and the Secretary had only a somewhat peculiar branch of the Admiralty—the clerical patronage in the appointment of chaplains. He was quite astonished to hear, that in making the appointments, it was an ordinary question to ask what were the political opinions of the master shipwrights or of the foreman of the works. He was himself in

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office only for the two years consequent upon the great election after the Reform Act; and, before he left office, he had seen the bad effects of giving the right of representation to Woolwich, and then to Chatham, then to Devonport, and then by attaching to the Pembroke district of boroughs the dockyard of Pembroke, and also by giving the full franchise to Portsmouth, which before was a close corporation; and though he had taken no notice of the political opinions of the officers in the yard, nor inquired how they exercised their elective franchise, yet he must say that, if this question were constantly put by different Boards of Admiralty, it would be a great impediment to the efficiency of the yard. The possession of the elective franchise was an important question as connected with the public service. The expenditure in the yards was enormous, and nothing could be a greater evil than the prevalence of this system. The spirit of the suggestions laid upon the Table by the present Secretary of the Admiralty did him the highest honour; and they were directed to the remedy of this evil. He was inclined to agree with the gallant Member for Marylebone as to the propriety of making promotions in the naval services and in the dockyards by merit; and he had been advised by Admiral Sir Thomas Hardy, and by Admiral Dundas, to proceed on the principle of concentrating the responsibility, and thus increasing the efficiency. He had sought to give the right of rating and disrating in the master of the yard as every captain had in a ship, which concentrated all the power and responsibility, and ensured efficiency; but still he had great doubt whether there was not much force in what the gallant Member for Marylebone said; and it would be a grave question whether they must not at last—though he was opposed to disqualification—with a view to the efficiency of the public service, come to the same regulation with respect to the dockyards as existed in regard to other situations under the Government. The officers and men employed in the coast guard were connected with the collection of the revenue, and were disqualified from voting. The analogy between them and persons employed in the dockyards was very close; and though disqualification was invidious, it would be a question whether the elective franchise should not be confined to the inhabitants of the towns; it was a grave question to be decided on public grounds. Still, the
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plan of the Secretary of the Admiralty was honest and fair, and he was willing to give it a trial.
MR. WARDexpressed his deep gratification at the manner in which the right hon. Baronet had been pleased to speak of the plan of the Admiralty. He trusted that when the officers saw the general feeling on the subject, and, more, saw that an honest plan was put before them, they would endeavour to carry it fairly into effect, especially when they were made aware that if this plan should fail, the alternative must be disfranchisement. Should the scheme fail, he trusted the House would not hesitate to concur in applying the more extensive remedy to which the right hon. Baronet had alluded.
SIR J. GRAHAMdoubted the policy of appointing four measurers to each dockyard. If the measurement were effectual, there would be required a much greater number of officers for this purpose.
MR. WARDsaid, it was expected the services of these officers, who would have assistants, would be effectual for the purposes for which they were designed.
MR. F. T. BARINGwould assure his hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty that he must have his eyes and ears open, and, after all, unless he had an opportunity of checking the officers themselves, he would only remove the impression, now unfavourable to the Admiralty, to them. He thought the disfranchisement of the dockyards objectionable, and would recommend, as the most effectual remedy for the evils complained of, that the Treasury should listen very unwillingly to all applications for influencing the patronage of dockyards.
Several Votes were agreed to.
House resumed. Resolutions to be reported.
House adjourned at half-past One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Custody of Offenders; Prisons.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Joseph Bentley, for the Adoption of Means for the Establishment of a more perfect System of National Education.—From several Poor Law Unions in Ireland for Amendment of the Poor Relief (Ireland) Act, by equalizing the payment of Poor Rates over the entire of each Union.—By Lord Brougham, from Bodmin, against the Use of Grain and Fruit in Distilleries.—From Hunslet and several other places for Amendment of the Poor Removal Act.

LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
The EARL of SHAFTESBURYbrought up the report of the Amendments.
The EARL of RADNORobserved, that the number of persons employed on the relief works in Ireland was now 668,000, being an increase of 40 per cent in the number. He wished to ask if Government had any idea that the number would be diminished. What was to become of them if this system should go on to October or November?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwas not in the least surprised at the question put by his noble Friend, and the great anxiety he had expressed as to the subject, in which anxiety he entirely concurred. It undoubtedly was the intention of Her Majesty's Government, and had been so stated by them to Parliament, that as far as practicable reproductive works should be set on foot, and that the relief works should be not abruptly, but gradually, discontinued. The only reason for that course not having been yet acted upon to the extent to which it was desirable, was the increasing destitution of Ireland by the increase of scarcity, and the absolute failure of any other means of support, combined with the difficulty, or rather impossibility, of carrying at once into operation those other measures which it was hoped by Government and Parliament would operate in some degree as a substitute. One of those Bills was only just passed; and he could assure his noble Friend that no time would be lost in Ireland in carrying the new system into operation, with a view to afford such relief as could be immediately given. Positive instructions had been sent to the local government in Ireland, enjoining the discontinuing of those works; that none should be commenced except under the most urgent circumstances; and that if any particular work was so commenced, an immediate report should be made expressing the grounds of the undertaking. He did therefore feel confident, that at no distant period there would be a diminution in the amount of men employed on those works. Though it was undoubtedly true, that any system of relief

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which could be introduced into Ireland would be subject to abuse, yet the system now to be established would be one more capable of control, less liable to abuse, more easily watched, than the one to which his noble Friend had called their Lordships' attention. He could only say, that he should be obliged to his noble Friend to continue his attention to this subject, because it was one of great importance.
LORD BROUGHAMcould only say, that he entertained the same hope with his noble Friend opposite, which he trusted would not be frustrated by the result. But his fear, as well as that of his noble Friend near him, was that it would. His great fear was, as he had constantly stated since the beginning of the Session, that they had got into a plan, the necessary and inevitable consequence of which was, that it could not stop where it was, but must go on.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELremarked, that the noble Lord (the Earl of Radnor) could not surely be aware of the present state of Ireland, or he would not have spoken as he had done. It was impossible that the landowners could diminish the enormous expense which they were at present incurring in the execution of relief works, however much it was their interest to do it; for they found themselves compelled to bring in presentations for more works, in order to provide employment for the people to prevent them from starving. When they saw the people falling dead on the roads—when they found contagion spreading not only in the cabins of the poor, but among every class of society—when they saw these things occurring, it was impossible to put a stop suddenly to the means which had hitherto been adopted of supporting the people in their present distress. Besides, there were certain public works which had been presented for, and which were not finished; and the money which had been already expended on the progress of these works would be thrown away, if the works were not continued. Many roads in the south of Ireland were in this condition, and the number of persons employed on them could not well be diminished until they were completed. And, even if they were finished, what was to be done with these poor people until other means were found for supporting them?
The EARL of RADNORhoped that none of their Lordships had misunderstood him, as the noble Earl seemed to have done.
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He spoke of Ireland in regard to this matter, only as he would of Yorkshire.
Amendments reported.

CUSTODY OF OFFENDERS BILL—SECONDARY PUNISHMENTS.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
EARL GREYsaid: I beg now to move that this Bill be read a second time. The object of the Bill is not one of any considerable importance. Its scope is confined to little more than assimilating the law with respect to Irish offenders, to the law as it now exists in Great Britain. By the existing law, all offenders sentenced to transportation in Great Britain are placed at the disposal of the Crown; and the usual course is, that they are sent to Van Diemen's Land, Gibraltar or Bermuda, or are imprisoned in Millbank or Pentonville prisons, or confined on board of the hulks, as circumstances may render desirable. But the Acts which give this power, as regards offenders in Great Britain, do not extend to Ireland; and with respect to Ireland there is no power of disposing of criminals otherwise than by sending them to Van Diemen's Land and Norfolk Island, because even Bermuda and Gibraltar, where there are convict establishments, do not come within the operation of the law as regards Irish convicts. To do away with this distinction is the whole scope of the Bill of which I now move the second reading. There is another Bill—the Prisons Bill—before us, intimately connected with it, of which I shall also move the second reading this evening, but which is not in itself of very much more importance. Its whole object is to make a change, and I believe a very necessary change, in the constitution of the governing bodies of the three national prisons of Pentonville, Millbank, and Parkhurst. But though those two measures are not in themselves of any very great importance, I think it is right that, in moving the second reading of this Bill, I should call your Lordships' attention to the whole subject of secondary punishments; for this reason, that these are the only measures of a legislative kind which it is necessary for Government at present to introduce to Parliament in carrying into effect a change in the policy of the country with respect to punishments of a very important kind. That change is of no less extent than a virtual abolition of the system of transportation, which has so many years prevailed under different regulations

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and modifications as a mode of punishment. Although by law the Executive Government has, undoubtedly, the power of making this change without appealing to Parliament, yet, considering the extreme importance of that change—considering that the system which it is proposed to alter is one which has now lasted for very many years, and that it has received on repeated occasions the deliberate attention of Parliament—I certainly do feel that it would be inconsistent with the duty of Her Majesty's Government to carry such a change into effect without distinctly calling the attention of Parliament to the subject. My Lords, I believe there is no subject which can come under the consideration of Parliament of more deep importance than that of the punishment of offenders. It is absolutely necessary, for the very existence of society, that the punishments by which the law is to be enforced, should be of such a character as effectually to deter offenders from the commission of crime. It is equally necessary, for great ends of humanity, that the punishment inflicted on offenders should be one, calculated, as far as possible, to reform and improve the unhappy objects of that punishment themselves. These are ends, my Lords, of the very highest importance; and not less is the extreme difficulty in carrying it out with success. It is a subject on which various systems have been adopted by the various civilized nations of the world, and upon which many attempts at improvement have been made; but I believe nowhere can it be said that that great and difficult problem of discovering the best mode of treating offenders, with a view at once to the prevention of crime and the reformation of the criminal, has yet received a completely satisfactory solution. But though this is the case, the experience which has of late years been gained both in this and other countries, has, I think, enabled us to judge far better than we could have done a very few years ago, what are the measures which it is expedient to adopt. I have already said, that the change which Government have considered ought to be introduced into the policy of the country, extends to no less than the virtual abolition of transportation, because when I speak of transportation, I do not include the punishment of offenders at Gibraltar and Bermuda: that punishment is of a totally different character from that which is usually known under the name of transportation. It is one of the
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known features of the system of transportation, that in the very great majority of cases, the persons on whom that sentence has been passed, being carried to a very remote part of the world, at the termination of their sentence remain in the country in which their punishment has been carried into effect, and do not return to this country: so that relieving this country from the presence of those criminals, was considered one of the main objects in view under that system. But with respect to those removed to Bermuda and Gibraltar, this has not been the case; on the contrary, criminals who have there been punished, are not allowed to remain in those places; they are brought back at the public expense to this country. Punishment at Bermuda and Gibraltar is, therefore, rather to be considered as an extension of the hulk system which is in practice here, than as a system of transportation; it is only that a certain number of convicts who would have been otherwise sent to the hulks at Portsmouth or Woolwich, have been sent to hulks stationed at Gibraltar or Bermuda, because their labour can be rendered there exceedingly valuable to the country. Defining in this manner what I mean by the word "transportation," Her Majesty's Government propose to do away entirely with the system of transportation as it has hitherto existed. I cannot believe that any of your Lordships who have read the papers lately presented, and those which in former years also have been laid before Parliament, or who have attended to the progress of the various measures adopted on this subject within the last few years, can doubt the absolute necessity—I use no lighter word—of that complete change of policy which Government have thought it their duty to adopt. I trust a short recapitulation of what has been passed on this subject, will be sufficient to show your Lordships that this necessity really exists. Allow me, therefore, to remind your Lordships that the old system of transportation was one very different from that which of late years has existed. Convicts sent to New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land were not kept at the charge of Government; they were assigned to private individuals, with whom they were placed in a situation, I may call it, of slavery, because they were compelled to serve those persons. According to the regulations, wages were not allowed to be paid to them; they only received food and clothing, and if they failed to work, or for any neglect of orders,

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the punishment was of the most summary kind—flogging by order of a magistrate. It was to all intents and purposes a system of slavery which existed in those colonies. In 1837, a Committee, of which I had the honour to be a Member, was appointed in the other House of Parliament to consider this subject, which sat both in that and the following Session, and took a great deal of evidence upon this subject. Of that Committee, Sir R. Peel, Lord J. Russell, and other distinguished persons, who had taken an active part in the business of Parliament, were Members; and it was ably presided over by Sir W. Molesworth. No difference of opinion, so far as I recollect, existed among the Members as to the necessity of doing away with what was called the system of assignment, because that system was one of the grossest inequality and injustice. It was a matter of accident under it what was the nature of the punishment to which a man was subjected. If he had a good master, disposed to be indulgent, it often happened that a criminal who had been sentenced in this country for some most heinous offence, more especially if he proved to be a good mechanic or workman, instead of finding himself worse off than in this country, found his situation infinitely improved. I remember that with respect to the agricultural labourers sent out for their share in the riots of 1830, which were caused by the great distress then existing in Kent and Dorsetshire, this was very remarkably the case. These men being generally good labourers, their services were extremely valuable, so that the masters to whom they were assigned were very anxious to keep them in good humour. They were consequently well treated; and thus to those men whom you sent to New South Wales for the purpose of punishing them, the effect of the sentence of transportation was this, that whereas in England—the cause of those riots being, undoubtedly, the severe pressure of the distress at that time existing—they had been receiving 7s. or 8s. a week, which barely enabled them to obtain a most scanty diet, and a miserable provision of clothing, when they went to New South Wales, and were assigned to masters by way of punishment, they received rations of ten pounds of meat a week, with a good allowance of sugar, tea, bread, and clothing; and this in return for labour certainly much less severe than what they had been used to. In some cases, therefore, this was no punishment whatever; while in others, ac-
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cording to the disposition of the masters (and this was a mere matter of accident), it was a punishment of the cruellest and severest kind. The assigned servant was, as I have already said, entirely the slave of his master. If it so happened that he got a bad and tyrannical master, he was subjected to a continual system of annoyance, ill treated, and at length driven into mutiny and resistance, when he was immediately carried before a magistrate, and, upon the mere allegation of the master, was subjected to corporal punishment of the severest kind. Returns were laid before the Committee in 1812 which showed the fearful extent to which this system of corporal punishment had been carried. Your Lordships will observe another result of this system. The suffering endured by the convicts in this way was altogether useless as an example to offenders at home; it was little heard of in this country; but, on the other hand, those convicts who were well off wrote home to their friends and relations, and said, "It was the luckiest thing that ever happened to me to be convicted and sent out here. I was never so well off before, and do you contrive to get yourself sent out, and follow me as soon as you can." I was Under Secretary in the Colonial Office, and had opportunities of seeing many of those letters; and I think my noble Friend opposite (Lord Ripon), who was then Secretary of State for the Colonies, will also remember seeing numerous letters of this kind which came through the office. No doubt many of these representations were false; but they were not made in vain—their statements were believed; and, whether true or false, they produced their effect; and their result was, to render this system ineffectual in deterring others from the commission of offences at home. For these reasons, the Committee of 1838 came, as I believe, to the unanimous conclusion that the system of assignment was one which must be done away with. Their resolution to this effect was reported to the House of Commons; and measures founded on that resolution were adopted, by which steps were taken to put an end to the system of assignment. At the same time it was proposed, that all convicts whatever were to be retained in the hands of Government; and that, therefore, a much smaller number of convicts than formerly should be transported. It was felt, that when the system of assignment ceased, and when all convicts were to be retained in the hands

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of the Colonial Government, it would be a matter of extreme difficulty to administer the system properly if a very large number were to be sent out. The plan which it was intended to adopt, and for which instructions were framed by my noble Friend at the head of the Government (Lord John Russell), who then filled the office I have now the honour to hold, was that of confining the punishment of transportation to a comparatively small number of criminals, who were to be sent to Van Diemen's Land and to Norfolk Island. In accordance with these views, in the beginning of 1840, an Order in Council was issued prohibiting transportation to New South Wales. It was also a part of this plan, that the system of punishment at home should be greatly improved; but time was required to carry these views into effect. For that purpose the prison at Pentonville was founded, and measures were adopted to improve the system of prison punishment at home. But in 1841, while these measures were in progress, a resolution was moved in the House of Commons to the effect that it was inexpedient to keep such a large number of convicts on board the hulks at home: that resolution was resisted on the part of the Government; but it was carried by a majority of the House of Commons. This was towards the end of Lord Melbourne's Administration; and the resolution was carried in a thin House in the month of March. As far as I can trace the matter, no measures were taken for carrying that resolution into effect during the continuance of that Administration. When a change of Government took place shortly after, it was determined that the views of the House of Commons should be acted upon; and I find, that after a good deal of discussion on the matter, in the early part of 1843 it was decided that all convicts should be sent abroad, except those belonging to either of two classes—first, those who might be selected for imprisonment at Pentonville, Parkhurst, and Millbank; and, secondly, those whose age or health was such as to render it inexpedient that they should be transported. The whole of the remaining body of criminals were to be sent to Bermuda, to Van Diemen's Land, or to Norfolk Island. The consequence of this determination was that a very large number of convicts were sent to Van Diemen's Land and to Norfolk Island. I confess I at the time entertained the very strongest conviction that the adoption of this measure must lead to
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very great evils. I was persuaded it was impossible so large a number of convicts could be sent to those colonies without its being found that, practically, there were no adequate means of there carrying into effect the intended system of punishment; because your Lordships must remember, that as these convicts were not to be assigned as servants to settlers, but were to be retained under the immediate charge of the Government, the punishment really resolved itself into the infliction of forced labour. But the difficulty of inflicting this punishment upon large numbers of convicts without giving rise to abuse, which is great everywhere, was infinitely increased by the circumstances that at such a distance from home, these colonies were out of the immediate control of Government; and if there were any slight errors or defects in the system brought to light by experience, they could only be corrected by reference home, which would require nearly a year before an answer could be returned. There is also a much greater difficulty in getting trustworthy agents and officers than at home; so that in situations of that kind, the impediments to a good system of penal labour were great indeed. I have already stated that the Committee of 1838 had it in contemplation that a certain number of convicts should still continue to be sent abroad. I confess, my Lords, I thought this the most doubtful part of their recommendation; but, at the same time, if transportation to Norfolk Island and Van Diemen's Land had been continued to a very small number of convicts guilty of the most heinous offences, I think it possible that the advantages which we might have reason to expect from the impression made on men's imaginations (if the system were properly carried into effect) by the great distance of those places, and the complete disappearance of persons sentenced to them—the effect of their being utterly lost sight of by their friends and relations, might, with regard to very serious offences, by rendering this punishment more calculated to deter offenders from the commission of them, have counterbalanced the disadvantages resulting from the greater practical difficulty of enforcing an effective system of discipline at such a distance from home. But when the system came to be applied, not to a few hundreds, but to many thousands—when immense numbers of convicts were to be carried to the antipodes, I believed that it would be

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utterly impossible that any other result could follow than that which has actually occurred. I think the papers lately laid on your Lordships' Table will prove to you that my anticipation of the failure of the system was but too well founded. I will not disgust your Lordships by going into the horrible, the monstrous details of the abuses which have sprung up from this system in Norfolk Island. A state of things had been found, on evidence of which the general effect was unquestionable, to exist in that small island too horrible to mention. It is, my Lords, a disgrace, I may say, to the British name, that such a system should have existed under the British flag. Very soon after I was appointed to the office I now hold, I felt the effect of the evidence laid before me so conclusive, that I thought myself justified in issuing orders to the new Governor, who was then on the point of going out, at once to break up the establishment there. Since these instructions were given to Sir W. Denison, despatches have been received by which it appears that Sir Eardley Wilmot had already found that the evils existing in Norfolk Island had risen to such a height, that he had to a great degree anticipated the orders carried out by his successor. He had already taken steps to prevent more convicts from being landed on the shores of the island, and even to remove a portion of those already there. I need not go into the details of the state of things at Norfolk Island, nor of the frightful outbreak which took place there among the convicts, and which, it appears, a singular interposition of Providence alone prevented from being completely successful. But for the fortunate arrival of a small detachment of troops, it was by no means improbable that the convicts might have overcome the force of civil officers and the military in the island, and that every free person there might have been murdered. With respect, then, to Norfolk Island, I see there is no difference of opinion among your Lordships — you all see the breaking up of this establishment was absolutely inevitable. But I fear, my Lords, that the state of things in Van Diemen's Land is something similar—the evil indeed, I hope is far from being equally great; but still there is even in that island a state of things most painful to contemplate. Any of your Lordships who have looked through the evidence, will, I am sure, see reason to be abun-
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dantly dissatisfied with the condition of Van Diemen's Land. We have often heard of abuses on board the hulks under the old system; but I firmly believe the worst conducted of these hulks was less fatal to anything like moral improvement amongst the prisoners, than the state of things in that island; and I am convinced that as regards the reformation of the convicts transported to Van Diemen's Land, the present system has worked very badly. I am aware, indeed, that the Governor and the authorities in immediate charge of the convicts, do not entirely support this impression, and that their reports are not so unfavourable as those received from other quarters; but I think it is impossible calmly to consider facts stated in the report of Sir Eardley Wilmot, and of Sir John Franklin, who preceded him as Governor, without coming to the conclusion, that even upon their showing the working of the system has been most unsatisfactory. The latter expressed this opinion very decidedly; and though the present Governor gives a different opinion, I must repeat that, in doing so, he admits facts which in my mind confirm the unfavourable impression produced by what appear to me to be trustworthy accounts which we have from other quarters. My noble Friend the President of the Council, in the early part of last year, presented a petition, signed by the Bishop of the colony, and a vast number of the most respectable inhabitants, to the number, as well as I recollect, of 1,700 or 1,800, every one of whom added his address to his name, as a proof of his respectability, which described in the strongest terms the state to which this island was reduced, by the existing system of transportation. In that petition it was stated—
"We are in continual dread and anxiety for ourselves and our families, owing to the numbers of convicts by whom we are surrounded; we feel that we have no security for life or property; that the moral condition of the colony is daily becoming worse and worse; that no regulations, however well intended, no Government, however able, no improvement in detail, will counteract the evil of the enormous mass of criminals that are poured upon our shores; and that if the present system of transportation continues, we must, at whatever sacrifice, abandon a colony which will become unfit for any man to inhabit who regards the highest interests of himself and his children."
This was the statement of the petition. I have seen, within the last few months, various persons who have given me accounts of the state of things in the colony, and

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they support to the fullest extent the statements contained in this petition respecting it. I have, amongst others, both seen the Protestant bishop and the Roman Catholic bishop of Van Diemen's Land, who at this moment are in England, which they were both very much led, as I believe, to visit by the desire of representing to Government the absolute necessity of putting an end to the system which has led to such dreadful results. Both of those right rev. bishops I have seen, as I said before, and they concur in giving me a picture of the state of society in the island, arising from the extent to which transportation is carried, which is too terrible to comtemplate. But there is another question still to be considered: the expenditure, on the part of the mother country, in carrying out this system in Van Diemen's Land has been extremely large—so large, indeed, that I have no hesitation in saying, that if the same sum of money had been employed in a well-considered system of punishment at home, the same number of convicts would have been effectually punished here; and proper buildings, constructed on the best system for prison discipline, might have been erected for their reception. But while it has been expensive to the mother country, to the colony it has been utter ruin—the amount of the charges which has fallen upon it, has made the colony, I may say, a bankrupt. So heavily had the charges connected with this system fallen on the colony, that some time ago my noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) felt himself compelled to call on Government to submit to Parliament a proposal for throwing a large portion of expense on this country; and a grant of 24,000 l. a year towards the expense of the police and the administration of justice in Van Diemen's Land, has accordingly been sanctioned. I am afraid, however, it is too true that some of the most desirable settlers in Van Diemen's Land have been forced to quit its soil, and that a most serious blow has been given to the prosperity of the colony. Before this large influx of convicts, it was a most thriving and prosperous colony, and its progress had been one of almost unexampled rapidity; but from the time this enormous influx of convicts took place, this state of things was greatly changed for the worse. I am aware that there were other causes for this, and that it is not alone to be attributed to that influx. Commercial distress in this country, the
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existence of drought in New South Wales, and the reaction consequent on over-speculation in land, no doubt, contributed to this state of Van Diemen's Land: but I have no hesitation in saying that the transportation to this one colony of so large a number of convicts in the manner in which it took place, was one main cause for the rapid falling-off in prosperity of Van Diemen's Land, and that it has received a check from which it will be many years before it can recover. I have been told it is not the system which is in fault, but the persons who are appointed to carry it into effect; and that a greater degree of caution and energy on the part of the principal officers to whom the government of Van Diemen's Land and Norfolk Island, and the conduct and management of the convicts, have been entrusted, would have led to a different result. My Lords, I cannot adopt that opinion. In the first place, I must remark that the same Government by which the system of punishment was framed, had the choice of the agents to whom the execution of their plans was committed; but without pretending to deny that there may possibly have been faults on the part of those officers—a question on which I wish to avoid giving an opinion one way or the other—still I have a strong conviction that it was impossible for the officers and agents to whom this arduous duty was assigned, so to have discharged it under the difficulties in which they were placed, as to lead to anything like a satisfactory result. Allow me, my Lords, to remind you that it has been always a task of the greatest possible difficulty to carry on a system of punishment by means of forced labour. Whether attempted at home or abroad—by this country, or by America, or by France—it has been always found that any such system of punishment meets with very great difficulty and obstruction; but I have already observed that these difficulties and obstructions are multiplied tenfold when the system is to be worked out by a delegated authority, removed to so great a distance from those to whom they are responsible, and whose orders they are to carry into effect. In order that any system of the kind should work well, it is necessary that it should be closely watched from day to day, and that any mismanagement in it should be instantly checked; that errors—and errors are inevitable in such a system—should be noticed by the authorities, and a correction immediately given to them.

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But an authority situated like the Governor of Van Diemen's Land cannot so act. He is bound, in the first place, to consult and communicate with the other officers of the colony; he is bound, if he wishes to make any material alteration in the plans approved at home, to postpone making the change until he can receive authority from this country. In Norfolk Island there is still more difficulty. The administrator of punishment in that settlement is the delegate of a delegate—the Governor of Van Diemen's Land is the authority to whom he looks immediately for his orders; and over him is Her Majesty's Government at home. The communication between that place and Norfolk Island is irregular and slow, and is kept up only by sailing vessels, so that an opportunity of communicating with the Governor very rarely occurs. If anything goes wrong in the island, there are no means of getting an improvement effected except through the long process of appealing to the authorities in Van Diemen's Land, and through them to the Government at home. But, besides all this, in any system of punishment, perhaps the greatest practical difficulty is to procure proper agents and officers to carry it into effect; and more especially is that difficulty felt with subordinate agents. I believe most of your Lordships have more or less knowledge of the manner in which prisons are conducted at home, and that you know the efficiency of a prison depends almost as much on the efficiency of the subordinate officers and overseers, as upon the governor. It is impossible for the best governor to carry out even a good system without good officers; but in Van Diemen's Land the difficulty of obtaining good officers is infinitely greater than in this country; and in Norfolk Island it is greater still. In the first place, the scale of remuneration for every kind of labour, has, till lately, been so much higher than at home, that the salary which in this country would secure the services of a first-rate person, would do no such thing in Van Diemen's Land. It has often happened that overseers and clerks employed in our establishments were tempted out of our service by superior offers from merchants and other persons in those colonies; so that, without going to much larger expense than is necessary at home, it is impossible to obtain agents and overseers of a superior description. But in a small colony like Van Diemen's Land, where, as I am afraid, party spirit at times runs very high, it is extremely diffi-
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cult to get officers, who, however good they may be at first, do not after a short time become less so, and become involved in the various local disputes which are going on around them. On the other hand, the Governor has by no means the same authority to remove officers which belongs to the Home Government. He can only suspend those who have misconducted themselves; and this power of suspension is exercised with great hesitation and difficulty, because it is always liable to be reversed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies; and a lieutenant governor in Van Diemen's Land would not venture to suspend an officer unless upon a very clear case of misconduct. If an officer leaves his situation, the difficulty of replacing him in these islands is so great, that it is almost impossible to do so; and if removed by death, or for misconduct, he frequently cannot be replaced without reference here, and without sending out another person from this country, which involves a delay of twelve months. This is attended with the greatest inconvenience in Van Diemen's Land. But when your Lordships come to look at Norfolk Island, you will see that very few men such as could be employed as officers in the management of convicts, would consent to live among such a population, cut off (it might be said) from all intercourse with civilized society, having nobody to associate with except a few colleagues in the service, and the criminals of whom they had charge. I believe it is impossible that any person for a long series of years could be condemned to entire exclusion from civilized society without being more or less deteriorated, and without having his moral qualities affected by the atmosphere of crime in which he is placed. This is a very serious difficulty; and I believe one reason why the management of criminals is easier at home than abroad is, that here the governors of our prisons, and officers employed under them—though during the period when they are actually on duty, they are chiefly employed among convicts—are not excluded from the advantages of social intercourse with those who are neither employed on the convict service nor yet tainted with crime. I believe, that this is a consideration of very high importance in estimating the difficulties of maintaining the efficiency of the convict system in such a situation as Norfolk Island. These considerations it was which led Her Majesty's Government to conclude that, as by the abolition of the sys-

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tem of assignment the really penal part of transportation came to be neither more nor less than forced labour and imprisonment, and as that change had been carried into effect, if these were to be the main elements of punishment to which we were henceforth to trust, that punishment would be likely to be more safely and more efficiently inflicted at home than at a distance; that penal labour and imprisonment could be rendered infinitely more efficient in England than they could be by any regulations which could be adopted in distant colonies. Here there would be all the advantages of close superintendence of the practical working of the system, of the power of immediately checking any abuses, of replacing officers found inefficient, of correcting any errors that might be made in drawing up the regulations under which punishment was to be inflicted—altogether every advantage wanting in the colonies will be obtained to the fullest extent by having this punishment at home. Such accordingly is the determination on the system to be adopted by Government. It is proposed—still continuing to look to penal labour and imprisonment as the main instruments of punishment—that they shall be carried into effect at home; it is intended that no efforts shall be spared to render it as efficient as possible, to deter offenders from crime, and to improve those who have fallen into the commission of error. With this view it is intended that every criminal sentenced to transportation shall undergo a period—longer or shorter, according to the nature of his offence—of what is called separate confinement, and that no criminal shall escape from some portion of such confinement. My Lords, I think the experience of the last four years is most satisfactory as to the effects of that punishment. I think it has been proved to be most efficient in deterring offenders from the commission of crime, and in improving those capable of improvement who have committed it; but at the same time I think it requires to be carried into effect with very great caution, and that it should not be carried to a great extent. It is a punishment which should not, under any circumstances in fact, be prolonged beyond a comparatively short period. Her Majesty's Government, therefore, propose that every person convicted of a crime shall be subjected to the same process of punishment and improvement for a period according to the nature of it—not for a longer term than eighteen months for offences of the
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gravest character; and in the case of minor offences, for which seven years' transportation is the ordinary sentence, the period of separate confinement shall be made shorter. [Lord BROUGHAM: Eighteen months continuously?] Yes. The punishment has been inflicted for even more than eighteen months; and from the testimony of the medical authorities, I believe that period is sufficiently safe—that I understand to be the opinion of two gentlemen of great medical skill, who, as Commissioners of Pentonville, have had an opportunity of observing the effect of this punishment, I refer to Sir Benjamin Brodie and Dr. Ferguson, who, while they earnestly deprecate the prolongation of the punishment beyond eighteen months, do not think that for the gravest offences a period of eighteen months' separate confinement would be too long, provided due care is taken by the medical officers of the prison to watch the operation of the punishment in each individual case. It is clear that wherever the punishment is to be restricted to this period, a man guilty of a very heinous offence cannot be discharged immediately on its expiration. Take an aggravated case of manslaughter, where the difference between that crime and wilful murder depends on some very nice circumstance, so that the criminal escaped the extreme penalty, and was sentenced to transportation for life—eighteen months' solitary confinement would be a most inadequate punishment for such an offence. It is, therefore, proposed, that when such an offender is discharged from Pentonville or Parkhurst, he shall undergo a further period of punishment by being compelled to labour on the public works. I am aware there is a strong impression that this is a punishment liable to great objections. It is a punishment formerly carried into effect on board the hulks, to which I know objections, and I am bound to say very great objections, existed; but I cannot help thinking they apply rather to the means by which the punishment was carried on, than to the punishment itself. I do not believe that penal labour—where convicts in large bodies are allowed to associate—is necessarily productive of those evils. On the contrary, I believe these evils arise from causes which may be easily traced to other sources. In the first place, the labour of convicts was formerly enforced simply by coercion. The fear of the lash was the sole motive held out to them. The whole system was very ineffi-

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cient, and the number of officers much less than what it ought to be. The provision for the religious instruction of the convicts was also utterly inadequate to the purpose; but of late years much improvement has been effected in these particulars, and I believe it can be carried much further still. We propose, then, that convicts should be employed in public works, under a system by which we hope the evils of the old system may be avoided. In the first place, it would, I think, greatly contribute to this end, if every prisoner shall have undergone a period of separate confinement, by which, I believe, that except in some of the most obdurate and hardened, an impression will be made on the minds of the prisoners, which will greatly facilitate the measures for their improvement. They will know, too, that those who have misconducted themselves on the public works, will be liable to be sent back to separate confinement; but what I look to still more is, the improvement of the general system under which the work is to be carried on. Your Lordships are no doubt aware that a plan of convict discipline which has attracted considerable attention was proposed by Captain Maconochie. I am aware that that plan, as it was tried under his superintendence in Norfolk Island, was very far from being successful; I know that Captain Maconochie urges he had difficulties to encounter there, which account for what was considered (but as he thinks unjustly) the failure of that experiment, and to a certain extent this may have been the case; still I am bound to say, looking to the whole history of the experiment, and considering the opinion formed on the subject by persons on whose judgment I have the most reliance, I am impressed with the conviction that his plan, as proposed by himself, could not practically work well; but at the same time I think there was a great deal that was highly valuable in it, and the fundamental principle he reeommends was, in my opinion, a wise and a sound one. That fundamental principle, my Lords, I understand to be this — that convicts under punishment should be subjected to a system by which they should have a great and direct interest in their own good conduct; by which, from their industry and good conduct, they should not only be enabled to abridge the period of punishment to which they were sentenced, but also enjoy certain immediate advantages. I am convinced that that is essentially a sound
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principle; and in fact it is a system which has already been acted upon to a certain extent, since by the regulations under which convicts at Bermuda and Gibraltar are employed, their labour is performed by task, and they have an interest in the amount of that labour; and the effects of this system, which has not been many years adopted, have been highly satisfactory so far as it goes. The value of the work done at Bermuda and Gibraltar proves that the system is successful in stimulating the industry of the convicts, since it is sufficient not only to pay the whole expense of their maintenance, including the cost of superintendence, but to leave also a considerable annual gain at the expiration of the period of employment. In Gibraltar, the calculation is, that assuming the average time that each convict is employed to be four years, the gain that will accrue after paying the cost of passage money, the cost of superintendence, and that of maintenance, will be no less than 42 l., that is, above 10 l. a year each. I think this highly satisfactory, not merely as showing the effects of this system in promoting the industry of the convicts; for I believe we may lay down this rule, that wherever we find labour effectively applied—where there is a valuable result obtained from the labour of convicts—we may rest satisfied that the system of discipline is not a bad one; but when, on the contrary, the value of the work done by the convicts, as in Van Diemen's Land, is very small, then we may conclude that the system of discipline is generally lax and ineffective. I do not mean to say that this is altogether a certain test of the efficiency of a system of punishment; but you may conclude, with tolerable accuracy, that great abuses do not prevail where much valuable work is done, because the very fact that men work hard shows that the convicts have little time or inclination to commit breaches of discipline. But, my Lords, hitherto the period of a man's release from punishment has not been made sufficiently dependent on his conduct while undergoing it. To a certain extent, this was always practised as to the convicts in the hulks; but I think that by reducing it to something like a rule, keeping a regular register of the conduct of the convicts (as was suggested by the instructions of my noble Friend opposite, as to Van Diemen's Land, which I think were perfectly right), a system might be carried into effect which would contribute to render labour of this kind

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extremely valuable as a punishment, while a security is afforded against those abuses which formerly existed to a great extent. [A Noble LORD: You have not stated the period of employment on public works.] What is intended is this, that every convict who behaves well and works industriously, and does not incur fresh punishment for misconduct, shall be enabled to obtain his discharge at the termination of half the period for which sentence was originally passed; so that if a man is sentenced to seven years' transportation, if he conducts himself well and is industrious, he may obtain his discharge at from three and a half to four years from the period at which his punishment commenced. Now, my Lords, I ought to say that in adopting this system, we do propose to retain the only real advantage which formerly existed in the system of transportation; because, objectionable as in many respects that system undoubtedly was, it was not without some compensatory advantage. That advantage was this—that whereas in this country a man whose character is once blasted by undergoing the sentence of the law, that man, at the expiration of his sentence, however good his intentions and strong his desire to give up his criminal habits and return to a life of honest industry, finds himself encompassed with great difficulties in attaining his object. Employment of every description is closed against him; wherever he goes his character meets him, and closes against him every eligible employment. In the intense competition for employment in this country, he is invariably defeated by other competitors in the race; and thus, I am afraid, it is too true that a vast number of men, after having served out their period of punishment, and who entertain a strong and sincere desire not to be led again into criminal courses, are driven again to the commission of crime by absolute distress. On the other hand, in the Australian colonies, labour is in such great demand, that generally a man, disposed to behave well, however criminal his former conduct may have been, has no difficulty in finding employment; and the convict is thus enabled, if he so likes, to restore himself to a respectable condition in society. That was, in my opinion, the only redeeming feature in the old system of transportation; and, under it, there were frequently instances of men holding tickets of leave, or conditional pardons, becoming honest and industrious members of society; many have ac-
916
cumulated large fortunes, their families having joined them in the colonies, and they have become respectable members of society. In one respect, the advantages thus obtained, extended to such a degree as to operate injuriously on transportation as a punishment; because I perfectly well remember seeing a letter written by a transported convict, in which the writer said to the party whom he was addressing, "You remember So-and-so: he was transported for sheep-stealing, he now lives at So-and-so, keeps a gig, and is a very thriving gentleman." Now, a letter of that kind was not calculated to cause transportation to be regarded at home as a very formidable punishment. Nevertheless, we may, I think, retain the advantages of transportation, and reject the evils by which it has been too often accompanied. Her Majesty's Government propose that at the expiration of their period of imprisonment and penal labour, all convicts should be required to go to the Australian colonies, not strictly speaking as a part of their punishment, since on the contrary, we hold it to be really an advantage that the criminal should, at the end of the period for which he is sentenced, be enabled by his industry and good conduct to raise himself in one of our colonies to a better situation of life than he could in all probability reach at home. We, therefore, propose that during the latter period of his punishment—his employment on public works—the convict shall receive nearly the full value of his labour—not in money payments at the time (except in small sums, to keep industry alive), but in an accumulated sum at the expiration of his period of punishment, so as to afford him the means of emigrating. It is further proposed, that the convict who thus earns the means of paying for his own conveyance to the colonies, and who has conducted himself for the required time to the satisfaction of the superintending officers in England, shall receive a conditional pardon, the condition being that he shall not remain in England. Under this system, convicts will be placed in the same situation as if, under the existing system, they had incurred the preliminary part of their punishment in Van Diemen's Land, where the convicts who behave well receive conditional pardons, by which they are enabled to go to any part of Australia, and are to all intent free men, except that they must not return to this country. I may say, that at present there is not in general any strong desire to return to this

917
country, as they find it far more advantageous to remain in the colony. In the same manner it is proposed that conditional pardons should be given to offenders at the termination of their period of employment on public works in this country. I am encouraged to hope that this system may be attended with beneficial results, in consequence of what I have observed with respect to the exiles to Port Philip, of whose progress satisfactory accounts have been received. The accounts relative to the exiles sent to Van Diemen's Land are less satisfactory on the whole, in consequence of the unfortunate state of things existing there, as the exiles have latterly found in that place as much difficulty in getting employment as they would at home. Owing to the excessive number of convicts who have been sent to Van Diemen's Land, the advantage of certain employment no longer exists: there is now difficulty in their getting employment; a great many, after being promised freedom, are obliged to remain in the "hiring gangs," because they are unable to find persons to employ them; and, according to the last accounts, above 3,000 persons were still in these "hiring gangs." Consequently the exiles sent to Van Diemen's Land have not done so well as might have otherwise been expected; but those sent to Port Philip, where the demand for labour is great, have done exceedingly well, and the report with respect to them is in the highest degree satisfactory. I trust, therefore, that when these offenders, who shall have been subject at home to punishment, and to the system of treatment which will not only be of a reformatory kind, but which will be directed with the view of teaching them those branches of industry most valuable in the colonies—I trust, and indeed I have not the least doubt, that on their arrival in Australia they will be welcome to the inhabitants, and that their emigration will be attended with great advantages both to the colony and themselves. It is not proposed that these men should go out without their families. With respect to the exiles to Port Philip, after so short an imprisonment as they underwent, it would have been impossible to allow their families to accompany them without making the punishment nugatory—indeed, something like a reward. But with respect to offenders who shall be employed in this country in penal labour on public works, in addition to a period of confinement, and who subsequently shall be sent abroad at their own
918
expense, the cost being defrayed out of their own earnings, the same objection will not apply, and their families may go with them; and to this I attach great importance. To go on with any system which should keep up that frightful inequality of the sexes which has hitherto existed in Australia, would be altogether inexcusable in the British Government or British Parliament. We are bound not to allow such a state of things to go on. But care being taken that the punishment of these exiles shall be first reformatory, and then conducted according to a system which shall secure to them an industrial and intellectual education; care being taken that no man shall be cast out from these places of punishment without knowing at least how to read and write, without being taught to know his responsibility to his Creator, as well as those particular trades which are most likely to be of use in the colonies—pains of this kind being taken beforehand in preparing these men for the life they are afterwards to lead, I am persuaded that there will then be found a class of persons whose going to the colonies will be attended with no disadvantage whatever. This will be more likely to be the case if, as I hope, it should be found possible that they may be sent out in such a manner as not to be recognised as criminals on their arrival. I see no reason why arrangements should not be made by which their passage may be made in emigrant ships, so that they would go out among other free emigrants, and on their arrival would be undistinguished in the general mass of emigrants, and would not be recognised as criminals. Of course many of them will be so recognised; but if their general conduct is such as I trust it will be, they will have no difficulty in getting over any prejudices which may arise from their former life; for as your Lordships are aware a public meeting has been held at Port Philip, at which there was a strong expression of feeling in favour of a larger number of exiles being sent there, I think it is of great importance that it should be made perfectly clear that this emigration was not a part of what might be strictly called the penal portion of the sentence. This emigration is not part of the punishment which they had to undergo, but it is a security against their again falling into crime, and an advantage to themselves. With this view I propose, with respect to those convicts for whose future good conduct trustworthy persons in

919
this country shall consent to be responsible, that they shall be relieved, if they so think proper, from the necessity of emigration, and their sentence will be considered complete when they regularly quit the public works. I attach great importance to this point, because I know that it will be asserted, that to revert to exile as a punishment is a step in a backward direction, and that it is reviving a barbarous and exploded system. I cannot altogether admit this; but, on the other hand, in order to maintain the efficiency of the system, it should be made clear that this emigration, which is an advantage to the individuals, is not to be considered as a part of the punishment. The criminals should be taught to regard the imprisonment and employment on public works as the real punishment, and not the emigration by which they are followed. I shall now point out the mode in which it is intended that this system should be carried into effect. On this head I have the satisfaction of informing your Lordships, that in the course of the present year it is calculated that means will be available in Great Britain by which every convict sentenced to transportation can be made to undergo the proposed preliminary period of separate confinement. The prison accommodation in Pentonville, Parkhurst, Millbank, and some of the county prisons, is sufficient for the purpose. Your Lordships are aware that since the change which took place last year, and according to which the maintenance of the convicts in the county prisons is charged on the public, county magistrates have no objection to the spare accommodation of county prisons being made available for the general wants of the public. Therefore, when in county gaols there are certain cells not immediately wanted, these cells will be made use of for convicts sent from other parts of the country. With respect to the convicts sentenced in Great Britain, there will be no difficulty in the present year in carrying into execution this part of their sentence. In Ireland I am sorry to say that the same is not at present the case. There is not sufficient accommodation for the separate confinement of Irish convicts; but no time will be lost in providing that accommodation; and it is proposed that a prison shall be built in Ireland for the reception of Irish convicts. Now, with regard to the disposal of the convicts sentenced to transportation after passing their period of imprisonment in separate cells, it has been found on an
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examination into the available means at the command of Government, and on a calculation of the probable number of convicts to be disposed of, that for that number we shall be able to make provision; I have the assurance of my right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department, that no serious difficulty will be encountered as to this part of the proposed change. Of course it will be necessary for the present to make use of hulks; but every effort will be made to improve the system of discipline on board those hulks. Already a good deal has been done in appointing additional officers for the management of prisoners, and in taking all the precautions in our power for the maintenance of discipline. But after all, I admit that hulks are but imperfect prisons, and I am of opinion that prisons on shore should be substituted for them as soon as possible. It is intended that the convicts should be employed where great public works are in progress, and removed when these are completed. In Portland, there are now public works in progress, and Portland itself possesses great advantages for a permanent convict establishment. Being a peninsula, it admits of arrangements for the safe custody of the convicts, while at the same time they can labour out of doors. But, further, a great quantity of stone will have to be quarried for various public works in progress, at which labour the convicts may be most advantageously employed. With reference to harbours of refuge, fortifications, and such works, which I know the noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington) is anxious to see completed as soon as possible, the labour of convicts will be of great value. The engineer officers whom I have consulted, are of opinion that the convict labour on such works will produce to the country a full equivalent for the cost of their maintenance, including superintendence and every other charge. My own opinion goes that length also. These are the measures proposed to be adopted as to male convicts, for all my observations have been made with reference to adult male convicts only. With respect to female convicts, it is determined they shall be sent to Van Diemen's Land for the present. Considerable pains have been taken to ensure a better system of discipline for female convicts in Van Diemen's Land; and considering the difficulty of disposing of them at home, it is thought best to send them there for the present. With respect to

921
juvenile offenders, a modification of the system now proposed will be necessary. That is a part of the subject which will be soon brought under your Lordships' notice, and for the present I postpone all reference to it. Such are the grounds on which Her Majesty's Government have come to the conclusion that a change of policy ought to be adopted; and without further observations I beg to move the second reading of this Bill.
LORD BROUGHAM: Nothing could be more satisfactory to him than to express his approval of the distinct, clear, and candid statement which had just been made by his noble Friend. He would not then enter further into the nature of the proposed alterations, than simply to state that considerable doubt remained upon his mind as to the propriety of totally abolishing the punishment of transportation. He had come to the same result as the Government, with respect to a great diminution of the punishment, not only from the evidence contained in the books on the Table, but from a long experience of and constant attention to the subject; and after examining many of the highest authorities on criminal police, he had satisfied his mind that the punishment of transportation must cease as a general infliction; but he was not prepared to say that it ought to be wholly abandoned. He remembered that in 1832 or 1833, Archbishop Whately addressed a letter on the punishment of transportation to the revered and lamented father of the noble Earl. His lamented Friend and then respected Colleague and himself agreed with the Archbishop in all but one thing: they were unwilling to give up that system of punishment absolutely in all cases. He was still of opinion that it was a punishment which would be good for certain cases; those cases to form the exception, not the rule. The objection to transportation, besides those of a political and a moral nature, was the entire and incurable inequality in the aspect and the nature of the punishment, inasmuch as to some it was the greatest punishment which could be inflicted upon them, short of that of death; while to others it was only a moderate sort of punishment, the object of dislike and aversion; and to a third class, it was little or no punishment at all. That was the great objection to transportation — that must never be lost sight of; the aspect of the punishment was various to the different individuals to whom it was addressed as an
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example. But he still doubted whether it was safe to abandon it absolutely and altogether. We ought not to give up, rashly or inconsiderately, any branch of our penal system. Many eminent and humane individuals were strongly against all capital punishments: he could not agree with those persons, because, although they might not inflict it more than three or four times in the year—although it might not be necessary to inflict it more frequently—nevertheless he would not give up the punishment of death—he would maintain it even for those comparatively few instances to which it might be peculiarly applicable. Precisely for the same reason, he was doubtful whether they ought to abandon—whether they ought to deprive themselves of the power of—punishing some criminals with transportation. If that punishment were confined to a few cases, the main objection to it would be at an end—then its inequality would cease, and the penal settlement would be manageable. He would confine that punishment to persons who had moved in a superior rank of life, because to persons of that description the punishment of transportation was an awful punishment indeed—it was the most awful punishment which could be inflicted on them short of death. A few years ago a malefactor of that kind was so punished for a gross fraud; he would say no more of that case, because the punishment was still in force, than that for such a case transportation was the proper punishment. An individual had been tried the other day before his noble and learned Friend (Lord Denman); if he was in a state in which punishment ought to be inflicted at all, he ought to be subjected to a punishment of that description—to a person of that class it was a punishment only short of death. Again, and promptly, those curses to society, the receivers of stolen property—those who carried on that detestable trade, with whom the law was in perpetual conflict, out of which the law rarely came victorious—those persons carried on their detestable trade with some amount of capital—they were persons who were outwardly reputable—persons who in the eyes of the world had, at least, an apparent respectability—to such persons the punishment of transportation would be almost as bad as the infliction of capital punishment. They were the upholders of all offences against property—they were at the very root of crime—they were the cause of all the depredations which were committed by thieves of all ages and de-

923
scriptions, who infested society in the present day. It was melancholy to think of the misery they occasioned. Those in the profession to which he had the honour to belong, would recollect cases where an honest man's hopeless bankruptcy was actually traceable, link by link, to the facilities given to his servants or others for robbing him by the receivers of stolen property. To those persons transportation was the greatest terror, for it utterly destroyed their vile trade; and therefore he would be reluctant that that punishment, so well adapted to this case, should be abandoned. The only other part of the plan of his noble Friend upon which he would make any observation, was one to which he could not agree. He entertained some doubt as to the possibility of the deportation of the supposed reformed criminals being so easily effected as his noble Friend seemed to expect. On that subject he entertained some doubt—he entertained none whatever as to the exile. When a person was partly or nearly reformed—when he had obtained the necessary certificates, he was to be sent to Australia in an emigrant ship—not as part of his punishment, oh, no—not as part of his punishment, only he must go. Well, whether it was to be part of his punishment or no, still he was to go out as an emigrant, and, as his noble Friend said, he was to go out without his fellow-passengers finding out that he had been a convict. Unless he and his family had lost their powers of speech, it would not be long before a line would be drawn upon the deck, to one side of which the emigrants would adhere, and the convict and his family would be confined to the other. But as to the exile, he had no doubt whatever. That, in 1847, they should be restoring the old abandoned cases and obsolete punishment of the Scotch law of banishment, was most extraordinary—a punishment which was reprobated and ridiculed by Sir George Mackenzie, as long as 180 years ago, who denounced it as a barbarous and inhuman practice—inhuman, to send your convict population to your neighbours; and impolitic, because it was a game which two could play at; for your neighbours could send you their convicts in return. Such was the view of the earliest writer upon the subject; and Mr. Alison, the latest, was of a similar opinion; for he said, that the penalty in question was an exploded punishment, and one only fit for an infant state of society and legislation. Now, he was fully of Mr. Alison's opinion.
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For let us consider for a moment how the system would work. As soon as the time of penal labour was over, would come into operation that part of the sentence which would send the convict abroad. But it was said that this was not to be made a part of the punishment. Well, but was he to be allowed to go abroad or stay at home, just as he pleased? If he must go abroad, that necessity was just as much part of the punishment as it was part of the sentence. He was to be compelled to go. He may say, "As it is not part of the punishment, I shall not go." "Oh, but," say you, "although it is not part of the punishment, you must go." "Oh, then," says he, "if I must go, it is part of the punishment." His noble Friend said it was necessary, in order that he might not fall back into his course of crime—it was necessary, in order to protect society; but if it were to prevent him from sinning again, why not put him to death? They might say to the partly-reformed criminal, after he had served his proper time in labouring on the public works, "This is no part of your punishment; but, in order to prevent you from returning to your bad courses, we are only going to remove your head—but, remember, it is no part of your punishment; we only want to protect society." It was just as a surgeon might say to a patient of amputation. It was all a question of removing. In the latter case it was of removing a limb; in the former, of removing a head. They might say, "We are only going to remove your head; it is no punishment." So of this plan. "It is only exile; you are only to be removed; it is no punishment; the exile is only compulsory." But, after all, where were they to go to? If they may go where they like, they may go to Calais. Well, when they got there, what was to prevent them from coming back again? How could that be provided against? No means existed to do so. The Liverpool convict would come to London, and the London one would go to Liverpool; and no one could prevent them from doing so. He certainly should like to see what would be said at the French custom-house upon the arrival of a cargo of live convicts. The officer would inquire of the captain of the ship, as to his cargo, "Is it hams, or carcases, or food, or manufactured goods?" "Oh, no," would the captain say, "oh, no; no hams, but convicts." "Convicts! what sort of goods are they?" Then the captain, mustering his best French, would explain, that they

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were merely thieves, highway robbers, perjured persons, who had, by the breach of all sorts of duties at home, become liable to an importation duty abroad. He was afraid the French would soon put on a prohibitory duty upon the importation of such cargoes; most undoubtedly they would not like them to come into their country. The authorities would say, "Oh, you can't come here without passports, and we shan't give you any." Or, at all events, were they to be admitted, it would be on the reciprocity principle. If we send our convicts there, we must expect them to send their convicts here—a process which would by no manner of means increase the benefits and advantages of the entente cordiale. He had no doubt but that on further consideration this part of the plan would not be adhered to. They might preach to the end of time to the French—they might say, "These men have certainly been ruffians, but they have as certainly ceased to be so;" and you will still be answered thus: "How do you know that? They are probably just as bad as ever." "No, no," you will rejoin, "they come with excellent certificates from the chaplain of Pentonville vouching for their reformation, they have earned I know not how many of Captain Maconochie's marks. You may safely take them; they are most excellent worthy people." "But," says the mayor of Calais, "if they are such excellent, worthy people, why won't you keep them yourselves? We don't want them. We have plenty of excellent, worthy people, of the same description. We have numbers in every rank of crime, and every degree of reformation and improvement; therefore, keep your good people on your side of the water, and we will keep our good people on ours." The plan would not bear serious investigation — it was introducing into the English law the punishment of banishment, certainly not for the first time, because it was enacted as a punishment by one of the "Six Acts," against the enactment of which he and his noble and learned Friend (Lord Denman) had fought most strenuously, although unavailingly; but it was never once put in force. That punishment, however, was attached to an offence which would have proved no stumbling-block in the way of persons suffering it being received in France — it was enacted against political libellers. Now, the French might have no objection to receive a few political libellers from the Strand,
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although they might have a strong objection to the importation of a few highwaymen from St. Giles's. Some other parts of the statement of his noble Friend were exceedingly satisfactory, more especially those relating to the improvement of prison discipline. To carry into effect a proper system, would require a very considerable expenditure of the public money; but in what way could it be spent with more advantage to the country? A bad and vicious system of prison discipline, was caused by the want of good prisons; and he trusted much time would not be allowed to elapse without a large number of gaols being provided, each having the means of affording industrial employment to their inmates, either in the field or the workshop. To talk of the expense of providing these, was absurd and grossly inconsistent. They were spending hundreds of thousands on matters useless as compared with this. The abolition of the system of transportation, or even if it were maintained within the bounds which he approved, would put at their disposal a revenue of 4 or 500,000 l. a year. That was the cost of the system, besides the cost of the penal settlement itself; and that sum would provide not only proper gaols, but also provide them with proper workshops. He was exceedingly happy to hear the statement of his noble Friend with respect to the working of the convict system at Gibraltar. He had entertained no expectation that the clear gain from the labour of a convict would amount to 12 l. per year, and that after paying the expense of carrying him there, his maintenance, and in fact, all expenses to the Government. [Earl GREY: It did not include the cost of the hulks.] No; but still it was gratifying to find that his labour provided the convict with food and clothing, and left a residue of 12 l. a year. That was a fair encouragement to extend the system still further, and make all confinement be accompanied by industry.
LORD STANLEYwas quite aware that there were few of their Lordships who were not more competent to address the House on this question than himself; but he hoped that he might find an excuse for making a few observations upon it, in the circumstance that he had formerly held the office of Colonial Secretary, and during that period had taken and still continued to take a deep interest in the subject immediately under consideration. He was anxious to take this opportunity, because, if he rightly understood his noble Friend

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opposite, it was likely to be the last opportunity their Lordships would have of expressing their opinions upon the proposition before them—of stating his views with respect to that proposition. No doubt the measure was brought forward in a laudable desire of improvement; but he must not, at the same time, hesitate to say that he thought Her Majesty's Government were rather hastily adopting summary and extensive changes, and departing from a system which might have been, and no doubt was, at the present moment, subject to considerable abuses, but which was yet, in his opinion, valuable to a very great degree. The subject was one of very grave importance; and he must express his regret should this be the last opportunity their Lordships were to have to discuss and to consider it, and, if they should think necessary, to interfere with the course about to be pursued with regard to it. Because if it were competent to the Government and to the judges of the land to commute all past sentences of transportation to imprisonment, the object of the Bill was clearly not to be applied to individual cases, but to introduce an entire change in our system of punishing crime—a change which he believed would be most doubtful in its effects; and therefore he said, that such an important step ought not to be taken without receiving the fullest consideration at the hands of Parliament, and receiving also its sanction by an act of its own. He was afraid that there had been a good deal of haste, not only on this occasion, but on former occasions, in dealing with the question of transportation. He, for one, entertained very great doubts as to the policy of abolishing the punishment of transportation; for he believed that transportation, looking at it in the two points of view in which they ought to look at all descriptions of secondary punishments—namely, as a means of deterring persons from crime, and for the reformation of the individuals who committed crime—looking at it in these points of view, his belief was, that transportation was the punishment most dreaded by the hardened; the one which produced the greatest effect on those on whom it was passed, and on those who heard the sentence pronounced. Those persons who would, under the noble Lord's measure, be sentenced to three and a half years' imprisonment, and afterwards to hard labour upon public works, would, he was quite sure, look with very different feelings upon a sentence of transportation for twenty, four-
928
teen or even ten years. He was decidedly of opinion that the system of transportation could be carried on with the advantage of promoting the reformation of convicts, as well as the punishment of them. The opinion of the Committee which sat in 1821 was open, in his opinion, to great objections. It was quite true, as the noble Earl had observed, that the system of assignment as a punishment was very unequal, because very much depended on the temper and character of the masters to whom the convicts were assigned. To some convicts it was a heavy punishment; to others, a trifling one; and to others again, it was no punishment at all. This he would concede; but still, after the convict had undergone a period of penal labour in the colony, the system of assigning him for a period, at the end of his punishment, was in many respects a good one. If facilities and checks, which might have been devised, had been adopted, the convict, after undergoing a more severe punishment under the superintendence of Government, would have been, on his assignment, again introduced into private life and uncontaminated society; an event which was of itself capable of producing, and did produce, the most signal advantage to the character and disposition of persons subjected to that punishment. He thought that a hasty step had been taken in 1840, when the Government determined that transportation to New South Wales should altogether cease, and that Van Diemen's Land should be the single point to which the flood of convict emigration should be directed. He would also remark, that the abolition of the probation gangs had been coincident with the decline in prosperity of the former colony. Nothing could have been more unfortunate than the adoption of the new system, and nothing could have been more difficult than the state of affairs the local government had to contend against in consequence. He repeated, that he was perfectly satisfied that transportation had, generally speaking, acted, and was at present acting, beneficially on the persons who were subjected to it. He would not trouble their Lordships with any observations as to the nature of the horrors which were described in the papers before the House as having taken place in our penal settlements; they were almost too dreadful to contemplate. One could scarcely believe that such things could have occurred; and he had no doubt whatever that they would not have occurred

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if a proper system of superintendence and watchfulness had been established—if ordinary precautions had been adopted, the disgusting facts which were described in the book before him might, in every instance, have been prevented. But, let their Lordships look to the general picture before them as to the condition of the convict under the system the Government were about to abolish. The evidence all showed that a great improvement had taken place in the condition of the convicts. He took it from a letter which had been published by the noble Earl opposite in the papers laid before the House, from the Rev. Mr. Fry, who was not an advocate for the continuance of transportation, except for minor offences. He (Lord Stanley) would first however, take the liberty of reading a passage from a petition on the "probation system," which was presented to the Governor in August, 1845:—
"We would desire to cultivate and express gratitude to Divine Providence that our moral condition is so good, rather than aggravate its evils or anticipate its deterioration. Our metropolis does not yield to any seaport and garrison town of Great Britain, of equal population, for orderly conduct and regularity in the streets. The convicts present no appearance shocking to humanity. The clank of chains is now seldom heard; and the deportment of free labourers, grateful and respectful, has succeeded to the scowl of malignity with which the assigned white slaves regarded their owners."
Now, he must say, that it was a scandal and a shame to this country, that until the year 1842 we had not provided a minister of religion to attend to the spiritual wants of the unfortunate convicts we sent out to our colonies; and it was a matter of great satisfaction to him that during the period he held office, he had sent out several Protestant ministers and Roman Catholic clergymen to give spiritual instruction to those persons, and he believed that their efforts had been productive of very great good; and he was rejoiced, moreover, to hear from the Roman Catholic bishop who had recently left this country on his return to the colony, that although he bore witness to many of the horrors stated in these papers, yet he was convinced that the want was not in the system itself, but in the manner in which it was administered. He said that these horrors were capable of being checked, and in his judgment the continuance of transportation as a secondary punishment was absolutely necessary. But to return to the petition from
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which he had already quoted. It went on, in another part to state—
"Twelve or fifteen ministers of religion pursue their holy calling to congregations very numerous in proportion to the population; and the charity of the community has been often so exemplified as to reflect upon it the highest credit. Religion has taken deep hold in the community, and every Protestant family have their Bible, and means and opportunities of religious service and instruction. Parents in every condition of life exhibit a strong desire for the general education and the religious instruction of their children; and in proportion to the population the number of children in this colony attending school is vastly greater than that in England, and perhaps exceeds that of any other community. For the first time in the history of mankind, reformation has been adopted as the principle of penal discipline. In the prisons of Great Britain, reformation was found impracticable, for the discharge of the offender was his return to the scenes and companions of his crimes. The treadmill became the place of concerting future robberies, and the termination of sentence delivered the criminal as to a triumph among his accomplices awaiting his discharge. It was thus found that the same criminals were constantly returning to a repetition of punishments, amounting in some cases to an almost incredible number. The temptations and opportunities for crime were as great as the motives and means of reformation were small. The transportation of criminals to a distant country, where honest labour was well remunerated without the facilities for theft which existed in the great towns of England, seemed to supply the desideratum, and was carried into effect in these colonies. For forty years the Government was content to land the convicts on our shores, and to distribute them among the settlers, without providing adequate means for their protection or instruction. Representations and reports from this colony stigmatizing the assignment of convicts as a "white slavery," and describing it as full of horrors and iniquities, led the Government, after an inquiry by a Committee of the House of Commons, to abolish assignment and adopt the probation system. Then, for the first time, an attempt was made to Christianise the convicts. For periods exceeding two years, the probation men are taught in schools the principles of religion and to read the Bible. They are instructed in religion by religious teachers, and join in daily worship. Their habits of vice are broken off, and regularity of life is practised. Drunkenness, the cause of calamity to most of them, is stopped, if not cured; habits of obedience, submission, and labour are acquired; and if not reformed at heart, they are dismissed to society with a knowledge of religion and morality, and the practice of a regular and orderly life. In the probation gangs, the men receive instruction gladly, and repay their instructor, if he be kind and attentive, with gratitude and respect. The discipline is maintained by the moral influence of the system; and the men patiently obey its directions from a sense of the mercy and interest for their welfare which it displays, from the hope which it opens of honest independence, and from the exact impartiality with which it is administered. That so many parties composed of such materials, and almost abandoned to self-discipline, should have so long lived tranquilly in remote

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districts, unawed by a surrounding force, is a subject of great thankfulness, and a practical evidence of one great attribute of the system—that it can exist by its own power and influence upon the men."
In the month of August, 1846, Mr. Fry, in letter addressed to the noble Lord opposite, referring to the statements in the petition, says—
"I gladly declare that the statements in that paper, of the wonderful tranquillity, security, and good order of the colony, are completely true, and that the condition of the emancipists, ticket-of-leave, and probation passholders, is not inferior to that of persons in the same stations and occupations in England or elsewhere; that the presence of convicts has not a seriously demoralising effect upon the habits or manners of the free inhabitants, male or female; and that instances of reformation and of respectable conduct in the convicts are very common, and delightful to witness."
And, again, he adds, in the same letter—
"As a proof of the benefits of transportation, I may mention that I have married above one hundred discharged convicts within the past year, and that I believe the great majority of them are living in a condition equal to that of persons in similar stations in England. Lord Stanley's remark that this colony is useful as affording a central station for the dispersion of convicts to neighbouring colonies as free men, is daily borne out by fact, and is most true and beneficial."
With regard to the stages of punishment, he believed that no difference of opinion existed. He approved of the system of the local authorities issuing conditional pardons in Van Diemen's Land, which were available for all the Australian colonies. Convicts who had obtained tickets of leave were permitted to diffuse themselves over the continent without a violation of the engagements of the Government not to send convicts to those other colonies. He believed that his noble Friend admitted the principle of the infliction of severe punishment in the first instance for a certain definite period; from thence successive stages of greater or less restraint, till gradually, by good conduct, the convict should be suffered to emerge among the free and uncontaminated population. But the question was, under what circumstances the preliminary punishment might be effectually carried out; and what was the best manner of sending the convict again into society? The Government could not escape from this difficulty: after the sentence should have been undergone, the convict population must be poured forth on the conntry; and what, then, was to become of them? The noble Earl (Earl Grey) thought it best that the preliminary pun-
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ishment should take place in this country, and that the punishment of transportation, in name, at least, should be abolished. Still it was necessary that the convict population should be poured forth from this country; and where was it most likely the Government would find the means of coercion, and secondly the means of severe penal employment—in the colonies or at home? Whatever the difficulty might be of finding the means of coercion and severe penal employment in distant colonies, that difficulty would be much increased if they endeavoured to find them at home. Considering the vast scale of offences subjected to the punishment of transportation, he was afraid there would not be that distinction between the highest and lowest grades of punishment which ought to be kept up. A man would not much care whether he received six months' imprisonment, which was to be the minimum, or eighteen months, which was to be the maximum; and thus the punishment of penal emigration, or whatever it was to be called, would cease to be a terror to evil-doers. The question of expense, in such a case, was a minor one. If the expense of such a system proved greater, but if, at the same time, it was necessary, then this country would look with comparative indifference on an additional expenditure of 100,000 l., 200,000 l., or 300,000 l. a year. He thought, however, it would be found difficult to apply the system, even at the very outset. He believed the proportion of the male adult population annually sentenced to transportation, was, as nearly as possible, 4,000. It would be necessary, therefore, to begin by finding accommodation in prisons such as Pentonville or Parkhurst for that number annually. From preliminary imprisonment, you were to pass to employment on the public works. Assuming the imprisonment to be half the time of sentence to transportation, that would give five years employment on the public works as the average time of the convicts; that was to say, setting aside calculations for casualties and mortality, they would have five times 4,000, or 20,000 male adult convicts not in one year or five years, but permanently employed on public works. He ventured to say that that was a system which must infallibly break down. He said that it was a system which would revolt, in the first place, the feelings of the people of this country; which, if applied extensively (and if not so applied it could not be applied at all), would seriously interfere with

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the demand for ordinary labour; would throw the whole Government employment for important works, which now employed an industrious population, into the hands of a convict population, who would labour on these works, well fed and well kept, and with the further promise that at the expiration of their sentence they and their families should be sent, as free labourers, to some of the colonies. It would operate as a gross injustice on honest industry, on the unconvicted portion of the population. They had hundreds and thousands of industrious people begging at their hands for that very boon which they were going to confer on the convict at the expiration of his sentence. He might truly say that emigration was no part of the sentence, because when they had gone through the penalty attached to the crime, they would be placed in a situation in which many of their industrious countrymen were begging to be placed. Let the House look further at this question of emigration, as it was proposed to be carried out. They had had some little experience of the feelings in which the different colonies of the empire regarded the presence of convicts. He did not go the length of assuming, as his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) had done, that the Government would send those people to France, or to any other country in which they might desire to settle; but the only evidence they had of the intention of the Government in this respect went to show that they proposed to furnish these convicts and their families with the means of emigration, and to compel them to emigrate. To whom was the choice of the place to be left? Were they to be allowed to choose, out of the whole range of our colonies, that to which they would prefer to be transferred at the expense of the State? And were they to be there under no surveillance, and to be restored, uncontrolled, to society? His noble Friend must not deceive himself as to the result of such an arrangement. Every emigrant ship, if there were to be any efficient system of control, would be known to convey in her a considerable number of convicts. If not, a practical fraud would be committed on the honest emigrant, who would suppose that he and those with him were leaving the country in honest society. Well, then, if it was known what was the character of such portion of those on board, there must necessarily be a separation between them and those of good character, so that there
934
would be a brand upon every man who had been of the convict class from the moment he arrived on shore. He would be regarded only as a convict sent out to fulfil his sentence. He would mention a proof of this. When he was Secretary of State for the Colonies, he felt very anxious to send out a very limited number of the best and most reformed of those who were in Parkhurst and Pentonville prisons. After many difficulties the authorities of Port Philip were induced to consent to allow fifty of them to be sent there. What was the result? Why, that even so small a number gave rise to complaints, and petitions poured in from every British colony that they might not suffer the contamination of being made a penal colony. The Government of this country had pledged itself that New South Wales should no longer be a convict colony. Would it be keeping faith with that colony, if, in the teeth of that promise, substituting for the system of transportation punishment here instead of at Norfolk Island, we said that at the end of a certain number of years, there should be, not transportation, but compulsory emigration, to the extent of 3,000 or 4,000 a year to New South Wales? That might be keeping the promise to the ear, but it would not be keeping it to the sense. But you might say that these persons would be dispersed through all the colonies. The only result of that would be an universal outcry and clamour from every one of them. But how would it act? The expenses of the convicts, it seemed, were to be paid out of their wages. Of course, then they would wish to be sent to the nearest or the most advantageous place. The greatest portion would bo glad to be sent to Canada or North America. Would Canada be satisfied to be made the cloaca maxima of the convict population; or would the State of New York be satisfied to be made one of the deposits for the comtamination of this convict population? By this system it was proposed to do more than to allow them to go; we were to compel them to go; we were to pay for them; we were to find a passage for them; we were to send out officers to see that they did go; and yet we were called upon to suppose that foreign countries and our own colonies would be deluded into the belief that this was not a virtual renewal of the system of transportation. He was convinced, then, that they might change the name of transportation by this system, but they would not alter its nature. Although you might say that

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Van Diemen's Land was no longer to be a penal colony, you would make every colony more or less a penal colony. Whilst purporting to keep the colonies uncontaminated, you were unduly pouring in a vast stream of convict population. Yet the preliminary system would involve the country in a great expense, while few, if any, greater facilities of reformation would be afforded than might, at a very little more expense, by the employment of efficient officers, be had in the colonies themselves. The public works system, he was convinced, for the reasons he had stated, must break down. Now he must say, on the whole, that he conceived it would be more advantageous to limit, if it was desired, the extent to which transportation should be carried; not applying it indiscriminately, and, above all, not to juvenile offenders to the extent it had been; making the sentence of imprisonment by law more frequent, and that of transportation more infrequent; but when imposed, not systematically departing from it, and substituting something else in its stead: if the number of convicts sent to penal colonies being thus diminished, an official control, watch, and discipline were maintained, and a proper superintendence established, under a system, for the reformation of those convicts, who might be subjected to a discipline equally good with that proposed to be effected by this preliminary system at home—who might be employed in clearing land, in quarrying stone, and building public works—in every way, in short, that would not interfere with individual labour; so that at the last, as their terms expired, they might be able to transfer themselves by twos, and and threes, and fours, to neighbouring colonies, not being sent by the Government, and so become a benefit to, say Van Diemen's Land, or other colonies similarly situated; and thus all the advantages obtained, with none of the disadvantages that were expected by the noble Lord from his system of primary punishment. He doubted much, too, whether the immediate change proposed would not be too summary and hasty before it was possible to get into full operation that by which it was proposed to replace it; and whether, also, it would not in fact introduce greater abuses than those which they sought to avoid. He had taken the liberty of expressing his doubts on the subject; and he might be allowed to add the expression of his hope that no final and irremediable step would be taken by the Government without the Parliament and
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the country being afforded a full opportunity—he hoped by Act of Parliament—of expressing their opinions on the details and the probable practical workings of the system proposed—a system which had reference to almost the most important question which could affect the social happiness and the morality of this country.
LORD DENMANsaid, it was highly gratifying to know that the Government had bestowed so much attention on so important a subject, and that it had been discussed in the manner it had been. If, in the short time he had had to look at the papers on the Table, he had the least right to give an opinion on the details of this proposed system, he should beg leave to say that he was extremely rejoiced that the Norfolk Island establishment was to be broken up, and that, in the present state of the authorities of Van Diemen's Land, and the circumstances there with respect to transportation, the system there should be for some time suspended. But when he heard it proposed that that great power which consisted in the terror of transportation should be abolished; that that great terror should be withdrawn from the minds of those who, if not actually criminals, might be contemplating crime, he could not but regard such an intention with the greatest possible dismay—he could use no lighter term. Suppose the case—not of the poor, the ignorant, or the sinning, because not better instructed; but of those who might be leagued together for the purpose of crime or of stimulating crime, who, with large capital and well-constructed and contrived association—suppose those men were told, as they would be, "whatever crime you commit, you shall not be transported for it," he (Lord Denman) could not but view with some alarm the consequences which were likely to ensue from such a course, in the extension of crime, and in its effect on the security of all persons in this country. He did not believe that the punishment of transportation was without the greatest terror for offenders. He could state from his own experience, and, he believed, he might say from that of all the judges for some years past, that they had all seen examples—not constantly, but on many occasions—of the overwhelming terror of transportation. No person could witness a sentence of transportation being passed in a court of justice, without being struck by it; there was no person pausing on the verge of crime, who would not be deterred by it. He did not wish to repeat what his

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noble Friend had so forcibly stated as to the effect of transportation; but there was one fact which had rather been lost sight of, and that was the great importance of removing influential persons, whether by their talents, wealth, or habits, from all connexion with those whom they probably were paying, employing, and instructing daily in the commission of crime. The receiver of stolen goods was often a man of perfect respectability as to his general appearance and conduct; he paid his tradesmen regularly; he had a long beadroll of witnesses as to character, meaning punctuality in the neighbourhood in which he resided; but that man was a normal teacher to the extent of thousands of young convicts, who were kept in full pay and employ by him. If he was convicted, was it no terror to him, surrounded by the comforts of life, to be told, "From the moment of your conviction by the law, you are no longer a subject of England, except that you may be punished; you shall no longer corrupt the young; you shall go where you can commit no more crime, where you can produce no more criminals; and the sentence which will be imposed upon you will be instantly carried into effect!" He apprehended that no greater benefit could be conferred on society than the removal of such a person from the sphere in which he had been working; and assuredly transportation would at once be a great terror to him, and afford a beneficial example. The infinite multiplication of resident criminals was of very serious consequence. All these persons had friends and connexions with whom they might be in daily communication in some mode or other, and they might endeavour to excite the compassion of the public. And, as the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) had very truly said, the proposed system was very likely not to be carried out at all—that the public mind would be influenced by sentiments of compassion for those who might be exposed to its operation. That was very just. All those who had witnessed the working of these systems of public punishment, would admit the truth of the remark. He did not believe that it would be possible fully to carry out the system among a free people. He did not think that a free people like the English would endure, for instance, such scenes as were witnessed at Marseilles, where the cannon were always planted so as to command the workmen—where the fusillade was always ready in case of a mutiny among them—and yet
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crimes of the blackest die were constantly committed by these wretched criminals. His objection was not confined to the more severe parts of the plan. It seemed a part of it that the convicts were to be secluded for eighteen months at home prior to their suffering the rest of their punishment, with every hope of procuring pardon through good behaviour and the favourable reports of officials. Experience showed that the worst criminals were the best behaved in prison. [The Duke of RICHMOND: For a short time.] Eighteen months were all that was required. That was no very formidable period in the life of a young man; and it was proposed that at the end of that time they should be able to earn wages and gain the right to become proprietors, perhaps in France, or in whatever other place they might choose. Under the old system the terror was extreme, because the suffering was very great to those who were subject to transportation, from the rupture of all natural ties and of all their former associations; while, at the time, there was always a chance of their final restoration to society through the demand for labour in those boundless regions which were still unexhausted by human enterprise. His noble Friend, in one of his despatches, gave a plan for an intended village, to be raised and peopled by convicts, and where certainly life might be enjoyed. But, on the other hand, there was the punishment of leaving home, and after the expiration of the term of punishment a man was to begin a new career of life, and perhaps, from the natural operation of circumstances, he might become a new man, and ultimately contribute to the happiness and prosperity of the community to which he belogned. That was the working of the system of transportation. To a great extent it had been carried out in New South Wales. What had occurred elsewhere seemed more to have resulted from the supineness of some of the officials, than from any other cause. Since he had been made acquainted with the actual effects of a sentence of transportation, he had not been able to bring himself to pass it; he had not availed himself of the power of sending criminals to a penal settlement. At the same time, he was quite of opinion that there might be a system under which convicts might be subjected to labour and discipline in such a manner that they might eventually be restored to a state of mind in which they would be a blessing to their families and to those connected with

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them. He wished before he sat down to point out one or two matters which appeared to him not unworthy of their Lordships' attention in considering the Bill then before them. In the present state of the law a man might be condemned to death for an offence under circumstances which made it doubtful whether such a sentence was perfectly legal or not; and when there was thus a doubt that death could be lawfully inflicted, the convict himself was made a party to a compromise. If he submitted to be transported, he escaped the infliction of death—if he returned from transportation, he forfeited his life. But if they made the change now proposed to be effected in the law, they set the escaped convict free from capital punishment; and, having done that, how did they propose to deal with masses of men leagued together for purposes of crime, and led by persons of perverted ingenuity and large pecuniary means? A petition had been intrusted to him, which, as it was respectfully worded, he was bound to present. The petitioners demanded a total abolition of capital punishment. The suspension, and, still more, the discontinuance of transportation, might lead to the increase of capital punishment. Now, he called upon their Lordships carefully to consider the resistance which they might have to encounter from the pressure of public opinion upon this subject. Any increase of capital punishment must be attended with very serious difficulties. Upon these grounds he confessed he did not think that their Lordships ought to pledge themselves to an important system, or an extensive change.
The DUKE of RICHMONDfelt that he could not add anything to the able arguments which their Lordships had heard respecting the evil of abolishing transportation, and he should therefore confine himself to a very few observations; but he could not help saying that no punishment had proved more effective. It had been announced that as many as 4,000 additional convicts were to be kept in the gaols and prisons of this country. To that plan he saw several objections, founded on the fact that the gaols were not fit for the reception of these prisoners; and it would be inexpedient to try the experiment until prisons had been constructed expressly for the reception of this class of convicts. If they were at once sent to the gaols in tens or twenties, the consequence would be that they would be obliged for the eighteen months, the term of their confinement, to
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continue in cells, deprived of either air or exercise—deprived of every opportunity for self-improvement which would render them useful afterwards. That would be a punishment which would be altogether too severe, and which should not be inflicted on any human being. From his own personal knowledge, he could speak of the terrors the idea of transportation produced on the minds of the convicts. He had often heard them say, "If you keep me here, I care not—do all you can to prevent my being sent across the water. In England I may receive letters from my friends—I may have interviews with my father, with my mother, my wife or children; but if sent to Australia, to hear or to see them there is no hope." That was one reason why they so much disliked transportation, because they never hoped again to see those whom they loved and cherished. Any individual who visited the cells of prisoners must know that the most reckless villain had as deep and as sincere an affection for his wife and children as the most regular or moral member of society. He hoped the noble Earl (Earl Grey) would consider the advice that had been given by the noble and learned Lord, and, instead of carrying out the whole of the proposed experiment, that he would diminish to a certain and safe extent the number to be transported. He knew how difficult it was to define that amount of punishment which would act beneficially on the offender: much depended on his habits of life, much depended on his constitution; yet he was sure that to separate a man, even for a short time, from his associates, would be of use, as it gave him time to reflect—it gave him time to look back on his past life—so that he might be brought to admit, if not to others, yet to himself, that he felt the errors he committed; that he was sorry for his conduct; and that he would endeavour to avoid them in future. In his opinion, the prison at Pentonville had not yet been sufficiently tested. The period when the first ship went out was most unfavourable; there was no work to be had when the convicts landed, and, unfortunately, some of them got drunk, and some went astray; but many of them were most thankful for having been placed in the Pentonville prison. The hulk system, however, was by no means to be equally commended. Many convicts were made worse, rather than improved, by being placed in the hulks. He was most happy to find that the Government was about to remove the prison inspectors from

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having the immediate direction of the Millbank Penitentiary. He objected to that appointment when the Bill was brought before their Lordships. He thought the appointment would do mischief, as it would prevent the valuable services of those men from being extended to the prisons of the country, by which great good, could be effected in introducing one uniform system of prison discipline. He hoped now they would diligently apply themselves to the duties of the new office to which they were appointed, and bring the whole of the prisoners under one uniform system.
EARL GREYsaid, that after the speeches which their Lordships had heard from his noble Friends behind him, and from the noble Lords opposite, it was necessary that he should occupy their attention for a short time by addressing to the House a few words of explanation: and in offering that explanation he should strictly confine himself to the points that had been touched on in the course of the present debate. His noble Friend opposite said that a change so important should not be carried into effect upon any less authority than that of an Act of Parliament. In that opinion he fully agreed with the noble Lord; and he never for a moment doubted that an Act of Parliament would ultimately be necessary. He had not perhaps on the first occasion when he addressed their Lordships, stated what he wished to say with the fulness and clearness that the occasion required; what he meant to say was, that under the existing powers which the Executive Government possessed, under Acts of Parliament already passed, the punishment of transportation might be commuted for imprisonment. It was well known that the late Government had adopted the resolution of suspending for two years the punishment of transportation. As the law gave that power, he saw no reason why advantage might not be taken of the existing law, for the purpose of trying a useful and promising experiment. As, after all, the proposed change must be considered experimental, there seemed to be much convenience in postponing the time of applying to Parliament till the period should have arrived, when, being enabled to judge by the practical working of the plan, how far it was likely to answer, and what modifications it might require, Parliament might proceed with much greater confidence than it now could, to determine upon the system of punishment which should be permanently adopted. For the present, it was intended
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that sentences of transportation should be recorded in conformity with the existing practice; and the House, he presumed, knew perfectly well that every year large numbers of convicts were sent to Gibraltar, to Bermuda, to the hulks, and to Pentonville; so that when he spoke of suspending transportation, he merely referred to a suspension of it so far as Australia was concerned. Large numbers were thus sent to those places, and for the present that practice would be continued; so that, in fact, the proposed change would be, for the present, more apparent than real. He need not remind his noble Friend opposite, but he might as well inform the House, that, until the year 1843, those who were sentenced to seven years' transportation were never, or very rarely, sent abroad. They were almost uniformly sent to the hulks, and thence discharged at the end of four years, if they obtained a certificate of good conduct. Since that time, however, the great majority had been sent abroad. In the present state of the law, there could be no doubt that the practice of punishing by transportation might be suspended. If, hereafter, it was thought expedient to abolish it altogether, of course that change ought to be effected by the express authority of Parliament; but he conceived that it would be disadvantageous to alter the nominal sentence until after the proposed experiment should have been tried. His noble Friend opposite had said that within five years there would be an accumulation of 20,000 convicts, who would produce an evil effect upon the free labour of this country; but if the plan now proposed were adopted, such a result could not possibly ensue, and he therefore did now call upon them to consider whether such a plan was expedient. They could not be blind to this, that convicts must be kept to penal labour somewhere; and he desired to know whether it was easier to keep them to penal labour in this country or in Van Diemen's Land? He believed no one would venture to say that the old system ought to be re-established; no one who looked at the enormous abuses of the ancient system could possibly wish to see it re-established; most especially, he might say, that no one would desire to see the system of assignment re-established; it was a system no less injurious to the masters than it was to the slaves. It was well known to have produced effects similar to those which slavery had produced in our slave colonies. There might be excep-

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tions; but the general rule was, that slavery inflicted enormous evils upon any one who came within the sphere of its pernicious influence. But, after all, what did transportation mean? It meant nothing more than penal labour in a colony instead of penal labour in England. It had been said, that transportation was viewed by convicts with infinite terror; and it was further said, that if the punishment to be inflicted on convicts were to be changed in the manner which the Government proposed, there would be no safety for society in this country; and the case of a receiver of stolen goods was mentioned, as one in which the proposed punishment would be altogether inadequate. But did his noble Friend (Lord Denham), who made this objection, know what, under the old system of transportation, was the amount of punishment really inflicted on such an offender? He had heard it stated—and he believed the statement to be true—that it had actually happened that a man who was a great receiver of stolen goods, perhaps the greatest that ever existed in this country, had been some years ago convicted of this offence, and was transported. He had previously accumulated enormous wealth, and he found no great difficulty in evading the law, so as to protect his moveable property from being forfeited to the Crown. He contrived, by means of bribery, to get himself assigned; he bribed the party to whom he was assigned, and he lived as well and drove as large a trade in stolen goods in New South Wales, as he had ever carried on in this country.
LORD STANLEY: Such offences cannot now be repeated.
EARL GREYresumed: That remark of the noble Lord might be perfectly true; but its truth did not invalidate the force of the argument which he had just used in favour of suspending, for a short time, the practice of transportation. It had been said, that transportation had far more terrors for the criminal than the plan now proposed was likely to have. To enable their Lordships to judge of this, he would briefly compare the two systems. Under the existing system, a man was sentenced to transportation for fourteen years; he was sent to Van Diemen's Land—he was put to a penal gang to labour on the roads. At the end of eight years, if well behaved, he obtained, perhaps, a conditional pardon, under which he might go to America, or India, or China, or anywhere he pleased, provided he did not return to England.
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Under the system now proposed, the criminal, instead of going straight to Van Diemen's Land, was to be sent to Pentonville. Instead of being put to a penal gang, with no real system of discipline in force, he would be placed in the cell of a prison, where there was the strictest and severest system of discipline possible — so severe, that the noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond) thought that eighteen months of it was more than human nature could generally bear. He (Earl Grey) believed the noble Duke was right, and he certainly thought it ought never to be prolonged beyond that time. After that severe punishment, the criminal would be placed on public works in this country, where he would be subjected to precisely the same regulations as he would be in Van Diemen's Land, with this difference, that the system of penal labour to which he would be subjected, would be under the immediate cognizance of Government. So that if anything went wrong, they could instantly check it; and thus all the abuses of the system in Van Diemen's Land would be effectually avoided. If, for instance, they had an inefficient Governor in Van Diemen's Land—a circumstance which no Government could always guard against—it would be two or three years before they could know it; and then, when they did know it, it would be nearly another year before they could make a change. In both cases, then—in the present as well as the proposed system—there was penal labour, and for the same period; but the Government proposed to follow it out. At the end of eight years, the criminal would receive a conditional pardon; and the condition would be, that he should go to Van Diemen's Land. The Government would keep its eye upon him until he was placed on board a ship for Australia, where he would be placed in the same situation as the criminal who at present got a conditional pardon in Australia. When his noble Friend, then, said that the system would be an inefficient one, he surely did not consider that the only practical difference between it and the present system was, that it inflicted penal labour at home instead of in the colonies; being the same sort of labour, and under the same sort of regulation, with the advantage that we had infinitely greater facilities for inflicting it here than we had in the colonies; and that at the end of his punishment he was discharged, a free man in Van Diemen's Land. He reminded the House that he had always

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admitted to the fullest extent that transportation, so far as it provided a refuge for the convict at the end of his punishment, was of great use; and no man denied that it was so. He could not help thinking that his noble Friend had taken an unfair advantage of his (Earl Grey's) saying that he did not consider this a part of their punishment. What he meant was, that he did not consider it a deterring part of the punishment. His noble Friend had said, that the evils of the system in Van Diemen's Land were owing to the fact, that the most common precautions had been neglected. How long had they been so neglected? Certain it was, that a state of things had existed in Van Diemen's Land for six or seven years which could not have existed in this country without public opinion being loudly declared against it, and a reform inevitably enforced. And that was the great advantage of the proposed change. From the distance at which our colonies were placed, we had no means of information respecting it, except from the reports of our own officers; so that it was impossible to have such a security for a due examination of the system as we could have in this country. He begged to remind their Lordships that it was not the rules on paper, but the rules that were enforced, that were of importance. His noble Friend opposite (Lord Stanley) sent out to Van Diemen's Land some admirable rules; but the misfortune was, that there were no proper means of ascertaining whether the rules were enforced or not, or of applying so prompt a remedy if they were not enforced as they would do were the parties within six hours' journey by railway of London. He (Earl Grey) held it to be an inestimable advantage of the system, that it inflicted punishment at home instead of abroad. But his noble and learned Friend had said that a free people could not bear to see penal labour inflicted. Was this the language to be held when they talked of continuing transportation? If we, in this country, where the crimes were committed, could not bear to see the punishment inflicted, were the people of Van Diemen's Land to be compelled to witness the spectacle? He was persuaded that the period had arrived when they must extend the institutions of England to those who lived in the Australian colonies; and he hoped, in the course of the Session, to be able to introduce a Bill for that purpose; and when once the colonists had the advantage of a representative government,
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did their Lordships think that any Government in this country would dare to say that the people here could not bear to see penal labour inflicted on their convicts, and that they must be inflicted in Australia? It would be impossible. To attempt to do so, would be to strive after two contradictory things. They wanted, in the first place, a certain number of men of wealth, intelligence, and capital to employ the convicts when they were sent out there; and at the same time they wanted these men to submit to what they would not submit to themselves. This was impracticable. If they insisted upon continuing the present system of transportation, the effect would be that the free colonists would leave the colony in a body: that was stated in the petition from which he had read an extract to their Lordships; they, at whatever pecuniary sacrifice would abandon the colony; they would take refuge in South Australia, in New South Wales, or some of the neighbouring colonies, and Van Diemen's Land would be left like another Norfolk Island—with no inhabitants but a vast herd of criminals and their keepers. There would be no society of freemen to watch over the conduct of the officers; and the consequence would be that every abuse that was seen in Norfolk Island would be wrought in that colony. But the noble Duke had said the punishment of transportation was infinitely effective, because he had heard men in Pentonville Prison say that they did not care for imprisonment, but that they could not bear the idea of being removed across the seas away from their parents, their wives, and their children. He (Earl Grey) suspected that the habitual and hardened felon had very little feeling of that kind. The professional criminal had few family ties, and was very callous to those which he had formed. It was the person who was accidentally betrayed into crime, who was tortured by such feelings as the noble Duke had referred to. But, if it were thought advisable to enforce a separation, between criminals and their friends—if it were deemed of importance that criminals should be deprived of the advantages in this respect which men not guilty of crime enjoyed—this could be done as completely at Pentonville or Portland Isle as at Van Diemen's Land. His own opinion was, however, that to allow that intercourse to take place within certain bounds, was a better system. In the old days of transportation, it was the invariable practice, in the case of men who obtained a conditional

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pardon in our penal colonies, to send out their wives and families to them. This system had, in his opinion, been injudiciously discontinued. The Government proposed to resume that system. The idea of rendering these ties—of separating a man for ever from his wife and family, was too horrible to contemplate. He (Earl Grey), for one, would be no party to such a system. When the criminal's punishment had been to a certain extent gone through, it was proposed that his wife and family should be sent out with him to Australia. But, his noble Friend asked, what means had the Government of diffusing these convicts over Australia? What means had his noble Friend of doing this under the old system? Things would proceed in this respect very much the same as before. In the former case, when a man got a conditional pardon, facilities were given to him to proceed to any part of Australia he chose; and the same course would be adopted under the new system. His noble Friend had also said that there would be great objections on the part of the colonists to employ the convicts; and he had referred to what had taken place at Port Philip as a proof of this feeling, He (Earl Grey) was happy to say, however, that in consequence of the success of the first experiment, that feeling had undergone considerable change; and there was now so great a demand for their labour, that, provided care was taken to prepare the convicts by a proper system of discipline, the colonists would not object to receive them. On the contrary, he (Earl Grey) was persuaded that when the new system came into operation, there would in many colonies be a great desire to obtain the supply of labourers which it would provide. At the Cape of Good Hope, great anxiety had been expressed to have convicts employed in making a breakwater in that colony. These were the grounds upon which he deemed the system he proposed to be an advisable one. His noble Friend had said that they ought to postpone the operation of the new system till the prisons were ready to receive the convicts; but it was quite clear that we equally wanted the means of receiving them at Van Diemen's Land as we did here; and, as we must put them somewhere, we could provide for them at less expense here than in Van Diemen's Land. Even if we should return to the system of transportation, it would still be necessary to retain a large number of convicts at home. He was happy to
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say, that in the course of a few months, arrangements would be completed for receiving a considerable number at Portland Isle. In conclusion, he trusted that their Lordships would remember that he entirely concurred with his noble Friend opposite, that if the system was to be established permanently, it would require to be done by the authority of Parliament.
After a few words of explanation from Lord DENMAN, Earl GREY, and the Marquess of SALISBURY,
Bill read 2a.
House adjourned.