Sitting of 1 March 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Drainage of Land.
2° Consolidated Fund (£8,000,000).
Reported.—Poor Relief (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Dr. Bowring, from Bengal, for Inquiry into the Legacy Duties.—By Mr. Forster and other Hon. Members, from several places, for Reduction of Lighthouse Dues.—By Mr. H. Baillie, from Chairman and Committee of the Forres Agricultural Society, against the Proposed Measures relating to Rum.—By Mr. Heath-cote, from Lincoln, respecting the Remuneration of Tax
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Assessors and Collectors.—By Lord J. Manners, from Stalybridge, in Favour of the Ten Hours Bill in Factories.—By Mr. Sharman Crawford, from Hawick, suggesting Measures of Relief for Ireland and Scotland.—By Sir H. Douglas, from the Liverpool Shipowners' Society, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.—By Mr. P. Scrope, from Cork, for Alteration of the Poor Law (Ireland).—By Sir C. Coote and Captain Jones, from Mount Melick and Londonderry, against the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill—By Mr. Berkeley, and other Hon. Members, from several places, for Repeal or Alteration of the Poor Removal Act.—By Mr. Bateson, from Coleraine, in Favour of the Railways (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. S. O'Brien, from Galway, suggesting Measures for Relief to Ireland); and from Clare, respecting certain Charges respecting Captain Wynne.

LABOURERS ON PUBLIC WORKS (IRELAND).
MR. SMITH O'BRIENwished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, to certain information which had been received respecting the wages of labourers engaged on the public works in Sligo. It appeared that they were paid only 8d. a day; and, taking into account the present prices of provisions, this payment could not be said to be sufficient to supply a labourer and his family with an adequate quantity of food. He would also ask the right hon. Gentleman if he was aware of the proportion which the expenses of the staff of clerks and overseers bore to the expenses incurred in payment of labour?
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that in consequence of what had passed on a former day, he had communicated with the Board of Works in Dublin, and would state the result of his inquiries. It was true that the rate of pay for labourers in the county of Sligo was 8d. per day. The Board of Works had thought it desirable as much as possible to encourage the system of task-work: task-work was open to any labourer who chose to undertake it, and it was only where task-work could not be given that the system of day labour was adopted. The reason why the Board of Works had not thought it expedient to raise the price of day labour above 8d. was, that the ordinary rate of wages in Sligo was only 6d. per day. It was extremely desirable not to divert labour more than was absolutely necessary from the cultivation of the soil: where it was inevitable, of course the necessity of the case must be submitted to. Under these circumstances, the officers of the Board of Works considered it better to meet the case of a man who was not able to support his family on 8d. per day, by allowing more than one member of that family to be employed; this was deemed more advisable than to raise the wages of

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the man to above 8d. Though he (Mr. Labouchere) admitted that at the present price of provisions it was extremely difficult for a labourer to support himself and his family on 8d. a day; yet the case had been met by relaxing the rule at first laid down that only one in a family should be employed. That, as he had said, was looked upon as a mode of proceeding preferable to raising the price of labour. It must be borne in mind that the system of task-work was still open to all, and that by taking task-work more than 8d. per day could be earned. The other point referred to on a previous night was the expense of the staff as compared with the amount expended in labour. He had made inquiries, and he found that the apprehensions expressed in some quarters on this question were altogether unfounded. He had the details before him; but, perhaps, it would be enough for him to say that during a month the number of labourers employed in Sligo varied between 19,000 and 22,000. There was one pay-clerk to every 1,250 men, and an overseer to every 140 men, besides a check-clerk. The expense of pay-clerks, overseers, and check-clerks was 2,110 l. The total expenditure during the month had been 27,877 l.
MR. P. SCROPEwished to know what provision had been made for infirm paupers who were not able to be employed upon the roads? The only measure that was destined for their relief—the Bill which had recently passed—was one which would not come into operation before next autumn. There were only two modes of relieving the infirm destitute, one was by the workhouse; but he had a letter in his hand from a gentleman in Carlow, in which it was stated that this class had been refused admission into the workhouse, and the guardians refused to relieve them, and would not build temporary sheds for their accommodation. The other mode to which he referred was by relief committees, and they were interdicted from giving relief by the limited means at their command, the Government only supplying assistance in proportion to voluntary subscription. The question he wished to ask was, what certainty of relief the hon. Gentleman could hold out, under those circumstances, to the old and infirm women and children?
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he did not believe that the class referred to were likely to suffer from starvation. The present system of public works would be continued
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until the plan proposed to be substituted came into operation, and he did not apprehend that the inconvenience referred to by the hon. Gentleman would ever arise.
MR. HUMEwished to know whether a certain day had been fixed when the expenditure on the public works should cease.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that no notice had been given of a day; general directions had been given that the system of public works should be brought to a conclusion as rapidly as was consistent with due regard to safety and the relief of the destitution.

CULTIVATION OF THE SOIL (IRELAND).
SIR D. NORREYSbegged to ask the noble Lord at the head of the Government if the Government had taken any measures to ascertain whether the additional quantity of ground which would be required this year, in consequence of the failure of the potato crop, had been prepared for corn; and also whether, in the opinion of the Government, it would not be desirable to make an appeal to the Irish gentry and Irish landlords, in order to induce them to convert their land into tillage land.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The Government have been in constant communication with the Lord Lieutenant on this very important subject. But I regret that I cannot say that I am satisfied that the quantity of land prepared for tillage will supply the loss of the potatoes—supposing no potatoes to be grown this year. With respect to the suggestion of my hon. Friend, that proclamations should be issued by the Government, calling the attention of the Irish proprietors to the subject, and pointing out the necessity of their preparing more arable land, I cannot say that the Government are disposed to interfere by proclamation. I am sure that the Lord Lieutenant has called the attention of the proprietors to the importance of the subject, and the landlords can and ought to issue directions to their tenants; but the proprietors and farmers of Ireland ought to be as fully aware of the danger as the Government; and I hope that they will use their utmost exertions without our interference.

THE EDUCATION GRANT.
MR. C. HINDLEYwished to know the amount to be proposed in the Estimates for educational purposes; and whether the noble Lord intended to bring the Minutes of

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the Council of Education before the notice of the House, with a view of proposing a resolution upon them as to the application of the funds.
LORD J. RUSSELLreplied that the sum proposed would be the same as received the sanction of Parliament last year, 100,000 l. for Great Britain. With respect to the second question, he did not intend to propose any new resolution.

DISTRESS (SCOTLAND)—EXPLANATION.
MR. H. J. BAILLIEsaid, that he trusted he might obtain the indulgence of the House for a few moments with reference to a statement that had been made the other evening by the hon. Member for Fife, when he brought under the notice of the House the distress which existed on the west coast of Inverness-shire. It would be in the recollection of the House, that his hon. Friend read a report which had been published by the sheriff-substitute of Fort William, in which certain charges were made against some proprietors who were said to have neglected their tenants; amongst others, Macdonald, of Glengarry, of whom it was stated, in the report in question—
"That the proprietor of Knoydart has about 150 bolls of meal in store at Inveree; but the storehouse was shut up about Christmas, and since then a single pound cannot be obtained for love or money."
In answer to this, he held in his hand the letter of Glengarry, who said—
"In the beginning of November, I sent into Knoydart 21 l. in money, 100 bolls of oatmeal, and 100 bolls of Indian-corn meal, besides rice and biscuit; of these a portion was immediately distributed. On the 16th of November, the person in charge received instructions from my factor to supply food in all cases of extreme destitution: these instructions were confirmed by me; and last week the storekeeper said he had acted on them, and I desired him to continue to do so. Food is regularly distributed from my store to the families of men who are gone to the south of Scotland for work, and who, without this assistance, could not have gone from their homes."
Now, it was unnecessary to inform the House, that Macdonald of Glengarry was a gentleman of the highest honour; and it was therefore to be presumed that the sheriff-substitute of Fort William must have been misinformed in the particular instance to which he had alluded. And perhaps he might take that opportunity also to allude to the correspondence which had lately been published by Her Majesty's Government relative to the distress in the Highlands; he alluded to the last blue
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book which had been laid upon the Table of the House. It was unfortunate that this correspondence should have been published incomplete; he was aware that Her Majesty's Ministers had been much pressed for its production; but the result was, that charges were sometimes made against individuals, whilst the answers to those charges had not been received in time to be published in the present volume. The particular case to which he wished to allude at present, was that of the hon. Mrs. Stewart Mackenzie, of Seaforth. That distinguished lady had been accused by Sir Edward Coffin of having neglected her tenantry, and of having allowed two persons on her estate to die of starvation. By order of Mrs. Mackenzie, an investigation of the circumstances immediately took place; and it was proved beyond the possibility of doubt, that the two persons in question had died from natural causes—one of them being an old woman between eighty and ninety years of age; and the other, her daughter, who had been for some time in a consumption, of which several of her children had died; and the parties were living within a short distance of a meal store, where food was distributed to those who were in want. These facts had been communicated to Her Majesty's Government. The explanation, however, did not arrive in time to be published with the accusation; and this was the more unfortunate, for, from all he had heard, he believed no proprietor in the Highlands had used greater exertions, or made greater efforts, to relieve the distress which existed among the people than the lady to whom he alluded.
MR. E. ELLICE, JUN. was willing to give full credit to the statement that those steps had been taken which the hon. Gentleman had referred to; but still he believed that the report of Mr. Fraser was fully borne out in its essential statements. Since last week he had received a communication from Lord Cranstoun, who thought he was aggrieved by the observations he had made in that House, and wished him to contradict the statements he had then made on the authority of Mr. Fraser; but, considering, as he did, those statements to be correct, he had declined. Now, giving full credit to all these gentlemen for wishing to do their duty, he still thought, that, by reference to the blue book on the Table of the House, the statements made by Mr. Fraser would be found to be borne out by the documents which were there published.

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He believed, that, in many cases, the steps taken by proprietors to relieve the people on their estates, had been entrusted to agents who had not carried out the wishes of their employers; and that to this cause might be attributed much that was discrepant in the accounts which were received. While he was on his legs he thought it necessary to allude for an instant to what had fallen from him on another point. It might, perhaps, have appeared, from the statement he made the other night, that he had implied a doubt as to the efficiency of the measures taken by Government to meet the present calamity; but he should not be doing justice to the Government, if, after having learned the nature of the measures they had taken, he did not state that the Government had done all that was in their power to lessen the sudden calamity which had overtaken the county. But, however laudable the exertions of Government might have been, the success which had attended their efforts in the north was mainly due to the two gallant officers who had been despatched to that part of the kingdom with the means of relief.
SIR G. GREYsaid, the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baillie) had referred to the correspondence which had been published in the blue book, and expressed his regret that certain letters had not been published which were written in answer to charges brought against certain proprietors in Scotland. He might state that Sir E. Coffin had been instructed to confer with those proprietors as to the best mode of giving relief. He had done so in the case of Mrs. Mackenzie, from whom he received a prompt answer, showing the great desire which Mrs. Mackenzie had to take immediate steps to remedy any defect which might exist in her arrangements; and, among other matters, she had directed inquiry to be made into the cases of the two persons who were said to have died from starvation. The statement made by that lady, as well as those made by others similarly situated, would of course appear in the correspondence hereafter to be published.

EXPENDITURE IN FORMING RAILWAYS.
MR. W. J. COLLETTbegged to refer very shortly to a subject on which he had formerly addressed the House. He thought it right to state, that since the debate on the Bill of the noble Lord, he had made considerable inquiry into the subject of the formation of railways; and by way of example
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he would refer to the island of Anglesea, to show the amount of benefit which railway works created. The potato crop had failed entirely in that island, which, as everybody knew, was a very poor island. The Holyhead Railway employed in 1846 about 5,000 labourers, and of that number there were 2,500 Welchmen, 700 Irishmen, and 300 Englishmen, merely as gangers. The island of Anglesea had never been in so prosperous a condition as it was in 1846, and it had been produced entirely, he believed, by the expenditure of 100,000 l. by the railway company. The same remark would apply to the construction of other lines. If they looked at the railway from Maryborough through Thurles to Mallow, they would find that the expenditure of capital by that line had given employment to labourers within ten miles on each side of the railway. On the Dundalk line, and on the Carlow Railway, the same thing was to be seen. On the latter line there was not one Englishman employed, except, perhaps, an overseer. Now, the Secretary for Ireland had stated that the prosperity of Ireland for the following year in a great measure depended on the labour of the next six weeks in manuring the ground, in sowing, and other agricultural labour; but he did not say what would become of the labourers after those six weeks were over. He was prepared to state that the baronies of Ireland were willing to make presentments to the extent of 500,000 l. to give employment to railway labourers; and it was desirable, therefore, that Government should declare what were their intentions. There was to be a poor law, which would affect the decrepit and the infirm; but what provision was to be made for the rest of the population? He was sorry that the Government had not pressed forward the Holyhead Harbour Bill, which would have given employment to at least 5,000 Irishmen. What was now wanted was, to employ the able-bodied labourers of Ireland during the time that there was no employment for them in the usual labour of the fields; but, excepting the Drainage Act, nothing seemed to be doing for this purpose. Now, if 30,000 persons could be taken from the highways, and employed on railways, it would be very beneficial to the country. He considered that Her Majesty's Government had not taken the proper steps in reference to this question. They ought not to have trusted to mere anonymous authority; and he, for one, would

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have been ready to afford them all the information which he possessed.

POOR LAW (IRELAND).
MR. P. SCROPEthought he had been misunderstood by the Secretary for Ireland in some observations which he had made in a previous part of the evening. His question related, to the infirm poor, who were unable to work on railways, or at any work. As to the impossibility of collecting the rates in Ireland, he might state that the amount collected did not exceed 7½d. in the pound. As to the union of Castlebar, it had been conducted during the last four years at 4½d. only in the pound; and now they had refused to collect any more rates, though the rents had been fully collected.
MR. LABOUCHEREwould not be brought on the present occasion into a discussion of the whole subject of the poor law, especially considering the opportunities that they would have of discussing that subject afterwards. The present poor law in Ireland was inadequate for the relief of the destitute poor of that country; and the Government had admitted that, by the fact of their having declared their intention to introduce a new Bill, which was now before the House. He had risen, however, to guard himself against a misrepresentation of his hon. Friend. He had not, in the answer which he had given, said anything which could infer that a well-organized system of relief, by means of soup-kitchens and the like, would not have a strong tendency to check the extent of misery and destitution in Ireland. He did hope that the measures adopted by Parliament and the Government would relieve the misery which he acknowledged and lamented did exist in many parts of Ireland. But he must say, with reference to what had been said by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. P. Scrope), that, whilst he admitted that a poor law would be beneficial to Ireland, he never had been of opinion that, whatever poor law might be proposed for that country, it could be of itself adequate to meet the present condition of Ireland. He believed that no poor law could meet such a case; and he believed that it was an error to suppose that any poor law could be sufficient to meet and remedy the present state of Ireland.

THE EIGHT MILLION LOAN.
House in a Committee of Ways and Means,
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid: I am obliged to my hon. Friends for their kind consideration in postponing the Motions of which they had given notice, in order to enable me at once to make the statement I am about to do in Committee of Ways and Means; and in saying this, I should not be doing justice to my own feelings if I did not state how much I feel indebted to the kind indulgence of the whole House, when I made my financial statement last week. On that occasion I stated, that in order to meet the extraordinary demands which were made on the Treasury of the United Kingdom, in consequence of the existing distress in Ireland, I thought it advisable to have recourse to a loan of 8,000,000 l.; and it has given me great satisfaction to find that the House generally concurred in the prudence of the course I then ventured to recommend. I have now to announce that I have entered into an arrangement for a loan of 8,000,000 l.; and I am about to move resolutions confirmatory of the arrangement. It is quite true that on some former occasions it has been the practice to enter into loans before any announcement was made to the House. But that was by no means the uniform course; and, on several occasions, the Chancellor of the Exchequer has in his place in Parliament announced his intention of contracting a loan. It will be in the recollection of hon. Members that on the last occasion when a loan was contracted, a resolution was passed authorizing it, while, in point of fact, it was not contracted till three months after. In making the announcement of this loan, therefore, in the financial statement, I only followed a course for which there is ample precedent; and I thought it on the whole most respectful to the House, and most consistent with my duty, to take the course I did. At ten o'clock the next morning the announcement was made on the Stock Exchange; and I knew no possible disadvantage could arise from the statement I thought it but fair to make to the House on Monday last. The only question for me to consider was, what were the easiest terms on which I could raise the money. I consulted with every person I fairly could consult with on the subject, and I was informed almost unanimously that the easiest terms on which I could obtain the money would be to give a certain amount of 3 per cent Consols for every 100 l. That was the announcement my noble Friend the First

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Lord of the Treasury and I made on Thursday last to the gentlemen who did us the honour of waiting upon us—that Consols should be given, they paying so much money for every 100 l. stock. This morning several parties attended at the Treasury, when two offers were made. The offers, in point of fact, were identical, and were the result of a previous arrangement. The offer made was 89 l. 10 s. for 100 l. in stock. That, after the fullest consideration I could give to the matter, was the amount I could fairly expect to be given, and I determined to accept it as the best terms the present state of the money market could afford. I need only now state to the House what is the rate of interest; and this will be an answer to some observations which were made on a former occasion as to what I considered would be the probable charge. Of course, it was necessary for me to state what the rate would be; and 3½ per cent I thought the probable rate at which the loan would be raised. In point of fact, the interest which will fall on the country does not equal 3½ per cent. It is not easy to make a very precise calculation. On the occasion of the West India loan, a controversy was raised; for some time there was very considerable doubt what was the precise rate of interest paid for the West India loan. The loan contracted for this morning is for a much less sum than the West India loan; and although the price of Consols did happen to be precisely the same when the two loans were contracted, I naturally expected that when the loan was smaller in amount, I should succeed in obtaining it on more favourable terms. I believe that the interest payable on this loan will be, as near as may he, 3l. 7s. 6d. per cent. A calculation has been made in the Revenue-room of the Treasury that it would amount to 3l. 7s., deducting the interest due on the stock from last dividend day. The annual interest on the loan will be 268,156 l. 8s. 6d., and adding to that the charge of management payable to the Bank, making it 270,800 l., the interest will be within a small fraction of 3l. 7s. 6d. per cent. That may fairly be taken as the rate at which the loan has been raised. My right hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth will, therefore, observe that this is 2s. 6d. less than 3½ per cent. I have in some particulars departed from the previous practice of contracting loans; not being in immediate want of money, I have allowed no discount, but I have adopted
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the usual practice of giving stock, if required, for all instalments except the first, as they are paid. In some respects, this facilitated the contraction of the loan, without any loss whatever to the Government in point of money. I have nothing to add but to place these resolutions in your hands. The right hon. Gentleman read the following resolutions:—
"1. That towards raising the supply granted to Her Majesty, the sum of 8,000,000 l. be raised by Annuities.
"2. That every contributor to the said sum of 8,000,000 l. shall, for every sum of 89 l. 10 s. contributed and paid, be entitled to the principal sum of 100 l. in Annuities, after the rate of 3l. per centum, to commence from the 5th day of January, 1847, and to be added to and made one joint stock with the existing Three per centum Consolidated Annuities, and be payable and transferable at the Bank of England at the same time and in the same manner, and subject to the like redemption, as the said Annuities.
"That the several Annuities shall be charged on and paid out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
"That every contributor shall, on the 5th day of March, 1847, make a deposit of 12 l. per centum, in such sum as he or she shall choose to subscribe towards raising the said sum of 8,000,000 l., with the chief cashier or cashiers of the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, as a security for making the future payments on or before the days or times hereinafter mentioned; that is to say—

"Payment of 12

per cent on or before Apr. 9 next.

"Payment of 12

per cent on or before 7th of May.

"Payment of 12

per cent on or before 11th June.

"Payment of 12

per cent on or before 9th of July.

"Payment of 12

per cent on or before 6th August.

"Payment of 12

per cent on or before 3d Septem.

"Payment of 16

per cent on or before 15th Oct.

100

"That all the moneys so to be received by the said cashier or cashiers of the said Governor and Company of the Bank of England shall be paid in to the account of the receipt of Her Majesty's Exchequer at the Bank of England, in aid of the moneys belonging to the Consolidated Fund, and shall be applied from time to time for any of the purposes for which money might be advanced or granted from the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain and Ireland, under the Act of the 9th and 10th Victoria, cap. 107, or for such services as may be voted by this House, or as may be authorized to be paid thereout by any Act passed or that may be passed in the present Session of Parliament."
MR. HUMEIn reply to a question from MR. HUME,
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the whole interest would not be paid till July. Supposing any person paid up the whole of his instalments before the 10th of July, he would be entitled to receive the half-year's dividend due in January, and the half-year's due in October. If the whole instalments were not

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paid up till after July, he would not be entitled to any dividend till January.
MR. HUME: Then we were to pay interest from the 5th of January; so that this was an addition to the charge. He was surprised that the old mode of borrowing such sums should have been departed from on this occasion, and could not but express his regret at such departure. Upon a former occasion, he had been prepared to show, when the 15,000,000 l. loan was contracted for, that the country sustained a loss of 2,600,000 l., yet he could get no one to support him. In this case, we were to give 8,938,947 l. for 8,000,000 l., and to pay interest upon the former sum; and, though the money was not to be all had till July, we were to pay interest from January. He did not doubt that the stock would be at 3 or 4 per cent premium tomorrow. A loan of 8,000,000 l. was a trifle for our money market, and the giving such terms was a mistake. He thought it would have been better to have made it an open loan. He had been informed that this morning, in the City, the loan had been at a premium of 1⅝ per cent. If the Government had advertised for 8,000,000 l., and had left the terms open, they would have got the money at a lower rate. It was impossible, indeed, for any one to say what another operation might have produced; only, upon principle, he made these observations after communication with persons better informed upon the subject than he was; and he deeply regretted that the loan had been contracted for at so high a figure.
MR. W. WILLIAMScould not but express his sorrow that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not pursued the beaten track which had been followed by all preceding Chancellors of the Exchequer for the last forty years, with the exception of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge. By this course, they had added to the national debt of the country 175,000,000 l. By the mode of contracting for the loan adopted by the right hon. Gentleman, he had thrown away 2 per cent. He ought to have got 1l. sterling for 1l. stock. If the right hon. Gentleman had issued 4,000,000 l. of Exchequer-bills, he might have increased their interest a halfpenny a day without exceeding the interest of 3 per cent, and they would still have borne a considerable premium. If he had issued 4,000,000 l. Exchequer-bills, he would have had to borrow only a moderate sum besides, if
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the calculations of the right hon. Gentleman as to the prosperity of our finances were well founded. He contended that we ought not to increase the principal of the national debt in time of peace. He regretted extremely that the right hon. Gentleman had not adopted a course which would have been creditable to himself and advantageous to the country.
Upon the Resolution being put from the Chair,
MR. HUMEasked why the money had not been borrowed at par? When the resolutions were reported, he should consider it his duty to put on record a dissent to the manner in which the loan had been effected.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERstated, that he had followed the course pursued by Chancellors of the Exchequer for many years past; and the mode which had been adopted for the purpose of obtaining the loan, was that which to Her Majesty's Government appeared the most advantageous. He had to state, that the two parties to whom he had referred as having made the offers for the loan, were Messrs. Rothschild and Messrs. Baring.
House resumed. Resolution agreed to.

POOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I am desirous of stating in a general manner what is proposed as some substantial amendment in the permanent poor law of Ireland, not for the purpose of now bringing the subject under discussion, but merely that the House may have the opportunity of knowing as early as possible the tendency of these Amendments. I propose afterwards that the House go into Committee on Monday next for the purpose of discussing the Amendments of the Bill. With respect to the first clause, it has been objected that although the guardians are obliged to relieve persons out of the workhouse when the workhouse is full, or when from fever it is impossible relief can be given in the workhouse, they are not obliged to give relief unless the workhouse be full; yet I consider, by carrying out the former Act, the necessary relief can be given. Certainly this case might arise: the guardians might refuse to give relief to a number sufficient to fill the workhouse, the workhouse being able to hold 400; but, that number not being in it, the guardians might say the workhouse was not full, and give no further relief. But in order to prevent such

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an abuse, we propose, by additional words, that the guardians be required to relieve other persons than those in the workhouse of the union, when there is room in such workhouse. With regard to the second clause, the words proposed to be introduced are in order to enable the guardians to meet the exigencies which may arise. In a subsequent clause—Clause 9—we propose to alter the liability of the out-door relief being charged on the union; the change we propose to make is to place the charge up to a certain amount upon the electoral district. We propose to place them on the electoral districts, the same as those detained in the workhouse; but if the charge shall exceed 2s. 6d. in the pound in the year, then, in that case, it shall be charged on the union at large. We likewise propose to change the number of ex-officio guardians. In Ireland the guardians are elected from the whole number of magistrates, forming about a fourth part of the whole body eligible for guardians; now, what we propose as an Amendment is, that they may elect a number of magistrates equal to the number of eligible guardians; i.e., that one-half of the whole body, but not exceeding one-half, may be magistrates. We also propose to introduce a clause similar to that in the temporary measure, giving power to the Poor Law Commissioners to remove boards of guardians, and appoint paid guardians. These, then, are the general Amendments which we propose in the Bill now before the House, except with the addition of those alterations which may be necessary to make the Bill clear. There is another point on which we had intended to make some change; and although it has been considered a good deal, I am not able just at present to state what change may be proposed. The House is aware that with regard to poor relief in England, relief is not given to a person having sufficient means for his own support, and that such person has no claim to relief; but, however, it frequently happens that a person in the occupation of a cottage does go into the workhouse during the winter time, and is allowed to return to his cottage again when the winter is over, and there is a greater demand for labour; and it has been proposed as regards Ireland, by an hon. Member, that no relief should be given to any person possessing above half an acre of land. Now, I find in this respect that we are between two cases; if we say that a person should be required not to possess
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any land whatever before he seeks relief, then there is the danger that the poor person who might retain his cottage would be deprived of the occupation; if, on the other hand, we say relief is to be given to people occupying—suppose half an acre or more—there is the danger that we may be doing an injury, by perpetuating some of the worst holdings in Ireland. Between these two opposite dangers, the Government wish to take some further time for consideration; and though I do not think it right that people occupying land should receive relief, yet there might be some calculation made by which people occupying small portions of land might for a time receive relief. I think that the general rule which applies to England might, to a certain extent, be beneficially applied to Ireland; but on this, however, I am sure that we shall all agree, that those who have other means of subsistence should not be entitled to poor-law relief. This is the general extent of the Amendments; and I shall propose that the House do go into Committee pro formâ with this Bill, and proceed with the other Bill—the Landed Property (Ireland) Bill—before this Bill, and with both as quickly as possible.
MR. SHAWconsidered that the understanding was, that they should not have any debate that night on the general subject of the Irish poor law, and he did not even mean to discuss or give his opinion upon the Amendments just announced by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell); his (Mr. Shaw's) only desire was to be sure that he understood them. As he understood the noble Lord, the Amendment on the first clause was, so far to extend the authority of the Commissioners as that their power of ordering relief in food to the destitute, in case of the workhouse being full, should not be evaded by the guardians saying they would prevent its being full, by refusing destitute persons who ought to be admitted. But he (Mr. Shaw) did not conceive that the noble Lord meant to give an absolute right to relief to the able-bodied even in the workhouse, as that would seem necessarily to entail the law of settlement, and much of the English poor-law machinery, which was not applicable to Ireland. The noble Lord's second Amendment, as he (Mr. Shaw) understood, was to facilitate the power of giving increased accommodation for in-door relief, by means of temporary buildings. The third Amendment, relating to the 9th clause, was a recognition by the noble Lord of the principle of

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rating the smaller district, the electoral division, in preference to the union at large; but in case of the rate reaching a maximum of 2s. 6d. in any one electoral district, then that the surplus should be put upon the union; and, fourthly, the noble Lord seemed ready to acknowledge the propriety of not allowing relief to any person who held land above a very small quantity, but that the Government had not yet determined what the exact limit should be, whether half an acre or less. He believed those were the alterations intended by the noble Lord, and that was all that he (Mr. Shaw) required to know at that stage of the proceedings.
SIR R. PEELasked, whether, supposing the workhouse to be full, it was intended during the period it remained full, to give such right of relief to the destitute poor in the union as existed in England, that was to say, out-door relief?
LORD J. RUSSELL, in reply to the first question of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Shaw), said, the right hon. Gentleman would see that by the first clause the guardians were required to relieve the permanently disabled poor. By the third clause, as it stood, on an order from the Poor Law Commissioners, the guardians were required to make provision for the destitute poor for a certain time out of the workhouse, the workhouse being full. But, as he had just said, this case might arise, that the guardians might refuse to fill the workhouse, although there were persons starving in the union, in order to escape the obligation to relieve the destitute poor out of the workhouse. The Government had, therefore, thought it right to propose an Amendment, that the guardians should relieve destitute persons out of the workhouse, the workhouse not being full. With respect to the question of the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), the right would not be exactly the same as in England. There was this difference in England, that all the relief must be given in food; and there was this other difference, that in many poor-law unions, by order of the Poor Law Commissioners, relief was at present given on the ground that one of the children, or one person in the family, was sick. The Government did not propose anything of that kind in the present measure. It would be different from the poor law in England in that respect. At the same time, there would be the right of relief out of the workhouse, and, the workhouse being full, the Poor Law Commissioners would issue
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an order under which poor persons would be relieved. Of course, they would include in the term "workhouse" any building the guardians might take for the temporary accommodation of the paupers of the union.
MR. BELLEWsaid, the limit at which the charge on the union was proposed to begin, had better have been 3s. or 4s., than 2s. 6d. The determination of the Government with regard to ex-officio guardians, although there was much to be said on both sides, would, on the whole, he thought, not be favourably received in Ireland, considering the great responsibility it threw on the landlords.
MR. J. O'CONNELLwas very sorry the noble Lord had given up the uniform mode of rating. With regard to ex-officio guardians, he greatly feared that that provision also would be found to work very badly, and to be much complained of. On one point it certainly would be complained of—he meant with respect to the religion and the religious teaching of paupers in the workhouse. Occasions had occurred in Ireland in which the proceedings of the elective guardians had been swamped, and considerable interference with the religious teaching of the children taken place by the ex-officio guardians coming down to the board and turning the scale. If the Government meant to persist in the present provision with respect to ex-officio guardians, he trusted they would give some means in other provisions of the Bill for preventing the teaching of the children in the workhouses being interfered with.
SIR D. NORREYSthought the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had not acted fairly towards the Irish Members, in bringing forward so important an Amendment as that which provided that the charge up to a certain point for maintaining the poor should be levied on particular districts, which perhaps had nothing to do with any such expense. That question should not have been decided by the noble Lord in private. The noble Lord might say the question was not decided; but it had been virtually settled, and it was not at all likely that the noble Lord would change his opinion and acknowledge that he was in the wrong. It was too great a question for a Minister to decide in his closet. Did the noble Lord not recollect that he (Sir D. Norreys) presented a petition the other week setting forth that in some electoral districts the charge for maintaining the poor was as high as 2s. in the pound, while

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in others it did not exceed 2½d., and yet the noble Lord seemed to think that in proposing his Amendment he was protecting the electoral districts? The noble Lord's conduct on this and other occasions had shaken his (Sir D. Norreys') confidence in him. He had exhibited the same vacillation in regard to the Factory Bill, and other measures of importance. In fact, the noble Lord had not taken that firm stand on principle which he should expect in a political leader. He hoped to see the noble Lord take a stand becoming his position as the head of a Government and the head of a party, and not allow himself to be swayed and influenced by the suggestions of interested parties.
MR. MORGAN J. O'CONNELLsaid, if the hon. Member wished for an opportunity for a discussion on the question, he would take care that the hon. Member should have that opportunity. He would take care, also, that the House should have an opportunity, not only of discussing whether there should be out-door relief given in the manner proposed, but also whether the rate should be uniform throughout the whole of each district. The noble Lord might tinker and patch up this part of the law as much as he pleased; but he would find, before five years had passed over, that he had aggravated, by it, the evils he meant to remedy. An uniform rate was the only one which combined simplicity with justice.
MR. SMITH O'BRIENcould not let the opportunity pass without entering his protest against the change made by the noble Lord with reference to the constitution of the boards of guardians. When the right hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) was in office, he proposed that one-third instead of one-fourth should be ex-officio guardians, though he was forced to give up that proposition; but the noble Lord went much further. He warned the noble Lord that his measure would in this respect create great discontent in Ireland. If the magistrates were fit to administer the affairs of the poor, they would be elected by the ratepayers; if they were not fit, he thought it was scarcely questionable whether they should sit on the board or not. The noble Lord's alteration would give a great accession of aristocratic influence to the constitution of the boards. He was extremely sorry that the noble Lord had overlooked the notice of a proposition which he had put on the Paper, and which he thought would have removed many of the objections to
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the adoption of electoral divisions for rating. He thought the best thing would be to have a new arrangement of electoral divisions.
MR. P. SCROPEsaid, there was one alteration which he thought of very material importance, viz., that there should be a right of relief in some shape or other, in the workhouse or out of it; so that in Ireland, as in England, no one should be allowed to starve. The concessions which had been made by the Government to the landlords, he thought, were very large. The second clause did give power to the Poor Law Commissioners to order out-door relief to the able-bodied poor; but the alteration now made was very material, for by it they only had power to order relief to be given out of doors where the workhouse was full, or so dangerous, from contagious fever, that persons could not enter it. The next concession was to the landlords, in the clause respecting the constitution of the boards of guardians. That was a great alteration, and he doubted whether the poor would not suffer from it. The third concession was the alteration with respect to the electoral divisions. The fourth concession was, that small farmers should not be allowed any claim to relief until they gave up their property. The noble Lord was not determined whether half an acre should be the lowest amount of land to be held along with a right to relief, or not. This was a regulation which had no parallel either in the law of Scotland or of England. In Scotland, it often occurred that the farmer of a small farm was a fit subject for relief; for instance, from his own or his family's sickness. When a farmer in Ireland occupied three or four acres, as from 300,000 to 400,000 of the population in that country did, and was unable to obtain work, or became an object of relief from the sickness of himself or his family, was he to part with his occupation before he was relieved? He warned the noble Lord that such an enactment would lead to very great sensation among that class of persons in Ireland; and there was already a very strong feeling among that class lest they should not obtain the right to permanent relief under the new poor law. He had not observed that the noble Lord had made any alteration in the clause confining the right of out-door relief to the permanently disabled. They constituted but a very small part of the destitute poor. On referring to the lists of paupers relieved in England, he found

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that the Poor Law Commissioners divided them into nine different classes, who were all relieved out of doors in England. Yet this class of disabled was the only one that was to be relieved out of doors in Ireland. He had really thought that the time was come when the poor laws of England and Ireland were to be assimilated. If the sick poor were not to have out of door relief, to a very large portion of the poor of Ireland the Act would be wholly inadequate. He did hope that this clause would be taken into consideration by the Government, and that they would see that the sick poor, most of all, required relief at their own homes; for, unless the principal enactments of the measure were assimilated to those of the poor law of England, there would be no security for the adequate relief of the poor, or for the prevention of that emigration which the poor were forced to resort to, in order to obtain from our more liberal institutions that which the law denied in their own country. He wished to know whether this measure was to be accompanied by another for the suppression of mendicancy in Ireland. On the 1st of December, 1837, the noble Lord based the proposition he then made for a poor law on the advantage which it would give in suppressing mendicancy in Ireland. Mendicancy and vagrancy, however, had not been put down; and he trusted, therefore, that the noble Lord would see the absolute necessity of reintroducing the clauses on this subject which at that time passed through the House of Commons, but were lost in the Lords. Unless an end were put to vagrancy, the workhouse relief would not be a sufficient remedy.
MR. LEFROYwished to know how far the workhouse test was to be extended, by providing additional buildings before relief was to be given out of doors? Upon other points he thought it would be best to postpone discussion; but he believed that the more the question of union rating was discussed, the more fair it would appear that electoral rating should be adhered to; and with regard to the denial of relief to the occupiers of land, he agreed with the noble Lord that there was no reason why a person in the occupation of several acres of land should have relief. These were points, however, which could be better discussed on a future occasion.
MR. D. CALLAGHANhad hoped that the noble Lord's observations would have passed sub silentio; but as there had been a discussion, and as there were cases in
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which Members who were present, and did not speak, had their views misconstrued, he wished to say a few words. He had read many petitions presented to the House during the present Session, and the great majority were not in favour of the electoral district system, but of a rating more extensive even than the union. They advocated one uniform rating throughout the country. He was not a guardian himself, but he had heard that almost all the squabbles were about electoral rates; and he was of opinion that the more extended the surface over which the rate was collected, the better it would be for the comfort of the people. He had heard, with great regret, the proposed changes in the number of ex-officio guardians, which would be unpalatable in Ireland. In his own union he knew of one ex-officio guardian, who frequently attended, yet who did not pay a penny of the rate, or own one pennyworth of property in the county.
MR. SHAWbegged to ask the noble Lord, did he intend to introduce a Vagrancy Act for Ireland, to accompany the New Poor Law Bill?
LORD J. RUSSELLreplied that there should be a Vagrancy Bill for Ireland introduced; but as to the time for introducing it, he had not yet made up his mind.
Bill went through Committee pro formâ.

LANDED PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLstated that as the Amendments which he proposed to introduce into this Bill were of a comparatively trivial nature, he did not think that it was necessary then to commit it, but he should at once propose that the Committee on it be deferred till Monday next.
MR. SMITH O'BRIENhoped, that the noble Lord would without delay make some progress with the other Bills. Ireland was in a most disastrous condition, and they were going on spending large sums of money; but nothing was done for the permanent improvement of the country. He went as far as almost any one for the adoption of out-door relief, and therefore he was glad that it had been adopted in the Bill just before the House. It was now the sixth week of the Session, and little or nothing had been done; they were still going on expending large sums of money on useless works, instead of looking to the construction of permanently beneficial works, such as those involved in the proposal of the noble Lord the Member for Lynn. What was the nature of this Bill?

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It gave the power to spend 1,500,000 l. in drainage, and it would afford employment to the people now subsidised by the Government for two months; and this was all that was proposed to be done, to effect the great object of taking the people off from the construction of useless roads to permanent beneficial employment. On a former night the hon. Member for Montrose made a suggestion as to the employment of the people, which was well worthy of the attention of the Government. He wished to know when the Waste Lands Bills would be brought forward. He regretted that nothing had been done as to a measure for tenant compensation.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLhardly knew whether it was necessary to give any further answer to the observations of the hon. Member than those which he had already given. With respect to the present Bill, he thought that it would be better to go through it clause by clause, which proceeded in conformity with the views of the most enlightened friends of Ireland, as regarded the adoption of internal improvements. It appeared to him that they took the most practical course in proceeding with these two measures, which were of the greatest possible importance, as nearly as possible together, so that they might be sent up to the other House together. The hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the adoption of the proposed poor law was not calculated to make the country rich; now he (Lord J. Russell) believed that a good poor law in Ireland would tend to do so. He received the other day a letter from a landed proprietor in Ireland, who resided on his estate, in which he was assured that the farmers employed labour more readily and more extensively when they found that the labourers were likely to become chargeable on the rates. The hon. Gentleman expressed his regret that large sums of money had been expended in works of a particular character; now he (Lord John Russell) thought that the hon. Gentleman did not attach sufficient value to the recent expenditure of large sums of money in the present crisis in Ireland, so as to enable the people to earn sufficient to enable them to obtain the means of subsistence. He conceived that it was not of so much importance as to whether the works on which the people were employed were productive or not; but that there should be such an outlay that persons at remote parts of the country, either by employment on railways or any other works,
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might be enabled to get sufficient to support them. He hoped that many of the roads which had already been constructed, or were now in the course of construction, would, prove to be useful works; but, under any circumstances, it was of the greatest importance that there should be advances of money for the employment of labour at a time when the population was in such a state of destitution. He could assure the hon. Gentleman that the measure relating to waste lands should be introduced very shortly. He had spoken a few days ago to the Lord Chancellor on the subject of the waste lands, and he had found that it was necessary to consult the Lord Chancellor of Ireland on the subject, as it was desirable to see whether the law was the same on the subject in England and Ireland. Under these circumstances he would ask, whether it would not be better to submit to a little delay, so as to introduce the measure in as perfect a form as possible? The hon. Gentleman must be aware that Bills had passed that House involving public improvements, which, in consequence of such informalities or technical mistakes, had not become operative; it was therefore most desirable, in a measure like that which he had alluded to, to avoid anything of the kind. He could only repeat that there was every desire on the part of the Government to bring forward this measure with as little delay as possible; and he trusted that the hon. Gentleman and the House would show some forbearancce, considering the difficulties of the subject with which they had to deal.
MR. HUMEfelt bound to express his dissent from the speech of the noble Lord. The noble Lord seemed to think that the only thing was to give money to the people so as to enable them to provide themselves with food; but he contended that the money so given should be expended in such a way as to provide for the permanent welfare of the people. As it was, every shilling that had hitherto been expended, tended to withdraw she people from that employment which was of the most consequence to them, namely, the cultivation of the soil. He conceived that the Government might bring in a measure so to relieve the landed proprietors, by affording facilities for the sale of land, as to enable them to afford employment to the people. He could tell the noble Lord that very recently some land had been sold in the neighbourhood of Carrick, which was in the midst of the most distressed districts, for twenty-seven

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years' purchase; and this had been bought by persons of capital in that vicinity. No permanent improvement could take place if the greatest care was not taken as to the character of the works on which the people were employed. He held in his hand an extract which he had taken from a Sligo paper, which showed that the system of public works adopted had tended to take all those engaged in labour from useful and productive employment; and this had been attended with the most scandalous expenditure. As for the delay in the introduction of the measure relating to waste lands, he thought means might readily be adopted to facilitate the sale of lands now in Chancery. It was stated in the appendix to Lord Devon's report, that notwithstanding the severest pressure on the landowner, he could not sell any portion of his land in consequence of its being involved in some Chancery suit, and that this had been productive of the greatest mischief. Why not adopt the same principle with regard to these lands as was acted upon where land was taken for railroads? When land in Chancery was wanted for a railroad, the value of it was duly estimated, and the money was paid into the Court of Chancery, and the dispute or suit went on with respect to the money instead of the land. Why was not this principle acted upon with regard to land in Ireland? He entreated the noble Lord at once to bring in the Waste Lands Bill.
LORD G. BENTINCKcould not take so sanguine a view as his noble Friend had done of the improvements which had been made in the roads in Ireland under the Public Works Act. He had received on Saturday a report of a meeting, from which it appeared that the view taken by his noble Friend was not that held by persons the best able to form an opinion on the subject. The paper he alluded to contained a report of a speech made by Mr. Bianconi, than whom no one was a better judge of the alleged improvements in the roads in Ireland. That gentleman said—
"If the English Parliament had known anything of the country, it would not have given millions to spend in such a way as to render impassable the communications throughout the country, instead of expending the money in productive employment. He began to apprehend that England was afraid of the prosperity of Ireland, which might be followed by her independence. In consequence of the state of the roads, he had been obliged to abandon several cars between different places, and which required 100 horses, as well as afforded employment to several men. Instead
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of the Parliament giving money for the construction of railroads or other productive labour, it had given money to spoil roads which were hitherto good."
Under these circumstances, he did not think that the making of these roads could be considered as tending so much to the improvement of the country.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLdid not say that he was sanguine as to the advantages of these public works, but he stated that the chief object in view was the employment of the people.
SIR J. GRAHAMapprehended, from a passage in the speech of the noble Lord, that he entertained the opinion that it was comparatively immaterial as to whether the capital given for public works in Ireland was expended on productive or unproductive works; he (Sir James Graham) believed that it was of the greatest importance for national objects that every farthing now expended, should be spent in such a manner as to promote the future welfare of the country. He rose, however, chiefly for the purpose of offering one suggestion. It would be in the highest degree unjust, considering the great pressure on the Government in the difficulties which had arisen in Ireland, to complain, in the slightest degree, of delay in bringing forward measures to meet those difficulties. With reference to the permanent measures for the improvement of Ireland, he thought that it would be most important, for the future relief of that country, that the measures contemplated for facilitating the reclamation of waste lands should contain provisions to relieve the owners from those impediments which burdened the sale of their lands. The importance of these measures could not be overstated. The rights of creditors and the rights of heirs should be carefully considered; and it should be provided that in giving the promised relief, no great principle of law should be violated. He, therefore, rejoiced that the Lord Chancellor of England and the Lord Chancellor of Ireland should have had their earnest attention directed to the Bill; but, judging from his experience of the last Session, he thought the House had reason to apprehend that if the matter were left exclusively in the hands of lawyers, no such relief as the urgency of the case required would be obtained. In the last Session, that House had sent up to the other House of Parliament, by an almost unanimous vote, a clause in the Bill for the drainage

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of lands in Ireland with regard to advances to be made to estates—a clause enabling tenants for life to borrow money for the purposes of drainage, due precaution being taken that the inheritance should not be damaged by such a loan, and provision being made that a competent tribunal should certify that the outlay would be productive, and the improvement without injury to the fee-simple value. Precaution was also taken that the debts should be a first charge on the land. That clause was introduced by the Government, and passed without meeting any great opposition from landed proprietors. But what happened to it in the other House? Why, the law Lords—Lord Cottenham, Lord Campbell, Lord Langdale, and Lord Lyndhurst, the then Lord Chancellor—without distinction of party, all made common cause, and applied the strict technicalities of the law of England to the measure. Those law Lords conjoined, and forced upon the other House the rejection of that clause of the Bill, and it came down again to the House of Commons mutilated. He must say that they were forced to yield, although the Bill was returned to them so altered, so mutilated, and, in his opinion, greatly impaired. Yet although he thus plainly expressed his opinion with regard to that measure, he should repeat, that he rejoiced to hear that the Lord Chancellors of England and Ireland were giving their attention to the Bill about to be brought before Parliament. He should be sorry that any of the strict rules of equity should be discarded in the matter. The rights of creditors should be preserved intact, and the rights of heirs should not be overlooked, and all contingent rights in posse, looking further forward, ought to be, as far as possible, maintained. But he was quite satisfied that no remedy would be speedily given at all adequate to the pressure of the prevailing circumstances; and he therefore hoped the Government would mature their measures as soon as possible, and bring forward speedily such as, on the one hand, the law authorities might be willing to assent to, and such as, on the other, should be of sufficient efficacy to meet the real difficulties and emergencies of Ireland. The suggestion he had to make to the noble Lord was, that whilst they were in that House discussing the measures of poor laws and the Bills for aiding the improvement of estates, and enabling tenants for life to incur debt for that purpose, the other House of Parliament might, in his
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opinion, be occupied in forwarding those measures to which it was of the greatest importance the great law authorities should give their attention, and on which their opinions would be most required. He hoped that in ten or twelve days the noble Lord would be enabled, as he had expressed his hope, to bring forward the measure of which he had spoken, and the other House of Parliament might then be occupied in considering details to which he (Sir J. Graham) attributed the utmost importance, and which ought not to be longer delayed. He begged to offer the suggestion merely to the noble Lord. He would not wish to embarrass, or unduly to hurry the Government, because he thought they had shown the greatest desire to bring forward measures to meet the present difficulties, and it would be most unfair to press upon them so as in any manner to embarrass them.
MR. LABOUCHEREparticipated in the regret expressed by the right hon. Baronet at the delay which had taken place in the bringing forward measures of great importance. But it would be impossible for the Government to allow the important measures to which he had referred to be brought before either House of Parliament until the details had been duly prepared. He trusted, however, that no long time would now elapse before the other House of Parliament would be occupied in considering measures for the purpose of facilitating the sale of estates in Ireland. The Lord Chancellor of Ireland had sent over his views upon the subject. It had since undergone consideration by the Lord Chancellor of England, and it was then in such a state of forwardness as that it would soon occupy the attention of the other House. But there was one observation of the right hon. Baronet's to which he would advert. The right hon. Baronet seemed to have imagined that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had stated that it was a matter of indifference to him whether the money given to employ the Irish labourers was spent upon productive or unproductive works. [Sir J. GRAHAM: Of comparative indifference.] He accepted the distinction, but the noble Lord had never said any such thing. It was obvious that were a choice to be given between non-productive and reproductive works, the latter should be preferred when a certain sum of money was to be spent. What his noble Friend had said was, that it should be always borne in mind, in considering that question, that the primary point was, in the present condition

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of Ireland, to save human life and to diminish human suffering as much as possible. So far as that object could be combined with reproductive employment, it would be desirable; but they should not lose sight of the pressing necessity. It was very easily said that they should employ their money only in reproductive works; but he felt sure the right hon. Baronet would not give his assent to the proposition relative to productive employment, which had been so repeatedly put forward, namely, that the Government should undertake the ordinary cultivation of the soil. They should recollect that the primary object was to furnish employment throughout the country; and it would not do to employ the money in certain places only, where they would necessarily collect together the whole of the population of the surrounding district. The right hon. Baronet had himself spoken the other night against the employment of the Irish population in the making of railroads, for the very reason that the people would be thereby congregated together at particular spots. They should try to bring employment home to every Irishman; but he thought that it would be ruinous to employ money in the cultivation of the soil. Were they to do so, the whole private employment in the country would cease. All the cultivation of the soil would cease except that done by the Government; and great and Herculean as was the task already undertaken by the Government, it would be as nothing compared to that which would then be laid on them. The most sweeping censures had been cast upon them, because they had not followed a different course from that which they had adopted in furnishing means of subsistence to the poor of Ireland, and because they had preferred giving that employment upon what were called public works, rather than having recourse to a system of what might have been called reproductive works. And he could not help regretting that what seemed to be a sort of censure upon them, should have fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorchester, because he thought that anything like censure coming from a Gentleman whose opinion was of so much weight and importance in the House, should be well considered, as it could not fail to have much influence.
SIR D. NORREYSthought, that if the noble Lord wished really to effect any good in Ireland by his measures, he should carry them with a determined hand. He should
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not be stayed by many of the heretofore received restrictions of the law. For instance, no man should be allowed to deny to the country the uses and advantages to the country at large of the mineral wealth which his estate might (uselessly to himself) possess. The noble Lord should not, in the present state and condition of Ireland, allow the old ideas of the sacredness of property to prevent the undertaking of any measures that promised to be generally beneficial to the country. And he thought there ought to be some tribunal erected in Ireland which should carry such measures into effect, without rendering an appeal to that House necessary.
MR. BAILLIEwas very happy to hear that it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to bring into the other House of Parliament the Bill for facilitating the sale of incumbered estates in Ireland; and he hoped that some such law would also be introduced for Scotland, where there were many estates at present deeply incumbered, which the proprietors could not dispose of.
MR. J. O'CONNELLwould ask, with regard to the defects of the Drainage Act passed last year, what could be expected from a measure introduced at the very close of the Session? As to the censure passed upon the road work, he asserted that by the employment given in the improvement of the roads, a great amount of human life had been saved; whilst it appeared from returns formerly made, that improvements of roads in Ireland, by opening up the country and facilitating the means of internal communication, had so increased the returns of the Excise, as to make abundant repayment of the original expenditure. But in the present distressed condition of the Irish people, there was no possibility of giving them employment in any sort of reproductive work in many districts. He could speak from his own experience of a district near Dublin. He meant that of Kingstown and Monsktown, where there were no reproductive works upon which they could be employed; and the committee of which he was a member had no choice but to employ them on the roads. At the same time he joined in saying, that a fair measure for the reclamation of waste lands ought to be hurried forward. As to the complaint of some hon. Members, that the time of the House was entirely taken up by Irish affairs, he thought it was important that the House

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should for a time give up its entire attention to Irish matters. It would be for the benefit, not of Ireland merely, but of the empire at large, for the question before them was a most difficult problem to solve.
MR. SHAWsaid, that as regarded the Labour-rate Act, there was no doubt that in many parts of Ireland it had worked very ill, but still in some parts very useful works had been done under it; and, at all events, the first object of that Act was, in a moment of unexampled emergency, to give wages, so that the people might not perish from want. The next, that some work, at least, should be done for these wages; but there was one consideration that the House seemed to overlook, that, since the passing of the Temporary Relief Act, the Labour-rate Act was superadded, and that thenceforward the question would not be between productive and reproductive works, but between productive works and no work at all, for the Temporary Relief Act was merely to give the people food, and not work. While he, therefore, was ready to make every allowance for the Government, considering the great pressure that was upon them, still he would urge upon them the absolute necessity of their not losing a moment in the progress of that Bill then before the House, and the introduction of all others that they contemplated of a permanent nature for stimulating the industry and developing the resources of the country, recollecting always the immense unproductive outlay that would be going on until these measures came into operation.
MR. P. SCROPEsaid, he had received a letter from an engineer, employed at present in Ireland, who stated that it almost broke his heart to be obliged to go on with works which would not and could not repay the outlay in a part of the country where he was surrounded with tracts of beautiful land, capable of supporting the population, if only drained, but which was altogether swamped with water. He added, that if the Government had the power of cutting main drains, as they now had of forming main roads through the country, it would be of the greatest importance. The subject was one which he (Mr. Scrope) trusted Her Majesty's Government had directed their attention to.
MR. STAFFORD O'BRIENsaid, before the noble Lord replied to the hon. Member who had just sat down, he begged to make a single observation. It would be in the recollection of the House, that he stated on Friday last, he was willing to
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accept the English poor law for Ireland, letter by letter, and clause by clause. As there was, however, a Bill brought in by the hon. Member for Rochdale, read a second time on the night before without a division, containing two principles of a novel character, he wished to know the course which Her Majesty's Government intended taking with regard to the application of those principles to Ireland. One was, that the portion of the rates for which the landlord was liable, should be paid in the first instance by him; and the other was, that there should be a discretionary power in boards of guardians to decide what portion of the rate to be collected should be collected, or should go into arrear. He perceived with much surprise that the sanction of the Government had been given to a Bill with these principles; and he would wish to ask the noble Lord whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to open now the question of poor-law rating in Ireland; and if so, whether they were prepared to sanction the two principles to which he alluded?
LORD JOHN RUSSELLreally could not presume to undertake to answer, on that Motion for putting off until Monday next the Committee on the Landed Property (Ireland) Bill, for all the various measures which it might be in the contemplation both of Her Majesty's Government, and of various Members of the House, to introduce. With respect to the question of the hon. Member behind him, with regard to drainage in Ireland, he apprehended that the operation alluded to, could be performed under the existing Bill, though no doubt it might at the same time be a desirable matter to have all the provisions of the several measures embodied in one Act. With respect to the question of his hon. Friend opposite, he really could not, seeing that there was another discussion to take place on the Bill of the hon. Member for Rochdale, undertake to state what course the Government would be prepared to adopt with respect to all the details of that measure. He certainly did not agree in all the principles introduced into the Bill; but, at the same time, he thought there were one or two good clauses in it, which ought to receive the sanction of the House.
The EARL of LINCOLNbegged to remind the House that the power alluded to by the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. P. Scrope) existed under the Bill which had been brought in by his noble Friend the

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present Earl of St. Germans, when Chief Secretary for Ireland, and that there were four other extensive systems of drainage brought forward under the sanction of the Government of which he (Lord Lincoln) was a Member, involving an expenditure in the gross of 120,000 l. or 130,000 l., a portion of which would be borne by the country.
Committee postponed.

SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
On the Motion that the House go into Committee of Supply,
MR. HUMEsaid, before the Speaker left the chair, he wished to offer a few observations to the House. It was not his intention to object to any of the items to be submitted to them in Committee; but he really could not avoid calling their serious attention to the situation in which they were going to place themselves. The right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer noticed on a former evening the gradual increase which was taking place in the army, navy, and ordnance establishments. Since the year 1822 there had not been such a large amount required for these departments as in the present year. He wanted to know what were the particular circumstances of the country which rendered this increase necessary in the present year. On a former occasion, when the position of the country was such as to render it incapable of bearing a proposed increase in these establishments, the House required the appointment of a Committee of Finance to inquire how the increase became necessary; and he, for one, did not hope for any success now until such an inquiry was instituted. Each of these departments was no doubt anxious to keep up its force as large as possible; but it was for the First Lord of the Treasury to deal with the aggregate amount, and to see that no expense was incurred that could be avoided. It appeared to him that no such care had been as yet manifested, or was likely to be exerted, until a general inquiry took place. It might be said that the end of the existence of Parliament was not a time for an inquiry such as he recommended to be commenced; but he trusted that next Session, which he hoped would be in a new Parliament, the matter would be taken up. He confessed that he had listened with alarm to some of the reasons put forward by his hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty—if he understood him rightly
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—to prove the necessity of the proposed increase. His hon. Friend dwelt on the increase that was taking place in the French navy; but he thought that the system of regulating their establishments or keeping them up because this or that foreign Power wished to keep up theirs, was one involving a very doubtful policy. The anticipated surplus of 60,000 l. for the present year, was, he considered, altogether too small a surplus to be depended on. He would not blame the present Ministers; but if the pressure from without was too great for them to withstand, the House ought to come to their support, and enable them to carry out any virtuous intentions they might entertain. He thought that the recent brevet was uncalled for, unless it was regarded as a means of enabling them to get rid of old and useless men. They had, latterly, a greater promotion in time of peace, than ever there was in time of war; and he hoped before long to bring this matter before the House in detail. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer complained of his hon. Friend, the other night, for not going further back on this subject than 1835. He was willing to meet the right hon. Baronet by going back any number of years he might desire. He had before taken the three years 1835–6–7, and he found that the army, navy, ordnance, and miscellaneous estimates for these three years amounted, in round numbers, to 43,000,000 l. sterling, being an average of 14,474,000 l. a year. Now, taking the three years, 1842–3–4, he found the aggregate under these heads to be fifty-five and a-half millions, giving an average of eighteen and a half millions for each year, or an excess of expenditure of 4,028,000 l. a year in the latter years compared with the former. He would like to know what were the circumstances which justified a greater expenditure now than in preceding years. He had looked around to ascertain how the relative condition of the country, in its external relations, had been altered in this period, but without discovering a sufficient cause. During the war with China, or during the foolish armament against Syria, some excuse for increased expenditure might be found; but at present he knew of no Power with which they had any hostility. The subject was one which the public—those who paid the taxes—ought to take up, but which, he regretted to say, they most unaccountably neglected. During the last general election, in no one case was a candidate

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pledged to economy. The electors had time to consider the subject; they had the taxes to pay, and on them the blame of this neglect should rest. He hoped a different feeling would be displayed on this question at the next general election; and if the electors did not then take it up, he had only to say that they would have no right afterwards to blame any one in that House. With the surplus revenue of last year before them, they ought to have been able this Session to take off the tax on soap and on bricks, and to have removed the duty on butter and on cheese. They might, he believed, have ultimately adopted his favourite project of doing away with the Excise altogether, and giving over the spirits and malt duties to the Customs, With the surplus of last year before them, they might, he thought, strike off three millions of taxes this year if the expenses for the navy, army, and ordnance were not so large. With one-half of this amount they might relieve the country from all the taxes he had enumerated, and with the other half they could remove the tax upon timber, which was one of the greatest burdens that now pressed on the industry of the country.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, his hon. Friend had put forward his statement with respect to the brevet without the slightest regard to the facts. His hon. Friend had insinuated that there were more officers now than at the close of the war; but the fact was, that at that period, there were 27,000, and now there were but 10,000. In like manner, there were then 674 general officers, and now there were but 319. His hon. Friend had also misrepresented the speech of his hon. Friend the Secretary of the Admiralty. What the right hon. Gentleman did say was, that all power was relative; and that, seeing a great nation, on whose cordial friendship they had not the greatest reliance, increasing its armaments, it was thought necessary, at least, to keep ours in an efficient condition. He (Sir De L. Evans), although with some pretensions to the character of a popular Member, would never support any attempt to reduce our defences under such circumstances. His hon. Friend used formerly to refer to the year 1792; that was his favourite reference at that time, though he might just as well have gone back to 1700—for the periods were equally dissimilar—and now the hon. Gentleman had got to 1841 and 1842. There was almost as great a difference between the hon. Gentleman's present periods
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of comparison as in the old ones. France had just expended 11,000,000 l. in fortifications—the greatest proportion of which were at Paris, and on the Channel coast—and in warlike preparations, and war too against this country—and were the Government at this juncture to diminish the efficiency of our defences? There was an increase in the French estimates of 10,000 men; but his hon. Friend did not approve of our following their example, and considered we ought not to be guided by the proceedings of other nations in this respect. That might be all very well if all other nations were disposed to join in one general bond of peace and amity; but circumstanced as other nations were, and circumstanced as we were with them, he was surprised to hear that a proposal had not been made on the part of the Government to increase both the naval and military forces. His hon. Friend had expressed surprise that the constituencies of the country had not obtained pledges on the hustings from their representatives to advocate a reduction of the national expenditure; but he was glad to perceive that in many cases there were more sensible electors out of the House than representatives in it—and he was happy to find that there did not exist in the public mind generally any idea that it would be prudent still further to reduce the national defences of the country. An election might soon be expected, and he for one announced that he should not be induced to promise upon the hustings the advocacy of any measure which might have the effect of decreasing the security or impairing the honour of the country.
LORD G. BENTINCK: Sir, I entirely concur with the gallant General opposite, that nothing can be more foolish than by silly reductions of the naval and military forces to expose to possible danger the security of the country; and I have heard with no inconsiderable surprise from the free traders opposite, that you no sooner establish free trade, than you increase the naval and military forces. I have been told, Sir, that the first effect of free trade would be that Christian unanimity among all nations which would enable us to rase all our battlements, lay flat our fortifications, disband our armies, and do away with our national defences; but I, as a protectionist, never foresaw that any of these consequences would arise. I never thought there would be more harmony between foreign countries and Great Britain,

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because we were unwise enough to admit the imports of those countries without charging them any duties. Because free traders are disposed, I am not disposed, to listen to the proposal for an unwise or foolish reduction of the military or naval establishments of the country, nor, any more than the gallant Gentleman opposite, to expose the security of the country to the inroads of foreign nations.
DR. BOWRINGdid not agree with the noble Lord opposite (Lord G. Bentinck), in thinking that the abolition of restrictive duties would not promote harmony among nations. He believed that the interests of peace were associated with free trade, and that their public recognition would ultimately lead to a considerable decrease in the naval and military establishments of Great Britain. He had, in the course of the present debate, heard much about "silly economy," "dangerous experiments," "defenceless position," "rash retrenchments," and similar observations, which he believed were calculated to do much mischief; and however hon. Gentlemen might consider proposals for reductions in the naval and military establishments of the country dangerous and inexpedient, still he believed there was in the country a sanguine hope and expectation that at no distant period both branches of the service would be materially reduced. For his own part, he felt that we ought to be bound together by something far stronger than that which was termed our "means of defence"—and that our merchants would be found far better defenders than our armies. He was not aware of what had happened at the various hustings with respect to pledges exacted by electors on the necessity of curtailing the national expenditure; but he could say, that as far as he was concerned, he had received more than one significant hint—more than one severe lesson—more than one honest caution as to how he might lend himself to the proposal of any increase in either the Army or Navy. Although in the present emergency the country placed implicit reliance on the wisdom of Government, and larger demands were made upon its resources than, perhaps, any previous Government had ever required; still the country felt that economy ought to be exercised in all the public departments of the State to the utmost extent consistent with efficiency and good order.
MR. WILLIAMSremarked that, in the observations he was about to make, he
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would not occupy much of the time of the House. He was not surprised to find any estimates, no matter how extravagant, connected with the naval or military services, supported by hon. and gallant Gentlemen engaged in the profession of arms. He was not without hope that the noble Lord at the head of the Administration would have followed the example of the Governments of Lords Grey and Melbourne, of which he was so distinguished a Member, and commenced with proposing a great reduction in all the departments of the national expenditure. Lord Melbourne had pursued that course, and with so much success that the expenditure for public purposes was brought below 8,000,000 l. less than the proposed expenditure for the present year. The estimates for the present year exceeded those of last year in every department. It had been stated a few evenings before by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Admiralty, that at the present time there were but 20,000 regular soldiers in Great Britain. The hon. Gentleman must have paid very little attention to the condition of the army, or he could not have made such a statement. He would state to the House the numerical strength of the Army at the present time as compared with former periods; and he would feel obliged if the Secretary at War would state some valid reason for the great increase. The number of men for whom they were now called on to vote estimates, amounted to 138,895 officers and men; artillery, 12,392; and marines on shore (included in another estimate), 6,500; making an entire force of 157,787 men. There were, in addition, the Irish police, than whom there was not a finer body of men in the world, 10,000; and pensioners as efficient as any portion of the British army, 10,000 more; making a regular army of 177,787. There were in India, 34,970. He did not know how many there were in the colonies; but in January, 1845, there were 38,000, to which he would add 5,000 more; thus leaving for the colonies 43,000, and for Ireland 34,000, making 107,000, which, if deducted from the grand total before mentioned, would leave a regular force of 77,787 men in Great Britain. There were in addition other forces which could be brought into active service at almost a moment's notice, viz., 13,000 militia, 14,000 yeomanry, and the whole body of the London police. There were also the out-pensioners of the Army and Navy, 65,000 and the half-pay officers,

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5,300, making altogether 98,000 men. A large portion of that force he thought could render most efficient service, and might be got into readiness, and by reason of the great facilities of communication, and transported to any portion of the coast, to repel an invasion by the French or other foreign Power, should such attempt be made. He saw no reason why this great increase in the Army might not be reduced to the extent of 20,000 men. [Admiral NAPIER: No, no.] The hon. and gallant Admiral might say "No, no," and shake his head; but perhaps he would explain the necessity for the immense increase in the Army and Navy, as compared with the years 1835, 1836, and 1837. It was his intention to propose a reduction of 20,000 men in the present estimate, and that would leave 34,200 men more than in the years 1835, 1836, and 1837. The Archbishop of Dublin — [Admiral NAPIER: Hear!] The hon. and gallant Admiral might laugh; but he begged to assure him that the right rev. Prelate was a person of great distinction, and one to whose opinion much weight ought to attach. The Archbishop of Dublin had stated in his speech a few months ago, at the celebration of the Manchester Athenæum, that every common soldier cost the country as much as would suffice for the maintenance of a schoolmaster, and the education of 100 children. He would propose to reduce the Life Guards from 6,008 to 5,000, and to reduce the Foot Guards by 2,630. He calculated that the Horse Guards cost the country, including horses and accoutrements, 130 l. each; but, supposing the sum smaller, the reducing their numbers by 1,008 would save 105,000 l. per annum. The actual cost of 2,630 Foot Guards was 105,452 l. The cost of the whole reduction would amount to 210,492 l. The amount saved would amount to a sum sufficient to pay 5,250 schoolmasters at 40 l. a year each, and thus afford the advantages of education to one-half of the principalities of England and Wales. He was sure Her Majesty would prefer dispensing with some portion of her guards, whose only occupation appeared to be idling about. The pensions paid in the Army and Navy at present exceeded 3,702,000 l., a considerable portion of which was expended upon persons who had rendered very little services to the State. He was the last man in the world to oppose the payment of pensions to those who served their country; but he certainly objected to pensioning the
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host of general officers who worked their way up through the Foot Guards. He had been informed that two-thirds of the general officers worked their way up in that manner. With regard to widows and children, he would maintain in respectability every person who had lost his life in the public service. [Great laughter.] If hon. Gentlemen would hear him out, and not laugh until he had finished, he would explain his meaning, which was, that he would handsomely provide for the widows and children of those who might have lost their lives in the public service. But perhaps hon. Gentlemen were not aware of the many heavy charges upon the fund appropriated to that purpose. There were belonging to the Army 2,862 widows and children; of the Navy, 2,587; and of the Ordnance, 445; making 5,894 dependent for support upon the public. He could not propose any reduction under the head of such pensions; but he did think that 20,000 men might be reduced from the service, and still leave a force efficient for every purpose that might be required of them. Bearing in mind the distress which prevailed in Ireland, in Scotland, and in the manufacturing distress of England, he could not refrain from urging upon the Government the expediency of making the reduction he suggested.
MR. BROTHERTONsaid, if ever there was a period when it would be well to economise the time of the House, the present was that period. Under this impresion, he rose merely for the purpose of protesting against the invasion of the rules of Parliament, by discussing questions with the Speaker in the chair, which ought to be discussed in Committee. However desirous he and other hon. Members might be to procure a reduction in the Army, he was sure they could never arrive at such a result by pursuing their present course. He hoped, therefore, the House would not complain if he moved at Twelve o'clock that the House adjourn, or the Committee report progress. He objected to these irregular discussions, and he hoped they would at once go into Committee, and then proceed with the business.
House in Committee of Supply.
MR. F. MAULEsaid, it would not have been possible for him, in the ordinary course of affairs, to have read his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. Williams) the lecture which he had just received from his hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Mr. Brotherton); but he trusted

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the hon. Member for Coventry would not quarrel with him (Mr. F. Maule) if he stated it as his opinion, that the House should be much indebted to the hon. Member for Salford for what he had just said. And he must add, it certainly would be much more convenient to discuss the several topics to which the hon. Member for Coventry had alluded, as they should arise on the various votes, than that the hon. Member should have made a statement mixing up together the Army, the Navy, and the Ordnance, English and Irish police, and the Archbishop of Dublin, rendering it almost impossible for any man who had the individual charge of those estimates to separate one from the other. The hon. Member for Montrose had stated that there was this year a decrease in the vote for the effective service, but a large increase in the non-effective service: that was so; but the hon. Member should recollect that he had himself been at least an accessary after the fact to that increase in the non-effective service, for he was one who had assented as cordially as any hon. Member in that House to the remission of the charge which had formerly been carried to the credit of the public of 50,000 l. for poundage on pensions, to the extent of which sum, and somewhat more, the charge for the non-effective services had certainly been increased. But passing from matters not immediately connected with the statement he was about to make, and not taking upon himself to enter upon any questions of the general policy, he would proceed at once to make, as succinctly as possible, the usual financial statement of the military affairs of this country. He thought he should best consult the convenience of the Committee, if he applied himself immediately to the estimates before the House, and afterwards alluded generally to those topics of military interest on which the Committee might think it desirable to be informed. With reference to the estimates, it would appear that the number of men to be voted in the aggregate for the ensuing year, was 138,895, the gross charge for which was 5,155,848 l.; the gross non-effective charge for the ensuing year was 2,175,227 l., making a total charge of 7,331,075 l. From that, however, must be deducted the cost defrayed by the East India Company for 30,497 men, amounting to 978,211 l.; the amount of appropriations in aid of the land forces in the United Kingdom and the colonies, amounting to 53,375 l.; the balance from
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the Royal Military College of 17,033 l.; a small appropriation from the Royal Military Asylum and Hibernian School of 245 l. There was also to be deducted the appropriation in aid on the non-effective service of 7,137 l., which made a total reduction from the effective and non-effective services of 1,056,001 l. The gross total, then, to be provided for the ensuing year was 6,275,074 l., and the total number of men was 108,398. The first vote which he should propose was for that number of men, being the number considered necessary for the public service during the ensuing year, and being a decrease on the number voted last year of 210 men. He might, therefore, fairly state to his hon. Friend, that, as far as this vote went, the services of the two years were nearly identical. There were, however, some changes in the arrangement of that number of men, which he thought it necessary to allude to. There was a decrease in the strength of regiments coming from foreign service, five of which would shortly arrive. Those regiments had hitherto consisted of 1,000 men each: when they reached this country their strength would be reduced to 800; and that, together with a reduction in the number of non-commissioned officers, and another small reduction of 36 men, made a reduction of 1,111 men. Increases, however, had been made in other quarters to the amount of 901 men, which left, as he had already stated, the number now proposed less by 210 than the number taken last year. As the mode in which these increases were proposed to be made, involved a principle, he would at once state it to the Committee as briefly and as explicitly as possible. It was proposed to raise a body of 682 men, inclusive of officers, for the service of the garrison at Hong Kong, and to add that body to the Ceylon corps. In adopting that mode of providing for the service of Hong Kong, they proposed to act upon the principle which had formerly been discussed in that House, and of which he had a very high opinion—of employing, wherever they could with efficiency and safety, colonial corps, for the purpose of protecting our colonial possessions. That plan was not only more economical in point of administration, but it was infinitely more so on a much more essential point, viz., the preservation of the health of our troops. Instead, therefore, of keeping British troops at Hong Kong, where, he was sorry to say, many brave men had fallen a prey to the diseases

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incident to that climate, it was proposed to withdraw the garrison at present stationed there, and to supply its place with a corresponding number of men natives of those districts from which the Ceylon corps were raised. Another increase—the first, but he feared not the last that would have to be proposed—was to the Cape corps, to which had already been added two companies, or 174 men. But Sir H. Pottinger had been instructed to make greater additions to that corps; and he might state, that it was in contemplation still further to consider the means of providing for the defence of the extended frontier of that colony. Now, the hon. Member for Coventry had spoken of proposing a reduction of 20,000 men in the Army. For his part, if he thought they could spare 20,000 men, without any reference to the defences of the country, but simply with reference to the general operation of relieving regiments from time to time, he should be glad to make it. But his firm belief was, that if they intended to relieve their regiments at any thing like proper intervals—if they wanted to have them constituted of soldiers maintaining the dignity and supporting the interests of this country, and not to make their soldiers exiles from their native shores for an indefinite period of time, they could not accede to the proposition of the hon. Member. He would now state to what an extent they had brought the system of relieving regiments. He believed there was—or rather, he should say, there would be—after the arrival of one, which was now on its way here, no regiment which had been in India above fourteen years and a half; and he believed there was no regiment in this country which had been at home more than four years. He hoped, in course of time—for it was only by time that such arrangements could be accomplished—to reduce the longest period of absence of any regiment from this country to something not much exceeding thirteen years. With these observations, he passed to the next vote—the charge for the land force in the ensuing year. On that charge there was, he was happy to say, a decrease of expense to the public—owing to the appropriations in aid having amounted to so large a sum—of 44,151 l. He was, however, bound to admit, in reference to this vote, that had it not been for the appropriations in aid, there would appear an increase upon the vote of 7,716 l.; but as it stood, in consequence of the appropriations
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in aid, there was a decrease on the vote of 44,151 l. The next vote to which he came, was the vote for the expenses of staff, &c., and on that vote there was an increase of 8,343 l.; but that increase was principally occasioned by charges caused abroad, amongst which were to be included the increased force sent to the Cape of Good Hope from this country; and he thought that the Committee would admit, with him, that in all those unfortunate wars, such as that at the Cape of Good Hope—they might term them little wars if they liked—the worst way of proceeding was by doing, as sometimes had been done, namely, endeavouring to settle them in a little way. Such a proceeding was calculated, and would be calculated, particularly in the case of the occurrences at the Cape of Good Hope, to lead eventually to additional expense; whilst the effect of sending such reinforcements as we had sent of men and officers, was, that a movement had taken place by the British troops in that colony which had completely paralysed the Kaffers, who were in arms against us, and laid the foundation of a strong hope that the next accounts from that colony would be of submission on the part of the Kaffers, and of a preparation on our part to secure the frontier which we had established, and withdrawing some of our troops. He hoped that the Committee would permit him to pay a passing testimony to the gallantry of our troops in that colony—no corps of which troops had been more distinguished by its conduct than the Colonial Corps, and Colonel Somerset, who mainly directed its operations. The increase of reinforcements was one cause of the increase of 8,443 l. in the vote for the Staff. The next vote to which he would direct passing attention, was the vote for the expenses of the public department, which showed an increase of 2,093 l.; but that increase would be sufficiently explained when he stated, that it was caused entirely by an increase in the amount of postage, thus showing an increase in the work which those in that department were called upon to perform. The next vote to which he came was, the charge for military asylums; the charge for this year being 17,633 l., and that for last year being 14,062; thus leaving an increase of 3,571 l. on the vote of this year; but then it ought to be calculated that there were 2,000 l. additional incurred in furtherance of the new system of education which it was proposed to establish at the Royal Military Asylum.

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He would enter more into the subject of the new system of education hereafter; and, therefore, he did not feel it necessary on that occasion to say any more with respect to it. The next vote was for the volunteer corps, which, having been out for exercise last year more than in former years, caused an increase of 3,939 l., as compared with the vote of last year. There was in the estimates of last year a vote of 36,500 l. for what were called unprovided services, which vote was not to be proposed this year, as it was thought better that the provision for these services should be made in the coming year as the occasion for them arrived, so that the effective service votes were reduced in that respect by 36,500 l.; from which, if they took the various increases of 17,936 l, would leave 18,564 l. decrease; the total decrease in the land force expense being 63,715 l. on the effective services for this year. He now came to the votes for the non-effective service; or, as it was commonly called, the dead-weight on those estimates. The hon. Member for Montrose had stated, that there was a considerable increase on the votes for those services this year; and he stated, also, that he had observed a steady increase in every vote under certain heads; but he believed that the hon. Member did not look at those estimates with that care which he usually bestowed on such subjects; for scarcely any item in these non-effective service estimates could be compared to the items in similar estimates last year, as the votes for last year were only taken for three-quarters of the year, whilst the votes for this year were taken for four quarters. It had been deemed right to audit these accounts by the same conditions as those which were applied to the accounts of the Navy estimates; and for that purpose only three-quarters were taken in many of the votes for the non-effective service last year, whilst the four quarters of the year were taken in the present votes. The first vote to which he came in the non-effective service was, the vote under the head "rewards for military services," a vote on which there was an apparent increase this year of 3,740 l.; but the charge last year, if the four quarters had been included, would have been for this vote of 16,079 l., whilst for the four quarters of this year it was but 15,740 l., so that there was a decrease on this vote for this year of 339 l. This was a vote, the object of which was to reward distinguished services and good behaviour
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in the men, and distinguished services on the part of the officers of the Army; and he was sure that all those who were interested in the Army would rather hope to see those rewards go on; and in reference to that subject he had the gratification of being able to state that this year there were given 1,040 l. as rewards to meritorious non-commissioned officers, in annuities of 10 l. to 20 l. each, as the reward of-their services. The next vote to which he came was the vote under the head of "pay of general offices," which vote showed an increase of 33,000 l. over the vote for the same purpose last year; but it should be recollected that there were included in that sum 17,000 l., the expenses of the brevet, whilst there should be deducted from it, as compared with the vote of last year, a sum of 16,000 l. for the quarter, which was not charged in the vote of last year. The brevet, he was happy to say, did not include the higher ranks of the Army only, but also went to the lower ranks; and if it did not, he (Mr. F. Maule) would say that it would not have been sufficient. Seeing, therefore, what the brevet had been, he did not think that the sum of 17,000 l. would be looked upon by the House or the country as a sum which they would grudge to the Army, considering what sort of an army we had. The next vote to which he came was the vote for the "full pay for retired officers," which showed an apparent increase of 13,000 l. over the last year; but if the whole four quarters of last year were taken into calculation, it showed a sum of 61,000 l. as against 59,000 l. for this year, being a reduction of 2,000 l. He now came to the vote for half-pay and military allowances; and he held in his hand a paper which showed the state of that vote in 1830, as compared with its amount in 1847, by which it appeared that there had been a gradual decrease in the amount of the vote; for whilst the vote for that purpose was 720,000 l. in 1830, it was but 420,000 l. for this year, There was an apparent increase of 94,000 l. on that vote for this year; but if the uncharged quarter were added to the vote of last year, it would make 108,000 l., thus showing an actual decrease in the vote for this year of 14,000 l. The vote to which he would next direct the attention of the Committee was the vote for "foreign half-pay," which showed a decrease of 1,145 l. compared with last year. The vote last year was 50,281 l., whilst this year it was

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49,136 l. He now came to the vote for "widows' pensions," which showed an apparent increase for this year of 27,659 l.; but if there were added to the vote of last year 34,619 l., it would make 138,819 l., which, compared with 131,859 l. for this year, would show a decrease on the vote of this year of 6,960 l. The amount of the vote for widows' pensions in 1830 was 145,000 l., whilst in 1847 it was 131,859 l., which showed that the expense had decreased since 1830. He now came to the vote for "compassionate allowance," on which there was an apparent increase of 16,000 l.; but the amount last year for the four quarters, one quarter having been omitted, would have been 102,000 l., whilst the sum for this year was but 98,000 l., thus showing an absolute decrease of 4,000 l. as compared to last year. The amount of this vote in 1830 was 185,000 l., as compared with 95,000 l. this year, so that it was evident the decrease was going on in this vote also. The vote for the expenses of Chelsea and Kilmainham showed an increase of 1,973 l.; the vote to out-pensioners this year was 45,382 l., whilst the charge for those on the establishments named was 1,236,752 l., as compared with 1,191,350 l. last year. It was necessary to give some explanation of that, as there were 961 men less on the out-pension list for this year than for last year, so that there would have been a reduction if it had not been for other indispensable charges this year. The first item in the increase of the vote was one which the House had admitted, namely, 50,000 l., the charge for poundage to the out-pensioners, which had been relinquished; then there was a charge of 2,387 l. for the organization of the Chelsea pensioners, 6,000 l. for organizing the body that were about to proceed to New Zealand, an organization the object of which was twofold. A body of 500 pensioners were to be sent out to New Zealand, with certain advantages to which he would allude more fully at a future period: they were to be placed in our settlements, and after a certain residence in their localities, they were to be made settlers; whilst in the mean time they would be found productive of very great advantage in the defence of the colonists, and this would be effected by the proposed plan at a moderate expense. All these additions should be taken into consideration when looking at the increase of 45,382 l. The vote for "superannuated allowances" showed an apparent increase of 9,000 l.;
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but if the omitted quarter were added to the vote of last year, it would be found that the real estimate of last year was exactly the same as the amount of the estimate of this year. Those were the details of the votes for the non-effective service of this year, the gross increase in the votes for that service being 254,391 l. for this year; but against that there should be taken into calculation the quarters omitted from several votes last year, which would leave an increase of only 35,911 l. on the non-effective votes; and if that were compared with the diminution on the effective force estimates of 62,000 l., in round numbers, it would show a decrease in the service of this year of upwards of 26,000 l.; and he would say, therefore, that when they considered the 50,000 l. poundage, the 17,000 l. expenses of the brevet, and the sum for the additional day in next year, it being leap-year, they would admit that every attention had been paid to economy in the preparation of the votes. He felt it necessary to allude to an observation of the hon. Member for Montrose, who said, he believed accidentally, that the object of every department was to make its estimates as high as possible. He (Mr. F. Maule) could only say, that so far as the department with which he was connected was concerned, the principle which was acted upon was to make the estimates as low as possible consistently with the public interests; and if his hon. Friend the Member for Montrose would consult those who were paid through that department, or who sought anything through that department, he would find a different character of it from them. He had now stated the sums which it was calculated would be required for the public service of the country during the ensuing year; and with regard to the efficiency of the Army, he would not say one word more than that the efficiency of the British Army was now such as it always had been, and as he trusted it always would be. He had already stated the condition of the British Army as respected reliefs; and the returns which he had before him showed that great improvements had been made, with a view of preserving the health of our troops. By improving the stations of our troops in the West Indies where it was required, and placing barracks in better situations in some islands, and supplying black troops for certain duties in unhealthy places, as well as providing black pioneers to do some duties, he believed the mortality in the

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West India Islands, with the exception of a portion, had been reduced 13–10ths per cent. The colonies were divided into healthy and unhealthy stations. In the Mediterranean, from the year 1830 to the year 1846, the mortality was 13–10ths per cent; whereas in the twenty years preceding, in amounted to 2 per cent. In the Bermudas, Nova Scotia, Canada, and Newfoundland, the mortality was 13–10ths per cent; while during the period antecedent to 1830, it reached 21–10th per cent. In New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land, and the Cape of Good Hope, it was 14–10ths per cent; and was very nearly the same at the period preceding 1830. In St. Helena, the Mauritius, and Jamaica, the mortality since 1836 had been 19–10ths per cent, or 19 in every 1,000; whereas prior to 1836 it had been 91 in every 1,000. This diminution had been brought about by the substitution, particularly in Jamaica, of fresh meat for salt meat in the rations, and by the alterations which had been made in the barracks of the troops. In the unhealthy stations, including the rest of the West Indies and Ceylon, he was in a condition to state, that though the mortality was greater than could be wished, being 44–10ths per cent, it was much less than it had been, as the mortality had mounted as high as 74–10ths per cent; and he hoped that by substituting at Hong Kong colonial troops for British troops, we should have less mortality there than was the case at present. He was sorry that he could not hold out the same expectations with regard to India; for, as his right hon. Friend opposite well know, he had little means of controlling the mortality which took place among the troops in that country. That mortality, he regretted to state, was increasing to a very considerable extent. The fact was known to none better than to the noble Lord (Viscount Hardinge), who formerly filled the situation which he (Mr. F. Maule) now held, and now exercised supreme command over India; and he hoped that when that noble Lord's mind was a little more at liberty to turn itself to such questions, he would direct his attention to a subject which he heard had long occupied his thoughts; and that before the noble Lord retraced his steps homewards, he would devise some means of promoting the health of the troops in India, by erecting barracks in the highlands of Madras and Bombay, and the ranges of the Himalaya mountains. He was quite sure that till something of
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that nature was undertaken, there could be no possible hope of reducing the present rate of mortality amongst the military in India. There was another question on which he had to beg the attention of the Committee, and that was on the subject of the moral training now going on in the Army. He had taken a vote of 2,000 l. for the establishment of normal and model schools at the Royal Military Asylum. The Government proposed also to establish other model schools, upon which the regimental schools should be modelled, and also infant schools for the orphans and children of British soldiers. This plan he had found left him as a legacy by his right hon. Friend (Mr. S. Herbert) who had preceded him in office—a plan which did him infinite credit, and for being the author of which he was sure that, in the course of a very few years, the Army would look back to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. S. Herbert) with gratitude. He believed that by following out this plan, we should not only achieve a good education for the children of the soldiery, but for the soldiers themselves, which would enable them, after their period of service was over, to do something for themselves. He was happy also in being able to state, that libraries were increasing gradually and progressively. This year there had been an increase of 10,000 volumes in the libraries of the Army; and he intended to ask for a vote of 2,000 l. for the purpose of further augmenting them. With regard to the discipline of the Army, he had only to say that it was in such a state as to cause him much satisfaction. From the month of July up to the close of the past year, there had been only five instances of corporal punishment; and he might venture to say that as the system of secondary punishment became perfect, he should expect to see the practice of corporal punishment die away altogether. With respect to military prisons, he might say that they were working as well as could be possibly wished. There were now established nine of these buildings in Great Britain and Ireland: four in England, four in Ireland, and one in Scotland. From all of these, the reports received from the governors of the prisons were most satisfactory. The effect upon the morals of the soldiers by placing them in military prisons, was stated to be very great. They were freed from the danger of contamination in a civil gaol, and this was felt to be one of the greatest boons conferred on the Army. The report stated

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that soldiers upon their return from these military prisons were almost immediately fit for duty, whereas formerly it was weeks and months before they were fit for it. He was glad to say that there was no instance of any soldier in these prisons having been injured in his mind, and it was found that their feelings had been softened, and that they often were reformed; whereas under the whole regime they never came out of prison better than they went in, and often came out much worse. The labour performed in these prisons was certainly severe. Complaints were made against it; but he was not disposed to attend to them, provided he found it did no injury to the prisoners. The labour was so severe, and so strict was the discipline, that no temptation was held out to the soldier to shirk his duty for the purpose of getting into these prisons; and he believed that no one came out of them without entertaining a hearty intention at the time to do the best he could not to get in again. These were the essential points to which he wished to refer on the present occasion. There were various other particulars to which the attention of the Government would be turned, in order to improve the condition of the soldier. His hon. Friend the Clerk of the Ordnance would ask for a vote of 5,000 l. for the establishment of washhouses. The Government were disposed to watch over the welfare of the soldier in every particular; and as proofs of that disposition he might refer to their having proposed and carried through the House the restitution, as he might call it, of 50,000 l. a year, which was formerly charged as poundage upon the pensions of old soldiers, and the proposal which he had had the pleasure of laying before the House for limiting the period of service. This, he thought, would show what were the feelings of the Government towards the Army, and how they had attended to their interests. He believed that the more care we took of the soldier in time of peace, and the more we trained him in those habits which made him a good citizen, the more serviceable he would be found in time of need. He hoped also that we should train him in those maxims and habits of economy which it was the object and the duty of the Government to encourage, and induce the people of this country to look on the Army, not as a refuge for the outcasts of society, but as an honourable profession, in which they might encourage their children to embark, with the expectation of receiving them, after their period
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of service had expired, improved in every way, and with their morals duly and properly attended to. With these observations he begged leave to propose the first Vote on the Paper, namely, that the number of officers non-commissioned officers, and rank and file, maintained for the service of the United Kingdom (exclusive of the troops in the East Indies), be 108,398 men.
MR. W. WILLIAMSobserved, that it was almost the first time since he had had a seat in that House, that he had heard estimates in which there was hardly an item that wanted explanation. He had mentioned his intention of proposing a reduction of 20,000 men; but upon consulting his Friends about him, he found so little encouragement that he did not intend to press his Motion.
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, that the disposition evinced by the Government to promote the health and moral training of the troops, gave him great satisfaction. To give full scope to these efforts of the Government, and to do full justice to commanding officers, he should venture to suggest the establishment of discipline companies. Many of the foreign armies were obliged to resort to that expedient. With regard to the barracks of the men, he begged leave to remind his right hon. Friend, that the accommodation of many of the barracks was still exceedingly defective. In many barracks there was not more than one foot between each of the beds, and he hoped that a much larger vote would be taken for this purpose. Indeed, he thought the vote ought to be doubled or trebled.
MR. S. HERBERTrose chiefly to express his gratification at the manner in which the improvements effected in the social state of the Army had been carried out by his right hon. Friend. With respect to the subject of the education of the Army, to which his right hon. Friend had alluded, in a manner very gratifying to himself, he felt that it could not have fallen into more zealous and more able hands than those of his right hon. Friend. He ventured, however, to throw out for the consideration of his right hon. Friend, whether the system of education in the normal schools at Chelsea might not be carried still further, by inducing some system of examination for promotion from the lower ranks. He should be glad also to see greater theoretical acquirements among the officers. He was happy to find

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that the moral state of the Army was very much improved. He believed that with reference to punishments, during the last ten years there had been a very large diminution; and what was a still better test, the number of trials in the Army had been greatly reduced. It might be seen also, that a spirit of thought and providence in the Army was beginning to exist, which would no doubt lead to very desirable results. The system introduced by Lord Howick, in 1836, was the foundation of the present system of rewards in the Army; and he did not think that the Army was indebted to any one so much as it was to the noble Lord for that plan. He had endeavoured to carry out that system further; and his right hon. Friend (Mr. F. Maule) had entered into all these plans with so much earnestness, and had given so much attention to the subject, that there was reason to hope that we might soon see the Army in a very superior state.
MR. EWARTwas disappointed at the vote on account of education, which was only 9,000 l. He hoped that the attention of Government would be directed to the subject. With respect to the savings banks, he regretted to find that the sum of 2,000 l. was all that was charged for this branch. So small a sum spoke little for that frugality which it was so desirable to inculcate in the Army. The right hon. Gentlemen had spoken of the theoretical education of officers. He thought if these officers had something given them to do in country quarters it would be advisable. He considered that our officers were the least intellectual, compared with other officers, throughout Europe, and it would be better if something was done to afford them more employment than they had at present.
MR. GOULBURNquite agreed with all the encomiums which had been passed upon the statement of the right hon. Gentleman opposite. There was but one point on which he would remark. In alluding to the colonial corps, the right hon. Gentleman had expressed a hope, that the employment of such bodies would become more general in our settlements abroad. Now, as what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman on the point, might be held to imply the opinion that there should be a general introduction of colonial corps, he felt bound to take every opportunity of protesting against any such principle. In cases where the regular soldiers were found not to be able to bear the severity of any
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particular climate, then it might be advisable that native corps should be employed. But he objected to the general principle of employing colonial corps instead of portions of the regular Army. He held it to be most advisable that the military defenders of any colony ought to form a part of the Imperial Army, and to partake in the dignity of being constituent portions of the Army of Great Britain.
Vote agreed to, as were several other Votes.
On the Question that the Chairman do report progress,
SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, it having been announced that the Government intended to give some distinctive mark of honour to the officers who served in the Peninsula, he wished to know whether it was intended to give them to the survivors only, or also to the families of deceased officers? His own impression was, that it should be given to the survivors only; but it was a subject on which he could scarcely venture to offer an opinion. He wished, however, to call the attention of the Government to the circumstance, that there were still living some of those who served at Trafalgar, and to state that he should be ashamed to bring forward the claims of the Army, without recommending, at the same time, the claims of those who performed such glorious services at Trafalgar. He still hoped the Government would not forget them. He would also take the opportunity of making a personal allusion. It would be recollected, that last year the noble Lord recommended to Her Majesty to appoint the son of General Nott to a living, and that Her Majesty did so to the great satisfaction of that House and the country. Now, it so happened, that the last words written by that gallant hero, Lord Nelson, was a recommendation of his adopted daughter to the care and protection of the country. He had not the slightest knowledge of that lady, but he understood she was married to a highly-esteemed clergyman of the Church of England, who had but a small provision in his profession, which he (Sir De L. Evans) now mentioned for the noble Lord's consideration; and in the hope that, although this lady had been so discreditably neglected by the Government of the day, the present Government would take an early opportunity of doing as much for her husband, as they had so properly done for the son of General Nott.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he had stated before, that it was very difficult for

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Her Majesty's Government to entertain a question which had already been considered and decided upon by their predecessors. The aspect of the measure had, however, been altered of late years by the medals given for services in India and China; and it was natural to suppose that the Peninsular veterans, when they saw others decorated with marks of honour, might feel dissatisfied if similar badges of distinction were refused to them. With this view, Her Majesty's Ministers felt it their duty to advise Her Majesty, that medals should be granted to the soldiers of the Peninsula. It seemed to them, that it would be the best way to confine the grant of medals to persons present at actions on account of which medals had formerly been given to officers of certain rank and standing, and which the Sovereign had thus at the time pointed out to be actions deserving of rewards. They determined, therefore, to restrict this reward to those of our soldiers and non-commissioned officers who had been present in such actions. That was the principle which had determined the Government in agreeing to confer this mark of distinction. With respect to the Navy, it was expected by those who had participated in the triumphs of that service, that there should be some similar distinction given to it. On consideration the subject was found to be full of difficulty. The battle of Trafalgar was hardly a fair case to take by way of illustration; for, whereas the Army had no opportunity of encountering any considerable enemy except during the later period of the war, the naval service had been greatly distinguished during the earlier part of the war, and after 1805 there there was hardly any enemy to contend with it. It was, therefore, necessary for the Government of this country to consider the services of the Navy at a much earlier time than those of the Army, they having had priority of time with respect to their actual occurrence. In coming to a decision with respect to a reward for the service of the Navy, the same general principle had been observed as in the other case. It was agreed to take those actions only for which particular medals had been given; and the First Lord of the Admiralty had tendered advice to the Crown upon that principle. It was impossible to make any distribution of rewards for services so long past, upon any principle which should not leave out some distinguished and celebrated officers; but it had been deemed best to select the principle he had stated, and take as the
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basis actions of which the importance had been previously recognised. With respect to the latter part of the gallant Officer's observations, he was not aware of the circumstance to which he alluded, and therefore could make no remark on the subject. The medals would take some time in preparation, but they would be issued as soon as they were ready.
SIR R. PEELasked whether or no the Government had come to any decision with respect to the erection of some public monument to the memory of Sir Robert Sale, Sir Robert Dick, and the officers of the rank of Colonel, who had fallen in the glorious battles of Ferozeshah and Sobraon.
LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, they had come to no final decision the subject. He understood it had been the decision of the former Government that there should be a monument which should at the same time celebrate the different officers who had thus fallen. It seemed to him that this would be the best plan to adopt.
SIR R. PEELthought, instead of having a separate statue for each, it would be best to have some public record of the two battles, which should commemorate the actions, and at the same time to have a separate medallion for the specific services performed at each battle.
SIR C. NAPIERcomplained that, as medals were to be given for services in India and China, as well as for the battles of the last war, none were to be assigned to the seamen and officers who had served in the Syrian campaign. There was a very strong feeling among those who had shared its labours and perils, as to the justice of such a concession. He did not think there was anything particularly wonderful in the capture of Saint John d'Acre; but it could not be denied that the taking of so strong a fortress by a British squadron was a very gallant achievement. Why should not the Mediterranean squadron be rewarded in the same way as the others?
LORD J. RUSSELLadmitted that the services to which the hon. and gallant Admiral referred, had been of a very brilliant and distinguished character; but there had been services, not inferior, performed at Algiers and Navarino, which, if those of Acre were to be so rewarded, must likewise have medals.
SIR C. NAPIERquite agreed with the noble Lord, and ventured to say with respect to the battle of Algiers, that there was not an action fought during the whole

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war which was superior to it. The Admiral on that occasion, with five or six sail of the line, attacked one of the strongest places in the world; and he believed that scarcely any other man in the Navy would have done what Lord Exmouth did on that occasion. As to the action of Navarino, that was fought under very different circumstances; but no one could deny that the British commander had done his duty well.
House resumed.

DRAINAGE.
SIR G. GREY, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act 9 and 10 Victoria, cap. 101, authorizing the advance of public money for the improvement of land by drainage, explained that it was proposed for the purpose of extending the objects to which money lent in terms of the Drainage Act of last year might be applied. Where there was a large seaboard, it was found impossible for the proprietors to raise means for the purpose of rendering the drainage effectual, and the land safe by enclosure and the formation of proper outfalls. He proposed to retain the proviso of the Act of last Session, that the land improved should be liable to an annual charge for twenty-two years; but a provision would be introduced, limiting the amount of the advances to individual proprietors; for it would be seen that some very large demands had been made under the Act of last Session, and a great desire existed to reduce the extent of such demands within moderate bounds. It was proposed, that when applications were made for advances, certificates should be issued by the Enclosure Commissioners for such an amount as in their opinion could properly be expended within three years, and that the parties should have no claim to the use of what was left unexpended at the end of that period.
Leave given. Bill brought in and read a first time.

ARMY ENLISTMENT.
MR. F. MAULEmoved for leave to bring in a Bill for limiting the time of service in the Army. He had stated the other night, that it was not his intention to enter into any details of this Bill; these he should leave to the second reading. He might mention, that the period named in the Bill, was ten years for the infantry, and twelve years for the cavalry and artillery.
MR. HINDLEYhoped, that more time would be given to persons who enlisted, to think of the step they had taken, and suggested that twenty-four hours might be given to them to consider whether they would enter the Army or not. He had known persons in a state of drunkenness for twenty-four hours.
MR. F. MAULEcould assure the hon. Gentleman, that the authorities would do what they could to discountenance such practices; where parties were not in possession of their right senses, it could hardly be considered an enlistment at all.
Leave given.
House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Bankruptcy and Insolvency; Custody of Offenders; Prisons.
2a Labouring Poor (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Guardians of the Beaminster Union, for the Repeal of the present Law of Settlement, and for a National Rate for the Relief of the Poor.

THE HARBOURS OF PORTPATRICK AND DONAGHADEE.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYsaid, that he wished to put a question on this subject to the noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty. It would be in their Lordships' recollection that on former occasions he had made various inquiries relative to the intentions of the Government with respect to perfecting the harbours of Portpatrick and Donaghadee. The efforts which he had hitherto made had been unsuccessful; but still he was persuaded that a good cause must ultimately prevail. The point which was in dispute on this subject ought to be put at rest in some way or other. The controversy had already lasted too long, and the reports which had been made were so numerous, that the Government ought to determine whether it was prudent and right to continue this packet station in a defective state, or to abandon it altogether, and to name some other quarter to accomplish the object which it had in view. He found that there had been no less than thirteen different reports on this subject. Out of these—and they were made by most able men—seven were entirely in favour of the passage between Portpatrick and Donaghadee; four were against it; and the other three were neutral. These reports all came from the most efficient officers. Now nothing whatever had been done. The station on which driblets had been expended, remained in a very defective state. Sums had merely been given to clear out the sand in the harbour, and the vessels employed were quite inedequate to the station. The harbour of Portpatrick remained unsafe, and vessels were obliged to remain off the harbour if the tide did not permit them to come in. The sum of 300,000 l. had been expended on this harbour; and the question was whether the Government would supply 30,000 l. more, and put good steamers on the station, or whether they would leave the harbour in its present state? If the Government would make the proposed improvements, employment would be given to a great number of persons in that part of Ireland. This passage was the best and the shortest that could be made from land to land. Seven or nine out of the thirteen reports stated that the wind, the tides, and the currents all combined to make it the
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most desirable station. It was quite clear if the railroad was continued from Carlisle to Dumfries, and from Dumfries to Portpatrick, that letters and the mail could be delivered by that line in Dublin in a much shorter time than by Holyhead. He would wish the noble Earl particularly to regard this point. If it were determined to take the passage to some other station, that could not be done without a large expenditure. But if that were to be done, what arrangement in the interval was to be made? He only wished for 30,000 l., which, according to Sir John Rennie's report, would put the harbour in a complete state of efficiency. He should move that Sir John Rennie's report be placed on the Table. He wanted to know on what grounds the Government refused to make this harbour efficient. If they asked the captains who made this passage, they would all say that it was the best that could be made. There were reports ranging from the year 1809 to 1843 on this subject, and therefore the Government could not say that it wanted information. Captain Evans had made a report for the purpose of some railway, and it appeared that his report was to paralyse and overturn all the former reports that had been made.
The EARL of AUCKLANDwas afraid the answer he had to give would hardly be satisfactory to the noble Marquess, though he agreed very much in what had fallen from him. It was certainly true that the harbour of Portpatrick was in a most unsatisfactory state, and the packets employed were also of an inconvenient construction. At the same time, it was impossible to introduce better packets into the harbour as it now stood; and the first question that presented itself was as to the propriety of laying out a very large sum of money on its improvement. Bad as the harbour was, and poor as the vessels employed also appeared to be, yet for very many years the service had been regularly performed. Having made inquiry into the point, he was informed that it would be necessary to expend a sum of 50,000 l. on the harbour. The question had been already under the consideration of the Post Office, and surveyors had been employed to inquire what harbours of the western coast of Scotland might be thought best fitted for the communication with Ireland, and the conveyance of correspondence. He learned that, only within the last two or three days, a report had been made to the Post Office, and through the Post Office to the

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Treasury. That report was not favourable to the maintenance of correspondence by the line between Donaghadee and Portpatrick. He (the Earl of Auckland) had been informed also that this report was likely to be submitted to him officially in a few days; and he could only promise that when it was so he would give it his best consideration, as he should also to the arguments and facts the noble Marquess had adduced. But he must beg the noble Marquess also to bear in mind, that though the Admiralty might be the executive office superintending works of this description, yet, with respect to the subjects of expenditure and public convenience, they must come mainly under the consideration of other departments. He had no objection to the report of which he spoke being laid on the Table of the House.
The MARQUESS of LONDONDERRYexpressed his satisfaction at the statement of the noble Earl.

THE LABOURING POOR (IRELAND) BILL.
On Motion that this Bill be now read 2a,
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he had no objection to granting an indemnity to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for exceeding the powers of the law; but, on constitutional principles, he thought that in any case where such an indemnity was sought for, those in whose favour it was required should show, first, that it had been absolutely necessary to break the law; and, secondly, that it had been broken for the shortest possible time. He thought an unnecessary delay had been made in the latter respect, and that Parliament should have been summoned at an earlier period.
LORD MONTEAGLEmost entirely and most cordially approved of the responsibility assumed by the Irish Government, for which they now sought an indemnity. Mr. Labouchere and the Lord Lieutenant deserved every praise for their conduct, for an interposition more called for by the circumstances of the case had certainly never occurred. With respect to the Bill immediately before the House, he thought there were some points worthy of notice in its modes of operation. The principle of calculating works by voluntary agreement between the landlords and tenantry was of a most important character; and he thought they should promote that principle, instead of leaving it to the award of a third party, as was proposed in the Bill. He prayed their Lordships to recognize agreements of
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that character by the express terms of the Act; and he proposed, therefore, to give them validity, where they had been actually made bonâ fide, by means of an Amendment in the Bill. Indeed, he would be almost disposed, not only to induce, but to compel parties in Ireland to adopt that principle; and it would be found that the works would be well executed in every case where it was carried out. Another point to which he wished to call the attention of the House, was, as he apprehended, of considerable importance. Their Lordships were aware that baronies in Ireland were divided into electoral divisions. Under Mr. Labouchere's letter, any electoral division could lay out, in reproductive works, the whole of the money assessed on it for the relief of the poor by public works, and by doing so, stood entirely discharged from any contribution to the rates of any other electoral division. In the present Bill, however, there was a power reserved to the Board of Works in Ireland to alter that arrangement; and in cases where any electoral division had assumed the whole of the charge upon it, and expended it in reproductive works, the board was enabled to put upon it, in addition to that sum, the proportion of the whole baronial charge to which it would be liable if it had not done so, and to which it had not made itself subject. That was an evil which ought to be corrected; and he thought a clause should be introduced in Committee to protect the Irish landlords from the injustice he had described.
LORD BROUGHAMobjected to the second section—the Indemnity Clause—of the Act. It went far beyond Mr. Labouchere's letter, and was so general in its terms as to indemnify the most illegal and most fraudulent acts ostensibly committed by any person under that letter. The words of the section would indemnify any person who had illegally taken away a man's property under the authority of a presentment sessions. It would be much better to amend this wide limit of indemnity.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHhad not observed the danger which the acuteness of his noble Friend had discovered in the Bill. As he was one of those who had taken on themselves the whole charges in their respective electoral divisions, he should be liable to the injustice complained of; and he, therefore, hoped the Government would see if the objections were well founded, and take some steps to protect

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him in case his noble Friend were correct in his views.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHvery willingly acquiesced in the measure before the House; but he could not think the conduct of Government deserved the very high encomiums bestowed on it by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Monteagle). The highest praise was to foresee and provide against a difficulty; next to that was the praise of successfully meeting it when it had arrived, and of taking every step to redeem their original omission. To the first the Government certainly had no claims, however they might be entitled to the second; for all that was done by Mr. Labouchere's letter on the 28th of October, might have been done by Parliament on the 26th of August, six weeks earlier. He wished to look to the future as well as to the past, and he entertained very deep anxiety on one point, which it would be most satisfactory to him if Her Majesty's Government would explain. It was intended, he believed, to close the relief works as soon as possible, and, relying on the means afforded by the Destitute Persons (Ireland) Bill, and upon public and private works, which were spoken of as being, or likely to be, in operation, to put an end to every work of that description within six weeks from the 10th of February. Now, the people hitherto employed on these works could earn money by their daily labour, and might purchase seed for their land if they chose to do so. There were at least 564,000 persons in Ireland who employed no labourers, but tilled their land by their own exertions. The whole of this class depended altogether, or to a very great extent, on the potato—money they had none. As long as the relief works continued, they could earn money wages; but so soon as they were stopped, they were left without any means of obtaining money wherewith to purchase seed for their land. They must receive food, but they were to give nothing in exchange for it. They would then be enabled to do that, which Government so properly desired they should do—cultivate their lands. But of what possible use or benefit would the tillage of their farms be, if they had no seed to put in them? He wished therefore to ask the Government what means there were of providing the people with grain, and what sources there were for enabling them to sow their land with wheat for the ensuing year?
EARL FITZWILLIAMthought the
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question asked by the noble Lord, was one of the very greatest importance. There would be no doubt great difficulties in what geologists would call "the transition state" of the people from public works to any condition of permanent employment; but the question of providing them with seed was one of far greater importance. It would be a most desirable thing if Government should not feel itself under the necessity of embarking in such a dangerous experiment as that of providing a whole people with seed; and if they could leave it, as it ought to be left, to the exertions of private individuals, and of the landowners of the country. But there was a question of still greater importance than that of the noble Earl's—a question which it would be well for their Lordships carefully and maturely to consider—and that was, whether the measures which it seemed to be the design of his noble Friend at the head of Her Majesty's Government to propose, for getting over this great calamity, were adequate to the emergency of the occasion. He begged his noble Friends in that House—he begged the Gentlemen of the other House of Parliament—to consider it. He asked the English people, and the representatives of the people, who entertained exclusively English ideas, and represented exclusively English interests, to say if the principle of economy which seemed the order of the day out of doors were well founded, and whether it was not rather a sort of prospective extravagance, and a principle which would necessarily lay the foundation for future expenditure. It was his earnest wish that the country should come to its senses on this point. He was sure they were not in their senses now, or they would act differently. They really did not understand the nature of the calamity which had fallen upon Ireland, and how it must affect them hereafter. The people of England did not comprehend the latter part of the case, because it never had been brought home to them. He thought the measures produced by Government were small measures—made indeed in the right direction, but entirely insufficient to cure the effect of this great calamity. He felt most deeply that England was taking a wrong view of the case of Ireland—that she did not understand what was going forward in that country—and that they had no proper foresight of the future calamities which would come on her if steps were not taken to remedy the present evils.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid,

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that the observations of the noble Lords who had preceded him, required a few words in reply. The noble and learned Lord who spoke first (Lord Brougham), with great candour and fairness, made some remarks on the general principle of indemnities, in which he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) entirely concurred; but, at the same time, had expressed some regret at the amount of delay which had taken place in summoning Parliament together, and in bringing forward this present Bill. He was perfectly ready to admit the general principle of his noble and learned Friend, that whenever any infraction of the law took place, it should be shown that it was absolutely necessary, more especially in the case of such a great infraction as the present undoubtedly was, and that it had lasted for as short a period as possible, as the shorter the time was, the less would be the objection. Under any ordinary circumstances it certainly would have been desirable and expedient to call Parliament together at the earliest possible period; but, as had been stated on former occasions, when similar objections were urged, when this question came to be considered by the Government, they conceived a very great inconvenience would arise by withdrawing from Ireland, to their seats in Parliament, a great number of the most intelligent, active, and influential persons who were engaged in mitigating the evils and confusion which the unexpected amount and extent of the calamity had created. He was fully prepared to take the responsibility of such a course; but, with respect to the objections of the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Brougham), he could confidently say that, when Parliament had met, not a day had been lost in stating that an indemnity would be asked from both Houses of Parliament. Ministers felt grateful for the expression of public opinion on that occasion, for no sooner was that statement made, than the utmost readiness was expressed by both branches of the Legislature to give the required indemnity. With respect to the suggestions of his noble Friend behind him (Lord Monteagle), he was ready to admit that several of them were highly important. There could be no doubt that voluntary agreements made in such a shape as rendered it evident they were sound and binding, should be considered as final. As to the question raised by the noble Lord respecting the electoral divisions, and the powers reserved by the board, he would
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wish to reserve it for consideration. The noble Earl (the Earl of Ellenborough) had said, that the Government were not entitled to the praise of foresight. He admitted that Government had not foreseen the extent of the calamity; but they shared this blindness as to the future with the rest of the community. No man had calculated on the amount of the calamity which had befallen Ireland, or on the extent of the scarcity which prevailed, and which was not confined to that particular part of the United Kingdom, but extended to other countries. The Government like-wise did not, he admitted, suppose that the ordinary course of labour in the country would have been interfered with to the extent to which it had been. The noble Earl stated that there would be great difficulty in procuring seed—a question which had again and again attracted the attention of the Government. He must say that all the accounts which the Government received, and he might add those accounts which reached him in his private relation, proved that it was impossible to exaggerate the importance of providing for the approaching harvest, and stimulating the exertions of the people. Though, as he had said, this subject had received the attention of the Government, the more his attention was directed to it, the more he was persuaded that it was impossible for the Government to undertake the providing seed for the whole country without interfering with the ordinary modes of supply; and the effect of the announcement that Government, even to a very limited extent, intended to provide seed, had at once the effect of raising the price, and in many quarters diminished the facility of obtaining that article. This was a question which must be left to individual proprietors; and though he could not say that they had the power of providing for the want to its fullest extent, yet he knew that a great number were actively, though quietly, engaged in providing a supply, if not adequate to the occasion, at least to such an extent as held out favourable prospects of the future harvest. The noble Earl expressed great apprehension as to the effect of immediately discontinuing the relief works. It was on that ground that Government, having some time back determined that it was expedient to discontinue those works, nevertheless tempered that resolution by affording employment to destitute persons up to the present period, to a limited extent, and by looking forward as the object of their proceedings

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to the discontinuance, and not the continuance of works of that description. He had hopes that, while those in great distress received relief under the present Bill, the mass of the labourers would soon be enabled to support themselves in the ordinary occupations of the country. He had stated on former occasions that he looked upon the measure authorizing advances to the landlords for the drainage and improvement of estates, as one of the most salutary and safest that could be devised. He had not the least doubt that, as the consequence of these advancements, large improvements would be undertaken; indeed he might say that at the present moment not a few of the landlords were considering how best to give effect to the intentions of the Legislature by affording the largest amount of employment. In what degree the other House might be induced to alter or extend the provisions of the measures for giving relief to Ireland, he could not state; but he must say that the disposition exhibited towards Ireland by Parliament—with the exception, perhaps, of a few individuals—had not been at all of a niggardly character. On the contrary, in Parliament and out of Parliament (he had witnessed it with a degree of pleasure which he could not express) there had been exhibited—in proportion as men's minds were satisfied as to the extent of the calamity—a strong disposition to afford every possible relief to Ireland, and to acknowledge with fairness and promptitude the great object which all parties ought to have in view under such a visitation. It was unnecessary, however, for him to remind their Lordships that the present was a question, not of money only, but of food, and that a profuse application of money, unless cautiously, and indeed slowly made, might defeat the great object in view, and by promoting a sudden and increased demand for food, aggravate existing evils.
House adjourned.