Sitting of 30 June 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Bishopric of Manchester, &c; Mussel Fisheries (Scotland); Compensation for Damages (Ireland).
Reported.—Canada Consolidated Revenue Fund.
3° and passed;—Master in Chancery; Militia Ballots Suspension; Naval Mutiny.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir J. Hobhouse, from Norwich, against Encouraging Idolatry in India.—By Mr. Wawn, from South Shields, for Abolition of the Receipt Stamp Tax.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Ipswich, and other places, for One Penny Stamp Tax on Receipts, &c.—By Mr. Wakley, from various Gentlemen, for Completion of Farringdon New Street.—By Sir J. Hobhouse, from Nottingham, in favour of Health of Towns Bill.—By Mr. Wakley, from various places, in favour of the Medical Registration and Medical Law Amendment Bill.—By Mr. Newdegate, from Relieving Officers, and others, for a Superannuation Fund for Poor Law Officers.—By Sir Charles Knightley, from Daventry (Northampton) for Alteration of the Poor Laws Administration Bill.—By Sir G. Grey, from Lincoln, for Alteration of Registration of Births, &c. Act.

NAVIGATION LAWS—INCORRECT RETURNS.
LORD G. BENTINCKsaid: A return of which some explanation had been promised, has been laid on the Table of the House by Mr. Parker, professing to be a statement of the number of ships arriving here during the suspension of the Navigation Laws. It sets forth that there have arrived in England 201 ships, measuring 15,374 tons, which would give an average of nearly seventy-five tons to each; that 103 ships, measuring 6,291 tons, giving an average of sixty-one tons to each, have arrived in Scotland; and that 234 ships, measuring 41,890 tons, have arrived in Ireland; making altogether 538 ships, measuring 63,555 tons, which are represented to have brought into this country provisions to the amount of 95,000 tons. Now, this appears to those who are best acquainted with the trade and commerce of the country a most mysterious return. They cannot conceive it possible that there can be anything like this number of foreign ships of that small burden laden with corn; and as regards the 538 foreign ships, which it is said brought over 95,000 tons of provisions,
1058
every one acquainted with the shipping interests says there are no foreign ships, except those of the United States, of a. capacity to carry so much more than they measure; and that it is impossible the return can be correct. I have an account of the foreign ships which have left the United States in the fortnight between the 22nd May and the 5th of June. It is but a fortnight, it is true; but it essentially contradicts the return. It appears that, of foreign ships, which have sailed with grain from the United States, there were eight Bremen, two Hamburgh, one French, and one Prussian; and that of these twelve ships, two only, both Bremeners, cleared for Cork; facts which make it perfectly clear that there is some radical error in the return. And though it is one which would appear to help out a case for the renewal of the suspension of the Navigation Laws, I do not think that the Government laid it before the House for that purpose. Before the noble Lord takes any step for the renewal of the suspension of the Navigation Laws, the shipping interests have a right to have this return cleared up. I, therefore, ask the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) if he has any objection to furnish returns explanatory of this return, and which will give the fullest particulars of the several vessels?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERbegged to say, that he had desired the officers of the Customs to make a return of the ships which had brought in corn by virtue of the suspension of the Navigation Laws, and which could not otherwise have done so. Now, the return was that which it purported to be, and which he believed it to be. So far as the port of London was concerned—the only one as to which inquiry could be made in the time which had elapsed since his noble Friend put his question—it was so beyond all manner of doubt: and he was perfectly able to lay on the Table a return, so far as London was concerned, stating the arrivals, number, and countries of the ships, with the quantity and description of corn imported. He found that, as far as the port of London was concerned, the result was as follows:—Ships, 136; tonnage, 8,757; quarters of corn and rice, 72,846; bags of rice, 9,160. He could only leave the House to infer that, the order having been complied with for London in the. terms in which he had given it, it had been so complied with in the other great ports throughout the empire. He had

1059
written to his right hon. Friend the Chairman of Customs on the subject, and the answer he had received was this:—"We are prepared to maintain that the ships, so far as London goes, do mean foreign ships bringing corn, which would not have brought it but for the suspension of the Navigation Laws." His right hon. Friend's inquiries could have extended no further than London in the time which had elapsed; but he had no objection to give a return extending to every port in the United Kingdom, though he hardly thought his noble Friend at the head of the Government would consent to postpone the Bill until the return was made as regarded all the ports.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, he believed the return in question was generally correct; the purpose for which it was presented, was to show generally to the House what had been the operation of the suspension of the Navigation Laws. But whatever were the case with regard to this return, he did not mean to rest the case for the second reading of the Bill to continue the suspension of the Navigation Laws on it. Even if it were true that only 500 quarters had come into our ports under the suspension now existing, he should still maintain that it was necessary to make every exertion to secure a supply of corn by suspending the Navigation Law until the 1st of March next.

RELIEF COMMITTEES (IRELAND).
SIR D. J. NORREYS, in calling the attention of the House and the Government to the Third Report of the Relief Commissioners in Ireland, delivered on the 29th instant, observed that it contained statements and allegations deeply affecting the national honour. The Commissioners alleged that although in some instances the relief committees might have discharged their duty property, yet in other cases they accused them of connivance with acts of the grossest fraud. The Commissioners alleged that
—"demands had been made in a wholesale way by these committees for rations for a greater number of destitute than there were individuals in the entire population of the district; that this had occurred in several cases, and for thousands in excess;"—that "the Government inspecting officer had found no difficulty in striking off hundreds of names that ought not to have been found on the lists, including sometimes those of servants, and men in the constant employ of persons of considerable station and property—these latter being frequently themselves members of the committees—and that in some cases, the very
1060
chairmen being magistrates, had sanctioned the issue of rations to tenants of their own of considerable holdings possessed of live stock, and who, it was found, had paid up their last half year's rent."
The Commissioners further alleged that
—"intimidation (a very common cause of abuses) had in some instances been openly encouraged by members of committees."
He heard some hon. Members below him whisper that these cases were mentioned by the Commissioners as exceptional cases only; but he appealed to any one who had read this report whether the inference to be drawn from its general tenor was not that the Irish, as a people, must be the most corrupt and degraded on the face of the earth. Why, although the Commissioners had said something about "exceptional cases," yet, in another part of their report, they expressed the following general opinion, after saying that the object of the Act might have been attained with comparative facility if the agents had entered on the undertaking with earnestness and honesty of purpose:—
"We regret, however, to report that in very many districts such is not the case, and one result from the working of the measure appears to be manifest, viz., that for a general arrangement, a trustworthy local management, in most cases, cannot be ensured for smaller limits than those of a union."
He was justified, then, in calling upon the Government to lay upon the Table of the House the evidence upon which the Commissioners had made these statements, so materially affecting the honour and character of Ireland. If the facts justified the general statement, then the truth ought to be publicly known. He sincerely hoped that the Commissioners had been misled by the statements of the agents who had been sent about in different parts of the country. He knew that in many cases young men put in authority for the first time had been so sent, and in the coxcombry of their new position had laid down their own opinions as those of the Government, and had spoken harshly of those who differed from them. The House ought to have information to enable it to separate the innocent from the guilty of those who were involved in these general accusations, and to enable those upon whom an unjust imputation rested to clear themselves. He had not brought forward this matter on the former reports of the Commissioners, because he had been assured by the Government that in future the reports should be more carefully prepared; but he now called upon the Government,

1061
as an act of common honesty and justice, to require the Commissioners to lay upon the Table of the House full extracts from their proceedings, in order that it might he seen how the Relief Act had been carried out in every electoral district in Ireland.
MR. LABOUCHEREappealed to the names of the Commissioners who had signed this report, at the head of which stood that of Sir John Burgoyne, as guarantees for the good faith of that document. The only object of the Commissioners had been to lay before the House a faithful picture of the operation of the relief works, and the manner in which the Act had been carried into effect. He could by no means admit that the statement they had made contained anything like a general or universal censure on the gentry of Ireland for the part they had acted in carrying out the measure for the relief of destitution in Ireland. It was quite true they had stated, that in not a few instances their efforts had been thwarted by the want of co-operation, and sometimes by the encouragement of gross abuses on the part of those who ought to have been the first to discountenance them; but still they were put forward as exceptional cases. He himself, while on the one hand he had always vindicated the gentry of Ireland from universal and sweeping censure, yet, on the other hand, never denied that in particular cases such abuses had prevailed. But the Commissioners had made no such sweeping condemnation. First, with respect to one of the most important functions which the gently of Ireland had to perform—that of members of finance committees—the Commissioners had borne testimony to the creditable manner in which those duties had been performed. These finance committees had been very carefully selected—they were fewer in number than the relief committees; and of them Sir John Burgoyne and his colleagues said—
"The finance committees, composed of from two to four gentlemen of each union, have, with very rare exceptions, acted with zeal and intelligence, correcting in many instances errors of system introduced by the relief committees; but they cannot always control details requiring very accurate knowledge of the circumstances of persons mid families."
That extract would show the anxiety of the Commissioners to do justice to the gentry of Ireland. They certainly went on to say, that in not a few cases the members of the relief committees, instead of co-operating with them, had thwarted
1062
them; but they were anxious also to state distinctly that so far from these cases forming the general rule, they were exceptional instances. They said—
"In enlarging on these unpleasant facts, we would beg that it may be understood that they are clearly exceptions, although sufficient in number to be deserving of notice, and to show in parts of the country a great want of the principles necessary for minute self-government."
He appealed to Irish Members themselves whether they could deny that the report contained a true and faithful representation of the state of the country. The Commissioners had certainly had to contend with these exceptional cases; but it was very far from being true that the gentry of Ireland as a body had refused their co-operation. His hon. Friend had asked for a general inquiry into the operation of all these relief committees in Ireland, with a view of ascertaining who had and who had not performed his duty; but He could not advise the House to enter upon such an inquiry, nor could he hold out the hope that Her Majesty's Government would think it consistent with their duty, or advantageous to the public service, to enter upon such an inquiry. When he considered the ill blood, the criminations and recriminations, and all the evil effects which such an inquiry must produce upon Irish society, he thought that rather than embark upon it, some portion of abuse had better be borne. He regretted his hon. Friend should have thought that any affront was conveyed to the Irish gentry by the report, and hoped that he would be satisfied with his explanation.
MR. B. OSBORNEdid not know if the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman was satisfactory to the House; but he did know that it ought not to be satisfactory to those Gentlemen representing Irish constituencies, or who held property in Ireland. In fact, the statement of the right hon. Gentleman made matters rather worse than before. The report gave the House and the country to understand that gross instances—he must call it of swindling—were the rule in Ireland, and not the exception. Why, he must admit that the report was not written with much clearness; still, after detailing these instances of swindling, it went on to state that to such instances there were exceptions. Now, if he could construe the English language at all, he must understand this to mean that swindling was the rule, and uprightness the exception. He would

1063
therefore call upon the hon. Gentleman who had brought this measure forward, to make some substantive Motion for inquiry, with a view to have the men against whom such conduct might he proved removed from the list of the magistracy. He was of opinion, however, that on investigation it would turn out that these charges were, (in many instances, exaggerated; and he must say, that the selection of inspectors had been in general unwise and injudicious. In his own district officers of the army had been appointed—men who had just arrived from India, and who had not been in this country for the last twenty years; and these men were sent down to make reports upon the state of Ireland, and to act as spies upon the country gentlemen. He said, there was a system of shameful espionage exercised in Ireland, as was shown by the evidence given before Captain Wynne's Committee; and he might also refer to the report of Captain Norris against the priests of Tipperary, which had created a great sensation among the gentry, the priests, and the peasantry of that county. He regretted, that through inadvertence the name of an officer so honourable as Sir J. Burgoyne should have been appended to a report like the present; but he hoped, at all events, the hon. Gentleman would not allow this matter to rest where it was.
MR. ROSSagreed with the other Members who had spoken, that the parties who were accused in this manner should have their names held up to the odium of England, Ireland, and Scotland. For himself, he was afraid that there was some truth in these reports. He could not believe that Sir John Burgoyne and the other hon. Commissioners would make such formal statements as these to the House of Commons, unless there were good grounds for them. There was a suspicion that jobbing prevailed to a great extent, and that justified the demand for information. He called upon the Government to give the names of those gentlemen who had put their domestic servants upon the lists for relief, or who had, for the sake of the next year's rent, put their own tenants upon the lists, although they had paid their rents and were in possession of property. Submission to these charges by the body of the Irish gentry would be a tacit admission of their guilt.
MR. BERNALspoke as an Englishman, and he felt that this matter could not be so lightly passed over as his right hon. Friend seemed to suppose. The report
1064
contained charges of a most serious nature, affecting the whole body of the landlords of Ireland, whether in the north or the south. They ought not to be subjected as a body to so sweeping and general a charges From what he knew of Sir John Burgoyne. and the other Commissioners, be was convinced that those gentlemen would never have appended their names to a report, if they were not thoroughly convinced of its truth. Was it to be supposed, after the debates which had taken place in that House, and the public odium which at various times had been heaped upon Irish gentlemen, that they could sit down contented under these sweeping accusations? He feared, from what he personally knew, that there was much truth in these allegations, and that there were parts of Ireland where the gentry did not attend as they ought to the distribution of relief. When sums were voted to so large an amount for that purpose, the names of parties who so neglected the commonest duties of morality and humanity ought to be given. The whole body of Irish proprietors ought not to be subject to a sweeping imputation, but the names of those who had done their duty should be separated from those who, by their neglect of it, justly incurred public odium.
VISCOUNT CLEMENTShad recently been in Ireland, and bore testimony to the horrors that prevailed—horrors, of which fever was among the least: the people were pining away and starving by the road side. Their common mode of asking alms now was, "For God's sake do something for me, or I shall be found dead to-morrow." Looking at these horrors, he regarded the report of the Commissioners with some degree of charity. He did not lay the blame either upon them or upon the gentry, but upon the Government. In February last he had done all in his power to prevent the formation of this commission, and against passing such a Bill without defining what destitution was. He had contended to the utmost against the unfairness and injustice of leaving the responsibility of such a definition with the local authorities. There was now quite a scramble for relief. The Government had been guilty of a gross dereliction of duty, and ought to be condemned for that act. Then who were the Commissioners? With the single exception of Sir John Burgoyne, whose name could never he mentioned either in or out of that House without the highest respect, all the rest had ample employment for their

1065
time, without having the duties of such a commission entailed upon them. There was Mr. Redington, the Under Secretary—had he not enough to do? Next came Sir Randolph Routh, the head of the Commissariat—was not his time sufficiently employed? Colonel Jones, the head of the Board of Works—had he not enough upon his shoulders already? Mr. Twisleton, the Poor Law Commissioner—were not his duties sufficient to occupy his time? Last of all, came the head of the Constabulary—that olla podrida, mixing itself up with every matter in Ireland—he had surely enough to do in receiving underhanded reports from those who acted as spies, not only upon the gentry but upon the magistrates of Ireland. Although abuses might have existed to a great extent, the blame did not rest so much with the gentry as with the law.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, that his noble Friend had thought fit to throw an imputation upon Colonel M'Gregor, with respect to his conduct, not as a Relief Commissioner, but as the head of police in Ireland. All he (Mr. Labouchere) could say was, that whenever his noble Friend should think proper to bring forward any charges against that distinguished person, he (Mr. Labouchere) should be ready to meet them. He believed, from communications he had had with persons of all classes, that his noble Friend would standalone in his opinion of the manner in which the police force of Ireland was managed.
MR. AGLIONBYprotested against the censure cast upon the Government by the noble Lord: in circumstances of unparalleled difficulty and danger they had taken every step which could be expected. He did not, however, concur in the view taken by the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, and thought that when the character of a body of gentlemen was so seriously implicated, an inquiry ought to be instituted. Such an inquiry would rather tend to allay than to excite irritation; and it was most unjust that innocent persons should rest under an imputation, which, as it stood, affected the whole body. The guilty ought to be punished, and the country should know whether the allegations of the Commissioners were well founded.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I hog the House to consider for a short time what are the facts of this case. A body of Commissioners are appointed, with Sir John Burgoyne at their head, to whose merits every one will bear willing testimony—who
1066
have had imposed upon them a most arduous duty. They report that they are in superintendence of a system of relief which involves the distribution of upwards of two millions of rations daily, and that they have under them no fewer than 1,677 electoral divisions employed in giving that relief. And now let us consider whether those gentlemen, thus employed under the authority of an Act of this House, may not in the first instance feel it due to the Government and to the Parliament to state what are the obstacles which they have had to encounter in the performance of their duty. Having seen a great number of the reports which have been made to them, I am bound to say that I think their conduct has been most admirable, and that the obstacles which were thrown in their way after the first passing of the Act, by the apathy which was shown in many instances, and latterly by instances of something worse than apathy, are such, that they, the Commissioners, deserve very great credit indeed for the struggle they made to establish an efficient and systematic plan of relief, having to contend against such serious difficulties. I think it was duo in the first instance to truth, and in the next to Parliament, which had made such large and extraordinary provisions for the relief of the destitute, that they should plainly state whether the system which the Legislature had devised had been carried fairly into operation by the local boards under their superintendence. Do they (as the hon. Member for Weymouth and other hon. Gentlemen erroneously suppose them to do) state that the whole body of the landholders of Ireland, or that, generally speaking, the great bulk of those entrusted with the administration of relief, have abused that trust, or employed that relief in affording food to those who do not want it, or are not entitled to it—to their own tenants, servants, dependants, and retainers? Far from it. They have stated that in the 1,677 electoral divisions, several instances of abuse and perversion have occurred. Now, I am at a loss to think by what process of language you can maintain that "several" means the whole body, or even designates the generality of them. But not only do they use the word "several;" but, after stating the abuses which have occurred, they expressly declare that such cases are exceptions. They specially point to that fact, and clearly indicate their opinion that neither the whole body of landholders, nor

1067
even the generality of them, are obnoxious to censure. With regard to the finance committees, their praise is general, and without exception; but, judging both from the character of those gentlemen—from the unwillingness they have to give light credence to accusations—and from various reports which I have seen, I say that, relying on those authorities, I do most assuredly believe that there have been several instances of gross abuses; and while the House is given to understand that the system generally is going on beneficially, and that the Commissioners are satisfied that starvation has been prevented, or that at least the cases of starvation are now much rarer than they used to be, I think it is only just that the House should also have information that there are instances of abuses which have been obstacles in the way of making the Act universally beneficial. But then, some more hon. Members venture to say, if there be some instances of abuse, why not institute a general inquiry? I think my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Ireland was fully justified in saying that such a remedy would be worse than the evil to be contended with. The hon. Member for Cockermouth, who is at the head of the Clare committee, would not surely, after the experience he has had, propose a general inquiry extending over the whole of Ireland, to ascertain who have behaved well, and have attended sedulously on committees, distinguishing them from those who have neglected their duty, exhibited apathy, and been guilty of perverting the law unworthily. I do not think that from such an inquiry any good consequences could possibly result. It would be merely productive of ill-will and ill-blood, which would occasion more general confusion, and give rise to various counter-statements, in the midst of which it would be exceedingly difficult to ascertain the truth in particular cases. [Sir D. NORREYS did not desire a general inquiry. He wished the extracts from the local reports which justified the representation of the general report, to be laid upon the Table.] If those reports were produced in each instance, there would of course be complaints from the persons whose characters were impugned. They would ask for investigations in their respective cases; and it would necessarily follow that inquiry on an extensive scale should be instituted in every instance thus quoted—a proceeding which I cannot but think would be attended with very serious
1068
inconvenience. The hon. Member for Cockermouth is aware that thirty-two days have already been consumed in investigating one single case; and it is not difficult to foretell what the consequence would be, if a number of such inquiries were to proceed simultaneously, amidst all the confusion and contention of contradictory statements. There is one part of the report, however, in respect of which the Executive Government may fairly call for explanation, namely, that which conveys the charge that certain chairmen of committees, who are justices of the peace, have connived at the malappropriation of the public funds. The general question of the conduct of landholders and tenants is one on which I think it is impossible that we should enter; but in cases where a report is made to the Commissioners affecting any magistrate, I certainly do think it would be well not to lay any report at once before the House, but to send an extract from it to the magistrate concerned, with a view to further inquiry, and ulterior proceedings in the event of his answer not being satisfactory. Such a course would, I have no doubt, be highly advisable; but I cannot bring myself to think that a general inquiry, such as has been advocated by some hon. Gentlemen, would be equally advantageous. I protest against the idea that because some of the Irish landlords have been attacked, the entire body are entitled to call for an inquiry. I cannot agree, therefore, to any proposition involving a general investigation; but I am quite content that the conduct of those who are in the service of Her Majesty should be made matter of reference on the part of the Government, and, if necessary, of further proceeding. As for the speech of the noble Lord the Member for Leitrim, I am sure it must have satisfied the House how difficult it is to apply any measure of relief, either temporary or permanent, to Ireland. We passed a law for the relief of the destitute, and the noble Lord has felt himself justified in characterizing the measure as "a scramble" Because we stated that its object was merely to afford relief to the destitute, the noble Lord is of opinion that the measure may fairly be regarded as "a scramble"
VISCOUNT CLEMENTSexplained: He used the word" scramble" because there was no definition of destitution in the Act. The Commissioners themselves seemed to be quite undecided on the point; for in one circular they declared that men in the

1069
possession of land might nevertheless be regarded as destitute, whereas in another they stated that the cases of applicants who were rated above 61. were simply deserving the consideration of the Committee. In the one instance they acknowledged the claim of poor persons even though they might he in possession of land, whereas in the other they merely made it a subject for consideration.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I do not think that the noble Lord has mended his case by the explanation he has given; for how was it possible for the Legislature to define by exact circumstances who are destitute and who are not? Before all boards of guardians and all parish authorities, the allegation of destitution by an applicant for relief must necessarily be matter of inquiry; and any definition of destitution restricted by the possession of a cow, a horse, a table, or a chair, must clearly be idle and futile. It appears to me that the two circulars to which the noble Lord has alluded as having been issued by the Commissioners were perfectly proper, and perfectly consistent one with the other. In the first letter they argued thus—"This is a temporary measure, and we will not make it the means of general ejectment. We will not, therefore, say, that no man having land shall be entitled to relief" In the second letter they gave instructions that inquiries should be made as to the destitution of applicants, and that if a man were rated at 61., or in possession of six acres, the fact should be regarded as a presumption that he was not destitute, and to such a one they ordered that relief should not be given unless special circumstances could be proved to show that he was absolutely in need of it. The difficulty of interpretation which the noble Lord has encountered in the Act, and his warm, though I have no doubt very honest, objection to all those Commissioners, show how difficult it is for any body of public officers to administer such a measure fairly towards all classes, or in such a manner as to give general satisfaction. All the Commissioners, Colonel Jones included, are, in my opinion, worthy of praise rather than of censure; and the opinion is one in which I believe the other Members of the Government entirely concur.
VISCOUNT CLEMENTSexplained that he had not intended to cast censure on the Commissioners. What he contended for was, that the gentlemen who acted as
1070
Commissioners had already quite enough to do in the respective departments with which they were connected, without undertaking the onerous duties which devolved upon them under the Relief Act.
MR. GEORGE A. HAMILTONwas not at all disposed to complain that the Relief Commissioners—if cases such as those which formed the subject of the discussion were brought before them—should have adverted to them in their report. The Commissioners were honourable men—they were placed in a very difficult situation—and he was sure that in noticing such acts of maladministration, they must have been discharging what they must have felt to be a most painful duty. But at the same time he had no hesitation in saying that, assuming the facts to be proved before them, it was their duty to themselves and the public not to pass them over unnoticed. But he thought they had not gone far enough—he thought it would have been a better and more manly course, and more just as regarded the gentry of Ireland and the members of relief committees, that the names of the relief committees, and even of the individuals who were guilty of such abuses, should have been mentioned in the report. Now the House could not wonder if the gentry of Ireland were sensitive on those matters. The House should recollect how frequently and how unjustly the most sweeping charges were made against the whole body of Irish gentry by some hon. Members during the present Session. If, therefore, there were a few cases, such as those mentioned in the report, it was only fair to the great body of the gentry that those cases should be distinctly named. He, for one, was therefore quite ready to support any proposition, not for a general inquiry, but for a more detailed statement of the instances in which such gross malversation had taken place.
SIR R. FERGUSONfound it very difficult to reconcile the representations contained in the report of the Commissioners with a letter of Sir John Burgoyne's, dated the 29th of May, in which it was stated that there was a general anxiety on the part of the Irish gentry to save expense, and to administer the Relief Act in as exemplary a manner as possible. He certainly thought it highly desirable that the House should be put in possession of the data on which the circulars which the Commissioners had issued were founded, and that the names of those who had been

1071
guilty of discreditable proceedings should be shown up.
MR. BORTHWICKthought the names of the parties aimed at should be specified, the localities mentioned, and the acts complained of distinctly set forth. It had been his fortune to be a member of the Committee already referred to, which had sat for thirty-two days; and although it would be irregular in him to refer to the conclusion at which it had arrived, still he might say that when the report was laid upon the Table, it would be seen that while the aristocracy and landlords of Ireland were placed in circumstances of extreme difficulty, the officers employed in carrying-out the Government measures had also great difficulties to contend with and overcome. He could assure the noble Lord, that nothing could be more difficult than to express in words who were to be considered destitute, and who not. Indeed, it was impossible to give any such definition; and the gentlemen who were employed in administering the relief, must have felt the greatest difficulty in making a selection, from their ignorance of local circumstances. It was not at all uncommon to find a man in the possession of twenty acres of land in the most pitiable state of destitution; and yet it was impossible for him at the moment to give up his holding. To allow such charges as had been specified to remain, without affording the parties implicated the means of rebutting them, would be unworthy of the Government and of the House.
Subject dropped.

MINES AND COLLIERIES BILL.
On the Order of the Day having been read for the Second Reading of the Mines and Collieries Bill,
SIR GEORGE GREYexpressed a hope that the hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill would not press it to a second reading at this advanced period of the Session. There could be no doubt but that the question with which it professed to deal was one of very great importance, namely, the prevention, as far as possible, of accidents by explosion and otherwise in mines and collieries. The matter had engaged and was still engaging the serious attention of Government, and they had under their consideration the reports of various scientific and practical men suggesting precautions. Whether those precautions would be available or not, he could not then say; but it was at least
1072
certain that they should command the most attentive consideration of the Government. The period of the Session, however, was too far advanced to render it possible that the Bill should now receive that mature deliberation which its importance required; and as many influential gentlemen connected with the mines and collieries in the north of England had left town, under the impression that the Bill would be merely presented, and not gone into that Session, he trusted that the hon. Member would not, under present circumstances, press it to a division. He should not like to vote against the second reading of the Bill, but should very much prefer that the hon. Member should permit it to stand over until next Session, when there would be ample opportunity for the discussion of its details.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEwas very anxious that the Bill should be read a second time, even if it should proceed no further, for it was one in which a very large and influential body of gentlemen in this country took great interest, and one in which the welfare of the mining population was vitally involved. Many accidents, and those of the most serious character, were constantly taking place; and he was anxious that the House, by giving the Bill a second reading, should at least affirm the principle that the time had fully arrived when some interference on the part of the Legislature, to prevent the occurrence of such deplorable calamities, by means of ventilation and other measures, was imperatively called for. In very many instances the dreadful accidents which were of daily occurrence in our mines and collieries arose from neglect, and might have been prevented had a proper system of inspection and supervision been instituted on the part of the Government. In attestation of the truth of this assertion, he might refer to the statements contained in petitions which he had himself presented from persons engaged in mines and collieries, and also to the reports of the Government Commissioners themselves, who had been sent down to make inquiries respecting the origin of accidents in mines. Those statements made it quite evident that the time had come when the matter was ripe for legislative interference. The petitioners to whom he had alluded had repeatedly declared to that House their conviction that the explosions which were continually taking place, and by which so many human lives were sacrificed, might be prevented by proper care on the part of

1073
the coalowners, and by a proper system of inspection on the part of the Government. They even went so far as to assort, with reference to the accidents which were constantly occurring in the mines and collieries of Lancashire, Wales, and Staffordshire, that not more than one out of every fifty was unavoidable. It was clear, however, that the coalowners would not do anything with the view to ventilation or any other improvement, except under the pressure of Government interference. They would not use safety lamps unless the Legislature were to make it compulsory on them. Besides, it was well known that the grossest impositions were practised upon the men, by a system of making them work by measure instead of weight; and this was particularly the case in Staffordshire and Lancashire. The Acts which had been framed to supersede the payment of wages at a public-house had been evaded by putting the men in classes, and paying them by a money order, which they would only get changed at the public-house; and by each man paying a certain sum for beer, as the charge for changing the money order. He could see no reason why an adequate protection should not be afforded to the labourers in mines as well as to the labourers in factories. The mining population of this country numbered between four and five hundred thousand souls; and this being so, it could not be said that they were so numerically insignificant as to be unworthy the consideration of the Legislature. Five hundred accidents per year occurred on an average in the mines and collieries; and it was not without some feeling of remorse that that House should reflect that if proper precautions were adopted, by far the greater portion of those calamities would never have taken place. He hoped the House and the Government would allow this Bill to be read, at all events, a second time. They would disappoint a very meritorious and large portion of the population of the country if they did not consent to that proposition. He wished that by that step they would recognise the principle that legislative interference was necessary for the better regulation of mines and the better protection of the lives of persons engaged therein.
COLONEL SIBTHORPregretted that the hon. Gentleman had not thought it necessary (whatever the Government might think, and whatever opposition might be given) to carry his measure through every stage. It was the duty of Government
1074
not to allow this Parliament to be dissolved without doing that which was the primary duty of all Governments—provide for the security of those whom they were sent to that House to protect. [Mr. DUNCOMBE: I intend to persevere with the measure.] He thanked the hon. Gentleman for that declaration, and promised him his support from day to day and from night to night. He had misunderstood the hon. Gentleman, for he thought he had merely moved the second reading of the Bill with a view to establish the principle contained in it.
MR. LIDDELLfelt called upon by a sense of duty to move that the Bill be read a second time that day six mouths. He was not less anxious than the hon. Member for Finsbury to adopt measures that would prevent accidents in mines and collieries; but he wished that measures for that purpose should be introduced by responsible authority. This Bill of the hon. Member's was one of the most ridiculous in its provisions that it had ever been his fortune to witness; and it required no great discernment to see that the hon. Member had made the accidents that might happen in mines and collieries the peg on which to hang measures for the furtherance of other objects. The Bill provided that three inspectors should have the power of superintending the working of mines and collieries in England; to examine, inquire, and report, and to exercise a very extensive authority. Now, there were three great coal fields in England—the Northumberland and Durham, the Staffordshire and part of Yorkshire, and the Welsh coalfields: and there were, besides, the extensive coal-fields of Scotland. If Scotland was to be taken into consideration, one of these districts would require to be a supernumerary one. He was unprovided with documents, and could not, therefore, say at that moment what was the number of mines and collieries in England; but he believed that in Northumberland and Durham alone there were between two and three hundred. Could it be expected that one gentleman could pay that attention to this district which was contemplated by the Bill? The other portions of the Bill were equally defective. He thought a Select Committee should be appointed on the subject; and, when they had heard the evidence of scientific and practical men, the Government might bring in a Bill calculated to be of real utility. He would move as an Amendment that the

1075
Bill be read a second time that day three months.
MR. BERNALsaid, that if there was any absurdity in the Bill, as the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had stated, it could be remedied in Committee. He did not think that the number of inspectors appointed should form the main feature in the consideration of the measure. The Bill was intended to give protection to the lives, limbs, and fortunes of those who were engaged in these mines and collieries; and he thought that an attempt to remove the causes of those accidents, which were of such frequent occurrence in these places, was deserving of their best attention. He did not, think, however, that it would be of any use in his hon. Friend to press on the Bill to a Committee this Session; but his hon. Friend had acted rightly in bringing it before the House, as it would attract public attention to the subject, and be the means of getting a measure passed with reference to these evils in a future Parliament. He would vote for the second reading.
SIR G. GREYsaid, the Government were fully alive to the importance of the subject; but he did not think it right that they should sanction so sweeping a measure without the most careful consideration, and the most mature reflection. He had stated distinctly that the subject was one which demanded the attention of the Government and of the Legislature; and he begged the House to suspend its decision on the Bill at present.
MR. B. DENISONwas not opposed to the principles of the Bill; but wished the hon. Member for Finsbury to adopt the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary, and withdraw the Bill for the present.
LORD H. VANEconcurred in that suggestion; for, by those means, time would be given for more mature consideration and more deliberate inquiry; and he believed his hon. Friend would exercise a wise discretion in adopting it.
MR. WAKLEYsaid, the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary had sanctioned the principle of the Bill; and surely he would vote as he had spoken? If some of the provisions were so objectionable, let those be struck out, and let the rest of the Bill be passed. He had always observed, that whenever a question was brought before the House affecting the interests of the working classes, it was staved off as long as it could be. Somebody, somewhere,
1076
would some day do something; but that somebody never was found, the time never arrived, and the something never was done. Why, if a noble Lord had been blown out of a coal mine, there would have been legislation on the subject the very next day the Parliament was assembled. It was notorious that these accidents happened from the grossest negligence—all that was required to prevent them was efficient ventilation. Was there anything unreasonable in asking that it might be provided for? When they looked back upon the awful calamities which occurred in the coal mines last year, ought they to hesitate in adopting the course which the principles of humanity dictated? They were told there was not time in the present Session. What were they there for? Was there any absolute necessity for the Session to close on a particular day? Considering the number of petitions that had been presented on this subject, he thought his hon. Friend had only performed a public duty in bringing it forward, and that he was bound to persevere with it.
MR. NEWDEGATEthought the subject was too important to be disposed of at the close of the Session, when there was not time to discuss it properly; and he concurred with the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary in the propriety of withdrawing it for the present.
MR. AGLIONBYobserved, that although his name appeared at the back of the Bill, he was not responsible for its errors; neither could he lay claims to the very many excellent provisions which it contained. He was inclined to view the present question in a practical manner, and not in the shape of a political triumph; and, as the principle of the Bill was universally admitted to be a good one, he did not think his hon. Friend could gain anything by pressing it to a division. He recommended the hon. Gentleman to take example by the course which his hon. Colleague had adopted with reference to another measure, and withdraw the Bill at present, in order to afford the Government an opportunity of considering the subject.
MR. P. HOWARDalso conceived that the hon. Member for Finsbury was entitled to the gratitude of his country for bringing forward that measure, one result of which, he trusted, would be that the owners of collieries would put, if not their houses, at least their mines in order. He was glad to see that those interested in mines assented to the leading principle of the Bill,

1077
so far as regarded the inspection; and hoped the Government would take up a measure which concerned so large a portion of the loyal subjects of the Queen.
MR. FORSTERobserved, that nineteen out of twenty accidents that occurred were imputable to the carelessness of the men themselves, and did not arise from any causes which it was in the power of the coalowners to remove. He had looked over the Bill, and did not perceive a single clause directed against the notorious carelessness of persons employed in mines and collieries. It should he remembered, that when accidents occurred, they often occasioned the owners of mines losses that amounted to several thousand pounds. Surely such losses must produce more effect upon their minds than any 100 l. penalties that a Bill of that kind might inflict. In his opinion, there ought to he no legislation on this subject without the report of a Committee.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, that if the right hon. Baronet opposite would give a pledge that the Government themselves would proceed with some such measure, he ventured to hope that his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury might for the present be induced to drop his Bill. As to what had been said about the necessity of previous investigation by a Committee, that was perfectly absurd. When ninety-seven persons wore well known to have been blown up at once, where was the necessity for a Committee?
SIR G. GREYcould not give any distinct pledge upon the subject. He could undertake to say that the serious consideration of the Government should be given to it during the recess.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEsaid, that what he complained of, and what almost induced him to persevere in taking the sense of the House on the second reading, was the manner in which it had been met by Gentlemen representing coalowners. Much difficulty had at times been found in dealing with cotton lords regarding employment in factories; but he was not sure that the difficulty was not greater in dealing with coal kings or kings' coal, old and young. He hoped that in the approaching Session, Parliament would not refuse to legislate upon this important subject, and that some protection would be given to those engaged in the arduous and dangerous duty of raising coals. He was quite willing to leave the matter in the hands of the right hon. Baronet; and on the present
1078
occasion would not give the House the trouble of dividing.
Bill withdrawn.

LUNATICS' BILL.
MR. T. DUNCOMBE MR. T. DUNCOMBE moved the Second Reading of the Lunatics' Bill.
SIR G. GREYcould not agree to the principle of this Bill however it might be modified. It placed lunatics under the superintendence of the bishops and clergy; and he did not think that they had any peculiar qualifications for the duty.
MR. T. DUNCOMBEconsidered this objection extraordinary, especially coming from a Government which was about to appoint four new bishops, who could hardly be better employed than in looking into the abuses of lunatic asylums. A power was given by the Bill to the bishops only when the magistrates neglected their duty. His principal object was to give liberty to individuals unjustly confined on charges of insanity, and the Commissioners had reported that such cases were not unfrequent. He was afraid, under the circumstances, that it was hopeless now to persevere; but he should keep his eye upon the subject, and reserve himself for a more favourable moment in another Session.
Mr. WAKLEYapplauded the discretion of his hon. Colleague in withdrawing such an extraordinary measure. He wondered where his hon. Friend got it, or who had advised that lunatics should be placed under the care of the bishops and clergy. Such a course would be as disagreeable to the bishops as it would be unfortunate for the patients. It seemed to him that in cases of religious lunacy, and they were most frequent, there could not be a more dangerous or unwelcome visitor than a clergyman. He admitted that some change of the law was still wanted; and one regulation he strongly recommended was, that laymen should not have the power to interfere with lunatic asylums—the entire inspection and management of them ought to be in the hand of medical practitioners. He agreed with those who thought that, on principle, private lunatic asylums were objectionable, He should like to see them completely abolished, and a more open system adopted for the cure, comfort, and security of patients. Whatever might be done hereafter, he hoped that the present Bill would never be reintroduced, since it was not, in any respect, calculated to accomplish the end in view.

THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
LORD GEORGE BENTINCKsaid: I wish to ask a question of the noble Lord on a subject of great interest to every man in the country—I mean the Wellington memorial. I wish to know whether the noble Lord and the rest of Her Majesty's Ministers have not the strongest reason for knowing that the removal of the statue from the arch at Hyde Park Corner, and the retraction of the permission which Her Majesty had graciously been pleased to give for its being placed there, would be in the highest degree offensive, if not an indignity to the illustrious Person whose immortal military deeds it was intended to commemorate.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: I certainly received some information on this subject from a gentleman who called upon me in Downing Street. He informed me that the Duke of Wellington had expressed by letter an opinion that the removal of the statue would be considered by others as being injurious to his reputation, or words somewhat to that effect. This letter was written a long time ago; I believe in the month of February. Since that time Her Majesty had been graciously pleased to order not only that a more fitting pedestal should be erected for the statue, if the House would give funds for that purpose; also, if the House would grant a vote of money, it was intended to ornament it with military trophies, as was formerly the case with triumphant arches, in commemoration of the deeds of the Duke of Wellington. Under these circumstances, it could not be supposed that the Duke of Wellington could any longer entertain such feelings on the matter as had been alluded to.
LORD GEORGE BENTINCK: I wish to know from the noble Lord whether he has not seen under the handwriting of the illustrious Person, since the notice on the subject had been given to the House, a paper conveying the information to which I have before referred. Although I know the letter was written at an early period of the Session, I have reason to believe the feeling remains unchanged on the part of the illustrious Duke.
LORD J. RUSSELL: Since the intimation for a new pedestal for the statue has been given by my noble Friend the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests, I have received no information as to the feeling of the Duke of Wellington on the subject; and in fact, I do not believe the feeling of the noble Duke is such as the noble
1080
Lord has stated. It is, however, in the power of any one to ask the Duke of Wellington what his feeling is on the subject. I believe the Duke of Wellington will be fully satisfied with what Her Majesty and the Parliament shall think most fitting to be done in honour of the illustrious hero.
MR. WAKLEY: Since I necessarily mix much in public, I think I know what the public feeling is with regard to this statue. I believe the public feeling to be that the statue should remain where it is. From what I have heard, I have no doubt on the subject; and I believe the feeling is almost universal in the way which I describe. Such, I am satisfied, is the case, although I know the position of the statue is offensive to some. But if it be true that the Duke of Wellington, in honour of whom this statue has been erected, entertains objections against the removal of the statue, nothing could be more offensive to the public feeling than for the Government to ask for a sum of money to defray the charge of its removal. To let it remain where it is, if such feeling exists on the part of the illustrious Person in whose honour it is intended, must, I should have thought, have been conclusive in the minds of all parties. I am sure, in what I have said, I have only expressed the feelings of all classes of the community.
MR. HUMEentirely concurred in what had fallen from his hon. Friend. He was formerly against placing the statue on the arch; but after what had taken place, and as it was now there, he hoped it would long remain there. He believed there was a strong opinion out of doors against its removal.
MR. NEWDEGATEhoped, after the expression of feeling on the part of the two hon. Members who were not associated in political feeling with his Grace, that the suggestion of the noble Lord would not be adopted, and that his Grace would not be questioned on the subject. Such was the feeling of loyalty on the part of that illustrious man, that he was sure no wish of Her Majesty would be objected to by him, however repulsive to his own feelings. The feeling of every class of society was most strong that this statue should not be removed.
House adjourned at Six o'clock.