Sitting of 4 June 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Destitute Persona (Ireland, No. 2).
2° Lincoln's Inn Rating; Prisoners Removal (Ireland).
Reported, — Burgh Police (Scotland); Trust Money Investment (Ireland).
3° and passed:—Loan Discount; Quakers' and Jews' Marriages.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Rendlesham, from Suffolk, in favour of the Health of Towns Bill.—By Mr. Acland, from Taunton, and Mr. O. Gore, from Medical Men of Wem, in favour of the Medical Registration and Medical Law Amedment Bill.—By Mr. Baillie, from Linlithgow, and Mr. G. Craig, from Edinburgh, against the Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. William Baillie, from County of Linlithgow, for Postponement of Registering Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill, and Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Alderman Copeland, from several persons residing in the neighbourhood of Smithfield, against the Removal of the Cattle Market.

CASE OF MARY DAWSON.
On the question that the House at its rising do adjourn to Monday,
MR. FERRANDrose to make some inquiries of the Home Secretary, in reference to the case of Mary Dawson, who had been imprisoned in the Wakefield House of Correction, and placed upon the treadmill, without having committed any offence or breach of the law. The hon. Member inquired what steps the Home Secretary had taken to obtain her release from prison? whether he intended to adopt any further proceedings in the case? and whether he had any objection to lay on the Table the correspondence between the Home Office and the committing magistrates?
SIR G. GREYhad obtained from the magistrates a copy of the warrant of commitment, and was advised on examination of it that it was an illegal commitment, on the ground of the magistrates having proceeded under one Act of Parliament, when they ought to have proceeded under another, as applicable to the charge. In regard to the merits of the case, he had no information whatever, and was not at all prepared to say that this person had committed no offence; she had been discharged solely on the ground that the commitment was under the 17th George III., c. 56, when it ought (assuming the charge to be proved) to have been under the 6th and 7th Victoria, c. 40.

PORTUGAL
MR. HUMEinquired whether the promised papers would be laid on the Table in sufficient time to enable him to bring forward on Monday his Motion respecting the armed interference of this Government between political parties in Portugal?
LORD J. RUSSELLanswered, that the papers would be on the Table on Monday evening. He proposed that the House should go into Committee of Supply on Friday, and then the hon. Member might make his Motion.
MR. HUMEmust move it on Monday, the circumstances not allowing of any further delay.
SIR D. L. EVANShoped the hon. Member would postpone his Motion to Friday. This was surely a subject of too great importance to be discussed without the fullest information that could be had.
MR. B. OSBORNE: They must be aware that a collision had already taken place between the British naval forces and the forces of the Junta of Oporto. His opinion was very strong in reference to the question; and if the hon. Member for Montrose did not press forward his Motion, he should take the earliest opportunity of bringing the subject under the notice of the House, because he conceived that the lives and liberties of men were not to be put in jeopardy on account of mere points of form. It was well observed the other night, by an hon. Gentleman opposite, that if there were an advantage to any party in discussing the subject without the papers being first produced, that advantage was entirely on the side of the Government.
MR. BORTHWICKwas of opinion that the hon. Member for Montrose had already made out a sufficient case why the House should not postpone the consideration of this very important question beyond Monday. The noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs informed the House last night, that he thought it probable the papers would be laid upon the Table to-night, and that they might be in the possession of hon. Members on Monday morning; and the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) advised the hon. Gentleman to wait until this evening, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the papers would be laid upon the Table. He had now risen to call attention to the circumstances of the case, as connected with the question, of precedent. Heretofore, when we had interfered in the affairs of a Foreign Power, it had been the
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custom of the Minister to come down and obtain the assent of Parliament before taking those active steps which were now being taken in the Tagus. In 1826, Mr. Canning came down and read at the bar of the House a Message from the Crown, in which it was stated that the Crown of England had received urgent representations from the Princess Regent of Portugal, to the effect that an interference had taken place, or was about to take place, on the part of Spain. This communication was made to the House on the 11th of December, and Mr. Canning apologized for not making it earlier, he having received his information on the Friday preceding. Now, in that case, almost the first thing the Minister did, was to ask the assent of Parliament to the measures which the Crown proposed; and then, with the constitutional weight of that assent in his support, he proceeded to interfere, with the success which all Europe was witness to, and received the benefit of, at the time. In the present instance he did not see why any delay, even of one day, should have taken place. Unhappily, the House were too well acquainted with the facts of the case, though, as he said last night, he did not wish to prejudge its merits. The other evening, the First Lord of the Treasury (Lord J. Russell) informed the House that some overtures had been made to the Queen of Portugal, as he understood him, on the part of other Foreign Powers. Now, if the noble Lord alluded to overtures from Spain, which were too well known, proposing to make an aggression on the people of Portugal, who, one and all, asserted their right to breathe the air of their native land, and to hold their own opinions against a Government which had, by its acts as well as words, invaded their liberties to the extent of visiting with the punishment of death the holding of political opinions—if the statements that had been made public to all Europe were correct, then he said that the time was come when the British Parliament should be fully informed where for the ships of war of Her Britannic Majesty had opened a fire upon the ships of the Junta; and where for the British residents within Oporto were in such imminent danger of their lives as they were at this moment. The hon. and gallant Member for Westminster had said, they wanted to debate the question in ignorance. But the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs was capable of informing the House of all the broad facts of

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the case. He certainly should like to know how it was that the Queen of England, the representative of European liberty, could have anything in common with the Queen of Portugal, the representative of European despotism, for he could not conceive it. He did not usually take part with insurrection; hut when the whole body, almost without exception, of a people complained of aggressions on their liberty by the Crown, and when the Crown peremptorily refused, save upon compulsion, even to take their complaints into consideration, it then became a question with the Government of Great Britain, whether they ought not to take part with the people of Portugal rather than with their oppressor.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I could agree in one observation of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, and that is, that the House ought to be fully informed of the grounds on which Her Majesty's Government have acted. But, if so much impatience be displayed for an immediate discussion, it might he supposed that the hon. Gentlemen who profess their anxiety on the subject, wish the House to consider the question without being fully informed. It is for the purpose of putting the House in full possession of information, and for that purpose alone, that we ask the delay of a few days. Every possible exertion will be made to lay the papers on the Table of that House. I should hope that they will be ready on Monday morning; but undoubtedly on Monday evening I expect they will be in the course of delivery. I am not disposed, even considering the manner in which the hon. Gentleman has spoken, to follow him into the subject. But I will say I am convinced, when the papers are produced and we have stated our case, that the House will see it is not as the hon. Gentleman assumes, a case of assisting to establish a despotic Government in Portugal; but it will appear that the effect and consequence of our intervention will be to secure to the Portuguese people the full enjoyment of the liberties which were guaranteed to them by the charter of Don Pedro and the Portuguese constitution.
LORD J. MANNERSsaid, the wish of hon. Gentleman was not to debate the question before the House was fully informed upon it, but that the debate should take place while it was possible that some practicable object could be obtained by it. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Mr. Osborne) had told them of rumours having
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reached town that a collision, or attempt at collision, had occurred between Her Majesty's fleet and a portion of the fleet of the Junta of Oporto; and there was no doubt that if orders had been sent out for immediate hostile interference on the part of England, the forces of the Junta must succumb to our superior forces; and it was because hon. Gentlemen were anxious that the cause of the Portuguese people should not be irremediably ruined before the papers were laid on the Table of the House, that they wished there should be no delay in coming to the discussion.
LORD H. VANEsaid, even if the discussion took place immediately, any decision of the House could not prevent those acts of interference taking place which were intended, and which, according to the statement of the hon. Member for Wycombe, had been already begun. He would, therefore, suggest to the hon. Member (Mr. Hume), that he would allow the discussion to take place on Thursday next. It would be impossible to take it on Monday; and, from what he (Lord H. Vane) could gather from the hon. Gentleman, he was willing the discussion should be postponed to Thursday, which was the earliest day after the production of the papers that the discussion should be taken with advantage.
MR. HUMEthought it desirable to obtain a vote on the question in the shape of a substantive Motion. Thursday was the first day on which he could bring it forward as a substantive Motion. If it were taken on Supply, or as an Amendment, the result would be left indeterminate; but he wished a fair and proper discussion on the subject, and would be perfectly content if, on Thursday, he were allowed to propose first in order his Motion as a substantive Motion.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I fixed Friday, because my hon. Friend intimated, on a former occasion, that he wished to raise the discussion on a day selected for going into Committee of Supply. But if he prefer bringing forward his proposition for discussion as a substantive Motion on Thursday, instead of bringing it forward in another shape on Friday, I shall be prepared to postpone all the Orders of the Day on Thursday, to enable the hon. Gentleman to proceed on that day. The hon. Member for Wycombe mentioned that Her Majesty's naval forces had come into collision with the forces of the Junta. I am not in possession of any official information; but if the hon. Gentleman refers to the accounts

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which have appeared in the newspapers, I must say that my impression from reading the newspapers is, that the collision reported to have taken place has occurred between the ships belonging to Her Majesty the Queen of Portugal and those belonging to the Junta, and not between Her Britannic Majesty's naval forces and the forces of the Junta.

THE BOROUGH OF SUDBURY.
MR. COLLETTbegged to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government during the present Parliament to supply the deficiency in the number of Members of the House by the disfranchisement of the borough of Sudbury?
LORD J. RUSSELLstated that there was no intention. If a special case was made out in favour of any place, it would be for the House to consider the matter; but otherwise he saw no necessity for such a Bill as the hon. Gentleman suggested.
MR. COLLETTbegged to give notice that he would bring forward a Bill to allow two Members to be returned for Chelsea.

THE WELLINGTON STATUE.
MR. C. BERKELEYwished to ask the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Forests, first, whether he had withdrawn the consent of the Crown to the continuance of the Wellington Statue on the arch at Hyde Park Corner; secondly, whether he had signified the determination of Her Majesty on that subject to the Committee of the Wellington testimonial; and, lastly, how long it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government that the statue should remain where it was, and whether the noble Lord was aware if the Committee had the funds necessary to enable them to carry out that part of their engagement by which they were bound, if required, to remove the statue from its present site?
VISCOUNT MORPETH: In reply to my hon. Friend's three categorical questions, I have to answer, first, that the Government have advised Her Majesty to give authority for the removal of the statue from the arch; secondly, that the Government have signified that decision to the Committee. The Committee replied that they did not think a sufficient portion of the scaffolding had been removed. But they now state that a sufficient portion has been removed. The Government, however, regret that
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they are still under the necessity of adhering to the opinion, that the effect is unfavourable, both for the statue and the arch, and is not such as to do credit to a memorial in honour of the Duke of Wellington. With regard to the third question, as to what are the views of the Committee, and whether they have sufficient funds for the removal, I beg to profess entire ignorance of the state of their funds. All I know is that they are willing to remove the statue, and they have now intimated their intention of doing so. The artist has been requested to prepare a pedestal; a site has not been found; but as soon as the pedestal is completed, the Government will see the removal effected. Further, Her Majesty has signified Her pleasure that, when the House shall be pleased to vote the sum necessary for the completion of the arch, any decorations which may still have to be added should be illustrative of the achievements of the Duke of Wellington, and should be such as may serve to mark the sense which the country entertains of his exploits and his deserts.
LORD J. MANNERS,with reference to the recent answer of the noble Lord, begged to inquire whether the Government would order the artist to proceed to the execution of the decorations of the arch before a vote for that purpose was agreed to by the House? and secondly, whether the Wellington Statue would be removed before the fresh site was positively fixed upon?
VISCOUNT MORPETHsaid, that the first thing for the Government to do would be, to require the sculptor to prepare a plan and estimate. If that plan and estimate were ready before the conclusion of the Session, they would certainly take a vote before the execution of the works. As to the statue, it would not be removed until the site was positively fixed on.

INDIAN SALT.
VISCOUNT SANDONbegged to put a question to the President of the Board of Control, whether he had received intelligence of a notification published by the Deputy Governor of Bengal, on the 31st day of March, 1847, by which, on and after the 1st of April, 1847, the prices of salt in store in Calcutta, manufactured under the Government monopoly, and the duty on imported salt, were to be reduced, but unequally, and without notice to the importers; and if so, what steps the Go-

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vernment in this country were prepared to take in respect of such enactment?
SIR J. C. HOBHOUSEstated, that it was quite true that the Indian Government had reduced not only the price but the duty upon salt, and the reduction extended not only to native salt, but British imported. He had received a communication from the agents of the salt mines at Calcutta, expressive of the alarm of the merchants and importers at this notification. He had, therefore, thought it his duty to look into the subject, and he would as speedily as possible present to the House the papers which had accompanied the notification, and which would fully explain the motives of the Indian Government in making this important change. But before the papers were read, after looking into the matter, he might state that there was nothing whatever of which the British importer had any right to complain. The reduction was the same to the native producers as to the British importers. The reduction in British imported salt was twenty-five rupees; and though there seemed a great difference between that and the reduction on the native salt, it arose from a mistake in the calculation, caused by reckoning the price and duty together. The reduction was, however, the greatest on the Cuttack salt, which came most in competition with the British; but for this the Indian Government had assigned very satisfactory reasons.
VISCOUNT SANDONwished to know whether the representation of the right hon. Gentleman was, in effect, that the British importer was unaffected by the change?
SIR J. HOBHOUSEobserved, that it was a mistake to suppose that the parties had been taken by surprise, as would appear from the papers. On March 25, 1846, it was notified at Calcutta that no alteration would be made in the duty or in the wholesale price by the Government before April 1, 1847.
SIR J. PAKINGTONasked what was the date of the despatch?
SIR J. HOBHOUSEwas understood to state, that there was nothing in the circumstances to indicate a disposition to counteract the measures of others.

THE POTATO CROP.
MR. HORSMANinquired, if the Government had got information whether the potato disease had appeared in this country, and especially in Ireland?
MR. STAFFORD O'BRIENwished an
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answer at the same time to the question as to what course the Government intended to pursue with regard to the Agricultural Statistics Bill—whether they intended to abandon it altogether this Session, or to remit it to a Select Committee?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERbegged to say, in answer to the question of the hon. Member for Cocker-mouth, that it was quite true that reports had reached the Government of the potato disease having made its appearance in different parts of the country; but that it was yet by far too early to form any decided opinion on the subject. It must be remembered, that last year the extent and character of the potato disease was not ascertained till late in July; and therefore it was impossible for the best informed to form any exact opinion about it at the present time. With regard to Ireland, the Agricultural Society of Dublin was about to meet in a few days to receive information from the different parts of the country, and to discuss the subject. In answer to the question of the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. O'Brien), he begged to repeat the statement made by the noble Lord the First Lord of the Treasury a few nights ago, that it would be impossible to proceed with the Agricultural Statistics Bill this Session.
MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, that all the accounts he had recently received from Ireland tended to this, that the new potatoes were decidedly showing marks of a different sort of disease from that with which they were affected last year. The stalks, in many instances, were actually withered already. He had received accounts to this effect from various parts of Ireland that morning; and the writers added that they wished the Government would say something official to dissuade the people from putting down the quantities of potatoes which they were at this moment doing. If the Government would do that, it would be better than the Chancellor of the Exchequer telling the House that he knew little or nothing about the subject. If the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland (Mr. Labouchere) would refer to the communication which had been made to the Government by Mr. Higgins, the eminent nursery gardener of Dublin, he would find that the potato disease had shown itself very extensively.
MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, it was no doubt true that in many parts of Ireland the new potatoes had been found extensively

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affected with disease. The information which the Agricultural Society of Ireland had received, fully warranted that apprehension. As had already been stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that Society was to meet in Dublin in a few days, and would receive accounts from all parts of the country with the view of seeing what reason there was to believe that the disease extensively prevailed in Ireland; and what were the practical remedies which it would he advisable to adopt, with the view to changing the cultivation to suit the altered state of things. For his part, he thought that a body of this kind was far better qualified to investigate questions of this description, and to give advice as to the cultivation and management of the crops, than the Government could he to deal with a question of such delicacy and difficulty. That was a responsibility which no Government could well undertake.
MR. C. BURRELLsaid, he had adopted one expedient with advantage, on the recommendation of a person writing in the Gardener's Chronicle—a work of the greatest possible utility and benefit to the agriculturists of this country and the public. That journal some time past recommended the adoption of what was almost an universal practice in some parts of the Continent—sowing harricot beans, which in Spain, France, and Italy, formed a very nutritious part of the aliment of the population of those countries. He had every promise of a good produce and abundance of profit; and he hoped to see the cultivation brought into more general use in this country.
MR. E. B. ROCHEremarked, that as a panic might be created in Ireland without any foundation, by what had been stated with reference to the potato crop, it might, perhaps, be as well that he should give his experience as contradistinguished from that of the hon. and gallant Member for Wycombe (Mr. B. Osborne). He was happy to state, that at the time he left Ireland, which was two days ago, there was no appearance, to any extent, of the potato disease in the county of Cork and the south of Ireland generally; and he hoped that Providence would give them a continuation of this beautifully clement weather, and preserve them from that calamity. Where the disease had appeared, there could be no doubt that the best way for the farmers to take was at once to take them up, and put in the only crop which
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they could put in at this late season—he meant late turnips. Last year he had sown 100 acres of late turnips after potatoes, and they had turned out exceedingly well. He was happy to say, also, that a greater quantity of corn having been put into the ground this season than usual, in place of potatoes, the prospects of Ireland were to a greater extent better than last year.

CUSTOMS BILL OF ENTRY.
MR. EWARTwished to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any steps had been taken to reduce the price of the Customs Bill of Entry? It was of great importance for merchants to have copies of that document, and great complaints were made of the high price at which it was sold.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that in the course of last year the patent had been put an end to, and a new arrangement made with the publishers of the document; in which new arrangement the interest of the public had not been lost sight of, the price of the document having now been reduced from 6l. to 3l. 10 s. per annum.

RELIEF WORKS IN IRELAND.
LORD G. BENTINCKwished to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in a condition to tell the House what was the present weekly expense of the staff for the management of the relief works in Ireland; and whether he could inform the House if the expense of the rations to the destitute poor amounted to 2½d each per day—because, when the question was put to him on Monday night by the right hon. Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham), he stated that he was unable to say whether the cost was 2d. or 2½d., or, in other words, whether the annual expense would be 8,000,000 or 6,500,000 l.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that the expense of the staff was in the course of rapid reduction. Ever since the month of March last, the expense of each week had been less than the expense of the preceding week; and it was therefore impossible to give a general answer as to the weekly expense, seeing that it was reduced from week to week. He was prepared to lay on the Table of the House what was the expense in any one week. He had received a report of the expense for the week ending

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last Saturday; but he could not at that moment state what it was. With respect to the rations, what he had stated the other night was, that the maximum daily cost of each was 2½d. The cost varied in different parts of the country; in some places it was 1d., in some 1½d., in others 2d., and in some few particular cases 2½d.
LORD G. BENTINCKobserved, that up to the last return the House had always had an account of the expense of the staff each week. The last week of which they had a return, the aggregate amount of the cost of the staff was 14,900 l. a week. There was surely no more reason why they should he kept in ignorance now of the total weekly account of the staff than heretofore. Then, again, with respect to the cost of the rations, the Chancellor of the Exchequer informed the House, that the number of persons receiving rations was 2,200,000. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not state what the exact cost of each ration was, could he state what the weekly cost of the whole was?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERasked, if his noble Friend meant to say that in the last return the weekly expense of the staff was omitted? [Lord G. BENTINCK: Yes.] Then that must entirely have been the result of mistake, and he should take care that it should be repaired. With respect to the rations, what he stated on Monday night was, that a certain amount of rations had been issued; he did not state the exact cost of each; but that, estimating them at 2½d., the amount that would be required up to a given day was 2,600,000 l. He did not state that the cost was 2½d. each, because he did not know it.
LORD G. BENTINCKsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman told them that there were 2,200,000 rations daily being given out; and upon being asked what he estimated the cost at, he said 2½d. a day; and from that he made various calculations of what the total cost would be; and the result, so far as he (Lord G. Bentinck) was able to calculate, was that the cost of the rations and the cost of the public works together was going on still at the rate of 11,000,000 l. a year.

LOAN DISCOUNT BILL.
On the Question that the Order of the Day for the Third Reading of the Loan Discount Bill be read,
MR. GISBORNErose and said, that in the course of the previous debates on this Bill the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made no fewer than four speeches, which had occupied about six hours, with respect to the Bank Charter Bill of 1844. There had been also two speeches from the right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) the author of that Bill, besides speeches from other Members. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated last night that the discussion to-night would take up a very short time; and he (Mr. Gisborne) hoped it would be so. If it was the pleasure of the House, he had no objection to continue the currency debate, and to afford hon. Members an opportunity of explaining what a pound was; although he would advise the hon. Member for Birmingham to avoid that topic; for, as he understood, it was advantageous to the Birmingham system not to have an accurate definition of a pound. He was informed last night that a distinct Motion would be submitted to the House relative to the currency; and if that should prove to be the case, it would be unnecessary to continue the debate on the Loan Discount Bill that evening. Perhaps the noble Member for Lynn would be good enough to state whether he meant to bring forward a Motion on the subject of the currency.
The CHANCELLOR OP THE EXCHEQUERfelt it necessary to address a few words to the House, after the extraordinary statement made by the hon. Member relative to what fell from him last night. He fixed the Order of the Day for that evening in the full expectation that the debate would go on, and did not utter a syllable of what the hon. Member had attributed to him. When he came down to the House again about ten or eleven o'clock, he learned, for the first time, that it was intended to originate a substantive currency debate, and that therefore it was not likely that the debate on the Loan Discount Bill would be continued.
MR. GISBORNEwas sorry he had misrepresented the right hon. Baronet; but the right hon. Secretary for the Homo Department did positively state last night, in answer to a question put by him, that the discussion on the Loan Discount Bill would not occupy much time.
SIR G. GREYsaid, he gave that assurance in consequence of having heard that a distinct Motion on the subject of the currency was about to be submitted to the House at an early period.
LORD G. BENTINCKsaid, that having been asked last night whether the debate on the Loan Discount Bill would be a protracted one, he could answer only for himself that he would not be a party to protracting it, because an hon. Friend, who was much more able to handle the subject than he was, intended to bring forward a substantive measure relative to the currency—that instead of mere desultory talk it would be a word and a blow. He added, that if the Friend to whom he alluded should not bring the measure forward, he himself would introduce a Bill for the partial or entire repeal of the Bank Charter Act of 1844. Answering only for himself, therefore, and not pledging himself as to the conduct of others, he said that he would not waste the time of the House in desultory talk.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, it appeared to him that the course which the noble Lord proposed to pursue was the best which could be taken. It was very well with respect to a question which excited great immediate interest, and with respect to which the public was anxious to know the opinions of Parliament, that some conversation should take place in order to afford different Members an opportunity of explaining their views; but if there really existed an intention of altering or repealing the Act of 1844, it was very desirable that a desultory discussion, which could lead to no definite result, should not be continued. He therefore hoped hon. Members would refrain from entering into a currency debate on the question before the House, but would reserve themselves for the occasion when a distinct Motion would be brought before them, and then let the House decide whether it would adhere to the Act of 1844, or abandon it.
MR. MUNTZsaid, that important as the question was acknowledged to be, he feared that by the course about to be pursued, there would be no discussion upon it at all.
SIR R. PEELunderstood the noble Lord the Member for Lynn to have given a distinct assurance that the question should be brought before the House in a substantive form by himself or some other Member moving for the repeal of the Act of 1844. If that were the case, he trusted that hon. Gentlemen who might persist in speaking upon the question fixed for that evening, would not think it a mark of disrespect if others refrained from answering their arguments. It would be much better
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to have the question before the House in a practical shape; and he would, therefore, abstain altogether from taking part in any discussion which might ensue that evening.
SIR W. CLAYexpressed an opinion, that in the present position of the question, it was desirable there should be no discussion that evening.
MR. HUDSONsaid, it was very easy for the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, who had already spoken on the question, to announce his intended abstinence from further discussion; but he, who had not yet addressed the House on the subject, was anxious to have the opportunity of bringing what little knowledge he happened to possess to bear upon it; and therefore he hoped that his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham would exercise his right of resuming the debate.
Sir R. PEELbegged to assure the hon. Gentleman that it was not his wish that the House should be deprived of the advantage of hearing the hon. Member explain the bearing which the investment of capital in railways had upon the question; his observations were applied generally.
MR. F. BARINGhad not spoken on the question, and he was willing to pair off with the hon. Member for Sunderland. It was infinitely better to have a discussion upon a practical question than mere loose talk; and he hoped that hon. Members who had intended to address the House that evening, would, after what had passed, refrain from doing so.
MR. SPOONERsaid, that on his Motion the debate was adjourned, and he was now prepared to recommence it; but he would not like to occupy the time of the House by going at length into the question, if his arguments were not to be met by Other Members. He was prepared to answer the question which the right hon. Member for Tamworth put to him on a former evening; but he would bow to the wish of the House if they desired that the discussion should not be continued. If the Motion promised by the noble Lord the Member for Lynn should not be brought forward, he ought to have an opportunity of addressing the House on the question.
LORD J. RUSSELLhad understood his noble Friend the Member for Lynn to give an explicit assurance that the question would be brought forward either by himself or another hon. Member. If, however, that should not be the case, he (Lord

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J. Russell) would undertake to give the hon. Member for Birmingham an opportunity of making a full exposition of his views on the subject; but of course he could not engage that other hon. Members should reply to him.
LORD G. BENTINCKrepeated his declaration, that an hon. Friend intended to introduce a Bill to repeal or limit the operation of the Bank Charter Act of 1844; and that if his hon. Friend should not do so, he would introduce the measure himself. At the same time he was bound to inform the hon. Member for Birmingham that the measure would be much more limited than would suit his views.
SIR ROBERT PEEL,notwithstanding his hon. Friend on his left (Mr. Spooner) had been rather coy in giving information to the House with respect to his intentions, he had said something in an undertone after sitting down which reached his (Sir Robert Peel's) ears, and which was calculated to throw some light on the matter. He had said that it was his intention to apply himself to the task of answering the question—"what was a pound?" and, furthermore, his hon. Friend had declared his conviction that the interrogatory was one which it would take a long time to solve. Now he (Sir Robert Peel) wished to state that the question which he had proposed some evenings since was not precisely the one that the hon. Gentleman proposed answering. He had not asked—"What is a pound?" What he asked was this— "When a man writes the words, 'I promise to pay a pound,' how and in what manner does he intend fulfilling his promise?" That was the question he had asked.
MR. SPOONERdenied having declared that the question he intended to answer was one which would necessarily occupy a long time. The question which the right hon. Baronet had just now stated was not the same that he had proposed to him (Mr. Spooner) on a former occasion. On that occasion he asked him—"What do you say is a pound?" To that interrogatory he was prepared to give a clear answer; but what he had said was, that that answer would devolve on him the necessity of entering very fully into the whole question. [Laughter.] He was at a loss to think what hon. Members saw in that declaration to promote their merriment. There was nothing contradictory in it. The opinions he had held on this subject he had held for a very long period, and he had always
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expressed them respectfully and with deference to others. He certainly would claim the right of explaining his views fully, for the subject was one of much importance.
Order of the Day read.
On the Question that the Bill be read a Second Time,
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he would take the opportunity of making only one observation. His noble Friend had stated on a former occasion that he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would get no money under the Bill; now he begged to state that he had already received in anticipation of the enactment no less a sum than 2,678,000 l.
MR. SPOONERobserved, that it appeared to him exceedingly strange that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had neglected to avail himself of the offer made to him at the time of contracting the loan to pay a portion of the money, provided discount were allowed. Upon that occasion he informed the Gentleman contracting for the loan, that he did not require the money in advance. This declaration showed considerable want of due foresight, and ignorance of the actual condition of his finances. It was, he repeated, most strange that when the loan was contracted, in the month of March or April last, the right hon. Gentleman did not see that the measure suggested to him by the contractors would have been a prudent one for him to have accepted, and would have enabled him to meet the forthcoming dividends without an advance on deficiency bills. Having refused to take the money in advance, although he knew there would be a drain upon the Exchequer to meet the deficiency bills, it was unaccountable that the right hon. Gentleman should blame others with not acting with care and caution in guarding against a drain for gold. He could not forbear thinking that the gentlemen who contracted for the loan had considerable grounds for complaint against the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They were, of course, after what had passed at the interview, led to conclude that the right hon. Gentleman did not want money to meet the deficiency bills; and they left the room under the impression that no advance was required. He was not now speaking without some knowledge of the facts, for he had it from one of the contractors that he left the room under the full impression that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not

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want the money before the stated period for the payment of the instalments. He would not follow up the subject further, but content himself by saying that the relief afforded by prompt payment would be no practical relief at all, for the money would have to come out of the circulating capital of the country. He knew the right hon. Gentleman fancied that the opinions of hon. Gentlemen who had not the official knowledge he possessed were not worthy of attending to—that feeling he had expressed in more than one instance—but he could only say that all practical men, that all men who judged the affairs of business, and acted by those rules which ought to guide the conduct of all hon. men, were unanimous in thinking that the course pursued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in refusing the payment in advance of the instalments, was not that which was regulated either by prudence or by a knowledge of the financial position of the country.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERobserved, that accusations had been made against him that evening in respect of matters which he had hoped he had satisfactorily explained on previous occasions. He had only now to repeat what he had stated frequently before—namely, that at the time he made the loan he did not anticipate that any portion of the money would be required in advance of the instalments then agreed on. He had no object in concealing information, and if any question had been asked him by the contractors respecting earlier payment, he would not have hesitated to give them the most satisfactory answer in his power; but no such question had been asked. he certainly had not expected that any occasion would arise which would render it necessary that the money should be paid otherwise than by instalments as agreed upon. It was only in consequence of a change of circumstances, which was not in any degree attributable to anything he had done, and which he could not fairly be expected to have foreseen, that he had found it necessary to propose the measure now under consideration. he had never held out any expectation that the mere requiring the payments to be made by instalments would have the effect of relieving the money market. He could not well suppose that the taking money out of the money market would make the pressure on the market lighter; but he did express a hope that the two measures—this, and the one of lending money on Exchequer
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bills—taken together, would have conjointly the effect of causing some relief. And he way happy to say, that this expectation had been realized. The result of what had taken place of late had been to cause very considerable relief to the money market. The utmost amount of Exchequer bills sent in, and for which payment in money was required, up to yesterday, did not exceed 15,000 l. A further demand to the amount of 5,000 l. had come in that day, making in all 20,000 l. That was the only sum that they had been asked to pay in money. On the other hand, the quantity of Exchequer bills that had been sent in for exchange, fully equalled the quantity which was presented at a similar period of former years.
MR. NEWDEGATErejoiced that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had, in his speech, announced a more favourable bulletin as to the health of the Old Lady of Threadneedle-street, although it was quite clear that, after all, she had only passed an easy day. He considered his hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham had been rather too hard upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because he had expected greater foresight and caution from him, than even from the most experienced merchants and bankers of the day. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had, after all, only suffered from the depressing influence of the Bank Charter Bill of 1844; and therefore it was hard to blame him for not having that perception which was superhuman. It was clear that neither the contractors for the loan, the commercial world, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, nor, he believed, the hon. Member for Birmingham himself, had the slightest idea of the state of the market likely to ensue, aggravated probably by the pressure of the provisions of that Bill. He was glad the noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) intended to bring the question substantially before the House, and he should defer any observations he had to make till he had a practical opportunity of doing so.
Bill read a third time and passed.

PRISONS—CONVICT DISCIPLINE—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Order of the Day for resuming the Adjourned Debate, on the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Prisons Bill, read.
MR. EWARTsaid, the real question before the House, was the system of transportation. On that subject he agreed

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with a great part of what fell from the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth), on the previous evening, and with the principles of the able report of his Committee on Transportation in 1837. The congregating of masses of criminals together had created evils unexampled in the frightful category of history,
"— abominable, unutterable, and worse
Than fables yet have feigned or fear conceived."
They might as well hope to have health and physical vigour in a locality where the concentrated virus of some fearful pestilence had been accumulated, as to expect that where they collected gregariously a vast amount of crime and evil, they could entertain a reasonable hope of reforming criminals. All the accounts which they had received from the penal colonies wore unanimous in describing the condition of the convicts as most deplorable; and upon that account he hailed with gratification the prospect of a great and salutary change in this important subject. So strong was his impression of the evil of the system at Van Diemen's Land, that he had thought it his duty to bring a measure forward, directed with a view to check the evil. The House was counted out on that occasion; hut now they found the Government of the present day bringing forward the very measure which the late Government had permitted the House to be counted out upon. With the general principles of the measure introduced by Her Majesty's Government he coincided; and he ventured to differ from them only where they departed from the principles they themselves entertained. The main principle of the plan was right, but they had departed from it in some of the details. It was intended to abolish the aggregating of criminals together abroad; but it seemed as if the system would be re-established at home. He approved of the Pentonville system of separate confinement, and he disapproved of the system of making the convicts work together in gangs in the colonies; because he considered that system destroyed the advantages inculcated by the solitary principle pursued in prison. Upon this ground he objected to any congregating system which was calculated to bring the prisoners into close and injurious contact with each other. If they congregated prisoners, after taking them from gaol, in probation gangs, they destroyed the salutary principle of the separate system. The sound principle was to dissort them one by one, and to spread them as widely as possible
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throughout the colony. It had been said that the system of assignment had its good characteristics. It was good inasmuch as it carried out the separate system, but no further. It was beneficial, because, when the convicts were deported, they were assigned individually, and not collectively. There were two objections raised by the noble Lord the Member for Hertford (Lord Mahon), who said that if they did away with transportation, they would abolish the salutary fear of transportation. For his part, he considered, if it were intended to convey any such fear, the punishment ought to be clearly defined, and not left a vague uncertainty. The noble Lord had quoted the opinions of the Judges in support of his argument. He had great respect for the Judges; but although he was willing to defer to them in matters of law, he was not at all disposed to attach much weight to their opinions on matters of general and comprehensive legislation. The noble Lord also compared this proposal to the system that had so long prevailed in Franco—the bagnes—in the establishments at Brest, Toulon, and other ports; but he could not think Her Majesty's Government would establish such a system hero. It was not only most revolting to humanity, but had been exploded by all the legislators and philosophers of France. By sending men from the prisons where they had been subjected to a reformatory discipline, to join those masses of criminals, the effects of that discipline were soon eradicated. It was said, that men who had been isolated under the separate system, had been found incapable of acting afterwards in their collective capacity. He thought this a trifling objection, as the men soon re-acquired their social habits, as they learned from the conduct of the convicts in New South Wales, and were able to act gregariously again. Several Governments had appointed Commissioners to inquire into this subject; and, after the fullest investigation, the Belgian, the American, and our own Government, had come to the conclusion that the separate system was the best mode of punishment, if, combined with inflicting adequate penalty for crime: the object was also the reformation of the criminal. He would beg hon. Members not to confound separate with solitary confinement. The convict was not shut out from communion with those whose instruction and whose habits of life and moral discipline were calculated to effect an improvement in his condition and ways of think-

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ing; and it was yet a question if the strictness of the solitary imprisonment might not, by degrees, be relaxed with the best effect as an amendment was perceived in the conduct of the prisoner? On these grounds he would give his support to the measure. He objected to some of the details; but he believed the principle to be sound, and in every way worthy of experiment. He supported this measure, first, because it was founded on the principle of discipline; secondly, because it embraced the principle of separating the convicts one from the other; next, because it introduced a system which did not forbid hope; and lastly, because it would develop all that was good, while it would tend to eradicate all that was evil in the character of the criminal. It was a step in the right direction; and he gave the Government every credit for having entered upon a path which would open the way to innumerable advantages to society.
MR. G. W. HOPEwould address himself to this subject with no intention to object captiously to the course which had been taken by Her Majesty's Government, and with no other disposition than to assist in overcoming the very serious difficulties which had been found to attend every attempt at legislation on this question. Before, however, proceeding to the discussion of the real question before the House, he hoped he might be excused if, as briefly as possible, he adverted to the charge which had been made the previous evening by the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth), against the noble Lord (Lord Stanley), under whom he had had the honour to serve. He had listened to the speech of the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey), who opened the subject, with the greatest satisfaction; and he had expected, after the very able and impartial statement of the right hon. Baronet; after the reference made by him to the difficulties surrounding the question; and after he had pointed out the course which had been taken by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley) in the earnest endeavour to overcome those difficulties, that the hon. Baronet the Member for Southwark would have spoken with more candour of the efforts his noble Friend had made for that purpose; and he had been surprised to hear the hon. Gentleman charging the noble Lord with indifference and negligence as regarded evils which, from the commencement to the close of his career as Colonial Minister, so far from neglecting, he had been most anxious to
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avoid and to remedy—which he did mitigate—and which, if he did not remedy, he failed so to do, from no want of ability or attention, but from the naturally insuperable character of the difficulties themselves. He would rest the justification of the noble Lord, not on the testimony which he himself personally might be able to bear to his exertions, but upon the evidence of impartial persons totally unconnected with the noble Lord, whoso opinions would be found in the papers which had been referred to by the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Department. Had those papers not been already largely quoted, he (Mr. Hope) would have felt bound to detain the House by reading extracts from them; but as they had, he was glad to be able to spare their time by not doing so; and he appealed with confidence to their contents—to the facts apparent on the face of them—to show, that from the moment the noble Lord entered the Colonial Office, to the moment when he retired, he had given the closest and most constant attention to that very subject of transportation to which the noble Lord was most unjustly alleged by the hon. Baronet to have been indifferent. The noble Lord entered office in the latter part of 1841; early in 1842 this subject engaged his attention. The noble Lord found the probation system established; but in order to improve it, he matured a plan which, in the working of some of its details, might not have been successful, but which it was admitted failed of success solely in consequence of deficiencies on the part of the agents to whom it was necessarily entrusted to be carried out. The hon. Baronet had said, and of course had a right to say, that the noble Lord must be held answerable for the conduct of those agents whom he appointed; that was a responsibility which could not be eschewed by any Ministry; but it was no less true that a Minister could only select those who on full and impartial inquiry appeared fit for the post for which they were designed, without reference to personal favour or influence; and having done that, and given them full and clear instructions, he must necessarily rely upon them to carry out those instructions in detail, depending—unless shown cause to doubt their integrity—upon the reports which they forwarded to him for a knowledge of the manner in which they performed their duties. The hon. Baronet would not contest that statement; and as a Minister could not avoid being deceived sometimes in the selection

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of an agent, it was not reconcileable to equity or to any common-sense notion of justice, whatever might be the strict legal rule, where every care had been taken by him in the selection of an agent, to hold him morally responsible when the conduct of that agent came under public reprehension. To pass, however, from the personal part of the hon. Baronet's speech to that on the question itself, he must say the hon. Baronet, when stating the plan of the noble Lord, did not appear to have paid that attention to the right hon. Baronet who preceded him, of which his speech was so well deserving; and this was to be regretted, because, had he done so, the hon. Baronet would not a second time have gone over the grounds exhausted by the right hon. Baronet, or have attacked the noble Lord, as he (Mr. Hope) contended he had done most unjustly, after the general review of the subject which had been given by the right hon. Gentleman. He repeated that he did not feel under the necessity of entering upon the particulars of the plan after the full reference made by the right hon. Baronet to the voluminous despatches which had been laid on the Table of the House. He trusted only that hon. Gentlemen who took an interest in this question had read those despatches; if they had, they would know the difficulties which the noble Lord had had to surmount in dealing with it, and they would know also the mode in which he had dealt with it; and with that knowledge he would leave it to them to say whether or not he had discharged faithfully the duty which had been confided to his charge. He (Mr. Hope) had promised the House not to travel over the details of the system established by his noble Friend, and he would not do so; but, as showing the feelings by which he was guided, and the foundation on which it was based, without any intention to impugn the proceedings of preceding Secretaries of State, he begged to call the attention of the House to the fact appearing in the despatches, that the noble Lord was the first who introduced as the foundation of his plan a regular system of religious instruction for the convict. The deficiency in this respect had first been supplied by the noble Lord. Under the system of assignment, it would, perhaps, have been impossible to adopt such a plan; but the hon. Baronet had fallen into an error in stating, that Lord Stanley had established the probation system. The noble
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Lord had in fact succeeded to that system: it had originally been adopted by Lord J. Russell, no doubt under a pressure of circumstances which left him little choice and little time to arrange it; but unquestionably Lord Stanley had found it most defective in the point he had alluded to as in others; and though his noble Friend had not established it, yet under his directions, if obeyed, every precaution would have been had recourse to, to give it a fair trial; and before any charge was made against the noble Lord, in reference to the want of success which had resulted, it should be remembered that he had not invented the system: he had found it in operation, and, imperfect as it might be, it would confessedly have been much more imperfect had it not been for his alterations and improvements. It was with great reluctance, while on this point, that he felt himself called upon, in justice to his noble Friend, to refer to the melancholy circumstances connected with Sir E. Wilmot. The facts had, however, been published in the papers before the House; and no objection could be taken to his quoting from them, to show that his noble Friend was altogether free from the blame imputed to him in such strong terms by the hon. Baronet, on account of alleged inattention to the accounts received by him of the working of the system. It would be found, that to the last moment of the administration of Sir E. Wilmot, even in the despatch dated the 10th of July, 1845, the reports received from him at the Colonial Office, were of a decidedly favourable character. In the despatch of last year—a period, it would be recollected, at which he was in a position freely to find fault with the system if it had excited his disapprobation, the conviction he expressed was, that, with the exception of some deficiencies, to which he had before made allusion, the probation system, as improved by Lord Stanley, was the best that could be introduced to attain the end in view. Now he would ask, if it was fair, while despatches such as these were being received, to charge his noble Friend with negligence or indifference, because he did not overturn the whole system thus described as in operation, and substitute another in its stead. With regard to what had been said by the hon. Baronet as to the unfortunate mismanagement at Norfolk Island, he could only state to the hon. Baronet that it was

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the duty of the Governor administering the government of Van Diemen's Land, to inform himself of the progress of affairs at Norfolk Island; and that it was only in this manner the Secretary for the Colonies could obtain any information relative to that settlement. The same reports were received of the state of Norfolk Island, as were continually received of Van Diemen's Land; and no reason was given to his noble Friend to suspect the real state of the case. That these reports were fallacious, he (Mr. Hope) had now not the slightest doubt. It was now established by official investigation, that its true state was very different from that which it was represented to be. Doubts had arisen in the mind of his noble Friend on the receipt of the despatch dated September, 1845, already referred to by the right hon. Baronet, as to how far these official reports were correct; and he immediately took steps to authenticate the statement made to him in contradiction of the tenor of the official information. He used every exertion to obtain an accurate description of the real state of the island; and the reports he elicited bearing upon the subject were now before the House. It would be obvious, however, that there was the greatest necessity of receiving with caution statements such as those which had been made to his noble Friend, and which had been made the subject of investigation; and though it was made an accusation by the hon. Baronet, that the noble Lord had not acted on the information laid before him, every hon. Gentleman at all acquainted with ordinary reports from the colonies, was aware that there was usually found the utmost difficulty in obtaining such trustworthy statements as to justify the Government at home in relying on them without ample corroboration. He was ready to admit that the appointment of Major Childs had not been a good one. [Sir W. MOLESWORTH: Hear.] The hon. Baronet cheered as if an error was confessed; but let the hon. Baronet hear the history of that gentleman. Major Childs was an officer in the Marines, and the situation to which he was appointed was one not greatly coveted. It was the situation of a gaoler in the Pacific, in a position to deprive him of all society and to separate him from all his friends. The noble Lord had searched in vain for a considerable time for a man who would accept of such a post; Major Childs was willing and was recommended to him as a gallant officer, as having been remarkable through
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life for the strict discipline he maintained, and for the tact he had invariably evinced in the direction of the conduct of those under his charge. He (Mr. Hope) did not know on what they could rely in the appointment of a public officer, if not on the recommendations of those acquainted with his previous history and services, and yet not concerned in his promotion. If, after every precaution had been taken and every inquiry made into his character, the officer proved unequal to his duties, it could only be looked upon as one of those misfortunes which it was impossible to guard against, and which, however often they occurred, could be no guide for the future. His noble Friend had suffered in this case from such a misfortune; but, he repeated, it was from no want of care in the selection of the officer whoso conduct was in question, who had been chosen solely because, on authority on which his noble Friend thought he could rely, he was represented as peculiarly fitted for the post. With regard to the plan now proposed, as detailed by the right hon. Baronet, he must in the first place remark upon a most material change in it, as now stated from that originally brought forward in the other House of Parliament. According to the statement then made, he understood it was intended that hereafter all convicts should proceed, after undergoing a certain process of reformation in this country, to the colonies as holders of conditional pardons—that was, that they should proceed in the condition of exiles, forbidden, as the only restriction on their liberty, to return to this country during the term of the sentence passed on them. The effect of this would have been to make all convicts on transportation free men, with the single exception that they would not be permitted to return to any place within the four seas, during the term of their sentences. But according to the plan now adopted, some of the convicts, as had been explained by the right hon. Baronet, would leave this country with tickets of leave, not conditional pardons. Now the House ought to be aware that the difference between conditional pardons and tickets of leave was one, not merely of form, but of substance. The party receiving a conditional pardon ceased to be a convict; the person obtaining only a ticket of leave remained still a convict; the ticket might at any time be withdrawn, and he would again become liable to convict discipline as a prisoner. The effect of

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this change was most important as regarded both the colonies and the convicts themselves. As regarded the colonies, it had this most serious consequence, that, receiving convicts on these terms they must continue or become penal colonies. The essence of the system was in the power to withdraw the ticket of leave for misconduct, and send the holder back to a severer system of discipline. But to carry out such a system, penal establishments must be maintained. Now, this altered the whole character of the plan: it made it a modification and continuance, not an abolition of transportation. He by no means stated that as an objection. According to his (Mr. Hope's) views, it was the reverse, because as regarded the convicts, they would retain what he considered most important—a power of punishing them in case of insubordination or misconduct. In support of this view he had high authority. The right hon. Home Secretary appeared, in the proposal he had made on this subject, to have been influenced by the report of the Legislative Council of New South Wales. It was well known that the colonists of New South Wales never assented to the view taken by the Transportation Committee, but were always in favour of the system of assignment; and the right hon. Baronet appeared to him to have overlooked one very material feature of that report. The Legislative Council did not profess a willingness to receive all persons holding conditional pardons; but the classes they proposed to take were young delinquents who had committed first offences, after little or no probation; convicts who had committed graver offences, after a probation proportioned to their crimes; convicts, under some circumstances, at the commencement of their sentences; and convicts from Van Diemen's Land with tickets of leave. It was obvious that the Legislative Council of New South Wales were ready to receive holders of tickets of leave, though they would not receive persons holding conditional pardons, because the former class were subject to discipline and coercion, from which the latter were exempt. Their authority was one distinctly in favour, not of the abolition, but of the modification of transportation. This brought him to the points which he wished to urge on the attention of the House. They were three. He contended, first, that nothing could be effected at home in convict discipline, which, could not be effected in the colonies;
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secondly, that there were advantages for carrying it out in the colonies, which could not be obtained here; thirdly, that there were disadvantages in carrying it out here, which would not exist there. There was, no doubt, one strong point in favour of the system proposed by the Government, as compared with the old plan of transportation, in the check and control which it was proposed to maintain over the working of the system by close inspection in this country. He admitted this; but in doing so he gave the Government the benefit of the only advantage which could even be alleged in favour of carrying out a convict system at home. He said "alleged," because he considered the difficulty of effecting the same end in the colonies by no means insuperable—in fact, quite the reverse; for he believed that, merely by a more liberal expenditure, the difficulties with regard to the want of efficient superintendence in the colonies might almost certainly be overcome. The superintendence of the convict colonies was a charge of the utmost importance, which ought not to be confided to second-rate men: it should be committed to the highest class of public officers; but, in order to induce such individuals to undertake a charge of this nature, they must hold out to them some adequate remuneration. The hon. Member for Montrose was apt to carp at the expenditure of Colonial Governments. [Mr. HUME: The expenditure of Government at home.] He was glad to hear the hon. Gentleman's disclaimer. It was absolutely necessary, in order to secure good officers for carrying out this system of transportation, that a high rate of remuneration should be given. If this were done, he saw no reason why as efficient a superintendence might not be maintained in the most distant colonies as at the Isle of Portland or at the Isle of Wight; and he was glad to find that the hon. Member for Montrose was ready to support his views. He considered that, among the evils of the present system, there were none which might not be remedied by efficient and active superintendence; which brought him to the two other points he urged, viz., that he believed that nothing could be effected in this country with a view to remedy those evils, which might not with equal ease be accomplished in the colonies; and that there were advantages in the colonies, which did not exist in this country, with respect to any system of convict discipline. The evils which had been referred to as connected with the

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present system, appeared in truth to have arisen from the want of the commonest diligence, activity, and care, in the superintendence and management of the convicts; they had arisen from the want of precautions which it was the special duty of those who were intrusted with the control of the convicts to have adopted—from want of separation, watching, employment, and accommodation. Strange to say, there appeared to exist in the colonies to which the system had been extended, the opposite evils of want of accommodation in point of buildings, and want of employment for these convicts; and it did seem to him most extraordinary that they should receive from the superintendent of a penal settlement a statement that he did not know how to afford employment to the convicts, while there was a considerable deficiency in the number of buildings required for their reception, and an admitted abundance of materials fit to be used in their construction. If the evils of the system arose from such simple causes—and that they did arise from them was apparent from the papers before the House—he considered that they might be remedied without any great difficulty. In support of this view he would refer the right hon. Home Secretary to the authority of Mr. Latrobe, than whom it would be admitted no one was more competent to give an opinion on the subject. Mr. Latrobe, in a letter contained in the correspondence last presented to the House, after stating that he did not wish unnecessarily to magnify evils, the existence or growth of which might be attributable to the present system, added, "I am far from thinking that even the gravest may not be successfully combated." He (Mr. Hope) did not wish to place himself in a position of antagonism to the Government on this question; but he would call upon them to consider whether the opinion which they seemed to have adopted—that the evils of the present system could not be remedied, except by a total abandonment of transportation, was a just conclusion. He believed that those evils might be remedied by a proper system of seclusion and separation: for such a system he was prepared to contend that much greater facilities existed in the Australian colonies than in this country. And, first, as to seclusion in this country: they were compelled to have recourse to an artificial seclusion by the building of prisons; but in Van Diemen's Land there were numerous situations where the means of seclusion were
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already provided by nature; and whereas the risk of attempting to escape would be infinitely great in proportion to the hardship of the punishment, the inducement to attempt escape was proportionably diminished. In Van Diemen's Land, with a population of about 60,000, they had an area nearly as largo as that of Ireland, with 8,000,000 of inhabitants; and there were numerous spots, secluded not only from intercourse with all civilized people, but—which was not the case in other Australian colonies—from all contact with the aboriginal inhabitants. And, next, he would ask whether it would be more difficult to carry into effect in Van Die-men's Land the second great requisite to which he had referred—the system of separation—than it was in this country? He contended that it would not. In Van Diemen's Land they had a superabundance of unemployed labour; and they had an abundance of materials; and it appeared to him that if there was any want of proper employment for the convicts, they could not be better engaged than in the erection of buildings for their own separate accommodation. He said "separate accommodation," because, although it was not his intention to impugn the merits of the separate system (he believed it had been productive of very great benefit); yet he thought the House should not be carried away with the idea that, in the working of the separate system, as carried out in all its strictness at Pentonville, they had such a complete cure for crime as entitled them to rely with confidence upon its operation in all cases. It struck him, on reading the reports on this subject which were in possession of the House, that too much had been said in favour of the absolute certainty of the reformation produced by the separate system alone. According to his views, convicts were softened by it to an unnatural extent—their improvement was not tested as it ought to be to ascertain how far it was real by some contact with the world. On referring to the account of the exiles sent out two years ago to Port Philip, it appeared that many of those convicts who bore the best characters at Pentonville, and who were distinguished for good conduct during the outward voyage, had turned out much worse than their fellows after being landed as free men in New South Wales. One of the convicts stated in a letter, printed in the papers laid before the House, that those who had been the greatest saints at

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Pentonville prison, were the worst characters at Port Philip; and that, had they been left at Hobart Town, where those supposed to be unreformed had been left, and had some who were left there been taken to New South Wales instead, the latter would have done much more credit to the discipline of Pentonville. This statement was fully borne out by the reports; and he considered that to launch these persons at once into temptation, without any controlling power, after they had been subject for a considerable time to the restraints of confinement under the separate system, was not giving that system fair play. He thought the House would agree with him in the opinion that it was most important some intermediate stage of probation should be interposed. And he was prepared to maintain that for the purpose of affording any such intermediate stage, the colonies supplied facilities not to be obtained elsewhere. It was, in fact, possible, only he believed by means of that mixed system—by liberty granted, liable to be forfeited by misconduct as carried out under the probation and ticket of leave system—a system which obviously it would be in vain to attempt to act upon in any, except a society expressly constituted, for the purpose, as was the case in a penal colony. And this brought him to the last consideration he had to offer to the House, viz., that there were disadvantages in carrying out a system of convict discipline in this country, which did not exist in the colonies. And first, as regarded the power of separation, it appeared that in this country, if that system were adopted, about 2,500 additional cells would be immediately required for the reception of prisoners. The right hon. Gentleman said, that he had 500 cells in the Pentonville prison; and Major Jebb calculated that there were 1,000 cells in the county prisons applicable to the purpose. But this plan must come into operation immediately; and, in order to carry out the system, it would be necessary to find accommodation for the separate confinement of at least 4,000 persons annually. The right hon. Gentleman calculated that he would only have about one year for each; but taking the time at eighteen months, the period for those not behaving well, there might be about 6,000 persons to provide for; and here came a practical difficulty in the question—how was the expense to be met? If there was no objection to the system, how was
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the money to be provided? For his own part, he could have no objection to grant the money if it would be productive of proportionate good. He came then, however, to the second stage of the proposition, which appeared to him to be beset by a difficulty beyond the mere financial considerations. In the colonies they had the advantages of a productive soil, a great field for labour—they had the terror of the consequences of escape, and all temptations to attempt it, were far removed, the possibility of ever reaching home being very doubtful. But in the Isle of Portland, or in the Isle of Wight, where the convicts were within a few days' journey of any part of the United Kingdom, the case was different. This was a difficulty which in the minds of the convicts they never could overcome. It had been said that the Judges had expressed an opinion favourable to the abolition of transportation. Such was not the case. None of the Judges, in the evidence which they had given before the Committee of the House of Lords, had stated that the sentence of transportation could be dispensed with. He believed that all the Judges were unanimous in the opinion that no sentence could have an effect on the minds of convicts similar to that of being sent out of the country. One of the Judges, indeed, had said, "transportation as it was at present carried out" should be put an end to; but it was only as at present carried out. He regretted that the evidence to which he alluded was not before the House. But let the House consider well the probable effect of the home system as intended by Government. If it were difficult to anticipate how the proposed system would work in this country, they might refer to the example of a neighbouring nation, namely, France. He was not aware that our criminals were less daring or less dexterous than those of France. In France there existed means of coercion which were not to be found in this country. In France there were fortresses, which, however doubtful their benefits in other respects, were, in regard to the surveillance of convicts, unquestionably advantageous. In France, too, there was a much larger military force than in this country. Yet what was the case there, even with all these advantages? Not only had the convicts loaded guns pointed at them during work, but such was the difficulty of controlling these masses of convicts

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(he had it from an eye-witness), that they slept on long benches—some hundreds on each bench—and at the end of every bench stood a sentry with a 12-pounder cannon loaded, and a lighted match in his hand. Was that a system which would be tolerated in this country? [Sir G. GREY said they were about to alter that system.] Possibly they might; but the French were not deficient in invention, and yet up to the present time they had found that that was the only safe system which could be adopted towards their criminals if they wished to keep them under due control at home. And he did not know where to look for a Government more enlightened or more disposed to treat their criminals as humanely as was consistent with the safety of the country than was the Government of France. And yet what was the state of things in France with regard to their criminal population, notwithstanding all these precautions? Why, the districts in which the criminals were punished were frequently in the greatest degree of confusion, and almost revolution, in consequence of the criminals breaking out of their gaols; and frequently whole villages had to be put under martial law for the purpose of enabling the Government officers to secure the runaway convicts, who brought moral contamination with them wherever they went. He would say distinctly that such a system would never be tolerated in this country. But the custody of these convicts while under discipline, difficult as it would be to effect, would be a minor difficulty compared with what would be experienced in connexion with the proposed plan, in the disposal of convicts after the expiration of their terms of imprisonment. They should be kept under the eye and control of the Government, even after their liberation; and that could not be done so well at home as in the colonies. He wished to know what was the course intended to be taken with regard to those convicts whose good conduct at the public works would not entitle them to the indulgence of a ticket of leave? Were they, notwithstanding, to be liberated? If not, what was to be done with them? But, assuming the plan of the Government to work well, how were those who had deserved indulgence to be disposed of? According to their plan, by being sent to the colonies; and in that he agreed. He held, that one main feature in a reformatory system was the removal of a criminal from the country in which he had been convicted, although he knew, in ex-
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pressing this opinion, that he differed very widely from the hon. Member for Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth) and the hon. Member for Dumfries (Mr. Ewart). He hold it to be most important—for the convict, as opening to him a new field, free from the influence of former associates and the stigma of former bad character—for the country, as carrying off into a wider field those streams of labour—tainted, no doubt—which, though they must continue, if pent up in narrow limits at home, polluted themselves and were the cause of pollution in others, yet dispersed over a more extended range would at once fertilize it, and themselves become purified. When the example of France was looked at, with reference to the treatment of convicts, they had warning enough against the adoption of the home system. He need not repeat to the House the difficulty experienced there by even those best inclined to reformation of the convicts whose sentences had expired; but he would direct attention, as regarded the community at largo, to the circumstance, that there, with a population of 34,000,000, there were but 7,961 convicts withdrawn from it, as shown by the official tables; whilst in this country, with a population of only 24,000,000, there were no less than 50,000 convicts under sentence, or who had been removed to the colonies; leaving, therefore, as regards the great object of removing contaminating influences—taking into account the fact that the convictions in France exceed rather than fall short of the same proportion to the population which they bear in this country—this remarkable difference in favour of our system, that we have been relieved from criminals in a proportion at least six fold greater than have the French. Great, however, as were the advantages of transportation to the mother country, far be it from him to contend that it ought to be persisted in to the detriment of the colonies. The great difference in the effect upon a new country, however, from that upon the old, from the collection of criminals, it must be remembered, arose from the wide field for labour; and he could not give a fairer or a fuller answer as regarded the general effect of the system of transportation upon the penal colonies than by referring to the immense progress which had been made by New South Wales. If that system had been so substantially bad as it had been represented, those colonies could not possibly have progressed so wonderfully

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as they had in prosperity; they had prospered indeed to an extent quite unknown in the history of modern civilization. New South Wales, which about forty or forty-five years ago was almost unpeopled, had now a population of 150,000, and her exports amounted to between 1,000,000 l. and 2,000,000 l. annually. Mr. Baker, a barrister, who visited Sydney and Melbourne in 1844, in a work published the following year, stated—
"Sidney has a population not far short of 30,000; and though it has one, and sometimes two, of Her Majesty's regiments stationed there, and a great many sailors from all parts of the world are always to he seen in it, yet it is one of the most orderly towns a traveller can visit. I witnessed neither the brawl, nor the drunkenness, nor the shameless prostitution which so often shock and offend our own streets, whilst the only beggars I met were the two blind men previously mentioned. Another proof of the prevalent order of the town, is the general decorum observed on the sabbath. On the whole, great credit is due to the authorities for their excellent government of a population amongst whom might be expected much disorder and unseemly immorality."
The right hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) had described the system of transportation to be productive of insecurity of life and property in the colonies; but if they referred to the evidence of the Rev. Mr. Fry, in the papers on the Table of the House, they would find that he states—
"I gladly declare that the statements in that paper (a paper in closed) of the wonderful tranquillity, security, and good order of the colony of Van Diemen's Land, are completely true, and that the condition of the emancipists—tickets of leave and probation pass holders—is not inferior to that of persons in the same stations and occupations in England or elsewhere; that the presence of convicts has not a seriously demoralising effect upon the habits and manners of the free inhabitants, male or female; and that instances of reformation and of respectable conduct in the convicts are very common, and delightful to witness."
And again—
"As a proof of the benefits of transportation, I may mention that I have married above one hundred discharged convicts within the past year, and that I believe the great majority of them are living in a condition equal to that of persons in similar stations in England."
He (Mr. Hope) quoted Mr. Fry because he considered him the best possible witness, as being himself an opponent and not a supporter of the existing system of convict discipline. Taking, then, into account the comparative advantages of both systems, he did not think a case had been made out to justify the total abolition of transportation. Before abandoning the system of transportation, he thought they
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should have tried the effect of a new and improved system of convict discipline in connexion with it; and for that purpose the Government in fact had found ready prepared, had they chosen to avail themselves of it, the colony of North Australia, by means of which they might at once have effected what he admitted was required, the relief of Van Diemen's Land from immediate pressure: that done, he saw no reason why its prospects should not revive, believing, as he did, that our Australian colonies had arisen to their present state of prosperity, not in spite of, but in consequence of their foundation as penal settlements. In conclusion, he would say that he did not find fault with the Government for endeavouring to effect a change; but his object was to forewarn them, for forewarned was forearmed. The fact was, let them adopt what course they would, they must do so only as a choice of difficulties, and a choice of most enormous difficulties. It was one of the consequences of crime that it entailed not only upon those who were immediately affected by its commission, or who were to be punished for its committal, the direct evils which flowed from it; but, apparently as an inducement to invent means of preventing rather than punishing it, it entailed indirect evils upon society at large, flowing from the very modes themselves by which it was sought to be punished.
MR. E. DENISONhad at one time entertained very great fear, from what had occurred in another place, that transportation was to be abolished, and that after a certain system of probationary punishment in this country offenders were to be sent out as exiles, as free men, in fact, left to their own discretion and without control, and to be lost in the mass of free emigrants. He could hardly express the relief it was to him to find that the plan had been revised, and corrected, and improved, in the manner stated by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey), and that transportation was not to he abolished, but retained, and, it might be hoped, made more effectual; that offenders were to pass from this country, still under the supervision of the law, as convicts with conditional par-dons, or with tickets of leave. The improvement was so great, that after the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. E. Denison) was ready to confess at once that his apprehensions were removed, and that he now contemplated the proposed plan with cordial approval. He should

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say, however, that the experiment which had been tried at Norfolk Island, by Captain Maconochie, had been passed over too lightly. Captain Maconochie had, by acting, as it was described, rather on the hopes than the fears of the convicts, in fact, began his reign by a sort of holiday. The principle laid down was, that the convicts were not to be considered as persons wholly incorrigible, or altogether evilly disposed. Now, it should be remembered that the persons with whom that gentleman had to deal, were men who had been twice convicted and twice sentenced to transportation: first, from this country to Van Diemen's Land; and again, for additional crime, from Van Diemen's Land to Norfolk Island. Should such a scum, which had thus twice been east up to the surface of society, be designated as men not to be considered altogether evilly-disposed persons? He disagreed with the hon. Member for Southwark (Sir W. Molesworth), who had stated on the previous evening that transportation had no terror for people in this country. That hon. Baronet laid great stress upon the report of the Committee appointed in 1837; but that Committee allowed that "the average amount of pain inflicted upon offenders by a sentence of transportation, was very considerable;" and that "in the rural districts it was regarded with terror." As to the objection of its unequal or uncertain operation, that defect would apply to all punishments that could be devised. The hon. Baronet made much of the great names on that Committee; but the report could hardly be offered to the House with their united weight. In 1837, the Committee sat fourteen times, but Lord J. Russell attended only once, and Sir R. Peel only twice; in 1838, they sat eleven times, and Sir R. Peel attended but once, and Lord J. Russell not once. At one sitting, only five Members were present, and at several there were only six; so that, under such circumstances, he did not think the report of that Committee could be offered to the House as one supported by the united force of all the important names attached to it. As to the necessity of retaining the punishment of transportation, in the papers before the House there would be found a despatch from Mr. Gladstone to Sir C. Fitzroy, dated May the 7th, 1846, in which it was stated—
"Public opinion has demanded and Parliament has enacted the abolition of the punishment of death in almost all cases, except treason, murder, and the infliction of wounds with a murderous
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intention. Hence the importance of an effective secondary punishment has become greater than at any former period. Yet, transportation is the only such punishment to which it has been found practicable to resort. For the present, at least, it forms an indispensable part and adjunct of the penal code in its mitigated form. By doing away with transportation, the United Kingdom would be deprived of the only effective secondary punishment, in reliance on which the punishment of death had been discontinued."
The opinion of Mr. Baron Alderson had been cited, as unfavourable to transportation; but this is what that learned Judge said—
"I look upon transportation as a proper punishment to be retained. It is a balance of evils, and the less evil is in retaining it."
Lord Denman's opinion against dispensing with transportation, was well known. Mr. Justice Erie gave it as his opinion—
"I think transportation has a strong effect in repressing crime, and is more penal than imprisonment here is ever likely to be. The dread of transportation has appeared to be in proportion to the intelligence of the prisoner;"
—a very important matter, now that we were proposing to extend education. The opinions of Mr. Justice Wightman, Mr. Baron Parke, Mr. Justice Patteson, Mr. Justice Maule, Mr. Baron Rolfe, and several of the Irish Judges, might all be cited to the same effect, in favour of transportation as a punishment much dreaded by criminals. The Lord Justice Clerk of Scotland
—"regarded it as a restraint of the greatest possible weight on the great bulk of mankind. …. In some instances the effects of transportation seemed to be the immediate and complete repression of the crimes for which it was inflicted. I mention in Scotland the acts of violence and rioting by workmen in 1842, and railway rioting with great and inhuman violence in the spring of 1846. Sentences of transportation in two or three appropriate and bad cases, at once and immediately in a most remarkable manner repressed all such outrages.….I believe nothing could compensate for the abolition of the punishment of transportation.…. I am firmly impressed with the conviction, that imprisonment generally is a punishment which has no terror for the bulk of offenders, and does not operate in deterring others from crime."
Lord Cockburn and Lord Moncrieff expressed similar sentiments. In Ireland, the Judges had delivered similar opinions. Baron Pennefather said, he did not think the punishment of transportation ought to be abolished, as it was absolutely necessary to the preservation of life and property in Ireland; and Chief Justice Doherty and Baron Lefroy had spoken to the same effect. There was only one subject upon which he had to express any difference of

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opinion between himself and his right hon. Friend. It was with regard to the ticket-of-leave men, and those receiving conditional pardons; and he probably should not say that even upon that point there was a difference of opinion. But he could not help thinking that his right hon. Friend ought to direct his attention to that branch of the question, with a view to its improvement. A convict, such as the plan proposed to give unlimited freedom to, would be almost a free agent. He would refer to the opinions given by persons conversant with the condition of the penal colonies, and particularly that of a gentleman who had been in the position of Comptroller General, Mr. Hampton, who, in a report dated the 26th October, 1846, had stated that he thought it would be well if the conditional pardon could be made revocable for the future on the arrival of the convict at the colony, for some of the persons most highly recommended on going out, were found after their arrival to be amongst the very worst. Many of those recommended convicts were persons who had made themselves useful in the prison, and exhibited great symptoms of penitence and good behaviour; but so soon as they got their freedom they gave loose again to their propensities. He thought that a strict control ought to be kept over those convicts. Bad men might congregate together on their passage out, and lay plans for keeping together after their arrival and settling themselves in the towns. He thought that a plan somewhat similar to that adopted in the case of the boys sent to Parkhurst prison, might be extended to the convicts. The boys were sent out under the charge of superintendents, and were apprenticed out; but a careful supervision was still kept over them. A similar sort of apprenticeship or hiring out might be adopted with the men, and by that means a supervision could be maintained over their actions and proceedings. They could be prevented from congregating in the towns, and compelled to disperse into the country. In a despatch from Port Philip, dated November 19, 1846, it was stated that so great was the want of labour, that a distribution of 299 men among employers had scarcely made any impression on the demand for servants. Another communication urged that if a sufficient supply of free labour could not be sent, the convicts might be sent again; and the writer, though looking with repugnance on the old system, expressed the
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firm belief that the results would be in three years to restore the prosperity of the colony, to revive the land fund, and, through that, the means of free emigration. If a system of apprenticeship were established, a sum of 30,000 l. or 40,000 l.. might be raised by fees paid for the use of the convict labour. In a communication which he had lately received from a gentleman of considerable weight and influence in the colony—he meant Mr. Hamilton—that gentleman had said, "If you cannot send us a sufficiency of free labour, in Heaven's name send us convict labour, or raise a. land fund and apply it to the promotion of a system of free emigration." Now, there were three parties whose interests were involved in the measure of transportation— the mother country, the convicts themselves, and the colony. To each of these parties he conceived it would be most advantageous. He thought it would be bad to put out of joint a system which seemed to have worked so well; but he agreed that it was very difficult for the Government to lay down any specific rule. After what his right hon. Friend had said on the preceding night, he was satisfied to leave the matter entirely in his hands, and he trusted that transportation would be made an effectual arm of the law.
SIR J. PAKINGTONfelt confident that the Government had brought forward this question with the best possible intention, but, at the same time, must remark—and he did so with regret—that the Government had brought forward this great question in a hasty, premature, incomplete, and incautious manner. The hon. Gentleman did not seem to have given the Government that consideration which it so eminently required. Their course had been a precipitate one, and they had justly subjected themselves to grave censure. In order that any change in the present system should be effectual, it ought to be fully developed at the time it was brought forward; for those changes of opinion on the part of the Government in the main features of so important a scheme, were calculated to do it irreparable mischief, and to make men distrust its utility. He agreed with his right hon. Friend (Sir G. Grey) that it was impossible to retain anything so demoralising and so thoroughly disgraceful to a civilized country as the present state of affairs in our penal colonies. He must say, however, that he did not think the probation system had had a fair trial, for it was brought into operation in Van Diemen's

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Land under the most unfortunate circumstances. But at the same time he must express his firm belief that no case had been made out against transportation as a whole; because, admitting that the former system of assignment was bad, and that the probation system had not been successful, he did not think it therefore followed that the transportation system ought to be altogether abandoned, or that it was not capable of being made an efficient punishment if conducted under proper regulations. He therefore regretted that Government had taken the course they had done; and he must especially disapprove of their attempting to effect a change, as in this case, in one of the most difficult and delicate duties of Government on the sole authority of the Crown, and without appealing to the sanction of Parliament. He did not think that upon this point the right hon. Baronet had acted up to his own professions as contained in his letter to Lord Grey, at the conclusion of which there was a short but important paragraph to the effect that if this new system were permanently adopted, it would be necessary to embody it in a Bill to be submitted to Parliament; and that it would be expedient to revise those statutes which made offenders liable to transportation. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman in both these positions, and he wished to know why they had been abandoned. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would say that this proposed plan was only intended as an experiment, and not as a permanent system; but, in the first place, he considered that a change of this magnitude ought to be brought forward by the Government on their own responsibility, after full and mature consideration, and that they ought to propound it as a settled system; and therefore he could not admit that it ought to be lightly dealt with as an experiment. But more than that, he would say that neither in the speech of Earl Grey in another place, nor in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman last night, was there any indication that this plan was intended to he of the nature of an experiment. But, strong as his opinion was on this part of the subject, he felt still more strongly on the second point alluded to in the paragraph—that before any change was made, it was the duty of the Government to revise the penal code of the country, and particularly those laws by which offenders were made liable to transportation. For want of such revision, he begged of the House to consider
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what would be the position of all persons holding judicial situations in the country. The noble Lord the Member for Hertford, in his able speech last night—in every word of which he concurred—very strongly dwelt upon this difficulty. What would be the meaning of a sentence of transportation under the proposed system but an idle form of words? Those unfortunate classes who were exposed to it would soon come to know that its real meaning was, that they should either be kept at home, with a prospect of free pardon after a limited period, or, as the other alternative, that they should be sent out to the colonies, where their families would follow them, and where they would be placed, he feared, in a better condition than that of the honest labourer who remained at home. He thought the right hon. Baronet, in his speech last night, had dwelt exclusively upon the effect of the punishment on the individual punished; and he did not sufficiently advert to its important influence in deterring others from committing crime. Whatever might be the faults of the transportation system, whatever doubts might be entertained as to its effects upon the individual himself, he had no hesitation in saying—and he had often witnessed it in his own experience—that it had the greatest possible effect in deterring others; and he did not believe that the plan which the Government now proposed could possibly exercise a terror over the class that were in danger of becoming criminals, equal to that of transportation. With regard to this plan itself, it divided itself into three parts. The first part was, that for periods extending from six to eighteen months, convicts should be kept in prison. The first portion of the sentence might be inflicted in this country. He thought they had reason to complain that there had been such a want of explanation in the speech of the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) of the details of the proposed system of prison discipline, or as to the means at the disposal of the Government for carrying it out. The noble Lord (Lord Mahon) had last night calculated the number of criminals annually sentenced to transportation at 6,000; the hon. Gentleman the late Under Secretary (Mr. Hope) at 5,000; he would assume the number to be 4,000. Now, what was the extent of prison accommodation in this country? Referring to the valuable document for which they were indebted to the noble Lord (Lord Mahon), which comprised the answers to the circular sent by the right

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hon. Baronet to the prisons of Great Britain, it appeared that out of 133 prisons in England, there were 23 where there was no efficient system of discipline at all, and that there were 24 where the separate system prevailed. Of that system, after the experience they had had of it at Pentonville and elsewhere, he must record his conviction that it was the best that had yet been devised, and one that was capable, if duly carried out, of being rendered highly beneficial to the country. For his own part, he wholly repudiated the idea which was often advanced, that offenders were not to be reformed in prison. Let those who doubted that they could, read the history of Sarah Martin. He repeated, however, that he did not see how the right hon. Baronet was to provide the proposed prison discipline for the number of offenders who would have to be annually subjected to it. The right hon. Baronet had himself calculated that there was accommodation for 1,000. He (Sir J. Pakington) had carefully examined the returns, and he found that there were extra cells under the separate system for 1,510, exclusive of those at Pentonville and Mil-bank. [Sir G. GREY: And Parkhurst] Making the utmost allowance, he did not see how it would be possible to accommodate 2,000; yet the lowest average of offenders transported yearly for long or short terms was 4,000. In Scotland, it appeared the accommodation would be deficient, as compared with the want, to the extent of 702 prisoners. He feared, then, that the accommodation would be wholly deficient, and the separate system was one which required to be carried out in perfection. So much for the first stage of punishment proposed by the right hon. Baronet. Towards what he would call the second stage, he confessed that he entertained the most unqualified dislike; and here again he must complain of the want of information as to the means there were of putting it in force. It was most important to know what proportion of the whole sentence was to be passed in this second stage, so that when there was an addition of from 4,000 to 5,000 men annually, some idea might be formed of the whole number that might be working on these penal gangs at one time. It had been well urged, too, by the noble Lord the Member for Hertford, that it was essential to guard against the displacement of honest, independent labour, by this penal labour on the public works. Who, again, could guarantee
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that some of the worst evils of the old system would not be reproduced, and that those who might otherwise have been reclaimed would not become depraved by working in these penal gangs? He regretted also to have heard the right hon. Baronet state last night that there was an intention of reverting to an extension of the hulk system, more especially after the exposure that had resulted from the recent inquiries, at the instance of the hon. Member for Fins-bury. It was a system almost as bad as that at Van Diemen's Land. As to what was proposed for the last stage or period of punishment, he confessed that he could not understand it. The right hon. Baronet had not been distinct on the subject. His letter to Earl Grey said nothing of tickets of leave, but spoke only of conditional pardons; his speech of last night spoke of both. Thus it seemed some of the bad features of the old transportation system were to be perpetuated. It was radically wrong that these persons should go out to the colonies with advantages of position which were denied to the independent labourer. He regretted to have had to make these observations. He had made them in no spirit of hostility to the Government. But he must express a hope that, after the unanimously expressed opinion of the Judges, the Government would not persevere in pressing so great and important a change of a system, solely on the authority of the Crown, and without calling for the sanction of the Legislature. If they did, he should be compelled to vote against it.
MR. HUMEreminded the House that the real subject before them related not to the wide subject of transportation at large, but to the superintendence of three Government prisons, Pentonville, Millbank, and Parkhurst, by one class of individuals only. In the principle of that Bill he entirely agreed. One of the great evils of prison discipline in this country was, that in every prison there was found a different system; and his opinion was that it would be a great advantage to place the prisons under one superintendence. He had always contended that there ought to be a Minister of Justice to regulate not only all courts but all prisons. There was no civilized country upon earth in which the gaols were so grossly neglected as in England. Though he greatly objected to the system upon which transportation proceeded, he was not opposed to transportation itself as a punishment. The principle of the present

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Bill had his entire assent; and whenever it came to be considered in Committee, he should willingly assist in trying to improve it. In 1840, when transportation was put an end to, he expressed doubts as to the expediency of that measure; and hon. Members could not have forgotten that instantly on the announcement of that important step, meetings were hold in the colonies, and protests were entered not only against the evidence on which it was founded, but against the conclusions at which the Committee had arrived. He repeated that he did not object to transportation as a mode of punishment, but he protested against the system under which it was carried out. This country had colonies well suited for purposes of penal settlement; and it appeared to him that we lost all the benefit of those colonies by the mode in which the punishment of transportation was carried into execution. Amongst the evils of the system he might mention the great powers with which governors were invested; and therefore transportation had long been an insufficient punishment, for governors might mitigate or remit it as they thought proper. Capital punishments had recently been put down, and were we now to get rid of all secondary punishments? To this matter there were three parties—the British community, the colonies, and the criminals. Now, he would ask, were we to disregard the effect of transportation on the colonies merely because some abuses, which he contended were remediable, had crept into the mode of administering the law. The separate system would require 6,000 or 7,000 distinct cells, in order to give the plan a fair trial. It ought not to be proceeded with without a fair trial, though in this country it rarely happened that fair trials were given to anything. In the last five years the gross number of offenders arrested was 138,000, exclusive of 318,000 summary convictions, making in the whole somewhere about half a million in the course of the five years. 5,000 was the average number for whom accommodation would require to be provided if this course of discipline was adopted. Here then a difficulty at once met him in the face. There was not sufficient accommodation to adopt the separate system. It must fail, therefore, because there was not the means of carrying it into execution. So much for the first stage. With reference to the effect of imprisonment in reforming offenders, he had questioned persons who had
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been governors of gaols for eighteen or twenty years; he had questioned the late Alderman Wood and other magistrates of London, who had given great attention to the subject, and one and all of them were doubtful and distrustful of the possibility of reformation taking place in prisons. They all agreed that a change of locality was necessary to give them a chance of reformation. It would be quite impossible to carry out the separate system for all the prisoners who would require to be provided for, if transportation was abolished; and, such being the case, what would be the effect of so many men congregating in gangs? The result would be, that if there was a bad man in the gang, he would contaminate all the rest. He would ask too what would be the risk if circumstances should lead to outrages in this country, with so many convicts in it? Unless the scheme had some overbearing and great advantages, these facts ought to arrest the attention of Government. He feared also that it would require 10,000 or 15,000 additional soldiers to act as guards to the prisons. The scheme was altogether crude and ill-digested; and it would be impossible to carry it out. He gave the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) and the Government credit for the best intentions; but he was confident they had not considered the question in all its bearings. If they were unable to provide for the convicts in the second stage, what was to be done with them in the third? If they were landed in some distant colony, and exposed to all the evils of working in gangs, where one bad man could make many as bad as himself, it was impossible for them to escape contamination; and all the advantages of separate confinement would be lost the instant they were associated in gangs. There was an absolute necessity for some line of demarcation between the different grades of punishment, and between sentences of seven years and fourteen years, and transportation for life. He begged the House to remember that New South Wales grew rich in consequence of the system of transportation, when the numbers were such that they could be absorbed into her population; and that but for this very system she would not now be sending over her 20,000,000 1b. of wool annually as she did at present to this country. As to the argument respecting the effect of the punishment on different constitutions, he thought the objection could not be remedied, for it was common to all punishments, as crime

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was common to all constitutions. There was no disinclination to receive more convicts. Mr. Boyd, one of the largest farmers in the island, declared he was prepared to take any number of them, and there was a much greater chance of reforming them than at home. Let them look to the effects of separate imprisonment. He understood that in Perth prison, where the separate system was carried out, the recommitments were 67 per cent. From a petition from Liverpool, which had been laid on the Table of that House, he found that within the last seven years there had been convicted 32,000 males, and 19,000 females, total 51,000; of whom, under seventeen years, there were 5,000; once convicted, 25,900; five times and upwards, 25,000. Now, just fancy in a society like Liverpool, what injury such a population of criminals must inflict, especially upon the rising generation. He had been informed by a gentleman that there was a prisoner in Tothil-fields prison who had been 180 times convicted. He found, that in the average of all the recommitments in England and France, the difference was not more than one per cent. In the prisons of France the average was thirty-three; in the galleys, thirty-two; in Belgium, thirty-three; and in England thirty-three. In England, the number of recommitments ranged from 47 per cent in London, down to 16 per cent in the distant and less populous districts. All these facts would tend to show that the assignment system was better for society and for the criminal himself. It was known that many who went abroad under the assignment system died wealthy, and left property to their families. Why, then, should we run the risk of contaminating our whole people, and retaining such a mass of vice in this country? He had always thought there was a negligence in suppressing crime in this country, and he had been anxious to see what good was derived from the establishment of the London police, which he believed to be an excellent body, and on an excellent system. Looking to the results, he had a right to affirm that a strong case was made out in favour of a good preventive police. Much had been said with respect to the state of things in Norfolk Island; but the system of Captain Maconochie, as a means of reformation, had failed, because the officer who succeeded him was incompetent and unfit. He hoped Government would reconsider this great and important subject, and correct the abuses to
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which it was liable, and spread the convicts over the colony, as fast and as wide as they were able. He would vote for the present Bill; but in Committee he would recommend certain alterations, particularly in the number of the Commissioners, and he hoped Government would bring in a Bill to point out what changes they intended to introduce into the system as speedily as possible.
MR. HAWEShad listened from the beginning to the end of this debate to the various speeches of hon. Members, and two considerations had pressed themselves very strongly on his mind. In the first place, he was surprised to find that the plan of the Government was regarded exclusively with reference to the interests of the mother country, and that no one had spoken of the mischievous and deadly influence which the system of transportation exercised over the colonies. If they could have wished to demoralise and degrade them, they could not have conceived a system more calculated to effect that end. It was no answer to him to advance the material prosperity of those colonies, unless at the same time they could show something like a progressive advance in intelligence, religion, and morality; and, so far from that being the case, all the accounts they had received of the effects of transportation, while it existed, in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land, and, lastly, the appalling accounts from Norfolk Island, showed them that such a system must be most injurious to the interests of those colonies. The hon. Baronet on the other side of the House, who had spoken that evening so ably on this subject, had made one great admission. He said that the first stages of punishment of a convict ought to be passed in this country. But that was a distinct feature of the plan before the House; and the convict who went from hence after that probation would be in exactly the same position as the convict in the colony who had obtained his ticket of leave. [To prove the demoralising effects of transportation upon the colonies, the hon. Gentleman quoted an extract from a letter written by the Bishop of Tasmania; he also adduced the petition of 1,750 inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land against it as an instance of its failure as a punishment and its degrading tendency.] The hon. Member for Montrose had called for a well-regulated system of transportation, in which he was backed by the hon. Baronet; but for the last seventeen years

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experiment after experiment had been made, and successive attempts set on foot to modify that punishment, without success. The most stringent measures had been adopted to maintain discipline in New South Wales, but had failed to effect that object. Sir George Arthur, in a despatch written in 1836, expressed the most decided opinion as to the impossibility of effecting any further improvement in the system, so far as superintendence and severe discipline were concerned. It should be borne in mind by those who objected to the plan proposed by the Government, that they were exposed to considerable difficulty in continuing the system of transportation. Colony after colony had petitioned the Home Government against its continuance. Already Australia and New South Wales were excluded from its operation; and a strong popular feeling against it prevailed in Van Diemen's Land. In a memorial which had been forwarded to the Home Government by the operatives of Sydney, reference was made to the improved state of society which had been the consequence of the abolition of transportation to that colony, and great apprehension was expressed as to the evils which might be anticipated from its re-establishment. The memorialists stated that, since transportation ceased, peace, order, and morality had increased in the colony; and they prayed that Government would not run the risk of endangering these advantages by recurring to the system. But suppose that the Government should adopt the suggestion made by some persons, and found a new colony, what securities would there be against a revival of all the evils which now exist? There were none. At present, however, even the site of a new colony was undetermined. That was the scheme proposed by the late Government; but up to the present time the reports furnished showed, that to find a site was attended with difficulty, and that the one proposed was unfitted for the purpose, from the want of water. It had been said that the Judges were generally hostile to the abolition of transportation; but the House should understand that the plan now proposed by the Government as a substitute for that system had never been brought under their notice; and, besides, the opinion of those learned individuals was not of that unqualified nature which it had been represented to be by those who had hitherto spoken on the subject. Many thought that transportation could not be abolished, though
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they thought there might be great amendment, which, as he contended, was the Government plan; and the hon. Baronet had himself admitted that the first stage of penal discipline should he passed in England, which, even on his view, rendered additional accommodation necessary. He was prepared to show that a proper system of imprisonment at home would he more economical and more beneficial than sending the prisoners to New South Wales; and when his hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) talked of recommitments in Scotland, he must remind him that under the system of transportation, such was the crime and repetition of crime in the colony of Now South Wales, that a Colonial Judge described the population as one moving to and from the courts of justice. Mr. Miller, the governor of Glasgow House of Correction, had compared very carefully the expense of the two systems, in the Appendix to the Report on Scottish Prisons:—
"It will be seen that the sums estimated for the transportation, maintenance, and superintendence of 3,980 convicts, being the supposed number for the year ending 31st March, 1847, calculated for the space of four years, the supposed period of detention, amount to no less than 590,2432. 3s. 4d., exclusive of the expense of the convict establishment at Millbank, and a proportion of the expenses of Pentonville and Parkhurst, amounting, as stated in the Appendix, to 44,882 l., which might legitimately be added to the cost of transportation; while the estimated expense of imprisonment of a similar number in this country for the same period, on the separate system, including interest on the cost of erections and every other charge, would be only 302,480 l; showing a saving of 287,763 l. 3s. 4d. in the course of four years, supposing the cost of building to be 100 l. per cell; but 1,200 of the requisite number, viz., those for Scotland, would cost only 75 l. per cell, being a further annual saving of 1,500 l., or for the four years 6,000 l. It will also appear from these estimates that the expense of transportation in the case of 1,200 convicts, the probable number removed from Scotland during a period of four years, the average annual number being 300, is 177,963 l. 11 s. 2d., while the cost of imprisonment, upon a fair calculation, would be only 85,200, showing a gross saving, so far as Scotland is concerned, of 92,763 l. 11 s. 2d., or as much as 19 l. 6s. 6d. per head per annum.
Such were the results of Mr. Miller's careful analysis of the cost of transportation in New South Wales and Van Diemen's Land—undoubtedly as fair an estimate as could be made out; and it substantially confirmed the estimate made by the Transportation Committee in 1837–8. The cost was less in Bermuda and at Gibraltar, where the convict maintained himself by his own labour. Therefore, even in a pecuniary point of view, as a matter of expenditure, the advantage

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was in favour of the penitentiary imprisonment at home. The great value of the system would, however, be (and this effect had already been, in some degree, manifested), that the results would enable them to say, as until recently they could not have said, that the criminal committed to our gaols would, at least, not leave them more demoralised than when he had entered. Hitherto our prison discipline and prisons had been a fruitful source of crime. The exiles sent out from Pentonville to Port Philip, had, when employed in that colony, given the most gratifying proofs of an amended character; they had been found energetic and active labourers; and applications had recently been repeatedly made to send out any number of exiles. The experience gained at Pentonville deserved the most careful consideration. The separate system, superintended as it was, was proved to be safe; and, judging from the recent account of exiles in the district of Port Philip, it had realized all the expectations of its authors. It was upon these convincing proofs of the good effect of the system already tried, that the Government had relied in recommending a further experiment. It was granted that there had existed an urgent necessity to make a great and radical change in the mode of conducting transportation. A new colony had been proposed to be established; but there was no reason for hoping that, in the new they could take any measure to avert the evils which had arisen in the old settlement. It had been considered hopeless to attempt to amend the existing plans. The report of a Committee of the House was in favour of an extension of the system pursued at Pentonville, and the combination of such a system with transportation. The first suggestion of the Committee had been adopted. The assignment system was abolished. The evils of assignment could no longer have been endured. Did the House recollect the frequency and severity of corporal punishment under this system, the power given to the magistrates to inflict it summarily, and for the slightest complaint against a convict? The accounts of the assignment system had all the characteristics of slavery: there was the compulsory labour; the constant infliction of the lash, and the absence of all moral improvement. Against that system there was one general complaint, except from those who benefited by convict labour. Many did derive benefit from that labour, it could not be denied; but those who now
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advocated the revival of that system in the colony, advocated a cruel and degrading system—one he did not believe the House would ever sanction. He hoped the House would feel the pressing difficulties that surrounded the question, and reflect that if they desired to act up to the principles they professed as Christians, it was impossible any longer to continue a system that was a reproach to the national character.
Debate adjourned.

STAGE CARRIAGES DUTIES BILL.
House in Committee on the Stage Carriages Duties Bill.
COLONEL SIBTHORPbegged to direct the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a subject which deeply affected the safety and comfort of Her Majesty's subjects. He had always understood that omnibusses and other public conveyances were prohibited from conveying more than a certain number of passengers; but he had seen, particularly on Sundays, such carriages filled inside, he might venture to say, although he never was in one, to almost suffocation—and the outside packed with individuals to an extent that was truly dangerous; and drawn, too, in many instances, by two miserable animals that were scarcely able to drag the carriage, even if it were, empty. The drivers neither paid regard to the passengers nor to the poor animals, which were compelled to move onward by merciless lashing. He had no hesitation in saying that the language which he had heard these drivers and cads make use of to respectable persons was most disgusting, threatening and alarming, to an extent which ought not to be allowed. The gallant Colonel concluded by expressing a hope that Her Majesty's Government would endeavour to provide a remedy.
MR. PARKERmade a statement on the subject, but the purport did not reach the gallery. He was understood to say that the grievance would be provided for.
MR. HENLEY MR. HENLEY, in referring to this statement, remarked that the hope held out last Session, that the country would be relieved from the burden of upholding a large staff of excisemen, was not likely to be realized, as there seemed to be a disposition to employ the disbanded men in discharging other duties.
Bill went through Committee.
House adjourned at half-past Twelve till Monday.

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Stirling, and Glasgow, for the Repeal of the Bank Charter Act—By Lord Faversham, from Guardians of the Wakefield Union, for the Repeal of the Poor Removal Act.—From Clayton West, and several other places, in favour of the Factories Bill.—By the Bishop of Oxford, from Clergy of Berks, and several other places, in favour of the Clergy Offences Act; and from Hastings, and Cambridge, for the Adoption of Measures for the Suppression of Seduction and Prostitution. — By the Marquess of Normanby, from Worcester, and several other places, for the Enactment of Sanitary Regulations.—From Ministers and Elders of the Presbytery of Dumbarton, against the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors.—From Bradford, in favour of the Government Plan of Education.

IRISH EMIGRATION.
LORD MONTEAGLErose to move for the appointment of a Select Committee,

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on colonisation from Ireland, of which he had given notice. It was impossible to exaggerate the importance of the subject; it was one which, if properly carried out, would, in his opinion, be of incalculable benefit to that country as well as to Great Britain and to the colonies. He might perhaps be blamed for bringing forward a measure of such magnitude and importance at the present late period of the Session; but their Lordships would remember that he had given his notice many weeks back, and had postponed it, because he feared his motive might have been mistaken or misinterpreted, if he had sought to bring on his discussion pending their Lordships' deliberation on that most important measure, the Irish Poor Law. He did not propose emigration as a substitute for that Bill; still less did he seek to arrest the progress of the Poor Law by the Parliamentary tactics of interposing irrelevant matter. It was his own sincere conviction that a large measure of emigration was required in order to render the working of the Poor Law safe, or even practicable. But it was also expedient taken per se. Long before Parliament had lent any countenance to a Poor Law for Ireland—long before the out-door relief of the able-bodied had met with any acceptance—he had supported the necessity of applying a large measure of colonisation to the then existing state of things in Ireland. Nor did he stand alone in this opinion. He would prove to their Lordships that it had been repeatedly laid down by some of the most practical and eminent Parliamentary authorities, that it was essential to the success of any poor-law experiment in Ireland that a system of colonisation should be combined with it. It was also laid down that the measure was in itself wise and politic. The question was one which he brought forward in no spirit of hostility to the Government. It had never been so considered in former times. In Lord Liverpool's Government, a Motion like the present had not been considered as an attack on the Administration; nor yet under the Government of the Duke of Wellington. Like the Poor Law, it was considered neutral ground, on which all could meet in discussion who wished to improve the condition of the people. The Colonial Office ought not to take offence. While he had every reliance on the intentions of the noble Earl at the head of the Colonial Office, he did not feel equally confident that there existed within that
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department the full power of working out those practical details by which the question was encumbered. It was not possible that they could do so. Burdened as they were with business, having to deal with a population of between five and six millions of people, speaking different languages, obedient to different systems of law, overworked as they were, and undermanned, it was but natural that a question not immediately arising out of the ordinary and diurnal affairs of the Colonial Office should be undervalued or set aside. Besides which, the bearing of colonisation on home interests scarcely came within their range of duty. He would endeavour to avoid taking any course on the present occasion which could raise exaggerated expectations in the minds of parties out of doors, regarding the extent to which colonisation could safely be carried, or the amount of benefit which could be reaped from it. But, although it might not be wise to exaggerate these expectations, it was both wise and the duty of Parliament to see that emigration, on whatever scale it might be conducted, was conducted prudently and successfully. Whatever views he might entertain on the subject of emigration, he did not dream of recommending any thing to supersede the system of voluntary emigration which had been carried on, and was now in progress on a scale and to an extent which, a few years ago, would have been deemed incredible. Between the years 1825 and 1846, no fewer than 1,479,000 persons had emigrated from the United Kingdom to the British colonies and to the United States of America. In a great majority of instances, this emigration had been equally to the benefit of the mother country, of the colony, and of the emigrants themselves, But various and very important considerations suggested themselves as arising out of the peculiarities of this vast emigration. Out of the enormous amount which he had mentioned, he found that nearly one-half of the emigrants had settled in the United States of America. The question immediately arose, What was the cause that led so great a proportion of British emigrants to settle in a foreign country, under a foreign Government, in preference to fixing their destinies within the colonial possessions of our own empire? He believed that there were reasons discoverable to account for this course of proceeding—assignable motives, which a great and enlightened system of colonisation was perfectly capa-

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ble of removing. Nor was the question to be determined exclusively one between our colonies and the United States. A further and a still more important question remained to be considered—a question all-important to this part of the United Kingdom. Emigration was now absolutely demanded by the present distressed state of the Irish population; and the question was simply, whether that stream of emigration ought to be directed to the shores of this country, or towards our colonial possessions? The tendency to immigration to this country on the part of the Irish people must undoubtedly continue till their condition was raised to the level of that of their English neighbours, or till a colonial emigration were encouraged. Let the population of both countries be placed upon a level, and from that moment a stop would be put to an immigration from Ireland which now threatened to destroy the comforts of the working population of England. The truth and importance of this proposition did not rest wholly on his authority; it was laid down, as an undeniable fact, in one of the late Mr. Wilmot Horton's excellent reports. In 1826 a Committee of the House of Commons reported as follows:—
"The question of emigration from Ireland has been decided by the population itself. What remains is the question whether emigration shall be turned to the improvement of the colonies, or allowed to take what must otherwise be its inevitable course, to deluge Great Britain with poverty and wretchedness, and gradually, hut certainly, to equalize the state of the English and Irish poor. One of two results appears inevitable; the Irish population must be raised towards the standard of the English, or the English depressed towards the Irish. The question whether an extensive plan of emigration shall or shall not be adopted resolves itself into the single point, whether the wheat-fed population of Great Britain shall or shall not be supplanted by the potato-fed population of Ireland."
This, which was true in 1826, was equally true at the present day. Indeed the existing calamity rendered it still more evident. Neither was Mr. Wilmot Horton's report the only authority on which he was enabled to rely. The same question had again, at a subsequent period, been made a subject of Parliamentary inquiry. In the Report on the State of Ireland in 1830 was to be found the following passage:—
"Emigration, as a remedial measure, is more applicable to Ireland than to any other part of the empire. The main cause which produces the influx of Irish labourers into Great Britain is undoubtedly the higher rate of wages which prevails
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in one island than in the other. Emigration from Great Britain, if effectual as a remedy, must tend to raise the rate of wages here, and thus to increase the emigration of Irish labourers. Colonisation, on the contrary, by raising the rate of wages in the latter country, diminishes the inducement, and lessons the number of Irish labourers in the British market."
The subject of emigration was specifically introduced into the House of Commons by his noble Friend the present Secretary of State for the Colonies, when acting on behalf of Lord Grey's Government in 1830. The measures introduced, and the discussions which had taken place in 1831, fully proved how unanimous was the opinion entertained in Parliament of the necessity of accompanying any Poor Law for Ireland with a large and well-arranged system of colonisation. In 1831 the noble Lord now at the head of the Colonial Department expressed himself as follows:—
"Before any measure could be introduced for the permanent relief of the poor in Ireland, it would be absolutely necessary to relieve that country from its superabundance of population. … The transfer of a part of our superabundant labourers to the colonies would be equally beneficial to all parties: to the labourer, by diminishing the overwhelming competition under which he now suffered; to the settler in the colonies, by affording him the means of more effectually cultivating his land; and both to this country and the colony, by relieving much of the distress now existing in the former, and by adding to the productive industry of the latter."
The noble Lord was supported in these views by the gallant Officer who had preceded him in the Colonial Office, and in support of his argument he was fortified by the evidence of Sir George Murray, who in. the same debate had stated that—
"He believed that emigration was the best mode of relieving distress at home, and of giving the overplus of population a facility of transfer to another country, where he was certain they could establish themselves in comfort and independence, and secure to their descendants prosperity and happiness."
His next authority was one which he was sure would carry with it the greatest weight. It was that of Lord Ashburton, who, as well acquainted with colonial as with British interests, expressed himself in 1831 to the following effect:—
"He thought that the future welfare of this country, and of her labouring population, depended on the solution of the question of emigration. … It was said that the poor should be left to emigrate if they thought fit. The answer was, that the poor, if left to themselves, could not emigrate. They had not the means to go across the Atlantic, however anxious they might be to escape from pauperism here to wealth and independence in America."

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Nor were these opinions abandoned in later times. On the contrary, they wore repeated and confirmed with the weight derived from further study and additional experience. Upon the occasion of Mr. Charles Buller's Motion upon this subject, in 1843, he found the noble Lord now at the head of the Colonial Department thus expressing himself:—
"His opinion was strongly fixed that we were, it is true, on the right road, but that we had not made all the progress that was desirable. … He thought it of the greatest importance that emigration should be encouraged to a much greater extent than at present; he believed it was in the power of Her Majesty's Ministers to take measures that would give much greater extension to the system than it now possessed. Further inquiry on the subject, however conducted, could not be without great advantage—the inquiries of a Committee had already been productive of great advantage… Further inquiry by Committee or a Commission might be advantageous with a view to the selection of the most effectual means of giving increased vigour and extension to the existing system."
The evidence to which he had hitherto referred bore on the question of emigration generally; but there was evidence equally strong, and applicable specially to Ireland. The Poor Law Commission, over which his most rev. Friend (the Archbishop of Dublin) presided, had not overlooked this question. He begged permission to read the following passage from the Third Report of the Poor Law Commissioners:—
"While we feel that relief should be provided for the impotent, we consider it due to the community, and to the labouring class in particular, that such of the able-bodied as may be unable to find employment should he secured support only through emigration, or as a preliminary to it. It is thus only that the market of labour can he relieved from the weight that is upon it, or the labourer be raised from his present prostrate state. Nor can we hope in the meanwhile to see such content, peace, and order established, as can alone encourage enterprise, or draw the capital of England to those commercial enterprises for which Ireland, if pacified, would afford so wide a field."
If he were not fearful of delaying their Lordships further, he would refer to the authority of Mr. George Nicholls, of Mr. Senior, and of Mr. Cornwall Lewis, which was equally strong, and to the same effect. He had thus exhibited one chain of evidence unbroken during twenty years. Or the part of every one, statesman or philosopher, who had considered the question, he had shown a concurrence in the same conclusion, namely, the adoption and recommendation of systematic colonisation as a remedial measure of practical urgency. Nor were colonial authorities of
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great weight wanting. In 1839, Lord Durham expressed himself as follows:—
"It is far from my purpose to discourage emigration to the North American colonies. On the contrary, I am satisfied that the chief value of those colonies to the mother country consists in their presenting a field where millions, even of those who are distressed at home, might be established in plenty and happiness. All the witnesses whose evidence I have quoted, are warm advocates of systematic emigration. I object, along with them, only to such emigration as now takes place without forethought, preparation, method, or system of any kind."
Lord Sydenham entertained, generally speaking, similar opinions. In his despatch to Lord John Russell, in 1841, he stated that—
"Emigration, during the last year has greatly exceeded that of the last few years. The emigrants appear to have been universally well con-ducted, and several of them are possessed of considerable property. The great bulk have settled in these provinces, and there 4s every reason to expect that they will do well. … Emigration to America, however, holds out no brilliant prospects of rapid affluence; but, at the same time, it is secure, under proper management, from the risk of equally rapid failure. It is no lottery with a few exorbitant prizes, but a secure and certain investment, in which a prudent and sensible man may safely embark. It may be affirmed, that no industrious man ever failed, on this continent, to make an easy livelihood by his labour; that no capitalist with a fair share of agricultural knowledge, who has chosen to invest his money in purchase of land, has had reason to complain of insufficient return. Almost any labourer, with good conduct and perseverance, may in a few years become a landholder. These are results of perseverance, industry, and steadiness."
It was in the spirit of these opinions, and of these recommendations, that he brought forward his present Motion for a Committee upon the subject. He had submitted to their Lordships a series of precedents, in favour of which would be found the authority of Members of both sides of the House; for the question was one which had fortunately never been mixed up with party consideration or party distinctions. Another branch of the subject remained to be considered; and he would now proceed to state further grounds on which he thought that the House was bound to consider the question with peculiar earnestness, at the present time. Had there been no failure in the potato crop—were they now in the same position in which they had stood three years ago—he believed that their Lordships could hardly fail to honour with their support the Motion he submitted for their adoption. But how did the case actually stand? There was not one argument which he had heretofore used, there

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was not one authority on which he relied, that did not apply, à multo fortiori, to the present calamitous state of things. Let him illustrate his meaning by a very simple supposition. Were they suddenly to see a population augmenting in any definite proportion, or the food of a population decreasing in the same ratio, what would be the natural result? Suppose the diminution which had actually taken place in food to amount to a loss of one-fourth of the supply, the effect would practically he the same as if the population to be fed had increased by one-fourth. In such a juncture, the providing of a larger territory from which the supply of food was in future to he drawn, would be the natural remedy; and the readiest way in which that object could be effected was undoubtedly by emigration and colonisation. No doubt this process was going forward at present; but could their Lordships or the public rely on mere private and voluntary emigration as a means of escape from the difficulties with which they were now beset? He believed that they could not. He would go further, and say, that in his opinion emigration, as it was now conducted, so far from solving present difficulties, tended to augment them. It was full of danger. It was stated that in different districts of Ireland the greater proportion of the emigration which had gone on had been from the class of the employers, rather than from that of the employed, and had not produced any effect, either in increasing the market for labour, or in lessening the competition for land. He was far from saying that it would be a wise, or a just, or a prudent course to "shovel out pauper emigrants" from Ireland on the shores of our colonial possessions. At the same time, he must impress upon the minds of their Lordships, that, if they wished to promote the well-being of Ireland, emigration must not be confined to those who displaced more capital than they removed numbers. If parties, by selling their farms, could, with the money they received, improve their condition in any of our colonies, let them by all means do so; but let not emigration be restricted to that class, neither let their Lordships take it for granted, with some reasoners, that emigration was required throughout all Ireland, or was required universally in the same degree. No two countries could differ more completely than many districts of Ireland differed from each other. The remedy which might be indispensable
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at Glenties in Donegal, where a population of 43,000 resided on an area valued at 16,000 l, could not determine the case of Dunshaughlin, where the population was hut 20,000 on a rated valuation of 118,000 l. In the latter case it could not he held that emigration was more necessary, as a remedy, than in the most improved parts of England. There were also other districts in which it was not required; then let not their Lordships he alarmed at the supposed necessity of a gigantic emigration, displacing 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 of people, at an expense of 13,000,000 l or 14,000,000 l. That, at least, was not his proposition. It is not a positive but a relative number that should be removed; not the actual population residing on a given area, but the portion of that population which was proved to be in excess. A very small excess of labour will beat down wages throughout a large district; the removal of that excess will raise the condition of the entire class of labourers. Emigration will also be found to contain within itself a self-adjusting principle of correction; it will only come into play to the extent and where it is actually required. This principle is strikingly illustrated by the English emigration under the Poor Law. This emigration had, from June 1835 to December 1845 amounted to 13,526 persons, and had been carried on at a cost of 81,182 l. Of these emigrants, 4,888 persons were sent out from the county of Norfolk alone in one year, at a cost of 15,198 l.; and of the whole number, 10,686 persons were sent from the four counties of Norfolk, Kent, Sussex, and Suffolk. These four counties had only a population of 1,400,000 persons; while in the counties of Westmoreland, Northumberland, Durham, Lancaster, and Stafford, with a population of 2,740,000, not one emigrant was sent out; and only fifty-two persons had emigrated from Yorkshire, containing a population of 1,600,000 persons. He had now been speaking of emigration by rates; but he could not say that he anticipated that in Ireland the result would be quite so varied and contrasted; indeed, he apprehended that, generally speaking, the numbers who went out would more nearly approach the quota furnished by the county of Norfolk than the return presented by the counties of Northumberland and Westmoreland. Upon an inspection, however, of the papers upon their Lordships' Table, the same elements of inequality would appear in reference to Ireland. In some unions, the en-

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tire valued rental would only furnish 6s. 8d. a head annually to the entire population; in other cases, the proportion would be, not 6s. 8d., but 6l., or eighteen times that amount. Comparing Kildare and Meath with Donegal, Mayo, and Sligo, it would be seen that the case of each county was totally different. In Ireland there was a general feeling in favour of emigration. However persons might differ on other subjects, he could assure their Lordships there was not the slightest difference on that question. Those who had gone abroad had sent home the most encouraging reports of the success which had attended them; and they all urged their friends in Ireland to strain every nerve to come out also. Their Lordships should be aware that, when an emigrant was settled in the colonies, he became the nucleus of future emigration, and not only encouraged his friends to come out, but sent remittances to assist them. That fact was stated in so many public documents, that it was hardly necessary for him to repeat it. The people in Ireland were truly anxious to get out to the colonies; and, as a proof of that, he would refer to a letter upon which he had fallen by accident, among the Parliamentary papers distributed this morning, which appeared to him to be so touching and so conclusive on the subject, that he would take the liberty of entreating their Lordships' attention to it. It was dated from Ardinglass, 6th September, 1846, and it ran as follows:—
"Pen cannot distate the poverty of this country at present. The potato crop is quite done away all over Ireland, and we are told prevailing all over Europe. There is nothing expected here, only an immediate famine; the labouring classes getting only two stone (a mistake for "pounds") of Indian meal for each day's labour, and only three days given out of each week, to prolong a little money sent out by the Government—to keep the people from going out to the fields—to prevent slaughtering the cattle, which they are threatening very hard they will do before they starve. Pity our hard case, and do not leave us on the number of the starving poor; and if it be your wish to keep us, at any labour you wish to put us to, we will feel happy in doing so. If you knew what hunger we and our fellow countrymen are suffering, if you were over so much distressed, you would take us out of this poverty-stricken isle. We can only say, the scourge of God fell down on Ireland in taking away the potatoes; they have been the only support of the people, not like countries that have a supply of wheat and other grain. Those that have oats they have some chance, for they say they will die before they part with any of it to pay rent. So the landlord is in a bad way too. The Lord is merciful; he fed the 5,000 men with five loaves and two small fishes. For God's sake, take us
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out of poverty, and don't let us die with the hunger!"
He considered that a well-regulated system of emigration must be so great a benefit to Ireland, that the resources of that country itself ought to be held bound to furnish a reasonable portion of the cost of that benefit; and he must say that, among the landlords and gentry of Ireland, he had never found any reluctance or any difference of opinion on that subject. If the land of Ireland was greatly benefited by the removal of a portion of the people, whose condition was also improved by the removal, it was but right to look for a just proportion of assistance from the land so benefited. Supposing, then, that funds were provided, he admitted that he was bound to prove, before emigrants were sent out, that this could be done without any disadvantage to the colonies themselves. This, be felt confident, might readily and conclusively be proved. He believed that the advantages to the colonies would be found equally great with the advantages to Ireland. He was rejoiced to perceive that his noble Friend the Secretary of State contemplated the employment of emigrants upon colonial public works; he believed that by doing so the colonies themselves would be improved to an incalculable extent, and at the same time Ireland freed from its surplus population. It was also most certain that in the colony this emigrant population would become large consumers of British manufactures. He begged to direct their Lordships' attention to the fact, that of 1,400,000 emigrants, who had left this country, 700,000 went to the United States. The reason was, that in the United States there had been progress made throughout the Union; whilst, on the contrary, in the North American provinces there had been, in too many cases, torpor and inactivity. Lord Durham stated in his report—
"On the American side all is activity. The forest has been widely cleared; every year settlements are formed, and thousands of farms created out of the waste; the country is intersected by common roads, canals and railroads are finished, and the ways of communication and transport are crowded with people, carriages, and steamboats. Good houses, warehouses, mills, inns, villages, and even great cities, are seen almost to spring out of the desert. Every village has its school-house and place of worship. On the British side of the line, with the exception of a few favoured spots, where some approach to American prosperity is apparent, all seems waste and desolate. That painful truth is manifest in the country districts for 1,000 miles"

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Now the Irish and the English emigrants naturally turned to the country where they could find the surest market for labour; and the capitalist was attracted to the country where he could get the best return for his money. Let it not be supposed that the United States had greater natural advantages than British America; Lord Durham expressly stated in his report, that whatever might be the natural fertility of the United States, it was far surpassed by that of our North American provinces. He did not think the fact that the crown had parted with the land would be found any very great impediment in their way, because the emigrants might be employed on public works to the great advantage of the colonies, the labourers, and the mother country, and thus colonial co-operation would be secured. He must remind their Lordships that the colonial trade which originated in emigration was an intercourse in which no foreign jealousies were to be apprehended, nor any hostile tariffs; but, on the contrary, the advantages to be derived from mutual trading between the mother country and her colonies were so clear and distinct, that it was obvious that every step that was taken was one of progress and profit to both parties. He would only say, before he sat down, that he was far from confining his attention to our colonies in British North America. The Australian colonies presented an almost unlimited field for colonisation, and an encouraging example of successful enterprise. He knew that those colonies, and especially South Australia, had found difficulties to contend with, and what might almost be considered an escape from bankruptcy; but at the same time it appeared that upwards of one million sterling had already been spent in the purchase of land, and that between 50,000 and 60,000 emigrants had been removed to the colony, and were now placed in a condition of comfort and content. As he was convinced that the pressure upon Ireland would not cease with the present year, and as he had not the remotest expectation that the measures of the Government would strike at the root of that distress, he hoped that some largo measure of colonisation, wisely adopted and practically applied, might be devised to effect that object. He felt confident that a system of colonisation, undertaken on a large but not an ill-considered seale—not applied to the whole of the country, but to parts of it—not dealing with millions, but with such numbers as
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would afford relief where the population was in excess—would be, not indeed, a specific remedy, but a remedy without which every other attempt to meet the difficulties of Ireland would be ineffectual and unavailing. On these grounds, he would move their Lordships—
"That a Select Committee be appointed to consider what means of colonisation may be best adopted for the purpose of improving the social condition of Ireland, and by which the interests of the colonies themselves may be advanced, and the comfort and prosperity of those who emigrate may be promoted."
EARL GREYsaid, that as it was not his intention to object to the present Motion, he need trouble their Lordships only for a short time whilst he stated the ground of his acquiescence, and noticed some of the points in the noble Lord's speech. In the first place, he did not acquiesce in the appointment of this Committee under any expectation of being able to succeed in what none of the able persons who had turned their attention to the subject had accomplished, in devising any new and ingenious scheme by which a large portion of the population of Ireland could be transported without difficulty or inconvenience to North America, and be there placed at once in a situation of comfort and convenience. He entertained no such expectations. On the contrary, the main motive for his acquiescing in the present Motion was, because he trusted the result of the inquiry would be to disabuse men's minds of a dangerous error, that to the greatest extent emigration could be made useful; though when confined to its proper object he (Earl Grey), for one, attached the highest importance to colonisation. He thought that, properly applied, it was a great advantage to the emigrants themselves, to the colonies, and lastly to the mother country. He cordially concurred in that opinion; but at the same time it would be impossible to make any great and immediate impression on the numbers of the population in England and Wales, or at once seriously to diminish the pressure of destitution in Ireland which so unhappily existed. He looked, however, with some apprehension to the notions prevalent on this subject. His noble Friend had disclaimed any of these extravagant ideas; but he could not forget, that very recently a memorial had been presented to the Government, signed by a great number of noble Lords and gentlemen, including many Members of Parliament connected

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with Ireland, stating deliberately that unless 2,000,000 of the population were removed from Ireland, during the next three or four years, no benefit would accrue to that country; and that, if this were not done, what was going on was only adding sparks to the fire. It was startling to see such doctrines put forward, not merely by individual writers, but by a large number of noblemen and gentlemen, united without respect to party, and pressed on the Government with no common ingenuity or perseverance. It was true that the scheme had been in a great degree abandoned. The deputation who waited on the Government said they were formally authorized to say that if the measure were rejected, it would be brought before the other House of Parliament by a noble Earl; but it appeared, when the Motion was actually brought forward, that this great scheme, which had been got up with infinite pains, had been repudiated with the utmost anxiety by each of the parties who took part in the debate. The noble Earl, who made the Motion, caused it to be distinctly understood, that he had nothing to do with the scheme; and of the vast array of Members of Parliament who had signed the memorial, when the measure came to be discussed before Parliament, not one was found to come forward and say that in his opinion such a measure ought to be adopted; in fact, the measure was utterly repudiated. Such being the way in which this great project had been treated, far be it from him to detain their Lordships upon it; let it slumber upon dusty shelves, or be consigned to that limbo for visionary and impracticable projects which the poets told them was assigned for all such. At the same time he did not object to a Committee; there still evidently remained in the minds of some a notion that some plan might be adopted by which a large proportion of the inhabitants of Ireland might be sent to America. Let the Committee test any plans, and sec what in them was really valuable; and whatever could be accomplished, he, for one, was most desirous to effect. Let him, in the meantime, tell their Lordships what had been done during the last few years, and what was now going on. They were apt to forget what during a few years had been accomplished; and he feared that the last annual report of the Emigration Commissioners, which had been recently presented, had not attracted the attention of their Lordships to the extent to which it was
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entitled. Up to the end of 1830 there was no such thing as emigration of labouring men to Australia; in fact, no ships were regularly engaged in the trade, and the cheapest passage that could then be obtained was a steerage passage, the price of which was then about 40 1. His noble Friend the Earl of Ripon at that time began to adopt regulations for the sale of lands and applying a largo proportion of the produce towards emigration. A Commission sat, of which the Duke of Richmon was chairman, and the result was that the passage-money had been brought down to 15 1. to Sydney; and in favourable cases to 15 1. or 16 1. to Southern and Western Australia. It was most satisfactory, as showing the progress that had been made, and the advantages which had been hitherto accomplished, that while in the earlier days of emigration there was a considerable mortality—though never to any great extent—among the emigrant ships; yet of late years—and the fact reflected on the Emigration Commissioners no small praise—the mortality had been brought considerably under 1 per cent; nay, on this long voyage, including the passage of the line, and the change of such a variety of climates, the mortality on board the emigrant ships was less than among a similar number of persons of the same ago resident in this country; and this redounded not a little to the credit of those who carried out the present system. This system it was still intended to carry on, and it would be extended as far as possible. Last Session, in accordance with the acts of his predecessors, he (Earl Grey) introduced an Act increasing the power of the Crown in the sale of waste lands in Australia; it was an Act which would have the effect of giving the use of valuable sheep and cattle lands in Australia; and no doubt another consequence of that Act would be that additional sums of money would be obtained in favour of the emigration funds. His noble Friend who spoke last, would allow him (Earl Grey) to say, that if he saw the colonial papers he would perceive that even at this moment there was no small pressure on the Government to break in on the policy which they had adopted in this respect, and adopted with so much success. It must always be recollected, however, that the sale of land at large prices was anything but popular in the colonies; and the application of the principle required some little caution and care, for they could not deal with men as

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they would with pawns on a chess-board; and they must consult the feelings of the colonists, more especially in our North American possessions. Much had been accomplished in North America, although the system there adopted was, perhaps, less striking; hut some years ago, the mode of emigration might be truly described as shovelling out paupers; and he was gratified to be able to state that, year by year, the system was improving on both sides of the Atlantic, with the utmost benefit to the emigrants and to the colonies. It had happened, that persons introduced themselves to the emigrants, in some cases as agents, to provide them with facilities for emigration, and had thus committed frauds upon them; and it was also true that in some instances ships had been sent out badly found and unfit for sea, and that ignorant men had been most improperly carried to a great distance from their proper destination. But the emigration officers who had been appointed had now established almost a complete system of protection for the emigrants; and wherever frauds were likely to take place, means were generally taken by the emigration agents to prevent them. There was one fact which was worthy of the most serious consideration in looking at the subject of emigration: their Lordships were aware that large sums had been sent home from America by emigrants to their friends in this empire; and these must have had a great effect in fostering and encouraging emigration at the expense of individuals, and not of the State. But he had said before, and he would now say it again, that the progress of emigration must be gradual; and he would repeat, that those who held out hopes to the people of Ireland that a considerable amount of relief might be afforded by sending off suddenly large portions of the population, were under a delusion themselves, and were holding out hopes which could not be realized. There were great advantages to be derived from emigration; great benefits must result from it; but it was utterly impossible that any great and sudden change could be effected by whatever plan of emigration the country should think fit to adopt. With regard to North America, the progress of emigration, with a view to the improvement of the condition of the emigrants, must be gradual, for this among other reasons—that it was absolutely necessary that the concurrence of the colonial authorities should be obtained; for
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this country could not carry out any plan a single step without their support and assistance. In April last, no fewer than 55,000 persons left the shores of England and Ireland for our American colonies and the United States. He was very sanguine that by the means now in operation those emigrants would be favourably received, and would be able to establish themselves on the other side of the Atlantic with very little more difficulty than what was experienced last year. No doubt there would be hardships and sufferings to be undergone; but, unless, in consequence of the privations they experienced in Ireland previous to their departure, fever and sickness should go out with them, he entertained very little fear of their success, and that large numbers would quietly settle there. Some ships had been driven back by stress of weather; but with the exception of the emigrants in these vessels there was little doubt that the large number of emigrants who went out would be satisfactorily settled; and it was the opinion of those who were best acquainted with this subject, that in the course of the present year the number of emigrants from Ireland and this country would not fall short of between 200,000 and 300,000 persons. Already 120,000 had gone out; and, considering how much of the season still remained, it would not be an over-estimate to assume that 100,000 more would emigrate this year. He had already stated it to be his opinion that the larger number of emigrants would be satisfactorily provided for when they arrived in America; but he must at the same time say, that if their Lordships were to adopt the views of some Gentlemen, and take measures for giving, by artificial means, a great stimulus to emigration, and thereby increase the number of emigrants by one-third or one-fourth beyond what would be the amount by what might properly be termed "natural emigration," the case would be very different. The result would be that the natural means of employment in America would not be sufficient to absorb all the candidates for labour. Now, as his noble Friend had observed, a small surplus of labour threw great distress on a whole body of labourers; the effect of any rash measure, such as that, would therefore be to expose the whole body of emigrants to very serious distress. This would give a check to emigration, the consequences of which might be felt for many years. Their Lordships all remembered what took place in the year

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1832, when the cholera broke out. In consequence of that dreadful pestilence, and the severity of the sufferings which it occasioned, many thousands were induced to emigrate; but finding no demand for their labour abroad, after undergoing great cruelties and much suffering, many of them were compelled to return to this country. The effect of that excess of emigration was to give a serious check to the natural course of emigration in subsequent years; and he believed it was as much as they could say that the consequences were even now entirely got over. But if they would not unduly stimulate emigration, but would allow it to take its natural course, and would confine their efforts to the making the best provision in their power on the other side of the Atlantic for receiving the emigrants and giving them employment, he believed they would be the means of effecting great good. Every succeeding year would increase the number who would voluntarily emigrate, because those who went out one year would be prepared the year after to receive their friends and relations. His noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) had read a very remarkable letter, addressed to a person in Canada by his relations in Ireland. What was the commentary upon that? One of the emigration agents in Canada was asked by the Government in Canada, whether, under the circumstances stated in that letter, it was expedient that Government should assist the relations of such persons to enable them to find their way to America. He begged their Lordships' attention to the reply which that agent gave. He stated—
"That he was of opinion that there were thousands of settlers in Canada who were ready to provide for their relations, if they could he brought over from Ireland and England free of expense. The funds provided by the Colony were only to afford relief to indigent emigrants after landing."
The agent then proceeded to state, that the sums remitted by settlers in Canada to enable their relations to emigrate, were rapidly increasing in amount. A few years ago, the instances were rare; but now they were becoming almost general; and he concluded by declaring it to be his opinion, that "the present system would effect all the purposes desired." Lord Elgin, in transmitting this paper home, strongly recommended that Her Majesty's Government should act upon the opinion expressed by the agent, and should adhere to the principle which had hitherto regu-
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lated their conduct, and determine that relief to emigrants should commence on their arrival in Canada. He (Earl Grey) was convinced that that was sound advice. His noble Friend had said, that unassisted emigration to some places did more harm than good. If his noble Friend would look at the report of the Emigration Commission of last year, he would not discover it to be the fact that unassisted emigrants consisted of persons who were without capital. By the report of 1846, it appeared that, of the number of emigrants that landed at Quebec in that year, upwards of half came under the denomination of unskilled labourers in Ireland; and out of the remainder, four-fifths wore agricultural labourers and farmers. But let him remind his noble Friend what was the class of persons called farmers in Ireland. They were men holding three, four, and five acres of land, the goodwill of which they very often sold to raise the means to enable them to emigrate. It was found, practically, that the number of those who possessed any means beyond what was necessary to take them to their port of debarkation, were very few indeed. The opinion of the agents was unanimous, that the large proportion of mere labourers sent out without capital could not maintain themselves. In the report from New Brunswick, this opinion was expressed in the strongest manner. That Colony possessed very great natural advantages; and he looked forward to the time when much good might be accomplished in that part of our American possessions. It appeared, therefore, from all the statements he had been able to consult, and from the opinions of those who were best acquainted with the subject, that if this country were artificially to increase the number of emigrants, it would be absolutely necessary that a larger amount of capital should be furnished for their employment. His noble Friend adverted to one topic upon which he certainly entirely concurred with him in the opinions he had expressed. His noble Friend said, that if they were willing to encourage emigration, what they ought to look to was the promotion of public works in Canada. This was a subject which had already engaged the attention of the Colonial Government. A very considerable loan had been raised by that Colony upon favourable terms, the interest of which was guaranteed by this country, and which money was now being expended upon public works in Canada. He should be ex-

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tremely glad to see this description of undertaking carried much further. He confessed he had the greatest anxiety to see the railroad system carried to the greatest extent in America. There was one projected undertaking of that kind, which he thought of the greatest national importance—namely, a railway projected to run from Quebec to Halifax. He could conceive nothing more important than the establishment of a communication by which they might have access from Canada to one of the nearest colonial ports to this country in all seasons of the year, and at the same time have, of course, equally easy access from Halifax to Canada. This he believed to be an object of the very highest national importance. In the construction of such a railroad, there was no doubt a great extent of land which might be made available, but which was at present, to a great extent, inaccessible. If the shrewd and practical good sense of the Americans were applied to the construction of this railroad, adapting it to the circumstances of the country, and leaving it to future times to be completed according to the more expensive designs of similar undertakings in this country—if the Colonial Legislature would pursue that policy, as he trusted it would—his conviction was that that railroad might be effected at a cost that would be covered by the increased value which it would confer on the land through which it ran. No man was more anxious than himself that that work should go forward. His noble Friend the Governor General of Canada was equally impressed with the same opinion, that it was a work most desirable to be accomplished. Before his departure, he (Earl Grey) had frequent conversations with his noble Friend upon the subject; and he was thoroughly acquainted with the views of Her Majesty's Government upon the point, and that they were no less anxious than he (Earl Grey) and his noble Friend (Lord Elgin) were, to promote the success of the undertaking. These were not things which could be pushed on with that avidity which some Gentlemen might wish. It was necessary that they should observe caution and deliberation, in order that their steps might be safe and secure. In the first place, the surveys were at present in a very imperfect condition. Orders had been given to proceed with them as expeditiously as possible; but the serious accident which occurred last year to an officer of the highest character and promise, who unfortu-
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nately lost his life in attempting to rescue one of the persons engaged with him from a perilous position, had had the effect of delaying the work; but means had since been taken to have the surveys advanced with all practicable despatch. It would be the duty of Lord Elgin to bring the subject before the Colonial Legislature, and endeavour with them to adopt measures best calculated to carry forward the undertaking. But there was something further at the present moment, which he (Earl Grey) feared would retard the advancement of this desirable work. He entertained serious doubts whether the colonists were of themselves able to supply the capital to carry it on. If this country wore now in the situation in which it was three or four years ago—if the funds were now at 100—if the money market were in that state in which capital could be readily obtained by any promising undertaking, he certainly thought that in England large assistance might be procured for carrying on so good a work. But it was impossible to look at the present state of things and feel the same confidence. They could not be ignorant of the present state of the money market. In spite of their having raised the interest on Exchequer bills, it was hardly possible to prevent those bills being returned upon the Government. So great, indeed, was the pressure, that it had become necessary for his noble Friend the President of the Council to move for the appointment of a Committee to consider what measures were necessary to be adopted to facilitate the suspension of the Railway Bills now pending, in consequence of the deficiency of the means for carrying on railway works. Their Lordships must be aware that whatever money should be taken from this country to promote public works in the Colonies, would be so much money abstracted from the means for carrying on similar undertakings in the mother country. His confidence in the resources of the country was in no degree diminished; and whatever difficulties might arise from the investment of money in undertakings not immediately productive, and from other temporary causes, if they were only favoured by Providence with a return of good harvests, he was so confident in the power of accumulation, and in the enterprise of this country, and in the enormous amount of capital which rendered its industry and enterprise effective, that, whatever might be the difficulties under which we at present laboured, he was con-

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vinced that they would be of a transient and fleeting character; and that in a short time voluntary emigration would, without the assistance or interference of Government, with only its sanction and countenance, continue to flow. But he called upon their Lordships not to encourage the delusive expectation, that it was in the power of the Government at once to meet the difficulties of the existing state of things. There was only one more topic to which he wished to advert. His noble Friend had pointed to the contrast presented between the progress of the United States and the progress of Canada. It was that progress in the United States which made that country so attractive to Englishmen; and it was that very progress which furnished strong argument in favour of leaving our Colonies in a great degree to their own resources and exertions. The over-interference and over-care of the Government had, in former times, kept back our Colonies; and he believed it was the wiser policy to leave the Colonies, to a great extent, to manage their own internal affairs, stimulating and encouraging, but not controlling them in their measures, or forcing them to adopt a course which appeared best to us, but which might not appear best to them; and that if we persevered in this policy, its good effects would be seen. These were the observations which seemed to him to be called for by the speech of his noble Friend; and he concluded by again repeating, that he trusted their Lordships would recollect, that, in consenting to this Committee, it was not his intention, or that of his Colleagues, to encourage an expectation that emigration could over be carried on upon the gigantic scale which some believed necessary and practicable, and to be a mode of affording immediate relief to Ireland. He believed it was only as subsidiary to other measures now in progress, calculated to relieve the local congestion, if he might so call it, in particular parts of Ireland, that emigration, as it had gone on, and would go on, could benefit our own population and be serviceable to our Colonies.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, his noble Friend (Earl Grey), thorough out the whole of his speech, had adverted very little to the condition of Ireland, which was one of the most important elements of the question. He urged upon the Government the necessity of considering the difficulties under which Ireland laboured, and whether further measures of relief could not be
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devised before the next Session of Parliament. Something more must be done unless they made up their minds that Ireland was to be a burden to this country for years and years to come. Her Majesty's Ministers had not, in his opinion, taken a sufficiently large view of the exertions necessary to be made for the relief of that country. His noble Friend had adverted to the difficulty which the state of the money market threw in the way of encouraging emigration; this argument might be a strong one, but it was demolished by the noble Earl when he expressed his confidence in the power and resources of this country. The noble Earl spoke of the accumulation of capital; but there was no such accumulation in Ireland. The question was, what was to be done with the people of Ireland? The noble Earl anticipated relief from voluntary emigration. What was that voluntary emigration? Let their Lordships bear in mind that this was the first time in the history of the country when the people of Ireland were thoroughly disposed to emigrate. He thought their Lordships should avail themselves of this feeling, because he ventured to say, and he appealed to the few Irish Peers who heard him, whether the assertion was not correct, that if there should be a tolerable crop of potatoes this year, there would be an end to all disposition to emigrate. They ought, therefore, to have availed themselves of the emergency, for emergencies were opportunities; and he did not hesitate to say, that they ought to have encouraged emigration even by Government aid. Who are now to assist the Irish to emigrate? The landlords? Had the landlords the power? He said they could not. If their Lordships looked for any relief for Ireland, or rather for England and for the empire, from emigration, and expected that it could be set on foot by the Irish landlords, they would be disappointed. It could not be done. If it could not be done by the landlords, by whom was it to he done? To assert that the landlords could do it through the electoral divisions, was only asserting that it could be done by the landlords themselves. He contended that it was absolutely necessary that Government should make extraordinary exertions for the relief of Ireland, and there was no means by which that object could be accomplished more likely to prove successful than a wise and comprehensive system of emigration. The condition of Ireland, even as respected its peace and tranquillity,

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demanded that something should he done; for he was satisfied that if this country did not exert itself more than it had hitherto done for the preservation of the people of Ireland, they would inevitably have tumult in that country. It was necessary that they should encourage emigration, and at the same time promote great public works, not merely in the colonies, but also in Ireland. It was impossible to remove the evils which now surrounded them in Ireland, without an extensive system of emigration; he believed that unless such means of relief were resorted to, they would not for years and years be able to surmount the difficulties which pressed upon that country. He knew that there was in England great unwillingness to look upon any calamity that came over Ireland as a calamity also affecting this country. There was a strong feeling of this kind in England, but it was one which ought not to be encouraged. When he declared himself to be in favour of emigration, he was not to be understood as recommending such an extensive or wholesale system as might have the effect of creating unpleasant feelings among the colonists in North America; but he was in favour of a wise and careful system, which, while it benefited Ireland, would cause no jealousy in any other qusrter. The noble Earl then proceeded to contend that the Government ought to be prepared for a continuance, if not an increase, of the distress which prevailed in Ireland. To make up for the loss of the potato, it was necessary that two acres of wheat should be sown for every acre of potatoes that had been displaced; but there had not been the slightest possibility of such a thing having been done this year in Ireland. The Government and the House ought therefore to be prepared to meet the wants of that country. They might depend upon it, that it was impossible to go on as they were now doing; and it was full time they were all convinced that such measures as their Poor Law and their loans of 1,500,800 l., would do nothing to meet the exigencies of Ireland.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid a few words in reply, and pointed out that, by the admission of the noble Earl himself, just in proportion as emigration had been properly regulated by Government superintendence, it had been successful. He believed that there was no possible solution of the difficulties under which Ireland was placed, unless they adopted a large, a cautious,
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and a wise system of emigration from that country.
Motion agreed to, and Committee appointed.
House adjourned.