Sitting of 17 July 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—3° and passed:—Consolidated Fund (Appropriation).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Charles Miller, M.A., for Alteration of the Tithes Commutation Act— By Mr. Barkly, from Members of the Court of Policy and of the Financial Representatives of British Guiana, respecting Drainage.—By Mr. Hume, from Finsbury, for Inquiry respecting the Rajah of Sattara.—From Shipbuilders of Liverpool, against the Repeal of the Navigation Laws.

CONSOLIDATED FUND APPROPRIATION BILL.
On the Question that the Consolidated Fund Bill be read a Third Time,
MR. HUMEcalled the attention of the House to a clause in this Bill, the effect of which would be to permit alterations and variations in the appropriation, in direct contravention of the spirit of the Bill itself. When he last put the ques-
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tion as to the existence of such a clause, the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer gave him an assurance which had then appeared to be satisfactory; but he had since made inquiry, and found that by the 24th Clause of this Bill the fullest possible license in the application of the fund would be given to the Treasury, This, no doubt, was a great advantage to that office; but the House voted distinct sums to different departments; and the intention manifestly was that the money so granted should be expended in the one particular way, and no other. The same power, it appeared, had been granted sub silentio in the Bill last Session, and from some unknown cause had escaped the attention of many hon. Gentlemen. The right hon. Gentleman now wished to continue the Bill in the same shape, and in effect the Legislature thus empowered the Treasury to limit the appropriation in whatever way they pleased, provided only they did not exceed the aggregate amount agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERwas understood to say that the measure which had been brought forward in the course of the last Session by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge, for the better auditing of the public accounts, had rendered it indispensably necessary that some such license as that contained in the Consolidated Fund Bill should be intrusted to the Treasury. Under the old system, the greatest inconvenience had been found to result from the prescribed mode of dealing with the balances which were left each year, invariably, unappropriated; and as now the whole amount voted by the House could not in any case be exceeded, no evil could arise; and the clause to which the hon. Gentleman referred, would operate as a restriction rather than as a license.
Bill read a third time.

RIVERS AND HARBOURS—CHARITABLE TRUSTS.
On the question that the Bill do pass,
MR. HUMEwished to make a remark with respect to the sum required for the construction of tidal harbours and harbours of refuge. A Commission was appointed three years ago which did not examine into the condition of all the harbours in the kingdom, but into a large and sufficient proportion of them. Their report, and the Bill they recommended, was sub-

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jected to a more severe test than any Bill ever had been. Copies had been sent to six hundred individuals and parties connected with the shipping interests. Only four-and-twenty boards of dock trustees had offered any dissensions; and he should be able to give a give a good reason why their opposition ought not to be attended to before a Committee of the House. The question belonged not to this or to that port alone, but it was a national question; and there was no time at which the coasting trade ought to be supported against railway competition. The Admiralty had done nothing in the matter; and after three years he thought it was much to be regretted that something should not have been done to prevent the daily decadence of the ports and navigable rivers of the country. He would not now do more than express a hope, the Admiralty having in their possession an immense mass of information on the subject, that early in the next Session something would be done. The coasting trade in the next eighteen months would be greatly reduced on account of the taxes and port duties charged on the shipping. Between Hull and London any quantity of goods might be transported without any tax whatever, while the coasting vessels were subject to imposts amounting to a million and a half sterling per annum, which was paid to corporate and other bodies, which, in his opinion, ought never to have been in their hands. There was another question, with reference to which he regretted the Home Secretary had not brought in a measure—he meant the subject of charitable trusts. The grossest abuses, as was admitted by all, prevailed; and it would be recollected that last Session he had introduced a Bill on the subject, the effect of which would have been to bring before the public every year the accounts of all the public charities. At present there was no remedy for abuses but that of appeal to the courts of law; but if it was made imperative that an account of the receipts and expenditure should be annually laid before Parliament, a speedy and effectual reform of abuses would soon take place, just as had been exemplified in the case of turnpike trusts. He withdrew his Bill last Session, in the expectation that something would be done by Government; and he regretted very much that no measure had been brought forward. A very great proportion of the money held in trust in this country was for the purposes of education; and nothing could exceed the
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gross abuses which existed under this head. He hoped that whenever a Bill was introduced, it would embrace the whole country. When his Bill was brought forward, the city of London was at once in motion, and wished to be excepted; but he would make no exception. There was no desire on his part to blame any one for the delay that had taken place on this subject. He knew how the Government had been pressed this year; but he thought a small Bill, requiring a simple balance-sheet annually from each charity, might have been passed, and that alone would have effected a great good. He hoped these observations would not be taken as a complaint, but would be the means of pressing upon the Government the necessity of doing something.
SIR G. GREYsaid, the attention of the Government, and particularly of the Lord Chancellor, had been directed to this subject, and a Bill was prepared; but, on considering the business of the Session, it was found that there was no prospect of passing it through Parliament. Another reason for not bringing forward the Bill was, that the Government wished to avail themselves of the services of the judges of the local courts as a part of the machinery for carrying out the measure, and it was accordingly delayed. A Bill would, however, be introduced in the next Session.
MR. STAFFORD O'BRIENhad opposed the Bill of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume); but he was bound to say that he had received several remonstrances on the subject of the abuses prevalent in public charities. Many of the smaller charities might be rendered exceedingly useful; but there was no way of getting the evils under which they lay remedied, except by recourse to law, which was too expensive. He deprecated the idea of remedying abuses, however, by turning that House into a body of trustees for the whole nation.
MR. WAKLEYhoped that the question of charitable trusts, which was one of great magnitude and importance, would have the best attention of the Government; and he regretted that a measure had not already been brought forward. In many schools intended for general instruction, the education was wholly confined to the dead languages, and the sooner these schools were opened up for the use of the community at large the better. It was disgraceful to Parliament that so much money bestowed for the purposes of education was allowed to remain unappropriated to the

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purposes for which it was intended. The subject was one of such pressing importance, that he hoped it would be noticed in the Speech from the Throne at the beginning of next Session.
Bill passed.

ECCLESIASTICAL JURISDICTION AMENDMENT BILL,
House in Committee on the Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction Amendment Bill.
SIR J. GRAHAMwished to have a pledge from the right hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) that a comprehensive measure respecting ecclesiastical jurisdiction would be introduced early next Session. He consented to this Bill only upon the understanding that it was a temporary measure, limited to one Session.
SIR G. GREYsaid, he proposed the Bill only as a temporary measure. Considering the number and magnitude of the questions they would have to deal with, he must abstain from giving a positive pledge that early next Session he would bring in a comprehensive measure respecting the ecclesiastical courts. During the last two or three days he had drawn up a list of various subjects to be considered early next Session, and he had been obliged to turn over on a second page of the paper. The right hon. Baronet, therefore, must he satisfied with the assurance that it should be one of the first measures brought before the new Parliament.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, Lord Cottenham in the other House, and the right hon. Baronet in this, had held him (Sir J. Graham), when in office, very close as to the introduction of a comprehensive measure relating to the ecclesiastical jurisdiction; and he not only gave a pledge, but he had twice introduced a Bill, which he made as comprehensive as he could, and had pressed it as strongly as he could; and he pledged himself to give the right hon. Baronet all the assistance in his power. He admitted the difficulty of legislating upon this subject as to bona notabilia and other matters; and perhaps the continuance of the grievances existing under the present state of the ecclesiastical courts might have the good effect of serving as a fulcrum to obtain an improvement of that jurisdiction.
MR. NEWDEGATEobserved, that the right hon. Baronet seemed to wish to enact the part of a legislative Jack Sheppard, using grievances as a sort of crowbar. He
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deprecated such a system of legislation as that of prolonging grievances in order to use them as a fulcrum to force, perhaps, a violent change.
LORD R. GROSVENORassured the right hon. Baronet that he should have every assistance in his power, though he could not answer for his Colleague (the Attorney General.)
The ATTORNEY GENERAL The ATTORNEY GENERAL, with reference to the allusion made to him by the noble Lord, admitted that he had opposed the Bill of the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham); but he had profited by subsequent inquiries and consideration, and he hoped the Bill which would be introduced would satisfy everybody.
SIR J. GRAHAMsaid, if the measure was in so forward a state as to entitle the hon. and learned Gentleman to say it would be satisfactory to everybody, why could not the right hon. Baronet give a pledge that it should be introduced early next Session? His Bills had encountered much resistance from influential persons at Chester, and, by some mysterious influence on both sides of the House, they had been defeated. Now, however, the hon. and learned Gentleman (the Attorney General) representing Chester, and the noble Lord who had also represented Chester, and was now connected with Middlesex, were going to give to the right hon. Baronet the assistance which had been denied to him. He hoped that the Bill which was to please everybody would be one of the first measures introduced next Session.
MR. B. ESCOTTsaid, as long as measures were brought in, which, on pretence of being for the improvement of the ecclesiastical jurisdiction, were nothing but a Doctors Commons' job, they would be still opposed, and opposed with success; but if the right hon. Baronet brought in a Bill for the thorough reform of abuses in those courts, and which was not a Doctors Commons' job, he should have his support, and would receive the thanks of every member of the community.
Bill passed through the Committee.
The House resumed. Report to be received.
House adjourned at Three o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Commons Inclosure (No. 3).
Reported.—Canal Companies; Destitute Persons (Ireland, No. 3); Highway Rates; Militia Pay; Copyright (Colonies); Public Works and Drainage (Ireland); Constabulary Force (Ireland); London Bridge Approaches Fund.
3a and passed:—Post Office; Navigation (No. 2); Recovery of Public Monies (Ireland).