Sitting of 29 January 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2o Chelsea Pensions; Distilling from Sugar; Customs' Duties.
Reported.—Buck Wheat, &c. Importation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Castleton, for Limiting the Hours of Labour in Factories.—From Shipowners of Seilly, for carrying into effect the Recommendations of the Select Committee with respect to Lighthouses.—From Callan, for Repeal of the Union.—From North Riding of Tipperary, and Maryborough East, for the Adoption of Measures for the Relief of Destitution in Ireland.—From Chairman of a Meeting of the Inhabitants of Ballymena, for Amendment of the County Works Presentments (Ireland) Act.

PRIVATE BILLS.
MR. HUMEbrought under the notice of the House three Resolutions of which he had given notice. They were as follow:—

"1. That Public General Acts should be prepared for each of the several subjects of Police and Watching, of Waterworks and Sewage, of Paying, of Improvement of Towns and Regulation of Buildings, Streets, and Roads, of Markets and Fairs, of Cemeteries, of Bridges and Ferries, of Harbours, Docks, Ports, Piers, and Quays, of Canals, Rivers, and Navigation, as recommended in the Report of the Select Committee on Private Bills, embodying, as far as possible, the suggestions thereof.

"2. That the recommendation in the said Report as to the taxation of the costs of parties promoting or opposing Private Bills be also adopted, and that a proper taxing officer should be appointed, and a scale of fees, costs, and charges, be authorized and published by Mr. Speaker.

"3. That the Taxing Officer shall present to the House, at the commencement of each Session, an account of the total amount of the expenses for promoting or opposing each Bill taxed and sanctioned by him during the preceding Session, distinguishing the amount paid as fees on each Bill to each of the Houses of Parliament, the amount for witnesses and other expenses, and for professional services."

The hon. Member stated, that since the passing of the Reform Act, private Bills had cost the town of Liverpool no less than between 80,000 l. and 90,000 l., while the expense of similar Bills to Glasgow had been 57,000 l, It had been proved before the Committee on Private Bills, that solicitors charged four or five times as much for business in Parliament as for other bu-
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siness. The hon. Member concluded by moving his first Resolution.
SIR G. GREYadmitted the great importance of the subject, but submitted that before the House pledged itself by adopting any resolution, it would be expedient to see the Bill now nearly prepared, and which would have for object the consolidation of special clauses in many private Bills. That measure now would have been upon the Table, but for the unforeseen pressure of other business. The resolutions of the hon. Member, if adopted, could hardly be brought into operation during the present Session, so that little delay would be caused by waiting for the promised Bill. Last Session he had taken objection to the second and third resolutions, since they could only he carried into effect by an Act of Parliament.
MR. HUDSONremarked upon the enormous fees paid to the House for Bills for the improvement of towns, &c., amounting in some cases to nearly as much as the whole of the other charges. That was one great reason why the public was so unwilling to come before Parliament. He hoped that a Committee would be appointed to inquire into the subject, as the charges for passing private Bills had increased four or fivefold within a few years: the burden had now become almost intolerable.
MR. HUMEwas willing to withdraw his resolutions until the Bill adverted to by the Secretary for the Home Department had been brought under the consideration of the House.
MR. GREENEwished the hon. Member to make a distinction between the fees paid to the House, and the charges of lawyers. A very large part of the expense of a private Bill went into the hands of agents and solicitors, over whom the House had no efficient control.
LORD H. VANEwas glad that the attention of the House had been called to the subject of the fees payable to the House. He hoped that when the hon. Member for Sunderland produced the accounts of which he had spoken, he would distinguish between the fees paid to the House, and those paid to agents and solicitors.
Resolutions withdrawn.

MEXICAN LETTERS OF MARQUE.
MR. BARCLAYwished to call the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Department for Foreign Affairs, and

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also the attention of the House, to an advertisement which appeared in The Times of the 8th of January, relating to Mexican letters of marque. It was forty years since any letter of marque had been issued, and he had entertained the hope that the improved civilization of Europe would have prevented the issue of such atrocious documents again. He wished to ask if the noble Lord's attention had been called to this document, and what measures had been taken on the part of the Government to suppress such atrocious proceedings? Before he sat down he would refer to an extract in the Courrier Français, by which it was declared that any French subjects who made use of the letters of marque would expose themselves to forfeit their quality as Frenchmen, and to be treated as pirates.
VISCOUNT PALMERSTONobserved, that if his hon. Friend had been in the House on a former occasion he would have heard a similar question put by the hon. and learned Member for Bath, and the answer which he had given to the first part of his question. He explained at the time that this advertisement was not issued by the Mexican Consul, but proceeded from a very well-meaning, and no doubt very expert, gunmaker on Tower-hill, stating that a Mexican letter of marque might be seen at his shop. He however communicated with General Mendoza, the Mexican chargé d'affaires, on the subject, and he stated that nobody was at present authored by Mexico in this country to issue letters of marque. General Mendoza had sent him a copy of the decree and regulations under which those letters were issued, and he had referred them to the law advisers of the Crown, and the Queen's Advocate, to see how far issuing such letters of marque here would be consistent with the laws of this country. Every one knew, that under the Foreign Enlistment Act, it was not competent to the subjects of this country to equip vessels destined for any hostile purpose against any other nation, without the consent of the Crown; and it was under the provisions of that Act that those vessels were lately seized which formed part of an intended expedition under the command of General Flores, and another which it was supposed was intended to act on the coast of Portugal. With regard to the other part of his hon. Friend's question, there was no power on the part of the Government to interfere with British subjects abroad; and he confessed he should be re-
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luctant to say that they might be treated as pirates, unless by the law of nations their conduct was considered to be piratical.

DISTRESS IN SCOTLAND.
MR. F. DUNDASwished to ask what were the intentions of the Government with regard to the increasing destitution in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, observing that the Drainage Act was inoperative in Zetland, where the distress was very great.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that as the question put by the hon. Member was almost the same as that of which notice had been given by the hon. Member for Lymington, he would take that opportunity of answering both. The Government had it not in contemplation to establish any general system of relief in the Islands and Western Highlands of Scotland, in addition to those measures which had been already proposed with the view of mitigating the distress which prevailed in that portion of the empire. The means of which the Government had availed themselves in order to mitigate that distress, had been, in the first place, advances made under the Drainage Act of last Session, which had come in aid of that distress most opportunely and extensively, and had effected the most beneficial results, satisfying, as it did, the proprietors of the probable increased value of their land, and affording very extensive relief to a large portion of distressed labourers. In addision to this, the Government had established depôts for the sale of food; these depôts being two frigates, one of which was stationed at Tobermory, and the other at Skye; in addition to which there were Government steamers, and commissariat officers, who were directed to make inquiries, and give such assistance as was necessary. He believed that these measures had been very available in supplying the people of those districts with food, who otherwise would have been in want of the necesssries of life. Besides this, parties who applied to the Loan Commissioners might obtain loans of money, to be expended on public works, on giving security for its repayment. A loan of that kind had actually been made. In addition to this, grants had been made in a few instances to meet local subscriptions, and to relieve distress where the Scotch poor law had been found to be inefficient. He hoped that by those means the severity of the calamity in Scotland might not only be

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mitigated, but that by the exertions of the landed proprietors, who showed every disposition to meet the misfortune, Scotland would be brought safely through the present crisis.
MR. MACKINNONobserved, that one question which he had wished to put had not been answered, and that was whether, as it was the intention of the Government to advance a sum of money for the purchase of seed for corn and potatoes in Ireland, they were willing to have equal justice done to Scotland. He did not say that seed was wanted in the Highlands; but if it should be required there, probably there would be no objection, on the part of the Government, to afford them the same assistance as was to be given to Ireland.
SIR G. GREYsaid, that no such application had been made at present; but that, if made, it would certainly be taken into consideration by the Government.

DISTILLATION FROM SUGAR BILL.
On the Question, that the Distillation from Sugar Bill be read a Second Time,
MR. FORBES MACKENZIEsaid, the Bill had not been printed more than half an hour; and he, therefore, trusted the second reading would be postponed.
MR. HUMEdid not see any reason why the second reading should be postponed. The hon. Gentleman could not object to the principle of the Bill; and if the details did not meet his views, the hon. Gentleman could object to them in Committee.
MR. MACKENZIEcould not say whether he agreed to the principle of a Bill or not before he had read it.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that this Bill had nothing in the world in view but to carry out the resolution which the House had already agreed to. The whole question had been stated by himself to the House more than a week ago, and the resolution was agreed to unanimously. He had then understood that nobody objected to the resolution, and that some hon. Members only wished to consider some of the details in Committee. He trusted, therefore, that no opposition would be offered to the Bill in its present stage.
MR. MACKENZIEwished to know if there was any information, with respect to this Bill, in the papers which were to be produced to-morrow.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that he was very sorry that those papers were not in the hands of the
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Members at that moment; they were delayed in consequence of a great number of calculations which were to be inserted. They would, however, be ready by tomorrow morning, or, at the latest, on Monday.
Bill read a second time.
House adjourned at ten minutes to Six o'clock.

IMMIGRATION OF IRISH PAUPERS.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, he had observed
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on the other evening, that a great impression had been made by the statement of his noble and learned Friend who sat opposite (Lord Brougham), of the great number of Irish poor who had recently been relieved in Liverpool. He was sure that their Lordships must be aware that those poor who had recently arrived in Liverpool had not stayed there. They were not resident there. Therefore let not noble Lords, who were connected with Lancashire, imagine that they could get off scot free. They would go on to Manchester; they would go through the East Riding on to Lincolnshire and to Norfolk, and the landlords of Suffolk would not escape the infliction. Let them, therefore, not imagine that the evil was removed from their doors. This Irish distress was not a local one; it would affect the whole empire; and there was no way, he imagined, in which he could more strongly display the evil than by moving for an official return on it. He would, therefore, move for a return of the number of persons, distinguishing men, women, and children, who had been relieved as casual poor in the town of Liverpool, from the 1st January, 1847, distinguishing also the English, Scotch, and Irish, and with respect to the Irish, distinguishing those resident at Liverpool from those who had recently arrived. He moved also for a similar return from Bristol.
LORD BROUGHAM: And Glasgow and Greenock. Glasgow is much worse than Liverpool.
LORD MONTEAGLE: Say the ports on the Clyde.
EARL FITZWILLIAM: And the ports on the Clyde; also a similar return for the corresponding period of 1846.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, since he had last addressed their Lordships upon this painful subject, he had received a letter from a gentleman at Liverpool, named Horsley, a large wholesale warehouseman there, in which he stated that from the reports in the newspapers he had seen that some observations were addressed by him (Lord Brougham) to their Lordships upon the subject of the great influx of Irish paupers to Liverpool. He stated in his letter that the number of persons relieved on Thursday, the 22nd, amounted to 22,640. What, the writer went on to say, would be the fearful increase, might be easily conjectured. The poor rate at present levied was 2s. 3½d. in the pound, and he himself paid 900 l. for his portion of the

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poor rate. A tabular statement was also enclosed, showing the amount of the relief from the 18th to the 26th inclusive. He would not trouble the House with the details of each day, but the total number amounted to 173,538. Soup rations amounted to between 7,000 and 8,000. The amount of out-door relief was also considerably increased. The increase at present amounted to 400 l.; of this, 378 l. had been expended upon Irish paupers. This would give their Lordships a pretty tolerable index of the proportion of Irish paupers in Liverpool. The result was, that nineteen-twentieths of the pauper population were Irish paupers. This was a subject which required great delicacy in its management. If they were to go on month after month relieving the people at this rate, what would be the result? He had seen a letter that morning from a friend of his who had received it from his bailiff in Ireland, stating that it was quite impossible to go on with the cultivation of land, as at that moment he required 100 labourers, and could not get them, they being all too anxious to obtain employment on the public works, because they well knew that they could get good pay for it, while the value of their work was not worth 2d. It was clear that the Irish pauper did not like work. He (Lord Brougham) regarded with apprehension the State giving money by millions to the people for these useless works. He knew it might be said, how cruel not to give the public money to these starving people for doing nothing. It had been said that men were exceedingly generous of two things—other people's money and their own advice. This adage applied very well to these sentimental people, who were so fond of blaming persons who were opposing this squandering of the public money. They were, however, the best friends to the labourers themselves, who told them not to support a system which was calculated to make them mendicants upon the British public, and take away from them all self-reliance upon their own exertions. He had one subject to which he would briefly allude. It had been stated in the report of his speech of last night that he had said that there was a society engaged in the work of proselytising the Catholic paupers in Ireland. He (Lord Brougham) said no such thing; what he said was, that a letter was written by a reverend gentleman, whose name he would not mention, in which it was stated that it would be an
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excellent opportunity for members of Protestant churches to subscribe a sum of 20,000 l., to be expended in a mission to promulgate the tenets of Protestantism. The reasons why the rev. gentleman considered the present a favourable opportunity, were, as he had stated, that the Roman Catholic peasantry had had their feelings conciliated, and their prejudices removed—no doubt to a great degree by the generous relief which had been afforded so promptly, in the time of their severe distresses, by the Protestants of England. He had no doubt that the proceedings of the rev. gentleman were well intended; but he should try at the proper time, when the circumstances were more favourable to overcome, what he (Lord Brougham) considered the grievous errors — political, moral, and religious—of Popery, by the introduction of the principles of Protestantism, and the circulation of the Scriptures. He objected, however, to the present opportunity being taken advantage of, in order to forward the Protestant faith.
EARL FITZWILLIAMsaid, that unless the relief committees of the district from which the letter referred to by the noble and learned Lord, acted in a different manner to what the relief committees did elsewhere, he did not see how the evils complained of could arise to any great extent. If a proprietor or farmer wanted labourers, and could not get them in the ordinary way, and applied to the relief committee, there was no doubt that they would discharge as many from the public works as would be required for that purpose. There was no doubt that the labourers preferred employment on the roads to the ordinary employment, as the rate of wages was higher, and the labour much less; still the relief committees had the power of regulating this to a great extent. He had received a letter from one of the bailiffs of his estates in Ireland the other day, from which it appeared that the wages paid by the farmers was 8d. a day. The wages paid by his bailiff was 1s. a day, while the relief committee paid from 13 d. to 14 d. a day; so that the labourers preferred his (Earl Fitzwilliam's) employment to the farmers', and the relief committee to both. He was not much alarmed as to anything that had transpired up to this period, as little had been going forward in the cultivation of the land; but as February and March were the principal months for cultivation, if this state of things continued, he would have great apprehension that there would not be

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sufficient labourers found to cultivate the soil.
LORD BEAUMONTwas of opinion that a Select Committee on the operation of the law of settlement should be appointed by their Lordships, as well as the one which had been appointed by the Lower House. He thought this was necessary, as the most erroneous impressions prevailed as to the operation of the law of settlement passed last year.
The EARL of RODENwished to know how far the question of the noble Lord had been replied to, and how far it was the intention of the Ministry to amend the Labour-rate Act of last Session. By that Act it was competent for the farmer to apply to the Board of Works for any number of labourers he might require. By that Act the labourers were under the direction of the Board of Public Works, and if any farmer required labourers, he had nothing to do but to apply to that board. But what was the fact of the case? Supposing a farmer wanted labourers on his farm, would he apply to that board? He might do so; but if he lived in a lonely part of the country, or if he resided in a thatched house, he never could depend upon his life being safe for an hour, should he employ any labourer who was not patronized by the secret associations. He thought that the Government ought to be warned by the extent of the effects to which this Act went, and he trusted that some measures would be taken to amend its provisions. One thing of which he had to complain was, that occasion had been taken to sow religious jealousies. It had been stated, that a hope was entertained that this visitation would be beneficial in promoting the Protestant faith, and thus knitting the interests of that country with this. One of the greatest advantages, as he conceived, derivable from the calamity, and one of the greatest consolations, arose from the fact, that all religious differences were sunk in the common cause of charity. The calamity existed, and they could not hinder it; and the union of political and religious feeling — the greatest consolation that any one could possibly enjoy under the infliction—was the feeling that existed on this point. If they spent thousands upon thousands they would not prevent it; and he regretted, therefore, the more on those two accounts, that the reverend gentleman had been alluded to by the noble Lord who had just sat down, without that respect to which he was entitled. It had been stated that this was a good opportunity for uniting
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Ireland with England, and making converts to Protestantism. The best answer to the attack on the reverend gentleman, was the history of his life. There was not a man higher in the estimation of those with whom he had to deal; not one whose conduct under that difficulty would have been more worthy of praise; not one whose character more combined the character of the gentleman and the clergyman, than that of Mr. Bickersteth. His character was fully established in this country; and no one would regret more than that gentleman, at a time when all religious differences were sunk under the sufferings of the common calamity, if his observations should serve as a cause of difference between the two countries.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that he would exceedingly regret if a few words of his were to be considered as originating any attack upon the excellent clergyman to whom his noble Friend alluded; for he felt convinced that any observation such as he had been represented to have made, would only be a cause of increased misery in Ireland, and lead to a greater breach beween the professors of the two religions than now existed.
Returns ordered.

THE SPANISH MARRIAGES.
The EARL of ABERDEENsaid, that he wished to ask the noble Marquess whether any communication had as yet been received from the French Government, in answer to the last despatch of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, to the Marquess of Normanby; and if any such had been received, whether there was any objection to lay the same upon the Table of the House? It appeared to him, that as the correspondence had commenced by a letter from this country, it ought to close with an answer from the other side. He did not on this occasion wish to offer any opinion upon the subject-matter of the correspondence, and he hoped the House would not be called upon to give any opinion; but he would venture to state his strong belief, that their Lordships' House and the country were desirous to see that correspondence brought to a termination. It must be manifest, from what had already been produced, that it could not now be continued with any definite and practical object; and that if it were still continued in the same tone and temper in which it had been conducted, it might lead to serious mischief.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid,

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that an answer to the last despatch of his noble Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had been shown to his noble Friend. Her Majesty's Government would take the very earliest opportunity of laying it upon the Table of the House. It was evident that there was a desire to see this correspondence at an end; but however desirous they might be to see it concluded, he could not say whether it might not require some observation. All he could say on this occasion was, that Her Majesty's Government were most desirous to lay before the House the fullest details of the whole correspondence.

OFFICE OF REGISTRAR OF FRIENDLY SOCIETIES IN IRELAND.
EARL ST. GERMANSsaid, he had given notice of his intention to present a petition from Mr. R. W. Mara, late Registrar of Friendly Societies in Ireland, complaining of his removal from that office; but that, in consequence of the necessary documents connected with the subject, by some accident or other, not reaching his hands, he would be unable to do so. The noble Earl then observed, that Mr. Mara had held the office of Registrar of Friendly Societies in Ireland under the late Government, but that the present Attorney General had removed him, and appointed another person in his stead, notwithstanding the alteration of the Act, the spirit of which evidently intended, that from and after its becoming law the office should be of a permanent character. The office was similar in its nature to that filled with so much credit in England by Mr. Tidd Pratt, whose appointment was permanent, and not dependent upon any change of Government. A case had been submitted for the opinion of a very eminent gentleman at the Irish bar, Mr. Napier, whose opinion appeared to be in favour of a permanent tenure. He (the noble Earl) felt himself unable to decide between the opinions of Mr. Napier and the Attorney General; but the impression on his mind was, that it was not the intention of the Parliamentary Committee to whom the Bill had been referred to make the appointment dependent upon a change of Government. Whether the real meaning of the Act was as Mr. Napier had construed it, or whether it was in accordance with the Irish Attorney General's opinion, he knew not; but he believed Mr. Mara's deposal from office was in violation of the spirit of the Act. Mr. Tidd Pratt had not been removed from his
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office; and the case of that gentleman was exactly similar. After some other remarks the noble Earl concluded by moving for copies of any letters or communications which may have passed between the Government and Mr. Mara, on his removal from the office of Registrar of Friendly Societies in Ireland.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwould only trouble the House with a very few words in reply to the noble Earl opposite. He was not at all cognizant of any circumstances connected with the removal from his office of Mr. Mara until within the last twenty-four hours, when he had made some inquiries respecting it, in consequence of the notice of Motion given by the noble Earl. It was quite true that Mr. Tidd Pratt had not been removed from his office; but it should be borne in mind that Mr. Tidd Pratt had become identified with friendly societies from their earliest formation, and the public had derived great advantage from the ability and perseverance with which he had almost exclusively devoted his mind to that important subject. The situation of Registrar of Friendly Societies in England was placed upon a very different footing to that in Ireland or Scotland. It was the established practice in Ireland, that the person filling the situation should be an assistant to, and in the confidence of, the Attorney General; and it was owing to such practice that Mr. Mara had obtained his situation. The situation was always changed with the Attorney General; and Mr. Mara would not have obtained his situation at all had not such been the established practice. The only question for consideration, therefore, was, whether it could be held by any fair construction in the reading of the recent Act, that the intention was to alter the temporary nature of the office, and make it permanent. The law officers in Ireland and Scotland continued to act in this matter as their predecessors had always done, and appointed persons who were in their confidence and competent to assist them; and, in doing so, he did not think they had acted in contravention of the law.
EARL ST. GERMANSsaid, the only question was, whether Mr. Mara's appointment ought not to have been re-made. As it was the intention of Parliament to make the situation a permanent one, and as Mr. Mara had the good fortune to be in office at the time of the alteration of the Act, he considered he ought to have been continued in it.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEthought Mr. Mara had been unlucky; but considered that, under the circumstances, he had no just cause of complaint.
LORD CAMPBELLAfter a few words from LORD CAMPBELL,
The EARL of ST. GERMANSwithdrew his Motion.
House adjourned.