Sitting of 25 January 1847

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1° Buck Wheat, etc. Importation; Brewing from Sugar; Labouring Poor; Poor Relief (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Thetford Union, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement.—From St. Pancras, for Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—From York Union, for Repeal of the Poor Removal Act.—From Assessors and Collectors of Taxes of Worcester, complaining of the Inadequacy of their Remuneration.—From Bridgewater, for the Adoption of Measures for the Relief of the Destitute Irish, and for the Enactment of a Just and Efficient Poor Law for Ireland and Scotland.—From Habergham-Eaves, for Limiting the Hours of
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Labour in Factories.—From Bury St. Edmunds, and Glasgow, for Allowing the Use of Sugar and Molasses in Breweries and Distilleries.—From Sunderland, for carrying into effect the Report of the Select Committee with respect to Lighthouses.—From Enfield, and several other places, for Employing Ships at the disposal of Government in Importing Grain and Provisions into Ireland.

HONG-KONG.
DR. BOWRINGput the following question to the Under Secretary for the Colonies:—"Whether any answer has been received to the communications made from the Colonial Office as to the infliction of corporal punishment by the police courts at Hong-Kong? Whether any steps have been taken to prevent the infliction of corporal punishment, whether by flogging, bastinadoing, or cutting off the tails of the Chinese, when they have been unable to pay pecuniary fines? Whether an ordinance circulated in the Chinese newspapers (No. 10, of 1844), has been brought to the notice of Her Majesty's Government, and obtained their sanction; such ordinance appearing to authorize whatever barbarous and brutal punishments may be inflicted under the Chinese code, or according to Chinese usages? 'And be it enacted, that in lieu of the whole or any part of any penalty provided by the law, statute, or ordinance whatsoever, it shall be lawful for the court of justice before whom the matter shall be adjudicated upon, to sentence any offender, being a native of China, or a native of Hong-Kong, of Chinese origin, to undergo such punishment in conformity with the usages of China as has hitherto been usually inflicted on natives of China committing offences in this colony."
MR. HAWESsaid, that the hon. Member last Session drew attention to the case of a Chinese who had been subjected to corporal punishment: and he (Mr. Hawes) told him that all the circumstances connected with that case should be inquired into. The noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department had in consequence written to the Governor of Hong-Kong, and the following explanation had been received:—The Chinese in question had been guilty of felony, and was arrested. A rescue, attended with considerable violence, was attempted by a large number of persons. However, the offender and the parties attempting the rescue, were finally captured, and on conviction were subjected to a fine of five dollars, or to corporal punishment to the extent of twenty strokes with a rattan, and also, he must confess,

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to the loss of their tails. But it should be borne in mind that those seas were infested with gangs of violent and lawless men, and that it was difficult to find any punishment applicable to them which would be of beneficial effect, imprisonment for any long period being out of the question. Consequently the magistrate had the power of inflicting on the Chinese the punishment of the loss of their tails. His hon. Friend had called the attention of the House to an ordinance sanctioned by the Crown in 1844, not lightly, but after a great deal of consideration. He was bound to admit it to be quite impossible to permit the criminal law of China to be incorporated with the British law, the former comprehending some of the most ingenious barbarities that could be devised. He would therefore promise that on that particular point further inquiry should be made, and the whole subject of the criminal law of Hong-Kong brought under the immediate attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department.

ALLEGED CRUELTIES TO SIKH PRISONERS.
DR. BOWRING, referring to what passed on this subject on the first day of the Session, observed, that the statement originated in a local newspaper of considerable circulation, the Stamford Mercury, and, coming to the knowledge of the members of the Peace Society, was still more widely circulated through their agency. He had been applied to by that body to explain under what circumstances they had given circulation to it. The fact was, such a letter had been written in India and despatched to England, as could be proved by the postmarks, though he believed that anything so horrible as that letter represented could not take place in modern times, or in the English army.
MR. F. MAULEentirely exonerated the members of the Peace Society from being wilful circulators of the report in question with a knowledge of its falsehood. The letter purported to be written by a soldier of the 80th regiment, and he (Mr. Maule) had seen a transcript of the letter certified as a copy by the Lord Mayor. The statement had been referred to Lord Gough, who instituted a court of inquiry on the subject; and he (Mr. Maule) had a report of that court of inquiry, containing this man's evidence. The man said that he did not write such a statement to his father. The case appeared to be, that to
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his father he made one statement, and to the court of inquiry he made a contrary one. He (Mr. Maule) had forwarded a fac-simile of his letter to Lord Gough, directing him to make further inquiry respecting it.

SUGAR IN BREWING.
MR. HINDLEYinquired whether all persons would be allowed by the Government plan to use sugar in brewing?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERstated, that at present any persons not selling beer might use sugar in brewing; and the Government proposed to take off the restriction on the use of sugar in brewing with respect to all persons whatsoever.

STATE OF IRELAND.
LORD J. RUSSELLspoke as follows: Sir, I feel that I never had so much need of the indulgence of the House as I have upon the present occasion; but I feel, at the same time, that I never had so little need to ask for that indulgence, for I feel sure, from the temper which the House has already displayed, from the sense which prevails of the magnitude of the calamity that has occurred, and of the further calamity still impending—from its sense of the danger that would arise in now interposing any party feelings with the consideration of this subject—and from the forbearance which I have already experienced—I feel sure that I need not, on the present occasion, ask its indulgence, but that it will be voluntarily bestowed. In considering the question of the state of Ireland, I will first proceed to lay down the order in which I propose to treat the subject. I propose to notice, first, generally, what is the condition of that part of the United Kingdom in which this calamity has occurred; secondly, to make a general statement of what has been done during the recess of Parliament—what has been done in pursuance of Acts of Parliament—how far those measures have succeeded—how far I think they have been deficient; and then to state what we propose to do to meet the present emergency and at the present time. After having made that statement, I shall ask the attention of the House, while I proceed to invite some consideration of other measures which are calculated, in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government, to improve the general condition of Ireland, and to lay the foundations for permanent prosperity. I shall also

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take the liberty of mentioning some other subjects which, although they have been under consideration, have not yet been so fully considered that measures concerning them have been matured; and I will state generally the view which we take of those subjects. I shall, in conclusion, ask the assent of the House to the introduction of two Bills, one for the purpose of rendering valid certain acts which have been done under the authority of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, as communicated in a letter of my right hon. Friend near me, the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant; and the second, a Bill for the improvement of private estates in Ireland, in the spirit of the Treasury Minute of the 1st of December, which is well known to this House and to the country. Sir, in proceeding to consider the condition of the country in which this calamity has occurred, I think it the safest course to use the guarded language of the report made on the inquiry respecting provision made by Poor Laws in Ireland, and to ask the House to infer from that report how great was likely to be the calamity if there should be a total failure of the potato crop in that country. In the First Report of that Poor Inquiry Commission—a commission including many persons of considerable authority, who were Irishmen, and well acquainted with their country—they give their reason for not making a report so soon as was expected, and they say—
"The great proportion of the population about and amongst whom the inquiry was to be made is constantly fluctuating between mendicancy and independent labour. In whole districts, scarcely one of that class of substantial capitalist farmers so universal in England can be found. The small resident gentry are but few, and the substantial tradesman is not to be met with at intervals of two or three miles, as in England; for there are but few towns of sufficient trade to create such a class. The clergy of the various persuasions, and the proprietors, when resident, are in many cases so much at variance with each other, or with the working population, upon political questions, that great caution was requisite in regard to the manner and degree in which we could avail ourselves of their assistance. Similar difficulties existed with regard to the constabulary, from the frequent collisions in which they are placed with the people; and parochial authorities can scarcely be said to exist."
In their Third Report, which was the foundation of the measure that was then adopted, they state—
"It appears that in Great Britain the agricultural families constitute little more than a fourth, while in Ireland they constitute about two-thirds of the whole population; that there were in Great Britain, in 1831, 1,055,982 agricultural labourers;
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in Ireland, 1,131,715, although the cultivated land of Great Britain amounts to about 34,250,000 acres, and that of Ireland only to about 14,600,000. We thus find that there are in Ireland about five agricultural labourers for every two that there are for the same quantity of land in Great Britain. It further appears that the agricultural produce of Great Britain is more than four times that of Ireland; that agricultural wages vary from 6d. to 1s. a day; that the average of the country in general is about 8½d.; and that the earnings of the labourers come, on an average of the whole class, to from 2s. to 2s. 6d. a week, or thereabouts, for the year round. Thus circumstanced, it is impossible for the able-bodied, in general, to provide against sickness or the temporary absence of employment, or against old age, or the destitution of their widows and children, in the contingent event of their own premature decease. A great portion of them are insufficiently provided at any time with the commonest necessaries of life. Their habitations are wretched hovels; several of a family sleep together upon straw or upon the bare ground, sometimes with a blanket, sometimes even without so much to cover them; their food commonly consists of dry potatoes, and with these they are at times so scantily supplied as to be obliged to stint themselves to one spare meal in the day. There are even instances of persons being driven by hunger to seek sustenance in wild herbs. They sometimes get a herring, or a little milk; but they never get meat, except at Christmas, Easter, or Shrovetide. Some go in search of employment to Great Britain during the harvest; others wander through Ireland with the same view. The wives and children of many are occasionally obliged to beg; they do so reluctantly and with shame, and in general go to a distance from home, in order that they may not be known. Mendicancy, too, is the sole resource of the aged and impotent of the poorer classes in general, when children or relatives are unable to support them. To it, therefore, crowds are driven for the means of existence; and the knowledge that such is the fact leads to an indiscriminate giving of alms, which encourages idleness, imposture, and general crime."
Such was the description, given upon the most undoubted authority, of the state of the labouring classes in Ireland, even amidst times of comparative plenty: it may be easily imagined that when those who are best off, in the most prosperous years, earn scarcely sufficient, those who had then been on the brink of famine, must have been unable to resist the flood of destitution and wretchedness which has over-whelmed them by the failure of the potato crop. Such has been unfortunately the case in the present year, during the visitation of a calamity which is, perhaps, almost without a parallel, because it acts upon a very large population, a population of nearly 8,000,000—for the Irish have gradually increased to that amount—while the famine is such as has not been known in modern times; indeed, I should say it is like a famine of the thirteenth century

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acting upon the population of the nineteenth. Such being the general condition of the population, and the nature of the calamity that has befallen them, I will state what is the course which was adopted during the past year and down to the present time. When Parliament met last year, it was apprehended, that the potatoes having been much injured, there was danger of a very great scarcity ill that country. That apprehension was not fully justified by the event. It was impossible, as I think, for any one exactly to say, what the extent of the misfortune would be; but the fact, I believe, was, there having been a very plentiful crop of potatoes in the previous year, that although there was a very great quantity of potatoes injured in 1845, yet the quantity of food in Ireland in the early part of last year was not very deficient. Parliament, however, took means very early in the Session to supply food to the destitute by means of giving employment upon the roads, and by public works. It was enacted, that upon presentment sessions being held in any barony, there should be a power to apply for money from the Treasury upon loan, and there should be a grant of money. Under this law, presentments were made to the extent of more than 1,000,000 l., I think; the presentments to the 31st of August, I believe, were 1,372,000 l.; what was recommended by the Board of Works amounted to 476,000 l., and there was actually expended to that time 290,000 l. Before the end of the Session of Parliament, upon the recommendation of the present Government, Parliament passed a further Act, by which, on the one hand, the Lord Lieutenant was enabled to require special barony sessions to meet, in order to make presentments for public works; and, on the other hand, as a check to what it was thought might be expected in the shape of extravagant expenditure, the whole was to be advanced by the Treasury, and all the money was afterwards to be repaid. Very soon after the Session of Parliament had closed, there was a desire in many parts of Ireland to have presentment sessions, and to have public works sanctioned by the Government, but more especially there was a great demand to have those public works continued and completed which had been authorized by the Act of the early part of last Session. There was some objection made on the part of the Treasury to that proceeding, because the harvest was just coming in;
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there was a great demand for labour, and it did not seem to us, as these were works intended solely for relief, that it was advisable to complete them; however, it being put before us as a matter of good faith, an order was given that those works should be completed. But these operations, and the demand for new works, made it extremely difficult for the Board of Works, although it was reinforced by the addition of two gentlemen exceedingly competent, I believe, for the task assigned them, to make all their arrangements before these presentments came upon them in great numbers. Very soon, however, after the works were commenced, there came a complaint on the part of the proprietors and country gentlemen in Ireland, that these works were useless; that the roads which were presented for were not wanted; that other works were likewise in themselves useless; and that they were not reproductive measures. I own I do not myself attach any great value to that objection. I think, the object being relief, and to combine that relief with a certain amount of work which should show that industry was not entirely abandoned, that the productive nature of the works was a question of secondary importance, and that the use for which they were intended was to preserve the people, in the first place, from loss of life, and, in the next place, from the indiscriminate asking of alms. In this country, during the distress which happened four or five years ago, in the course of one or two years the poor rates were increased from 4,000,000 l. to 5,000,000 l., an increase of 1,000,000 l. a year; but, if an examination were made into the manner in which that million was expended, it would not be found that there was any great amount of productive works to show for it; it must have been spent either in direct relief, or relief with such occupations as are given to poor men, in order to separate the man who is really destitute from the impostor. Therefore, I do not, I say, myself attach any very great value to the objection which was thus made; but, at the same time, as it was most desirable to obtain the co-operation of the landed gentlemen of Ireland, it was desirable likewise, if possible, to have the works productive. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with the consent of the Cabinet, after the case had been represented, sanctioned a plan by which the sessions were allowed to present for productive works in electoral districts. But this plan had not been long

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adopted before there was a still further desire expressed for what was called a townland division, and that the works should be separately presented for townlands. Now, these townlands are of various sizes and dimensions in Ireland: some of them are exceedingly small, not above a hundred acres, others are of a tolerable size; but I believe, taking a general average of the whole townlands of Ireland, they do not contain above 350 acres each. The question was, whether it were possible to accede to such a demand. It was quite obvious that, if it were permitted that every person who was the proprietor or occupier of a townland should only make himself responsible for his own townland, there would be no general interest felt in providing for the destitute, and more especially that the possessor of grass land, or of land from which there had been clearance, would have some two or three destitute to provide for, while hundreds were pressing upon the means of other townlands, and ruining the proprietors. It appeared, therefore, to the Lord Lieutenant, and, as far as I have heard, it appeared to almost every person, even those who were at first advocates of this plan, that it could not be beneficially adopted. But it was said, that although that plan could not be adopted, yet there was another scheme which might, and which would prevent the evil of those who were ready to employ labour, ready to be enterprising, ready to improve their estates, being obliged to maintain the tenants and labourers of those who entirely neglected their duty towards them—and that was the plan of allowing the townland division to take place, but obliging the proprietors and occupiers of the townlands to employ a certain number of the destitute, so as to spend the whole amount of the assessment which was laid upon them. Now, upon this subject I do not know that anything better can be said than the observations which were made upon it in a public letter by Mr. Smith O'Brien, a Member of this House, in a letter to the proprietors of Ireland. He said that he thought it was better than the plan which was actually in operation; but he went on to say—
"It will, however, have the effect of still further pauperizing the labour of the country. To elucidate this result in the simplest manner, let us suppose that there are 100 labourers in a district which belongs to two landlords, whose income is equal, and one of whom now employs fifty independent workmen, whilst the other does not employ a single labourer. It is at present necessary to provide for the maintenance of fifty unemployed
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labourers. These are now set to work upon the roads, and the expense of their maintenance falls upon the two properties in equal proportions. If the proposed plan be adopted, the improving landowner will naturally desire to exempt himself from taxation, without employing more hands than he at present requires. This he could do by dismissing all his present workmen. There would then be 100 surplus labourers in the district. As these must be maintained at the expense of the two properties, each proprietor would eventually be compelled, in self-defence, to employ fifty. The landowner who originally employed this number will thus escape taxation, without engaging more labour than he requires; but his labourers will cease to be independent workmen, chosen and paid by himself, and subject to his own control. They will be sent to him by the relief committee of the district; they will be placed under the superintendence of an expensive staff of stipendiaries, appointed by the Board of Works, and will be paid out of the funds raised for the relief of the poor. A system not very dissimilar to this was acted upon in several parts of England previous to the Poor Law Amendment Act of 1831, and was found to produce effects the mest demoralizing to the labouring population—paralysing all the energy of independent labour and individual enterprise, and, in many respects, operating most unjustly upon particular classes of property."
I conceive that these observations of the hon. Member for Limerick are perfectly justifiable. The experience of England was as he describes it to have been; the labourers sent by the parish upon the farm in the occupation of a farmer were not like the men whom he employed himself at his own choice; they were idle and improvident men, and almost every farmer who was conversant with that system would say that he would rather give 10 s. a week to a labourer whom he chose himself, than 5s. to one of those useless men who were sent to him by the parish. I think, therefore, that the plans proposed in order to remedy the evil of having so many persons engaged in unproductive labour in Ireland were full of danger. I admit, and shall presently state, the great evils of the present system; but I think we should have incurred still greater danger, if, with a view of remedying those evils, we had done that which, I conceive, is one of the most pernicious things that can be done with the labour of a country—if we had confounded independent labour with poor relief—if we had rendered paupers those who ought to be independent labourers, and, by way of making our relief somewhat more efficient, had permanently injured the great and important class to which those labourers belong. Sir, the landowners and proprietors who were in favour of these alterations, not obtaining them, found great practical difficulty

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in carrying into effect the instructions issued by the Lord Lieutenant. They found, when they came to deal with an electoral district, that while two proprietors in that district were ready to adopt the reproductive works, a third or a fourth utterly refused to have any money advanced to him for those purposes. They found, therefore, that their operations were useless; that they did but in a small degree diminish their liabilities; and therefore the proceeding, although it has been to a great degree acted on, has not been such a complete substitution for the system of public works as it was at first supposed that it would be. But, Sir, as the plans were carried out, the number of the destitute increased, and with the number of the destitute the difficulties were augmented of putting any plans of the kind into safe and beneficial operation. I should say that, in the first place, notwithstanding the pains taken by the Board of Works for the purpose of having efficient persons under them, it was found impossible to have trustworthy and efficient persons for works so extensive. It was found, in the next place, that the labourers very often refused to undertake the tasks allotted to them; and more than one of the persons who endeavoured to induce the parties employed to labour well for the wages given to them were maltreated; more than one were in danger of their lives, in consequence of their efforts to discharge their duty. But at length the plan has proceeded to such an extent that it is quite impossible for any public board efficiently to superintend so vast an amount of work. The establishment of the Board of Works—I shall not read all the particulars, the names and titles given of the officers, chief clerks, check clerks, and pay clerks, but the total number of the persons employed—amounts to 11,587. The number of baronies into which Ireland is divided is 360, and of this number 285 have held presentment sessions, and the amount of presentments sanctioned up to this date is 2,410,216 l. The number of labourers has increased from 30,135 in the month of September, to 440,687 in the month of December. According to last week's account it was more than 480,000; and there is no doubt entertained at the present time that they amount to 500,000 persons. It is not to be supposed that there is not very great utility in having employed these persons. It is reckoned that five persons gain their subsistence from every person who is employed.
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I doubt the accuracy of the estimate; but taking it at four, there are 2,000,000 of persons who are subsisted by labour on the public works. The expense at the same time has been enormous. The weekly estimate on the first week of December was 114,000 l.; on the second week, 156,000 l.; on the third week, 158,000 l.; on the fourth week, 154,000 l.; and, so far as we are acquainted with the three weeks of January which have elapsed, the estimate for the first week was 157,000 l., for the week beginning the 9th, 156,000 l.; and for the week beginning the 16th, 172,000 l.; making the total amount 585,000 l. in the whole of December, and 485,000 l. in three weeks of January. It is estimated that the whole expense this month will be between 700,000 l. and 800,000 l. It is impossible to view this immense expenditure, in an undertaking of so vast a nature, without seeing that there must be great concomitant evils attending such operations. There must be great evils at any time, but there are peculiar evils in the present state of Ireland. One of those evils is owing to the difficulties I have just stated were experienced in procuring efficient labour from the people employed. When the works commenced it was generally reported to us by persons who had travelled through the country, that these people were to be seen loitering idly about the roads doing no work. The Irish Government said that task-work ought to be introduced. There was considerable difficulty in carrying out that resolution, and much resistance was made for the first two or three weeks. But the Lord Lieutenant was peremptory upon that point, and task-work was introduced. So far a good example was set. But a new evil sprang up, which was, that those men who became accustomed to task-work earned wages considerably more than any money wages which could otherwise be got. They earned 1s. 4d., and 1s. 6d., and 1s. 10 d. a day, in some cases; and there was a very great run upon the public works, a general competition to be placed upon the public works; and the farmers could not obtain the labourers they wished to employ. But, more than this, a very great abuse sprang up; and farmers and persons holding 20, 30, 40, 50, or 60 acres of land, obtained tickets from the relief committees, and placed either their sons, or men employed on their farms, upon the relief works, and received the money which ought to have gone to the really destitute. And thus, with an immense expenditure for the

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relief of destitution, there were very great numbers of destitute persons who did not receive the benefit. Sir, I shall read part of a letter from Colonel Jones, who is at the head of the Board of Public Works, written so late as the 19th of January to Mr. Trevelyan. The Secretary of the Treasury, Colonel Jones, says—
"We are pressed for instructions by our officers to know how they are to act; those which now regulate their actions are no longer applicable to the altered state of affairs; if they refuse employment they are held up as the stumbling-block to the poor between them and the means of obtaining food. I am of opinion that it would be better in many cases to give food than to be paying money away as we are now obliged to do, at the same time the people are discontented at the small sums they are entitled to. The fact is, that the system of task-work is no longer beneficial employment to many; their bodily strength is gone, and their spirits depressed, they have not power to exert themselves sufficiently to earn the ordinary day's wages; this necessary outlay will be stigmatized as a wasteful expenditure, and the works will be left incomplete. Mr. Barry, our fishery inspector, has just returned from Glandore, near Clonakelty. The accompanying is a short statement of affairs in that district. You will perceive the great benefits derived from the soup establishments—and so very cheap in the preparation; the small amount of nourishment has a very great effect upon the famished individuals whose stamina are thus partially revived. So far as we are concerned, I believe our powers have attained the utmost. We have, I trust, made a good stand; but the numbers which are now forcing themselves upon us will incapacitate our officers from affording employment, and all our efforts, hitherto so successful, will be paralysed."
Sir, the opinion of the Government, previously to the receipt of this letter, was, that the system had become so vast, and, at the same time, the destitution and the want of food had so greatly increased, that it was desirable to attempt some other temporary scheme, by which, if possible, some of the evils which they have now to meet might be mitigated, and with so vast an expenditure of money that more effectual relief should be afforded. It has appeared to us, that it will be desirable to form in districts—say electoral districts—relief committees, which relief committees shall be empowered to receive subscriptions, levy rates, and receive donations from the Government; that by means of these they should purchase food, and establish soup kitchens in the different districts; that they should, so far as they are able, distribute rations with this purchased food to the famishing inhabitants; and that, furnishing that food, they should not require as indispensable the test of work,
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but that labouring men should be allowed to work on their own plots of ground, or for the farmers, and thus tend to produce food for the next harvest, and procure, perhaps, some small wages to enable them to support their families. After we considered this scheme, I communicated it to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. We have consulted the various officers of the Board of Works and at the head of the Commissariat. They are prepared to consider it favourably; and we shall endeavour, first by a preparatory measure, and next by a Bill, to be proposed to Parliament, to carry into effect this arrangement. There is a person in this country conversant with Ireland, having been long engaged in the public works of that country, who earned, not only the general esteem of the Governments he has served, but of the people among whom his operations were carried on. The person to whom I allude is Sir John Burgoyne. He is now inspector of Government fortifications in this country; and my wish was, that he should undertake this task. I sent for him the other day, in order to propose that he should undertake it. He told me that he had obtained three months leave of absence, and that, instead of devoting those three mouths to relaxation from the duties he was performing, he was quite willing to devote them to the service of the country, and go, at any time he was required, on the discharge of the duty which I proposed. He will be in communication with the Lord Lieutenant, and will have the co-operation of Colonel Jones, and the Board of Works, of the Commissariat, the head of the Poor Law Commission, the chief of the Constabulary, and of other persons who are competent and ready to give him assistance. In proposing this measure, with the view of affording, if possible, more efficient means of relieving the poor people who now are in want of food, and, at the same time, of setting loose great numbers of persons for the ordinary operations of agriculture, we must take care—and the Lord Lieutenant is prepared to take care—that the substitution of this system for public works shall be made as easy in the transition as possible. There will be no rude dismissal of the people at once, who otherwise might find great difficulty in obtaining subsistence; but when the arrangements are made for carrying the scheme I have described into effect, it will be provided that no further presentment shall be made, and no new public works undertaken. The

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Lord Lieutenant says, in regard to many roads which have been begun, that, if now abandoned, they will be left in the most incomplete and inconvenient state, and that it is desirable to devise some mode in which that difficulty can be obviated, and these roads completed. With regard to the money which has been already expended, and is now being expended, upon these public works, a claim has been made, that the whole of it should not be a burden upon Ireland. The calamity is so severe and extensive, that, passing by the remote causes of it, and looking how heavily it has pressed upon the present possessors of property in Ireland—upon the whole, I think it right that the whole burden should not remain upon Irish property. We shall, therefore, propose, on a future day, that an arrangement should be made by Parliament, by which, in each succeeding year, when an instalment becomes due, upon half that instalment being paid, the other half shall be remitted. We propose, however, that the whole debt should be kept up till one half of it is paid; and that when the half of it is paid, the remainder should be remitted; and thus it will be provided, that one half of the whole charge should fall upon the public. I should state, on the financial part of this question, as regards the sums now issued, that they are issued out of the balance in the Exchequer—out of the Consolidated Fund; and that neither is there, nor has there been, any intention of making any new issue of Exehequer Bills to meet that demand. But it must at the same time be consider ed, that when I make such a proposition as that now laid before the House, it is one which places a very considerable burden upon the finances of this country; and that placing that burden upon the finances of this country, I do feel myself disabled from making some propositions I should otherwise have made, but which, considering the very heavy burdens arising from the destitution this present year, I should think it hardly fair to the people of this country to bring forward. It may be said, "Let the burden be borne by the Consolidated Fund—let it be borne by the Imperial Treasury and Exchequer." I must always recollect that those sums are not to be granted by Government or Parliament without the most serious consideration; that these are sums derived from payments by the people of this country; from the taxes which they pay on their soap, their sugar, their tea, their
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coffee. It is that which forms the surplus by which we are able to come to the assistance of Ireland; and while I believe there is every disposition to do all that is liberal, I do think that we must, in justice to the people of this country, consider their difficulties and their privations, and by what hard labour they are earning their daily bread. As to the other part of this subject which I mentioned, namely, the advances made under authority of the Lord Lieutenant's order, and of the letter of my right hon. Friend (Mr. Labouchere)—the advances having been made to persons who really wished to assist in carrying this measure into effect, and to effect improvements, making their own estates liable—we do think it necessary that the terms of the Treasury Minute of the 1st of December should be applied to those who have accepted advances under Mr. Labouchere's letter, and that instead of requiring repayment in ten years, a period of twenty-two years shall be taken; that the provisions for carrying this proposal into effect should be in terms of the Drainage Act of last year; and that, in regard to its beneficial employment, the whole of that money will be expected to be paid as under that Act. Sir, I have stated what I think we can do for present alleviation. There is, however, another question on which I have to make a somewhat, I must confess, doubtful proposal; but upon the whole we think we are right in recommending it to Parliament. It is, that we should be empowered to advance a sum not exceeding 50,000 l. in the whole, to be repaid before the end of this year, the 31st of December, 1847, to enable the proprietors to furnish seed for the land. I do not think it a safe course that the Government should make advances to small tenants. It is very dangerous that the Government should be introduced as the lender to a great number of cottier tenants and other occupants of small holdings; but if the money be advanced to the landlords, it may be given for their tenantry to purchase seed, and so may be most beneficially applied. In stating these measures, I wish at the same time to declare, that we cannot expect, and that we do not expect, to be able by any measures which the Government, or by any measures which Parliament may adopt, to ward off or prevent the effects of the awful visitation under which Ireland is suffering. It is not in the power of man to do away with the effects of such a calamity. Nor, Sir, should I think that any one would impose upon us

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so impossible a task, or ask us to make so presumptuous an attempt, were it not that I have read in one of the newspapers an address signed by the Marquess of Sligo and Mr. Moore, both most respectable persons—both persons well entitled to deference on the part of their poorer countrymen—who write thus to these countrymen, having, as it said in the newspaper, travelled through twenty-seven counties in order to make their proposition popular and acceptable:—
"We, therefore, earnestly entreat you to meet at Castlebar, at 11 o'clock on Monday next, quietly, peaceably, and like men worthy of the rights you meet to demand—then and there to petition Parliament to take such steps as may insure an immediate, constant, and cheap supply of food for the people of this country during the famine that surrounds us, and the famine that is impending. We feel confident that a demand thus boldly but constitutionally made, will be promptly responded to, and that by a strong and decided effort in the people's cause, the people will yet be saved."
I must confess I am astonished at this. I am astonished that, at a time of famine, men of education, that men who ought to lead their countrymen, should tell them that they were to demand from Parliament "such steps as may insure an immediate, constant, and cheap supply of food." Why, Sir, this is a task which is impossible for us—a task which they ought to tell their countrymen the destitution under which they are suffering has made impossible for man—a task which is beyond all human power; and that all that we can possibly do is in some measure to alleviate the existing distress—somewhat to lighten the dreadful calamity which afflicts them; and it is their duty to say to these people, "You are not to imagine that the Government can turn scarcity and even famine into plenty." But what surprises me more in this announcement is, that it so happens that at Castlebar, where the people of the surrounding country are requested to meet, there is an union workhouse, which union workhouse ought to contain 600 inmates, but which at present contains not more than 130, the doors being closed against other persons by the guardians saying that it is impossible for them to levy the rates in order to enable those other persons who are in want of food to come into the workhouse. Amongst those who have not paid their rates—who have not furnished the money by which the famine might in some degree be averted—are some of those who we cannot but suppose are fully able to pay what is due from them. Sir, I cannot
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but see in this proposal an unhappy tendency—an unhappy tendency which I have more than once remarked—to recommend to others to do some vague and impossible duty — to call upon the Government or Parliament to do something the practicability of which has not been considered—to confer some benefit, it may be of a visionary and impossible kind; while the plain and practical duty of paying the rates for the assistance of the starving men, women, and children in their neighbourhood is left neglected and forgotten. Sir, I am obliged to say, therefore, that while we attempt all that we think practicable, we must, in the first place, refuse to make promises of doing that which is out of our power; and in the next place, we must call upon and expect those who have local duties to perform in Ireland, to perform those duties, and to assist the Government and Parliament in their arduous duty; and when I say that I expect this, I am quite sure that many will perform it, because I know that in many, very many instances, the resident proprietors in Ireland have been most ready with their money, with their time, and with their attendance in endeavouring to provide for the relief of their destitute countrymen. I proceed then to another part of the subject, and I trust that the House will give me their attention while I ask them to follow the proposal of other measures which we think may be beneficial, not only now, but permanently, to Ireland. Let me say, in the first place, that I think, that although, unhappily, we have been diverted from the observance of general principles with respect to these matters, yet I do think that we ought to observe general principles as far as possible, and that these general principles prescribe thus much with respect to the interference of the Government. That interference may be given in three ways, and these three ways ought, as far as possible, to be kept separate and distinct. First, the Government, with the support of Parliament, may grant assistance to individual proprietors for the purpose of enabling them to improve their private properties. Secondly, it may assist them in public works by making roads, or partly by grants in aid of public works, which are evidently of public utility. And thirdly, it may enact that relief should be given by law to the destitute. Now, I think that those three modes should be kept as far as possible distinct—that is to say, that when money

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is advanced to private individuals for the purpose of improving their property, you should take security so far that it is used for that purpose, and not spent in extravagancies in Paris or Naples; but that beyond this there should be as little interference as possible with the outlay of the money—that there should be as little interference as possible, for instance, to compel the proprietors to employ a certain class of labourers, or to conduct their works in a certain particular manner which the Government may lay down as the best, or in any other way which would prevent the proprietors having the free use of the money advanced. Such is the principle of the first measure of which I am about to speak. It is a measure founded upon various Acts which have been passed by this House at different times up to the Drainage Act of last Session, and upon the terms given to the public in the Treasury Minute of the 1st December last. According to those Acts, and to that Minute, it is proposed, that where the improvement of estates by drainage, or by any other improvement, such as the reclamation of waste lands, will produce certain improvements in its value, so that the legal heirs might not be prejudiced—in that case certain advances shall be made from the public funds of this country. The usual rate for advances from the Treasury is 5 per cent; in the Drainage Act of last year it was 3½ per cent, with repayment in twenty-two years, making 6 per cent each year till the expiry of the twenty-two years, by which time the whole sum borrowed was to be repaid. Now we propose to take the terms proposed in the Drainage Act, and extend them to the various improvements mentioned. We propose not to confine the improvements to drainage, and to do away with certain technicalities which, according to that Act—but for which, I may remark, the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lincoln) was not responsible—(they were introduced after the Bill had left his hands)—made it difficult for tenants for life to borrow money. We intend to do away with this technical difficulty, and to advance money to enable proprietors to improve their estates—such advances to be at the rate of 3½ per cent, and on condition of its being repaid in twenty-two years; or, if it should happen to be more convenient for the borrower, in a shorter time. I am convinced that it will be much better to place in this Act now proposed a scheme of this nature, than
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to continue the plan which has been laid down by the Lord Lieutenant, or to combine it with any plan for the relief of the poor, for the reason I have before stated, that the two plans ought to be kept separate and distinct. According to this plan, a great many men will find profitable employment, who otherwise might be excluded from the field of labour, or who would otherwise be destitute, and it will also be of great advantage to the proprietors. We propose, also, with respect to more general works, to consolidate and amend the Drainage Acts now on the Statute-book. According to those acts, in certain cases proprietors of a district may meet and agree to ask a loan for the improvement of their estates by drainage; and if the majority so agree, the minority are bound to join them. Now, in those cases, the drainage will be undertaken by the Board of Works, or carried on under their superintendence. But this alludes to drainage of a more general nature. It will not take place on the private estates of proprietors; it is applicable only to streams and rivers, and other operations of that kind, by which the country will be much improved. We propose, therefore, to consolidate and amend those Acts. It is on the same principle of performing public works that we propose to undertake the reclamation of a portion of the waste lands of Ireland. It has long been stated, in various reports of Commissioners, in reports of Committees of this House, and by eminent writers, that in many cases the reclamation of the waste lands of Ireland would produce profitable employment to the people, and make the lands of great value. Sir R. Kane, in his work On the Industrial Resources of Ireland, says, that the estimate that there are 4,600,000 acres of waste land in Ireland which might be reclaimed and formed into cultivated lands, was perfectly correct, and that it was by no means an exaggerated estimate. We propose to devote 1,000,000 l. to this purpose, and we propose that the land should, if the proprietor be willing to part with it, be purchased; but that if he does not improve it by accepting a loan under this measure, or out of his own resources, and if he refuses to sell, there shall be a compulsory power to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to take and improve waste lands which are below a certain value. The land which we propose to estimate, is land which is below a certain value, say 2s. 6d. per acre. [Mr. GOULBUBN: Is that the annual value?]

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That is the annual value. We propose that such lands shall only be improved and reclaimed so far as general operations are concerned; that roads shall be made; that general drainage shall be effected, and the necessary buildings erected; but that no cultivation of the land shall take place under the direction of a public department; and that the lands having been so reclaimed, shall be divided into lots, which shall not be below a certain amount, nor above a certain amount. I am not at present prepared to fix this amount absolutely, but say that they shall not be less than twenty-five nor more than fifty acres, or some proposal of that kind; and that when these lots have been reclaimed, they may be either sold or let to tenants for a certain number of years, with a determination that the lands let shall be sold at the end of that time. It is intended that we shall not confine ourselves either to letting or sale, but to act as may be found expedient in each particular case. I own that I expect that great advantages will gradually arise from this plan, if it be adopted. I expect that a great number of persons who have hitherto been driven to despair, and many of them into crime, by the great demand for land, will be placed in those holdings, and be able to earn a comfortable living by the produce of their labour. I think likewise, with respect to those who purchase them, that we shall, by means of the land reclaimed and purchased, raise a class of small proprietors, who by their industry and independence will form a valuable link in the future social condition of Ireland. Let me say here, that I do not think—so far as I have been able to form a judgment—that such holdings are the great evil in Ireland. I believe that the particular mode in which land is held has very often been a source of evil in that country, but I do not think that the small divisions have been injurious; and I am the more confirmed in this opinion by finding, that one of the counties in which there is the greatest division—I mean the county of Armagh—is notoriously one of the most flourishing and best cultivated in Ireland. If you compare it or the whole province of Ulster with the province of Munster, you will find that there are many more small holdings, and that property is more divided in the former than in the latter. I believe, therefore, that in adopting a plan of this kiud, with the compulsory power I have described, a very great advantage will be obtained. I now come to the third class of measures;
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but before passing to that, let me here make this observation, that in stating now the measures which we propose immediately, or almost immediately, to bring into Parliament, I am not stating all the measures which we have in contemplation, and which we may hereafter bring forward. But I am now stating the measures which are calculated, as we think, to promote the improvement of Ireland, by enabling the proprietors to obtain funds sufficient to make improvements on their estates, and also by affording means by which works of a more public nature may be carried into effect. I now come to the third class of measures to which I have alluded—that class of measures the object of which is simply to afford relief to the destitute. It will be remembered that when the Poor Law Commission of Inquiry made their Report, they advised that all of a certain class should be relieved; and in that class they included all those who were infirm and permanently disabled. We thought, upon the whole, that it was safer, in the first instance, to have workhouses erected in Ireland—not to confine relief to any particular class of persons, but to allow relief to be given to the destitute able-bodied as well as to the destitute infirm; but to confine that relief to the workhouses. It is not only the experience of the present state of things, but it is an opinion formed upon general views of the state of Ireland, that the poor law ought to be more extensive than it now is. I shall, therefore, propose to bring in a Bill—which is a Bill for the more effectual relief of the destitute poor of Ireland—which shall enact that the guardians of the poor be required to give relief, either in or out of the workhouse, at their discretion, to the infirm and to all those who are permanently disabled by bodily infirmity. I am convinced that this ought to be done, and it will be the means, in the first place, of enabling the guardians to make use of the workhouse for its proper function as a test of destitution; and in the second place, it will enable them to afford relief to that unfortunate class of persons in their own houses—a course which will be both more satisfactory to the general feelings of the people of that country, and more useful in the future working of the system. We propose, likewise, when the workhouse is full, that the Poor Law Commissioners shall have power to direct that in such cases the guardians may give relief out of the workhouse to the able-bodied poor. I am of opinion, however, that this

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is a power which should be cautiously used. I am of opinion that the workhouse should always be kept as a test for able-bodied destitution. But at the same time, as we have seen, there are cases where the workhouses are insufficient to afford accommodation to all the unfortunate persons who are crowding round their doors; we think the Poor Law Commissioners should have power in these cases to make an exception. With respect to able-bodied paupers, I may remark that relief will be given in food only. We likewise propose that there should be relieving officers appointed, and that it should be the duty of such relieving officers, in cases of urgent distress, where there is a danger of starving on the part of persons applying, to give relief, either in or out of the workhouse, until the next meeting of the board of guardians, who shall make provision for such cases according to the general rules which they have sanctioned. Such, therefore, is the nature of the measures which we purpose to introduce immediately. There are, as I have already stated, other measures which have been, and are, under the consideration of the Government. Connected with the first class of measures to which I have alluded, namely, those which are to enable proprietors to make a better use of their property, to increase their capital, and to improve their estates, we have under consideration a measure for facilitating the sale of incumbered estates. There are two modes by which this may be done. One is by adopting the general principle of the Copyhold Enfranchisement Act. Every one knows that Bills are passed in every Session to allow certain individuals to sell portions of their estates, in order to enable them to pay off incumbrances. As one way of carrying into effect the principle to which I have just alluded, I would propose that there should be a general law giving commissioners power to examine into each case brought before them; instead of passing a private Bill in each case, that a general Bill should be passed in which should be included all such cases. Another mode of obtaining the same object has been under consideration, and this was solely by the authority of the Court of Chancery, upon application made to it for that purpose. I cannot, at this moment, say which mode will be finally prefered; all I can state is, that the subject is under consideration. We shall likewise propose a Bill by which those long leasehold tenures in Ireland which are renewable for ever may be
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converted into freeholds. I must say that there is nothing with respect to the general state of Ireland—nothing with respect to its present unfortunate condition, more injurious than the mode in which property is held by various tenures and under various conditions in that country. It very often happens that the proprietor in chief, as he appears to be, of large estate, obtains only a small part of the rent; another head landlord of a great property leases it under him, and the leaseholder has again a middleman under him; so that it is almost impossible to say on whom the duties of property rest. This is a subject worthy of the attention of Parliament, and I hope it will consider how tenures in Ireland may be simplified, and whether it be not possible to establish the same connexion between the proprietor and tenant and labourer in Ireland, as exists in England and Scotland. It is to the want of that connexion I attribute the fact, that, with respect to many frightful cases of destitution in Ireland which have reached the ears of the public, when inquiry has been made as to the persons who were immediately responsible for the destitution, or ought to be called upon to subscribe for the relief of the sufferers, it has been found almost impossible to ascertain upon whom the obligation rested. That is not the case in England and Scotland. In the latter country, where great destitution unfortunately prevails at the present moment, though some of the proprietors' estates are heavily incumbered and charged with debt, yet such is their connexion and sympathy with their tenantry and labourers, that they have made themselves responsible for large advances of money, by means of which alone it was possible to avert some of the dreadful consequences of the impending calamity. Under the second head of public works come fisheries, which have attracted the attention of the Government; but with respect to which I am not at present prepared to make any definite statement to the House. In the course of last autumn three establishments, in the nature of depôts, were made for facilitating the curing of fish, it having been found that, although vast quantities of fish were taken, and still greater quantities might have been caught, the people utterly neglected the adoption of any means for preserving the fish, but threw them on the ground as manure, when by their sale they might have obtained a considerable sum. Although not now prepared with any definite

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statement on the subject, I trust I shall soon be able to bring under the notice of the House a measure relative to the fisheries of Ireland. There is another subject, likewise, with respect to which I am not prepared to make any statement to the House, but upon which I know large expectations are entertained in Ireland—I allude to emigration. I confess I think that, although Parliament may assist emigration to a certain extent, the extravagant expectations which are entertained on this head can never possibly be fulfilled. It is stated by Sir Robert Kane, and truly, that when persons are removed from a locality by emigration, the number removed is never so large as to produce a sensible effect on the population. I do not believe that any emigration which may take place as the result of either private or public exertion, can ever, according to the ordinary amount of emigration, produce such an effect as to enable the remaining population to earn a competent amount of wages. But before we make extraordinary efforts to increase emigration, it is necessary to consider another important point. If we attempt to go beyond that which is the ordinary annual emigration, and to convey a million of persons at once across the ocean, you must look not only to the advantage which you suppose would arise from not having those persons in Ireland competing with other labourers, but you must also inquire what funds, what means, there are in the country to which they may be carried, to secure them subsistence. If by the public means, and a large addition to the public burdens, you convey a hundred thousand persons to the United States, that country would have just cause to complain of our having cast our paupers on her shores, to be maintained by her, when their maintenance was a primary obligation upon ourselves. Then, again, if we should attempt to introduce a hundred thousand emigrants into Canada, the market would be glutted by the redundant supply; and the labourers there, instead of obtaining a fair amount of the means of subsistence, as they do now, would enter into a fierce competition with each other; and thus a state of things would be produced in Nova Scotia and Canada in some respects similar to that from which the emigrants had fled at home. In considering the subject of emigration when I held the seals of the Colonial Department, I was, I confess, disposed to go further than I did, and the obstacle was of a financial nature rather than any unwillingness
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on my part. It appeared to me, however, that the best mode by which emigration could be promoted was by taking charge of the emigrant, not at his present place of abode, not at the port of embarkation, but at the port where he disembarked, and then convey him to some field where he would find a market for his labour. Accordingly, I proposed for that purpose a grant of money, which has since been continued, being in some years more, and in some years less, by means of which many emigrants have been conveyed to Montrcal, to Kingston, and other places in the western part of Canada, and placed in situations where they could earn a subsistence. Now, the emigration which has been going on in this way of late years has been very large. In 1845 the number so emigrating to our North American colonies was 31,303, and to the United States 58,538, making altogether about 90,841. In the first three quarters of the year, 1846, which contains the great bulk of emigration, the number emigrating to the North American colonies was 42,404, to the United States 67,792, making a total number of 110,196. The character of the emigration in 1846 is very similar to that of the two previous seasons. Mr. Hawke, an emigration agent, stated, in his report, that he was not aware that the number of indigent settlers in 1846 had been much greater, in proportion, than usual; but there certainly was a large number of the Irish emigrants in a state of destitution as to clothes and bedding, far exceeding anything he had ever before witnessed. Mr. Buchanan, the agent at Quebec, stated, in his report—
"With reference to the subject of the prospects of the emigration recently received, as well as of that anticipated, I must refer principally to the annexed report from the chief agent for Canada West. I might, at the same time, quote the reports in general of the district agents of the department. They concur in representing that there is little, if any, distress among the emigrants of the last year, unless the consequence of their own fatuity. Employment is generally to be procured at remunerative wages, and provisions and necessaries are plentiful. Some of the public works, which have hitherto afforded employment for recent emigrants, are already, or will shortly, be completed. But other works of similar character are in progress. The St. Lawrence and Atlantic Railway, the Montreal and Lachine Railway, as well as other lines about being commenced in the western section of the province, will probably demand a large amount of emigrant labour in the ensuing season. Very general attention has been recently drawn to the minerals of the country also; and it is possible that one or more associations, for mining and smelting ore, may go into

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early operation. The more closely the resources of the country are examined into, the more extensive appears the field for enterprise and industry."
Seeing, then, that there had been a large amount of emigration last year—seeing that it was observed by the emigration agents that there were still a large number of pauper families from Ireland—I should be deterred from attempting to give a stimulus to emigration, which might have one of two effects: either of sending out a great number of paupers who would be unable to find employment, or, what would perhaps be equally objectionable, causing a waste of the public money by carrying at the expense of the country those who were able to obtain the means of paying for their passage, but who, instead of calling upon their friends and relatives in Canada and other colonies for assistance, would come upon the public funds. Such a system would be destructive of all habits of prudence and foresight. Sir, there are some difficulties in the way of emigration, occasioned by the provisions of the Passenger Act, under the consideration of the Government, which we hope to remove; but whatever measures we may bring forward to facilitate emigration, we wish it to be understood that we do not mean to propose any scheme of a great or extended nature. I know not whether Sir R. Kane's estimate of the resources of Ireland is to be taken altogether as a sober one; but he maintains that so great are her agricultural, independent of her other resources — so great are her mineral resources and means of manufacturing employment by water power, that no less than 17,000,000 of people could be maintained in that country. I will not enter into that calculation; but this I will say, that I do think, if a good agricultural system was introduced into Ireland; if there was good security for the investment of money in land; if the proprietors themselves would undertake the task of improving the country, and if other classes would co-operate with them—I say I do not think the present population of Ireland is excessive. I am speaking according to the opinion of some who have very well weighed the resources of Ireland; and before I conclude, if the House will so far bear with me, I will venture to allude to countries which apparently were once in as bad a state, as far as the general condition of the population is concerned, as Ireland is now, and which are at present flourishing in possession of order, peace, and security. I think it may be productive
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of good to enter upon this retrospect, because I know that many persons, in contemplating the evils which have afflicted Ireland, especially at the present crisis, have been disposed to yield to despair. I do not despair of Ireland; I say there is no reason, unconnected with laws which happily have ceased to exist—unconnected with unhappy circumstances to which I do not like to advert, but which have been adverted to in the Poor Law Commissioners' Inquiry—I say that, unconnected with these circumstances, there is no reason why Ireland may not at a future day rise to a state of great happiness and prosperity. I will read the description of a country in which these evils were stated to occur by an old English writer:—
"The husbandmen be thrust out of their own, or else, either by covin or fraud, or violent oppression, they be put beside it; or by wrongs and injuries they be so wearied that they be compelled to sell all. By one means, therefore, or by the other, either by hook or by crook, they must needs depart away, poor, wretched souls—men, women, husbands, wives, fatherless children, widows, woful mothers with their young babes, and the whole household, small in substance and much in number; as husbandry requireth many hands; away they trudge, I say, out of their known and accustomed houses, finding no place to rest in. All their household stuff, which is very little worth, though it might well abide the sale—yet, being suddenly thrust out, they be constrained to sell it for a thing of nought; and when they have wandered about till that be spent, what can they then do but steal, and then justly, pardy, be hanged, or else go about a-begging?"

This was a description not unlike that of parts of Ireland, where wretched families, being turned out of their holdings, were driven at once either to the commission of robbery or to go about begging. Yet the description I have read is that given of England by Sir Thomas More—that was an account of England in his day. If any one should suppose this was an effort of the imagination, I can assure him that we have other authentic accounts which corroborate it; one written by a magistrate states, that in every county there were from 200 to 300 persons who lived by thieving; that gangs carried away sheep from the field; that husbandmen had no security against their attacks; and that 70,000 of these marauders were hanged in one reign; that is a description of a country in which we now see so much security prevail, in which there is such an almost total absence of the scenes described as constantly occurring by the writers of that day. This is a proof that the evils referred to had their origin in the state of

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society, and not in the nature of the country. I will now read a description of another country, at a different period, namely, the end of the seventeenth century:—
"There are at this day in Scotland (besides a great number of families very meanly provided for by the church boxes, with others who, with living upon bad food, fall into various diseases), 200,000 people begging from door to door. These are not only no ways advantageous, but a very grievous burden to so poor a country; and though the number of them be perhaps double to what it was formerly, by reason of the present great distress, yet in all times there have been about 100,000 of these vagabonds who have lived without any regard or submission either to the laws of the land, or even those of God and nature, fathers incestuously accompanying their own daughters, the son with the mother, and the brother with the sister. No magistrate could ever discover or be informed which way any of these wretches died, or that ever they were baptized. Many murders have been discovered among them; and they are not only a most unspeakable oppression to poor tenants (who if they give not bread or some sort of provision to perhaps forty such villains in one day, are sure to be insulted by them); but they rob many poor people who live in houses distant from any neighbourhood. In years of plenty, many thousands of them meet together in the mountains, where they feast and riot for many days; and at country weddings, markets, burials, and other the like public occasions, they are to be seen, both men and women, perpetually drunk, cursing, blaspheming, and fighting together."
Such was the description of industrious, sober, civilized, religious Scotland—such was the description of that country at the end of the seventeenth century. Shall we say that particular laws, that a peculiar state of society, have no influence on the condition of a population, when we find England and Scotland represented as being in this state, and afterwards becoming orderly, civilized, and prosperous? I think we should not be acting as becomes the representatives of this country if we despaired of the state of Ireland. I am not one of those who think that, apart from political rights—apart from other questions connected with political institutions, a merely beneficent Government can make a country flourish. It is my opinion that other measures will be required; and when the proper time comes for proposing such measures, I shall be ready to undertake anything which I think will be for the ultimate benefit of Ireland. But this I feel with respect to these and all other measures, that there are some things which the Crown cannot grant, which Parliament cannot enact—these are the spirit of self-reliance and the spirit of co-operation. I
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must say plainly, that I should indeed despair of this task, were it not that I think I see symptoms in the Irish people both of greater reliance on their own energies and own exertions, and greater willingness to co-operate with each other. I believe, if they will encourage this spirit among themselves—I believe, if they will look to what has been done in this country and in its neighbour, Scotland, by industry, by perseverance, by never despairing of success—if they will go on, not looking always to the Government proposing this, and Parliament enacting that, but will see what is the task immediately before them, and set themselves heartily and strenuously to perform that task, that there are means, there are resources, in Ireland, which may bring these matters to a happy issue. There is no doubt of the fertility of the soil: that fertility has been the theme of admiration with writers and travellers of all nations. There is no doubt of the strength and industry of the inhabitants, for the same man who is loitering idly by the mountain side in Tipperary or Kerry, whose potato crop has just furnished him with occupation for a few days, whose wages and whose pig have enabled him to pay his rent and eke out a miserable subsistence, has perhaps a brother in Liverpool, Glasgow, or London, who in the sweat of his brow is, from morning to night, competing with the strongest labourers of England and Scotland, and earning wages equal to any of them. I do not think, therefore, that either the fertility of the land or the strength and industry of the inhabitants are at fault; but there have been faults, there have been defects, and happy will it be for us if we can lay a foundation of the means of curing those defects; happy will it be, indeed, if the Irish themselves take for their maxim, "Help yourselves, and Heaven will help you;" and then I trust they will find there have been some "uses in adversity." The noble Lord concluded, by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to render valid certain proceedings for the relief of distress in Ireland.
SIR H. W. BARRONwished to ask in what manner the local rate for the relief of the poor was to be levied, and who would have the power to levy it?
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, the rate would be levied by the guardians, but the local committee would administer relief, and would have the distribution of such subscriptions as might be received from this

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country, from Ireland, and from the Government.
MR. B. OSBORNEthought the noble Lord had thrown some imputation on a Member of the other House of Parliament; did the noble Lord mean to imply that the Marquess of Sligo and Mr. Moore had evaded the payment of rates at Castlebar?
LORD J. RUSSELLregretted the hon. Member had misapprehended him; what he said was, that the Marquess of Sligo and Mr. Moore called a certain public meeting at Castlebar, which happened to be a place where poor rates had been refused; he did not mean to say that the Marquess of Sligo and Mr. Moore had so defaulted.
MR. SMITH O'BRIENasked what course the Government intended to pursue with regard to advances of money to railways; and whether it were intended to proceed with the Tenants' Compensation Bill this Session?
LORD J. RUSSELLcould not enter into any details with respect to advances to railways; there were objections to making advances generally to those undertakings, but the subject was still under consideration. As to tenant compensation, no Bill would be brought in at present.
VISCOUNT CLEMENTSwished to know if the Government intended to facilitate the employment of labour on the land in Nova Scotia and Canada, or to encourage in any way the outlay of capital in either of those colonies?
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, his noble Friend at the head of the Colonial Department had forwarded a despatch to Canada, stating the willingness of the Government to advance money for the construction of huts and dwellings for the labourers while employed on railways there, if the proprietors or companies wished. But he did not know how the proposition would be received in Canada, and could not give the noble Lord a positive answer.
MR. FRENCHcommenced by stating, that an hon. Friend of his, high in the late Government, had crossed the House previous to the commencement of the debate, to say to him how much the Irish Members in general, and he (Mr. French) in particular, would disapprove of the measures to be brought forward. He had listened with fear and trembling whilst the noble Lord was speaking; but in place of opposing, he rose to express generally his concurrence with the views of Her Majesty's Government. He cordially approved
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of the manner in which it was proposed to carry out the Treasury Minute of the 1st of December, to enable the landlords of Ireland to afford employment to the people, by the improvement of private property—the State advancing them the money to do so on fair and equitable terms. He should not enter into details, but he thought it would be more advisable if this principle was extended to the large drainages, and that in no case should the interference in the execution of works of the Drainage Commissioners be sanctioned. He had, through the assistance of his right hon. Friend the present Chief Baron of Ireland, succeeded in having, in the Drainage Act of last Session, in cases where the proprietors were unanimous, this principle recognised. In the proposed consolidation of these Drainage Acts he concurred: the national importance of reclaiming the waste lands he fully admitted: it would be for consideration, when the measure was before the House, whether the execution of their reclamation should be entrusted to the Government or to the proprietors. To the administration of out-door relief to the aged and infirm, he had no objection to offer—the expediency of extending it to the able-bodied he questioned. The assistance to be given, under proper limits, to emigration and colonization, as auxiliaries to the general improvement of the country, he considered of the utmost importance. He hailed with satisfaction the broad line of demarcation between the temporary measures to meet the present distress, and those permanent ones for the general improvement of the country. The measures most pressing in the present crisis were food for the immediate support of the people, and seed to enable them by the cultivation of the soil to provide against the recurrence of famine in the ensuing year, and were both embraced in the measures of the noble Lord. It appeared to him their difficulties were considerably enhanced by the course adopted in the late Session of Parliament by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth; and the evils under which they were suffering were considerably aggravated by the errors he then committed. His measures, according to his own Treasury Minute, were at variance with all the rules by which the well-being of society was ordinarily regulated. His tampering with the provision trade of the country, which Burke characterized of all things the most dangerous, might have passed without observation,

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had not its mischievous results been tested by the real calamity of the present year. By it he created a feeling among the people of Ireland that it was the duty, and that it was in the power, of a Government to provide them with food. Hence the discontent and dissatisfaction expressed in the suffering districts against Her Majesty's present advisers for not performing impossibilities. It was not in the power of a Government, an able writer said, to provide food for us in our necessities, and it would be vain presumption in statesmen to think they can do it. Hence the state of feeling which led to such results as that of the coroner's jury in Galway, who, on an inquest on the body of a woman who died of starvation, brought in a verdict of wilful murder against Lord J. Russell and Sir Randolph Routh. Again, the right hon. Baronet appeared to him to have committed a serious error in administering out-door relief by eleemosynary employment, sanctioning, by the employment of the Board of Works, the principle of State interference in works of local or private interest, and, by the half-grant system, giving to that interference the mischievous operation which experience in that country had shown was attached to the rate in aid of wages. The right hon. Gentleman raised an insuperable obstacle to a return to the right path; he imposed on his successors an absolute coercion to go astray. How strongly did events show the wisdom of Burke when he told them—
"If the people are fed by the State, though but for one half-year, they will never be satisfied to have it otherwise; having looked to Government for bread, on the very first scarcity they will turn and bite the hand that fed them. To avoid that evil, Government will redouble the causes of it, thus it will become inveterate and incurable."
That the noble Lord at the head of the Government saw the difficulties and was aware of the dangers of the position, was evident from his speeches—from his first Treasury Minute—from his letter to the Duke of Leinster—from his repudiation of all tampering with the provision trade—from his abolition of the half-grant system—from as large a correction of error as could be hoped for, under circumstances of such unusual and complicated difficulty; but the habit of one half-year had been established, and it was not possible to resist its urgency; and in the confusion of a newly-formed Government, and the haste of a concluding Session, the legacy of the right hon. Baronet became law. He wished to guard
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himself in speaking of the Poor Employment Act from being supposed to cast blame indiscriminately on those by whom it had been administered. On the contrary, he was most ready to bear testimony to the great abilities and indefatigable exertions of Colonel Jones and Captain Larcom; but the system was so extremely vicious, that no vestige of it should be permitted to remain. By it the labour of the country had been diverted from the cultivation of the soil, 486,000 men were daily employed on works not alone useless, but in most cases positively mischievous; by it the roads of the country had been uprooted, and its communications seriously interfered with. On the road from Roscommon to Athlone, a distance of fifteen miles, which was usually driven in from an hour and a half to an hour and three quarters, the mail now takes four hours, and lately applied to the Post Office for an additional hour; and the same story may be told in every district, in every parish in Ireland. Walking a few days since near Stillorgan, he came on a road which appeared as if a plough had been run through it. He put the question to a man he met on the road—had the Board of Works been there? and was answered, "No, Sir; it was a flood that destroyed this road." It would require years to get the roads back to their former condition; and it was no exaggeration to call the board by the name they were generally known by in Ireland, "wholesale destroyers of Her Majesty's highways." In coming up to attend the meeting lately held in Dublin of landed proprietors, Lord Farnham was upset in the Enniskillen mail, the Lord Lieutenant of Sligo in the Ballina, and scarcely a person there had not some complaint to make. The second evil of the system was the enormous waste of capital—180,000 l. a week on works not alone unproductive, but which, from their nature, could not give any profitable return—"corn would not grow upon roads"—and this, in a country, where all the intelligent agriculturists united in declaring, that by a proper expenditure in drainage, the produce would be increased from 25 to 100 fold. The third evil of the system was the demoralization of the peasantry; the destruction of all reliance on their own exertions—teaching them to trust to outdoor relief; and perpetuating that adscription to the soil which had hitherto been the bane of Ireland, encouraging amongst them habits of sloth and idleness, at a

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time when no exertion should be spared to rouse their industrial energies. The fourth evil of the system was the disruption of the social ties, by the intervention of the board and their innumerable staff between landlord and tenant, employer and employed, making idlers of one class, and cyphers of the other. He heard with great pleasure the opinion given by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, of the necessity for an immediate and complete abandonment of this system; for a discharge of the 11,000 engineers and clerks, and the return of employment to its legitimate channel. In Ireland the outcry became so great from landlords who, under this system and its abuses, perceived their properties melting away—from tenant-farmers whose lands remained uncultivated from the impossibility of procuring labourers, who preferred idling under the Board of Works to labouring for them, that the Lord Lieutenant was forced to issue that document, usually called Mr. Labouchere's letter, and for which his right hon. Friend had been threatened with impeachment by the hon. Member for Limerick. The noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government had not correctly stated the nature of this document, nor the reasons why, though framed with the best intentions, it was utterly valueless. In order to encourage the substitution of reproductive for unproductive work, it enabled the baronies to be divided into the electoral divisions of which, under the poor law, they consisted, and presentments to be made for those drainage or other private works, provided, which the noble Lord omitted, the proprietors undertook the repayment of the money so presented. Now, as drainages, owing to the expensive staff of the Board of Works, would cost, if undertaken under this letter, double the amount they could be executed for under the control of the proprietor; and if the entire sum presented was not undertaken, the residue was to be levied for public works, for the cost of which the undertaking proprietor was to be taxed equally with the others; the landlords of Ireland very prudently declined to avail themselves of its provisions, not choosing to subject themselves to a treble taxation. The Treasury Minute of the 1st of December then made its appearance; the first step taken in the right way, and one of the most important documents in its consequences it would prove Ireland had ever seen, supported as it was to be by the different
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measures announced that evening. He should not, as he stated, go into details on those measures, nor even at that stage announce the portions of them he was not disposed to support. No captious objections should, however, be offered by him to any of them, nor should he offer any objection when he was not prepared to suggest an improvement. He fully agreed with the noble Lord, there was no cause to despair of Ireland, lamentable as was her condition. After her sufferings were passed, he trusted a better order of things would arise. It appeared to be a law of nature, that the amelioration or final settlement of a system, was usually preceded by a movement more or less violent and extraordinary in its character—an oppressive and pestilent atmosphere was purified by a thunder-storm. In the human body, worn out by excess or fatigue, perfect restoration to health frequently followed the crisis of a fever—in the body politic, a settled and well-balanced constitution had seldom, perhaps never, been arrived at by any nation, without being preceded by the violence and peril of a revolution; but the converse of the proposition was far from holding good. Whenever, indeed, the operation was free from the intermeddling of man, the cause and the consequence were certain. After a storm always came a calm; but a fever unskilfully treated, ended in death; and a revolution unguided by the hand of a statesman, or attempted by a people unfit for freedom, led not to a constitutional settlement, but to an abyss of anarchy or despotism more profound than that from which it emanated. Ireland, hitherto the opprobrium and difficulty of British statesmen, had now to be dealt with, and it was but just to say, that he believed all parties in that House were disposed to act fairly and liberally. They had an opportunity, which if lost, would never return. The inscrutable decrees of Providence had done that which neither kings nor parliaments could accomplish—gave them a fair and open field to work out the regeneration of Ireland; and as they availed themselves of it, so would the results of the present crisis be regarded as a blessing, or as a grievous ending curse.
MR. BELLEWhad heard the statement of the intentions of the Government with great satisfaction. He considered, as the most advantageous of the measures to be applied to Ireland, the making the property of Ireland responsible for the poverty of Ireland. England and Scotland

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had already felt the benefit of an enlarged poor law; and Ireland, when such a law was extended to her, would no longer be in the position of a burden upon the Imperial State. Under the present system, when the maintenance of the poor was not derived from the land, society had been in an unnatural and in a diseased state; and he hoped that the policy now announced by the noble Lord would prove to be at least the foundation of a better state of things. The Government would now wisely make the Irish landlords feel that the existence of a wretched and pauperized population must not be a matter of indifference to them, and that the owner of land in that country must be compelled to discharge the duties annexed to such a position elsewhere. When they found that in Ireland the land paid only 6d., and that in England, proportionately, it paid 2s. for the support of the poor, they might without difficulty account for the difference to be discovered in the irrelative conditions, and draw the conclusion, that if the welfare of the sister kingdom was to be the object of their legislation, they must very speedily effect an alteration. He was far from thinking, as had elsewhere been asserted, that the landlords of Ireland, in this time of distress, had done their duty; he totally denied the fact; they had, as a class, neglected their duty, and their excuse invariably had been that they were too embarrassed in their circumstances to afford that relief to the people which the people had a right to expect from them, Why then, he said, that if a landlord was so situated as to be incapable of executing his trust and stewardship, he should cease to be the responsible owner of the land; he should be relieved from the duties he neglected. If a merchant, a banker, or a shopkeeper became insolvent, his estate was sold; and why should not the same be the case of the holder of land? If an Irish landlord did not properly discharge his duties to his tenants, it was hitherto considered to be a sufficient plea if it could be said of him, "Oh, he is a very poor man, he has not got the money to do so." He approved of what the noble Lord proposed to do as regarded the proper employment of the people. The landlords would now be enabled, as they had not hitherto been, to give employment which should be a benefit to both parties, both to the employers and to the employed. He was happy to say that one of the measures of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, viz.,
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the Drainage Act of last Session, was producing excellent effects throughout Ireland; but he at the same time hoped that the noble Lord now at the head of the Government would carry out his intention of amending the Drainage Act. He (Mr. Bellew) thought that it was desirable that when an officer of the Board of Works inspected a district, and was of opinion that certain public works should be commenced, notice should be given to the landowners of the district to hold a sessions to consider the desirableness of such works; and in case of their approval, he was of opinion that the officer should be authorized to commence the works, whether the landowners agreed to the necessary rates or not. He was also of opinion that the money which had been already expended in public works, would tend to conciliate the affections of the people of Ireland, by inducing them to believe that the Government were anxious to promote their welfare. At the same time the Irish landlords must be given to understand distinctly, that they would in future be compelled to discharge, equally with the English and Scotch landlords, all the responsibilities which attached to their estates.
MR. LEFROYwished to know whether the Government proposed to take any measure which should ensure an early and large supply of food in Ireland? He did not doubt that an excellent selection had been made in the person of Sir J. Burgoyne, to carry into execution the Ministerial plans; but he doubted if the efficacy of what was proposed to be done would not be lessened, should not steps be taken to convey into the country a sufficiency of food. He wished also to ask, in what way would the 50,000 l. to be advanced for the providing seeds to tenants be made available?
LORD J. RUSSELL: With regard to the first question, if the hon. Gentleman means to inquire, does the Government intend to import food from other countries into Ireland? I beg to inform him that it is not the intention of the Government. Having, by the measures which we have introduced, taken steps to facilitate in every way an unchecked importation of food, we think it far better to leave the supplying of the people to private enterprise and to the ordinary trade. The second question involves points of detail, and I would prefer deferring, for the present, an answer to it.
The EARL of LINCOLN, concurring in what seemed to be the general opinion of the

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House, that it was advisable to postpone any lengthened discussion of the subject under consideration to a future day, rose simply to ask the noble Lord two questions connected with the question of the relief of distress in Ireland. First, as regarded the advance proposed to be made to landlords, for the purpose of enabling them to undertake the improvement of their properties, he desired to know if the intention of the noble Lord was to extend the operation of the Million Act of last year? In that Act, 2,000,000 l. were apportioned to England and Scotland, and 1,000,000 l. to Ireland; and he now sought from the noble Lord if he purposed naming any limit on the advance to be made to the landowner; or if, from time to time, such sums as might be required would be advanced without any limitation? The second question he wished to put had no immediate reference to what had fallen from the noble Lord; but the subject was of the utmost importance, and the intelligence received within the last few days from Ireland made it most desirable that the intentions of the Government should be fully known. He alluded to the information recently obtained, that there was an alarming increase and spread of fever in many parts of Ireland. It would be remembered that the late Government, at the early part of the last Session, were so impressed with the consequences which might follow upon an extension of sickness and fever among the distressed population—fever being invariably the consequence of the absence of food among a people—that they had passed a Bill called the Fever Act, which would expire in September next. Under that Act power had been given to the Lord Lieutenant to constitute a central board of health, and Sir Philip Frampton and Dr. Corregan had been appointed; but the present Government, under the impression that the board was unnecessary, had abolished it. He (the Earl of Lincoln) now desired to know if the Government, with a view to affording the requisite relief to the fever patients in those parts of Ireland where sickness was most prevalent, did not think great good would result if they reconstituted that board of health, either in the former or in some other shape? He also wished before sitting down to be informed, from the noble Lord, when the Bill would be proceeded with, preliminary to a further discussion, and when the House might expect to have laid on the Table those papers referred to on a previous evening by the Chancellor of
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the Exchequer, and again that night by the noble Lord? The House was in possession of the letter of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, and of the Treasury Minute of December last; but he (the Earl of Lincoln) understood that the Government was in possession of an immense mass of information which threw great light upon the existing condition of Ireland, and which on that account the House would desire to be fully acquainted with.
LORD J. RUSSELL: With respect to the first question, we propose now to separate the Act for facilitating the advance of money to landed proprietors; instead of having one Drainage Act, giving 2,000,000 l. to Great Britain, and 1,000,000 l. to Ireland, we propose to pass two separate Acts—one for Great Britain, somewhat enlarging the powers granted before, and another Act for Ireland, which I shall shortly move for leave to bring in; and though the sum to be advanced by that Act is to be limited to 1,000,000 l., yet I apprehend there will be no hesitation on the part of the Government [as we understood] to aid the owners of land in such undertakings as may conduce to useful ends. As to the Fever Act, I believe there was some practical difficulty in carrying it into operation. With respect to the third question which the noble Lord has asked, I do not know if I may precisely fix the day. The papers will be presented on Wednesday, and I think I can name Monday for the discussion of two of these Bills.
MR. LABOUCHEREwould state the reason which had induced the Government to abolish the board appointed under the Fever Act, referred to by the noble Lord, and the unwillingness which was now felt to reconstitute that board. The noble Lord was aware that under the ordinary provisions of the poor law, fever hospitals, with the consent of the guardians, might be attached to workhouses, and that by an Act called the Contagious Diseases Act, every precaution was empowered to be taken in workhouses and elsewhere to provide against the spread of fever, and for the comfort and cure of fever patients. These Acts had rendered unnecessary the central board of health; and it had been found, in numerous instances and by multitudinous complaints forwarded from every part of the country, that this board was the occasion of so many abuses, at a useless expenditure of so much money, that it would have been inconsistent with the real prevention of disease to continue any longer

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that board in the exercise of its needless functions. It had been thought better to depend upon the ordinary law; so far there was no cause to call for additional powers; and he could assure the noble Lord, that the attention of the Government was anxiously directed to the subject. He would add, that though in some cases fever had accompanied a want of food, yet that Ireland was at this moment free from any fever arising from such circumstances. The accounts given to the contrary were, to a very great extent, undoubtedly inaccurate. Dysentery had been found to exist in various districts to a deplorable degree; but with this exception there was no fever or disease in the country so wide-spread and so alarming in its results as to ensue in loss of life.
SIR R. H. INGLIShad only to remember the short speeches of several Irish Members, and to look to the deserted state of the benches, to be convinced that it was the determination to adjourn the discussion; but he should be especially unworthy of a seat in that House did he allow such a speech as that delivered that night by the noble Lord to pass without the expression at least of his cordial approbation. It was a speech as remarkable for what had been stated as for what had been omitted; for, even with all the experience of the noble Lord in the art of driving, he had felt it necessary, it might be supposed, in dealing with Ireland as a subject, to take example by the fate of his predecessors, and to avoid those difficulties and obstructions over which they had attempted to drive their state waggons, and by which those waggons had been nearly, if not entirely, overturned. The noble Lord had, however, been sustained by his own sense of duty; he had conciliated, as he believed, the confidence of both sides of the House, and had succeeded in evading any apparent opposition from any quarter. Upon one point in the noble Lord's speech, he must, however, be permitted to express some doubt, and to question if this might not be reconsidered with advantage. The noble Lord sought to introduce a new system of land tenure into Ireland. The calculation was, that there were no less than 4,500,000 acres in Ireland remaining to be reclaimed; and these acres the noble lord proposed to divide into sections so inconsiderable, that, in the most purely politico-economical view, he was preparing to establish a pauperized population, and day by day to deteriorate agriculture. These
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sections were to consist of not more than twenty or fifty acres; and if this scheme were persevered in, he warned his noble Friend that he would raise up in Ireland that which had proved to be such a curse elsewhere—a population unprepared even to cultivate the soil. There would neither be capital nor science; agriculture would be neglected; and surely there was nothing in this result which could engage the approval of the noble Lord. They had only to glance at France, where this system prevailed so extensively, and where in consequence a gradual deterioration was taking place, to learn how many evils there were involved in and attendant on the measure suggested by the noble Lord. And when they were introducing a new system for the maintenance of the poor in Ireland, he would ask if it were not worthy of their consideration if they would not tax something more and something else than land?
MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, that concurring with hon. Members who thought it was better not to discuss the measures of the noble Lord, which were numerous and extensive, till there was time for considering them attentively, he only rose for the purpose of asking two questions explanatory of the statement of the noble Lord. The first was this: He understood from the noble Lord that pending the passing of the Act for constituting relief committees, and authorizing them to give food, it was the intention of Government to take means for doing so? He hoped he was right in thus understanding the noble Lord, and that this relief in food would be given with the greatest promptitude. And the second question he had to ask was this: It was admitted on all hands that the tillage of the country was neglected, and that from this neglect there was serious apprehension of a scarcity next year. Now, although the poor people were blamed for neglecting the cultivation of the land, he believed that they could not help doing so. The small farmer of five acres, who depended entirely on the potato for his support, and had now lost it, was obliged of necessity to go to the public works, in order to earn money wages for his subsistence. The noble Lord had announced his intention of lending money to proprietors to improve their estates. He (Mr. Hamilton) believed there was no way in which a proprietor having small tenants of five or ten acres could apply the money more usefully for himself and for his tenantry, than by employing

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those poor people in tilling their lands. He wished, therefore, to ask whether the loans under the Treasury Minute would be applicable to this purpose?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: With regard to the temporary relief in anticipation of the operation of the permanent legislation to be provided by the Government, the relief and local committee would administer funds derived from rates imposed by the board of guardians, the money subscribed by private benevolence, and also the funds advanced by Government. As to the application of the money advanced by Government to the cultivation of private estates, as suggested by the hon. Member, it was not proposed that proprietors should be enabled to borrow money from the State to carry on the ordinary cultivation of their land. The Million Act would enable them to borrow money which would be applicable to drainage purposes.
VISCOUNT BERNARDinquired whether it was the intention of Government to bring in a Bill to enlarge the provisions of the Fisheries Act for Ireland, and whether it was the intention of Government to take any steps in consequence of the survey they had been making of Cork harbour. This last question he had been requested to ask by a large and most important meeting of the city of Cork.
MR. GRATTANcould not sufficiently press upon the House the importance of immediate and energetic relief being extended to Ireland, which was, in some parts of it, enduring such appalling sufferings, that the dogs were tearing to pieces dead carcases in the fields, and the rats devouring them in the houses. And, while scenes like these were occurring in Ireland, what was the fact as regarded the supply of corn sent into that country? It appeared, from papers which had been laid on the Table of the House, that Great Britain had imported from foreign countries no less than 3,700,000 quarters of grain up to December last; that she had imported from Ireland 1,776,000 quarters of grain; and that, at the time when the Irish were dying of starvation, the English had imported into Ireland only 47,000 quarters of grain. And this occurred at a time when the country had a surplus of income over expenditure of 2,800,000 l. The price of oatmeal in Ireland was 4s. 2d. a stone, while the wages of those who had employment did not exceed 8d. and 9d. a day.
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He did not mean to say that the people of Ireland had been sold to the merchants of London and Liverpool; but honest, fair dealing had not been shown towards them. If Government had sent a few thousand quarters of meal to the south parts of Ireland, great relief would thereby have been afforded to the people. In many places, even where the people were paid their wages, they had no depôt for provisions to which they could resort. The noble Lord in his speech went further than the proposal of remedial measures for the present,—he proposed permanent measures for the relief of Ireland. But, if the noble Lord meant to tax the landlords of Ireland, let him mete out a fair measure of justice to all, and let him tax the men who had abandoned their country. The noble Lord talked of properties and rights; but he held that if a man ran away from his property, and left people to starve, he ought to be compelled to contribute largely towards their support. He wished to know why such men as Earl Fitzwilliam, the Marquess of Headfort, and others, possessing large property in Ireland, some of them to the extent of 50,000 l. a year, without residing in the country, should not be heavily taxed for the support of the poor of Ireland? In the time of one of the Stuarts, who were the very worst enemies of Ireland, a clause was introduced into all title-deeds to the effect, that if the owner did not reside in Ireland for six months in the year, he forfeited all his property. He hoped that, in establishing a permanent measure for Ireland, the noble Lord would not be afraid, but would act upon the broad principle of equal justice to all, and that a measure which would promote the happiness and prosperity of all classes of the people would be brought forward, and, in beneficial operation, before a war between this and any other country should arise. In the meantime, however, it was their first duty to save the people from the miseries of famine and starvation.
SIR W. VERNERwished to address a few words to the House on this important subject. He stood there, in every sense of the word, an independent Member, and was ready to give his vote upon every question solely with a regard to its own merits, and without the slightest consideration as to how it might affect the interests of any party. He was open to one bribe only—whoever did best for Ireland would win his gratitude — personally and

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politically. He sincerely hoped that whoever undertook the great task of saving Ireland would judge of the people of Ireland gently, whether landlords or tenants, and would not be led away by false representations in the reports of those who unjustly maligned them. He would just advert to one circumstance that had not been noticed in the course of the evening. In his opinion, the exertions on the part of the constituted authorities in Ireland had been greatly marred by the sanction and encouragement given to the people to supply themselves with arms. He could not be persuaded that this was purely an accidental thing; it was so extraordinary that a nation in a state of starvation should call for an importation of arms to such an extent that the manufacturers were unable to supply them. He had a letter from a person of great respectability in the county which he had the honour to represent (Armagh), which had been highly commended that evening by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), in which it was stated, that in one part of that county 1,000 stand of arms had been sold since the month of November last; and he added that in that same district not one shilling of rent had been paid. Another fact which he would lay before the House related to a tenant who had 2l. of rent returned to him by the agent upon the estate on which his farm was situated. The tenant, on leaving the office of the agent, was heard to say that the 2l. would buy him a fine gun; and, in point of fact, he believed that this man did lay out the money for the purchase of a blunderbuss, instead of appropriating it, as it was intended he should do, to the wants of his family. He was aware that it was alleged to be impossible to prevent private traders from disposing of arms; but he would suggest to the noble Lord that this was a subject which deserved the serious attention of the Government. He read in the newspapers, a few days ago, that between the 6th and 9th of the present month, 315 loads of oatmeal were imported into Liverpool from Ireland; and he thought it was a strong proof of the patient and pacific disposition of the Irish people, that they allowed flour and meal to be sent out of the country without making some effort to detain it. Before leaving home, he authorized his steward to purchase a stock of meal and flour, and he had to-day received a letter, in which his steward informed him that he could only get half a ton of each, and that the price which, when he
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left home, was 16 s., was now 23 s. He hoped that nothing would be left undone by Her Majesty's Government and by the House to relieve the frightful distress which now existed in Ireland.
MR. TUITEwished to make one observation with reference to a statement which had been made reflecting upon the landlords of Ireland. The noble Lord had stated that instances had occurred of farmers holding twenty, forty, or even sixty acres of land, being employed on the public works; and he also stated that the sons of such persons were in some cases receiving the relief money which was intended for the distressed poor. Now, he (Mr. Tuite) had attended very closely to the working of the relief committees in that part of Ireland in which he resided, and he was perfectly satisfied that such a circumstance as that alluded to by the noble Lord could not have taken place without the sanction of the relief committee of the district. He thought it was due to those relief committees who had done their duty, that persons who would sanction so gross a misappropriation of charitable funds as had been mentioned by the noble Lord, should be exposed; and that the names of the committees by whom such disgraceful proceedings were tolerated, should be printed and published. The circumstance referred to by the noble Lord could not have occurred unless the persons relieved had been approved of by the relief committees, and returned to the relief officers appointed by the Government as proper persons for employment on public works. He was strongly inclined to think that such an occurrence could only have taken place in a district which was suffering from the great curse of Ireland—absenteeism. It had been stated that public officers had been attacked and impeded in the discharge of their duties by mobs of the refractory poor who had not received payment for their work. Now he was aware that it was quite impossible for the Board of Works to attend to the immense business they had to transact with perfect regularity; but he must say, in defence of the people of Ireland, that, to his own knowledge, instances had occurred where delays of eight or ten days had taken place in the payment of the poor after their work had been performed; and when they considered that these persons were depending upon their daily hire for the purchase of food to save themselves and their families from starvation, he did not

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think it surprising that in some few instances a spirit of dissatisfaction and insubordination should have been manifested. He regretted that the further consideration of the measures proposed by Her Majesty's Government should have been deferred until Monday; for he thought that under the circumstances they deserved and ought to receive the immediate attention of the Legislature. He must express his wish that some day this week could be named for continuing the debate.
MR. HUMEsaid, that with some exceptions the statement of the noble Lord had given great satisfaction. There were one or two points, however, on which he wished to throw out a few hints for the noble Lord's consideration. The noble Lord had, with great candour, stated the evils which had arisen from the interference of the Government agents in their attempts to employ the people; and he (Mr. Hume) thought sufficient had been said to justify the opinion that this system had done as much harm as good. That opinion was entertained by many persons, and he thought the noble Lord ought to be prepared to dispense with the system as speedily as possible. The noble Lord had stated that he would be prepared, on the part of the Government, to take charge of unreclaimed land. He (Mr. Hume) considered that any attempt by the Government to take up waste lands, with a view to their improvement, was one of the wildest schemes imaginable. He would candidly tell the noble Lord, that if he would bring forward immediately two of the measures which he proposed to render subsidiary measures, namely, plans to simplify the titles to property and to facilitate the sale of land, and to compel proprietors to maintain the poor on their estates, he would confer a far greater benefit upon the Irish people than by endeavouring to reclaim waste lands. The fact was, that wherever there was land worth cultivating, capital enough might without difficulty be found for its cultivation. Government never meddled with pecuniary matters in Ireland without losing a great deal of money; and the misfortune was not confined to this loss of money, for their interference prevented private individuals from embarking in schemes for the advantage of the country. He had to-day seen two gentlemen, land agents, from Ireland, who assured him that any amount of land might be sold in Ireland, provided the titles could be made out easily without expense. It
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was notorious that the present registry of land in Ireland was greatly in need of improvement, and he wished to see it placed on as efficient a footing as the registry of land in Scotland. He begged to suggest to the noble Lord the importance of reconsidering this question. The noble Lord must be aware that the money markets, both in England and on the Continent, were not in a condition to be trifled with; and if the Government had to procure 7,000,000, 8,000,000, or 9,000,000 of money for the improvement of land, they would be obliged to go into the money market to obtain it—a step which he would greatly regret to see them taking at the present time. He had been gratified to hear the observation of the hon. Member for Oxford (Sir R. Inglis), that there was a prospect now of the landlords of Ireland looking to the interests of people living on their estates, and that the land of Ireland would be made to maintain the poor residing upon it. The people of this country were now called upon to support the poor of Ireland, but they surely would not be called upon to support the gentry of Ireland. If the landed proprietors in Ireland had more property than they wanted, and had incurred debts they were unable to meet, let them act as any private individual would do—sell their property and discharge those debts. He had been informed that there was one individual in Ireland possessed of a surface of 300,000 acres, who did not derive from it an income of 1,000 l. a year, and who would not sell one acre. Now he would call on such individuals to sell their property and discharge their incumbrances; and if this were done, he would not despair of regenerating Ireland. He hoped the noble Lord would persevere in the course he had now taken; for by acting with confidence upon sound principles, he might confer the most important benefits upon Ireland.
MR. STAFFORD O'BRIENwished to put a question to the noble Lord on a point of extreme importance to Ireland, with reference to the contemporaneous jurisdiction of the relief committees and the boards of guardians. He wished to know whether it were the intention of the Government that these relief committees should cease to exist when the extended poor law came into operation, or whether it were intended that they should continue at the same time with the boards of guardians? And, if they did mean the relief committees to continue, what were to be the separate

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jurisdictions of those committees and the boards of guardians? He was connected with both those bodies in the county of Clare; he was a member of the board of guardians, and chairman of one of the relief committees. The duties those two bodies had to discharge were not precisely similar; but the duties of the officer of a relief committee were more nearly analogous to those of relieving officers than of members of a board of guardians in England. Having heard several charges made against Her Majesty's Government of apparent neglect and indifference to the sufferings of the Irish people, he could not sit down without expressing the very strong feeling he entertained, that however they might blame a Government for introducing a particular measure, yet when that measure had been passed with the tacit or expressed assent of the House, the Legislature were bound to share with the Government the responsibility of such a measure. He thought, therefore, that the charges brought against the Government for passing the Labour-rate Bill were very unfair, inasmuch as it had now become an Act of the Legislature; and he was quite willing, not as an Irish Member, but as one who had property in Ireland, to take his share of the blame of absenting himself from Parliament when that measure was adopted. He thought it would be very unfair in him—after having left town, and so in some measure abandoned his duty at the time the Bill was before Parliament—if he were now to turn round upon the Government and charge them with the whole culpability and responsibility of the measure. The noble Lord had wisely acquiesced in the suggestion to postpone the consideration of the measures which he had to-night submitted to the House; and he (Mr. A. S. O'Brien) would not enter into any discussion on the subject now. He desired, however, to record his firm conviction that what the noble Lord had said of the owners of land in Ireland was true in all its parts, and to all its extent; and as one of those landed proprietors, he (Mr. A. S. O'Brien) desired to recognise that they could no more be free from the penal consequences of the errors of those who had gone before them, than they could be wholly free from the legal engagements which were left binding upon them by their predecessors. He begged to proclaim his strong conviction that the utmost efforts of the Legislature, however wise and benevolent, must fail and be entirely
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frustrated, unless those who held land in Ireland were prepared to second and co-operate in those efforts with self-denial, energy, and exertion, which were not to be confined within common bounds, or stinted within the limits of ordinary duration. He must, in justice to the landlords of Ireland, remind the noble Lord that if he found, after the consolidation of the Drainage Acts, after the inducement he (Lord J. Russell) had held out to landlords, especially in Munster, to advance capital for improving their estates, that they were backward in requiring these advances, and feared to enter into these liabilities, it was because they must recognise the existence of an agrarian law in that province, which placed the landlords of Ireland (whether by their own fault or by that of their predecessors) in circumstances of extraordinary difficulty. All those who had anything to do with the tenure of land in Ireland, and the management of landed property there, must be well aware, that to come to a tenant and ask him to submit to an advance of rent for improvements in the property, was a very difficult question to put, and one likely to meet with only one answer. Though the extended poor law for Ireland might super-induce a recognition of just rights, and other measures might excite zeal for the promotion of agriculture, still they must be prepared to find a slow operation of those measures; and they must not too hastily judge the landlords of that part of Ireland with which he was more immediately connected, if they found a difficulty at first in obtaining those guarantees from their tenants which would alone justify their appealing for loans to the Government. The hon. Member for the county of Armagh (Sir H. Verner) had referred to the quantity of oatmeal which had been exported from Ireland to this country. Now, although his sentiments on the subject of protection were unchanged, yet he felt it was of the utmost importance that the trade should be perfectly, totally, and completely free between the counties of England, the towns of England, and the islands of this country, subjects, as they were, of one common Sovereign, and bound by one common law. He might mention, in connexion with this, a circumstance which had occurred within his own experience. The district in which he spent the latter part of the summer, and the early part of the autumn, was divided into two parts—one district was the rich alluvial soil of the

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river Shannon, and the other was the mountainous district which rose from those plains, and formed a great part of the county of Clare. He found the poor people in those districts where wheat would not grow entirely dependent upon oats; but it was well known that in that part of Ireland the yield of oats for oatmeal was uncommonly short this year, so that the poor people could not grind the oats they grew. The consequence was, that these poor people wished to take their oats to Limerick to sell them at the market there, and with the money obtained for them to purchase wheat exported from England for the support of themselves and their families. Now if a system restricting the importation of oats from Ireland into England had been established by the Government, the consequence would have been that these poor people would not have had sufficient subsistence for themselves and their families. The price of oats was at the time very good, and the interchange of commodities was mutually advantageous to both parties. He had felt it his duty to say thus much, and to express his entire concurrence in the general views laid down by the noble Lord, and in the necessity of what was now generally recognised, that the property of Ireland should support the poor of Ireland. The repeated calamities and misfortunes of Ireland proved that it was to the landlords of Ireland, and to every class of the people in Ireland, that that country could look for its social and political regeneration.
MR. ROEBUCKunderstood that it was the wish of the House that Members should not then enter into a discussion of the plan proposed by the noble Lord; he could not help, however, expressing — though not stating his entire concurrence in the views which the noble Lord had taken—if the noble Lord would permit so humble a person as he was to do so, his approbation of the tone and the manner in which the noble Lord's statement had been made, and the feeling that characterized the whole of his speech. He was anxious to express his unbounded admiration for the kindness and consideration which that speech manifested for the people of Ireland, and for that manliness which he thought ought to characterize every statesman who governed this empire, He gave his humble praise to the noble Lord; but he could not permit the world at large to think that the noble Lord would find it easy to carry out all parts of his elaborate scheme. The noble Lord had divided his
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scheme into three separate parts. One was for the immediate relief or alleviation of the great calamity which had fallen upon Ireland. That was a part which for the present he would not touch. The next portion of the plan had reference to the regeneration of the people of Ireland—to create such a desire and feeling among them, to place them in such a position as that they should not be subject to such calamities as the present, and which they had all seen to occur more than once. In the ends which the noble Lord had in view he concurred, as he believed they all concurred; but then he could not connect those ends with the theory which the noble Lord propounded to carry them into effect. It appeared to him that any scheme by which money was to be taken from the people of England for the purpose of fostering the condition of the Irish landlords, and of aiding them in the management of their estates, was a mischievous error. He had never seen money advanced for Ireland, however proposed to be advanced, that it was not given instead of being lent. ["No, no!"] Yes, he had seen many times money agreed to as loans; but he had not heard of its ever being repaid. He had seen loan advanced after loan—he had not seen any of them repaid. He recollected certain moneys being advanced under the name of "The Million Fund." He had not yet heard that it had been returned. Why, a grant was about to be made. Half only of the money proposed to be lent was to be got back. That was a part of their proceedings which he desired to guard himself from sanctioning on the present occasion. He agreed as to the necessity of their having a poor law in Ireland—an English poor law in Ireland. The noble Lord's plan was somewhat elaborated. Still he was not disposed to find fault, seeing what had been done—that, at last, the blow had been struck—that the land of Ireland was bound to maintain the poor of Ireland. Though there were parts of the noble Lord's plan to which he had great objection, still the scheme was one which, as a whole, he would be ashamed to oppose. Four-and twenty hours would not, however, pass away until objections were made to it; and he hoped, as they arose, that the noble Lord would exhibit that gallant bearing which he had already evinced; and if he did so, he might rely upon it that the people would support him, and he would find himself sustained in his effort to have the poor maintained. He did not think

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that the noble Lord would be able to mitigate the harshness of the remedy which he was applying to the Irish landlords; for, let the noble Lord do what he might, there would still be bitterness in the draught. ["No, no!"] He was unwilling to trespass on the attention of the House. He would not go further than to say that he believed that any attempt to make the measure agreeable to the Irish landlords, by taxing the people of England, might make it agreeable to the Irish landlords; but it would add to the noble Lord's difficulties, by raising objections in this country to the proposition of a good measure; that creating that difficulty in England would not lessen the opposition he would be sure to meet with from the landlords of Ireland. He begged the noble Lord would recollect that there was a large population—a considerable weight of public opinion—which must be considered by him, even when legislating for the landlords of Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, before answering the question of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Stafford O'Brien), he begged to express the pleasure with which he heard his speech. There was a tone and temper in that speech which commanded his full approbation. It was not the intention either of the noble Lord or of any Member of the Government to cast censure upon the Irish landlords. He could assure the House that the Government knew enough of Ireland to know that these landlords had many difficulties to encounter, and that if they had not hitherto done so much as Gentlemen on this side the water thought they might be able to accomplish, it was not altogether their fault. The hon. Gentleman had asked what were to be the distinct functions between the relief committees and the boards of guardians? In answer to that he would say, that it was not intended by these Bills in any way to affect or alter the functions of the boards of guardians. They would remain in each union; and they would have the power to levy the rates and to superintend the administration of the poor laws as at present. But it was also intended to form in each electoral district of the union a relief committee sanctioned by law. The guardians would be ex officio members of those committees, as well as the magistrates of the districts. The rates would then be levied by the board of guardians, and the rates required in each electoral district would be advanced from the funds of the union to
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each district. He wished further to say, in reference to what had fallen from a noble Lord opposite, that no fewer than twenty-six depôts for food had been established in the south and west of Ireland: and most of them had been in operation for the last four weeks. The one in Skibbereen, in particular, had been open the whole time during which the transactions the noble Lord alluded to had taken place. He had lately received a letter from a commissary on the spot, stating that not only were there considerable sales of food from private sources, but that the depôt established by the Government there had been the means of feeding 3,000 persons. With reference to what an hon. Gentleman behind him had said of the delay experienced in bringing in these Bills—as if relief were stopped till the measures were passed—he would state that the very reverse of this was the case; because all the time measures were in progress for the establishment of soup-kitchens, as well as for selling food at a cheap price; and by reports recently received from the counties of Cork, Clare, and Leitrim, it appeared that these depôts were becoming exceedingly popular, and, by the assistance of the Government, were now generally extending throughout the distressed districts. It was, therefore, not true that relief was stopped. He might add, that a steamer had been sent round the coast with a supply of boilers to facilitate the making of soup; and he would only state further, that since the announcement of the Government measures, the price of corn had already fallen in Dublin; and there could be no doubt that when the ports were opened all the corn now in bond—500,000 quarters—would be brought to market.
LORD JOHN RUSSELL: Perhaps I should say, in answer to the noble Lord (Viscount Clements), that the course I propose is to ask leave to bring in the Bills I have mentioned; and the Bill which renders valid the proceedings under Mr. Labouchere's letter will be immediately printed. I think it better not to ask the House for its opinion on that Bill until it is printed, and then I shall ask for the second reading. It will be printed by Wednesday; and if hon. Members wish for a general discussion, it can be taken on Monday. The other Bill will be hardly prepared in time to be in the hands of hon. Members before Thursday; and we shall be better prepared to enter into the discussion after seeing the Bill. Besides, there are very voluminous papers

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to be presented to the House either to-morrow or Wednesday. This is to be said likewise with respect to any immediate measures which have been pressed upon us, that the system of relief on public works is to be altered by another system we propose to establish, by committees of relief in electoral districts. That is a process which will take some time, and it will be carried out by the Government before the Bill has been passed through Parliament.
LORD G. BENTINCK: I concur, most willingly, in the praises that have been bestowed both on the tone and temper, and the beautiful language, that characterized the speech which my noble Friend has addressed to this House. With respect, however, to the measures themselves, which he has proposed, I do not intend to enter at any length into them. I certainly am not disposed to do so, unless it be to refer to the compulsory power of which my noble Friend spoke, as to the sale of waste lands in Ireland. But if I were to find fault now with those measures, it is, that, in my mind, they fall short of the necessity which the occasion demands. When the noble Lord spoke of 50,000 l., for supplying the want of seed in Ireland, I cannot but remark, that it is scarcely sufficient to sow five baronies in Ireland; about as much as would sow 25,000 acres of oats, or what might sow about 5,000 acres of potatoes. I am afraid, in the present state of matters in Ireland, that a grant of 50,000 l. will be about like doing nothing at all. As to public works, I had hoped that my noble Friend would have brought forward measures by which the employment of English capital might be stimulated in Ireland. There is, for instance, one safe manner of employing capital, which must occur to every one — I mean the construction of railways. I had hoped that my noble Friend would have come forward with a well-digested scheme for establishing railways. I know of no other means by which, at so short a notice, so many persons might be brought into profitable employment; and I beg leave now to state, that it is with regard to the promotion of railways in Ireland that I am prepared to introduce a measure—one to which my noble Friend will give, I hope, that same careful consideration—the same calm consideration, which this House will be willing to give to all the measures of my noble Friend. I do not propose to introduce this measure in hostility with, or even as rivalling, those
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of my noble Friend; but I propose it only as an auxiliary to the measures of Her Majesty's Ministers, especially as it does not clash with those of which the noble Lord has given notice. The hon. and learned Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) has deprecated the idea of fostering the Irish landlords, in cultivating their estates, as a mischievous measure. Sir, I totally and entirely dissent from the hon. and learned Gentleman. I know of nothing that could be more advantageous than fostering Irish landlords to the very utmost in the cultivation of their estates. I saw, not long ago, a statement to the effect, that by the advance of 24,000 l. by the Government to Lord De Freyne, he had been able to produce an absolute improvement in his estate of 3,000 l. a year. I cannot conceive that England could do better than advance, not 24,000 l., but 24,000,000 l. to Ireland, if we could thereby raise the incomes of the Irish landlords. It appears to me, that if we sought to put out our money at the most profitable interest, this would be the most profitable. Believing, as I do, that you cannot separate your interests from those of Ireland—that if there be any improvements in Ireland, such as there has been, and to so enormous an extent, as by the advance of 24,000 l. to one landed proprietor—if there be a profit of 10 per cent upon such an advance, nothing could tend more to the improvement of Ireland at large than such advances. And, to me, the only matter of regret is, that we have not ten thousand Lord De Freynes to come and ask the Government for 24,000 l. each. As to an alteration of the poor law in Ireland, I gather, from the reception which was given to the observations of my noble Friend, that the House will concur in his propositions. As regards emigration, I am not one of those who think that the way to strengthen the empire is to transport its best men to a foreign country. Who, Sir, are those who do emigrate? They are not the weak, the feeble, the inefficient, and the unenterprising: no; but it is the very bone and sinew of the country that are taken out of it. Instead of the country being thus made richer, it is rendered poorer — instead of being made more powerful, it is rendered weaker. You should look to other means to strengthen the industry, increase the wealth, and add to the prosperity, of the nation. I concur in thanking my noble Friend for what he has done; but I do not think he has gone far enough.

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With respect to the facilities which my noble Friend has proposed as to the sale of estates, and the conversion of long leases into freeholds, I look to them with great satisfaction and great admiration. As, however, I said before, I regret that my noble Friend did not bring in a great measure for the promotion of railways in Ireland. As I am prepared with such a plan, I trust my noble Friend will give to it his full consideration.
Motion agreed to.
Bill brought in, and read a first time.

RAILWAYS IN IRELAND.
MR. W. R. COLLETT, who had a Motion on the Paper to the effect—
"That it is the opinion of this House no public works can be of greater importance to the future prosperity of Ireland than Railways, and that every facility for their construction be given by Her Majesty's Government, provided always that proper security can be afforded for the repayment of any advances made by the Treasury;"—
expressed his gratification at the announcement made by the noble Lord the Member for Lynn (Lord G. Bentinck), that the noble Lord had prepared a measure upon the subject. Much had been said relative to the importance and necessity of giving encouragement to the employment of English capital in Ireland; but he was not aware of a question to which each succeeding Government gave less attention than the questions of Irish railways and fisheries; both of which, if properly encouraged, might be made sources of wealth and prosperity to that country. The Government first objected that they had a dislike to interfere with private enterprise; but he was well aware that the directors and proprietary of Irish railways would be most happy if the Government would assist them in carrying out their works. Then a doubt was expressed as to whether the money would be properly expended; but he could see no reason for such a doubt if the management were good. At last they came to the question of security: and the security which railway companies proposed to give was to make over the railways at once into the hands of the Government as a guarantee for any advances which might be made of the public money. Now the Government had not scrupled to spend in the course of three months upwards of half a million of money in unproductive labour—namely, the making of roads; but they refused their assistance in promoting the construction of the most productive
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of public works, railways. In two instances only had assistance been given, and these were in the case of the Dublin and Kingstown and the Dublin and Drogheda railways, and the greatest advantages had been experienced in consequence. If the Government would render the Irish railway companies the necessary assistance, before forty-eight hours had expired upwards of 50,000 able-bodied men would be taken off the public works upon which they were now employed, and the Government would not be required to advance any money until the proprietaries had advanced 20 per cent on the outlay. The country, he was told, was to be improved by draining, and agriculture was to be fostered in every possible manner. But what was the use of drainage and such improvements if they had not the means of communication throughout the country? How was the land to be permanently improved, except by the introduction of lime and other manures at a cheap rate? And what cheaper means could they have for their conveyance than railways? He might be taunted with being interested in the question, on account of his being a proprietor in Irish railways; but he begged to assure the House that he was not actuated by self-interested motives, and as a proof of his desire to promote the welfare of Ireland, he might state that he had resided in that country during the whole autumn, that he had bought all the corn he could, erected mills, and for the whole of that period had employed upwards of 500 men in his slate quarries. Not one of these men had died, except from natural causes; not one had been in the poor house, and not a penny had been asked by any of them from the relief committees. He had said to them, "You may have your wages in money or in corn at cost price;" and by these means 500 men, or, with their families, 2000 persons, had been supported ever since the works were begun. The companies promoting the main trunk lines of railway from Dublin to Cork and to Limerick, did not want a farthing from the Government; it was only in the construction of lines running through the distressed districts of the country that loans were required. He was quite convinced of this: but as the noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) had prepared a measure, he would, by leave of the House, for the present withdraw his Motion.
LORD J. RUSSELLsaid, that as he had stated in the early part of the evening,

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the question of advancing money for the construction of railroads in Ireland was still under the consideration of Government; but there were certain points still to be ascertained before they could come to a determination upon it.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

SUGAR IN BREWERIES—THE RUM DUTIES.
On the bringing up of the Report on the Customs and Excise,
MR. SMITH O'BRIENrose, and said, he was desirous to obtain a pledge from the Government that they would give the distilling interest some time before proceeding with their measures for allowing the use of sugar in breweries and distilleries, and reducing the duty on rum. He had that morning received a letter which stated, that the distillers of Dublin regarded the Government measure with alarm, and were apprehensive that its effect would be utterly ruinous to them, and to every distiller in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman stated, the other night, that he trusted a large quantity of corn, which was now used in breweries and distilleries, would be superseded by the use of sugar. In that desire he cordially concurred; and he would go so far as to say, that, in the present circumstances of the country, grain ought not to be used in distilleries at all, but that every possible facility should be given for the introduction of sugar and molasses, as a substitute, or any other article that might be available for conversion into spirits. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, however, had taken advantage of the feeling which existed upon the subject, and had accompanied this measure with another, which was, in point of fact, a measure of free trade, and which would have the effect of destroying the protection now enjoyed by the Irish distillers — a protection which, he confessed, at the same time, amounted nearly to prohibition. He was not prepared to say, that the existing protection was not too high — the duty levied on rum introduced into Ireland being 8s. 10 d. per gallon—but it was now proposed that the duty should be at 3s. 2d., so that the protection would be only 6d. per gallon; and at the same time the use of molasses was to be prohibited. All he wished to say further was, that it was not fair that one of the few remaining branches of manufacture in Ireland should be ruined by surprise; and he hoped to have a pledge from the right
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hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the parties should have a little time for the consideration of the measure.
CAPTAIN GORDONalso urged upon the Government the propriety of not proceeding hastily with the measure.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERcould not see that any delay would enable the House to discuss the measure with greater advantage than at present, though it might give parties an opportunity of raising an agitation upon the subject. No doubt the proposed measure would effect a considerable reduction in the amount of protection which the Scotch and Irish distillers at present enjoyed; but he had merely placed them in precisely the same relative position as the distillers in England; and thus, what the hon. Gentleman had so often asked for, equal law, would be established in each country.
An HON. MEMBERasked the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if it was his intention to lay upon the Table of the House the report of the experiments which had been made for the purpose of ascertaining the quantity of molasses which was equivalent to a quarter of malt?
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERreplied, that he had considered the subject, and, upon the whole, he did not think it would be advisable to do so; because the experiments were conducted upon a very small scale, by persons who had no very great experience in breweries and distilleries; and, as he did not rest his statement upon the results arrived at by those experiments, he thought that it would not be fair to lay them upon the Table.
Report agreed to.
House adjourned.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2a Corn Importation; Navigation.
3a and passed:—Corn Importation; Navigation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Guardians of the Woodbridge Union, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement.—From poor Law Guardians of Leeds, for Amendment of the Poor Removal Act.—From Brewers of Bury St. Edmunds, for the Repeal of the Act prohibiting the Use of Sugar and Molasses in Breweries.—From Ireland, for the Adoption of such Measures as will ensure the People of Ireland such a Supply of Food as will save them from Starvation.

CORN IMPORTATION BILL—NAVIGATION BILL.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEmoved, that the Standing Orders, Nos. 26, and 155, be suspended, in order to allow these Bills to be carried through as quickly as possible.
The EARL of CLARENDONsaid, it was his duty to ask their Lordships to assent to the Bills, which were read a first time on Saturday, for admitting corn free of duty into this country, and for the suspension of the navigation laws, until the 1st of September next. Although he anticipated no opposition upon the part of their

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Lordships to the second reading and further progress of the Bills which he intended to move, yet he was desirous to state the reasons which made the Government wish that the Bills should be carried in the shortest possible time, in order to afford every facility within their power to the importation of corn to this country. Inasmuch, however, as their Lordships were, no doubt, desirous of proceeding to the business for which they were especially summoned, he would not detain them at any length. The necessity of affording facilities for the introduction of foreign corn, was now more evident and more urgent than it appeared some weeks ago. The quality of the last wheat crop was good, and the quantity nearly an average, and an unprecedented quantity of foreign corn, amounting to from 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 quarters, had been introduced into this country. The price of wheat in the first week in October was 54 s. per quarter; and, although it rose to 62 s. in the first week of November, yet it fell to 59 s. in the third week of the latter month, with a downward tendency. The Government received satisfactory assurances that the large importation of foreign corn would go far to remedy the failure in the potato crop; and they had also reason to believe that the failure of that crop had been greatly exaggerated, as well in France and Belgium as in this country. The case, however, was different now. The apprehended demand for an unusual supply was not confined to this country; but on the 16th of November the French Minister of Agriculture and Commerce published an official statement, to the effect that the failure in the potato crop was one-third or one-fourth of the whole. Great and general distress prevailed in France, Holland, Belgium, and the whole of Germany; and prices at Antwerp, Havre, and London were so nearly on an equality that the duty of 4s. a quarter, which the Government proposed to suspend, had become an important consideration. In France the navigation laws had been suspended, and a nominal duty of 6d. per quarter was imposed upon wheat. We ought, therefore, not to allow ourselves to be deprived of any advantages in the way of the importation of corn, either by the operation of our corn or our navigation laws. It was stated that the effect of repealing the duty of 4s. would be, that the present holders of corn in bond would pocket the whole of the duty remitted. But, for himself, he confessed that he regarded that much-abused class
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of persons, the dealers in corn, as great public benefactors, to whom they were all indebted, and he would rather they should put 50,000 l. into their pockets, which it was said they would do if Government remitted the duty on 260,000 quarters of wheat, than that the sufferings of the poor of this country should be aggravated by the corn being taken away and distributed in other parts of the world. The navigation laws were now found to be operating very injuriously against the means of procuring supplies of food. At present we could only get corn in British vessels, or the vessels of the country exporting the corn, and the consequence was, that a difficulty was thereby created in bringing corn from Odessa and ports in the United States, inasmuch as corn from Odessa or the United States could not, unless carried in British, be carried in any other than in Russian or American vessels, while it appeared that of 520 vessels laden with corn at Odessa, only 49 ships were English. The navigation laws had been suspended in France, and the result of that was that 37,000 tons of grain had arrived at Marseilles, which could not, under our navigation laws, come to this country; but supposing that we allowed Dutch or American vessels to bring corn to this country from other countries, we would thereby facilitate the importation of corn. Such a measure was rendered the more necessary from the present high rate of freights everywhere. At Odessa, where the rate of freight for corn was usually 8s. per quarter, it was now 14 s.; at Trieste, where it was usually 7s., it was now 15 s.; in the United States, where the prices were commonly 8s. per quarter for wheat, and for flour 3s. 6d. a barrel, freights were now 15 s. and 5s. 6d. respectively. There was, indeed, great difficulty in procuring ships at all in the United States, in consequence of the Government of that country taking up all the vessels they could procure to convey stores and provisions to their army in Mexico. The result of the present high rate of freights was, that ships were tempted to make long voyages, and that vessels were withdrawn from the coasting trade. The freight of a quarter of corn from London to Cork, which was usually from 1s. to 1s. 6d., was now 3s. 6d., being about treble the ordinary amount. It was hoped that the effect of repealing the navigation laws would be, that some British vessels might be disengaged and employed in the coasting trade. He confessed that he did not expect any very

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great benefit from the removal of these restrictions; but if their suspension caused any larger importation, he would say even the importation of a single additional cargo—or if they thereby prevented prices from rising any higher (which was the more likely to happen), the people of this country would feel that they were to some extent in a better condition, and their Lordships would have the consciousness that they had done what they could to mitigate the evils of the present scarcity.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, he should offer no opposition to the two measures proposed by the Government.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURYsaid, he would not offer any opposition to the suspension of the corn and navigation laws, although he did not expect that corn would be much lower in price if they were passed.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, that every noble Lord of proper feelings, who knew the actual state of Ireland, must support the Government in their present measures. If they had been permanent, he should have opposed them; but, as their operation would only be temporary, he should offer no objection to them.
Bills read 2a (according to Order), and Standing Orders Nos. 26 and 155 considered (according to Order) and dispensed with: Committee negatived; and Bills read 3a, and passed.

STATE OF IRELAND.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEthen rose and said: I rise in pursuance of a Notice which I gave to move for the production of certain Papers relating to the Distress which at present prevails in Ireland, including the Correspondence which has taken place between the Board of Works and the Commissariat Department, and certain Officers engaged in the conduct of the arrangements which have been made with a view to the alleviation of that distress. My Lords, the Motion which I have now to make is one with respect to which I anticipate no opposition; but nevertheless I should not think it respectful to your Lordships, or suitable to the importance of the subject, if I did not avail myself of the earliest opportunity of laying before this House the actual state of things with relation to which I am about to make this Motion—to the measures to which the Government have had recourse for the purpose of mitigating the distress in Ireland, and the measures which, instructed by the experience of the past, and made more and
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more aware as the season advanced of the magnitude of the calamity, Her Majesty's Government propose to submit to your Lordships, in the hope that there will be only one feeling of anxiety to administer, to the utmost extent that shall be safe and practicable, every remedy that can be presented for that unfortunate part of the kingdom. I am fully aware, that in the statement which I have to make, I cannot fail to weary your Lordships; or if I should not be wearisome, it can only be caused by the deep and melancholy interest which every one of your Lordships must take in the subject of this Motion. It is useless, my Lords, for us to deceive ourselves with regard to the magnitude of the evil which we are now called upon to meet: that evil has been, unhappily, placed before us in colours too clear and distinct to leave room for doubt; and whatever flattering hopes your Lordships may have indulged in at an earlier period of the season, I have no doubt that when this calamity and its extent have been thoroughly sifted and examined, it will be found by your Lordships to be the greatest calamity with respect to that part of the United Kingdom which has ever fallen upon any country described in the history of civilized Europe. We have read of such calamities in oriental countries, the descriptions of which are almost poetical; but within that period of history with the facts of which we are accurately acquainted, there is no account of the means of sustenance of a people having been so generally destroyed, so entirely withdrawn from them, as that which we have witnessed in Ireland. It is as useless and as unwise for us to attempt to deceive ourselves with respect to the magnitude of the calamity with which we have to contend, as it would be in case of a war to underrate the force, the numbers, and the power of the enemy by whom we might be threatened; and I will therefore state to your Lordships what, according to the best calculations, is the amount of loss in money value which the country has sustained from the recent failure in the crops in Ireland. Taking the rent of the land in Ireland for potatoes at 10 l. an acre, and for oats at 3l. 10 s., the deficit in money from the failure of the crop would be 11,350,000 l. in potatoes, and 4,660,000 l. in oats, or about a total value of 16,000,000 l., which has fallen on a country, which, if it cannot be said to be the poorest, is certainly not one of the richest in the world; and in weight between 8,000,000 and

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9,000,000 of tons—a loss equivalent to 1,500,000 acres of arable land. Two considerations must arise in your Lordships' minds on the bare simple statement of these facts—that this is a calamity which is a dispensation of Providence to which we must submit, and that it is one which we are bound to endeavour as far as it is practicable to alleviate; but that it is, at the same time, one to which it is impossible to apply a complete and adequate remedy. There is another consideration which cannot fail to impress itself on your Lordships, so many of whom are acquainted with the history and state of society in Ireland—and it is this, that great as such a calamity as this would be in any country in the world, there are circumstances in the habits and situation of the people of Ireland which aggravate its weight and pressure on them, and deprive them, in a greater degree than would be the case with any other people, of other means of relief, by taking refuge in different means of subsistence or different habits from those to which they are accustomed. One conviction, then, will arise in your minds, and I hope also in the minds of all persons in this country as well as in Ireland, viz., that whatever disposition there may be to affix blame in particular quarters, there is no person or body of persons who can with any degree of justice be charged with having produced the weight of this calamity. I state this because I know that many persons say that they think there has been that in the conduct of the landlords of Ireland which has contributed to produce the calamity with which that country is afflicted. I have already stated this belief, that whatever blame may attach (as must be the case in all societies) to particular individuals or classes, or whether or not more blame may attach to the landlords of Ireland than to the same class in any other country, for a greater degree of negligence or remissness, yet I venture to say that there is nothing that is within their reach to perform, that there is no effort they could have made within the past ten years, that could in any degree have averted that great calamity from Ireland. I have heard it said in some societies, why did the landlords of Ireland allow this population to depend for their subsistence on so wretched, uncertain, and perilous a produce as the potato? Why, it would be quite as reasonable and just, if three-fourths of this great city of London were to be destroyed by fire, to ask those
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by whom the houses were built, why they did not build them of marble or Portland stone? The answer would have been, London would not have been London if that condition had been applied to its building. And so, in like manner, the answer would be, that Ireland would not have been Ireland, or its population what it is. It may be much to be lamented that the production of the potato should have increased to the extent it has; but there have been no means in the power of those who possess the land of that country, or in the power of the Government, but means of the most gradual description. Those means have, I believe, been applied to a certain extent to industry and agriculture in Ireland, and the cultivation of that country has been of late years assuming a character of greater utility to the people than before. This has been effected by the introduction of science and capital. But those means are in their nature slow; and if the proprietors of land in Ireland are charged with not effecting a great alteration suddenly in the social economy of the country, let it be remembered that if they had endeavoured to do so, they could only do it by means of exercising the powers which belong to the rights and privileges of property—powers which in full no man would wish to exercise under the present circumstances of Ireland, and which, if they had been exercised, would subject them to reprobation and blame—by doing that which would have been undoubtedly most effectual in an economical point of view, but which, by the general clearing of estates, would have been attended with an amount of misery, crime, and unhappiness, which I do not believe those persons who suggest that mode of proceeding, because they believe that in its ultimate results it would be beneficial to the whole country, would have themselves countenanced; while they would not have abstained from condemning every person who might take on himself to pursue it, and by so doing sport with the lives and the happiness of persons who were living on his land, for the sake of obtaining an ultimate economical benefit. Such economical advantages can only be arrived at by slow degrees; and it is while a better system has been going on in many parts of the country, that Ireland has been subjected to that overwhelming affliction to which your Lordships' attention is now called. My Lords, if this has been the case with regard to the proprietors of the soil—if they have not been enabled by any efforts

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of theirs to ward off so sudden and heavy a blow—equally is it true that it was impossible for any Government to prevent the calamity which has fallen with such weight on the unhappy population of that country. My Lords, we must recollect what is the nature of the evil with which the Government and society have had to deal; that it has been a question not of money, as many have supposed it, but a question of food; and that whatever efforts the Government might have made—whatever sums it might devote to the object of guarding against a calamity of this description—whatever might be effected by any poor law that exists, or any poor law that might exist in that country for providing against destitution, neither of these systems of relief, whether administered centrally by the Government, or locally by boards of guardians, would be able to do what was necessary to avert such a calamity, namely, to create food. It is in the power of Governments to abstract food from one part of the country or of the world, and to convey it to another—it is in the power of the poor law to take money out of one man's pocket and put it into another man's; but neither can produce that which is wanted in the present instance—a supply of food adequate to the wants of millions of persons who have been deprived of the lowest description of food, which is that to which they have hitherto been accustomed. My Lords, supposing it had been a question of money, I am quite prepared to say that there is no sum which it would not have been the duty of Government to have proposed to Parliament, for the extinction, if by such means it could be extinguished, of so great an evil. But if Government had applied ten millions to that purpose, would that have been adequate? Do those persons who state this as their opinion of what the conduct of the Government should have been, recollect that the very act of the Government in this direction, the instant it became known, added inconceivably to the difficulty, and that even where the result of such extraordinary interference was the production of an artificial plenty for the moment, it led, in the very next week or month, to increased scarcity? If ten millions had been applied to that object, before those ten millions could have been taken into the market to have purchased food, whatever the price of corn might have been at the time, prices would have risen, and you would have been told that twenty millions were wanted. Before the twenty millions
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could have been applied, forty millions would have been wanted, because at every moment the action of the Government would be felt in the markets of England and of Europe; they came into the markets known to be the most powerful purchasers, and the effect would be the invariable rise of price, and that no other purchasers would be able to contend against them. By coming into the markets and making biddings higher than the biddings of other countries, undoubtedly they might have obtained corn for the moment; but the effect would be that prices in those markets would be raised, until the scarcity would become infinitely greater than before. It is universally admitted that Governments are the worst of cultivators, the worst of manufacturers, and the worst of traders. But does the fact of a thing being much wanted at the moment convert Government into the best of traders? On the contrary, their action is then more felt than ever; and the consequence of their interference is more injurious. And I must say with respect to the late and to the present Governments, that nothing could have justified their going into any market at all, but the extreme reserve and prudence with which they have conducted their operations—a reserve and prudence which have enabled them to go into the different markets of the world without exciting, by their caution and the limited extent to which their operations have been confined, any particular degree of attention and alarm which would be likely to divert the natural current of trade; on which alone you can depend, either in times of prosperity or of adversity, for the supply of any country. I have now, my Lords, to state what has been the course taken by the Government, with the view of mitigating the distress when it arose, and for the purpose of still further mitigating it, when, towards the close of the year, the extent and nature of the distress became still more apparent. I shall then state what are the immediate measures which it is the intention of the Government now to propose, with a view to the utmost practical amelioration of the condition of the people of Ireland. Your Lordships will recollect that at the close of last Session, and at the commencement of the alarm respecting the distress which prevailed in Ireland, Her Majesty's Government did not think fit to allow Parliament to separate, without providing what they thought might prove a considerable mitigation of the distress which it was apparent

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was approaching. The measure then passed has proved, I believe, to the extent of which it was capable, an alleviation of the distress, though I am ready to admit at the same time, from the very magnitude of the evil—from the growth of the machinery necessary to meet that evil—from the very extended operation of that Act in many parts of Ireland, that it has been attended with many evil consequences; and consequences which your Lordships will do well to weigh, in determining on those measures to which you shall now have recourse. But at the time your Lordships adopted that measure, you adopted it with the view of making what was then only thought necessary—a bridge to pass over to another year—until the harvest time, and certainly without any expectation—an expectation which no man could then entertain—that the harvest would have proved a failure to the extent of three times the failure of the preceding year. In such circumstances you adopted that measure, in order to ensure a certain amount of labour and relief during that period, in which it was presumed there would be a great deficiency of food in Ireland. It was intended only to meet the urgency of the moment, and was founded on principles which no man could have defended as a permanent measure. I, myself, when it was introduced, stated I conceived it to be unjustifiable in principle. I stated it was subject to the evils of a labour rate, though in my opinion it was not so bad, not so vicious in principle, as a labour rate; but I did not disguise from myself or from the House, that though Her Majesty's Government, and though the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, who sat by my side at that moment, and whom your Lordships knew to be so intimately acquainted with the state of that country and of society in it, were persuaded that it would afford a temporary mitigation of the evil to be apprehended; yet, I say, I could not disguise from myself, nor did I state the contrary to the House, that it was not calculated for anything like a permanent remedy. That measure was immediately acted upon in Ireland; it was founded on an attempt to unite relief and employment. I believe it has always been found, that wherever that attempt has been made under any system in any country, the effect has been injurious either to labour or to relief; the relief is impaired by the work, and the work is impaired in its efficacy by the consideration of the relief.
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Nevertheless, that was the object of that measure, as it has been the object of many other measures which have been at different times and in different countries attempted to be applied to the social system in periods of scarcity and want; and, my Lords, I now believe, if the extent of the calamity had not proved to be so great—if the consequent alarm had not been of such a magnitude in Ireland when that scarcity came to be felt, that a very great number of people might have been relieved, and a very great amount of good might have been effected by that measure. I stated at that time that I did not at all look to the application of that relief to what were called "useless works." I apprehended at the time that there would have been a field of labour opened up in Ireland for making public works, such as might have afforded very great relief; and yet that none should have been entered on which were not of a permanent useful character. Had it been possible to have confined the operation of that measure to such works, I believe its operation would have been eminently beneficial; but, my Lords, from the moment that, owing to the state of alarm that prevailed in that country—from the moment that, owing to the disposition to call for assistance and advance of public money, that public money was applied to other than permanently useful works—from that moment the operation of that measure ceased to be of a useful character. Your Lordships have probably not forgotten, that in the month of September the alarm respecting the impending scarcity of food in Ireland greatly increased: in October it increased again: and the consequence of that alarm was, that presentments were made for public works, in, I must say, a most unparalleled manner, and betraying a spirit of recklessness likely to be productive of the very worst results. It required positively an army of persons to superintend the operations. I will just state to your Lordships the number of persons employed by the Board of Works, not only to give your Lordships an idea of the efforts that were made to meet the evil, but also of the difficulties of carrying that measure into effect, and of the impossibility of continuing to persist in such a system. I find that there were employed by the board down to last year 385 surveyors and engineers, 2,832 check clerks, 6,894 overseers, 132 general clerks, and 491 pay clerks, making in all 8,000 or 9,000 persons employed by the Commissioners of

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Public Works, and employed too, all of them, in offices of trust. Now, I would ask your Lordships whether it is possible, with such a system, to exclude the occurrence of a great amount of abuse? I say it was altogether unavoidable, owing to the extent to which that system was carried. Of the Board of Works itself it is impossible to speak without the utmost respect—not with respect merely, but with gratitude. They were men who, with universal approbation, were selected at the time for their experience, their knowledge, their integrity and impartiality; and I am bound to say, that of the possession of all those qualities those gentlemen have given the most undoubted proofs throughout the whole course of those works. But it must be remembered that the Board of Works were obliged to operate upon the mass of the population through the instrumentality of others; that they were not always able to select the instruments whom they would prefer; that they were compelled to act under the pressure of circumstances, to confide in parties not always worthy of their confidence, and to place constant reliance upon local assistance; which local assistance, I am sorry to say, was not always forthcoming to the requisite extent, though in many cases it was readily conceded. However, the inevitable consequence of the measure has been, that, from the increased demand for labour for objects of a nature which could not be effectually controlled, a bounty was created for the indolent, the idle, and the profligate, to take advantage of that relief which was intended for the needy and the poor. Such a system, my Lords, when it came to exhibit itself as offering something like a premium on idleness, and consequently began to withdraw persons from useful occupations, and their habitual pursuits, called forth all that was bad, and all that was vicious, and all that was false, such as is to be found lurking in the bosom of all societies:—
"Et dolus, insidiæque, et amor sceleratus habendi."
All those passions which are found existing in all societies, and of course existing in this, are brought into vitality and life by the immense extension of these establishments. To a fearful extent were those sources of evil augmented. Many were there amongst the people of Ireland who were not exposed to the degree of want which has been somewhat inconsiderately predicated of the whole population; those
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men quitted their own possessions for the purpose and with the intention of getting employment from the State, in a manner neither advantageous to themselves nor the country. My Lords, I have fairly stated what I think were the vices of, and at the same time the reasons for establishing that system, and for maintaining it up to a certain extent. Beyond that extent, however, in autumn last, it undoubtedly went; and I, for one, felt no surprise, and feel none now, at the general sentiment which in autumn last was expressed in Ireland, that the money which was being advanced for the purpose of relief should be extended to advances for the purpose of effecting useful private works when there were no useful public works on which the people could be employed. Incessant applications were made to Government to that effect; and the Government of Ireland, with the sanction of the English Government, did, under the authority of Mr. Labouchere's letter, authorize advances for that purpose. That extension was sanctioned by Her Majesty's Government, for they had very little difficulty in coming to the conclusion, that where proper security for repayment was given, money might be advanced to the electoral districts at the instance of the parties principally interested. The Government judged that that mode of relieving distress would be amongst the most effectual, and they acceded to applications made under Mr. Labouchere's letter. It was opened to the parties concerned to make those applications; they did make them to a considerable extent; and under the operation of both systems a great amount of relief was given to the people of Ireland. Under the operations of these two systems—I mean that constituted first by the Act of last Session, and by the extension afforded by Mr. Labouchere's letter—a great amount of relief has been afforded in Ireland, though undoubtedly such relief has not been attended with such beneficial consequences as to leave the country in a greatly improved state. But, my Lords, the attention of Her Majesty's Government was not confined to those measures only, and to their endeavours for carrying them out. Relief committees were also, with the concurrence of Her Majesty's Government, established in every part of the country; 950 of those relief committees have been put into operation, and every one of them has in a greater or less degree received not only countenance but pecuniary assistance

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from Her Majesty's Government. Although at the same time it would have been, for the reasons I have stated, most impolitic and unwise of Her Majesty's Government to have become traders in human food, or to have interfered with the steady current of private supply and of private enterprise; yet, whilst they have fulfilled the engagements made last summer with the city of London, and with the mercantile interests of the country, not to interfere with the foreign trade, they have still been active in purchasing, where it could be done quietly and safely, and without breach of faith or other injustice, such an amount of provisions as might enable them to establish depôts in particular places; and they have accordingly provided such an amount as I cannot exactly state, but an amount which has been sufficient to produce an effect in particular quarters, more particularly in very remote places, difficult of access, where the ordinary means of relief could scarcely have been brought into operation. My Lords, they have also furnished all the assistance that could be furnished by means of public mills, which have been incessantly employed in grinding the corn which had been brought to Ireland for the relief of the suffering poor; and, though the Government have not interfered to regulate the supply of food, yet the efforts that they have made were necessary, and have been attended with success. Her Majesty's Government have also employed—anve I am glad to state this, because a question was asked in this House, whether the means which the Admiralty had at its disposal, had been properly employed—why, my Lords, the Admiralty could not interfere with the regular course of foreign relations; but as far as related to the distribution of food, the efforts of the Admiralty have been incessant, effectual, and successful—and I trust they will continue to be so employed. I hold in my hand, my Lords, an account of Her Majesty's shipping which have been so employed in the service of provisioning the people. I will not fatigue your Lordships by following the example of a noble Earl the other night, who enumerated all the ships that might be employed in such a service; but I may state, that I hold in my hand a list of those vessels, which I could, if I pleased, enumerate. I find that forty vessels have been actually incessantly employed in that service, and that five more are on the point of being engaged, and probably will be so next week.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELL: Will the noble Marquess state how much has already been distributed for the relief of the poor?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEcontinued: Upon reflection, I am sure that the noble Earl will see that is a question I should not answer. Instead of reading over a whole list of those vessels, I think it will be most satisfactory to your Lordships that I should inform you of their number, as I have already done—that their tonnage amounts to 28,232 tons—and that the power of the steamers is equivalent to that of 8,373 horses. By these means a certain amount of good has been effected in those parts that have been the most distressed by the pressure of the calamity. These details may appear insignificant and trifling; but it must be satisfactory to your Lordships to know that nothing has been omitted by the Government to make up the deficiency which would be created by the increasing price and demand for grain. But even beyond the statements which I have thus thought it my duty to lay before the House, further and other efforts have been made—soup-kitchens have been established in every part of Ireland. Not only has that been done by a system of donations to a large amount; but everything that could be found in the shape of boilers, iron pots, and vessels of that sort, has been made available; and any stores of that description that could be found in the military departments of the country have been placed at the disposal of the Government of Ireland, and are already beginning to produce a beneficial effect. Many grinding mills also have been prepared, and have been sent over to facilitate the grinding of corn. I think, my Lords, I have now stated what has been done up to the present moment with the view of meeting this deplorable calamity. And now I have to state what Her Majesty's Government are convinced must be the true principles on which all future remedies can be advantageously applied. My Lords, to continue upon its present extensive scale the whole of those works which have been commenced in Ireland, and which have been projected, and to add still further to their number, as it would undoubtedly be necessary to do if no other source of employment could be supplied, will, I am sure, upon reflection appear to your Lordships, if not absolutely impracticable, at least unwise, and likely to be attended with the most mischievous

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and unfortunate consequence of permanently diverting the people of that country from engaging and persevering in their usual pursuits, by accustoming them to look to employment from the Government as that from which more is to be obtained than from the cultivation of the soil, or from their customary occupations. I believe in many cases the consequence of those works has been, that the most fertile soils have not been cultivated; that the greatest encouragements to cultivate them which have been held out by the proprietors have been found to be useless, on account of the extraordinary preference given by the labourers to the employment of the Government. The ill-working of the system at first led to the adoption of task-work; but even the adoption of that mode of work, though it had for a great time the advantage of causing a greater amount of work to be done, was yet not without its attendant evil. Its evil was this—the best workmen were those who naturally got the best pay, because they could perform the most work; and its consequence was, that the best workmen became quite inaccessible to the proprietors of the land, who were obliged to put up with the refuse workmen, whilst the Government works were monopolising the best workmen. The result was, that the cultivation of the land was neglected, though the cultivation of the land was the real remedy for the evils under which Ireland now labours. My Lords, all these reasons will, I am convinced, weigh with your Lordships, as they have with the Government, in coming to the determination that those presentment works shall cease—not suddenly, on the instant — but as speedily as possible on the completion of such useful works as may be at present engaged in: that the works shall be useful must necessarily be the foundation of any good measure to be proposed. Then, my Lords, as soon as it was foreseen that it would be necessary speedily to escape from a system which was never intended to be a permanent one, there arose the necessity for securing a large demand for labour in Ireland. And, my Lords, I confess I have throughout felt, as I believe every one must feel upon consideration of the papers which will be laid upon the Table of your Lordships' House, that that demand for labour in Ireland is to be found through the medium of individual proprietors, assisted for that purpose by the Government. My Lords, there is every advantage
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to the country as well as to individuals in works being so carried on and so directed. The individual proprietor is the best judge of what works ought to be done — the individual proprietor is the best judge of the means by which they should be carried on — the individual proprietor is the best able to select the labourer, and the tools, and the machinery, with which they should be carried on—the individual proprietor is the one that has the deepest interest in their ultimate success. In proportion, therefore, as you can, through the medium of the individual proprietor, call a great amount of activity, exertion, and labour, into existence, to that amount do you really benefit and increase the prosperity of the whole country. And if, as I am sanguine enough to hope, by the measures about to be proposed, every individual proprietor in Ireland will be placed in a situation—as he will be placed, if he choose—to give a very great amount of employment in the mode most beneficial to himself and to the country at large; then I trust your Lordships will see, not only a temporary amelioration—not only an occasional remedy—but something like a permanent, lasting remedy to the evils of that country; for it will secure, not only for this year, but for years to come, a steady, regular, constant, and well-understood application of large sums of money for the purpose of promoting the industry of the country. With this view a Treasury Minute was made on the 1st of December, and subsequently extended by another statute, which, though in part it carried out a previous existing statute, another Act of Parliament would be required for giving effect to the intention of the Government. Her Majesty's Government now propose that every landed proprietor in Ireland who thinks proper to carry on any system of improvement — be that improvement what it may, so that it is a substantial improvement — shall receive a loan, for which he shall pay no other interest than 3½ per cent, for the next twenty-two years. Upon entailed estates the life proprietor will be enabled to obtain that loan upon the same terms as the proprietor in fee-simple. They will not only have the opportunity of obtaining the loan for 3½ per cent for twenty-two years, but they may return the principal by instalments, and during any period of that time, choosing their own times; or they may pay 6½ per cent, and so return no principal. Further,

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if they prefer relieving themselves of a charge so incurred for enabling them to improve parts of an estate, the life proprietor may, in the case of entailed estates, be permitted to sell portions of them in order to relieve the remainder. This is a measure which, I think, will have a most certain, and, I venture to anticipate, a most rapid effect in ameliorating the condition of the people of Ireland. But Her Majesty's Government do not confine themselves to that alone. I should have said, having adverted in the earlier part of my speech to the works undertaken under Mr. Labouchere's letter, it will be deemed but an act of fairness, that many who have undertaken works, from a desire for the public welfare, shall have the facility afforded them of accepting the more advantageous terms which this Act will give them; and they will thus place themselves in the same position as those who apply for, and receive, loans under this measure. There is another description of works which will remain very much upon their present footing, except that greater facilities will be afforded for their execution than under the Acts of the late Session of Parliament; I mean drainage works, to be undertaken for the proprietors, but by the Board of Works; all individual works—I mean all works of a minor character—for the improvement of estates had better be left in the hands of individuals. But on private estates, or on combinations of private estates or of proprietors, there are many instances in which the operations for the benefit of those estates, particularly when connected with such works as drainages, embankments, water-courses, and outfalls, might be much more effectually carried on under the superintendence of the Board of Works, than of the individual proprietors. It is proposed for all these things, independently of the loan to individuals at 3½ per cent to carry on such works as they shall specify, that, by giving 4 per cent, any proprietor, or knot of proprietors combining, may obtain assistance, and thus be enabled to co-operate in the carrying forward of reproductive works; the Board of Works superintending such works, for the purpose of compelling those proprietors whose assistance should not be obtained, from their being out of the country, or otherwise, to co-operate in and bear jointly the charges of those works. The general result, then, of these two measures, taken together, would be, that there was not one proprietor in Ireland, from one end of the
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country to the other, be his circumstances what they might—be he in the situation of what was called rich, or being comparatively poor — who would not be enabled, if he thought proper, to set in active operation an amount of labour, profitable to himself and advantageous to the country. And, my Lords, I do not think so ill of the proprietors of Ireland as to believe that with all these facilities made accessible to them in every shape, and made attainable in every mode, and with every incitement to adopt them, derived from the events which the last six months have produced, and which, I am sorry to say, are in prospect for years yet to come, they will not universally, or with very few exceptions, avail themselves almost immediately of them, and that at no distant period the country will exhibit a scene of active labour and employment from one end to the other, the effect of which will be to supply a demand for labour which it is evident there is not at present the means of providing by the ordinary modes, or by perseverance in what have hitherto been the ordinary habits of the island. I must freely state to your Lordships, that, in my own opinion, this is the most important measure that Her Majesty's Government could propose. It is one in which, individually, I have long felt the greatest personal interest. There are undoubtedly other measures which it is hoped may also contribute to ensure the great object of effecting an alteration in the habits of the people, by creating a demand for labour. Before I enter upon those measures, I should state that it is conceived, that in the changes which will be operated through the country, a change will also take place between the employment of labourers under the Relief Act, and that of labourers upon works conducted under the Board of Works; that in passing from one state to the other, under the present unfortunate circumstances of a scarcity of food, and the difficulty of procuring it, there will naturally be a state of considerable difficulty, in which some public relief must be afforded—relief which can only be afforded upon temporary principles, without making the measure a permanent law. It is supposed that, as these public works drop, and before the others are, to the fullest extent, pursued, there must be a considerable number of persons dependent upon public charity for support—upon charity which it is impossible, in the present condition of Ireland, to expect individuals to give. A Bill,

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therefore, will be introduced to effect a distribution of food to persons only who are indigent, destitute, and evidently unable to procure sustenance. This measure is to be accompanied with what has been justly and appropriately called the workhouse test. No person is to be admitted to have this food that can be admitted into the workhouse and receive sustenance and support there; but in cases where the workhouse test cannot be applied, where persons are absolutely destitute, and are proved to have no means of employment, it is proposed, for a limited period, to distribute food in the form in which this kind of relief has hitherto been found most effective. From what I have learned I believe this distribution will be found most beneficial through the medium of soup shops in every part of Ireland; and for this purpose newly constituted relief committees will be provided, whose particular duty will be to superintend the relief so afforded to destitute persons who cannot be admitted into the workhouse. It is proposed to confine the means of procuring this relief to a rate to be levied upon the places: only one half to be levied upon the place, and the other half to be supplied by the country. This, I repeat, is only a temporary measure: it is intended only for places where, more or less, there is misery and destitution—which misery and destitution, it is hoped, will subside as all the works to which I have alluded are brought into play. It is also intended, my Lords, to furnish a loan of another description. One of the objects of the greatest importance in the present state of Ireland is to secure to the utmost extent consistent with the inscrutable designs of Providence the proceeds of the approaching harvest. Very great apprehensions—I am afraid not unfounded apprehensions — are entertained that in some parts of the country due measures have not been taken with this view. In some respects this has arisen from an unaccountable indisposition on the part of labourers to cultivate the soil; but it has also risen, in many instances, from poverty—the poverty of small landowners and farmers, in not being able to furnish the labourers with the means of subsistence while engaged in that task, and not only that, but unable also to procure the seed necessary for the purpose. Now, my Lords, it is proposed, independently of the general loan, and of the permanent measures to which I have alluded, that there shall be a Government loan in connexion with the
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relief committee, and that certain sums of money shall be advanced, at the rate of 3½ per cent, to be repaid at the end of the present year (that is, at the end of the harvest) to such proprietors as require it, upon no other security than that of the growing crop, for the purpose of enabling them to secure it. Of the importance of some assistance of this sort, and of the necessity of making these advances, I shall convince your Lordships, by reading a few words from a letter from one of the most intelligent officers employed in Ireland, who has had most extensive means of observing the state of things in different countries. This letter was received only this morning, and it will convince your Lordships of the infinite importance of attending to this particular subject, and of applying to it all the stimulus and assistance which we have the power to give. The writer says—
"The people cry out in their agonies against high prices, but they never think of the extent to which prices very soon will be affected by the present inactivity of the agricultural classes. Now I believe that what would tend more than large importations of grain (be they ever so large) to the reduction of prices, within a short period, would be, that of now making ample preparation for the wants of next year. Although the people themselves do not look far forward, they must consider that the mercantile classes do, and that they necessarily speculate, not only on what is the present value of grain in hand, but on what will be the future value of it, if immediate efforts are not made to show, by the end of May next, a promising state of things for next harvest."
I am sure, my Lords, that the good sense of these observations cannot fail to address itself to your Lordships' minds. You will feel with the writer, as I feel, the necessity of endeavouring to provide for the future, as well as to render present aid, by stimulating and assisting the people to procure the amount of seed necessary to secure next harvest. In saying this, I do not mean the Government ought to engage, as has been sometimes said, in the supply of seed themselves, for the same reason that they ought not to engage in the direct supply of corn. Such a system would have a bad effect; and it is infinitely better, on every ground, that seed should be procured from those channels which are open to all. I have thought it right, after stating to your Lordships the measures which I think will be of great benefit to Ireland, by employing labour in that country, to mention these temporary measures, which will be applicable during the course of the change; and now, my Lords, I beg to resume the consideration

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of measures of a more permanent character. Here I must venture to call your Lordships' attention to one which has frequently been the subject of inquiry of committees and commissions, and long a subject of observation for speaking in both Houses of Parliament, but which has never yet been brought forward in a tangible shape; I mean what is called the reclamation of waste lands. It has been again and again stated that there exists in Ireland, to a far greater degree than in any other country, an amount of waste lands uncultivated, which might be brought into profitable occupation. I confess myself to be one of those who believe that the amount of these waste lands has been exaggerated. I confess, for one, we do not hold out any hopes, founded upon that statement, of any large or decisive effect; but at the same time, considering how many persons there are convinced, as they state, from personal observation, that there are lands capable of being so reclaimed and cultivated, it is thought right to introduce a measure, the effect of which will be to enable Government to purchase at its value a certain amount of the reclaimable wastes, and to dispose of them again, in some cases, to persons who may be willing to bring them into cultivation, and in others to retain them for public works, for the employment of labour, in the same manner as is done with Crown lands. This I am ready to admit is a measure which ought to be received with infinite caution; and among other reasons for the greatest caution is the necessity of preventing land so reclaimed and settled from becoming the re-formation of the cottier system, and of increasing the number of persons requiring relief and assistance. It will be for your Lordships hereafter to judge whether this particular evil can be duly guarded against. By reclaiming these lands, and dividing them into small farms (by "small" I mean farms comparatively large), and afterwards letting them upon such terms as to guard against any possible subdivision, this evil will be guarded against, and employment will be afforded to a great mass of persons. Such a Bill, my Lords, as this will be introduced, and it will be for your Lordships, and the other House of Parliament, candidly and calmly to consider how far it is applicable to the great object of making an additional market for labour in the cultivation of the soil, and for giving a stimulus to industry by the example which land so cultivated, on
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the largest and most scientific principles, is calculated to produce. At the same time, I admit my wish to be, that all these objects should be attained to their full extent by that individual enterprise to which I have alluded, and in which I believe that, ultimately, if it can be effected in this way, I hope no assistance will be required from any other source; and the superabundant population of Ireland will not need to look to the restoration of the potato, but to other means of subsistence. There is also another measure, the subject of which has been very much discussed at various times, and which is a question of much importance; I mean the subject of emigration. This subject has engaged the serious attention and consideration of Her Majesty's Government. I wish it were in my power to state any plan which could be safely adopted by which a large impetus could be given to that disposition which exists in all parts of the kingdom, but more particularly in Ireland, to seek employment on the other side the Atlantic. But, my Lords, after much consideration of this subject, it has been thought almost impracticable, without interfering with the current of emigration which now exists, to give any stimulus or any assistance to it in this country; but, on the other hand, we are disposed to think very great attractions might be afforded to emigrants in the shape of some security, when they had crossed the Atlantic, of being immediately placed in a situation to earn their living. The very small sum of money which has been placed at the disposal of Her Majesty's Government for that purpose, small as it is, has been attended with a great and beneficial effect. It is proposed considerably to increase that sum, to increase it to an extent so that any emigrant, to whatever extent it can be proved or presumed emigration will take place in its natural course, after providing due precautions against fraud, may at once upon landing be at the end of his labour, and at the term of his toil—that he may be furnished at once with the means of going to such situation as he shall find, together with his wife and family. On this subject it is not expedient that I should at present enter further. I will, however, state to your Lordships an instance to show, even without any assistance or facilities at all, the natural disposition which there is to emigrate, particularly in Ireland. I find that in the last year 32,000 emigrants landed in Quebec, and 9,700 at St. John's,

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two-thirds of whom were Irish: and that as compared with the previous year, the increase had been 29 per cent—the total number of emigrants was 110,000. But of course it is in our own colonies alone that we propose to undertake to give, on landing, the great facilities of being immediately sent to their destination and provided with employment. There is, my Lords, another step in the design of improvement, which has frequently been a subject of consideration in Parliament—I mean that of fisheries. Her Majesty's Government have given particular consideration to the subject of fisheries, and in the course of the last few weeks, availing themselves of the means at their disposal, have established upon the coast of Mayo and the adjoining counties three curing stations, with the view of affording the poor fishermen there the means of curing their fish upon the most advantageous terms. We have reason to believe these stations have been attended with very beneficial effects; and it is now proposed to extend them round the whole of the west and southern coasts, so that upon no coast will the fisherman be obliged, as at present, to carry his fish to a great distance before he can find the means of curing it. Nor will our assistance be confined to the establishment of these curing places. It is proposed, for the specific object of promoting fisheries and encouraging fishermen, to give them the means of procuring boats, the necessary tackle, by lending to the landlords small sums for the specific purpose, these sums to be repaid. No person acquainted with Ireland can hesitate to believe there is a large field for the improvement of fisheries, of which the proprietors have not hitherto availed themselves; and without venturing to say to what extent these measures will become a source of benefit, I may venture to predict that they will be of considerable advantage. Before I sit down, I may state, because I wish to put your Lordships wholly in possession of what is proposed by Her Majesty's Government, that Her Majesty's Government are of opinion, looking at the permanent state of Ireland, at the unfortunate effects which will remain long after the pressure of the present year has passed away, and at the changes which we not only expect, but which we must desire to see in the state of society in that country, there should be some addition made, as far as it can be made with safety, to the means of providing against destitution.
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For years to come, my Lords, I apprehend that in many parts of the country the relief administered in the workhouses will be found unequal to the amount of possible destitution. I am aware that any attempt to provide for this, must be attended with difficulty and danger, against which your Lordships are bound, by every means in your power, to guard. Above all, you know that such a measure, in the nature of what is called out-door relief, would be utterly unsafe: that any general system of out-door relief in that country would be, in other terms, a general confiscation of property there; for the experience of the last few months has demonstrated that the people would have recourse to public charity in preference to making any efforts to obtain their own support, and would use for that purpose unlawful means, which it would be impossible for the local authorities to control. But, my Lords, there are a class of persons for whom, in the event of their not being received into the workhouse in the present state of society, something should be done to secure relief; I mean the aged, the sick, and the infirm. It is proposed that if they cannot be admitted into the workhouse, from its being full, there shall be authority given to the guardians to give them sustenance from the workhouse, in the manner most beneficial to themselves. Connected with this, there must be provision for particular cases of extreme destitution, amounting to the hazard of death; these must be relieved by an officer appointed for that purpose, who should have power to afford relief for the moment, and the guardians should afterwards deal with the case. This subject requires much more attention than it can receive while those other and more pressing measures are under consideration. Nevertheless, I thought it but right to inform your Lordships that such an intention is entertained; the more so, because I believe a great many persons, who might otherwise be disposed to vote the large sums of money, or to make the large advances which I believe the present state of Ireland requires, and which will, so far as respects the future improvement of estates, be repaid, would feel an unwillingness to make those advances unless assured that permanent measures for the improvement of the condition of the poor were devised, and proposed to be carried into effect. Advances have been made to a large extent, and there will be a supplemental advance in the shape of

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the rate for relieving present destitution to the extent of one-half. There is undoubtedly great pressure, not only upon the poor, but upon every class in Ireland, at the present moment; and, contemplating the further pressure during the change which is about to take place, it appears perfectly impossible to call at once, or at any time, for the repayment of the whole of the large advances already made; and it is proposed to relieve the parties from the repayment of half the moneys so advanced, and to provide that the instalments for the repayment of the other half shall be extended in its commencement from the next spring assizes, and shall not begin till the next summer assizes. I believe that, with relief to that extent, and with the other measures which will be provided, we may anticipate the co-operation of the proprietors, and that ultimately the public will reap the benefit in the easier repayment of the difference, and in what is far more important, promoting the prosperity and the welfare of the country. There is one more measure which I may now refer to, as having been much called for by the proprietors of Ireland, to which it does not appear to me any possible objection can be made. Your Lordships are aware that, in a great many settlements that exist in this country, and possibly in Ireland, there is a power of selling for the purpose of discharging mortgages and incumbrances. It is not an uncommon case, but it is not to be found in all settlements. It has been very much pressed upon the consideration of Her Majesty's Government, to enable parties who have mortgages on their estates to sell their property for the purpose of extinguishing the mortgage. To this request we are prepared to assent; and I hope that Parliament will also accede to a power to enable persons having mortgages or incumbrances on their estates to sell a portion for the purpose of extinguishing the mortgages, and relieving themselves from an incubus which, in the present state of Ireland, creates a great check upon the exertions which the proprietors of Ireland have made for relieving the wants of their neighbours, and improving the condition of the land. This is the last of the measures, of the scope and character of which I am desirous of putting your Lordships into early possession. No person can feel more deeply than I do, that, whatever confidence I may have of the abatement of many of these evils, whatever may be my confidence in the
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ultimate effect of many of the measures I have enumerated, I can only look with anxiety to the efforts of the proprietors in that country. The Government cannot, for the relief and for the restoration of that country, make themselves the principals; they may indeed show the greatest anxiety, but it is only through the power of the proprietors that any hope of future prosperity can be entertained. The nation can assist the suffering and the afflicted; but it must be to the vigour of their own constitution, and the vitality of their own body, that they must look for permanent success and for permanent relief. The arm may be extended to support the tree which is bending its head to the temporary blast; but it is only to the vigour in the roots of the tree, and to the vitality which it has in itself, that we must look for its permanent restoration, aided for a time by the efforts of a united kingdom; and if we only find a corresponding feeling established elsewhere — if there be a vigorous following up of every means which will be now afforded for adding to the number of labourers, for the employment of labourers, and for creating a race of independent labourers, which hardly now exist in many parts of that country—we shall insure the improvement of the people; and I entertain a sanguine hope, without dissembling the rude and the severe trial through which they must pass, that we shall see an improved state of society, and the establishment of peace and prosperity in that country. It will be my duty to answer any questions which may arise upon these measures. I have candidly explained them; and I trust that in a spirit of patriotism and of unanimity, as far as can be done, your Lordships will turn your minds to these various, important, and, in their nature, most urgent measures. The noble Marquess concluded by moving—
"That there be laid before this House Copies of Correspondence or Extracts from Correspondence with the Board of Works, relating to Distress in Ireland; and also Copies of Correspondence or Extracts from Correspondence with the Commissariat Department, relating to Distress in Ireland."
LORD STANLEY: It is not my intention to interpose between the statements of the noble Marquess and your Lordships' attention for more than a very few moments. After listening to the very able and clear speech of my noble Friend, I adhere even more strongly than I did before to the opinion which I have previously ventured

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to express—that any attempt to discuss in detail the great and extensive measures now submitted for your Lordships' consideration by Her Majesty's Government, would not only be premature upon the part of your Lordships' House, but that those who, for the first time, hear a large and an extensive plan, composed of various parts, bearing upon each other, and combined with each other for general effect—those, I say, who, for the first time, hear such a plan, must be utterly unable to discuss the merits of the plan as a whole, or to consider in what manner each and every one of the measures may bear upon the others, and upon the general state of society in Ireland. Therefore, my Lords, I do not pretend to enter upon the discussion of all, or any, of those important questions which have been submitted by the noble Marquess. I think, my Lords, the course pursued by Her Majesty's Government—I mean with regard to the manner in which these questions have been submitted to Parliament—is at once a fair and a proper course; they were fully and impartially stated, and in a manner to afford opportunities for such suggestions — offered, I trust, in no unfriendly spirit—as in the course of this discussion may occur to any of your Lordships, and more especially such as those noble Lords who are cognizant of the affairs of Ireland may bring practically to bear upon the subject; and I am certain that there is no Member of your Lordships' House, or of the other House of Parliament, who will not fully appreciate the extent and the magnitude of the calamity that has been so ably and so powerfully described by the noble Marquess in the commencement of his speech, and in which magnitude of the case with which we have to deal rests not only a justification, but a prominent reason, for sinking in the consideration of this question all idea of party strife; so that we shall, one and all, look to the effect which measures of the kind proposed may have on the state of society in Ireland, and on the one object, and the one object alone, that should first engross all our attention—that of devising for the grievous results of that calamity, as far as may be, a present remedy, and of preventing for the future the dangers with which Ireland is threatened on account of it; and at the same time of restoring to a better state the condition of the people of that country. My Lords, I confess—although I do not desire to refer to what has been done already—I cannot
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avoid feeling that the noble Marquess, in the statement which he has just made, has candidly, and most fully, and most unsparingly, exposed the abuses that have attended the interference of Parliament last Session in this matter—I mean the abuses that have attended the practical application of the Labour-rate Act of last Session—an Act which, as the noble Marquess truly said, has had the effect of withdrawing a great portion of the labouring population of Ireland from profitable occupation, to place them, not merely on unprofitable, but, in many cases, on mischievous work; they have been withdrawn, by the offer of an easy and unlaborious kind of employment, from the laborious description of labour in which they had been heretofore engaged; and this of itself would be almost sufficient condemnation of the measure; but its evil effects have been heightened by the fact that it has been necessary, in order, not to prevent—for that the noble Marquess admitted would be impossible—but to palliate the abuses to which this state of things led—it was necessary to have an establishment of somewhere about eight or nine or ten thousand Government functionaries, nominally to superintend the employment of the people, but who in reality afforded no efficient supervision; and in many cases, I fear, had made away with the money entrusted to them, and employed that money, not to the best advantage, most undoubtedly, but in many cases for their own individual benefit.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, no such circumstance had reached the knowledge of Her Majesty's Government.
LORD STANLEY: I rejoice to hear that the circumstance which I mention has not occurred; but I beg to say that I received a letter the other day from a gentleman in Ireland, in which he stated that under the Act of last year, they were very actively employed in doing mischief on useless roads, under the superintendence of Government employés, and at a heavy expense; and that there occurred not unfrequently the disappearance of pay-clerks, treasurers, and other public officers. But I do not intend to enumerate the abuses that have taken place under that Act, because they have been amply admitted by the noble Marquess; and for my part, I fully admit with him that the sooner these enormous abuses come to an end, and more especially as far as the return of the people to their original and regular employment is concerned, the better it will be for the

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prospects of the country. I perfectly concur with him in feeling that the difficulties and dangers arising under the present system, are for the present moment comparatively as nothing when we look to the probable effects that are likely to accrue from the abandonment of the cultivation of the soil; but, at the same time, I must admit that I do not take the same view of the extent to which this evil has already gone, which has been taken by some noble Lords. A noble Lord the other day talked of the latest period for sowing oats being the commencement of February. That is certainly new information to me, because I conceived that, in Ireland especially, the latter end of March, and from that down to the end of April, and even to a later period, was the period for sowing that crop. It must appear to one not acquainted with Ireland, who finds that none of the crop has been sown as yet, that agricultural labour was very backward and remiss at this period of the year; but noble Lords should not compare Ireland with England in this particular, because in Ireland the greater portion of the corn is spring corn, and not autumn corn as in this country; and in Ireland the greater part of the cultivation of the land is not expected to take place now, but rather in March and April and down to the end of May, these latter being the months when employment in agricultural works should principally take place. I took the liberty to express a strong opinion the other day, that Her Majesty's Government would have done better if they had sacrificed their adherence to the principles of political economy by furnishing corn in the more distressed districts; but what I then stated, the noble Marquess has now confirmed. He says that the question was not a question of money, but a question of food—that there was not food available in many districts of the country, even if money had been forthcoming—that ordinary speculation and enterprise had failed to reach some remote districts—and that where corn and provisions had been collected in these districts, many of which were fifteen or twenty miles from any large markets, they were in the hands of some petty speculators, by whom the corn of the country had been bought up, and who had been making exorbitant profits by the sale. Now, with all respect for the principles of political economy, that is a description of persons with whom, in my judgment, Her Majesty's Government ought not to have altogether abstained
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from interfering. What I took the liberty of suggesting the other day was this, that in those districts in which ordinary traffic does not exist, there should have been depôts of provisions established by the Government, which, from the conviction that would go abroad, that in them provisions would be sold at rates not lower than a proper investment of capital would require, would, in my firm judgment, have had the effect of drawing forth stores that are now hoarded up, not for the purpose of extravagant consumption, but for the purpose of bringing into the market supplies that can be afforded to be brought in; but which are now withheld, not for remunerative profits, but in the expectation of famine prices. I was told, that this course was not considered to be consistent with the principles of free trade which Her Majesty's Government took upon themselves to adopt. I did not concur in the sufficiency of that answer; but I concluded that the view taken by Her Majesty's Government had been acted upon by them. To-night, however, to my great astonishment, the noble Marquess comes down, and instead of defending the non-interference system, he said the Government had been pursuing, and intended to pursue, a system of interference fully to the extent which I had ventured to express an opinion that they ought to have done. The noble Marquess tells us that they have established depôts in different parts of the country where they had thought them necessary; that they had established 950 local committees; and that to every one of these committees they had afforded assistance. [The Marquess of LANSDOWNE: Not in food.] The noble Marquess says, the relief was not given in food, but in the means of purchasing food; but I confess, it appears to me, that, in places where the difficulty to be met did not consist so much in the want of money as in the want of food, it is a question whether it would not have been better to send what was not there, namely, food, and that a supply of provisions would have been a more beneficial and economical mode of relieving the distress, than furnishing grants of money where money was not of use. But then, again, the noble Marquess, and my noble Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty, in answer to a noble Earl, a noble Friend of mine on this side of the House, stated, that they had deliberately considered the question aye or no, whether they should employ Her Majesty's ships of war in carrying provisions

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to the distressed parts of Ireland, and that they had come to the decision that it was unnecessary to do so, because there was abundance of tonnage to be got without employing Her Majesty's ships of war. To my mind that answer seemed inconsistent with the other measure to which your Lordships unanimously gave your assent this evening, namely, the Bill for suspending the navigation laws. But, from the answer given by the noble Marquess to-night, it appears that Her Majesty's ships of war and steamers have been, and are, actually employed in carrying provisions from port to port, and thus interfering, undoubtedly, with the ordinary course of trade—introducing a system of interference on the part of the Government with the ordinary course of commerce, which, no doubt, has worked beneficially, but which is clearly contrary to that principle of non-interference which, as I said before, I took the liberty of stating the other night Her Majesty's Government had, in my judgment, carried to an undue extent. I will not, as I have already stated, enter at present into a consideration of any of the great questions to which, as permanent measures, the noble Marquess adverted, as likely to be brought forward by Her Majesty's Government. The noble Marquess does not lay any great stress, as far as I can perceive, on the practical co-operation of the landlords; and it appears, that, though Her Majesty's Government did not feel it to be their duty to interfere with private enterprise, they are to become, in themselves, purchasers of land in Ireland, for the purpose of again selling it or letting it to other persons on lease, with the intention further of controlling the terms on which these leases are to be permitted. To every degree, and in every district, they are about taking on themselves the duties of landowners on the one hand, and of land speculators on the other. As to emigration, I entirely concur with the noble Marquess in thinking that it is exceedingly difficult to introduce any plan of extensive emigration, by aid given in this country, which would have any practical or tangible effect on the extent of the population of Ireland. I shall not enter into that question, at present, very largely, though it is one that I have very often and very extensively considered, as it was my duty to do. I am aware of the advantages attending the advancement of small sums to persons after arriving in Canada, for the purpose of assisting them to proceed to the spot which
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they wished to occupy; but I must remind the noble Marquess, that the degree of success attending the measure, has arisen from this, namely, that the sum applicable for such purposes was known to be of limited amount; and that it was never to be employed except in case of known and absolute destitution; and, even then, that it was to be applied only for the purpose of assisting them in going to join their friends, whom they had made previous arrangements for reaching before leaving their own country. But from the moment that it becomes known that any individuals arriving in the colony shall have a claim upon the public purse, from that moment, I fear, the claims will be increased enormously; and that no person, or, at least, hardly any person, will go out on their own resources. I am afraid that the extent to which increased emigration will be carried on under this system, if it be adopted, will be by no means commensurate with the expense which we shall have to pay for it. Again, with regard to the poor law and to the fisheries, both most extensive questions, I will also abstain from offering any opinion at present; but, I believe, that of all the measures enumerated by the noble Marquess, that which is likely to be an efficient and working measure is the last to which he referred, and on which he laid much less stress than on the others—I mean that by which it is proposed to give facilities to landed proprietors in Ireland to relieve their estates by the sale of such portion of their lands as may be necessary to clear off incumbrances upon them. I believe that the object sought to be effected by this measure is one of the utmost importance, because the effect will be not only to relieve existing calls on landlords in Ireland, but to produce a result which must be admitted to be the most important for Ireland at the present moment—namely, the drawing of a greater amount of capital into Ireland, by bringing upon large properties two unincumbered proprietors, instead of one proprietor so incumbered as to render him unable to discharge his duties on half, still less on the whole, of his property. There is one of the proposed measures on which I think the noble Marquess has, on the other hand, laid more stress than I think it is fairly entitled to. He appears to expect a very great and almost an immediate effect to be produced by the measure under which money is to be offered to landlords for improvements at 3½ per cent. I do not at all doubt but that

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if such an offer were made to the landlords of England—that if the landlords of this country were offered advances of money at lower rates, whatever they might be, than they were able to command on their own individual security in the money market—it would be very likely to be found a valuable boon; but there are circumstances which I think ought to be borne in mind, which I fear place Irish landlords not in the same position as the English landlords, as I took the liberty of stating to your Lordships the other day. If a landlord in England lays out money in the improvement of his land, whether that land be in the possession of tenants at will, or tenants holding under lease, he is in the first place perfectly certain of the co-operation of the tenants, and he feels no difficulty in obtaining from them an increase of rent corresponding to the amount of money laid out in improvements; or else if the tenant at will refuses to pay such increase, the landlord would find no difficulty in obtaining the support of public opinion in getting rid of the unimproving tenant, for the purpose of substituting an improving tenant in his place. That, however, is not the case in Ireland; and the landlord in that country who is induced to borrow money from the Government for the improvement of his estate, will, I fear, find, in too many cases, no part of his estate so much under his own control as to enable him beneficially to apply the money with a prospect of recovering the interest of it in the shape of an increased rent. I do not refer merely to cases where the tenants hold under leases, but where they are nominally tenants at will; and who, if they are offered the money, or to have the work done for them on the condition of paying an increased rent, will tell the landlord that they beg to decline the offer—that they are quite willing to have the work done for them, but on this condition, that as long as they choose to remain on the land, remain they shall, and that as to paying more rent, they will not. I speak from experience. I know that such is the state of things in which some landlords, who are most desirous of giving assistance to their tenants, are placed. On these grounds, therefore, I fear that there is reason to think that we should not entertain over-sanguine expectations of the results of improvements to be effected under the measure proposed by Her Majesty's Government. I have not heard, in the Government plan, any reference made to one circumstance that ought to be borne
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in mind in every measure intended to advance the improvement of landed estates in Ireland—I mean the cases in which lands are held under old leases by occupiers under a middle-man, where, in point of fact, the owner of the soil is deriving little or no benefit at present from his property, and where any improvement to be effected would not go to the benefit of the head landlord, but of the middle-man, though on the head landlord, as it appears to me, will rest the responsibility of maintaining and supporting the poor peasantry belonging to the estate, and brought there against his will by the promise of exorbitant rents to the middle-man. Your Lordships may say that this is a state of things resulting from improvidence. It is so; but it is of very old date. I am myself labouring under such a state of things, having property under leases granted as long ago as the year 1780; and during the whole of the time that has since elapsed, the middle-man having the original lease has been stocking the estate with a race of paupers. It might be said that a provision against sub-letting might have been made in the lease; but in point of fact, nothing is so difficult as to carry into operation effectually any provision against this practice; and as an instance that such is the case, I will mention a case that has occurred to myself. A tenant of mine was desirous of handing over a farm to another person. I demurred; and on reference to his lease, it was found that there was a positive prohibition against assigning the farm. I took the opinion of counsel on the matter; and on the examination of the lease these were the words contained in it: "The tenant is debarred from selling, alienating, assigning, or otherwise than by will disposing of his farm." Now, it was clearly the intention to prevent the tenant from parting with his farm; but it was the opinion of the counsel that there was nothing in the lease to hinder the tenant from cutting up the whole farm and sub-letting it to paupers, without any possibility of interference on my part. Under these circumstances, I need hardly say, that I made no further objection to the highly respectable man to whom the tenant wished to dispose of his farm. But I only mention this to show the exceeding difficulty of guarding against dangers which in England it would be very easy to remedy—of providing against having a population on your property over whom you have no control, and

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yet the whole of whose maintenance is thrown upon you. I hope Her Majesty's Government, in considering the means to be adopted in placing additional burdens on Irish property, for the purpose of improving that property, will take into consideration what portion ought to fall, not only on the head landlord, but on those who for a very considerable time will derive the whole benefit accruing from such improvements. One more caution I wish to impress upon the Government. It being agreed that one object of all plans for the amelioration of Ireland is the introduction of fresh capital into the country; and another object, that the people should be diverted from the system of petty holdings, with a view of raising up a set of men who should be dependent on wages entirely, and not accidentally and occasionally, for their permanent subsistence; and another object, that assistance should be given to the landlords to lay out capital on the land: I agree with the noble Marquess that we ought to do what we can through the present proprietors, and by encouraging and sustaining them, by advances if you please, to improve the land; but I think it ought to be the object of the Government to facilitate the introduction of additional capital on sufficient security, namely, by advances to such bodies as may be enabled to devote it to the employment of the people. I speak of railway companies; and, looking to the present state of Ireland, and to the difficulties attending investments in Ireland, from the political insecurity of the country, I think that advances ought to be made by the Government on indisputable security, to these companies. There is no more legitimate mode of conveying the Government assistance to that country; for it would be a measure which, in the first place, will assist and facilitate the introduction into Ireland of large masses of private capital which would be expended in such undertakings only of which the proprietors entertained good hopes that they would prove reproductive; and in the next, these companies would have the power of supervising and overlooking the expenditure of the capital entrusted to them in a manner which no Government employés could effect, as the latter would not, as the others would, be desirous of obtaining the most work possible for their money. I must say I think this plan is practicable, and if practicable that it is desirable for the Government to take it into their consideration with a view to find out whether they
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could not beneficially offer loans to such railway companies as had already been sanctioned by Parliament, as well as to such as might be hereafter sanctioned by the Government Board for the supervision of railways. I believe that a measure of this kind—not proposed for the purpose of adding to the capital of those companies, but for the purpose of calling more immediately into effect that capital, and bringing it sooner to bear upon the condition of the country and the increase of the means of employment, and in order to encourage those companies to employ a greater amount of labour than otherwise they would employ—I believe that such a measure would tend greatly to diminish the temporary difficulties of Ireland, and would not ultimately be attended with any loss to this country. I do not pretend, on the occasion of bringing forward those measures, to offer any different plan to that of the Government; but to this I would call their attention, as being one to which they might most wisely and beneficially look for the introduction of additional capital into Ireland—and capital which would furnish additional employment—which would be most important, particularly at this time, when they were withdrawing the present means of employment; and which would not have the effect of taking the people from agricultural employment, on the ground of the work being either less laborious or better paid. I will not go further into the question. I think that the noble Marquess has taken the most beneficial course in the manner in which he has stated the whole plan of the Government; and I can, I think, assure him that when these measures come to be discussed they will be received with no disposition to find captious objections, but with every desire to give them a full and fair consideration.
LORD BROUGHAMhoped the noble Marquess would state what number of millions sterling he expected would be wanted for this service, for the soup kitchens namely, the out-door relief, the fisheries, the loans for all parts of the plan, in short, except what he thought by far the best part of it, namely, for setting free settled estates in Ireland. He wished to know the amount of the loan that it would be necessary for the Government to contract, in order to meet this vast expenditure, and also how they proposed to furnish the interest of it, and whether that interest was to be paid by the people of this

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country by an increase of the taxes already bestowed on them by their Government, and whether the property tax was to be increased? He had heard that morning an estimate, stating the amount that would be required at 15,000,000 l. sterling. He quite agreed with the noble Marquess, that the Government ought not to be corn dealers or corn speculators, or corn millers, or corn manufacturers; but then he went further than the Government, and said they ought not to be loan contractors nor lenders of money. If in any capacity a Government was more disagreeable to the people than another, it was as a creditor. Government was generally a debtor, as most people knew, but he knew what Government being a creditor meant; it generally ended in an extent in the Exchequer. Now, the people of this country were to raise all this money to lend again, but they had not got it themselves; they must go to the Stock Exchange to their brother lenders, to the Jews, their rival profession; and whether the Irish landlords would pay back the loan he knew not, but this he knew, that we must pay it. How to pay it was then the question. Indirect taxation had reached its limit; directly as more was put on in one department, the revenue fell off in another. Nothing but direct taxation was left. It was now admitted that the Labour-rate Act had failed, and worse than failed, for it had proved to be a negative quantity, decidedly injurious and perfectly mischievous. He had heard, two days ago, the case of a gentleman who, when he was assessed for the improvement of a road which he had leading from the high road to his house, and wholly within his own grounds, asked what was the amount at which he had been assessed; and on being told 180 l. immediately wrote a check for the money, preferring to get rid of the matter in that way rather than to have his road improved. The Labour-rate Act of last Session was totally inadequate to the purposes for which it was passed, and excessively mischievous, for under it there were employed, in order to superintend some 300,000 labourers, 10,000 Government servants, all more or less engaged in the act of jobbing.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: Four hundred thousand.
LORD BROUGHAM: No, no. 10,000 men were employed superintending 300,000 labourers.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEbegged to assure the noble Lord that he was misinformed. There were 400,000 persons
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employed. The noble Lord should recollect that the numbers had increased since the returns to which he had alluded had been made.
LORD BROUGHAMadmitted that they might have increased. Of course they had increased, and of course they were still increasing from day to day. But, at all events, they were employing one functionary to superintend every thirty or forty labourers—to superintend the labour of men who were engaged improving (as was called) the property of men who would willingly pay large sums to have those improvements left undone. The Labour-rate Act had worked very mischievously. But they should take into account that numberless persons must be employed to prevent abuses under the plan for granting loans, in order to avoid the danger of fraud. That would form a new staff in addition to the 10,000 before employed by Government; and the Government, besides, was to become a land jobber as well as a money jobber. Another evil consequence would arise out of the land jobbing part of the system, which was, that when the Government, with its long purse, would come into the market, the lands would rise in value, unless, indeed, they were prepared to fix a maximum price beyond which they would not go. They would make the same havoc with the land as they had made with the roads. And they would be obliged to have a staff of bailiffs soon, as they had a staff of overseers now. It had been too much the fashion to quote as the happiest condition of a country the time
"When every rood of land maintained its man."
But it was the curse of Ireland that every half rood of ground had been maintaining its man. With regard to the question of the poor law, he should like to see extended to Ireland a good and efficient poor law—not the abused poor law of England, for against the introduction of that he had fought the battle night after night in that House, even when it was attempted to introduce it in a modified system. To introduce or allow to be introduced into Ireland the present system of the English poor law, would be more injurious to the sister kingdom than to any other country under the sun. Let their Lordships look to the dreadful consequences of the present condition of the poor law in those countries. Let them look at the flood of Irish destitution poured in upon some of the communities of England. What was the condition of Liverpool?

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Within five days there were 2,056 women and 897 children landed there from Ireland, and the total number of paupers from Ireland landed there during those five days was 5,200 odd; not, he should beg to observe, brought over, as a noble Friend of his had stated the other night, as a speculation to obtain freights for the vessels, but as seekers for relief from the operation of the English poor law, for one of the vessels that brought some of those poor persons had 178 l. of freight on board. One vessel from Sligo brought over and landed in one day 750 paupers. The consequence had been most lamentable to Liverpool, and they were groaning under the infliction in that once flourishing town. By a return which he (Lord Brougham) had received on Friday, it appeared that on Monday last 18,095 Irish paupers were relieved by the poor-law officers of Liverpool, in addition to the poor of the town. On Tuesday there were 19,200 and odd. On Wednesday there were 19,400 odd; and on Thursday last, the day before his correspondent, who was an official person, addressing him (Lord Brougham) in his official capacity, had made the communication to him, there were 22,095 Irish paupers, in addition to the permanent paupers of Liverpool, who received relief. The consequences were alarming in another point of view, besides the present hardship to the locality. People feared that the present would form no exception to the rule, that pestilence follows in the wake of famine. He could not speak in terms of too much warmth regarding the exertions used by the poor-law guardians of Liverpool. But that town was not the only sufferer. Glasgow was represented as being in a still worse condition. When their Lordships looked at these facts, and weighed their consequences, they would agree that some regulation was required, and should be made, for the purpose of throwing the Irish poor upon the resources of Ireland for support, so as to prevent the abuses of the English poor law. He began to bringing mind most reluctantly to the belief that the mischief should be met. But it must not be "Ireland for the Irish," whilst there was anything to be fed upon, and "England for the Irish," when there was none—that would be burning the candles on both ends. No, no, gentlemen should make their election. They could not have it both ways. He had the deepest sympathy for the suffering, for the destitute poor; but there was one class of persons
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for whom he had no sympathy. They were the place-hunters—the staff inspectors, the supervisors, the public work inspectors, the private work inspectors, the state farmers, and all the numberless host of well-paid and willing functionaries, whose private profits rose up to their imagination the moment those great public measures were spoken of. They were about to apply millions to the relief of the sister kingdom. If the interest of the money to be raised was to be paid by additional taxation, he hoped that the sister kingdom would have some regard to her sister England, and that the property tax, the assessed taxes, and the income tax, would be no longer for the English only. He did not approve, either, of the system of exempting the man of 140 l. a year from the income-tax. It was quite absurd to put forward the smallness of income or of property as a rule for exemption from taxation. It was as if the man who had an income of only 140 l. a year should not pay for its protection at least in the same ratio as the man of thousands. He hoped that the distinction would never be taken again. He hoped that the line of exemption from taxation would not be drawn down the middle of the British Channel, or at an income of 150 l. per annum. As to the measures proposed, the more distinct they kept the temporary ones from those that were intended to be permanent, the better. As to the permanent measures, they need not be brought forward with the same haste as the temporary, which were demanded to meet the pressing exigencies of the occasion. There was no need for pressing forward the permanent measures this year. But the second caution he should give them was, that they should take care and not make the effects of some of their temporary measures permanent by inducing, through them, bad habits that would outlive the time of their adoption. They should take care not to induce a demoralising principle amongst the landlords of Ireland; but, by taking good security for the money advanced, and so far ensuring its repayment, it was to be hoped that those landlords, upon freeing their property from the mortgages about to be raised upon them, would not mortgage them again. There was one mode of improving the condition of the Irish people which he thought deserved most serious attention. He meant the fisheries. When they recollected that on the west coast of Ireland there was, wasted and unprofitable, ready to be brought into immediate use an unlimited supply of food,

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infinitely more nutritious than the potato; he should say that a better mode of exertion could not be made, nor could a better mode of outlay for the money about to be advanced be pointed out, than the giving assistance to the fishermen. The mode in which they could be aided more than by any other method would be, besides lending to them nets and tackle, by sending amongst them skilful fishermen, whose example might be useful. He had seen in the Mediterranean examples of the incapacity of some of the people on the coast to take advantage of the abundance of fish in their vicinity; but the moment the Genoese fishermen made their appearance amongst them, the supplies to the markets became abundant, and they swarmed with the finest fish. It was the superior skill of the Genoese that caused the difference; and he feared that there was a want of skill amongst the fishermen on the western coast of Ireland in the modes of taking fish, and an ignorance equal to that of those unskilful Mediterranean fishermen of whom he had before spoken. He should, therefore, advocate the sending amongst them of some skilful men who might induce them to improve their mode of fishing; he did not mean fishing for the purpose of curing or salting, but merely for the purpose of supplying fresh fish to the markets. Before sitting down he would beg to recall their Lordships' attention to the great point which should form the most prominent feature of their deliberations at present—the want of food. It was food that the Irish people wanted most of all immediately. The effects of the measures proposed for their future benefit would not be visible for a year or more at the nearest, but in the meantime they should be supplied with food. They were dying by thousands. They were dying daily, and food should be supplied for them. There was one measure which he recollected had been adopted in the year 1800, when there was severe distress and famine. It was a solemn league and covenant entered into amongst all consumers of bread, fish, flesh and vegetables to consume as little bread as possible. He perfectly recollected when the loaf used to be brought to the table, but no one was allowed to cut it but the master of the house, who cut a very small portion for each individual.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEobserved in a low voice across the Table, that the people had then potatoes in abundance.
LORD BROUGHAMadmitted it, but still he thought it possible for such another league to be formed, and a bond entered into that consumers of fish and flesh should use as little bread and potatoes as possible, and no ornamental dishes of pastry whatsoever during the continuance of the distress; for ornamental pastry wasted a large quantity of flour that was needed for bread for the poor. He was quite sure that were such an agreement entered into, all the money given by them in subscriptions would do little, compared with the good that would arise out of it. The price of bread would be, he would not say lowered, because that was scarcely to be expected, but it would be kept from rising higher than it was at present. It would, by putting the wealthier classes upon short allowance, avert the coming of famine. There was another part of the agreement entered into in the year 1800, which was, that none but stale bread should be used. The agreement was, that no bread should be used under any circumstances until twenty-four hours after it had been baked. Very great advantage had been derived from the plan, and he begged leave strongly to recommend its adoption. In conclusion, he begged again to put the question with which he had commenced to his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lansdowne), whether he had made any calculation as to the amount of supplies which would be required for the purpose of carrying into effect the measures proposed for the relief of Ireland? His noble Friend had, probably, no means of ascertaining the fact, and, in that case, he, of course, did not wish to press it unnecessarily.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that it was impossible to say how much might be required.
The EARL of DESART(who was very imperfectly heard) agreed with the noble Lord near him (Lord Stanley) that it was impossible to give any decided opinion respecting the measures after so brief an attention paid to them. He rose merely to state to their Lordships some facts, the truth of which, and the painful scenes passing in his country, he could vouch. If he spoke of some of the measures of the Government with any reprehension, he did so with regret; at the same time, he must express his sense of the evils of some of these measures, without denying the anxiety of the Government to relieve the present condition of the Irish. When the calamity was first heard of (in August)—

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when it was known that the food of three millions of the Irish people was totally destroyed, some provision should have been made by the Government to relieve their distress. He was far from saying that the Government should have ransacked the world for provisions, or that the Government should have turned merchant; but he was prepared to say that, by a cautious and prudent mode of proceeding, they should have collected grain, and established depôts of food where scarcity was most apprehended and there were no stores. If this had been done, he should not have had to read to their Lordships a letter from Skibbereen—in one of the most distressed parts of Ireland—of a most painful character. The letter was from a noble friend of his, who had taken upon himself to ascertain the perfect truth of the statements. [The noble Earl read the letter, which drew a lamentable picture of the heartrending scenes at Skibbereen, arising from want of food, scarcity of employment, lowness of wages (8d. a day), disease, and wretched lodging of the people.] No one would believe the extent of the horrors at this place who did not see them, yet they could be verified upon oath; and he did think that the Government of a country like this, with such resources at its command, ought to have made some provision for arresting such a calamity. The state of the people with regard to labour was lamentable. There were, at the lowest, 350,000 families who had been used to drag on a sort of scrambling existence almost without money, and without being a burden to the landlords. They lived in this manner: each family scraped as much manure as they could, sufficient to manure one or two roods of land, for which they paid no rent, and they planted this small piece of land with potatoes enough to support the family during the winter. Meantime, they contrived to scrape together money sufficient to buy a pig, which they fed with the refuse potatoes. Thus they went on from year to year, dragging a miserable existence. But this year all their potatoes were cut off, and 350,000 families, making at an average of six persons to each family, 2,100,000 persons, were left destitute. Reckoning the loss of these 350,000 families at 20 l. each, the loss would be 7,000,000 l., which was thrown upon the small landlords. Now, what was the condition of the landlords? With resources diminished after the calamity of the preceding year, they were called on to meet
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this crisis, to bear this enormous additional burden. They would have to support not only their usual amount of labourers, but also many of the small farmers, who would act as a double drain—diminishing by nonpayment of the rent the very incomes taxed for their support. This was manifestly enough to exhaust their resources, and they therefore had to look for fresh means to enable them to meet this enormous charge of 7,000,000 l. on the rental of a country valued at from 12,000,000 l. to 13,000,000 l. For this purpose they turned their attention to any facilities that might be offered them for borrowing money for useful improvements, affording a fair prospect of providing a fund for its repayment. Their efforts were frustrated. The provisions of the Million Act were declared not to apply to life interest. Other Acts were calculated only for extensive works, such as deepening rivers and streams, which could not be carried on at this season, and they were ultimately compelled to have recourse to public works, useless and ruinous as they were. There was indeed an attempt made to mend the Act by the famous letter of Mr. Labouchere. This came out late in October—presentments were made under its provisions throughout the country in the beginning of November; but a circular from the Board of Works published in December (why the delay?) announced that all these presentments were informal. Fresh sessions were called, and other presentments made, many of which were now being carried out, though the expenses of the staff, and in many cases the inefficient way in which the work was carried on, seemed likely to cat up all the profits. This measure, however, worked very unequally and injuriously. Suppose A and B were joint proprietors of an estate, and a baronial assessment was made for 1,000 l.; A took 500 l., but B said, "No, I will have nothing to do with the other 500 l;" A would have to pay on 500 l. and 250 l. of the other 500 l. These difficulties made this letter to a great degree inoperative, and insufficient to supersede the unproductive system of road-making. The public works there still proceeded, and frightful were the mischiefs they occasioned. They tended to paralyse labour, ruin the fisheries, and demoralize the people. He had known instances of fishermen drawing up their boats upon the beach, and declaring that labour on the roads was more profitable. Farmers found it advantageous to discourage labour on

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their land, and to send the people to their works, and in some instances they positively refused to employ labourers: there was a kind of struggle for English money. Let not their Lordships think for a moment that he asked them to give money to Ireland. England ought to be generous; but, anyhow, Ireland should be honest. As far as they could, the landlords of Ireland ought to make repayment; but if England, regardless of their protection, heedless of their remonstrances, did, with injudicious liberality, make advances of money, and applied it to useless works, England owed them a fair reparation. Looking from the past to the present and the future, the landlords were ready to co-operate with the Government; and he felt that the Government were anxious on their part to redeem Ireland from its social misery, and he was gratified to see Englishmen turning their attention to the social condition of Ireland. The proposed measures would go to the root of many of the ills of that country. He thought altogether they were calculated to do a great deal of good. All the landlords asked was that they should be protected, not from their fair share of the burden, but from being utterly swamped by paupers, and ruined by useless labour. If the landlords were ruined, the property would not be confiscated, but annihilated; and Ireland, deprived of her natural proprietors, and covered with a race of squatters, would be more miserable than she was at present. "As for squatting," (continued the noble Lord,) "I consider it one of the very greatest evils of Ireland, and no Englishman can appreciate the difficulties of its prevention. If in estates well cultivated, and immediately under the landlord's eye, it requires the utmost vigilance, as it does, to prevent divisions of land, and erection of new houses; to do so becomes next to impossible in the more remote and wilder districts where such close supervision is impossible. I will mention a plan merely as a suggestion—that in cases where a constable shall see the commencement of one of the mud hovels usually erected by this class of people, he shall be empowered to demand a certificate, showing permission on the part of the landlord or agent, and on failure of this to stop the work. Before concluding, I wish to say one word on an expression which fell from the noble Lord opposite, concerning the proposed extension of the poor law—I mean out-door relief. Whatever the Government
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do, let them beware of offering a bribe to unprofitable idleness among a people too willing to avail themselves of it." The noble Lord concluded by thanking their Lordships for the hearing they had given him; it was one of the many proofs he had seen that night, that they were really anxious to grapple with the evils of Ireland; that they considered the Irish question in the light of a national question; and that England must suffer in the suffering and degradation of the people of Ireland.
The EARL of DEVONsaid, that, on hearing the observations of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham), he thought that his noble and learned Friend was totally forgetful of many things that had passed under his own eye, and with his own concurrence. Any person hearing his noble and learned Friend, and not knowing anything of the previous legislation for Ireland, would imagine that Her Majesty's Ministers were for the first time proposing an unheard-of remedy for the assistance of Ireland. But what were the circumstances under which the assistance was now proposed? As his noble Friend (Lord Desart), who justly spoke the feelings of all honest landlords in Ireland, had said, they admitted that the obligation rested upon the land to provide for the people that lived upon the land, and that the landlords were ready and willing to discharge all the duties and obligations incidental to their position. But the difficulty was, that the landlord did not always represent the land; and the question was, how to fulfil this obligation that existed upon the land. In former years, under the Government of Lord Grey, of which his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) was a member, the Board of Public Works was first established. It was then thought desirable to enable the landlords of Ireland to fulfil this obligation to which he had referred, and to advance them money for the purpose, when, in consequence of their position, and of having a limited estate, they could not borrow money themselves. When the first Public Works Act passed, the object was to enable landlords to borrow money for the very purpose for which it was now proposed to extend those loans, viz., for the improvement, the reformation, the embanking, draining, or other permanent improvement of land. That was the principle which the Parliament of that day had adopted at the suggestion of the Government of which his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) was a member.

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He (the Earl of Devon) could only say he thought his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) had shown on this occasion a want of that industry which he generally applied for the purpose of understanding the subject on which he was speaking. He had laid down certain propositions with reference to which they did not much differ; but he had shown an ignorance of the actual circumstances and facts of the case upon which they were called to decide. His noble Friend who had just spoken (the Earl of Desart) had stated to them the situation of a large class of the poorer people of Ireland, and he (the Earl of Devon) need not repeat the statement. It was hardly credible to Englishmen, or to those who did not know the exact position of the different classes occupying land in Ireland—they hardly could understand in what manner the failure of the potato affected all classes in Ireland. In the dealings between the labourer and the farmer, money scarcely ever passed; the potato was the whole means of barter, and the land producing the potatoes. The farmer who was called upon to pay money to his labourers, or not to cultivate his land, would choose the latter alternative; the Irish farmer had, not merely now, but at all times, a great aversion to laying out money in paying labourers: he had not arrived at the knowledge of how remunerative well-paid labour on the land would be to him. He was not now able to pay the labourer in the way he had been accustomed, and, consequently, large masses of people were this year thrown out of employment, who in former years had employment. The farmer himself having sold his crop, would rather place the money in the savings' bank than pay it away in labour, and that might account for the fact, not otherwise very intelligible, of the deposits in those institutions being so very large at the present moment. There were many instances in which the farmer had received the money for his crop, which he had well sold, had placed the money in the savings' banks rather than pay for the labour he wanted, and afterwards had thrown himself on the public works. But much as the Labour-rate Act of last Session had cost himself; abused, and justly, as it might be; he (the Earl of Devon) could not, for one, join in the general outcry that it had been of no use. On the contrary, he believed—passed as it was under peculiar circumstances, and at a moment when some immediate step was
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necessary—that it was of very great use. In speaking on this subject, he could only speak of that which had fallen under his own observation — others of his noble Friends could state what they had seen; he (the Earl of Devon) could only speak of what fell under his own observation. He was not answerable for taking any part in the passing of that Act, for he had gone to Ireland before it was introduced; but he did not find on the records of what passed on the discussion of that Act, that there was any great opposition made to it, or that any person who now perceived so strongly the evils arising from it, had then made any suggestion as to what should be done. At that time what was the position of the Irish landlords, and in what state was the country? A great number of persons required employment. At that time the demand was not so much for food as for employment by which the people might be enabled to buy food. By the Labour-rate Act the landlords were enabled to borrow money, if they pleased, to execute work on their lands; but it was thought that beyond that something further was necessary, and that was employment at some works which individual landlords could not afford to undertake. The works had been called mischievous; but why were presentments for such works made? There was a district with which he was connected, and he did not believe that one hundred perches of useless road had been made in that district, because the individuals at the sessions had taken infinite pains to select the works. He (the Earl of Devon) held in his hand a letter from a most intelligent agent who resided on that property, in which he stated to him that he attributed the tranquillity that existed there very much to the opportunity he had of placing in employment, immediately after the passing of the Labour-rate Act, a very large number of the unemployed population of that district. He (the Earl of Devon) did not think it fair to state so positively as had been stated that the Labour-rate Act had been altogether a useless measure. He was quite confident it was not altogether useless; and he felt that without some measure of that nature at the particular moment, much more disastrous consequences would have ensued. He begged to make one suggestion to the Government. It had been explained, that if one person could take up the whole taxation for productive works which fell upon an electoral division, he might do so,

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and be called upon for nothing further. But these electoral divisions were too large for such purposes, and he would recommend that a smaller electoral division should be taken, and that if two or three persons living in the same townland agreed to bear that portion of the baronial cess which belonged to such townland, then that they should be exempted from further taxation. He happened to know how it was this proposition had at one time been received by Her Majesty's Government with a great deal of distrust. But some gentlemen in Ireland had to answer for it, because the proposition that was addressed by one class of persons to the Government was of a very different nature. The proposition was, that if they employed and paid for the employment of persons resident on their own townlands, that they should be then exempt from further taxation. That was a different thing from what he had mentioned, for that would be a premium to the man who had cleared his land, and who, therefore, would have only a small number to employ. That was not the proposition which he (the Earl of Devon) now made, and to which he hoped Her Majesty's Government would not refuse to assent; and in any future arrangement, when an assessment was (suppose for 10,000 l.) to be laid on a barony, and that 1,000 l. of that should belong to certain three or four townlands, part of that barony, that he, or two or three with him, might take that proportion of the assessment on them, and that then they should not be called upon to pay any more, and that they should apply to the townland the same principle that Mr. Labouchere's letter proposed to apply to the electoral division. It was said that the proposition with respect to the waste lands was one not likely to be accompanied with good results. He (the Earl of Devon) was rather more sanguine. He had some experience on the subject, and he knew that the application of capital to waste lands might be usefully and profitably made. There was a way in which he conceived the process could be better carried on than by the interference of the Government. It was suggested that it was desirable for Government to make loans of money to railway companies; and it might or might not be desirable to do so; but if there were any persons of responsible character willing to risk some of their own capital in the reformation of waste lands, he suggested that assistance should be given to them by the Government,
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on proper security. That would be a more economical and efficient way of laying out money than if the work were undertaken on the part of the Government itself. The great cause now of the distress was the failure of the potato crop; but they took a superficial view of the question who did not look deeper than that. The failure of the potato crop was a great and enormous aggravation of the evils of Ireland; but there was an evil under which, more or less, at all times Ireland had suffered, and that evil was the inadequacy of the employment, or the supply of employment, to the demand. There had been a greater supply of labour than any demand the country could afford. Undoubtedly many of the measures now in contemplation would tend to create a much greater demand for labour; but he doubted much that to the full extent it would effectually meet the evil. As to the question of emigration, he concurred in the propriety of the view taken by Her Majesty's Government. He thought that any attempt to give assistance by advancing money here to take persons out would lead to abuse; but, unquestionably, any assistance they could give in preparing a location for persons when they arrived abroad would be most useful. If assistance were given for emigration in that way, the landlords of Ireland might find the means to make it more like colonisation than emigration—that is, to enable persons of various classes to emigrate together; and persons of different grades and classes of society might go out with the certainty that when they got at the other side of the Atlantic, they would meet in a sphere in which their respective energies might be usefully employed, and where they might obtain that livelihood which they were unable to obtain in their own country. There was great room for exertion on the part of the Irish gentlemen themselves on that subject, and he hoped it would be taken up by them. With respect to the poor law, it might be much better that it was not much discussed while they were suffering under the present pressure. But they must be prepared to have such a poor law as would provide the means of rescuing from want those persons who could not, under any other circumstances, provide for themselves. The law must be plain, and the landlords of Ireland must be prepared to submit to the law; and he (the Earl of Devon), for one, should certainly give his best attention to the details of any measure of the description.

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He could give his testimony to the propriety of the measures, so far as he could understand them, which the noble Marquess had propounded. It was said that all labour had been drawn to public works; but measures were taken to prevent that, which in many instances were successful, namely, the refusal to employ any persons on public works except at task-work. There were some persons who at first were very angry, and determined not to work by task, who afterwards, however, took the task-work. He was not one of those who regarded with so much alarm the non-cultivation of the land up to the present time. His own experience of the country warranted him in saying that in the months of December and January the Irish peasants were almost always totally idle; during those months but very little agricultural labour was attempted. The operations of agriculture were actively carried on during the three months immediately succeeding—February, March, and April; and if during those months the peasantry were to continue this year in a state of inaction as far as the soil was concerned, the consequences would, no doubt, be most disastrous; but as yet there was no cause for alarm. On the whole, he would say, that he was far from taking as gloomy a view of the state of Ireland as some noble Lords were inclined to adopt. He knew the perils and difficulties by which that country was unhappily surrounded; but he was sanguine in the expectation that the Legislature would be able to weather the storm, and that it would hereafter be seen that they had given to the Irish cultivator of land an improved system, the fruit of which would be of great and permanent advantage.
The EARL of RODEN: The proceedings in their Lordships' House would infallibly create the greatest interest in Ireland. Since the opening of the Session, that night had been looked forward to with the deepest anxiety, and as one who felt the most sincere solicitude in everything that affected the welfare of that country, he felt himself in candour called upon to acknowledge how great was the gratification he had experienced in witnessing the anxiety, the industry, and the good intention with which the Government had taken in hand so important and difficult a subject as that which now engaged their attention. All he lamented was, that any combination of circumstances should have prevented the immediate application of relief.
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He did not concur with the noble Earl who had just resumed his seat in the modified views he took of the disadvantages resulting from the Labour-rate Act. He looked upon that measure as a most unfortunate error. Not only had it been inoperative of all good, but it had been positively detrimental and decidedly mischievous, by withdrawing the labour of the peasant population from its legitimate function, the tilling of the land, to works which did not in any important degree promote the convenience of the public. It was not to be supposed that peasants who could earn 2s. a day on the roadside, would undertake in preference agricultural labour at a much lower rate of remuneration; moreover, it was well known to every one conversant with the state of things in Ireland, that labourers would very much prefer working at the public works, even at lower wages, than to undertake agricultural labour in the service of private farmers, who took care that they should work vigorously. As for the promised Ministerial measures, he would only say of them, that, as far as he could judge of them from the speech of the noble Marquess opposite, they were boons to Ireland for which he was sure Ireland would be grateful.
EARL FITZWILLIAMobserved with regret the absence of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Brougham) who had edified their Lordships with so eloquent and diversified an address. Had the noble Lord not left the House, he (Earl Fitzwilliam) would have ventured to offer one or two observations in reference to various passages in his address; but it was very much to be lamented that it had become a habit with his noble Friend, after making a long speech de omnibus rebus et quibusdam aliis, suddenly to vanish no one knew where. He went off something like guncotton, and disappeared as completely. There were many things in the noble Lord's address of which he (Earl Fitzwilliam) approved most cordially; and he felt particularly grateful for the suggestion which he threw out at the close, namely, that they should do everything in their power to restrain the consumption of farinaceous food. The recommendation was an excellent one, and was eminently deserving of their Lordships' most serious consideration. There was another admirable passage in the noble and learned Lord's address, for which he, as an Irishman, thanked him warmly—that in which

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he enforced on their Lordships' minds this unquestionable fact, that the evil under which Ireland was suffering was an imperial question. He trusted that this fact would sink deeply into the minds of the English people, and more especially of the inhabitants of Liverpool and Lancashire generally. He was particularly anxious that it should be properly understood and appreciated in Liverpool, where the pressure on the rates for the relief of the Irish poor was so severely felt; for he knew how much and how naturally public opinion was influenced in this country by the opinions held and the conduct pursued in that great town—the second capital, so to speak, of England. With respect to the Labour-rate Act, he admitted that it had not, in all respects, worked as well as its promoters could have wished; but he still thought that too severe charges had been brought against this measure. He would ask those who censured it unqualifiedly, what would the position of the country have been had it not been for that Act? It was intended as a test to the landowners of Ireland, to whom the alternative of providing private employment for the people, or of submitting to taxation for public works, was offered; and in this sense it had failed; but it was undeniable, notwithstanding, that it had been productive of great benefit to the popular classes. The works which were undertaken under its provisions were not as great, nor as beneficial, nor as national, as he could have wished; but, notwithstanding all this, he was decidedly of opinion that very great benefit had been derived, in the mitigation of popular distress, from the operation of the law. With respect to the Ministerial measures opened to their consideration that evening, he would only say, that, on the whole, they did as much credit to the wisdom of the Government, as to their kindness of heart. He spoke thus, in general terms of approval, because, although there might be some features in the scheme to which he might, perhaps, be inclined to take exception, still, he thought, upon the whole, that they had, to a certain extent at least, fairly grappled with the evils under which Ireland laboured. But on behalf of that calumniated body of men, the Irish landlords, he must put in a plea. He must, on their behalf, take the liberty of saying, that if it was intended that the regeneration of Ireland, and the bringing of that country and its rural population into a healthy state, should be cast upon one
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class of the Queen's subjects, and that one class the landholders of Ireland, the people and Legislature of this great empire would be guilty of a gross injustice to that class. Supposing that this great task were to be imposed upon Ireland alone, were there no other classes in that country besides the landowners so wealthy and so prominent in position as to be called upon to undertake this great and expensive work? Assuredly there were many. But he would go further, and contend that the task ought not to be cast on Ireland alone. Why was Ireland in her present condition? Why was her rural population what it was? He asked wealthy London—he asked wealthy England, why Ireland was poor? What had been the cause of the poverty and misery of Ireland? He would answer, England had been the cause of all those evils. Yes, it was the original tyranny of England, and her subsequent misrule for centuries, that had reduced Ireland to degradation and destitution; and if this were so—and that it was so history attested—why should it be said that Ireland was to be rescued from her present distressing position by Irish means alone? The people and Legislature of England must assist. When they heard that 22,000 Irish paupers had become chargeable on the poor rates of Liverpool alone, they could not continue to think that the task of regeneration was incumbent on Ireland alone. The wise course would be for Government to grant loans to the landowners, and otherwise to assist them in the performance of the great work. Although he approved, as a whole, of the great scheme which the Ministers had propounded, he confessed he hoped that even more than they as yet contemplated would have to be done in order to satisfy the requirements of the present dreadful emergency. There was one part of the plan to which, perhaps, some exception might be taken. He alluded to the course proposed to be adopted in reference to the reclamation of waste lands. This was the only part of the scheme in which the Government appeared; and yet, he was very much inclined to think, that this public operation was the very one of all others from which Government ought most cautiously to abstain. At all events, the question was one which should be handled with extreme delicacy and ability; for the idea of placing the Government of England in the position of a body farming Ireland, was a thing very much to be deprecated. There was one particular reform which he was very anxious

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to see introduced into Ireland. The entire system of railways ought to be in the hands of the Government. Certain he was, that in Ireland, if they were to look to the construction of railways, those works should be undertaken by the Government. Very little indeed had as yet been done in that way; and, therefore, nothing that had heretofore occurred in Ireland could be pleaded as barring the Government from the adoption of a course so wise and judicious. In conclusion, he would merely remark, that the only means for producing the regeneration of Ireland, and founding her prosperity on a permanent basis, was to bring about a great moral revolution in the character of the rural population of Ireland; and to the accomplishment of this great object the Government should devote their best and most earnest energies.
The EARL of MOUNTCASHELLsaid, that the noble Earl opposite had asked what were the causes of those evils which afflicted Ireland? He would refer any one who put that question to the whole history of Ireland: from the days of Henry II. down to the present period, the rule of England had always been baneful to Ireland. England had always had its petty jealousies, and had always treated Ireland as a half-conquered country, and had always made her the victim of her manufacturing jealousy. She had invariably exercised her power to prevent the extension of Irish trade, her commerce, and her agriculture. The noble Earl then instanced Poynings' Law, and other Acts, for the purpose of showing that England had unfairly and improperly limited the power of the Irish Parliament. Since the Union, many Acts of a similar tendency and conceived in the same spirit had been passed; and the alterations which had been made in the glass and excise duties had stopped some flourishing manufactures in Ireland. There was, however, one question which at that moment was of paramount importance: it was this—could the Irish landlords support the poor? He would submit to the House a short statement, which would show their Lordships the nature and extent of the resources which the landlords possessed, and then the House might judge for itself of their ability to meet the present emergency. Mr. Griffiths, by desire of the Government, valued the whole of Ireland; that gentleman estimated the entire rental of the country at 12,715,000 l. per annum. But, for facility of calculation, let it be taken
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at 13,000,000 l. The land which yielded this rental of 13,000,000 l. was to be saddled with these heavy expenses. Now, the amount of judgments, mortgages, and other bond debts which incumbered the landed estates in Ireland, might be calculated to amount at least to eight years' rental—that is, eight times 13,000,000 l., which would be 104,000,000 l. He would put down the interest upon 100,000,000 l. at 5 per cent. Some of the land, however, paid 6 per cent, but some only paid 4½ per cent, so that he would put it down at 5 per cent on an average. Then for agency and collection he would put down 1s. in the pound, which made 650,000 l.; law expenses, say about 1s. in the pound, which would make 650,000 l.; jointures, one-twentieth of the income; marriage settlements, &c., amounted to about 4,000,000 l.; interest, 2,000,000 l. per annum; proportion of tithe rent-charge, 1,500,000 l.; making a total amount of 10,450,000 l., which, if deducted from the whole rental of 13,000,000 l., would leave only a balance of about 2,500,000 l. for the landlords. It was then very easy to see how much the landlords of Ireland had at their disposal after paying all these charges. He had no objection to have his calculations sifted to the bottom, but he pledged himself that they were rather under than over the mark. Was it possible, he asked, with the money actually at the disposal of the landlords of Ireland, to support the present population upon their estates? According to the poor-law reports, there were 3,000,000 of persons every year—even in the common years—who could not procure employment. The average support of each person in a poorhouse amounted to about 1s. 6d. per week. This would require a sum of about 12,000,000 l. a year for the support of 3,000,000 of persons. To expect, then, that the Irish landlords could possibly meet this large demand with their limited resources, was entirely out of the question. He suggested, as a temporary measure of relief to the landlords, who had been brought into their present difficulties by no fault of their own, but merely by the pressure of the times, which had prevented their tenantry from paying their rents, that a Bill should be passed preventing the foreclosure of mortgages for three years, upon payment of 3½ per cent out of the rental. The landlords of Ireland were accused by persons in this country of exacting too much rent from their tenants.

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It was right that it should go abroad that this was altogether false. The mistake arose from confounding the Irish plantation acre with the English statute acre, which were quite different, the former being 1½ acre and 19 perches of English measure. In the division of the profits of land it was generally understood that one-fourth should go to the landlord, and three-fourths for the support and repayment of the labour of the tenant; and he would assert that if this calculation were brought to the test as regarded Ireland, there would not be a single instance in which the landlord obtained one-fourth of the profits. He believed the frequency of early marriages had been one cause of the minute subdivision of land, and these early marriages were encouraged by the Roman Catholic priests, where derived the greater portion of their incomes from the fees arising from them. If to that was added the over population and want of capital, they would arrive at what were the leading evils of Ireland. To show how much property was subdivided in Ireland, he would state that the entire number of farms was 619,000, and of these there were no less than 310,000, which did not exceed five acres; there were 152,000 above five and not exceeding fifteen acres, 79,000 above fifteen and not exceeding thirty acres, and only 47,000 which exceeded sixty acres in all Ireland. One great cause of the absence of all preparation for the ensuing harvest was, that the labourers were themselves without potatoes, and the farmers, who were in the habit of employing them, were also without potatoes. When they offered to work for the farmers, the farmers were unable to provide them with food, and the consequence was they were obliged to go upon the public works. He entreated the earnest attention of their Lordships to the disastrous state in which that country would be placed next year if no arrangements were made for providing seed for the farmers and labourers. A supply ought to be at once sent over to Ireland for distribution in the various localities: if that were not done, and without payment where the means of purchasing it was not to be procured, a great portion of the land must remain uncultivated. The people were at present dying by hundreds, and if some measures were not taken the country would be depopulated altogether next year, if not by famine, by the cholera, which was already making its appearance.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHwould take that opportunity of expressing his admiration of the tone and manner of the noble Marquess who had opened the debate, towards Ireland. He wished to recall to their observation that under the measures proposed by the Government, the Irish landed proprietor would be enabled to borrow money for the purpose of employing the people. He hoped that would be distinctly understood, and that it was not, as had been stated by the noble and learned Lord who had left the House, for their own individual advantage. He understood that they were merely the responsible medium for borrowing the money. He feared, however, that in many cases these measures would be inoperative. Where a proprietor possessed extensive estates which were burdened with a large population, it would be impossible to make any arrangements which would enable him to meet the destitution that existed; and he feared their Lordships knew little of the relative position of the landed proprietors and the tenantry in Ireland. As a landed proprietor, he felt that the law was on a radically wrong and improper footing as regarded the occupation of land in Ireland. In England if a tenant committed waste, there would be no difficulty in obtaining an injunction to restrain him; in Ireland that was almost impossible, and it amounted to nothing less than a denial of justice. In 1844, he (the Marquess of Westmeath) had stated before Lord Devon's Committee, on his oath, that if there was not a new arrangement relative to the occupation of land, in less than five years the whole population of Ireland would be obliged to fall back upon the State for food. A noble and learned Lord had expressed a wish that no Peer of Parliament or Member of the House of Commons who voted on these measures, should avail himself of any share of the money. He was perfectly willing to meet the noble and learned Lord in his objections. All that he asked was that his property might be placed in his own power. He denied that the law did it—give him that, and they should never hear him or any proprietor in Ireland refuse to assist the people in their distress. He had had some correspondence with some of the highest legal authorities in Ireland, and they all agreed with him that the power of granting a writ of injunction should be vested in the assistant barrister, and the expense of it reduced to next to nothing;

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but he had been unable to attain this object. The noble Marquess had referred to the subject of emigration: he regretted that there was no other fair outlet for the population of Ireland; but they had no right to charge that upon Ireland, unless they passed such laws as were fit for the condition of that country. The Irish proprietors were not the authors of their misfortunes. He was quite willing to consent to any amount of taxation to relieve the distress which pressed upon Ireland; but let them know what they were about, and not let them go on with this system of borrowing money without knowing the consequences.
EARL GREYwould not occupy more than a few moments of their Lordships' time; but there were a few remarks which had been made in the course of the debate, which ought not to be allowed to pass without some notice from that side of the House. He agreed with what had been said by many noble Lords relative to the Act of last Session, commonly, but incorrectly, called the Labour-rate Act. The great majority of the noble Lords who had spoken had pronounced the strongest sentence of condemnation upon that Act; and certainly, it must be presumed from what fell from those noble Lords, that the impression which must have been made, implied a grave censure on the Government, for want of common prudence and foresight in the matter. After what had passed in the course of last Session, he saw scarcely any ground for that censure. The noble and learned Lord had said that the Labour-rate Act of last Session had been passed in a great hurry; but he would remind him that it was but a renewal of one passed in an early period of the Session, after full consideration and discussion, and when other measures had been brought forward for the relief of the distress existing in Ireland. Among those the most effective under which relief was afforded to meet the distress arising from the partial failure of the potato crop of 1845, was the measure authorizing presentments for public works: the existing Act was but a renewal, with some particular exceptions, of that measure. That Act gave power to the baronial sessions to make presentments for public works, the whole amount for which was to be advanced by the Government, one half of the expenses being repaid by instalments by the presenters, the other half being borne by the Treasury. That measure was brought in in January
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last; it passed both Houses of Parliament, and was brought into extensive operation. The relief committees in Ireland made very good use of this measure for the purpose of meeting the existing distress. Presentments to the large amount of 1,300,000 l. were made, and so far from complaints being made at the time of presentments of useless works, in some districts where no distress existed presentments were made, in order, as they candidly avowed, that the district might have, what they called, its fair share of relief. That was a great abuse. These were not the measures for which the money was granted by Parliament, but it was so applied. Abuses of the grossest kind were practised; persons who had no claims whatever on account of destitution were employed, and works were carried on which were altogether unnecessary. This was a painful subject, and he would not further dwell upon it. But this he would say, that the measure proved perfectly effectual. Of the 1,300,000 l. granted, only 300,000 l. had been issued up to the time those works closed; yet that amount, small as it was, had been most effective in relieving Irish distress up to the time that the Bill, which afterwards passed, was introduced into Parliament. The Government was in possession of evidence to show that under this Bill the Irish people in the early part of the summer of last year were not only well off, but better off than they usually were. He had evidence in his hand, that up to quite the end of the summer there was every sign of more than usual prosperity; the revenue was increasing, and the deposits in the saving banks were greater than had been known for some time previous. He knew also, on the evidence of the Catholic clergy, that there was less fever in the county of Clare, one of the most wretched parts of Ireland, than in ordinary years. In spite of abuses, therefore, the measure had succeeded in relieving the distress which existed. Under these circumstances the Government, at the end of June, succeeded to office. Early in August it was first known that the potato crop, which up to that time had been most promising, and even luxuriant, was suddenly blighted, and in a great measure destroyed. Under these circumstances he asked their Lordships, was it unnatural or unreasonable that the Government, finding a Bill had been passed, which, though liable to some objections, had yet greatly succeeded in the main object of relieving the distress

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which prevailed, should consider it would be the best course they could adopt to renew the measure, with such modifications as appeared necessary? Then, what modifications did they make? Under the former Act one-half the money only was to be repaid; and the Government, thinking that that arrangement was the chief cause of the evils and abuses that had prevailed, determined to charge the whole amount levied, and to exclude private works. Accordingly, the Bill was so amended, and in that state it passed. Now, he said the Government had a right to expect assistance and co-operation; and he would ask, if the measure had failed, was its failure fairly attributable to error in the provisions of the Bill, or to the manner in which the powers granted by the Bill had been exercised? The noble Lord mentioned, among the abuses that prevailed, that works were presented which were not only useless but mischievous. Now, why was this? Was it that no works of a more beneficial nature could be found? He lived in not the most unimproved county in England, yet many useful works could be found in that county; and he did not believe that in any part of England they could find a district so much improved that no really useful works could be projected. He believed, therefore, that if proper care had been taken, really useful works might have been found. But the error arose from this—that they ordered a great many more works to be done than ought to have been done. It was their business to give their works to the really destitute, and to none other. It was their business, and not that of the Government, to see that the relief was confined to the really destitute; yet, as the noble Lord himself stated, they employed persons on these works who were not in the least need of assistance. The noble Lord said the fishermen had drawn up their boats, finding it more profitable to go upon the public works, thus not only depriving the people of one species of food, but at the same time increasing the public burdens. Let him ask who put them on those works? Who issued the work tickets to these fishermen? It was the gentlemen of the locality. It was painful to say these things, but it was necessary for the House and the country that the truth should be known. Another reason why the works were not so useful as they ought to have been was, that they were brought into operation prematurely. The Government had a right to expect, that so long as the
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harvest lasted, there would be no pressure. Instead of this, in the month of August or the beginning of September, there was so great a pressure on the Government to continue or commence works, that it was found impossible to resist it. He would mention one or two instances. A deputation came from Westport to the Castle, declaring that the necessity for undertaking works in that district was so urgent that they could not possibly be postponed; yet afterwards the Government received authentic information, that at that very time the crops of corn in that neighbourhood were actually suffering for want of hands to cut them. Again, a large number of labourers were withdrawn from the works of the Shannon Navigation, and put upon the relief works. Whose fault was that? Was it not the fault of those whose business it was to take care that the claims for relief were properly tested? When he said this, however, he could not conceal from himself that while he was throwing considerable blame upon the gentry of Ireland, at the same time he was bound to make great allowances for the position in which they were placed. He admitted their difficulties, and he assured them that he most deeply sympathized with them. He knew that in England we had the advantage of the co-operation of an intelligent middle class, who assisted their superiors in sifting the claims that came before them; and he was aware that, to a great extent, the Irish gentry were without this assistance. It was the great and grievous misfortune of that unhappy country that this middle class did not exist; but this misfortune could not be attributed to the Government; and had any other plan been substituted for the relief of the Irish people, precisely the same want of adequate machinery for carrying it into operation would have produced similar disappointment. But when those most interested thus abdicated their functions, no Government could be prepared to undertake them. He held in his hand the Report of the Board of Works, which put this in a strong light. This report, after stating the principle and theory of the Relief Act, stated that, in practice, the sessions presented without previous local inquiry; they exercised little or no discrimination, so that the board had to perform its duties and those of the sessions in addition; it had to ascertain the amount of destitution in different localities, and incur the odium of rejecting many presentations; it had also to select the names

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from the list returned as destitute. The Board of Works and its officers had thus duties thrown upon them it was physically impossible they could perform, and which Parliament never meant them to undertake. It was his firm conviction, that if in the working of this Bill the Government had received proper co-operation, it would have been successful. He was compelled to say this much in defence of the Government. He was sorry to say that, if necessary, he could have carried the statement much further; but he thought he had said enough to enable their Lordships to account for the non-success of the measure. But he had also to observe, that it was expected other measures would have been passed, and that more efforts would have been made to increase the amount of private and profitable employment. He confessed his rooted conviction was that really advantageous employment of industry could only take place under private superintendence. They knew that the Million Act, which had not succeeded in Ireland, had succeeded in Scotland. The proprietors in Scotland, under the same circumstances, had applied for and obtained a large sum of money, and applied it to the permanent improvement of their estates, at the same time that they had supplied the population with profitable labour. He would speak of only two more points. It was said the Government ought to have established depôts of corn, and furnished supplies of food to the people. There were returns on this subject preparing, and when they were furnished their Lordships would see the Government had done quite as much as it was prudent to do. The Government were reproached with not having provided a larger amount of supplies; but it must be remembered that the Government could only obtain these supplies by purchase, which must infallibly have had the effect of enhancing prices. Government could not purchase in Ireland or abroad. As it was, the amount of grain of all kinds, including Indian corn and flour, entered for consumption, exceeded 4,800,000 quarters; and the quantity imported, though less, exceeded 4,000,000 quarters. Consider what gigantic transactions this implied; that our merchants had in every quarter of the world agents buying wherever they could to advantage every quarter of corn—in the Mediterranean, on the Danube, in Southern Russia, on the Baltic, in America, and, in fact, in every part of the world. If the Government had attempted to buy in these
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markets, it would have been necessary to substitute for this voluntary, unpaid, and effective agency, an agency on the part of Government most expensive and ineffective. It would have been a policy absolutely suicidal to have attempted to interfere with the course of trade. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) thought that Government ought to have come forward and established depôts in places where small dealers were making large profits by dealing in grain. This appeared to him the very worst advice which he had ever had the misfortune to hear given to their Lordships. If there was one thing more essential than another with a view of improving the condition of Ireland, it was the creation of a class of small dealers; and he could conceive no greater injury to that country than to check the growth of this infant trade. The only other point to which he would advert was emigration—a subject more immediately connected with his own department in the Government. Having most anxiously considered the subject, he had come to the conclusion, and the Government had thought fit to adopt his views, that to undertake on the part of the Executive Government to find the means of carrying across the Atlantic those who might wish to emigrate, would be to undertake a task in which it would be utterly impossible to expect success; instead of doing good they would do mischief. He found that the emigration to North America from these kingdoms in the last ten years had been no less than 687,000. During the past year 110,000 went to the United States and the British North American colonies, the vast proportion of whom were Irish, amounting to no less than from five-sixths to six-sevenths of the whole number. The far greater number of these belonged to the labouring class, for out of 32,750 who arrived in Canada, there were only 600 cabin passengers. The former went out at a very low cost, and no doubt endured very great hardships; but under the new provisions it was very seldom that abuses occurred, such as to endanger life or health; and if such cases ever occurred now, it was from infractions of the law, which in almost every case were visited with certain punishment. The journey was mostly performed in the summer. They emigrated by means of assistance which they received from their friends to a very large amount, From information which he had received, and on the accuracy of which he could rely, it seemed that those who went out to the

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United States or British North America were in the habit of remitting to their friends whom they had left behind the money necessary to enable them to emigrate also. It was estimated that from Liverpool alone, in the course of the last season, no less a sum than 37,000 l. was sent in remittances of this kind. From the example afforded by the relief system in Ireland they might very fairly assume that, if the Government were to undertake to provide the passage of emigrants who had no means of finding their own way out, a very small proportion indeed would find the means. These sacrifices would be no longer made; these remittances, now so valuable a resource in aid of emigration, would cease. But more than that; if Government furnished the means, expectations of a very different kind, as regarded accommodation, would be entertained, from those with which emigrants would set forth relying on their own means. If Government were to carry them out, the expense could not be less than 5l. a head, whereas the cost to the emigrants themselves was certainly one-third less. The only object which could influence the Government in taking such a step must be to increase emigration; but without any such interference it would be found that the tide of emigration would set much faster than before, and he should not be surprised if the number next year doubled that in the present. These were some of the reasons which induced him to concur with the noble Lord who had preceded him in his present office in thinking that it would be impossible for Her Majesty's Government to undertake the conveyance of emigrants across the Atlantic. They would, however, be able to do much for the emigrant when once landed on the other side. True, they could not find him employment, but they undertook to give him full information as to where employment was to be found, and to put him in the way of getting in the cheapest manner to the market for his labour. Under this system, at a small expense, they would be able to show that emigration had proceeded most satisfactorily. Last year 32,750 emigrants landed in Canada from this country; and the reports of the emigration agent, together with the despatch of Lord Cathcart, stated that out of that number 28,000 and upwards had actually settled in the colony, and were, up to September, all in employment, and all well to do in their circumstances. Such having been the results of
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the present system, Her Majesty's Government had not thought it advisable to adopt any of those projects which had been recommended with the view of adding to the facilities of emigration from this country to the colonies.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that he would not then have trespassed upon their Lordships' time, but from some statements which had been made by the noble Earl (Earl Grey) which, in his opinion, called for some observation, not only at his (Lord Monteagle's) hands, but also at the hands of all those who, in common with him, felt an interest in the welfare of Ireland. The noble Earl had seemed to imagine that there had been an imputation cast upon the Government by the remarks offered in reference to the Labour-rate Act, and in this belief the noble Earl had indignantly repelled the supposed imputation. But he (Lord Monteagle) could not see that, in this debate, there had been any of that vituperative or violent language, or severity of censure, which could have called from the noble Earl such a defence. It was not to be supposed, because noble Lords or persons out of doors attacked the Labour-rate Act, that therefore they attacked the Government. That was a measure with which they had had to deal as it had been presented to them; and it was just, legitimate, and defensible, that they should express their opinions of its evil working without any Minister of the Crown being required to tell them that thereby they were involving the question of an attack on the Government. The defence of the Act was, that when passed in August last, very few of their Lordships being present, it was only the renewal of a former Act; and that Act had been found to work well, with some exceptions. Now the circumstances of Ireland, in respect to the working of the former Act and of the present Act, were totally different. When the first Bill was introduced, they had not had the experience of the state of Ireland in reference to such a system to enable them to deal with such a question, as, before the close of last Session, both Government, and Legislature, and people, had acquired. His noble Friend said that there were abuses in that Act, and that its evil working was exhibited just as was that of the present Act. The evil effect in the first case had been, that the inducements which had been held out to attach themselves to the public works, had induced labourers to desert their natural, ordinary, and necessary

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occupations; and this was precisely the complaint which the working of the second Act had elicited. That inconvenience had been shown in the working of the previous Act; and the observation of that inconvenience should have dissuaded his noble Friend from following the example of which he was the first to show the evil consequences. The state of Ireland under the working of the first Act, was nothing in comparison to the distressed condition in which it was at present. If that Act, which was found pregnant with evil, was the Act which the Government was called upon to renew, it behoved the Government and Parliament to pause before they adopted it. His noble Friend said that the present Act was effectual for the purpose for which it was designed, by keeping the people alive in Ireland, and saving them from starvation. But as to the two measures, there was no analogy with respect to their remedial tendencies. The Act in operation had given to the Government the greatest power that had ever been vested in the Government for the last hundred years, for it had given them unlimited command of the power of the purse; it was the only Act by which the power of using the public purse was given over without stint or measure to the control of the Government. And was it in reality effectual for the purpose for which it was enacted? Let them look at Skibbereen, and other parts of Ireland, and see what was taking place there at that moment. It was not effectual for any good purpose, except in districts in which the making of roads was an advisable and profitable work. His noble Friend seemed to understand neither the Act, nor the working of the Act. One would imagine, from the arguments of his noble Friend, that it was left open to the sessions in Ireland to select works of a useful character, as freely as such works might be selected in the county of Northumberland, should they ever be needed there. But the fact was, that the Irish landlords were bound up within the four corners of that Act, and limited by it to such works as might be presented by the grand juries. For instance, building was not within the Act, and therefore they were necessarily driven to making roads, according to the express opinion of the law officers of the Crown in Ireland, who, he believed, were consulted on the point. Perhaps the noble Earl did not know that of all parts of the Queen's dominions, Ireland was that part in which were to be seen the best devised
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roads, the best engineered, and supplied with the most durable materials; and yet, under this Act, the only species of labour which could be called into operation was labour applied for making roads, or that species of labour which was least wanted. He condemned the Labour-rate Act from the bottom of his heart; but the noble Earl defended it with an intense devotion. If, however, the Act was so good a one, why was Mr. Labouchere's letter written, which was an absolute repeal of the statute, and the substitution of another and different scheme in its stead? Why were they now called upon to set it aside, if it deserved the encomiums of his noble Friend? His noble Friend (Earl Grey), however, felt that it was impossible to deny the failure of the Act; and then he said that the failure of the Act was not attributable to the law—to the Board of Works, or to the working man—but altogether to the non-co-operation of the Irish proprietors. He was sorry that such an imputation should have been sanctioned by the high authority of his noble Friend. He was prepared to prove that whatever the state of society had been into which they had introduced such a measure, or enactments like it, which stood as a disgrace upon the Statute-book, whether in Ireland or in this part of the empire, improved as it was beyond the condition of Ireland, they could not safely have introduced the machinery of this Act, under circumstances like those under which it had been introduced in Ireland. Let not the noble Earl try the public spirit, the morality, the virtue, or the resoluteness of the county of Northumberland, by such an Act—should the state of that county ever require the application of any remedial measures of the kind. The noble Earl said that improper presentments had been made, and that a lavish expenditure of public money had taken place. He was quite ready to admit that the expenditure was extravagant, and, further, that at the same time that these extravagant rates of wages were given, being double and treble the ordinary rates, people were dying in great numbers, in the same districts, of absolute want. But the fact was, there could be no adequate machinery for the execution of such an Act. Still there were abundance of checks; there must be, after the presentments, the approval of the Lord Lieutenant, the approval of the Board of Works, the approval of the Treasury, and therefore, if extravagant presentments had been made,

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the blame ought equally to be shared by those authorities. As to the selection, it was the duty of the Government officers who were sent down into the different districts of Ireland to make the selection. The Act expressly stated, that the selection of works was not the duty of the landlord. How was it possible for magistrates at the presentment sessions to judge of the works sent in to them, unless they were aided by professional officers sent down by Government? The noble Lord, after describing the mode in which presentments were made in Ireland, and the small amount of deliberation permitted to the magistrates, craved the indulgence of the House while he said a word or two on a matter personal to himself. He did not desire to impute malignity to the great medium of public opinion in which a misrepresentation of his conduct had appeared; but he did attribute malignity to the quarter, wherever it was, from which the information was derived. He was chairman of a special sessions in the south of Ireland, where presentments were made out of a nature infinitely beyond their power to master. They applied to the officer of the Board of Works, who requested them to consider the applications, and report upon them to the board, from which, he stated, they would receive the best consideration. Accordingly, at the instance of this officer, the sessions were adjourned for ten days, to give him an opportunity of considering the nature of the works. When the adjourned meeting took place, he (Lord Monteagle) was in the chair, and proposed to go through the works in succession, first obtaining the report of the public officer. When the officer was applied to, however, he said he had been unable to examine them, using these remarkable words: "If my body had been made of cast metal, and my brains of quicksilver, it would have been impossible for me to have discharged this duty." He at the same time entreated them to send all the works up to the Board of Works, stating that there they would be examined, and a selection made. Much to his (Lord Monteagle's) regret that proposition was agreed to; yet he had been charged with having sent up an immense mass of presentments, though that course was followed at the request of the officer of the Board of Works, and, indeed, at his direct recommendation. He would not have referred to this had not his conduct been made the subject of great misrepresentation; for, in point of fact, the proposal he
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made was overruled by an amendment, and the course which was followed was that suggested by an officer of the Crown. The noble Earl had expressed his astonishment that the landlords of Ireland had not availed themselves of the other measures last Session, and he referred to the Drainage Act. It was rather too hard to allege this omission as a direct charge, when the Drainage Act was well known to be in its nature so defective and inapplicable that it was intended to be amended in the present Session. The last topic to which he should refer was most important, and he rejoiced that Her Majesty's Government had undertaken it. He meant the question of emigration. He did not look upon the emigration of millions as applicable to the circumstances of the country either in point of humanity or of expense; but in particular districts of Ireland, where the population had got into a state of congestion, it was difficult to deal with it in other way than by applying the topical remedy of emigration. He had always felt that the application of this remedy was beneficial to landlords as well as tenants. It was not universal, but local, emigration that was contemplated. The great difficulty upon this subject was to avoid the substituting public money for that which would go on without it; for if the public aid were substituted, the public money would be wasted. What Her Majesty's Government should seek to attain was that sort of emigration which would have a tendency to cause the poorer sort of emigrants to migrate; and in order to accomplish which great care should be taken, and great discrimination used, in the class of persons to whom assistance was to be given when they reached their destination. The assistance to be given on their reaching the other side should not be given to the emigrant who carried capital with him, but only to that class which might be stated as, though not the pauper, yet the poorer class of emigrants. He had not intended to say one word in the course of the debate that night, and would have been willing to allow the Labour-rate Act to have withstood the objections that assailed it on every side; but he could not prevent making some observations when the failure of that Act had been attributed to the landlords of Ireland.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEadmitted, that the Labour-rate Act gave rise to much dissatisfaction; and that, in a considerable degree, it had failed in its effect. He thought, however, that the

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noble Lord who had just resumed his seat had mistaken the purport of the observations of his noble Friend the Secretary for the Colonies. Considering the manner in which the Bill had been attacked, his noble Friend had said, that it was right that the House should consider the circumstances under which the measure had been brought forward. Had the proprietors of Ireland acted differently, the result of the Act might have been different. It was never intended that the Bill should have been one for feeding the Irish people; and, although it had been so fiercely attacked tonight by a noble Peer, whom, as he had left the House, he might name, the Earl of Roden, he could not but remember, that a week after the Bill had been introduced, that noble Earl had come down to their Lordships' House, and expressed his hope that the measure would be effective in relieving the evils it was intended to alleviate. The fact was, that, upon their accession to office, Her Majesty's Government had found the Bill in question, and the alterations which they had made in it were merely designed to remedy what they considered to be the faults of their predecessors. He admitted that the Million Act had failed, but principally owing to a legal defect, which prevented it from being applicable to tenants at will. It was to remedy that defect that Mr. Labouchere's letter was issued. Let him, however, remind their Lordships of the great difficulties by which they were surrounded. Those who found fault with the Government measures had not suggested others. No man thought at the close of last Session that the famine which was hovering over Ireland would have overtaken it in so brief a time. He anticipated that the measures proposed would speedily work great good; more especially that respecting emigration.
Question agreed to.
House adjourned.