Sitting of 18 February 1847

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Forfarshire, and several other places, against the Use of Sugar in Distilleries,
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and against the Admission of Rum except upon the payment of a certain Duty.—From Guardians of the Poor of a Union in Suffolk, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement.—From Mayo, and several other places, for the Adoption of such Measures as may insure the People of Ireland such a Supply of Food as will save them from Starvation.—From the Cardigan Union, for Alteration of the Poor Law Amendment Act.—From the County of Monaghan, against Out-door Relief.—From Bodmin, and several other places, for Repeal of the Poor Removal Act.—From Solicitors of the Court of Chancery, for Inquiry respecting Compensation to Officers of said Court.—From Guardians of the Poor of Chester, for Abolition of Office of Poor Law Commissioners.

DESTITUTE PERSONS' (IRELAND) BILL.
Order of the Day for receiving the Report of the Amendment.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHsaid, that he viewed the Bill with great distrust. It assumed that the people of Ireland would be capable of giving money for the food to be supplied. He saw no measure yet passed by Parliament, or known to be in progress, which would effect the object to be attained by the Bill within the limited period for which the measure was to remain in operation. It was to be substituted, as he understood, for what was improperly called the Labour-rate Act. He confessed that he had a feeling almost of despondency with respect to the future in Ireland, from the reports contained in the large blue book upon the Table. That feeling did not arise from the state of the potato crop, but from the picture contained in that large blue book of the intimidation under which the relief committees acted, and the jobbing which prevailed in the administration of the law. He thought the districts in which the provisions of this Bill were to be carried into operation, were infinitely too large. He very much doubted, too, whether the Irish landlords would be disposed to borrow money under the conditions imposed on them; for whatever disposition they might feel to relieve their fellow-subjects, he doubted whether they could recover that increase in their rents which it would be necessary to exact in order to pay the interest of the sums borrowed from Government. He admitted that some of the works under the present system were unnecessary, and that it was difficult to find out those which might be of material service to the country. Yet he was satisfied that, without some such means of employing the poor scattered over the country, the means of purchasing food would not be furnished to the people. The principle of the Labour-rate Act was to give every man food who had the power of giving labour in exchange for it. But

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how was food to be purchased if no labour was required? It was distinctly avowed, too, that the new Poor-law Act, and the Act authorizing the loans to landlords, were to proceed pari passu. So that any new presentments were conditional on the passing of an Act which might not pass for a considerable time, proposing, as it did, to make exchanges as to the present poor law. He thought the only difference between the operation of this and the Labour-rate Act would be that one gave food for labour, and under the other food would be given for nothing. He thought this measure a good one as an auxiliary to other measures; but as it stood it really amounted to nothing more than giving out of the hard earnings of the people of this country food without exacting labour in return.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, that as to the former Act, of which the noble Earl spoke with something like reverence, and the proposed substitute for it, he knew not whether the noble Earl was present when he moved the second reading of this Bill; but if he had been, he must have recollected that he had expressed his regret that the present was not accompanied with the other Bills introduced by the Government as to Ireland. He thought, however, they were justified in proposing it, as it was intended by it to give immediate relief. As to the advances to the landlords being made at the same time that the Poor Relief Bill was extended, he had stated at an early period of the Session, and also at the second reading of this Bill, that it was desirable to consider both measures together, as under one of them the landlords (particularly of certain estates) would be enabled to meet the great change proposed in the domestic industry of the country under the other. He entertained a confident hope that the landlords would readily avail themselves of the facilities offered under one of the Acts for applying capital to the cultivation of the land. The noble Earl (Ellenborough) had allowed that there was a great moral principle in the Labour-rate Act; but he was sorry to say that the Government had found that great abuses had been practised under this Act; and that, above all, great intimidation had been used for the employment of parties who ought never to have been engaged. No man could more sensibly feel the injury arising from these abuses than he (the Marquess of Lansdowne), but he must say that great advantages
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had been obtained under the Act; the efforts of Her Majesty's Government had been very effectual in putting down those abuses, and great progress had been made in different parts of the country in the prevention of intimidation, and he was happy to say that the employment of labour was now being carried on in the most peaceable manner; he could assure the House that Her Majesty's Goverment had great hopes of putting down intimidation altogether. Under all the circumstances, the matter was too important not to secure the vigilant attention of Her Majesty's Government. He proposed to move the third reading of the Bill on Monday.
Amendment reported.

THE CIVIL WAR IN PORTUGAL.
LORD BEAUMONTsaid, that he now rose to put the question of which he had given notice, respecting the conduct of the Portuguese Government with regard to certain prisoners who had surrendered to the Queen of Portugal's troops after the battle of Torres Vedras. In putting this question, he wished to guard against the inference that he desired to see this country interfering in the domestic concerns of any other country, unless such interference was sanctioned by the obligations of a treaty, or in a case where British interests were very much at stake. But the circumstances which he was going to mention to their Lordships, would, he thought, show that continuing a passive conduct on our part would endanger that strict neutrality which we were desirous of observing, and, instead of simplifying, would greatly increase the difficulties surrounding the question of the affairs of Portugal. It would be in the recollection of their Lordships, that a division of the army opposed to the Queen's army, under the command of Count Bomfim, advanced to Torres Vedras, with the intention, he believed, of marching on Lisbon. The Duke of Saldanha pursued it with his army, and, after a severe battle, which terminated in the success of the forces of the Queen, the remnant of the division of Bomfim retired into the Castle of Torres Vedras. It was summoned to surrender at discretion: this it positively refused to do; but offered to surrender, provided it was allowed the honours of war. To this the Duke of Saldanha agreed, and consequently a stipulation to that effect was drawn up in writing, and signed by the commander of the Queen's troops. On the faith of this stipulation, the

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remnant of the division in the castle at Torres Vedras surrendered. The officers of the division were then marched to Lisbon, and were subsequently sent on board a frigate in the Tagus, and confined, being allowed scarcely the necessaries of life, and but a scanty portion of clothing. Subsequently, in consequence of an idea that some of these officers intended to escape from the frigate, forty or fifty of them were put on board a small brig of war, and the Portuguese Government came to the resoelution of sending them to Angola, one of the worst settlements on the coast of Africa as regarded health. The way in which these unfortunate wretches were to be conveyed to their destination, would render their condition worse than that of negroes on board a slave ship. They were crammed into the smallest possible space, many of them being severely wounded and in bad health. Thus these officers, who expected to receive all the honours of war, were, without any trial or condemnation, sent out, in the presence of our fleet, to a most unhealthy settlement. He wished to show the ground on which he thought our remaining passive, would amount to an act which might lead to the most dangerous consequences. Though our fleet was at Lisbon for the protection of British interests, yet he believed that the officers commanding it would be considered as only doing their duty, if, had Count Bomfim's division not been defeated, but had been enabled to advance upon Lisbon, they had, in case the Queen of Portugal had been obliged to embark in her own frigate, covered that embarkation, and protected the person of the Queen from any injury under such circumstances. If, then, after having proclaimed that we intended perfect neutrality, the British officers would be justified in so acting, he felt that we were also bound to protest, and to expect our protest to be listened to, when measures were taken by the Queen of Portugal's Government which tended to excite against her the best feelings of the country, and which might consequently result in bringing the Queen to that position in which the British officers would be called on to act. Therefore, with the view of preserving our attitude of perfect neutrality, he thought it was only the duty of the British Government to exert every means, before it was too late, to induce the Portuguese Government to revoke their decree with respect to these prisoners, and to restore them to the situation in which they had expected to be
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placed as prisoners of war. He accordingly wished to know whether any communication had been made on the part of Her Majesty's Government with respect to these prisoners, and whether any steps had been taken to procure the reversal of that decree, and to restore those persons back to their country.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: The subject of my noble Friend's question is one of considerable importance, and one to which I am most desirous of giving a satisfactory answer. Before giving that answer, I can only express that regret which I feel, in common with my noble Friend and with the House generally, that the country to which he has alluded should be in a state to give rise to the transactions to which he has so pointedly, and, in my opinion, not improperly, adverted. That a country connected with us by so many ties and historical recollections should be in the state in which Portugal now is, must be a matter of the deepest regret: greatly should we rejoice if any effort on the part of this country, impartially applied, should be made the means of putting an end to that state of things. Your Lordships well know, that in the course of last year an insurrection broke out in that country, which has gradually and most decidedly assumed the character of a civil war. In the course of any such a war your Lordships need not be told that transactions will perpetually occur, from the excitement which prevails, from the heated state of parties, and from the opposition, not only of particular factions, but of particular families, which are deeply to be lamented, and which induce men to infringe those rules which civilized nations have provided shall be observed in contests between one another. It is unquestionably true, that in the course of this civil warfare in Portugal, a body of persons, having been taken with arms in their hands, were made prisoners; and after being made prisoners upon the condition that they would be treated with all the honours of war, a great number of them, I believe, comprising all the principal officers, to the number of forty, were placed on board a small brig, in the Bay of Lisbon, and ordered to be transported to the coast of Africa. I believe that many of them who were so ordered to be transported were severely wounded and sick, and not in a condition to undergo that transportation. A representation to that effect was made both by the captain and surgeon of the brig; but the only consequence

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was, that the representation had given great offence to the Government. This happened in the interval between the departure of Lord Howard de Walden and the arrival of Sir George Seymour; but I am enabled to state to my noble Friend, that from the moment these circumstances became known, great interest was excited in the mind of Her Majesty's Chargéd' Affaires at Lisbon, and he addressed a representation to the Queen's Government on the subject. The Belgian Minister and the French Minister, acting separately for themselves, made representations to the same effect. I hope that, even now, these representations may not be too late. I hope, from that inclination to mercy and forbearance which I am most anxious to believe exists in the Portuguese Government, that they will have been attended to, and that this transportation will have been prevented, and that these prisoners will not, at any rate, be sent to a part fatal to their health: such a punishment is totally inapplicable to such a class of persons, taken in open warfare. I know that, at all events, a great hope is entertained that their destination has already been changed. My Lords, I must state, in justice to the Sovereign of that country, that I am informed that in no one instance, since these troubles began, has one capital punishment been inflicted. From that favourable disposition I argue that this sentence has been reversed; and I can assure your Lordships that it will be the greatest satisfaction to Her Majesty's Government if we find it to be so. It is true, as the noble Lord has observed, that Her Majesty's Government sent a considerable force to the coast of Portugal; but it was not to interfere in the contest. The object of Her Majesty's fleet at Lisbon and Oporto is, in the first instance, to give effectual protection to British interests; and when that object has been answered, it will be a source of great satisfaction to the Government and people of this country, if that fleet shall be enabled to give refuge and protection to persons in danger of their lives; and, as the noble Lord has intimated, it would, above all, be the duty of the officers of the fleet to afford that protection and assistance, in the event of the person of the Queen of Portugal being actually in danger. It is at these points that their duty begins and ends. Beyond this, all that the officers of the British Government can do, is to offer friendly counsel and advice. That counsel and advice has been
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offered in the spirit of friendship on the present occasion, and I shall be glad if it proves acceptable. As long as the contest lasts, with its character as a civil war, it cannot be the inclination of the British Government actively to interfere, nor would there be under any existing treaty a justification for so doing; but, should circumstances assume a different character by the presence of Don Miguel in that country, or of a party acting for the avowed purpose of placing him on the throne, a new state of things may arise, in which it will be a question to be considered how far such a case would revive existing treaties, and compel the British Government to a recurrence to the former policy on which those treaties are founded, and in consequence of which the most successful and beneficial co-operation has formerly taken place. That case has not now arisen; the present contest has all the character of a civil war, and in that the British Government are not prepared to interfere further than for the protection of the interests and lives of British subjects, and, in case of necessity, for the protection of the person of the Queen of Portugal; and, I will add, for the protection of the lives of any persons who, in the extremity of war, may be compelled to take refuge under our flag.
The EARL of ABERDEENsaid, that it must be the desire of every person to mitigate as much as possible the calamities of war, wherever the sufferings of individuals were concerned, especially the horrors of civil war. It was, therefore, necessary and praiseworthy that all means of persuasion should be used, to induce a humane and merciful course of conduct on the part of those engaged in such conflicts; but, if the noble Marquess meant to say, that with regard to the Portuguese Government, not merely private and personal solicitation, persuasion, and influence, would be used, but that, in respect to a contest like that at present going on in Portugal, the Government should also make official representations, interfering with the course which the Portuguese Government might think necessary for its own safety to pursue, he thought that to be a precedent exceedingly dangerous, and a principle liable to great objection. It might be stated, to the credit of the Portuguese people, that in the various convulsions which had taken place of late years among them there had been very little cruelty exercised—that there was very little appearance of a sanguinary disposition in any

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party; thus furnishing an estimable contrast to a neighbouring people of the Peninsula, where acts of vengeance and bloodshed were committed by all parties. There was another reason why the British Government should be particularly cautious at present with respect to any interference with Portugal. He knew not for what reason it was, but the belief was strong in Portugal, that the cause of the insurrection possessed the good wishes of the British Government. He could not believe this to be the case, and he knew not on what the belief was founded, but that the belief was general was indisputable; it was, therefore, incumbent on the British Government to be cautious in respect to any step which might tend to confirm such an opinion. What was the precise object of the course that had been adopted, he was at a loss to understand. Undoubtedly the protection of the interests of British subjects in the state of confusion that prevailed, was a legitimate reason for having a naval force in the Tagus, and that force might also be necessary to secure the personal safety of the Queen of Portugal; but the squadron we now had in the Tagus was not only able to perform such a service as this, but to overawe the whole kingdom of Portugal. He did not know what the particular motive for the continuance of this overwhelming force in the Tagus might be; but he thought it must be evident that the presence of that force might very possibly confirm and strengthen the opinion he had referred to, as being entertained by many persons in Portugal. Some years ago the Government of this country took a very active part—perhaps more active than they were justified in doing—in establishing the present Queen upon the throne of Portugal; and, as relations of the closest friendship and intimacy subsisted between the Government of that country and of our own, he thought we should be justified, without any breach of neutrality, in affording all the moral support in our power to a Sovereign whose throne we had so far contributed to establish. He considered that, at all events, a course should be taken that would prevent its being supposed that the British Government were inclined to foster or approve of the insurrection, and would show that they disapproved of that movement, one object of which was the overthrow of the monarchy in Portugal, and the establishment of a republic; and of the other, the restoration of the despotic Government of Don Miguel. He (the Earl
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of Aberdeen) conceived that neither of those objects could be altogether indifferent to us; and that, therefore, without deviating from our neutrality, care should be taken that the opinion of Her Majesty's Government might be known without any mistake in Portugal, and that the British fleet, whose presence in the Tagus was now so equivocal, was there for the purpose of giving countenance and support to the Government which it had contributed so much to establish.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: After what has fallen from the noble Earl, I trust the House will permit me to say a very few words, so that there may be no possible misapprehension on this subject. I thought that I had said most distinctly that it was the anxious wish of this Government that Her Majesty should be maintained on the throne; but, nevertheless, to maintain the strictest neutrality with reference to the political movement in Portugal. I know of no act done by the British Government calculated to produce a contrary impression. I defy any person to produce any evidence of such an act having been committed. The noble Earl must be aware that during a civil war, great dissatisfaction would be entertained by either party engaged in it, if they thought, from any accidental circumstances, that a greater leaning was shown by a neutral Government to one side than the other. Undoubtedly false conjectures and false rumours of this kind have prevailed in Portugal. It has not, however, been alone stated that the Government of this country are disinclined to favour the Queen of Portugal and Her Ministry; but it has been complained, in Oporto, that the British Government were interfering on behalf of the Queen in a way that would be injurious to those exertions which, as it was stated, were being made, not to establish a republic, or to place Don Miguel on the throne, but in the cause of the constitution. Whether that is so or not, it is not for me to say. I do not wish to pronounce any opinion upon the dissensions that prevail in that country; but this I am bound to state, that there has been no instruction given to the Admiral, to the Minister, or to the Special Envoy sent to that country, that has not had for its object the preservation of a perfect impartiality; and that in any advice which may have been respectfully tendered to the Government of Portugal, under virtue of any instruction on the part

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of Her Majesty's Government, the object has been fully conformable to those instructions, namely, to tender friendly counsel with a view to the interest of the Queen's cause, and with no design whatever to give the slightest countenance, directly or indirectly, to the insurrection. It has unquestionably been thought expedient that in circumstances such as these, during the crisis that at present impends over Portugal, the interests of England should be protected, not by a small squadron only, but by a squadron superior to that which any other Power was likely to send; but the commander who has been sent there the noble Earl well knows to be not only one of the ablest and most gallant of officers in Her Majesty's Navy, but a person remarkable for the care, the discretion, and the judgment with which, in all parts of the globe, he has uniformly administered the most important affairs; and I cannot bring myself to the belief that that gallant Admiral, instructed as he has been to exercise the greatest impartiality in these matters, has in any degree deviated from that instruction, or that anything has been done by him or others which is in the slightest degree calculated to militate against that which I have stated before, and which I state again, to be the anxious wish of Her Majesty's Government—that of non-interference in the civil difficulties in that country. I trust that those difficulties will be brought to a speedy termination; and it is the hope of the Government that that termination will be such as to make Her Majesty more secure on her constitutional throne.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHconfessed that he could not perceive any very constitutional spirit exhibited in the conduct of Her Majesty's Government in Portugal, which had led to this civil war; and perhaps, as he had been recently dismissed from office, he might feel very strong upon the subject. The Queen had imprisoned her outgoing Ministers until she had formed a new Administration. He must say, he was sorry to observe that by all these new constitutional Governments greater violations of constitutional principles and of personal liberty were committed, than under the harshest despotisms that ever existed. He had only one word to say on this subject. All representations were a mere farce, if it was not thoroughly understood that there was a measure behind them which was to be adopted if those representations were not attended to. If
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it were to be understood that the English Government merely desired, as a matter of favour to themselves, or as a matter of credit to the Government of Portugal, that the unfortunate gentlemen who had been referred to should not suffer death under torture on the coast of Africa, their Lordships could well understand that such representations would not be attended to. But if it had been distinctly understood that in the event of the representations of our Minister, whether private or official, not being acted upon, Sir W. Parker was ordered to leave the Tagus, he had not the slightest doubt that every representation made by the British Minister would at once have received attention. So far from thinking that the presence of the English squadron in the Tagus could be regarded as indicating any leaning on the part of our Government towards the insurgents, he believed that but for the presence of that squadron, the Queen of Portugal would have met Don Miguel in London. It was by that squadron that the Queen was now kept upon the throne; and if it was withdrawn, the conquering army would march at once from Oporto to Lisbon.
LORD BROUGHAMdid not agree entirely with any of the noble Lords who had taken part in this conversation, which was most irregular. He concurred, however, with his noble Friend who had just sat down, that if ever there was a non sequitur, it was this—that any one would conclude, from the presence of the British squadron in the Tagus to protect the Queen, that we were favouring the insurrection. He was very glad that the conversation which had taken place on this subject had elicited the statement of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lansdowne).
Subject at an end.

ADMINISTRATION OF THE CRIMINAL LAW—JUVENILE OFFENDERS.
LORD BROUGHAMrose, for the purpose of presenting a petition to their Lordships; and though it was rather unusual to give notice of an intention to present a petition, yet considering the persons who claimed the attention of the House, and the very important subject of their petition, he had deemed it his duty to take the unusual course of giving notice of his intention to present it. He considered himself to be highly honoured by having been made the medium of presenting this important petition to the House. The petition

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was signed by the Mayor of Liverpool, by Mr. Rushton, the officiating magistrate of Liverpool, and by nineteen other magistrates of that important borough; and he should best discharge his duty to those petitioners by bringing before their Lordships the substance of the petition, though not in terms, he was afraid, equally choice and distinct with those which were used in that very long, very able, and elaborate document. He had taken the pains to make himself acquainted with the subject-matter which he intended bringing under their Lordships' consideration by reading the different documents that had been published thereon, and which did not appear in the petition—he meant the reports of the prison inspectors in this country, the reports of the various persons connected with private associations of a philanthropic, benevolent, and useful nature, who had attended to the same very important subject of the execution of the criminal law in this country, as well as other documents which had been published in France, in Holland, and Germany, which showed the result of some most important experiments which had been tried in those countries for the reformation of offenders. From those different sources to which he had referred, and also from one which he should afterwards refer to generally, a very important work, the report upon the Criminal Law by his learned friend, Mr. Hill, the Recorder of Birmingham, whose experience in criminal judgments had been very extensive, and who had devoted his attention for years to this subject, presented to "The Society for the Amendment of the Law," and also from another report upon Criminal Law generally, which was to be found in the tenth number of The Law Review—he meant the report which had been drawn up by his learned friend, Mr. Pitt Taylor—he thought that he should be able to show their Lordships the necessity of a great change on the subject. He would not trouble their Lordships with reading to them extracts from the different sources of information of which he had availed himself; but he was about to embody the result of his inquiries, and give them the substance of the matter; and he was convinced that before he had proceeded far in his statement, their Lordships would admit that it was impossible to overrate the high importance of the subject to which this petition referred. The subject which he intended to bring under the consideration of their Lordships was neither more
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nor less than the structure of the criminal law of this country; the administration of that criminal law in practice; the execution of that criminal law upon the unhappy persons who, first being the victims of their own crimes and misconduct, afterwards became the victims of the law itself, when they were punished to deter others from following their bad example. He did not mean to discuss the subject at length, or elaborately, or with any sort of intention of exhausting it; he was merely going to call their Lordships' attention to the heads of this question, which formed the subject-matter of the Liverpool petition. Those Liverpool magistrates spoke as practical men; they spoke as men who lived in a community of 300,000 persons who were their fellow-citizens; and over whom they were placed as magistrates appointed to keep the Queen's peace, and to administer the Queen's law; these magistrates were the persons who came before their Lordships as the fountain of law, as the administrators of that law in the last resort, as the highest tribunal in this country, to which tribunal they naturally and legitimately looked—to such tribunal did these inferior but most respectable and experienced magistrates resort to unbosom their thoughts, to prefer their complaints, to warn them as to what would be the consequences of any longer neglecting this great subject; and it was to such things he was about to call their Lordships' attention. Some of their Lordships might, peradventure, not feel inclined to credit their statements; but if the state of things of which they complained was allowed to continue any longer, the consequences could hardly be foreseen, or if foreseen could scarcely be prevented. The results of the experience of these Liverpool magistrates, then, were these—that in this population of 300,000 persons, there had been committed for trial during the last seven years, in round numbers, 51,000 persons, and that of those persons no less than one-tenth, or more than 5,500, were offenders under seventeen years of age; that of the whole number of offenders, no less than 10,000—who were for the most part juvenile offenders—had been committed, during six years, five times each upon an average; and from this it appeared that the immediate and inevitable result of having punished those offenders once, was that, upon the average, they had been four times afterwards guilty, and four times punished—so powerful, so effectual, so undeniably efficacious, had

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been the punishments which the law had inflicted. These magistrates went further; they had made an investigation which he thought had been of incalculable value, and for which he hoped he might be permitted to tender their Lordships' thanks to those magistrates. They had examined fourteen cases, taken perfectly indiscriminately out of the 10,000 juvenile offenders to whom he had referred. He wished particularly to direct their Lordships' attention to this class of offenders, because what he was about to urge their Lordships was, to adopt the plan of reformatory discipline to which he had alluded the other night, when he took leave to address the House on the subject of education: he wished again to impress upon their Lordships the fact, that where criminals had attained a certain age, and had become habituated to crime and hardened to wickedness, reformatory discipline ceased to present such a prospect of effectual amendment. He, therefore, naturally looked to the younger classes of offenders, as the persons to whom this discipline could be applied with the greatest probability of success; and it was on that ground that he would beg their Lordships' attention to the experiments and statements of the magistrates in question. With regard to these 10,000 juvenile criminals, then, the Liverpool magistrates had adopted what appeared to him a very judicious plan—they did not select, but took at random from that number, fourteen boys, the circumstances of whose cases they minutely investigated. He had the result of that careful investigation in the petition before him, and he would give their Lordships one or two samples from it without going through the whole of it. In the first place, it appeared that each of the fourteen juvenile offenders had upon an average been apprehended fifteen times for crimes; that they had frequently been discharged without having been committed for trial; but that upon an average they had been committed for trial nine times, and generally as often convicted. He wished it to be clearly understood, that the number of 51,000 did not refer to persons or offences, but to actual convictions. Now, he would single out three instances from these fourteen to show the course of crime, the shape it took, and the consequences of committing a series of offences. The first case that he would take was that of a boy twelve years of age, who could neither read nor write; he was first committed in September, 1838, and last in January,
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1842; he was apprehended altogether sixteen times—and all that happened in the course of three years and two months—he was altogether committed for trial, and took his trial, nine times, and his sentences were various terms of imprisonment in gaol; and the excellent effect of that prison discipline appeared to be, that, having been once committed and imprisoned, he had been convicted eight times more within less than three years and a half, and that while still under twelve years of age, he had received another sentence, which was that of transportation for ten years to a penal colony. The next case he should single out was that of a boy ten years of age, who had been apprehended fourteen times, tried and convicted eleven times, and suffered various periods of imprisonment for different offences, in order to prevent him from committing similar acts in future; the consequences of which attempts at prevention were, that he had been arrested ten times, convicted, and, after the last conviction, sentenced to seven years transportation. The last case to which he would call their attention was that of a boy nine years of age, who could neither read nor write, who in the course of two years was apprehended sixteen times for felonies of different kinds, and convicted four times; and that boy, who when first convicted was only seven years of age, was now convicted and sentenced to transportation for seven years. He (Lord Brougham) had long been engaged more or less in the study of the administration of the criminal law of this country; but he was bound now to open his ears to the voice of wisdom speaking to him—he was bound not to shut his eyes to such a fearful state of things, and to the utter, absolute, and as he should show them, necessary inefficacy of the present system of law to repress crimes, or to cure the offenders. Now, these magistrates called their Lordships' attention to the expenses of these attempts to repress crime in the borough of Liverpool. The petitioners stated that 889 l. had been expended in dealing with the cases to which he had referred, or rather he meant the 120 prosecutions of those fourteen juvenile offenders; and they stated that no doubt any other prosecutor would have spent half as much more, for Liverpool happened to have availed itself, in common with many other large towns, of that admirable arrangement of entrusting all its criminal prosecutions to a public prosecutor. That practice had also been

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adopted in Scotland, and a better plan had never been thought of. Ever since his attention had been turned to these matters, he had seen the necessity of such an officer; and when he was last in office, in 1834, he had almost succeeded in carrying a Bill to compel the appointment of a public prosecutor in all large towns. By means of having such an officer, the expense of prosecution was little more than half what it was under the old system. But even under the present improved system, the expense of prosecuting these fourteen juvenile offenders, whom they chose to call "incorrigible offenders," amounted to within a trifle of 900 l. Now, said the magistrates (and he said with them, and for them, as well as for himself), after having the experience which he and they had had in Liverpool and elsewhere, was it not time to begin to reconsider the matter, and to ask themselves, "Have we not been all along pursuing a wrong path as to the punishment of offenders—have we not by our laws driven them to commit the crimes for which we punished them, with the view of preventing their recommission?" But, above all, when they took the young hoys of nine or ten or twelve years of age (for one unhappy boy who had been sentenced to seven years transportation was only nine years old, and only seven when he was first convicted), he would ask them whether they were dealing rightly with them under the present system? Were they taking the human being according to his knowledge, his vicious nature, his capacities, his failings, his judgment, his reason, as well as his passions? Were they dealing soundly, and judiciously, and usefully, and profitably with him in persisting to appeal only to his fears; and never—never once looking to his wishes or to his hopes? But he was only at present addressing their Lordships on the generalities of the question; and he would come at once to the details and remedies set forth in the petition of the Liverpool magistrates, because it was useless to complain of a system unless they were prepared to substitute a remedy for the evil. He did not intend to take their Lordships unawares on this question; he wished them to inquire and to excite their attention to these matters, for it was their highest duty to do so—it was one which they ought no longer to neglect, for if they did defer executing that duty properly and at once, they could not do so with impunity. Their Lordships, then, should see that it was their interest
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to inquire into this matter, and see whether a remedy could not be found. The experiment had been tried, and after a word as to the ground on which it proceeded, he would state to their Lordships the nature of the shape which it had taken in its operation and result. When they took a supposed criminal and cast him into prison, and tried, convicted, and sentenced him, they punished him either by one or two years imprisonment or by transportation, capital punishment being now almost universally abolished—he had had much experience with respect to capital punishment, and he knew that he differed with the petitioners and many others upon that subject—however, capital punishment had been altered, except as regarded one or two peculiar acts, to transportation or imprisonment. He was no friend to transportation; he saw many objections to it; it was anything rather than an economical or justifiable proceeding—it caused a very large amount of evil, and very serious mischief in cases where convicts were sent to a strictly penal colony. His principal objection against it was that it did not terrify; it did not appal; it did not appear to the eyes of a person who was about to commit an offence against the law half as terrible as if he knew that his sentence would he imprisonment even for a few weeks in this country. That was proved by the reports which he had lying before him from those magistrates of Liverpool and other magistrates, the reports of gaolers, and particularly the report of a most able person, the governor of the excellent prison at Glasgow, which he had read with the greatest interest. All these joined with one voice in stating it to be their decided opinion, after great practical experience, that imprisonment had far more terrors than transportation. Mr. Miller said that he had found that criminals would far rather be sent abroad to a penal settlement for ten years, than imprisoned for ten weeks in their own country. Then, what was the expense of transportation? Not less than half a million sterling. What would be the cost of keeping those same persons in confinement in this country for two years?—300,000 l. If the punishment of transportation did not deter men more, but less, than imprisonment—if it were the more expensive of the two, then it was wrong in every point of view—in its greater cost, in its effects upon the penal settlement, and in not deterring from the commission

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of crime—and it was less advisable as a punishment than imprisonment. But he now came to what was a most important portion of the magistrates' petition. It appeared that the united results of themselves, the various authorities abroad, in Germany, France, &c., to which he had before referred, and here also, of our country, in Warwickshire, of judges, of magistrates, in speculative writers, of Secretaries of State who had presided over the police of this country, all unanimously declared that punishment had no effect in deterring any but a very small portion of mankind from committing offences against the law. The fact was, that when men were about to commit a crime, they were not in that calm, reflecting, estimating frame of mind which such an argument would suppose; but they were inflamed by passion, and that passion closed their eyes to the danger and the risk they were about to run—they were sanguine as to the vast (as it would appear to them) chances of escape, and therefore it was that little or no effect was produced by the apprehension of punishment, which was administered for the purpose of deterring. What then remained? If they did punish men, they should at all events take care that those whom they did punish were not made worse by that punishment, than when they found them. That was the bounden duty of the Government towards those subjects who committed crime; because to say that a man forfeited his claims to the attention of a Government because he had been a criminal, was monstrous. And yet they did in effect say so. To say nothing of the number whom they transported, there were 96,000 whom they annually imprisoned, and after their sentences had expired they turned them out upon the world. But had imprisonment made them better? Had imprisonment kept them from being any worse than they were before? Had not imprisonment necessarily, in ninety-nine cases out of every hundred, loosened them in point of morals? If he wanted to prove that they had, he should refer them to those fourteen juvenile offenders taken at random out of 51,000 criminals by the magistrates at Liverpool, every one of whom had committed repeated offences; and youths of nine, ten, eleven, and twelve, the magistrates showed, had been arrested, some of them twenty-two, and convicted nineteen times. The great design of imprisonment should be not only to deter as to the future, but to produce, if at all possible, some moral effects.
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The greatest evil, however, which the poor convict had to contend with was, that after the termination of his sentence, when the term of his confinement expired, he did not know, when again thrown on the world, where to bestow himself. He went forth with his character marred—he went forth to encounter the indifference of his family connexions—he went out disgraced and degraded in his own eyes, and probably that was the very worst feature in his whole case, as it might prevent any exertion to restore himself to that self-respect which he once possessed, and perhaps well maintained; for when a man did possess self-respect in his own eyes it was calculated to infuse that energy which would ultimately put an end to the self-debasement and degradation which his crimes had thrown over and around him. The poor criminal went out debased in his own eyes, disgraced in the eyes of the community, and deserted by friends and relations, who looked upon his conduct as having inflicted on them a stain and a disgrace. As to the means of future subsistence, see how the criminal was placed. What master would employ him? Who would take him into his family? The stigma rested upon him, and there he stood an outcast from man. Look at the gaols, as well as at the convicts—and would it not be a wonder and astonishment if they ever produced a small quantity of good on the mind or on the habits of the criminal? and if the discipline did produce any good on its inmates, they were but too likely to relapse when permitted again to go forth to the world. Such was, in his opinion, the consequence of short imprisonment. Mr. Hill had given it as the result of his observation and experience, in his admirable report to the Law Amendment Society; and Mr. Pitt Taylor fully agreed with him in his report to the same society, that short periods of imprisonment were both futile and impolitic; and for this reason, which was as obvious a one as could be suggested, that such persons were sure to relapse again into their bad habits, from the impression that by their conduct they were cut off, if not for ever, yet for a long time, from their former friends and connexions. But if means had been adopted to improve the criminal—to improve his morals and character—to teach him to subdue his bad passions—to bring down his guilty feelings—to make him a conscientious, reasonable, and well-thinking person—and, above all things, to impress

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on him that he was for a long time to be cut off from his former associates—such a proceeding could not be without a beneficial effect. But if the criminal knew that after the expiration of six weeks, or of two or three months, that he was to be confined only for sixty or ninety days, when he should go forth to exercise his liberty of action—when he looked on confinement as being for a short period—he never would think of his own reformation. He was too apt to say, "It's only for a short time; every day diminishes the number; they will soon pass away, and then all will be well again." Short periods of confinement made the criminal harder instead of better—that was the opinion of Mr. Hill. The question, then, was, how could they make imprisonment reformatory, instead of being, as it was at present, injurious to the character of the inmates? Next, what means should be adopted to prevent the criminal, at the end of his sentence, from falling into his former evil courses? Fortunately, they were not without experience on these points. It was most honourable to the character of the Germans, that they had had, for the last ten or twelve years, an admirable institution, near Hamburgh, for the reformation of criminals; and, what was most honourable to Frenchmen, who were not influenced by that false or misplaced pride which would prevent them from following a foreign example, they had established a similar institution in Mettray, the results of which experiment were as satisfactory as could be expected. Having, however, very great national pride as an Englishman, he (Lord Brougham) believed that neither of those institutions were the first of their kind, as an excellent establishment of a similar character had existed at Dunsmore, in Warwickshire for more than twenty-eight years. Warwickshire had the distinguished honour of setting the example of acting on a sound and humane principle, the reformation of poor criminals. To show the effects of those experiments, he would take the French institution, as affording more details. The one at Mettray was first established in 1839, and since that period 521 boys had been admitted. The mode of proceeding was, they must be all male convicts, under sixteen years of age: they were not kept in actual confinement; for the fear of imprisonment was always held over their heads, as, if they behaved ill, they were again sent back to prison. The whole were distributed into families, each consisting
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of a master, two assistants, and forty convicts; the master was one of the officers of the establishment; the two assistants, who were called brethren, were convicts themselves, and were chosen by the rest, and no instance had ever been known in which an unworthy choice had been made. They were all taught some useful branch of industry; the majority of them were instructed in agriculture and gardening; their recreation consisted of military exercise and gymnastics; and they were periodically addressed on the subjects of practical religion and morality; they all regularly attended public worship; their food and clothing were of a plain description; they slept in dormitories, and were under the constant superintendence of the master and the two assistants. What was the result of all this? 521 male convicts had been received into that institution since its establishment in 1839; of those seventeen died; and twelve only were sent back to prison. What a fearful contrast did that present with the case of juvenile offenders in Liverpool — twelve only were sent back to prison, 144 were placed out in various situations, and the remainder were still in the establishment. He would call forth the 144 to elicit some facts. Of the 144, seven relapsed, nine were of doubtful character, but the remaining 128—a large proportion of the 144—conducted themselves to the full satisfaction of their employers and of the managers of the institution. What said the magistrates of Liverpool? Of the fourteen cases he had referred to, there was not one who had not committed seven different offences since his first committal. The French Government had liberally, even munificently, supported the Mettray institution by grants of money; it was also aided by private benevolence; it had also, to a certain degree, support from the work and labour of the convicts themselves—a rule which never should be lost sight of. Besides the one at Mettray, there had been twelve others of a similar character established in France, which were founded in consequence of the great success that attended the original institution. He owned, that, if he were animated with feelings of rivalry towards France—if he were animated by those national feelings of rivalry which pervaded the bosoms of Englishmen—those national feelings would lead him more to envy the French people for the erection and usefulness of such institutions, than from any glory they might have derived from their

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Algerian colonies, from their Spanish marriages, or even for all that redounded to the glory of Napoleon. He envied them for what they had, and which this country wanted — those noble and useful institutions. He hoped and prayed that ere long there would be an end to those trifling and personal differences which had their origin in mere trumpery objects, and that they might give themselves up to the promotion of objects of greater interest and importance. He did not care who was in the right, whether M. Guizot or his noble Friend. He wished they were both in the right, or, if possible, that they were both in the wrong; he cared not which, but he wished to see an end to those differences. He was heartily sick of them; and his hope was that the peace of this country, and of Europe, and of the world, would not be allowed to hang in suspense on any such trumpery matters. Let us rather rival their noble and generous nature by imitating them in the erection of twelve establishments similar to Mettray, and thus taking the first step towards the amendment of our criminal law, which would be the first real attempt that had ever been made since we had a criminal law. He would not then enter largely on those matters, except by referring to one or two facts as additional evidence of the necessity of some amelioration of the system pursued in this country. A most excellent clergyman, the Rev. John Clay, the chaplain of the Preston prison, examined the cases of 1,050 prisoners. Just observe the state in which all of them were—562 of the number were utterly unable to write, 226 were unable to read; so that 788 of the 1,050 were in a state of utter ignorance. Only see the effect of this ignorance; 514, nearly the one half, did not know the names of the months—527 did not know the Queen's name—although now nearly ten years the reigning Monarch of the Empire—290 were utterly incapable to understand the words "virtue," "vice," "guilt," "sin," yet they knew what was the import of the words "thieving," "picking pockets;" but when the clergyman spoke to them of "virtue" and "vice," he spoke in an unknown tongue—62 of them could not count 100; 242 could read and write a little; of the whole 1,050 only 20, or two per cent, could be said to have had any education. While he was, as was well known, the warm friend of education, there was no inconsistency in his saying, that unless education
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had a moral and religious direction, it was with him a matter of doubt whether to be able merely to read was not productive of more harm than good. It gave but the power to read those detestable and demoralising productions which teemed from the press to promote the detestable, the sordid objects of writers and publishers. Those who had the mere power to read, perused only the narratives of banditti, of swindlers, of thieves; they filled their minds with that species of information which only polluted, and which proceeded from the polluted press of this country—and not only from the press of this country, but also from the press of Paris. It was to him a matter of astonishment and disgust that that enlightened capital should issue publications which, while in many instances they were of an order suited to the superior forms of life, yet had within them poison, secretly and ingeniously elaborated. But to return. It appeared that the proportion of persons who were convicted in North Lancashire, which was an agricultural district, was as 1 to 1,100, and the proportion in South Lancashire as 1 to 500; and that was a necessary consequence between those who lived in agricultural districts and those who lived in manufacturing districts, between living in the country and living in towns. When they considered the immense extent of the manufacturing districts at present, they could not now go on with the same system of legislation they did formerly; they could not proceed in the same course of punishment, with a view to reform offenders, that was pursued in former times. Since the days of the inventions of Arkwright, the importation of cotton had increased from 5,000,000 lbs. to 333,000,000 lbs.; the cotton factories also professed having increased eighty-two fold. Instead, therefore, of having only a few thousand operatives employed, there were now 800,000; some said 1,500,000. There were at present 300,000 hand-loom weavers. Why did he recite those facts? For this reason, that machinery was constantly invading manual power; there was a perpetual struggle going on between both. God forbid that he should object to machinery, because the more machinery carried the day, the more men would get employment, and that in the end would be an advantage to the factories and to the workmen. Ay, but not immediately; there would be an interval. When the power-looms threw 100,000 hand-loom weavers out of work,

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and when a single boy or girl could do four times as much as the strongest man by the power-loom, there was of necessity an interval, until the effects were allowed time to subside, and there was now going on the same struggle between those two powers, the power of machinery and that of manual power. What was the consequence of that struggle before? Those who were thrown out of employment were prone to get into bad practices, for it was a grievous consideration that those who were employed in factories, at the rate of 25 s. or 30 s. a week, made no provision for the "bad day;" and the consequence was, when thrown out of employment, they fell into bad habits. But such conduct on their parts, so far from being an apology for their Lordships to dispense with their duty, was a reason why it should be sedulously and diligently performed; and therefore he asked that the criminal law should be so modified as to make it subservient to the reformation of criminals. That object would be best accomplished by deterring from guilt; but where guilt was found, they ought not only to reform the offender, but to make such provision that the criminal who sinned once should have afforded to him some means of avoiding its repetition. It was with that view he brought that most important subject before their Lordships. If, therefore, their Lordships agreed with him—if they agreed in the sentiments put forth by the petitioners—if they thought the time was come when they ought to apply themselves to the amendment of the administration of the criminal law, and particularly that law as it regarded prison discipline and the reformation of prisoners—particularly as to the mode that should be adopted in dealing with offenders—then their Lordships would be prepared for the proposition he was about to submit, which was, that they would comply with the prayer of those excellent and worthy petitioners, the wealthy and enlightened magistrates of Liverpool, by the appointment of a Committee to take into consideration that most important subject the amendment of the criminal law.
The DUKE of RICHMONDwas most anxious to express his concurrence in what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend—that the thanks of that House and of the country were due to those magistrates who had brought under their consideration the information which was embodied in their petition. And he also felt it his duty to thank his noble and learned Friend for his able and perspicuous statement.
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There was nothing which so much demanded the serious consideration of that House as the continual increase of juvenile crimes. While strict prison discipline was necessary, and while it might have done good, yet some effectual measures were required to check this alarming increase of crime. A child of the age of nine years, who had no education, was sent out by its unnatural parent to commit offences. The child was taken in the fact, it was sent into prison—there it was allowed to remain for three or six weeks, or perhaps for two months, before it was brought to trial, subjected to all the influence of evil example; then the form of impannelling a jury was gone through; twelve men were appointed to investigate the case of a child—who was charged with a petty theft, perhaps not amounting in value to one penny. Thus was stamped on the brow of that infant the word "felon," and from that moment he only progressed in infamy. The matter demanded inquiry. They were told that the experiment at Mettray, in which there were located 500 persons, had succeeded; but they had no information whether those criminals were received as they came to the institution, or whether a selection for admission had been made from among the offenders. But whatever was the course that might have been taken, the results as stated by his noble and learned Friend, were gratifying. He was most anxious for inquiry; but there was another thing which it was necessary to do. You must try and convince the people of this country that it was possible for prisoners to be thoroughly reformed: unfortunately, the general feeling of this country was, that when a man was once convicted he could not get employment. He knew a remarkable instance of this. A man had committed some offence, for which he was sentenced to be transported, but he was committed to Pentonville prison; he there showed symptoms of reformation, and his conduct was so good that the Secretary of State was induced to grant him a pardon. Some one afterwards recommended him to a railway company—he would not name the company—from whom he obtained an appointment as porter. His conduct was so good, that at the end of six months he was promoted, and had his wages increased. A month after, an ill-natured busybody told the directors of the company that this man had been convicted of felony; the consequence was he was dismissed. It was, therefore, necessary, not only to reform

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form criminals, but to show the public that they could be reformed, and that they were reformed; that they might have the opportunity to earn for themselves an honest livelihood. It would not do, however, to take a boy of, say twelve years of age, suppose from the Parkhurst prison, to the institution you might establish, and when reformed to put him in a better position than the boy who had never offended. By such a proceeding they might only get themselves into a worse scrape. The noble and learned Lord stated that the idea of transportation had not any great effect on the minds of criminals. He was not the advocate of transportation; but from what came to his own knowledge, offenders had a great dislike to leave the country: they dreaded transportation more than any other punishment. Offenders when sentenced to transportation often fell into fits, from which they did not recover until the next morning; they did not like to be sent out of the land of their birth; the reciprocal affection of the father and the condemned son, and of the wife and the condemned husband, was as strong in those criminals as it was in those who never offended against any law. He had seen many offenders sentenced to transportation bitterly weep on the mention of the names of their wives and children, at the idea of perpetual separation. The effect produced was great indeed. He should be glad if his noble and learned Friend carried out this inquiry—it was of enormous importance that existing evils should be remedied. He had so strong a feeling on the subject, that he presented many petitions in the course of the last year, praying that some means might be devised to promote the reformation of criminals after they were discharged from prison. He hoped his noble and learned Friend would not confine the inquiry to one subject, but that he would embrace all that was necessary to secure all the important objects contemplated. He did not like that part of the plan of the Mettray establishment which allowed 400 or 500 individuals to sleep in dormitories. He would prefer separate rooms, as it was of importance to make those arrangements which would prevent prisoners from getting worse. He would apologize for trespassing; but he could not allow the opportunity to pass without pressing the subject on their Lordships' attention.
EARL GREYsaid, the subject was one of the very deepest interest, and he had the satisfaction of stating, that a few days
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ago he had presented papers which he trusted would be delivered to-morrow or next day, and which would show that it was one that had not escaped the most anxious consideration of Her Majesty's Government. It would be found that many of the views which had been stated by his noble and learned Friend, were the same as those on which the Government proposed to act. The necessity of a reform of the existing system with respect to the class of offenders referred to, was so clear, that he apprehended there could not be a difference of opinion on that point; and he was enabled to state that a Bill would almost immediately be brought in in the other House giving the necessary legislative power for the reforms wanted.
LORD BROUGHAMinquired why the Bill should not be introduced in that House?
EARL GREYsaid, there was no reason, except that the subject came within the department of his right hon. Friend in the other House, and that, therefore, it was more likely to be introduced there. With regard to the system for the reformation of juvenile offenders in practice abroad, and which his noble Friend had so eulogized, he would observe that the state of the law was such as to impede its adoption here. Here, a boy's being withdrawn from prison to be put into one of those reformatory institutions, implied his being pardoned; and, as if he were discharged for ill conduct, he could not be sent back to prison, a premium on misconduct was offered him. The reverse was the case in France; and one of the provisions of the Bill to which he had referred, would be to alter the law in this respect. By the late Minute of the Privy Council on Education, also, it was proposed to establish what would be called "penal schools" in London, to which not merely children guilty of offences would be sent, but also the children of vagrants. In the papers which he had laid on the Table, they would also find that a great alteration was proposed in the system of transportation. The whole views of the Government on these subjects, had been detailed in a letter written by his right hon. Friend at the head of the Home Department and himself, which would also be found in these papers; and in them would also be found an account of the results of the system of transportation, especially to Norfolk Island, which he feared would make their Lordships shudder.
LORD BROUGHAMrose again to supply an omission. He had omitted to state that Captain Maconochie was of opinion that the imprisonment of juvenile offenders ought to be regulated, not by time, but by their own conduct. He would have a system of marks, and by the acquisition of good marks a convict might be enabled to work out his own release. No doubt offenders must be condemned for a certain time; but they might be permitted to reduce that time by evidences of reformation. He agreed with Mr. Hill in thinking that they ought not to be sentenced to too short a period of imprisonment, in order to leave a useful power in the hands of those who had the care of them. The plan was ingenious, and he thought that no small advantage might be derived from it. At all events, every one must acknowledge that Mr. Hill's plan was a step in the right direction. One of the magistrates of Birmingham, who had paid much attention to this subject, was in the habit of sending for the guardians, or those who had the care of the young offenders whom it happened to be his duty to sentence; and when he found them to be persons of any respectability, he exacted from them a promise, which they usually fulfilled, that they would watch over the conduct of the child who had been been betrayed into the commission of a guilty act. He then imposed a nominal fine, and dismissed the convict with an admonition. This system had for some years been in operation; and the result of inquiries upon the subject had shown that greater improvement was effected by it than by imposing long terms of imprisonment.
Petition to lie on the Table.
House adjourned.