Sitting of 27 April 1847

MINUTES.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. W. Baillie and Mr. E. Ellice, from several places, against the Marriage (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. Hume, from Leeds, for Inquiry respecting the Rajah of Sattara.—By Sir De L. Evans, from London and Westminster, for Alteration of the Law relating to Coffee House Keepers, &c—By Mr. Spooner, from Thomas Barber Wright, John Harlow, and Thomas Clutton Salt, of Birmingham, and from Members of the Stock Exchange of Edinburgh, for Consideration respecting the Currency. — By several hon. Members, from a great many places, against the proposed Plan of Education.—By Sir T. D. Acland and other hon. Members, from several places, in favour of the proposed Plan of Education.—By Mr. Frewen, from William Holmes, of Arundel, Sussex, for Alteration of the Law of Entailed Estates.—By Mr. J. Tollemache, from Wallasey, in favour of the Health of Towns Bill.—By Mr. Hastie, from Paisley, for an Efficient Poor Law (Ireland).—By Mr. S. Crawford, and Lord J. Russell, from several places, against the Introduction of a certain Clause into the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. P. Bennet, from Hadleigh, for Repeal or Alteration of the Poor Removal Act.—By Mr. G. Philips, from Poole, in favour of the Ports, Harbours, &c. (1846) Bill.—By Mr. Beckett, from Leeds, for the Suppression of Promiscuous Intercourse.—By Mr. £. Ellice, from the East of Fife Railway Company, against the Railways Bill.— By Mr. W. Baillie and Mr. E. Ellice, from several places, against the Registering of Births, &c. (Scotland) Bill.—By Lord Norreys, from Guardians of the Poor of the Headington Union, for Alteration of the Law of Settlement.—By Mr. Bankes, from Holwell, for Inquiry respecting the Sherbourne Union.—From Farmers and Graziers, against the Removal of Smithfield Market. —By Mr. Duncan, from Dundee, for Alteration of the Law respecting the Transference of Heritable Property (Scotland).

JUDGES TAKING FEES (SCOTLAND).
MR. WATSONput a question to the Lord Advocate, of which he had given him notice. It related to the Scotch Judges. It had been stated that the Scotch Judges, the Lords of Session, engaged in the arbitration of private suits, and received fees from the parties for so doing. He begged to know if this were the practice, and, if it were, whether the Lord Advocate approved of it?
The LORD ADVOCATEhad to state that he was not aware of the prevalence of any such practice as that the Scotch Judges undertook the arbitration of private suits, and received fees for their services. He thought he could state distinctly that the Scotch Judges were not in the habit of doing so. He knew many Scotch Judges who on every occasion and unconditionally
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had refused to take arbitrations in private suits; he believed, however, that there were Judges who in some cases, in reference to peculiar circumstances, and upon the extreme urgency of the parties, had condescended to take arbitrations, and had decided certain points in difference as referees; but he was not aware of any case in which it had interfered with the official discharge of any duty. If the hon. and learned Member alluded to a recent case which had caused some discussion, he could say that the Judge who took the arbitration did so at the most urgent entreaty of both parties. The reference was decided at a time when the Judge had no official business nor duty to perform, and no fee or other remuneration had been accepted. The hon. and learned Gentleman had been pleased to ask his opinion whether he approved of such a practice? Perhaps, having stated that there were some Judges who had on particular occasions taken arbitrations, it would be hardly fair for him to express an opinion. At the same time he had no hesitation in stating that he thought those Judges who had refused to take arbitrations, under any circumstances or on any consideration, had adopted the better course.
MR. WATSONwished to know whether fees had been taken by the Judges on any occasion?
The LORD ADVOCATEthought that the hon. and learned Member pressed him a little too hard; but he was not aware that in any case fees had been given to the Judges. Did the hon. and learned Member mean to make any charge?
MR. WATSON: None at all.
The LORD ADVOCATE: I am not aware that fees were ever taken.

LORD DALHOUSIE'S ACT.
MR. NEWDEGATE, seeing the head of the Railway Commissioners in his place, wished to put a question to him respecting what was commonly called Lord Dalhousie's Act, concerning joint-stock companies, and consequently railway companies. He was aware that a similar question to that he proposed to put had been already asked by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, and that the answer had been that some legal provisions would be introduced to amend Lord Dalhousie's Act. The consequence of the answer had been, that numerous petitions from persons concerned in railway companies which had failed in carrying out their objects had been delayed. In those petitions they set forth, that owing

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to the decision of the Bankruptcy Commissioners that the assent of the shareholders must be procured before a company can be declared bankrupt, and to the expense contingent upon proceedings at law and in equity, as shown in the case of Small and Attwood, they were in a most unhappy position. They hoped therefore that Government would declare itself one way or the other, and bring forward some Bill to amend Lord Dalhousie's Act during the present Session.
MR. STRUTTcould not answer for any department but his own: he had no intention during the present Session of bringing in any such Bill. True it was that one or two applications had been made to the board; but the Commissioners saw no immediate necessity for the introduction of any such Bill.

NEWFOUNDLAND.
SIR J. PAKINGTONadverted to the present state of Newfoundland, and to the Act which, having expired in September last, had been renewed in the last Session. He wished to know what were the intentions of Government as to that colony in the present Session. Was it meant again to legislate temporarily or permanently? and if permanently, would any material change be made in the Act of 1842?
MR. HAWESsaid, that the hon. Baronet was quite correct in what he had said respecting the existing state of the law. It was absolutely necessary to pass a new Act, and it was intended to be of a permanent character. Under it the old constitution would be allowed to revive; but at the same time the powers vested by the Act of 1842 in the Queen, as regarded electoral districts and simultaneous voting, would be continued. With that single change the old constitution would be revived.

THE WRECK OF THE TWEED.
SIR W. JAMESstated, that he had not long since presented a petition to the House, taking notice of an intention on the part of Her Majesty's Government to bestow a medal upon the persons who had assisted in saving the lives which were in danger of being lost at the wreck of the Tweed. The petition to which he referred had been signed by several eminent artists—all that they desired was a fair competition and a fair opportunity of proving themselves worthy to share some portion of the patronage of the Crown. He wished to
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know from the noble Lord at the head of the Government whether the hopes entertained by the petitioners stood any chance of being realized?
LORD J. RUSSELLreplied, that the First Lord of the Admiralty had been in communication with Mr. Wyon on the subject, and he believed that the medal was to be supplied by the usual artist. He had reason to know that the grant of the medal had given great satisfaction.

SEAMEN'S ENLISTMENT.
SIR C. NAPIERrose to move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Seamen's Enlistment Act. The naval force of this country consisted of nearly 100 sail of the line, besides frigates and smaller vessels, together with upwards of 150 steam-boats. Since the peace no attempt had been made to establish a regular system for manning the Royal Navy, although he believed that every foreign State had adopted some system of the kind. In Prance very stringent regulations were in force under the name of conscription; the men were collected from various provinces, and were compelled to serve for five years. The consequence was that the French Government could man its Navy much more rapidly, though by no means so efficiently, as our Government. In Russia, Denmark, and Sweden, a system had also been established; and this country was almost a solitary exception to the rule. True it was that the right hon. Member for Dorchester (Sir J. Graham) had introduced a Registration Bill, under which all seamen were registered, and an Enlistment Bill, by which the Crown was enabled to call upon men to serve. Those Bills were strongly opposed by the mercantile marine, and it was not without considerable difficulty that they were carried. He now came to Sir James Graham's Enlistment Bill. By that Bill the Government had authority to issue proclamations calling on all seamen in Great and Ireland to come within five days and volunteer to serve in Her Majesty's Navy. If they did so volunteer, they received a double bounty, which amounted to something like 5l. in the case of an able seaman: if they did not, they rendered themselves liable to impressment at any moment. It also gave power to Her Majesty's naval officers to board merchant ships at sea, or in harbour, and to offer the men half an hour to decide whether they would volunteer. That was certainly rather sharp practice; but he did not think that the

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power which the State possessed at present was one whit too great. For instance, suppose it was found necessary suddenly to increase the Navy four or five sail of the line, without some such power it would be impossible to find men for them. It was clearly proved in 1840 and 1841, when it became necessary to increase the Navy in the Mediterranean, that to depend on voluntary enlistment was totally out of the question. The great objection to Sir James Graham's Bill, however, was, that in the event of the Government requiring an addition to its naval force of two or three thousand men, they had no other means of getting seamen than by calling out the whole of the seamen in the merchant service, and subjecting themselves to an expenditure of 300,000 l. or 400,000 l. In the case of a popular war, though perhaps only a few thousand men might be wanted, the probability was that some 20,000 or 30,000 men would come forward in the hope of receiving the double bounty, the consequence of which would be that the whole commercial navy would be deranged, whilst immense expense and inconvenience would be occasioned. The measure which he proposed, instead of adding to the expense, would cause a considerable saving to the country; and he really did not see how any one in that House could possibly object to it. It would have given him great satisfaction if the Government had brought forward the measure; but as the Admiralty had not, he felt it to be his duty to introduce the measure himself. His proposition was, that Her Majesty should call out at any time, in peace or war, by proclamation, whatever seamen might at any time be required. The registered men would be called on in rotation, as they came out of their apprenticeship, for one, two, three, or four years. They should first try to gain the number by voluntary means; hut, when that failed, then they should issue a proclamation, calling on those who had been one year released from their apprenticeship to come forward; then, if these were not sufficient, call on those two years out of their time, and so on. He would not have any impressment; but he would have it so ordered that no merchant ships should be allowed to ship any seamen who were thus called out. His object was in the first place to get the number of men they required in the time of peace—to enable, in fact, the Crown to call them out whenever they might be required, without waiting until
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the country was actually engaged in a war. He thought it reasonable, however, that the seamen should not receive double bounties until war had actually commenced; and he would limit the word "war" to actual hostilities with one of the great nations of Europe, or with North America, leaving it optional with the Government either to give the bounty or refuse it in such cases as the war in Syria or China. To the horrible system of impressment, he trusted they should never again revert; indeed, he was quite certain this country would never tolerate the system of impressment again. At all events, he was certain the seamen would not stand it; if they did, all he could say of them was, that they would be great fools. Then, with regard to pressing men on shore. In the time of war, a man could not walk about the streets of London without being picked up. No man was safe, nobody was respected; and had the Speaker himself happened to be walking near the dock, he would certainly have been carried away. The House might have been waiting for their Speaker, while the Speaker himself might have been caged up in the press-room of the guard-ship anchored off the Tower. The men who were pressed were denied the use of ink or paper, and before they could find out where they had got to, they were shipped off, to the Nore. To such a system it would be impossible again to have recourse. He trusted the Government would open their eyes and do all in their power to favour voluntary enlistment. Even with all the inducements they could use, they could not wholly succeed. A north-country sailor, who traded to Hull or to Newcastle, regarded the service on board a man-of-war with horror, and would not, on any persuasion, enter the Navy. He thought they ought to begin at once, and do something to alter the present condition of things. He believed that if this Amendment were agreed to, the seamen would soon get accustomed to it, and it would not be considered a hardship. It would place this country in a position to meet any great emergency that might arise, and he begged to press it upon the attention of the House.
MR. WARDsaid, it was not his intention to give any opposition to the introduction of the proposed Bill. He had not yet seen it; and he could take no share in the merit if it succeeded, or any part of the responsibility if it failed. It was a very large and difficult subject, so large and so difficult that the hon. and gallant Member had

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himself complained of the indisposition of every Government to interfere with it. He should be most happy to see any practical and practicable mode suggested in the Bill for accomplishing what was so desirable, viz., the laying the foundation for a naval reserve in this country, and the turning to some advantage the extensive machinery of the Registration Act, which up to this time had produced very little benefit.
Leave given.

DECIMAL COINAGE.
DR. BOWRINGrose to move a Resolution, the effect of which would be the introduction of a decimal system into our coinage, and its adoption into our mode of keeping accounts. He was glad to have received much encouragement in a great variety of communications with which he had been favoured, all showing that the public mind was prepared for the changes he proposed; and that there was a general conviction of the great advantages of a decimal system of coinage, over the complex system now existing. Among many schemes, that which he was about to suggest met with the most general acceptance. He knew how strung was the feeling—the prejudice he might say—in favour of existing habits and usages; and that in this country, more than anywhere else, the question was less about the quo eundum est, than the quo itur. But still the recommendations of a decimal system were so many, and so obvious, that its introduction could not be long delayed. Every man who looked at his ten fingers, saw an argument for its use, and an evidence of its practicability. His suggestion was simply to divide the pound sterling into one thousand farthings, and this would give all the needful elements for a perfect system of decimal coinage. He would preserve the pound sterling as the integer or point of unity. It had been associated with our accounts, and with our currency, from almost immemorial time; and was in fact a very convenient starting post for decimal division. Professor De Morgan, and many other eminent men, concurred in the suggestion of dividing that pound sterling into a thousand parts, and accommodating our coinage to the centesimal and decimal divisions. The Arabic numerals so admirably adapted to a decimal system, seemed to point to that system as a necessary consequence of their introduction; for though the Romans seemed to have had some gleams of the advantages
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of a decimal currency, their numerals would not easily accommodate themselves to it, nor indeed to any arithmetical calculations. The decimal system had made great progress through the civilized world. At this moment, it was used by more than half the great human family. With three or four exceptions, it had been adopted by all the nations of Europe—in the vast Russian empire, from Kamschatka to the Baltic —from the Euxine and the Caspian to the White Sea—and through the wide regions of China, with its more than 300,000,000 of souls. In proposing this change, it was his object to interfere as little as possible either with the names or values of existing coins. He suggested no new copper coinage, but a very slight diminution of the value of the farthing, halfpenny, and penny, so that, instead of representing the 1–960th, l–480th, and l–240th of a pound sterling, they should pass for the l–1000th, l–500th, and l–250th parts. The gold coinage would remain without any alteration; and in the silver he should propose to introduce two new coins, namely, the two-shilling piece, which he suggested might be called a "Queen," and which would be the tenth part of a pound sterling; and another piece to represent the tenth of the queen, or the l-100th part of the pound sterling, to which he proposed giving the name of "Victoria" —in both cases designating the era in which the decimal system had been adopted. Thus in the gold currency, the sovereign would represent 1,000 farthings—the half sovereign 500 farthings, or half the pound. In the silver coins, the crown would represent 250 farthings, or the fourth of a pound; the half crown 125 farthings, or the eighth of a pound; the queen 100 farthings, or the tenth of a pound; the shilling fifty farthings, or the twentieth of a pound; the sixpence twenty-five farthings, or the fortieth of a pound; and the victoria ten farthings, or the 100th of a pound; and the copper coinage would still represent farthings, half pence, and pennies, being 1,000th, 500th, and 250th parts of a pound. They should on the first new issues be reduced to the extent of four per cent. that is to say, 1,000 instead of 960 farthings would go to the pound sterling. If a new system had to be introduced, there might be some advantage in calling the farthings mils or millimes, the victorias cents or centimes, the queens decs, dimes or decimes; but on the whole he was disposed to retain the ancient names, as they would at once present associations

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of value, and, as he believed, facilitate the early application and universal adoption of the system. The two new silver coins would be exceedingly convenient. The two-shilling piece, from its form and weight, would soon become popular, and in fact the most useful of all the silver coins. Having made some inquiries, he was able to say that its size would allow it to be a beautiful specimen of monetary art. Its value, the double shilling, would be understood by everybody; it would be about half a dollar, the coin which, perhaps of all others, is best known through the commercial world, and it nearly represents the Austrian florin, which has a wide circulation. The victoria would be the smallest of the silver coins, representing the 100th part of the pound sterling, or 2⅖d. of existing currency, which to the popular mind would be nearly allied to 2½;d. This coin is about the value of the vellon rial of Spain, which is the point of unity of the Spanish currency. It has been objected that it would be too small for common use; but he begged to remind the House, that it would not be much smaller than the silver penny in the time of Edward the Third, which was then the only currency in the realm—the only recognised coin of the land. Our pounds, shillings, and pence, in the Saxon period, no doubt represented an unvarying quantity of silver, the penny being twenty-four grains, the ounce twenty pennies, and the pound twelve ounces, the weight and the tale being identical; but gradual depreciations brought down the pound sterling from 5,760 to 1,614 grains, the present standard, so that the value of the currency had been reduced, nearly three fourths. At and after the Conquest, down to the time of Edward the First, the penny weighed twenty-two and a half grains. Edward the First reduced it to twenty-two grains, and Edward the Third to twenty grains; and he first coined two-pences and fourpences, that is, half greats and greats, weighing forty and eighty grains. The present weight of a silver penny is about 6⅔ grains; so that the new coin would weigh about eighteen grains, which, he repeated, would be about the size of the whole currency of England in the fourteenth century. The introduction of a decimal system in France, with whatever resistance it had been originally met, was now a matter of universal congratulation. No man could be found in that country who did not acknowledge its benefits. It
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had supplanted a currency of pounds, shillings, pence, and farthings—the livre, sol, denier, and liard. These had been replaced with francs and centimes; and though sometimes the old names were heard, they introduced no confusion; and the National Assembly, by the establishment of the decimal currency, was everywhere recognised as having conferred an immense benefit upon the country. From France the good example had spread to Italy, where many of the States had adopted a decimal system. In Lombardy and the Venetian provinces, it was introduced in 1823, and accounts were kept in lire (value about 8d.), or soldi, being l–10th, and centesimi, being l–100th of the lira. Ducats and zecchins were heard of in conversation, but not employed in accounts. In Sardinia, the decimal system of francs and centimes was adopted. In the Roman States, the scudo, being worth about 4s. 4d., was divided into 10 paoli and 100 bajocchi, so that they enjoyed a complete decimal system of currency and account. In Tuscany, though the phraseology of pound, shilling, and pence, lire, soldi, and danari, is retained, the lira is practically divided into 100 cents. In Naples, all is decimal accountancy, the ducat being ten carlini—the carlino ten grains. Holland, a country like our own strongly wedded to antique doctrines and usages, abandoned her ancient currency in 1811, and adopted the decimal system, dividing the florin, equal to 20 d., into 100 cents, and coining the Willem, equal to ten florins. The old silver coinage is already beginning to disappear, and the gold of the former coinage passes by weight instead of tale. The Dutch colonies had not been slow to follow the example of the mother country. Belgium, immediately after her separation from Holland, introduced the French decimal system of coins, weights, and measures, though at first the public accounts were kept both in florins and francs: the use of the florins continued only a short time; both coins and calculations had disappeared, and francs and centimes were now universally adopted and with universal approval. The Zollverein, which had to accommodate itself to a very great variety of coins, weights, and measures, made an important step towards a decimal system by recognising no weight but the centner of l00lbs. Prussian, and no coins but the dollar of thirty groschen, and the florin of sixty kreutzers. Several of the Swiss States had introduced

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the decimal divisions, by making the Swiss franc represent 100 cents. Decimal coinage and decimal accounts were universal in the extensive Russian empire, with its 70,000,000 of inhabitants, the rouble, consisting of 100 copecks, being established over all the territory. In Greece, one of the earliest results of the revolution was the adoption of a decimal currency, the only coins of account being the phœnix or drachma (of about 8½d. sterling), and its hundredth part, the lipta. Portugal and the Brazils both enjoyed a decimal system, their milrei being divided into 1,000 reis, precisely as he proposed to divide the pound sterling into a thousand farthings. Through the United States of America the decimal coinage prevailed— the dollar with its 100 cents—and the same system had already made its way into Mexico, Central America, and many other transatlantic communities. He had already stated that the whole Chinese population reckoned by tens, and that a decimal mode of calculation and account had existed in that empire from the remotest times. Even into the Ottoman dominions the decimal system was penetrating. In Egypt, all the coinage of Mahomet Ali represented decimal divisions, there being in copper the one and the five paras; in silver, the ten and twenty paras, the one, five, ten, and twenty piastres; and in gold, five, ten, twenty and 100 piastres. In Persia, too, the decimal coinage prevailed; ten floose make the danim, ten danims the mahmoudy, and 100 mahmoudies the tomand. Without going farther, and wearying the House with other details, he thought he had established his case, and showed the ease with which his suggestions might be adopted. Would Great Britain stand alone with her complicated and entangled system, so unintelligible to foreigners, and often so embarrassing to her own subjects? Every European country except Spain, Denmark, and Sweden, had given us satisfactory evidence of the benefits of the change he suggested; and it was little honour to us to lag behind the civilized world. All the puzzles and perplexities of compound addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, would be got rid of by the simplicity of decimal calculation; all interest would be reckoned by the simplest processes of multiplication; and a short experience of the advantages of a decimal system would produce only a feeling of wonder that we should have so long toler-
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ated the existing state of our coinage, currency, and accounts. He did not at present propose a change in our system of weights and measures. That change would naturally follow upon the improvements he now suggested. The Resolution he had to propose for the approval of the House was—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, requesting that She will be graciously pleased to authorize the issue of Coins representing the value of two shillings, being the tenth of a pound sterling, and two pence and two-fifths, being the hundredth part of a pound sterling, such Coins to be called Queens and Victorias, or any other name which to Her Majesty may seem best."
MR. HUMEseconded the Motion. The subject had been for twenty-two years before the House. Mr. Davies Giddy and other gentlemen made a report to the House many years ago, recommending the adoption of the decimal system; and, after all that had taken place in Europe since that period, the larger portion of the Continent having adopted a decimal currency, no further delay ought to take place in introducing it into this country. He did not complain of the Mint Master for not bringing the subject before the House—"present company were always excepted." But former Mint Masters had been lax in their duty, and were not sufficiently aware of the fact, that to save time in trade and commerce was to save money. He should be happy to see an inquiry take place into the subject as to the effect of adopting a decimal system of keeping accounts. For himself, he had no doubt whatever that every merchant who now kept five clerks would be able to do with one less under a decimal system of coinage and weights and measures. The consequence of the present system was, that, in the higher classes in this country, he scarcely ever met a man of property who understood accounts. He did not think this subject was best dealt with by a debate, for it had not yet sufficiently received the attention of the community. An American merchant told him, that no one who had been in an accountant's office in this country had any idea of the saving of time and trouble in the American system of decimal accounts, compared with the cumbrous and intricate system of this country. The people of England were accustomed to look upon the Chinese as a nation of barbarians; but the decimal system had been in operation in that country for many centuries, and there was not an accountant in England who could calculate

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so quietly as the Chinese with his ten balls. The decimal system would make a calculator of every villager, which would probably be of some use in saving them some farthings. He hoped the Government, so far from throwing any obstacles in the way of so desirable a change, would afford every facility for the introduction of the decimal system.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the mover of the Resolution, the hon. Member for Bolton, and the seconder, the hon. Member for Montrose, did not agree in what they recommended to the Government. The hon. Member for Bolton recommended the Government immediately to issue two descriptions of coin; and the hon. Member for Montrose recommended a Committee of Inquiry as to the best mode of introducing a decimal system; but his opinion was, that neither recommendation ought to be adopted. He was not by any means insensible to the advantages which were to be derived from a decimal system—a system which had been adopted more or less in a great many countries of Europe, and which had afforded very great facility in keeping accounts. It was a system which, if adopted by common consent in this country, would be found to effect a very great improvement in that respect; but he would remind the House that there was hardly anything with respect to which the minds of people, or perhaps their prejudices, were more difficult to change, than the coinage of their country. In France, the decimal system was adopted; but in many parts of that country, after the fiery ordeal of the Revolution, the people maintained the old denominations of coin. [Dr. BOWRING: Not of weights.] No, not of weights; but he was proceeding to show that no violent attempt ought to be made to introduce a decimal system. The introduction of such a system ought to be effected gradually, and in such a manner that the people might gradually become accustomed to the use of that description of coinage; and if that were done, he had no doubt that they would finally adopt it. He was not, however, prepared to go the length of establishing such a coinage at once; and with respect to the inquiry alluded to by the hon. Member for Montrose, he would state that it was not necessary, as the commissioners appointed to inquire into the standards went fully into that question, and pointed out how the change could be made with little difficulty, unless as regarded
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small copper coins. The first step in the adoption of such a system was to establish the tenth part of a pound, which would be 2s.; and the first step might therefore be, to strike a two-shilling piece, to which he should have no objection. It might be advisable to strike a two-shilling piece; and if the people of the country became used to the two-shilling piece, it would be a most important step towards the introduction of a decimal system. If the coinage of a two-shilling piece could do no good in that way, it would do no harm, as the present system could go on if that failed. If the prejudice were found to be so strong after the introduction of the two-shilling piece, there would be no harm done by that attempt. After that statement, he did not see that it was necessary for the hon. Member to press his Motion; and if he did, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should feel it his duty to move the previous question.
MR. A. STAFFORD O'BRIENcongratulated the hon. Member for Bolton on the partial success of his Motion, and thanked him for the information contained in it. It was satisfactory to hear from the hon. Members opposite that there was such a prejudice in the country in favour of old customs and old institutions. He regretted that the Master of the Mint had not spoken, as Ireland, which was in everything an exception to other countries, had departed from the decimal system, and the Irish tenpenny was long since departed; so that, perhaps, the Master of the Mint might be able to throw some historical light on the subject.
MR. SHEILsaid, that it would have been much more officious than official in him to have expressed any opinion on this subject before the Chancellor of the Exchequer had spoken. He (Mr. Sheil) had not omitted to give it the best consideration in his power; he felt the importance of substituting, if it was possible, simple for compound arithmetic. He wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer from Ireland in October last, and received from him an answer, from which he should read an extract:—
"I have no objection to the system of a decimal currency. But you must not, as your proposal does, take the penny as the basis, and make your coins multiples of a penny. The unit of British currency, the basis upon which everything else depends, and by reference to which the value of every other coin is determined, is the pound sterling. We should get into inextricable confusion if we departed from this. A pound sterling

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is 123 grains and a fraction of gold of given pure-ness; a shilling has no value from the silver it contains, but as the l–20th part of a pound sterling—the actual coin is not intrinsically worth so much. So a penny does not derive its value from the Copper it contains, but as the l–120th part of a pound. If, therefore, we are to adopt a decimal system, the first step is easy enough—a two-shilling piece would be the tenth part of a pound. The difficulty begins with a penny, or the next coin, whatever you may call it, below the two-shilling piece. I will not pursue the subject further, having pointed out what must be the beginning, if such a system is to be entertained at all. I am confident that when you consider this subject in its more general bearings, you will sec that it is not a matter lightly to be dealt with; and any scheme which is to overturn the confirmed habit of a country for centuries, and the confirmed mode of keeping accounts of all kinds, requires the most serious consideration before it is attempted, and the greatest care in adjusting all its details."
He also communicated with Mr. Trevelyan, who enclosed to him some exceedingly able observations made by Mr. James Penning-ton. Mr. Pennington, it was right to state, was not favourable to the introduction of a decimal system. After stating M. De Morgan's plan, published in the British Almanac of 1841, and originally suggested by the celebrated Mr. Babbage—the plan, indeed, which his hon. Friend had to-night propounded—Mr. Pennington proceeds to state—
"In this way a decimal currency and a decimal coinage might no doubt be established; but mark the consequence—a labourer, whose wages were tenpence a day, and who at the end of a week might be in the possession of sixty pennies, or 240 cents, (alias farthings), would find that he could obtain for his 60 d., or 240 farthings, not 5s. in silver, but only 4s. l0 d. Again, a shopkeeper, who had been in the habit of selling an article for 3d., and who expected that when he had sold four of these articles he would have received money of the value of 1s., would find that he had received five per cent less than the sum he had calculated upon. In short, bickerings and misunderstandings in all dealings of less value than a shilling would continually occur."
Such were Mr. Pennington's objections; and he (Mr. Sheil) had submitted them to the consideration of two gentlemen of the highest mathematical ability. They did not concur with Mr. Pennington. It was clear that new contracts would be made in the new currency for labour and everything else, and that these objections could not then arise. They could apply to antecedent contracts, where it was necessary to connect the old currency with the new, and there could be little difficulty in doing that. The sovereign would be retained— the new coin, worth two shillings, call it a royal or a florin, would be the tenth of a
22
pound. On the reverse the value might be engraved. That new coin would be subdivided into ten other coins, each of which would be subdivided into ten farthings or cents. Then the royal, or florin, would be worth one hundred cents; half a florin, or a shilling, would be worth fifty farthings, or cents; sixpence would be worth twenty-five farthings, or cents; threepence would be worth twelve cents and a half. On all these coins, with the old name, might be engraved the value in the new coinage; and in the common transactions of life, with the aid of the new tables, no difficulty would arise. There would be no error in the conversion of threepences, sixpences, ninepences, and shillings: the only one would be in the intervening sums, and it would amount to only the fraction of a farthing. He, however, thought that nothing should be precipitately done. The new coin worth two shillings should be first put into circulation, and when once the public were familiar with its use, another step might be taken, and ere long the decimal system might be safely introduced.
MR. W. BROWNsaid, that in America, when the alteration from the old system to the decimal system was at first introduced, there was a little difficulty experienced in carrying it out; but as soon as that difficulty was overcome, the advantages of the decimal system in facilitating calculations and preventing mistakes, were found to be very great.
SIR G. CLERKconsidered that there could be little doubt of the advantage of a decimal system of currency with regard to the keeping of money accounts; and wherever such a system had been adopted, its simplicity had recommended it to favour. But, unless the Government were prepared to adopt a compulsory measure, such as had been enforced in the United States, and to call in the existing coinage, he did not think that the people of this country would voluntarily adopt a decimal system. He understood that the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not prepared to require that the public and all other accounts should be kept according to the decimal system; and, if this were the case, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether he might not produce a great deal of confusion, and afford great facilities for fraud, by striking a 2s. piece, which would be so similar in size and weight to the half-crown piece, and as to the value of which ignorant persons might easily be deceived. He wished to remind the right hon. Gen-

23
tleman of the inconvenience which was occasioned a few years ago by the issue of threepenny pieces soon after the coinage of groats. There was so slight a difference between the size and appearance of the coins, that the threepenny piece was not unfrequently passed for a groat.
DR. BOWRINGexpressed his readiness to accept the offer made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and observed, that within the last few days he had received a communication from a nobleman (Lord Ashburton, as we understood) who had had great experience with regard to the two systems of coinage, and who stated that he considered the time had arrived when the decimal system should be taken up by the Government of this country.
Motion withdrawn.

STATE OF GREECE.
LORD J. MANNERSsaid, the noble Lord the Prime Minister, on the first week of the Session, told them that whatever differences there might be among the people of England on most questions, there was at all times great apathy existing with regard to our foreign policy; and he told them also of the difficulties which those who were entrusted with our foreign policy had to meet with in fulfilling the important duties committed to their charge. But he thought, if there ever was a time when apathy and indifference might be changed into anxiety and curiosity, they might expect that the condition of Greece would now call forth these feelings. The expectations which were raised when England, at the instance of the late Mr. Canning, took a leading part in the expected regeneration of Greece, together with the disastrous European consequences which would ensue if the present reign of imbecility and cruelty, and extravagance, of all sorts, were permitted to continue, must be his excuse for venturing to ask the attention of the House to a subject which he was aware was rather alien from their tastes and dispositions. What Greece was expected to become when England joined in effecting her emancipation from the yoke of the Turks, must be well known to them all. The fertility of her soil, the genius of her people, and the heroism displayed in her ancient people, all conspired to encourage the hope that Greece at no distant day would assume a high place among the nations of Europe. What her condition now was, he would very shortly proceed to tell. In 1832, when the King of Bavaria
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accepted the throne of Greece in favour of his younger son, it was stipulated that a constitution should be given to the Greeks, and the Three great Powers, France, England, and Russia, advanced a loan of 800,000 l. each, the interest of which was to be repaid out of the first instalments that came into the national exchequer. Since that time eleven years passed away without either of these stipulations being fulfilled. The Greeks obtained no constitution—the Bavarian oligarchy ruled in the land—a system of cruelty and extortion was practised generally among the people, while the interest of the loan had not been in any instance whatever paid. However, in 1843, Count Nesselrode, writing to the Russian Ambassador at Athens, employed the following terms:—
"The Greek Government declared that the interest of the loan should take precedence of all other charges, and therefore he instructed the ambassador to require that the advance then due should be repaid by the 1st of July next. As to the future condition of the country, that must be matter for grave and serious consideration with the Three Powers, in order to avert the total ruin and destruction of the nation."
On the part of England our Government was equally active; and an energetic note was despatched by the Foreign Minister upon the subject; but he was sorry to say that they failed in all their endeavours to induce them to fulfil their stipulations, and England was forced to pay 40,000 l. a year as interest on the Greek loan. But at that period the Greek people, worn out and tired with the long series of oppressions which had been perpetrated upon them—worn out with the delays which they had experienced in the fulfilment of the stipulations made to them—rose as one man, and by a bloodless revolution, conducted with less disturbance and anger than had ever been witnessed in any other revolution in modern times, they succeeded in obtaining what they had so long stipulated for, and a constitution was conceded. They all knew with what delight and hope the settlement of that once formidable question was received in Europe. They all knew the terms in which Lord Aberdeen spoke of the efforts made by the Greek people, and the moderation of their character; and he naturally entertained the hope and belief that the future affairs of Greece and of its Government would be carried on according to those principles on which the Minister of the King promised that he would act in future. But he grieved to say, that ever since the time of

25
the relinquishment of office by Mavrocordato, in 1844, the condition of Greece, so far from improving, was as bad as it had been at any previous period; and the accounts which were now received from day to day revealed a system of violence, of extortion, and of various outrages committed against life and property, while the expectations of improvement held out in 1843 had not hitherto been fulfilled. He believed he should be able to show, by reference to authentic papers, that these outrages were committed, not only by the tacit sanction of the authorities, but under the orders of the constituted authorities themselves—by the fearful and lamentable violence of the soldiers—with the violation of the constitution—and by the open and avowed influence of other Powers, or at least of one other Power, in the political management of the country. The condition of Greece in 1847 was such as to create astonishment and regret in the mind of every gentleman who was interested in the fate of that country, and was such as to decide an English House of Commons to express an opinion—he hoped a unanimous opinion—of reprobation and horror. He should now proceed to show that the constituted authorities connived at and were themselves the perpetrators of these extraordinary cruelties and outrages against life and property. He found that M. Crizeis, the Governor of Etolia, addressing M. Coletti, used these remarkable expressions:—
"After having presented this statement to the Ministers, it is now my duty to observe, that it is absolutely essential the Government should take prompt and efficacious means to remedy this state of things, or otherwise I request the Government to accept my resignation; because it is repugnant to me to remain in the government of a province where the officers in command, whether designedly or otherwise, excite the people to rebellion, compel them to take up arms against the Government, or do anything to relieve themselves from that oppression, personal, material, and moral, with which the officers endeavour to crush them."
He held in his hand a petition presented to the Greek Chamber from Patras, authenticated by all the leading inhabitants of the place. That petition stated that—
"The members of the family Dimeoi, arrested by the Mirarque (the Government officer), were subjected to the torture for three days, and all their effects sold. Dimetri Nicalo Copulo, accused of an insignificant robbery three years ago, was put to the torture and expired soon after."
A petition presented to the King from Messina contained the following passage:—
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"Fifty citizens dragged without excuse from the bosom of their families, and thrown into a damp and loathsome dungeon, deploring their loss of liberty, that last worldly blessing, cast them-themselves on your mercy. Sire, the tortures we have undergone are unheard of and horrible; some of us suspended by the feet; others, with their legs and arms bound, are laid upon the ground, and blocks of stone placed on their chests, their flesh torn, and limbs mutilated."
It also appeared that—
"At Lamia, on the 26th of November last, two gendarmes and three soldiers entered the village of Daitza, where they took and imprisoned the authorities, and then having entered the cottages belonging to two men, Agrosloti Galatopoulo and Christo Talana, seized the women, whom they treated with a brutality too horrible to describe, and then pillaged the house."
He found likewise, that, on the 3rd of September, 1846, the commandant of the 5th battalion wrote to the Minister of War on brigandage in Acarnania. He said—
"I likewise determined to report to the Government, on the most proofs in my power, all those who were in any way favourable to the system; but I am compelled to declare, upon my honour, that brigandage is chiefly excited and countenanced by the employés of the Government at Vanitza, who are urged on by a well-known head, and guided by views and interests of a private nature. The Minister knows full well that during the brief existence of my mission I was deprived of a military force sufficient for the exigences of the service, as well as of the presence of a civil officer."
In the more recent accounts from Athens, he found the following most extraordinary statement, under the date of the 10th of February, 1847:—
"If brigandage has for a long time desolated Acarnania, Eusytania does not suffer less from acts committed, not by brigands, but by the chief of the moveable column, the Captain Mercuditi. We have before our eyes letters which give a detailed and revolting description of the tortures and exactions committed by this officer, in the villages of Spinassa, of Klitzo, of Fourna, &c. The population of this province, which at all times has been distinguished by the gentleness of its manners, its application to labour, and exemplary submission, is reduced to despair. Since the time when placed under the administration of the famous Galini, she indignantly sees herself exposed to a system of persecution of which she has lost the memory since the end of Ali Pacha's Government."
The fact was, he believed, that the outrages committed on the Greeks formerly by the Turks were greatly exceeded by the outrages now committed on them by their own Government. To come to a later period, the 10th of April, he found under that date an account of some important proceedings that had taken place in the important province of Laconia:—
"Grave events have occurred in Laconia. One

27
of the most important towns of the Peloponessus, the port of exports for the productions of the rich province of Lacedæmon, Gythion, has been sacked and partly destroyed in a collision which took place on the occasion of the municipal elections between the Mavromichalis and the Tzaratahis, two families who both rank among the friends of the present system."
The House might perhaps be inclined to say, that an election squabble was not so uncommon an event in England as to induce them to take much notice of it; but he would venture to say, that it was very seldom indeed that election squabbles in England proceeded so far as to the burning of a town. But he would call the attention of the House to the fact by whose authority this was done. There could be no doubt that the constituted authorities had interfered; and the House would then see how they interfered:—
"There were two Government vessels lying off Gythion; the officers and crew espoused the cause of General Tzanetakis, so did the governor of the province. But this combination of the authorities excited the anger of the friends of M. Mavromichali, who, not feeling themselves strong enough to sustain the fight with success, called to their assistance M. Mavromichali, the deputy's nephew. He arrived at Gythion, at the head of a troop, occupied some houses and fortified them. General Oganetaki, who lives in the town, did the same, and occupied several points. The governor orders Mavromichali's people to quit the town, and proscribes them. Meanwhile the mirasque of gendarmerie arrives with two companies of light troops, and two detachments of gendamerie, and all the authorities meet in Council on the 29th of March. The governor and naval officers declare in favour of the general; the mirasque, and the military officers, stick to their candidate. (The poor voters never seem to be thought of at all.) Next day the polling commences—I beg pardon— the signal of hostilities is given, and the vessels of war, at four o'clock in the afternoon, open a cannonade upon the house occupied by Mavromichali's people, and some of the houses are destroyed. The firing ceases at sunset; but is replaced by a very active fusillade, which lasts till morning, between the houses occupied by the two parties. On the morning of the 31st the ships recommence firing, and make a terrible destruction."
The result was, that the town was almost altogether destroyed—the citizens fled for refuge to the ships, or where they could; and the last accounts he had received ended by saying, "that this flourishing commercial town presented the appearance of a ruined city." He would now come to the second point, to the outrages which had been committed upon the constitution that was granted in 1843. Here he must guard himself against its being supposed that he imagined no country could be well and happily governed unless they had a constitution. But that was not the point
28
at issue here. The people had been promised a constitution, and they had received a constitution; he would proceed to show how that constitution had been dealt with. He found that the municipal revenues of Athens, which had been respected by the Turks themselves, and which amounted to 8,000 drachmas a year, had been seized and squandered year by year by the Government; and not a penny of it was expended in the improvement or the advancing of the town, for which it was originally intended. A similar course had been pursued with respect to the revenues of other towns. At the last election, Mavrocordato, who was admitted to be the first Greek statesman of the day, even by his bitterest opponents, was elected for four distinct places, and yet he was turned out by a vote of the Chamber from all his seats; and thus prevented from giving the weight of his influence, his knowledge, and his high character to the deliberative assembly of his countrymen. And now he would come to more recent instances. He found that a Pretorian band—for he could call it by no other name—commanded by John Costa, was kept up illegally for two years, till on the 18th of February, 1847, it was condemned by an adverse vote of the Chambers. For two years it had been kept up contrary to the constitution, contrary to everything by which a constitutional and representative Government was maintained; but at the end of two years, on February 18, 1847, a majority of the Chamber—49 to 40—withheld the grant of money for its aid, and decreed an abrogation of this band. In the speech of M. Coletti, which he delivered on the 9th of February, 1846, in defending himself against the charges which had repeatedly been brought against his Government, he, with a frankness which one might be permitted to admire, expressed himself in the following terms:—
"Formerly, these abuses were committed even in the capital, in the Government offices; and it was by the means of these illicit profits that they were enabled to raise splendid mansions, that they gave balls, where tea, coffee, and sweetmeats were offered in profusion; and now great complaints are made because 600 or 1,000 indigent persons are sent into the provinces to collect the revenue and gain the means of subsistence. And what are these men? They scarcely commit any abuses; and when they do so, it is only to the amount of a few drachmas."
He now came to that part of his case which was, perhaps, more directly interesting to the Members of the English House of Commons—he meant the financial part

29
of his argument. He might here say that England, having paid 40,000 l. a year from its own finances, on account of the mismanagement of Greece, had a clear right to make its voice heard. He did not wish to go far hack upon this subject, or to expose that system of mismanagement which the despatches of Lord Aberdeen so fully explained; he would only go hack as far as 1846. He found, in a debate in the Chamber of Deputies in February, 1846, that the Minister of Finance said—
"That he came to tell them that the Treasury Department was completely disorganized—that there were no accounts of the revenue or expenditure—and that he could not furnish to the Chamber anything in the shape of a budget, on account of the dishonesty of the public functionaries —that millions were due to the State, and he did not know by whom."
On the 18th of February, 1846, the same Minister observed—
"Imagine, Sir, that the Minister of Finance cannot obtain any knowledge of the state of the country—that he is entirely ignorant of its resources; you may, therefore, judge what must be the state of the revenue; in these few words I have proved to you in what ignorance I have been kept during the short period of my administration."
He was very much afraid, from what had recently transpired in Greece, that the Minister of Finance had not improved in his knowledge of these subjects since he made that admission. In the budget which was brought forward immediately after this discussion of 1846, the foreign debt due to England, France, and Russia, was totally omitted; there was no mention whatever made of a debt that had gone on increasing from year to year; and the budget was presented as if that debt had no existence whatever. The total income of the country was then estimated at 14,475,299 drachmas, the expenditure at 14,786,546 drachmas, making a clear and avowed deficit of 300,247 drachmas. Then Lord Aberdeen, when he saw such a budget brought forward in the Chamber of Deputies, sent a despatch to Sir Edward Lyons, commenting upon it in a strong and marked manner. He said it falsified all notion of a severe economy being exercised, as was asserted by M. Coletti, and that it justified him in adhering to his resolution of applying for the half-year's interest of the Greek loan which was then due. He observed, that if this disordered state of their finances should continue, England would be compelled to take such measures as would appear to be necessary to put an end to such a state of things, and to provide that
30
the loan should no longer be squandered. Well, now, one would naturally have concluded, after such an expression of opinion on the part of a nobleman whose language the House well knew was always guarded and cautious on these matters—one would have imagined that after this strong expression of opinion, those who were entrusted with the finances of Greece would have devoted their best attention to their amelioration. But he regretted to say that quite the reverse had taken place. There was probably no country in Europe which had not noticed the extraordinary financial exhibition which was recently made at Athens. On the 3rd of February, 1847, the same Minister of Finance, talking of the rich and fertile province of Elis, followed it up with this statement:—
"I cannot, gentlemen, conceal from you any longer the truth; the robbery of the public revenues has surpassed all measure, and is carried on with an insane impudence. But is this the fault of the Minister? I did not know any of the candidates; they were all nominated in the lists presented by the deputies. I hardly know fifty employés out of the thousands who belong to my department; if each steals a small portion of the revenue, the diminution must naturally become considerable. Things have arrived it such a pitch that it is impossible for the Minister of Finance to put a check to the abuses." "'Then,'" said the Judge-Advocate of the Royal Court of Athens, 'in this case, Monsieur the Minister, you ought to resign;' and the sitting was closed in an uproar."
What the Minister said might be a novel mode of paying official salaries; but he feared it was not very economical. Probably it was in the knowledge of every Gentleman in that House that recently a Committee had been appointed by the Chamber of Deputies to investigate six charges made against the Minister of Finance. Those six charges resolved themselves, however, into two: the first, the falsification of the revenue, which the Minister had admitted in the Chamber, and given his explanation of; and the second, the falsification of the averages by which the importation of corn into Greece was regulated. With regard to the latter, the duties on the importation of corn into Greece were regulated by the average prices at nine different markets, and it was the duty of the Minister to make public these averages; but from the month of August to the month of January last, the Minister of Finance had suspended the publication of the averages, and thereby occasioned the most serious and mischievous speculations in the corn trade.

31
The Committee of which he had spoken was constituted on the 20th of February, and presented its report on the 10th of March. It was a long and elaborate report, the reading of which he should be sorry to inflict upon the House; but in that report the Committee found the Minister guilty of the charges brought against him, and they were all but unanimous in coming to that conclusion. There was only one member of the Committee who had doubted as to the propriety of the course which the great majority adopted. Their report contained the following passage, which gave, he thought, very fairly, the all but unanimous opinion of the Committee:—
"The commission, convinced by the reasons above expressed that the Minister Ponyropoulos has knowingly committed these illegal acts, thinks it needless to inquire whether, besides the illegal tax which strikes the foreign grains, the Treasury has sustained a loss by the diminution of the duties on exportation."
The effect, therefore, of the Minister's conduct had been to diminish the amount of duty which ought to have been paid: and the Committee asked the Chamber of Deputies to proceed to an impeachment. He was bound, however, to say, that in the Chamber of Deputies a small majority of eleven rejected the first part of the report; but in what position did the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Greece stand? He stood convicted by a Committee who had investigated the charges; and he stood absolved in the Chamber by a small majority. As to the other charge, the Minister, as he had already said, had admitted in his place in the Chamber that he had presented a false report of the revenue; but he had at the same time expressed a hope that his patriotic reason for so doing would induce the Chamber to sanction his conduct; and the reason which he gave was, that a surplus revenue would have been shown over the estimated expenditure, and that foreign Powers would then be justified in expecting that some of the interest on their loan would be paid. Now, if he had not known that fact upon the most unquestionable authority, he would hardly have believed it; it was so difficult to believe that any one filling an office of such high trust and importance could have ventured to state in the Chamber of Deputies that he had falsified the public accounts in order to cheat the country which at a considerable sacrifice had enabled Greece to keep its head up amongst the nations of Europe. So to do did seem
32
to require such an extravagant degree of assurance, that he could not help thinking there was some mistake; still the authority admitted of no doubt. Now, after what had occurred in the early part of the Session, and considering the delicate nature of our relations with our neighbours across the Channel, he should have been glad if he could have concluded his statement without noticing the part which that country had taken in this matter. He alluded to the unhappy influence which France had exercised in the councils of Greece. It was useless to blink the fact. If he thought that he could at all advance the satisfactory settlement of the question by omitting to take any notice of French influence in Greece, he should be glad to do so; but he could see no such prospect, and he thought that the best way of meeting the difficulties which that influence threw in the way of a better state of things, was to watch and counteract it. He must say that the conduct pursued by France, and avowed by the French people, stood in very unfavourable contrast to the conduct pursued by England, and avowed and sanctioned by the English people. Nor could he refrain from expressing here his high estimation of the great services of Sir E. Lyons, our Minister in Greece. It was no more than his due that he should be told in the House of Commons that so long as he persisted in the course which he had hitherto pursued, he would receive the support not only of the Foreign Minister for the time being, but also the support of the popular assembly of this country. Lord Aberdeen, writing to Sir E. Lyons, in 1843, said—
"In the whole of your proceedings at this important crisis, you will constantly bear in mind that the good of Greece alone is the principle which guides and animates Her Majesty's Government. We desire to establish no British influence, and we equally deprecate the establishment of any other exclusive national influence in Greece. We wish to see Greece independent, and under the auspices of a sound and well-regulated constitutional system of government, in which each power in the State shall have its due weight and influence, growing daily in strength, in credit, and in prosperity. The exercise of any extraneous and exclusive influence over her counsels, can but tend to retard that growth."
That was the language of Lord Aberdeen in 1843; his only wish was to keep free from foreign control the waters of the Pirâus; and yet, in 1846, Coletti, the Prime Minister of Greece, was heard boasting in the Chamber that it was France who gave them so many presents;

33
it was she who kept her schools open to their children—she who placed her fleets at their disposal. But perhaps it might be thought, after the course he had pursued, no great dependence could he placed on the statements of Coletti; but he was now about to call the attention of the House to a much more important personage in this most complicated and unhappy drama. M. Guizot had addressed the French Chambers on the subject.
An HON. MEMBER An HON. MEMBER moved that the House be counted, and forty Members not being present, the House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS. 1a Lunatic Asylums.
2a Commons Inclosure (No. 2); Prisons (Ireland); Incumbered Estates (Ireland.)
3a and passed:—Customs Duties; Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment.
Received the Royal Assent.—Fever (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Morley and a great number of other places, against the proposed Government Plan of Education.—From Awre, against any further Concession or Support being granted to the Roman Catholics.—From Arbroath and several other places, in favour of the proposed Government Plan of Education.—By the Marquess of Lansdowne, from Guardians of the Mountmelick Union, against any Clause being inserted in the Bill which would throw the Responsibility of Supporting the Poor on the Occupying Tenant.—By Lord Monteagle, from the Parish of Christchurch, Surrey, for the Better Observance of the Sabbath.—From Maryborough and Moira, against the Poor Relief (Ireland) Bill.—From North Greenhoe and the Eastern Division of Norfolk, for the Repeal of the Malt Tax.

COLLIERY EXPLOSIONS.
EARL FITZWILLIAMpresented a petition from the coroner's jury which inquired into the death of the seventy-three persons who recently perished from the explosion of the foul air in a coal mine near Barnsley, in the West Riding of
2
Yorkshire. The petitioners prayed that means might be taken to ensure the adoption of proper means of ventilation, and also that an efficient system of inspection might be introduced as likely to be of utility in the prevention of accidents. So far as he was personally concerned, he had no objection to a system of inspection, a system already in operation as to some other purposes, and he had no doubt it might be advantageously extended to this purpose also.
The BISHOP of DURHAMurged the great importance of some means being adopted to prevent colliery accidents. The subject was well worthy the attention of Her Majesty's Government, for the loss of life was far greater than any one not connected with the working of collieries could imagine.
LORD WHARNCLIFFEhoped the Government would turn their attention to this most important subject. At the same time he feared the petitioners expected more advantages to arise from a system of inspection than it would be found capable of affording. In factories it might be good, but

3
in coal mines the benefit would be extremely doubtful. Besides, the parties themselves generally maintained inspection, and these accidents occurred for the most part through neglect on the part of the sufferers of the rules laid down.
LORD CAMPBELLassured the noble Earl that Her Majesty's Government felt the great importance of the subject mentioned in the petition. The loss of life in coal mines was most lamentable, and it was sufficient to bring discredit on the national character that means were not taken to abate it. He feared, however, that inspection could do but little in that respect. The best inspection and supervision was from the owners and the managers of mines; and he would remind the House that by his Bill of last year, if life was lost by negligence, the surviving friends of the party would have had a remedy. There could be no doubt that if that Bill had passed, the sums awarded in damages would have made the parties more careful.

INCUMBERED ESTATES (IRELAND) BILL.
The LORD CHANCELLOR The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the Second Reading of this Bill. The noble and learned Lord, who was imperfectly heard, said he anticipated that this measure, if carried out, would have the effect of relieving to a considerable degree many landlords in Ireland. He had heard from all quarters that it frequently happened that landed property in Ireland was incumbered to its full value and to the entire amount of the rent. The person who had such a property was nominally in possession of a considerable estate; but he derived no benefit from it, and he was unable to perform the duties that were expected from him as a landlord. The mortgagee or incumbrancer had no interest in the land either, as it was quite immaterial to him how it was managed provided he got the interest of his mortgage. He had no motive for interesting himself in the welfare of the property, while the real proprietor was left in charge of the management of the estate without deriving any income from it. This was undoubtedly a great evil to the individuals, but it was also a great national evil. The difficulty was, however, not only great, but the way out of it was extremely hard. Unless the party who had the first incumbrance on the estate, and in whose possession the title-deeds remained, consented to give them up for the purpose, it was im-
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possible for the owner to get any third party to clear off the incumbrances, or to purchase the estate. The person who was to advance the money could have no security for it, as he could not get the title-deeds until the money was paid to the first incumbrancer. The latter party could, in such a case, continue the incumbrance, and throw the greatest obstacles in the way of clearing the estate of it. His position was in fact actually that described by Lord Eldon, who on being asked for advice by a first mortgagee, told him to put the title-deeds in a box and to sit on it, and that he might then set the world at defiance. These were the difficulties which existed even in this country. In England the incumbrancer who was desirous of obtaining payment of a mortgage could only do so by filing a bill to foreclose the mortgage, but he had no power to compel the mortgagor to direct a sale of the estate or to pay the money. In Ireland the incumbrancer was enabled, on going before a court of equity, to obtain a decree for the sale of the estate; but the mortgagor could not do so. Their Lordships might be aware that the expenses of proceedings in the Court of Chancery in Ireland were very heavy; and the expenses incident to proceedings with regard to estates bore no sort of relative proportion to their value. Where the estate was large and of considerable value, the expenses were relatively small; but where the estate was small, those expenses bore ruinously heavy upon it. He was very anxious to provide some plan by which the expenses in Chancery with regard to proceedings in cases of incumbered estates should be lessened; and it was therefore proposed by the Bill before their Lordships to do away with all the preliminary machinery of filing bills and answers, and all the other forms that had to be gone through at present, and to permit the litigating parties to apply at once to the Lord Chancellor, stating the fact that the estate was incumbered, and praying that it be referred to the Master in Chancery, that he might inquire into the whole circumstances, and arrange to bring the property to a sale. It was proposed that any incumbrancer might apply; but as there was danger lest, in cases where the owner of a settled estate was no more than the nominal owner—the estate being incumbered beyond its value, and he being therefore only ostensibly the owner, without having any real interest in the property, he might join with some one

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of the incumbrancers who might have a mortgage for a small amount—it should be referred to the master to examine and see whether the estate was worth more than the incumbrances. He would propose that when it was proved to a Master in Chancery that the estate was worth more than the incumbrance, then the estate should be sold, and the money paid into court, and, in the mean time, all litigation should take place with reference to the money, and not to the estate. The object of the Bill was to promote the speedy sale of estates, and to provide that, pending all proceedings, the lands could be let and the tenants attended to properly.
The MARQUESS of WESTMEATHthanked the noble and learned Lord for having introduced such a measure; but he could not help thinking that when the noble Lord should come to consider it further in Committee, he would find some means by which the expenses might be still further considerably diminished. He thought, also, that when a case should come before a Master in Chancery, the mode of receiving viva voce evidence in open court might be adopted, instead of the present doubtful as well as expensive and tedious system of receiving testimony by interrogatory. He thought that the Bill would be of considerable benefit to Ireland.
The EARL of WICKLOWthought that nothing could be more likely to prove eventually beneficial to Ireland than the measure proposed; and he could not help saying, that he was surprised at finding no such recommendation in the report of the Commission at the head of which had been the Earl of Devon; for it appeared to him, from much of the reasoning and of the evidence in that report, that some such measure was pointed out as being absolutely necessary. He begged, however, to call attention to the 7th Clause of the Bill, the operation of which would be, as it appeared to him, directly against the principle of the measure, and calculated to prevent the useful working of it. That clause provided that where only one incumbrancer upon any estate should object or refuse his consent, the court should not, without the consent of that incumbrancer, permit the sale of the land. Now, for the very reasons given by the noble and learned Lord himself, persons holding mortgages upon an estate might not be willing to assist the sale. The great object of the measure ought to be, to free property now incumbered so far as to prevent the owners
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from performing the duties of landlords; and he feared the effect of the clause would be to obstruct the setting of it free.
LORD ASHBURTONmade some observations on the measure which were inaudible in the gallery.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, that it was a matter of everyday occurrence in Ireland to find cases in Chancery handed down year after year, and from generation to generation, until the whole value of the estate which formed the subject of litigation was swallowed up. He himself (Lord Monteagle) lived in a part of the country surrounded by estates in the condition of being, to use a phrase perfectly well understood in Ireland, "under the courts;" and they were mere dens of pauperism, there not being one single individual connected with them who could be pointed out as standing in the position of owner, or whose business it was to look after the tenants. The immediate effect, he thought, of the Bill would be, that the quantity of land which would be brought into the market would diminish the value of land for a time. The provision for effecting sale brought him to the consideration of a most important matter. He trusted, most sincerely, that, under the working of the Bill, estates would be sold in smaller parcels than had generally been the case in Ireland hitherto. He feared that some of the evils dreaded by the noble Lord who had just spoken (Lord Ashburton) might occur, unless great care were taken. He meant by the purchasing of estates with borrowed money. That had been one of the causes of selling land in Ireland in large masses; and it was, in fact, only exchanging one incumbered estate for another. But if anything could raise the condition of Ireland more than another, it would be the raising a class of smaller proprietors. There was no one who knew anything about the condition of Ireland who did not grieve to think of its condition from the absence of a middle class of proprietors; one that should stand between the larger class and the lower, or cottiers. Such a middle class formed the strength of a country. He did not know whether the Bill before them would effect any change or improvement in the system of registration; but a greater good could not be done to the landed proprietors than by the improvement of the system of registry. Through the difficulties that had been cast around it, the last state of the landed proprietors of Ireland had been made, under

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the Registration Act, worse than the first. But he thought, in any case, that the Bill before them would be of the very greatest benefit to the country.
The LORD CHANCELLORexplained the effect and object of the 7th Clause.
Bill read a second time.
House adjourned.