Sitting of 19 May 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2°. Superintendent of Convicts.
Reported. Viscount Hardinge's Annuity (No.2); Viscount Hardinge's Annuity; Lord Gough's Annuity; Explosive Substances.
3°. and passed. Customs Duties.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By several hon. Members, from an immense number of places, complaining of Refusal to grant Sites for the Erection of Churches for the Free Church of Scotland.—By Mr. Fox Maule, from Members of the Synod of Angus and Mearns, of the Free Church of Scotland, and by the Earl of Arundel and Surrey, from Inhabitants of the Town of Lowestoftt, for the Adoption of Measures for promoting the Due Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Sir James Duke, from Secular Clergymen and Laymen of the Town of Boston and its Vicinity, professing the Roman Catholic Religion, and by Mr. Dugdale, from Roman Catholic Inhabitants of the Parishes of Nuneaton and Chilvers Coton, in favour of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Mr. Pole Carew, from the Clergy of the Deanery of Trigg Major, in
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Cornwall, and by Sir Robert Harry Inglis, from Archdeacon and Clergy of the Deanery of Powder, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.—By Mr. Baine, from Merchants, Shipowners, Manufacturers, and other Inhabitants of the Town of Greenock, and by Mr. Bannerman, from Members of the Aberdeen Steam Navigation Company, praying that all Expenses for the Erection and Maintenance of Lighthouses, Floating Buoys, and Beacons on the Coasts of the United Kingdom, should be henceforth defrayed out of the Public Revenue.—By Mr. Baine, from the Chamber of Commerce of Greenock, incorporated by Royal Charter, for Alteration of Sugar Duties.—From Joseph Hodgson, F.R.S., the President of the Birmingham Philosophical Institution, in favour of the Corresponding Societies and Lecture Rooms Bill.—By Mr. Muntz, from Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Borough of Birmingham, respecting the Employment and Reformation of Discharged Prisoners.—By Mr. William Williams, from Inhabitants of the Town of Presteigh, and from Mayor, Aldermen, Common Councillors, Clergy, and other Inhabitants of the Borough of Cardigan, for Extension of Education in Wales.—By Mr. Cowper, from Inhabitants of Somers Town, Stratford, Lambeth, and Islington, and by Mr. Fox Maule, from Members of the Free Presbytery of Arbroath, for Limiting the Hours of Labour in Factories to Ten in the Day for Five Days in the Week, and Eight on the Saturday.—By Mr. Liddell, from Ratepayers of Sherburn and Crawcrook, for Repeal or Alteration of the Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.—By Mr. Burroughes, from Officers of the Blofield Union, for a Superannuation Fund for Poor Law Officers.—By Mr. George William Hope, from Members of the Religious Society of Friends, and others of their Persuasion, residing in and near Southampton, for the Abolition of Capital Punishments.—By Sir George Grey, from Passengers travelling between Birmingham and Bristol by Railway, on the 18th of May, complaining of Break of Gauge on Railways.

SITES FOR PLACES OF WORSHIP IN SCOTLAND.
MR. FOX MAULErose to ask (pursuant to the Notice he had given) for leave to bring in a Bill to enable Christian congregations in Scotland to obtain sites for places of worship, manses, and school-houses. He had given notice of his intention to introduce that measure for the relief of the grievances existing in Scotland, which were very considerable; but before opening his case he begged leave to present 115 petitions from various places in Scotland, in favour of it, and complaining of the grievances to which the petitioners were at present subjected. Having presented those petitions, he should observe that it had been his intention to have taken advantage of the position which he held, to lay a statement before the House of the motives by which he was actuated, and the reasons why he brought forward a measure of such importance, and one somewhat novel in its character. But inasmuch as he saw neither the Lord Advocate of Scotland nor the Secretary of State for the Home Department present, although they had had such full notion of his intention to introduce such a Bill, he took it for granted that they

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had no objection, and he thought it would, under such circumstances, he better to confine himself to merely asking for leave to bring in the Bill, and reserving his statement until the second reading.
SIR R. H. INGLISshould like to have some explanation from the right hon. Gentleman. He wished to know what was meant by "Christian congregations." He knew very well what in his own conscience would be the meaning of such a phrase, but he should wish to know what the right hon. Gentlemen meant by using it. The right hon. Gentleman was known to be the advocate conscientiously, of the Free Church of Scotland, and he wished to know why the phrase "Christian congregations" had been adopted instead of any more distinct appellation. As to the Bill itself, some explanation was really requisite. So far as he could understand it, it was to enable persons who described themselves as Christians, to take a certain portion of their neighbour's property for their own use without that neighbour's consent; in fact, to give to persons calling themselves "Christians" just such powers as were given to railway companies by their Acts, to take certain lands at a fixed price. He thought the House would pause before allowing such a measure to be introduced, without some satisfactory explanation regarding it.
MR. F. MAULEhad before said, he was ready and prepared to give a full explanation; but inasmuch as the absence of Her Majesty's Ministers had apparently given a tacit consent to the introduction of the measure, he was willing to reserve that explanation for a future stage. Her Majesty's Ministers having since entered the House, he was ready to suggest that he should be permitted to bring in the Bill without in the least degree committing any one to its principles, and that the discussion should be taken on the second reading.
SIR JAMES GRAHAMbegged to offer an apology to the right hon. Gentleman for not having been in the House when his Notice had been called on by the Speaker. But he had been most particularly engaged on some important public business, which had delayed him. With regard to the Bill, his impression, upon reading the notice regarding it, was, he confessed, unfavourable to its object. He should frankly state to the right hon. Gentleman that, judging only by the wording of the Notice, he had very grave objections to the Bill.
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Much, however, would of course depend upon the detail, which would be unfolded at a future stage, and more justice would be done to the measure by not previously entering into a hostile discussion at the present stage. He did not feel authorized to object to the introduction of the Bill.
Leave given.

CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL—AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.
SIR ROBERT PEELmoved that the Bill be read a Third Time.
MR. STAFFORD O'BRIENrose to put the question of which he had given notice regarding the production of agricultural statistics. During the present Parliament, he believed in the year 1844, the question of agricultural statistics had been brought before the House by the hon. Member for Manchester, who was supported by the hon. Member for North Lincolnshire, than whom perhaps a more experienced agriculturist did not occupy a seat in that House. The hon. Member for Manchester consented to withdraw his Motion on the understanding that Her Majesty's Government would take some steps to obtain an alteration in the mode of obtaining those statistics. He believed it was understood that the Government of that day was unfavourable to the course which the hon. Member for Manchester proposed to pursue; but still there was an impression prevailing that they would take the matter into consideration, and the hon. Member withdrew his Motion. The cultivators of the soil had nothing to fear from the fullest disclosures; and if the House had been in possession of better information the agricultural interest would have been able to make out even a more complete case against the Corn Bill than they had made. He believed that Government must begin any undertaking of the kind slowly, and by degrees, lest they should create jealousy and suspicion on the part of the farmers; as those farmers became more enlightened, the inquiries might be pushed farther, and not limited, as in the first instance, to mere matters regarding the quantity of land in cultivation, or the number of cattle fed upon it. He apprehended that the machinery of the new Highway Bill, now before Parliament, might be advantageously employed for the purpose. It was ever to be borne in mind that the House was unanimous as to the value of the information, and as to the propriety of obtaining it.
SIR G. CLERK, as it was understood

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that no debate was to take place on the third reading of the Customs Duties Bill, would confine himself to the question of which notice was given, whether the Government had taken any and what steps for collecting agricultural statistics since the subject was last under the consideration deavoured to proceed cautiously in the first of the House. The Government had eninstance, as was wished, and with the view of avoiding any jealousies on the part of the farmers. It had been anxious to ascertain whether the statistical information could be collected by means of existing machinery, and voluntarily, from the occupiers of land, rather than by any new and expensive machinery. The experiment had been tried upon a small scale; the northern division of Hampshire had been taken, the county of Edinburgh, and a large union in the county of Cavan, extending over 6,000 acres. In the latter case, in Ireland, the information collected had been obtained by the voluntary assistance of very intelligent landowners; the number of subdivisions of land rendered it difficult to discover the manner in which it was cropped, but information had been furnished in a very creditable manner. In the Scotch county, the means employed had been the parochial schoolmasters; printed forms were sent to them to leave with every occupier of land, to obtain a statement of the manner in which the land had been cropped, how many acres were under each species of cultivation, and the number of cattle, sheep, horses, and so on, upon the farm: the information had been very satisfactorily obtained, and put in a tabular form. With regard to Hampshire, the efforts of the Government had not at present been attended with success; they had been made through the Poor Law officers, the boards of guardians, who gave each occupier a form of return to fill up. Whether it was from some degree of jealousy or from apathy on a subject of such importance as this, he could not tell, but they had not been able to get the returns completed. Under these circumstances, therefore, he was bound to say that it might become expedient, in order to get the desired information, to make those returns compulsory within a certain time; otherwise he was afraid the object contemplated would not be successfully carried out. In the mean time, however, he was not prepared to say whether any legislative measure would be brought in for that purpose, or whether they would try for another
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year to obtain the returns voluntarily. If they could be obtained voluntarily, certainly that mode of procuring the information would be most desirable; and he trusted that, after the expression of opinion which his hon. Friend had given, they would be able next year to obtain returns, not from one county only, but from every county in England.
LORD G. BENTINCK, as the subject under consideration referred to statistical details, wished to ask if some means could not be devised of procuring statistical details in regard to the manufactures of the country. It had been stated as a fact in that House that the home consumption of the cotton manufacture was one-eighth of the whole production of the country. Now, he thought that if accurate information could be obtained, the home consumption would be found to amount to two-thirds of the whole manufactures of the country.
MR. BRIGHTpresumed the noble Lord must be acquainted with the fact, that they could obtain from the Customs an account of the raw material imported into the country, and of the manufactured goods exported. If they imported annually 500,000,000 or 600,000,000 pounds weight of cotton, and exported annually a certain amount, all they had to do was to apply the simple rule of subtraction, to find out what was the quantity that remained in the country. There was, no doubt, one defect in these returns—they were not always given in the same way—the returns being in weight in one case, and not in weight in another; but it was well known that it was impossible for any Government to ascertain the exact amount of all the different kinds of goods, or no doubt they would have much pleasure in giving the information. When his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) said they ought to have agricultural information, he meant it for the benefit of the agriculturists themselves, and not from any mere wish to inquire what they were doing. He believed that, in reference to the manufacturing interest of the country, the noble Lord might obtain much information from inpectors.
MR. MILESwas anxious that Government should take up the matter with as little delay as possible, and recommended that at all events the Poor Law guardians should not be resorted to to procure information, which he apprehended could be better obtained by voluntary means.
Bill read a third time and passed.

QUARANTINE LAWS.
DR. BOWRINGmoved, that—
"An humble Address be presented to Her Majesty that She will be graciously pleased to direct that such Correspondence or Extracts on the subject of the Quarantine Laws as has taken place with foreign Governments since the last Returns to Parliament to be laid on, the Table of this House; and that this House will see with pleasure such relaxations in the existing system as may be compatible with a due regard to public health and the general interests of the nation."
The hon. Member commenced by quoting from a petition formerly presented from Dr. Maclean, in which that gentleman gave it as his opinion that the Quarantine Laws were highly objectionable—that they impeded science, produced immorality, obstructed travelling, and restricted commerce, navigation, and manufactures; besides being in many other respects hurtful. He could not mention the name of Dr. Maclean without a passing tribute to a man who had preceded his day in a thorough investigation of this question, and opened the way to more enlightened and philosophical legislation. He then proceeded to call the attention of the House to some circumstances which had occurred in connexion with the subject since it was last debated before the House. He had moved for the correspondence which had taken place on the subject of the Eclair; but he regretted that it had not been laid upon the Table. The facts, however, had been to some extent communicated to the public through the press; and he believed there had been a great sacrifice of human life—many new victories added to those of whom the Quarantine Laws had already caused the destruction. In The Times of the 30th of September last, he found some important statements with reference to that unfortunate vessel, contained in a letter from Portsmouth:—
"Arrived this morning (September 29), the Eclair, with the yellow flag and black ball in the centre, emblematic of death on board. The awful number of sixty-two have died in the vessel, and others are dying hourly. No communication is allowed. Twenty-three are ill. The surgeon was alive this morning, and answered that the mortality was from a fever, between the yellow and the black. The Custom House authorities are fearful of removing any one. We believe fresh provisions have been sent to the vessel; but cannot find out whether any human assistance has been rendered. If she remains, she will have to ride out forty days quarantine; but it is probable she will be supplied with fuel and fresh provisions, and sent for a cruize to the North Sea. The Admiralty despatches are landing, but nothing else. A boat rows guard round the vessel to prevent communication and consequent contagion, as well as to prevent any one escaping. September
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30:—The malady still rages, three more deaths have been announced, and two new cases. The Custom House officers dare not go on board."
The next day it was stated—
"The statement that the sick had been removed to Haslar Hospital is without foundation. No one is allowed to go on board or leave the vessel."
Those men, always so ready to assist others in any time of danger, were here, in consequence of the Quarantine Laws, left without relief. They come home from a pestilential climate. The vessel filled with the miasmata of disease is a lazar house. Humanity required their immediate removal to a purer, healthier atmosphere. But there is considerable delay. They are left in the focus of contagion. They might, he believed, have been taken from the vessel without any the slightest danger to others; and thus many have been rescued who were left to perish. And what were the opinions entertained by proper authorities as to the disease itself? Dr. M'William, who had more experience than almost any other medical man on the subject of the African fever, and who was now appointed to investigate the case of the Eclair at Boa Vista, altogether repudiated the theory of contagion. In his interesting Report on the Niger Expedition, where among 145 whites not less than 130 were attacked by the fever, of whom forty died, he stated that all were exposed to the same influences; that two only of the four medical officers who died had been in attendance on fever patients—others escaped who had been in constant intercourse with the sick; and no fact came under his notice affording the slightest evidence that the disease was communicated from one person to another. The Russian Government had appointed a commission to go to the Levant to report on the means of checking the progress of the plague; but that commission went out prepossessed with the theory that if articles of merchandise were subjected to a certain degree of heat, not strong enough to injure the texture, or affect the beauty of the colours, the plague would not be communicated. This he thought had been long ago established; and it was some satisfaction to know that even very decided antagonists averred, that by so simple a process as the subjecting the supposed infected article to the action of caloric, all danger was removed. The Russian commissioners made experiments upon various

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articles which had been thoroughly impregnated with the pus obtained from plague patients, or upon the garments of persons who had died of the plague. All these garments, the commissioners said, lost the power of communicating the disease when subjected to a certain amount of heat; but it would have been more satisfactory if they had ascertained whether, under any circumstances, such garments ever did, or over could, communicate the plague, even when not subjected to the heat at all. It was well known that in the bazaars in the East, the clothes of plague patients were habitually sold without losing any of their money value. He would next refer to the result of an inquiry made by the Royal Academy of Medicine at Paris, on the authority of the French Government, with a view to their giving an opinion on the Quarantine Laws. The Academy had come to the following conclusions, which in his opinion must leave the whole system of quarantine, as founded on the doctrine of contagion, without any plea or pretence whatever: they had, in the first place, found that the plague was endemic in Egypt, Syria, and Turkey; that its breaking out was to be attributed to the spontaneous action of local and atmospheric causes, and not to its importation from distant quarters. He need scarcely refer to the frequent occurrence of the plague in this country down to the middle of the last century; the history of the plague in the East now was just what it was in the West in remote time. The London bills of mortality showed how frequently it occurred here, and how many thousands it carried off; till it disappeared altogether, as more and more attention was paid to the sanatory condition of the people, by the introduction, for example, of better sewerage, ventilation, and greater comfort to the community generally. At this moment the Tuscan Government was filling up the formerly uninhabitable district known as the Pontine Marshes; and it was becoming gradually peopled, without danger from the causes that formerly made it unfit for life. The next proposition of the French Academy was, that the outbreak and progress of the plague might be arrested, and even prevented, by proper regulations for the public health; and whether it existed in an endemic or epidemic form, it was only to be counteracted by removing the causes which gave it birth. What was true of typhus fever in this country was
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true of the plague. Circumscribe it, shut it up in close quarters without light and air, and it raged fearfully. He had seen it again and again, that a crew arriving in perfect health had perished from being delivered over to the tender mercies of the sanatory laws. The result the commission arrived at was, that the plague is an epidemic disease, and that it is propagated by atmospheric influences, and not by contagion. The commission had carried on their inquiries on the widest scale, drawing information from every source, and being themselves men of the highest medical authority, and having examined every traveller who was likely to give useful information. Another resolution they came to was this, that the plague was never known to exist in a latent state beyond the period of eight days. Wherever, therefore, a vessel had spent nine or ten days in its voyage with no sickness on board, there would be no risk whatever in admitting her crew to free pratique. Now, there was no plague accession in a voyage of nine days; and hence there was not a shadow of a plea for submitting passengers to quarantine when all on board were well. Then came another very important resolution, that the plague was not conveyed by goods or merchandise. When he had moved for a return of the persons who had the manifestation of susceptible or infected articles, and who had caught the plague in consequence, the return was nil. There was no record of any disease so communicated. The apprehension of danger was a chimera and a delusion. Goods from plague countries circulated every where. Animals and birds from plague countries wandered every where. They conveyed no contagion, for it was not conveyable. There were no facts to support the present system of quarantine: still these laws were kept up, taxing the commerce of the world, according to the best estimate he could make, to the extent of from 1,000,000 l. to 2,000,000 l. sterling per annum. He believed in his conscience there was no more evidence of any security given against the plague by these sanatory regulations, than was to be found of the existence of witches or ghosts; and if there were no interested parties connected with these laws, they would not have existed so long. The next deduction the commission arrived at was, that the plague patients alone could create a focus of infection; and that in case of the plague breaking out

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on board a vessel, it must emanate from persons on board. They brought forward irresistible evidence that the common theories as to the communication of plague were crude and baseless visions—that the Quarantine Laws were not the fit security for the public health. They would bear the tests to which they had been and were now subjected. He felt indebted to the Government for what they had already done, and was quite sure that they would persevere in their efforts to remove the remains of this ancient but exploded system.
MR. HUMEthought the time was come when this question ought to be taken up, not only by Her Majesty's Government, but by the Governments of other countries. To abolish these laws would be a step not only in humanity, but towards free trade. The whole of our foreign trade was subjected by them to a delay which was highly expensive, and often ruinous. He thought as much as 120,000 l. was annually expended by this country in keeping up the system; and if it was satisfactorily made out that this expenditure was the cause of evil, and not of good, it was surely time to abolish the system. He seconded the Motion.
SIR G. CLERKsaid, on the part of the Government, he had no objection whatsoever to the production of the Papers and correspondence moved for by the hon. Member opposite. He also expressed his concurrence in all that had fallen from the hon. Member. The apprehensions which long existed in this country about the supposed contagious character of this disease, were losing ground, and it was desirable that these restrictions upon commercial intercourse should be done away with, without exciting any unnecessary alarm. From the communications he had received since this subject was last under discussion he hoped that foreign Governments would soon be convinced, from the result of the experiments which had been made to investigate the question of contagion, of the impolicy of continuing the system much longer. The preservation, however, of our own commerce in the Mediterranean required that we should deal with the matter judiciously and deliberately.
MR. MACKINNONwished also to say a few words on the present question. It was worthy of observation, in connection with this subject, that it had been ascertained when the thermometer rose to 80 degrees in any country where the plague
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was in existence, that disease ceased and yellow fever began. The hon. Member here referred to the evidence given before a Committee of the House in 1824, to show that the fact of the influence of warmth in checking the plague, was known and ascertained. It had been said in the same evidence, that in those countries where, for three or four months in the year, the temperature was so high as 80, the quarantine laws were utterly useless. What good, then, was there in continuing them, if contagion was proved not to exist? There were localities in our own country where, from poverty, dirt, bad food, and want of ventilation, diseases as bad, or may be worse than the plague, were of common concurrence. He concurred in what the hon. Member opposite had said about the Eclair, and he firmly believed, but for the operation of the quarantine laws, that more than one-half of those who had so perished in such a lamentable manner would have been saved.
CAPTAIN FITZMAURICEhaving suffered severely from the quarantine laws, was glad to hear that Government was about to reconsider the subject. The system was one which had inflicted serious injury on the trade of this country. He was at Gibraltar when the cholera broke out in England, and the consequence was that vessels arriving from Great Britain were obliged to go to Malta to ride quarantine, and then come back and land their cargoes at the rock, from eight to ten weeks being lost in the operation. He believed that the effects of the present quarantine law were to check the advance of science, literature, and commerce. Anything that could induce the different nations of Europe to establish the same period of quarantine for vessels coming from the same countries would be a very great advantage over the present system.
SIR R. INGLIShoped that they would not trust to scientific means for the prevention of disease rather than to the goodness of Providence. He did not like to talk of judicial visitations, but it would be remembered that it was just after the report of the French savants declaring cholera not to be contagious, that the disease broke out in Paris and ravaged France.
Motion agreed to.

BRIDPORT ELECTION—CASE OF WM. ROCKETT.
MR. G. BANKESrose to bring forward his Motion, that William Rockett have

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leave to state his case at the bar of the House, with reference to the Bridport election. He had proposed, in the first instance, to bring forward that subject as a question of privilege; but he had abandoned that determination in obedience to the decision of the Speaker. It was, however, his own opinion, that as the matter was one in which the privileges of an elector, or rather of an electoral body, were involved, it might be considered as one also affecting the privileges of the House. It should be remembered that the election had been decided by the single vote of the elector whose case he wished to bring under their notice. He believed that in consequence of the improper manner in which that vote had been dealt with, there was a Gentleman at present sitting in the House who had no right to be there. That Gentleman had voted on Saturday morning in favour of the third reading of the Bill for repealing the Corn Laws, while as he believed he had no right to give that vote. A boast had been made of the increase of one vote in the majority for the third reading as compared with the second reading of the Bill; but that increase could at once be accounted for by the vote in question. The House had taken into its hands the administration of a certain branch of the law; and he hoped they would, in this case, carry out a principle which was recognised in all courts of law, and admit that where there was a wrong there must also be a remedy. He would prove to them the wrong—it would be for them to say whether they would supply the remedy. A Committee had been appointed to try a petition against the return of Mr. Bailie Cochrane, as Member for Bridport. Now he admitted that no blame could be attached to Mr. Cochrane in connexion with that subject. In his opinion Mr. Cochrane had acted most honourably in resigning his seat before giving a vote which would be a contravention of an implied understanding between himself and his constituents. The Committee had proceeded to try the petition, and had made its report. It had, however, appeared to him that the House ought to have paused before it granted permission to take his seat to the hon. Gentleman, who had been declared to have had a right to be returned. The Committee had given its decision, not upon any allegation in the petition, but upon an extraneous point; and he thought that the House ought to have inquired whether or not such a proceeding was in conformity with the law of Parliament.
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The oath taken by Members of Committees was to the effect that they would "well and truly try the matter of the petition." Now in the petition to which he was referring, there was not a single word about a scrutiny, or about a mistake in any of the votes at the election. He was, therefore, of opinion, that the Committee had no right to come to the decision at which they had arrived. He was borne out in that opinion by former precedents. There was a case in which a Committee had refused to entertain a petition against a Member of that House who was at the time a high sheriff, on the ground that the fact of his being a high sheriff was not expressly alleged as the cause of his disqualification. Again, in the case of Sir Watkin Lewes, who was supposed to have been returned after the poll had been closed too early, a Committee had refused to try the petition against his return, because the too early closing of the poll had not been expressly set forth in that petition. His hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General might tell him that those were old cases; but he thought that they were not on that account the less entitled to respectful consideration. He would next proceed to show the House how important the case was as regarded the electors of Bridport. He should observe that those electors had had no notice of the attack made upon them. He had received a letter from Mr. Rockett, with whom he was not acquainted, requesting him to present a petition to the House, and stating that the mayor, the check clerk, and the poll clerk, would all testify to the truth of the statements contained in it. He had also received a letter from the polling clerk, informing him that Mr. Rockett distinctly voted for Mr. Cochrane, and did not even mention Mr. Romilly's name, asserting that his statement could be fully borne out by the check clerk. None of these parties were called before the Committee, which proceeded on entirely different evidence—on the evidence of an unknown person, who stated that he heard this person say he voted for Mr. Romilly; but he was never asked who he was, what he was, or where he came from. Really, if they were to take the law into their own hands, they were bound to administer it in conformity with the established rules recognised in the courts of law. He had shown them the wrong which had been committed; it was not for him to point out the remedy. They might have suspended the decision until they had ascertained the

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truth. The hon. Member concluded by moving—
"That William Rockett have leave to state his case at the Bar of this House, with reference to the Bridport Election."
The ATTORNEY GENERALcould not conceive anything more inconvenient or more irregular—anything more in violation of the spirit of our institutions than was contained in the speech of his noble Friend. His noble Friend proposed nothing less than an investigation into the grounds on which the Committee decided this case—and upon the evidence, and the propriety of being satisfied with that evidence which was brought before them. But what then became of the intention of the Legislature, that the determination of the Select Committee in such cases should be final to all intents and purposes, if it was competent, after that decision had been pronounced, for a Member of the House to get up and attack the decision of the Committee, and to call upon the House to entertain an argument upon the merits of the determination at which the Committee had arrived. As his noble Friend had led them astray, would the House allow him to follow him one moment; and first with regard to the observations he made about the lists. He asked whether the objection to Rockett's vote was on the lists? He was answered that it really was. But see how hard it would be upon the Committee, supposing there had been no specific objection, and that the name of Rockett had not been on the lists. The lists were not seen by the Committee; they had no opportunity of investigating whether the name of a voter was or was not upon the lists; they must rely entirely upon the opposing counsel. He had a right to object to any particular vote being objected to; and if the counsel did not object, the Committee had no right—in fact, they had no power—to investigate for themselves. Then his noble Friend said, "Why did not they call the poll-clerk?" Why, what had the Committee to do with the poll-clerk? They sat there to receive the evidence which was tendered by the parties. They could not give directions how the case was to be conducted; they must judge upon the evidence that was adduced before them; and it was not for the Committee to say to counsel, "You have better evidence behind; why do you not bring us the poll-clerk?" If the Committee had no reason to doubt the evidence which was laid before
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them, it would have been a most improper course, if he might venture the observation, for the Committee to say to a counsel, give us more evidence. The counsel would in all likelihood reply that is all the evidence on which we propose to rest our case, and we call upon you, on that evidence, to come to a decision. But really he was entering into a discussion into which he ought not to be drawn; and therefore he would now come to the Motion of the hon. Member for Weymouth, which he had purposely abstained from entering upon when he last addressed the House. The hon. Gentleman rested his case upon the precedent which had been set by the House on the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for Bath, in 1842. But it must be remembered, that after that Committee had been granted, the House saw the extreme inconvenience of the course into which it had been led; and in August of the same year, an Act was passed on the Motion of the noble Lord the Member for London, by which provisions were specifically made as to the manner in which such inquiries were in future to be conducted. By the first section of that Act it was provided, that where allegations of bribery were contained in a petition, the Committee should be at liberty to go into all the circumstances of the case, in order to ascertain whether any arrangement or understanding had been come to by which the inquiry into the cases of bribery might be prevented: to ascertain, by the oaths of the candidates and their agents, what were the facts of the case, and to report the results of the same to the House. If a further report was considered necessary, the House was bound to go into it; the Speaker must appoint a prosecutor, the Committee must reassemble, with power to examine parties on oath. But suppose the Committee should not report, whether because they did not think it necessary, or because they were not sufficiently alive to the case—for he meant to meet the question fairly—were parties, then, precluded from having the charges of bribery investigated? By no means. A petition might be presented to the House within three months of the time when the bribery was alleged to have been committed, and that petition was to be referred to the General Committee on Elections, which General Committee was to appoint a Select Committee, with all the powers of an Election Committee—that is, to examine parties on oath—and this was

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the provision which the Legislature considered as a proper substitute for the omission of an Election Committee. Now, the time for presenting such a petition had not yet elapsed; and, therefore, his objection to the Amendment of the hon. Member was, that the Legislature had already provided for this special occasion, and that instead of adopting the means which the Legislature had placed in their hands—and most efficient means they were—the hon. Member asked for that which would be a much more imperfect and unsatisfactory mode of investigation—for a Select Committee which was unable to institute an inquiry upon oath. The hon. Gentleman, in stating his case, assumed that because thirty-seven voters were charged with bribery, that of itself was a ground of suspicion. If the hon. Gentleman had had as much experience of Election Committees as he unquestionably had, he would have known that it was the most common thing in the world to object to voters on this ground. He might refer to the great Dublin case, the Committee on which sat ninety days, and where there was hardly a voter in that extensive constituency who was not objected to on the ground of bribery. The Lord Mayor of Dublin and gentlemen of the highest rank were all alleged to have taken bribes on that occasion. Then another ground of suspicion in the mind of the hon. Gentleman was, that they wished to go into the question of scrutiny before the question of bribery. Why, that was the invariable course of parties before an Election Committee, and it was easily explained. The petitioner wanted the seat; he did not want merely to avoid the election—which a proof of bribery would do—therefore he took up first the question of a scrutiny of votes, which, if he succeeded in, he would at once obtain the seat for himself; and it was only when that failed that he attempted to vacate the seat by proving the charge of bribery. The grounds on which the Amendment had been brought before the House had been placed fully before it, and he was of opinion that they were inadequate to call on the House for interference. He thought the case would be best met by allowing the usual course to be followed, and that the Committee called for by the hon. Member on the other side should not be allowed.
MR. CHRISTIEstated his willingness to acquiesce in the suggestions of the Attorney General, provided the hon. and
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learned Gentleman would pledge himself afterwards to go into an inquiry regarding the compromise that took place before the Committee, and the allegations of bribery that had been made. [The ATTORNEY GENERAL thought the hon. Member had better suspend any observations upon that point until he had discussed his Amendment.] He understood the hon. and learned Gentleman to intimate an opinion that it was not convenient to extend the inquiry beyond the limits he had stated; but the hon. and learned Gentleman had assigned no reason for restricting it as he proposed. The Amendment he was about to move would, perhaps, induce the hon. and learned Gentleman to state his reasons. In giving notice of this Amendment he had no intention to do anything discourteous to the hon. Gentleman, or to take out of his hands a question which he might be supposed to have appropriated. He thought, with the Attorney General, that an inquiry by a Committee would be much more convenient than the examination of Mr. Rockett at the bar of the House; and he entirely differed from the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes), who questioned the right of the hon. Member for Bridport to his seat. If the hon. Gentleman concurred with him in the proposal to institute a full inquiry by means of a Committee, he thought he should be able to satisfy the hon. Gentleman that if Mr. Romilly had not been seated, Mr. Cochrane would still have lost his seat. Mr. Cochrane's counsel proposed that the decision should be taken upon the transfer of Mr. Rockett's vote, in order to prevent the discovery of bribery and treating, a discovery which could not otherwise have been prevented. The very object of the compromise was to prevent the evidence of bribery from coming before the Committee. No less than thirty-seven votes were objected to as the votes of persons who had received bribes. There were objections to six others who had voted for Mr. Cochrane, because they had bribed or corrupted others, and so had disqualified themselves. Mr. Cochrane gave many proofs of a desire to avoid inquiry; and inquiry was at last avoided in consequence of a proposal from Mr. Cochrane. The day before Mr. Cochrane made a speech in that House, which would probably be in the recollection of hon. Members, a gentleman who was known to take a very active part in the elections in which the Government took an interest—he meant Mr. Bonham—called on the agent of the

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petitioners, and offered them a written undertaking that Mr. Cochrane would not again contest Bridport if they abandoned this petition. The petitioners, however, proceeded. At last the question was raised whether a mode of putting Romilly above Cochrane by the transfer of a vote could be suggested; for Mr. Cochrane, it was stated, that he would not oppose such an arrangement. The counsel for Mr. Cochrane was very complaisant; and the transfer of Mr. Rockett's vote was made without calling the poll-clerk. At the time that this Committee so quickly closed its labours, five writs had been issued for penalties against four of Mr. Cochrane's voters. He (Mr. Christie) submitted these facts to the House in the belief that he should be in a condition to prove them, if the Committee for which he asked were granted, and its inquiries were extended beyond the narrow limits which the hon. and learned Gentleman proposed. In 1842 this House granted an inquiry into the existence of alleged compromises, on a statement of the hon. and learned Member for Bath. He was prepared to state, that there had been a compromise in the present case to prevent the discovery of bribery and treating, by parties assenting to the transfer of this vote of Rockett's from Mr. Cochrane to Mr. Romilly. On that ground he begged to move as an Amendment—
"That the Petition of William Rockett be referred to a Select Committee, which shall be appointed, to inquire into all the circumstances under which Joseph Welch gave evidence before the Select Committee on the Bridport Election Petition, that William Rockett voted for Mr. Romilly, and whether any compromise or arrangement was entered into by the parties to the Petition, their counsel, or agents, to prevent the disclosure of bribery or treating; and also, whether, and to what extent, bribery and treating were practised at the last election for the Borough of Bridport."
LORD G. BENTINCK: My hon. and learned Friend, at the outset of his speech, thought proper to pass some strictures on the speech of my hon. Friend below me (Mr. Bankes), for the mode in which he had introduced his Motion before the House. I do not know what my hon. Friend could have done less, when he proposed that Rockett should be heard at the bar of this House, than to state the grounds on which he made so unusual a proposition; and my hon. Friend did not, as it appears to me, go at all out of his way, when he stated to the House the whole circumstances of the case—when he reminded the House of the oath which had been taken by the
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Members of the Committee to try the matters contained in the petition, and then to refer to the petition, and to state to the House that none of those matters were in the petition, on the strength of which Mr. Bailie Cochrane was unseated. My hon. and learned Friend seems to me to have strange notions of justice, when he thinks it right that a man should be tried on one issue, and convicted on another. I wonder what my hon. and learned Friend would think, if a man were indicted for forgery, and then, being indicted for forgery, he were convicted of rape? But, Sir, this is exactly the case of Mr. Cochrane. My hon. and learned Friend admitted that it would not be competent for petitioners to go into a question of bribery and treating, unless bribery and treating were alleged in the petition. If the petitioners are not competent to do that, how can it be competent for them to go into a question of a false entry by a poll-clerk, if no such allegation has been placed upon their petition? I should like to ask, whether, in the lists to which my hon. and learned Friend has adverted, there was any notice given of Rockett's vote being objected to, on the ground that he had polled for Mr. Romilly, though his vote was recorded for Mr. Cochrane. I find, that by Act of Parliament, in all cases of controverted elections, parties by themselves or their agents shall deliver into the clerk of the Committee lists of the voters objected to, together with the several heads of objections. I want to know, whether in the several heads of objections in this case, there was any objection to Rockett's vote, that it had been given for Mr. Romilly, and falsely recorded for Mr. Cochrane. [An hon. MEMBER: There was.] There was. The hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Christie) who stated that thirty-seven votes had been objected to for bribery, did not state to the House, that there was a separate head, in which it was objected to Rockett's vote, that it had been recorded for Mr. Cochrane, while it was actually tendered for Mr. Romilly. But there is another ground. One of the first rules of evidence is, that you are not to take secondary evidence when primary evidence is in your power. What does my hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General say to that? It was competent to the Committee to call before them Rockett or the poll-clerk—one or other of them who could have given primary evidence on this point; but neither the one nor the other of them was called

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before the Committee. My hon. Friend below me, therefore, had a perfect right to say—he never intended to say, that by the law of elections Mr. Romilly had no legal right to sit in this House; but what he meant to say was, that he had no right in equity, no moral right, to sit in this House. The hon. Gentleman on the other side says, that if we give him a Committee he shall be able to prove a case of bribery. I thought it was one of the first principles of English justice, that a man should be held to be innocent till he was proved to be guilty. Then the hon. Gentleman promises, if we grant his Motion for a Committee, to convict certain voters of bribery; and he thinks that a complete answer to the fact before us—he thinks it a complete answer to the question, that the Committee had been sworn to try the case on one ground, and that they have tried it on another. This, I think, is a grave charge to be brought against the Members of the Committee. It is something new for judges or jurymen, or members of an Election Committee, who are sworn to try the matter on a petition, loosely to try some other matter which they are not not sworn to try. This does not comport with my notions either of justice or of moral right. But it is intimated to us that there has been a compromise. I apprehend that it is no part of the duty of an Election Committee to enter into a collusion with the parties that are before them. They must try the case on the evidence which is laid before them; but the charge against this Committee is, that they tried not the matter which was before them, but some other matter—and that they tried even that other matter, not upon legal evidence, but upon secondary evidence, when primary evidence might have been obtained if they thought fit to seek it. It seems to me clear, by all the rules of law and justice, that the Committee, by all the evidence which was laid before them, have no justification for the verdict which they have made, and therefore I think that my hon. Friend was justified in bringing this matter in the perspicuous way he has brought it before the House.
MR. C. WOOD, as Chairman of the Committee, was anxious to make a few remarks to the House.
SIR J. GRAHAMmade an observation across the Table, and the hon. Member sat down.
The ATTORNEY GENERALhad been led to expect, from the nature of the
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hon. Member's Notice, that he intended merely to call the attention of the House to some injury which had been done to this person Rockett, which demanded redress; not that he proposed to bring forward charges against the Committee as to the grounds upon which they had decided in the case of the Bridport Election Petition. The hon. Gentleman had in effect said that his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Romilly), who was Member for Bridport, by virtue of the decision of a Select Commitmittee, which decision was by Act of Parliament final and conclusive, had no right to sit and vote in that House. The hon. Member should have been cautious in making such a charge, and impeaching a title which rested upon the established law. The Select Committee of the House of Commons to which an election petition was referred was a court of exclusive jurisdiction, and its decision was final; and if even they were to decide erroneously, there was no remedy. But the hon. Member said the Committee had investigated matters not properly before them; and when their Report was presented he asked the House to pause before they permitted the present hon. and learned Member for Bridport to take his seat. The House refused that application, for they had not the power to prevent that hon. and learned Member from taking his seat. Then with regard to the question of the scrutiny, he apprehended there was, as the law stood, no necessity to introduce into an election petition any allegation that a vote, or any number of votes, had been given for one candidate instead of another. When it was necessary to go into a scrutiny, a list of the voters objected to, and the specific objection in each case, must be given in by each party a certain time before the Committee met; and no objection could afterwards be entered into against any voter whose name did not appear in such lists, nor upon any objection but that specified against the voter's name. If, therefore, it had been alleged in the petition that the vote of this man had been improperly entered for Mr. Cochrane, and no list had been given, the Committee could not have entertained the objection. The hon. and learned Member said the Committee were bound to give a decision upon oath. What, he (the Attorney General) asked, was the nature of that oath? Why, that the Committee were to inquire into the matter of the petition. What was the matter of this petition? It contained the usual general allegations of bribery and treating, and then

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there was—what he admitted was absolutely necessary in order to give jurisdiction to the Committee—a complaint against the return, and praying the House to take the premises into consideration, and to declare that Mr. Cochrane was not duly elected, and that he ought not to have been returned, but that Mr. Romilly had been duly elected, and ought to have been returned. If the petition had not contained that prayer it would have been quite incompetent for the Committee to have entered upon the question as to whether Mr. Cochrane had been legally returned or not; but the petition containing a prayer to seat Mr. Romilly, the Committee were bound to hear the general evidence of the petitioner, and to decide upon that evidence. It would have been the duty of the counsel for the then sitting Member to have raised the objection that the name of the voter (Rockett) was not upon the list of those parties whose votes the petitioner prayed an inquiry into; but no such objection having been taken, it was quite competent for the Committee to receive evidence upon that vote, and decide accordingly. He denied that the Committee had exceeded its jurisdiction in dealing with any vote which might not be included in the list of objections. The hon. and learned Member for Dorsetshire had more than once said that when the House assumed this power to themselves, they should take care not to commit an injustice, or, if they did so, that a remedy might be provided. But he assured the hon. and learned Member that power was not assumed in this case. It was given to a Select Committee of the House by the Legislature, and by the Legislature were the limits of that power ascertained and defined, and the Legislature declared that the decision of that Select Committee should be final and conclusive. Under these circumstances, he asked how the hon. and learned Member for Dorsetshire could expect the House to interfere with the decision of a Committee which the Legislature had declared to be final and conclusive. He trusted that the hon. Member for Bridport would feel that he had as good a claim to his seat in that House as the hon. and learned Member for Dorsetshire. With respect to the Motion of the hon. and learned Gentleman, he certainly had some objections to its form, although not to its substance. What was the case with regard to William Rockett? He came here with a petition, and he said "that great injustice had been done him, inasmuch as he gave his vote,
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and always intended to give his vote, to Mr. Cochrane; but he found that the vote which he had so given in favour of Mr. Cochrane had been transferred to the poll of the opposing candidate;" and he said, "this had been done by reason of false and perjured testimony given before that House." Now it was quite clear that this was a case which called upon the House to institute an investigation. The only question was, as to the most convenient mode in which this investigation should take place; and he thought that the course suggested, by the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth for a Select Committee, was the more advisable of the two. One thing was clear, that the House could not refuse to investigate. He was not, however, by this general acquiescence in the Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth, to be understood as agreeing to the whole of his Amendment, but merely as regarded the vote of William Rockett. He thought perhaps it might be inconvenient to enter into an investigation at present of the latter part of that Amendment.
MR. GISBORNEwas of opinion that the law upon controverted elections having been fully laid down, no Member of that House could feel dissatisfied if that law were followed by no other mode of inquiry. Still he was of opinion that cases like the present should on all occasions receive the fullest attention, in order that it might not be said that Members were allowed to sit in the House, against the friends of whom might be brought a charge that they had connived at unfairness. Cases similar to the present often occurred. One hon. Member sat at the present moment in that House, because his opponent not caring to defend his seat, forty-six votes were at once struck off the list of those who had voted for him, and the hon. Member was accordingly declared returned. A mode existed of managing these matters. When it was not desirable that cases of bribery should be disclosed, a proceeding called "jobbing the lists" was practised. Such proceedings as these should be rendered impossible; and he hoped the Committe would not only be appointed, but that they would go to the fullest inquiry, and take other cases besides that of Rockett. Seats had been transferred from one person to another without those most interested knowing a word about the matter. Such proceedings were a great abuse of law and of justice, and he trusted the Legislature would not continue to sit

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quiet under such a condition of things. If the laws were rendered operative in such cases, he was willing to admit that he must thank the other side of the House for calling attention to the iniquitous practices.
SIR R. H. INGLISdiffered in opinion from his hon. Friend the Member for Dorsetshire, when he said they had assumed to themselves a power, and were therefore bound to exercise it with proportionate caution and forbearance. He contended that they had not assumed any such power. Their power was committed to them by an Act of the whole Legislature; and they were bound by law, and therefore it was their duty to exercise the authority with which they were so intrusted. He also differed from the hon. Member for Dorsetshire when he said that the decision of the Committee had added one vote to the recent triumph of the Government. The majority of the Government would not have been one less if the original Member had continued to occupy a seat in the House during the late divisions; for that Gentleman had already intimated his intention to vote with Her Majesty's Ministers. He also differed from his hon. Friend as to the construction of the petition upon which the Election Committee was to decide. He felt that it was not legally necessary that a petition complaining of any one election, should state any given number of charges; it was enough that A. B., being an elector, should state that C. had been improperly returned, and should pray that the House would redress the wrong. He agreed, however, with his hon. Friend, though he differed from him as to these points, that this was a matter of the gravest importance, not merely to those particular individuals immediately concerned, but to every Member of the House, and to all the constituencies which they represented. He could certainly have wished that the hon. and learned Attorney General had not interposed on the present occasion. That interposition was marked by an animation which he thought the subject scarcely called for. He also would have wished that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had not risen to prevent the hon. Gentleman (Mr. C. Wood), the Chairman of this particular Committee, from stating the circumstances connected with it. Since he had had the honour of a seat in that House he was opposed to the reopening of any judicial question which had already
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been decided by a competent tribunal; but when the House had declared that the minutes of a certain Election Committee should be laid on the Table and be printed, he could never understand the necessity for that waste of paper, of printing, and of time, if they were not to have the power of expressing an opinion upon it. He never heard such a statement of compromise—borne out, as it emphatically was by the absence of evidence to the contrary. And he hardly knew what remedy was provided, or what mode of investigation was pointed out for any such case of compromise as to bribery; indeed, there was a more appropriate tribunal than that which was now contemplated. The more appropriate one was that suggested by his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General—viz., the power granted by the Act called Lord John Russell's Act, which gave the power of examining witnesses on oath, which would fail to attach to the Committee of the hon. Member for Wigan. He held it to be a grievance that an unsworn Committee should sit in judgment on a sworn Committee. He was in the House when the late hon. Member for Bridport addressed the House for the last time; and he had then made observations which he (Sir R. H. Inglis) would not have made if he had been aware that the hon. Gentleman was about to leave the House. He could not but feel that there must have been such practices in the late election for Bridport, as, coupled with the preceding elections for that borough, might justify those who retained the elective franchise in their apprehensions lest further proceedings in a Committee of the House should lead to the disfranchisement of the borough. Under these circumstances he was unwilling that the question should stop where it did; but he hesitated about the support he should give to the Motion of the hon. Member for Weymouth, because he felt that as to bribery a better process was still open—a process which was not exhausted by the lapse of time—which a month or six weeks hence might still be as open as it was now—and by which, with a complete command of the whole machinery of the law, the inquiry might be prosecuted in a more satisfactory manner.
MR. WAKLEYregretted that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had interfered and prevented the Chairman of the Committee from disclosing those circumstances with which he thought the House ought to be

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acquainted, and he thought that the hon. Chairman had exercised a sound discretion in making the attempt. What was the case? An Election Committee had sat to determine who ought to possess the seat after the late election at Bridport; and it was disclosed that the Member who had obtained the seat had done so by a majority of one vote. Subsequently, a petition was presented to the House by the Gentleman who was supposed at the time to have lost the election, for an inquiry into the circumstances, and charging bribery and corruption on the other side. The Committee sat, and called bfeore them a voter, a man named Welch, of whom nobody apparently knew anything; and Welch was asked how another voter named Rockett gave his vote, and he stated that he heard Rockett vote for Romilly, and not for Cochrane; and, as far as the evidence before the House went, upon the single, unsupported testimony of that man, Mr. Romilly was seated as secure as if he was sitting on birdlime, and Mr. Cochrane had lost the position which he hoped to hold. Nobody disputed Mr. Romilly's legal and equitable right to the seat; for the law on the subject was so decided, that it would be child's play to dispute it for a moment. Was it not a most extraordinary thing that the Committee did not consider it their duty to call Rockett himself before them to ask how he voted? Instead of that, poor man, he was made to go up for Cochrane and come down for Romilly. It appeared to him to be one of the grossest absurdities which had ever occurred before a judicial, not a judicious, tribunal. The Committee had to discharge a duty; he admitted that it had performed that duty, and not in a creditable manner. The Chairman wished to explain the circumstances under which they were placed, but an imprudent interference had prevented him. Had not the House a duty to discharge, without referring to the ultimate effect that its decision or inquiry might have as to the legal bearing of the question? With reference to future and late legislation, was it not their duty to inquire into the manner in which these Committees worked? Also, with reference to sustaining the purity of election; for nothing could be more damaging to the character of the Legislature than that persons should obtain their seats in the House by bribery and corrupt practices. He was grateful, for one, to the hon. and learned Member for Dorchester, who had brought this question before the House; and he
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thought that his hon. and learned Friend had rendered a service by appending to the Motion the Amendment which he had made. The Attorney General had treated the question with great fairness; but he proposed that they should stop short at that part of the inquiry where its utility obviously commenced. Why should they not adopt the course which was pursued in the case of the petition from Bath? When the hon. Member for Weymouth stated in his place that he had reason to believe that there were corrupt practices at the late election for Bridport, and that if a Select Committee were granted, he should have it in his power to prove, by undoubted testimony, the existence of such practices, could the House, with any sense of propriety, refuse the investigation? He thought that words ought to be introduced extending the inquiry to both parties. The House would not discharge their duty to themselves or to that portion of the public who desired to see Members returned by pure practices and not by bribery, if they limited the investigation to the point put by the Attorney General.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the hon. Gentleman had fallen into an error, in reply to the Attorney General's argument. The hon. and learned Gentleman did not proceed on the assumption, that it was not right to make an inquiry into circumstances such as they were now discussing, when they were brought before the House; but his argument was, that Parliament had laid down a particular course for a strict and searching inquiry into transactions of this nature, and that it was not, therefore, expedient in this or similar cases to take upon themselves inquiries before an unsworn Committee into facts and circumstances with respect to which the law had provided the means of inquiry before a sworn tribunal. The hon. Gentleman said, "You have these facts before you, will you not inquire into them?" An hon. Member might come down and say, "I was present at the election of an hon. Member, when such and such scenes took place; and I call on you to have a Select Committee." This law was framed with reference to the very case to which the hon. Member had adverted; for it was immediately after inquiries, at the suggestion of Mr. Roebuck, that Lord John Russell introduced this measure, remarking on the inconvenience which resulted from conducting inquiries of that nature in the way in which they had been conducted. He laid

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down the rule that there should be a bonâ fide charge substantiated on the best evidence, and that it should be submitted to the best tribunal—viz., that of Members acting under an oath to discharge their duty. His hon. Friend had expressed his readiness to inquire into the transfer of a vote: there was no unwillingness to have the charges inquired into; but the law had pointed out how they should be inquired into; and if the Committee had omitted a duty in not recommending the House to proceed with the inquiry, the parties had the remedy in their own hands. His hon. Friend who had opened this discussion seemed to apprehend that he had been subjected to something like a grievance in not being allowed to bring forward this question as a matter of privilege. He thought the hon. Member was acting under an error as to what came within the definition of privilege. The question of privilege was confined to those acts which affected the immediate rights of the House, or the rights of particular Members to discharge their duties within the House; and therefore questions as to Members who were wrongfully in the House, or who were wrongfully excluded from the House, or who had their rights infringed upon so as to prevent them discharging their duties, had precedence of other questions; but the privilege of an elector did not come within the category of interfering with the discharge of the duty of a Member within the House.
MR. ROMILLYsaid, that he was not going to say one word as to the question, but in reference to what the hon. Member for Finsbury had stated that this question was presented by him (Mr. Romilly). When the late election for Bridport was concluded against him, he felt somewhat dissatisfied, but declined, though pressed to do so, to take any steps whatever to reverse the decision. He was pressed on several occasions to be the petitioning party against Mr. Cochrane, but declined to be connected with the petition, or to have anything whatever to do with it. The petition was presented in the name of a voter; he knew nothing of its being brought forward except by casual report, from his learned Friends, who, thinking he might feel interested, came and spoke to him on the subject. He never was consulted by any person with regard to the petition, consequently he was a total stranger as to whether there was a compromise or not. So far as this Motion was concerned, personally,
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he should wish the fullest possible inquiry into all the circumstances connected with the late election for Bridport. He should not wish an inquiry as to what one side or what one candidate had done, but the fullest inquiry into everything that had taken place; and he pledged himself, as far as he was able, to give the fullest possible assistance. He would suggest to his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General, that the proceeding under the Bill of the noble Lord would be more effective if the proceedings were carried on, not at the costs of the parties to the petition, but at the expense of the county, otherwise the petition would be presented under the Act.
MR. AGLIONBYagreed with what had fallen from the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley), that it would have been a great advantage had the hon. Member for Halifax, the Chairman of the Committee, given his opinion on this question. He (Mr. Aglionoy) did not think that the Committee would be compromised or its functions interfered with; and the hon. Member would have spoken merely on his knowledge of the facts, and those facts would have guided the House in its decision. He could not see the grounds on which the hon. and learned Gentleman (the Attorney General) objected to the Amendment. What was there which could interfere with the functions of the Committee on the Motion "that the petition of William Rockett be referred to a Select Committee?" But the hon. and learned Gentleman objected to the concluding portions—"whether any compromise or arrangement was entered into by the parties to the petition;" and "whether, and to what extent, bribery and treating were practised at the last olection for the borough of Bridport?" The first was agreed to, the second and third were objected to; and the Attorney General said he objected to an inquiry in this way, because there was another mode; but he (Mr. Aglionby) said there was no other mode open to the House. It had been argued that the 5th and 6th Victoria, cap. 102, put an end to the functions and jurisdiction of the House in this matter; but this was a mistake. The provisions of that Act were entirely concurrent with the jurisdiction of that House. The Act must be construed by itself, and not by anything that might have fallen from its promoters; and the Act contained no words excluding the jurisdiction of the House. The first section gave power to the Committee, at

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its discretion, to take certain steps; but the Committee were not bound to exercise that power. If they had sufficient evidence before them to raise a suspicion that there was a compromise, it would be their duty to proceed in the inquiry; but supposing the Committee had no evidence tendered to them, it was no imputation upon the discretion of the Committee to say that they might not consider it their duty to originate an inquiry. He assumed that neither of the parties before the Committee tendered evidence to raise a suspicion of bribery or of compromise; and if so, the Committee were not bound to raise it of their own accord. There was another mode of proceeding; the House might appoint a Committee, with certain modes of acting, who might examine witnesses upon oath, and report the result to the House, and the expense of that Committee (for there the hon. Member for Bridport was mistaken) would be borne by the public if there was a primâ facie case. But it was a perilous thing to attempt to set up a primâ facie case. And the party petitioning must be a voter, and what motive could a voter have for taking such a step? It must be purely and entirely from public spirit. Could it be expected that a voter would do from public spirit what the House would not do to-night? In the next place, there must be an allegation of "general and extensive bribery;" but his hon. and learned Friend asked for inquiry on another ground. In this case he had no doubt that in the borough of Bridport there were grounds for suspecting bribery, and that a compromise had been entered into, and that Rockett had been juggled out of his vote; but he knew nothing of the facts, or of Rockett or Welsh? but no Member, he thought, could have much doubt that there had been a compromise to prevent further inquiry. He should vote for the Motion, not intending any imputation upon the integrity or discernment of the Committee. He recommended his hon. and learned Friend to withdraw the latter part of the Amendment.
MR. C. WOODbelieved he should, on the whole, best exercise his discretion by saying a few words upon this question; if he was wrong, he hoped the House would extend its indulgence to him. He did not intend—which would be wrong—to enter into a justification of the proceedings of the Committee; but he thought he should not transgress the limits of his duty by stating a few facts. He apprehended that
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the duties now of Election Committees were of two different kinds; they had judicial functions, under the now Grenville Act; and under the Act of his noble Friend the Member for the city of London they had inquisitorial functions. As to their judicial functions, the mention of them suggested two considerations—first, their exact jurisdiction; and, secondly, the exercise of that jurisdiction. Their jurisdiction was of this character, that they could not call for any evidence, but must be contented with that which was adduced by counsel; and the exercise of their jurisdiction was, that upon the evidence so adduced they should pronounce their decision. This was precisely what they had done in the present case. No doubt had been thrown upon the evidence that was adduced—no adverse testimony had been given to prove its falsity—and therefore the Committee had no option but to receive it as true, and decide accordingly. It was impossible, therefore, that the conduct of the Committee could be impeached. It was not usual for Election Committees to call for lists; but when they were brought before them in the course of arguments by counsel, it was, of course, their duty to take them into consideration. It had been said by some hon. Member—he believed the hon. Member for Finsbury—that the Committee had made no inquiry with respect to the circumstance of the voter himself not having been called; but, in point of fact, the Committee themselves were proceeding to call the voter before them when a point of objection was raised by counsel, who proved that the Committee had no power to make any such call, and showed that it was incompetent for them to act on such evidence. It was very possible that under the present system of Election Committees the interests of the voters were not sufficiently attended to. It was, perhaps, quite true that the voter's vote was too often disposed of in the manner which appeared to be best suited to the interests of the litigant parties, and without any regard to his own interests, and possibly without his consent or knowlege. If this was so, inquiry might be very desirable, with a view to remedy the evil by wholesome legislation; and an investigation for that purpose should have his assent. Nor would be have the slightest objection that an inquiry should take place into the circumstances under which Welch gave his evidence; but he did not think there were the slightest grounds for impeaching

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the conduct of the Committee. They could not themselves originate a presumption of bribery. No adverse testimony was adduced; and as no doubt had been cast upon the only evidence before them, they were bound to believe it true. Their duty was merely to make a scrutiny into the validity of the election, and this they had done. The case had been compromised, and it did not occur to any Member of the Committee that it was one which called for further investigation. With respect to the allegation of bribery, that was a matter which, if it was now proposed to investigate it, should be inquired into only by such a tribunal as that sanctioned under Lord John Russell's Act. He was decidedly averse to any inquiry at this stage of the proceedings into the matter of the compromise, for he thought that such an inquiry would be a most bootless one. Such an inquiry would now be quite useless. It could only have been of service as affording evidence from which the bribery might be inferred; but if anything was to be investigated it should be the allegation of bribery itself, and that should be inquired into by such a tribunal as was appointed under Lord John Russell's Act.
MR. B. ESCOTTsaid, that the noble Lord the Member for Lynn would not have attacked the Committee as he had done if he had known the facts of the case; and, considering that the Committee were bound by oath to discharge their functions, he should have thought if the noble Lord had any complaint to make, it would have been made, not by insinuation, but by direct and straightforward accusation; but if the noble Lord had been in the habit of speaking from information, the House would not have heard from him so many long harangues as they had been favoured with during the last two months. However, the proceedings of the Committees had not been generally attacked; indeed, he did not know how they could be, by any one who had not been present, and who could know nothing of the proceedings except from a printed paper, of which he chose to read only such parts as suited him. At all events, no person could doubt that the present Member for Bridport was the proper representative of that town; for he thought that when his learned Friend Mr. Austin, representing the claimant of a seat in that House, threw up his brief, that was sufficient ground for any judicial tribunal to proceed upon. Every Member must desire that there should be a searching
904
inquiry into any corrupt proceedings at the Bridport election. The only question with him was, what tribunal would be the best to investigate that matter. He did not venture to say decidedly that it might not have been more discreet in the Committee to have carried their inquiry further; but when the noble Lord the Member for Lynn threw out imputations against members of a Committee, as honourable as himself, he begged to remind the noble Lord that in the next sentence he had said that the Committee were bound by oath to decide on the evidence brought before them; and it was impossible to deny that they had so decided upon the evidence which was produced before them.
MR. BANKESsaid, that to deny that the hon. Member for Bridport was de facto sitting in that House, would be absurd. He was sitting there; but the majority of the electors of Bridport felt injured by that circumstance. He was there, they alleged, against their desire; and that was a wrong for which, if possible, they should find a remedy. He had discharged the duty to the House which he was requested to perform, namely, to present the petition to the House, and, in conformity with the prayer of that petition, to pray that the party should be heard. He had limited his application to that, and it was his desire that the House should be able to satisfy themselves that this was a genuine petition. It appeared to him that it was a genuine petition; but the most satisfactory way of ascertaining that was, by bringing the petitioners to the bar of the House. The hon. Member for Weymouth, however, had substituted an Amendment, to which he (Mr. Bankes) was ready to accede; but when he asked him whether he was disposed to move for a Select Committee, he told him that he was already on other Committees which sufficiently occupied him, and he could not sit on any other Select Committee. The Attorney General had mentioned that this petition was sufficient to meet the case that had been tried before; but he begged to call his attention to the fact that there was not one word in this petition which met the case that was tried. There was not one word in this petition which alleged that a vote was improperly put on one poll that ought to be put on the other. The prayer of the petition was this—that the House should take the premises into their consideration, those premises being what was contained in the petition, and that the parties should get such

905
relief on the premises as to the House should seem met. As to what had been said by the hon. Member for Oxford with regard to the jurisdiction of the House, he (Mr. Bankes) did not think that he had used any improper phrase when he said they took a considerable branch of the law into their own hands; and when they had done so, it was their duty to keep the law which they had so taken into their hands as pure and free from suspicion as they could. It appeared to him that it was desirable to have this very singular transaction investigated; and as there was no other mode of doing it, he should concur in the Amendment of the hon. Member for Weymouth.
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, the attention of the House had been called to this subject on the Motion of his hon. Friend who had just concluded his address to the House. And his hon. Friend had stated a fact which appeared to him (Sir R. Peel) to be very deserving of the attention of the House; namely, a voter was declared by a Committee to have voted for a candidate for whom he asserted that he did not vote. He said, that thereby his character was injured; that he had uniformly voted for a party professing certain principles; but that the Committee of the House of Commons had declared that he had voted for the opposite candidate, and that the consequence of that was, that the vote which he had given for one candidate was given to another. It was quite clear that by the statute law of the country, so far as the seat was concerned, that was decided. There could not be a question of it that the present Member for the town of Bridport (Mr. Romilly) was entitled to the seat. He had a statutable parliamentary right to it; and no decision on the part of that House, no other authority than that of an Act of Parliament, could deprive that Gentleman of the right to which he was entitled by the statute law of this country. Redress, therefore, even if wrong had been committed, would not be given in that case; but it was for the House to consider whether or no, on an allegation of a petitioner that injustice had been done to him, they would not institute an inquiry into that specific case. He confessed that, in his opinion, an inquiry ought to be instituted into that specific case. If there was no other mode of conducting the inquiry, he should vote for the original Motion, namely, that the party should be called to the bar; but he thought there was another and more
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efficacious mode of conducting the inquiry, namely, by means of a Select Committee. That Committee would have the power of examining the evidence, and the inquiry would be much more complete before a tribunal of that kind than it probably could be if the time of the House were occupied in hearing the party at the bar. He proposed, therefore, that a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire into the facts. Then came another question—whether they should institute a more extensive inquiry. He must say, he believed it would be much better in this case to adhere to the law which was passed at the instance of the noble Lord (Lord John Russell), and not institute an inquiry, except it were an inquiry under the provisions of that Act. There was nothing he should regret more than that that House should undertake to interfere unnecessarily in this case. There was a constant tendency on the part of the House to draw within the sphere of its own functions those matters which should be referred to tribunals constituted under the law, and with functions defined by statute. What were the provisions of the Act proposed by the noble Lord? That Act was calculated, he (Sir R. Peel) apprehended, to defeat the concealment of improper practices, by means of compromise. It contemplated a double object—the defeat of compromise, and also the defeat of attempts to prevent inquiry into bribery by lapse of time. The noble Lord's Act gave the Committee appointed to adjudicate upon election matters the right to make a special report; to state that there was reason to apprehend that the inquiry into bribery had been defeated by means of compromise; and on making that special report there was reserved to the House full opportunity of instituting an inquiry. The House assumed that the Select Committee appointed to adjudicate upon the election, would, if they saw sufficient grounds, have made a special report, and provoke their inquiry. If there had been sufficient grounds to institute an inquiry into the fact of compromise, the Committee over which the right hon. Gentleman had presided should have made that report. His presumption was entirely in favour of the integrity of the Committee, and of the acuteness and judgment of the members who composed it. The House devolved upon them the power of saying whether there should be an inquiry into compromise or not. They had the facts before them—they made no special report to the

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House—they were not prepared to recommend that special inquiry which the House directed should be instituted on special report. Now, what as to hribery?—what was the mode of instituting an inquiry as to bribery? It did not depend upon the presentation of a petition within fourteen days after the election. The noble Lord's Act provided that in case any one person entitled to vote should allege extensive bribery, and within three months after an act of bribery was alleged to be committed, should petition that House, in that case an opportunity should be afforded of instituting an inquiry into that alleged bribery. It was not necessary to prove extensive and general bribery; he apprehended all that was required was that the petitioner should state his belief that extensive and general bribery prevailed in a particular borough — that he should bring proof of the act of bribery, one or more acts of bribery, and enter into recognizance that he bonâ fide entertained the belief which he professed to act upon. And if he did allege extensive bribery, and enter into recognizance, provision was made for the appointment of a Committee, which would institute that inquiry, and it was enacted that that Committee should have all the functions and power that an Election Committee should possess. That Committee was to have the power of examining witnesses, and was armed with all the powers which a mere Select Committee of the House of Commons did not possess. And all its functions were called into action by the petition of one single voter, alleging his belief of general and extensive bribery, and that he was prepared to enter into recognizances to prove it. And did the Act impose on the petitioner the pecuniary expense of instituting that inquiry? On the contrary, it provided that if the Committee reported that there were reasonable grounds for the allegation in the petition, the Committee should have the power to order that the costs of the petition should be borne, as in the case of any public matter, with reference to which an inquiry had been directed by the House of Commons. If they were dissatisfied with that law let them alter it. It appeared to give extensive powers for inquiry into compromise—it appeared to give extensive powers for inquiry into bribery; and what it required was, in case a petition was presented, the party presenting it should have a vote, and enter into a recognizance to prove it. The noble Lord had brought forward that Bill
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after the institution of that Select Committee which was appointed at the instance of the hon. Member for Bath. The general feeling was, that when the proceeding did directly affect the right of a seat in that House—when it affected the rights of a Member of Parliament, that it would be be inconvenient to appoint a Committee on any Member undertaking to prove certain allegations. It was thought to be inconvenient to appoint a Select Committee without an allegation upon oath, and the noble Lord offered this remedy. He said, "I give you this opportunity for inquiry into the allegation before a Committee—I will enable you to institute that inquiry within three months after an act of bribery is committed, on the petition of any voter, and I save him harmless from pecuniary expense, if the Committee certify that his allegation was probable, and that there was reason for entertaining the belief that bribery had been committed." That Bill was passed to give security to Members (after their right to their seats was decided upon) from vexatious inquiry. Those were the provisions of the law, and he saw no reason whatever to question the policy and justice of that law, for he thought that further opportunities should be given for inquiry by a tribunal armed with all the powers that an Election Committee possessed. It was quite competent for them to alter that law; but while the law remained in force, and until its inadequacy was proved, were they prepared to see all the ill consequences that would arise from the House interfering? Whether this tribunal was deficient or not, seeing the injury to the character of the House, what at a former period of their history—50 or 60 years since—was inflicted by party spirit deciding the right to vote; and, seeing the tendency of the House to interfere with the decisions of Committees, he for one should resist any other inquiry into this matter except that inquiry which was sanctioned by the law proposed by the noble Lord, and which would have for its object to rescue the character of an individual who alleged that he had been injured."
MR. CHRISTIEwas willing to adopt the suggestion of the hon. Members for Cockermouth and Oxford, and leave out the latter words of his Motion, namely, "and also whether and to what extent bribery and treating were practised at the last election for the borough of Bridport."
MR. T. DUNCOMBEobserved, that if

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they did not inquire into the allegation of compromise, and their reason for it, they would not do anything. The petitioner, Rockett, complained that the Committee had transferred his vote from Cochrane to Romilly without his consent; and he said in his petition, such a proceeding was repugnant to his feelings, and highly indignant to his character. They complained of this; and if there was only to be an inquiry into this man's character, it would be a mere waste of time, for they might at once admit that the course taken was "highly indignant to his character." If any one possessed of common sense read the evidence taken before the Committee, and printed by order of the House, he would at once see that it had been completely bamboozled. The Committee, before it struck off the name of Rockett, should either have sent for that person, or had some better evidence than that of Welch. It appeared as if the learned counsel for Mr. Cochrane had been retained against him, and that they were resolved that Mr. Romilly should be declared duly elected. Was the evidence which had been printed of such a nature as to justify them in depriving a Member of his seat, or was it such as should satisfy the House? Was it not clear that the object of the whole proceedings before the Committee was to defeat the Act of Parliament? He hoped that the House would go into the case of compromise.
MR. LABOUCHEREcould not agree that the principal thing to be inquired into was, whether an injury had not been done to Mr. Rockett. There was another question, of far greater consequence—namely, whether a fraud had not been practised on the Committee of the House. There was a primâ facie case that fraud had been practised. He did not cast the smallest imputation on the Committee, but it was quite possible that a plan might be concocted in a borough to practise a deliberate fraud on a Committee; and if there was reason to suppose such had been the case, it was due to the House and the Committee to inquire into the fact. It had been said that it would be improper to inquire whether extensive bribery existed or not, because the proper remedy was to present a petition under Lord John Russell's Act. But what was the use of inquiry into a compromise if no inquiry was made into the bribery? A compromise was no offence. It might be a matter of perfect propriety if further investigation
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would be a mere waste of time. A compromise was only an offence when it was done to conceal bribery.
MR. HENLEYsaid, the discussion which had taken place on the question, would increase the opinion out of doors that election inquiries were little better than a farce. The allegation in the petition was bribery and treating; but the decision given by the Committee was on a point not sent to them by the House. How came the question of bribery to get the go-by? The Gentlemen on the Treasury bench said, that bribery should be inquired into by the Bill of the noble Lord; but, in his opinion, that Act was framed for the express purpose of eluding all inquiry into that subject. In point of fact, a general understanding existed in boroughs not to petition on the ground of bribery, lest their borough should be disfranchised; but when they did petition, to petition on some general allegation, calculated to throw dust in the eyes of the public. Unless the House granted the inquiry proposed by the hon. Member for Weymouth, the whole matter, from beginning to end, would be a mere farce. The question was, whether a compromise existed or not; or had the Committee been bamboozled, as the hon. Member on the other side stated. That required to be cleared up and set straight; if not the general opinion would be that the House shut the door against all inquiry.
Motion and Amendment withdrawn.
MR. CHRISTIEmoved his Amendment as a substantive Motion.
The ATTORNEY GENERALmoved, as an Amendment, the omission of all the words after "Romilly."
The House divided on the Question, that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question:—Ayes 47; Noes 47.

List of the AYES.

Bankes, G.

Escott, B.

Barnard, E. G.

Gisborne, T.

Bennet, P.

Henley, J. W.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Hume, J.

Bentinck, Lord H.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Beresford, Major

Lambton, H.

Blackstone, W. S.

Law, hon. C. E.

Borthwick, P.

Lawson, A.

Bowring, Dr.

Lowther, hon. Col.

Brotherton, J.

M'Carthy, A.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Marsland, H.

Christopher, R. A.

Morris, D.

Collett, J.

Napier, Sir C.

Curteis, H. B.

Neeld, J.

Duke, Sir J.

Powell, C.

Duncombe, T.

Protheroe, E.

Elphinstone, Sir H.

Rashleigh, W.

911

Rich, H.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Scott, hon. F.

Wakley, T.

Spooner, R.

Wawn, J. T.

Stuart, Lord J.

Williams, W.

Tancred, H. W.

Wedchouse, E.

Thornley, T.

TELLERS.

Tollemache, J.

Aglionby, J.

Trelawny, J. S.

Christie, W.

List of the NOES.

A'Court, Capt.

Hay, Sir A. L.

Antrobus, E.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Barkly, H.

Hinde, J. H.

Baring, rt. hon. W. B.

Hope, G. W.

Blackburne, J. I.

Hudson, G.

Bowles, Adm.

Hutt, W.

Boyd, J.

Kelly, Sir F.

Bruce, Lord E.

Labouchere, rt. hon. H.

Cardwell, E.

Lygon, hon. G.

Carnegie, hon. Capt.

Mahon, Vise.

Chichester, Lord J. L.

O'Connor, Don

Clay, Sir W.

Palmerston, Visc.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G.

Peel, J.

Corry, rt. hon. H.

Russell, Lord J.

Courtenay, Lord

Somerset, Lord G.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Stanton, W. H.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Stuart, H.

Gladstone, Capt.

Thesiger, Sir F.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Trench, Sir F. W.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Vivian, J. E.

Greene, T.

Wood, C.

Grimsditch, T.

TELLERS.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Young, J.

Harcourt, G. G.

Cripps, T.

MR. SPEAKERsaid, that as the House had no better means of forming a judgment upon the question than the Election Committee who had already declined to entertain it, and as it would still be open to any elector of the borough, under the provisions of the Act 5 and 6 Vict. c. 2, to present a petition to the House, praying that a Committee, having power to examine upon oath, might be appointed to investigate the subject of bribery and compromise, he therefore declared himself with the Noes.
The Question, as amended, was put from the Chair.
MR. HUMEmoved the adjournment of the debate until Thursday, as Mr. Christie and other hon. Members had gone away thinking the question was settled.
Debate adjourned.

RAILWAY COMPANIES DISSOLUTION BILL.
House in Committee on the Railway Companies Dissolution Bill.
On Clause 11,
MR. GISBORNEobjected to the great powers that the Bill proposed to give to a minority of shareholders.
SIR G. CLERKremarked, that cases might occur in which parties connected with a scheme might wish to force it on by undue means, and with that view continue to have their meetings held at a period when it would be extremely inconvenient for the shareholders to attend. To avoid that, the Bill enacted that such meeting might be adjourned, to afford greater facilities to shareholders to record their assent or dissent.
MR. HUDSONobserved, that those persons who might be favourable to the prosecution of a scheme against the desire of the minority of the shareholders, could, after the dissentients had withdrawn, reform themselves into a new company to carry out the project. He inclined to the opinion that every facility ought to be given to the minority to relieve themselves from future liability.
Clause agreed to.
Bill passed through Committee.
House resumed.
Bill to be reported.
House adjourned at Twelve o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1°. Customs Duties.
Reported. Election Notices (Ireland); Insolvent Debtors Act Amendment.
3a. and passed. Western Australia.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Guardians of the Lewes Union, for Repeal of Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act, so far as respects the Building and Maintaining County Lunatic Asylums.—By the Duke of Richmond and Earl Warwick, from Tamworth Heathside, and a great number of other places, in favour of the Corn Laws.—From Turriff, and several other places, for Protection of the Agricultural Interest.—From several Charitable Institutions, against the Charitable Trusts Bill.—By Lord Campbell, from Elie, and several other places, praying that a Bill may be passed for compensating Proprietors of Lands for the Purchase of Sites for Free Churches (Scotland).—From St. Clement Danes, and St. Martin-in-the-Fields, for the Prevention of Sunday Trading.—By the Bishop of St. David's, from Cardigan, praying that Means may be provided for extending Education to the Poorer Classes in Wales.

EDUCATION IN WALES.
The BISHOP of ST. DAVID'Spresented a petition from the borough of Cardigan, the prayer of which he supported. It was in favour of the education of the children
860
of the poor in Wales in the English language, and also praying for their mental, moral, religious, and industrial training. The right rev. Prelate added, that at present there existed in Wales a pressing want of education with a most scanty means of obtaining it; and he suggested that the whole question, as far as the Government was concerned, was, what power they had to supply that deficiency. He (the Bishop of St. David's) was happy to hear that an inquiry had been set on foot by the Government at the instance of an hon. Gentleman in another place; but in his opinion inquiry was superfluous, because there could be no doubt of the facts. The only question, as he had said, was, what power existed in the Government to supply the defect which all acknowledged to exist in that Principality. He believed they had had sufficient experience to know there was no hope whatever of accomplishing what they all so anxiously desired—namely, the founding of some good and extensive measure for the education of the people of Wales; but, nevertheless, he hoped the inquiry might terminate in some substantial benefit. He believed that if the Government had it not in their power to do all these petitioners desired, they yet had it in their power to do a great deal that would be highly beneficial to that country; but he did not wish them, under present circumstances, to attempt to do everything. He thought it advisable that they should at present confine themselves to the attempt to draw forth the energies and resources of the country with reference to education; and that they should act on the principle of eliciting and meeting the advances of the people. In those places, however, where there was such an utter deficiency of means that nothing could be done without the assistance of the Government, he thought they ought to furnish some immediate and pecuniary assistance. He did not believe that it was in the power of any Government, however strong it might be, to do all that the petitioners appeared to suppose it possible for them to accomplish. He did not think it would be possible at once to produce a change in the language generally spoken in Wales. He was aware a strong opinion had been expressed elsewhere that all that was required in Wales was English schoolmasters to root out the language of the country; but his experience in Wales convinced him that this was an incorrect representation. In many districts of Wales English schoolmasters had been established

861
for a considerable time; but the Welch language continued the ordinary language of the people, and the knowledge of the English language among the children of the poor was extremely scanty; and their use of it out of school next to nothing. He did feel, however, that this was a subject which called for the active interposition of the Government. It was quite notorious in that part of the country with which he was more particularly connected, that if the means of education had been more extensively employed some time ago, and pains taken to improve the moral and intellectual condition of the country, there would have been no need whatever for the imposition of that burden under which they were at present labouring; namely, the soldiers and the police which had been found necessary to maintain the tranquillity of the country. He must observe, also; that although these soldiers and police were extremely useful in their way, and served to protect the country from a variety of evils, there were yet some evils from which they afforded no protection whatever. They might protect the public tranquillity, but he was sure they proved no safeguard of public morality. On the contrary, the presence of these people only made the work of education more needful and more difficult, while they were consuming and absorbing the sources which might be applied to that desirable end; and he would, therefore, ask their Lordships whether they would prefer that Wales should be protected by soldiers and policemen rather than by the less expensive and more efficient means of a body of schoolmasters.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEexpressed his entire concurrence in the important suggestions thrown out by the right rev. Prelate. He considered, however, that they had upon the Table of Parliament, at that moment, the most ample means of arriving at a correct judgment on this subject. It appeared from the Report of the Commissioners appointed two years ago to inquire into the lawless proceedings in Wales connected with the Rebecca riots, that in the districts where those excesses prevailed there was an entire want of anything like a good system of education. He believed that, since the Parliamentary grant for educational purposes, there had been a regularly increasing demand upon the Government for assistance towards the establishment of schools; and although the number of school inspectors had been recently
862
increased by Government, there was not now a sufficient number to exercise an efficient inspection over the schools already established. He thought that some increased efforts ought to be made by Parliament, for the extension of education; but he was not prepared to say that a different principle from that adopted in England ought to be applied to Wales. He hoped that, whatever Parliamentary grants might be made for educational purposes, the principle of local exertion would never be abandoned.
LORD BROUGHAMwas glad that the attention of the Government had been called to this important subject; for that portion of the United Kingdom to which the right rev. Prelate had referred, peculiarly required assistance on a liberal scale from the funds at the disposal of the Government for the promotion of education. He was happy to find that there was a universal concurrence in the principle—a general principle only to be relaxed as occasion, or necessity, or local circumstances might require—that no grant ought to be made towards any local scheme without requiring that a certain proportion of the necessary funds should be contributed in the locality. He was glad to find this recommendation of the Educational Commissioners sanctioned by such high authority.
The DUKE of BUCCLEUCH, with reference to the observations of the noble Marquess (Marquess of Lansdowne), said he was happy to say the number of the schools in the country were increasing so rapidly, that it was quite true it was not at present in the power of the Government inspectors to visit them as frequently as was desirable; but the subject was under the consideration of the Educational Committee of the Privy Council, and he hoped that measures for increasing their number and efficiency would be speedily adopted.
Petition to lie on the Table.

CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL.
The DUKE of BUCCLEUCHmoved that the Bill be read 1a.
The LORD CHANCELLORthen put the question, when
The DUKE of RICHMONDsaid, he could not allow this Bill to pass—to be read a first time—without expressing his opinion that this measure was positively adding insult to injury. Their Lordships were now called upon to consider two Bills for depriving the agricultural interest of

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protection; and if they looked at the Votes of the House of Commons, they would find that those measures, which were called remedial measures, and which were introduced simultaneously with the Corn Bill, but from which he did not anticipate much benefit, had made very little progress. He thought it most unfair to the agricultural interest that these two measures, attacking them, should have been brought into their Lordships' House before the other measures to which he referred had passed a second reading in the House of Commons. The only remedial measures from which he anticipated any benefit at all, was that under that which it was proposed to lend money for the improvement of land. He thought that such a measure might, to a certain extent, be of some value; but he considered this Bill and the Corn Bill to be as bad measures as could possibly have been introduced. This Bill was inconsistent with the declaration of the Ministers themselves. They were told that the Ministers wished to establish free trade; but he would ask if there was a single line in this Bill for the establishment of free trade? It was, certainly, a free-trade measure with reference to the agriculturists and the landed interest; but they would find, on looking into the Bill, that there was to be no reduction of duty upon our cottons in India. It was true the duties on some manufactures were to be reduced, but that was not free trade. He objected to free trade altogether; and, though the Minister might propose to take away all protection from the agricultural interest, he (the Duke of Richmond) was not prepared, because the Minister robbed the agricultural interest, to turn robber himself, and, by establishing free trade, to throw out of employment the great body of the operatives of this country. He considered that this was a most unjust measure; that it would throw out of employment a large body of silk weavers in this country; and that it would convert Spitalfields into a mass of pauperism. Many parts of this Bill were extremely obnoxious. He called upon their Lordships to remember that, though the Members of the Government had in their speeches advocated free trade, they had not carried out free-trade principles to the utmost. There was nothing in this Bill to destroy differential duties. If they allowed corn to come into this country from the United States duty free, to the great injury of their Canadian provinces, he asked whether, on the principles of free trade, they ought not to permit the
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Canadians to buy their cotton in the cheapest market? If they did this, the coarse cottons of this country would no longer be consumed in Canada, which now took from us a greater amount of this description of manufactures than the whole of the United States. The Americans would then beat us out of the Canadian markets with their coarse cottons, as they had done in the South American markets, and as they were near doing in China, where they ran our manufactures very close. One of the great leaders of the League, a cotton manufacturer in Cheshire, Mr. Greg, had expressed his opinion, that before long he should see the coarser cottons of America competing effectually with our coarser cottons in Manchester itself. He (the Duke of Richmond) entered his protest against this Bill, as he had already protested against the Corn Bill. He must again repeat, that he regretted these Bills had been sent up unaccompanied by what were called the remedial measures to which he had before alluded. Sir R. Peel had declared his intention to do something to relieve the agriculturists from highway rates, and the burden of medical relief; but this was not to be done by a Bill; it was to be by an annual vote in Parliament. Why had not Sir R. Peel given the landed interest security by a Bill, instead of by Resolutions? For if the right hon. Baronet left office, and he was succeeded by the noble Lords on his right (the Opposition), they might not be able to maintain it, and then the League would come in, and they would not allow them the penny per acre which Sir R. Peel proposed to give to the agricultural interest.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, these preliminary discussions were very inconvenient; but he could not allow the observations of his noble Friend who has just sat down to pass as conclusive. The noble Duke complained that the measure read a first time last night established a system of free trade, and that the one just brought up was not a measure of free trade. The noble Duke contended, therefore, that there was a difference between the two measures of the Government as they affected commerce and agriculture. He could not acquiesce in one part of the noble Duke's objection to the measure, as it would affect the finances of the country. He denied that the principles of free trade required, on the part of their Lordships, or of any abstract reasoner, a sacrifice of the revenue duties of the country. The principles of free trade demanded the sacrifice

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of protection, but they were not at all inconsistent with the maintenance of revenue duties on those articles and in that manner which rendered them least burdensome, to the people. The principle which he contended for was, that when they put their hands into the pockets of the people, they should do so in order to obtain, at the least possible expense to the people, that amount of revenue which the public service required; and he could not agree to the statement that in the maintenance of the revenue duties there was any affirmation of, or opposition to, the principles of free trade.
LORD BEAUMONTthought, that the course which his noble Friend on the cross benches (the Duke of Richmond) had taken was not only consistent, but necessary. The noble Duke had placed the case in this way. He objected to the Bill which they had read a first time last night. He said, that it was opposed to the principle of protection, and therefore he was opposed to it; and in speaking of the Bill then before the House, he had remarked that it was inconsistent with the principle of the former Bill, inasmuch as the principle of protection was retained. Whatever his noble Friend might have thought of the Bill, he thought that their Lordships ought at any rate to maintain a character for consistency, so far as that, if in the first Bill they agreed to an abandonment of the principle of protection, they ought not in the second Bill to introduce a contrary principle. It was in his (Lord Beaumont's) opinion absolutely necessary that the Bill before them should be delayed until they had given the first Bill (the Corn Importation Bill) a full consideration, in order that they might know how far the second Bill could be reconciled to the first Bill, and thus judge of the degree of consistency between the two measures. He hoped that his noble Friend (Lord Monteagle) would act up to the principles he had advocated in his speech, and consider the second Bill solely on the principle of revenue duties; and if he did so he would agree to some of the objections urged by the noble Duke on the cross benches, for he would find duties retained in the Bill with respect to the trade of the Colonies, and to the silk trade, which had been looked upon as protection duties. He hoped, therefore, that he would regard all the articles enumerated in the second Bill solely with a view to the maintenance of revenue duties, and not with respect to
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the principle of free trade and protection. He would assure his noble Friend, that the interpretation which was put upon free trade by the country was that which was put upon it by the Anti-Corn-Law League, namely, the total abolition of duties. Those who now opposed the cry of free trade would be found perhaps, when protection was taken away from one interest, ready to join in that unfortunate cry; and they might rely upon it, that the Custom House itself might not long survive the bonded warehouses. His noble Friend on the cross benches had spoken of free trade in the sense in which it was understood out of doors; and he could assure them, that in agreeing to that cry of free trade, they would run the risk of seeing the customs duties assailed at a future period.
LORD BROUGHAMfelt that no advantage could result from anticipating the discussion of this Bill, for there was no doubt that it would be discussed when the Corn Bill was before them; but he could not allow this discussion to close without protesting against the idea that it was an impeachment of the principles of free trade to maintain duties for the purpose of revenue. There was no ground for such a supposition in proposing to take the duty off corn, the principal food of the people.
EARL GREYagreed with the noble and learned Lord that this was an inconvenient period for the discussion of the Bill, and he hoped that when it was proposed for a second reading, when it would no doubt be fully discussed, the Government would be prepared to state the grounds upon which they had introduced a Bill proposing to do so much, and had not introduced a measure to do more. He agreed with some of the observations made by the noble Duke on the cross benches; but although he did not look upon it as anything like free trade, yet he would accept it as an instalment of free trade. He had not changed the opinions which he had maintained ever since he came into Parliament; he was against all protection to all kinds of interests. He wished to see duties levied for revenue, and for revenue only. He was prepared—and he was conscious the country was prepared—for a general reform of our commercial system, in order that there might be unrestricted liberty afforded to industry; and that was a system the advantages of which would be recognised, if it were once adopted, by both producers and consumers. The noble Duke on the cross benches referred

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to Canada, and stated that the Canadians were not placed on equal terms with the people of the United States, if they were compelled to compete with them in our markets, and were not allowed to obtain the cheap coarse cotton fabrics of America. Now, he (Earl Grey) would state, on behalf of the great and intelligent body of the manufacturers of this kingdom, that they were willing and prepared to give up all protection, for they did not depend upon protection for their success, but upon their enterprise and energy and skill, and that as they wished to buy corn where it was cheapest, so they did not expect that the Canadians should be compelled by a differential duty to give the preference to their cottons. If they applied their skill and capital to the manufacture of the superior descriptions of cotton, and the Americans, from the cheapness of cotton and other facilities, were able to manufacture coarse cotton cheaper, they might both advantageously employ themselves.
LORD ASHBURTONconsidered the measures which hnd been introduced to their Lordships' notice on that and on the preceding day, of vital importance—he meant, of course, the Bill respecting the Corn Laws and the Tariff, which they were now discussing; and he thought it was proper that they should have before them the entire of that new system, and see the whole produce of that new light which had suddenly dawned upon the Government. Whether these measures were for good or for evil—whether they would bring round such an extraordinary state of prosperity as his noble Friend opposite seemed to anticipate, or whether they would be essentially detrimental to all the industrial classes of the community, as he was inclined to think, it was of the highest importance, and every way becoming in their Lordships, that these measures should receive the greatest possible attention. He did not find fault with any noble Lord for inviting a discussion even upon the first stage of such measures. From first to last their Lordships must be desirous of having all the light possible thrown upon subjects of such immense consequence. As for the definition of his noble Friend opposite (Lord Monteagle), he did not think much of it. He agreed with his noble Friend in thinking it a question of protection or no-protection. He did not approve of that tricky, shuffling sort of definition, which was not very intelligible or distinct, and which was
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not generally accepted in the complicated sense in which his noble Friend had used it. It was easy to understand the views of the noble Earl (Grey), who was quite a purist—whose free-trade opinions were free from a tinge of protection. He confessed he was at a loss to understand the policy of the Government. They had restrained the German Zollverein and the French from exporting their produce into this country—they had for years kept a system of restriction; and upon what experience were they now about to abandon it? They had incurred immense expense and risk—they had engaged in heavy and expensive wars for the purpose of maintaining their Colonies—they had insisted, at the loss of much blood and treasure, on protecting their Colonies by giving a preference to their produce; and, on the other hand, providing that our manufactures should have a preference by our Colonies; but now it seemed there was to be no preference whatever. Why keep the Colonies at all? Why incur all this enormous expense? Not to benefit themselves, but to benefit the whole world. You will have the charge, they the advantage. He repeated, this was a system perfectly new and unusual; and he very much doubted whether those manufacturers, of whom his noble Friend entertained such great and magnanimous feelings, would take such comprehensive and disinterested views as his noble Friend imagined. He (Lord Ashburton) thought their opinions would be more tradesmanlike, and, notwithstanding the interest they evinced in commercial reform, would, when they found no preference given to their fabrics, even in the Colonies, over American goods, alter their opinions, and begin to see the value of protection. The coarser description of cotton goods, which were manufactured in the United States, would, in the event of perfect free trade, speedily come into competition with ours in the Canadian market, and our manufacturers would find the case very different in respect to this class of goods, with the finer fabrics, which were consumed by a higher and smaller class only. Some time ago there was a meeting at Manchester—a free-trade meeting—and a Manchester man, in urging the free-trade doctrines, said, there was the Macclesfield silk weaver who would have no objection to the introduction of foreign silk duty free; but Macclesfield manufacturers who were present, though quite approving of free trade in any other article, begged to be excused

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as far as silk was concerned. In short, these free-trade theories, though people might give a general approval of them, they would, when it came to their own case, be quite ready to dissent from, and, in that respect, be stern protectionists. They might as well expect that the Newcastle coalowners would be willing to have free importation of fuel there, as that the manufacturers would be willing to have a free importation of foreign goods. The Government had brought in two measures: one, the Corn Bill to affect agriculture; the other, the Tariff to apply to commerce. Supposing both interests to be equally affected by the respective measures, they would, after all, be only equally injured. As to the Tariff being any compensation to the farmer, it was no more a compensation to him, than to the crew of a foundering ship to be told that their neighbours in another ship, which had struck against a rock, were going down also.
The EARL of DALHOUSIEagreed with every noble Lord who had spoken, that it was inconvenient and unusual to enter into the discussion of these measures at present; but, unlike them, would act up to his belief. But he could not permit the sentiments which had been uttered to go forth without at the same time stating, that if these assertions had not been contradicted—if these opinions had not been controverted—it was not from any unwillingness to engage in argument, but merely because the Government did not consider this the proper stage for discussion. When the proper time arrived, the Government would be fully prepared to state the reasons which had induced them to bring these measures before Parliament; and he also stated that they would be able to show to their Lordships good grounds for asking them for their ready and unqualified support.
The DUKE of RICHMONDagain rose and said: My Lords, my noble Friend who has just sat down, says it is unusual to enter into a discussion on a subject of this kind in the present stage of the Bill; but I must remind him, without in any manner wishing to make a personal attack, that it is also "unusual"—most unusual—for a Government to change their opinions so suddenly on great questions of public policy—and for the Government of one year to vote and argue against free trade, and the same Government in the following year to vote for and argue and introduce a free-trade measure. If the Government will
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pursue so unusual a course, particularly without appealing to the country — although the Members of the other House were returned without the sense of the electors having been taken on this most important principle—I say we are perfectly justified—under such extraordinary circumstances, in taking the unusual course of objecting to the first reading of the Bill. I could not permit the Bill to receive the first reading, entertaining the strong opinions I do, without recording my protest against it. I am willing and anxious—[A Noble LORD: Spoke.] I will not be prevented from delivering my opinions on this most important subject—I am much too old a man to be put down in that way. I say that the principle of this Bill is contrary to the principle of the other measure—the one is a free-trade measure, and the other proposes only partial free trade. But my objection is to the principle of both. I wish to maintain protection to British industry. I wish to maintain protection, because I think on the preservation of that principle depends the happiness, the welfare, and the prosperity of all classes of my fellow subjects.
The EARL of DALHOUSIEexplained, that he did not mean to say the noble Duke had not a perfect right to oppose the first stage of the Bill.
The EARL of HADDINGTONsaid, there could not be the slightest doubt that his noble Friend on the cross bench exercised his right, as a Peer of Parliament, in entering his protest against a Bill upon the Motion being made for the first reading; nor did he understand his noble Friend behind him to blame for having so done; but his noble Friend spoke of that as an inconvenient time for discussing the measure, because it was, as he said, an unusual course. He entirely concurred in that opinion of his noble Friend, and without following the example that had been set by several noble Lords, each of whom had started three or four different points of discussion, he would merely say that it was not correct to assert that the present Government had ever been determined enemies to free trade.
Bill read a first time.

CONVICTS IN AUSTRALIA.
EARL GREYbegged to ask the noble Lord (Lord Lyttelton) whether any measures had been taken for establishing a new Colony to be called North Australia, which, it appeared from the Papers before the House, was to be constituted almost exclusively

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of persons who had undergone the sentence of transportation, and who were called emancipists.
LORD LYTTELTONsaid, the scheme had already been carried out to a great degree, and that all the necessary proceedings, so far as they depended upon Her Majesty's Government, had been taken. It would not be convenient to enter upon an irregular discussion of this measure; but he must be permitted to say he was surprised at his noble Friend (Earl Grey) having brought the subject forward at so late a period, because he must have seen from the Papers before the House what were the intentions of Her Majesty's Government. As to this new Colony, it was to be a new settlement within the boundary of New South Wales, in the north of Australia. It was not, necessarily, to be occupied entirely, or even at all, by emancipists. It was certainly intended to ameliorate the state of those convicts who had gone through their punishment in Van Diemen's Land, where there was no demand for them, in consequence of which many of this unfortunate class were there entirely destitute. These persons, by various methods, would have facilities afforded of proceeding to this new settlement; and it was also intended that facilities should be given to the poorer classes in this country to proceed there; also to prisoners from Pentonville and Parkhurst. This was the means held out for relieving Van Diemen's Land of the surplus convict population.
EARL GREYintimated that he should bring the subject forward again at a future period.
House adjourned.