Sitting of 26 June 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS. — Reported. Sugar Duties; Spitalfields New Street.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Bouverie, from Members of the Free Church Congregation at Renfrew, complaining of the Refusal of Proprietors of Land to grant Sites for the Erection of Free Churches (Scotland), and praying that Means may be devised for enabling Congregations to rent or purchase Ground on Reasonable Conditions.—By Viscount Clive, and Lord Henry Lennox, from several places, against the Union of the Sees of Saint Asaph and Bangor, but at the same time providing for the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.—By Mr. Smollett, from Moderator and Remanent Members of the Synod of Lothian and Tweeddale, against the Abolition of Religious Tests in the Scottish Universities. — By Lord Henry Lennox, from Guardians of the Westbourne Union, and by Viscount Morpeth, from Ratepayers of Snaith and South Crossland, against the Highways Bill.—From Minister and Members of the Remonstrant Presbyterian Congregation of Ballymoney, for the Total Abolition of Capital Punishment.

PLACES OF WORSHIP, &c. SITES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
MR. F. MAULEsaid, that although he found he could not, with any prospect of advantage, attempt to proceed further with this Bill, he was happy to observe that its introduction had not been without good effect, for since the measure had been under the consideration of the House, two noble Lords—the Earl of Cawdor and another—had given sites for places of worship, and he hoped their example would be followed. He now moved that the Order of the Day for the Adjourned Debate

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on the Second Reading of the Bill be discharged.
SIR J. GRAHAMexpressed his satisfaction at the information communicated by the right hon. Gentleman, who, he thought, exercised a wise discretion in not pressing the Bill under the circumstances. He joined with the right hon. Gentleman in the hope that the example of the two noble Lords to whom he had referred would be imitated, and that the measure would be rendered unnecessary.
Order discharged.
The several Orders of the Day having been disposed of, the House adjourned at half-past Seven o'clock.
[All business was postponed, it being understood that in consequence of the vote on the previous evening the Ministry was at an end.]

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. Saint Asaph and Bangor Dioceses; Trial of Offences (Ireland).
2a. Correction of Clerks.
Reported. County Works Presentments (Ireland).
Received the Royal Assent. Corn Importation; Customs Duties; Administration of Criminal Justice; Explosive Substances.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From the Parish of Goodrich, for Repeal of Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.—From Clergymen of Suffolk, for the Better Maintenance of Church Discipline.

THE NEW HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
The MARQUESS of CLANRICARDEmoved an Address to Her Majesty, praying that She would be pleased to order that the New House should be forthwith prepared for the reception of the Peers. The noble Marquess said the Address was quite in accordance with the report of the referees, who stated that the only impediment arose from a delay in the arrangements for warming and ventilating the House according to the views of Dr. Reid. They stated also that the architect had expressed his readiness to undertake the warming and ventilation on a plan of his own, and that if this proposal were not accepted, they thought the occupation of the New House would be indefinitely postponed. He (the Marquess of Clanricarde) would have been content to leave the question of ventilation to the Woods and Forests, but that the Chief Commissioner, as so large an expense had already been gone to in carrying out the experiments of Dr. Reid, preferred that the opinion of Parliament should be taken on the subject.
VISCOUNT CANNINGsaid, he should not oppose the Address, but he had within the last five minutes received a petition from Dr. Reid to that House, in which he stated that he had seen the report of the referees with surprise, and prayed that he might be permitted to lay before the House the drawings he had made for the ventilation of the House of Peers, and stated that he was prepared to have the House of Peers ready for occupation at any time in three months after the order was given. He protested also against the ventilation being transferred to another, unless to one superior in the science of ventilation. He also observed, in his petition, that Mr. Barry had, from time to time, expressed his approval of the plan.
LORD SUDELEYthought that Dr. Reid had been rather harshly treated; and entered into a statement of circumstances
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to show that there was no ground for the charge that he had interfered unnecessarily with the arrangements of the architect. He asserted that the ventilation of the House of Commons was most complete and perfect, and was the first plan of systematic ventilation ever carried out in this or any other country; and yet with this successful instance before them, it was now proposed to supersede Dr. Reid and to appoint an individual in his place of whose knowledge of the science of ventilation they had no proof whatever. He reminded their Lordships that Dr. Reid had promised to have the new House ready for their accommodation, so far as he was concerned, within three months from the time of the order being given.
LORD REDESDALE, in answer to the noble Lord, called the attention of the House to the fact, that though Dr. Reid had told the Committee that all his plans were ready for the ventilation of the New House, yet when they asked him to produce his drawings of those plans, he had been unable to do so. Under all the circumstances, he thought the Committee were justified in coming to the conclusion they had done.
LORD CAMPBELLadmitted that it was of importance that their Lordships should get into the New House as soon as possible, and that they were suffering not a little from remaining there; but at the same time he would rather that that suffering should continue a little longer than that injustice should be done; and injustice he thought would be done if they superseded Dr. Reid in the manner proposed. He believed that Dr. Reid was a man of science, and that he had conducted the process of ventilation more successfully than any modern philosopher. He (Lord Campbell) had been for many years a Member of the other House, and could bear his testimony to the fact that Dr. Reid's success in the House of Commons had been unbounded. He admitted, however that nothing could be more detestable than the result of the learned Doctor's experiments in their Lordships' House. But this was not the fault of Dr. Reid, but of the materials he had to operate upon. It was quite true that they were sometimes in Greenland and sometimes in Bencoolen, and that nothing could be more annoying or more prejudicial to health and comfort; but Dr. Reid had told them from the beginning that he did not believe he could do anything with it, as they did not give

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him the means; that he would do all he could to reform their Lordships' House, but that he despaired of accomplishing it; and that if they honoured him with the care of the ventilation of the New House, he could make it as perfect as the ventilation of the House of Commons. He (Lord Campbell), therefore, thought that it would be unfair to deprive him of the honour of carrying his promises into effect.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEwished it to be distinctly understood that in voting for the Address to Her Majesty, he gave no definite judgment with respect to Dr. Reid. He should be sorry if, by that vote, he were to be regarded as pronouncing condemnation on Dr. Reid, even with respect to the imperfect ventilation of that House; for he distinctly remembered Dr. Reid stating that it would be impossible for him to render the ventilation of that House so perfect as he could wish; but the question for their Lordships to consider at present was, not what Dr. Reid's plans might ultimately prove to be, but what chance there was, within any assignable period, of their getting possession of the New House? And as their object was to get into the New House, if possible, by next Session of Parliament, he thought that object could only be accomplished by agreeing to the Address which had been proposed.
LORD ASHBURTONsaid, it seemed clear to him that if their Lordships and the Government did not interfere, the discussions between Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry might become interminable, and their Lordships would never get into their new House at all.
EARL GREYconcurred in thinking, that unless they agreed to this Address, it was problematical when they might get into the new House. At the same time, considering how complete had been Dr. Reid's success in the House of Commons, he (Earl Grey) was extremely sorry that it would be impossible, without great delay, to adopt Dr. Reid's plan in the first instance in the New House; but, though this was the case, it would not be impossible hereafter to adopt Dr. Reid's plan, if Mr. Barry's should be found unsatisfactory.
Motion agreed to.

THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
LORD BROUGHAMwished to know from the Under Secretary for the Colonies,
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whether Mr. M'Dowall had been restored to the office of Attorney General for Van Diemen's Land?
LORD LYTTELTONreplied that he had not, but that he had been appointed a Commissioner of Insolvency, an office which was inferior in emolument, but not in the respect which it commanded.
LORD STANLEYobserved, that as well as his memory served him, Mr. M'Dowall's dismissal had been caused in consequence of the bad feeling that existed between that gentleman and the Solicitor General of Van Diemen's Land. This animosity had been carried to such an extent as to endanger the satisfactory prosecution of the public business. He had never heard that Mr. M'Dowall had been dismissed for any corrupt, illegal, or dishonourable conduct.
LORD BROUGHAMstated that he should move for the production of Lord J. Russell's despatch on Monday.
House adjourned.