Sitting of 31 July 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1°. Copyhold Commission; Turnpike Acts Continuance; Stock in Trade; Highway Rates; Loan Societies.
2°. Court of Common Pleas.
Reported. Consolidated Fund (£4,000,000); Joint Stock Banks (Scotland and Ireland).
3°. and passed. Burial Service (No. 2).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. O'Connell, from Teetotallers of the City of Dublin and its Vicinity, for the Adoption of Measures for promoting the Due Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Mr. Bagot, from Parishioners of Llanfairtalhaiarn, from Vicar and Inhabitants of the Parish of Llanarmon-yn-Yale, from the Clergy and Parishioners of the Parish of Llanfair Dyffryn Clwyd, and from the Inhabitants of the Borough of Sunderland, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, but at the same time providing for the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.—By Mr. Christie, from Ratepayers and Freeholders of Saint Weonards, for Repeal or Alteration of the Lunatics Act and Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Act.—By Mr. Rumbold, from Inhabitants of Great Yarmouth, for the Abolition of the Punishment of Death.—By Sir De Lacy Evans, from Inhabitants of the Parish of Saint Clement Danes, in the Liberty of Westminster, in Vestry assembled, for Alteration of Law respecting Metropolitan Sewers.—By Mr. Sharman Crawford, from Landowners of the Baronies of Upper and Lower Castlereagh, against the Tenants Compensation (Ireland) Bill.

CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.
LORD J. RUSSELL: The hon. Member for Bolton and other hon. Gentlemen have Motions on the Paper respecting corporal punishment in the army. I have lately had an opportunity of seeing the Commander-in-Chief, the Duke of Wellington, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary at War has also had an interview with his Grace. We find that the Commander-in-Chief has measures in contemplation not for the abolition of the power of inflicting corporal punishment in the
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army, but for the regulation of its exercise. I think, therefore, that it would be inconvenient to have a discussion upon the subject before the Commander-in-Chief has matured his measures. I hope, therefore, that my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton will consent to postpone his Motion, and that I shall ere long be in a condition to inform the House what measures are contemplated.
DR. BOWRING: I collect from the noble Lord that the whole subject is under the consideration of Government, and I should be sorry that any Motion of mine should interfere with their decision; but I consider myself so pledged to the public, to the popular feeling, and to what may be called the general mind, that I musk ask the noble Lord, if the measures to be proposed by the head of the army do not appear satisfactory, to allow me to bring the question under the notice of the House before the end of the Session. I feel myself bound to press on the attention of the House this interesting and painful subject.
MR. OSBORNE: Having given notice of an Amendment, I may be allowed to say, that the declaration of the noble Lord has given me so much satisfaction that I shall not, under present circumstances, think it necessary to press my Amendment.
MR. W. WILLIAMS: I wish to ask the noble Lord whether it is intended to take into consideration the same question as regards punishments in the navy? When the Estimates are before the House, on the question that the Speaker leave the chair, I shall also think it right to bring before the House the subject of courts martial.
LORD J. RUSSELL: What I said was, that the Commander-in-Chief of the army has the subject under consideration, with a view not to the abolition but to the regulation of the exercise of corporal punishment. I have not had any communication, with the naval authorities, and I am, therefore, not at present able to give any answer to the question of the hon. Member for Coventry. As to what my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton has said, if he be not satisfied with the contemplated measure of the Commander-in-Chief, I will take care that he shall have an opportunity of expressing his dissatisfaction.
MR. HUME: The noble Lord was not present the other night during the discussion on the articles of war, as applied to the navy: had he been present, he would

245
have seen that the punishments were, upon nearly all occasions, death—death—death—and that it is absolutely necessary to make some change. A hope was then expressed that this matter would be made a subject of revision.

RAILWAY LEGISLATION.
MR. HORSMANasked whether it was the intention of Government to propose any measures to facilitate railway business in the House? He was aware that a Committee was sitting, which had not made its report; but the nature of its Resolutions was pretty generally known. A Committee of the House of Lords had also made an excellent report, which was upon the Table. At the beginning of the Session there had been so many complaints, that the Prime Minister had felt called upon to come down and ask the opinion of the House as to the course to be pursued: the Session ought not to close without something being done prospectively to lessen the evils of the present system. He wished to ascertain, therefore, whether any and what measures were in contemplation to remedy what had been a perfect infliction on the House, and most unsatisfactory to the public.
SIR G. GREYreplied, that it was quite true that the Committee had not yet made its report, and until it was before the House he could not pledge Government to carry any of its recommendations into effect. He did not know what those recommendations might ultimately be. It was equally true, that a Committee of the other House had made a report; but he was not prepared to say whether any measures would be founded upon its important recommendations. One of them was, that some means should be adopted as to the proof of compliance with the Standing Orders, with a view to avoid the great inconvenience and pressure so fully adverted to in the document. It seemed desirable that a plan should be adopted this Session in order that it might come into operation in the next.

WAYS AND MEANS—SUGAR DUTIES.
On the Question, that the Speaker do leave the chair to go into Committee of Ways and Means,
MR. SPOONERsaid, he did not rise to oppose the Motion that the House do now resolve itself into Committee, nor would he delay the doing so for more than a very few minutes. His object in rising
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was to ask the indulgence of the House while he very briefly stated the grounds on which he gave his support to the proposition of Her Majesty's Government. He had attempted to do so on a former occasion; but from the number of hon. Members who were more immediately connected with the West India interest, and therefore had a stronger claim to the attention of the House than he had, an opportunity of so doing was not afforded to him. The proposition of Her Majesty's Ministers brought under the consideration of the House two very important points—one, the great question of protection; the other, the effect which the measure proposed, if carried out, would have upon the Slave Trade and slavery. He had, however, determined, before he gave his vote, to lay aside every preconceived opinion, and give to the subject full and unprejudiced investigation. The result of this investigation was thoroughly to convince him that the present system was ineffectual for the purpose for which it had been adopted; and that the proposed measures would not give a stimulus to the Slave Trade, nor tend to the continuance of slavery. Had he continued to doubt upon the subject, nothing should have induced him to give his support to those measures. His noble Friend the Member for Liverpool had, in his judgment, clearly proved that the view he (Mr. Spooner) had stated was the true one. That speech was remarked upon by the noble Lord the Member for Stamford, in the last debate on this subject; and that noble Lord stated that it was unintelligible, and endeavoured to controvert it. Now, he (Mr. Spooner) thought it perfectly intelligible, and that it brought the question before the House in a clear and correct manner, and was unanswered and unanswerable. The noble Lord the Member for Liverpool stated, that all the sugar that was grown was consumed—that the supply was far from being equal to the demand—that the increase of the supply was not commensurate with the continual increase of demand—and, that so long as that continued, the exclusion of slave-labour sugar from this country caused a larger consumption amongst ourselves of free-labour sugar, drew so much more of that sugar from the continental market, and made a vacuum in that market, which slave-grown sugar supplied. Now, if the attempt thus made to exclude from our markets slave-grown sugar had proved ineffectual, how could we justify longer continuing

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to resist its admission, when by so doing we laid a great burden on the working classes, to whose comfort a low price of sugar contributed?—how, in justice to the manufacturing interest, could we continue a system which could be proved beyond doubt to be most detrimental to that interest? A considerable trade might be carried on between this country and Brazil; but at present the duties levied in Brazil upon the iron and other manufactures of Birmingham were so high as greatly to limit, if not altogether prevent, the exportation of such goods. We were assured by the Brazilian Government, that if their sugars were admitted on the same terms as other foreign sugars, they would admit our manufactures upon the same terms as those of other nations. These restrictions on our trade did not, however, really check the exportation of Brazilian sugar. A mercantile firm in Birmingham had recently sent a person to Germany to buy German goods with British capital, which were sent to Brazil, the means of payment for which must ultimately be provided by the exportation of sugar. The merchants found that the only way of keeping up their connexion was to buy German goods, very much to the injury of the trade of this country, which could only be paid for with slave-grown sugar. This country was much more likely to effect the suppression of the Slave Trade, if they kept up a friendly intercourse with Brazil, instead of attempting to interfere with the internal arrangements of that country. He was, upon principle, a thorough protectionist, and thought that protection to native industry was the surest foundation on which the prosperity of this country rested. As long as protection could be maintained, he had endeavoured to support it; but Parliament had now decided by a great majority that the principle of protection must be abandoned. As long as protection was maintained, it must be in its integrity as a great whole; it could not be preserved for the colonial interest, when taken away from the landed interest. He should vote in favour of the new duties, under a full conviction that by so doing he should not cause any stimulus to be given to slavery or the Slave Trade. Believing also, as he did, that the principle of protection would be found the surest way in which the taxation of the country could be supported with the least pressure upon the working classes, he was, in principle, as decided a protectionist as ever. The British labourer, of
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every description, was really the person most interested in the maintenance of protection; for the principle of protection was simply this, that the produce of no man's labour should meet the produce of British labour in the British market without contributing an equal share to the taxation of the country. Parliament had decided that that principle should no longer be adhered to—was it then just to say to the British labourer, "You shall have to contend with foreign competition in the articles you produce, but you shall not have the benefit of competition in the articles you consume?" To those who agreed with him, that protection was the principle upon which the commerce of this country ought to be conducted, he would say, that they would be far more likely to bring about its re-adoption by carrying out the contrary principle to its full extent. Protection never could again be adopted except by the united voice of the whole nation. A divided Parliament—a divided nation could never restore it; nothing but one universal demand for it, occasioned by the evil consequences which he feared would be found to result from what was called free trade, would effect that object. This universal agreement never would be obtained until all interests were brought to feel the evil consequences of the abandonment of protection. It had been urged that the West Indies had a particular claim to exemption, arising from our legislation with respect to the emancipation of their slaves; for this we had already paid twenty millions, and he (Mr. Spooner) conceived that that fully balanced that account—not that he grudged that twenty millions; for he thought it worthy of a great Christian nation thus to endeavour to get rid of a system the continuance of which would have inflicted an indelible disgrace upon a Christian people.
SIR R. H. INGLISsaid, that amongst the many defeats he had sustained in that House, there was none that he felt more keenly than that which was conveyed in the decision of the House on Tuesday last. If by any opposition on his part he could hope to reverse that decision, his efforts would not be wanting; but when the majority was so large, he could not but be conscious that opposition was hopeless, and could only lead to irritation and a useless interference with the discharge of public business. He did not rise then for the purpose of renewing the debate of Tuesday last, nor for the purpose of answering—as

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it might easily be answered—the speech of the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Spooner), the last convert to free trade, and the latest abandoner of the principle of protection. He would only state, that deeply as he regretted the injury which would be sustained by our countrymen in consequence of the change that had been decided on in the course of the last few days; deeply as he regretted the majority by which that change was produced, being a combination of individuals and parties such as perhaps the wildest imagination of any man in the House could never have expected upon such a subject; and still more deeply as he regretted the decision as it affected the almost incalculable increase of the greatest curse of humanity that the last three centuries had seen—he referred to the Slave Trade more particularly—yet in a hopeless contest like that which he believed this to be, he would not weary the House by repeating the arguments that had proved so ineffectual in the mouths of better and abler men than himself during the late discussions; and therefore he would take the present opportunity of throwing the whole responsibility, both as it respected the great colonial interests of England, and as it respected the far higher interests of general humanity, upon those who, in defiance alike of one and the other,

2. On Sugar or Molasses the growth and produce of any other British Possession within the limits of the East India Company's Charter:—

CLASSES.

From and after the passing of this Act to 5 July, 1847, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1847, to 5 July, 1848, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1848, to 5 July, 1849, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1849, to 5 July, 1850, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1850, to 5 July, 1851, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1851.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

Candy, Brown or White, Double Refined Sugar, or Sugar equal in quality to Double Refined, for every cwt.

1

6

3

1

5

6

1

4

4

1

3

3

1

2

0

The same duties as on Candy, Sugar, and Molasses, the produce of other British Colonies.

Other Refined Sugar, or Sugar rendered by any process equal in quality thereto, for every cwt.

1

3

4

1

2

8

1

1

8

1

0

8

0

19

8

White Clayed Sugar, or Sugar rendered by any process equal in quality to White Clayed, not being Refined, for every cwt.

1

0

5

0

19

10

0

18

11

0

18

1

0

17

2

Brown Sugar, being Muscovado, or Clayed, or any other Sugar, not being equal in quality to White Clayed, for every cwt.

0

17

6

0

17

0

0

16

3

0

15

6

0

14

9

Molasses, for every cwt.

0

6

6

0

6

4

0

6

1

0

5

9

0

5

6

had proposed and carried the present measure.
House in Committee.
The following Resolutions were moved by the Chancellor of the Exchequer:—
1. Resolved—That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty in lieu of the Duties of Customs now payable on Sugar or Molasses, the following Duties shall, from and to the respective days herein mentioned, be charged on Sugar and Molasses imported into the United Kingdom, (that is to say),

1. On Sugar, or Molasses, the growth and produce of any British Possession in America, or of any British Possession within the limits of the East India Company's Charter, into which the importation of Foreign Sugar is prohibited, and imported from thence, from and after the passing of this Act:—

£

s.

d.

Candy, Brown or White, Double Refined Sugar, or Sugar equal in quality to Double Refined, for every cwt.

1

1

0

Other Refined Sugar, or Sugar rendered by any process equal in quality thereto, for every cwt.

0

18

8

White Clayed Sugar, or Sugar rendered by any process equal in quality to White Clayed, not being Refined, for every cwt.

0

16

4

Brown Sugar, being Muscovado or Clayed, or any other Sugar not being equal in quality to White Clayed, for every cwt.

0

14

0

Molasses, for every cwt.

0

5

3

3. On Sugar or Molasses, the growth and produce of any foreign country:—

CLASSES.

From and after the passing of this Act to 5 July, 1847, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1847, to 5 July, 1848, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1848, to 5 July, 1849, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1849, to 5 July, 1850, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1850, to 5 July, 1851, inclusive.

From and after 5 July, 1851.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

Candy, Brown or White, Double Refined Sugar, or Sugar equal in quality to Double Refined, for every cwt.

1

11

6

1

10

0

1

7

9

1

5

6

1

3

3

The same duties as on Candy, Sugar, and Molasses, the produce of British Colonies.

Other Refined Sugar, or Sugar rendered by any process equal in quality thereto, for every cwt.

1

8

0

1

6

8

1

4

8

1

2

8

1

0

8

White Clayed Sugar, or Sugar rendered by any process equal in quality to White Clayed, not being Refined, for every cwt.

1

4

6

1

3

4

1

1

7

0

19

10

0

18

1

Brown Sugar, being Muscovado, or Clayed, or any other Sugar, not being equal in quality to White Clayed, for every cwt.

1

1

0

1

0

0

0

18

6

0

17

0

0

15

6

Molasses, for every cwt.

0

7

10

0

7

6

0

6

11

0

6

4

0

5

9

2. Resolved—That the Bounties or Drawbacks following be paid and allowed upon the exportation of certain descriptions of Refined Sugar from the United Kingdom (that is to say),

Upon Double Refined Sugar, or Sugar equal in quality to Double Refined, for every cwt.

£

s.

d.

1

0

0

Upon other Refined Sugar in Loaf, complete and whole, or Lumps duly Refined, having been perfectly clarified and thoroughly dried on the stove, and being of an uniform whiteness throughout, or such Sugar pounded, crushed, or broken, for every cwt.

0

17

0

Upon Bastard or Refined Sugar, broken in pieces, or being ground, or powdered Sugar pounded, or crushed or broken, for every cwt.

0

14

0

On the first Resolution,
MR. D. BARCLAYrose and addressed the Committee in opposition to the Resolutions. He urged the importance of affording our West Indian Colonies a supply of free labour. He observed, that there was a wide difference between labour, which, in the case of free negroes, was optional, and the work of fourteen or
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sixteen hours a day, which was exacted from the slaves in Cuba or Brazil. It could not be expected, if the duties upon foreign or colonial sugar were equalized, that the attachment which was now exhibited by our Colonies towards the mother country would be permanent. Indeed, he considered the withdrawal of protection from our Colonies was tantamount to severing the connexion between them and this country. If this measure should, however, be adopted, he thought that every restriction which prevented the consumption of our colonial sugar and rum in this country should be removed. A certain amount of protection was still given to our manufacturers; and if a similar protection was not to be extended to our colonists, one almost felt inclined to ask whether they were to be regarded as our fellow subjects. He hoped, if the measure of the Government was adopted, that no obstruction would be offered to the introduction of free labour into our colonial possessions, or to the unrestricted use of colonial sugar in the breweries and distilleries of this country. The hon. Member for Dover had stated the other night that in consequence of the measure which had been proposed by the Government, the cultivation of several estates in our West

253
Indian Colonies had been abandoned, and he (Mr. Barclay) had heard to-day that the cultivation of other estates would be given up, He considered that this subject deserved the serious consideration of Her Majesty's Ministers, more especially as the colonists had no representatives in that House. The hon. Member then said he had a proposition to submit to the Committee, for regulating the duties in a manner different from that proposed by the Government, and was proceeding to read his Amendment, when
The CHAIRMANsignified to him that it must be moved upon the second Resolution.
On the Question, that White Clayed Sugar, or Sugars rendered by any process equal in quality to White Clayed, not being refined, pay a duty of 16 s. 4d. for every cwt.,
MR. MOFFATTmoved as an Amendment the repeal of the differential duties on white clayed sugar and muscovado or other sugar not being equal to white clayed. He observed that there was a great difficulty in obtaining any accurate test to distinguish these sugars, and the discriminating duty was otherwise objectionable, as it converted the Custom-house officers into a sort of tribunal for taxing imported goods. Last year the right hon. Baronet anticipated that there would be a revenue of 230,000 l. from this discriminating duty; whereas the actual result proved the revenue so raised to be no more than 3,580 l. Now, the sugar importers would rather pay that sum to the exchequer out of their own pockets than be subject to the annoyance and inconvenience resulting from the operation of this discriminating duty. It was inefficient for any useful purpose, but active for evil, as it checked improvement in the manufacture of sugar, as the manufacturers endeavoured to keep it just a shade below the point which would subject it to the discriminating duty.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERagreed in some of the observations of the hon. Member, though he differed from him in respect to the conclusion to which the hon. Member had come; for he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not think it expedient to do away with this discriminating duty. When the right hon. Gentleman opposite introduced this distinction, he did not put it very much on the ground of revenue, but rather on the circumstance that a great quantity of
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sugar underwent some process of manufacture, which rendered it more valuable than the ordinary sugar; and that therefore it was not unfair that it should pay a higher rate of duty. He had been looking at the prices current for July, and he found that the descriptions of sugar which according to the proposition of the hon. Member would come in at the same rate of duty, had varied most extraordinarily in price, and it was hardly fair that they should come in at the same duty. The right hon. Gentleman read the following statement:
"Prices of sugar:—Mauritius, very brown, July 4, 1l. 16 s. to 1l. 17 s.; July 22, 1l. 17 s. to 1l. 19 s. West India, brown, July 4, 2l. 2s. to 2l. 4s.; July 22, 2l. 6s. to 2l. 8s. Dhobar, July 4, 1l. 19 s. to 3l. 5s.; July 22, 2l. 7s. to 3l. Cossipore, July 22, 2l. 14 s. to 3l. 4s."
Consequently, if the hon. Member's proposition were carried, there would be the same duty on sugar which was sold for 1l. 17 s. and that which was sold for 3l. 4s. This was the ground on which this discriminating duty was imposed. It was perfectly true that the right hon. Gentleman did calculate that a considerable amount of duty would arise from the discrimination, and that that expectation had been entirely disappointed. He must therefore admit that, as a financial measure, this discriminating duty had failed. It was also true, that it had caused a certain annoyance and inconvenience to the trade, which he should be happy to do his best to remove. He had received a deputation of gentlemen interested in the repeal of this discriminating duty; which they thought ought to be converted into a rated duty on all sugars unrefined. He admitted that there might be difficulty in many ways in carrying into effect this duty, approaching to an ad valorem duty; but if grounds existed for its original imposition, there seemed to be more for its present continuance now that it was proposed to admit all foreign sugar; because various descriptions of sugar, of superior quality, might come in; and the House was not in a position to judge what effect that might have on the West Indian Colonies. On this point he would read extracts from two letters to the House:—
"I think the matter will be much changed by the introduction of Cuba and Brazil sugar. You would then have two classes only—the highest would be refined, and what was rendered by any process equal to refined and everything else would be admitted at 21 s. duty. For the first class, fine white Havannah would, I suppose be your standard, to which none but the very finest Brazil sugar would come up, and perhaps a little of the

255
finest white Java; but a great deal would be entered both from Cuba and Brazil at the 21 s. duty, which in quality would be equal or superior to the Dutch Java, No. 15 standard, although below Havannah white; and thus I think an additional and indirect and unintended injury would be inflicted on our own West India producers."
Extract from letter, dated July 22, 1846:—
"The only thing that has excited any alarm is the uncertainty about the duty on refined and clayed sugar. If these fine sugars were to be admitted at any lower duty than the scale submitted to Parliament, I assure you, as a practical man, that the duties on these sugars would be lower, quality and value considered, than the duty on colonial sugar. It is quite a mistake to say, that any difficulty can arise as to the different qualities."
He must, however, admit that Lord Spencer had imposed duties of a similar character on, tea, which he found himself afterwards obliged to abandon, introducing then a rated duty. Yet now considerable complaints were made that there was the same duty on lower sorts of teas as on some that were higher; and similar discontent would probably follow the adoption of the hon. Member's proposition. He had referred to the Custom-house officers to ascertain what inconvenience and uncertainty they had experienced, and he would on this point read a short extract from a letter written by the Chairman of the Board of Customs, dated July 30, 1846:—
"You will observe, that although on the first introduction of the discriminating duty on sugar, some inconvenience and delay were experienced, the officers report that the law has been and may be henceforward carried into operation with fairness and justice; that the decisions of the officers have been, with few exceptions, consistent with each other, and on the whole satisfactory to the trade and the public. The qualities of sugar imported into this country vary from the lowest—hardly better than molasses—to quality equal to refined sugar. The sugars from Havannah, which will now for the first time come into competition with our colonial sugars, are of a very superior quality. Some of these will undoubtedly be assessed as refined sugar; but other parcels, not quite coming up to the standard of refined, would pay the lowest duty (if the intermediate rate be abolished) and would in that case be very unequally taxed, as compared with the average samples of muscovado sugar. It is not my province as a revenue officer to decide on the policy and expediency of retaining this class of duties. It is perhaps sufficient for me to repeat, that if it be the pleasure of Parliament to continue the existing classification, the officers of the Customs feel confident that they will be able to assess the duties on sugar without difficulty or inconvenience."
That was the opinion of a gentleman well known to hon. Members of that House,
256
the present Chairman of the Board of Customs. The Surveyor General of Customs reported, under date July 23, 1846:—
"We beg to express our belief that the law has been, and may be, carried out by the officers of Customs with fairness and justice. But there have been instances in which the parties immediately interested have been dissatisfied with the officers' decisions, although those decisions have met with the concurring opinions of the trade, with whom the officers have conferred"
With respect to the principal outports, the cases there had been so trifling, and had been decided so satisfactorily, that there could not be ground for that general dissatisfaction intimated by the hon. Member. [The right hon. Gentleman read various reports from the Custom-house officers of Dublin, Bristol, Greenock, and Liverpool.] He did not mean, he continued, to maintain that the discriminating duty had not been attended with some difficulty and objection; but the whole of the papers which he had read showed that there was not much reason to complain. Let the line be drawn where it might, there must be some cases approaching very near it, occasioning difficulty and doubt; and when samples were sent out to the sugar countries abroad, with directions to the manufacturers to work their sugar as near to the sample as possible, so that it might escape the discriminating duty, and if in the process of working they made a slight mistake and overshot the mark, subjecting the sugar to the duty of 16 s. 4d., no doubt in such a case some little dissatisfaction would arise. He had no reason to believe that the decision which had been come to would be unsatisfactory to the trade in general. Considering that the West Indians were the parties on whom the present measure with respect to the Sugar Duties pressed most severely, he should certainly be unwilling, under present circumstances, and without stronger grounds, to inflict what they might regard as an additional grievance and blow on them. This arrangement of the discriminating duty could not altogether be considered as much more than experimental; it had been in operation but for one year, and could hardly he said to have been fairly tried. What additional difficulty might be created in connexion with it by the introduction of all kinds of foreign sugar, it was not for him to say; but he was not prepared to give up the discriminating duty at the present moment, though at the same time he could not pledge himself to it as a permanent measure. The West Indian body might

257
before long not be in favour of keeping up this distinction. To a certain extent it discouraged improved processes of manufacturing their sugar; and from a return he had read, it appeared it was in three or four instances on West Indian sugar that the higher rate of duty had been charged; and, therefore, some of the West Indian body might be in favour of doing away with the discrimination. He had received suggestions from various gentlemen, and should do all in his power to render the standard certain.
MR. P. M. STEWARTthought the present measure was to be final. If the question now before the House was to be revived hereafter, the West Indians might some day be robbed of the benefit they were to receive for the sacrifice by which they supposed they were now purchasing peace.
Amendment withdrawn.
On the Question, that on Brown Sugar, being Muscovado or Clayed, or any other Sugar not been equal in quality to White Clayed, there be paid for every cwt. a duty of 14 s.,
MR. JAMESrose to move, that colonial sugar be admitted for the next three years at a duty not exceeding 10 s. the cwt. If there was to be only the small differential duty proposed between colonial and slave-grown sugar, our West Indian cultivation would in a very short time be entirely discontinued; no one would carry on any concern for a length of time without a reasonable prospect of some profit. The Government calculations as to revenue were based upon the expectation that our importations from our Colonies were to continue what they were, or nearly so; but he felt convinced that in a very few years we should be supplied almost entirely from slave countries, and the price of sugar would be much greater than at present. Our colonial proprietors would be ruined, and slavery and the Slave Trade increased and perpetuated. Without troubling the House with a long speech about nothing, he would propose his Amendment, with a view to afford our colonists a chance of being able to continue the cultivation of their properties, not merely for their own benefit, but also for that of the people at large. Why should there be a tax on colonial produce, any more than on importations from Ireland, or on the productions of Wales? But if there must be, one penny a pound would be better than three halfpence. He was actuated by anything but feelings of
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hostility to the Government, and particularly to the noble Lord who was its head and ornament; he (Mr. James) supported the same party once, when Lord Melbourne was at their head, on a very important occasion; he could not tell whether they recollected it, but he himself did. It would be useless to divide the House now that they were supported not only by their friends, but by their opponents; he must content himself with urging the Government to consider the justice of his proposal.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUERregretted that he could not be swayed altogether by a feeling of gratitude to the hon. Gentleman. The Amendment would involve a very large sacrifice of revenue; no quantity of sugar could be brought at a 10 s. duty to supply an adequate revenue. If the Government could have consented to reduce the 14 s. duty, no one would be more glad than he; but it could not be done now, and he was afraid that for the next five years they would have no chance of doing it.
Amendment withdrawn.
On the Question, that on Candy, brown, or white, Double Refined Sugar, or Sugar equal in quality to Double Refined, there be paid, from and after the passing of this Act to July 5, 1847, inclusive, 1l. 11 s. 6d. for every cwt.; and from and after July 5, 1847, to July 5, 1848, inclusive, 1l. 10 s.,
MR. BARCLAYmoved to substitute 1"l. 11 s. 6d." for "1l. 10 s."
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERadmitted that it might be difficult to give reasons for the precise scale adopted; but upon the whole he thought the Government scale of reductions year after year the best calculated to promote the interests of the West India proprietors themselves and of the consumer, as well as best for the revenue. With regard to the introduction of molasses into distilleries, all he would now say was, that he would give the subject the fullest consideration; but on this point the West India interest had sent him no details; the colonists were entitled to, and would certainly receive from the Government, every aid which could be given them in the disposal of their produce.
MR. BARKLY: Mr. Greene, I did not intend to trouble the House again on the subject of these duties, when I explained my reasons for voting the other night for going into this Committee, and I shall do so briefly now. I did hope Her Majesty's

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Government would have taken the advice of men of all parties, both in and out of the House, and improved their scale by abolishing the last year's protection, and condensing the amount of protection left on the former years. With all its pretence of protection, with the sixty different rates of duty it imposes on saccharine matter in its various stages—which it will take the time of a clerk in every merchant's office to investigate—this measure will not have the effect of encouraging the West India planter to persevere at this hour of trial. The amount of protection it provides (which, of course, in any event, will enhance the price of all foreign sugar admitted), is so distributed as to be of the least possible use to him. It is high in the first two years, when, from the shortness of his own crops and the impossibility of diverting more than a limited quantity of the existing supply of foreign sugar to this country, he least needs it: it drops to a merely nominal amount the third year, when the increased produce resulting from the labour he has procured, and the capital he has expended, comes to market, and when the slave-owner is prepared to pour in a large supply of foreign sugar. What the West India planter requires is a valid protection during the time he is procuring labour, and rendering it available. The rag of protection left on the last two years in these Resolutions, is universally held by men of business to be a mockery to the producer, and a robbery of the consumer. Long before five years the question must be decided as to whether an estate in the West Indies can be restored to its former state of remunerative cultivation, or whether its proprietor shall cease to struggle with insuperable difficulties. The West India steamer that departs to-morrow will bear the announcement of ruin to many unfortunate individuals, who, at the moment at which the House are discussing this question, are not even aware that they have to contend with any other competition in the case of the sugar they are now manufacturing, than that of the free-labour produce which the late Government proposed to admit. I should certainly have supported the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for Sunderland, if he had deemed it expedient to go to a division, because that, trifling as is the improvement it would have effected, I did hope it might have had the effect of inducing merchants to continue, at least for a short time, to support their mortgages, because I believe it would
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have conciliated the feelings of the colonial producer, and encouraged him to persevere, and because by these means it would have secured a cheaper supply of sugar to the people of this country, whilst it attained for them the abolition of all restrictions, and free trade in sugar one year earlier than by the measure proposed by Government. I cannot see why these advantages should be sacrificed to the maintenance of what I must be excused for calling a show of consistency on the part of Her Majesty's Ministers, in upholding a hasty and ill-considered measure. I fear the manner in which the moderation of a great interest has been met on this occasion by the noble Lord at the head of the Administration, will tend greatly to confirm the impression that the Government of this country is alone open to the influence of agitation and clamour.
SIR J. R. REIDobserved, that the West India packet which was to sail next day would carry out to the colonists there intelligence of the most melancholy kind that the West Indies had perhaps ever received. He did not hesitate to say that the course taken by Her Majesty's Government was full of the grossest injustice to those Colonies; but while he said this, he was compelled also to say, that the kindness of manner and the urbanity shown by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer commanded universal respect. Great injustice had, nevertheless, been inflicted on the West Indies, and he could tell the House that it had been decided that very day by merchants connected with these Colonies to abandon their estates, and not send out their usual supplies. He should not be doing his duty to those whom he represented, if he did not state this fact unequivocally and distinctly to the House. He would appeal to the justice, honour, and kind feeling of the House, whether a great interest like this ought to be sacrificed. He objected to the conclusion at which the House had arrived; he objected to the mode in which the question had been discussed, and also to the hurried manner in which in which it had been disposed of; and, he objected generally to the unjust, and cruel, and oppressive manner in which all connected with that great interest had been treated. He hoped the House would make some allowance for his expressing himself warmly, but his sentiments were most sincere; they were founded in truth, and every word that he had uttered came from his heart.
MR. P. M. STEWARTthought the gloom which hung over the West Indies had been rather exaggerated by the hon. Gentlemen who opposed the Government measure. He should have been exceedingly glad if the Government had acceded to the Amendment, as it would have been valuable as an expression of kind feeling towards the Colonies, while in a financial point of view that Amendment was, in his opinion, preferable to the proposal of the Government. It would have been better for the revenue; to the consumer it would have commended itself as proposing to limit the term to four instead of five years; and to the colonist it would have the recommendation that it would enable him to put himself right in three years, so as to be ready to come into competition with foreigners. On these grounds he was sorry that the Amendment had not been conceded. In regard to the gloom, however, he hoped the tone which their Friends opposite had thrown into the debate, would not be sent across the Atlantic to the Colonies. They were not gone yet, but would still be ready to compete, if the Government would realize to them the hopes which had been held out with reference to other measures—he meant an unrestricted supply of labour from any British possession under the sun, and also with regard to the disposal of their produce. He would, therefore, say to his friends in the Colonies, that hard and severe as this measure was, great as was the competition to which it exposed them, yet, with all these disadvantages, if the Government would act up to its promises with regard to the supply of labour and the disposal of their produce, they would be able to go on successfully yet.
MR. BORTHWICKhad no doubt that the measure was in itself most beneficial, looking at the Colonies as Colonics; but he would state a case to the House which would show that the fears of many individuals were far from groundless. The case he referred to was that of an estate in the island of Demerara. The property for half a century yielded to the proprietor 20,000 l. a year. The proprietor—a lady—like most West Indian proprietors, resided in this country. She lived up to the amount of her income; the estate during the period mentioned regularly yielding a spendable income of 20,000 l. a year, but at this moment the estate was making a debt of 10,000 l. annually; in fact, there was a mortgage upon it of 10,000 l., and the merchants in the city, who had the
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management of the property, now said they could not sell the property in the market for as much money as would pay off the mortgage of 10,000 l. The state to which the lady was reduced was such that she had applied to some friends of his (Mr. Borthwick's) to try whether he could not obtain situations for her two daughters as governesses. The mortgage would probably, in consequence of this measure, be foreclosed, and the lady would be deprived of any income at all, and would be reduced to utter ruin. Now this lady was the representative of a large class, and he felt confident he should not be working upon the sympathies of Members of that House in vain, in asking the Government to afford such protection to proprietors as would enable estates similar to the one he had mentioned to be protected.
MR. GOULBURNsaid, it was impossible for those who were connected with the West Indian Colonies, or who had known what had gone on in them, not to be able to produce many melancholy instances in which those who had been in affluence and comfort had been reduced to straitened circumstances, to dependence, and distress, which extended not only to individuals who were able to find some other means for providing for themselves, but which involved many women and children, who had no means of obtaining their subsistence; still he was not prepared, if the question had gone to a division, to vote for the Amendment of his hon. Friend. Not but that he would have been glad if the Government had come forward to adopt that or some analogous proposition, more with a view of showing some interest for a deeply suffering body, than with any expectation of a beneficial result. He would, however, insist upon other points, which combining with the acknowledged principles now adopted, could be carried, and he urged the friends of the colonists to use their energies in pressing upon the Government those other measures of compensation which could be given without the departure from any principle, and for which, in strict conformity with what was right, the West Indians had the strongest claims upon any Government, when they were to be deprived of that protective duty which appeared to the Legislature to have been imposed upon their fellow subjects only to aggravate the price of a commodity of great necessity. Supposing, therefore, the propositions in behalf of the Government would be acted upon in sincerity, he

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felt it would be best for the West Indians to make the Government responsible, and to claim from those who took away their advantage, to give them others which would enable them to enter into fair competition. He should certainly recommend those whom he advised, not to press the Government on the subject of sugar; but to press till they had gained a perfect equality of duty in other commodities, and such assistance in the way of labour as could be given without violating any principle that had been laid down with respect to the Slave Trade. As a compensation for the tardiness of that assistance, every energy must now be used. He was one of the body whose interests were deeply affected, and he should follow the advice of the hon. Member for Renfrewshire (Mr. P. Stewart), and advise others, not, in the first feelings of distress, to abandon those exertions by which alone they could be rescued from impending ruin; and he trusted that this body, looking at the assurance which had been given by the Government that advantages would be afforded, and knowing that there were those in Parliament who would press the Government to answer their just claims, would find that their properties could be made productive, and so provide the great security against the foreign Slave Trade by bringing the produce of the West Indies into competition with slave-grown sugar.
DR. BOWRINGconsidered the calm and conciliatory spirit in which the West Indian interest had received the Government propositions, entitled them to have their case and their claims calmly and deliberately considered by that House. For himself he was of opinion the present measure was entangled by too many complications; but he had no doubt Government would consider the details, and would be willing to inquire if there were not facilities and advantages that could be fairly conceded to the West Indian Colonies. He wished the rum question were finally settled. Difficulties put forward by the Excise or Customs ought not to be allowed to interfere with the settlement of a great question. Such minor impediments ought not to be permitted to offer an obstruction to beneficial legislation. The present step was an important step in the right direction, and he could not but feel if Government continued in the same course, they would find a disposition on all sides to lend them a common support.
MR. BERNALknew that letters would
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be written to-morrow to all the large Colonies, and he was glad therefore that the right hon. Gentleman had repeated his promise and declared that he was ready to carry out a system of justice to all classes; but there was something dropped from the right hon. Gentleman, though he spoke in so low a tone of voice that he could hardly hear him, about not knowing exactly what the West Indians wished.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the West Indians had stated that as all protection was withdrawn from them, there ought to be no protection against them; and he had asked them, instead of laying down a general principle in which all were agreed, to give him the details of what restrictions they complained of, and what obstacles they met with. Take rum for instance, protection and free trade had nothing to do with the principle of that duty. It was imposed as a fiscal regulation, that the burden on British spirit and on colonial should be such as to allow them to come into consumption on precisely equal terms. Upon that principle the differential duty of 1s. 6d. had been imposed, and it was believed under the existing circumstances that, with this fiscal burden, the colonial and British spirit would come into English consumption on equal terms. When the question was last before the Government, therefore, they decided that 1 s. 6d. was the requisite fiscal burden for that purpose; but when he had himself considered the subject, from the information he had received, he believed that the duty should be 1s. instead of 1s. 6d., that being, as he thought, about the sum which would provide the equality. He had since been told by the West Indian deputation that the 1s. 6d. was too high, and the distillers had remonstrated against him as going too far. He was not disposed to quarrel with these complaints; and he had told both parties that he admitted the principle of perfect equality, and that he would hear all the statements of the West Indians against the 1s. being too much, and of the distillers against its being too high; and, if the West Indians could make out that there was more than an equality in his proposed duty, he would reduce the duty to such amount as would cause an equality. The West Indians must admit that there were some charges, such as the malt duty, which the British distiller had to pay, and they had not. He and the West Indians were agreed as to the principle; and he was ready to go into

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the details with them; all he asked was, that instead of their demanding of him to deal with them on the principle of free trade, to show him where the one shilling was too much. When he received that statement, justice should be done to all parties. So with regard to other articles, there was no question of protection; the duty was not imposed for the purpose of protection, but for other purposes. This was the case with molasses and sugar, about which his hon. Friend had stated he did not know the law. If instead of stating their wish that all protection should be done away with, he received some statement in detail—for it was not a question of protection but revenue—he would then deal fairly between all interests; but till he received those statements, he could only give the general assurance of the sincerity of his intentions.
MR. BERNALdid not doubt the right hon. Gentleman's sincerity or integrity; but as to-morrow's packet would go to the Colonies, it was essential that every thing should go with it that would allay irritation. When the hon. Gentleman said, that these duties were not imposed for the purposes of protection, he must add that they operated as a protection. When they found the duty on rum in Scotland to be 9s. 4d., and on spirits to be 3s. 8d., what did it signify for what reason the duty was imposed, since it operated as a protection? Did his right hon. Friend know that there was in Scotland a spirit called the "silent spirit," composed, he believed, of alcohol, which was made to appear of the colour, and something like the flavour of rum, which was vended to the injury of the seller of rum? If the duty of 1s. were proper, why was it not payable in Scotland? He knew that the distillers here would urge the expenses of their plant, and would contend that the 1s. was only a fair amount of the differential duty; but if this were so, could any one tell why the same differential duty did not prevail in Scotland and Ireland? Why was there not an uniform duty? There was a distinction with respect to spirits coming from Jersey, and so there would be no difficulty in collecting a different amount in Scotland or Ireland. He did not mean to cast any reflection on the integrity of the Excise, or on any other Board. They thought, no doubt, they only did what was right, and could have no bias for any interest; but the question was, what should be the amount of duty on rum, and what the duties on sugar and molasses admitted
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into breweries? He believed that in distilleries sugar could be introduced, if corn were not on the premises; but it would not be admitted into breweries. [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Every one can brew his own sugar.] And so they might their cocculus indicus. With respect to labour, he believed that three years had been the time for which labourers had been engaged in Madeira.
MR. HUMEwas sorry to hear such an account from the West Indies as had been given by the hon. Member. He was very anxious that Gentlemen should, on this occasion, repeat their determination to carry out the principle of free trade in every respect, and to allow no interference to prevent them. No one could have believed that matters would have been settled so amicably as they had been; and he was very glad to see that it had been so. The amount of the present protection was 22 s., while all the colonists would have been satisfied with 24 s. Now it did appear extraordinary, when the difference between them was so little—when the Colonies could have been so easily satisfied, the revenue improved, and no injury done to the consumer—that the Government had not felt themselves at liberty to have arranged the matter in such a way as would have put all the parties in a good humour, and have satisfied every one. He did not regard protection as being at all necessary to the Colonies, provided they had free labour in abundance; and it was with the view of giving them that necessary, that he expressed his hope that Her Majesty's Ministers would repeat their determination, in all good faith, to give their Colonies every assistance for its importation. He must, however, declare his opinion, that unless there were a change in the management of the Colonies—unless there were some end of this perpetual meddling—this constant interfering — this stopping one day, and urging another—the order of January being scarce received till it was countermanded by that of February—it was utterly impossible that any interest could thrive. If they looked to the state of every Colony under the Crown, they would see that ruin must follow, unless they were left to manage their own affairs. They had no Colony at present which was not a burden to the country. From every quarter the House had received petitions complaining of the evil consequences of the present system, which had destroyed the unanimity of action that ought to prevail

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between them and the mother country. He hoped that the Colonies would receive the present measures of Government in good faith, and he should like to see good feeling established between this country and every one of them.
LORD J. RUSSELL: I have heard with very great pleasure the statement made during this discussion by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge. I have no hesitation in saying that he addressed himself to this question in the fairest possible manner; and I quite concur with the right hon. Gentleman in many of the observations which he made. I think, so far as they go, that they will be useful to the interests of the consumer. But apart from the observations made by the right hon. Gentleman, the attention of the House has been drawn to the scale proposed by the hon. Member for Sunderland; and I acknowledge that that scale does not appear to differ very widely from the scale proposed by Her Majesty's Government. But the subject is one of great importance; and I believe the House will agree with me in thinking that the scale proposed by the Government is likely to prove upon the whole more advantageous than any other that has yet been submitted to the House. I conceive that it will be better for the consumer in this point of view, because, during the first three years, there will not be sudden drops of 3s. 6d., and besides it will be better for the revenue; the sudden drops would have the effect of stopping consumption in many cases, and would, in my opinion, occasion much embarrassment. Looking, then, deliberately at the one plan and the other, I confess I do not see any sufficient reason for giving a preference to the proposition of the hon. Member for Sunderland over that of Her Majesty's Government. It is perfectly true, that some Gentlemen connected with the West Indian body said that they would prefer the scale proposed by the hon. Member for Sunderland; but I hope it will be remembered that on the first night we proposed our scale, we said it was only proposed for four years. It was said that 23 s. 4d. ought to be maintained, and that six not four years ought to have been the time allowed. As to all the other measures of the Government which affected this question, the right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that they were fair and just towards the West Indians, and that they were calculated to enable
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the West Indians to compete with all others engaged in a similar trade. It is satisfactory to the Government to find that our measures are admitted to be fair and just. We are anxious they should be so in the minutest details; but I am sure the House will be ready to admit that we require time for the accomplishment of that object. I am at the same time ready to repeat my assurance that our propositions have not been brought forward for the sake of protection, but with the sincere wish of adjusting all the difficulties, and of effecting a settlement by which we might finally abide. With respect to the duty of 1s. 6d. payable on rum, I have thought it desirable to call the attention of the Chairman of the Board of Excise to that subject. I need scarcely say that I place great reliance upon his intelligence and judgment; and I am sure it will not be forgotten that he can have no prejudice, either in favour of the West India interest or against it. He agrees with us in thinking that 1s. 6d. will be no more than a fair compensation for loss, after the duty has been taken, and after due allowance has been made for other circumstances. All these matters we were bound to look into, and to give each the weight to which it was fairly entitled. We have considered all these circumstances, and so likewise has the Chairman of the Board of Excise, and we have arrived at the conclusion which has already been made known to the House. So much with respect to the question, as it affects distillers. With respect to the admission of sugar into breweries, we were anxious upon that point to come to the fairest possible decision, and I think the result will show that we have, in this case, taken the best course. We could not overlook the fact that in the West Indies a great social change had taken place by the abolition of slavery; that the benefits of protection had been extended to them for several years; we were therefore bound most carefully to look into all the attendant circumstances. I confess upon this point I was sorry to hear two hon. Members opposite speak in such a desponding tone as they did respecting the prospects of the West Indies. I must say that I do not come to the same conclusion as that at which they arrived. Though still considering and bearing in mind what I said upon a former occasion, I must repeat that I do not take such a gloomy view of the prospects of the West India interest as has been taken by those hon. Gentlemen. I

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do believe that those Colonies possess the means of competing with all who are engaged in a similar trade: and I do believe that they will very soon show that they possess the means. I do not overlook the fact that additional labour has been freshly introduced into our West Indian Colonies. I happened to have been in the Colonial Office when restrictions were placed upon the introduction of additional labour from the coast of Africa. I altered those restrictions, first upon the representations of the several anti-slavery societies, and secondly upon representations which reached me from Foreign Powers—Spain, for instance, which charged us with attempting to revive the Slave Trade. Great precautions, however, were necessary; but I did not believe that the restrictions would be ultimately necessary, and I was of opinion that in a few years they might be relaxed. I stated that opinion in a despatch which I addressed to the Governor of Sierra Leone; and I believe I said that the introduction of free labourers from the coast of Africa would be attended with beneficial effects not only to the West Indies, but to the inhabitants of Africa themselves. For those labourers, when they returned to Africa, would probably bring back with them habits of life calculated to promote civilization in the barbarous parts of Africa. Those were my opinions, and I am glad to find that that permission which I gave for the introduction of free workmen, continues to further the results of labour; and the direct benefits accruing from that labour were not the only things that I looked to. It has been extensively useful to the West Indians. But I am by no means insensible to the apprehension that that system of immigration may be carried too far; and there is at present in this country a noble Lord who was for some years a governor of Jamaica, who agrees with me in thinking that it will only be useful, carried to a certain extent. In such a case as this, great attention should be paid to the expense of labour, and to the means of enabling the people of the West Indies to conduct their agricultural operations in the most economical manner. At the same time I am far from wishing to oppose my opinion to the laws which colonial assemblies may enact; they may think themselves right, and that we are wrong; we may think them wrong, and ourselves right. I do not now wish to say which is wrong; but this we do know, that obstacles have been raised to the introduction
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of free labour; but I hope the matter will not be looked at despondingly, and that obstacles will not present themselves to our future course. I recollect when the right hon. Baronet who was at the head of the late Government, introduced his Corn Bill, that measure was regarded despondingly, and the most gloomy anticipations were indulged; yet they, I hope, will soon be falsified; and I trust that a similar degree of success awaits this measure also, and that soon not one of our Colonies will be a burden to us. [Mr. HUME: Can you tell me any one Colony that is not so?] I am not prepared to say, that every inhabitant of every Colony is perfectly satisfied; but I believe that the general feeling throughout our Colonies is not one of dissatisfaction; and I do believe that my noble Friend now at the head of the Colonial Department will pay every possible attention to the affairs of that department; and I am happy to be able to state that he agrees with me in the justice and expediency of extending free institutions as far as they possibly can be extended to all Colonies under the Crown of Great Britain. He agrees with me in thinking that wherever Englishmen are assembled in great numbers, they are not so well governed by a Secretary of State as by institutions which enable them in some degree to exercise self-government. I say this generally, without meaning to assert that it is true in all cases; but I believe it will be found to be true in a great number, and that we are fully justified in taking general measures for enabling all Colonies to be governed by free institutions.
MR. P. HOWARDthought there was one point which the Government might fairly concede to the colonists—a point which had been alluded to by the hon. Member for Weymouth. It was proposed to limit the contracts with the labourers to one year. He considered that period too short, both for the employer and the labourer, and was of opinion that the period of contract labour ought to extend to four or five years. Such a change would not only be beneficial to the Hill Coolies, but to the imported Africans. He hoped the Government would take into consideration the suggestions he had offered, and that the boon sought for would be conceded to the West Indians.
Amendment withdrawn.
Resolutions agreed to.
House resumed. Report to be brought up.

NAVAL COURTS MARTIAL.
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply,
MR. W. WILLIAMSwished to call the attention of the House to the manner in which courts martial were constituted and conducted in the British navy. Under the present system, by the Act of George II., it was necessary that a naval court martial should consist of five officers at the least, three of whom must be post-captains. But it was extremely difficult to find that number when a ship was on a foreign station. A case had been stated to him, in which a young officer, of high connexions, had been put under arrest, and because three post-captains could not be found, a ship was sent from this country with a post-captain, in order to hold the court martial. At the same time, it was impossible to prove those facts. [Sir G. COCKBURN: Because they are not true.] In common justice to that young officer, they were bound to do what they did; but he ought not to be kept a single day without having the opportunity of defending himself from the charge against him. The system was upon an erroneous principle, and was liable, necessarily, to place officers in situations of the greatest anxiety. In the army field-officers constituted the court martial; but if there was a deficiency a captain was eligible to supply it, and it should be the same with lieutenants in the navy. Another defect was, that under the Act of George II., the sole and entire power was given to them—there was no appeal to the Crown or the Admiralty—there was no power by law to disallow the sentence of the court martial. The Sovereign might replace an officer, but that was a different matter. Every principle of justice was violated by the present system. The hon. Gentleman, in illustration, referred to the case of Lieutenant Walker of the Alban, who fourteen years ago had been brought to a court martial by Captain Pigott of the Barham. It was true that Captain Pigott was the superior officer; but being the officer of another vessel, the court martial was contrary to one of the orders of the Admiralty, and yet there was no appeal.
COLONEL FOXwished to ask the hon. Member whether he had given notice of his intention to bring this case forward; for without such notice it was hardly fair to the present Board of Admiralty, who had not been in office a month to refer to a case that had occurred fourteen years ago.
MR. WILLIAMSwas convinced that he had a correct account of the facts, and he formed his conclusion from those facts; but if they were disputed he was ready to prove them. He brought no charge against anybody, not even against the officers of the courts martial, except that they committed errors. The hon. Member mentioned another case, of Lieutenant Brydges, who on the coast of Africa, had some words with a vice-consul, and offered to meet him on shore. He was tried by a court martial. Leading questions were put to the witnesses, and the result was, that he was sentenced to be dismissed from his ship, contrary, as he (Mr. Williams) contended, to the spirit and letter of the law. All the check he wanted was, that the navy should be placed in the same position as the army.
MR. WARDsaid, his hon. Friend had mooted at the outset of his speech a general question of importance, but had attempted to ride off upon two cases, one of thirteen years' date, and the other six years ago. He was not prepared to meet him upon these two cases. As to the lieutenants sitting on courts martial, that was a grave question for consideration; but it ought not to turn upon a particular case of a foolish squabble. With regard to the power of revising courts martial, what was to be done where they were held on distant stations? It would be impracticable; there must be a summary jurisdiction in such cases. As to referring courts martial sitting at the extremity of the world to the Admiralty at home, it was out of the question. The whole subject, would, however, receive the earliest consideration of the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty.
SIR G. COCKBURNsaid, the hon. Member (Mr. Williams) had made out the smallest case he had ever heard. He had said that even if courts martial were illegal, there was no redress to be had; whereas, if a court martial was illegal in its constitution, whatever its award, it went for nothing. A court martial was a court of honour as well as a court of law, and although the members were not lawyers, he thought that, generally speaking, their judgments were as good as those of other courts. The court martial upon Lieutenant Bridges was assembled legally; and as to legal questions being put at that court, the object of a court martial was to get at the truth. It turned out that the vice-consul was not "in the fleet," though on board the ship, and the man was restored.

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With respect to the proposal for placing lieutenants on courts martial, if the hon. Member's object was to give facilities for more courts martial in the fleet than they had already, he would do a great mischief. It was an advantage to the navy that courts martial should be rare. He believed it to be absolutely necessary for the discipline of the service, that the power of flogging should be retained in the hands of the captain, but at the same time he believed that the less flogging there was the better, and the ship in which there was the most flogging was the worst managed. Flogging was occasionally necessary to bring a fresh crew into a state of discipline; but that attained, very little or no corporal punishment was necessary. He warned the House how they trifled with the discipline of the navy, and with the articles of war, by means of which that discipline had been for so many years preserved in a high state of efficiency.
CAPTAIN PECHELLsaid, the Admiralty had done right in appointing to a ship the gallant lieutenant who had been just named, but they had not so until the case had been brought before the House of Commons. There had been another instance of a court martial held at Bermuda, upon the commander of the Alarm, in which the Admiralty had in a similar manner reversed, or rather cast a slur upon, the proceedings of the court martials by appointing that officer to another ship. The revision of the articles of war was a delicate subject to introduce into that House; but the articles of war did nevertheless require revision, and he was glad that the present Ministers were likely to grapple with the subject.
SIR C. NAPIERsaid, it was always understood that naval court martials were superior to similar tribunals in the army. The proceedings of the latter were open to revision by the Commander-in-Chief, which would not be tolerated for an instant in the navy, where the members comprising it would look upon such interference as an imputation upon the manner in which they had discharged the duties they were sworn to perform.
House in Committee of Supply.
Several Votes were passed. House resumed and adjourned.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. Poor Removal; Newfoundland; Art Unions; Ecclesiastical Patronage.
2a. Tithe Amendment Act.
3a. and passed. Sugar Duties (No. 2); New Zealand Loan; Gauge of Railways.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Her Majesty's Justices of the Peace for the County of Middlesex, in Quarter Sessions assembled, for the Adoption of Measures for the Better Training of Deserted Children, and for the more Effectual Prevention of Juvenile Depravity and Crime.

THE ASIATIC CHOLERA.
EARL FITZHARDINGEwished to ask a question, the answer to which would, he considered, be of some importance. He had seen in The Times newspaper of that morning an announcement, coming from the Lord Mayor of London, that the cholera had broken out in the metropolis. His Lordship had not used the exact word, but there could be no doubt he referred to the Asiatic cholera; and he begged to know if the noble Marquess had received any official or precise intimation on the subject?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE: My noble Friend has put this question to me in consequence of a statement in the newspapers of this day, and in consequence of

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that statement having emanated from so high an authority as that of the Lord Mayor of the city of London. At the same time my noble Friend has stated that the Lord Mayor, in making this communication, thought it necessary to make use of the expression "cholera" only, not mentioning what is called "Asiatic cholera," which is that particular species of cholera which caused such alarm throughout continental Europe some years ago, and also a considerable degree of alarm in this country. I do not think that the announcement of the Lord Mayor is calculated to create the idea that Asiatic cholera now exists; and the question having been put to me, I am glad, most glad, of the opportunity of giving an answer which cannot fail of being satisfactory to the noble Lord and to the House. A few days ago, an opinion seemed very generally to prevail in this city, that Asiatic cholera had broken out in London, and that it had appeared in a variety of cases. Immediately upon an intimation to that effect having been brought to the Council Office, some medical authorities were consulted, and, in a few hours after, a medical gentleman of great capacity and experience, conversant, too, with the practice in the different hospitals of this city, was sent into all the localities in which it had been asserted cholera had broken out. He visited all the houses in those localities, made every inquiry from which he might derive certain information, and on the following day he reported to me that he had not met with a single instance of disease which indicated the presence of Asiatic cholera. Not content with this, he visited also the hospitals in the immediate neighbourhood of those localities, and he did not find in any of those hospitals a case of the disease in question. He certainly did find instances of that disease which, as your Lordships may be aware, does exist in London, and which usually appears in large cities at this season of the year; it has some similarity to the Asiatic cholera; but it possesses none of the aggravated character of that dreadful plague. Your Lordships may rely, I think, upon this statement being correct. I have desired that the gentleman to whom I have referred, and another medical officer connected with the Council Office, should be on the look-out from day to day, in order that we might be early acquainted with the truth; and, up to this day, I am glad to say, no information that Asiatic cholera
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has appeared has been received. I have now further to state, I have had a consultation with a noble Friend of mine in the other House of Parliament, and that it is intended to renew his Motion, authorizing parishes to take certain precautions, such as whitewashing houses and rooms, usual when in the presence of contagious disease, should the unfortunate necessity arise, without having recourse to any specific application to Government or Parliament. I think that Parliament will see the propriety of acceding to a Motion so unexceptionable as this.
LORD BROUGHAM: I was at first rather sorry that my noble Friend (Earl Fitzhardinge) had mentioned the subject; but as it has been stated in the public papers, perhaps no evil can result from the distinct contradiction which we have heard of the rumour. It should, however, be most carefully borne in mind that to do or to say anything to spread alarm is prejudicial, and that it does more harm in extending the disease than any other circumstance. Your Lordships may be aware of a fact which illustrates this, and which presses in the same direction. In the year 1833, sixteen or eighteen months after the time when it was asserted the cholera had ceased to exist, and when I was in office, I was waited on on the 16th of August, the night before I left London, by a medical Friend, who stated to me, that the Asiatic cholera had prevailed during the last fortnight, and that there had been more cases during one of those weeks than in any similar week in the cholera year, sixteen months before. I consulted my noble Friend the then Secretary of State for the Home Department, and we earnestly urged my informant not to publish any notice of it, and soon afterwards it disappeared. The fact was, as the medical authorities assured me, that always at that season, at the beginning of August, a chill takes place, fruit begins to be consumed; and these are the circumstances which together render the English cholera so exceedingly rife. And, as in this year there has been great heat, the English cholera has assumed, as I myself know, in some parts of the town—in the neighbourhood of Bedford Square, in Whetstone Park, which is a very rural sounding name; but the rusticity goes no further; for it is there, behind Bedford Square, where the mews are—an excessively virulent and dangerous character. It is not, however, accompanied by those appearances and that spasmodic agency

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marking the Asiatic or true cholera. In the year I mentioned, my opinion being asked what ought to be done, and whether the information which I had received should be made public, I said, "By no manner of means; but if there be no doubt on your mind about it, take all precautions, but do nothing but be ready if it should spread." In the very next week I heard there were ten cases only, and in the week after the disease had disappeared. That Asiatic cholera had been the disease, I had, at the time, no doubt whatever; but I think there is now no ground for alarm if the people will only be prepared — if they will not expose themselves to cold or chill, and not eat raw vegetables. Another disease, however, at this season of the year, might also engage, and engage beneficially, the attention of Parliament and of the Government—I mean the "Legislative cholera;" the disease and disorder of bringing forward measures of great importance when, in fact, there is no House of Parliament in existence, and when there are none of those Members present to discuss them and debate who desire to discuss them. I confess that I am alarmed, very greatly alarmed, at this disease. Several Bills of a most important character have been put off from week to week, and are now all to be brought forward together—I believe there is a Bill the effect of which will be to create a great many new offices, twenty or thirty places of great importance. I refer to the Bill for the Recovery of Small Debts—and that I should think is a Bill which should lie over until the next Session. I have heard that all my Law Bills in the other House are to be treated in that way, and are not to be passed this year—they are put off to next year. And then there is a temporary measure continuing the present Sugar Duties brought in for a month; and we are now to have to discuss another measure regulating the duties on sugar, and one which ought to be discussed most fully. What is the consequence of that? The temporary measure is for the period from the 5th of August to the 5th of September, and then we shall have the great Sugar Bill or the great Slave Bill, as I shall call it for shortness-sake, brought up here, when no person will be present to discuss it, and when the danger will be run that before a decision is come to, the temporary measure will have expired. I think we have all very great cause to be alarmed at that.
EARL FITZHARDINGEdid not regret having asked the question, for he felt now convinced that the answer which had been given would satify and calm the public.
The MARQUESS of SALISBURYagreed in the observations made by the noble and learned Lord, of the impropriety and impolicy of bringing forward at this late period of the Session, any measure of importance. He hoped that the noble Marquess would consent to suspend in that House the progress of that most important measure referring to the Law of Settlement.
LORD CAMPBELLwas sorry that his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) had not been in the House when the Small Debts Bill had been introduced, and when it was shown that it had been under deliberation, in both Houses, for a number of years, and that it was universally approved of—even by the noble and learned Lord himself. The late President of the Council (the Duke of Buccleuch) had presented it, and had stated that it was the intention to pass it in the present Parliament; since then petitions in its favour had poured in from all parts of the country; and he (Lord Campbell) fully believed that it was a measure which the country would rejoice to see adopted.
LORD BROUGHAMsaid, that if the Bill were urged forward now it should be in that form in which it had been introduced. It had, he knew, undergone several alterations.
The EARL of ST. GERMANShoped that the Bill would not be postponed.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEbegged to say, on the subject of this Bill, that not a day had passed since he had had the honour of being connected with the Government, in which he had not heard or read most urgent representations made to him from parishes and towns in its favour; and he believed that there was throughout the country a most earnest desire that it should pass this Session. He had also received an intimation to that effect from the noble Duke who recently occupied the office which he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) now held.

THE SUSPENDED RAILWAY BILLS.
The EARL of CLARENDONinformed the House that the Special Committee, appointed the previous day, to consider the Resolution of the 7th of May, had met that morning, and had reported that they

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were of opinion, that if the House were disposed to exempt any Bill from the operation of the Resolution, they would recommend the following Bills:—
"The Liverpool, Ormskirk, and Preston Railway Bill; the Glasgow and Belfast Union Railway Bill; the Grand Junction Railway (Showhill and Portobello Branch) Bill; the Taff Vale Railway Bill; the Caledonian Railway (Clydesdale Junction Railway Deviations) Bill; the Caledonian, Pollock, Govan, and Clydesdale Junction Railways Amalgamation Bill; the Manchester and Southampton Railway Bill; the East and West India Docks and Birmingham Junction Railway Bill; and the London and South Western Railway (London Bridge Extension) Bill."
He would therefore move—
"That the said Resolution of the House of the 7th of May last be suspended, so far as regards the Bills mentioned in the said Report."
Agreed to.

CONDITION OF IRELAND.
LORD MONTEAGLErose to bring forward the Motion of which he had given notice, respecting employment of the people of Ireland. He said, that when he had given notice of his Motion at a time when the late Government were in power, he did so without intending to imply any distrust in their good intentions towards Ireland; and if he did so without distrust towards them, he need hardly say that he brought it forward with still loss distrust towards his own Friends who at the present moment formed Her Majesty's Government. But he thought that with respect to Irish matters in general, they were all too liable to be carried away with political questions, so as to lose sight of the physical condition of the people. The subject he was about to bring forward involved no political considerations, and he was entitled to ask for the attention of all their Lordships upon it: it concerned the well-being of the Irish people, without religious or political considerations. The physical well-being of that people had undoubtedly frequently occupied the attention of Parliament; but it had been rather the object of its investigation than of direct legislation: there could he no stronger proof of this than the inquiry conducted by the noble Earl (Earl Devon), the inquiries that proceeded it, and the number of blue-books that had been published on the state of Ireland: but their legislation on this subject, apart from political questions, had been very limited indeed. Now, at the present time, without wishing to speak the language of an alarmist, he must say that the condition of the Irish people was
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such as to call upon their Lordships and the Government to take immediate steps in providing for the exigencies that might arise. He need not refer to the distress of the country during the present Session, which had unfortunately become mixed up with the Corn Bill; but he must state that the pressure of that distress had been altogether without example; and that if it had not been for the prompt and energetic measures taken by the Government and the Legislature to provide the people with a supply of food—he referred particularly to the district in which he resided—would have been pregnant with social evils. This he took for granted: the universality of that distress might be denied; but the severity of its pressure in particular districts must be admitted by all. The state in which the late Government found Ireland with respect to its supply of food was most alarming; where the majority of a people existed on the lowest kind of food, if that failed they must be left destitute of any; in November last that calamity occurred, and the deficiency had to be supplied by the Government, which was called on to administer the most difficult functions that could be cast upon any men in the world. But the efforts it had made to introduce Indian wheat as a cheap article of food had been successful; they had proved the protection of that country; it was admitted by all classes that but for the efforts of the Government, property would not have been safe, and society could not have been kept together. But for a Government to interfere with the supply of food was an undertaking of the most awful responsibility, unless it was done with discretion; if they disturbed the ordinary markets so as to exclude more grain than their own measure brought into it, the effect was not to improve the condition of the country, but to make it worse. By the ability of the gentlemen employed in the Commissariat, that difficult problem had been solved; the interposition of the Government had been effectual with the least possible disturbance of the actual state of the markets. Steps had also been taken to give increased employment to the poor; the first four Acts passed this Session by the Imperial Legislature were Acts for promoting public works, presentments of grand juries, and the construction of piers and harbours; but these measures had not been so successful as the Government wished, and as Parliament and the people of Ireland had a right to expect. He mentioned this for

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the purpose of asking their Lordships to lend their aid in amending the system and in improving the law, unless they wished to encounter similar failures in future years. Without wishing to use the language of alarm, he told his noble Friends opposite—and he made the statement publicly in order that it might be contradicted if it were an exaggeration—that the prospects of the present year were infinitely more alarming than were those of the year past, and that precautionary measures were much more necessary now than they were then. The extent of land under cultivation this year, he believed to be less than that of last year; and even if the crops came to full maturity, they were not likely to be so heavy as the crops of 1845. The disease in the potato, whether arising from atmospheric causes, or existing in the root itself, had exhibited itself much earlier than it did last year; it was also more widely diffused, having made its appearance in parts of the country that last year were free from its effects. Even the hopes entertained that potatoes raised from seed might be free from a disease supposed to be caused by an infection connected with the decay of the tubers, had failed; and there was now reason to apprehend a failure of the plant itself as an article of food. Such a failure would be the worst event of the kind that had ever happened in Ireland—no antecedent calamity of a similar nature could be compared to it. He was well acquainted with that of 1822, during which the late Archbishop of Tuam so nobly distinguished himself; and he was a party in the distribution of the generous bounty of England, by which upwards of 300,000 l. was placed in the hands of the committee for the relief of the people; but, pressing as the necessity then was—which was proved by the sympathy it elicited—the calamity was as nothing compared with that from which the people had just escaped. He did not believe their Lordships or the public generally were aware of the extent of the efforts, local or general, made for the relief of the people during the present year. It would be found that independently of private efforts, the amount of which did not appear by the returns before the House, a sum of 800,000 l. had been expended in alleviation of the distress. Not that that sum was lost to the public, if loss it could be termed, when it had been the means of preserving the lives of Her Majesty's subjects; but that amount had been advanced mainly upon
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the security of the land of Ireland; and could there be a greater proof of the intensity of distress than when the landowners came forward and charged the land of Ireland with a debt of at least 300,000 l.? Private exertions had also been very great; in the county of Clare, one of the great proprietors—one of that class so often at tacked, an absentee—gave 6,000 l. in one subscription. He alluded to Colonel Wyndham. In the county of Kilkenny Lord Kenmare gave 3,000 l., which was followed by 2,000 l. from a private country gentleman. He believed the private contributions to the district committees from individuals amounted to upwards of 100,000 l., without what was expended in employment of labour that would never appear in any returns. But beyond this, there was the employment which each individual landowner had afforded upon his own estate, the value of which did not appear, and never would appear. The distribution of the funds so obtained had been most judicious; they had been administered with the utmost wisdom. Men of greater zeal and higher capacity he had never met than the gentlemen who had been employed upon this duty; and it was curious to observe how the experience of men of sense and integrity enabled them, in a new position, to realize all the benefits of their former experience. But although these funds had been administered as wisely as the law machinery at the disposal of the Government allowed, he entirely denied they had been economically or quickly administered for the relief of distress. First, as to delay. The root and centre of the system for the employment of labour in Ireland was the Board of Public Works, the origin and powers of which he would briefly state, as he had the honour of being charged with the Bill for its establishment during the Government of the late Lord Grey. Previously to that Bill there were eleven existing Boards for the purpose of promoting public works in various modes, all of which it was deemed expedient to abolish, and appoint a general one, which should discharge all the functions of the others. The original proposition was to appoint five Commissioners, and there was thereby effected a saving of money to the extent of one-half on expenses; yet economy was but of little consequence as compared with efficiency. The Bill passed, but during its progress some apprehensions, on the part of Government with respect to patronage led to a voluntary reduction in

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the number of Commissioners from five to three. It was, however, understood that the reduction was an experiment to see if three Commissioners would prove sufficient. That Bill had been in operation now for a number of years, and he should be able to show it had given satisfaction, although not in the proportion that the Legislature had a right to expect. It had not been satisfactory, because year after year Parliament had imposed upon the Board the prosecution of every remedial measure which the exigencies of Ireland rendered necessary. In fact, the reputation of the Commissioners, and the confidence reposed in them by the public, had induced the Legislature and the Government to cast upon the Board greater burdens in the way of duty than it was possible for them to bear; and these burdens had led to the evils of which he complained. The Commissioners had to attend to all public works—roads, harbours, buildings, the new colleges, drainage, lunatic asylums, the collection of bad debts, wide streets, and many other matters of equal importance; and he asked the House whether it was physically possible that all these duties could be adequately performed by three individuals, however capable and industrious they might be? To a certain extent, therefore, the Board must be pronounced a failure. And how had it acted upon the late occasion when the duty was confided to it of finding employment? In the county of Clare an application was made by Lord Kenmare and himself to put them in the way of giving productive employment to the people about them; and their Lordships would scarcely credit him when he stated that up to the present time they had not been able to obtain the preliminary survey so as to enable them to take a single step. He did not mention this fact as a reproach to the Board, but as one of the strongest proofs he could give of its inadequacy to effect the work with which it was entrusted. It was not necessary for him to enlarge upon the necessity of promoting public works in Ireland; in every Parliamentary inquiry as to the state of Ireland, the question as to the employment of the people had come prominently forward; and he could refer to the Reports of successive Committees and Commissions in support of his views. That of 1819 was into the disease and fever which prevailed at that period in Ireland; the remedy suggested, was employment, which it was recommended should be given on
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public works. In 1822 there was a Committee upon Mr. Telford's great work, the establishment of the Holyhead line of road. This Committee only touched upon the subject collaterally; but they pointed out incidentally the waste of the then system of carrying on public works in Ireland, and recommended a better plan. In 1823 there was a Committee upon the employment of the poor, which recommended public works. In 1829 another Committee was appointed, not in relation to public works, but an Economical Committee, consisting mainly of English Members. They considered the expediency and the possibility of reducing the expenditure in Ireland; but so far from deciding the question in the way of reducing expenditure, they said they thought public works demanded Parliamentary aid and countenance, as calculated to give additional stimulus to industry, to increase the demand for labour, and to give greater facilities for improvements. This Committee recapitulated the whole of the recommendations of all the former Committees; and said that whilst union was maintained between the two countries, the Treasury ought to be as available for Irish as for Scotch purposes. The system which he now recommended for Ireland had been adopted in Scotland, and the result had been the advancement of that country by more than 100 years. What he asked was, that wisdom and good sense should be directed to the administration of the system, so that the country should be protected from waste, that the means of applying their own great resources should be given to the people of Ireland. As to the mode of carrying out public works, there could not be a greater contrast than between the grand jury system and that of the Board of Public Works. Take an example. The money which had been expended in his own locality upon roads and other works under the grand jury system, amounted to 1,200,000 l.; it was expended under contracts with the farmers of the district; the farmers who took a contract employed their own labourers and horses, so that not one farthing went into the general labour market of the county; the expenditure became a matter of account between them, and it was not an object to improve the condition of the people. On the other hand, by the system of the Board of Public Works, all their men were regularly paid on the Saturday night the amount they had earned in the week: the actual labourer

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received the wages. The effect upon the condition of the people was most extraordinary: in the one case the condition of the labourer was improved by the real reward which he received fur his industry; in the other it told in exaggeration of the rent which the farmer received, rather than in general improvement. The latest authoritative expression of opinion upon this subject was the Report of the Commissioners presided over by his noble Friend (the Earl of Devon), in which employment by means of public works was strongly recommended. That Commission also reported their opinion, that the operation of the system by which public works were promoted, gave encouragement to the outlay of private capital, stimulated industry, and promoted the prosperity of the whole surrounding districts, wherever lines of communication or other improvements were carried out. It was a most fanciful mistake that the advance of British capital to Irish labour was a loss. Looking at the whole expenditure under the Board of Public Works, there was an actual gain derived from the prosecution of the works. It had been stated in evidence that some parts of Galway had greatly profited from the opening of new communications. In one district, where no revenue was obtained prior to 1822, the revenue from 1822 to 1828 rose to 6,000 l. It was stated on the authority of Mr. Williams that in seven years 160,000 l. had been expended in Connaught, and that the increase of the annual revenue derived from the custom and excise had been equal to the whole of that expense. Mr. Griffiths had expended in the county of Cork 60,000 l. in seven years on improvements; a revenue of 50,000 l. a year was thence derived in customs and other departments. A Bill now before Parliament contemplated an advance of a million sterling for the improvement of Ireland. But, even more than money, what they wanted was assistance and superintendence; it was that which a Board of Public Works ought to give, but which unfortunately at this moment they were not able to give. His remarks had been confined to the inefficiency of the Board of Public Works; but they were not meant to imply any reflection on the parties at the head of it. But that was not all. Ireland had the finest soil in the world, a good climate, a people who, under favourable circumstances, were an industrious people. What they required was assistance to improve themselves, assistance
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to improve their agricultual education; and he said to that House, "Help us to improve ourselves, not only as you are doing by establishing schools, by improving our agriculture, and draining our soil, but make the normal schools which you propose to establish schools of industry as well as of morals and letters—schools for agricultural instruction, to teach the people the way they ought to till the land." The Leasing Bill, now before Parliament, contained a compulsory power for the rotation of crops; no one was to take advantage of that measure unless he had a rotation of crops. What the proprietors in Ireland wanted now was therefore this, the means of profiting by such encouragements to improvement. In conclusion, he begged to repeat that he imputed no blame to the Board of Public Works in Ireland, but he did impute blame to the Legislature for imposing upon that body labours which the Commissioners had not the means of performing. The expenditure of public money, instead of being a benefit, might become productive of evil, if proper means were not taken to control its application, and to make its expenditure effective for the purpose. The noble Lord concluded by moving the following Address:—
"That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, expressing the Readiness with which, during the present as well as in preceding Sessions, this House has concurred in the Enactment of various Measures intended and calculated to improve the Condition of Her Majesty's Subjects in Ireland, to reduce the Pressure of Distress, and to develop the great natural Resources of that important Part of Her Majesty's Dominions:
"That the Promotion and Extension of Public Works have been the Subject of repeated Recommendation, both of Parliamentary Committees and Royal Commissions:
"That an Act was passed in the year 1831, for the declared Purpose of promoting Works of public Utility, on a permanent System, under the control of Commissioners appointed by the Crown:
"That since the passing of that Act various public Duties, of the most important and responsible Nature, have been cast upon the Commissioners so appointed, and that at the present Moment they are charged with Functions infinitely more extended than were contemplated at the Period of their Appointment, and greater than it is possible for them satisfactorily to discharge:
"That their Functions have been increased by Measures which have passed during the present Session, and seem likely to be still further augmented by Measures now in progress:
"That the benevolent Intentions of Her Majesty, and the just Expectation of the Legislature, will be defeated, unless there be provided in Ireland a competent Authority to give Effect to the Laws which have passed, and which may hereafter pass on this subject:

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"That Her Majesty may therefore be graciously pleased to direct such Steps to be taken, or Measures to be laid before Parliament, as shall provide for the more efficient Performance of these important Duties, as well as in all other Ways to direct and stimulate the Industry, and to promote the Improvement of the Labouring Classes in Ireland."
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEhad listened with the greatest pleasure and satisfaction to the speech of the noble Lord (Lord Monteagle). Though Her Majesty's Government would not, he trusted, be thought indifferent to the topics which had been touched upon, should he not enter on their consideration, he could, on the other hand, anticipate nothing hurtful from the statement which the noble Lord had made. If he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) did not state with particularity the intentions of Her Majesty's Government for the future, he hoped neither his noble Friend nor the House would suppose that they were not aware of the importance of making up their minds on the subject. He could assure his noble Friend, that feeling as he did the utmost confidence in the accuracy of the facts which he had stated, and which he had the means of informing himself of better than he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) had: and agreeing in the sentiments he had expressed, he thought he should yet consult his duty and the interests of the country better if he abstained from stating at that moment—even if they were perfectly ripe and mature, which he did not pretend they were—the designs of Government for carrying into effect many of the suggestions which the noble Lord had made, and which (or at least measures relative to the same subjects) had for some time been under the consideration of Her Majesty's Government. At the same time, he was prepared to state that he fully acquiesced with his noble Friend in reference to the source of the imperfections to which he had referred in administering relief to the people of Ireland during the late famine. He considered that the machinery of the Board of Works was quite inadequate to the duties with which they were entrusted; and he thought it no reproach to the late Government, that, having to meet an emergency of an extraordinary character, they could not at once supply the additional machinery which was necessary to meet the increased demands, and which it ought to be remembered were growing from day to day in magnitude and importance. He assured his noble Friend, however, that Her Majesty's Government
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had for the last week, and would, for some time to come, have under their daily consideration the means of giving a greater efficiency to that Board, and multiplying the means which could be brought to operate upon the welfare of Ireland, and adding, if possible, to the security that the sums advanced should be applied to the objects intended to be promoted. He would to God he could differ with the noble Lord as to the probability of a recurrence of that great and alarming evil which it had pleased Providence to inflict upon many of the countries of Europe, and which, from peculiar circumstances well known to their Lordships had fallen with peculiar and aggravated weight upon Ireland. Such a prospect before them, added, no doubt, to the duty which was at all times incumbent on the Government of this country to promote the general condition and improvement of the people. The Government would endeavour to discharge their duty in this respect with efficiency, both with regard to the matters to which his noble Friend had adverted, and also the other duties which arose from the general necessities felt in administering to the wants of a poor country. The noble Lord had truly stated, that large sums had from time to time been advanced for the improvement of Ireland; and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) could corroborate his statement that, although some of the sums had been made in the form of donations and grants, yet, with respect to the larger sums which had from time to time been expended for the improvement of Ireland, they had been no loss to the Government, but had yielded a good return. He trusted that the present Government would be able to provide additional means of employment to the people in the same way, taking care, of course, at the same time, to secure the finances of this country from the danger of ultimate loss. He repeated that he thought the machinery existing in Ireland for the administration of relief during the recent distress had been found inadequate; but in saying this, he meant to attach no blame either to Her Majesty's Government or the officers in their employment. He believed that the greatest zeal had been shown by both; and that, in an especial manner, important services had been rendered by Sir John Burgoyne and Serjeant Howley; he thought it, indeed, exceedingly fortunate that the Board of Works had been under the direction for the last ten years of the former gentleman, for whose services

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the country could not be too grateful. He begged to add also, that the proceedings of that Board had been attended with this striking and peculiar advantage—that they had been administered without the slightest taint of personal or party interest; and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) amid all the discontent which might arise in particular quarters from not seeing their plans carried into effect, had never heard any imputation of the slightest partiality, or improper motives, urged against them by any party. This afforded a pleasing security that, if Government did their duty, as he hoped they would, in the selection of proper persons to administer their measures, even in Ireland, which, heretofore, had rather a bad reputation in those matters, it could be done without danger of charges of jobbing or of acting from interested motives being brought against public functionaries. He hoped his noble Friend would not expect him to say more on the present occasion. He thought that the House, and the public, and the Government were obliged to him for the statement he had made; he invited his future attention to the subject; he knew that no Government was the worse for being watched in their operations; and he only claimed from him what he was sure he would give, namely, a candid consideration of the measures which the Government would submit to Parliament; but he hoped that under all the circumstances, at that late period of the Session, and considering the very recent formation of the Government, he would not persevere in putting the question to the vote, which might have the appearance of implying a doubt as to the sufficiency of the measures which the Government would submit hereafter to the consideration of Parliament. In the course of a few days a full and authentic statement would be submitted to the other House of Parliament, not only of the money which had been expended, but of the mode in which it had been expended, which would furnish a complete and satisfactory means of judging of the past proceedings, as well as afford some indication of the measures to be adopted in future.
The EARL of DEVON, who was very imperfectly heard, wished to say a few words on a subject with which it had fallen to his lot, within the last twelve months, to have a great deal to do. He was sure there could be no difference of opinion upon the general principles which the noble Lord had laid down. There could be but one
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opinion as to the importance of advancing and executing the public works, with a view of giving employment to the people of Ireland; and the noble Lord had referred to documents which showed beyond a doubt that the expenditure of money for that purpose by the Imperial Parliament had not been thrown away, but had, on the contrary, produced a great and valuable return. Assuming, then, that on this part of the subject there could be no difference of opinion—assuming that the present Government would apply themselves diligently and effectively to carry out this great object into successful operation, he would take the liberty of pointing out some difficulties—he might call them obstructions—which appeared to impede the beneficial operation of the measures which had hitherto been adopted by the Legislature on this subject. A matter which he regarded as of still greater importance than public works was the employment of the people in the improvement of the soil, and in increasing the protective powers of the country. The Government, following out the recommendations of successive Committees and Commissions, had introduced a variety of measures to facilitate the improvement of the country. One of these was the Act of Parliament to which his noble Friend had first adverted, namely, the Public Works Act. The Government and Legislature of that day had been so fully aware of the importance of employing the people in the class of works to which he alluded, that they introduced a special clause into the Act for that very purpose. The advantages to proprietors of drainage and other improvements of that kind were strongly dwelt upon; but the terms imposed were found to be too rigid. It was required that the repayment of the loans should be limited to three years, and that the interest should not be loss than 5 per cent. As might be supposed, the clause containing such provisions remained a dead letter; and he believed that the only landed proprietor in Ireland who took advantage of it was his noble Friend the present Lord Lieutenant of that country, who commenced a work of considerable importance, not merely to himself, but to the country. Various other Acts had been passed since then, all containing different provisions; some providing for the repayment of the interest in one way, and others in a different manner. The amended Drainage Act of the present Session was one of the best of these; but he should complain

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of the manner in which the discretion allowed under the Act had been exercised by the late Government. There was a discretion as to the rate of interest and the period of time to be allowed for repayment of the loans to be advanced under the Act; but, notwithstanding the anxiety to afford employment to the people during the present period of scarcity, proprietors were not able to comply with the terms required of them, except in one or two cases. During the month of March last, immediately after the passing of this Act, he had himself a good deal of communication with the people; and he knew, of his own knowledge, that applications to the Government for loans at 3½ per cent were refused; the answer returned, being, that the money could not be given to them or to any one else at less than 5 per cent. That, certainly, had the effect of producing an impression that the Government were not disposed to promote the working of the Act. It was a great mistake to suppose that operations of improvement of waste lands were operations for the benefit of individuals only: in fact, there could not be a greater mistake. The effect was to bring into cultivation, and render available for the food of man, hundreds of acres not now available for any useful purpose; and numbers of persons, who must otherwise be mendicants, were thereby enabled to procure an honest livelihood by cultivating such reclaimed lands. To say, therefore, that no good was derived to the public from the cultivation of waste lands seemed to him a perfect absurdity. He hoped the Government would turn their attention practically to the point of establishing some system by which individuals might see in what manner they were to avail themselves of the existing Acts of Parliament with respect to this subject. Not wishing to go into details, as he had the power of doing, to show the good effects of cultivating waste lands, he might say that a certain society in Ireland had gone on for years reclaiming waste lands without deriving any benefit to their own funds; but they had now 2,000 persons earning their subsistence from those lands; and all this had been effected within nine years, and not one of those persons had ever had relief under the Poor Law. This showed that though such improvements might be no benefit to the owners of the land, they were still most beneficial to the public. The first step in this direction which he would venture to counsel the Government
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to take, would be to have all these Acts looked into together, with a view to see how they bore upon one another. There were many clashing and contradictory enactments in them; and it would be most desirable to have some means found to simplify the law as it stood under those various enactments. He was happy to state that the appointments which had been lately made to office in Ireland had acquired the confidence of the people of Ireland; and he had a conviction that the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary for Ireland, would address himself to the task of improving this part of the law manfully, and would apply himself to understand the subject, and give Ireland the benefit of his talents, which they all know were unquestionably sufficient to do that subject justice. He might mention one instance to show the nature of the legislation which had been adopted with reference to the improvement of land. There was an Act passed some time ago for enabling parties to charge entailed estates for the purpose of draining; but the Act of last year rendered necessary the consent of all the occupying tenants, before the land could be drained. He know a case showing the effect of this. It was an estate on which there were 300 or 400 tenants, one-half of whom could not write their names, and yet they were all to be visited and have explained to them, that they must sign papers for the purpose of having the drainage. This was a serious obstacle to the working of the measure, and the clause had scared away many persons who were desirous of taking advantage of the statute. The great object of every one, at the present moment, must be to employ as many persons as possible in Ireland as cultivators of the soil, from which, ultimately, their subsistence must be drawn. The delay arising from the operation of the existing Improvement Acts was a public evil, which he was sure the Government would not fail to deal with. He had that confidence in the noble Marquess opposite, that he was sure the Government would apply themselves to remedy the evil without delay.
The EARL of CLANCARTYexpressed his satisfaction in what had fallen from the noble Earl near him (the Earl of Devon). All that the noble Earl had said showed the importance of giving employment, not in connexion with the Poor Law, but so as to enable the poor to support themselves. He could bear his testimony

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to the great efficiency of the officers who conducted the Board of Works. From his experience, which had been extensive, he could say they had given great satisfaction to all parties. He looked forward to an improved state of agriculture as the means of giving employment to the labouring class in Ireland all through the year.
LORD MONTEAGLEbegged to press upon the Government the necessity of caution in dealing with Ireland in its present state, which he believed was unexampled in the history of the world. It was in the transition state of leaving a lower description of food, and taking to a higher description. That was a most arduous state of things. After what had been said, he should not insist upon the Motion.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
House adjourned.