Sitting of 20 July 1846

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBERS SWORN. For Liskeard, Charles Buller, Esq.—For Stafford County (Southern Division), Hon. George Anson.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2°. Books and Engravings; Prisons (Ireland); Fisheries Ireland); District Lunatic Ayslums (Ireland); Grand Jury Cess Bonds (Ireland); Mandamus (Ireland); Taxation of Costs (Compensation for Lands) (Ireland); Adverse Claims (Ireland).
Reported. Ejectments, &c. (Ireland); Leases (Ireland); Exclusive Privilege of Trading Abolition (Ireland).
3°. and passed. Ordnance Survey.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir Edmund Filmer, from Inhabitants of the Parish of East Peckham, for the Better Observance of the Lord's Day. — By Sir Robert Harry Inglis, from Inhabitants of the Parish of St. Sidwell, in the City of Exeter, against the Roman Catholic Relief Bill.—By Sir Edmund Filmer, from Guardians of the Hollingbourn Union, for the Adoption of a Measure making the Landlords of Tenements where the Rents are under £6 liable to the Poor Rates.—By several hon. Members, from various places, against the Union of St. Asaph and Bangor, but at the same time providing for the Immediate Appointment of a Bishop to the newly erected See of Manchester.—From Inhabitants of the Borough of Sunderland, for promoting the Establishment of Baths and Washhouses.

MILITARY FLOGGING AT HOUNSLOW.
DR. BOWRING: I understand, Sir, that the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War is now in a condition to give an answer to the question of which I have given notice of my intention to put this evening to him. It is, Sir, whether his attention have been called to a case in which death is alleged to have been lately caused by the infliction of military flogging. As I do not wish to anticipate his answer or his statement by any reference to newspaper reports, I will merely put the question, with the addition of "whether any steps have been taken by him in consequence?"
MR. FOX MAULE: With reference to this question, I have in the first place, Sir, to say that I am very glad my hon. Friend has used the word "alleged," and that he said "death is alleged to have been caused." For I must say that the entire proceeding, no doubt from misinformation, has been mis-stated, and the public have been exceedingly misled by the newspapers. This unfortunate man, Frederick White, of the 7th Hussars, was guilty of a most violent and insubordinate act. He struck a non-commissioned officer, who was in the performance of his duty, with a

1303
heavy poker; and the man would have been most severely injured, if not killed, by the blow, had he caught it otherwise than he had. As it was he was knocked down. For this crime Frederick White was, on the 10th of June, tried by a district court-martial, and sentenced to receive the military punishment of 150 lashes. That sentence was confirmed by his Grace the Commander-in-Chief, and on the 15th of June it was carried into effect. I must state here that it is the practice in the army, whenever a soldier is sentenced to receive punishment by a court-martial, before it is carried into effect, to have a certificate from the surgeon of the regiment certifying that the man so sentenced is in a fit state to undergo the punishment; and that certificate accompanied the sentence upon this occasion. On the 15th of June, in the presence of the regiment, the punishment was carried into effect in the usual manner. And so far from there having been any interference by the surgeon of the regiment to take the man down, and a refusal to do so by the commanding officer, there was no interference of any kind whatsoever. After the punishment had been inflicted, the man was taken down and removed to the hospital in the usual manner, where he was regularly visited by the surgeon every day. He remained in hospital so long as to be declared fit for duty again, and he was actually so far recovered as to be doing fatigue duty in the hospital, when Colonel Whyte inquired of the surgeon regarding him. On the 10th of July, however, Colonel Whyte received information that the man was dangerously ill. Under all the circumstances, he thought it desirable that Mr. Warren, the surgeon, should report the man's illness, so that additional advice might be obtained if necessary; but, unfortunately, before any additional advice could be obtained, the man, on the 11th of July, died. A post mortem examination took place, at which two other surgeons, sent down by the Horse Guards, in addition to Dr. Warren, assisted, and the report made upon that post mortem examination was to the effect that the punishment had nothing to do with the cause of the man's death. I understand, further, that the medical officer appointed by the coroner's inquisition—appointed, in fact, by the coroner himself to look into the case—has come to the same resolution. I will add this much to my reply, that as the public have been very much horrified by the report that a large piece of skin had been re-
1304
moved from the man's back by the flogging, it may be necessary to mention that that piece of skin was removed after death, by surgical operation, for the purpose of examining whether the punishment inflicted had been in any way the cause of death. The case is this day again before the coroner, where these matters will be proved; but I have stated enough to show that there has been great exaggeration in this case, and that it would be well if those who take upon themselves to report these cases to the public, would make themselves more thoroughly acquainted with, and informed upon the facts before they alarmed the public mind by their reports.

SUGAR DUTIES.
The House in Committee of Ways and Means.
LORD J. RUSSELLaddressed the Chairman (Mr. Greene) as follows:—Sir, had Her Majesty's Ministers been disposed to consult their own ease, they would not in the present state of affairs have proposed any considerable alteration in the Sugar Duties. They would have had plausible reasons to allege for such a course: the advanced state of the Session, the labours which this House has already gone through, the recent formation of the Government, the intricacy of some of the details connected with this question—would have formed, in the eyes of many, grounds sufficient for postponing to another Session any large or permanent alteration of the Sugar Duties. But, Sir, there are, in our opinion, considerable evils suffered by the country in consequence of the present state of these duties. We consider that the great body of the public are sufferers by the increased price of sugar—a commodity upon which no less than 12,000,000 l., or a sum ranging from 11,000,000 l. to 13,000,000 l., is expended by the public in this country: we think that the revenue is a very considerable sufferer by the mode in which these duties have been hitherto raised, and the exclusion, by prohibitory duties, of sugars of a certain class from the markets of this country. We are also of opinion that it is most desirable, for the sake of the public, for the sake of the interests which are most concerned, and for the sake of the trade and commerce of this country, to endeavour to arrive at some permanent settlement of this question, and not to expose this question any longer to discussion, debate, and doubt, from year to year. With these motives, therefore, however unprepared we might seem to be on this occa-

1305
sion, I am now about to state to the Committee the general reasons upon which we proceed, and the plan which—if this House shall be disposed to entertain a plan for a permanent settlement of the Sugar Duties—we propose for adoption. Sir, it has been a general complaint with all the most intelligent writers upon the subject for many years, that the price of sugar is enormously increased. Mr. M'Culloch, a considerable authority upon this subject, states, both in his Dictionary of Commerce and in his more recent work on Taxation, that the estimated increase in the cost of sugar imported in 1840, 1841, and 1842, by reason of the protective duty, on the supposition that foreign sugar rose from 20 s. or 21 s. to 25 s. per cwt., was no less, during these three years, than 3,240,260 l. a year. In the same manner, and for the same reason, the revenue was greatly reduced in the following years by the advanced price of sugar, making that article unattainable by all the labouring classes, and its consumption extremely limited and reduced by the richer and middle classes. Passing, Sir, at once from what has happened in former years, I will now take notice of the plan proposed last year by the right hon. Gentleman whom I see opposite, who was then the First Lord of the Treasury, the effects which that plan had, and the views with which it was introduced. The Chancellor of the Exchequer at that time—the Member for Cambridge University—in speaking of that plan, said—
"The highest quoted prices of Java sugar at present are from 22 s. to 24 s. 6d., but ordinary Java and Manilla sugars are lower, say about 17 s.; the average may, therefore, be taken at 20 s. Then, supposing the first cost of Java sugar to be 20 s., by adding the amount of duty, 23 s. 4d., it gives a total price of 43 s. 4d. Then, with respect to West India sugar, the average Gazette price of that article is 29 s. 7d.; add to that the duty of 14 s., the total is 43 s. 7d.; and that calculation only shows a difference in price between the two articles of 3d. This would make it little dearer than the Java; and I think I have taken a fair average upon the whole."
We may, therefore suppose that the right hon. Gentlemen calculated upon a price of 43 s. 6d. per cwt as likely to be the price of the year; but, Sir, in the course of the year a very considerable rise in the price of sugar took place. The Gazette averages, which for the four weeks in April show the price at 30 s. per cwt, in the last four weeks in December show a price of 35 s. per cwt. The cause of that difference, I believe, was very much what was stated by the right hon. Gentleman—namely, a
1306
want of the supply of Manilla sugar, and the absorption of Java sugar on the Continent; but the fact remains the same, that there was a very considerably increased price—that the hopes of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) were to a great degree disappointed—and that a rise of 5s., 6s., or even 7s. above the average price which he had calculated, took place at certsin periods of that year. I will next take the financial statement of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury. He stated—
"We think it probable that the effect of the reduction of the duty may lead to an increased consumption of perhaps 43,000 tons. Of course, these estimates must be taken as very general; but it appears to us probable that the increased consumption of sugar, consequent upon the reduction of duty, will amount to a total not much short of 250,000 tons. The consumption of British muscovado sugar, to the extent of 160,000 tons, at 14 s., would give 2,240,000 l. The consumption of clayed sugar at a duty of 16 s. 4d., or sugar equal to clayed, to the extent of 70,000 tons, will give a revenue of 1,140,000 l.; foreign free muscovado sugar, 5,000 tons, at 23 s. 4d., will give a revenue of 116,700 l.; of free labour foreign clayed, or equal to clayed, 15,000 tons, at 28 s., will give a revenue of 42,0000 l. As I said before, these estimates must of course be very general; but, supposing them to approximate to the truth, the consequence will be, that we shall receive from the duty on sugar, in consequence of the reduction, the sum of 3,916,000 l."
Now, Sir, the estimate of the right hon. Gentleman, when he proceeded to make a reduction in the duties on sugar—the very large reduction which he made of upwards of 11 s. per cwt. on colonial sugars—was more than justified; but by limiting the means of supply his estimate was widely different from the truth with respect to foreign sugars. Here is the actual fact with respect to sugar from the 1st of January, 1845. The right hon. Gentleman calculated the consumption of 1845 as follows: Of British Plantation muscovadoes, 160,000 tons—the actual consumption was 237,636 tons, or an increase of 77,636 tons; of British Plantation clayed, or equal to white clayed, he calculated on 70,000 tons—the actual consumption was 1,107 tons, a falling-off to the extent of 68,893 tons; of foreign free labour muscovadoes he calculated on 5,000 tons—the actual consumption was 3,809 tons; of foreign free labour clayed, or equal to white clayed, he calculated on 15,000 tons—the actual consumption was 54 tons. In consequence of the difference of duty, instead of 2,240,000 l, derived to the revenue, at the rate of 14 l. per ton on British muscovado, the produce

1307
was 3,326,904 l.; and instead of 1,140,000 l. on the British Plantation clayed, or equal to white clayed, at a duty of 16 l. 6s. 8d. per ton. the duty amounted to only 18,081 l. Instead of 116,700 l. on foreign free labour muscovadoes, at a duty of 23 l. 6s. 8d., the duty amounted to only 88,876 l.; and instead of 42,000 l. duty, which the right hon. Baronet calculated on from foreign free-labour sugar clayed, or equal to white clayed, at a duty of 28 l., we derived only 1,512 l. The total decrease, according to that estimate, in the revenue received was 481,327 l. That was not the actual deficiency in the calculation; because there was a large portion of the British Plantation sugar taken above at 14 s. per cwt., which paid duty previous to the 14th of March at the old rate of 25 s. 2d. The real difference, therefore, was only 341,529 l.* Now, I think this account sufficiently shows that, while the right hon. Gentleman's plan was successful even beyond his hopes, while he reckoned upon a decrease of duty producing a large increase of consumption, it was as conspicuous a failure when he calculated, with respect to the admission of

* The following is the complete Official Return, of which the noble Lord quoted the summary:—

Tons.

Stock of sugar on hand, 1st January, 1845

45,000

Supply, West India

135,000

Supply, Mauritius

40,000

Supply, East India

70,000

245,000

Total

290,000

Sir Robert Peel calculated the consumption of 1845 as follows:—

Quality.

Quantity and Price.

Value.

Increase.

Decrease.

Of British Plantation, Muscovadoes

Tons.

£.

s.

d.

£.

Tons.

£.

Tons.

£.

160,000

at

14

0

0

2,240,000

The actual consumption was

237,636

at

14

0

0

3,326,904

77,636

1,086,904

Of British Plantation, clayed, or equal to white clayed

70,000

at

16

6

8

1,140,000

The actual consumption was

1,107

at

16

6

8

18,081

68,893

1,121,919

Of foreign free-labour Muscovadoes

5,000

at

23

6

8

116,700

The actual consumption was

3,809

at

23

6

8

88,876

1,191

27,824

Of foreign free labour, clayed, or equal to white clayed

15,000

at

28

0

0

420,000

The actual consumption was

54

at

28

0

0

1,512

14,946

1,568,231

Actual

242,606

Decrease

85,030

1,568,231

Increase

77,636

1,086,904

Total decrease

7,394

481,327

N.B. £481,327 is not the actual deficiency in the calculation as part of the British Plantation sugar, taken above at 14 s. per cwt., paid duty previous to the 14th March, at the old rate of 25 s. 2d. The real difference, therefore, was only £341,529.

distinct classes of foreign sugar, that a high duty would make up the revenue he estimated. I will now, Sir, proceed to state what are the general prospects, as stated from various sources, of the supply of sugar for the coming year, taking the estimate from the 5th of April, 1846, to the 5th of April, 1847. The estimate I now hold in my hand I consider extreme, and by no means likely to be realized. It first states the amount of colonial and free - labour sugar in the warehouse—

Colonial and free-labour sugar in ware house, April 5, 1846

Tons.

40,000

Estimated import from April 5, 1846, to April 5, 1847 (Customs' Letter):—

West Indies

125,000

Mauritius

50,000

East Indies

80,900

255,000

Calculated amount of free-labour sugar admitted from foreign countries

20,000

Making in the whole

315,000

Probable stock April 5, 1847, stock being notoriously low

45,000

Available for consumption

270,000

Sir, I have here various other returns, especially four, which appear to me to come nearer the mart than that I have just read. Here is a statement put forward by the West India body. They estimate the produce for

The West Indies

125,000 Tons

The Mauritius

50,000

The East Indies

75,000

Total

250,000

Here is another estimate by the Committee of Sugar Refiners, who calculate the produce from

The West Indies

115,000 Tons

The Mauritius

40,000

The East Indies

70,000

Total

225,000

Another private estimate assigns to

The West Indies

110,000

The Mauritius

45,000

The East Indies

70,000

Total

225,000

I have another statement from persons engaged in the trade, which calculates the whole supply at 230,000 tons. Now, I think about 230,000 tons may be taken as the estimated supply for the coming year. I have read a statement of what was the effect of the right hon. Gentleman's plan. That extended from January, 1845, to January of the present year; the statement from April to April gives a consumption of 252,000 tons. I think we cannot say, according to that estimate, supposing the duties were to be near what they were last year, that there would be less than 20,000 tons required for the increased consumption of this country. The question, therefore, is, where are we to look for this increased supply? There was a statement made by the right hon. Gentleman at the commencement of this year, when he brought forward his general plan with regard to the trade and finance of the country, in which he proposed that there should be a reduction of the duty on free-labour sugar to 19 s. 10 d. from 23 s. 4d.; but that the prohibitory duty on all other foreign sugar should remain the same. Now, Sir, I have here an extract from the circular of a well-known house—Messrs. Truman and Cook—dated the 2nd of February, 1846, which says—
"The only proposed alteration in the duty is the reduction of 3s. 6d. per cwt. on foreign free-labour sugar, which, if nothing further is done, either by treaties or otherwise, will have very little effect upon the market, as the quantity
1310
which can be received will not, it is now evident, be of material importance."
Sir, I believe that statement, made by a firm of experience in the trade, to be thoroughly borne out by the fact, and that the increased price will limit the consumption; that you will be disappointed of obtaining the supply you wish; that your revenue will not increase as it ought to do, by increasing the supply of sugar; and that the people will suffer from the price they must pay, owing to the limit you place on the quantity that comes into your markets. Now let it be borne in mind that, supposing the consumption is 250,000 tons, an increase of price to the amount of 6s. only per cwt. would be a tax on the people of this country in the price of their sugar of 1,500,000 l. a year, and that a tax which does not go into the Exchequer; it is paid by the people, but gives nothing whatever to the Government. In that state of the supply of sugar, what I should naturally be disposed to recommend, therefore, would be the admission of other foreign sugars into the markets of this country, to supply the deficiency under which it is evident we must otherwise suffer during the present year. But we are here met by an objection, contrary to the system which has prevailed during the last four or five years, but more decidedly in the present year, of allowing the people to buy in the cheapest market—we are here met by an objection that "by so doing, by admitting all foreign sugars, you would encourage slavery and give an increased stimulus to the Slave Trade;" and it is said that "there are moral considerations which overbear all financial and commercial views, and all views connected with the comfort and welfare of the people of this country." In examining that argument, though not at any length, I will just point out where I think it fails, both in completeness and in efficacy. That argument fails in completeness; because, while you refuse admission to your home market of the sugars of foreign countries, you place no such bar on the admission of other productions. You admit cotton, tobacco, copper, and various other articles which are produced by slave labour. Therefore, Sir, you do not actually carry into effect, or even pretend to carry into effect, these humane views which the persons who are most opposed to the admission of slave produce consistently entertain. I hold in my hand a circular with respect to the Sugar Duties, which is headed

1311
"urgent," and which begins with stating, it to be a very great misfortune, that which Ministers and statesmen of this country have regarded year by year as a very great advantage—namely, "the great increase in the import and consumption of cotton from the United States. It has been thought by the great majority of this House that a very large increase in the import of cotton, affording the means of industry and livelihood to hundreds of thousands of our people, making our manufacturing towns busy and flourishing, was a great advantage to the State. The persons to whom I allude contend, very consistently as I think, that the increase in the import of cotton from 1790 to 1845 ought to excite the grief and indignation of all moralists and philanthropists. They go on to say that—
"If it be stated as a reason for excepting the United States from the principle of excluding slave produce, that the slavery existing in that country is characterized by none of the greatest horrors of the African Slave Trade, the Committee would observe that that atrocious traffic had been succeeded there by another—in some features still more revolting—the breeding of slaves, whose value is regulated by the price of cotton wool in the British market."
Nobody can forget the eloquent statements that were made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh with respect to the Slave Trade in the United States; nobody can deny the force of the observations he then made, or the facts which are here stated by the Anti-Slavery Committee, that the consumption of cotton wool in this country, and the use of it in our manufactures, give an impulse and encouragement to the Slave Trade in the United States; and yet, if any one were to say that we should not on that account allow cotton wool to come into this country—if he were to say that before we will admit cotton wool we will force the United States to a solution of that tremendous problem that hangs over them—that tremendous problem, whether they shall keep their black population in a state of slavery; or whether, applying the great articles of their declaration of rights, they shall, at once, admit them to supreme power in many States, and treat them, as Mr. Clay contends they ought to be treated, as entitled to the elective privileges. Though constituting the majority in themselves, to say that we would insist on the emancipation of all their slaves, or that we should not take a single bale of cotton wool, would be nothing less than insanity.
1312
Sir, the same argument will apply to several other productions; it is the same with regard to copper ore, with respect to which the slaves employed in the mines of Cuba are as great sufferers as any that are employed on the worst sugar esates in that country; and yet, so from having proceeded on this consistent plan of the Anti-Slavery Committee, we have of late years diminished the duties on the admission of copper ore, and totally abrogated the duties on cotton wool. Such, then, is the first instance to show that your policy, if it were to proceed on an exceptional rule, is incomplete and unsatisfactory, even to those who most strongly maintain it. But you have not been able to maintain it even on that ground. You have not been able to say we will admit sugar only from our own Colonies and possessions, in which we have enacted that slavery shall no longer exist. You have been obliged—the late Ministry has been obliged by the necessity of the case, by the insufficient supply which comes from our own Colonies—to admit the sugars of other countries to our markets. The consequence has been a new complication of the problem. You have had to decide what was the state of society in those particular countries; what was the state of society in Java, for instance; and whether the obligation to cultivate sugar in that case did or did not amount to a state of slavery. You have had to consider, also, what was the state of society in Manilla; and you have also exposed yourselves to the decision according to the interests of the Dutch Commercial Company, at one time disposed to give you a large supply of sugar, and at another to withhold it. But besides this, you are obliged by the principles of your law and your treaties, to admit slaveholding countries which have treaties with you, providing that their produce shall be received on the terms of the most favoured nation into competition with the free-labour States. You could not do otherwise. You may say that no great quantity of sugar is admitted in that case; but your principle has utterly broken down under you: when you admit certain slave States to send their sugar here your principle is at an end. But in order to save your principle, you have been obliged to take another method—you have been obliged to refuse to Spain the privilege, which she claimed under Treaty, to send you her produce on the footing of the most favoured nation. You have been obliged to do so on grounds

1313
which, I think, are not very honourable, or worthy of a great country like this. It is shown by the Spanish Minister, that but a few years ago, within these ten years, you yourselves have claimed the benefit of these treaties, upon the principle that you had a right to be treated on the footing of the most favoured nation, and you have been obliged to reply, "True, we made that claim, but we were not justified in making it, and it was for you to find out the flaw in our claim." Sir, I cannot but be of opinion myself, that, although that Treaty has been at different times violated in Spain, yet the principle she contended for is contained in the provisions of the Treaty of Utrecht. I found lately, in looking over the correspondence of an ancestor of mine, John, Duke of Bedford, who was employed in negotiating the Treaty of 1762, that when he proposed to refuse to the Spaniards the power of procuring their fish from Newfoundland, the Spanish Minister said to him—
"If that is the case, we shall not admit your salt fish into Spanish ports."
The Duke of Bedford immediately replied to him—
"You cannot do that without refusing it to other countries; we are on the footing of the most favoured nation—gens carissima; the salt fish of France must be prohibited at the same time."
The Spanish Minister said—
"I agree at once; I acknowledge that such is the case; but I at once say those treaties are very onerous, and we are looking to a revision of them; for we do not find, though they contain that principle, that they are fair to the two nations."
That is the sum and substance of the conversation stated by the Duke of Bedford—a proof sufficient that at that time it was the opinion, both of the English and the Spanish Minister, that the produce of either country was to be treated on the footing of the most favoured nation. Now, I must say, when you are standing up for humanity, it is a misfortune that you should be obliged to endeavour to find excuses for evading an obligation which otherwise would be binding, as contained in the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht, and in its tenor and spirit, favourable to the produce of both nations. But there is a further and more fatal defect in these objections, which are urged against the admission of slave-grown sugar. You do, no doubt, to a certain degree, diminish the price in the ports and markets of the world of that sugar, by refusing to take it; but the resources of
1314
commerce are infinite, and the spirit of commerce is too strong to be bound by stipulations which are against the natural interests of commerce. What the merchants do therefore is, to take care to find a market for that sugar in some country; they search the north of Europe, they search the shores of the Mediterranean, they send to Hamburgh, they send to Petersburgh, they send to Genoa—they search, in short, for a market anywhere, by which they may obtain a sale for that slave-grown sugar, and obtain supplies in return, which they can dispose of in the English market; and they then pay the Spanish producers of Cuba with those English manufactures which they might as well have sent to them direct without this intervening transaction. With a good deal of inconvenience, with a good deal of loss to English commerce, but, above all, with a great loss to the English consumer, this does, in fact, provide that which you seem to dread, that to which you so much object, namely, that the employer of slave labour in Cuba and Brazil is able to sell his sugar, and obtain a profitable return for it from some part of Europe. That object is attained. And this, again, destroys the whole morality of your proceeding. I see it popularly said, when there are meetings of persons who are a good deal inflamed upon this subject—"This slave-grown produce is, in fact, the produce of a felony, it is the produce of crime; these are stolen goods which you ask us to consume." It may be very well to say that these are stolen goods, and that you will not consume them; but if I were to put such a case as that in the instance of an individual, what would be thought of the answer? If a person should come with a quantity of sugar known to be really stolen from a warehouse, and should bring it to a shopkeeper and ask him to buy it, what would be thought if his answer were, "No, I cannot buy it, I know it is stolen goods; but I have a neighbour who has no scruple in taking it, I will direct you to him: he will give you a return in value for that which you have stolen, and if you will bring me what he gives you, I will buy it of you?" Of course, the whole pretence of morality would be demolished by that. I, therefore, for these several reasons, which I will not any further dwell upon, hold that the ground which has been hitherto taken is not tenable; that you must in this instance—as in the various instances in which upon the proposition of

1315
the late Government means have been adopted for taking away restrictions and admitting the people of this country to the best markets—proceeding upon the same principle, you must admit the sugar of these foreign countries into the markets of the United Kingdom. But while I say this, and contend that you have no sufficient grounds any longer to refuse to the people of this country that benefit, and that you ought not to deny to them the power of obtaining their sugars at 1,500,000 l. or 2,000,000 l. less than they now pay, I must admit that there are considerations which the West India body urge, and there are other considerations pertaining to the interests of the State, which forbid you to make an immediate equalization of the duties. Sir, the West India body urge, in the first place, and they urge with truth, that the change from slavery to freedom was an immense revolution effected by law; that it changed the relations, changed the mode of proceeding, changed the social condition of the labourers of the West Indies; that it reduced their produce from 4,000,000 cwts. of sugar to 2,500,000 in the course of a very few years; and then even your 20,000,000 l. of compensation, large, liberal, and bountiful as it was on the part of the people of this country, has not been a complete and full compensation for the losses which in those first years they have sustained. They say, moreover, that having made the attempt to reconcile themselves to this great change, to employ labourers by new means, to offer wages instead of compulsion, to entice labourers away from indolence and enjoyment, which to men just set free must have been so powerful, this country did not allow them a full admission to other markets of the world, whence they could obtain a supply of free labour. Now, I think they are somewhat justified in this complaint. I do not think the Government of this country, or the Parliament of this country, was wrong in being exceedingly jealous at the beginning, lest anything like the Slave Trade should be resorted to. Such was the cause of the Orders in Council which prohibited the procuring of labourers from Africa; such was the cause of the complaints made in the House of Lords of those Orders in Council which permitted the Hill Coolies of India to be employed in Guiana, and of the refusal by this House to admit them into another Colony. That was a justiable reason, no doubt, and a just cause to
1316
refuse an increase of labourers by these means in the West Indies; but it was not the less a real grievance to the proprietors in those Colonies; it was not the less a reason why they should equitably demand delay in respect to any scheme to equalize the duties on their produce with those on the produce of foreign nations. But there are reasons connected with the revenue likewise, which I think are sufficient to induce this House not to consent to immediate equalization, but to propose that it should be for some time delayed. Any sudden or abrupt change of duty would no doubt most seriously affect the revenue, not only by causing an interruption in the cultivation of sugar in your own Colonies and in the East Indies, but by causing the markets to remain unsupplied for a considerable time. I therefore, Sir, in what I mean to propose to the House, shall recommend at the present time a large reduction of duty, a complete withdrawal of the present prohibitory duty, and a very slight change, after the first year, from year to year, till the duties are entirely equalized. It was at first thought by those who represent the West India Colonies, that the Government would be disposed to consent to a reduction of the duty upon all foreign sugar to 23 s. 4d., which is the duty of foreign muscovado sugar made by free labour; but, upon considering that proposition, it appeared to us that with a very slight increase of price in the market for foreign sugar in this country, we should entirely lose the benefit both to the consumer and the producer. The prices of foreign sugar, I think, according to the printed Paper laid on the Table of the House on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Lambeth, averaged in the year 1845, for Brazil sugar, brown and yellow, 20 s. 5d., and for West and East India and Mauritius, 32 s. 8d. Now, supposing a duty of 23 s. 4d. to be imposed, we cannot but suppose that the price of the Havannah sugar would rise to 25 s., and you would then have a price of 48 s. 4d., being a price greater than the 32 s. 8d. with the 14 s. duty upon colonial sugar. We should therefore be exposed to the same result which followed the right hon. Baronet's proposition of 28 s. and 23 s. 4d. for foreign free-labour sugar. I shall therefore propose that in the present year, instead of the prohibitory duty of 63 s., and the duty of 23 s. 4d., there shall be on all foreign muscovado sugar a duty of 21 s. per cwt., and I shall propose that that

1317
duty be diminished in the following manner:—duty to July 5, 1847, 21 s. per cwt.; to July 5, 1848, 20 s. per cwt.; to July 5 1849, 18 s. 6d.; to July 5, 1850, 17 s.; to July 5, 1851, 15 s. 6d.; and that from July 5, 1851, a similar duty of 14 s. shall apply to all muscovado sugars. Now, I say nothing here of the propriety or the advantage that might be derived from a still further reduction of the 14 s. duty; considering that this an operation which is to be carried over five years, that in the present state of the revenue (of which I shall have something to say before I conclude), and in the present state of the Session, it would not be right in us on any speculation to ask for any considerable reduction of duty below the reduction made last year. I should say, with respect to the distinction that was made last year of the clayed sugars, it is quite true, and I have shown by the account of sugars entered, that that has not operated on the sugars to which it was proposed to be applied; but at the same time I find in all the Prices Current, and in the returns of the merchants, that with regard to all the Havannah sugars there is the distinction of what is called white sugar, or white clayed sugar, of which the price is 4s., or more, above that of the brown sugar. I have only to state at present that in the schedule which I shall lay on the Table of the House I propose to keep up that distinction in the same manner in which it was made last year. I do so on account of those sugars. Of course, I have not been able to obtain all the information I could wish upon a subject on which the intention of the Government could not be disclosed; and, therefore, with regard to that part of the plan, it may be varied by information subsequently obtained. [Sir R. PEEL: Will that distinction be applied to all clayed sugars?] The Havannah sugar is the cause of our preserving this distinction, but it will be continued as to all clayed sugars. There will be from year to year a similar reduction to that which I have stated on the refined and double refined, and on molasses, in similar proportions; but I need hardly read the table to the House. We have likewise been urged to take some measures with respect to various other subjects on which the West India body think themselves aggrieved. They have stated, that while they think any equalisation of foreign and colonial sugars unjust to them and inconsistent with the policy which Parlia-
1318
ment has hitherto pursued; yet, supposing it to take place, there are claims which they think they are entitled to make to be placed on a footing of equality as regards other matters. The first refers to that subject which I have already mentioned to the House, the subject of immigration. I remember, when I was in the Colonial Office, we had so far relaxed the Orders in Council hitherto made, that I proposed to obtain the sanction of the Queen in Council to an Order permitting negroes to emigrate from Sierra Leone to the West India Islands. Those Orders in Council were very much considered by the Government that followed; various relaxations have been made; and, with respect to other parts of the world, I believe very considerable relaxations of a similar description have been adopted by Mr. Gladstone, the late Secretary for the Colonies. With respect to that subject, there is only one material alteration which we propose to make; it is at present forbidden to make any agreement or contract in Sierra Leone or the British settlements in Africa which shall hold good in the West Indies. We think, upon the whole, that with the present knowledge which the West Indian proprietors have of the conduct of the blacks—with the knowledge of what was stated by Lord Metcalfe, that, in fact, the blacks in the West Indies have much more command over the employers than the employers over them—it is safe to allow these bargains to be made for a limited time: I should say not beyond a single year. But, with regard to another proposal that is made, namely, that this should be the case elsewhere, with regard to emigrants proceeding from the coast of Africa, where we have not possessions, where the British flag does not fly, and especially the Kroo coast, we must say, we do not think it is safe to allow such contracts, or to say that these should be protected from the British cruisers, unless there is some British authority under which the bargain is made. There is another question upon which these parties have laid considerable stress, which refers to the introduction of colonial spirits or rum into this country; they say that rum is not admitted into this country upon equal terms with other spirits. That subject has been referred by us to the consideration of the Excise; and the information that I have obtained upon the subject leads me to this conclusion — that while there is a difference of from 7s. 10 d. to 9s. 4d. a gallon in the excise duties of this

1319
country and the duties upon rum, yet that difference is not to be placed to the account altogether of differential duty. The statement is, that while in the process of distillation the excise duty is at once levied on British spirits which are afterwards subject to leakage and other losses, rum arriving in this country, and taken out of bond, arrives in a state in which it has undergone all those losses; and, therefore, there is not a smaller quantity to sell than has paid duty. We think, however, that there may be some reduction in the duty on rum, and that the differential duty of 1s. 6d. may be reduced to 1s., placing them on terms of greater equality. There is another question with regard to which there is far more difficulty, and upon which I do not feel myself in any way authorized to give satisfaction to the West India body; they complain of the differences that exist in the duties in Scotland and Ireland, while the same duty is still levied upon rum. Any alteration in that instance would, I think, lead to great difficulties in principle, and great difficulties in application It would lead to the question whether you should not admit foreign spirits likewise, subject to the same differences in Scotland and Ireland, which you do in England. It would lead to many questions of difficulty with regard to a difference of duty upon the same article admitted by a customs duty in different parts of the United Kingdom. Upon that subject I shall be ready to hear the argument when it is stated; but I certainly do not feel, in the present instance, that we ought to make any alteration of that kind. There is another demand, likewise made, to which I do not feel myself enabled to agree. It is proposed that molasses should be admitted into our breweries and distilleries. Now, at first, there appears nothing more fair than that proposal. It appears that is only asking that those who wish to consume this article in the breweries and distilleries should have the power to do so, and that the colonial sugar should be admitted as well as the barley of foreign countries into the breweries and distilleries. But in the application of the principle to practice there are various and very considerable difficulties. There is a great difficulty with respect to the exact amount of duty which ought to be imposed upon these sugars, and great difficulty in the practical levying of the duty with the Excise; and, as far as I am informed, I do not feel that I am able to comply with that request. There
1320
is another question, upon which, according to the principles that we have stated, they ask that there should be an abolition of the duties which are now levied in the Colonies. There are certain articles on which the colonists are obliged to pay differential duties in favour of articles the produce of this country as against foreign productions. Now I think it is but fair, when we are endeavouring to carry those principles into effect, that we should allow the colonists the full benefit of them, so that they may be enabled to obtain their provisions and their lumber in the cheapest markets. There may be some articles with respect to which there must be some delay; but we propose, in imitation of an Act passed some few years ago, to introduce a Bill giving to the Queen in Council power to assent to any Acts which may be passed by the Colonies, by which the existing 5 per cent or 7 per cent in favour of this country should be taken away, and the colonists should be enabled to obtain the produce in the cheapest market. In speaking of these subjects some years ago, I said that I thought that the whole system on which this country had gone had been that of a vicious circle; that the manufacturers asked to be protected, and that thereby the farmers and the colonists were not enabled to obtain foreign manufactures; that the farmers again asked to be protected, and that consequently the manufacturers and the colonists were not able to obtain provisions at the cheapest rate; and that the colonist again, in his turn, asked to be protected, and thus the farmers and the manufacturers in this country were not enabled to obtain the produce of the tropics at the cheapest rate. I said, that the whole system hung together; that freedom ought to be infused into every part, and that the circle by which these interests were protected ought to be broken. That has in a great measure been done since I spoke; and I do not think, unless the ground of morality as to slave labour, to which I have before alluded, should be thought sufficient to prevail, that you ought now any longer to keep up in favour of the colonists differential duties which inflict so heavy a tax on this country. Appealing to those who during the course of the present year have been in favour of protection, I do not think that they could give any satisfaction, even to their constituents, by saying that in this instance they would endeavour to keep up these protective duties. It would be well to say—if they

1321
could say so—that plans were introduced for the reduction or abolition of protection to the British farmer, and those plans they had successfully resisted; but, as they cannot say that, I think it would be but a bad consolation to say, "It is quite true that with respect to all those duties which protected the British farmer, and which prevented the foreigner coming into competition with him, we have been unsuccessful in our endeavour to maintain them; but yet we have so contrived that the farmer himself shall be obliged to pay a high price for his colonial produce, and that the labourers whom he employs must still deny themselves that colonial produce, whilst at the same time, with respect to all agricultural products, they are subjected to competition." There is, however, another view of this subject which I beg leave to submit to the House, because it refers to what may be in another year the state of the revenue with respect to the income and expenditure. The right hon. Gentleman opposite, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, made a statement, which no doubt he was perfectly justified in making, of the prospects of the present year; but it was impossible not to perceive that with respect to the future year, in reference to which he was certainly not bound to make an estimate, the prospect afforded was of a far less consolatory description. The right hon. Gentleman estimated the total income of the country for the year 1846–7 at 51,650,000 l. Of that sum the amount of the China money was 700,000 l., and the estimatod permanent income therefore would be, that sum being deducted, 50,950,000 l. The expenditure the right hon. Gentleman estimated at 50,873,546 l. If we take away from that expenditure 200,000 l., which might be of a temporary nature, the expenditure would be reduced to 50,673,546 l.; but then we must add certain expenses which the right hon. Gentleman was not bound to take into his view, as he was only taking certain portions of the year, and apportioning the expenses thereto. The expense of the Irish constabulary was only taken for half the present year, and therefore there must be added the amount which will be due in the next year, viz., 175,000 l. Then there was a deferred estimate for a quarter of the year on account of certain army and ordnance services. It would be necessary to take four quarters in the next year, and this would make a difference of 283,000 l. Another half-year's expenditure for auditors, schoolmasters, and medical officers
1322
of poor law unions, which had been voted for a half-year only in the estimates of 1846–47, would amount to 61,500 l.; a half-year's expense for prosecutions would amount to 60,000 l.; the same for Ireland, 9,000 l.; a half-year's expense for the maintenance of prisons under sentence of felony would amount to 40,000 l.; making, in the whole, 628,500 l. Thus I will state the total future permanent expenditure, according to the estimate of the right hon. Gentleman, at 51,302,040 l., and the permanent income, as estimated by the right hon. Gentleman, at 50,950,000 l., leaving a deficiency for the year 1847–48 of 352,040 l. This is the result, leaving out of the calculation the sum of 200,000 l., which might be a temporary expenditure; but if it were added, the deficiency would be upwards of half a million. Under these circumstances, it does seem expedient, if it can be done fairly, to endeavour to obtain an increase of income for the country, without at the same time augmenting the burdens of the people. The plan which I have proposed, supposing that there would be imported, as the produce of the West Indies, the Mauritius, and the East Indies, 240,000 tons of sugar, would give 3,360,000 l. of revenue, I stated in the course of what I addressed to the House, that it might be expected that 20,000 tons of foreign free-labour sugar would arrive in the course of the present year. With respect to other sugar, we must expect that there will be no very great supply in the present year, owing to the obstacles interposed by the navigation laws. A great part of the supply of foreign sugar, which is at present in warehouse in this country, has been brought in by American ships for the purpose of being sent forward to foreign ports. Therefore, under the navigation laws, that would be inadmissible into this country, even supposing that it were otherwise admissible by law. I think it would be very presumptuous in us if we were merely for this emergency to propose to alter the navigation laws. Any question of that kind ought to be deeply and seriously considered, and ought to be proposed with respect, not to any temporary but to some permanent change of those laws, if such should be thought desirable. The consequence would be, that only a small portion of the foreign sugar now in bond would be admissible under this change of duty; and having taken some pains to inquire on the subject, I find the quantity of the foreign sugar, now warehoused,

1323
which would be at present admissible under this change of the law, estimated at from 6,000 tons to 8,000 tons, or at the most 10,000 tons. I should say that the quantity would be about 8,000 tons. Now, supposing 20,000 tons of free-labour sugar to be admitted, and adding these 10,000 tons of other sugar now in bond, together with 10,000 tons more to be imported, that would make a total of 40,000 tons, which, at a duty of 21 s., would give 840,000 l. The whole revenue to be derived from the sugar of our Colonics, and from foreign sugar, would be 4,200,000 l. The revenue to be derived, according to the plan of the right hon. Gentleman, was 3,474,471 l. Therefore, the increase of revenue under this proposed plan would, in the present year, amount to 725,529 l. It is evident, therefore, that that amount of revenue would at once turn the balance in our favour in the course of the next year, and that we should have some surplus of revenue over expenditure. The plan will, besides, have the great advantage of giving to the people of this country an increased supply of sagar. I have now stated generally what is the plan proposed by Her Majesty's Government with respect to the Sugar Duties; and I should add, that I look to this plan as a plan which, as far as principle is concerned, is to be a permanent settlement of these duties. I shall therefore propose, if these duties should be carried in Committee, to found on them a Bill which should make the Sugar Duties permanent, not leaving the question to be debated yearly with all the uncertainty which belongs to it at present. I feel sure, that, much as the West Indian interest may feel aggrieved by the change which takes away prohibition, yet that the settlemcnt of a question which has been to them a source of so much anxiety—which has been so repeatedly a matter of debate—will be in a great measure a compensation for the change in the law. I do not propose to vary in any respect the constitutional practice of leaving a large, a considerable amount of revenue, dependent on a yearly vote of this House, as hitherto has been the case. I shall therefore propose some other source of revenue, which I will state before these Resolutions are formed into the shape of a Bill, to be yearly income, and for which, previous to the 5th of July, the Minister of the Crown shall every year be obliged to ask the consent of Parliament. I think that it would be unfortunate that the duties on sugar should
1324
be made the annual subject of debate; and, without departing from a constitutional practice, I shall endeavour to find some other duty, which it will be less objectionable to take as an annual vote. I know some persons will say that by the plan now proposed we are again breaking in on our colonial system; that we are destroying that protection which ought to be given to the Colonies; and that we shall be lessening the affection of those Colonies to the mother country. But I own that I consider the time is come when, with respect to this subject, you must adopt an altered, and, as I think, an improved policy. It was the habit of this country, and of other countries, to provide that they should have a monopoly of the commerce and productions of the colonists, and that the colonists should be obliged to take, exclusively, the produce and the manufactures of the mother country. I believe that no country was more rigid and exclusive in that system than Spain. That country had a vast colonial empire, and yet at the end of two centuries and a half after she had acquired that empire, we find Sir R. Walpole stating to this House, on the question of the Spanish trade and galleons from South America and the Spanish West Indies, that the greater part of the goods so to be introduced into Europe would belong, not to merchants of Spain, but those of other countries. Such was the result of an exclusive and rigid system. Impelled by energy and invigorated by the spirit of freedom in commercial transactions, my belief is that the colonists will gain, and not suffer, by this great change in our policy. I believe that the cultivation of sugar itself will be advanced to a greater extent when the colonists know that they must compete in the market of the mother country with the productions of other countries. I believe that they will derive fresh energy from being allowed to seek where they like for the cheapest products of the other countries of the globe; and, Sir, bear in mind that we will not part with this great advantage—that neither in this country shall we ever impose differential duties as against the colonists, nor will the colonists ever impose such duties against us. This is a commerce which will be secure in war as well as in peace—commerce that is not exposed to the danger of conflicting tariffs, but in which custom-house duties are imposed only for the benefit of the whole. The colonists, I think, derive

1325
great advantage from being connected with this country, and from having the benefit of all the skill and the accumulated capital of this country; and this Empire has an immense advantage also in the loyalty, the strength, and the assistance of the colonists. But these colonists must not hereafter exist on the limited and restricted system of former days; that must be acknowledged to be erroneous, and other principles must prevail. I believe that both the mother country and the colonists will flourish all the more for the abolition of useless restrictions, and that after some period of murmuring, perhaps some passing cloud of discontent, we shall acknowledge both in this country and in the magnificent possessions belonging to us, that we have been heretofore mistaken in following the former policy of restriction, and that the affection felt reciprocally will be all the stronger when neither party is subject to any restrictions imposed by the other; when the colonists are neither obliged to submit to restrictions for some supposed benefit to the mother country, and when the mother country is not deprived of the benefit of some of the choicest productions of the globe for the sake of the colonial interest, favoured by her imperial laws. The colonial empire of this country is an empire of which every British statesman is most justly proud, and to which the people of this country attach the highest value. I trust that when this better system has been adopted, we shall see the Colonics increase and flourish; that we shall be proud of them as our creation; that we shall continue to see them in the enjoyment of that liberty which we have given them; and that both they and the mother country may flourish in union for ever. I shall now conclude by proposing a Resolution for the continuance of the present duties on sugar, and by laying on the Table the Resolutions the nature of which I have explained to the Committee. I trust that these Resolutions will be hereafter adopted, and, if they should be, I think the present Ministry, however short may be its existence, will not have administered the affairs of the country without effecting some national advantage. The noble Lord moved the following Resolution:—
"Resolved—That towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, the several Duties now payable on Sugar, be further continued."
MR. GOULBURN: Sir, the proposition of the noble Lord is one of such extreme importance, both commercially and politi-
1326
cally, that I think I shall best consult the fair discussion of the question by forbearing to enter into any debate upon it until I shall have had an opportunity of examining the Resolutions, and rendering myself able to comprehend the details of a system which must necessarily be rather complicated. I shall now confine myself to asking the noble Lord a question with respect to one part of his system upon which I did not fully understand him. The noble Lord stated with respect to the colonial trade, that it was his object by Act of Parliament to empower the several colonial Legislatures to repeal such portions of the discriminating duties at present existing in those Colonies as regarded the produce of foreign countries and the produce of Great Britain, as the Colonies might think it for their advantage to repeal. Now I did not understand the noble Lord, whether it were his intention still further to give extension to the colonial trade by permitting an intercourse in the produce of those Colonies with foreign countries, and for re-importation to those Colonies of the produce of foreign countries in the ships of foreign countries, or whether the trade would be confined to the ships of this country? I think this is an important point, and I should be glad for the noble Lord to have an opportunity of explaining it.
LORD J. RUSSELL: What I propose to do is, to empower Her Majesty (not the Governors of the Colonies) to give Her assent in this country to any Bill passed by the Colonies which would take away those discriminating duties on foreign produce. I do not propose, in any respect, to alter the navigation laws which now exist; I only propose to give that power to Her Majesty in case the Colonies should alter those duties.
LORD G. BENTINCK: I fear, Sir, that in the able and perspicuous statement of my noble Friend two communications alone will be agreeable to the hon. Friends around me—the one that it is the intention of my noble Friend, when he settles the Sugar Duties, to put an end to the vicious system that has lasted for many years, of renewing those duties for one year only; the other, that it is the intention of my noble Friend to facilitate the means of the West Indies in obtaining labourers from other countries. With respect to the Resolution now before the House for the temporary enactment of a measure for the levying of the Sugar Duties, my noble Friend

1327
will have my support and the support of my Friends around me; but with respect to that measure of which he has given us an outline, I fear I cannot promise him the support of those who are acting with me. True to the principles upon which they have acted upon former occasions, my hon. Friends around me will not be disposed either to consent to the admission of slave-grown sugar, or (if high moral grounds do not impose it upon them) to remove from the West India interests the protection which they at present enjoy. My noble Friend has spoken of the colonial system as a vicious circle. My hon. Friends around me differ altogether in opinion from my noble Friend. They are of opinion that so far from being a vicious circle, it is the wisest policy to at once give protection to the East and West Indian interests, and to our manufacturing interests at home. My noble Friend has said that in his opinion, having lost our protection, it will be but bad consolation to the agricultural interest, which we represent, that we should now refuse it the opportunity of obtaining cheap sugar. I can tell my noble Friend that it will be no consolation to the agricultural interest now to be avenged upon the East and West India interests for that protection of which they themselves have been mainly deprived. True to the principles of protection, my Friends around me are determined to support the East and West India interests. They are resolved to support British capital wherever they find it invested. A statement has been made that there is a great fear with respect to the supply of sugar. But I think my noble Friend has understated the quantity of sugar that may be expected to be derived in the sugar year of 1846–7, from the East Indies and the Mauritius. He stated the amount of sugar to be expected from the Mauritius at no more than 50,000 tons. I believe, from the best information I can obtain, that 60,000 tons will be the amount of produce we may expect from that quarter. My noble Friend has also stated the produce of the East Indies at no more than 80,000 tons. I believe there is every reason to expect that the produce of the year to come, 1846–7, will be 100,000 tons from Bengal alone, exclusive of the sugar expected from Madras. I have taken some pains to make inquiry upon these points, and such I have learned will be the results of the crop of the present year. With regard to Madras there is good ground for the expectation; for whilst the exportation
1328
from Madras during the first three months of last year had not exceeded 600 tons, the exportation for the first three months of the present year amounted to 3,500 tons, or more than five times the produce of last year. I believe, then, there is every reason to expect that 15,000 tons will be imported from Madras alone. If this be the case, the defalcation from the drought in the West Indies will be made up for by the greater produce of the East Indies. My noble Friend will call to mind the enormous increase of produce in the East Indies under a system of protection during the last ten years. He ought not to be sceptical on this point. It was in the year 1836–7 the differential duty was reduced and rendered equal between West and East India sugar. In that year the quantity of sugar, the produce of the East Indies, imported into this country, amounted to between 13,000 and 14,000 tons. Since then, ten years of protection have so far encouraged the growth, that the amount, as I have already stated, to be expected in the course of the year from Bengal will reach 100,000 tons. I believe, therefore, that in the estimate which my noble Friend has given to the House, of the quantity of sugar to be imported from the East Indies, he has far understated the probability of the case. Upon these grounds then, not wishing on the present occasion to enter upon further discussion, but reserving myself for a future occasion, I beg leave to intimate that it is my intention, when my noble Friend shall introduce his Resolution for the permanent settlement of the Sugar guestion, upon the basis of which he has qiven an intimation to-night to the House, to propose an Amendment to that Resolution.
MR. GRANTLEY BERKELEYtrusted that in the observations he would address to the House when he alluded to that part of the West Indies with which he was intimately connected, it would be understood that what he stated was the result of practical experience. It appeared, then, that they were going to have free labour thrown over. In a petition which had been presented that night from the Tower Hamlets, it was stated that there was not a sufficient supply of sugar for this country; and then they were asked—where was the great supply to be had from? He maintained that in the first place they should look for supply to their own Colonies, and that no hon. Member had a right to say to the House and the country, that there was not

1329
a sufficient supply of sugar from the Colonies for home consumption until they had a fair opportunity of sending the produce they could raise, if they had a sufficiency of labour at their disposal. With respect to the Colony with which he was connected—viz., Berbice, if they took away protection, while there existed the present inability to obtain free labour, he must say they could not enter into competition with other sugar-producing countries; and he could assure the House that that Colony of Berbice was at present in a complete state of disorganization. There were proprietors in that Colony at the present moment in an absolute state of starvation, not because they had not a most fertile soil—not because they were not anxious to pay for labour, if they could get it; but simply because they could not obtain a single hand to work upon their estates. Under those circumstances, his noble Friend should give the subject great consideration before he proceeded further. Such a state of things could not last long, but must speedily end in the ruin of the Colony, if not remedied. Then, if an absentee proprietor forwarded the most humble petition to the Governor of the Colony, he did not meet with the slightest consideration. With the permission of the House, he would read a letter which he had received, in reply to a petition that he had sent to the Governor, and which in its tone resembled more an emanation from the Celestial Empire than anything else. It was as follows:—
"Government-house, Demerara.
"Sir—I am desired by Governor Light to say, that he has received your letter of the 15th of May, respecting the management of your plantations, in your revocation of authority from your late agent, and your appointment of Mr. Read in his place, together with other particulars connected with the management of your property in that Colony. His Excellency is quite at a loss to conceive why you should have thought it necessary so unceremoniously to bring these private affairs under his notice, especially as he has not the honour of any personal acquaintance with you. If you have been induced to do so under a supposition that his Excellency's position, as Governor of Guiana, imposes upon him the superintendence of landed estates, you are under a misapprehension."
The hon. Gentleman having commented on the inconvenience arising from the colonists being subjected to Dutch law, concluded by observing that he could not support the proposition of the Government unless they gave the subject of the supply of free labour greater consideration; and that it was impossible for the colonists otherwise to
1330
consider the plan of the Government of utility either to themselves or to the mother country.
MR. MOFFATTIn answer to MR. MOFFATT,
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERstated, that he apprehended the first question of the hon. Gentleman was, whether it were proposed to maintain the present differential duty upon clayed sugar and sugar equal to clayed? He did not know whether hon. Gentlemen remembered that about two years ago, when that duty had been reduced, he had stated that he had no objection to the duty on principle, but that he believed it would be impracticable in operation; and certainly the result of a return which he had moved for at the end of last year, stating the quantity of sugar admitted as white and clayed sugar duties, did show that the duty was nugatory in effect. At the same time it was a question attended with a good deal of difficulty, which had not been diminished but rather increased by the introduction of Havannah sugar. He had, therefore, retained that duty in the Resolutions before the House; but the Government were perfectly ready to receive any information that could be laid before them, as to whether it might be necessary to retain or dispense with that duty. They would take further time to consider as to what they would determine finally to adopt. The next question referred to the duty on refined sugar. There could be no doubt as to the maintenance of that duty; and he proposed to go further, and add words which he did not believe would extend the practice of the Resolution, but would make the intention of it more clear. The words he would add were "other refined sugars, or sugars by any other process rendered equal thereto." That distinction would be still essential with respect to Havannah sugars. With regard to the third question, the duty would vary from year to year, taking muscovado sugar as the basis. Every other duty would be fixed by a rule-of-three sum according to that basis, and the duty for the first year would be 28 s. upon refined sugar, 24 s. upon clayed; 21 s. upon muscovado; and 7s. 10 d. upon molasses. With respect to sugar-candy, he did not think there would be much objection to putting it on the same footing as double-refined sugar. The Resolutions containing all the duties would be introduced, as his noble Friend had given notice, on Friday next.
MR. P. M. STEWARTwas happy to find that the interests of the Colonies were

1331
not to be disturbed every year, but were now to be fixed by a final settlement. There were two points, however, touched upon by his noble Friend which might throw great obstacles in the way of the final settlement of the question, and to which he wished to direct attention. They were to have free-trade principles introduced with regard to sugar; but rum, the staple produce of the Colonies, was, it appeared, to remain under the old system, and to be treated rather as a foreign than as a colonial spirit. His noble Friend had said that upon reference to the Excise, he found the difficulties that existed and were acknowledged on the subject, were such as to be almost irremovable; but he (Mr. Stewart) begged leave to remark that there was no case upon record of a reference to the Excise of this country, for the purpose of simplifying and regulating the duties of that office, ever having been successful; and, therefore, he called his noble Friend's attention to the matter, in order to examine the question more thoroughly than he could have done in the short time that had elapsed since he had taken office, in the hope that he would come to a different conclusion. His noble Friend had said that the discriminating duty might be reduced to 1s. But why not extend the same principle to Ireland and Scotland as well as to England? The other point to which he wished to direct his noble Friend's attention was the exclusion of our colonial produce from the breweries and distilleries of this country, which resulted from maintaining a remnant of the old system of Corn Laws. This was, he thought, a most important point for consideration in the settlement of this question; and he hoped his noble Friend and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of leaving it to be dealt with by the Excise, would give it their own careful attention. Let them apply one principle to the colonial interests, and set this question at rest.
MR. BERNALthought it a great pity, if the Resolutions were to stand for discussion on Friday, that hon. Members should enter into a debate at this particular moment, when they must, like his hon. Friend, broach a subject in so limited a way that they could not do it justice. He must say, however, with respect to the use of sugar in breweries, that he never could obtain any satisfactory elucidation of the law with respect to it. He was told that there was no restriction upon the use of sugar
1332
in breweries; but he had not been able to obtain any explanation of how the matter really stood. The Chancellor of the Exchequer must have had his attention directed to this subject; and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would find great difficulty in obtaining any satisfactory solution of the question, whether sugar could or could not be so used. The brewers declared that it required no statute for the admission of sugar and molasses into their breweries; but he knew, with respect to distilleries, that an alteration of the law was required before they could be admitted; and he thought it would be wise in the Government not to allow the present opportunity for a satisfactory arrangement to slip. Till they saw the Resolutions in print, they could not fairly enter upon the discussion, and he would therefore abstain from saying anything more now.
MR. BARKLYexpressed his regret that the noble Lord had not felt himself in a position, whilst he proposed the admission of slave-grown sugar, to make that admission a little more palatable to those who had been well nigh ruined by the attempts to suppress slavery. When the noble Lord was about to apply the principle of free trade to the West Indian Colonies, he ought to have been better prepared with a reason for excluding the people of this country from using the products of the West Indies for any purposes; and with respect to the keeping up the differential duties of from 50 to 300 per cent on rum, he must ask if the noble Lord would give the Papers on which he had founded his opinions?
MR. EWARTthought it was of the utmost importance to have an early and a permanent settlement of this question; it was most desirable for the commercial as well as the colonial interests; but he differed from the hon. Member for Weymouth, for he thought this the proper time to express a general opinion upon the proposal of the Government, though not upon the details. He should have been glad if the time for the final settlement had been limited to three years, and he should have deemed it still better if there had been no interval; for when they had determined to settle any question, a settlement finally and without delay was the best policy: and the noble Lord thought it would have been best with corn, and so it would have been with sugar. Agan, as far as the general principles of free trade went, he did not see why molasses should not be

1333
admitted for all uses; and he questioned whether the reduction of 6d. in the duty on rum was not too small to work well. For himself, he hoped to see the time when the duty on all sugar would be reduced from 14 s. to 10 s., and he believed that reduction would be one of the greatest blessings to the country. He and others had fought this question for years: they began with seeking an equalization of duties on East and West Indian sugars; afterwards they sought for the admission of colonial and foreign sugars on an equal footing; he believed that this would be better for the Colonies themselves, and that they need not wait for a supply of free labour before they admitted competition, since it was by the free and unlimited application of British labour, British skill, and British capital, that the Colonies must be raised.
MR. T. BARINGsaid, it was unfortunate that the Government had not sufficient information to guide them as to whether they would continue the differential duties between refined clayed sugars, or sugars equal to refined clayed, as the market would remain in a state of suspense till the question was settled by the Government.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that what was refined, or equal to refined sugar, it was intended should pay the same duty under any circumstances; and he had introduced words into the Resolution to meet that case. As to what had fallen from his hon. Friend (Mr. P. Stewart) as to other measures for the admission of West Indian produce, he must say, that the question of the free introduction of molasses and sugar into breweries and distilleries was not quite so simple as he thought: on account of its probable interference with the malt duty the proposal could not be lightly entertained. Her Majesty's Government were prepared to give a fair and impartial consideration to the proposal if it could be carried out without interference with other interests and duties. In the same way the equalization of the duties on rum and other spirits in Scotland and Ireland was not so simple as his hon. Friend supposed. It was something perfectly new to introduce different import duties in different parts of the United Kingdom; the only exception was with respect to spirits comiug from the Channel Islands; and that exception was of no importance, as no spirits had been introduced. There was
1334
not the least doubt that it was an anomalous state of things to have a different rate of excise duties in different portions of the kingdom; but that distinction was adopted solely because it was calculated to put down illicit distillation. It had answered this purpose; but it was in other respects indefensible; and he was not prepared to give any assurance that the Government would carry this anomaly any further. The differential duty upon rum was not imposed for the purpose of protection; it was done to place rum and British spirits upon a precise equality. The duty on British spirits was 7s. 10 d. and on rum 9s. 4d., making a difference of 1s. 6d. Those duties were settled, because it was supposed that they brought the consumption to equal terms, and to balance the disadvantages to British spirits. He admitted that rum and British spirits ought to stand upon precisely the same footing; and on that principle the existing differential duties were supposed to admit them. After inquiry, however, he had arrived at the conclusion that the differential duty of 1s. 6d. was too high; and he was inclined to believe, according to his present information, that a duty of 1s. would bring them into consumption on equal terms; and he had come to the conclusion that the reduction of one-third of the difference would, under the circumstancs, be proper; but, if the West India interests could show that this reduction was not fair, he would reconsider the question; for the only object of the Government was to put both on an equal footing.
MR. H. J. BAILLIEsaid, it was unusual, and he believed unprecedented, for a Government to bring in a measure of such great importance at this late period of the Session. The question related to three important subjects—to slavery, to finance, and to the Colonies; and the House was about to deal with it in the beginning of August, when it was perfectly notorious that many Members had left London, and when it would be impossible to obtain a fair expression of the feelings of Parliament. If the noble Lord had proposed the renewal of the present duties for one year, he would not have met with opposition from any party.
MR. HUME, so far from agreeing with the hon. Member, thought that the Government ought to have full credit given to it for bringing forward a plan for the settlement of the Sugar Duties at once and finally. He could not but consider it

1335
a great advantage to the interests of the consumers and of the producers that the duties, which, on being annually voted, had produced so much stagnation and uncertainty, should be settled; for those who produced sugar would not apply their capital when they did not know what the duties would be in the following year. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman did not know that in consequence of the high prices a great quantity of sugar had been brought to this country; but that a loss incurred upon this sugar had prevented the increase of produce until the matter of these duties was settled. For the purpose of settling the matter, the House should sit, if necessary, beyond the usual period. He was glad to find the facility to be given to the introduction of labour, which was the one thing necessary to procure capital to be employed; but he wanted to impress upon the noble Lord the expediency of putting an end to the differential duty, and to make the duty the same in Scotland and Ireland as in England. In Scotland the duty on spirits was 3s. 10 d., and the duty on rum, 9s. 4d., was perfectly anomalous. Then, as to the prohibition of the use of sugar and molasses in breweries and distilleries, it was a monstrous absurdity to continue the present system; when sugar had once paid the duty, every individual ought to be allowed to apply it in any way he pleased. He thought it would be of advantage to the House and to the Government, if any one had any objections to any part of the scheme, that he should state them at once. The noble Lord (Lord G. Bentinck) hrd objected to the plan on account of the slave question, which he thought had been settled. He highly approved of the course the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had taken. He only feared it would occasion some loss of revenue; but if this were not the case, there could be no objection to it. He hoped to see the time when the duty on all sugar would be less than 10 s. If this change were not effected too suddenly, it could be made without loss to the revenue. Sudden changes only benefited the foreigner; but when they were made gradually, the consumer got the benefit, as he ought to have in every case of reduction. He considered that, after corn, this was the most important subject that could engage the attention of the Legislature; and he trusted that the same Session would witness the settlement of both questions.
MR. HENLEYsaid, the argument of
1336
the noble Lord (J. Russell) seemed to be that, because they did wrong in admitting one article of slave produce, they were justified in admitting others. It would appear from this that they were to have free trade in morals as well as in everything else.
MR. RICARDOsaid, he could not agree with the hon. Member for Montrose; and his hon. Friend's doctrine, which was quite new to come from such a quarter, surprised him much. He believed that the worst part of the Corn Law Repeal Bill was the postponement for three years of the final settlement of the duties. He thought the noble Lord had not made out a case, either in a financial or colonial point of view, for delay in equalising the duties on foreign and colonial sugar; and he hoped, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed himself open to conviction on many points, he would be open to conviction on this point also, and cause the duties to be made equal at an earlier period.
MR. WAKLEYobserved, that the noble Lord on the cross benches expressed great satisfaction at the portion of the plan which permitted the unlimited introduction of free labour into the West Indies; and yet the noble Lord dwelt with a most energetic tone upon his adherence to the principle of protection, stating that British capital should be supported. But what was the fact: the introduction of crowds of labourers into those Colonies would swamp the West India labourers, at present living in comfort; and the enormous importation of these men would revive slavery there in its worst form. The House should recollect the case of the Hill Coolies, and pause before they sanctioned that part of the scheme. He (Mr. Wakley) trusted that the noble Lord would, at all events, see if an unlimited supply of labourers was to be permitted, that the Slave Trade should not be again revived—that merciless, cruel, and cold-blooded speculators should not be allowed to prey upon human life—and that those wretched creatures who were imported into the West Indies should have the same degree of protection accorded to them as the Hill Coolies.
SIR R. H. INGLISobserved, that the acuteness of the hon. Member for Finsbury seemed for once to fail him: the House had decided nothing, not even that the Resolution should be adopted, up to that moment; though the hon. Member had assumed its sanction to the importation

1337
of unlimited labour. The hon. Member, however, had no reason to fear anything on the subject of the revival of slavery; for three hon. Members had risen to protest against it, and he (Sir R. H. Inglis) would be ready to do so when occasion should arise.
VISCOUNT SANDONwas understood to suggest that those statements which referred to colonial protection had better be deferred to another Session. The effect of admitting slave-grown sugar directly to the English market would be to act indirectly upon the whole market for foreign sugar, and raise the price, perhaps as much as 25 per cent. With reference to the observations of the hon. Member for Finsbury respecting the condition of the West India labourers, he thought that the House was bound to attend to the condition of the East Indian labourers also, and not to make an exception of one in favour of the other.
MR. BORTHWICKsaid, if he opposed any part of the scheme of the noble Lord, it should most certainly not be that part of it which abolished the distinction between free and slave-grown sugar.
LORD J. RUSSELL, in explanation, stated Her Majesty's Government were not prepared to admit applicants for labour from the coasts of Africa, where there was not a British settlement, for fear that anything approaching slavery should take place. Precautions would also be taken to secure the principle of free and voluntary emigration in all other cases. With respect to the remark of the noble Lord the Member for Liverpool, as to the probable rise in foreign sugar, no doubt there would be a rise; but then it would only be, according to his opinion, temporary.
Resolution agreed to.
House resumed Resolution to be reported.

NAVAL COURTS-MARTIAL AND FLOGGING SAILORS.
On the Motion that the Order of the Day be read for a Committee of Supply,
MR. W. WILLIAMSrose to call the attention of the House to the practice of flogging sailors, and to the manner in which courts-martial were constituted in the British navy. The severity of our criminal code had been very greatly ameliorated: the punishment of death, which was formerly inflicted for numerous crimes, was now imposed only in a few cases. He must point out one or two cases of ma-
1338
terial difference in the punishment for the same offence, as inflicted by the criminal law, and as enforced by the regulations of the navy. Stealing was now frequently punished by short imprisonment. The sailor was liable to be hanged for this offence. Many Chartists had been punished, of late years, by a three months' imprisonment for seditious words. A sailor, for the like offence, would be condemned to death. And let it be borne in mind how differently circumstanced were the two men. A sailor might have been seized by a pressgang, dragged from his home like a criminal, have all his prospects blasted, and under feelings of irritation from such treatment, might utter words of complaint which might be construed into seditious language. Such a punishment ought not to be allowed to remain on the Statute-book for another day. And under whose authority were such punishments inflicted by courts-martial, consisting of commanders and post captains, without any appeal from their judgment? The civilian might appeal for mercy to the Crown; but the sailor had no appeal. In the army there was protection against any violence or injustice. The punishment of flogging could not be inflicted without the sanction of a court-martial. The sailor was flogged at the sole will of the captain. In his opinion the time was come for according to the sailor the same protection as that vouchsafed to the soldier or to the person in civil life. All these severities were inflicted on men who, by an Act of George II., were declared, "under the providence of God, to constitute the wealth, safety, and strength of the country." By the Act he had referred to, a power was given to the Admiralty to make orders and regulations for the navy; and it was under this power that the flogging system was carried out. Under one of the sections of the Act it was declared that all punishments not mentioned in the Act, should be inflicted on sailors according to the practice of the navy; but it was in the orders and regulations he had referred to, that we must look for the establishment of the practice of flogging, and for the definition of the power under which it could be exercised. He admitted there had recently been instituted regulations which were a great improvement on those that preceded them. Previously, any commander of a ship could flog his men at his own will and pleasure: they could tie a man up for a trivial offence, and order

1339
the infliction of as many lashes upon him as they thought fit—a power, he conceived, that reflected no great credit on those that conferred it. But what was the amount of protection now afforded to the sailor under the new regulations against this most degrading species of torture—a torture that violated the best feelings of humanity, and that had broken the hearts and spirits of many of the bravest men this country had produced? Nay, it had done still worse; it had driven those gallant spirits who had fought and bled for their country into the service of the foe; and those very men were recorded in the history of the country as having humbled her flag, which no other Power had been able to do. He would ask the gallant Admiral (Sir George Cockburn) connected with the Admiralty to refer to the American war; and in support of what he now stated, he would undertake to authenticate a great number of instances in which the system of flogging had produced the consequences he had noticed. What were the present regulations about flogging? It limited the number of lashes to forty-eight; but he had been told by a naval officer who had seen as much service as any hon. and gallant Member in that House, and by others who had encountered the "battle and the breeze" in all their most imposing character, that forty-eight lashes inflicted in the navy were equal to, at the lowest estimate, 200 lashes on the soldier. Common sense pointed out that this must be so. The soldier was flogged with a cat-o'-nine-tails composed of small twine, and the punishment was inflicted by a drummer boy. In the navy, the cat with which the sailor was flogged was made of thick cord, and it was applied by some brawny stalwart boatswain's mate, perhaps the strongest man in the ship. The commander stood by at the time of punishment to see that the man laid on with sufficient severity, though it made the blood flow from every pore. Not content with this, commanders—he had been told the circumstance by naval officers, and would prove the fact before a Committee—had ordered the mate to be changed between every dozen or eighteen lashes, that the flogging might be administered throughout with sufficient strength. It was not so in the army. There was another point: you could never see the punishment inflicted in the navy: you could hear the cries of the soldier, but not those of the sailor flogged on board ship. Now,
1340
under what circumstances did the commanding officer acquire power to flog? He acquired it in cases when complaint was made against a sailor. The officer in command was required by the Admiralty order to make an investigation into the complaint. The officer sat as judge; he decided on the merits of the complaint; and then, as it might be, he ordered the man to receive thirty-six or forty-eight lashes. The officer was called on to address a warrant to himself, giving himself power to inflict the punishment. Now, what was stated in the warrant was the name of the man, the length of his service, and the offence. But should the captain see the alleged offence committed, then he became judge, jury, witness, and executioner. He meant of course executioner of his own sentence. Naval Gentlemen in that House appeared to indulge in great merriment over this matter; but he recommended them to recollect that military men had taken up the subject of punishment in the army; and they deserved the thanks of the country for the reform they had effected. And he would tell hon. Gentlemen belonging to the navy that the public would very soon take up the subject of punishment in the navy, and would protect the unfortunate sailors who were tried and tortured without either jury or justice. He would remind the House how much more necessary it was to protect the sailor, who was isolated on board his ship, and had not the same securities against tyranny as the soldier. The soldier before being punished must be brought before a court-martial. The sanction of the Commander in Chief, if in England, or if in the Colonies the sanction of the Governor or Commanding Officer, was required before punishment could be inflicted. Flogging on board ship was carried on without any such salutary protection. If a sailor before the mast was found guilty of a fault or an error, magnified into a crime, he was punished without the formality of a court-martial. The sailor was condemned, perhaps in excessively hot weather, to traverse up and down the rigging, or to wear a wooden collar day and night, perhaps for a month; or he was possibly ordered to undergo the more degrading torture of the brutal lash. He could state a good deal more; but he thought he had given a pretty correct description of what usually took place on these occasions. He believed that every man who was acquainted with naval affairs must

1341
know that almost every mutiny that had taken place in the navy was in consequence of the system of flogging which was practised in that branch of the public service. He knew there were other causes for the mutiny of the Nore, but this was one of them. He wished to ask whether that system was necessary for maintaining the discipline of the navy? The general opinion of the captains was, he believed, that discipline could not be maintained without flogging; but many of the lieutenants, who attended more to the duties of ships of war, took a totally different view of the question; and their opinions on such a question were highly valuable. He maintained, that the punishment of flogging ought not, at all events, to be resorted to without a court-martial was held in the first instance; and as good materials were to be found in a ship of war to constitute a tribunal of that sort as there were in regiments of the army. What better court could be formed than assembling together the captain, the officer of marines, the first lieutenant, the master, and the oldest mate of a ship? Such a change in the system would give confidence to our sailors, because they would feel that something like justice would be done to them. Who were the men who usually flogged in the navy? Were they brave and gallant men who had won victories for us? No; they were a class of persons called martinets, many of them young officers, who knew not the character and often the duties of an old sailor. This, in itself, was a reason why such arbitrary powers should not be intrusted to individuals, no matter how high their rank might be. It was well known that Nelson abhorred flogging, and that he only allowed it on board his ship in extreme cases. Another great man—Napoleon—abolished the system in France, both in the army and the navy of that country; and his plan had been continued with advantage up to the present day. Flogging was also abolished in the Prussian army. Having, then, such high authorities on the subject, it might fairly be thought that the necessity of continuing the present system of corporal punishment was not so imperative as was represented. He knew that some necessity existed for severe punishments in order to preserve discipline; but the power to inflict them ought to be used only after grave deliberation, and then as sparingly as possible. In the American navy, men were never flogged without
1342
having been tried and sentenced by a court-martial; and there was not to be found in any service a more able set of men than in the service of America. He had mentioned before that the captains in the navy were, generally speaking, of opinion that flogging was necessary in order to preserve discipline; but the captains were the parties by whom offending sailors were judged. Sir S. Romilly, in his efforts to reform our criminal code, found his strongest opponents in the Judges of the land, not because they did not dislike the office of inflicting capital punishment, but because they conscientiously believed society could not be held together without it. In the same way, the captains were opposed to the abolition of flogging, because they really believed it essential to the preservation of discipline. Well, Sir S. Romilly succeeded in disproving the predictions of the Judges; and the milder punishments which he and the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government substituted for that of death were much more effectual in the prevention of crime. In America, where flogging was never inflicted without court-martial, the consequence was that our best men manned the American navy. By the navy list of the United States, it appeared, that of 6,500 men, but 900 were Americans, and these were chiefly petty officers. When he saw British sailors shunning the service of their country, he wished to alter such a state of things. He wanted to make the service attractive; and if the wages of the sailor were not sufficient, he was not the man to object to making them so. He thought the most economical course they could take was to attach the sailor to the British flag; and he was sure, if justly treated, they would fight under no other flag. Why were not the articles of war in the navy subjected to the same annual revision as those for the army? While officers of the army in that House were directing their efforts to the amelioration of their branch of the service, he did not find that the officers of the navy, though very ready for the defence of their class, were directing their attention to the amelioration of the condition of the sailor. The Legislature was improving the condition of the soldier. They provided the soldier with education: why did they not do the same for the sailor? He hoped, however, that the present Government would direct their efforts to this subject; and that this would be the last occasion on which he

1343
should have to bring it before the attention of the House.
MR. WARDhoped his hon. Friend, who had given him much pleasure by the tone of his remarks, would recollect that the present Board of Admiralty had been only constructed on Monday last. The question to which he more particularly referred had not yet come before them; but he hoped that the question of naval punishments would be brought under their consideration. It had been found impossible to restrict the use of summary punishment altogether. Taking the admission of the hon. Member, that there must be a system of punishment where a large number of men were brought together in one vessel, it was clear that the good sense of the hon. Member would tell him that summary punishment must exist. As for himself, he must say that a greater curse to the service never existed than the old system of arbitrary punishments. But, if the hon. Member would look into the question as it stood, he would find that the improvement in the naval service had kept pace with that in the civil and other departments of the State. He found from a return which had been made the other day by his direction, that in 1839, when there were 34,000 men in our naval service, there had been 2,000 punishments; but that in 1845, when the establishment consisted of 40,000, there had been only 1,200 causes of punishment. He was prepared to state that the greatest disposition existed at the Board of Admiralty to check the system of arbitrary punishment, and that it equally prevailed among the admirals of the various stations. He had seen instructions which had been recently issued by Admiral Parker in the Mediterranean, showing the strongest inclination on his part in the same direction; and he could state that there was every intention at the Board of Admiralty to regard excessive punishments on board of any ship as discreditable to the officers in command. In the principle laid down by the hon. Member for Coventry, as to any ill-judged parsimony in our naval service, he entirely agreed. There would be large sums necessarily required for various experiments in this department; and he was sure the hon. Member would offer no opposition to their progress from any feeling of false economy. A return of punishments in ships for any one year must be fallacious, for it was evident that an officer taking command of a crew collected at haphazard, might be obliged to
1344
use frequent punishments in the course of the first year, to bring them into proper discipline, which would be altogether unnecessary on subsequent occasions. In conclusion, he could only repeat, that the feeling of the board was to regard excessive punishments on Board any vessel as discreditable to the officer in command.
MR. HUMEwished to ask if there was any intention of proposing the reconsideration of the articles of war. He had frequently brought the question before the House; and on the last occasion the articles had been condemned by every one in the House, including the naval officers. They ought to do everything in their power to draw our men from abroad to enter their own service; and though there had been, as he admitted, an enormous amelioration in the condition of the navy of late years, yet he hoped the Admiralty would see how much further they could go, and how far they could modify the system in accordance with the spirit of the age. He thought there ought to be returns of the punishments of the various ships in the service. In some they would find that one-half or perhaps three-fourths of the crew had been flogged, while in another they would see that not one had been subjected to such punishment. Surely this ought to be remedied. No service could be better taken care of than our navy, as regarded diet, clothing, and cleanliness. It was evident, then, there must be some cause to keep the men away from it. He thought a court-martial of three officers would be an improvement on the present system of arbitrary punishment, and might produce similar good effects to the allowance of a certain time before punishment was inflicted, which had been made in consequence of speeches in that House. He wished the returns of punishments would be laid before the House; and he would venture to say if they were made, that nine out of ten of these martinets would be found not to be their best naval officers. If there were but a few officers who followed this system, let them at least be known to the public.
SIR G. COCKBURNsaid, that as no hon. Member connected with the Admiralty had got up to answer the question and remarks of the hon. Member who had just spoken, he felt it his duty to do so. When the hon. Member for Coventry said there was no law for the infliction of summary punishment, he was mistaken. There was a decision of Lord Stowell on this point, in the case of a merchantman,

1345
in which the learned judge laid it down that the captain had such powers.
MR. WILLIAMSexplained that he had not said there was no law on the subject, as he knew that the Act of George II. gave full power to the Admiralty to make certain regulations to which the force of law was thereby given.
SIR G. COCKBURN: Lord Stowell had declared the power ought to be given to the captain of a merchantman, as it was necessary for the safety of his ship; and surely there was no one in that House or out of it who would not wish to see the captain of a man of war possessed of at least equal authority. In extreme cases the discretionary punishment was at present limited to forty-eight lashes; and in the instance in which Lord Stowell gave judgment, the captain gave thirty-six lashes, after a long confinement. He would read a recent minute issued by the Board of Admiralty, which would be a sufficient guarantee that no great punishment could be inflicted without proper responsibility. The hon. and gallant Member read the document, which contained a great number of restrictive regulations prescribing the particulars to be observed in the returns of the causes of the punishment so inflicted, and the evidence on which it had been adjudged. With respect to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Montrose, he could tell him that there would be a great increase of punishments if it were acted upon, and naval courts-martial appointed in all cases that seemed to inquire its infliction. He believed it was the wish of every captain to do his best to prevent punishments in his own ship, and that they often checked the complaints of their officers when displeased with their men. The sailor lookod up to the captain as his father and protector, and regarded him as his best friend. He was very happy to hear from the hon. Member that our men were going into the merchant service, for he knew from experience that they would soon be glad to return to the navy, and not to leave it in a hurry. When there seemed a probability of war with America some time ago, the English sailors on board the American vessels all left them—more particularly in the case of the Chesapeake, when 200 or 300 men immediately quitted her and came over to England. It had been admitted much had been done by the late Admiralty to improve the service, and he hoped that the same spirit would be exercised by their successors.
SIR C. NAPIERwas prepared to go with the hon. Member for Coventry as far as his remarks respecting the difficulty of getting men for our ships were concerned. He knew ships to have lain at Spithead from one to eight months before they could get men, and would venture to say that if we wanted to man a few ships of the line at present, we should have to wait five or six months before we could do so. The men in the merchant service had a greater horror of the navy than ever they had, and it was absolutely necessary to take some steps to do away with it. As to the articles of war, he quite agreed with the hon. Member for Montrose. They were the most absurd, ridiculous, and bloody articles that ever belonged to any service in any country, and he hoped the Admiralty would take them under their consideration.
ADMIRAL DUNDASsaid he had only been one week a Lord of the Admiralty, but he could venture to assert that it would be impossible to carry on the business of the navy without the power of summary punishment. He thought, however, it would be their most prominent duty to consider the question, and promised it should receive every attention from the Board to which he belonged.
CAPTAIN PECHELLhoped the Admiralty would scrutinise the various quarterly reports of the captains in commission, and reward their services with an eye to the proportion of punishments on board their several ships. A great improvement had taken place in the discipline of the service, in consequence of the observations in that House. He hoped that improvement would be continued, and that they would no longer see men punished on the spot. He deprecated the idea of appointing courts-martial for the punishment of petty offences. Half the men in the ship might be under confinement at the same time, and the places to which they would be consigned were of the most disagreeable character.
MR. TRELAWNYsaid, he could not understand why there should be a difference in the discipline of the army and navy in this particular, and that the right of trial by court-martial allowed in the former should not be permitted in the navy. It appeared to him that the reason why corporal punishment was so necessary in the navy was in the fact of the men being paid too low. He thought that they should get rid of the system of pressing men into the service, and place them un-

1347
der sufficient pay, before they could have the men contented with their lot. He would like to know whether the discipline of the navy in France was worse than in this country. If he were well informed there was no flogging in the French navy, no more than in their army; and yet he believed their discipline was remarkably good. He trusted the Ministry would at once mitigate the existing system of punishment in the British service.
VISCOUNT INGESTREsaid, he could not compliment the hon. Gentleman on the temper in which he had brought forward his Motion. He denied that there was any class of Her Majesty's subjects more contented than those who had the honour of serving in the navy. Unless the power of apportioning punishment rested with the commanding officers of ships, great difficulty and inconvenience would arise in maintaining discipline; and he believed, that if the power of awarding corporal punishment were done away with, there would be great danger of the discipline of the navy being subverted. He recollected an instance that came within his own knowledge of a vessel in which flogging was not practised, when all the well-conducted hands on board requested that the punishment might be inflicted on those who deserved it.

TRANSPORTATION TO VAN DIEMEN'S LAND.
Order of the Day read. On the Question that the Speaker do leave the chair,
MR. EWARTbrought forward the Motion of which he had given notice, that he would, on going into Committee of Supply, move that—
"It is expedient that the practice of making Van Diemen's Land a general receptacle for Convicts should cease."
It was his opinion that transportation should be discontinued as a punishment, and be maintained only as a supplement to the previous punishment of imprisonment. He had at the commencement of the Session presented a petition from a number of the free settlers in Van Diemen's Land, praying that transportation to that Colony might be put an end to; but, owing to the difficulties which always lay in the way of a private Member of the House, he had been unable to bring the subject formally before the House, as he had intended, until the present occasion. In 1830, the free population in Van Diemen's Land was as three to one in proportion to the
1348
convicts; but at present the latter numbered 34,000, while the free Colonists were under 30,000. In consequence of this enormous amount of vicious and immoral persons, families felt themselves not safe either in or out of doors, and the amount of crime and immorality in the Colony was most painful to contemplate. He had a letter in his hand which he had received from a Missionary settled there, describing in the strongest terms his horror at the condition of the country; but he would not delay the House by reading it at length. He had also the testimony of the Lieutenant Governor of the island to the same effect, as even he admitted that such was the amount of criminals in the country, that it was almost impossible to employ them. But it might be asked, what course would he adopt in lieu of the present system? It appeared to him, that there was a course which might advantageously be taken, namely, imprisonment until the parties were reformed, and transportation afterwards. He understood that an attempt of this kind that had been tried in a part of Australia near Port Philip had been attended with complete success. A number of criminals had been sent out there after being reformed at Parkhurst Prison, and they had since made for themselves new characters, and were now doing exceedingly well. The system of the noble Lord the late Secretary for the Colonies was the very reverse of this. He had concentrated in Van Diemen's Land such a number of criminals as most materially to injure the character of the Colony. There was an amount of turpitude and crime now prevalent in the Colony that was quite inconceivable, and which could not be thought on without the greatest pain. The question of transportation had been referred in France to the Judges, and they came to the conclusion that it might be adopted as a supplement to imprisonment; and in an admirable treatise recently published on the subject in that country, the view which he now put forward was advocated. He had intended to enter at considerable length into this subject; but he would not now do so in consequence of the lateness of the Session, and the recent change in the Government. He ardently hoped that the attention of Her Majesty's Ministers would be directed to this question, which might so well be called not only moral and political, but religious. The Government could not be expected to have formed any plan on the subject as yet; but he trusted

1349
they would attend to it, and effect a real reform of this most unparalleled system of colonial policy. He would leave this question with confidence in the hands of his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
SIR G. GREYsaid, he was sure the House would not expect him to enter at any length into this very important subject at present. He gave his hon. and learned Friend credit for the manner in which he had brought the question before the House; and he would assure him most fully that the subject was one which was engaging the serious and earnest consideration of Her Majesty's Government. He was afraid that it was impossible to allege that his hon. and learned Friend's statement of the condition of Van Diemen's Land was at all exaggerated. As he had stated on a former evening, the question had occupied the attention of the late Government; and they had resolved to suspend transportation to Van Diemen's Land for a period of eighteen months; and the manner in which the convicts were to be disposed of in the interim, was now under consideration. The second Resolution of the hon. Gentleman embraced a still wider field for inquiry; and he believed his hon. Friend scarcely expected that he should now, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, express any opinion upon it. In theory, he perfectly agreed with the views expressed and embodied in that Resolution; but his hon. Friend was, no doubt, aware that the question of secondary punishment was one of the most important that could engage the attention of any Government. It was one that Her Majesty's Government were fully alive to, and to which their most serious attention should be given. He hoped his hon. Friend would be satisfied with this explanation, which was all he found himself in a position to give.
MR. G. W. HOPEsaid, he had to complain that the hon. Gentleman, in bringing forward his Motion, should have thought it necessary to single out the noble Lord under whom he had served for attack. The hon. Gentleman should have recollected that his charge was met by his own statement. The present system was commenced in Van Diemen's Land in 1839, long before his noble Friend had come into office. It had been adopted in consequence of a Committee of that House having reported against transportation to New South Wales. The whole tide of transportation had been thus directed to
1350
Van Diemen's Land; and, with defective arrangements, the result was certainly by no means successful. His noble Friend, on coming into office, found the whole tide of transportation turned to that Colony. What was called the probation system had been introduced under the noble Lord the Member for the city of London. His noble Friend did not establish that system, but he had done his utmost to improve it by adding religious instruction and issuing additional orders as to classification. His right hon. Friend near him (Sir James Graham) had, after the noble Lord left office, altogether put an end to transportation to Van Diemen's Land. He had not such strong hopes as the hon. Gentleman of the success of reforming prisoners. Some of these reformed convicts who had been sent to Hobart Town, as soon as they learned that they were free became utterly unmanageable.
Motion by leave withdrawn.
Question again put.

THE NAVY.
SIR C. NAPIERsaid, that before the House went into Committee of Supply, he was desirous of offering a few observations upon the subject of a vote which appeared in the Estimates. He saw a vote for shipbuilding and repairing ships, 1,273,789 l., and large as the sum was, he did not object to its amount, but to its application. Since 1843 there had been two ships of the line, six frigates, five brigs, fourteen steamers, and we had on the stocks no less than six 92-gun ships, four or five 80-gun ships, three 50-gun frigates, and four or five 26-gun frigates, with an immense number of smaller vessels. Now, he would ask of what use it was, when we had such an immense fleet as we already had, to go on still constructing more ships to such an extent, and at such an expense to the country? It was quite impossible that we could man half of them if it were necessary for us to get afloat a large navy to-morrow. If, therefore, the Government wanted to increase the naval power of the country, the way to do it was to increase the number of good seamen, for it would be as well to talk of an army when we had a great number of barracks and forts, as to talk of a navy because we had a great number of ships. They ought, therefore, instead of directing all their attention to this vast increase in the number of ships, to direct their attention to obtaining the supply of good seamen to man their ships.

1351
There were six old 74-gun ships which the late Board of Admiralty ordered to be fitted as block-ships; they were to have 40 guns each, to be fitted up with screws, and to carry three or four days coal each; but to remain in harbour as block-ships. Suppose that plan succeeded, of what use would those block-ships be? What advantage would they possess over any other old ships towed by steamers? And for this alteration of those ships a sum of 18,000 l. was to be voted as the estimated expense, although he believed that one of those ships would require an expenditure of the sum which had been put down for the whole of them. Then, with respect to steam frigates, the Avenger and the Retribution were fitted up with paddle-box boats; but when they were fully equipped the constructors said they were not fit to carry paddle-box boats, and the boats were accordingly removed, and the paddle-boxes covered as in a common steamer; so that if troops were sent abroad in time of war by those vessels, there would be no mode of landing them but by borrowing the boats of men of war, as had been done in Syria. He trusted that the new Board of Admiralty would pay attention to these subjects, and above all things that they would take means to man the navy fully and efficiently. Another important subject was the state of our harbours. The French had taken great care in that respect. The harbour of St. Maloes was capable of containing 100 sail of man-of-war steamers, while Cherbourg would contain the combined fleets of France and England. That port had two basins, one of which could enable fifty-five sail of the line to come up to the quays, and another which would contain seventy sail of line. Thus that harbour was so situated that soldiers could be sent down at the shortest notice by railways, and sent to sea without delay for any hostile purpose. With respect to the manning of our navy, it would be remembered that in 1841 the French fitted out a fleet of twenty ships, and sent it to the Mediterranean; and we could at that time only fit up seventeen sail, and had two ships waiting eleven months before they could complete their amount of men. The importance of this subject would be seen by hon. Members, when he stated that if we had occasion to commission four or five new ships of the line now, we could not man them in anything like proper time. He made these exposés with a view to direct the attention
1352
of the proper authorities in these matters to a class of abuses which, for the honour of the country and the service, it was most desirable should be remedied. There was another subject, in reference to which he was anxious to say a single word—he alluded to the contracts. On looking over a statement of the various contracts for timber made by the Board of Admiralty, he found that more than one-half of them were privately made. Now, he should be glad to know on what plea the practice of having private contracts was to be defended. He trusted that those who had now succeeded to posts of authority in the Admiralty would look to this matter, and avoid the very objectionable course of proceeding in this respect adopted by their predecessors. There was another subject he was anxious to refer to which was one of very considerable importance; he alluded to the necessity for adopting a more efficient plan for manning the British navy than that which at present prevailed. He cheerfully admitted that the late Board of Admiralty exerted themselves very laudably last year, with a view to better the condition of the British seaman, and they had succeeded in their efforts; for he was unquestionably better fed and taken better care of than in former years; but they were certainly bound in duty to direct their attention most seriously, and on the earliest possible occasion, to the manning of the British navy. Mr. Sidney Herbert was the only Gentleman connected with the Admiralty who had ever thought it necessary to devote any attention to this subject. It was his right hon. Friend the Member for Dorchester who had been the first to introduce a Bill for the registration of seamen. It was strenuously opposed by the merchants; and Lord Althorp had expressed an opinion to the effect that it would be impossible to enact any such measure; but the hon. Member for Dorchester persevered in pressing it. It passed the other House; and was the groundwork of the Bill which was in force at the present moment. Some improvements and modifications, however, were essentially necessary to be introduced into the Registration Bill and the Enlistment Bill as well, in order to render the measure as beneficial as was desirable. The men were now registered; and if the masters of merchant ships would only do their duty, and carry the provisions of the Bill vigorously out, the results would be most beneficial. Certain emendations, however, were indis-

1353
pensably essential to the well-working of this measure, as well as of the Enlistment Bill; and with reference to the plan of manning of the navy, he might say he was a decided advocate for the system of calling out the men by classes, so that every man who served his apprenticeship in a merchant ship might have an opportunity, when out of his time, of serving for some period in the royal navy. He had received a letter from Seaman's Hall, South Shields, in which it was stated that the experienced seamen there who had served their apprenticeship were strongly in favour of this system, and thought that the young seamen, when out of their time, ought certainly to serve for a stated period in the navy. There was another matter to which he was particularly desirous of calling the attention of the Board of Admiralty—he alluded to the necessity of establishing sailors' homes in as many ports as possible. There was a sailors' home in London, which would well repay the trouble of a visit. It was an admirably conducted establishment, where the men were comfortably lodged, and in every respect well treated, and where there was abundant evidence of the great advantage which such institutions were calculated to confer upon the seaman. It was a thing very much to be lamented that, notwithstanding the promises of the late Board of Admiralty, there was no sailors' home as yet in Portsmouth. In that place the old and most objectionable system still prevailed; and the sailor, on arriving in port, found himself at the mercy of crimps, who robbed him unmercifully, so that his money was gone in a few days. He was happy to say that a sailors' home was in process of erection in Liverpool; and he last year laid the foundation of a similar institution in Glasgow; but nothing would encourage such establishments so much as that the Board of Admiralty should take the institution of them under their special superintendence. He trusted that the present Board of Admiralty would take this in hand; and that the day was not far distant when institutions of this kind would be established in Portsmouth and Plymouth, where the money, clothes, bedding, health, and morals of the seamen would be secure. The last and indeed the most important matter that he was anxious to press upon the attention of those who now presided at the Admiralty, was the absolute necessity of putting somebody who had been himself in the navy at the head of the naval construction departments. If
1354
this recommendation were not attended to, it would be in vain to hope to see the ships of the British navy built properly, and in a manner becoming the character of the service. It was really impossible to exaggerate the importance of this suggestion. The present system was in this respect scandalously defective; and the Senior Lord of the Admiralty had the whole practical business of the navy entrusted to his superintendence; and he defied him, were he ever so young, talented, or vigorous, to prevent that defective system of naval architecture, which naval officers so much deplored. Ever since he had been in the navy, he had observed the same fault committed; and unless they adopted his recommendation, and appointed some competent person, who, from practical experience, understood the matter, to superintend the construction of the ships, they would go on in the same objectionable course, spending the public money, and yet not having an efficient navy. Having thanked the House for the attention with which they had listened to him, the hon. and gallant Member concluded by expressing a hope that those who had now succeeded to the Board of Admiralty would see the propriety of taking the matters to which he had thus called their attention into their immediate and serious consideration.
MR. WARDwould be prepared on a future occasion to make a statement in reply to tbe observations made by the hon. and gallant Member; but considering the state to which the Admiralty were reduced just at present for funds, it was to be hoped that the hon. and gallant Member would not offer any objection to the House now going into Committee, and agreeing to one or two Votes at all events on account. The fact was, they required money to go on, and could make no progress without it. There was one question, however, which had been put by the hon. and learned Member, and to which he was prepared at once to make a reply. He alluded to the inquiry with reference to a plan of retirement. This was a matter which had engaged the serious attention of the late Board of Admiralty. They had bequeathed to their successors a plan of retirement, on which the late Board were agreed, with the exception of Lord Ellenborough. The noble Lord now at the head of that department approved unreservedly of the general principles of this plan, and only waited for the

1355
meeting of the Board to adopt preliminary measures with a view to carry it into effect.
MR. HUMEwas anxious, before the House went into Committee, to say how desirable he thought it was that some regulations should be made for the future, of such a nature as would tend to stop the constant scenes of crimination and recrimination which were always sure to take place whenever the Navy Estimates were under discussion. It appeared to him that it was most injudicious and improper to cry down our navy throughout the world in this extraordinary manner. Any one who had listened to the hon. Member would suppose that there was no country in the world which had so bad and so inefficient a navy.
ADMIRAL BOWLESdeclared there was nothing whatever in the condition of the navy to create any pain or alarm to the House or the country; and if the hon. and gallant Member (Sir C. Napier) would at any time bring forward a specific charge or censure, he would undertake to meet it.
House in Committee of Supply.
Two Votes were agreed to.
House resumed. Committee to sit again.
The House adjourned at a quarter to Two o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. New Zealand Loan.
2a. Saint Asaph and Bangor and Manchester Dioceses.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Duke of Buccleuch, from Bristol, and a great number of other places, against the Union of Saint Asaph and Bangor, but in favour of the Appointment of a Bishop to the See of Manchester.

ST. ASAPH AND BANGOR AND MANCHESTER DIOCESES BILL.
The Order of the Day for the Second Reading of this Bill being read,
The EARL of POWIS(who was imperfectly heard), said that it was not his intention, on the present occasion, to enter into any long statistical statement. He had trespassed too often on former occasions to render it desirable to address their Lordships at greater length than was necessary to bring the question distinctly before them. He would therefore at once bring to their Lordships' notice the circumstances under which this application was made. Their Lordships were aware that in the year 1835 a Commission was appointed to consider the state of the Established Church. Amongst other topics which occupied the consideration of the Commissioners was a project of establishing a bishopric of Manchester, and in connexion therewith of uniting the two sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. The reason given for that union was an objection existing on the part of certain persons to an increase of the episcopacy of the Establishment. The union of the two old sees of St. Asaph and Bangor was not a popular question, and it was necessary, in order to make it palatable, that some consideration should be held out as an inducement to accede to it. The inducement held out was the importance of establishing in the great and powerful district of Manchester, and other parts of Lancashire, the immediate superintendence of a bishop. Their Lordships acquiesced in the importance and justice of such a proceeding; but the deprival of one of their bishops was not very popular with the people of the Principality. Both the
1270
bishops were highly respected; and it was deeply regretted that they would not have successors. The Commissioners felt that it was necessary, in order to palliate the destruction of the see, and qualify the evil thus inflicted, to hold out some bonus to the Principality; and therefore their first report recommended that when the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor were united, the surplus income should be applied to the augmentation of their smaller benefices. He felt he was now introducing the subject to their Lordships' notice under different circumstances than heretofore; Sir R. Peel and his late Colleagues had been succeeded in the Government by the noble Marquess the President of the Council, and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack as Lord Chancellor. He asked those noble Lords, in the station in which they stood, to do justice to his countrymen and his Church, in consequence of the alterations made in the second report of the Commissioners, to which they had made themselves a party. He appealed to the noble Marquess, and asked him, if a case of a similar character as this occurred to him in private life, how he would act? If the noble Marquess had obtained power over a property upon the promise of certain considerations, whether he would, after having gained possession of the property, first decline to perform the conditions, and insist upon retaining the property for which he had refused the consideration? He should like to see how a person who presumed to suggest such a course would be dealt with in Lansdowne House—whether he would not have the alternative, and but short time for deliberation, submitted to him, of taking himself off either by the door or the window? His countrymen were the parties who felt that they had not been fairly dealt with in respect to this measure, and complained of the considerations entered into with them having been withheld. On the part of his poor countrymen he felt himself called upon to bring forward the present proposition, in the hope that that consideration would be given to it which that House of Parliament invariably gave to questions of property such as this was when weakness appealed to their justice. He knew no better way of bringing the case before their Lordships than by reading a petition which he had the honour early in these proceedings to present and read to the House, which petition embodied in eloquent language the case of his countrymen and their Church. The petition

1271
emanated from the inhabitants of the Isle of Man, and was as follows:—
"That your petitioners will ever most gratefully remember the powerful co-operation and the generous support which, in that arduous struggle, they received from the universities, the various chapters, archdeaconries, and numerous bodies of the clergy and laity of England and Wales, in advocating their cause with your right honourable House; and still more do your petitioners feel impressed with gratitude to the Parliament of the United Kingdom for their gracious compliance with the earnest prayers of the Manx people. That your petitioners feel in a peculiar manner the affinity between the sees of Sodor and Man, of St. Asaph and of Bangor (I entreat your Lordships' particular attention to the following sentences)—all bishoprics of independent States for many centuries previously to the Isle of Man and the Principality of Wales being incorporated in the British dominions—all in the earliest time endowed with funds for the maintenance of their several churches within their respective dioceses—all amid the revolutions of succeeding ages, the change of dynasties, and the reformation in the Anglican Church, preserved unimpaired by the storms of time or the sacrilegious hand of arbitrary power;—and all having poor, scattered populations, requiring the entire care and attention of the most zealous bishop. With these recollections, your petitioners feel themselves called upon as fellow Christians to return good for good, sympathy for sympathy, and most respectfully to express their earnest hope to your honourable House that these two most interesting remains of the episcopacy of former days, which ages of barbarism, of war, and of revolution have spared, may not, in these enlightened times, be sacrificed to the expediency of measures which, however otherwise important, they beg leave most respectfully to express their hope, may by other means be attained. That the ancient revenues of these sees may not be diverted from their legitimate object to assist in founding another see in a district unconnected with their own, and which is one of the most wealthy in the kingdom, but that the inhabitants of North Wales, by the blessing of Divine Providence, and through the wisdom and the justice of Parliament, for all time yet to come may be permitted to retain unchanged the incalculable advantages of their present Episcopal Establishment; and each see to continue to possess a separate resident Bishop to preside over their churches, and personally to superintend and promote the spiritual and the temporal welfare of the people; and that at a time when it has been deemed expedient by the Government, and sanctioned by the Crown, to consecrate Prelates to all the widely-extended Colonies of the Empire, in the four quarters of the globe, and even to the more recently discovered shores of Australia; and whilst the rapidly augmenting population of the British Isles would appear likewise to demand an augmentation of episcopal superintendence, your petitioners would willingly hope that the next step in this great work will not be connected with the extinction of one of the very ancient bishoprics of the most ancient people of Britain."
The noble Earl then proceeded to refer to the petitions he had presented that evening from Gloucester, Essex, Manchester, and other places, and condemned the uncon-
1272
stitutional power with which the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had been invested, which gave to their fiat the effect of an Act of Parliament, and at the same time deprived his countrymen of those means of resisting an arbitrary measure in the various stages of its progress through the House of Parliament, which the usage of Parliament gave to all whose rights and privileges were interfered with by its authority. With respect to the union of the two sees, he would affirm that the measure of which he complained would never have been carried, if it had been obliged to stand the test of discussion in their Lordships' House, instead of being silently established by Order in Council. He would now take leave to read to their Lordships an address to himself from the incumbents of livings under 200 l. per annum in the archdeaconry of Montgomery. It was in reply to a request from himself that they would be pleased to express their opinions of the respective measures proposed by Lord Monteagle and himself. The address did honour to the poor but exemplary men from whom it emanated. He (Lord Powis) was proud to be allowed the honour of calling himself their countryman:—
"TO THE RIGHT HON. THE EARL OF POWIS, K. G.
"May it please your Lordship—We, the undersigned incumbents of small benefices in the diocese of St. Asaph, beg leave to approach your Lordship with every sentiment of gratitude for the zealous efforts in which your Lordship is so nobly persevering to recue the Church in North Wales from the reckless spoliation with which it is threatened.
"Your Lordship has announced a desire in your letter lately addressed to the dean and chapter and clergy of St. Asaph, 'That the opinion of the clergy of the North Wales dioceses should be distinctly expressed in respect of Lord Monteagle's and your own course of proceeding.'
"We, therefore, as humble Members of that body, lose no time in responding to this appeal by making public our emphatic declaration that we indignantly repudiate the very thought of wishing to avail ourselves of any such disposition of the episcopal revenues as that contemplated by Lord Monteagle.
"We feel no shame in avowing our poverty, nor the satisfaction with which any legitimate increase of worldly means would be hailed by any or all of us; but if we would shrink from the offer of being enriched by any violation of the rights of private property, still more do we recoil from the bare idea of sharing in spoils arising from what we consider a most unjustifiable act of interference with ecclesiastical endowment.
"With unceasing prayers that it may please God of His mercy and goodness to grant a favourable issue to your Lordship's exertions, and to ward off the blow which we are more and more convinced would be followed by the most disastrous results to the Church—We have the honour to remain, &c."
These were amongst the many reasons which justified him in again pressing this subject upon their Lordships' notice. He begged to remind their Lordships that of the Members of the Commission appointed to report upon the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, no less than three of them, men of weight and authority with their Lordships, had avowedly changed their opinions upon the subject—the Archbishop of York, Lord Harrowby, and Mr. Williams Wynn, another highly respectable Member of the Ecclesiastical Commission. He believed there never was a case in which the right rev. Bench had given their opinion more decidedly than they had as to the impropriety of the union of these sees. The clergy almost universally were opposed to the measure, and he thought he had said quite enough to justify the course he had taken in asking their Lordships to assent to a repeal of those portions of the 6th and 7th of William the Fourth to which he objected. The transfer of the noble Marquess and his Friends from one side of the House to the other, might not, perhaps, be attributable wholly to the course the late Government had pursued with regard to the union of those sees; but he had no doubt the opposition of the late Government had created a feeling which had had its influence in producing the results which they now witnessed. The noble Earl then referred to the petition that had been presented from the Dean and Chapter and Clergy of the Archdeaconry of St. Asaph against the union of those sees:—
EXTRACT FROM THE PETITION OF THE DEAN AND CHAPTER AND ARCHDEACONS AND CLERGY OF THE DIOCESE OF ST. ASAPH.
"Your petitioners fondly hope that the same period in which the peculiar claims and feelings of the inhabitants of the sister island have received additional proofs of liberality, may not witness the violation of the most ancient and valued institutions of the Church in Great Britain.
"Your petitioners ask not for any accession of income or augmentation of honours; but they respectfully deprecate the extinction in their own district of that apostolical office the benefits of which your wisdom has lately extended to our most distant Colonies; they humbly pray that the primitive Church of their forefathers may not be weakened in its day of adversity, and that the efficient superintendence which can alone meet the growing exigencies of their country may be preserved unimpaired, a monument of the Legislature's gracious care for the Church, and a security for the religious welfare of all future generations.
"Your petitioners further declare that their sole object is to preserve the efficiency of the
1274
Church, and practically to enforce those doctrines which were embodied by her venerable reformers in her Liturgy, Articles, and Homilies; and they are anxious to record their conviction that no presumed advantage from the problematical increase to the incomes of the parochial clergy can in any way compensate the interests of religion in North Wales for the diminution of the number of our spiritual overseers."
It was signed by 160 or 170 clergymen, and pointed out in strong and forcible terms the mischief and inconvenience that would result from such a measure. The noble Earl called upon their Lordships to retrace steps discouraging to the Protestant religion in North Wales, and particularly objectionable at a moment when a rival Roman Catholic establishment was in progress of erection in sight of the cathedral of St. Asaph, which the Act he objected to proposed to deprive of its spiritual head; and concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill, which was the same as that of last year, with the exception of a few verbal alterations.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, it devolved upon him to state to their Lordships the grounds on which he felt it his duty to resist the Motion of the noble Earl. The difficulties under which he laboured in asking their Lordships' attention to that subject, arose not so much from their Lordships not being acquainted with it, as from the great familiarity which they had acquired with the subject, and the frequent discussions that had taken place. The noble Earl who had introduced the subject to their attention on former occasions at great length, had, on the present occasion, treated it much more briefly, although not less energetically and powerfully; and he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) would imitate his example, and state, as concisely as he could, the reasons that induced him to oppose the Motion of the noble Earl. Their Lordships should bear in mind, in order to arrive at a fair conclusion on the subject, the date and origin of the Commission which was issued by the Crown on the subject. The changes that had been recommended and adopted could not be viewed in an isolated point of view, but must be considered as a system of changes, each of them hinging upon the other, as they were recommended to the Crown and to Parliament. In 1835, under the administration of Sir R. Peel and the noble Duke the Commander in Chief, whom he did not then see in his place, a Commission was issued for the purpose of considering the most effectual mode of improving the condition of the Church. That

1275
Commission made a report, after having maturely considered the whole state of the Church, in which he found four principles laid down: the first was, that they were not prepared to recommend any increase in the number of sees in England; the second, that they were prepared to recommend the union of particular sees in cases where the sees were of such dimensions as to make it practicable for one bishop to exercise the united functions of both sees; thirdly, they recommended, the establishment of certain new bishoprics; and fourthly, they recommended a new distribution of the lands annexed to the bishoprics. Looking at these four recommendations, their Lordships would find that, with the exception of the last, which related to the distribution of land, the recommendations were necessarily dependent on each other, and must form part of one scheme; and it was undoubtedly with this view that their Lordships had given their ample assent to the principles laid down by the Commission, at the head of which was the Primate of England and the metropolitan Bishop of this great city. In saying this, he negatived at once the idea of reckless spoliation, to which the petition referred to by his noble Friend alluded. Their Lordships had given their implied sanction to the report of the Commission. Why did he say so? Because the report of that Commission was laid on the Table of the House in 1835; it was afterwards circulated by means of the newspapers amongst the public. In the following year an Act of Parliament, carrying into effect the recommendations of the Commissioners, was brought in and unanimously passed, with all the formalities and notoriety which necessarily attended the passing of all important Acts through that and the other House of Parliament. From that time the Commissioners, to whom the execution of that Act was entrusted, had gone on in the performance of their duty. Six years elapsed before the propriety, the wisdom, or the expediency of that Act was even called in question. In that interval there were two changes of Administrations, and two dissolutions of Parliament; and these petitioners might assuredly during that period, and amidst these changes, have found one Government or another, one Parliament or another, more or less favourable to their views and feelings. Yet it was not till 1843, that, instigated no doubt by the most laudable and patriotic feelings towards the Principality of Wales, his noble Friend, than whom a more worthy representative
1276
could not be found, took up the cause of these petitioners, and brought the subject under their Lordships' consideration. During these five or six years to which he had referred, had the Commissioners been idle—had their functions lain dormant? By no means. During these five or six years, the Principality of Wales was gaining by the operation of the Commission. It would not be contended that legislation for Wales should proceed on a different principle from legislation in reference to the rest of the Empire; at all events, they could not claim to be part of the United Empire when anything was to be given away, and refuse to be so regarded when anything was to be conceded. He found that these petitioners never objected in the least when anything was to be given them. They allowed two Welsh sees to be greatly augmented; they allowed advantages to be conferred on Wales under the proceedings of this Commission, the result of which was a balance in favour of that country of not less than 2,000 l. a year; and it was a most odd coincidence that they first brought forward this question at the very time when the Principality had received the maximum of all it could receive, and the minimum of all it could give. It was quite true that unless they succeeded now they might hereafter not be so well off as at present, under the operation of the Commission. He would not trouble their Lordships with figures, but would content himself with assuring their Lordships that, if the whole recommendations of the Commission under the Act were carried out, the balance in favour of Wales ultimately would be 500 l. a year. He trusted he had disposed of the case of the Principality of Wales; but he disclaimed putting the question on that ground: he protested against that Principality being considered on separate grounds, and as not subject to any general scheme of improvement applicable to the rest of the Empire, recommended after the best consideration by the prelates of the Church for the whole United Kingdom. Such was the view of the Commissioners. The Commissioners, feeling with their Lordships the high value of the episcopal authority, and being convinced that the recognised superintendence of bishops was identical with the beneficial administration of the Established Church, saw that a proper distribution of this authority was the only effectual mode of attaining this object: they saw that a new arrangement of the bishoprics in England and Wales would contribute essentially to the effect

1277
of the episcopal office and jurisdiction; they saw great masses of population without any commensurate assistance from the Church; above all, without that authority which the Church of England thought essential for its proper government. They laid their hands on two great masses, and determined to provide them with two new bishoprics. They had previously decided that they would not augment the number of sees; but they said, we must not let the population of Lancashire and Yorkshire remain in their present state, destitute of sufficient episcopal control. The bishopric of Ripon was created, and successfully created, on the very principle of 'reckless spoliation' of which the noble Earl complained. Would his noble Friend call upon him to repeal this Act? The next step was to provide a bishop for Manchester. Every one of their Lordships, no doubt, well knew the condition of the population of the districts to be comprehended in this see; all who were acquainted with the moral and religious condition of the growing masses which peopled that region would admit that the Commissioners had done no more than their duty, and that the Government of this country did no more than its duty, by omitting no step in their power towards the establishment—and not only the establishment, but the speedy establishment—of the see of Manchester. Mr. Burke said that, contemplating the vast masses of population in London, and recollecting all the corruption, all the crime, and all the misery of which it was the scene, looking up to heaven, he expected some lightning from above to fall and exercise an act of Divine vengeance on a mass so evil and so corrupted; but when in another moment he looked at the domes, and spires, and public institutions, rearing their lofty heads from the midst of the huge and corrupt mass, they appeared to him to be so many electrical conductors placed there to draw aside the wrath of heaven, and rescue that mass from the vengeance impending over them. As it was with London then, so was it with Manchester now: such masses as those were now congregated in the district which was to form the see of Manchester; in these it was proposed to plant an authority capable of directing and administering all those works of religion, morality, and kindness, which were capable of raising the people from the state in which they were plunged. The creation of the see of Manchester he therefore regarded as a primary object amongst the recommendations of
1278
the Commission; and, with all respect to the feelings of the inhabitants of the diocese of North Wales, whose cause his noble Friend had so ably espoused, he regarded the claims of either of the two dioceses as nothing in comparison with the importance of establishing this new bishopric at Manchester. Why should they not, in the Church as in the army, place their strongest garrisons where the danger was greatest? The population returns showed that if the increase in the population had gone on in the same ratio since as in the ten years immediately preceding the appointment of the Commission, there would have been added to the population of the district to be comprised in the see of Manchester a population greater than that contained in the two sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. Did not this circumstance itself afford the most convincing argument in favour of proceeding in the most effectual manner to provide episcopal superintendence for the former district? Supposing the diocese of Manchester to have been provided for, he admitted that it would be a matter for after consideration whether it would be expedient to retain these two bishoprics, or whether the funds devoted to their support could be applied in the matter of religion to a more useful purpose. But there was another reason which indisposed him to give any hasty pledge upon the subject. Assuming that there were funds at the disposal of the Commissioners applicable to the establishment of a bishopric—but there would be none beyond 900 l. a year applicable to the purpose, which would be very inadequate—but, supposing the funds to be adequate, there remained the after consideration—supposing these two bishoprics to be retained, which required the most sober and deliberate inquiry, he trusted his noble Friend would pardon him if, after only fifteen days' tenure of office, he was not prepared to give an opinion as to the expediency either of increasing the number of bishops or of determining one of the most delicate questions which could come before their Lordships in connexion with the Constitution of this country, namely, the expediency of creating an order of bishops not possessing seats in their Lordships' House. He did not go the length of asserting that under no circumstances could such a course be advisable; but it was a change too great to be dealt with as a mere incident to another question. He wished the whole circumstances of the case to be considered together; and, as his noble Friend only pro-

1279
posed to deal with a detached part of them, he could not but say "no" to the proposition that this Bill be read a second time. He did not wish to move a direct negative to the Motion of his noble Friend, and he should, therefore, propose that the Bill be read a second time on that day three months.
The BISHOP of LONDONsaid, that he meant to pursue the same course that evening which he had taken on the former occasion when the subject had been under their Lordships' consideration — namely, not to vote either for or against the Motion; and he should not have trespassed on their attention had he not been induced to make one or two observations in consequence of the statement which had fallen from the noble Marquess towards the conclusion of his speech, and which he (the Bishop of London) could not help thinking afforded better grounds of encouragement to those who wished to retain the sees both of St. Asaph and of Bangor, than had been given by those who had hitherto felt called upon to oppose the measure. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners had come to the decision at which they had arrived upon that subject, under circumstances which had been frequently stated to their Lordships, and which had partaken of the peculiar complexion of the times in which the Commission was instituted. The state of the Church had then been very different from what it was at present, and that difference he had no hesitation in saying was mainly attributable to the proceedings of the Commissioners themselves. But, as one of those Commissioners who had reluctantly come to the decision that that was not the proper time to propose an increase in the number of English bishops, he felt bound in candour to state, that he believed they (the Commissioners) had been somewhat wanting in courage upon that occasion; and he believed that if they had had a longer period to deliberate on the whole question, it was possible (he did not say it was certain) that they would have come to a different conclusion, and that they would not have allowed themselves to be deterred by the extreme difficulty and delicacy of the subject from suggesting that alteration in the ecclesiastical polity of this country which the exigencies of a growing population seemed imperatively to require. On a former occasion he had been painfully struck by something which had fallen from a noble Lord then in the Administration (Lord Stanley), and from which he concluded that in the opin-
1280
ion of that noble Lord, neither then nor at any future time could any addition be made to the number of English bishops. He might have misunderstood the noble Lord, and he hoped that he had done so; but he could not help repeating what he had stated on that occasion, and which he felt even more strongly now, that he did not think that the work which had not been too well done for 5,000,000 of people by twenty-six bishops, could be done well enough for 16,000,000 of people by the same number of prelates. Having made this remark, he begged to thank the noble Marquess for the temperate tone of his speech, and for the friendly feeling which pervaded it towards the Church. He was sure that every one of their Lordships concurred in the earnest desire which the noble Marquess had expressed that no time should be lost in the establishment of a bishopric in Manchester. If any reason were wanting for entertaining that desire, they would find abundant grounds for it in the success which had attended the establishment of the new diocese of Ripon; and he believed he might say, that if any Christian prelate had ever becomingly discharged the duties of the episcopacy it was his right rev. Friend who now occupied the episcopal chair in that diocese. Feeling as he did, and as he was convinced every one of their Lordships did, the paramount importance of establishing a bishopric in Manchester with the least possible delay, he had turned in his mind whether it might not be possible to establish such a bishopric without waiting for a vacancy in either of the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor, which he hoped would be far distant; and he could not help thinking that such a step might be taken. It was true, that at that moment the available annual surplus in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners did not much exceed 900 l. But, whenever a vacancy should have taken place in the diocese of St. Asaph, a sum of about 2,000 l. a year would be available out of its funds for the new bishopric; and what he would propose was that in the meantime, instead of applying the annual interest of the surplus at present in the hands of the Commissioners, a portion of the 16,000 l. from which that income was derived—say 1,000 l. or 1,500 l. a year, should be appropriated for the establishment of a bishopric in Manchester; so that there would be at once a sum of between 2,000 l. and 3,000 l. a year available for that purpose. He could confidently say that that sum might, without difficulty, be

1281
increased from other sources by at least 1,000 l. a year; and a bishopric might therefore be established in Manchester in the course of a few months, whose incumbent would be at once in the receipt of 3,500 l. or 4,000 l. a year. If Her Majesty's Government were to adopt that suggestion, it would then be open to them to deliberate, as the noble Marquess stated, whether or not they would accede to the almost unanimous wish of the Church of England, and suffer the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor to remain detached and separate. There would still, however, remain the difficult and delicate question, whether or not the new Bishop of Manchester should have a seat in their Lordships' House. But he did not think it necessary at that moment to embarrass the main question with a difficulty of that description, which might hereafter be consisidered on its own merits. He was persuaded that Her Majesty's Government would not find any insuperable obstacle—he would not say in altogether removing that difficulty, because he was afraid that it would exist in any case—but in overcoming the difficulty so as to permit the Church to enjoy the advantages she was so anxious to obtain, of having at once a bishop in Manchester, and of retaining the two ancient bishoprics of St. Asaph and Bangor.
The BISHOP of BANGORsaid he should tender his best thanks to the noble Marquess, both for the kind manner in which he had spoken of the Church of England, and for the encouragement he had held out to those who were anxious to prevent the union of the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor, that something should be done in their favour, if not at present, yet at some future time. He earnestly hoped that if it should please Providence to spare his life for a year or two longer, he would have the happiness of seeing any danger of an extinction of one of those dioceses finally removed. The feeling of the inhabitants of Wales was almost unanimous in favour of the measure proposed by the noble Earl (the Earl of Powis); for the people of the Principality wished their ancient sees should remain untouched and undiminished. There were no more ancient dioceses in these countries than the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. They had been established even before the archbishopric of Canterbury; and every feeling of the Welsh population was strongly enlisted in their preservation and support. This was a fact which was worthy of being
1282
taken into the most attentive consideration, and one which it was impossible to impress too strongly on the minds of their Lordships. He very much regretted the delay which had taken place in the settlement of this question, and was decidedly of opinion that the time had come when something should be done. Ten years had elapsed since the recommendation had first been made that a bishopric should be established at Manchester. The proposition was one which met with his cordial approval. He did not think that it in any way involved the necessity of consolidating the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor. He admitted that the establishment of a bishopric at Manchester was not only desirable but highly necessary. It was a project which was well deserving of the highest commendation; and if means were obtained for carrying it into operation—as he believed they might without much trouble — there could be no longer any grounds for persisting in uniting the two Welsh dioceses. This was not the time to take away from either the sole or the joint ecclesiastical corporations those tithes that had belonged to them before the Reformation. It had been said that the tithes held by the Bishops of St. Asaph and Bangor had been, within a late period, withdrawn by the parochial clergy. That was not the case. Those tithes never, as far as could be traced, belonged to the parochial clergy. He trusted that this matter would be brought to a satisfactory issue; and, whatever might be the event of their Lordships' division that evening, he hoped that some efficient means would be devised of preserving in their ancient and immemorial position the two Welsh dioceses, and at the same time of realising what was certainly a desideratum by the establishment of a new bishopric at Manchester. Under this persuasion he would leave his cause in their Lordships' hands. It was his anxious desire and prayer that this question should be settled during his life. He humbly trusted that Providence might be graciously pleased to spare him until he saw the danger arrested which had caused such deep apprehension in the minds of his countrymen; and the two sees, which it was most unwisely, as it seemed to him, proposed to unite, severed and separate for all future ages. For his own part, he had no personal interest whatever in the matter: the union of the sees, if it were to occur at all, was not to take place until after his death; but his

1283
people were strongly opposed to the project; and as it was one of which he in the exercise of his individual judgment could not possibly approve, most fervently did he hope that their Lordships would relieve his flock from their anxiety, and gratify what he might call their national feelings.
LORD VIVIANwas of opinion that if the question were fairly stated to them, the laity of North Wales would not be found to be in favour of the views advocated by the right rev. Prelate. As he had done before, he should again vote negativing the proposition of the noble Lord; but he approved of the Bill; for he looked on it as a great and heinous injustice to take from the ecclesiastical revenues of the poor district of North Wales, in order to endow a bishopric in the rich district in which Manchester was situate. It would be far more fair that if anything were taken from the revenues of these bishoprics, it should be given to the poor clergy of those dioceses.
LORD STANLEYhoped he would be allowed to make a few observations, and more especially as something which he had said upon this subject on a former occasion had been misunderstood by a right rev. Prelate, whom he regretted he did not then see in his place. The opinion which he had formerly stated he still maintained. This was no party question. It was no question between the friends and adversaries of the Established Church. It was a question, not of what should interest the Church in England alone, nor in Wales alone, but of how the position of the Church of both countries together, financially and politically, would be best promoted by the adoption or rejection of the present Bill. The question to be considered was whether the recommendation of the Commissioners, appointed to inquire into those matters, should be carried out in part, or deviated from to such an extent as would entirely alter the views which they entertained. The question properly before them had to be considered in two lights—in a financial and political point of view. He would say a word in reply to the noble Lord who had last spoken, on the financial view of the question, and who seemed to think it more desirable that the revenues of two dioceses should be preserved to North Wales, than applied to the establishment of a diocese in a more wealthy part of the kingdom. Now, he (Lord Stanley) did not wish to consider this question as one affecting the interest of North Wales alone; neither was
1284
it the question of the establishment of a diocese at Manchester: it was really the question of the augmentation of the poorer dioceses of Llandaff and St. David's, in South Wales, out of the superfluities of the richer ones of St. Asaph and Bangor, that had been considered in the Order in Council. That appeared from a calculation which had been laid on the Table of the House, and which stated the amount of the revenues of St. David's and Llandaff, and recommended that a fixed annual payment should be made from the revenues of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor, when united, of the sum of 4,750 l., to be distributed in certain proportions there stated between the sees of Llandaff and St. David's. That calculation had been embodied in the Order in Council. The object, therefore, of the Order in Council had been distinctly stated to be, not to provide for the establishment of the see of Manchester, but for making up the inferiority in the revenues of the two bishoprics in South Wales. That was the destination of the sum proposed to be paid into the Consolidated Fund from the united bishoprics; and the sum so to be paid from those bishoprics into the Consolidated Fund was considerably less, upon striking a balance, than the sum to be paid out of it to the account of the two sees in South Wales. Upon the whole, England would lose considerably, and Wales gain, by the plan proposed by the Ecclesiastical Commission; but, in fact, the question was not so much a financial question. There was another point, and that was the question of the augmentation of the number of bishops' sees. He had been supposed to have said, on a former occasion, that so long as he had a voice in the matter there should be no augmentation in the number of bishoprics in this country. Now, he had said quite the reverse. It was true that he had called their Lordships' attention to the very serious difficulties that lay in the way of any plan for the increase of the number of sees. Either the measure of increasing the number of bishops in the House of Lords must be adopted—a course which would be open to the charge of endeavouring to increase the power of the Church—or the measure of creating bishops without seats in the Legislature must be adopted. This question he had said was one that he thought ought not to be decided by a casual vote or an incidental discussion, but that the deliberate opinion of Parliament ought to be taken, whether any increase should be made, and whether the

1285
new bishops, if any, should have seats in Parliament. He had also said that he thought, even if it were determined to increase the number of bishops, still it might be expedient to unite the sees of some bishoprics. But the whole scheme of the Ecclesiastical Commission was based upon the assumption—it was the primary position of that scheme—that the number of bishops' sees was not to be increased, however it might be found expedient to consider the best mode of distributing the funds at present enjoyed by the Church. He lived in the proposed diocese of Manchester; he knew the district; and he should be the last man to undervalue the importance of episcopal superintendence to the population living round Manchester. The fact was, that if the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor were united to-morrow, the labour of the bishop, whether measured by area, distance of ground, population, or number of parishes, would stand 20th or 23rd on the whole list of 26 bishoprics; that was, there would be about twenty-two other dioceses more extensive, and there would be some of those on which the duty and labour of the diocese would exceed that of the united diocese, seven, eight, nine, and even ten fold. The united sees would contain 250 benefices—the number of benefices in the diocese of Norwich not being less than 1,200. The population of the united diocese of St. Asaph and Bangor was much less than that of Norwich, infinitely less than that of Chester, and much less than that of London. It must always be remembered, that one object of the Commission was to equalize the labour, as well as the emoluments of the bishoprics in England. He thought, therefore, that the noble Lord was not justified, in the present circumstances, considering that the Session was so far advanced, and considering the recent formation of the Ministry, in asking their Lordships to join with him in affirming part of the plan of the Commissioners, and disaffirming the rest. The noble Lord did, in his opinion, affirm by this Bill that not only should there be an additional bishop, but that such an additional bishop should have a seat in their Lordships' House. Now, he (Lord Stanley) did not think that such a question ought to be decided on a single case; and he hoped, that if this Bill were rejected, the noble Lord would, at the commencement, not at the end of the Session, take measures for obtaining the opinion of Parliament whether there should be an increase in the number
1286
of bishops, and whether they should have seats in Parliament, ascertaining also to what extent that increase, if it were made, ought to go. Having done that, the noble Lord would come with much greater advantage to that which was the smaller part of the question, whether or not Parliament was disposed to alter so much of the recommendations of the Commissioners as related to the union of the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor. Entertaining these views, and having heard nothing from the noble Earl to alter the opinion he expressed last year, he must confess, speaking individually for himself, that he could not concur in the second reading of this Bill; and he could assure his noble Friend that it would give him the greatest satisfaction if on the present occasion he would refrain from pressing the question to a division.
The BISHOP of SALISBURY, in addressing their Lordships on the question, wished to say one or two words on what had fallen from a noble Lord on that side of the House (Lord Vivian) in the course of the debate. That noble Lord had alluded to the state of the clergy of North Wales, and had proposed, in the event of the union of the two sees taking place, that the surplus revenue should be appropriated rather to the augmentation of the poorer livings in these dioceses, than that it should be carried to the general fund. For himself he would never say one word against any proposition for sufficiently endowing the parochial clergy of the country; but he begged to remind the noble Lord that the evil of which he complained was not greater in the dioceses of North Wales than it was in different parts of England, and he did not think it advisable that the noble Lord's proposal should be adopted with reference to one particular portion of it. He knew it might be said that the tithes of St. Asaph and Bangor were in the hands of the bishops; and that they were, therefore, capable of being diverted to the purpose the noble Lord had in view; but neither in this respect were those dioceses peculiarly situated, as the tithes of other dioceses were in the same situation. He had always advocated the present measure, not as peculiarly a Welsh question but with reference to the general interests of the Church. He had always advocated it, because it was of the utmost importance to establish as speedily as possible a bishopric in that important district of the country in which Manchester was situated. It was of the utmost importance in the

1287
consideration of this question to keep in view, that the spiritual welfare of thousands required that such a bishopric should be established without loss of time. It was with the greatest satisfaction that he had heard, both in that and the other House, the testimony which had been given regarding the spiritual benefits which had resulted from the establishment of the bishopric of Ripon. Ten years had since elapsed, during which time no less benefit would have resulted to the equally populous district of Manchester, if a bishopric had been created at the same time for that district. If it were necessary that such a see should be founded as speedily as possible, he prayed their Lordships to give their assent to the proposal of the noble Earl, or at least give effect to the statement which had been made by the noble Marquess; and he earnestly hoped that the Government would give their attention to the manner in which such a proposal could be best carried into effect. He knew that the difficulties connected with the subject were twofold—the provision of an adequate revenue, and the question whether such a bishop should have a seat in their Lordships' House. With regard to the question of revenue, he would willingly leave it in the position in which it had been placed by his right rev. Friend who had spoken on the subject. Having, however, last year stated that he believed the Commissioners had funds ample for such a purpose in their possession, he wished to offer a few words in explanation: when he said so, such was undoubtedly the case—the Commissioners had then a much larger fund than they now possessed, for since that time they had carried into effect two very important operations, but neither of which, in his opinion, could be compared to the establishment of a bishopric of Manchester. One of these measures was the further endowment of the bishopric of Rochester, in consideration of the annexation to it of a part of the diocese of London; and the other was the augmentation of the diocese of Oxford, consequent on the translation of the late bishop of Bath and Wells. No doubt these were important measures, but not to be compared to the establishment of a bishopric of Manchester. He agreed with the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) in the interpretation which he had put upon the present Bill. He thought that it would give to the Bishop of Manchester a seat in their Lordships' House. After the very encouraging speech of the noble Mar-
1288
quess the President of the Council, he would put it to the noble Earl whether under the circumstances it would be wise in him to press the Bill on the present occasion. If the noble Earl should do so, he (the Bishop of Salisbury) would unshrinkingly and fearlessly vote as he had heretofore done on the question. He would, however, venture to suggest to the noble Earl to leave the measure for consideration in the next Session, as the lateness of the present Session precluded all chance of carrying a measure of such importance through Parliament. He admitted that the question whether the new bishop should have a seat in that House was a delicate one. It was not from feelings of personal pride or vanity that he rejoiced that the bishops of the Church had seats in their Lordships' House, for he looked upon their sitting there as an important element in the union of the Church and State which had so long existed in this country greatly to the advantage of both. Nor was it in order to increase political power in the hands of the clergy that he wished to see the bishops in that House, but for the very contrary reason; because he believed that the presence of his right rev. Brethren, more than anything else, influenced the great body of the clergy in abstracting themselves to the extent they had done from the injurious engagements of political life. He regarded a political priesthood, engaged in political strife for the enlargement of their worldly power and interests, as one of the greatest evils that could befall a country, and as one against which wise statesmen would most carefully guard; but he would have the assent of their Lordships, when he said that the general character of the great body of the clergy was the reverse of this. He believed there was no body of men equally fitted by education and station as they were for exercising so great an influence in political affairs, and who had so largely abstained from putting themselves forward in respect of political affairs. They had had lately a remarkable instance that the clergy were not disposed to come forward and take part in a political question, even though it was one in which their own particular interests were concerned. This was to be attributed, in a great degree, to the presence of the right rev. Body with which he had the honour to be connected in the Legislature. Political power and influence were not necessarily attached to seats in the Legislature. It might be,

1289
that had none of the clergy been present in the Legislature, their political influence would have been thereby increased. Whether the State would gain by the exchange of the legitimate influence exercised by the presence of the small number of clergy in their Lordships' House, for the irregular influence which would be exercised by their organization in other ways, he very much doubted. The increase of the political influence of the clergy in such a manner would be at the expense of the State, and the expense of their efficiency as the spiritual guides of the people. This was one of the main grounds on which he attached importance to the influence of the body to which he had the honour to belong in their Lordships' House; and although he should be glad to see the Bill of the noble Earl carried in its integrity, he would suggest to him the propriety, on the present occasion, of not pressing it to a division.
The BISHOP of NORWICHdid not oppose the Bill because he wished to diminish the number of bishops; on the contrary, he was persuaded the country required a considerable addition to that body; but his reason for not agreeing to the Bill of the noble Earl was this, that the question was, whether there should be two bishoprics of Bangor and St. Asaph, or whether there should be one bishop of Manchester. He felt confident that Manchester had the greater claim. If the noble Earl would withdraw the Bill, and introduce one in the course of the next Session for an increase in the episcopacy, he would give it his support; or, perhaps, it might be better to create a number of suffragan bishops. Most of the dioceses were much larger than that of St. Asaph and Bangor, and if the clergy of that diocese were assured that all the livings from which the Bishops derive their tithes would revert to the support of the working clergy, it would give them the greatest possible satisfaction, and tend to soften down the dissatisfaction which they felt at the removal of one of their bishops.
EARL GREYthought one of the right rev. Prelates who had addressed their Lordships, had mistaken the meaning of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lansdowne). His noble Friend stated as one ground of objection to the measure, that it would effect a partial and incomplete and imperfect alteration of a law and an extensive measure which was adopted on a full consideration of the whole state of episcopacy in the kingdom, and the condition of the bishops both with respect to the labour im-
1290
posed upon them, and the amount of income derived from their sees. The right rev. Prelate who first addressed their Lordships had truly remarked, that the hostile feeling which existed at the time the Commissioners made their report had now abated, and that the improvement was in no slight degree attributable to the reforms and improvements which had emanated from the Commission. Some years ago the condition of the Church was highly anomalous. The labours and the incomes of the sees were unequal; and various imputations were cast upon the Church, which, although not justly deserved, produced a considerable impression on the country. The result of the appointment of the Commission had been, that in the course of a few years great improvement had taken place in the way of equalizing the duties and emoluments of the different sees, and in providing religious instruction in populous districts; and to these and other changes might be attributed the different state of feeling which now existed towards the Church. But if their Lordships consented to pass this Bill, they would make an inroad on the system of reform which had been commenced. If this application on the part of North Wales was listened to, and their Lordships should say it was unjust to deprive that district of a portion of the income which it had hitherto enjoyed for ecclesiastical purposes, for the benefit of the nation at large, the same principle must be applied to other districts; and they would thus break down in detail that valuable and useful reform which was adopted, a few years ago, upon full consideration, by the advice of some of the most distinguished ornaments of the Bench, with the sanction of two Governments, and the unanimous assent of both Houses of Parliament. It had been said that the union of the sees of St. Asaph and Bangor would be extremely inconvenient, on account of the difficulty of obtaining access to the diocesan; but the railway between St. Asaph and Bangor would be completed in a short time, and then that difficulty would no longer exist. He was not prepared to deny that it might be desirable to keep both these bishoprics—he was not prepared to deny that a considerable increase in the number might be desirable; but if an increase was to take place, let it be done in the same manner as the other measure of Church reform. Let them consider the whole effect of the measure. Let them look to the whole state of the country, ascertain where the increase was most

1291
wanted, and how that increase could be effected in such a manner as still to preserve an equality in the emoluments and duties of the several bishoprics. Let them consider how, keeping that equality, they could make the increase most available for promoting the general efficiency of the Church taken as a whole. Viewing it in that light, he considered there was no evidence to show that the continuance of these two sees was desirable. On the contrary, all the evidence went to show that this was not one of the sees which required subdivision; and the noble Lord opposite (Lord Stanley) had fully shown that it stood exceedingly low in the list of bishoprics with respect to the extent of the diocese, the number of livings, and the amount of population. Then with respect to the question whether a new bishop ought to take his seat in that House. He attached great importance to the presence of the bishops in their Lordships' House, and thought the reasons of the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Salisbury) on that subject exceedingly strong. Before deciding on any increase, another question ought to be considered, whether it might not be desirable to act on the suggestion just thrown out, and appoint a number of suffragan bishops. That question was deserving of grave and serious consideration. On looking to the great increase which had taken place in the number of lay Peers, and considering how much smaller proportion the bishops now bore to them than they did some years ago, he, for one, entertained no strong objection—he might almost say no objection at all, if it should appear desirable to introduce a larger number into their Lordships' House. If that were the best mode of providing for the efficient discharge of the duties of the Church and her general welfare, he should on that ground make no objection to an increase in the number of bishops. Before taking any such step, however, another important question ought to be considered—the want of a sufficient number of parochial clergy in the country. If the want of episcopal superintendence was a crying evil, the want of an adequate number of the parochial clergy in those districts where the population had so greatly increased, was an evil of a still more pressing nature. He thought it more requisite to have an increased number of the clergy in proportion to the population, than that they should provide more effectual means of superintendence of the clergy. By adopting the Bill of the noble Earl, they directly struck at the possi-
1292
bility of improvements, if they were now, without full examination and investigation, to apply the funds which were now devoted to the maintenance of these two sees to any particular purpose. If the House were to proceed to dispose of a portion of ecclesiastical income, he said, for one, that he should greatly prefer the mode of dealing with this income which had been proposed by a noble Friend not now present to the increase of livings in Wales. In the report of the Church Commission he found it stated—
"That the evils which flow from this deficiency in the means of religious instruction and pastoral superintendence greatly outweigh all other inconveniences, and it unfortunately happens that where these evils are the most urgent of all, and most require the application of an effectual remedy, they are precisely those for which a remedy can be least easily found. The resources which the Established Church possesses, and which can properly be made available for this purpose, are evidently quite inadequate to the exigency of the case, and all that we can hope to do is greatly to diminish the intensity of the evil."
That was the opinion of the Church Commissioners; and he asked, would their Lordships, without inquiry, without deliberation, without looking at the whole state of the Church and the nation, at once, by a precipitate vote, decide that the sum that would arise from the union of these two sees (supposing it was not wanted for the endowment of the see of Manchester) should be applied to keeping these two sees distinct, rather than increasing the means of religious instruction. These grounds seemed to be quite decisive against the Bill. He would only add, that the noble Earl who moved it had addressed a strong appeal to Her Majesty's Government, and had begged them not to do anything to the injury of the Church of England. He could assure him, both for himself and his Colleagues, that so far from thinking that they were injuring the Church of England by maintaining the arrangement which was adopted on the advice of the Church Commission, they were taking that course which they were firmly convinced was most for the real and permanent interest of the Church. He agreed with his noble Friend who sat opposite, that the whole question they had that night to consider was this, in what manner could they make such an arrangement of the funds belonging to the Church as would most contribute to the utility and efficiency of the Church Establishment? That was the only ground on which he resisted the Motion of the noble Earl; and it was a strong confirmation to him that, in

1293
taking that course, he was acting wisely and judiciously, when he found that he was acting on the advice of those most eminent persons who composed the Church Commission. There was another topic to which he wished slightly to allude. The noble Earl, in moving the second reading, had called on their Lordships to remember that another Church was extending itself, and was almost at the door of St. Asaph. He alluded to the efforts which were making for the extension and advancement of the Roman Catholic Church; and he called upon their Lordships, when they saw this state of things, not to adopt a measure which he said would greatly discourage our own Church. Now, he could not help reminding the noble Earl that the real grounds upon which this measure which he had so ably advocated was desired, the real motive which was at the bottom of the wish expressed in many quarters for this measure, was not a little dangerous with reference to the extension of the Roman Catholic Church, to which he had adverted; because if their Lordships had listened to the speeches made, not only that night, but on former nights, in favour of this proposition, they would not have failed to perceive that one strong reason in favour of this measure was the antiquity of these two sees — a reverence, amounting he should say almost to a superstitious reverence, of that which at once existed—an indisposition to make any change or alteration in that which was consecrated by time. Let him ask their Lordships whether it was not obvious that, if they followed out that motive and opinion to its legitimate consequence, they did not arrive at the conclusion at which it was well known some very eminent persons had arrived by precisely the same mode of reasoning — that there was but one true Church, and that the Church of Rome—that our own was a schismatical and heretical Church—and that the departure from that which had been established was altogether improper and unsatisfactory. He was persuaded that those who now listened to him must be aware that there was something of this feeling in the minds of many of those who so ardently objected to the proposed union of the two sees. He did not say that it was the feeling of the majority: he was far from believing it; but on looking at the tone of many of the public discussions, he could not help strongly suspecting that such feeling and desire were by no means rare.
The EARL of ELDONsaid, that he was
1294
one of those who had uniformly given his vote in favour of his noble Friend, and he was happy to see that the numbers had considerably increased. He also knew well that many of the Commissioners who had originally made the recommendation for the union of the two sees, had by degrees shrunk from their standard on the opposite side, and now joined his noble Friend. He would not support the Bill if he felt that he was precluding himself from doing justice to Wales, or preventing others from gaining a benefit; and he would support the introduction of every clause in the Bill, when in Committee, which should place this matter on a satisfactory basis. He felt that in voting for the measure that night they were pushing forward the feelings of the people of this country in favour of an increase of the number of bishops; and he by no means thought they were excluding the fact that the parochial clergy should be increased.
The BISHOP of OXFORDsaid, that it was not without reluctance, after their Lordships had heard so many of his right rev. Brethren, that he trespassed on their attention for a few moments longer; but he the more felt the necessity of doing this after the speech so recently addressed to their Lordships by the noble Earl who was sitting on the Treasury bench (Earl Grey), because the noble Earl had changed the ground of opposition to his noble Friend who moved this Bill. The noble Marquess who spoke first for Her Majesty's Government took distinctly this ground, that he thought they ought to abide by the recommendation of the Commission which had carefully weighed this matter. The noble Earl who had just sat down did not endeavour to shelter his opposition under the self-same shield, but in fact confuted everything which the noble Marquess had advanced, because he said that he was anxious to see these impropriate tithes taken from the right rev. Bench and given to the parochial clergy, who so much more needed them. Now this would be an entire departure from the most fundamental principle and recommendation of the Commission. The Commission went on the very opposite principle—viz., that they would not take the estate and properties of bishops, and convert them to another most important but still dissimilar use, viz., that of providing for the parochial clergy. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners laid down as a principle that there should be two funds—a fund for improving the incomes

1295
of the parochial clergy, and a fund which should go to make the episcopacy of England more completely efficient; and the noble Earl wished to overturn that fundamental principle. Now he thought it of considerable importance that the grounds of this Motion should be distinctly understood, and after the speech of the noble Earl it was absolutely essential; till that time, he had thought the question was confined to the principle the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) had stated. In much of what the noble Marquess had stated, he (the Bishop of Oxford) heartily agreed; and for much of it he, with his right rev. Brethren, tendered him his sincere thanks; but the pleasure and gratitude he felt were in some little degree diminished when the noble Earl seemed to explain away and unsay what had been said by the head of the Government in that House; and it was with great regret that he had heard the qualifications and retractations from the noble Marquess's speech which seemed to be delivered from the Treasury bench. The noble Marquess took the ground which had been commonly taken, that the Commissioners had thoroughly considered the subject, and had agreed to a great and consistent scheme, and that their Lordships could not agree to the Motion of the noble Earl without upsetting that scheme—that it was most important not to upset it—and that, therefore, their Lordships should reject the Bill of the noble Earl. That argument had two or three distinct phases. They were told that this Commission, including in its numbers members of the right reverend Bench, most respected, and whose age was highly calculated to add weight and efficiency to their recommendations, had approved of this scheme; and yet, when they came to particulars, they found it stated that the vote of the right rev. Primate would not be given at all, and the vote of the venerable Archbishop of the Northern Province would be given in favour of the Motion of his noble Friend. As to the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of London), they had heard his speech upon the question. Their Lordships had heard the right rev. Prelate say, with a moral courage which did him the highest honour, that he agreed to the report, because at the moment he had under the pressure of alarm not acted on the dictates of that common sense which would have led him to a different conclusion. The right rev. Prelate added that there should be no present deficiency in the payment of the Bishop of Manchester: he
1296
said (and if the House knew fully all which was meant by that engagement, they would honour highly the liberality by which it was dictated) that he would pledge himself that the deficiency should be made up. After-thoughts and wider experience had brought the individual Members of the Commission whose authority had been pleaded round to the other side. Then it was said, the report of the Commission was a great whole, and must stand or fall together. A noble Lord argued that the improvements introduced by this Commission had reconciled the people to the Church of England. But so far as regarded most of the sees, the alterations were still in futurity; there was only a recorded judgment that, under certain circumstances, such and such things should be done. But the recommendation in the present instance was but a collateral recommendation, so that the argument from the grand totality of the report fell to the ground, just as the argument from the individual weight of the Members of the Commission had fallen; it simply amounted to an opinion expressed by certain Commissioners in respect to a future given time, when certain alterations were to be made. But before that time had arrived the very Commissioners themselves had changed their opinions upon the subject. The argument drawn by them from the Commissioners' Report, which went so far as to say that it settled the whole question, was one which he could never recognise. They were bound to give a just decision upon the question now, as if it had been de novo brought before their Lordships, because in fact it was before them as a de novo question, inasmuch as it had never been fully carried into effect. Instead, then, of their being called upon to reverse the decision of the right rev. Prelates, pursuant to the Commissioners' Report, their Lordships were now rather called upon to help them in carrying out their second thoughts, which experience told them were the best thoughts in the best of men. The real question was, should there ever or should there never be an increase of the English episcopate? It had been said that if such an increase were to take place, it would be better to make that increase by one comprehensive measure, which should effect at once all that was on general grounds needful. The whole experience of all men, in all matters of policy, pointed to an opposite conclusion. A great existing institution like the Church of England was to be amended, not by affirming certain abstract principles, which

1297
were afterwards to be carried out by one grand and comprehensive measure, but by removing admitted abuses and meeting admitted wants. Now it was admitted on all hands that it was for the interest of religion that a bishopric should at once be established at Manchester. Why, then, should they hesitate in effecting so far this practical amendment, by performing at once their duty in this respect? He begged leave to remind their Lordships of the circumstances attending the introduction of the Reform Act into Parliament. Did they not know that what more than all irritated the mind of the people of England upon that subject was the refusal of that House, when a definite evil was pointed out, to give representatives to Birmingham? Let their Lordships, in like manner, affirm to-night, in this instance, that there should not be an increase in the English episcopacy, while they admitted that Manchester required the appointment of a bishop, and their proceedings would create a feeling of hostility amongst those who from their deep interest in that question were watching their movements with particular interest. While the noble Earl (Earl Grey) admitted that he saw no objection to an increase in the number of bishops here, with no qualification of any kind—and he (the Bishop of Oxford) rejoiced in that admission, even although it was only as an abstract proposition—yet he afterwards told them that before such an increase could be made, something more important should be done; but this was altogether incompatible with the other act, and put off the doing of the first to an indefinite period. This grand abstraction was, therefore, to be admitted as theory, and not as a practical principle to be at once carried out into effect. Another argument had been used which pointed in the same direction. It was said that, granted an increase were wanted, yet, when these two sees were so very small, why should they be retained? They however, extended over a space of 3,000 square miles, broken with mountain chains, and divided by such natural impediments as to make it impossible to pass conveniently from one part of it to another; the people peculiar in their habits and language, peculiar in their poverty, peculiarly needing the shepherd's care and the pastor's diligence. The criterion applied to this question was taken from the existing state of English dioceses. It therefore assumed that their state was perfect; and so that they needed no increase. But on the Continent, what was the number of bishops of that Roman
1298
Catholic persuasion which agreed with the members of the Church of England in holding episcopacy to be of apostolical origin? In France, before the Revolution, for 28,000,000 millions of people, there were 145 bishops: since the Revolution, for a population twice as large as that of England, there were three times as large a number of bishops. For 10,000,000 or 12,000,000 of a population in Spain, there were 60 bishops. In Greece, 35 bishops. It might be said that the former of these were Roman Catholic countries. But let them come to this country at the period of the great reformers of religion amongst us—those true-hearted men, whom he loved and venerated in his heart—who lived in the time of Henry VIII. and Elizabeth. Did they remember the sentiments of Latimer — that honest-hearted man, who spoke in his strong Saxon dialect, words to which all England as one man responded. That venerated man said that the bishops, by their fewness, were raised to such a height above the people as had deprived them of the power of exercising those functions which were inherent in their office, and the first measure of reform which ought to be carried was one for giving a great increase to the number of those bishops. In the time of Henry VIII. it was proposed to add twenty new sees, so as to make in all seventy, the number of the population being then between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000; yet, at the present day, with a population of 18,000,000, they had only twenty-six. One of the arguments used against the increase in the number of bishoprics was, that in olden times they had more want of them than in these days, because that locomotion and the readiness and rapidity of communication had so facilitated the power of progress from place to place, as to render a fewer number of them necessary. But he denied that the utility of the bishop consisted in his passing rapidly from place to place, or mainly in his mere performance of certain acts, or settling legal questions for his clergy. It was not in such ways that the bishop fulfilled his duties. He should show himself to be what he was, the pastor of pastors. Wherever want was most pressing, wherever disease was most fearful, wherever the voice and the consolation of religion were most needed, it was there that the bishop should be found leading the van—it was there he should be found as the unfaltering leader, setting the example to others how they should act. But how were the bishops to do all this if they were to be,

1299
as now, affected and oppressed with secular cares, which hung heavily upon men of the highest aspirations, who fain would set their minds upon things of the other world? After all, the bishops were but men; and if they were bound down by business until their minds were filled full with secular affairs—until they were overburdened and weighed down by secularities—how could they fulfil their office—be more than other men discharging the great mission of the Church of England to this great people? No man could look upon what was passing in the country without admitting that unless something should be done to extend the knowledge and practice of religion amongst the mass of the population, their laws would be as cobwebs to bind the people when under the pressure of severe affliction or great distress. In such trying seasons, the surest and the only curb upon the multitude was the restraining, purifying power of true religion; and no man who considered deeply the condition of an irreligious people could fail to see that society stood at this very moment upon the thin and trembling crust of some struggling volcano. Without religion, law was useless to restrain the tumultuous swellings of a troubled nation. But unless they (the bishops) were enabled to exhibit their character and perform their mission, how could they lead the people as they should be led? It had been said by a noble Lord that they wanted parish priests more than bishops; but the history and experience of all the past showed that the best way to increase the number of the parish priests was to increase the bishops. How vain had been all their past efforts in these Colonies to advance the morals and religion of the people, until they had sent out bishops to them. What were the results of such a course in their West India Colonies, and in Van Diemen's Land? After they had sent out bishops to these places, the priests increased around them, and society throughout its whole mass was visibly pervaded by a better influence. To those around him who belonged upon conviction to the English Church, he would say, they believed that this system which they followed was from God: let them show something of their faith by the real strength of their exertions, and they would soon see the certain efficacy of their measures. If they constituted their great cities the seats of bishops, they would reap the most signal blessing to the country from their exertions, and those of the clergy, who would be sure to gather in sufficient num-
1300
ber around them. He believed that nothing would be more calculated to strengthen the Government in that House, than if the noble Marquess who was its representative there, gave to the measure of his noble Friend a generous support, and thereby aided the effort which the Church was making for its self-development and improvement. He was aware that there were many noble Lords in that House who differed from the Church of England—he respected their conscientious opinions and convictions—but he called upon them to respect their conscientious opinions also: he did not call upon them to aid him in taxing the people to support a Church, although that Church was the Church of fifteen out of eighteen millions of people, but he called upon them to extend to them that power which was possessed already by themselves, of developing freely the strength of their own system. Infidelity, they must all allow, was more by far than a less perfect form of Christianity; and for the sake of the common truth which they all held, he called upon them not to impede them when they sought to increase the machinery and extend the usefulness of the English clergy. He should give his cordial support to the Bill of the noble Earl.
EARL POWIS, in reply, assured their Lordships that he would occupy their time very shortly. The speech of the noble Earl (Earl Grey) would have required observation from him had it not been followed by the able and eloquent speech of the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Oxford), a speech worthy of the honoured name he bore, and the effect of which he (Earl Powis) was unwilling to diminish. He must, however, say a few words with reference to what had fallen from his noble Friend (Lord Stanley), with whom he differed with regret, especially upon a question where the interests of the Church were at stake. His noble Friend attributed to him an attempt to draw a line of distinction between the North and South Wales dioceses; and argued that, in arranging the dioceses of England and Wales anew, inconvenience must necessarily result to some particular districts, as had, in fact, happened with regard to these sees; but that, taken as a whole, Wales had its due share of episcopal superintendence. He differed from his noble Friend both in his reasonings and his conclusions. He had not originated the distinction between the sees of North and South Wales. The distinction had been made by his noble Friend, and by Parliament. The two

1301
sees of St. Asaph and Bangor were amply endowed: those of St. David's and Llandaff required augmentation. The Commissioners required an endowment for Manchester, and therefore united St. Asaph and Bangor, in order to obtain an income for Manchester. They listened to the objections against the union of Bristol with Llandaff, which gave them a surplus income, and not to those against the union of St. Asaph with Bangor. In proof of his position he referred their Lordships to the first report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners which proposed to give over the surplus income of St. Asaph and Bangor to the augmentation of their poorer vicarages. This was reversed by the subsequent reports; and by the Order in Council (which carried into effect the 6th and 7th Will. IV. cap. 77) of December 12, 1838, the surplus was given over nominally to St. David's and Llandaff, but really to the Episcopal Fund, which, thus relieved from the necessity of providing for those dioceses, was enabled to endow Manchester. The Commissioners thus avoided the outcry and unpopularity which the destruction of St. Asaph would have caused, by mixing it up with the creation of the bishopric of Manchester, and concealed the abstraction of the revenues of St. Asaph for the purpose of endowing Manchester, by nominally appropriating the surplus to St. David's and Llandaff. But this method of dealing with North Wales was not limited to its bishoprics. The deaneries of North Wales, which were well endowed, were reduced to 700 l. per annum; whilst English deaneries were fixed at 1,000 l. Deaneries were created in South Wales, where they did not exist, and were endowed out of the general fund; to supply which the incomes of the deaneries of North Wales were reduced to 700 l. Again, the sinecure rectories, of which nearly half existed in the single diocese of St. Asaph, were swept into the general fund, instead of being appropriated, as the Commissioners recommended in their third and fourth reports, to the dioceses in which they existed. He would not, at that hour, further detain their Lordships by additional observations, but would earnestly press this important Church case on their attention and favour.
On Question, that "now" stand part of the Motion, House divided: — Contents 38; Non-Contents 28: Majority 10.
Resolved in the affirmative.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, after the decision of the House it was not
1302
his intention to offer any further opposition to the measure. The noble Earl would take his own course as to the expediency of proceeding with the Bill. He wished it merely to be understood that if he did not continue his opposition it was not because he had altered his conviction on the subject.—House adjourned.