Sitting of 6 February 1846

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT. For Suffolk (Eastern Division), v. Lord Henniker, Chiltern Hundreds.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Liverpool, Penrith, Lancaster, and Wigton, against Enrolment of the Militia.—From James Haughton, against raising Revenue on Intoxicating Drinks.—From Elton (8 Petitions), in favour of the Factories Bill.—From Westbourne, Rye, Eaglesham, and Ilminster, for Repeal of the Corn Laws.

RAILWAYS.
LORD G. SOMERSETrose to call the attention of the House to the first Report of the Select Committee appointed to consider the mode in which the House should deal with Railway Bills in the present Session. Two points had to be brought under consideration. In the first place, with regard to Irish Railway Bills, it was the opinion of the Committee that great

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facility would be afforded to them by having them considered first in the House of Lords; if one of those Bills originated in the House of Commons, and another in the House of Lords, it might not be possible properly to consider one Bill until the other arrived from the House in which it was introduced. In the next place, with regard to those Bills which had reached a certain point last Session, but were prevented from receiving the consideration of the other House, it was thought that, though the number was very small, it was of great importance to the parties to retain their privilege of not having to go through all their evidence again before the House of Commons, and, at the same time, it would be very unfair if any rival Bills now introduced were not to be considered in the House of Lords at the same time. In the case of this class of Bills, therefore, as well as the Irish Bills, the Committee recommended that facility be granted by their being introduced into the House of Lords at once. As to any other Bills, the Committee gave no opinion. These two classes had seemed entitled to a separate consideration. In the case of the Irish Bills the Committee felt that there was so great a demand for employment, that it was right to facilitate their passing speedily. The noble Lord then moved the further consideration of the Report brought up on the previous evening.
MR. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCHsaid, he wished to offer a few words to the House on the subject of the Motion of the noble Lord, which appeared to him particularly to affect two classes of Railway Bills—namely, Irish Bills, and such as in this country were in the same class as the London and York Bill. In these cases it was proposed by the plan suggested, that they should commence in the House of Lords. Now he objected to that first part of the Resolution which rendered it compulsory on the promoters of such measures as had completed all their arrangements for proceeding before the House of Commons, to commence their Parliamentary course in the Lords. He did not see why the Irish Bills should meet with any particular favour or encouragement over English or Scotch Bills; neither could he conceive why Irish Bills should be placed in any situation different from that of English and Scotch Bills. He did not want this announcement made with such a flourish of trumpets that Irish business was to be given a greater facility than any other, and that this would be advantageous for Ireland.
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He denied that there was any substantial advantage to be derived from the proposed change. It appeared to him that this putting the Irish Bills first into the House of Lords would not facilitate their passing. He wished to ask the noble Lord, whether it would be necessary, before any Bill went through the House of Lords, for the promoters of it to show that the Standing Orders of the House of Commons had been complied with. He found in the Report, that after a Bill, having originated in the House of Lords, had been brought down to the Commons, and read a first time, it was recommended that it should be referred to the Committee on Petitions to ascertain whether it had or not substantially complied with the Standing Orders of the Commons. He would be glad to know what a substantial compliance with the Standing Orders meant. There was a difference in the practice of both Houses with respect to the proofs of compliance. The services of notices, lodgment of plans and sections, and all that was preliminary, might be proved in one place by the certificate of an assistant barrister. That was not the case in the other respect; but in many cases forty or fifty people had to be brought, at an immense expense, to prove that which ought to be admitted upon producing an affidavit sworn before a judge. This was the point wherein a material benefit might be conferred upon Ireland, and here was a matter to which the attention of the Legislature had never properly directed itself, but which would be calculated to do great service to the people of Ireland. He had before suggested the expediency of doing something to meet this evil, but it had not been taken up as he wished.
MR. BERNALsaid, the labours of the Committees were only in their infancy, or perhaps merely yet in parturition. He rather approved of the proposition contained in the Resolutions with respect to those Bills which were to be originated in the House of Lords, and felt inclined to waive any objections of a technical character which he might otherwise have felt towards the adoption of such a course. But with respect to the preference which was to be given to the Irish Bills, he confessed he could see neither the justice, the advantage, the policy, nor the utility of such a mode of proceeding. There was at present a great desire in the public mind of this country to know for certain what railway projects would be perfected, and what would not. And if this plan for preferring

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the Irish Railway Bills to the English and Scotch were to be proceeded in, they might do great injustice to a large portion of the community of this country. The House should recollect the large amount of deposits which was that day paid into the Bank of England—an amount which could scarcely be less than 11½ millions, exclusive of the amount to be paid on Irish and Scotch Bills; and they should consider the effect of having this large sum of money thus, as it were, locked up from the industry of the country. He confessed he was disappointed in the Report. He did not think that the English or Scotch labourers would jump at these measures for facilitating the passing of Railway Bills as such a great boon. It appeared to him a mistaken delusion to suppose that the construction of railways would give a good deal of employment to the poor. If there was such great employment to be had here in England, there would be a large influx of Irish labourers come over to compete with them. What the people of Ireland wanted most particularly was food. What he would like to see the noble Lord opposite, and the Railway Committee with whom he acted, come down to that House to propose, would be some plan for limiting the expense of English railways. There should be some means devised for lessening the enormous costs of those proceedings, which went on from day to day, from week to week, and from month to month; and this was the chief and most important consideration to which the attention of the Committee should be particularly directed.
The O'CONNOR DONhoped the House would permit him to make an observation or two, in consequence of what had fallen from his hon. Colleague. It was well known how impossible it was to satisfy every one; but he thought it only his duty, as an Irish Member, to state, in his place in the House, that both the Committee of the Lords and that of the Commons had manifested the greatest anxiety to meet the exigency at present unfortunately existing in Ireland. They both considered that it would be of great importance dining the period intervening between May and August next, that provision should be made for the condition of the people through the medium of employment; and they had conceived that if, by the facilitating of Irish Railway Bills through Parliament, employment would be thus secured for the poor, it would be of much service to do so. They had felt those reasons for giving increased
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facility to Irish Railway Bills weigh strongly with them; but while they did so they by no means wished to throw any impediments in the progress of English or Scotch Bills. The Committee had considered then that the Irish railways might be advanced were they originated in the House of Lords. With respect to what the hon. Member who last spoke had said, about an influx of Irish labourers coming upon England, he could only observe that it would be much better for the Irish labourer to be employed at home, and near his own family, than anywhere else. He could not but feel the greatest possible sympathy and compassion with the condition of many of his poorer fellow countrymen, which, from the accounts he lately received from Sligo and other parts, must be very wretched and distressed. The reports of the prevalence of the potato disease were but too well founded. The poor labouring people of Ireland wanted only employment that would fairly remunerate them, and not any gratuitous charity. The promotion of railways would give them that, and therefore he approved of any course which might tend to that effect.
MR. AGLIONBYsaid, one object was quite clear in the present Resolutions, and it was one that every Member of the House, he believed, would concur in, that it was expedient to afford every facility to the passing of Irish Railway Bills through the Legislature. But then came the question, do you give these facilities by the proposed measures? It was recommended by the Resolutions that all Irish Railway Bills should commence in the House of Lords. The hon. Member for Roscommon, who ought to know something of the matter, being an Irish Representative, said that this object of facilitating the passing of such Irish Bills would not be effected by such a course. He had been on a Railway Committee that day, before which an Irish Bill had come in its preliminary stages. He would ask the noble Lord opposite, and the Railway Committee who acted with him, would they not attain their object better by not compelling such promoters of Irish Railway Bills as were ready at present to go before the Commons, to commence in the Lords? Would it not be more advisable to allow such to commence in that House, as they were prepared to do? If it was true that it was easier to originate a Bill in the Commons than the Lords, he would ask them not to compel the adoption of the latter course.
SIR G. CLERKwas at a loss to know what possible impediment was thrown in the way of an Irish Railway Bill by appointing its commencement in the Lords instead of the Commons. It was said that it would be more expensive to adopt this course, particularly with Bills which were ready to go before the House of Commons. This allegation he could not concur in. It should be recollected the length of time which should elapse between different stages of the Bill. There was another point to be considered in discussing the present question, and that was the great inconvenience and awkwardness which might result from the fact of the House of Commons giving its consent to one Bill, and the House of Lords doing the same with respect to a competing line. Now, if there was no competing line, and if a Bill was obliged to pass through the ordeal of the two Houses, no substantial injustice could be done to the parties by beginning their case before one tribunal sooner than another; and the whole of the terms of the Standing Orders of both Houses should be complied with. Under such circumstances, he considered no practical inconvenience whatever could ever arise from these propositions.
MR. ROSSsuggested that all Bills which had made any progress in that House, with the exception of Bills relating to competing lines, should be allowed to be proceeded with; and that all Bills relating to competing lines, or which had not made any progress in that House, should be referred immediately to the House of Lords.
MR. GREENEsaid that Bills could not be placed in a worse position, by their being immediately referred to the House of Lords. Many Bills would probably be brought back from the House of Lords at as early a period as the consideration of them could be commenced in the House of Commons.
MR. COLLETTwished to remind the House that the promoters of railways could not commence the works until some months after they had obtained their Bills. He thought that the Government ought to take some means for further expediting the progress of railway business.
The first two Resolutions were agreed to:—

"1. Resolved—That with respect to any Railway Bills which shall be brought from the House of Lords during this Session, this House will not insist on their privilege with regard to the Clauses fixing and regulating rates and tolls in such Bills.

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"2. Resolved—That with a view of affording early and increased means of employment in Ireland, it is expedient to give facilities for the early consideration of Irish Railway Bills; and that, for the attainment of this object, all such Railway Bills should, in the present Session, commence in the House of Lords."

The Third Resolution having been put,
MR. BECKETT DENISONthought that Resolution would, if adopted, lead to very unfair results. It was proposed by that Resolution that "all Bills which compete with, or ought to be considered in connexion with, any Bills, the promoters of which shall prove themselves entitled to the privileges agreed to be granted in certain cases by the Resolutions of this House of the 7th July last, shall commence in the House of Lords." Now, the result of that Resolution would be, that the London and York Bill, which had passed that House, would be placed in a more unfavourable position than the competing schemes which they had last year rejected; for the promoters of those competing schemes would have had an opportunity of altering their Bills since last Session, and could at once launch them in the House of Lords. In fact they would have the same privileges in the House of Lords as if they had passed the Commons in the present Session. There were at present two schemes competing with the London and York line—namely, the Direct Northern, and the lines from Cambridge to York. There were but two lines from London to York under the consideration of the Committee of that House last Session; and as that Committee had sat during eighty days, he was much afraid that the Committee of the House of Lords, which would have three projects to consider, might have to sit 120 days. But he had risen for the purpose of stating that, although he was convinced that the Select Committee had been actuated by an earnest desire to discharge their duties impartially, the Resolution then before the House might produce very unfair results.
MR. WARDbelieved that the Resolution would operate fairly for all parties. There had been a complaint last year that the Select Committee of that House had been unable, from want of time, to hear the whole of the evidence in the case referred to their consideration. It had been said, however, that there was a place of refuge for the discontented parties—namely, the House of Lords. The three schemes of communication between London and York were at present about to be brought before

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a Committee of the Lords; and he believed that by that means justice would be best done to all the parties interested, and the advantage of the public would be best promoted, The subject was one of immense importance: the line of communication in question involved a larger outlay than any other project then before Parliament; and it was evidently desirable that it should undergo the fullest investigation.
MR. BECKETT DENISONwished to observe, that the projects now competing with the London and York line were not the same as the projects competing with it last Session. If they had been the same, he should not on that occasion have uttered one word of complaint.
LORD G. SOMERSETbelieved that by that Resolution the public interest would be promoted, while ample justice would be done to all the parties interested. It was quite clear that as the other House of Parliament had not yet considered the London and York, or any of the competing schemes, they must, under any circumstances, have before them all the rival projects. His opinion was that the course proposed was the course which would be most advantageous for the promoters of the London and York line, if that line were the best. The public would also be benefited by a thorough investigation of the different proposed schemes of communication between London and York.
SIR H. W. BARRONwished to remind the House and the Government that it was impossible that the works on a line could be commenced at an earlier period than three months after a Bill had been obtained. In the first place, there must be calls made, and notices given of those calls; in the second place, possession of the ground must be got, which involved a very tedious process; and, in the third place, there must be contracts advertised, so that a considerable time would necessarily elapse before the works on any railway could be commenced. The House would, therefore, be deceived if they thought they could give employment in Ireland during the spring, or early in the summer, by passing any Railway Bill this Session in a manner consistent with the usual forms of the House; for it would then be impossible that the works could be commenced before August or September next.
The remaining Resolutions, as follows, were agreed to:—
"3. Resolved—That all Bills which compete with
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or ought to be considered in connexion with any Bills, the promoters of which shall prove themselves entitled to the privileges agreed to be granted in certain cases by the Resolutions of this House of the 7th July last, shall commence in the House of Lords.
"4. Resolved—That the parties promoting Railway Bills which, by the above Resolutions, are to commence in the House of Lords, may (notwithstanding any proceeding respecting such Bills in the House of Lords) prove before the Committee on Petitions of the House of Commons that they have complied with the Standing Orders of this House, and the Report of such Committee shall be ordered to lie on the Table. If the Committee should report that the Standing Orders have not been complied with, their Report shall be referred to the Committee on Standing Orders, whose Report shall be ordered to lie on the Table.
"5. Resolved—That when a Railway Bill shall have been brought from the Lords, it shall be read a first time, and referred to the Select Committee on Petitions for Private Bills, who shall report whether the Standing Orders have been complied with, or whether any Report with reference to substantially the same Bill has been previously laid on the Table of the House."

BRAZILIAN SUGAR TRADE.
MR. LABOUCHERErepeated the question which he had put to the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government yesterday, viz., whether the British Government or Legislature had taken any steps of a retaliatory nature, in consequence of the duties upon their sugar as competing with free-labour sugar which had been adopted by this country?
SIR R. PEEL: I wished to postpone giving an answer to the question when put to me yesterday, in order that in answering it I might be able to state exactly the position in which our relations stand with respect to our commercial intercourse with Brazil. In the month of January, 1845, the Brazilian Legislature passed a law which empowered the Brazilian Executive, in its discretion, to impose upon the vessels of those States which had not given the Brazilian vessels the same facilities of intercourse which were given to native vessels, discriminating duties. The Brazilian Legislature also passed a law authorizing the Government to impose discriminating duties to the prejudice of those countries which did not admit Brazilian produce on the footing of the most favoured nation. The Brazilian Executive had, by that act of the Brazilian Legislature, the power of imposing discriminating duties unfavourable to this country; but the Brazilian Government have not yet acted upon that power, and up to this period we have had no intimation of their intention to act upon it.

ELECTRIC TELEGRAPH.
MR. JAMESsaid, he had given notice of a question which he intended to put to the Secretary of the Admiralty; but he had received a communication from that hon. Gentleman, stating that he had gone out of town, but that the right hon. Member for Ripon would be in his place and give him a reply. He begged, therefore, to ask that right hon. Baronet, whether the attention of the First Lord of the Admiralty had been directed to an electric telegraph recently invented by a scientific gentleman of the name of Knott? The machinery of this telegraph, as he understood, was of so simple a nature, was so much less complicated, and less liable to get out of order, than any other telegraph hitherto invented; and could be got, besides, at comparatively so cheap a cost, that it would be of great importance, not only to the Admiralty service, but to the interests of the country at large. He was given to understand that the late First Lord of the Treasury (Lord Haddington), after Dr. Faraday, with the principal Engineer on the London and Birmingham Railway, and other scientific gentlemen, had reported favourably of it, had given orders to the officers of the establishment over which he had control to make a special report on the subject. Such a report, he understood, was made by Captain Brandon and General Pasley; and he wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman would have any objection to state the nature of that report, or whether he would have any objection to lay it on the Table of the House?
SIR G. COCKBURNreplied, that it was quite true that Mr. Knott did propose certain alterations or improvements in the electric telegraph, and that the Lords of the Admiralty had requested Captain Brandon and General Pasley to examine it and report upon it, which they had both done unfavourably. General Pasley considered it to be substantially on the same principle as the telegraph at present in use, but with some variations of an inferior kind. General Pasley had likewise stated that Mr. Knott appeared to be little acquainted with the principle of the telegraph, and that, therefore, it would not be wise in the Government to induce him to put himself, and certainly it would not be wise to put the country, to any additional expense on the subject.
MR. JAMESwas much obliged to the right hon. Baronet for the information. He understood, decidedly, that Dr. Faraday
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was in favour of Mr. Knott's improvement, and that he considered it much more simple and much less likely to get out of order than the other. If it were not so, he could only say he had been deceived.
House adjourned at seven o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. Administration of Criminal Justice.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Owners and Occupiers of Land, and others interested in the welfare of Agriculture in the Parish of Capel St. Mary, and several other places, in favour of the Corn Laws.

PETITION OF MR. GRAHAM.
LORD BEAUMONT, seeing the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in his place, wished to call his attention to a subject in relation to which he had presented a petition to their Lordships in the course of last week. The petition was from Mr. H. Graham, who complained that while travelling in Italy, after having had his passport properly visé at Marseilles, he was nevertheless compulsorily detained by the police of the Sardinian Government at Nice; that he was detained there twenty-four hours; and when his passport was returned no explanation was given further than that his name was Graham. Since that period he had received neither apology nor indemnification for the loss he had sustained by his detention: and the only reason for it which was known to him was, that he bore the odious name of Graham—odious, he meant, in Sardinia. As he understood the noble Earl had thought it his duty to correspond with the Sardinian Government upon the subject, he begged to ask him whether there was any prospect of Mr. Graham being indemnified for his detention, or of any apology being made for it?
The EARL of ABERDEEN, in reply, said he had had some correspondence with the Sardinian Government upon this subject, and also with the gentleman to whom the noble Lord alluded. It was perfectly true that it was in consequence of his name that this gentleman had been subjected to the inconvenience which had been described. There was no better name in Britain than that which this gentleman had the good fortune to bear; at the same time no name was so good as necessarily to preserve those who bore it from occasionally disgracing it. In the present case it appeared that some person of the name of Graham had been guilty of a very extensive system of forgery and swindling in Belgium, and that the Belgian Government considered it their duty to follow him over different parts of Europe. The Sardinian Government was desired by the Belgian Government to take care of persons of this name. At Nice this gentleman appeared with a regular passport he (the Earl of Aberdeen) believed; but the commissary of police detained him for twenty-four hours in his hotel. Afterwards, when

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the mistake was discovered, the gentleman's carriage-money was paid, in order to make amends for the loss he had sustained—the only loss he (the Earl of Aberdeen) had heard of—the loss of his carriage-money, from Nice to Genoa. He was only detained twenty-four hours. The gentleman so detained, in consequence of the mistake in the name of Graham, had claimed a pecuniary indemnity for the insult; but he (the Earl of Aberdeen) confessed it did not appear to him that he should be justified, under the circumstances, in making any claim on the Sardinian Government for pecuniary indemnification. Had Mr. Graham been a mechanic or an artisan, possibly something of the kind might have been done; but as the mistake had been so perfectly explained, and as no intention whatever existed of inflicting any injury or insult upon him, he (the Earl of Aberdeen) thought there was no reason to make a claim for pecuniary indemnification. Under these circumstances, and with this explanation, he had informed Mr. Graham that he could make no such effort.
LORD BEAUMONTbegged to ask the noble Earl whether the Sardinian Government had tendered any apology?
The EARL of ABERDEENreplied in the negative. An explanation had been received, but no direct apology, the omission of which he regretted, for he thought an apology was due. At the same time, judging from the style of this gentleman's letters, he could readily believe that the personal communication which had taken place between him (Mr. Graham) and the Sardinian authorities, did not tend much to render them very ready to make an apology, which under other circumstances he supposed they would have done.

RAILWAY BILLS.
First Report of the Select Committee on Railway Bills considered and agreed to.
The EARL of DALHOUSIEsaid, he rose to move an alteration in the Standing Order No. 224, of which he had given notice last night. In submitting to their Lordships, the other evening, a statement with regard to the amount of railway business likely to come before this and the other House of Parliament, he had endeavoured to set before them the difficulties of dealing with the subject during the present Session. These difficulties were of a twofold character. One difficulty was, the apparent impossibility of finding Committees sufficiently numerous to transact all the
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railway business before the House, or, at all events, sufficiently numerous to transact it with satisfaction to the country; and the other difficulty arose from the gigantic amount of capital involved in the schemes to be brought forward. The Committee appointed by their Lordships met immediately after their appointment, and they had met almost daily since that time. They had considered the subject closely, upon such information as could be furnished to them in the present stage of the proceedings. It appeared to the Committee, in the first place, that it was in their power to suggest such alterations in the mode of transacting business between the two Houses of Parliament as would facilitate the despatch of business, be extremely convenient to those interested, and at the same time be conducive to the interests of the public. Their Lordships were aware that, according to invariable practice, all Railway Bills commenced in the other House, the disadvantage of which had been felt by the public, and certainly very much by their Lordships. The necessary effect had been that for the first two or three months of the Session their Lordships had been left without employment for their Committees; and, on the other hand, they had been overwhelmed by the number of Bills heaped upon them all at once towards the close of the Session. Their Lordships had, in consequence, been blamed for their apparent idleness at the commencement of the Session, in not transacting business which in fact was not then sent up to them; and at the end they were equally blamed for the apparent haste and slovenliness with which they had disposed of the business when they got it, and which must be discussed with speed, if it were to be transacted at all. The result of the consideration of their Lordships' Select Committee on Railways had therefore been to recommend to their Lordships such an alteration of the Standing Orders as had become necessary, in order to meet the arrangements made for the purpose of facilitating business with advantage to the public interests. Their Lordships would see by the Votes that the Committee of the other House, appointed for a similar purpose to their Lordships' Committee, had reported a recommendation, that during the present Session a certain portion of Railway Bills should have their commencement in their Lordships' House. It then became a matter of consideration what would be a convenient division to make; and it appeared that

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Railway Bills connected with Ireland, should be considered by their Lordships' House in the first instance, inasmuch as it presented a broad line of demarcation, which did not admit of a doubt as to the Bills which should fall under that particular class. He was sure that there was no noble Lord who would not feel that at the present moment there were additional reasons for giving every facility for providing means of employment in Ireland, and that it was desirable, therefore, that all the Railway Bills which Parliament should think proper to pass for Ireland, during the present Session, should pass as speedily as possible. The Committee of the House of Commons had accordingly recommended that all Irish Railway Bills should have their origin in their Lordships' House during the present Session. At this point, however, a peculiar difficulty arose. Previous to last Session, and in last Session, the amount of the deposit required was 5 per cent. upon the subscribed capital. In the other House, however, previous to the close of last Session, an alteration in the Standing Orders was proposed, requiring a deposit of 10 per cent.; but with respect to all Railway Bills which were provisionally registered, or where certain other steps had been taken previous to the 29th of July an exception was made, and in such cases 5 per cent. deposit only was required. A similar alteration of the Standing Orders was proposed in their Lordships' House; but their Lordships, by a distinct manifestation of opinion, refused to accede, and the consequence was that their Lordships required with respect to every Railway Bill, without distinction, a deposit of 10 per cent. during this Session. Now, a very large portion of the Irish Railway Bills fell within the exception of the House of Commons, and were admissible there on the payment of 5 per cent. deposit. It would therefore be hard on the promoters of those Bills that they should be compelled to commence in that House, and then should be refused admission there on the same terms as they were admissible in the House of Commons. Their Lordships' Committee, therefore, recommended such an alteration of the Standing Orders as, while it virtually fulfilled the condition which their Lordships required, of the payment of a deposit of 10 per cent., would nevertheless, by a slight alteration, place the promoters of these Bills in the same position as they would now stand in were they introduced into the House of Commons. The Committee, therefore, recom-
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mended that no Railway Bill whatever, should be read a first time, unless 5 per cent. deposit should have been paid on or before the 6th of February; and that no such Bill should be read a third time unless a further deposit of 5 per cent. should be paid; thus making the whole deposit 10 per cent., the amount required by the Standing Order of their Lordships' House. He had been informed that this recommendation of the Committee had appeared to some to be at variance with the course contemplated by the House when the Committee was appointed; and that it was, in point of fact, holding out additional encouragement to railway speculation. This was an entire mistake, as their Lordships would perceive on looking at the matter for a single moment. By admitting Irish Railway Bills for consideration in their Lordships' House on the payment of 5 per cent. deposit, their Lordships were not giving to them any additional advantage beyond that which they would have enjoyed had they gone to the other House of Parliament; for all these Railway Bills were admissible there on the payment of 5 per cent. deposit. No such Bill would be admissible in their Lordships' House until the deposit of 5 per cent. should be made. Neither would there be any extension of time for the payment of this deposit, by transferring the Bills to this House; because, according to the proposed alteration of the Standing Order, their Lordships would not admit such Bills as he had referred to unless the deposit of 5 per cent. should have been paid on or before the 6th of February, that being the same day on or before which the other House of Parliament required the deposit to be made. The alteration of the Standing Order, so far as not to require the whole 10 per cent. deposit until the third reading of the Bills, was not any actual relaxation of their Lordships' rule, but was, in point of fact, merely an alteration of time, and did not give any additional facility for railway speculation; as, in the ordinary course of things, had these Bills been introduced into the House of Commons, the payment of the 10 per cent. deposit would not have been required until about the middle of the Session, when the Bills would have reached their Lordships' House, while in most cases the payment of the 10 per cent. deposit would, under the proposed alteration, be required earlier. Under all these circumstances, looking at the very great amount of business before Parliament, the great benefit

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which would be conferred upon the public by adjusting that amount of business between the two Houses; considering the importance of providing employment for the people of Ireland as early as possible; considering also that in thus proceeding they were not holding out any facilities whatever to additional speculation—that, in point of fact, all that the proposed alterations did, was to facilitate the progress of Bills through their Lordships' House, when they should have found their way there, after having complied with the conditions imposed upon their admission; but that it did not give encouragement to the creation of new railway projects, and removed no obstacle to undue speculation which that House had imposed—he did trust the House would make the proposed alteration. There was another class of Bills which the Select Committee of the other House recommended should commence in their Lordships' House. These were certain Bills with respect to which the understanding was, that as they were suspended in their progress during last Session, from want of time, they should be taken up in the present Session in the other House, and pass through there as a matter of course, and come up to their Lordships at an early time for consideration; but there were other Bills competing with these which had failed in the other House from non-compliance with the Standing Orders, or other reasons, but which had made their appearance again in the present Session. It would, therefore, be a manifest contradiction for their Lordships to be considering in their House one class of Bills, while the House of Commons and its Committee might be, at the same time, considering others immediately competing with them. The Select Committee of the House of Commons had got rid of the difficulty by recommending that all these competing Bills should be considered in the first instance in their Lordships' House; and the Standing Orders of their Lordships House which he now proposed would consequently apply to them. He had now stated the substance of the proceedings of their Lordships' Committee on these points; but with respect to another branch of the subject, he was not able to say that the Committee had yet come to any decision. They had considered the question as put before them generally, but until the period for the presentation of petitions had expired, they could not effectively or properly deal with this par-
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ticular subject. If they had determined upon it now, when the period for the admission of Bills into their Lordships' House arrived, they would then have the whole work to do over again, inasmuch as many of the Bills would probably not make their appearance. When they were in a condition to know what they had to deal with, the Committee would come to that conclusion which they deemed right. In conclusion, he begged to move that their Lordships do agree to the following Resolutions of the Select Committee:—
"Resolved—That such portion of the Standing Order No. 224, as requires from the Promoters of Railway Bills a deposit of one-tenth of the amount subscribed, should be suspended with respect to all such Railway Bills as shall commence in the House of Lords during the present Session. That no such Railway Bill shall be read a first time in this House, unless a deposit of one-twentieth part of the amount subscribed shall have been made on or before the 6th February, and no such Railway Bill shall be read a third time until a further deposit of one-twentieth part of the amount subscribed shall in like manner be made."
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he had by no means any intention of objecting to the Motion of his noble Friend; it was, indeed, impossible that he should do so, as the proposition had been made by himself in the last Session; but he wished, before the Question was put, to offer a few remarks on the subject of the alterations proposed to be made. There was so much of liability to misapprehension with respect to the proceedings of the Legislature, more especially as far as Ireland was concerned, that he would, with their Lordships' permission, claim one or two minutes of their attention in explaining the motives by which the Committee had been influenced. He was not about to discuss the policy involved in the question, as arising from the necessity of increasing inland communication in Ireland by means of railways; but he would solely confine himself to the effect which the execution of these great works would have on the labour market in the present contingency of affairs in that country. If the alterations now proposed in the Standing Orders were not made, no one of the Irish Railway Bills would, in all probability, receive the Royal Assent until late in June or July next, at the very earliest. Now, however important it might be that these Bills should pass at any period of the Session, it was clear that if they did not pass through parliament before that time, they would be utterly useless, so far as the employment of the

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people was involved in the present period of scarcity. The object of the Committee was, not only to give the promoters of these Railway Bills a pre-audience, as far as that House was concerned, but also to enable them to proceed with the works at as early a period as possible. Therefore, the Resolutions proposed by his noble Friend were deserving of the approval, not only of their Lordships, but of all who were desirous of giving employment and consequently money wages to the labouring population of Ireland. He trusted that those who were concerned in Irish Railway Bills would feel that, as far as the alterations in the Standing Orders were concerned, they not only had no reason to complain, but that their position would, in point of fact, be greatly improved in coming before the Legislature. There was one effect of these Standing Orders to which his noble Friend had not alluded—namely, the advantage of allowing the promoters of Railway Bills to prove simultaneously their compliance with the Standing Orders of both Houses of Parliament. That, he thought, was a great advantage. Hitherto, the promoters of Railway Bills were obliged to bring witnesses, perhaps from the farthest parts of Ireland or Scotland—from every place between the Land's End and John o'Groat's House, to prove compliance with a set of formal Orders before the House of Commons; and at a future period of the Session they were obliged to bring up the same witnesses again to prove a similar matter in the House of Lords. It would, he thought, be a question for their Lordships' consideration, whether, in respect of the future, this arrangement might not be made permanent; and whether the Standing Orders of both Houses of the Legislature might not be fixed on the authority of an Act of Parliament. The question of compliance or non-compliance might then be considered before the Session commenced, before some proper tribunal; and the Bills would thus be brought under the notice of Parliament without two successive tedious preliminary inquiries. It might be objected that the course which he proposed would tend to the giving of undue encouragement to railway speculation; but their Lordships ought to endeavour to discourage such speculation, not by augmenting expenses, or by throwing technical difficulties in the way of the passing of Bills through the House, but rather by examining with discrimination what Bills they allowed to pass. They
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might as well expect to prevent improper litigation by augmenting the expenses incurred in the courts of law, as to prevent speculation by increasing the difficulties of passing Bills. Before sitting down, he could not avoid again expressing his belief that there could scarcely have been committed any greater mistake than the course adopted with regard to railway deposits in the present year; he could imagine nothing more indefensible than, after permitting all parties to invest the money paid as deposits on railway shares in Government securities, to refuse permitting them to make their deposits, in the first instance, with the Accountant General in those very public funds which were accepted as their ultimate security. He knew it had been thought that any relaxation of this rule would give a benefit to railway proprietors, and that its enforcement was therefore a sort of punishment for over-speculation. But that argument was founded on an entire misapprehension of all the facts. The punishment—if it were to be called such—did not fall on railway proprietors, but on bankers and on parties connected with the mercantile interests of the country, by whom it had been felt as a very great grievance. He was informed by the conductors of one great banking establishment, that owing to the system prescribed in respect to these railway deposits, at a time when they were in possession of no less a sum than 2,000,000 l. in Exchequer Bills, they were required to make a lodgment of 1,100,000 l. to the credit of the Accountant General for railroad deposits, which sum was afterwards to be invested in Government securities; but instead of being allowed to hand over that amount in Exchequer bills, they were obliged to pay the amount in money, though that very money had immediately afterwards to be re-invested in the same security. He was convinced that if the attention of Parliament had been called to this subject in the course of last Session, the proposition to receive stock or Exchequer bills in lieu of money could not have failed to meet its immediate and unqualified approval. But the law as it now stood had produced a most severe pressure, not upon those parties whom Parliament might seek to restrain from speculation, but upon third parties, many of whom were wholly unconnected with railway projects. The result was, that mercantile accommodation had necessarily been considerably limited, and that

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the operations of the Bank had been thrown into great doubt and uncertainty. This confusion had arisen from their unfortunate legislation. He did not make any complaint against the Government with reference to this subject. It was the fault of legislation, and he hoped that mistaken legislation would speedily be amended, for he could not conceive anything more mischievous to the mercantile classes than the existing system.
The EARL of STRADBROKEsaid, although there was no probability, or, he believed, even possibility, of anything approaching to a famine being witnessed in this country, in Scotland, or in the North of Ireland, still there was great danger of famine extending in the south of Ireland. He, therefore, thought that the Railway Bills connected with that portion of the country, where employment would be most needed, ought to be first proceeded with.
Resolutions agreed to.
"Ordered—That this House will not receive any Petition for a Railway Bill after Monday the 23rd of this Instant, February."

BURDENS ON REAL PROPERTY.
LORD BEAUMONTgave notice that he would, on an early day next week, move for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the burdens affecting real property.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, he wished to be allowed to suggest, respectfully, that the example set by the Committees of the two Houses of Parliament with respect to the railway business might be followed by Her Majesty's Government in the case of other Bills. The Committee to which he alluded had suggested that certain Railway Bills should be brought forward in the first instance in the House of Lords, and it would be most advantageous if some of the many measures of a general nature intended to be brought forward by Her Majesty's Government were also introduced in their Lordships' House. At present their Lordships generally met merely to adjourn; whereas towards the end of the Session they would have more business upon their hands than any length of sitting would enable them satisfactorily to get through.
The DUKE of WELLINGTONsaid, his noble and learned Friend (Lord Brougham) had made a somewhat similar suggestion on the previous evening, which he (the Duke of Wellington) had already laid before the proper authorities, and he would take care to treat the suggestion of the
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noble and learned Lord with the same attention.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he had already laid one Bill on the Table of the House, the second reading of which had been postponed for a few days, in order to afford time for considering its provisions. He had also a second Bill ready, namely, one for the management of Charities and Religious Trusts—a subject with which his noble Friend was fully cognizant; and he would lose no time in bringing it forward, so that his noble and learned Friend might have an opportunity of amusing himself in conning it over.
LORD CAMPBELLsaid, if he were to sit up all night he could not read the number of Bills that were crowded on their Lordships' Table in the month of July. It was not, therefore, any wish for employment, but a feeling of the impossibility of properly getting through the business usually brought before their Lordships towards the close of the Session, that induced him to offer the suggestion.
The LORD CHANCELLORsaid, his noble and learned Friend knew well how to employ his leisure. He had lately favoured them with a book full of entertainment and instruction, by which he had greatly enhanced his own reputation, and conferred an important benefit on the community; and if be continued to devote his leisure hours to similar labours, the public would certainly not have much cause to regret his want of other employment.
LORD CAMPBELLrose and bowed amidst loud cheers from all parts of the House.
House adjourned.