Sitting of 25 August 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS. — 3°. and passed. Small Debts; District Lunatic Asylums (Ireland); Pawnbrokers; Waste Lands (Australia).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Milner Gibson, from Importers, Dealers, and Consumers of Foreign Coffee, praying that the Duty on Foreign Coffee, may be reduced to Fourpence per Pound.—By Viscount Ebrington, from Guardians of the Poor of the Barnet Union, in the Counties of Hertford and Middlesex, for rating Owners of Small Tenements to the Poor Rates in lieu of Occupiers.—By Viscount Morpeth, from Chemists and Druggists residing at Leeds, in the County of York, praying that the Spirit Licenses and Duties Bill may not pass into a Law.—By Viscount Morpeth, from Committee and Members of the Bridlington and Quay Mechanics' and Scientific Institution, in favour of the Corresponding Societies and Lecture Rooms Bill.—By Mr. Greene, from Medical Practitioners of Axminster and its Neighbourhood, and by Mr. Wakley, from Medical Practitioners of the Borough of Maldon and its Vicinity, and from R. M'Gowan, M.D., and others, in favour of the Medical Practitioners Bill.—By Mr. Granger, from Members of the Relief Committee of the Baronies of Kinsale and Courcies, in the County of Cork, and by Mr. Labouchere, from Inhabitants of the District of Courcies, setting forth the Total Failure of the Potato Crop, and to suggest Measures for the Relief of the Poor in Ireland during the Impending Calamities.—By Captain Pechell, from Prisoners in the Queen's Prison, complaining of Harsh and Severe Treatment from the Keeper of that Prison, and praying that he may be deprived of the Power to inflict Punishment on the Debtor without previously submitting each Case to the Secretary of State.—By Viscount Morpeth, from Booksellers, etc. of the Town of Bradford, in the County of York, and by Mr. James Oswald, from Incorporation of the Company of Stationers of Glasgow, praying the House to refuse to Railway Companies the Power sought by them to open Packets and charge for each separate Parcel therein contained.—By Mr. Aglionby, from Messrs. Holme, Loftus, and others, Attorneys at Law, praying that in case the Small Debts Bill shall pass into a Law, the Lord Chancellor may be empowered to appoint any Attorneys at Law to be Judges of the Courts to be created thereunder whom his Lordship may consider duly qualified.—By Sir Thomas Troubridge, from Mayor, Aldermen, and Burgesses of the Town and Borough of Deal, in the County of Kent, in Council assembled, praying that the Small Debts Bill may pass into a Law.—From Occupying Tenants of the Parish of Carnmoney, in the County of Antrim, against the Tenants Compensation (Ireland) Bill.—By Mr. Charles Russell, from Wholesale and Retail Traders and Residents of and in the Vicinity of Hatton Garden and Holborn Hill, in the City of London, praying the House to adopt Measures for Redeeming and Extinguishing the Tolls upon Waterloo, Southwark, and Vauxhall Bridges.

THE POOR LAW COMMISSIONERS.
MR. HUMEsaid, the House would observe, among the Notices of Motion for that day, one of nine Resolutions which he had placed on the book some time ago, with a view to giving an opportunity to the
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House to pronounce an opinion thereon. These resolutions had relation to the proceedings of the Poor Law Commissioners; and he had been induced to give notice of his intention to move those resolutions entirely from the evidence which had been brought before the District Asylums' Committee, of which he was a member, with respect to those proceedings; but, as the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department had stated that it was not the intention of the Government to allow the district asylums to proceed until the Government should have had time to consider the subject, and form an opinion thereon, it would not suit his (Mr. Hume's) purpose to proceed with the first eight of his resolutions. But, with regard to the last of his resolutions, which related more especially to the personal conduct and to the proceedings of the Commissioners, and which referred to charges against them of a very grave nature, he considered that the subject of it was so important that he should be justified in offering to the House some remarks upon it. But he did so with reluctance: he had been a warm advocate of the amended Poor Law, considering that if carried out on sound principles it was adapted to produce great good to the country; but he should not do his duty if he neglected to remark on the facts which had been developed on evidence before the District Asylums' Committee. He did not mean, at present, to refer to what had passed before the Andover Committee, because it was sufficient for his purpose to state some of the results of the evidence brought before the District Asylums' Committee; and that evidence was demonstrative, to his mind, that the Poor Law had not been properly carried out. Now this was a very grave charge; for Parliament having determined to intrust to the Commission what had often been called unconstitutional powers—powers that had never been given by the Legislature to any other body of men—powers that had always hitherto been exercised by the two Houses of Parliament, and which had only been granted on the last necessity, and to prevent the evil that then threatened to pauperize the whole of the working classes—he, among others, then agreed to give to the Commission its extraordinary powers as the only means of preventing so great an evil. But then the House had determined, when the change in the law was under discussion, that it was expedient to give these powers to a board, in order to prevent any person solely and

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singly from exercising the whole of the powers given by the amended law. Parliament had resolved that everything done by the Commission should be done by a board. Now, the evidence before the District Asylums' Committee, and indeed the evidence already on the Table of the House, proved satisfactorily that the law had been in some particulars utterly annulled by the Commissioners; for it was made out that the Commissioners were in the habit of sitting in their private rooms, and of acting without consulting with one another, and without sitting as a board, so that their proceedings had been carried on without any check from one or the other. It was on that ground, therefore, that he held that the Commissioners had grievously violated the law, and there was this further ground—for by Clause 4 of the Poor Law Amendment Act it was provided—
"That the Commissioners shall make the record of their proceedings, in which shall be entered in writing a reference to every letter received, whence, its date, the date of its reception, and the subject to which it relates, and a minute of every letter written or order given by the said Commissioners, whether in answer to such letter received, or otherwise, with the date of the same, and a minute of the opinion of each of the members of the Board of Commissioners, in case they should finally differ in opinion upon any order to be given, or other proceeding of the Board; and such record shall be submitted to one of His Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State once in every year, or as often as he shall require the same."
The last enactment was framed with a view that the record should be submitted to Parliament. Those were the safeguards that Parliament had set up against the undue exercise of the powers confided to the Board of Commissioners; but all these safeguards had been completely removed by the conduct of the Commissioners. It appeared in evidence, that from the year 1841 no secretary had sat at the board. The minutes had never been properly kept; but the minutes had been made on separate pieces of paper, and these at the end of the year had been bound up together into what they called a volume. Then at the meetings of the boards no minutes of their proceedings at the previous board had over been read, as was the practice of all other public boards; and he therefore, upon the whole, was conscientiously of opinion that the Commissioners had acted illegally, and were acting illegally, and that there was the greatest possible danger in allowing them to go on in the same course. When he recollected that he was one of those who supported the formation of a
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board, being at that time a Member for a populous county, and that no man had been more violently assailed than he had been for having given that support to this law, which had ever since been thrown up against him by those who wished to attack him, it being known that he had all along supported the Commissioners, he confessed that he had been deceived, and that the checks that had been devised by Parliament, and the control which he thought Parliament had established over the conduct of the Commissioners, were of no avail. In the Third Annual Report of the Commissioners submitted to the House in 1837, the following regulation appeared as having been made with reference to the Hatfield Union by the Poor Law Commissioners in that year:—
"Every destitute person who shall present any such ticket to the master of the workhouse shall by the said master be received as casual poor; and after a compliance with the workhouse regulations, provided for the admission of destitute persons, shall, if he or she be able-bodied or partially disabled, be set on such work as may be provided for the able-bodied or the partially disabled."
He quoted this to show the principles on which the Board had acted with reference to the question of admission to the workhouse:—
"After such person shall have performed a task of work proportioned to his or her capacity, he or she shall receive such a meal of food as is provided to be given to the regular paupers, inmates of the workhouse; and thenceforth, on the performance of the prescribed work, shall receive the same diet and he subject to the same discipline as the other paupers of the workhouse."
After having done the work, therefore, the pauper was to receive the same diet as the other able-bodied paupers in the workhouse. These regulations did, he contended, contain the true principles of the amended Poor Law, and the test that was meant to be established by it. That test was the capability of working, and that was the test that was established by the Poor Law Amendment Act of the 4th and 5th of William IV. Now the acts of the Commissioners had set at nought all these resolutions. They, as the Committee he had mentioned had decided, had systematically set at nought all these resolutions, because they had issued orders that any pauper presenting himself at the workhouse should have food. Now what was the bad effect of such a rule, sufficiently appeared by the great increase in the number of vagrants which had taken place of late. In England and Wales the number of wandering poor or paupers and vagrants

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in the whole 480 unions was in 1841, 43,000; in 1842, 78,000; in 1843, 112,000; in 1844, 118,000; in 1845, 116,000, leaving out the odd numbers. Now that statement showed that the number of vagrants had trebled pretty nearly since 1841; and how could it be otherwise than trebled when the Poor Law Commissioners issued orders in 1838 and 1839, that all persons applying for relief at a workhouse should have it, although no work was provided for the able-bodied mendicants? He took upon himself to state to the House that if the law had been carried out, it would have been signally successful. It appeared that it would have been so by the results of the instances in which it had been carried out. At the workhouse of St. Saviour's, Southwark, Mr. Hall had stated that for the three weeks before the labour test was applied, 11,111 vagrants were admitted; but in the three weeks after they were reduced to 776. With the test of labour to contend with, the vagrants, it seemed, did not choose to return to the workhouse; and that proved most completely the correctness of the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry as far as regarded this part of the subject. In the parish of Marylebone, in 1834, they had been pestered with applications for admission to the workhouse on the part of vagrants. What was the effect of the labour test in the workhouse? They had been accustomed to receive as many as 900 applications in one week; but when they applied the test of labour no more than ninety applied—all the rest disappeared. Now, all the evidence that had been lately collected proved that this application of the labour test had been systematically neglected by the Poor Law Commissioners; that they had deceived Parliament and the public, and brought the Poor Law into discredit in the eyes of the nation. That being the case, he thought it was deserving of the serious attention of the Government whether such proceedings should be any longer tolerated. This mode of proceeding of the Commissioners had been the origin of the District Asylums' Committee, of which he was a member; for the Commissioners having deceived Parliament and the Government, the late Government brought in a Bill for establishing such district asylums. He, as a member of the vestry of Marylebone, had represented to the late Government that they had, in the workhouse of the parish, ample provision for the casual poor, and
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that to establish these asylums would only be to encourage begging, and that the result would be that they would have persons begging all day, and coming home at night to a warm room, and to food, and that next day they would sally out to plunder the public afresh. Except in the city of London, where there were no workhouses suited to the reception of casual poor, the poor of the several parishes being usually farmed out two or three miles from town, there was in the workhouses within the metropolitan police district ample accommodation for the reception of as many mendicants as would apply. According to returns from the metropolitan parishes in 1845, it appeared that there was workhouse accommodation in the unions for 22,186 paupers; but the greatest number of persons that actually applied in that year was 19,577, leaving vacancies for 2,609 persons more than had been filled up. With this information before them, the Poor Law Commissioners could not have recommended the establishment of district asylums; and this information they might have had if they had inquired, which they never had done. There was not a single minute to show the grounds on which, they had made that recommendation. Yet they had recklessly and ignorantly recommended the late Government to establish a double set of workhouses. These were his complaints against the Poor Law Commissioners. Mr. Hall himself stated that he was the only assistant who had been employed to make any inquiries relating to the subject of these district asylums; and from his report itself it appeared that there was clear room in the metropolis for 1,000 more vagrants and casual poor than had been wanted. Mr. Hall said, that the greatest number applying for admission in any one night was 16,000, whereas there was room for 17,000; and yet the Commissioners would have district asylums erected. Towards the necessary expense of this, the parish of Marylebone was to be taxed at one-third of the whole amount, while it was only to have had one-eighth or one-ninth share of the management. The Commissioners would have taxed the parish at the rate of 10,000 l. a year. The waste of money that would have taken place would have been intolerable. The first of the resolutions which he had intended to have submitted had been agreed to by the District Asylums' Committee, to the effect that the orders of the Commissioners of 1838 and 1839 had greatly increased vagrancy

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in the metropolis. He should mention one further circumstance with reference to this part of the subject. The police magistrates of the metropolis had not done their duty with respect to this class of offenders. Some of those magistrates—all except two—when men had been brought before them, who had been drinking in public houses, and remaining there till eleven o'clock at night, and had been taken into custody in the streets, did not do their duty as they ought. A great experiment had been made, and Parliament had entrusted the conducting of it to individuals who had violated that trust; and in saying so he was not excepting the First Commissioner—not Sir F. Lewis himself—they had all violated the trust reposed in them. It was with great pain that he brought the subject before the House; but hoping that Her Majesty's Ministers would be enabled to deal satisfactorily with the evil, he must say it was absolutely necessary that they should interfere if they meant the law to be carried out. They must do that in order to give confidence to those who managed the inferior departments under the law, or it would be much better to repeal the law. On these reasons, as the Government had not yet had time to go over the voluminous documents and evidence that bore upon the subject, he would only ask, that during the recess they would see that proper regulations were carried out. Those who were adverse to the New Poor Law rejoiced at the maladministration of its provisions, as furnishing arguments against the principle of the law. That was not his feeling. He thought that they ought not to confound the effects of maladministration with defects in the principle of the law. For the reasons he had given, he should conclude by moving only his last Resolution:—
"That Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to cause a special public inquiry to be made into the facts above recited and referred to in the evidence before the House, to ascertain whether the Commissioners, by their letters, instructions, and proceedings, and by their omission to direct the means for setting the able-bodied mendicants to work, did encourage and increase mendicity; and also whether the proceedings of the Commissioners generally have been culpably irregular or illegal; and if it shall appear that the Commissioners have so acted, or have by their culpable defaults occasioned the mischief complained of, that Her Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into Her consideration the certainty of dismissal of inferior officers when they have infringed the law or the rules laid down for their guidance; and that She will be pleased to direct that evenhanded justice be done to these superior officers, who have had,
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as is expressed by the Commission of Inquiry, 'the immediate advantage of well-defined objects assigned to them, powerful means at their disposal, and clear rules for their guidance.'"
SIR G. GREYsaid, that the hon. Gentleman would bear him out, he was sure, in stating that on his (Sir G. Grey's) having represented to the hon. Gentleman that at that late period of the Session, and as the Report of the Andover Committee was not yet printed, it would not be practicable to go into the subject of his resolutions, the hon. Gentleman had given him in private a distinct assurance that he should not move his Resolution this Session. Considering the importance of the subject, and the importance also of examining the evidence given before the Andover Union Workhouse Committee, and the District Asylums' Committee, he thought it was the duty of Her Majesty's Government to give the most deliberate attention to the whole subject. Under the impression, then, that the hon. Gentleman had given him a distinct pledge that he should not move his resolutions this Session, he (Sir G. Grey) should not go further into the subject.
MR. HUMEobserved that, consistently with the rules of the House, he should not have been able to make any observations unless he were about to end by a Motion; but he had no intention to press any of his resolutions.
Motion withdrawn.

DISTRESS IN MAYO.
On the Motion that the Order of the Day be read,
Mr. D. BROWNErose to call the attention of the House to the state of distress in the county of Mayo. He stated that Mayo was the poorest county in Ireland; that it contained between 3,000 and 4,000 of the most wretched peasantry on the face of creation; that the greater number of the proprietors were absentees; and that every alternate year hundreds of the people were suffering under the pangs of hunger and the extremity of want. The accounts he had received from Mayo at this moment were of a most alarming character. If the facts which had reached him were true—and he had no reason to doubt their truth—the peace of society in that county was in imminent danger, not merely on account of the famine, but on account of the rashness to which the people might be precipitated from the pressure of despair. He had on a former occasion declared himself

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opposed to the principle of making the people of Ireland dependent upon the people of this country; but the facts which he was about to detail to the House would show the urgent necessity which existed for taking the most immediate steps for the purpose of meeting the calamity; otherwise, as he had said, the peace of society would be endangered. The information which he had received from Castlebar, Kilmain, and other parts of the county, represented that the potato crop had not merely failed, but that potatoes had almost completely disappeared; and that, consequently, those persons who were dependent for their subsistence upon that root, had not at the present moment a morsel to eat. There were no fewer than 42,000 persons in Mayo who were in a state of destitution. 22,000 of these had recently been employed by the local relief committees—leaving, however, 20,000 still without a single particle of any kind of food. He hoped he should not appeal in vain to English Gentlemen to urge upon the Government to take more immediate steps than could be taken under their own propositions to relieve the imminent distress in the county of Mayo. The last Administration had done well: they had excited towards them the gratitude of the people of Ireland; and he hoped the present Government would imitate their good example, He did not wish, by telling the House that the peace of society was endangered, to use any exciting language—he did not wish to make an inflammatory speech which would be carried elsewhere; but he conceived it to be his duty, as representative of the county of Mayo, to state the real facts of the case. He knew that the priesthood would do all in their power to preserve the public peace; but there were circumstances under which reason was unavailing—under which reason abandoned the unfortunate sufferers, and under which the law of nature became stronger than the law of the country or any other human obligations. The noble Member for Lynn had asked him two questions which some other Members might be disposed to put, namely, why the present harvest did not supply the people with labour and the means of existence?—or if it could not do so, why the people did not come to this country for work as usual? With respect to the first question, he begged to say, that the employment arising from the harvest in Mayo, and, indeed, in Ireland generally, was perfectly inadequate for the purpose;
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and with respect to the second question, his answer was, that formerly, when the people came to this country to the harvest, they were able to leave their families some provision till their return; but they were unable to do so at present. The hon. Member concluded by saying, that he was anxious to promote the best understanding between the people of this country and the people of Ireland; that the party to which he belonged, in the exercise of their capacity as Repealers, were anxious—if this country by proper legislation would allow them—to prove the identity of interests between the two countries; they were anxious to prove that mutual dependence, that reciprocal benefits, and above all, that equal and just laws, would best advance the prosperity and happiness of both countries.
The O'CONOR DONsaid, that the attention of the Government had been fully awakened to the subject, and that they were devising means by which the people would be enabled to get over the immediate pressure of the distress, so that measures might ultimately be adopted to improve their condition.
MR. LABOUCHEREadmitted the general truth of the pictures that were drawn of the distress existing in Ireland, although he believed that some of the details were exaggerated. The failure of the potato crop was this year much more extensive than it was last, and Ireland was therefore in a situation of peculiar difficulty, He could assure the House that the fullest attention of the Government would be given to the subject during the recess, after which assurance he trusted that he would not be expected to enter into details. The county of Mayo was at present, he believed, one of the most distressed parts of Ireland; and he feared the visitation with which the country was afflicted had fallen more heavily there than elsewhere. Still, however, some of the statements were, he believed, in some degree exaggerated. He was glad to find by the accounts from the markets there, that at Westport, lately, Indian meal was selling at less than 1d. per lb.; thirty tons were sold there recently at that price. Potatoes, also, were selling at 1½d. and 2d. per stone, though he admitted that they had been forced on the market because of their diseased state. It might, however, be said, that it was of no use provisions being cheap, if the people had not the means to buy them. That was very true; but, at the same time, he did not see how the present condition of

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the people in that respect was to be altered, unless there was a very cordial co-operation on the part of the landed gentry with the Government. He trusted that that co-operation would be afforded, and that those who were the natural guardians and protectors of the people would come forward on the occasion. Every means would be adopted by the Government to provide employment for the people, particularly in the county of Mayo. Colonel Jones', the head of the Board of Works in Ireland, having been recently in London, had been spoken to on the subject. In answer to inquiries, Colonel Jones wrote, on the 24th, the following letter:—
"London, August 24, 1840.
"Sir—In reply to your inquiries as to the employment of the distressed poor in the county of Mayo, I have the honour to state that on Monday last at Bellina I gave personal instructions to Mr. Brett, the county surveyor, not to stop any works where employment to afford relief was necessary, and moreover that he should put men upon additional works that might have been applied for at the special baronial sessions, and not commenced; and I left him with the full impression, that acting upon the orders I then gave him, he had full authority to afford employment to all those who might require it, until the measures to be adopted by Government should be known. I may also state that memorials were then under inspection, and I have no doubt have been reported upon ere this. As I leave London for Dublin by this night's train, the state of Mayo shall be immediately inquired into by me on my arrival there.—I have the honour to be, Sir, your obedient servant,
"HARRY D. JONES.
"To the Right Hon. H. Labouchere."
He had already informed the House on a former occasion, that there was every reason to believe that the supply of grain, through the exertions of private individuals, would be sufficient for the markets. Except in some very extraordinary case of necessity, the Government would not interfere with either the wholesale or the retail trader. His attention having been called to the condition of the barony of Kinsale and the parts adjacent in the county of Cork, he had by that night's post written to Dublin, calling the especial attention of the authorities to the subject. And with respect to the great question, he could only repeat that the attention of the Government and of the Lord Lieutenant would be given incessantly to the state of the people of Ireland; and he hoped that with the active co-operation of the landlords they would be able greatly to mitigate the evils which threatened them. He could not help adding, that all the accounts he had received showed that the people had
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exhibited the greatest patience under these trying circumstances; and that the clergy, both Roman Catholic and Protestant, had done their best to promote peace and to check the spirit of exaggeration, and that tendency to panic which were calculated so much to aggravate existing evils.
Order of the Day read.

SMALL DEBTS BILL.
On the Motion that the Small Debts Bill be read a Third Time,
MR. WARBURTONcomplained of the restriction of the judicial appointments to barristers at law. A clause ought to have been introduced, declaring that the judges should have no right to compensation if they were hereafter to be entirely prohibited from practising as barristers. If it was now too late to introduce a clause, the House ought at least to receive the most complete assurance from the Government that no such claim would be admitted.
SIR G. GREYwas quite willing to give the most distinct assurance, that the exclusion of the judges from practising as barristers hereafter could not be acknowledged as giving any claim to compensation. The Lord Chancellor thought it exceedingly improbable that those gentlemen could have extensive practice; and would no doubt be disposed distinctly to intimate that the extended restriction on practice would not be allowed to constitute any claim to compensation.
Bill read a Third Time and passed.
House adjourned at a quarter past Three o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—1a. District Lunatic Asylums (Ireland); Pawnbrokers.
Reported, Poor Employment (Ireland); Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Public Works (Ireland) (No. 4); Public Works (Ireland) (No. 5); Constabulary (Ireland) (No. 5); Leases (Ireland); Private Bills; New Zealand Government; Railway Commissioners.
3a. and passed. Steam Navigation; Customs Duties (No. 2); Rateable Property (Ireland); Drainage of Lands.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Lambeth, for the Abolition of Ecclesiastical Courts.—From Cork, in favour of the Baths and Washhouses (Ireland) Bill.—From Charles Staunton, Cahill, against the Public Works (Ireland) Bill.—By the Earl of Clarendon, from Attorneys at Law, for the Insertion of a Clause in the Small Debts Bill to appoint any Attorneys at Law to be Judges of the Courts to be established thereunder, whom the Lord Chancellor may consider duly qualified.

THE EARL OF RIPON'S EXPLANATION.
The EARL of RIPON: My Lords, I must request your Lordships' indulgence for a short time, whilst I refer to a topic most deeply interesting to myself, and which has been the subject of discussion in your Lordships' House. I greatly regret
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that it was not in my power to be present in my place during the last week or yesterday, on the occasions on which this subject has been adverted to. But, feeling that the matter is one which deeply affects my public character and honour, I held it to be my duty, at the earliest possible moment, to present myself before your Lordships, for the purpose of making some remarks on the subject in question. I came down, my Lords, this day fully prepared to enter into a full and dispassionate detail of all the circumstances which have been recently adverted to; but in the situation in which that matter now stands, and referring to what was stated by my noble and learned Friend the other night, in vindication of himself as well as of me, I do not think that it is necessary for me to trouble your Lordships by pursuing any such course. Indeed, I would willingly have abstained from saying anything at all to your Lordships, if I could have reconciled my silence to the sense of what I personally owe to my own honour. But, my Lords, I am bound to state, as I now do here, on my honour as a gentleman, and were the words the last I was to utter on this side of the grave—I feel bound absolutely to deny in the most unqualified manner that there either is or was the slightest foundation for the imputation which has been cast upon me. And that imputation is no light matter. It is not one which affects me merely in my political capacity; but one containing a much more grave and serious accusation—an accusation of trafficking in a matter of ecclesiastical patronage, and of endeavouring, by a most scandalous interchange of advantages, to obtain for myself the nomination to a living which I was desirous that a friend should possess. My Lords, I have ever felt the disposal of ecclesiastical patronage to be a matter of awful responsibility. It does not concern merely the temporal advantages of those who reside in the parish over which the appointed clergyman presides, but it affects their eternal interests. That any man then, my Lords—any man of common feeling—any man who has a sense of what is right in his bosom, would be guilty of such dishonourable, of such scandalous traffic—is an imputation I should hold it impossible to assert, were it not as clearly proveable as the sun at noonday. With what feelings, my Lords, were such a charge true—with what feelings could I enter the walls of that parish church—the parish in which my residence is placed—a parish which,

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with the exception of the clergyman's glebe, altogether belongs to me—with what feelings, I say, could I enter that parish church other than those of the deepest shame and degradation—feelings more easily conceivable than described. My Lords, I have been accused of a most scandalous action. I rest my defence here—I stand on my own character—that character is before the world—it has been before the world for thirty years, and if it do not defend me from such attacks, then no explanation I can give, no arguments I can urge, can have that effect. But I may be permitted, my Lords, to advert to one or two circumstances of a most extraordinary nature, which have attended this accusation. No notice whatever was given to me of an intention to prefer any such charge. I knew, indeed, by accident, that a question was to be asked upon a legal matter; but as there was not a shadow of truth in the accusation about the living of Nocton, I never anticipated the possibility of such an imputation being cast upon me; and I therefore had no opportunity of instructing anybody in the facts of the case, or requesting any friend to be present in Parliament to deny the charge in the most indignant, and vindicate my character in the most ample manner. My Lords, I was as much astonished when I heard that accusation as though I had been charged with committing murder. It was a proceeding neither usual nor courteous, nor, above all, just; and I hope that it is the last time that any accusation of the sort will be preferred in such a manner, and in such a hurry, without giving the individual accused an opportunity of replying, and of vindicating his character. But, my Lords, it appears that this scandal proceeds from some unknown and unnamed person. I wonder who he is. He is stated to be eminent in his profession. What profession? Is it law? Is it the church? Does he honour the army with his name? Who is he? What is he? I know not, my Lords, and care not who he is—but I can't help knowing what he is—and that is more to the purpose. My Lords, it is an informer, who has volunteered to make this carge. When he saw the notice of Motion in the newspapers, he volunteered to make a written statement on which to found the charge. What do I infer from that? Why, that the individual who was to bring forward the accusation, had at first no intention of adverting to it at all. He knew nothing about it. But I want to know where that written paper
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is? Am I not entitled to ask? It is the indictment on which I have been arraigned, and upon which I have—at least in the opinion of one individual—been found guilty. Where then is it? Does it exist? In whose hands is it? In the hands of the individual who was called upon to use it? I doubt that very much. But if it be not, on what ground can it be urged as a proof of the charge brought against me? Ami to I remain in ignorance of the contents of that paper? Such a course; is unusual I am sure; it is unjust I am sure. But in order to show, I suppose, the degree of credit to which this anonymous informer is entitled, it was stated that he is a person closely connected with the living of Nocton. How could that be? What did he know of the circumstances which induced me to apply to my noble Friend? My Lords, there is a remarkable circumstance with respect to the living of Nocton. Only two incumbents have enjoyed it for the last eighty years. One of them hold it for thirty-one, the other for forty-eight years; and I know to a certainty that with regard to the first, the rev, gentleman who held it for the former period (and I know this, because I have recently been on a visit to his son)—I repeat, that I know to a certainty that it is impossible that with respect to that gentleman any information could have been either possessed or obtained by any one to be made the matter of a serious accusation against me. Neither do I believe that any individual who bears the name of Hobart, that of the latter incumbent, ever would be guilty of attempting, by supplying anonymous information, to injure my reputation, and hand me up to the reprobation of the people of that parish, who I hope respect me and love the family with which I am connected. No, my Lords, from neither of these sources did the anonymous scandal come. I ask again then, who furnished it? and with that question I pause. I need proceed no further. It were unnecessary to enter into more minute details, "Liberavi animam meam." I only add—conscious of my own innocence, conscious of the injustice of the accusation brought against me, conscious of its total want of foundation from beginning to end, and at the same time feeling that a grievous wrong has been done me—that my character has been most unjustly aspersed, and a great injury thus inflicted—I say I have only to add, that I still would rather be the victim of that wrong, that I still would rather carry with me to the grave

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the sense of that injury, than be the anonymous author of the calumny which this accusation has flung upon me.

POOR EMPLOYMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
The MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE, in moving that the House should go into Committee on this Bill, said, that the circumstances which had rendered it necessary would be found detailed in the volume of correspondence which had already been laid before their Lordships. Their Lordships were aware of the disease which had appeared in the potato crop in Ireland in November last, and of the steps which the last Government had taken to relieve the distress which had been occasioned by that calamity. Of the measures of Her Majesty's late Government in supplying Indian meal he entirely approved. Within the last month, however, appearances had exhibited themselves which too surely indicated an aggravation of the misfortune which had befallen the people of Ireland last year; and it therefore became necessary to review the measures which the late Government had carried, with a view to their temporary relief. With respect to the supply of food, he was enabled to state that there was no intention to introduce it upon the account of Government. He was sure that supplies would not be wanting, if the demands of the people required supplies, and that they would be amply met by private enterprise. It was determined, therefore, that the Government would not become importers either of corn or meal, but would leave its importation to be regulated by the ordinary course of trade. He did not mean to say, however, that Her Majesty's Government would feel themselves precluded from exercising, in case of urgent necessity, a superintendence over the distribution of these supplies at home, which could be done without injuring the importers. With reference to the supply of food, therefore, he had little to say; but one important object of the Bill related to the amount of wages which was to be secured to the people of Ireland. Much might be, and doubtless had been, done by the benevolence of individuals; but under existing circumstances it was not proper to rely entirely on the exercise of that benevolence. The material object, therefore, of the Bill, was to provide that in cases of distress there should not be wanting a due employment of the poor and labouring classes in that country. Greater powers were undoubtedly given in the Bill for this
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purpose, than he should wish to see entrusted permanently to any officer, however exalted his rank. Under the circumstances, however, it had been determined that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, on the representations of certain districts, should authorize advances to be made by Her Majesty's Government, the whole of such advances to be ultimately repaid by the districts in question, and the period of repayment to be spread over not less than ten years, by instalments, with interest upon such advances, at the rate of three and a half per cent. That was the principle on which Her Majesty's Government must chiefly depend for the reduction of the amount of that evil which must be expected to occur. Still, Her Majesty's Government would not be deaf to every demand that might be made upon them for assistance, nor would they leave this Bill to take its course without holding out any further aid. The Government would still continue to make advances upon the application of grand juries or private individuals, for making great lines of public communication; and they would make a grant from the Treasury of one-half of the funds required for the purpose, and would also make further advances, if necessary, in the form of loans. Another object which the Government had in view, was to make advances in furtherance of local subscriptions for charitable purposes. The works which would be carried on under this system, although they might be contributed towards by private individuals, and contributed in a sense in many cases for private purposes, would nevertheless be under the control of the officers of the Government, directed by Government engineers, and so constructed that they would be calculated to contribute in the greatest possible degree to the prosperity of the nation, as well as to private and individual advantage. He had now stated a general outline of the three measures which the Government proposed, and having done so he would express a hope that the crisis which now existed in Ireland, however it might be productive of suffering for the present, was calculated to lead ultimately to good, and that it would be followed by such a change in the social system of that country as would place its population in that position amongst the populations of the world which all their Lordships desired to see. He believed that the course of conduct which the Government proposed to adopt would be a great benefit to the small farmer, if farmers

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they could be called, who had no capital, by affording such a constant supply of work as would show the perfect possibility of maintaining support by day labour. He trusted that, besides raising the character of the Irish farmer, those measures were calculated to do much good in improving the social condition of the country; and thus, whatever bitterness of feeling or suffering might be caused by the present distress, it would ultimately have a good effect, Parliament in the meantime doing all that lay in its power to alleviate, ameliorate, and remedy the evil which existed. The noble Marquess moved that the House go into Committee on the Bill.
LORD MONTEAGLEsaid, he should be happy if he could see so clearly the way of escape from the evils under which Ireland now suffered from the loss of the potato crop. He agreed in the propriety of the Government not purchasing the Indian corn which would be required; but he would remark that the circumstances under which the late Government had acted last December, and the previous state of the law respecting the importation of Indian corn, were such as justified the late Government in adopting the course which they had adopted. It was, in his opinion, the duty of the Government to facilitate by every means in its power the distribution of food to the people in such a calamity as that which now afflicted Ireland; and with respect to supplying employment for labour, he could not avoid expressing his regret that they had not, at an earlier period of the Session, when they had a larger attendance of Peers, been afforded an opportunity of discussing the subject. He feared, however, that his noble Friend and the Government would be disappointed in the effect of this part of the Bill. Only that very morning he had received an account from the south of Ireland, which showed that the present state of things exceeded the possibility of any anticipation of their Lordships. It was from a most undoubted authority, a gentleman who was a magistrate in that part of Ireland, and was dated only on the 23rd instant. The writer said—
"You cannot conceive anything so frightful as the universal aspect of the potatoes. Since I came to this part of the country, I have not seen one single field that is not rapidly approaching to destruction. In the county of Cork you may travel for miles together without seeing, for field after field, anything above ground but blackened stalks of potatoes. In this part of the country the disease has not advanced so far; but the different
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stages follow each other so quickly, that it will not be long first. So far from the accounts in the papers being exaggerated, I read none that appears to me to be short of the truth. From this you may judge of the immense magnitude of the coming evil."
The effect of this destruction was, that there never was in modern times so small a stock of potatoes which were calculated for food, as compared with the population and the period during which it would be required to provide food for the population. It ought to be recollected that the peasantry of Ireland grew their own food, and they were, by this disease of the potato crop, deprived of the first necessary of life. Under these circumstances, therefore, however they might respect the doctrines of strict political science and of non-interference, yet they would not be doing their duty as legislators if they stood by and allowed the people to perish without interfering to prevent it. He had great confidence in the effect which would be produced by a free trade in Indian corn, and it afforded him great gratification to find that the people of Ireland had not only accommodated themselves to the use of Indian corn as food, but had begun to prefer it to their usual food; and he should remark that, with the supplies of that article which were expected from the other side of the Atlantic and the ports of the Mediterranean, there was no reason for anticipating any deficiency in the supply of that description of food for the Irish people. He trusted that Government, in order to render that supply of the greatest possible advantage to the Irish people, would adopt adequate means to enable them to have that corn ground into flour. That was the more necessary in Ireland, inasmuch as Ireland was not a bread-eating country, with mills scattered over the face of it in such numbers as over England, the mills in Ireland being rather commercial in their character, and used in a great degree for grinding corn for the purpose of exportation. He had great reliance on the advantages which might be expected from the change which had taken place in the law with respect to the importation of Indian corn; and he also had great reliance on the improvement which would be made in the Board of Works. With respect to the grant of 50,000 l., he was of opinion that it would be quite inadequate to the purpose for which it was proposed, and he would observe that the mode of making the grant was a most important consideration, for grants might be so well regulated that they would become

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the means of conferring great benefit upon the country. By enforcing private subscriptions in aid of the grants, they would adopt a course well calculated to call out the latent resources of the country; but if this grant were made by itself, without anything else, it would be ineffectual in calling out these private energies. He had it on the opinion of Lord Devon, of Sir Richard Bourke, and others, that the people of Ireland did not want gratuitous relief, but grants, made conditional, on private contributions being brought in aid, which would call forth the resources of the country, without which no good could be done. Since the year 1834, no less than 213 miles of road had been constructed in that country; for that purpose 13,300 l. was contributed hy private individuals, who made their contributions on the principle of their being in aid of the grant from the Government. In addition to those 213 miles, twenty-one had been made by his noble Friend near him (the Marquess of Lansdowne) and given to the public. Upwards of fourteen miles had been made by another individual, and yet for the whole of that there was a grant of only 30,000 l.; whereas the whole expenditure was 123,000 l., laid out under proper superintendence, as improving the condition of the country, and aiding the wages of the labourer. This was the system which at a moment of exigency was to be upset by this vote of 50,000 l. As a vote it was inadequate to meet the difficulty. Though he bore now, as on former occasions he had borne, his humble tribute of approbation to the Report of Lord Devon's Commission, yet he did say that there were principles in that report, and those principles were the ones on which he feared the present Bill was founded, which were perfectly indefensible. Now, with regard to the baronial sessions, and the rate which was to be levied on the Poor-law valuation. That proposition involved the principle of contributions from the landlord, as well as from the occupying tenant, and he fully acquiesced in that principle; but in taking the Poor-law valuation they were adopting a valuation which was so fraudulent and unjust, that only the other night the noble Marquess thought it necessary to introduce another Bill in its place. Would their Lordships believe, so variable was the valuation, that property valued to-day at 64 l. might be valued to-morrow at 73 l., property valued at 67 l. might be raised to 106 l., at 81 l. to 119 l., and so on? The
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result of that system was that they had inequality, injustice, oppression, and fraud everywhere; and yet by the way of popularizing the present rate, in order to make it palatable, they engrafted the present measure upon that defective valuation, and expected that it would remove the miseries of Ireland. He objected to this part of the Bill also, because all of a sudden in the month of August, and without notice, they were about to bring the whole tithe-property of the Church into this assessment—whatever there was of mines, of canals, of railways, of fisheries, of mills, of tolls, the whole of the turbary of Ireland, at present free from rates, all were to be brought into this assessment; and this in so unfair a manner, that if the valuation were 50 per cent below the actual value, the tithes would be rated at their full amount; and he stated that that was a most mischievous part of the Bill. But he had another and still more fatal objection to this Bill, and that was, that it practically involved the introduction of the principle of out-door relief for the poor of Ireland. Whether that was a right or a wrong principle, he did say that it was the greatest social change that was ever made in any country. He did not stop to examine the principle; but whether for good or for evil, no change was ever proposed in reference to the social economy of any country in the world of so great a magnitude as that which they were now taking blindfold. He contended that the groundwork of their measure should have been the "profitable" employment of the people. But if they set their baronial sessions to work without reference to "profitable" employment, they would be making "relief" the only object, whilst they would be wasting capital, and destroying the funds that would employ labour. If they adopted that step, he feared that they would have to look back to the present evil as a lesser calamity than that which it would inflict upon the country. If they had adopted a different plan, they would not have limited themselves to the 30,000 l., but would have used the. 160,000 l. they had wasted by the vote of last night; they would have developed the internal resources of Ireland, and they would have escaped the evil of out-door relief. The other measures of the Government would be of little avail: the Drainage Bill was inapplicable to Ireland, the Pier Bill was inadequate to its purpose; and this the only Bill on which they could rely, would not call

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forth the expenditure of a farthing from the pockets of individuals. It was given in evidence by Mr. Griffiths, that not only were those subscriptions to relieve the distress contributed in sixpences and shillings by the poorer classes, but that the resident landlords had doubled the number of the labourers on their domains, and had begun a series of improvements on their estates by draining at a distance from their residences. There were also cases in which subscriptions had been largely given for improvements; Lord Stradbroke had contributed 500 l. to make a road, and Lord Courtown had given his security for 1,000 guineas for other improvements; and if they now fixed this general tax upon the landlords, would not this general expenditure of capital be withdrawn? Let them take, for example, the estate of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, which was a model estate. Suppose the Besborough estate were surrounded by lands on which there was a pauper population, would it not be unjust towards him that the very amount of his own generous improvement should be made the measure of his own taxation, and that the amount of the neglect of his neighbours should be the measure of their demands upon them? The Bill would be a greater blow against the improvements that were now going on than anything that had yet taken place. The proposition would work against those who were willing to amend the state of the tenantry on their own estates, and was against the principle of the clause moved by the Duke of Wellington in the Poor Law; they were now departing from that principle, and making a well-managed estate pay a greater tax in proportion to the improvement, whilst the rack-rented unimproved land in the vicinity would have the benefit. This was a rank injustice, and it was upon those grounds he thought the Bill would prove mischievous. In confirmation of the view which he took of this part of the Bill, he would refer the House to a communication which he had received from a number of landed gentry in the county of Limerick. Those gentlemen stated that the unanimous opinion of every one was, that the effect of the Government proposition would be to compel the landlord who was giving a great deal of employment to dismiss his own labourers, and to lot them go on the baronial funds. That was what was apprehended by the gentlemen of Limerick; and they added that they were willing to be responsible for the state of the tenantry on their
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own estates. There could be no doubt but that the consequence of the measure would be that the more an estate was improved, the more it would be taxed; and that the more other estates were rack-rented and ruined, the less they would have to bear. He had already said that this Bill would introduce a system of outdoor relief for the poor of Ireland, and he defied any noble Lord to distinguish the principle which this Bill laid down from that of out-door relief. It was out-door relief, and nothing less. With the permission of the House he would trouble them with the evidence of a few gentlemen well qualified to give an opinion upon this point. Mr. Senior stated before the Committee in 1846—
"If to the existing Poor Law in Ireland were superadded out-door relief, I believe that all the evils produced in England in 300 years would be produced in Ireland in ten. It would be an entire confiscation."
Mr. Lewis stated—
"My belief is that the introduction of a system of out-door relief in Ireland, similar to what obtains in England, would be a most disastrous measure. I believe that in a few years, however carefully guarded the law might be, and however trustworthy and intelligent the administration of the relief might be, it would absorb all the surplus produce of the soil, and I think in a short time deteriorate the condition of the persons for whose benefit it was introduced. I think it would impoverish the rich without improving the condition of the poor."
Mr. Gulson said—
"I have no hesitation in expressing my decided opinion that anything approaching to out-door relief in Ireland would very soon swamp the whole property of the country."
Mr. Twiselton said—
"I conceive it would be a fatal step to introduce any system of out-door relief for the unemployed population of Ireland."
Mr. Clements said—
"I think the advocates of out-door relief in Ireland have very little knowledge of the inextricable web of difficulties they would get into if such a law was passed."
And the Commissioners, in their Third Report, which was signed by Archbishop Whately, by Archbishop Murray, by Lord Fingal, and others, were equally strong upon the subject. They stated—
"If any considerable portion of the rental of the country were devoted to the support of unprofitable labour, it would be in a great degree consumed without being reproduced, commerce must decay, the demand for agricultural produce, except potatoes, and coarse clothing, must contract, rents must diminish, while the number of persons out of employment and in need of support must increase, and general ruin be the result. It may,

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however, be said that England, with the Poor Law system we condemn, has become great and flourishing, whilst Ireland, without it, is in a state of semi-barbarism. The fact is so. But because extraordinary strength has withstood poison, it does not follow that poison should be prescribed as a remedy for weakness."
He trusted that his anticipations, or rather his fears, might prove visionary; but he hoped that what he had stated on the system of out-door relief in Ireland would at least load some of Her Majesty's Council to say whether they did not believe it necessary, in the application of this Bill, to guard against an extension of it, which would lead, not only from its consequences there, but from the expectations which it would call forth in this country, to the most serious and enormous difficulties.
The EARL of WICKLOWsaid, he thought Her Majesty's Government had shown a sound judgment in the mode which they had adopted of meeting the present difficulties of Ireland. At the same time, he should say that it was impossible for the late Government to have acted otherwise than they had done, considering the sudden manner in which the evil came upon them. He especially approved of the engagement made by the present Ministry, that they would not be concerned as importers of provisions, as he felt convinced that it would lead to a sufficient supply for the wants of the country, whatever they might be. He begged to say that in everything which fell from the noble Marquess he fully concurred. As to the means which the people would possess of obtaining food, when introduced, it was quite evident that, in the mode which was adopted by this Bill, certain evils must be expected to arise. It was totally impossible to expect, if they adopted the mode of taxation proposed, that the same degree of liberality and charity on the part of private individuals would be exercised as if no such taxation existed. The thing was out of the question. Under these circumstances, he thought that no plan of relief could be more eligible, or more likely to meet the exigencies of the case, than that which Her Majesty's Government had adopted. He regretted that the valuation of the existing Poor Law had been taken as the basis of the levy to be made under this Bill, as it would take the county cess collectors away from a system to which they had hitherto been accustomed. As to the point alluded to by his noble Friend respecting all property being liable to taxation, he should say that, considering the
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position of the clergy, surrounded as they were by a poor population, and considering the many claims that were made upon them, he thought they ought to be excluded from the tax. This was, he thought, the only objectionable clause in the Bill. At that late hour he would not trespass further on their Lordships' time; and he would conclude by giving his thanks to Her Majesty's Government for the anxiety which they had shown to meet the distress in Ireland. He thought no measure could be adopted that was better prepared or more constitutional than that which had been decided upon. He trusted that it would work beneficially; and he rested satisfied that if it did not, other aid would be furnished to the country to supply its deficiency.
The DUKE of GRAFTONsaid, the great object of the Bill should be to obtain a proper supply of food for the people, and in effecting that object he feared the present measure would fail. He believed that a great cause of the failure of the potato crop in many districts arose from an imperfect cultivation of the soil; and if the labourers were, under this Bill, to be taken away from the cultivation of the land to be employed in building bridges and constructing roads, agriculture would be left in a worse condition than before.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEsaid, his noble Friend must be aware that no material alteration could be made in the nature of the Bill, as it could not be sent down again to the other House without great danger of losing it altogether for the present Session. Considering the great latitude which was given with regard to the works to be constructed, and the mode of applying the money to be raised under the Bill, he thought that there was no great danger of the evils arising which his noble Friend who had just sat down appeared to dread. As to the principle of dividing the expenses equally between the landlord and the tenant, it was, he believed, one in the justice of which they would all agree. The expenditure under the Bill would prove most useful, in the double character of effecting permanent and valuable improvements in the country, and at the same time of affording immediate relief to the people. With regard to the principal objection of his noble Friend, he denied altogether that the Bill would lead to the adoption of a system of permanent out-door relief. He was as much opposed to the introduction of such a system as his

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noble Friend could be; and he fully concurred with him that it was a system of a vicious character, and one which, if adopted, must lead to the complete confiscation of the property of Ireland.
Bill reported without Amendment.
House adjourned.