Sitting of 21 August 1846

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS.—2°. Patent Commissions; Waste Lands (Australia(; Pawnbrokers.
Reported. Constabulary (Ireland); Public Works (Ireland) (No. 4); Public Works (Ireland) (No. 5); Consolidated Fund (Appropriation); Poor Employment (Ireland); Ecclesiastical Patronage; Private Bills; Leases (Ireland).
3°. and passed. Court of Exchequer (Ireland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Disraeli, from Charles Miller, M.A., Clerk, for Repeal or Alteration of the Tithes Commutation Act.—By Mr. Greene, from Chemists and Druggists, part being Members of the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, residing at Stamford, in the County of Lincoln; and by Mr. Villiers, from Chemists and Druggists residing at Wolverhampton, praying that the Spirit Licenses and Duties Bill may not pass into a Law.—By Mr. Disraeli, from the Inhabitants of Bradford, for an Investigation into the Working of the Anatomy Act, with a view to its Repeal.—By Mr. Disraeli, from Woolsorters employed at Messrs. Walkers and Co., in the Parish of Bradford, in the West Riding of the County of York, praying the House to pass without Delay an efficient Ten Hours' Bill for Women and Young Persons employed in Factories.—By Mr. Wakley, from General Inhabitants of Newark, in the County of Nottingham, for the Abolition of the Punishment of Flogging in the Army and Navy.—By Sir William Somerville, from Guardians of the Poor of the Poor Law Union of Navan, in the County of Meath, Henry Murdyth, Chairman of the Board, for Alteration of the Law respecting Grand Jury Presentments (Ireland).—By Sir George Grey, from Members of the Provincial Medical and Surgical Association, assembled at Norwich, on Wednesday the 19th of August, 1846, the said Association comprehending One Thousand Eight Hundred and Fifty-six Medical Practitioners, in favour of the Medical Practitioners Bill.—By Sir De Lacy Evans, Mr. Hawes, and Mr. Wakley, from Journeymen Pawnbrokers of the Parishes of St. Ann, Soho, St. George's, Hanover Square, Saint Martin's in the Fields, St. Mary, Newington, St. Luke's, Old Street, St. Giles's, Cripplegate, St. Mary and Christ Church, Lambeth, and Marylebone, from Inhabitants of Clerkenwell, and from Master Pawnbrokers of the City of London and its Vicinity, in favour of the Pawnbrokers Bill.—By Mr. Alderman Humphery, from Inhabitants of the Parish of Saint Mary Magdalen, Bermondsey, in the County of Surrey, respecting the Operation of the Poor Law in the said Parish.—By Dr. Bow-

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ring, from Guardians of the Poor of the Parish of Ilfracombe, in the Barnstaple Union, against the System of contracting Marriages in Union Workhouses.—By Sir W. Somerville, from Merchants, Residents, and Traders of and in the Vicinity of Dockhead and Rotherhithe, in the County of Surrey, and by Sir Thomas Troubridge, from Manufacturers, Wholesale and Retail Traders, and other Inhabitants of and in the Vicinity of St. Pancras Road, in the County of Middlesex, for the Adoption of Measures for Redeeming and Extinguishing the Tolls upon Waterloo, Southwark, and Vauxhall Bridges.

RAILWAY COMMISSIONERS.
On the Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the Railway Commissioners Bill,
COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, the Bill would entail great expense on the country, besides giving an increased patronage to the Government; and it would also have the effect of establishing another Board of Commissioners like to the New Poor Law Board, of which they had heard so much of late in regard to the way in which they had done their duty. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give the Bill a little more consideration, which he had no doubt would lead to its postponement until the next Session. A measure of such importance should be allowed sufficient time for consideration. He felt such strong objections to the Bill, that unless his proposition was fairly met, he would move that the Bill be put off for six months. If he did not succeed in that, he would move to have the sixth and seventh clauses expunged.
MR. HENLEYwould make this proposal to the noble Lord at the head of the Government, that if he consented merely to transfer the powers possessed by the Board of Trade to this new Board, leaving other matters to be the subject of future consideration, he was not disposed to give further opposition to the Bill; but the latter part of the Bill gave powers to which he must object; and which was too weighty a subject to be considered in the present thin state of the House. If the suggestions thrown out were not attended to, he should feel it his duty not only to oppose the Bill, but to contend against every clause of the Bill.
MR. HUMEconsidered that a Board of the kind proposed to be appointed, was in the present state of railway business absolutely necessary. If the hon. Gentleman who had objected to the powers conferred by the Bill, had been, like him, on the Committee which suggested the appointment of the Board, and had heard the evidence of the engineers and others who
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were examined, he would not consider the powers more than were required under the circumstances.
LORD G. SOMERSETsaid, that had that evidence been before the House to which the hon. Member for Montrose referred, the Members of that House might be enabled to form an accurate opinion on the Bill before them, otherwise they must be in great ignorance on the subject. Why should that House be called on to legislate on the present measure, when that evidence was not placed in the hands of Members? His opinion was, that the Bill either went too far, or did not go far enough. It went to establish a new Commission, and at great expense, while it conferred neither powers nor authority which the Privy Council did not already possess; that was a serious objection. He was in favour of such a Commission, if suitable powers were conferred, and its duties properly defined. The question really resolved itself into this—was there a necessity for the formation of such a department? But whether there were or not, the Bill did not appear to carry out what might be considered the important objects for which it was intended; at least as far as he could see. Had he no objections to the principles of the Bill, he must object to it because of the late period of the Session in which it was introduced.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it would be time enough when the House went into Committee to consider the clauses which appeared to be objectionable. He was fully aware of the inconvenience of bringing forward the question at this late period of the Session; but if they did not appoint a railway board now, they would be in the same position next Session as they were at the beginning of this Session; and, under these circumstances, he thought it much better that they should pass the present Bill. They all knew that abuses existed; and there was no proper machinery to put a stop to them. He did not by that observation intend to impute the slightest blame to the Members of the Board of Trade, although there were general complaints that the business had not been fully attended to by that Board: they arose from the multifarious duties the Board had to perform. He hoped the new department would, by its superintendence, prevent illegal acts of every description from being committed by railway companies, and particularly in the prevention of such conduct as was recently

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brought under the consideration of the House—a railway company borrowing sums of money in a way to which it was not entitled. He fully anticipated if the Board were established, that at next Session of Parliament it would have acquired that experience by which it would be enabled to give the most important information as to the future guidance of legislation.
MR. BORTHWICKthought the principle of the measure one of great importance indeed; for, construe it as they might, the step now taken was neither more nor less than to appoint what would ultimately be considered a Secretary of State for the Superintendence of Public Works; and he thought the sooner they brought it to that point the better. He was not fond of borrowing much from our neighbours on the other side of the channel; but he confessed he did think that a department of Government constituted on the same principle as that of the Minister of Public Works in France might be extremely useful in this country in the present state of things; because the operations of railways, whether considered in a commercial point of view, or in regard to their more remote but not less important social objects, were of gigantic importance and of enormous consequence to the best interests of the country; and ought at once to be placed under the care of a distinct department of Government. He cordially agreed, therefore, in the object of the present Bill, though he considered it defective to this extent—that it conferred too limited powers upon the Board for the objects which it proposed to accomplish. He would wish to see the Board have a more permanent character, a more ample responsibility, and more abundant powers.
MR. ESTCOURTwould give the Bill his cordial support. It might be true that the Board of Trade had all the powers which it was proposed to confer on the new Board; but he could not forget that during this heavy Session of Parliament, when the House had had more to do with railways than on any former occasion, they had not received one iota of assistance from the Board of Trade. He did not blame the Board of Trade for this; he admitted that its reports last year had been received with less deference than they deserved; and the Board might on that account not care to proffer much assistance. With respect to the present Bill, he did not believe that it was possible for the ingenuity of any man satisfactorily to frame a law,
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and construct all the powers with which it was necessary to invest the proposed institution, in the short time the right hon. Gentleman had had to prepare the measure; and if the law were to be allowed to continue in a crude, ill-digested, and ill-arranged shape, he admitted that it would be more mischievous than even the absence of such an institution; but, on the other hand, if the Board were constituted with the limited powers contained in the present Bill, it would be an essential part of the duty of the Board, morally speaking, although not defined by the Bill, in the course of the recess, to prepare another Bill, containing all the powers which their inquiries and experience would show to be essentially necessary to enable them to fulfil the objects which the House had in view.
MR. HORSMANconcurred in the necessity of the present measure, and thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer had exercised a wise discretion in confining the Bill to those points on which the public were pretty generally agreed.
MR. P. HOWARDtrusted that the Board when appointed would direct its attention to the subject of the excessive speed of railways, which was the occasion of so many accidents.
MR. B. ESCOTTthought that the speed on railways was a great public convenience, and should not be reduced. He should, however, in consequence of other circumstances, join in suggesting that the consideration of the present question should be deferred until the ensuing Session. The great evil in railway legislation was, that when a Bill was introduced it was considered not on its merits, but according to what were the interests of the shareholders—and particularly of shareholders who had seats in that House. That was an evil for which the present Bill provided no remedy, as it left full power to Members of Parliament to vote on subjects in which they were personally interested—a power which they should not have. No system of railway legislation could go on satisfactorily while contractors in railways, Members of that House, who had large sums embarked in them, were allowed to vote, and decide by these votes what Bills should be carried and what Bills should not. It had been said, that the Board of Trade was so overcharged with work, that it could not attend to the business which would devolve on the new department. Had the Board of Trade said so? Had that Board declared that it

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was so overloaded with work, that it could not attend also to this public duty? Not one Member of that Board had said so. He did not wish to throw out any insinuation against the Board of Trade. He believed it to be composed of useful public servants; but still it was too much to call on Parliament to constitute a new department expressly for the purpose of lightening their burdens, and especially when there was no remonstrances that that Board was overburdened.
LORD J. RUSSELLmerely rose to say a few words on the subject before the House. Since the introduction of the Bill, he had taken considerable pains to ascertain its necessity; and he understood that it was the general opinion of Committees of both Houses, as well as of those persons who turned their attention to the subject, that it was desirable to have such a Board as that contemplated in the Bill before the House. When the measure was introduced to the House, it was stated that if it should be thought that this was not the proper time to bring it forward, and if it were found that a general assent would not be given to the measure, it should be given up. After taking due time to consider, as he understood there was no objection to the proposition, the Bill was brought forward; indeed, the preponderance of opinion in favour of it was so great, that they meant to proceed with it. Paying all due deference to the opinion of the hon. Member for Winchester, yet his opinion could not weigh in opposition to all those who were ready to support the Bill. He did not think it possible, if the duties of the proposed Board were to be added to the Board of Trade, that they could be adequately performed, considering what that Board had already to do. It was, therefore, desirable that the Bill should pass without delay. The House, therefore, had better proceed with the measure, although it was found impossible to invest the Commissioners who might be appointed under the Act, with all that power and authority which could be exercised by Railway Committees in Parliament.
MR. S. WORTLEYthought that the Bill ought only to continue until the end of next Session.
MR. WARBURTONsaid, that the difficulty which was to be contended with year after year, was the influence of Members of that House who were connected with railways; which influence was considerably on the increase in both Houses of Parlia-
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ment; and, unless the new department now about to be instituted could stem that influence and power, it would not effect much good, nor would it secure the confidence of the public. Any one who sat on Parliamentary Committees connected with railways must be aware of the number of Bills which were introduced, and of the immense number of clauses of which they consisted, many of which involved interests often very injurious to the public; but they were so involved and intricate, that instead of being rejected, they passed in the lump without consideration. It might be wrong to set up a board without accurately defining its duties; but as the present Bill arose out of a case of emergency, he would give it his support.
MR. MUNTZwas of opinion, that in regard to the difficulties which attended the subject, the state of matters would not be improved by delay. He anticipated a great saving of expense to the country from the institution of such a board as that proposed.
MR. WAKLEYdid not think the report presented yesterday was such as to induce the House to entertain much regard for Commissions or Commissioners. But the disadvantages which might attend such boards, might, in some cases, be met by countervailing benefits. Considering the gigantic evils connected with the railway system, he could imagine nothing more incompetent or insufficient for the removal of those evils than the proposition before the House. He disliked the division of authority. Why should not one man be selected to superintend the department which the Bill proposed to entrust to five? Those five Commissioners had no efficient authority; all they could do was to report in certain cases; and on going over the Bill, he really could not discover that they would render any services to the public: with such a number, the responsibility was so divided, that blame could not be brought home to the proper parties, unless a Committee were to sit for four or five months to carry out an investigation. But if they had one man to deal with, they knew where to put their finger. Looking to the incomplete and inefficient powers given by the Bill, he for one should entreat the Government to postpone the measure till another Session of Parliament. From the tone of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell), he inferred that the noble Lord's own inclination was to follow that course.
The House divided on the Question that

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the Speaker do not leave the Chair:—Ayes 64; Noes 0: Majority 64.
[We need not publish the List of the Ayes; the two tellers for the Noes were Colonel Sibthorp and Mr. Escott.]
House in Committee on the Bill.
On the First Clause being put,
COLONEL SIBTHORPwas surprised at the conduct of those Gentlemen who, after having spoken against the Bill, yet voted for it when the House came to divide. Thank God! he had never been guilty of such despicable conduct; his course had always been consistent and independent. The introduction of so important a Bill as this at so late a period of the Session, was nothing less than a gross trick played upon unsuspecting and absent Members. Had he chosen last night, he could have stopped the further progress of the Bill this Session, because there were not forty Members present at the time that it was read a second time; but he scorned any underhand work.
LORD G. SOMERSETsaid, that whatever were the formation of the new Board, its superintendent should be a political officer connected with the existing Government, and removable with that Government. If otherwise, the Government of the day would be obliged to support him in all the proceedings of the Board, however inconvenient—and yet such a consequence would follow if that public officer held his situation independent of the existing Government. The House had that observation fully verified in what occurred respecting the Poor Law Commissioners, the Government of the day being obliged to take their part, although not responsible for their proceedings. Let there be a proper efficient officer placed at the head of the department, assisted by a well-qualified secretary, and the best results might be expected to follow; but let it be arranged that the head of the department change with the Government. He did not think it would answer any good purpose to have a large board which would be even nominally independent of any superintending power.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the Government were of opinion that the President of the new Commission to be appointed under this Bill, should be a Member of either that or the other House of Parliament, so that he might be prepared to furnish any information connected with the Commission to such Members of the House as might desire it. He was happy to find that the jealousy of
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members of such boards holding seats in Parliament was rapidly dying away. The object of the Government in introducing this Bill was to appoint men in the place of the former Commissioners, who would command the confidence of the public, which, from some reason or other, the late Commissioners did not, notwithstanding their great talents and fitness for their office. The only new burdens which this Bill would impose upon the public would be the payment of the services of the President and two Commissioners.
Bill went through the Committee, and was ordered to be reported.

PATENT COMMISSION BILL—THE CHIEF JUSTICESHIP OF BOMBAY.
On the Motion of the ATTORNEY GENERAL that this Bill be read a Second Time,
LORD G. BENTINCKsaid: Mr. Speaker, I do not rise to cast any impediment in the way of carrying this Bill, for the purpose of covering the transactions which have of late taken place with respect to the appointment of the Chief Justice of Bombay; but after the observations that have been made upon my conduct, with reference to this transaction, elsewhere, I am sure the House will grant me this indulgence—I am sure the House will expect me to endeavour to justify my own course and conduct. I will not stop to excuse myself for having hastily, on Wednesday last, under an erroneous impression, expressed my apology to this House and two noble Lords for the charge which I made against them. Sir, I am told that by that retractation I have shown that I am a man of that levity that I can retract without investigation, as easily as I can make a charge without investigation. Now, Sir, if it were true that I had made little or no investigation before I made the qualified retractation I did the other morning, I should take little discredit to myself that upon the slightest suspicion that I had made an unjust and unfounded charge I had hastened to this House to retract it. But it will be in the recollection of the House that the retractation which I made rested upon the authority of the Clergy List. Now, Sir, if I am to be told that I displayed a want of investigation and great levity by making that retractation on the authority of the Clergy List, I take leave to say that the nobleman who has made this charge of levity against me is the last who ought to have made it. The Clergy List is, as we all know, nothing

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more than a collation from and a copy of the Ecclesiastical Report laid before Parliament. That Ecclesiastical Report was made by a Royal Commission issued in the year 1835 by the Government of which Sir R. Peel was the head in this House, and Lord Lyndhurst, the Lord Chancellor, in the other. That Report, which stated that this living of Nocton was not in the gift of the Lord Chancellor of England, but in the gift of the Hon. George Hobart, was signed, among other great names, by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Archbishop of York, the Bishop of London, and the Bishop of Lincoln, in whose diocese this place happens to be, by the Marquess of Lansdowne, Mr. Goulburn, and many others. I think, therefore, Sir, that it cannot fairly be said that it was not on light grounds that I became alarmed on this point, and the conviction seizing me that I might be in error, I hastened to this House to withdraw the charge; but for the substance of the charge, I say now again, when it turns out that my correspondent was correct in his information, and the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commission wrong, as I said before, that it is a subject of great suspicion. Sir, I do not pretend to say that, in a matter of this kind, which takes place between two Cabinet Ministers, Colleagues in office, it is likely that I should be able to produce letters, or documentary evidence, absolutely to prove my case; but when I remind the House of the circumstances which took place on these occasions, I think, Sir, that the House and the country will consider that, notwithstanding the explanation which has been offered elsewhere, the matter is still one of grave suspicion, and that there has been, to say no more, at least a friendly exchange of patronage between the two Cabinet Ministers. Sir, it will be in the recollection of the House that the President of the Board of Control received a letter from Sir H. Roper, not a letter of resignation, but a conditional offer to resign on, but not before, the 2nd of November next. Sir, that letter was written on the 14th of February last, and arrived in England at the Board of Control on the 27th of March. By the admissions made elsewhere, we learn that the appointment was offered, in the first instance, to a gentleman of eminence at the bar, and that this offer was made by Lord Ripon without any previous communication with Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst. The offer, however, was declined by the gentleman
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to whom it was made. This must have occurred between the 27th of March and the month of May. Dean Hobart died suddenly on the 8th of May; and I could, if I had a Committee of Inquiry, show that up to this time the answer to all applications made to the Lord Chancellor, or at least to many of them, was, that the office of the Chief Justice of Bombay was not in his gift, but in the gift of the President of the Board of Control. Well, Sir, as I said, on the 8th of May the Dean of Windsor, the incumbent of Nocton, died suddenly. My Lord Brownlow, as is proved by the correspondence, and in the account of this matter given elsewhere, which has since been published in the newspapers, applied for the presentation to that living. The living of Nocton is worth 800 l. a year, though its cure of souls amounts but to 553. My Lord Brownlow's candidate, Mr. Bagley, was the favourite; but my Lord Ripon and Lady Ripon alike expressed the most intense desire to have this patronage disposed of in the way they pointed out to the Lord Chancellor in favour of a friend of theirs. My Lord Brownlow was disappointed. Lord Ripon's candidate was presented to the living. What happens afterwards? Why then, we are told, Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst sent down the names of some six or seven gentlemen, for his approbation, to the President of the Board of Control, as being persons suited for this high judicial office at Bombay. Well, we do not hear who these other gentlemen, besides Mr. D. Pollock, were, nor do we hear what degree of recommendation was given by Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst to each of them; but if I had a Committee of Inquiry, I think I should be in a condition to show that though Mr. D. Pollock had applied for the office of Chief Justice, not of Bombay but of Madras, some two or three years ago, yet that at his great age, two or three years making a considerable difference, he had not made any application on this occasion to be appointed Chief Justice of Bombay. More than this, Sir, I believe that this office was not only unsolicited by Mr. D. Pollock, but that Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst himself, through the interference of the Lord Chief Baron, was the person who almost forced the acceptance of this office on Mr. D. Pollock. Well, then, if I show you that Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst neither volunteered his advice, nor was asked for it, previously to the living of Nocton becoming

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vacant, but that after the 8th of May, when the Dean of Windsor had died, that his advice was sought, and that, then, after Lord Ripon's candidate had been preferred to the living of Nocton, Mr. David Pollock, by whose appointment a place could alone be made for the private secretary of Lord Chancellor Lynd-hurst, was appointed Chief Justice of Bombay—shall I not have stated matters that make it as clear as it can be, that this was a friendly exchange of patronage between two Cabinet Ministers—one piece of patronage being in the Church, the other piece of patronage being in the law? But now Sir, for the statement which has been made. We are told by Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst that he had nothing to do with these appointments. I think, however, if the matter were inquired into, it would be clearly shown that he had a great deal to do with them, through the intervention of the Lord Chief Baron. We are told moreover, that these appointments occurred in regular course; that Mr. Phillips vacated his appointment as Chief Commissioner of Bankruptcy at Liverpool, in consequence of the vacancy made by the appointment of Mr. D. Pollock to be Chief Justice of Bombay. Now, Sir, we are sure that the appointment of Mr. Phillips took place on the 29th of June; and that the appointment of Mr. Pollock to be Chief Justice of Bombay did not take place till the 1st of July. So here is the appointment of the one preceding by two days the resignation of the other; and this is the second article of indictment I have to bring forward against these two Cabinet Ministers. The office of Commissioner for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors is an office created by an Act of Parliament passed in the year 1838, under which the appointments were vested in the Crown. The appointment of Chief Commissioner, as of every other Commissioner, is an appointment to be held, not during pleasure, but during good behaviour; these Commissioners are irremovable by the Crown, except on the joint address of both Houses of Parliament. At any rate, you have in this case of a high legal appointment a second instance where the resignation of the holder of the office is anticipated by the appointment of a successor, namely, of the Chief Commissioner of Bankruptcy from Liverpool. This, I say, is an infringement, not only of the common law and of the Constitution, but it is a direct infringement of an Act of Parliament. Again I am told that
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when I impugned the qualifications of Mr. Perry to hold the office of Chief Commissioner of Bankruptcy at Liverpool, in doing so I displayed such ignorance of these matters as renders me "wholly unworthy the attention of any reasonable assembly." Now, Sir, I for one do not wish to disparage the talents of Mr. Perry; I am willing to take Lord Lyndhurst's word for the great ability of Mr. Perry—for his untiring industry, for his great zeal, and his great integrity, and for his fidelity to his Patron—a virtue which I for one do not underrate—but, Sir, I say that Mr. Perry may possess all the talents and good qualities that Lord Lyndhurst may be willing to attribute to him; yet, nevertheless, I have a right to charge Lord Lyndhurst, in the name of the public, with impropriety in the appointment of this gentleman for an office of this highly responsible character, where he must have the adjudication of causes involving, in one of the greatest commercial towns in the Empire, property to the annual amount of between 200,000 l. and 300,000 l.; I have, I say, in the name of the public, a right to impugn the appointment to such a situation of any one who has not the public confidence as well as the confidence of the Lord Chancellor himself. The public have a right to expect that, for an office of that importance, a barrister of high distinction—of talents not only known to his private friends, but to the public also—ought to be appointed; and I dare appeal to the bar, and ask the bar whether they were satisfied when Mr. Perry was appointed to that office? Yes, Sir, I dare ask whether the bar was satisfied when a gentleman was appointed to that office, who, I stated the other evening, had been ten years out of practice, but, as I am informed to-night, has been nineteen years out of practice? Is it possible that in such circumstances that gentleman is so well qualified by his public acts, and so well known to the public, as to entitle him to the confidence of that great community, a large portion of whose affairs he is appointed to adjudicate? I think, therefore, that whilst I am perfectly willing to admit that Mr. Perry may have all the good qualities that Lord Lyndhurst has ascribed to him, yet since he has not had the luck to rise in his profession to public eminence, he is not a fit person for the appointment of Chief Commissioner of Bankruptcy at Liverpool. Sir, I now come to the original charge, which is the appointment of Mr. D. Pollock to be

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Chief Justice of Bombay. It has been endeavoured by the defenders of these transactions to be set forth, that it is only a common error that has been made in this case, and that it is a mistake which has been committed by all previous Governments of this country; and many instances were quoted to prove that assertion. But I want to know if there is any single instance in which a Chief Justice has been instanter superseded on his announcement of his readiness to make a prospective resignation? I should like to see all the letters of resignation that have been written by the different Chief Justices in the Colonies; and I venture to say, that there will be found none which will run on all fours with this case. Let it be remembered that Sir H. Roper did not offer to resign absolutely; he distinctly and plainly stated that he would resign on the 2nd of November following, when he should have completed the period of service which entitled him to a retiring pension, but not before. Nevertheless on this communication being made to the Board of Control, Her Majesty's Ministers—for there are four of them concerned—take on themselves immediately to appoint Sir H. Roper's successor, contrary to law, and sacrificing Sir H. Roper's right and title to the increase of pension, to the extent of 300 l., to which he would have been entitled by holding on his office till the 2nd of November next. I say this is intolerable; for, though the Crown has the absolute right to remove at pleasure in those cases, yet as such proceedings would be contrary to justice and to the spirit of the Constitution, if the affair had stopped here it would not have had the sanction of Parliament. But, Sir, it does not stop here. We are told that this is only a blot, which now, for the first time, has been hit; but I must remind Lord Lyndhurst and the House that I am not the first who has hit this blot. This blot was first hit by Mr. Stephen, the Under Secretary of the Colonial Office. The President of the Board of Control was warned by a letter from the Colonial Office, that what he was doing was contrary to law. The first demand for letters patent to be made out, appointing a new Chief Justice for Bombay, was forwarded by the President of the Board of Control to the Colonial Office on the 16th of June. It was returned dishonoured by the Colonial Office. The President of the Board of Control, though we hear from Lord Lyndhurst that he is no lawyer, was pro
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hac vice made a lawyer, for he was informed by Mr. Secretary Gladstone that this which he desired to do was contrary to law, and that it was not legally possible to confer in reversion the Chief Justiceship of Bombay on Mr. D. Pollock. On this the letter to the Colonial Office was withdrawn. Whether the letter to a similar effect that was sent to the East Indian Direction was withdrawn too, I cannot pretend to say. I believe in their haste that was forgotten to be done. But, Sir, then came the question with Lord Ripon, "How are we to escape from the law?" The fact was, no appointment could be properly made, and he knew it. Yes, Sir, no appointment could with propriety be made, and Lord Ripon knew it. Unless an absolute resignation by the Chief Justice of Bombay had taken place, it was impossible, except by a violent removal of Sir Henry Roper; and therefore it became necessary that a resignation by him should be recited in the patent, revoking his appointment, and conferring it on Mr. D. Pollock, that Sir Henry Roper had resigned. They consulted for that purpose. They adopted—I will use no hard language—they adopted a legal fiction; the language of these "Letters Patent" was no cold and idle phraseology, it was no mere profitless form of words—they were words which put at the disposal of Lord Chancellor Lyndhurst the Chief Commissionership of Bankruptcy at Liverpool, worth 1,800 l. a year. Lord Ripon wrote a new letter to the Colonial Office, in which he stated that the Chief Justice of Bombay had actually resigned. A patent was accordingly drawn out, and signed by Mr. Secretary Gladstone, affirming—deliberately affirming — not through any oversight, but of "malice prepense" affirming—that which he knew not to be true, that Sir Henry Roper had resigned. Now, of this complicated transaction—I must not call it, as I did once before, "a nefarious job"—but of this complicated transaction, the result is, that Lord Lyndhurst appoints a friend of Lord Ripon to this much-desired living of Nocton; Lord Ripon appoints, through the means of this legal fiction—not Lord Lyndhurst's friend, but—a gentleman whose promotion will make a vacancy for Lord Lyndhurst's friend, to the Chief Justiceship of Bombay. In the same way Sir J. Graham appoints to the office which is still held by Mr. D. Pollock, and then Lord Lyndhurst obtains the object of his own ambition, and of his own

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wishes—he has the Chief Commissionership of Bankruptcy at Liverpool worth 1,800 l. a year to give away to his private secretary Mr. Perry. Now, recollecting all this, and recollecting that Sir J. Graham, as Secretary of State for the Home Department, appoints Mr. Phillips to the office of Commissioner for the Relief of Insolvent Debtors two days before any vacancy had been made in it; I trust, Sir, that I have, in the opinion of the House, made out a clear case in all the points that I originally took up; and having done that I hope I may be permitted to say a word respecting myself. Sir, I have been compared to Napoleon, of whom it is said, "that nothing was too great for his malignity, or too small for the grasp of his rapacity;" reference is made to "my early associations and early habits, which are assumed to have imbued me with "base, selfish, and sordid motives of action;" and the world is told that a charge coming from such a one as me finds its best antidote in the character of the calumniator. Now, Sir, I have no reason to feel ashamed of my early associations or habits. I have not yet abandoned, nor will I abandon, those associations. It is among the objects of my pride that I am still a steward of the Jockey Club. I say, Sir, that among the gentlemen of the turf there are men of as distinguished honour and character, and there ever have been men of as distinguished honour and character, as any to be found in political life. I am not about to retaliate, or to attack the life or character of the noble and learned Lord. Respect for his great age; respect for his high station; respect for his great abilities; respect, above all, for that position which denies to him the right of calling me to account elsewhere were I to address to him the language he has used to me, shall prevent me from retaliating, or from saying a word in disparagement of the private character of my Lord Lyndhurst. But when it is imputed to me "that there is nothing too great for my malignity, or too small for the grasp of my rapacity," and that I am governed by selfish, sordid, and base motives, I did hope that the whole course of my political life, in which it has been my good fortune to have such powerful friends as Mr. Canning and Lord Stanley, would have been a protection against a charge of being impelled by motives that are in any way either selfish, sordid, interested, or base. I have sat for eighteen years in Parliament, and eight years before that I had been engaged in public life under Mr. Canning;
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but from that time to this I have never received one shilling of the public money, except as an officer of the army in the service of the Crown; and I defy any Member of any Government to say, however faithfully I may have supported them, that I ever asked them for employment or patronage of any kind whatever for myself. Sir, I should not have been so much surprised if these charges had come from any other person than Lord Lyndhurst; I should not have been so much surprised if any one else had alleged against me charges of the description he has preferred. The noble and learned Lord has compared me to the most despicable insects, and has accused me of using coarse and venomous invective. Sir, I will not say of Lord Lyndhurst, as he has said of me, that his calumnies are coarse, or that his weapons are of the same description. I will not deny that his sarcasms are addressed in more classical language; I admit the sharp edge and polish of his weapon; I admit that while I wield the broad sword and the bayonet, he has skill to use the rapier, and uses it with the power of a giant. But when the noble and learned Lord accuses me of selfishness, of base motives, of sordid idea, and of rapacity, I think if he were to carry his memory back to Friday, the 10th of July last, it might occur to him that he ought to have been the very last man to charge one with whom he was willing and anxious so lately to associate himself of such vile attributes as these. If I have declaimed against the want of principle of the late Government—if I have vehemently attacked it in this House, those attacks were made previous to the 10th of July; and yet Lord Lyndhurst condescended on that day to send me a messenger, accompanied by his own secretary, whom I did not see—but the messenger was one whose truth I could rely upon, for he is a merchant in the city of London, respected not only in the city of London, but in each of the four quarters of the globe, where he has extensive transactions—Lord Lyndhurst condescended to send me a messenger, who waited upon me, not quite before I was out of bed in the morning, but who called upon me on this special and important business, such was his haste, before nine o'clock in the morning of that day. An exposition was given of what had passed in the Cabinet of the Queen, and a proposition was made to me — perhaps with no more truth than the charges which have been alleged against me by the noble Lord—but the proposi-

945
tion was made to me, in anticipation of the debate on the Sugar Duties, that the minority which was represented by him to exist in the late Cabinet upon it should join in supporting me upon that question I do not know whether Lord Lyndhurst and the three Colleagues who he intimated agreed with him were to serve with me or under me; but this I know, that had I been ambitious, had it been my object only to obtain power, the opportunity was offered me; whilst the breath which had announced the Royal Assent to the passing of the Corn Bill was scarcely cold, the proposition was made to me that I should join with those of the late Government, who, while they had supported, had condemned the measures of that Government. And it was proposed by Lord Lyndhurst that he should personally wait upon that selfish, sordid, base, and rapacious individual who is now addressing you. Sir, it was not necessary for me to do more than to decline the honour of the visit, and to refer Lord Lyndhurst to Lord Stanley. I know not whether it is the frankness of my language to his messenger, which may have been, unintended by me, repeated to him, which has not been forgiven; for certainly I intimated to that gentleman, perhaps in too strong language, the manner in which my feelings revolted against any such association; and while I said I would not interfere with others, if any there were, who might be willing to join in such a coalition, I stated, for myself, that I could be no party to it. And now, Sir, I trust I have justified myself in the eyes of the House and the country, and satisfied all that, at least up to the 10th of July last, and before I turned public attention to the personal conduct of the late Chancellor, I could not have been, in the estimation of Lord Lyndhurst, that base, sordid, selfish, and rapacious man he seeks now to represent me.
MR. S. WORTLEYwould not follow the noble Lord through the statement he had made, nor advert to more than one portion of it. It would be extremely painful to him to put himself in collision with the noble Lord; and he would not presume to undertake the defence of those hon. and noble persons to whom the noble Lord had referred. But there was one individual whose name was not so distinguished as theirs, and to whom justice was equally due; an allusion had been made to that individual, and to that alone should he refer. On a former occasion the noble Lord had alluded to Mr. Perry, and his
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appointment to the Court of Bankruptcy at Liverpool, in terms of condemnation; he had pronounced him as utterly unfit for that appointment, and he had that evening reiterated the assertion. He (Mr. Wortley) was not going to give any opinion of the qualifications of Mr. Perry, or of his fitness for the office; he had no personal acquaintance with Mr. Perry; he only knew that he had been a member of the bar for twenty-one years, and though he had not practised during a great part of that time, yet, as Secondary to the Lord Chancellor, he could not be otherwise than cognizant of the law of bankruptcy he was called on to administer. But he knew from Mr. Perry himself, that the noble Lord had been put in possession of facts for which he had listened in vain to the noble Lord's statement that evening, and which the noble Lord, in common candour, ought to have made known. [Lord G. BENTINCK: I forgot it.] He would sit down immediately if the noble Lord wished to make that addition to his statement.
LORD G. BENTINCK: I am very glad the hon. Gentleman has mentioned the circumstance. I did not think it was of so much importance. I believe I stated on the last occasion, that Mr. Commissioner Holroyd went down to Liverpool as the "dry-nurse of Mr. Perry." It has been already stated in the other House, by Lord Lyndhurst, and so circumstantially that I thought there was no occasion to reiterate the statement here, that Mr. Holroyd went down to Liverpool on the 23rd of June, while the appointment of Mr. Perry was in agitation, no doubt to clear off the arrears. He left immediately Mr. Perry arrived, and the latter proceeded with his duties without any assistance.
MR. S. WORTLEYrejoiced that the omission of the statement had been unintentional on the part of the noble Lord, and that he had given him the opportunity of supplying it. The matter was not of so little importance as the noble Lord considered; he did not intend to injure the reputation of Mr. Perry, but he could be hardly aware of the effect his imputation was calculated to produce on a Gentleman in Mr. Perry's position. The noble Lord had appealed to the bar to say whether the appointment was approved of by that body; but he apprehended the bar was a bad tribunal to refer such a question to; in the first place interest might sometimes warp its judgment; and he would remind the noble Lord that some of the most

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eminent Judges on the Bench, and the ablest functionaries of the legal profession, had been taken from comparative obscurity as regarded practice in the courts. The noble Lord could hardly have selected any terms more injurious to Mr. Perry. The fact was this:—Mr. Holroyd was sent down to help Mr. Ludlow, in the absence of Mr. Phillips; Mr. Perry arrived on Saturday night, and Mr. Holroyd returned to London on the Sunday, so that there was not the slightest reason for saying he had given any assistance to Mr. Perry. As to the rest of the noble Lord's statement, he should not touch it; those whom it concerned were well able to defend themselves.
COLONEL WOODasked the noble Lord, if the individual who waited on him from Lord Lyndhurst stated that had he any authority from other Members of the late Cabinet, or solely the authority of Lord Lyndhurst himself?
LORD G. BENTINCK: I stated distinctly that the messenger who came to me came authorized by Lord Lyndhurst alone. I distinctly stated that the allegation was made to me that other Members of the Cabinet were ready to join with him, but that very likely the representation had no more truth in it than the charges made against me.
Bill read a second time and committed.

SMALL DEBTS BILL.
House in Committee on the Bill.
On Clause 19,
MR. WORTLEYsaid, he conceived that this clause did nothing more or less than convert those local judges into masters in Chancery. The clause was to the effect that the judges appointed under the Act should perform certain duties, and make certain inquiries and reports in causes depending in the High Court of Chancery. It, in fact, virtually made them masters in Chancery; and though it might be a good thing to have local masters in Chancery in the country, yet it would be a most important change in the Court of Chancery, and if at all made should be effected deliberately, and as a portion of a measure for reforming that court. But to introduce into this Bill a clause which the Legislature had scarcely an opportunity of considering, was extremely questionable. If the Government chose to persist in it, he would not divide upon it, but it appeared to him to introduce an extensive change in the Court of Chancery.
The ATTORNEY GENERALsaid, that the exercise of the power to which the attention of the House had been called, would depend upon the Lord Chancellor, who would not set that power in motion except he was satisfied of the expediency of doing so; but at the same time it was well to give notice to the gentlemen who would be appointed judges that they might hereafter be called upon to discharge the duties referred to in the clause. There were many cases in the Court of Chancery where the fund was so small that the expenses of an inquiry in London would exhaust the fund; whereas that expense could be avoided if there was an authorized party in the country to examine the witnesses on the spot, and in point of principle there could no objection to it.
Clause agreed to.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were agreed to. The House resumed. Bill to be reported.
House adjourned at Eleven o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS. — 2a. Wreck and Salvage; Naval and Military Departments; Steam Navigation; Lunatic Asylums (Ireland): Income Tax Deduction-Customs Duties (No. 2); New Zealand Loan Act Amendment.
Reported. Commons Inclosure (No. 3); Public Works and Fisheries; Public Works (Ireland) (No. 3); British Possessions; County Works Presentments (Ireland) (No. 2); House of Commons Offices; Spirit Licenses, etc. Duties; Turnpike Roads (Ireland); Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics; Public Works, Fisheries, etc.; Public
926
Works Commissioners (Ireland); Baths and Washhouses (Ireland); Contagious Diseases.
3a. and passed. Exclusive Privilege of Trading Abolition (Ireland).

DEATH BY ACCIDENTS COMPENSATION BILL.
LORD CAMPBELLmoved that the Commons' Amendments to this Bill be agreed to. The Bill originally provided that the compensation granted by juries should go to the next of kin; but the other House had made an Amendment by which the compensation was to be apportioned among the members of the family. He regarded this Bill as the most important measure that had come before their Lordships since the Corn Bill. Its effect would be that, if railway companies, from a spirit of false economy, carried on their undertakings without proper stock, or appointed persons destitute of competent skill to work their lines, juries would be able to give such an amount of compensation to the families of those who lost their lives in consequence as would read such companies a proper lesson. It had been stated in the other House, when it was known that he had had charge of the Bill, "that it was carelessly drawn," and that "it must have been framed by an amateur legislator." Persons who made such statements could not be aware that the Bill had been the subject of much careful consideration, and that it had received the Amendments and been approved of by the present Lord Chancellor, the late Lord Chancellor, and Lord Denman. Taken in consideration with the Deodands' Abolition Bill, which had received the Royal Assent, the present measure effected a most important amendment in the law of England.
Commons' Amendments considered and agreed to.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES BILL.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, in moving the Order of the Day for going into Committee upon this Bill, said it was a Bill for the more speedy removal of nuisances. Their Lordships would recollect that in the 2nd or 3rd year of the reign of His late Majesty King William IV., on the appearance of cholera in this country, he (the Marquess of Lansdowne) introduced a Bill for the purpose of the more effectual prevention of cholera, by authorizing the Privy Council to promulgate certain regulations which were to have the force of law under peculiar circumstances. That Bill met with the approbation of their

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Lordships and the other House of Parliament; and having been carried, it had worked extremely well, had produced the most beneficial effects in many instances, and had not been the subject of any sort of complaint whatever; it was, however, thought right at the time to make it only a temporary Bill, and it had some time since expired. Now, although he had the satisfaction of already stating in that House, what he was now enabled to state with greater confidence than before, that, notwithstandiag a great deal of apprehension had existed during the summer with regard to the reappearance of that malady in this country, there certainly had been no instance whatever in London, or, as far as he was informed, in England, in which the peculiar features of that malady had been met with; yet it was true that that season had been altogether unwholesome, and attended with a great deal of illness, not partaking of the graver character, but certainly having the tendency, and of that peculiar description which is promoted by a want of cleanliness, morality, and of the proper channels in the neighbourhood of crowded districts to carry off the filth generated there. By this Bill, therefore, it was intended to provide that where, in any district, two medical officers should go before two justices of the peace and declare their opinion that the state of any particular dwelling or mass of dwellings was such as to cause a just alarm of their originating a contagious disorder, those justices should have the power of causing those dwellings to be whitewashed by the inhabitants. There was to be a power to proceed against the owner or occupier; for, in many instances, the occupiers were so poor that they were not capable of carrying the law into effect, and the owner should be charged. The Act was to be put in force by the town council; and where there was no town council, by the trustees or commissioners for paving and cleansing; and where there was no such body, then by the boards of guardians. Independently of the apprehensions which had existed with respect to the cholera, it was highly expedient to improve the law for better cleansing the habitations of the poorer classes.
The EARL of RANFURLYinquired whether the Bill was to extend to Ireland?
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNEreplied, that it was the intention of the Government to introduce another Bill similar in its character, for Ireland.
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHen-
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tirely approved of the provisions of the Bill; but he hoped in the observations the noble Marquess the President of the Council, had made, he did not intend to convey that the cholera was a contagious disease.
The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE, in reply, observed that the noble Earl had mistaken his meaning. He had not said, neither did he intend to convey, that the cholera was a contagious disease. The highest medical authorities in the kingdom had stated it as their opinion that the disease was not a contagious disorder
The EARL of ELLENBOROUGHmerely called attention to the noble Marquess's observations in order to prevent alarm, which in many cases had the effect of causing the disorder.
Bill reported, without amendment.
House adjourned.