Sitting of 6 March 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—2°. Bastardy; Consolidated Fund (£8,000,000).
Private.—1°. Trent Valley Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Shaw, from Ashnowen, and 4 other places in Ireland, for Encouragement to Church Education Society (Ireland).—By Mr. Broadley, from Land Proprietors and others of Harlthorpe, and 21 other places in the County of York, and by Mr. O. Duncombe, for Northallerton, for Agricultural Relief from Taxation.—By Sir G. Strickland, from Peace Society of Preston, against Increase of Naval and Military Establishments.—By Mr. Brotherton, from Heytesbury, Mr. Pendarves, from Lostwithiel, and 2 other places in County of Cornwall Mr. Strutt, from Derby (2); Earl of Arundel and Surrey, from Lanfair and 2 other places; and from Dalbeathie (Scotland), for Diminishing the Number of Public Houses.

RAILWAY CLAUSES CONSOLIDATION BILL.
On Clause 20, which allowed railway companies to deviate to a certain extent from the specified line,
Mr. Darbysaid, he entertained great objection to the clause as it now stood. No doubt the same clause had been introduced in all former Bills; but it must be remembered, that the objection to it was considerably decreased when railway projects were few and far between. If the clause were allowed to remain in its present form, a railway company would have power to do what they thought proper with an estate, and deprive the proprietor for an unlimited time of his right of ownership. Still he must admit, if they struck this clause out altogether, and substituted none other for it, great difficulties would arise. They would have one Committee taking one view of the case, and another restoring the clause in its present objectionable form, and thus in many instances the hardship he complained of would be continued. He thought, then, some special clause ought to be introduced; but one more modified than that which the present Bill contained. The next difficulty that had been suggested to him was, that the Bill had been before the public for sometime, and all the Railway Acts had been prepared in accordance with its provisions. If, however, the
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clause were to be so modified as to meet his views, the promoters of these railway schemes would be put to the expense and trouble of serving an immense number of additional notices. Well, but why could not the engineer state in Committee how much land he would require for the purposes of his line? If he were to do this, the difficulty would be got rid of; and then, with respect to future railways, they might now frame and pass a special clause. He was exceedingly obliged to his noble Friend for the course he had taken, in postponing this clause; and he trusted on a future occasion they would be able, in some way or other, to remedy these evils, which, he must confess, from what he had heard, had not been exaggerated, but on the contrary, he thought the facts had been rather understated.
Mr. Henleyconceived that the House should look at this question in this way. There were now two hundred and forty Bills for Railways before it; and would it run the risk of now making a mass of faulty legislation, which might involve very serious questions as regarded property, merely for the sake of passing those two hundred and forty Bills?
Colonel Sibthorphoped that hon. Members would receive sufficient time for the consideration of this clause before they should be called upon to pass it. For his own part, he would have no hesitation in saying that the clause as it now stood would never give satisfaction to the landowners in this country, for this reason—that it, in fact, meant nothing more nor less than the absolute total annihilation of every estate in the country for the benefit of a few speculators. He should like to know from the noble Lord (Lord G. Somerset) whether he had considered this clause with a view to its further modification.
Mr. Tatton Egerton: The great difficulty experienced by all Committees on Bills of this sort was, that sufficient time had not been afforded for a full consideration of such a clause as that now under discussion. In the present instance, however, that difficulty could be removed, by postponing the clause until after the recess; and that interval could be employed by the engineer in endeavouring to ascertain, as minutely as possible, the quantity of land he would require to take up at either side. Another point to which he wished to call attention was, the absolute

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necessity there appeared to him for the introduction of some general clause upon this subject, in order to remove the difficulty that Committees had to encounter in a special clause in each separate Bill. The noble Lord (Lord G. Somerset) had certainly devoted much attention to this point, and therefore the House should feel much indebted to him.
Sir G. Stricklandhoped that this would form one of the clauses in a Consolidation Bill, instead of being left to Private Bills; for in its present shape it was a source of the greatest alarm to every landowner in the country. Indeed, he had thought of asking what would their ancestors say, if they could but look up from their graves, and behold the manner in which the estates they had left their heirs had been infringed upon and cut up by those railway companies? He had given this clause his closest consideration; but he felt bound to say, that as it now stood he thought it would be by no means satisfactory. The suggestion of the noble Lord opposite, to reduce the power of deviation from 1,000 to 300 yards—[Lord G. Somerset: To 500.] Well, even to 500, was one that would go far to remove causes of complaint; but he thought the House ought to consider what was the smallest possible space to which they should reduce the power of the engineer to deviate, consistent with the facilities necessary for making a railway. For, after all, what was it but a bargain between the engineer and the owner of the land for the purchase and sale of a certain quantity of clay or gravel? Again, he would say, limit the engineer as much as possible, even to one hundred yards.
Lord G. Somersethad no doubt, but that by Tuesday next, or whatever day the Committee should adjourn to, this clause would be framed so as to meet the wishes of all parties.
Mr. Hawessaid, that any course which might be taken must be attended with some inconvenience, if there were not such a clause as that which was contained in this Bill. He was sorry, therefore, that the noble Lord and the hon. Gentleman opposite had consented to the postponement of this clause; and he thought they were taking a considerable responsibility respecting it. He had taken the liberty, when last in Committee, of stating his views respecting the difficulty which was likely to arise from the operation of a clause of this
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kind. He had done this in answer to the objection of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Hinde), and he apprehended that the difficulty would be greater from not adopting a clause of this character, than if they did adopt it. The power at present possessed was altogether insufficient for the right direction of engineers. Now, he believed, that it was impossible for engineers to ascertain beforehand precisely what they would require, and there ought, therefore, to be some latitude given to them. They could not always ascertain what land they would require—and, indeed, the opportunity of making the requisite observation was sometimes denied to them. The hon. Member for Lincoln had made an observation to the effect, that if he had seen a surveyor setting a flagstaff on his land, to ascertain what land and which land was requited for a railway which would pass through his estate, he would resort to a very unpleasant argument to induce him to desist. [Col. Sibthorp: The argumentum ad baculum.] Precisely; and he thought, that this was a very likely mode of preventing an engineer from obtaining that accurate information which hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to require. There were other cases to which he need not refer, but they had occurred only last year, and were sufficiently notorious. They should also remember that the Committees were called upon to report specially to the House; that the power delegated would be specially applied to every Private Bill in Committee, in which the main question ought to be what course a railway should take. Now the power given by this clause was a definite power, and he thought it was better to know what powers were given, if they gave any powers at all. There was no question but that Gentlemen who represented the landed interest were anxious to avoid the inconvenience to which they were subjected by making a railway. Members of the landed interest, it was true, were greatly inconvenienced by the making of railways in many cases. Many other classes were put to inconvenience, but it was the landed interest who, in the first instance, felt this inconvenience; and he must say he thought that, as a class, and it was much to their honour, they had readily conceded their property in most cases for the public benefit. They did, it was true, derive advantage from the making of a railway, in common with all

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the country; but they were the first to suffer the disadvantage of its construction, and the last to enjoy the benefit when it was completed; and he was, therefore, anxious that their interests should be secured as far as it was possible to secure them. If the clause which they were discussing was omitted, the whole power of granting land for deviation would be left to the Committee, and the whole of the power of the House would be delegated to such Committee. Hon. Gentlemen should recollect that the Committee would exercise its functions judicially, and, as that was the case, it was, in his (Mr. Hawes') opinion, better to know what power they were about to give.
Mr. Tatton Egertonsaid, that the hon. Member (Mr. Hawes) had professed to be anxious to secure the interests of the landed proprietors; but he (Mr. T. Egerton) conceived that the course the hon. Member wished to be adopted was only likely to affect the interests of the large landed proprietors. Now, they were well able to defend their own rights; but it was the small landed proprietor whose interest ought to be cared for. If a small freeholder were injured, as by such a deviation which was required by this clause he was very likely, nay almost sure to be, he had no power of bearing the expense of bringing his witnesses to London, and proving his injury before the Committee. He, therefore, thought that the latitude given by this clause was excessive, and ought to be abridged. He thought that the engineers were able to ascertain with more precision than they were accustomed to do what land they would require; and not take, as they seemed inclined to take, one, two, or three miles for their spoil earth. One hon. Member said, that it was utterly impossible for an engineer to tell until he arrived at any particular portion of the line where his bricks for tunnels, or stone for his bridges, were to be obtained. There might be something in that, but still he thought that it was no justification for giving such extensive powers, and that when a deviation was permitted, notice ought to be given to the small landed proprietors whose interests would be affected.
Mr. R. Palmerthought that a clause of this nature ought to be inserted; but he did not think that this was sufficiently precise. They could not tell whether it was a thousand yards or only two hundred
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and fifty yards that would be required, and he thought that the engineer ought to say what extent be would require. In many cases what was called a temporary occupation was in fact, and in reality, converted into a permanent one. That was the case with regard to a cutting two miles in length, which the Great Western Railway Company made through his property near Reading. Availing themselves of this power of temporary occupation, they cut through some very excellent land, and left the earth, which spoiled about thirty-six acres, besides making a miserable eye-sore; and although he took legal advice, and was told that he could bring an action to compel its removal, yet as he believed it would be impossible to remove it, he did not think there would be much use in bringing an action. He stated these facts, to show that a temporary occupation was sometimes equal to a permanent one, and he advised the Committee to be cautious in giving such an extensive power.
Clause 20, and the subsequent clauses up to 32, were postponed.
On Clause 32, providing—
"That where a railway crossed any turnpike road or public carriage road, then (unless where otherwise provided by the special Act) such road should be carried over the railway, or the railway should be carried over the road by means of a bridge, of the necessary height and width, to be executed at the expense of the company:"—
Mr. Aglionbysaid, he hoped the noble Lord would consent to insert the word "highways" in this clause, instead of "carriage roads."
Lord G. Somersetintimated that he could not agree to the Amendment proposed.
Mr. Aglionbyexpressed his surprise at such opposition on the part of the noble Lord, when a majority of the Committee had the other day decided in favour of a similar proposal. Though the clause was not the same, the principle was; it was that of extending a just protection to the public in the cases to which the clause referred. He knew the noble Lord had said that the effect would be, in all cases, to prevent railway companies from making roads on a level; but that was a mistake; such power was reserved to the Committee sitting on a special Act, to say whether, in particular cases, roads should be made on a level, or whether the public safety

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could be secured without such a provision. There were many footpaths by which children were accustomed to go to the sea-shore, or other places, for amusement; and where a level road was made for their accommodation; he was told that, in many cases, not even a policeman was placed there to protect the public. He had consulted the agent of one of the largest railways, and also one of the ablest engineers in the country, both of whom told him they had for years felt that the public were not sufficiently protected. He had asked them whether the necessity of having bridges, or conduits, would at all interfere with the progress of the railway business? The reply was, that it would not interfere with it in the least. The public were often driven to use a ladder in ascending and descending when they crossed a railway. He maintained that they ought not to be put to such an inconvenience. If he did not succeed in inserting the word "highways" generally, he should propose to insert in Clause 44, these words:—
"The company shall make convenient ascents and descents, or bridges over, or culverts under, the railway, where necessary for the convenience of the public."
Another clause which had been suggested to him was—
"And in those cases where bridges, either under or over, can be conveniently made and are reasonably required, the company shall, on the requisition of two Justices of the Peace, construct such bridges in lieu of such ascending and descending approaches."
The hon. Member concluded by proposing to substitute "highways" instead of "carriage roads."
Mr. R. Palmeragreed with the hon. Gentleman on this subject. The case of bridle roads was one well deserving consideration. He should suggest a reference to Justices in the case of footways.
Mr. Darbythought that the preservation of the footpaths was of the greatest importance. If there was not something done to compel the companies to make proper ways instead of the paths which they intercepted or destroyed, might they not carry their road across a path, and then make steps in the cuttings on both sides, and leave it to those who used the footpaths to find their way as they could across the rails, even when the train was coming?
Mr. Henleyapproved of the proposition
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of the hon. Member for Cockermouth. It would be a most valuable improvement to bring every footway before the Committee, as well as every carriage way; as those who used the footways were least able to take care of themselves.
Mr. W. Pattenthought the Amendment would do no good unless the suggestion of his hon. Friend the Member for Berkshire (Mr. R. Palmer) were adopted. It would be best to leave it to persons on the spot to say whether the footways and bridle ways should be crossed or not.
Lord G. Somersetthought that the Amendment would lay down a principle which the Committee would find very difficult to carry out. However, as the sense of hon. Members seemed so strongly in its favour, he would not oppose it. But he would propose, either as a new clause or as an addition to this, a provision such as was suggested by the hon. Member for Berkshire. That clause could not be drawn up in a minute; and he would take time, until the bringing up of the Report, to prepare it. At present, he would not oppose the insertion of the words in the hon. Member's (Mr. Aglionby's) Amendment.
Mr. Lawsonwished to express his opinion in favour of the Amendment. Foot passengers had just as much right to protection as any other class of passengers. He had seen, on the London and Birmingham Railway, great inconvenience arise from the want of sufficient accommodation for foot passengers. At Harrow, they had to go down steps on the one side, and ascend on the other; and this he thought was extremely injurious to the public safety. He would refer these matters, in the first instance, to two Justices on the spot, and then let them be referred, as other cases were, to Quarter Sessions. At the same time, he wished to give every facility to railways. He was not one of those who wished to offer any vexatious impediments to those great projects; but still he must say the suggestion of the hon. Member for Cockermouth met with his entire approbation.
Clause agreed to.
Lord G. Somersetsaid, he would consider what alterations would be required, and then frame a special clause to meet them as well as the views of the hon. Member. This special clause he should submit to the Board of Trade, and if it

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were approved of by that body, he would propose it either in the Committee, or on the bringing up of the Report.
Clause 33, providing—
"That wherever a railway crossed any turnpike road or public carriage road on a level, the company should erect sufficient gates across such road on each side of the railway, and should employ proper persons to open and shut such gates, who in cases of neglect should be subject to a penalty of 40s."
Colonel Sibthorpobjected to the paragraph in the clause which imposed a penalty of 40 s. upon officers who neglected to close those gates which were entrusted to them, because he thought it was not sufficiently heavy. Such a course had been adopted by the House, some few years ago, in the case of what are called "public conveniences," but what he thought were "public nuisances." He meant omnibuses. More impudent fellows than those who drove these vehicles could hardly be met with, and when the penalty imposed upon them was only 40 s., the evil was never abated. When, however, imprisonment was substituted for fine, accidents through the negligence of those fellows became less frequent; and he should like to see the same principle applied in the case of railways.
Mr. Aglionbysaid, another paragraph in this clause went in direct violation of his views. The part to which he alluded made it compulsory for railway companies to build stiles, but said nothing about gates, or men to mind them. Now he wished to establish this principle—that the foot passenger should be protected in the same way as the carriage passenger—namely, by putting up gates; and where it was thought necessary, placing officers to mind them. Were there not hundreds of cases where human life was endangered by the absence of these precautions? Was there to be no gate or other protection at both ends of a footway, which might pass through a populous town, and be crossed by railway? On such footways, men and women, and children were continually passing, and it was no use to say that the publication of the starting and arriving times of the trains was sufficient warning. Therefore, he would say, have a general clause requiring the erection of gates in all cases, and officers where necessary, and then leave to the local justices the detail. He begged to move as in the preceding clause, the insertion
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of the words "highways" for "carriage ways."
Lord G. Somersetconceived that if the hon. Member's suggestion should be agreed to, it would have the effect of annihilating railways altogether; at least, if a line of any length was to be made, it would be rendered almost useless if it were to be crossed by four or five hundred gates, and men at each, and all to be kept up at the expense of the company. If the hon. Member's Amendment were inserted, it would be found to be so mischievous, that it would be rendered nugatory by the number of exceptions that would be introduced. He conceived that giving the power proposed by the hon. Member to local Justices, more real harm than good would be done the public. On the whole he did hope that the House would not agree to this proposition, and if it should divide upon it he would resist it, for he conceived it would be an ill-advised course to adopt.
Mr. Aglionbythought it would be better for the House to admit that it was ill-advised, than that it had been inconsistent. If stiles were to be made, he would ask why not gates also? And, surely, if local Justices were to be deemed competent to decide as to where bridges were and were not necessary, they were equally competent to form a judgment as to the necessity for a gate? On the whole, he was so strongly impressed with the justice and fairness of his proposition, that he would divide the House upon it, for he conceived he would stultify himself by not doing so.
Mr. Cardwelldid not hesitate to say that if the words were inserted which the hon. Member for Cockermouth wanted, they would have the effect of preventing the Committee from making any alteration whatever. The parties who were to be protected were not the railway parties, but the public. It was not reasonable, in securing the interests of the public, that they should require that 300 or 400 gates, and 300 or 400 gatekeepers should be appointed, when, perhaps, their services would not be required oftener than once or twice in the twenty-four hours. Doing so would be highly expensive to the company, while there would be no adequate benefit to the public; and he, therefore, hoped that the House would negative the proposition of the hon. Member for Cockermouth.
Mr. Hayteragreed that if these words were inserted, the Committee would be deprived of the power of making any alteration. He believed that railways were of great advantage to the public; and he should, therefore, protest against the insinuations which had been thrown out against those Members who came down there to render assistance in maturing these projects. Gentlemen connected with the landed interests conceived that all these projects were detrimental to them, and they entertained a jealousy of all those who supported these projects, and thought that their object was some private end, and not the public good. He did not feel that he was actuated by any private end, and he should, therefore, persevere in his course. His object was to do justice, and that should be done to both parties. What was the case? If these gates were erected, two gatekeepers would be required for every single footpath, and thus the company would incur an expense of 100 l. a year for every one of them; and if there were 300 or 400, the expense would be enormous. In the case of bridle-paths, he admitted that some regulation was necessary, and a clause might be introduced for erecting a proper tribunal for directing the placing of gates; but in the case of footpaths on level ground, he thought they were unnecessary.
Mr. Wodehouseprotested against the supposition that the landed interest entertained any jealousy of those who supported railways, or of railways themselves. He had lived, during the construction of the Norwich and Yarmouth Railway, very near to it, and he had never sustained the slightest inconvenience from it; and such had been the case with a noble Friend in his neighbourhood. In the case of a special train, the adoption of the suggestion of the hon. Member would cause great inconvenience. In one instance, a physician's attendance was required at Yarmouth; a special train was taken, and in consequence of there being no impediment, he performed the distance between Norwich and Yarmouth in a quarter of an hour, which would otherwise have taken him nearly two hours. With respect to the jealousy supposed to be entertained by landowners of railway projects, he would beg to assure the hon. Member for Wells, that he never was more thoroughly mistaken than in that supposition.
Mr. Tatton Egertonthought, in the cases of public roads and highways, these gates were necessary; but that in the cases of footpaths, it would be a needless expense and trouble to the companies.
Mr. Entwislesaid, the hon. Member for Cockermouth would find that the exceptions to the rule which he sought to establish, would be so numerous as to increase the business before Private Committees, rather than decrease it; and he, therefore, conceived that the adoption of the words proposed would be the very means of defeating the hon. Member's own object. If the expense were increased to the companies, the public in the end would have to pay it.
Colonel Sibthorptrusted that the hon. and learned Gentleman would divide the Committee, and he (Colonel Sibthorp) should certainly divide with him. They might talk about expense to the railway companies; but he would wish them to look at the interest of thousands of the public that had been already destroyed. He was exceedingly jealous of the power given to railroads; and he should strongly oppose this clause.
Dr. Bowringwas quite sure, that the provisions in the Amendment, if agreed to, would only be rendered necessary in a very few cases. The exceptions would certainly much preponderate; for not in one case out of twenty would it be necessary to erect gates and appoint gatekeepers on crossing a footpath.
Mr. Aglionbysaid, that there appeared to have been an entire misconception of his arguments and intentions. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Wells (Mr. Hayter) had led the House to believe that if the Amendment were agreed to, there would be an end to all railways; and that the Committee on each Private Bill would be entirely precluded from entering into the merits of the various Bills—technically it would be so at present; but he (Mr. Aglionby) had intended, if his Amendment had been carried, to have proposed the insertion in the clause of the words, — "except where otherwise provided by the Special Act." That would assimilate this clause with the preceding one, and would leave the subject perfectly open to the Private Committees. If it would give the Committees additional trouble, he would remind hon. Gentlemen that the public safety ought to be their first consideration; expense, at

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any rate, ought to be only a secondary object.
Lord G. Somersetmust still oppose the Amendment. The whole object of the clause under discussion was to secure the safety of the public; and in order to that end by leaving out the words last mentioned by the hon. and learned Gentleman, it was rendered absolutely necessary that there should be no deviation from the principle laid down in the clause. If the Amendment were agreed to, be could not see that the public would have so much protection as they had at present. The clause under discussion related only to public carriage roads, and to turnpike roads; and whenever they were crossed, it was not denied that ample security was afforded to the public. The 44th Clause related to the crossing of footpaths; and he should think that the hon. and learned Gentleman's Amendment would have come in better there than here. Wherever there was a private right of way which was necessary to be protected, the Private Committee might interfere; and he should have no objection to the introduction of such a clause in the Private Bills.
Mr. Aglionbythought that that would answer his purpose.
Amendment withdrawn.
Clause agreed to; as were the clauses to 43 inclusive.
House resumed; Committee to sit again.
House adjourned to five o'clock, and then resumed.

MUSEUMS OF ART.
Mr. Ewartrose for the purpose of moving for leave to bring in a Bill to enable town-councils to establish Museums of Art in corporate towns. The merit of the measure was almost entirely due to the hon. Member for Taunton, who had acted with him on the Committee which sat upon the subject. That Committee recommended the establishment of Schools of Design, and, first of all, it recommended the establishment of a central school in the metropolis. It also recommended the establishment of Schools in the various manufacturing towns in connexion with the central school. Only one thing was wanted now; and that was, that the central school should be devoted rather to the purposes of a normal school for making masters, than for the purpose of elementary education in art. That was the original design of the school, as his right hon. Friend the
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Member for Oxford, to whom the country was greatly indebted for his exertions with regard to this subject, would well remember. But that design had not been fully carried out. As yet the central school in London was not a normal school of art; but he trusted that they were making advances towards that more perfect system which existed in foreign countries. Another recommendation of the Committee was, that exhibitions or galleries of art should be established in the various manufacturing and other large towns of the country. It was not intended that those exhibitions should be limited to the temporary purposes of mere ephemeral exhibitions. The Committee were anxious that those museums should contain specimens of antique art, of mediaeval art, and of modern art. That recommendation had not been carried into effect, and it was to remedy this omission that the present Bill was proposed. The Committee had hoped that the Government would have assisted, at least by lending its co-operation to those who were willing to form these provincial museums, by obtaining perfect casts of the best specimens of antique and modern works, and distributing them to the various manufacturing towns, to be deposited in their museums. In London such a gallery had been established, but it was by no means perfect. He understood it would be necessary to procure for that gallery new casts of the various works of antiquity. But the object of the present measure was to diffuse these various specimens of art throughout the country; to send them to the museums of Manchester, of Glasgow, of Birmingham, of Coventry, and of all the large manufacturing towns. He asked them to pass this Bill, in order to enable the town-councils to defray the expenses necessary for these museums by the imposition of a small borough rate, so as to admit the population upon the easiest possible terms. Many persons were ready to aid in the formation of these museums, either by the subscription of money, or by presenting them with works of art. It was to encourage these exertions that he ventured to propose the present measure to Parliament. There were peculiar circumstances at the present time which allowed a facility for the diffusion of works throughout the country which had never been enjoyed in times past. By means of their railways they could send casts of improved

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specimens of works of art to the different manufacturing towns; and it would be the fault of the Government if there was a single manufacturing or large town in the country deficient of a museum of such a character as might give a sound taste in art to the population of that town; and thus enable them to apply the skill they would obtain in the arts to manufactures. He trusted, therefore, that they should see before long the system of schools of design perfected throughout the country, and that the central school in the metropolis would become what the Committee recommended it should be. It was well known that, until the Romans had such an abundance of statues in Rome, that the mind of the people was improved through the eye, they never became aware of the value of the arts; and it was the same with the people of this country. It had been said that England would not make any great advance in the arts, because it was a commercial nation; but he believed, if they adopted the recommendation of the Committee, that, like Venice, the large manufacturing towns of this country would be quite capable of appreciating the value of the fine arts: with this view he called on the Government to assist in promoting this object, and to wipe away the stain that hung upon the artistic reputation of the country. It was indeed a stigma, and he (Mr. Ewart) thought that, in reference to such a reproach, he might employ the words of the poet—
"Non obtusa adeò gestamus pectora Pœni:
Nee tam aversus equos Tyriâ Sol jungit ab urbe;"
He had now shortly stated the principles of the subject he intended to bring before the House. He did not think it necessary further to dilate upon it, but would conclude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to enable town-councils to establish Museums of Art in corporate towns.
Mr. Wyseadverted to purposes he had in view when originally advocating the formation of a School of Design in London. He complained that the Government of the day had unfortunately limited itself to that sole object, which for some time continued a merely elementary establishment. Every day more strongly proved the necessity of corresponding institutions in the provinces. Hitherto provincial schools had met with difficulties from want of sufficient contributions; and the
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Bill of his hon. Friend was intended as far as possible to overcome this obstruction to the final attainment of the object. The managers of the School of Design had not been able, from their limited funds, to do as much as they wished to do; and they thought it might be necessary to call upon the public for contributions; but those who were not acquainted with the fact had no idea of the number of contingencies to which voluntary contributions were liable, and how difficult it was to guarantee the existence of institutions which depended on voluntary support. There were institutions to which individuals were willing to contribute works of art, valuable books, or specimens of natural history; but from the circumstance of there being no building in the locality capable of holding them, those who would have so contributed were obliged to retain, on their own premises, those articles which they would otherwise have given to the public, and thus an impediment was created to the advance of the fine arts in this country. He was anxious with his hon. Friend to provide a remedy for this evil, and he had some years ago introduced a Bill for a similar purpose. In every country in the world, wherever municipal institutions existed, the power sought to be obtained by the Bill which was proposed by his hon. Friend existed, as well as the power of imposing taxation for the physical wants of the community. It was merely a power which enabled the town-councils to act—which invested them with authority—in case the inhabitants were not disposed, by voluntary contributions to adopt the necessary means for the erection of museums, and other similar institutions for the advancement of knowledge and the promotion of art. He had from time to time had communications with scientific and mechanics' institutions, both in this country and in Ireland; and he had found that in all cases they would willingly accept such a boon as that proposed by the Bill of his hon. Friend. He did not expect any opposition to the introduction of this Bill, and he would defer any further remarks upon the subject to a future stage. He would second, with great pleasure, the Motion of his hon. Friend.
Sir W. Jamesthought the object which the hon. Member for Dumfries had in view was worthy of the highest praise and the cordial support of all parties in the House. He had visited a mechanics' institution

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amongst his constituents at Hull, and had been surprised at the taste which the members had exhibited for works of art His hon. Colleague (Sir J. Hanmer) had presented the institution to which he had alluded with a large collection of classical casts, and their value was fully appreciated. With respect to corporations, as remodelled by the Municipal Reform Bill, he was glad to see that they were becoming anxious to possess collections of works of art. But he remembered that when they were first reformed, most valuable works of art, some of them the pictures of Sir Joshua Reynolds, and others of high eminence, which had been presented to the old corporations, and also antique plate, which had been, in some instances, in possession of the old corporations since the time of Elizabeth, were disgracefully brought to the hammer, and sold by auction. He was happy to see symptoms of a better taste, and, if the improvement went on, perhaps the reformed corporations would send their children to classical schools, where they would become acquainted with the old verse—
"Ingenuas didicisse fideliter artes
Emollit moves, nee sinit esse feros,"
And perhaps in course of time they would recover the reputation for hospitality of which the old corporations ought to have been proud. He thought the country was much indebted to the hon. Member for Dumfries for the trouble he had taken on this subject.
Mr. M. Philipssaid, the hon. Member seemed to think that some of the town councillors would have no objection to sell their ancestors. As the borough with which he (Mr. Philips) stood connected never had any property, it was not in their power to sell it. He was one of those who advocated everything calculated to promote the taste of the operative classes of the community. After all it should be recollected that it was to them the country was indebted for the carrying out of every design. The great master mind must be called into exercise to produce the design, but it was the operative who carried these designs into execution. It was, therefore, of vast importance that a taste for the fine arts should be developed among the manufacturing community. He thought it was of the utmost importance that a taste for literature and the arts should be encouraged in the rising generation; and
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that some such proposition as that which had been made by his hon. Friend should be adopted by the House. He hoped, however, that his hon. Friend would give sufficient time for the discussion of the merits of this Bill in the country, to prevent any hasty expression of opinion upon that which was intrinsically good in itself. He hoped, too, that, when the Bill would be carried into operation in large towns, the museums would be opened at such hours and under such regulations as would be advantageous to the working classes. The great drawback on the improvement of the operative classes was, that there was no public institution in existence which they could call their own. They enjoyed no such advantages as operatives on the Continent. Those institutions which were open to the public, the British Museum for example, were open during such hours that the operatives could not take advantage of them. He had great pleasure in supporting the Motion for the introduction of the Bill.
Mr. Humesaid, there could be no doubt of the importance of the subject; but he hoped that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman would be enlarged, so that power might be given to town-councils, not only to provide museums fit and proper for the purpose, but also playgrounds and public walks for the recreation of the populace. He was glad to find that the efforts which of late years had been made to promote a taste for the fine arts among the people of this country had proved more successful than many persons in that House and out of it had expected. He believed, that as compared with the French, German, and Italian people, the English had embraced and profited by every opportunity afforded them, as far as it was possible for them, of visiting and inspecting works of art; nay, that they had even gone beyond other nations in doing so. At the same time it ought to be observed, to their credit, that they had shown themselves most careful not to injure any of the valuable exhibitions submitted to their view. Should his hon. Friend succeed in getting his Bill introduced, of which he had no doubt, he hoped it would be made to embrace those other objects. In some towns museums were already established, and the town-councils should be empowered to apply any means they might have to the formation of public walks and

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playgrounds; and the Government could not do better than encourage those things, and thus give the labouring classes employment and occupation, so that they might spend both their time and money in a proper manner. The result of similar experiments in London was, that the people had deserted the public houses, preferring to visit places where they could improve their minds, and refresh and strengthen their bodies. He trusted that Her Majesty's Government would pay due attention to this subject; it would reflect great honour upon them. He cordially supported the Motion for bringing in the Bill.
Mr. Bernalsaid, the manner in which the hon. Member for Dumfries had brought forward the subject did him great credit; but he trusted the hon. Member would not dovetail his plan, but confine himself to one proposition. He thought it was highly gratifying to notice the admirable way in which the people conducted themselves on these occasions; and that, so far as they could learn, the one or two outrages which had been committed in public museums were not perpetrated by any of the labouring classes of the country. No operative, that he was aware of, had been convicted of an offence of this nature; but he believed the outrages which had been committed were perpetrated by persons moving in a superior walk of life. This was the only capital in Europe, he believed, that was without a Museum of Art; and when they saw what was done in a neighbouring country, and the impulse that had been given to a love of the Fine Arts by the King of the French, he thought that they should stir themselves to form a Museum of Art and Antiquities in this metropolis which would be worthy of the English nation. Many of the works of art of the middle ages were going to decay. They all knew the money, the taste, and the activity that were bestowed by the King of the French in the encouragement of the formation of a Museum of Antiquities. Notwithstanding what he had stated that evening of the works of art of the Middle Ages going to decay, still there existed sufficient materials in the country to form a collection of this kind. It was the opinion of all men interested in works of art in this country, that there should be a collection formed of the kind which he alluded to. There existed in the country sufficient
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materials to form a collection that would be worthy of the country. He would take the opportunity of urging upon the right hon. Baronet opposite the expediency of his bestowing his attention on this subject. The right hon. Baronet was one of the trustees of the British Museum, and the subject was in every way worthy of consideration.
Sir R. Peelsaid: I perfectly well remember the observations which the hon. Member made upon this subject on a former occasion, and I trust that I may say that the matter has not escaped my attention and the attention of the other trustees of the British Museum. We have, of course, received many other suggestions, and it is absolutely necessary that some selection should be made out of the many objects which are worthy of public favour; and however much each of those objects may be worthy of support, of course we can only select those that we conceive of the greatest importance. Now, we have during the recess applied ourselves to the improvement of the Geological Museum, which promises to become of considerable importance; and we hope that we will, during the present Session, obtain the consent of the House to our carrying into effect some arrangement for the purpose of affording the public access to this improved Geological Museum. I agree with the hon. Gentleman in the advantage which the cultivation of the arts is likely to receive from the establishment of these exhibitions; but, at the same time, I advise the House that it is important that they should exercise caution as to how they confer too extensive powers of taxation upon town-councils, for the purpose of establishing these museums. The hon. Member for Dumfries proposes to confer considerable powers of taxation upon town-councils, for the purpose of encouraging the formation of collections of works of art. The hon. Member for Montrose, actuated, no doubt, by the most benevolent purposes, suggests that a portion of this taxation should be applied to the formation of places of recreation for the working classes, and for other desirable objects. But it is necessary to consider what an amount of local taxation this might lead to. Besides, it will be necessary for us, during the present Session, to call upon the House to confer powers of local taxation for the purposes of ventilation, and

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improving the salubrity of the dwellings of the population. What I would advise is, not to increase to too great an extent the demand on the inhabitants of towns for the purposes of these local improvements. We ought to take care not to raise a prejudice against them by increasing too much the burdens of local taxation. I believe that there would be found a great disposition amongst those who owe their prosperity to manufactures, to remember the obligations which they owe to that branch of the national industry, and to contribute to the formation of those museums. I hope that the hon. Member will not check this disposition by giving too considerable powers of taxation for those purposes. At least, I think that it would be the most advisable course to endeavour in the first instance to raise as much as possible by private subscription. If the town-councils were to tax the inhabitants of the locality for the purpose of carrying into effect the building arrangements, they must in many cases throw the money away. What the town-council should do, therefore, would be to call upon the public for subscriptions to establish the museum, and to say when it was established they would provide, by local taxation, for its continuance. Such a plan would insure the permanency of the museum, and afford a guarantee and an encouragement to the rich and liberal to come forward in order to establish the museum. The same experiment had been tried successfully in respect to the endowment of new churches. Many persons contributed funds for the purpose of raising the sacred edifices when they received an assurance that means would be found for their permanent maintenance. In the same way the town-councils should endeavour to provide by subscriptions for the erection of those buildings, and provide for their permanent maintenance by local taxation. I think, especially at periods when trade and manufactures are in a flourishing state, that there will be many persons willing to make presents for the purpose of carrying into effect those valuable objects. I hope, on these grounds, that the hon. Member will see how desirable it is that these town-councils should not have too large powers of taxation, but that they should endeavour to carry the proposed objects into effect partly by subscriptions.
Lord J. Mannerssaid, when he recollected
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the constitution of town-councils, and their annual elections, he did not think that they would be likely to take any very unpopular course. He approved of the suggestions of the hon. Member for Montrose, and thought it desirable that there should be places provided for the recreation of the people. He would very much wish that the Government could be induced to undertake the proposition, and bring in a Bill for that purpose, and he was sure that every Member in that House would support it. He believed that the people were very grateful for any opportunity given them of visiting public exhibitions, and their conduct in every respect proved it. He was very desirous to see the working classes afforded the fullest opportunity of recreation in the enjoyment of manly and athletic sports; and he believed that every medical authority on the subject concurred in the advantage that was derived from those amusements. He hoped that the time would soon come when in every large town, as well as agricultural districts, means would be taken to afford to the people the opportunity of manly and healthy amusement and recreation. He wished to take this opportunity of adding his testimony to the decorous conduct of the people on every occasion when they were admitted to witness objects of art and curiosity. He was in the habit of living in a large house, in which there was a collection of works of art. He had seen as many as a hundred persons at a time pass through those galleries. He had never seen any injury or mischief attempted, and nothing could on all occasions have been more cheering than the conduct of the people. He was desirous to give his hearty support to the Motion, and he felt convinced that the more facilities that were given to the people in the large towns, and throughout the country, to observe works of art, the more would be done to work out the true civilisation of the country. Before he sat down he wished to thank the Government for the pains they had lately bestowed on this subject. He alluded especially to the works proceeding at Elgin and Glasgow.
Mr. Brothertondefended the national character of the people of this country from the imputation that they were not able properly to appreciate works of art, and urged that the experiments made had shown that they both possessed

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and could acquire a taste for them. He was of opinion, that however useful schools of design were, they were not, in themselves, enough; museums of art should also be established. By a calculation he had made with regard to a large town with which he was connected, it appeared that a tax of one halfpenny in the pound would be sufficient to raise a building which should cost 50,000 l. The only object of this Bill would be to enable the town-council to erect a proper building; and then it must be left to the voluntary contributions of the people to provide models, statues, machines, and other works of art. In the town of Manchester upwards of 33,000 l. had been already contributed, and the right hon. Baronet himself had subscribed 1,000 l. for the establishment of public parks in that neighbourhood. It was much better to cultivate a taste for the arts at the public expense than to raise a large amount of taxation for the prevention and punishment of crime. In Manchester and Salford it cost 40,000 l. a-year for the support of the police and for other arrangements to check crime and bring criminals to justice. The establishment of institutions of the kind proposed, would withdraw the people from places and habits of dissipation. He was in favour of leaving these proposed museums in charge of the town-councils, they being corporations, and therefore perpetual, not, like trustees, liable to change; the public, therefore, would have more confidence in them.
Mr. M. Gorehad listened with pleasure to this debate, because it was on a subject of great importance, involving the well-being or the community. It was a wise and sound policy to promote such objects as those which had been suggested; they were calculated to improve the social system, and to render the artisan and the labourer sober and industrious, cheerful and intellectual. With regard to a geological museum, nothing could be productive of more public advantage. The conduct of the people had been noble when advantages of this kind had been offered to them; and this step would tend not only to raise science to a loftier eminence, but at the same time, while improving the morals and purifying the spirits of the people, to extend the basis on which rested the foundation of peace, security and national prosperity.
Mr. Hutt, after observing that a misapprehension
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had gone abroad with respect to the Corporation of Hull, who had not (as was supposed) disposed of any works of art, proceeded to observe, that in the instance of the School of Design at Newcastle nothing could be said to have more completely succeeded. Many hon. Members, perhaps, had seen some of the beautiful works in stained glass produced in that town, chiefly by the pupils in Mr. Wade's establishment. Let the Englishman have an opportunity of disciplining his mind in any art, and he would be found in no respect behind any competitor; indeed, in works of pure art, English productions were, perhaps, at the head of those of Europe. In the school established by Mr. Wedgwood many years ago, articles were produced which were the admiration of every capital in Europe. Articles, also, in steel and bronze had been produced at the establishment of Messrs. Smith, in Sheffield, which were admired by every one who had any taste for the art, from whatever part of Europe he might come. No object ought to be more precious in the estimation of the House than to withdraw the labourer from gross and sensual pursuits, and give him some relish for more refined intellectual enjoyment.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, there had been so little difference of opinion among hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House who had spoken upon the subject of the proposed Bill, and his own views so much coincided with those that had been put forward by others, that he felt it would be inexcusable in him to detain the House for more than a single moment. But having taken a warm interest in the success of the School of Design, which had been established by his lamented Friend the late Lord Sydenham, who, he should be permitted to add, had conferred a lasting benefit upon the country by its foundation; he felt that the present subject was one which he could not allow to pass altogether in silence. He wished to observe that he considered the measure proposed by his hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries one of the utmost possible importance; and he thought it would be materially promoted by the institution to which he had just alluded, and which was calculated to supply the country with well-trained teachers in the arts. He quite agreed with his hon. Friend that it was most important the inhabitants of the

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principal manufacturing towns should have an opportunity of seeing models of works of art of the highest class, for without them all attempts at imparting a correct taste must fail. Another argument in support of the feasibility of the Motion could be derived from the fact that all the very best models, consisting of casts from antique statues and vases, happened to be supplied at extremely cheap rates. An instance of the value of having easy access to such models was afforded in the case of Chantry. That great artist, who, it was well known, had sprung from the lower ranks of society, frequently complained of the inconvenience which he had found in early life from the want of any opportunity of educating his eye by the inspection of superior models; and the advantage to the youth of the country of having models of the great works of the ancient masters constantly before them might, therefore, be easily appreciated. No Englishman could travel on the Continent without being struck by the circumstance of finding in every considerable town that he came to a museum, in which the inhabitants took pride, and in which any object of antiquity, which might exist near the locality, was almost sure to be preserved. The consequence of having such an institution in a place was, that if any of the inhabitants happened to prosper in the world, and to become possessed of some valuable work of art, he almost invariably bequeathed it to the museum of the town in which he and his ancestors resided, and where he expected that his children would continue to live after his death. He trusted that the proposed museums of art would not be confined to the great manufacturing towns, but that they would spread through all the more considerable county towns in the kingdom. He, for one, did not, he should confess, dread, that if a power of taxation for such purposes were given to town-councils, they would spend the money of their constituents in any very wanton manner. He believed that municipal corporations, like all other bodies having the expenditure of the public money, required to be very closely watched, or else that they would be found to spend it extravagantly; but the subject then before the House was not one in which he dreaded that any such wasteful expenditure would take place. The filling of such museums would, even in a commercial point of view, not be
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found to be a wasteful employment of money, as the contents would at any time be found to repay the cost of their purchase. When they recollected the advantages which France had derived from the admirable schools of design existing at Lyons and other large towns, and which dated as far back as the days of Colbert, there could be no second opinion entertained of the extreme importance to a great manufacturing country like England of encouraging similar institutions. He trusted, therefore, that the subject would be carried out in a proper spirit, and he felt great pleasure in giving his support to the Motion of his hon. Friend.
Mr. Sheilwished to call the attention of the hon. Gentleman to the propriety of introducing in his Bill a provision for having the proposed institutions open on Sundays. It was quite manifest that a very large portion of the population of the country could not avail themselves of the advantages which such institutions would hold out to them except on Sundays, and the only objection which he anticipated could be urged against his suggestion was, that there would be many persons employed in the care of the establishments who would require a day of rest as well as the rest of the community; but that might be given them on any other day of the week. Unless that arrangement were adopted, he did not think the measure would produce half the benefit which it might be made to confer.
Motion then agreed to.

PRACTICE IN COURTS OF LAW.
Mr. Ewartsaid he had given notice of another Motion, which he would beg leave slightly to modify in offering for the consideration of the House. It was for a Bill to enable the defendant's counsel in civil, and the prisoner's counsel in criminal cases, to address the jury on the close of the evidence for the prisoner or defendant. If it would be more in accordance with the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (the Attorney General), he would alter his Motion so as not to move for leave to bring in a Bill, but simply to draw the attention of the House to the subject. He would not have brought the matter forward in its present form, were it not that having had opportunities of communicating on the subject with some of the most eminent lawyers in the kingdom—not only counsel but solicitors — and

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having heard their opinions on the evil consequences of the present system, he had been induced to press it at once before the House. The mode of proceeding in their courts of law was well known. The plaintiff's counsel opened the case and produced his evidence. The defendant's counsel had then a choice of either calling evidence, after addressing the jury in the first place, and then giving the right to reply to the plaintiff's counsel, or else of simply making his appeal to the jury without producing witnesses, and thus preventing the plaintiff's counsel from speaking a second time. The injustice which was thus done the defendant, in foregoing the right of calling witnesses whenever their evidence was not absolutely necessary for his case, was very great, but it was still more grievous in criminal cases. It constantly happened that rather than subject themselves to the injury which their case might sustain by a reply on the part of the plaintiff's counsel, the counsel for the defendant or prisoner suppressed evidence which they would otherwise be most anxious to produce; and he would maintain that there could be no evil in the practice of the law in this country greater than the suppression of evidence. But there was another grievance also. The defendant's counsel, in his statement, laid an outline of his case before the jury, and then called his witnesses. Those witnesses might establish his case, though not in precisely the form in which he had sketched it out, and he had then no means of redressing the error which had been committed, or of reconciling the apparent inconsistency. But it was not so with the plaintiff's counsel. Any variance between the plaintiff's evidence and the opening statement of counsel could be explained away in the speech in reply, and thus there was not an equal balance between the parties. Another reason for altering the present system was, that there was a variance in the practice of different courts. In the Nisi Prius Courts and the Courts of Assize the practice was such as he had described it; but in the Sessions' Courts it was not so. In them the practice was to allow the defendant's counsel the right to reply; and before Parliamentary Committees the answering counsel had also a power of summing up, which was not granted to him in the courts of law. When the matter had been formerly before the House, they corrected this evil in opposition
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to the Attorney General of the day, and provided that the last word should be given to the prisoner, and the Bill went in that form to the House of Lords, when it was altered, and two speeches again given to the plaintiff's counsel. Another reason which he might urge in support of his Motion was, that the unequal system of which he complained did not exist in any of the courts on the Continent. Believing, therefore, that the system was unjust—that it was not only unjust but anomalous—as it was not universally adopted in this country—and that it was unknown upon the Continent, he thought he had made out a case at least for an inquiry, though he would not for the present apply to bring in a Bill on the subject. He begged leave to move,
"That it is expedient that inquiry be made whether the defendant's counsel in civil, and the prisoner's counsel in criminal cases, should be allowed to address the jury on the close of the evidence for the prisoner or defendant."
The Attorney Generalsaid, if his hon. Friend had pressed his Motion as it appeared on the paper, he would certainly not, with the limited time which he had to consider the subject, have been prepared to assent to the bringing in of a Bill containing so important an alteration in the administration both of civil and criminal justice in this country. He was not, however, prepared to say, that it was not a case deserving consideration. No one could have practised long as an advocate, and not have felt, at times, the great disadvantage under which the counsel for a defendant laboured, in not being able to address the jury after the evidence was given. The speech of the defendant's counsel was necessarily made before the witnesses were examined; and his case, therefore, very frequently could not be presented with the same force and clearness as it might be after the witnesses were heard—and his counsel had not the opportunity of explaining any apparent discrepancy between the evidence of the witnesses and the opening statement; but while he felt these disadvantages of the present system, it was not easy to suggest an alteration that might not be productive of perhaps greater evil than that which they wished to remove. His hon. Friend had confined himself to the case of the defendant; but he seemed to forget that if the alterations which he proposed were adopted, the plaintiff would be in the position from which, the defendant was relieved. If the

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defendant called no witness at present, the plaintiff could have no right to reply; and he would therefore have no opportunity of speaking after the witnesses were examined. The only fair course would seem to be, that the plaintiff should open his case and again speak after the evidence; and that the defendant should do the same, and the plaintiff reply. He admitted the practice at the Quarter Sessions' Courts and before the Committees of the House of Commons to be what the hon. Gentleman had stated. The practices in these instances would be for the plaintiff to open his case, and when his case had closed, then the counsel for the plaintiff addressed the jury. The defendant's counsel then stated his case, and if he called witnesses, the counsel for the defence again addressed the jury, and the plaintiff's counsel had a right to reply. There would thus be live speeches in every case in which the defendant went into evidence. That was the practice which formerly existed in the Courts in Westminster Hall; but he believed the inconvenience arising from it was found to be so great, that an alteration into the present system was introduced. Though the practice for which his hon. Friend contended, existed in Committees of that House, he believed his hon. Friend had been himself a Member of a Committee by which it was recommended that a different system should be introduced. That Committee recommended that counsel for the Bill should be first heard; that after he had closed his case, counsel against the Bill should be heard; and that if he then called witnesses, the counsel for the Bill should have a right to reply; but there should be only three speeches allowed. He felt the force of the difficulties which presented themselves to his hon. Friend; but still he could not say that he ever knew, in all his experience, the present system to be in the slightest degree detrimental to the ends of public justice. He believed that inconvenience might be caused under it in particular instances; but he did not think that its operation was generally injurious. If the proposition of his Friend were adopted, it was clear that the same indulgence should be extended to the prosecutor in criminal cases; and that at the close of his evidence the counsel for the prosecution should have a right to address the jury upon it. As his hon. Friend did not persist in his intention of applying for leave to bring in a Bill on the subject, he would not enter further
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upon it, but would take the liberty of suggesting that the question might be referred to the Commissioners who were now employed in considering the criminal law of the land. He believed the names of those individuals were a sufficient guarantee to the Mouse that the subject would be properly dealt with by them, as there could be no Gentlemen found who were more experienced or more likely to come to a sound and practical decision. The reason he suggested the reference of the subject to them was, that they would be sure not only to report on any alteration that they should think advisable to have made in the system now in operation; but they would also enter into the details of the alteration, which it was very important should be known to the House before any ulterior steps were taken. It would be also desirable that the House should be put in possession of the opinions of those most able and practical men on such a subject. He begged, therefore, to throw out the suggestion to his hon. Friend; and he was sure, if the Motion were withdrawn, that the Government would be found willing to give its aid in bringing the question in a proper shape before the Commissioners.
Mr. Ewartsaid, his object was merely to draw the attention of the House to the subject. Sic was perfectly satisfied with what had fallen from his right hon. Friend, and he would beg leave, therefore, to withdraw his Motion.
Motion withdrawn.

SALE OF THE HAFOD ESTATE.
Mr. Humesaid, in the absence of his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry (Mr. Williams), he would, if the House permitted him, bring forward the Motion of which his hon. Friend had given notice. He had come down to the House with the intention of merely seconding the Motion, as he did not think it was a subject on which any discussion should take place until the Papers were before the House. He would therefore beg leave to move for—
"Copies of all Surveys and Valuations of 7, 438 acres 36 roods of land belonging to the Crown, adjoining to the Duke of Newcastle's Hafod Estate, in Cardiganshire, which has been sold to his Grace by private contract for 1,049 l. 15 s. 9d. by Her Majesty's Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, as stated in Appendix, No. 2(A), in the said Commissioners' Report for 1844."
The Earl of Lincolnsaid, he had great ground to complain of the hon. Member for Coventry for the course which he had felt it to be consistent with his duty to take upon that occasion, in having absented himself from the House when he should have brought forward the Motion which had been just made by the hon. Member for Montrose—a Motion which, in his estimation, not only did imply, but was evidently meant to imply, a case of grave corruption against, him in his official capacity. The hon. Member, however, after having placed that Notice upon the Books, sought to deprive him, as far as it lay in his power to do so, of the opportunity of hearing the charges that were brought against him, and of refuting them in his place in Parliament. That opportunity was, however, now afforded him, through the means of the hon. Member for Montrose, to whom he begged to tender his best thanks for having placed himself in the position of the hon. Member for Coventry, and for having brought forward, unsolicited by that hon. Member, the charges which he had himself shrunk from sustaining. Were it not for the kindness of the hon. Member for Montrose, he should have been deprived of the opportunity of answering those charges—an opportunity of which he was most anxious to avail himself. Before entering into the case, he wished again to express his conviction that a more unfair or a more improper course than that taken by the hon. Member for Coventry could not possibly be conceived; for not only was the character of a public servant valuable to himself, individually, but it was also of importance to the public at large, who were interested in his integrity; and, therefore, when an insinuation such as that contained in the Resolution before the House was either made, or, as in the present case, implied, it was most necessary that the very earliest opportunity should be afforded to the party affected by it of offering any explanation in his power to make. He did not complain of the hon. Member for Coventry for having put that Notice on the Books; but he complained of him for not bringing it forward. He knew in his own conscience that he had executed his public duty, not only in that, but in every other instance, so as to leave him perfectly free from any imputation such as that which the Notice of the hon. Member sought to cast upon him. He did not complain that the hon. Member for Coventry should on that, as on other occasions, have cherished suspicions
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such as he entertained for all the acts of the Executive, but he did complain that that hon. Member was not there to state his suspicions to the House. Having made these preliminary remarks to the House, he would next proceed to the facts of the case. Though the hon. Member for Montrose had suggested that the Papers should be laid upon the Table before any discussion would arise upon them, he was sure the hon. Gentleman would forgive him if he did not attend to his suggestion; but if he proceeded to show that when the Papers were produced, not only he, but even the hon. Member for Coventry himself, must admit that no grounds whatever existed for the insinuations which were put forth respecting the transactions referred to. It would appear from that Notice that a contract had been entered into between him, as the head of the Board of Woods and Forests, and his father, the Duke of Newcastle. Such was not the case. The former possessor of the estate of Hafod was a Colonel Johnes. He did not know in what year that gentleman died, but during his lifetime a claim had been put forward by the Crown of certain rights over a portion of the estate, which he considered belonged to himself. There was every reason to believe that this claim of the Crown could be justified, but no arrangement had been come to; and after the death of Colonel Johnes, the estate remained in the hands of his devisees. In the year 1832, the devisees came to the determination to dispose of the property, and it was accordingly attempted to be sold several times by private contract, but without success. The devisees then determined to put up the estate to public auction; and before doing so they thought it necessary to clear up the differences respecting the rights of the Crown which had been put forward, as he had already observed, on frequent occasions during the lifetime of Colonel Johnes, as well as after his death. They accordingly made a proposal to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests of that day for the purchase of the rights of the Crown. After considerable negotiation, commencing during Colonel Johnes's lifetime, and continued by his devisees after his death, it was agreed that a survey and valuation of the lands should be made on the part of the Crown by Mr. Morgan; and a second valuation was made by Mr. Adam Murray, a gentleman well known as a most experienced valuer of land—on the part of the devisees.

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These valuations took place in 1832, in which year the contract had been entered into between the Crown and the devisees. He need not say that the Duke of Newcastle had nothing whatever to do with this contract, as his treaty for the purchase of the estate did not commence for a long time after, when he purchased the Hafod estate subject to this contract. The valuation by Mr. Morgan showed a result of 8,061 acres, valued at a sum of 1,098 l. He thought he saw some hon. Gentlemen opposite smile at the trifling value set upon so large a tract of land, but he would presently explain what the rights were, and that would explain the amount of the valuation. It should also be recollected that the valuation by the Crown was made under an Act of Parliament, which required that the valuator should be sworn as to the truth of his return, and the valuation by Mr. Morgan, which he then held in his hand, was subscribed as having been duly sworn. Mr. Adam Murray's valuation estimated the land at the same quantity, and the amount of the value of it at 652 l. These double valuations did not, however, bring the matter to a conclusion, from the circumstance that, without reference to the amount of the valuation, Col. Johnes's devisees continued to dispute the right of the Crown, as Col. Johnes had done before them. However, having in 1832 determined to put the lands up to sale by auction, they thought it better even to make a sacrifice of their rights to a certain extent, in order that all difficulty in the way of the sale might be removed. He had then in his hand the Report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, signed by Lord Duncannon and Sir Benjamin Stevenson, recommending to the Lords of the Treasury that the rights of the Crown over the 8,061 acres should be relinquished for a sum of 800 l. He had also the Order of the Treasury, signed by Lord Nugent, Mr. George Ponsonby, and Mr. Francis Baring, three of the Lords of the Treasury, and bearing date the 29th of September, 1832, authorising the sale of the lands on those terms. He wished in the next place to draw the attention of the House to the conditions of sale which were published at the time. One of these conditions, the seventh, was as follows:—
"A claim having been made by the Crown to part of the estates, as waste lands belonging to the Crown, which, in the event of an inclosure, would entitle the Crown to a portion
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of the same lands; such claim was lately compromised by the vendors, and all the alleged rights of the Crown over such waste lands have been absolutely sold and transferred to the vendors; but subject to a reservation by the Crown of the mines and minerals (if any); but which it is believed do not exist under such waste lands; and the vendors, therefore, stipulate that no objection shall be made on account of such reservation, or any alleged rights of common."
The date of this is just prior to the former Treasury warrant; but no doubt hon. Gentlemen were aware, that in such cases, after application to the Treasury, the warrant of the Treasury authorizing such arrangements was sometimes issued subsequently to the sale. The sale was advertised on the 6th of September, 1832. To render it still more clear that the Duke of Newcastle had nothing to do with this arrangement, he should state that the estate was not bought at the auction room, but some time subsequently. The estate was put up by Mr. G. Robins, but was afterwards sold by private contract. A difficulty then arose, first on the part of Col. Johnes's devisees, and subsequently on the part of the Duke of Newcastle, the purchaser, on account of there being no boundaries marked to the estate. There was some irregularity in this part of the proceeding, he was bound to admit, on the part of the Office of Woods, the contract having been entered into without any boundaries being defined, and without there being any plan of the estate whatever. Of course, their solicitors could not make out the title nor complete the sale, nor would the solicitor for the purchaser enter into any negotiations till that fault was remedied. For four years subsequently to this demand on the part of the Crown, no plan was furnished by the Office. Still, further negotiations went on, the Duke of Newcastle, as Col. Johnes had done before him, maintaining that the Crown had no title to the lands whatever, and that if he paid anything whatever to the Crown, he should be paying twice over for the estate. A plan was at length produced. It was then found that the estate was 7,438 acres, instead of 8,061, as had been stated; and, of course, the Office of Woods and Forests made such proportionate abatement in the price demanded as the purchaser was entitled to, which was 62 l., and that sum was deducted, and the price then demanded from the Duke of Newcastle was 738 l. This sum, so demanded, was paid in August, 1843. But how stood the case? As the hon. Gentleman

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would perceive from the notice given, instead of 738 l. being paid, the sum paid was 1,049 l. 15 s. 9d. That sum was made up in this way:—Although the Office of Woods and Forests was in fault with regard to not furnishing the plans, and thereby stood in the way of the completion of the purchase for four years, he (the Earl of Lincoln) had required the Duke of Newcastle, before the completion of the purchase, to pay interest on the purchase-money from the time of the contract, at the rate of 4 per cent, for ten years. He was ready to admit that he believed this in almost any case might be considered what was vulgarly called rather "sharp practice;" but finding that that had been very much the spirit in which the whole transaction had been pursued throughout the prior negotiations, he was determined, for his own satisfaction, and for the satisfaction of his father, that not the slightest deviation from the arrangement which had taken place before should be made. However, under other circumstances, and with other individuals, he might have been disposed to re-open the case, in order to make a more favourable and equitable adjustment, he told his father it was necessary, whilst he (the Earl of Lincoln) remained at the Office of Woods and Forests, that he should either complete the purchase on those terms, or not at all; and, of course, the alternative would have probably been, that the property would have been sold with a lawsuit, or the sale would have failed altogether. His father thought that he had been hardly used, but at last agreed to the conditions, because he was in the same situation as Col. Johnes's devisees had been ten years before, and was about to sell the property; and therefore he was anxious, by completing the title as fully as possible, and removing all doubts, to make it the more marketable. He not only paid 738 l. for the claim, but 311 l. 15 s. 9d. interest, being nearly one-half of the whole value of the property. An hon. Member had smiled when he mentioned this sum, and he had stated that he would mention what these Crown rights were, supposing them to exist at all. He believed that they had existed formerly; at the same time he must say, that very considerable doubt rested over the whole transaction. The Commissioners of Woods and Forests maintained that the Crown was lord of the manor, and that Col. Johnes and other freeholders had simply rights of common over this waste. If such were the case, the way in
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which Col. Johnes became the possessor of the property was this;—he was the most powerful freeholder, and he gradually drove off all the minor freeholders and kept them off the manor for a period of twenty years, and thus precluded the rights of the commoners to the land, although sixty years were required to debar the Crown's rights. If the Crown had any rights at all, they were simply rights of soil. The Crown had no power even to plant a tree or to place a goat there, as the whole of the pasture belonged to Col. Johnes, and afterwards to the Duke of Newcastle: the Crown, therefore, had only a nominal right, unless mines and minerals had existed there, and the right to minerals was not sold to the Duke of Newcastle, but was specially reserved. The Crown never did previously to this sale and never could receive a single farthing from the property; and the only right of the Crown was this, that in the event of inclosures being made (and any one who had seen that district, which he had not, would acknowledge that a more improbable event could hardly be conceived), the Crown would be entitled to one-twentieth part of the inclosure. That accounted for the smallness of the sum at which the property was estimated by the sworn valuer for the Crown, and by the valuer for the devisees, if the oath of the valuer for the Crown were not thought a sufficient guarantee. He, therefore, maintained, and every Gentleman would agree with him, that even if this had been an original transaction between the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, with himself at the head of the Board, and his noble father, a case more clear from suspicion could not be. But even that was not the case. His father had nothing to do with the contract; the contract was entered into with other parties, and his father purchased the estate subject to the contract, which the Crown had the power to enforce, as his father maintained always, most unjustly and unfairly. He thought he had clearly shown to the House that this property was worth nothing for possession, and that it was simply worth something for sale, in order to establish a complete title where a doubt existed. The whole sum received, therefore, was clear gain to the public, as the public could never receive anything in point of rent or anything whatever from the property. His opinion had always been, and it was the opinion of others, that the Duke of Newcastle had some cause to complain; but he was certain of this, that neither the House,

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nor the public, nor the hon. Member for Coventry, had cause to complain of this transaction. He was perfectly ready to produce every document, and should be most anxious to produce every document; when a charge of this sort was brought against a public servant, his character should be thoroughly cleared. He should be most anxious to lay on the Table of the House every letter. He had consulted the solicitors upon it, and had urged upon them the necessity of doing this; but they had assured him that the mass of unimportant documents was so great (as many as two or three letters a week at one time passing between the solicitors on each side) that it would fill one of those large blue books which were sometimes laid on the Table of the House, and he was therefore unwilling to put the country to the expense of that mass of paper, which nobody would read; but he would produce every paper in his possession, the surveys, the valuation, the contract which appertained to it; and he would produce the conveyance from the Office of Woods and Forests to the Duke of Newcastle, the Reports of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to the Treasury in 1832, and the Treasury warrant of 1832. He believed that these documents, without giving the papers which passed between the solicitors on each side, would elucidate this transaction; but if not, if there were the smallest doubt about the matter, he hoped the hon. Member for Coventry would state it in the House, and that the House would permit him to do what he should be very unwilling otherwise to do—to lay on the Table of the House this mass of papers, showing every turn and twist of this transaction. He was perfectly certain that the mind of the hon. Member for Coventry, suspicious as it might be in transactions of this nature, would be quite satisfied; and if that hon. Member had any feeling of honour or fair play—and in the latter of these respects he (the Earl of Lincoln) thought he had some cause to complain of the hon. Member — he would come forward and state that the documents which he (the Earl of Lincoln) should lay on the Table of the House had cleared him completely from those imputations on his character, which the Notice which he had placed on the Books of the House had been so well calculated to throw upon it.
Mr. Humecould not hesitate for a moment in rising to say that he was perfectly satisfied, as he was sure the
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House must be, with the statement of the noble Lord, for a more complete explanation he had never heard. But after the statement of the noble Earl, and after the documents which he had produced of these proceedings, from the period when Lord Duncannon was at the head of the Department to the present day; it was impossible for any man at all acquainted with the sale of property of this nature not to mark the accuracy and regularity of the whole proceeding, and that now not the least doubt could remain on the subject. He thought, after this, that he should be acting most disingenuously if he allowed for one moment that these Papers should be produced. He was sure that the noble Lord, with his usual candour and firmness, would admit that he was pleased with the opportunity of making this explanation, and was quite confident that after it no one could entertain any doubt on the subject. He conceived that no blame was attached to his hon. Friend the Member for Coventry, for, having seen the statement of the fact without explanation in the Report of the Commissioners, he had shown it to him, when he (Mr. Hume) remarked that it appeared somewhat irregular; the consequence was that his hon. Friend had given notice on the subject. He would only repeat that he was most happy to have heard the manly and candid statement of the noble Lord, and after this explanation he should be very reluctant to have any document on the subject laid on the Table. Having made the Motion, he should now move for leave to withdraw it, merely adding, that so far from any blame being attached to the noble Lord, that he had most completely exonerated himself from the slightest suspicion.
Mr. Shawwished to state, before the Motion was withdrawn, that it had been mentioned to him in the early part of the evening by his hon. Friend the Member for Lymington, that he had occasion to look into in to the matter when the property was offered for sale, and he was convinced that if this claim of the Crown had been exposed for public sale, it would not have produced 20 l.
The Earl of Lincolnsaid, he hoped, although it was not altogether regular, that he should be permitted to make an observation. He wished, in the first place, to express his acknowledgment to the hon. Member for Montrose for the course that he had adopted. He privately had sincerely

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thanked him for having taken the place of the hon. Member for Coventry and brought forward this Motion, and he now again thanked the hon. Gentleman most sincerely for the expressions which he had made use of towards him. He hoped, notwithstanding the general cheers from both sides which had taken place at the proposal to withdraw the Motion, and which showed that the House was satisfied with his explanation—he hoped that the House would, more in satisfaction to his own feelings, than for any other reason, not agree to the withdrawal of the Motion. He only requested therefore the hon. Member to leave out the last words of the Motion, "for copies of all correspondence relating thereto," and if hereafter the hon. Member for Coventry should wish for that return, it should be produced.
Mr. Humeobserved that if such was the wish of the noble Lord he was bound to assent.
The Motion as restricted was agreed to.
House adjourned at eight o'clock.

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public. — 1a. Stamp Duties Assimilation; Companies' Clauses Consolidation; Companies' Clauses Consolidation (Scotland).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Society at Truro, for the Adoption of Measures for the Suppression of Intemperance.

HARBOURS OF REFUGE.
Lord Colchestersaid, that he rose, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, to move for an humble Address to Her Majesty to lay before the House a Copy of the Report of the Commissioners appointed in April last to inquire into the subject of Harbours of Refuge. As he understood that Her Majesty's Government would offer no opposition to the production of this Report, he should not occupy much of their Lordships' time in stating why the subject should be laid before their Lordships. It must be well known to such of their Lordships as had turned their attention to the state of the southern coast, that there was not from the South Foreland to Portsmouth, a distance of more than 100 miles, a single harbour capable of providing shelter for vessels of any size, or for men-of-war to lie in, so that they might be able to give protection to any vessels that might be passing by there. Great inconvenience had been felt in time of war, and there had been a great loss of life and property, from the want of harbours of refuge, when ships with Government troops and stores were making their passage from the river. No great work had been attempted to remedy this evil, with the exception of the Plymouth breakwater. A Committee of the House of Commons sat last Session on the subject, and recommended that some measure should be adopted; but said also, that a Commission to inquire into the details of the subject should be appointed by Her Majesty. A Commission was accordingly appointed, and directed to consider the necessity of constructing one or more harbours of refuge in the channel; and to fix on the site that should be chosen. It
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was required, first, that it should be easy of access at all times of the tide; secondly, that it should serve as a station for armed vessels of war, for the purposes of defence and offence; and thirdly, that it should possess facilities of defence in case of an attack by an enemy. The Commissioners visited all the principal stations on the coast, and collected a great deal of valuable evidence. Their Report recommended large works to be constructed at a very great expense, and the concluding paragraph stated that the Commissioners could not conclude their Report without expressing in the strongest terms their unanimous conviction that measures were indispensably necessary to give to the south-eastern parts of this kingdom harbours to act as a refuge and a powerful naval protection. He entirely concurred in that opinion, and trusted that before the end of the Session Government would take some steps in compliance with the recommendation of the Commissioners. Great inconvenience had been and would still be continued to be felt, if the coast were left unprotected.
Agreed to.

COURTS OF COMMON LAW PROCESS BILLS.
Lord Campbellmoved that the House should go into Committee on these Bills. There was one Amendment which he wished to make, and that was, that the process should be served on persons residing abroad, either by a British subject, or by a Notary Public.
Lord Broughamsaid, that this Amendment removed part of his objection to the measure. It was known that the Notaries Public in France were persons of high character, and could be trusted; but it might not be safe to repose the same confidence in the notaries of other countries. He would throw out this suggestion—whether a Judge's order should not be required, indicating, having regard to the particular country, in what way the service of the process should be performed?
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that this Bill might have very important effects with regard to the proceedings in Courts of Equity. He therefore hoped that his noble and learned Friend would give him time to consider what the operation of these Bills, in that respect would be.
Lord Campbellsaid, that he would leave it to his noble and learned Friend to name a day.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that he would

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name the first day of the meeting of the House after the Easter holidays.
After a few words from Lord Ashburton.
The three Bills passed through the Committee, and ordered to be reported the first Sitting Day after Easter.
House adjourned.