Sitting of 25 June 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—1a. Foreign Lotteries.
Reported.—Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics; Lunatics; Statute Labour (Scotland); Scientific and Literary Societies; Merchant Seamen.
3a. and passed:—West India Islands Relief; Sir Henry Pottinger's Annuity.
Private.—2°. Lord Barrington's Estate; Dublin Pipe Water (No. 2).
Reported.—London and South Western Railway (No, 1); Metropolitan Extension (re-committed); Norwich and Brandon Railway and Diss and Dereham Branches.
3°. and passed:—Falmouth Harbour Improvement.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. H. Johnstone, from Members of the Presbytery of Dumfries, for Better Observance of the Lord's Day.—By Captain Gordon, from Provincial Synod of Aberdeen, against Universities (Scot land) Bill.—By Mr. Drummond, from St. Andrew's, and Lord J. Stuart, from Maybole, in favour of Universities (Scotland) Bill.—By Mr. M. Gibson, from Merchants and others of Manchester, for Enforcing Observance of Treaty with Buenos Ayres.—By Mr. Hawes, from Oxford, and Wisbeach, against Importation of Hill Coolies into the Colonies.—By Mr. Hawes, from Huddersfield, in favour of the Ten Hours System in Factories.—By Mr. Goring, from several places, in favour of Lunatic Asylums and Pauper Lunatics Bill.—By Mr. J. O'Connell, from Kilfre parish, for Alteration of Law relating to Landlord and Tenant (Ireland)—By Mr. Wrightson, from James Falconer, against Parochial Settlement Bill.—By Mr. Hawes, from several Members of the Royal College of Surgeons, for Alteration of Physic and Surgery Bill.—By Mr. Smollett, from several Railway Companies, for Alteration of Poor Law Amendment (Scotland) Bill.—By Viscount Newry and Morne, from Kilkeel Union, for Relief from Payment of Loan.—By Mr. Hawes, from Chichester, for Abolition of Punishment of Death.—By Mr. H. Johnstone, from Annan, and Lochmaben, for Ameliorating the Condition of Schoolmasters (Scotland).—By Mr. Smollett, from Dumbarton, for Alteration of Statute Labour (Scotland) Bill.

BROAD AND NARROW GAUGES.
Mr. Cobdensaid, in rising to bring forward a Motion of which he had given notice, for the purpose of issuing a Commission to inquire into the propriety of establishing a uniformity of gauge for all railways, it was not his intention to go into any theoretical views, for the present, as to the comparative merits of the broad or narrow gauges. He referred briefly to various petitions which he had received on this subject from different parts of the country, and read a few extracts from the same, pointing out the evils and inconveniences

1183
arising from the circumstance of railroads running into, or having communication with, each other, being constructed of gauges of different dimensions. It appeared to him to be a matter which would produce much public advantage, if a commission of engineers was appointed to inquire into and report to the Legislature as to which description of gauge it would be most advisable to adopt generally; or to recommend the drawing of a line of demarcation through the different districts of the country where railroads were already established, in order to point out what gauge was to be used in those districts respectively, taking into consideration the gauges more prevalent in each. And it might be also most advisable to ascertain, through the medium of the same Commission, if possible, whether it might or might not be expedient and feasible to introduce uniformity of gauge throughout the kingdom, when the most desirable one should have been discovered. The hon. Member concluded by moving the following Resolution:—
"That, it having been represented to this House by petitions from various public bodies, as well as from merchants, manufacturers, and others, that serious impediments to the internal traffic of the country are likely to arise from the 'breaks' that will occur in railway communications from the want of a uniform gauge; and these representations not having been fully inquired into by any of the Committees of this House upon Private Bills, and it being desirable that the subject should be further investigated, an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty to be graciously pleased to issue a Commission to inquire whether in future Private Acts for the construction of railways, provision ought to be made for securing a uniform gauge; and whether it would be expedient and practicable to take measures to bring the railways already constructed, or in progress of construction, in Great Britain, into uniformity of gauge; and to inquire whether any other mode of obviating or mitigating the apprehended evil could be adopted, and to report the same to this House."
Mr M. Philipsseconded the Motion.
Sir G. Clerkdid not wish to offer any opposition to the Motion of the hon. Member for Stockport, because the question of which it treated was one which had assumed so much importance as to render it very desirable that it should be examined into by a proper tribunal, whose decision might carry weight with it in the opinion of that House. But, at the same time, he would throw out a sugges-
1184
tion for the consideration of the hon. Member opposite, whether it would not be more desirable to omit the latter portion of his Motion, or to modify it, where reference was made to the probability of securing uniformity of gauge on all railroads; as such a subject of inquiry might create no small alarm amongst those interested in railroads already in existence, who had a large amount of capital already sunk in these undertakings, and upon whom any change in the respect alluded to would entail very considerable injury. He certainly agreed in the necessity of taking into consideration the description of gauge to be used in different districts where there were the ramifications of so many railroads in connexion with others already established, and of deciding which was the best one to be adopted by the new projects. As he had observed at first, he had no objection to the Motion before the House; but he would recommend the hon. Member to omit or modify that portion of it to which he had alluded.
Mr. J. S. Wortleyexpressed his satisfaction at the introduction of such a Motion, as well as the manner in which it had been received by the Government, for the time had arrived when it became necessary to take some steps in this matter; but as it was only a subject for inquiry into all bearings of the question, he did not conceive the hon. Member for Stockport (as he was understood) ought to omit the part of his Motion which was suggested.
Mr. F. T. Baringwould be sorry if the Government objected to the fullest possible investigation into all the merits of a subject which was so important, and upon which it was so expedient to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion.
Mr. Ricardoalso advocated the necessity of instituting a full inquiry into the subject of the best gauge to be established, as well as for the purpose of obviating the acknowledged inconvenience of different gauges on railways in communication with each other.
Lord G. Somersetwas understood to concur generally in the view taken of the subject under discussion by Sir G. Clerk.
Mr. Wardhighly approved of the proposition of his hon. Friend the Member for Stockport; but at the same time he confessed, he feared it would be impossible to obtain a uniformity of gauge now throughout the country. His suggestion, however, for drawing certain lines of demarcation through the various districts of the king-

1185
dom, and determining on the gauge to be adopted by new railroads on those, taking into consideration the description of gauge most used on them at present, was a very useful and legitimate subject for inquiry by such a Commission as that proposed.
Mr. Shawalso concurred in the necessity of establishing such an inquiry as that recommended by the hon. Member for Stockport; but considered it very essential for the public benefit that no time should be lost, if it were once commenced, in coming to a decision on this important subject. It was of great moment that as little delay as possible should take place in conducting it to a termination.
Mr. Cobdenbriefly replied.
Motion carried nem. con.

DOG STEALING.
On the Motion for going into Committee on the Dog-Stealing Bill,
Mr. David Dundaswished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to this Bill. One of the provisions introduced in the measure was, to make a man liable to transportation for seven years for stealing a dog; but after the recent amendments which had been made in the criminal law, he thought it ill became any one who wished well to the criminal jurisprudence of this country, to permit such violent penalties to be rashly introduced into our criminal code. He fully concurred in all that could be said in praise of the motives which induced the hon. Member (Mr. Liddell) to bring in the Bill; but he, at the same time, thought it was the duty of the Government to step in and prevent the passing of any provision which would impose a penalty of transportation for seven years for the stealing of such an article as a dog. He also thought that the law, as it at present stood, quite sufficient for all exigencies that might arise. By the Statute of the 7th and 8th Geo. IV., a penalty of 20 l., over and above the value of the dog, could be imposed on any person stealing it; and for a second offence, imprisonment for twelve months, with hard labour, might be imposed in default of payment. The Act also authorized a magistrate to issue a search warrant in cases where dogs had been stolen; and, under these circumstances, he thought no alteration of the law was really necessary. A person did not commit felony by stealing a ferret or any such animal; and he would wish to know what distinction could be drawn between a favourite cat and a favourite dog, that would
1186
justify them in making the stealing of one a larceny, while the stealing of the other was not larceny. The hon. Member for Cockermouth, who had much experience in criminal law, had stated that he would much rather see men tried before a judge and jury than before a justice. He concurred fully in that opinion, if the sentence was to be transportation for seven years; but while the law, as it present stood, gave powers to magistrates to suppress the crime of dog stealing, he did not wish to see it altered until it was proved to be insufficient.
Mr. Henleysaid, in his neighbourhood the crime of dog stealing was very little heard of; but still he had been informed that there was a difficulty in procuring search warrants in instances where dogs had been stolen. It was thought that the cases were such as to render it hardly worth while to take that course, and it was also feared that the issue of a warrant would induce the parties to cut the dog's throat.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he would advise his hon. Friend not to persevere in fixing the penalty for dog stealing at transportation for seven years. But he wished, at the same time, to remark to the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Dundas), who had objected to that penalty, that there were some strange anomalies in the law as it now stood. He had been credibly informed that in one case, where a dog worth 25 l. or 30 l. had been stolen, the indictment against the offender had been laid, not for stealing the dog, but for the felony of the collar, which happened to be worth 7s. 6d. The party was convicted, and was at present undergoing the sentence of transportation for the offence. He was not going to enter into any argument with the hon. Member in reference to the nature of the penalty that ought to be imposed for dog stealing; but he would beg leave to ask whether it were not surely a fiction in the law which would not allow a person to be indicted for stealing a dog worth 20 l., while he could be transported for stealing a dog-collar worth 7s. 6d.? A very short time ago, the penalty of death was attached to the larceny of a sheep; and it was now transportation for life. The same state of the law applied, he believed, to the stealing of a jackass: and he would wish to know why they were to transport a person for life for stealing a jackass, or for seven years for stealing a dog-collar worth 7s. 6d., while no indictment could be preferred for stealing a dog worth 20 l. and upwards?
Mr. Liddellwas quite prepared to take the advice which had been so kindly offered to him by his hon. Friend opposite, and by his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, with respect to the propriety of withdrawing the penalty of transportation for seven years. He was very glad that the right hon. Baronet had alluded to the anomalous state of the criminal law in reference to dog stealing, as that was one of the reasons which had induced him to bring in the Bill. There was also another motive which influenced him in doing so. It should be recollected that the penalty of transportation would be the maximum penalty, and that it would not reach casual offenders, but the members of the gang of regular dog stealers who existed in this metropolis in order to commit these thefts, and then extort exorbitant sums from the owners for their restoration. It was when the character of these persons was known to the judge and jury through the police, that the penalty of transportation for seven years would apply for a repetition of the offence. He did not, however, conceive that penalty essentially necessary for the success of the Bill, as there were other portions of it which he thought would amply effect the object which he had in view; and he had, therefore, the less objection in giving it up. One of the reasons why search warrants were not alone sufficient was, that stated by his hon. Friend the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley), that dogs were frequently destroyed when it was known that search warrants for their recovery were issued; and another reason was the extreme difficulty of knowing in which of the many receptacles for stolen dogs that existed in the metropolis the animal was probably detained, so as to be able to state the matter on oath in the information. He did not profess to provide a remedy in that Bill for all cases that might occur; but he believed his Bill would give facilities for the detection of offenders which did not now exist. Without trespassing farther on the time of the House, he hoped the Bill would be then allowed to proceed in Committee.
Mr. Escottthought the distinctions in the law of property, which that Bill sought to do away with, had been originally introduced for very wise and beneficial purposes; and that if the alteration made by the present Bill were hereafter carried further, it would produce very bad effects in the criminal jurisprudence of the country. He would, therefore, wish to resist it at
1188
once. It was said that greater facilities were necessary for searching after stolen dogs; but he thought they could not be adopted without an increase of the penalty attached to the offence. When the Bill was first introduced, it was generally supposed that there were no means of punishing a person for dog stealing; but so far from such being the fact, it now appeared that a penality of 20 l. over and above the value of the dog might be imposed. If his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Dundas) divided against the Bill, he would be happy to join with him in doing so; and, at all events, he trusted the sense of the House would be taken on the third reading of the Bill.
House in Committee.
On the 2nd Clause,
Mr. Hawesmoved the omission of the clause, as he thought the law as it at present stood sufficiently stringent.
Mr. Liddellsaid, he had advisedly constituted the offence of dog stealing a misdemeanour in the clauses. He did not agree with the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Escott), in thinking that the distinction in the law, which refused to admit dogs or other animals kept solely for the pleasure and gratification of the owners to be regarded as property, was a wise one, especially as dogs were, from their utility and sagacity, to be in many cases considered in a very different light.
Mr. Watsonthought the penalty inflicted by the clause too much for stealing all the dogs in England.
Mr. Curteissaid, as a sportsman and a farmer, he should stand up to support the value set upon dogs. He could assure hon. Gentlemen that the loss of a valuable sporting dog was a very serious matter indeed. Without giving any opinion as to whether the penalties proposed to be fixed by the Bill were too stringent or not, he wished, as one who kept a great number of sporting dogs, not only for his own amusement, but for that of his friends and tenants, to bear testimony to the great value which was, in many cases, set upon them.
Mr. Williamssaid, as the hon. Member (Mr. Liddell) had already made a very liberal concession in withdrawing the penalty of transportation from the clause, he did not think there could be much difficulty in allowing it to pass.
Mr. Borthwickconsidered that the dogs which this Bill was intended to protect, were the very worst species of dogs. They

1189
were a race of dogs which were only admired for their extreme ugliness. He believed that more persons died of hydrophobia from bites by these pet dogs, than by any other description of dogs. He should support the Bill, however, as it would tend to put down a bad association.
Mr. Hawessaid, that this and the following clause appeared to him to be so objectionable, that he should divide upon it.
The Committee divided on the Question, that the clause stand part, of the Bill:—Ayes 33; Noes 6: Majority 27.

List of the AYES.

Berkeley, hon. Capt.

Hope, A.

Borthwick, P.

Lincoln, Earl of

Brotherton, J.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Buller, C.

Manners, Lord J.

Busfeild, W.

Marsland, H.

Cardwell, E.

Newry, Visct.

Clive, Visct.

Protheroe, E.

Craig, W. G.

Repton, G. W. J.

Curteis, H. B.

Russell, J. D. W.

Dalmeny, Lord

Sutton, hon. H. M.

Duff, J.

Thesiger, Sir F.

East, J. B.

Vivian, J. H.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Williams, W.

Fuller, A. E.

Wodehouse, E.

Gore, M.

Yorke, H. R.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

TELLERS.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Liddell, hon. H. T.

Henley, J. W.

Beresford, Major

List of the NOES.

Escott, B.

Wawn, J. T.

Hindley, C.

Trelawny, J. S.

TELLERS.

Warburton. H.

Bouverie H.

Watson, W. H.

Hawes, B.

The remaining clauses agreed to, and the House resumed.

SMOKE PROHIBITION BILL.
House in Committee on the Smoke Prohibition Bill, which was discussed at considerable length. Three Amendments were proposed; first, to omit steam-furnace chimneys for all kinds of mineral works; second, to omit those for iron works only; and third, for reporting progress and stopping the Bill, which engaged the House the whole of the evening. Finally, the Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be reported.
The House resumed, and adjourned at twelve o'clock.