Sitting of 28 July 1845

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—1°. Tenants (Ireland); Cost, Private Bills; Waste Lands (Australia).
2°. Apprehension of Offenders.
3°. and passed:—Customs Laws Repeal; Customs Management; Customs Duties; Warehousing of Goods; British Vessels; Shipping and Navigation; Trade of British Possessions Abroad; Customs Bounties and Allowances; Isle of Man Trade; Smuggling Prevention; Customs Regulation; Stock in Trade; Removal of Paupers; Court of Chancery; Physic and Surgery; Valuation (Ireland).
3°. and passed:—Real Property (No 3); Taxing Master, Court of Chancery (Ireland) Libel; Church Building Acts Amendment; Granting of Leases; Documentary Evidence.
Private.—Reported.—Ellison's Estate; Rochdale Vicarage (or Molesworth's) Estate; White's Charity Estate.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir W. Somerville, from Guardians of the Navan Union, for Alteration of Law relating to Landlord and Tenant (Ireland).—By Colonel Rolleston, from Practitioners of Medicine and Surgery, of Nottingham, in favour of Physic and Surgery Bill.—By Sir W. Somerville, and Mr. Wawn, from Guardians of Dunshaughlin Union, and Inhabitants of Kinsale, for Alteration of Poor Relief (Ireland) Act.—By Mr. Spooner, from a great number of places, for Alteration of Law relating to Promiscuous Intercourse—By Mr. Blackburne, from Nantwich, for Diminishing the Number of Public Houses.
The House met at twelve o'clock.

REMOVAL OF PAUPERS.
The Report on the Removal of Paupers Bill was brought up. On the question that it be agreed to,
Mr. Sharman Crawfordcomplained that the Bill would cause a great deal of misery by separating families. He would mention one instance, that of a labouring man, who, after leaving Newtownards, had resided thirty-three years at Whitehaven, and having become chargeable to the parish, he was immediately sent off to Newtownards, regardless of his prayers and entreaties to be permitted to remain at Whitehaven, where some of his children had gained settlements. This separation had so great an effect upon the unhappy man's mind, that he had hanged himself.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, that the Bill was intended chiefly to relieve Scotch and Irish paupers from many of the evils to which they had hitherto been exposed. In respect to the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Rochdale, he believed that the head of a family could not be removed in the way mentioned against his will, and if he were thus improperly removed, the party so offending would be subject to a severe penalty.
Report agreed to. Bill to be read a third time.

GAMES AND WAGERS.
House in Committee on the Games and Wagers Bill.
Clauses up to 16 were agreed to.
On Clause 17, Wagers not recoverable at law being proposed,
Mr. C. Berkeleyobjected to the proviso to the clause, that it was not to apply to subscriptions for a plate or prize, because it was legislating for one side only, and because it would, he contended, legalize gambling one way, while it attempted to put a stop to it on the other.
Sir J. Grahamthought the proviso essential to the clause. It only legalized mere subscriptions.
The Committee divided on the Question, that the proviso stand part of the clause:—Ayes 37: Noes 3; Majority 34.

List of the AYES.

Aldam, W.

Hamilton, G. A.

Arkwright, G.

Hawes, B.

Austen, Col.

Henley, J. W.

Baring, rt. hn. W. B.

Hope, hon. C.

Berkeley, hon. H.

Jones, Capt.

Blackburne, J. I.

Meynell, Capt.

Borthwick, P.

Milnes, R. M.

Bowes, J.

Nicholl, rt. hon. J.

Brotherton, J.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Bruce, Lord E.

Pringle, A.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Sandon, Visct.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C.

Cripps, W.

Somerset, Lord G.

Divett, E.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Trotter, J.

Ferguson, Sir R. A.

Warburton, H.

Flower, Sir J.

Wood, Col. T.

Fremantle, rt. hn. Sir T.

TELLERS.

Fuller, A. E.

Cardwell, E.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Mackenzie, W. F.

List of the NOES.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

TELLERS.

Fielden, J.

Dick, Q.

Wawn, J. T.

Berkeley, hon. C.

Other clauses agreed to. Bill to be reported. House resumed after five o'clock.

COUNTY MAGISTRATES.
In answer to a question from Mr. Henley,
Sir James Grahamsaid, that although cases might occur in which a magistrate might act singly in a judicial capacity, yet it would be a sound discretion to make such cases rather the exception than the rule; and where a penalty was to be levied, he thought it would be well to do so in the presence of other magistrates and the clerk, where it was possible. When cases occurred in which a delay would
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defeat the ends of justice, then it would often be necessary for a magistrate to act singly.
Mr. Henleywished to be informed whether or not it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to bring in a measure next Session relative to those cases where a magistrate was called on to act singly in a judicial capacity.
Sir J. Grahamwas not prepared to introduce any such measure.
In answer to Mr. Hume,
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he had no intention of introducing a measure to relieve the county magistrates from those duties. On the whole, he thought that they were most useful to the country from the manner in which they discharged their duties.

HOURS OF BUSINESS.
Mr. Brothertonwished to suggest to the right hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) that it would be better that, for the remainder of the Session, the House should meet at twelve o'clock, and continue its sitting until the business on the Paper for the day was finished, instead of adjourning for an hour or two, as at present, between the morning and evening sittings.
Sir R. Peelthought that it was objectionable to make any departure from the custom of the House in the transaction of business, especially at so late a period of the Session, without the general concurrence of the House. His own opinion was in favour of the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman, and if that suggestion met with general concurrence on the part of the House, he had no objection to it whatever. If, therefore, the House concurred in the suggestion, he had no objection to propose that, after to-morrow, the House should meet for the despatch of business at twelve o'clock, and sit continuously, instead of adjourning after the morning sitting.

EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS.
On the Motion that the Order of the Day forgoing into Committee of Supply be read,
Mr. Ewartsaid, that when the Military, the Naval, and the Ordnance Estimates were brought before the House, a statement was made of the prospects and condition of those branches of the public service respectively; and he did not see why, in like manner, there should not be an annual statement of the condition and prospects of the Educational Institutions which were

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supported partly or wholly by the public funds. What he called for was not a published Report, but a vivâ voce statement on this important subject. The publication of a blue book was not the most effectual way of bringing this matter before the House and the country, and he thought that the Annual Report, prepared by Commissioners and Inspectors appointed to go the round of the country, furnished a convenient mode not of developing, but of concealing such a question. Amongst other improvements which he thought were called for in connexion with the subject of education, was that of raising the condition of the schoolmasters of the country, and of increasing their pay. He trusted that this important improvement would be speedily realized. There was also a necessity for increasing the number and the efficiency of the training schools of the country, as a greater number of training masters than were at present to be had were required. As to the grant appropriated for the purpose of education, he thought that 75,000 l. was but a paltry grant for the supply of the educational wants of such a country as this. In Scotland, as well as in England, the pay of the schoolmaster was very inadequate. In both countries he was anxious to see the condition of the schoolmasters much improved. Connected with this question was the important consideration, as to Scotland, of the improvement of the condition of the schoolmasters belonging to the Free Church. He gave credit to the Government for their new system of education in Ireland, and did not apprehend that the fears of those who thought that that system would make the Irish an irreligious people would be at all realized. In reference to education, he thought that the Government could only interfere collaterally and not directly. So much for the first portion of the Motion of which he had given notice. Another portion of that Motion referred to public libraries, a subject to which he had, on former occasions, called the attention of the House. On one occasion, on which he had alluded to it, he was answered by the right hon. Baronet that there were libraries of a public nature already established in England, such as those connected with mechanics' institutes in our large manufacturing towns. But there was only one library in this country, of which he was aware, that could be compared with the libraries which were so numerous on the Continent. In France, in Italy, in Germany, and in other continental countries, not only in the large, but
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in many of the smaller towns, there were public libraries accessible to all classes, and to the foreigner as well as the native. If the Government of this country would only assist in promoting the establishment of such libraries in all our large towns, they would confer upon the public a great and a lasting boon. He did not ask the Government to originate them, he only asked them to assist in their establishment. There was another point which he deemed of great importance, which was, that Government should promote, as far as it could, the encouragement of education, by the examination of those persons who were candidates for subordinate offices under Government. This might be regarded by some as a very visionary proposal, and as a thing which could not be carried into effect. But he had been told by Members of the late Government that the experiment had been tried, Lord Melbourne having set aside three clerkships of the Treasury for that purpose, and that it had been successful. He thought such educational appointments would work well, and that the public servants thus selected would be found efficient and well qualified for their duties. It was simply his desire, in the present instance, to call the attention of the Government and of the House to this consideration, which he thought a very important one. Every point of the Motion which he was about to lay before the House had reference to the mode in which Government might promote, without unduly interfering with, the question of education. Undue interference in this matter he deprecated. Undue interference the people of this country would not tolerate. Upon this whole subject he felt so strongly, that he considered himself bound to take the sense of the House, if necessary, upon it. The hon. Gentleman concluded by laying the following Resolutions on the Table, and moving the first—

"1. That a statement be made, on the part of the Government, of the condition and prospect of such Educational Establishments as are supported wholly or partially by a vote of this House.

"2. That it is expedient that the formation of Public Libraries, freely open to the public, be encouraged.

"3. That it is expedient that Schools for the training of Masters be mote extensively promoted.

"4. That it is expedient that appointments to the subordinate offices of Government be made (as far as possible) by examination of the merits of the candidates for such offices."

Sir R. Peelsaid: However late the period of the Session, and however severe the pressure of public business, I cannot but think the importance of the subject justifies the hon. Gentleman in calling the attention of the House to the question of education. I shall very briefly notice the particular points to which the hon. Gentleman has referred, taking in order the Resolutions of which he has given notice. The House will have laboured under erroneous impressions if they supposed that there was not full information afforded with regard to the progress of education. I need not refer to the volume presented annually to the House as a reason why any oral statement should not be made to the House on the part of the Government, with regard to the progress of education during the preceding year. But for the purpose of indicating to those Members who take an interest in the question, I may say that there are annually presented to Parliament the Reports of the inspectors appointed by a Committee of this House, which Reports contain the most detailed and valuable information on the subject of education. There is the volume presented in the course of the present year, containing the able and full reports of the several Inspectors of Education. But I am not at all prepared to contend against the principle suggested by the hon. Gentleman. It is possible that because the information is so full and vague that Members may not readily acquire that knowledge of the subject which possibly they might obtain from an oral statement made by a Member of the Government. I am therefore disposed, on the part of the Government, to give my serious consideration during the recess to the proposition of the hon. Member. I think I can undertake to say, that during the course of the next Session this Vote will not be moved on the part of the Crown without such an explanation being made as shall answer the purpose of the hon. Member. I think it possible that such a statement may awaken public attention more forcibly to the subject, than the presentation of this volume, and will better enable Members to discuss the matter, and bring their local information to bear upon it. At any rate it will be a proof that the Government and Parliament attach due importance to the subject. I think I have said enough to show the hon. Gentleman that it will not be necessary for him to ask on this occasion for any expression of opinion on the part of the House. With reference to the grant
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for educational purposes, the hon. Gentleman says he deeply regrets the limited amount. The amount, however, has been an increase upon the grant of last year. The amount last year was 40,000 l. The amount in the present year is 75,000 l. Therefore, in the present year, as compared with the past, we have proposed a vote nearly double. For education in Ireland we have also voted 75,000 l.; so that we have proposed to vote for educational purposes in England and Ireland, in the present year, no less a sum than 150,000 l. That is a strong indication of the wish of the Government to apply the public money, so far as they can, to the purposes of education. I advise the hon. Gentleman, therefore, to leave this matter in the hands of the Government, and to rest satisfied that they will next year, if necessary, make an increased grant to further the object to which he has called attention. I entirely agree with him in what he says as to the status of the schoolmaster. I think his position ought to be regarded as honourable; and, by attaching importance and value to his labours, we shall be amply repaid. The hon. Gentleman has also referred to the necessity of increased grants for the normal schools in which the schoolmasters are prepared for their labours. He will find that, within the last two years, the Vote for that specific purpose has been increased—at least, that there has been an application for an increased sum for that purpose. Some years since the sum of 10,000 l. was granted for the normal schools of the British and Foreign School Society. In addition to that the sum of 10,000 l. was granted for the establishment of the schools of the Committee of Council. Within the last two years an annual grant of 1,000 l. was given to the National Society, and 750 l. was given to the British and Foreign Schools for their annual maintenance. There was also a grant of 3,700 l. made for the building and establishment of the Chester Diocesan Training School; and a grant of 3,200 l, towards the Training School in Lancashire; 3,500 l. was also given towards the building and establishment of the York Diocesan Normal School. In Scotland, towards the building and establishment of the Edinburgh Normal School, 4,000 l. was granted; and 5,000 l. towards the establishment of the Normal School in Glasgow. I think these Votes a sufficient proof that the Government have not undervalued the importance of the subject introduced by the hon. Gentleman.

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The supply of masters, properly qualified, is at the root of the whole system; and I quite agree with the hon. Gentleman, that you cannot more effectually promote education—local education—than by making a proper provision for the masters. The Committee of Council feel that one of the most important objects to which their attention has been directed, is the increase of the means of providing masters properly qualified, and of good character, for the education of youth. Within a recent period, we have extended the objects for which the annual grant is made. In England, in 1840, a sum of money was granted for the erection of 211 schools. In the year ending August, 1843, a sum was granted for the erection of 251 schools; but in the year ending August, 1844, funds were supplied for the purpose of building not less than 380 schools. Then we have made another addition to the object for which the Vote was given. We have consented to give Votes towards the construction of schoolmasters' houses; because we think it of great importance that the master should reside in the neighbourhood of the schools; and, by providing the masters with a comfortable residence, you hold out an increased inducement to persons of competent attainments to undertake the important task of education. As I said before, in addition to the objects to which the Vote was applied, we found it necessary to propose an increase to the Vote, to the amount of 35,000 l. I am bound, at the same time, to admit that I doubt whether that increase ought to be the limit of future grants. So great is the desire of persons interested in the welfare of the working classes to increase the means of instruction, that I much doubt whether the application of an increased sum in the course of next year would not be fully justified by the circumstances of the case. I think, after what I have stated, that it will be hardly necessary for the hon. Gentleman to call for any expression of the sense of the House. The last Resolution moved by the hon. Gentleman, and the last topic to which he adverted, was the policy of making the appointment to the subordinate offices of Government depend, as far as possible, on an examination of the merits of the candidates for such offices. I doubt whether the system at present adopted in the different departments of Government is not better. In almost all cases, the appointment is for the first year as a probationer. The individual is appointed
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with the distinct understanding, that if his conduct and attainments do not justify the permanent retention of his services, he is liable to lose his situation. The appointment of a person to the public service should not entirely depend on the exhibition he may make on examination; there are points connected with the moral character that ought to be taken into the account. The mere exhibition of superiority in an examination must be necessarily imperfect; and if you were to rely on it, you would find that you were not securing in all cases a supply of trustworthy persons. I admit there ought to be evidence of sufficient attainment to justify an appointment; but I doubt whether that rule of giving a trial for the first year is not, on the whole, a better mode of securing faithful, trustworthy, public servants, than making their eligibility depend on such an exhibition. As to extending Government patronage to boys educated in those schools, there would be great difficulty in acting practically on that suggestion. The youths leave school at fourteen or fifteen, and were not eligible for public employment till twenty-one. During that interval their time would not be very usefully employed, if led to rely on an appointment at the end of six years. A similar encouragement held out to the schoolmaster would tend to interfere with a sufficient supply of schoolmasters. The hon. Gentleman himself will see the difficulty of practically carrying that suggestion into effect; besides, such appointments would have the effect of discouraging those who were unsuccessful. Under these circumstances, I hope I have met the proposition of the hon. Member in the spirit in which it deserves to be met. I hope the hon. Gentleman will allow the question to be put from the Chair without calling for a division.
Mr. Wysesaid, he was about to second the Motion of his hon. Friend; but the observations of the right hon. Baronet had gone far to remove the motives which might have induced his hon. Friend to press this question to a division. The right hon. Baronet had omitted in his statement any allusion to what the hon. Member (Mr. Ewart) had said respecting libraries. The observations of the hon. Member on that head were most important, and highly deserving of the attention of the Government. The proposal of the right hon. Gentleman, of giving a more comfortable house to the master, and a

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more comfortable school to the pupils, was deserving of the greatest praise. He hoped that the right hon. Baronet would go further, and allow a small portion of land in the agricultural districts to the teacher, so as to enable him to command more comfort. This would be peculiarly applicable in the case of Ireland, and more so than in the case of England, as land would be more easily procured for such purpose. He wished to call the attention of the right hon. Baronet to the means that might be taken to improve the condition of teachers, in Ireland particularly. It was proposed, that the National Board of Education in Ireland should be incorporated, so as to enable them to take lands for the purposes to which he (Mr. Wyse) had adverted. He thought that great improvement might be made in the normal schools, upon the understanding that a certain system of education should be adopted in those schools which would be satisfactory. He thought that, under such an arrangement, an increased sum of money might be given for the improvement and enlargement of those schools. He rejoiced at the statement which had been made by the right hon. Baronet, and which he had reason to think from his observation of the conduct pursued by the right hon. Baronet on this question on former occasions, he was sure—that those observations were not made lightly, but that they would be followed, as they had heretofore been, by deeds and measures. He hoped that, after the observations that had been made by the right hon. Baronet—a declaration which was most satisfactory—that his hon. Friend (Mr. Ewart) would be induced to withdraw his Motion.
Mr. Humeexpressed the pleasure which he felt at the declaration of the right hon. Baronet on the subject of education. He was glad to find that a subject of such great importance had been brought forward by his hon. Friend. He was happy to hear, from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, that the cause of education, and the education of the people at large, engaged the best attention of the Government. He was glad to find that the desire of the Government was that all classes should be educated without exclusion. He was glad to see, in the increased grant for education, an increased desire on the part of the Government to promote the education of all classes without exclusion. He was glad to see that their interest in the cause of education
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had induced them to increase the grant for education in England and Ireland. He hoped that if this grant should be found insufficient for its object, that the grant would be increased, and that some report would be laid before the House of the application of the former grant, the various points of expenditure, and the mode in which the money was disposed of. He was glad to see that the Committee of the Privy Council had increased their exertions in assisting schools with school materials, such as maps. He thought this a matter of great importance. He believed that no people were more ignorant of the extent, the various circumstances, and statistics of the British possessions, than the British people generally were. Now in Prussia this was not the case. Every school in Prussia was furnished with an atlas, containing an exposition of the extent and relations of the Prussian dominions; and to which was appended a various and extensive amount of statistical facts with respect to the population, revenue, extent of territory, and various other circumstances appertaining to Prussia, so that every boy in those schools in Prussia was made acquainted with the leading facts connected with the geographical and statistical state and relations of Prussia. He thought that this was a subject worthy of consideration, and means ought to be taken to diffuse a similar knowledge with respect to Great Britain, through the means of those schools, to the boys educated in them. He hoped that if the right hon. Baronet should find the grant of 75,000 l. insufficient, that he would recommend a larger grant. He concluded by expressing his satisfaction at what had been stated by the right hon. Baronet, and he thought that after that declaration his hon. Friend could not do better than to leave the matter in the hands of the Government.
Mr. Haweswas glad that the Motion of his hon. Friend had been brought forward, as it had elicited the important declaration of the right hon. Baronet. No grant which the Government could propose would meet with more cordial satisfaction from that House, than an increased grant for the purposes of education. In saying this, he could not but consider the grant of 75,000 l. as inadequate for the great purposes to which it was intended to be applied. The education now afforded in our public schools was very imperfect. Private teachers were necessary in addition to the school instruction. This increased the

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expenses, which were so great as to put it out of the power of the middle classes to avail themselves of them. He thought something like the collegiate system which they had lately established in Ireland might be introduced into this country with great advantage. It was necessary, also, to improve the position of teachers, and to induce men of talent and ability, by holding out to them sufficient advantages, to continue to devote themselves to the instruction of youth. With this view, he would suggest that a fixed annual sum should be allowed, in the shape of a pension, say from 50 l. to 100 l. each, to such schoolmasters as had distinguished themselves by great talent and long service in the instruction of youth.
Amendment negatived.

SCHOOL OF DESIGN.
On the Question that the Speaker do now leave the Chair,
Mr. W. Williamssaid, if the right hon. Baronet would consent to the appointment of the Committee for which he had given notice of his intention to move, he would not detain the House with a single observation.
Sir R. Peelbelieved his hon. Friend would be able to show that there was no ground whatever for the allegations in the petition upon which the hon. Member had founded his case for a Committee. If so, and considering that it would be most objectionable to do any thing that might tend to encourage insubordination in the school, he must refuse his assent to the Motion.
Mr. W. Williamswould then proceed to call the attention of the House to the circumstances under which he brought forward the Motion. He believed he was in a condition to prove that great mismanagement existed in regard to this institution. That it had proved a complete failure for the objects for which it was instituted was proved by the Report of the Committee which had been just presented to the House. The Committee say—
"It is to be regretted that manufacturers are not more generally disposed to meet the views of such candidates for their service, and to afford them such facilities and liberal encouragement as would serve to secure, for the purposes of ornamental manufactures, much available talent, which, in default of such encouragement, is often withdrawn from the further study of ornament, and directed exclusively to the pursuit of fine art."
But the very next paragraph contradicted
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this, and showed that the school had excited the highest expectations amongst the manufacturers, for it stated—
"In the course of the last year, numerous applications have been received for the execution of designs in various departments of ornamental art, and every endeavour has been made to comply with these requests, as far as the execution of such commissions has been consistent with, and could be made to form a part of, the prescribed exercises and course of study in the school. Designs for different purposes have thus been furnished to manufacturers in London, and in several provincial towns, and from time to time manufacturers and others have purchased of students various designs which have been produced in the performance of the exercises of the school. In the number of such commissions, and in the extent to which the productions of the students are applied to commercial purposes, a constant increase is evident; and the numerous communications which come before the Council at each monthly meeting of the committee on correspondence, as well as the frequent visits and inquiries of persons connected with ornamental manufactures, may be noticed in proof of increasing relations between the school and those commercial parties whose interests this institution was especially designed to promote."
The failure of the school was attributed as he believed, to the constitution of its managing body. The whole management was confided to twenty-four gentlemen, who were called the Council of the School; and when was there an instance of any institution having a governing body of this nature, consisting of twenty-four persons, being successful? Some time after the commencement of the school, Mr. Dyce, a distinguished artist and very talented man, was appointed to conduct it, and he performed that duty with great ability and perfect satisfaction to all parties. He was, however, removed, in consequence of some dispute with the directors. A Mr. Wilson was then appointed director, a gentleman unlike Mr. Dyce, for he was neither artist nor workman. Subsequently, a gentleman most distinguished for his talent, an associate Royal Academician, and one of the most rising men of the day, Mr. Herbert, was appointed to teach the school. That gentleman, believing that the school was capable of producing great national advantages, undertook for a salary, which could be of no object to him, the duties of master. The great ability of Mr. Herbert was admitted by the Council themselves in their Report; he was, however,

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dismissed. And he understood that on the occasion of that gentleman's dismissal, four only of the twenty-four members of the Council were present. No doubt there were many highly talented men amongst the members of the Council; but the great misfortune was that they seldom or never attended. One great difficulty in carrying out the objects of such an institution as the School of Design was the getting together a class of talented young men advanced in the arts. That difficulty had, in this case, been got over, and a class was formed, consisting of thirty-nine young men efficient as artists, that efficiency being proved by the fact, that five of the prizes given in 1843 were obtained by members of this class; and last year the same class carried away thirteen of the highest out of twenty prizes. The young men composing this senior class wrote a letter to the Council, complaining that the director was not capable of affording them the instruction they required; and the Council for this, without any inquiry, ordered their expulsion. The right hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) said they should not encourage a rebellious spirit amongst the pupils; and no doubt he thought that the thirty-seven scholars who had made these representations to the Council were mere boys, or the sons of poor men. They were neither. There were amongst them the sons of gentlemen as respectable as many of those he was now addressing; and instead of being mere boys, they were for the most part men between twenty-one and thirty years of age, many of whom had evinced considerable talent. The Council had since offered to permit the return of those young men upon terms contained in a letter drawn up by this very Mr. Wilson, in language as offensive as could well be imagined. They were required to make a special application to the director, acknowledging the impropriety of their previous conduct, and expressing their intention to conform themselves in every respect, for the future, to all the regulations of the school, as laid down by the directors. This might be a proper way to treat boys of fourteen or fifteen years of age; but it was not the way to treat men who had left the school not from any rebellious spirit, but because they found they were wasting their time there for want of sufficient means of instruction. These pupils had offered to
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Mr. Herbert, their former master, the same salary he had been allowed at the school, namely, 100 l. a year, if he would undertake their instruction, devoting only one-half of the time to that duty which he had been required to give at the school; but that gentleman refused, for he could make five times as much by applying the same time to his profession. In consequence of the young men who gained the prizes last year being expelled, there was now nobody in the school to compete for them. And here he must say that the Council had acted with less fairness than he expected, in declining to mention in their Report the names of those students who gained prizes last year, and were afterwards expelled. He was informed that the exhibition this year exhibited a miserable lack of talent, and the prizes were chiefly obtained by persons who could not be said to belong to the school—certainly by persons who had not been educated therein. One person, who had gained two prizes, had been seven years a designer in some of the manufacturing districts of Scotland, and had obtained a respectable living there by his talents as a designer. Another person, who had gained three prizes, had only been three months at the school, having been educated elsewhere. Two or three other old designers had obtained prizes. Let the House look at the falling-off in the number of pupils this year, as compared with the last. In April, 1844, the number of pupils attending the evening classes was 196; in July it was 189, showing a falling-off of seven. This year, the number in April was 186, and in July, as he was told, it was only 111, being a failing off of seventy-five. This was to be attributed to the proceedings of the Council in expelling thirty-seven of the most advanced and most able young men in the school. What was the present state of the school? Mr. Pugin, one of the most able men in this or any other country, stated that there were but two Englishmen of any talent in his service as decorators in the Gothic department, and these were two of the pupils who had been expelled from the School of Design. In a letter which Mr. Pugin had made public, he gave it as his opinion that there was no hope of seeing any real good effected by the School of Design, as at at present managed; though under a different system it might have been made the means of creating a school of national

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artists. Should his Motion for a Committee be not granted, he would entreat, for the sake of the public good, that, at all events, the right hon. Gentleman would dismiss the Council, and, instead of having twenty-four members, assemble a smaller body who would attend. He attached great importance to the subject. Owing so much as he did to manufactures, he felt the greatest possible interest in their advancement in every way. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that—
"A Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the allegations contained in the Petition of the Senior Students, of the School of Design in Somerset House, and into the general management and present state of that School."
Sir G. Clerkwas unable, upon the part of the Government, to comply with the proposition of the hon. Member, as he thought that nothing could be more calculated to destroy the prospect of public benefit arising from the School of Design, than for the House to accede to the prayer of a small number of students for a Committee of Inquiry into their allegations. The hon. Member's complaints seemed to resolve themselves into two classes, the one founded upon gross partiality alleged to have been shown to Mr. Wilson, the other on gross injustice alleged to have been perpetrated towards Mr. Herbert. Mr. Wilson was chosen by the directors to succeed to Mr. Dyce, upon that gentleman's withdrawal from the establishment. He was an artist of very high talent, and one for whose works considerable prices had been given by the best judges. Besides his qualifications as an artist, Mr. Wilson was a man of fine taste and extensive knowledge of the history of the fine arts. Now, the duties of director of the School of Design were different from those of a mere teacher of painting. He did not wish to say a word in disparagement of Mr. Herbert; but he was employed in the school merely to teach drawing from the figure—not a primary or principal object of the School of Design, but one of an entirely subsidiary nature. Mr. Herbert was not a teacher of ornamental design; but unfortunately, because the pursuit of drawing from the figure was one more likely to be attractive to young men of artistic talent, than the mechanical work of designing patterns, there was a tendency on the part of many
1154
of the young persons frequenting the School of Design, to go there with the view rather of studying in order to become artists, than mere designers of patterns for manufactures. To this fact, might be traced the late unfortunate disturbances in the school. By far the larger numbers of the alleged "senior students" were under nineteen years of age; four of them were only fifteen, another four were only sixteen, and only five or six were above the age of twenty. An unfortunate difference, in which the petitioners had taken part, had arisen between Mr. Herbert and Mr. Wilson, the former having applied disparaging epithets to the latter, for which there could be no justification. According to the rules of the school, notices had been affixed to the doors of the class rooms, stating that certain students had incurred punishments for inattention. One of them had been attached to the door of Mr. Herbert's class room, and he and his pupils took up the matter as a personal insult. An unseemly altercation took place in the class room, Mr. Herbert appealing to the students against the character of Mr. Wilson. It was then found necessary, in order to preserve discipline, to suspend the class. Let them examine some of the statements of the students implicated; and then let them say whether such representations, coming from boys, many of them under fifteen years of age, to the effect that Mr. Wilson was incapable of giving them instruction, could be for a moment entertained by the House. The grievances of the students had been put into a printed shape, under the title of their "depositions." Now, among the students, there was one person, twenty-nine years of age, named Hearn; and in order to show the animus by which these lads were inspired, he would direct attention to some of his statements. This gentleman then stated, that Mr. Wilson took him into his private room to show him some of his (Mr. Wilson's) original drawings; and that on being left to copy one of these, he discovered in a corner of the canvass the name of an Italian artist. The inference was obvious. Now, the fact was this, Mr. Wilson had given this young man to copy some characteristic drawings of his own early Italian architecture, upon which he had written in the corner the name of the place at which the several drawings were made, and which this learned critic

1155
mistook—never having heard of the town of Orvieto—for the name of some great unknown and unappreciated Italian artist. After this specimen of the talents and acquirements of the leader of the dissatisfied students, he put it to the House whether, on the ground of such complaints, the hon. Member had made out his case for inquiry? However, if the hon. Member was right in his statement that the School of Design was making no progress, that would be an important point in his favour. He hoped that he would go to the exhibition now open at Somerset-house, and perhaps he would there see what would make him change his opinion. That exhibition was one of the best which had yet been opened to the public, and it had been got up without any particular ostentation or straining after effect. But the best proof of the excellence of the patterns consisted in the fact that no sooner were they exhibited than the greater number were purchased at high prices by eminent manufacturers. There was a test of the progress which the school had made. He believed, too, that applications had been made by various manufacturers to the Council to recommend them to young men as designers in various branches of industrial production. Many persons, too, who had formerly received their patterns from France, found it unnecessary now to do so, as they were enabled to get patterns here drawn with just as much skill and taste as any received from abroad. Another proof of the success of the school would be found in the progressive increase of the students. Considering, indeed, the shortness of the time during which the school had been founded, it was surprising how so much had been effected by it; and although these students had complained of Mr. Wilson not being able to impart instruction to them, yet that gentleman had received the most flattering testimonials from those who were really the senior students of the school, thanking him for the instruction and information which he had communicated to them, both as regarded the history and the style of art in all ages and all countries. Under these circumstances, looking to the progress which the school had made, to the satisfactory nature of the present exhibition, knowing that the situation of Mr. Herbert had been filled up by an artist of quite as great reputation; knowing all this, and
1156
being of opinion that the recent attack on Mr. Wilson had been dictated by a bad heart, he trusted that he had said enough to show the House the propriety of refusing the Committee moved for by the hon. Member.
Mr. Ewartthought the time of the House ought not to be taken up by mere personal disputes; but on that portion of the question which was not personal a Member was justified in making a few remarks. What was the aspect of the case before them? Did the hon. Baronet deny that the school was disorganized? Thirty-seven of the senior pupils had seceded; he called the school disorganized, for it was thus torn and rent asunder. Mr. Herbert, the master, had left; the complaints were general; the manufacturers complained that they could not get good designs; Mr. Pugin, one of the most eminent judges of art in the country, declared the state of the school to be highly unsatisfactory, and said he was obliged to seek out artists to work his ornaments on the Continent. Had they not a right then to ask for inquiry? For what purpose was the school originally established? It was established by Lord Sydenham, in consequence of the Report of a Committee of which the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Hawes) and other hon. Gentlemen were Members. He was asked by Lord Sydenham to be a member of the Council, but, disapproving of the constitution of the school, he refused; the school, he believed, would have gone on well had it been properly conducted, and he believed it would hereafter produce excellent effects. But the hon. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk) seemed to consider that the object of the school was to make workmen, not artists. That was the fatal error; in that consisted the error of the whole system. A school of design ought to rest upon two things—the study of the human figure, and copying from nature. This was the course of study pursued by the most eminent artists, like Raffaelle, or those who had wrought practically in the art of ornament, like Benvenuto Cellini. The great school of Napoleon at Lyons was based on the study of the figure; and the school at Somerset-house would attain greater eminence, if the same course of study were adopted. In Paris, in the Ecole Royale de Dessein and the Ecole Communale, study from nature and life was rigidly enforced. In the school at Manchester

1157
the study of the figure was introduced under Mr. Bell; a dispute arose with Lord Sydenham on the subject; the study was discontinued, and to that might be attributed the decline of the school. As to the constitution of the school at Somerset-house, he agreed with the hon. Member for Coventry that it was doubtful whether its government should be intrusted to a board. He had no faith in the divided government that existed under boards, and he believed the right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary would incline to the same opinion. He would rather see some one person responsible to that House. In a council of many members there would be sure to be parties, or, the greater number absenting themselves from idleness, the real authority fell into the hands of five or six. He had no wish to use such a word as "job:" but in this case things had a tendency to become such in the hands of a junta. He thought there ought to be an inquiry, and if the hon. Member divided, he should support him.
Mr. Wakleyhad hoped that one of the Council would have offered his opinion to the House, and was surprised the hon. Member for Lambeth had not done so. No answer had been given to the statement of the hon. Member for Coventry; the hon. Baronet (Sir G. Clerk) had undertaken the task, but the hon. Baronet must feel he had not discharged it to his own satisfaction. He could scarcely have weighed the case duly when he told the House it was a trumpery one. The public money was asked for to be expended on the school, and it was alleged to be in a stale of disorganization; he was also informed, by persons fully competent to judge, that it was conferring little or no benefit on the community. Was this state of things to last? The Committee was asked for at a late period of the Session, and it was almost impossible then to go into an inquiry; but, would the Government grant a Committee at the commencement of the next Session? Were the allegations made by the students to be passed over unregarded? Where was their insubordination, or allegations of misconduct on their part? Was any charge ever made against them till they complained to the Council? For making that complaint they were expelled the establishment, and all their expectations and prospects blasted. Was the institution made for the masters or the students? The Report made by the Council
1158
to the House of Commons passed over the differences in silence; only the slightest reference was made to them in a portion of one paragraph. There was not a word about the dismission of Mr. Herbert; the Report was an attempt to deceive and practise a delusion on the House. The facts most material to the utility of the establishment were entirely concealed. Mr. Herbert's dismissal was an insult to that gentleman, and an injustice to the students; a gentleman of higher attainments and capability could not be found in the country—he was universally respected in the school, and was dismissed on account of a difference with the director. He thought there ought to be a fair inquiry. He understood, out of the twenty-four members of the Council, only four were present when Mr. Herbert was dismissed; and, besides this, he had heard that when a reconciliation was talked of between Mr. Herbert and the director, one of the four said, they must put a stop to this! The students merely complained of Mr. Wilson's incompetency, and he thought they would not have risked such a complaint without cause. The Council never inquired into the justice of their complaint, but dismissed them at once: was it to go forth to all the schools in the country, that the students must not complain of their masters, under pain of dismissal? The constitution of the school was generally defective. It was governed by a sort of piebald board; and with such a board it was perfectly impossible that the school would ever be well governed, neither would it ever be well conducted, while the favoured director was continued in an office to which he was incompetent. His incompetency laid the foundation of the insubordination of the pupils, and the influence of intellect, as a controlling power, was necessarily lost, or at least weakened.
Mr. Hawessaid, the hon. Member for Coventry had received most incorrect information on this subject. He had also made use of language as regarded the Council of which they had a just right to complain. The conduct of the Council by no means laid them open to the charge of jobbing, or of being a clique, or of having "cooked up" their Report. The Council laid their Report upon the Table of the House, but they had not dared even to allude to the fact that they had dismissed Mr. Herbert, nor would the House have been aware of the fact had it not

1159
been for the Motion of his hon. Friend. He said it was not dealing fairly with the House. He trusted that the right hon. Baronet would take the whole case into his serious attention before the next Session; because, in regard to the fine arts and the position of the working classes in respect of them, there could be no more important question. He understood that from Manchester alone upwards of 20,000 l. was sent abroad for designs. It was true that the Report did not allude to the dismissal of Mr. Herbert, and he thought the Council would not have well discharged their duty to the public, had they filled it with a detailed account of the unfortunate squabbling which had broken out in the school. The Council deeply regretted the fact; but Mr. Wilson and Mr. Herbert could not agree—the Council failed in effecting a reconciliation between them; and as both gentlemen could not remain in the school, the Council, after deep and very anxious consideration, determined that it would be for the interests of the school that Mr. Wilson should remain director; consequently Mr. Herbert was compelled to retire. Mr. Wilson was well known to be an eminent artist. He had been sent abroad to report on works of ancient art; he made his Report, which was laid on the Table of that House, and it was one which had never been surpassed. The hon. Member passed a high eulogium on the talents and fitness of Mr. Wilson for his situation as director, and observed that that gentleman had furnished a Report on ancient art which was confessedly the best that had been made, and which had been considered sufficiently good to be printed by order of that House. The hon. Member for Coventry said the school had declined; but the amount of fees received in each year showed that it had gone on progressively. In 1838, the fees received amounted to 183 l.; in 1839, to 167 l.; in 1840, to 103 l.; in 1841, to 133 l.; in 1842, to 164 l. in 1843, to 238 l.; and in 1844, to 326 l. The increase in the number of students was, of course, in the same proportion. The manufacturers regarded this school with so much interest, that they applied for and received several of the students as apprentices to ornamental work. There was not one of the directors that would not be glad to see any alteration made that could promote the interest of the school; but when inquiry was sought on the ground that they were a set
1160
of jobbers, he (Mr. Hawes) would not consent to an inquiry on such terms.
Mr. Wysecould also bear testimony to the fulness and fairness of the inquiry instituted by the Council into what he must designate as this unfortunate quarrel. He should feel it his duty to oppose the Motion as it then stood.
Mr. Humewould advise his hon. Friend not to press his Motion. The fact of the dismissal of a man of so much talent as Mr. Herbert, indicated that there was something wrong in the present system. There must be in the Report, he thought, a suppression of some important facts, and he trusted that Her Majesty's Government would consent to lay additional information on the Table, in order to enable the House to form a correct judgment.
Amendment negatived.

POLICE (IRELAND).
Viscount Clementsmoved—
"The consideration of the petitions of John Connif, E. Kirwan, Robert Clegg, and Joseph Boyd, formerly in the Irish police; and further, to recommend some change being made in the regulations of that body."
The noble Lord complained of the system of quartering whole families on the public, by putting them into the police force, and also of the mode in which the pensions and superannuation fund were managed. The stipendiary magistrates received the largest sums as superannuation allowances in proportion to what they paid to the latter fund, whilst the privates who paid most, received the least. He thought it was altogether improper to mix up the magistracy and the police, and he could not understand the principle on which the superannuation allowances to the magistrates were regulated. The Government had been much abused for the appointment of Major Priestly as Deputy Inspector of Police; but he (Lord Clements) was happy to compliment them on that step, which he believed to be a wise one.
Sir T. Fremantlesaid, the charge was not of such a serious nature as to need a minute defence, and therefore, he should not enter on the question at any length. He reminded the noble Lord that it was the practice of the army for superior officers to try inferior, and it was sanctioned in the police by Act of Parliament. It was creditable to the management of Colonel M'Gregor, that the noble Lord

1161
could bring no stronger charges against the police than those he had made on this occasion. He (Sir T. Fremantle) regretted the dismissal of some of these persons, because he knew that three of them were men of good character; but with respect to Boyd's case, that individual had stated, that he had applied to Lord Clements, because he understood that he could procure him a pension. Boyd, however, had had the full gratuity allowed by law previously, and so likewise had the others in question. The noble Lord had complained, that the sons of officers were appointed to situations in the constabulary; but he (Sir T. Fremantle) thought that was a fact for which the Government should be praised rather than blamed, as they thus rewarded old and deserving men, who had served their country. With respect to the non-receipt of rewards for the apprehension of offenders, it arose from the great difficulty in determining the right claimant. The noble Lord had referred to the evidence of Colonel M'Gregor; but he was bound to say, that Colonel M'Gregor had the confidence of his superiors, and that he eminently deserved it. In regard to the military character of the police in Ireland, he should be very glad that they could go about without arms; but the state of the country rendered it impossible. Under these circumstances he could not agree to the Motion.
Mr. Sheilwished to ask a question respecting the distribution of the patronage over this force. Under the late Government, Colonel M'Gregor had appointed, he believed, two in three of the vacancies in the chief constables.
Sir T. Fremantle: No, one in three.
Mr. Sheilwished to ask what was the course now pursued, and whether the recommendation of Colonel M'Gregor was not considered almost conclusive?
Sir T. Fremantlesaid, that no change had been made by the present Government with reference to those appointments. All the inferior posts were placed at Colonel M'Gregor's disposal, and of the superior officers two out of three belonged to the Lord Lieutenant, and a great many were given to the sons of officers. The third belonged to Colonel M'Gregor, to promote such officers as he considered entitled to promotion.
Motion negatived.
House in Committee.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The first Question was, that the sum of 3,410 l., be granted to defray the charges of the Civil Establishment of the Bahama Islands.
Mr. C. Bullerwished to make some observations on this Vote. The population of the Bahamas was 25,000, and the local revenue was 21,943 l. He thought, that with such a revenue they ought not to come to this country for any more. The great principle of these Colonies ought to be that they should cut their coat according to their cloth. He found in these Votes 5,670 l. for judicial officers. Then there was an income of 3,227 l. for clergymen. Could these Colonies provide nothing for clergymen? He did not mean to divide the House; but he hoped that next Session these Estimates would be brought forward at a better time, and that those who objected to these charges on this country would take the opportunity of recording their sentiments on the subject.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that a sum of 4,049 l. be granted for the Civil Establishment of the Bermudas,
Mr. C. Bullersaid, that this was on a different footing, as the Bermudas were a penal settlement, but considering that the population was only 10,000, and the revenue 15,000 l., and that this year there was a surplus of 1,907 l., they ought not to come and ask of this country a sum of 4,049 l.
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, that the Bermudas were a great military station, in consequence of their being a penal settlement, and that increased the charge. This relief had always been given to the Colony, for though in some years there was a surplus, in others there was a deficiency.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that the sum of 3,070 l. be granted, to defray the charges of the Civil Establishment at Prince Edward's Island,
Mr. C. Bullersaid, that this was about the worst case he knew. The population of this Colony was nearly 50,000; the revenue was 10,500 l.; the island possessed a very rich soil, and an admirable climate, and yet we were charged with this additional Estimate. He did not object to the payment by this country of the salary of the Lieutenant Governor, for he thought the most prudent course

1163
would be to defray from the public funds of this country the salaries of Colonial Governors and of their secretaries. But he could not conceive why the Colony should not pay the salaries of its chief justice, attorney general, and other officers. He would not now divide the House on this Vote; but he wished to state, that it was his intention, during the next Session of Parliament, to do more than merely call the attention of the House to these subjects.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that the sum of 12,000 l. be granted to defray the charge for the Civil Establishment at St. Helena, and for pensions and allowances to Officers of the East India Company's late establishment in that Island,
Mr. Williamssaid, he thought this Vote excessive in amount. There were in St. Helena forty officers paid by the people of this country, to govern a population of 4,800 persons; and the collection of a revenue of 15,000 l. in that island cost 2,593 l., or about 17½ per cent. During the war this island was of great importance to the East India Company, and he thought that Company ought to pay the salaries and allowances of their retired officers.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that 7,219 l. be granted to defray the Expenses of the Settlement of Western Australia,
Mr. C. Bullersaid, the population of this Colony consisted of 3,476 persons, and these unhappy people were taxed, for local purposes, to the amount of 9,070 l, or nearly 3l. a head. He wished to know how that money was spent?
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, if the hon. and learned Gentleman had given notice of the question, he would have been prepared to answer it. There were numerous charges for colonial chaplains, colonial surgeons, and other purposes which were not included in the present estimate.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, a considerable sum had been expended in this Colony in the erection of public buildings.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that a sum of 3,171 l. be granted to defray the Expenses incurred at South Australia,
Mr. Hindleysaid, the Government had made an agreement with purchasers of land in this Colony, by which the money
1164
paid for land was to be applied to the promotion of emigration. A very extravagant outlay had been made by one of the Governors on public buildings; the late Government had refused to honour his bills; and a sum of 56,000 l. had been appropriated from the funds acquired by the sale of land to defray this outlay, instead of its being applied to the extension of emigration. He wished to know whether the Government intended to apply the sum which had thus been taken from the fund to purposes of emigration?
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, the agreement was that the fund derived from the sale of land should be liable, in the first instance, to meet any expenses necessary for the purposes of the Government; and that, if it was not so required, it should be applied to promote emigration. It was, undoubtedly, the intention of the Government to apply as large a proportion as possible of the money received for the sale of land to the promotion of emigration to South Australia.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that the sum of 329 l. be granted in aid of the charge of the Settlement at Port Essington,
Mr. C. Bullerasked whether there was any truth in the report, that it was the intention of the Government to establish convict Colonies in the northern part of New Holland?
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, there was no intention of establishing such a settlement at or near Port Essington. He could not say that such an establishment might not be formed in the north of New Holland, but nothing had yet been determined on the subject.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that the sum of 11,353 l. be granted for Expenses of the Ecclesiastical Establishment of the British North American Provinces to the 31st of May, 1846,
Mr. W. Williamsobjected to the Vote. He thought that the proposed amount was too much; besides this, he thought that the principle of paying the clergy by votes of this kind was most objectionable, especially in a Colony like Canada. He wished to know what had become of the proceeds of the hundreds of thousands of acres that had been reserved for the clergy, and which had been actually sold to defray some of the expenses of the Colony. Why, he wished to ask, had not

1165
the produce of those sales been applied to the payment of the clergy? He would divide the Committee upon the Vote.
Dr. Bowringobjected to the difference between the amount of salary paid to the Protestant and Roman Catholic bishops of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia.
Mr. Sheilobjected to the distinctions made between the salaries paid to the Roman Catholic and the Protestant bishops in the Colonies. In Newfoundland, for instance, the salary of the Roman Catholic bishop was only 75 l. a year, whilst the salary of the Protestant bishop in the same locality was so large as to afford a remarkable contrast. He thought that distinctions of this kind ought not to be so remarkably kept up in a Colony inhabited by a Roman Catholic population.
Mr. Hopesaid, that the sum paid to the Roman Catholic bishops in Canada was the subject of agreement with the Government, and must be continued during their lives.
Mr. Sheilsaid, that he only wished to call the attention of the House to the disparity between the payment to the Roman Catholic clergy and to the Protestant clergy. He thought that a distinction of this kind ought not to be made.
Viscount Sandonobserved, that the Protestant bishop of Newfoundland got nothing at all; and before they proposed any increase to the amount paid to the Roman Catholic bishop, they ought to be sure that he would receive it, seeing how much opposed the Roman Catholic hierarchy of Ireland were to any connexion with or payment by the State.
Mr. C. Bullersaid, that the Roman Catholic Church in Canada was richly endowed. The Catholic clergy in Canada were well provided for, and most comfortably situated. The Established Church was also well provided for. However, without wishing to deprive those establishments of their endowments, he should vote with the hon. Member for Coventry.
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, that the whole of these charges were for the lives of the individuals only.
Mr. C. Bullerobserved, that if so, if they were merely annuities payable to certain individuals, he would not oppose the Vote.
Viscount Sandonsaid, it would be an extremely improvident act to dispose of the clergy revenues at present, as suggested by the hon. Member for Coventry,
1166
inasmuch as they were of but little value. Let them first train the inhabitants of those provinces to habits of industry and civilization, by which means those lands might be rendered much more valuable; and then, if they pleased, dispose of them. But it would be a miserable and mistaken economy to do so at present.
Mr. Sheilobserved, that with regard to Lower Canada, there were no episcopal estates there. As yet, too, the Legislative Assembly of Lower Canada was undisturbed by religious dissensions, and he thought it would be very bad policy to introduce such dissension for the sake of so small a sum.
Dr. Bowringopposed the Vote.
Mr. Collettwished to ask, whether on the decease of the present Colonial bishops the charge would still be continued?
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, that the impression was that those charges would cease; but that impression depended only upon statements made in Parliament.
Mr. Williamsobserved, that the same assertion had been made in 1845, and yet that the Vote remained the same.
Mr. Hopesaid, that the Vote had been diminished.
The Committee divided.—Ayes 60: Noes 18; Majority 42.

List of the AYES.

Acland, T. D.

Hayes, Sir E.

Acton, Col.

Henley, J. W.

Barkly, H.

Herbert, rt. hon. S.

Baring, rt. hon. W. B.

Hope, J. W.

Blackburne, J. I.

Hotham, Lord

Borthwick, P.

Ingestre, Visct.

Bowles, Adm.

Jocelyn, Visct.

Broadley, H.

Jones, Capt.

Bruce, Lord E.

Lefroy, A.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Lincoln, Earl of

Cardwell, E.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Clerk, rt. hon. Sir G.

Masterman, J.

Clive, hon. R. H.

Meynell, Capt.

Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G.

Morgan, O.

Corry, rt. hn. H.

Nicholl, rt. hon. J.

Cripps, W.

Pakington, J. S.

Darby, G.

Palmer, G.

Denison, E. B.

Peel, rt. hn. Sir R.

Duncombe, hon. A.

Peel, J.

Estcourt, T. G. B.

Pringle, A.

Fitzroy, hon. H.

Sandon, Visct.

Fremantle, rt. hn. Sir T.

Scott, hon. F.

Gardener, J. D.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Gaskell, J. M.

Smith, rt. hn. T. B. C.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Somerset, Lord G.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Spooner, R.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Stuart, H.

Hamilton, G. A.

Tennent, J. E.

Hamilton, W. J.

Thesiger, Sir F.

1167

TELLERS.

Trotter, J.

Young, J.

Vesey, hon. T.

Baring, H.

List of the NOES.

Bouverie, hon. E. P.

Mitchell, T. A.

Bowring, Dr.

Morris, D.

Brotherton, J.

Plumridge, Capt.

Buller, C.

Protheroe, E.

Colebrooke, Sir T. E.

Sheridan, R. B.

Collett, J.

Wakley, T.

Duncan, G.

Wawn, J. T.

Dundas, Adm.

Fielden, J.

TELLERS.

Hawes, B.

Williams, W.

Hindley, C.

Crawford, W. S.

Vote agreed to.
On the Question that the sum of 18,895 l. be granted for the Indian Department in Canada,
Mr. Hindleyobjected to it, on the ground that the amount necessary for that department should be procured on the voluntary system.
Mr. C. Bullersaid, that his impression was, that if that sum were to be paid by the people of this country, the best thing that could be done with it would be to throw it into the sea at once, for he believed that money never was more scandalously applied. When he held office in Canada, he caused inquiries to be made into the management of these Indian settlements, and he found that there were not three real Indians in the whole of them, in Lower Canada. The people were a kind of half-caste, and were as dissolute, worthless, and idle a population as were to be found anywhere on the face of the globe. The largest item in the Vote was one of 14,157 l. for Indian presents, stores, &c., and be was aware that some importance was attached to those presents; but he was sure any one who was acquainted with the circumstances in which they were made would agree with him that they did a great deal more mischief than good. The Governor went up into the settlement, and he took care to give to the inhabitants nothing but what should be really useful, such as clothing, agricultural implements, and so on; but the fact was, that traders always went up also at the same time with the Governor, carrying with them brandy and tobacco, and articles of that description. The inhabitants, directly they received their presents from the Governor, exchanged them with the traders for the tobacco and brandy; and the consequence was, that
1168
the whole settlement invariably became the scene of the most licentious debauchery for the next fortnight or three weeks. He contended that there should be some inquiry as to the sums voted away for purposes of this nature. Upon such a subject no one could better advise the Government than Lord Metcalfe; and he hoped that before next year a report would be obtained from that noble Lord as to the utility of those presents.
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, that the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman had been anticipated. Inquiries were going forward, and he hoped, before next Session, information on the subject would be in the hands of Her Majesty's Government.
Mr. W. Williamsthought that those presents were completely thrown away. Many of the Indians were better off than our agricultural labourers at home.
Vote agreed to.
On the Question that 48,800 l. be granted for defraying the expenses of Stipendiary Justices in our West India Colonies,
Mr. Hawessaid, they were nearly useless. In his opinion, an annual report ought to be made, setting forth the nature and extent of the services which they performed.
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid a few words in support of the Vote, the purport of which it was impossible to catch in the gallery.
Mr. W. Williamssaid, that he so decidedly disapproved of the Vote, that he should divide the Committee on it.
The Committee divided.—Ayes 61: Noes 10; Majority 51.
On the Question that the sum of 80,000 l. be granted for the Expenses of the Establishment at Hong Kong, and the British Ports in China.
Mr. Hawessaid, he thought this was an immense sum to commence with at these establishments.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the expenses of living were very high at these places, and that in consequence of their reported insalubrity it had been found necessary to give increased salaries to induce persons to accept offices there.
Vote agreed to.
Chairman then reported progress. House resumed. Committee to sit again.

PHYSIC AND SURGERY BILL.
On the Order of the Day for going into Committee on the Physic and Surgery Bill,
Sir J. Grahamrose to state the alterations he proposed to make in this Bill. It was his intention to move that the House should go into Committee pro formâ, in order that his proposed Amendments might be printed, and it was his intention to proceed with the measure in the next Session of Parliament. The right hon. Baronet went on to state that it was his intention to adhere to his proposal to incorporate the general practitioners, and that in England there should, in all cases, be two examinations before the parties should be admitted as general practitioners. He also adhered to the provision which made the age at which the examination should commence twenty-two years. But, instead of the examination before a joint board of physicians and surgeons, he proposed that the first examination should be by a board of general practitioners, and that subsequently there should be an examination before a joint board of surgeons and physicians. Those who passed both examinations were then to be registered as general practitioners, and to become members of the College of Surgeons. He further proposed that the fees for examination by the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons should be raised, so as to pay the examiners properly, and provide for the museum and library, &c. of the College of Surgeons, to which the candidates would belong, viz. 5l. 5s. for the College of Physicians, 5l. 5s. for the College of Surgeons, and 10 l. 10 s. for the museum, library, and general expenses. He proposed also that the examinations in Scotland and Ireland by the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons should be kept distinct, in order to equalize the number of examinations for the license of the general practitioner in the three kingdoms. On removing from one kingdom to another, all classes of practitioners to be admitted members of the corresponding College in the kingdom to which they so remove, without further examination, but on payment of the same fees as if they had been originally examined and admitted members of that College. Army and naval surgeons and those intended to practise in the Colonies need be examined only by the Colleges of Physicians and Surgeons (besides the army and naval medical boards in the case of army and naval men); but he did not propose that they should thereby acquire the right of practising in England within five years, unless they had also
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passed the College of General Practitioners. Those who were now practising in England with Scotch or Irish diplomas as general practitioners, to be admitted to register as general practitioners without examination. He further proposed that the clauses relating to Universities should be struck out, and no restriction imposed either as to the time of residence necessary for granting degrees, or the assumption of the titles of graduation. With respect to the nomination of the members of the Council of Health, he proposed that the number should be reduced from nineteen to, at the highest, thirteen, including the Secretary of State; and that the Crown should have the right of nomination. Application had been made to him to advise the Crown to grant a supplementary charter to the College of Surgeons. That matter was now before the Crown, and arrangements had been made which, he believed, would induce him to advise Her Majesty to grant the supplementary charter.
Bill went through Committee pro formâ.
Mr. Wakleyvery much feared that the changes proposed by the right hon. Gentleman would not be satisfactory. The right hon. Gentleman had certainly taken great pains in reference to the subject, and the public were indebted to him for the services rendered them on this question; but, instead of simplifying his plan by the proposals he had now made, he (Mr. Wakley) was afraid that the additional number of examinations—the double examinations as to Scotland and Ireland—would not be satisfactory. The profession, however, would have an opportunity of considering the question during the recess, and he hoped that all parties would concur in bringing about a satisfactory conclusion to this very important, but extremely difficult question.
Bill as amended to be printed.
House adjourned at two o'clock.

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public—1a. Taxing Masters, Court of Chancery (Ireland); County Rates; Real Property (No. 3).
2a. Railways (Selling or Leasing); Bills of Exchange, etc.; Bonded Corn; Testamentary Disposition, etc.; Criminal Jurisdiction of Assistant Barristers (Ireland): Stamp Duties, etc.; Militia Pay; Land Revenue Act Amendment; Lunatics; Compensations.
Reported.—Poor Law Amendment (Scotland); Lunatic Asylums (Ireland); Drainage (Ireland); Highways.
3a. and passed: — Unclaimed Stock and Dividends; Spirits (Ireland); Excise Duties on Spirits (Channel Islands).
Private—1a. Leeds and Bradford Railway (Mistake Rectifying).
2a. Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway (Hastings, Rye, and Ashford Extension); Darby Court, Westminster.
Reported.—South Wales Railway; Monmouth and Hereford Railway; Glasgow Junction Railway; Guildford, Chichester, and Portsmouth Railway; Brighton and Chichester Railway (Portsmouth Extension); Direct London and Portsmouth Railway; Duddeston and Nechells Improvement; Erewash Valley Railway; Glasgow, Barrhead, and Neilston Direct Railway; Manchester and Leeds Railway.
3a. and passed:—Birmingham and Gloucester Extension Railway (Stoke Branch); London and South Western Railway; South Eastern Railway (Greenwich Extension); South Eastern Railway (Tunbridge to Tunbridge Wells); Gravesend and Rochester Railway; Rothwell Prison; Shrewsbury and Holyhead Road,
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Duke of Buckingham, from Clergy and others of Aylesbury, for Abolishing Punishment of Death.—By Bishop of Norwich, from Rotherfield, and several other places, for the Suppression of Intemperance, especially on the Sabbath.

DECEASED PEERS.
Lord Campbellsaid, that he should take the opportunity of calling the attention of the House to a subject of one of the Standing Orders, No. 113, with respect to which he had given notice. The Standing Order was to the effect, that any person presuming to publish the works, or life, or will, of any deceased Lord of Parliament, without the consent of the heir or executor of such Lord, should be deemed guilty of a breach of the privileges of that House. He should best discharge his duty on that occasion by referring to the history of the Standing Order. It took its origin from the proceedings of the well-known Edmund Curll—the infamous, the dauntless, the shameless Edmund Curll. In 1720 died John Sheffield, Duke of Buckingham, a celebrated poet of that day; and in 1722 Curll published an advertisement in a London paper, called the Daily Journal, in which he announced that he intended to publish a libellous life of the deceased nobleman. In consequence of this, the family of that nobleman interposed, and caused a complaint to be made to that House on the subject. He found this stated in the Journals of the House of the date of the 22nd January, 1721–22, and the advertisement was read, announcing that the Life and Works, in prose and verse, of John Sheffield, Duke of Buckingham, together with a true copy of his last will and testament, would be published on a certain day named by Edmund Curll, over against Catherine-street. This person was summoned to the bar of the House, and ordered to attend next day. The Journals for the next day stated that the House being informed that Curll was in attendance, he was called in and examined as to the advertisement, and was ordered to withdraw. The House then came to this Resolution, "That it is resolved by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, that any person presuming to publish the life, or will, of any deceased Peer, without the consent of his heir or executors, was
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guilty of a breach of the privileges of that House." Curll was then reprimanded by the Lord Chancellor for allowing the advertisement to be printed, and also forbidden to publish the work. In the course of the proceedings upon that occasion, a Committee was appointed; but he could not find that that Committee ever made any Report to the House, though he had made diligent search on the subject. On the 31st of January following, the matter was, however, again taken into consideration, and the Resolution was duly passed as a Standing Order. That was the Order now appearing on their Lordships' Books, and which had remained in force to this hour. He found that the Order was not intended to remain as a dead letter, for an attempt had been made to enforce it in the year 1735. In that year the same Edmund Curll issued another advertisement, which was published in the daily journals, and which gave great alarm to the Members of their Lordships' House. On the 12th day of May, 1735, this advertisement was brought under the notice of the House. It was published in the Daily Post Boy, and was to the effect that there had been just published Mr. Pope's literary correspondence for thirty years, namely, from 1704 to 1734, being a collection of letters written by him to the right hon. the Earl of Halifax, the right hon. the Earl of Burlington, and many others—printed for Edmund Curll, in Rose-street, and sold by all booksellers. It was ordered by the House that the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod should go and seize all the copies of the book, and that the said Edmund Curll, together with John Wilford, by whom the newspaper had been printed, do attend the bar of the House next day. The parties accordingly attended on the following day, and being examined, were ordered to withdraw. The Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod then reported to the House what he had done under their Lordships' order. He stated that he had ordered all the copies of the book found at Mr. Curll's house to be seized, and that he believed they might be 500 in number. A Committee was appointed, to whom the copy of the book presented by the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod was referred; and Edmund Curll was ordered to attend the Committee. The Earl Delawarr brought forward the Report of the Committee in the House, and it appeared from it that

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this was an illegal seizure, that no letters from any deceased Peer was contained in the publication, and that the Committee did not think it contrary to the Standing Order, and they therefore recommended that the books which had been seized, should be restored to Edmund Curll. The Report was read by the clerk attending the House, and agreed to, and the books were given back to the publisher. He was not aware that there had been any other seizure under this Standing Order, though there had been many lives of deceased Peers and of deceased Prelates, Members of their Lordships' House, published on various occasions, without the leave of the friends or representatives of the deceased parties. His noble and learned Friend, who, he regretted to perceive, was not then present (Lord Brougham), had published lives, powerfully and ably written, of several deceased Members of that House, more especially of Lord Chatham and Lord North, and he had no doubt without the consent of the heirs and representatives of those noblemen. He (Lord Campbell) had also employed many laborious hours, without, he hoped, incurring the censure of that House, in writing the lives of the predecessors of his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, both spiritual and temporal.
The Lord Chancellor: Not down to the present time, I hope.
Lord Campbellsaid, he hoped many years would pass before any one could have an opportunity of writing the life of the present Lord Chancellor as a deceased Peer. Curious enough it was, that the Standing Order did not apply to his noble and learned Friend, for any body might take such a liberty with him. The Standing Order did not apply to the life of any except a deceased Peer. In fact, it only followed the rule de mortuis nil nisi bonum. It must, if enforced, serve as an entire prohibition against writing the lives of some Chancellors. For instance, St. Swithin had been Lord Chancellor to King Ethelbert, and St. Thomas A'Becket was also Lord Chancellor of England, and who the heirs or personal representatives of these deceased Members of their Lordship's house might be, he had been unable to discover. Besides, he considered the Standing Order unnecessary, inasmuch as the law allowed an indictment to be laid for a libel reflecting on the memory
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of a deceased person, and a very remarkable action of that kind was tried in the early part of the reign of George II. He considered this Standing Order one having a strong tendency to bring into disrepute the necessary privileges of their Lordships' House, and he, therefore, begged to move that it be rescinded.
Motion agreed to.
Standing Order, No. 113, vacated.

COMMONS' ENCLOSURE BILL.
Lord Stanley, the House resolved itself into Committee.
On Clause 1 being read,
Lord Portmancomplained that under the clause, the entire control of the commons to be enclosed would be given to the First Commissioner of Woods and Forests; and when the Drainage Bill passed, the whole landed property of England would be under the control of the Government of the day. He thought, that either the Chairman of the Woods and Forests, or the other unpaid Commissioner, who was not named in the Bill, should be struck out, as he had no doubt but that the latter would also be immediately connected with the Government.
Lord Stanleysaid, the House of Commons had thought proper to send up the Bill with provision for only one paid Commissioner, and if but one unpaid Commissioner were appointed in addition, the two Commissioners would not be able to work as satisfactorily, in case of differences among themselves, as a Board consisting of three Members. These Commissioners would not have so much power as the noble Lord supposed. All they had to do was, in the event of a certain number of persons interested in the enclosure, making an application to them for the purpose, first to make inquiry, and they were then empowered to frame a scheme or draft bill of the enclosure. That scheme was to be referred to the parties interested in the inquiry, and unless these assented to the proposal of the Commissioners, then the whole matter fell to the ground. Even if the parties did assent, the subject should then come before Parliament. The main object of the Bill was to save expense, and he thought, under the circumstances, that some one of the Commissioners ought to be a responsible Minister, who would be answerable to Parliament for what was done.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses, up to Clause 11, agreed to.
On Clause 12 being read,
Lord Stanleymoved the omission from the clause of the words—
"That no royal forest, or any part thereof, shall be deemed common land under the provisions of this Bill,"
For the purpose of inserting the words—
"No part of the New Forest, in Hampshire, or of the Forest of Dean, shall, &c."
He proposed the alteration, because he understood there were forest lands in some parts of Wales that might be advantageously brought under the provisions of the Bill.
The clause as amended agreed to.
Clauses 13, 14, 16, 17, and 18, agreed to.
Clause 15 postponed.
Clause 19 was agreed to, after some discussion between Lord Stanley, Lord Portman, Lord Cottenham, Lord Lyndhurst, and Lord Camoys, as to the mode in which the interests of infants were to be represented in cases of enclosure.
Clauses 20 and 21 agreed to.
Clause 22 was postponed at the instance of Lord Campbell, as it was founded upon the supposition that the existing law had been violated.
The other clauses agreed to, with a few verbal Amendments.

POOR LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.
The Duke of Buccleuch, in moving that the House do now resolve itself into Committee, adverted to the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry on this subject, detailing the present state of the law and its administration. It was well known that the present provision for the relief of the poor in Scotland was very inadequate; an inadequacy not arising from any want of charitable disposition among the people, but from the defects of the machinery created for carrying out the law. In providing for the more effectual relief of the poor, it was not intended to alter the principle of the present law; the Bill was framed in accordance with the evidence taken before the Commissioners, and he believed was regarded with general favour in Scotland.
Lord Campbellallowed that there was in the Bill much that was good; but still thought it might be made better; he would, therefore, suggest that it should stand over, so that it might be improved
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during the recess. He admitted that the state of the Poor Law in Scotland was most objectionable, and, above all, that part of the law with reference to pauper and criminal lunatics. That most important portion of the Bill having reference to the medical relief of the poor, he greatly approved of. He was satisfied that it was for the interest of the poorer classes that there should not be too lavish a measure of relief for the destitute poor, for by so doing, a strong stimulus to exertion was removed. There were some persons who thought that every ill affecting humanity could be removed by the Legislature; but this was merely chimerical. To offer inducements to a young man and young woman, without any means, to marry at an early period of life, and to bring into the world as many children as their fecundity would furnish, was a principle which was most objectionable, and to which he never could give his assent. These early marriages had been productive of one of the evils under which Ireland suffered, and any checks to so great an evil must prove salutary. There were some of the clauses of the Bill which he was satisfied would give rise to considerable litigation, and would cause an enormous expenditure. Those parts of the measure having reference to the Law of Settlement were also open to objection. Some parts of the Bill, also, would fall rather heavily on English persons taking up a temporary residence in Scotland. Voluntary assessment formerly existed to a considerable extent in many parts of Scotland; but they might depend upon it, under the operation of this Bill, that they would be got rid of altogether. It might be held that all property liable to the Property Tax ought to be made liable to this tax also; but at present they had no rule whatever. The noble Duke was wrong in supposing that this Bill would not alter the existing law, as there were to be three new modes of assessment introduced under it, and there would be agitation and disunion produced in every parish in Scotland, in fixing on which particular mode they should select. One of the most gross instances of injustice which the Bill would inflict, would be in cases where Englishmen had a temporary residence in Scotland. In every such case, all the property which the individual possessed in any part of the world would be liable to assessment in the parish in which he resided. He trusted, therefore, that the Government would introduce some provision to guard

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against this injustice. Having stated these objections, he would not, for the present, detain their Lordships with any additional remarks. His principal objection was to the clauses regarding assessment. They were calculated to produce infinite litigation, and unless they were altered, it would, he thought, be much better to withdraw the Bill altogether, and to wait for another year before legislating on the subject. If persevered in as it at present stood, he had no difficulty in foretelling that the Bill would be hereafter called the curse of Scotland.
House in Committee.
Lord Campbellsaid, he had some Amendments to suggest as to the Assessment Clauses, and also respecting South Leith, which he would bring forward on the bringing up of the Report.
The Earl of Haddingtonwished to observe, in reference to what had fallen from the noble and learned Lord who had just sat down, that the principle of assessment to which he objected was the principle of the old law, and was also admitted in various local Acts. It had been tried for a long period, and he never heard of its having created any of the litigation or difficulty which the noble and learned Lord seemed to apprehend. He could not understand why any Scotchman who, as was sometimes the case, made a large fortune in England, should not be taxed when he returned to reside in his native country. Besides, he believed it did not happen that means and substance were rated in England.
Lord Campbellsaid, the noble Earl had entirely misunderstood him. He by no means objected to the principle of means and substance being taxed, as he believed it to be perfectly just and proper; but what he wanted was, that there should be a definition of the term given in the Bill.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, he did not understand the Bill to introduce any new principle in the law. The courts of Scotland would decide on the construction of the term means and substance, in accordance with their usual mode of proceeding; and if that was not thought sufficient, he should wish to hear the noble and learned Lord himself try his hand at a definition.
The Earl of Dalhousiesaid, the law existed in Scotland for 300 years, and, to his own knowledge, was constantly acted upon.
Bill reported without Amendment.
House adjourned.