Sitting of 12 February 1845

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN.—For Stamford, Right Hon. Sir George Clerk, Bart.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Christopher, from Solicitors of Alford, against the Stamp Duty on Attorneys' Certificates.—By Mr. W. Williams, from Gravesend, for Repeal of Window Duty.—By Sir H. Smyth, from Physicians and Surgeons of Colchester, and by Mr. S. Crawford, from Rochdale, against, and by Mr. Hastie, from Renfrew, and 9 other places, in favour of the Medical Practice Bill (1844).—By Mr. Hindley, from Peace Society, against Increase of Naval and Military Establishments.—By Mr. Aldam, from Kippax, and Newnham, and from Baptist Denomination of the Parish of Ystradgunlais, county of Brecon, for diminishing the number of Public Houses.

THE EARL OF MALMESBURY — THE DORCHESTER RAILWAY.
Captain Harrishoped he should be excused if he noticed some injurious rumours which had been spread relative to the part taken by a noble Relative, and by himself, with reference to the Dorchester and Southampton Railway.
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The insinuation that he and his noble Relative influenced the decisions of the Board of Trade appeared, no doubt, very ridiculous to Members of that House, but it might have some influence with the vulgar. The statement made by an hon. Member last night tended to strengthen these rumours; he hoped, therefore, he should be allowed to refute them by a plain recital of facts. About a year since the undertaking was commenced. The proposal for such a line was communicated to his noble Relative and himself, and both saw its great importance, not only in a local, but in a national point of view. As an Officer in Her Majesty's Service, he was anxious for such a line, not only as regarded the town which he represented, but also as a means of placing the defence of the country in a more efficient state. By having a line of railway along the coast, troops of cavalry might be easily brought from the baaracks at Christchurch to act in defence of Lymington, Poole, and Southampton. On such public grounds, he entered warmly into the support of this line. There was a preliminary meeting at Southampton in May. At that meeting, his noble Relative and himself attended. The second meeting was held in July, in Dorchester; and there was passed a resolution appointing a committee, and declaring that every member of it should hold 500 l. worth of shares. His noble Relative was exempted from this regulation, on the ground of his having charge of the line in the House of Lords. He himself had declined taking any shares. In the course of last autumn, several meetings were held at Christchurch, Lymington, and in other places. There was some objection to the line passing through the New Forest. He saw no more objection to a railroad than to a turnpike-road. On the Members for South Hants declining to promote the undertaking, his noble Relative undertook to hold the usual intercourse with the Board of Trade. He saw his noble Relative immediately after his interview with Lord Dalhousie, whom his noble Relative represented to have said, that he could not yet decide which line was the best, but that he should be guided only by what the public interest required. It was said in the debate last night that some time before the decision of the Board as to this line was announced, it was well known what it would be. Now, he must say, no such certainty was felt in the part of the country wheae he he lived; on the

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eontrary, the prevailing rumour of the day was unfavourable to the Southampton and Dorchester line. He thanked the House for the attention and indulgence with which they had received this explanation.

THE CANADIAN ELECTIONS.
Mr. Roebuckrose, according to his notice of the previous evening, to ask the Government a question relative to the late elections in Canada. It was one which he put with great reluctance, because the present system of Government could only be looked on as an experiment, and he was unwilling prematurely to express any opinion as to the proceedings which were going on. Circumstances had occurred, however, which now induced him to allude to the subject. During the last year Sir C. Metcalfe dissolved the Parliament of Canada. New elections took place, at which, particularly in Montreal, disturbances had occurred. A Petition had been presented to the Legislature of Canada, complaining of the legality of the election, and impugning the conduct of the Returning Officer, the Sheriff of Montreal. That subject was at the present moment under the consideration of the due and proper tribunals, and what he wanted to know was this—whether Her Majesty's Government had any peculiar circumstances to state or lay before the House, for the purpose of explaining the conduct that had been pursued on the part of the Colonial Secretary, with respect to the Returning Officer of the city of Montreal. He had been given to understand, and he wished to know whether such was the case, that, notwithstanding the complaints that had been made against the Returning Officer, the Secretary for the Colonies had advised that Her Majesty's thanks should be given to him. He wished to know whether the statements that had been made to him were true; namely, that the thanks of Her Majesty had been given to the Returning Officer of the city of Montreal at a time when his conduct was under the consideration of the proper tribunal—the House of Assembly? And if that question were answered in the affirmative, the next question he should wish to put would be, whether there would be any objection to lay before the House the despatch in which those thanks were conferred, so that the House might know the circumstances under which the Colonial Secretary had taken so extraordinary a step?
Mr. G. W. Hopesaid, that as the hon. and learned Member had not particularly addressed the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, perhaps he (Mr. Hope) might be permitted to answer the question. With reference to the Election Petition said to be pending, he knew nothing of it, as they (the Colonial Office) got no notice of the proceedings of the Canadian Assembly, except by the transmission of the journals at the termination of the Session, and the Executive did not interfere with these proceedings. What he did know he would state very shortly, and he should be quite ready to produce the papers required. It appeared, that previous to the election at Montreal, an application had been made by the opposition candidate, in which he stated that the stipendiary Magistrate thought it would be advantageous to commence polling under military protection. To this the Returning Officer would not consent, and in no case was military aid resorted to until all other means had failed, and it became absolutely necessary. It was true that preparations were made to prevent any disturbance taking place, large numbers of workmen being expected to interfere. They did come in, the military were in readiness, but they acted upon one occasion, and one only. With reference to these transactions, the stipendiary Magistrate's Report concluded by stating that every effort and arrangement had been made by Mr. Young, the Returning Officer, to secure order and free access to the poll for both parties, and that his efforts were so succesful, that though a disturbance ensued, not a single life was lost. He believed that the access was perfectly free on both sides, the only persons obstructed being the nonvoters from the surrounding districts. In consequence of this report, Sir C. Metcalfe, in his despatch, stated that the preservation of life and property at the election was attributable to the services of Mr. Young, and another gentleman, Captain Wetherall, whom he designated as a most valuable public servant. The Governor expressed his gratification that no life had been sacrificed, and stated that great credit was due to the troops and to the officers, and that, without their assistance, it would have been impossible for the voters to have exercised the franchise freely, in consequence of the intrusion of non-voters. On the receipt of that despatch, which had arrived before the Canadian Parliament had met, and before, therefore, it was pos-

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sible to ascertain what elections would be petitioned against, the noble Lord at the head of the Colonial Department had felt it his duty to transmit to the Governor of Canada a despatch conveying, not the thanks of Her Majesty, but his own expression of approbation of the conduct of Mr. Young and Captain Wetherall for the efforts which they had so successfully made for the preservation of the public peace; and he had desired that this expression of his approbation should be communicated to those gentlemen. There had been no thanks returned in the name of Her Majesty, and no statement had been made beyond the expression of the approbation of the Executive Government to the Executive Officers for their exertions.
Mr. Humethought the House ought to have before them the details of the circumstances which had led to the extraordinary changes which had recently taken place in the public mind in Canada. Great discontent now reigned in the Colony, and if they wished to preserve the Colonies in a state of usefulness to the country, they must govern them according to the wishes of the majority of their population. While Sir Charles Bagot was there unanimity and contentment reigned, but no sooner had a change of Ministry taken place than discontent arose. The Governor dismissed his Executive Council, and for nine months governed without one. This gave rise to dissatisfaction and discontent. Hence had arisen those scenes which had taken place at the elections; and it appeared to him to be necessary that all the documents connected with the subject should be laid before Parliament, so as to enable them to ascertain what had caused those sudden changes.

DESTRUCTION-OF THE PORTLAND VASE.
Mr. Christopherwished to put a question to his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government, which was suggested by the recent wanton destruction of the Portland Vase, at the British Museum. From the police reports of that morning, it appeared that the magistrates had no power to exact from the destroyer of that precious relic of ancient art a penalty higher than a floe of 5l., or to inflict a greater personal punishment than two months' imprisonment, with or without hard labour. He begged to call the attention of his right hon. Friend to this subject, and he wished his right hon. Friend to inform the House whether it was his intention, by legislation or other-
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wise, to take measures to prevent the recurrence of such an outrage.
Sir R. Peelsaid, the Trustees of the British Museum intended to hold a meeting on Saturday next for the purpose of considering this important subject; the result of that meeting would in all probability, be known to some communication on their part by Her Majesty's Government. He would, therefore, not express any opinion till that communication should be made, further than that the question was one of the deepest importance.

TRADE WITH BRAZIL.
Mr. Bouveriewished to ask the right hon. Baronet if it were true that a negotiation was on foot for a Commercial Treaty with the Brazilian Government? If such a negotiation had been entered into, it seemed absolutely certain that the Brazilian Government would insist on a reciprocity Treaty. The Treaty of 1827 was one of that nature, and there was an additional reason for assuming this as a probability amounting to certainty, because more than one-fifth of the export of that country consisted of sugar. Now, there could be no doubt, if the Brazilian Government insisted on a reciprocity Treaty with respect to that article of produce, no prospect remained of an agreement between Her Majesty's Government and the Brazilian, so long as that frivolous distinction was kept up in our Statute Book between free-labour and slave-labour sugar—a distinction which, as they had been forewarned from that side of the House last Session, had proved to be utterly so, inasmuch as the only sugar yet imported from a foreign State, under that law, had been slave-labour sugar from Venezuela, and the only sugar that was at present expected to come in any quantity, was the slave-labour sugar of New Orleans. That distinction, if they were to have a Treaty on the footing of reciprocity, must be abandoned. In expressing the hope that this would be done, he felt sure that he was expressing the hope of a very large portion of the country. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would, as he had done on former occasions, put his consistency in his pocket, and at once remove the inequality. He wished to know whether any negotiations were proceeding with respect to a Commercial Treaty?
Sir R. Peelwould answer the hon. Gentleman's question as to the case as it stood at present, and set aside speculations regarding the future. There was no ne-

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gotiation pending with the Brazilian Government, involving any alteration of the Tariff with respect to import duties. A proposal had been made to the Brazilian Government, which was now under consideration, in respect to one of the original Treates of commerce and navigation. That was the only one at present under consideration. He supposed the hon. Gentleman was aware of the nature of the Treaty referred to. It related merely to navigation; there was no treaty in progress with respect to the Tariff.
Mr. Ricardosaid, it had been generally understood, from the manner in which the change of the Sugar Duties was proposed last Session, that some further change would be introduced during the present. He thought the right hon. Baronet would put an end to a great deal of uncertainty if he would inform them whether that was his intention. He confessed he was very glad to hear that the negotiation with the Brazilian Government for a reciprocity Treaty was given up. All he heard about reciprocity treaties convinced him that the matter lay in a very narrow compass, and that our end would be much better attained without that expedient. It would be well for the right hon. Gentleman also to consider whether it would not be advantageous to give up those differential duties, which imposed a very formidable burden on the country without any counter-balancing benefit. He had thought that, on going into Committee of Supply, it would not be out of order for him to make some mention of those general principles by which he conceived their deliberations ought to be guided.
Mr. Gibsonwould merely express his hope that the right hon. Baronet would abandon all attempts at commercial treaties. It must strike everybody that with the countries with which the right hon. Baronet might negotiate as to import duties, even if treaties of this kind were desirable, they could not possibly be effected. The difficulty lay at home, and it would be far more satisfactory to the House, if the right hon. Gentleman were to tell them that commercial negociations were going on successfully with the Central Society for the Protection of British Agriculture, than it would be to hear of such being in progress with any foreign power. Unless you could induce the class interests to make the sacrifice, if it were a sacrifice, and to consent to a reduction of import duties on leading articles of consumption and food,
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it would be impossible to make those concessions to other countries which would induce them to make a reciprocity Treaty. He was glad his hon. Friend had put this question, which he did not think would anticipate the discussion of Friday next, for he very much feared that the adherence to differential duties, and the principle of protection, which prevented the right hon. Baronet from making a Treaty with Brazil, according to the account he had given of Mr. Ellis's negotiation, still continued. The House would recollect that Mr. Ellis was cut short in his attempt to negotiate, by being informed by the Brazilian Government that they would not consent to any larger advantage being given to British colonial sugar over foreign than 10 per cent. Mr. Ellis was prevented from opening his communications to the Brazilian Government, and now that that negotiation had come to an end, he should like to see laid before the House the instructions which Her Majesty's Government had given to Mr. Ellis.

FINANCIAL AND COMMERCIAL STATEMENT.
Lord John Russell: The right hon. Gentleman has given notice that on Friday next he will make to the House a statement of the utmost importance to the country—a statement not only as to the revenue and expenditure of the year, but comprehending also the questions that may arise respecting the trade and commerce of the country. Respecting the Resolution of which he has given notice, there may be more than two courses to be taken. Not only the Motion may be assented to in its present form, or dissented from, but, thirdly, an Amendment may be moved in the words of the present Resolution. Such being the case, and the whole circumstances being of so much importance, I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he proposes to take a Vote on the Resolution on Friday, or whether he proposes, after the statement being made in a Committee of Ways and Means, to call upon the House on a future day to decide upon his proposition.
Sir Robert Peel: Certainly, if it should be objected to that the House should concur with the proposal to be made on Friday, I shall not press for a decision. The noble Lord has put a right construction on my intention; and in endeavouring to explain to the House the views of the Government with respect to the financial state of the country, I shall also state their views

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generally with respect to the future commercial and financial policy of the country. Of coarse it will be of the utmost importance that the House should pronounce as early a decision as possible on any proposal I may have to make, and therefore I hope I shall not be pressed to interpose a very long delay between the proposal on Friday and the decision. If it is intended to take the sense of the House, I shall not press for a decision being come to on Friday.
Lord John Russell: I think it will be convenient to take the sense of the House on the Resolution of which the right hon. Baronet has given notice. I should be very glad to give notice of any intention of mine, but that will depend on the course to be taken by the right hon. Gentleman, and I hope I shall be acquitted of taking any persons by surprise in the course I shall take on that occasion. Such being the case, I hope the right hon. Baronet will consent that the Vote should not be taken on Friday, and that he will name some other day for that purpose.
Sir Robert Peel: I at once acquiesce in the proposal of the noble Lord. With respect to the period of Easter, I trust the House will feel the importance of proceeding with that business which may be proposed on Friday next with as little delay as possible. So far as Government is concerned, it will certainly be their duty to postpone the consideration of other business until the general views of the House with respect to the future policy of the country have been ascertained. But I have no hesitation in agreeing to the proposal of the noble Lord, that no Vote shall be taken on Friday next.

SUPPLY.
House in a Committee of Supply.
The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved a Resolution for a vote of 18,404,500 l. Exchequer Bills.
Mr. Humehoped that the laxity observable in the Exchequer Bill Officers on late occasions would be checked in future.
Mr. Williamssubmitted that, from the present abundance of money in the country, a reduction upon the interest of Exchequer Bills from 1½d. to 1¼d. per cent. per day might be made. He would venture to suggest that the Exchequer would benefit much by this reduction in the rate of interest. He threw out the observation in the hope that Government would adopt some measure for that purpose, and he was fully of opinion, that in the present
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state of the money market, that change might be effected with perfect ease.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the hon. Gentleman had now repeated the observations he had made on former occasions, and he was afraid he could now give the hon. Gentleman no more satisfaction than he had given him on those occasions. It should not be forgotten that there was a very great difference between sums lent for short periods at small rates of interest, and stuck, which might be considered as of a mere permanent character. Since the hon. Gentleman had last spoken on the subject, the premium had varied eight, nine, and ten shillings; and he ought not, therefore, to argue that because the premium was now high, it necessarily followed that the interest on Exchequer Bills could be reduced.
Mr. F. T. Baringwished to ask one or two questions of the right hon. Gentleman. He observed in the late balance sheet that the total charge of the funded debt was set down at 29,963,000 l., and he was anxious to know whether the sum of 1,309,000 l., which formed one of the items of this amount, was to be an annual charge? Next, in the charge of the funded debt in the present year, had any advantage arisen from the reduction of the Three-and-a-Half per Cents? Thirdly, was the opium compensation entirely paid, or was there to be any future charge? He was anxious to know what was the real balance sheet, on which they could depend in forming an opinion as to the course to be taken on Friday next, because the answers to these questions might make a very considerable difference in considering the possibility of taking off the Income Tax.
The Chancellor of the Exchequertrusted he should be able to give the right hon. Member satisfactory answers to his inquiries. The right hon. Member would be aware that when he proposed to effect a reduction in the interest of the Three-and-a-Half per Cents., he 'availed himself of the oportunity of obtaining powers to pay the interest in the various stocks at uniform periods, and in order to effect this, it became necessary to pay some of the interest before it became due. For instance, one stock paid interest half yearly, while others paid quarterly, and thus to make the time uniform, the interest, in one or two instances, was paid in October, when hitherto it was not paid till January, thus necessitating a charge of 1,300,000 l. It appeared, therefore, that in the account ending

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January, 1845, there was an increased payment for the national debt beyond that of any former period; but when they arrived at the statement to be made for April, there would be a reduction oroportioned to the payment previousl made. He hoped this answer would satisfy the hon. Gentleman so far as it concerned his first question. With respect to the second question, as to what benefit would be derived from the reduction in the Three-and-a-Half per Cents., the right hon. Gentleman would be aware that the Act directed the reduction should be made from October, 1844, but from the circumstances he had before stated, the benefit would not commence till January, 1845, and would be made apparent in the revenue returns of April ensuing. With respect to the third question relating to the opium compensation money, he might say that the whole had been paid. There was, however, a sum of 15,000 l. in dispute, and as yet unpaid, and that was the whole extent to which any future payments would be made in respect of compensation.
Resolution agreed to. Report to be received.
The House resumed, and adjourned at a quarter to six o'clock.