Sitting of 18 June 1844

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public—1a. Charitable Donations and Bequests for Roman Catholic Ministers in Ireland.
3a. and passed:—Slave Trade Treaties.
Private.—1a. Leeds Vicarage (Dr. Hook's).
2a. Southampton Improvement; Sheffield, Ashton-under-Lyne, and Manchester Railway (Ashton-under-Lyne and Staleybridge Branch); Canterbury Pavement; Manchester Stipendiary Magistrates; Manchester Bonding; Slamannan Railway; Eastern Union Railway; Ashton, Staleybridge, and Liverpool Junction Railway; Devaynes's Estate; Ladbroke's Estate.
Reported.—British Iron Company; South Devon Railway; Brighton, Lewes, and Hastings Railway; Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway; Garnkirk, Glasgow, and Coat-bridge Railway.
3a. and passed:—Salisbury Branch Railway; Nottingham (West Croft Canal) Improvement; Chester and Holyhead Railway.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Redesdale, from Hart-burn, for Protection to Agriculture.— From Stow, for the Adoption of Measures for more effectually Suppressing the Crime of Arson.

PARISH OF LEEDS.
Lord Wharncliffelaid on the Table a Bill
"To authorize the division of the Parish and Vicarage of Leeds, in the County of York, into several Parishes and Vicarages."
In moving that the Bill be read a first time, the noble Lord observed, that the measure was introduced at the instance of Dr. Hook, the Vicar of Leeds, who was most anxious to provide for the spiritual destitution of the inhabitants of that very populous district. The object of the Bill was in the highest degree praiseworthy; and, if their Lordships passed the measure, he was convinced that it would be extremely beneficial to that extensive district.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that being officially connected with this parish, and a he could not be present at the future
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stages of the Bill, he wished to make a few observations, in order to quiet some apprehensions that were felt with respect to the nature of this measure. The Bill originated in a petition from the Vicar of Leeds, which had been laid on their Lordships' Table. That petition having been referred to the proper authorities, they had reported that the proposition was one that ought to be entertained; and they recommended that their Lordships should agree to the prayer of the petition, and pass a measure for the division of the parish of Leeds into several parishes and vicarages. What was now sought to be done was entirely conformable to the ancient practice of the Church. The want of some such measure as that which was now before them, had long been felt. So long back as the year 1676, a proposition was made for dividing this parish, although the population did not amount to more than one-eighth of the present number. Dr. Hook, knowing to how great an extent spiritual destitution prevailed in this extensive parish, had taken advantage of the Act of last Session, which had for its object the providing of spiritual instruction for districts where the population was numerous and the means of instruction scanty. By that Act the Queen in Council was empowered to form new districts, which, as soon as a Church was erected, were to become parishes for spiritual purposes. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners were empowered to grant endowments to the Churches so erected, under certain conditions —amongst which were, that the nave of the Church should be free, and that a house should be provided in each district for the Minister. The Bill now before their Lordships, in conformity with this Act, proposed to empower the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to constitute the existing Churches in Leeds parish Churches, and by the 18th Section of the Bill, the nave or body of the Church, was to be free, and placed under the control of the ordinary and churchwardens, in conformity with the Ecclesiastical Law of the realm; a house of residence for the incumbent of each Church was to be provided; the incumbents of the several Churches would become vicars, and the districts annexed to the respective Churches, parishes, for spiritual purposes only. Dr. Hook, in proposing this alteration, had foregone power, patronage, and emolument—he was perfectly satisfied

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to make this great sacrifice, if he could only procure so desirable a boon for his parishioners—such disinterested conduct, he was sure, deserved, and would obtain, the highest praise and approbation. This division of the parish of Leeds involved a sacrifice, on the part of Dr. Hook of from 500 l. to 600 l. per annum, being almost one-half of his income, and the patronage often Churches. The poor would, under this Bill, have free access to the new Churches; and, as it was proposed that the parishes to be created, should correspond, as to population, with the accommodation provided in the respective Churches, no confusion or inconvenience could possibly arise. Some rights of property would inevitably be extinguished; but those of occupancy, as being subordinate to the superior title of the churchwardens, would, in the case of parishioners, be almost invariably retained. He had thus given a very brief outline of the measure; but he hoped it would satisfy their Lordships that the proposition was entirely in accordance with the ancient practice of the Church. The measure was, he conceived, eminently calculated to promote spiritual instruction amongst the poor, and to penetrate that dense mass of vice and infidelity which unfortunately was found in this very populous district. It would also, he hoped, have the effect of removing that difference of feeling between the higher and the lower orders which circumstances had too much occasioned in these quarters.
Bill read a first time.

SLAVE TRADE.
Lord Wharncliffemoved the third reading of the Slave Trade Treaties Bill.
The Earl of Mintosaid, he had no doubt that this Bill was a beneficial one, but he would take that opportunity to draw the attention of their Lordships to the present state of the Slave Trade in Cuba, and to the inefficient manner in which the Treaties for the suppression of that trade had been executed by Spain. During the regency of Espartero the Spanish Government took every possible means to put an end to the Slave Trade in Cuba. But, he understood, that since the change in the Spanish Government the Slave Trade had been revived to a very great extent; and the same fees had been established, for the benefit of the Governor of Cuba, on the importation of slaves, as
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had formerly existed. He believed that all the representations made on the subject by the British Government had been treated in the most unbecoming manner. He hoped the noble Earl would be able to declare that those statements had been exaggerated, or, at all events, that Her Majesty's Government had done all in their power to enforce the observance of the Treaty.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, it was unfortunately too true that a great increase had taken place in the Slave Trade at Cuba; and he was sorry to say, that there was little or no exaggeration in the statement of the noble Earl. At an early period of the last Session he had expressed a very sanguine hope that the Slave Trade would speedily cease in the island of Cuba, owing to the great exertions of the Captain-General Valdez, who then ruled there. But he should observe that General Valdez had gone far beyond the intentions expressed, and the instructions given by his own Government, in carrying the treaty into effect; for he believed that had the Governor of Cuba depended on the Government of Madrid that very little would have been done to check the Slave Trade. Before his recall he had done everything in his power to carry the Treaty with this country into effect. By his strenuous exertions the importation of slaves which had been carried on to the enormous extent of 40,000 annually, was diminished to 3,000, and, he was very sorry to own, that in the first month of the present year, as many slaves were imported as had been imported during the whole of the last year of the government of General Valdez. He believed the noble Earl was quite right in attributing this increase of the Slave Trade to the change of system in the Government of Madrid. He need not say that nothing would be wanting on the part of Her Majesty's Government to prevent the continuance of this traffic. He would, however, rather not at present enter into any particulars as to the steps that had been taken for that purpose; but he could not but hope that they would be attended with success. The noble Earl must be aware that all these treaties touching the Slave Trade had been but imperfectly executed by Foreign Powers. The noble Earl had only mentioned the case of Spain; but there was no doubt that the same observation might be made with respect to Brazil; for he was com-

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pletely certain, that from one end of that empire to the other, the provisions of those Treaties were set at nought. He hoped, however, that, before long, improvement in this respect would be effected, both in Brazil and Cuba, and, undoubtedly, Her Majesty's Ministers would not relax in their endeavours to cause those Treaties to be respected.
Bill read a third time and passed.

INCENDIARY FIRES.
The Earl of Stradbrokepresented a Petition from Stow, in Suffolk, expressing the feeling of the Petitioners respecting the late fires in that county, and stating, amongst other things, that those fires were not confined to hours of darkness, but that such was the boldness of the perpetrators, they sometimes selected the daylight, and even the hours of Divine Service, for the accomplishment of their wicked designs. The Petitioners prayed their Lordships to take the subject into their immediate consideration, and by the appointment of a Commission or otherwise to inquire into the cause or causes of the increasing evil. It was not his intention to speculate as to those causes which produced these fires; but he might perhaps be allowed to state, that as far as he could form an opinion from the evidence which had come before him, he was inclined to say that they had been committed either by children or by persons of dissolute character. They might proceed from various causes, but he was disposed to attribute them to the existence of a large and gradually increasing population, who, owing to deficiencies in the harvest, found it extremely difficult to obtain constant employment. What he wished to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to was, that under the Act for punishing persons guilty of these offences—guilty of setting fire to sheds in fields—there did not appear to be any adequate punishment. He believed it had been decided by the Judges that a Magisstrate could not send persons for trial, or render them liable to a punishment for felony, merely on account of fires of this description. An instance occurred in Stowmarket where the parties were arrested, but the Magistrates were obliged to discharge them, believing that they could not commit them to trial for a felony. Another point was this—that under the same Act the utmost punishment which could be inflicted for setting fire to stand-
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ing crops was transportation for seven years; and he was one of those who felt that that was not an adequate punishment for such an offence.
Lord Denmansaid, that there was a difference of opinion amongst the Judges as to the firing of outhouses being punishable as a felony. Some Judges had considered, without any doubt, that the burning of detached dwellings and outhouses was so punishable; but others were of opinion that an outhouse meant something near the dwelling. He would take the liberty of suggesting, since there was a doubt on the subject, that there would be no impropriety in introducing a measure to make the law clear, and to provide distinctly that the setting fire to outhouses fell within the crime of arson. He regretted to hear the noble Earl attribute those unfortunate and atrocious acts to some state of the population in general. According to the experience which he (Lord Denman) had an opportunity of forming throughout the country, he would not say that those fires were attributable to any general cause of the kind. In no one instance that came within his observation could he say that they were symptomatic of a general state of discontent. On the contrary, when there had been several fires in the calendar, and when the first impression respecting them had been that which the noble Earl had stated, he was surprised to find that each particular case was attributable and traceable to some particular cause, and to the want of feeling upon the part of some extraordinary mischievous, stupid, and ignorant person.
Lord Campbellagreed in what had fallen from his noble and learned Friend, and thought, that if the present state of the law was defective, it ought to be amended. He rejoiced that the noble Earl had not joined in the cry respecting the mitigation of the penal code in cases of arson. His (Lord Campbell's) belief was, that the mitigation of the severity of the law in this, as in other cases, had had a strong tendency to lessen the number of those offences.
Lord Wharncliffesaid, he would mention to the Secretary of State for the Home Department the suggestions which had been made, and which he was sure would receive his attentive consideration.
Petition laid upon the Table.
House adjourned to Friday.