Sitting of 17 July 1844

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN. — For Birmingham, Richard Spooner, Esq.
BILLS. Public.—1o. Clerk of the Crown in Chancery.
2o. Slaughtering Horses; Appeal in Criminal Cases; Lecturers and Parish Clerks; Criminal Justice (Middlesex); Loan Societies; Church Endowment.
Reported.—Field Gardens; Copyholds Enfranchisement; District Courts and Prisons; Party Processions (Ireland); Western Australia; Farm Buildings.
3o. and passed:—Trafalgar Square.
Private.—Reported.—Mackenzie's (Seatwell) Estate; Mackenzie's (Seaforth) Estate.
3o. and passed:—Gaspé Fishery and Coal Mining Company.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Brotherton, from Liverpool Peace Society, against armed interference with the Slave Trade.—By Mr. Duncan, from Dundee, for Improvement of the Town.—By Mr. S. O'Brien, from St. Columb Major, for Alteration of Poor Law.

POOR LAW.
House in Committee on the Poor Law Amendment Bill.
Clause 38, defining the powers and duties of the District Board.
Sir J. Grahamproposed an Amendment in page 18, line 13, after "Guardians," insert "and every such board for a school district shall appoint, with the consent of the Bishop of the diocese, at least one chaplain of the Established Church, as one of the paid officers aforesaid, who shall be empowered to superintend the religious instruction of all the infant poor being under the control of such District Board," was inserted.
Sir C. Napierwished to know what was to become of the Dissenters and Catholics?
Sir J. Grahamsaid, the whole of this Clause would be governed by the proviso at the end, which enacted, that at all reasonable hours of the day "any licensed minister of the religious persuasion professed by any adult inmate, or if the religious persuasion in which any child has been brought up, or in which the parents, or surviving parent, or next of kin, as the case may be, shall desire such child to be instructed, to visit the school or ayslum at the request of such adult inmate, for the purpose of affording to him religious assistance, or to visit such child for the purpose of instructing such child in the principles of his religion."
Mr. Hawessuggested that the words "lawful minister" should be substituted for "licensed minister," which was a term of doubtful construction.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he had taken the words from the Clause which regulated the admission of dissenting and Catholic
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clergymen into workhouses under the Poor Law Amendment Act. There was no difficulty whatever in the construction of the term "licensed minister," it was sufficiently comprehensive, and had been decided by high legal authority, and was so acted upon by the Commissioners, that licensed ministers included every minister recognised as a minister by the religious body to which he belonged, and having conformed to the law, and liable to no penalty for acting as a minister. If, however, on consideration, the hon. Gentleman did not think the words sufficiently comprehensive, he should be prepared to adopt any reasonable modification that might be suggested on bringing up the Report.
Clause amended to stand part of the Bill.
On Clause 45, "Children may be sent to district schools from parishes and unions not combined in the school district, but not distant more than twenty miles," being proposed,
Mr. S. O'Brienmoved an Amendment, pursuant to notice, that in line 12, after the words, "by virtue of this Act," these words be inserted, "provided always, and be it further enacted, that whenever it shall appear to the board of any district school that the space within such school is more than sufficient for the accommodation of poor children within the district for which such school shall have been built, it shall and may be lawful for such board to make order for the admission of so many other children residing in the said district as shall seem expedient; and the weekly provision for the maintenance and education of such children shall be fixed by the board at such rate as shall in their judgment be amply sufficient to cover every expense on account of such children."
Mr. Ferrandopposed the Amendment, on the ground that it would give the Commissioners control over the education of the whole poor of the country.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, the suggestion of his hon. Friend the Member for Northamptonshire was an important one, and the argument was rather in favour of its adoption. He was, however, inclined to allow the experiment to be tried, limiting it to pauper children, before they attempted to carry it a step further. It would be difficult to fix the precise charge for educating the children of the poor generally in

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these schools, because if a low rate of charge were fixed these schools would come into what he thought would be an unfair and injurious competition with the British and Foreign Schools and National Schools; and if it were fixed at a high rate it would be inoperative. Therefore, admitting that primâ facie there was much in its favour, still, on the whole, he did not consider it prudent to adopt the Amendment.
Mr. Wakleydid not see why, having given such extraordinary powers to the Commissioners in other things, they did not leave them some control in the matter of education. Give the children of the poor education, and he had no fears as to who had the control. He should move an Amendment in line six, after the word "board," to insert the words "subject to the approval of the Poor Law Commissioners."
Sir J. Grahamhad come down to the House full of anxiety as to the discussion on those Clauses relating to education and religious instruction. He was happy to say that the lone the discussion had taken had altogether removed that anxiety. The great object of all was to give to the poor the largest amount of education. Now, he would state what was his view of the matter. It was quite clear that these schools would be established only in populous districts, and to those districts alone in the main were they applicable, and though there were not so many schools in those districts as he could desire, still generally, there were schools already established. His fears were that the attractions of these district schools—the terms of which would be liberal—would bring them into direct competition with those other schools in the neighbourhood, many of which would cease to exist. And though you would improve the district schools by the extension proposed, still, as it would have the effect of shutting up other schools, he was of opinion that the Clause, limited, as it now was, would upon the whole, ensure the largest amount of education to the poor.
Mr. Hawesreferred to the education of the pauper children at Norwood, which, he said, was of a very superior kind. He did not think that the education afforded in the schools that would be discontinued, could be put in competition with that which would be given in these district schools. He was afraid that by the pro-
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viso the children of paupers would have a much better education than those of independent labourers, which was not at all desirable. But as this question was one of great importance, it might, he thought, be well to postpone it until the Report.
Proviso withdrawn.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses to 54 inclusive, agreed to.
House resumed. Committee to sit again.

FIELD GARDENS.
Mr. Cowperhaving moved the Order of the Day for the Committee on the Field Gardens Bill,
Sir J. Grahamsaid, he thought there could be but little hope of this Bill passing into a law during the present Session. If that should also be the opinion of the hon. Gentleman, he would then suggest to him that the better course would be to go into Committee on the Bill pro formâ, either then or next Wednesday, for the purpose of making such alterations in its detail as the hon. Member might on further consideration, or on communications he had received from persons in the country, think it necessary to introduce, and that it should be then printed as amended, and circulated during the recess, in order that the House might be in a condition to consider the subject with advantage in the next Session of Parliament. He had consented to the second reading of the Bill, fully approving of its principle, but with every wish for the success of the measure, he thought that the course he has now suggested would be most conducive to that end.
Mr. Cowpercould not but feel much gratified at the manner in which this Bill had been received by the right hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) and the House, and concurred with the right hon. Baronet that it was not likely at so late a period of the Session he could engage the attention of the House to its clauses, so as to have them amended, and placed in that state he should desire to see them before they passed into law. He did not entertain any expectation of passing the Bill during the present year, nor was it his intention to attempt to pass it. He would adopt most willingly the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet, and would now move that the House resolve itself into Committee pro formâ on the Bill, in order that they might have an opportunity of making

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some verbal alterations, and then postpone the measure until another Session.
Bill passed pro formâ through Committee.

METROPOLITAN BUILDINGS.
House in Committee on the Metropolitan Buildings Bill.
On Schedule B,
Mr. Hawessaid, he was astonished to find the Bill so far advanced at half-past six o'clock. He thought it would have been no great stretch of courtesy, under the circumstances, if the noble Lord had postponed the Bill. He had intended to propose several Amendments in some of the Clauses, which he had been deprived of the opportunity of doing; but he should feel it his duty to bring them forward on the Report, and to recommend them to the attention of the House. He felt that the Bill had been smuggled through the House without that fair and proper consideration which was due to a measure affecting so great a mass of property; but he hoped that in the other House of Parliament there were parties who had a better feeling of what was demanded by the magnitude of the interests at stake. Yes, thank God, there was a House of Lords, and he did not despair that the Bill would there receive more attention.
Schedule agreed to.
On Schedule C, Section 2,
Mr. Hawesmoved to substitute the words "district surveyor," instead of "official referees."
The Committee divided on the question that the words "official referees" stand part of the Clause:—Ayes 25; Noes 10: Majority 15.

List of the AYES.

Acland, T. D.

Hodgson, R.

Baring, hon. W. B.

Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.

Boldero, H. G.

Lincoln, Earl of

Buckley, E.

Lockhart, W.

Christopher, R. A.

Marsham, Visct.

Clerk, Sir G.

O'Brien, A. S.

Colvile, C. R.

Palmer, G.

Cripps, W.

Polhill, F.

Darby, G.

Somerset, Lord G.

Eliot Lord

Spooner, R.

Goulburn, rt. hn. H.

Sutton, hn. H. M.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

TELLERS.

Henley, J. W.

Young, J.

Herbert, hon. S.

Pringle, A.

List of the NOES.

Brotherton, J.

Fleetwood, Sir P. H.

Busfield, W.

Humphrey, Mr. Ald.

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Mitchell, T. A.

Wawn, J. T.

Muntz, G. F.

TELLERS.

O'Connell, M. J.

Hawes, B.

Scott, R.

Tufnell, H.

On the Motion that the Schedule stand part of the Bill,
Mr. Hawessaid, he would take the sense of the House against it.
The Committee divided on the question that Schedule C stand part of the Bill:—Ayes 29: Noes 5: Majority 24.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Henley, J. W.

Baring, hon. W. B.

Herbert, hon. S.

Boldero, H. G.

Hodgson, R.

Brotherton, J.

Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E.

Buckley, E.

Lincoln, Earl of

Busfeild, W.

Lockhart, W.

Christopher, R. A.

Marsham, Visct.

Clerk, Sir G.

O'Brien, A. S.

Colvile, C. R.

Palmer, G.

Cripps, W.

Polhill, F.

Darby, G.

Somerset, Lord G.

Duncombe, T.

Spooner, R.

Eliot, Lord

Sutton, hon. H. M.

Fleetwood, Sir P. H.

TELLERS.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Young, J.

Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.

Pringle, A.

List of the NOES.

Browne, R. D.

Wawn, J. T.

Mitchell, T. A.

TELLERS.

Muntz, G. F.

Hawes, B.

Scott, R.

Humphery, Ald.

Whereupon Mr. Greene left the Chair and Mr. Speaker having resumed the Chair, Mr. Greene reported, that it appeared on a division in the Committee, that only thirty-nine Members were present; upon which Mr. Speaker counted the House, and forty Members being present, the House again went into Committee on the Metropolitan Buildings Bill.
The Schedules were agreed to.
The House resumed. Bill to be reported.
House adjourned at a quarter-past ten o'clock.