Sitting of 11 May 1843

Preamble
MINUTES]. BILLS. Private.—2a- Lough Foyle Drainage. Reported. — Edinburgh Water; Glasgow, Paisley, and Greenock Railway; Merthyr Tidvil Stipendiary Magistrates.—Thames Lastage and Ballastage; Glasgow Marine Insurance Company; Haddenham Inclosure; Scarborough Harbour; Drumpeller Railway; Southampton Docks.
3"a—and passed:—Faversham Navigation.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Sir J. Walsh, from Marylebone, and St. James's, Westminster, against the Vestries Act—By Mr. Busfield, from Bradford, against the Turnpike Roads Bill.—By Sir W. Codrington, from Northleach, against the Poor Law Amendment Act.—By Mr. Ferrand, from Bridgewater, and Manchester, for reducing the Hours of Labour in Factories,—By Dr. Bowring, from the Isle of Man, against the additional Duty levied upon Goods Imported into that Island.—By Captain Hatton, from Enniseorthy, against the Irish Poor Law.—By Messrs. Cobden, Scholefield, Brotherton, and G. W. Wood, Colonel Anson, Sir W. Clay, and Dr. Bowring, from a number of places, for the Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn Laws.—By Messrs. C. Berkeley, J. H. Lowther, Busfield, B. Wood, Sir C Colebrooke, and Dr. Bowring, from a number of places, against the Factories Bill. — By Mr. Allix, from several places, against the Canada Com Bill.—From York, against the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill—From Londonderry, against trans ferring the Mail Coach Contract to Scotland.—From St. Leonard's Shoreditch, for placing that Parish into Schedules A. and B. in the Health of Towns Bill.

MISSION TO ABYSSINIA.
Dr. Bowringsaid, that some months ago a mission had left Egypt for the court of Shoa, for the purpose of entering into negotiations with the Government there, the object of which was to facilitate the intercourse of British subjects with, and the introduction of British produce into that country. What he wished to know was, whether the object of the commission had been accomplished?
Sir R. Peelsaid, that the mission to
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which the hon. Member referred, had left Shoa and returned to Egypt. The accounts which the Government had received from Captain Harris were to this effect. Some months since Captain Harris sent over to this country, through the government of Bombay, stating that he had entered into conditional engagements with the king of Shoa respecting the uninterrupted admission of goods and merchandise, the produce of this country, into the territories of the king of Shoa, and he wished to know whether there was any objections on the part of the British Government to ratify the treaty. The treaty also provided for a free intercourse between her Majesty's subjects and the inhabitants of the country. In answer to that communication, her Majesty's Government had stated, that they had no objection to the ratification of the treaty. Captain Harris had been put in possession of this opinion some time since. The Government had every reason to hope, that ere this the treaty had been consented to by the king of Shoa, and that there was now no opposition to the free admission of British goods into Abyssinia, but he had as yet received no information as to the ratification of the treaty.
Dr. Bowring:Has any account been received of Captain Harris having left Shoa?
Sir R. Peel:Yes.

ROMAN CATHOLIC OATHS.
Mr. Ross(adverting to a suggestion made by Sir R. Peel, that hon. Members who had notices of motion on the paper should give way, in order to allow the adjourned debate on the Corn-laws to be resumed), said, that he would propose a course by which much time might be saved, and his object gained. He would propose, that the House should give him leave to lay his bill on the Table, and let the discussion be taken on the second reading. The hon. Member then proceeded to move for leave to bring in a bill for the release of her Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects in Ireland from obligation to take and subscribe the oath prescribed by the act 10 George 4th, commonly called the " Catholic oath." He said the oath was found to be productive of much delay, annoyance, and injustice during the progress of elections in Ireland, opposing parties being in the habit of demanding that voters should produce a certifi-

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cate that they had taken the oath, or that they would take it before a magistrate prior to their being polled. The hon. Member for Oxford seemed to think that the oath was one of the securities of the Protestant Church in Ireland, but it was scarcely worthy of being regarded in so important a light; and no wise man who had witnessed the course of elections in that country, and the injuries, and unfriendly classification of the electors, of which it was the cause, would deny that it was a serious grievance and ought to be dispensed with.
Mr T. B. C. Smith(Attorney-General for Ireland) said, that although the Government could not be considered bound by the decision of a committee, there were two cases, the Cork and Car-low election petitions, in which it had been decided, that by the provisions of the Reform Act the oath wag unnecessary, and that fact of itself might be considered a sufficient justification of the hon. Member in his attempt to introduce this bill. He should not oppose the motion, but reserve to himself the right of giving his opinion upon it hereafter, when he had taken its several clauses into his consideration.
Sir H. W. Barronsaid, he had witnessed the vexatious use to which the oath had been turned at elections in Ireland. He had known agents to make opposition to every man who had not or could not be proved at the moment to have taken that oath.
Mr. Sheilobserved, that there could be no doubt of the oath having been made the instrument of annoyance and delay to serve the purpose of the objectors, and might he used by Roman Catholic candidates, as it had been used by Protestant candidates. Sometimes magistrates had been induced to keep out of the way for three or four hours, during which time not a single Roman Catholic elector was permitted to vote.
Leave given.

WILLIAM JONES AND BARON GURNEY.
Mr. T. Duncombe rose,in accordance with his notice, to call the attention of the House to the petition of William Jones, a prisoner in the Leicester county gaol, complaining of the conduct of Baron Gurney during his trial at the late Leicester assizes, and to move that an humble address be presented to her Majesty,
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praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into her merciful consideration the case of the petitioner. He was glad that the relative of the learded judge (the hon. Member for Lambeth) was present, now that he was about to bring under the notice of the House a case which, being the subject of a petition to the House, and praying for the redress of a grievance, ought not to be postponed from time to time. The petitioner made two complaints. He had presented a petition to the House, in which he set forth the following facts:—
"That your petitioner is now a prisoner in the borough gaol of Leicester, to which place of confinement he was sentenced for six months at the last assizes held before Baron Gurney. That your petitioner having been arraigned on a charge of uttering a seditious speech tending to excite the people against the police force and the array, could have shown to the jury that the charge was false, but was interrupted, as your petitioner believes, most unconstitutionally, by his judge, and was thus prevented from establishing his innocence. That under these circumstances, which your petitioner conceives to be a violation of the sacred right of trial by jury, inasmuch as he was prevented from making a successful appeal to his jurors, your petitioner humbly entreats your honourable House to take measures for securing him a legal and constitutional trial. That your petitioner feels the more urgent in his desire to be dealt with according to the constitutional customs he has ever been taught to hold sacred, inasmuch as he has been appointed by Baron Gurney to the second class of misdemeanants, and is only allowed a very restricted and meagre diet, which he feels to be unequal to the support of health. Your petitioner, therefore, prays for the immediate attention of your honourable House to his case."
It was a maxim of the law, that the House ought to act as counsel to an undefended prisoner. That maxim had been strikingly enforced by Lord Chief Justice Heath, on the trial of Lilburne, for high treason, in 1649. Lilburne being undefended, Chief Justice Heath said:—
" It is true I am a judge made by my sovereign, yet it is known, by the known laws of this land, my duty to be indifferent and free from partiality betwixt my master and you the prisoner, and I am specially bound to it by my oath. You shall have, therefore, the utmost privileges of the law of England, which is a law of mercy. It is also the duty of a judge, by law, to be of counsel with the prisoner, wherein, by his ignorance, he falls short of making use of the benefit of the law, and to exhort him if he perceive him daunted or amazed by the presence of the court. Yea, it

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is my duty to carry myself with all fairness and evenness of hand towards you, to rectify you; it is my duty to help you, and not to use any boisterous or rough language to put you in fear; and according to the laws of England this is my duty, and this is the law."
Now, the question was, whether Jones was daunted and amazed by the rough and boisterous language which Baron Gurney addressed to him. From the inquiries which he had made, it did not appear that the reports in the newspapers were fully borne out by the facts of the case; but he could produce respectable men who were able to prove that the judge did use hasty and intemperate expressions during the trial. Jones had used every means to obtain redress or a mitigation of his punishment, before coming to make his case known to the House of Commons. The opinion of a learned Member of the House—the hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Bodkin)—had been taken as to whether a new trial might be moved for, on the ground that the prisoner had been improperly dealt with by the learned judge. The learned Gentleman stated it as his opinion that a new trial could not be moved for on the ground of the alleged misconduct of the judge, and that the law had not provided any means of reviewing it; but that the only course in such cases was to apply to the Crown for a pardon, which, if it were manifest that injustice had been done, would never be refused. Applications for a remission of the sentence had, accordingly, been made to the Crown; but those applications had not been attended with success. Mr. Roberts, a solicitor, had made application to the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department, but no notice had been taken of his letter. He would now bring before the House some of the passages in Baron Gurney's conduct, of which Jones complained. It could be proved, not only by the evidence of Bairstow and Marshall, but of others, that the prisoner was daunted and intimidated, and that he was not allowed to make those statements which he believed would establish his innocence. It appeared, that during the cross-examination of Thomas Agar, a sergeant of police, the judge interrupted the defendant with some warmth upon his asking the question—" Did you think yourself morally justified?"—or rather part of a question, for he got no further, the judge interrupt-
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ing with—" Stop, stop; what have we to do with that?" Well, the defendant said —" My Lord, I think," but the judge immediately stopped him again, saying— " You may think what you please, but we'll have no such nonsense as that about ' morally justified' here." The policeman went on with his evidence, in cross-examination by the defendant and said,
" The people were orderly. He meant by that there was no actual breach of the peace; there was no disturbance, but the people were elevated. Meant by elevated, that they were wrought upon by your expressions. There was injury done to the policeman before you came, and not since."
As soon as the witness said that, the judge again interrupted—
" Why, they took you up, you see; that's the way they quieted you. If you turn a dog down the street, and cry out ' Mad dog.' there's no need to tell the people to knock him on the head. There's no occasion for it, it is not necessary, they will do it without."
The learned judge stated that. [Mr. Hawes: " Hear."] His hon. Friend was not present nor would he find that statement upon the judge's notes; but it could be proved by several respectable persons who were present at the trial, and the reports of different newspapers concurred in giving the same account of it. No one, he thought, could say, that that was an observation calculated to assist the prisoner. Then, it appeared that Jones, in the course of his speech, admitted to the Court that on some former occasion he had called the Government " a tyrannical Government." Upon this, Mr. Baron Gurney stopped him, and said, in a rough manner,
" Then you have done wrong; you had no right to say anything of the sort. We know nothing of you here except what is charged against you; and there is no need that you should give yourself a bad character."
So this judge laid it down, that to call a Government " tyrannical" was to commit, a crime against the law. Why, if that were the case, there was at once an end to all freedom of discussion. When Gentlemen opposite were out of office, what, let him ask, did they say of the Government then in power? Did they mince the matter after this fashion? Did they hesitate to call the Whigs " tyrannical," or anything else that it came into their heads to call them? Why, there was no vituperative epithet in the English

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language that they were not accustomed to apply, not only, to the Government, but to the Queen herself, and yet there was this mere boy (he was under twenty years of age when he was put on his trial) —here was this Jones assailed by a judge for frankly admitting the use of a term which that same judge had never thought of reprehending when it came from the mouth of a Member of Parliament. With respect to Baron Gurney's summing-up, too, exceptions had been taken by many impartial persons who were present at the time. One of the papers said,
" Mr. Baron Gurney then proceeded to sum up the evidence, and expressed his opinion of the case in no very equivocal terms."
Of course he was unable to judge of the judge's manner, but with regard to the matter of his charge, he was bound in candour to admit, that after reading the short-hand writer's notes, he had no very great fault to find with it. He did complain, however, of the intemperate and hasty expressions of the judge—expressions by which, as the prisoner said in his petition,
"He was so cowed that he was unable to proceed with his address, (and of which he also complained, and very fairly,) that the judge so narrowed his path that he really knew not where to put his foot."
If all this were proved, and he (Mr. Duncombe) unhesitatingly averred that every word of it could be proved, that he must say that this judge had not acted up to the maxim of Chief Justice Heath, " that the bench should assist the prisoner." But this was not all; the more grievous part was to come. The prisoner, after the judge's charge, was found guilty by the jury, whose verdict ran in these terms:—
" We find the prisoner guilty of using the language imputed to him, but we are of opinion that he used it whilst labouring under great excitement."
After such a verdict as this,—looking, too, at the circumstances of the trial, the prisoner's complaint of interruption by the judge, and his averment that several jurors, whom he could not challenge, were prejudiced against him,—after such a verdict, and under such circumstances, he must say, that the sentence passed on the prisoner by Baron Gurney was an exceedingly harsh and severe sentence. Before he passed such a sentence Baron Gurney
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might surely have called to mind those good old days of Jacobinism, when he himself did not hesitate to call Governments " tyrannical;" when it was said of him by a celebrated wit " that he succeeded so well at the bar because he did so much business in sedition." Mr. Baron Gurney had made himself by defending what he would now call seditious libels. He was the bosom friend of the Rev. Jeremiah Joyce, who was tried for high treason—he defended the members of the Corresponding Society of 1793 —he was—[Mr. Hawes: Don't, don't.]—why, I'm telling the hon. Member facts which he is not aware of, and which are more to the credit of his relative than anything he has ever done since he was the man who publicly desired to " meet the fate of Hampden, who died in the field, or of Russell, who suffered on the scaffold"—who in earlier years baptized his own sons by the names of Sidney, of Russell, and of Hampden, and who yet in the year last past could find no palliation, no apology, no excuse for the somewhat intemperate zeal of " this misguided boy." To six months' imprisonment was this young man consigned; and all that could be said of such a sentence was, that it frustrated its own object by engaging for the prisoner the sympathy rather than the reprobation of the public. But there was something behind even more rigorous than the sentence. The House would remember that in Lovell and Collins's case her Majesty's Government gave it to be understood that political offenders should not be made the gaol associates of men convicted of atrocious crimes. Gaol prisoners, it was said, were to be divided into two classes, of whom the political offenders were to occupy the first. Now, Jones complained that he was not so placed—that the judge had put him among the second class of public offenders, that he was only allowed to see his friends once in two months, and that his only allowance on which to support life was 1lb. of bread, a pint of porridge, and the same quantity of soup or gruel per diem. Now, when the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Nottingham was in Newgate there were no such restrictions upon him. He was allowed to supply himself with any food he thought proper, to read what books he liked, to see his friends within the prison, and to correspond with whom he pleased beyond the walls. Not so with Jones; he was subjected, under Mr. Baron Gurney, to a

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system of absolute bodily, to say nothing of mental, torture; and that, too, for a crime which was considered almost venial —the crime of making a silly and imprudent speech. And now, doubtless, whilst Jones was suffering all this, the learned Attorney-general would get up in his place and say, " Oh, he has his redress; let us leave him to seek it by the law." The learned Attorney-general little understood bow rarely the poor man could find the means of putting fees in the pockets of the lawyers. If Jones could have employed counsel at his trial—if he could have engaged in his cause the eloquence, the skill, and the legal knowledge of his learned Friend beside him (Serjeant Murphy)—it would have been impossible for Mr. Baron Gurney to interrupt the reply, and it would have been improbable that he should now have to appeal in the prisoner's behalf. But in this case even the Attorney-general's constant rejoinder to a case of this kind could scarcely be considered applicable. Jones had tried all the means open to him to obtain redress. He had obtained counsel's opinion; he had appealed to the Tight hon. Baronet—who, by the way, had probably not read his letter, for it had been three weeks at the Home-office unanswered,—and having tried such means and found them ineffectual, it could scarcely now be said that he was pursuing a wrong course in appealing to that House. A common argument was, that an address of this kind was interfering with the prerogative of the Crown. He (Mr. Duncombe), however, would maintain that the House possessed and ought to exert the power of advising her Majesty in the exercise of her Royal prerogative. In Hunt's case, when the same point was mooted, it would be remembered that the present Lord Chief Justice voted for the address. In the case which he (Mr. Duncombe) had the honour of bringing before the House in 1840, it would be also recollected that the motion was only lost by the Speaker's casting vote. Possibly on this occasion he might be left in a minority, but whether he was or not it was at least the duty of the Government to consider the facts, and if good cause of complaint existed, to apply to the Crown for that free pardon which, where injustice was committed, was said never to be refused. The hon. Member concluded by moving that an humble address be presented to her Majesty humbly praying that her Majesty will be gra-
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ciously pleased to take into her Majesty's merciful consideration the case of William Jones, confined in her Majesty's gaol at Leicester.
Mr. S. Crawfordhaving seconded the motion,
Sir James Grahamsaid, he rose, in the strict discharge of a public duty, to answer an accusation made by the hon. Member for Finsbury, which was immediately connected with that important subject, the administration of justice. He spoke correctly when he said that on the present occasion he was acting strictly in the discharge of a public duty; because, although he entertained the highest respect for the public character of the learned judge whose conduct had been alluded to, he had not the honour of more than a casual acquaintance with him. Upon this occasion the hon. Member for Finsbury appeared once more before the House labouring in his usual vocation—he having, as it were, adopted the character of public prosecutor of the judges. The hon. Member being self-constituted censor of vituperative language, it would become him to be a little more guarded as to the expressions which he applied to venerable judges on the bench—men of the highest reputation, whose fair fame had remained unsullied up to the evening of their life. He knew the hon. Member for Finsbury so well that he was sure, if the hon. Member bestowed a moment's reflection on the matter, that not even the consciousness of acting in the discharge of a public duty could compensate for inflicting upon persons of such high character and occupying so eminent a position needless pain by the use of unguarded expressions. He complained of nothing which the hon. Member had said respecting the public conduct of Mr. Baron Gurney, and, leaving his many friends and relatives to defend any part of his private character which they might believe to have been assailed, he would merely, in passing, express his regret that the hon. Member had considered it necessary to refer to Baron Gurney's political opinions in early life. Now, with respect to the public conduct of Baron Gurney, he could assure the hon. Member and the House, that he did not neglect to make inquiry respecting the language and conduct attributed in the public journals to that learned person. As soon as he was acquainted with what was alleged to have occurred, he addressed a letter to Baron Gurney, requesting to be

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informed by him of what had actually taken place, and he would state the substance of the learned judge's reply. The hon. Member had spoken of his (Sir James Graham) having neglected to reply to a letter addressed to him by a Mr. Roberts, whom he designated as a solicitor. It might be true that that person was a solicitor, but he was something more. This Mr. Roberts was convicted of seditious conspiracy at the Salisbury Spring Assizes in 1840, and sentenced to three years' imprisonment. He (Sir James Graham) did not feel called upon in his official capacity to take any notice of a communication from such a person, couched, as it was, in very strong language, and reflecting on the character of a judge. From the manner in which the hon. Member had spoken, the House might be disposed to infer that he (Sir James Graham) had taken no notice whatever of the complaints which had been preferred on the part of Wm. Jones; but that was not the fact. The hon. Member himself brought Jones's case under his consideration, and the hon. Member would do him the justice to recollect that he paid immediate attention to his letter and answered it fully. The hon. Member had spoken of Jones as a youth, and said that his conduct arose out of great excitement- Jones was 22 years of age, and perhaps the House would permit him to state what were the circumstances under which his offence was committed. It was committed in August last, during the period of the insurrectionary movement in the north of England, when the greatest excitement prevailed throughout the manufacturing districts. The disturbances extended to the town of Leicester, and the police were interrupted in the discharge of their duty, and assaulted by large mobs. In consequence of these disturbances application was made for military assistance, and the yeomanry were called out and even quartered in the town of Leicester for the period of twelve days.
The prisoner, under the pretext of preaching a sermon, assembled a tumultuous meeting in the Market-place of the town of Leicester, and upon that occasion he addressed to the multitude a most seditious harangue: language of a most violent and exciting character was used. The police force was subjected to the most scurrilous abuse. A violent tirade was uttered against the yeomanry, who had beep called upon duty to preserve the, public peace. The army was called a body
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of hired assassins; the police were designated vampires, and the yeomanry were styled trained assassins. These facts were proved in court beyond the possibility of a doubt. He would now address himself to the charges brought against the judge who had presided at the trial of this person— charges, however, which did not need much refutation, seeing that they had been abandoned even whilst the hon. Member was yet making them. The hon Member for Finsbury had abandoned all the charges against Baron Gurney, with one exception, viz., the expression which had a reference to mad dogs, which he alleged the learned judge to have used. With that exception the hon. Member did not press the charge of intemperate language against the learned judge. He (Sir James Graham) had received Baron Gurney's explanation of his interruptions during the speech which the prisoner had made in his defence, and he stated that the defence lasted for three hours, during which he (Baron Gurney) had permitted two friends of the prisoner to sit near him and assist him with their occasional advice and suggestions, but the interference of these two gentlemen at length became so constant and frequent, that the learned judge thought proper, in order to prevent the course of justice from being interrupted, to put a stop to this species of interpleading, The learned judge expressly denied having used the phrase " mad dog," or any similar expression; and he explained, with respect to the interruption complained of at a subsequent period of the defence, that the prisoner was arraigning the Government of the country, and describing it as a tyrannical Government, upon which he (Baron Gurney) interposed his authority and stopped this current of observation by reminding Jones that the court was not a competent tribunal to judge of the constitution of the country, but that he was simply called upon to answer the charge brought against him and upon which he stood at the bar to be tried by his fellows. The venerable judge averred that this was the only interruption which the prisoner experienced, during his three hours' defence, from him, and it did not appear to have had much effect, as an interruption, seeing that he spoke for one entire hour after the learned judge had recalled him to the point in question, and thus the completeness and fulness of his defence did not appear to have been broken down. To the best of his recollection that was

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the account which Baron Gurney gave of the transaction. The remark made by Baron Gurney upon the petition of the prisoner was, that his complaint of interruption and of unfair treatment was evidently an afterthought; for he (Jones) had, at the termination of the trial, expressed his acknowledgments and thanks to the judge for the patience and attention with which he had listened to his speech. He put it to the hon. Member whether, as these circumstances had taken place in the presence of counsel, in the face of the bar, in an open court of justice, where there was no attempt at concealment made, it was fair to the learned judge to try the question de novo merely upon the vague allegations contained in the petition which he had presented to the House? He would now refer to the second particular in the case. He alluded to the treatment which the prisoner was said to have been subjected to in gaol. What were the circumstances under which the prisoner was convicted? He (Sir J. Graham) had already stated to the House the dangerous state of excitement to which the prisoner had endeavoured to rouse the populace at Leicester, bearing in mind this fact, he begged the House to reflect upon the nature of the sentence passed upon him. Mr. Baron Gurney, notwithstanding the character of the prisoner's offence sentenced him only to six months' imprisonment. That was the sentence the judge passed. The hon. Member did not complain of the terms of imprisonment, but of the fact of the prisoner being placed in the second class of misdemeanants. The hon. Member had made an allusion to the act of Parliament having reference to this point, but in doing so he omitted to refer to that part of the statute in which the Legislature deliberately enacted, that when a party had been convicted it was quite discretionary with the judge to determine in which division the prisoner was to be classed. The hon. Member would lead the House to believe, that notwithstanding the character of the sentence, undue severity had been exercised towards the prisoner. He did not think that it was consistent with his duty to recommend any alteration in the classification which had been adopted; but in consequence of the representations of the hon. Member relating to the declining health of the prisoner, a letter had been written to the visiting justice on the subject, in which it was stated, that if such statements were true, a relaxation in the
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treatment of the prisoner was strongly recommended. He (Sir J. Graham) had read a certificate from Mr. O. Beaumont, the surgeon of the Leicester gaol, with regard to the condition of the prisoner. The surgeon said in his certificate, that the prisoner was labouring under no bodily disease, but merely a slight indisposition arising from an alteration of diet, and a depression resulting from the confinement to which he was subjected. Was it a fact that even in these circumstances no relaxation had been allowed the prisoner? By the advice of the visiting magistrates considerable relaxation had taken place in the treatment of the prisoner. The rules of the prison, in his particular case, had been mitigated. He was permitted to wear his own clothes; he was allowed to read any unobjectionable books that his friends might think proper to send him; he had also the use of pen, ink, and paper, under certain restrictions. He had now made a short explanation of the conduct of the judge and the executive Government in the particular case which the hon. Member had brought under the notice of the House. And he must be permitted to say, in conclusion, that with all his respect for that House, he did not think it expedient to advise the Crown to exercise its prerogative of mercy unless circumstances strongly warranted the adoption of such a course. No expressions which any hon. Member might think proper to indulge in would induce him to do anything which would have the effect of interfering with the calm and temperate administration of justice. In this particular case he was of opinion that justice had been tempered with mercy. Notwithstanding the imputations which the hon. Member had attempted to cast upon the character of the learned judge, he trusted that that distinguished individual would persevere in the line of conduct which he had pursued from the early period of his judicial career, and would regard with indifference aspersions which could have no effect in injuring his unsullied reputation. The right hon. Baronet concluded by stating that it was his intention to meet the motion of the hon. Member for Finsbury by a direct negative.
Mr. Humewas ready to admit, so far as his own experience went, that the right hon. Gentleman had always attended to applications of this kind, and it certainly appeared that of this case the right hon. Baronet had taken a merciful view. But he thought the circumstance of the

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right hon. Baronet having made relaxations showed that his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury had not improperly brought forward the present case. He (Mr. Hume) had been led away by the statements that had been made public respecting the learned judge, and he had thought the more of it, because in his youth he had been accustomed to look on the learned judge as one of the most steady of reformers, and he was vexed to think that the learned judge should have abandoned his early opinions. His hon. Friend (Mr. Duncombe) it was evident had rather overstated the case. He agreed with his hon. Friend that the manner in which, within the last few years, political offenders had been punished had been very severe. He had visited Sir F. Burdett, Sir John Hobhouse, and other political offenders in prison, and no such severity was then exercised. He trusted, therefore, whenever his hon. Friend had ground, he would proceed in his career. The right hon. Baronet, in the present case, appeared however to have taken a merciful course. As to the learned Judge, he was misled by statements he had seen; but it did not appear, though Mr. Baron Gurney might have used some intemperate expression, that any more serious charge could be made against him. He himself, and many other individuals, in 1831 and 1832, some of whom formed part of the late Government, had made use of much more violent language than had lately been so severely punished—and he was sorry to say that the Whigs, who had been the first to use such language, were the first to punish it so severely. He could not refrain from expressing his hope that this extreme severity of punishment towards political offenders would be abandoned.
Mr. SergeantMurphy recommended his hon. Friend to withdraw his motion; and, adverting to the trials at Lancaster, said he was authorised by the individuals whom he defended, and many other defendants, to express the highest admiration and gratitude for the manner in which the law had been administered, both by the Attorney-general and by the learned Judge who presided on the occasion. The charge against Mr. Baron Gurney, in the present instance, seemed to be of a very flimsy character.
Mr. Hawesalso thought that the charge against Mr. Baron Gurney was not substantiated. He had learned from three
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barristers who were present at the trial, that the prisoner thanked the judge. The case had not been made out, and he thought his hon. Friend would act most prudently by withdrawing the motion.
The Attorney- Generalspoke from the general assurance of more than one of the counsel who were present at the trial, that the learned Judge received the prisoner's thanks for the mode in which he presided over the proceedings. As the motion, however, was not likely to be persevered in, he would only take the liberty of leading some remarks on the case published in a local paper, which, on account of its political tendency, was more likely to sympathize with the prisoner than the judge. He had come down fully prepared to go into the question; and he held in his hand a newspaper, the Leicester Chronicle, which was published in the town of Leicester, advocating politics corresponding with those of the Chartists, and which distinctly stated,—
"It was with considerable surprise that we perused the reports of this trial which appeared in the Times and Morning Chronicle of Monday se'nnight, and which were exceedingly unfair towards the venerable judge before whom the prisoner was tried.
"The prisoner, both in his cross-examination of the two witnesses Marshall and Agar and in his defence, introduced a very great deal of matter wholly irrelevant to the charge brought against him; and Baron Gurney, therefore, had to remind him, as he would have reminded any other prisoner, that such a course could not be allowed. This was done decidedly, but not harshly, as the reports in the Times and Chronicle would make it appear; for he is there said now to have spoken ' sharply,' and then with ' vehemence.' When the prisoner said he had often denounced the government as tyrannical, &c., Baron Gurney said, ' Then you have done very wrong; you had no right to do so,' &c.; but that he said ' with vehemence' is untrue. He is also said to have summed up unequivocally against the prisoner, &c.: but not one word of his summing up is given, whereby the public is enabled to judge whether this is the case or not. Now, seeing that a great deal of room could be found to give all the best parts of the prisoner's eloquent but unconnected defence, we were certainly in expectation of meeting with an outline, at least, of the judge's summing up; and we can only account for such not being the case on the supposition, that it was not the intention of some of the 'briefless' who supply the London papers with assize intelligence—and who supplied the reports in question—to place Baron Gurney's conduct before the public in the most unfavourable

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light possible; and in this supposition we are strengthened by the following circumstance;— During the trial some persons outside the court were working a common house-pump, and the noise thereby made, prevented his lordship from hearing; he, therefore, made some observation to the effect, that the noise should be put a stop to. This simple remark has been tortured into his having threatened to send away ' those persons pumping there'—meaning, it is said, the prisoner's Chartist friends, Bairdstow and Markham!
It is well known that at the time of Jones's apprehension and committal we called in question the (to say the least) expediency of such a procedure, and that because we thought too much importance was thus attached to the somewhat extravagant harangues of an itinerant lecturer; we did this, too, because we are as jealous as any person can be of the slightest invasion of the right of the subject to speak his mind openly and honestly on matters concerning the common weal; but, thinking thus, and even though we may also differ with the learned judge as to the right of a person to denounce the Government as tyrannical, or as to the poor man's labour being equally protected by the law with the rich man's property, we feel bound to declare that we think the prisoner was fairly dealt with by the judge as a judge; wherever he was checked, or not allowed to proceed, it was in accordance with law; and the only point where we could have wished his lordship to have acted otherwise than he did, was his not allowing Jones to challenge one or some of the jury—Jones alleging he had been informed that one or more jurymen were pre-determined to find him guilty; but for this he gave a legal reason. However unfavourable the summing-up may have been to the prisoner, he himself was the cause of it; whatever evidence was wanting as to the tendency and intention of his language at the meeting in question, his cross-examination and defence supplied; and, despite the ability he displayed as an orator, he added another to the many recent proofs that, ' he who is his own counsel, has often a very foolish client.'"
And in the following week the same paper said:—
" The report of this trial, as published in the London newspapers, continues to excite comments, more or less unfair, upon the conduct of the judge; we therefore again take the opportunity to assert that the defendant was fairly tried and indulgently treated.
" Every person who has witnessed the direct and straight-to-the-point manner of Mr. Baron Gurney—his dislike to the introduction of irrelevant matters, and the impartial constancy of his rebukes to counsel with reference to their irregularities—must admit that his patience and endurance in Jones's case were I extraordinary. His interruptions have been
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misreported and misunderstood. A great deal of cant has been written as to the propriety of judges allowing all sorts of indulgences to defendants who plead their own cause, as if, forsooth, rules which are the result of great experience, framed for economising the public time, and for reducing inquiries to close and definite issues, are to give way whenever any defendant is vain enough and foolish enough to be his own counsel. Some judges there are so much afraid of observation and remark, that they have been led into the weakest and silliest condescensions to persons charged with seditious offences; assuredly Mr. Baron Gurney's conduct was not of this character. At the same time we feel certain that more extensive indulgence was shown to Jones than would have been the most able counsel on the circuit.
" Having made these observations as to the impartiality of the judge, we may be allowed to say, that in our opinion he was somewhat in error in point of law when he refused to allow the defendant to quote to the jury from speeches made at public meetings by persons of authority and station. In all the defences with which we are acquainted, in cases of seditious libels or seditious words, it has been usual to allow such quotations to be made, and we are sure that numerous instances are to be found in the published speeches of the most eminent of our advocates. It is true that they may not be evidence in a technical sense, but surely the published records of speeches are sometimes pertinent by way of comparison, when the quality and tendency of particular expressions form the tendency.
" It was, however, well for defendant that the quotations were disallowed, because, on carefully looking at the speeches referred to, we can imagine nothing more certain to have procured his conviction than the contrast of his speeches with those. They were the speeches of townsmen at town meetings, assembled for the purpose of discussing special or general grievances, or of celebrating the triumph of freedom over despotism in a neighbouring nation. We defy the most perverted ingenuity to point out the most remote analogy in the language of the speakers, or in the circumstances of the meetings at which these speeches were delivered. The learned counsel in particular, whose speech was alluded to, was really the person most entitled to complain of their exclusion; for, on reference to his address, no single expression can be found of which the most fastidious stickler for propriety need be ashamed.
"There is one other point upon which Mr. Baron Gurney has been, as we believe, misunderstood. We by no means allow it to be a great crime, in discussions or arguments at public meetings, to speak of particular acts of the Government as 'tyrannical;' and we do not think the judge intended to convey that impression; we believe he intended merely to assert it to be an offence to incite the people

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against the Government and institutions gene-rally as tyrannical.
" With reference to the defendant's challenges of the jury, the judge had no power, as we are informed, to allow them, without cause being shown, there being a difference between felonies and misdemeanours in this respect."
Thus it appeared, that those who might be looked on as not indisposed to find fault with the judge bore testimony to the fair and indulgent treatment of the prisoner. The motion divided itself to two points—first, as to the conduct of Baron Gurney; and, secondly, the conduct of the executive. Now, without referring to the prisoner's thanks to the judge, it seemed generally admitted that the conduct of the latter was altogether free from blame, and with respect to the executive, the application made to Government has been met by a relaxation of punishment, which the hon. Member for Montrose had admitted to be commensurate with the circumstances of the case. He need not go into further details, as he hoped that the hon. Member for Finsbury, with that discretion which did not often desert him, would withdraw the motion.
Mr. T. Duncombesaid, that Jones denied that he had ever thanked the judge. It was to the jury he returned his thanks, and this was confirmed by his friends. The right hon. Baronet referred to a memorial which he (Mr. Duncombe) had sent in on the part of Jones. That memorial referred to the treatment of the prisoner, and till that moment he (Mr. Duncombe) had never known the result of his application. He had acted in this case upon the principle by which he was generally guided. When a grievance was placed in his hand, if he believed that the grievance could be proved, he held it to be his duty to bring it before the House to the best of his ability, nor would he allow himself to be deterred by any Secretary of State from doing what he thought himself bound to do, though he would be very glad if people would place their grievances in any hands rather than his. He had so much respect for the legal abilities of the learned sergeant, that he should at once accede to his suggestion, and withdraw the motion. But as to the learned judge's friends complaining of what he (Mr. Duncombe) had done, he really could not see upon what ground they could rest their complaints. On the contrary, the learned judge and
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his friends ought to be very much obliged to him (Mr. Duncombe) for bringing this case forward, and thereby affording them an opportunity of correcting any misapprehensions that might have gone abroad.
Motion withdrawn.

ABOLITION OF THE CORN-LAWS—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Order of the Day for the resumption of the adjourned debate, on the Abolition of the Corn-laws was read,
Mr. Borthwickexpressed extreme surprise at the very thin attendance of Members on an occasion of so much importance. The present motion had been ushered in by an agitation unconstitutional in its nature and dangerous in its consequences. He protested against the transference of the debates of that House to the boards of Drury-lane theatre. He believed hon. Gentlemen opposite were impressed with the importance of this question; but they would better testify their sense of it by attending to their duties in the House than by taking part in an agitation which engendered a spirit of discontent and disaffection among the inhabitants of the towns, and also arrayed the tenantry against their landlords. The petitions which had been presented for the repeal of the Corn-laws could not be looked upon as the spontaneous and heartfelt expression of the sentiments of the people, but as the products of an agitation which had commenced in that House. A circular, addressed to the fears of the electors, had been forwarded to him from the Anti-Corn-law League which he could not too much condemn, and which, in effect, told the electors that if they refused to take a side on this party question, they could not be included within the limits of possible salvation. In another of the pamphlets issued by the League, which enumerated the authorities who were favourable to an alteration of the Corn-laws, the name of her Majesty was introduced, on the ground of the speech from the throne, delivered in the autumn of 1841. He said that the Anti-Corn-law League were, in thus deluding the people, practising a deceit on them in the name of religion, and in the name of their Queen, for the sake of inducing the people to side with them in a party and political contest. In his opinion, this question ought not to be argued by those who sat

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on his side of the House as an exclusively agricultural question; nor by those on the other side, exclusively on the ground of its bearings on trade. Neither by his constituents nor himself had he any connection, directly or indirectly, with either of the two great interests of commerce on the one hand and agriculture on the other; and, therefore, if he was presumptuous in addressing the House on the subject, he was at least entirely disinterested. It had been said that the electors who returned a majority in favour of protection to agriculture, had been deceived by the right hon. Gentleman who was now prime minister; but at all events the right hon. Gentleman had not deceived him (Mr. Borthwick) nor his constituents; for, from the speech made by the right hon. Gentleman previous to his accession to office, he saw that one of the first measures proposed would be an alteration of the corn-law, and he warned his constituents to be prepared for such a change. But there could be no doubt, if the right hon. Gentleman did not deceive the country, that the country was deceived. Gentlemen told their constituents that they would maintain the sliding-scale as it then existed; and farmers, having contracted grave and serious obligations on that understanding, had a right to come to the House and say, " We have been deceived, and when a day of reckoning comes, we shall next time take the question into our own hands." This was stated clearly by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wallingford (Mr. Blackstone), and nothing could more clearly show the impropriety of giving pledges. Hon. Gentlemen ought not to pledge themselves to individual questions, or if they did, they ought to abide by them; fiat justitia, ruat cœlum ought to be the motto of every man who gave a pledge to his constituents. He protested against judging this question in the spirit of party, or dealing with it in the fashion of political jockeyship, which might suit those whose object it was to obtain the gold of office. Party interests might be served by trickery, but the interests of nations were only to be served and promoted by truth. He wished hon. Gentlemen would reflect that they did not sit in that House merely as Members for Tamworth, Yorkshire, London, Stockport, Dublin, or Edinburgh, but as Members for the whole empire; and considering the immense extent of the empire, it might be said that a member of the British Par-
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liament was a Member for the world. The question ought to be viewed in its bearing on the destinies of the empire, and through them on the destinies of mankind; and not as it was viewed by those Gentlemen,
" Who rave, recite, and madden through the land,
Fire in each eye, and papers in each hand."
They had argued this question with great eloquence, ingenuity, and also sincerity, in their attempts to produce conviction in the public mind; and as far as he had observed, they had succeeded in what they attempted to prove, but they had argued the question as a narrow and not of worldwide importance. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton in his speech the other evening, had laid down no proposition which he had not succeeded in proving. The noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, who spoke with great experience, and with all the weight of his high character on the question, had said nothing which he did not prove; and, as far as he had read the debates of the House, and the arguments of the respectable portion of the press, they had proved all the doctrines they maintained. They had proved that the doctrines of free-trade were those of abstract truth and justice; they had proved that we ought to buy in the cheapest market and sell in the dearest; they had proved that from one end of the globe to the other there ought to be no impediment to the mutual exchange between man and man; that the inhabitant of London and the inhabitant of Timbuctoo had a full abstract right to the free exchange of each other's productions, but they had omitted to prove the connecting proposition that because those abstract truths were capable of proof, ergo, the Corn-law ought to be abolished. He hoped some hon. Gentleman would attempt to prove that because these things were true, therefore protection to agriculture ought to be abandoned. His opinion was, that to give up protection would be ruinous to agriculture and destructive of the vital interests of this country. Hon. Gentlemen opposite leant on the abstract principles of free-trade, which they proclaimed as novel discoveries. They were not new —they were as old as truth itself—they were the doctrines of absolute verity; and in that abstract region he was with them the asserter of the doctrines of free-trade. Upon the application of the principles of free-trade professed by hon. Gentlemen—

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namely, to buy in the cheapest and sell in the dearest markets—he contended that the very dearest market that Englishmen could buy in was the continent of Europe, which must have the effect of displacing the cultivation of the soil. The foundation of all prosperity was the riches of the soil, and it was absolutely necessary to give to the cultivators of the soil the advantage of that protection and that influence which the Gentlemen on the other side seemed to question. In a well known work upon this subject—he knew not whether the hon. Member for Montrose had read it—it was said, that England need now grow a peck of wheat if she were the workshop of the world; but he would say that it was absolutely necessary, if they meant to protect all the interests of the country, and to give stability to its commerce and strength to its prosperity, that they should give a preponderating protection to that agriculture which was the foundation of our greatness, and without which commerce must suffer, should this motion be prematurely and unfairly carried.
Mr. Wrightsonsaid, that an argument in favour of the Corn-law had been, that this country from time immemorial had been accustomed to a Corn-law, and that for the last 25 years the Government and the Ministers had been on the look out for some opportunity of relaxing the stringency of our commercial code. Though he would not deny that for a long time Corn-laws had existed, yet he could not see on what ground it was considered that anything like an improvement in their stringency had taken place during the last 25 years. The Corn-law of 1774 he considered the best Corn-law that ever stood upon our statute book, and the only one that worked in a satisfactory manner. All interests seemed to have flourished under it, and most particularly the agricultural interest. If any Gentleman entertained a doubt upon that point, it was easily removed by recalling to mind what had been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, who quoted tables showing that from the year 1771 to the year 1791 the agriculturists enjoyed a higher price of corn than that which was enjoyed even at the present moment. Unfortunately, in 1791 there was a body of gentlemen who composed a third party in the House of Commons, to whom it occurred that the im-
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port prices were not high enough, and who determined to raise the scale of prices from 44 s., being the lowest on the scale by the act of 1774, to 50 s., and the highest from 48s. to 54 s. There was at that time a young nobleman who took an active part in supporting Mr. Pitt, and who had since filled many of the highest offices of the State, and who was still living—he meant the present Lord Harrowby. That nobleman at that day told them that the object of the law was to create artificial prices for the benefit of the landed interest. He wished he could see the son of that noble Lord (the Member for Liverpool, Lord Sandon) come forward now and advocate the same principles as those which his excellent father advocated nearly half a century ago. This was the first change made in the law of 1774. In 1804 the price had risen to 72s. a quarter; but even with that price the Legislature admitted corn at a duty of 8s. 6d. when the price was at 63 s.; and when it reached 66 s. a quarter, it was admitted without any duty at all. Would hon. Gentlemen opposite give the country such a Corn-law now? No; because the appetite for protection grew with what it fed on. The next change in the law was in the year 1815. The question was then attended with greater difficulties than had existed at any other time. It was considered that corn could not be grown in England at a remunerating price at less than 80s. a quarter; but as soon as the price reached 80s. freedom of trade was given. The real principle, then, upon which all these laws had been founded, was that of ascertaining the price at which corn could be grown in this country, and having secured that, then to admit foreign corn free of duty. If that was the true principle, then he must say that the law of 1815 was the last which was founded on that principle. When the Act of 1822 passed, the country possessed every advantage. There was profound peace, the currency (thanks to the Right hon. Baronet) had been adjusted, and there was also the advantage of the famous petition from the merchants of the city of London, which alone formed an era in the history of this question, and they had also the wise counsel of Mr. Huskisson, which was embodied in the well-known report of 1821. But all these advantages were thrown away, and the Administration proposed a Corn-law which he conceived to be totally novel in princi-

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ple. What was the law then (in 1822) proposed? It was that a duty of 12 s. should be paid upon the average price of 70 s. a quarter, and, not content with that, they charged another duty of 5s. for the first three months over and above that. This showed the animus of the Legislature and of the Government at that time. That bill was repealed in 1828. In 1827 Mr. Canning introduced a measure to fix the duty of 16 s. 8d. when corn should be at 65 s. a quarter. Would not any human being consider that to be high enough? But no; the Bill was rejected in the Lords, and in 1828 the Duke of Wellington proposed a measure asking 6s. a quarter more duty; and a bill was finally passed at a duty of 22 s. 8d. when corn should be at 65 s. a quarter. Last year the right hon. Baronet now at the head of her Majesty's Government proposed and carried another law, altering the law of 1828. The average price of corn last year was 56 s. a quarter, and that price was no doubt a fair basis for the act of last year. The right hon. Baronet, indeed, stated on that occasion, that he wished the prices to be between 54 s. and 58 s., which in other words was 56 s. Fifty-six shillings was the basis of the tithe composition, therefore if that was not a proper price the Legislature had done great injustice. It was the price upon which the greatest part of the rents of the country were calculated. Yet what did the Government of last year do? They put a duty of 16 s. upon corn when at 56 s. a quarter. Had not the people a right to say that this was a most severe and unwarrantable law I Considering this to be a law intended for the first commercial country in the world, he was authorised in saying that it was based upon an entirely anti-commercial principle. Nothing could exceed the cruelty of such a law, except it was the blindness of those who supported it. It was difficult to understand how such a law could get upon our statute book under a representative Government. He believed the truth to be this (and why should he not state it?) that there had been for years and years a constant struggle kept up between those superior minds that rose to the management of the public affairs of this country, and the less able in intellect and ability but still superior classes with respect to the greatness of wealth and property, and who always must by the strength of that property and the respectability of their cha-,
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racter, possess great influence in society. This struggle generally ended in the defeat of the former, and the triumph of the latter. He did not ascribe any bad legislation to the individual will of a Minister. He did not believe there was any Minister, let him be taken from either side of the House, who would not do justice to the public upon this subject, if those Gentlemen who constituted that dominant property party would only take off the pressure, and allow that Minister to follow the bent of his own counsels, and of his own impressions. He trusted that no such state of feeling would again exist in this country as was once described to exist when Mr. Canning ruled the destinies of this empire. In the Life of Mr. Canning he found a description of the feeling prevailing at that time in the Legislature. It was stated,—
" That the great landowners would all work together; they were all determined to adhere to prohibition; no compromise would please them; the Lords were more violent than the Commons, and they were all pledged to each other."
He believed, that if the landowners would not make a march in advance, their own tenants would very soon be before them. Would they take a lesson in time, or would they follow the example of the privileged orders in France, and refuse a compliance till they were compelled? He hoped for better things: there was no reason why those excellent and influential Gentlemen who supported the Government or why the Members of the Government themselves, should be deprived and shut out from the benefit of experience; and having placed at the head of their great party a Gentleman who had given most unequivocal proofs that he would not be bound by any pre-conceived opinions when the real interests of the country might require a contrary line of conduct, he certainly looked forward to the time when, this being a country in which Statesmen did not confine themselves to any particular dogmas, but were always open to the effect of reasoning—he and those who agreed with him might hope that, as Lord Grenville had disavowed a delusion under which he had laboured for forty years upon the subject of the sinking fund —so the right hon. Baronet would speedily avow with equal candour, that he had been mistaken and misled by the delusive principle of the sliding-scale.
Mr. R. Palmer—No one could for a moment suppose that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down intended to attribute to those who differed from him improper motives as to the course which they might think proper to adopt on this occasion. He could assure him that, though he differed from the hon. Gentleman as to the conclusions to which he had come, he would not support protection to the agriculturists, if he did not think that protection to that interest was essential to the welfare of the country. The hon. Gentleman's speech referred chiefly to the different Corn-laws which had been passed by the Legislature, and the question was, not as to the degree of protection to be given to agriculture, but whether, upon the motion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, any protection at all was to be given. He therefore thought that the question at issue came within small compass, without the necessity of entering into the merits or demerits of the Corn-law. Whatever might be the opinion of Mr. Pitt, it was certain that all eminent statesmen since the year 1815 had adopted as a principle that protection to the agriculturists was their right and was necessary. But if hon. Gentlemen opposite quoted Mr. Pitt's authority he would quote that of the late Mr. Huskisson in the year 1814, which said,
" Let the bread which is eaten be the produce of our home growth. I care not how cheap it is—the cheaper it is the better—it is cheap now. I rejoice at it, because there is a sufficiency of our own corn; but to ensure the continuance of that sufficiency you must ensure to the home-grower a protection from the produce of the foreign grower."
Had not Mr. Huskisson admitted the opinion here expressed? He was certain that Mr. Canning admitted that protection to the English agriculturist was necessary; and he was the more certain of this fact, because he recollected the speech of Lord Glenelg in the year 1828 in reference to this point. It was then admitted on all hands that a protection to the home-grower was necessary, and it was then merely a question of degree. He had quoted these opinions because protection was the principle on which these statesmen acted—and a very good rule too. At present the noble Lord the Member for London maintained the propriety of allowing the introduction of foreign corn into our ports at a moderate
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duty. That noble Lord, in alluding to the agricultural report of 1822, and to the recommendation therein contained for an alteration of the Corn-law of 1815, declared that he was inclined to believe the framer of that report intended to subvert the principle of the law of 1815, and had determined on introducing foreign corn into the market at all times. And again, the noble Lord said, that the principle of admitting foreign corn when prices were low would be extremely difficult to maintain so as to counterbalance the taxes paid by the farmers; that a duty of 40s or 50s. a quarter could hardly be enacted, and if it were enacted it could not be maintained; and the noble Lord added,
" If foreign corn were admitted, and the farmer was even subject to scarcely any taxation, he would not be able, having to live in a certain state of respectability, to compete with the lords of Poland and Russia, whose vassals and serfs are unacquainted with the wants of civilised life."
Now he found no fault with the noble Lord, or with any hon. Gentleman, who after due consideration, if they thought their former opinions were erroneous, should openly avow that fact. It had been contended over and over again that those who represented agriculture, and were interested in the land, had no right to protection. Now the agriculturists had asserted that they felt they had a right to protection. They certainly thought that there were heavy burthens which pressed upon the land—not absolutely or exclusively, but in a greater degree upon the land than upon the manufacturing interests; and this position was established by figures and correct data. It had often been stated that the land had to bear the burthen of poor rates, highway rates, county rates, and church rates; and this assertion was taken up as if the landed interest complained that they bore more than their share of those burthens. It was not so; but he repeated be thought the land bore a much larger portion of these taxes than the other interests. This fact was proved by returns made in the years 1826 and 1827, which showed the amount to be much the same as now under these heads (for he had not looked to more modern returns). The amount paid under these three heads in the two years was 18,954,000 l.; and what portion of this was paid by the land? Why mills and factories out of this sum of 18,954,000 l.

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paid 259,565 l. Another argument which had been used for the abolition of the Corn-laws by hon. Gentlemen who were connected with the manufacturing districts was, that they had created that distress which he, in common with other hon. Members, sincerely deplored; for foreigners, it was said, would not take our manufactured goods because we did not take their corn. But the returns made to the House of the quantity of exported goods and imports of foreign corn disproved this argument. In 1829, the number of quarters of wheat imported into this country was 1,340,000 quarters; the value of the manufactures exported from this country was about 20,000,000 l. In 1833, the imports of wheat amounted to only 82,000 quarters, but the export of manufactures had increased to 27,000,000 l.; and in 1835, when there was a still greater decrease in the importation of wheat to 28,000 quarters, the decrease in the export of manufactures was only to 26,897,000 l. It therefore, did not follow, because we did not take their corn, that they would not take our goods. No one could fail to sympathize with the distresses described by the hon. Member for Sheffield; but when that hon. Member referred to the flourishing state of our manufactures six years ago, he begged to remind him that the old Corn-law was in force at that period. It was not, therefore, reasonable to attribute manufacturing distress to the operation of the Corn-laws. The hon. Member for Nottingham talked last night of the great want of improvement in agriculture. From his knowledge of that hon. Member he was fully convinced of his ability to master any subject to which he might think proper to devote his attention; but without pretending to oppose his authority as a practical man to that of the hon. Member, he would venture to assert, from his own knowledge and observation, in passing through the country, that a material improvement had taken place in the mode of cultivating land; an improvement which he thought likely to continue if the people could only be induced to lay out their capital, which they would only do on condition of receiving sufficient protection from Parliament to enable them to embark their property with safety in the experiment. But said the hon. Gentleman, the Corn-laws are doomed. Without pretending to the gift of prophecy, he ventured to dispute that prediction, be-
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cause he would never believe that the Government of this country would ever forget that the support of British agriculture was one of its first duties. The effects of such a course had been too often pointed out to require any repetition from him on the present occasion. One of its first effects would be to diminish the value of land, and if land could not be cultivated with any degree of profit, it must be evident that labour would be thrown out of employment. The evil must ultimately fall on labour, which already felt the effects of depression; for he believed that more persons were out of employment now than at this time twelvemonth and the workhouses were fuller. The reason was, a man preferred reducing his expenditure, by diminishing the number of his labourers, rather than by lowering their wages, already at the lowest point. The hon. Member for Nottingham said he had heard nothing this Session about independence of foreign supply. But he apprehended, that although the danger might be distant, still the time might come when the disadvantages of such a state of thiags might be severely felt. In support of this opinion he begged to refer to a high authority, which was no other than that of the late President of the United States, Mr. Van Buren, who had pronounced an opinion that nothing could compensate a people for a dependence on their own resources, and that abundance on which their happiness so much depended, and which was to be looked for nowhere so much as from the industry of her agriculturists and the bounty of the earth. He was unwilling to detain the House, but he might be allowed to say a few words as to the course which had been adopted by her Majesty's Government, and by those who supported them, during the last Session, as to any alteration in the Corn-laws. In the course of the debate several allusions had been made to this subject; and hon. Gentlemen on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, connected with agricultural districts, had been taunted with having abandoned the interests of their constituents by supporting the Corn-law of last year. One hon. Gentleman had said that the farmers had been deceived by those in whom they had placed the utmost confidence. "With regard to himself-—and he believed he might answer for his hon. Colleague also—he begged to say, that

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this charge was totally unfounded. So far from pledging himself to his constituents to support the former Corn-law, he had always told them that they might rest satisfied that some alteration in the scale of duties would be proposed, and that at no distant period. He contended that the only course a person of common prudence could take, in order to promote the interests of his constituents, was to support such a measure as that introduced on the subject of the Corn-laws by the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government. That measure was opposed by one section of the House, because they did not approve the principle of a sliding-scale; and by another party because they wished for the entire abolition of the duty. Therefore, although he thought the right hon. Gentleman had carried his reduction of duty further than was advisable, he believed, that the only chance they had of maintaining such protection, was by accepting, or he would rather say, reluctantly acquiescing in the measure adopted last year. He must be allowed to refer for a few moments to a speech delivered last evening by the hon. Member for Wallingford (Mr. Blackstone). He regretted that the hon. Member was not now in his place; but as the hon. Gentleman had spoken on this subject with some degree of warmth, he might not, perhaps, deem it necessary to be present at the division. He had for a long period had the pleasure of knowing that hon. Gentleman, and entertained for him the greatest respect; but he regretted that the hon. Gentleman had indulged in observations which had been described in an organ supposed to represent the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite, as exhibiting " the recklessness of the Miltonic Satan." The hon. Member for Wallingford had said, that he agreed with the noble Member for Sunderland (Lord Howick) that the farmers were beginning to advocate the system of free-trade in corn,—not that they approved of free-trade, but they were so reckless of all consequences, so utterly in despair as to their future prospects, that they were willing to join in the cry for total repeal, and for free-trade in corn. Now, he must say, that he thought this was a libel upon the common sense of the farmers of England. But the hon. Member for Wallingford also said, that the farmers felt " that they had been deserted by those to whom they had naturally been accustomed
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to look up whenever any measure was in progress that was calculated to injure their interests—namely, the resident nobility and gentry of the country, from whom they now met, in their hour of destitution not only with no support, but with every kind of hostility." He considered that this assertion of the hon. Member for Wallingford was a libel upon tae nobility and gentry of the country. He would like to be informed in what this hostility consisted, and how it had been exhibited. The hon. Member had stated, that he had presented a requisition to the high sheriff of Berkshire, requesting that a public meeting might be convened to promote the object of protection to agriculture, and that to that petition the signatures of only three magistrates were attached. He thought that instead of this fact showing any hostility to the interests of the farmers, it only proved that the magistrates placed very little confidence in the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Member could not expect that such observations as those to which he had referred, would be allowed to pass unnoticed. They were such observations as he (Mr. Palmer) might not have been surprised to hear from a political opponent, but he could not have anticipated that such remarks would have been made by a political Friend. In conclusion, he would again express his belief that if the Corn-laws were repealed, those evils to which he had alluded would follow; but if that law were doomed—if the hon. Member for Nottingham were a true prophet—it might be his fate to share in the consequences of that calamity, but it should never be said that he had added to that misfortune the disgrace of contributing to the result.
Mr. H. Marslandsaid, he thought those who were favourable to the repeal of the Corn-laws had no reason for despondency. The mist of ignorance which for a long period had overspread the minds of those who were previously favourable to monopoly had been dispelled by the vast extent of information on this subject which had been disseminated throughout the country, and the principles of free-trade had been recognised by her Majesty's Government, by whom they were formerly repudiated. Every succeeding Session they went still further in their abandonment of their anti-free-trade principles, and that which was formerly a question of principle had now become merely a question of time. He

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thought the assertion that the landed interest bore a larger proportion of the public burthens than was imposed upon other property, had been refuted by the rejection of the motion of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr, Ward). The Chancellor of the Exchequer had held out hopes to the House and to the country that trade was reviving; but he feared that this was not the case, and that these representations were only intended to lull the House into a fatal security. The right hon. Gentleman, the Vice-president of the Board of Trade, had deplored with great feeling the extensive distress which existed in the country; but he found consolation in the consideration, that though the people were not so happy as they might be, they were not so wretched as they were a century ago. They had been told that the consumption of animal food and of other necessaries of life was greater in this country than in any other country of Europe; but while many of the people were enjoying all the luxuries of life numbers were literally famishing. Was the country to be satisfied with an assurance that the number of deaths were less this year than in former years? It was true that numbers who could not find employment at home were leaving our shores for better climes; but it was no less true that numbers had fallen from want of that food which wicked legislation forbade them to procure in re-turn for their labour. Whatever might be said by Gentlemen opposite, he imagined that few of the manufacturing classes would not be better off from cheapening their food, and he was convinced that if Providence had, pot been beneficent as regarded the seasons, the misery of the manufacturing operatives would have been most appalling. If hon. Gentlemen were not able to look beyond the present scene, and anticipate what was likely to happen, yet they might draw inferences from the past, and they would find that the agricultural labourer had always been most prosperous when food was most abundant. It was said that all change was bad and ought to be deprecated; but the agricultural labourer was surely not so satisfied with his present state as that he should dread any change, however sudden it might be. Another class for whom the Corn-laws were said to be maintained were the farmers' class; but certainly if there were any class which derived no advantage from the Corn-laws it was that;
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for they took their land at a fixed price when the price of everything else was unfixed and fluctuating, not from the nature of the case, but in consequence of unsound legislation. That which the farmer really wanted was to know on what he had to depend; if he were once assured of that he would then bestir himself, and apply the improvements of science to agricultural processes. Their rents were overwhelmingly too high; and that they were so, appeared from the deductions which were continually made at the rent-day with so much applause. This power of exacting high rents arose out of the Corn-laws, and of this truth the farmers, who were slow to learn, and only to be taught by sad experience, were beginning to be aware. But, supposing the Corn-laws were repealed, the landlords would not be so much affected as (hey would be by the destruction of manufactures, which, however, could be no longer carried on to their former extent under the existing system of restriction, for, though it had been said that manufactures had flourished under Corn-laws, it was certain that they would do so no longer. Now, if repeal of the Corn-laws was essential to the welfare of all classes, immediate repeal was no less desirable. In the present state of uncertainty all business was suspended; no leases were entered into, the agricultural labourer was thrown out of employment, and the whole nation was suffering injury, without any correspondent advantage. But, he believed that, in fact, the authors of the present law were already numbering its days; but what the House might be disposed to do with it was a different thing, for he believed that no feelings of humanity, no sense of justice, would compel them to do justice to those who had so long suffered wrong at their hands, and that nothing but a necessity arising from the distress of the agricultural districts or the falling-off of the revenue would prevail with the House to change its system. In former times they had heard much of the necessity of having an united Cabinet. How much more necessary was it that there should be unity and consistency in the individual Members of the Cabinet, and that they should not dread the idol that they had made, as the present Cabinet seemed to do 'for their acts were in opposition to the principles which they so eloquently announced, an instance of which was given the other night by the

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right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham, who, while holding out as he said the olive branch, and breathing peace to all mankind, produced a measure which, although ushered in by all these honeyed words, was unequivocally calculated for nothing but to let forth the waters of strife.
Sir Edward Knatchbullsaid, that the best claim he could prefer for the indulgence of the House, was to assure them his words should be but few; he rose only to declare his intention to vote in direct opposition to the motion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton, and to give his unqualified support to the law as it now stood. But, before he addressed himself to the subject of debate, he might be allowed, indeed it would probably be expected of him, to offer an observation on what had fallen from the hon. Member for Wallingford last night respecting himself. Having been so pointedly referred to by the hon. Member, he should not be acting respectfully to the hon. Member if he neglected to reply to him; and the hon. Member must allow him (Sir E. Knatchbull) to express his unfeigned regret, that the hon. Member did not hear the able reply which had been made to him by the hon. Member for Berkshire (Mr. R. Palmer). The hon. Member for Wallingford had certainly used such terms with reference to the hon. Member for Berkshire, as he bad hardly ever heard used in that House by one Member to another, whom he professed to call his friend; but all that had been so fully answered by the hon. Member for Berkshire, that any remarks of his (Sir E. Knatchbull's) would be uncalled for. With respect to himself (Sir Edward Knatchbull) the hon. Member accused him of having deserted the cause he had heretofore supported, and added, that formerly he would not have taken that course. It was a matter of regret to him that the hon. Member had made that observation; he did not deny the hon. Member's influence in that part of the county with which he was connected, and where he took a decided lead; but he hoped that the hon. Member would not mislead those with whom he was now acting. He hoped that they would not be misled, for he appeared to be a convert to principles which he had hitherto opposed. [Mr. Blackstone: "No."] What the hon. Member had done had tended most to further the views of those to whom the hon. Member had been opposed. The
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hon. Member now said, that he had not changed, and he rejoiced to hear it, though what the hon. Member had said, had given much pleasure to those to whom he had been hitherto opposed. The hon. Member, however, had stated most erroneously, and without any ground or foundation, that he had deserted the cause he had hitherto supported. He was not aware of any great difference, or of any difference at all, between the hon. Member and himself. On the question of principle, he took it, they were altogether agreed. He (Sir E. Knatchbull) was decidedly in favour of protection to the agricultural interest as a general rule, but if the hon. Gentleman thought that, because in a measure to be submitted to Parliament they happened to differ, he (Sir E. Knatchbull) had deserted the cause he had always supported, the hon. Member was wholly mistaken, and he could not but hope that the hon. Member would take no course which would lead to the serious injury of the cause they both wished to support. The noble Lord the Member for Sunderland (Viscount Howick) told the House that, though he was an advocate for a low fixed duty, he would vote for the present motion; but he did not suppose that the hon. Member for Wallingford would pursue the same course, for the purpose of uniting with a body to which ha and the hon. Member were alike opposed. Apologising for thus referring to the matter personal to himself, he would address his observations to the question directly before them. He had already intimated that he approved of the present law, and that he intended to give it his support. It had been said, that this law had been proposed preparatory to the entire abolition of the Corn-laws. He apprehended that this was not the case. When that bill was proposed the Ministers took all the great interests of the country into their consideration, and they submitted to Parliament a measure which they believed would be beneficial to the interests of the whole community. It was not intended as preparatory to a repeal of the Corn-laws, but to place on the surest foundation a law which he believed to be indispensably necessary, not only for the agricultural, but for all the interests of the community. He was told, that in passing it, they were acting from first to last on the principles of free-trade—that he denied. It was

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said, that the landed interest were all powerful in that House, and that his right hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) was the advocate of the principles of free-trade, and would carry them out if he were not controlled by the agricultural interest; if this were so, how was it that there was so much dissatisfaction throughout the country as had been described by the hon. Member for Wallingford? If this were so, how was it that his right hon. Friend did not use the power he possessed, and avail himself of this control to satisfy the agriculturists? It was asserted again and again, that this was a landlord's question, and this proposition also he decidedly denied. It was for the interest of the landlords, of the tenants, and of the labourers, that this protection should be given to agriculture; it was for the interest of the tenants. Let him take as an instance the case of the occupier of a farm, at a rent of 100 l. a year, and let him assume that this farm returned five rents. It was said, that the object of the Corn-laws was to keep up prices, and that the object of the abolition was to reduce prices. Now in the case he had put, if prices were reduced 50 per cent., the interest of the landlord would be reduced from 100 l. to 50 l.; but how would stand the case of the tenant? He had to make four rents to the landlord's one, and at the same rate of loss per cent, the tenant's loss would be 200 l. out of the 400 l. If this were true, what would be the situation of the labourers? When the tenant had lost 50 per cent., it would be utterly out of his power to give such employment to the labourers, and to place them in that state of comfort and ease as the tenant would desire. The hon. and learned Member for Bath had stated that the House had refused all inquiry, that they were told that the people were in a most distressed condition, and yet that the House refused all relief. He was sure the hon. and learned Member would see that this was not a fair way of meeting this question. Let him ask what they had been doing during the last three nights, but enquiring into the necessity for a Corn-law, or whether it could be abolished? The only difference between this and the mode suggested by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton was whether the Speaker should be in the Chair or the House should be presided over by the Chairman of the committees and when the hon. and
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learned Member for Bath said, in an invidious way, that the House would not go into an inquiry, he must reply that the House was actually discussing the question as fully as if it were in committee. They had been told that the farmers throughout the country were very desirous that the law should be changed, that free trade should be established, and that the Corn-laws should be abolished. He was sure, however, that the assertion would be contradicted by the united voice of the farmers in the county he represented; for their opinion was in favour of the view which he (Sir E. Knatchbull) took. Let him remind the House that the question they had to decide that night was, whether there should be a total repeal of the Corn-laws, and whether there should be any protection whatever given to the agricultural interest. Hon. Gentlemen opposite said that it would be expedient, and wise, and just, and that it would tend to relieve the difficulties under which too many people in this country were now labouring, if this law were abrogated. It appeared to him that if this were done the principle of free trade must be made of general and universal application. But though hon. Members opposite who supported the Anti-Corn-law League might be prepared to support that principle, it was one which, in the present state of the country, no man in his senses would advise the Parliament now to adopt. He was at a loss to understand how it would be possible to apply it. If they applied it to the agricultural interest, he prayed them to take into their consideration the exclusive burthens borne by the land. If he talked of the land-tax as a burthen, he should be told that it was an arrangement between the Crown and the landowners, and that the landowners gained a great deal by the arrangement; but the land-tax, the poor-rates, the highway-rates, and the Church-rates were undoubtedly taxes paid exclusively by the land. But he did not rely upon them alone in a question of this kind. There were other restrictions and liabilities. What did hon. Gentlemen say to the malt tax? What did they say to the duty on spirits? It might be said that these duties were paid by the consumer. Be it so; but they placed the agriculturists under restrictions, and prevented them carrying on the culture of the soil by the most beneficial system. He would be the last person to vote for a re-

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peal of those taxes, but, so long as they continued, it would be impossible to place this country under a system of free trade. Suppose, however, they succeeded in repealing the Corn-laws, he wanted to know what the consequences would be. He remembered having a conversation two years ago with a gentleman, who told him, " If you do not repeal the Corn-laws you cannot carry on the Government for two years." He asked, if they repealed the Corn-laws what would be their state at the end of those two years? His friend replied, "God only knows; things will then be so bad that I cannot anticipate. any remedy." There were other liabilities to which the land was now subject—liabilities incurred since the law had been passed. There were pecuniary liabilities,
charges created by family settlements—liabilities created under a system of protection, and which could not be met, if that protection was removed. [Opposition cheers.] Did hon. Gentlemen mean to say that a sweeping measure of the Corn-laws was to make no provision for those liabilities? Even those who supported a change did not object to a duty on corn. Lord Fitzwilliam had been often quoted as an advocate for a repeal of the Corn-laws; but in writing to the chairman of a meeting held some time since at Birmingham, he said, "You are probably aware that I consider corn as fit a commodity as any other to contribute to the national revenue, and this is consistent with perfect free trade." A duty on corn, therefore, was considered by that noble Lord as consistent with free trade, and yet if any one person supported a change more ardently than another it was Lord Fitzwilliam. They had been told by the hon. and learned Member for Bath that the best course to be pursued was to speak the truth in language which was courteous but not. offensive. This was good advice, but it was not that on which the hon. and learned Member and others acted. The hon. and learned Gentleman said that the repeal was advocated with a view to give relief to those who were suffering, and by that statement the hon. and learned Gentleman obtained a more ready ear than if they had told the whole of their reasons. It was his opinion that the operations of the Anti-Corn-law League were inconsistent as well as adverse to the principles of the Constitution, and he hoped that the good sense of the
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people would not be led away by their proceedings. He must say, that he thought it would have been well if they had applied their large funds to relieve some of the distress that existed in the country.
Lord John Russellobserved, that he had upon many former occasions expressed his opinion that a duty ought to he imposed upon the importation of foreign corn, and yet, he must confess, entertaining that opinion, that he looked with considerable alarm upon the course that was taken in this debate, because he found that those who had. upon a former occasion, most strongly defended the Corn-law, had abandoned their former arguments, and had taken up a new and an unsafe position. He found, that Members who defended the imposition of a duty on foreign corn, and especially those Members who were the Ministers of the Crown, placed their defence upon grounds that were utterly untenable. The right hon. Gentleman who began this discussion on the part of the Government had described the landowners of this country, who hitherto had represented themselves, and were considered by many writers and speakers on this subject, as the great and central body upon whom mainly all other classes depended, and by whom, in a great degree, the welfare of the country was sustained, the right hon. Gentleman had described them as mere sinecurists, to whom a short time to turn themselves should be allowed, and to whom some compensation should be made when the advantages they possessed by law were done away with. And now, another Member of the Cabinet, the right hon. Baronet the Paymaster of the Forces, came forward and told them that one of the reasons for keeping up this law was to keep up prices in order to enable the landed gentry to provide for the obligations which they had entered into by their marriage settlements and by their settlements on the younger branches of their families. He certainly thought that there were different grounds for believing that a duty might be imposed upon corn, as upon other articles of raw produce, or manufacture, introduced into this country; that a fixed duty of a moderate amount might be imposed upon it, as upon other merchandise, that the importer might know what he had to pay, and that the trade in this article might not be unduly embarrassed by the imposition. He considered, that when they had made an amended tariff, imposing light duties on

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various articles of produce and manufactures, that no difference should be made between foreign corn, and other foreign produce. On that ground, he thought a duty on corn defensible; but if this were to be the manner in which such duties were to be defended—if, on the one hand, all the landed gentlemen of this country were to be represented as no better than sinecurists, and if, on the other, it were said to be the duty of Parliament to provide for the obligations entered into by the marriage settlements of the gentry, then he must say, that really he should be unable—
Sir E. Knatchbullrose, in explanation, and begged to say that all he had intended to affirm was this, that obligations were entered into under the existing law, that these obligations were sometimes in the form of marriage settlements, and that, undoubtedly, if they were now about to deprive those who had entered into such obligations of the means of fulfilling them, then they would do a great injustice, unless they accompanied the act of abolition, with some other measures.
Lord John Russellcontinued to think, after the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, that what he had already stated fully agreed with that explanation. It was the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman that after marriage settlements had been made by landowners, an injustice would be done to them, unless Parliament provided by its measures the means of fulfilling their obligations. He thought that what was meant by this was, not that the Corn-law ought to remain, but that if it were removed, then it would be the duty of Parliament to consider what was the amount of compensation to be given to the noblemen and gentlemen who were interested in maintaining the Corn-law. If the hon. Member for Wolverhampton should carry his motion, he supposed they would hear a similar proposition to that made in the great case of compensation to slaveholders, on the passing of the Slave Emancipation Bill, and that the right hon. Member would then state the amount at which he rated the compensation to be given to the landholders. There was, however, another question upon which the right hon. Gentleman had stated his opinion, and that was upon the speech of the hon. Member for Wallingford. Never had he heard advice given in a more impressive manner than by the right hon. Gentleman to the hon. Member for Wallingford. Never
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had he heard anything more impressive except upon one occasion. It was this: A gentleman, who had unfortunately lost a great deal of money at. the gaming-table, addressed a young man, who showed a propensity to the passion for play; he assured the young man, that it was a vice in which he could not indulge with impunity, that it disquieted the mind, that it caused a total loss of power, that to abandon oneself to it, was for ever to give up all hopes of repose, and in short delivered a sermon, which was far more impressive, coming from such a man, than if it had come from the most virtuous of mankind; and so it was, when the right hon. Gentleman advised the hon. Member for Wallingford " not to mislead those with whom he was acting.'' Now, such advice, coming from him, could not but prove more impressive than coming from any other hon. Member of this House. " The hon. Member for Berkshire says (continued the noble Lord) whatever may be the course he pursues, there must be some change in the Corn-laws; and he told his constituents, that he would not oppose a reasonable modification of those laws. I have no doubt, that when he states this he states his own individual case; but with respect to the Members of the landed interest in this House, they are generally opposed to the proposition of a fixed duty of 8s. which was made in 1841; and I should say the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Kent, as much so as any other hon. Member. The notion he inculcated was, that a change in the Corn-laws, and especially one which would reduce the price of provisions, would be a most calamitous proceeding. I have lately refreshed my memory by looking into the speech of the right hon. Gentleman; but I will not, upon this occasion, trouble the House with the various calculations into which he went; but upon the question of the sugar duties, and upon some other occasions, he pointed out the mischief that would result to the labourers if the price of corn were reduced, and stated that where they got wages of 6s. a-week, they would get only 4s., and, therefore, it was most desirable to oppose any change in the Corn-laws by which foreign corn would be introduced in large quantities, and the price of corn and bread be thereby considerably reduced; but what is his position at present? He is a supporter and a colleague of the First Lord of the Treasury, who told the

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House repeatedly in the shape of a prediction, and this year spoke in confidence and triumph of that prediction having been accomplished, that his object was to reduce the cost of living, and to lower the price of provisions, and he rejoiced in that very consequence which the Paymaster of the Forces warned the House against, and on account of which he culled upon the country to oppose the late Ministers because he considered it a great calamity. With regard to a warning against misleading the country, I do not know that the hon. and learned Gentleman, the Member for Wallingford, has done anything to need such warning; but I am sure he will be impressed with the example as well as the words of the right hon. Gentleman. The hon. Gentleman, the Member for Wallingford, has brought testimony to what he states to be a fact, and which, from the various instances I have heard, seems to me to be not peculiar to that part of the country with which he is conversant— namely, that a great many tenant farmers of this country do now, as they did with regard to the tariff, desire not to be kept in a state of continual uncertainty; for if they are not to have any assurance that this law is not to be swept away, it is a question with them whether they can continue in their farms with any hope of profit. That is a very natural consequence of the course which has been pursued by the present Government, of expectations held out to the farmer that protection would be continued in its then state, of the complete disappointment of those expectations by the adoption of a contrary theory, of the uncertainty which still prevails with respect to the present Corn-law, and of the anonymous publication said to be written by a right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone), who tells the world, that the present law is to be mutable, according to times and circumstances. I think that with all these things going on, it is not wonderful that there should be an inclination on the part of many of the farmers of this country, to give up that protection altogether. Now, with respect to the question itself, which my hon. Friend, the Member for Wolverhampton, has proposed, I must, as I have said, maintain the doctrine I have hitherto held upon this subject. In stating now my opposition to that motion, there is no necessity for me to declare the exact amount of duty which would be a fair compromise between the various interests of the country. My
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opinion, however, is that a moderate fixed duty should be imposed. I expect that would answer two objects, which it appears to me are perfectly consistent with the general doctrine of freedom of trade. Those who hold the doctrine of freedom of trade, whether as writers and philosophers, or as statesmen and politicians, have always said this:—In the first place, that if you were to make a change with regard to interests that had been long established, you should not rush from one extreme to another; but that you ought to make that change a gradual change. Such was the doctrine held by Mr.' Ricardo, a great theoretical philosopher. Such was the doctrine stated in few words by Lord Grenville, a great practical statesman, who said:—
" If the measures that had formerly been adopted for the protection of trade and manufactures were right, let them be continued; if wrong, let them be abrogated; not suddenly, but with that caution with which all practices, however erroneous, engrafted into our usages by time, should be changed."
He then goes on to state that he is against protection as a general principle. There are other grounds upon which Mr. Ricardo rested a defence of some duties. It is the fashion now to say that there are no peculiar burthens upon the land; Mr. Ricardo maintained the opposite opinion. He said he would not advise, in the case of agricultural protection, an immediate abolition of the duty, and he thought there was a case for some duties, because he considered there were burthens which pressed exclusively upon the land, and he went on to state those burthens. Now, Mr. Ricardo may have been entirely mistaken in that opinion, but he has been followed by Mr. M'Culloch, another authority on this subject; and I do not think we ought, without the fullest inquiry, to condemn the opinions of men of their eminence. For my part, I concur in those opinions. I think I should have been able to maintain them if the committee which was moved for this year to inquire into those burdens had been granted. I think that inquiry would have made out that case. But had it made out the reverse, at all events the truth would have been known, and the facts would have been before the country; and I must say. that I think it is a great disadvantage to maintain the statements of Mr. Ricardo and Mr. M'Culloch, when the House re-

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fuses any inquiry to show what those burthens on the land are. It shows an apparent weakness on the part of those who maintain the doctrine that there are any burthens on land. But when my hon. Friend, the Member for Wolverhampton, asks me to agree to go into a committee, with a view to the immediate abolition of the Customs' duties upon corn, I reply, that those words appear to me to be totally unnecessary. My hon. Friend has on former occasions proposed to go into committee of the whole House on the Corn-laws, and I have supported him. In 1839 and 1840, I voted with him upon that resolution. Now, when a Minister proposes any change of the Corn-laws, he proposes simply that the Mouse resolve itself into a committee on those duties. That is the Parliamentary mode of proceeding. What has induced my hon. Friend to vary from that usual form of the House, I imagine, is a desire to elicit from the House an opinion whether or no it is in favour of a total and immediate abolition of those duties. Taking the motion in that view, therefore, I should not think it a wise course to give a vote in support of that motion. My noble Friend, the Member for Sunderland says what is perfectly true in Parliamentary proceedings—that he will go into that committee, and that the resolution which he might support might be a resolution for a moderate fixed duty. It is perfectly true that he has the power of doing so. But when the motion is so framed, without any necessity, and put in this form, I should expect, if I gave my vote in its favour, to find the next day that it was generally understood I voted for the abolition of the Corn-laws. Though I certainly could act in the same way as my noble Friend, technically considered, I think it is far more intelligible to give my negative to the proposition of my hon. Friend. If anybody should hereafter move a resolution in the usual form, to go into committee of the whole House. [" Move, move."] Well, I should have no objection to make such a motion myself, if I saw that any public good were likely to arise from it. I certainly feel that the case of the sliding-scale of duties is more indefensible than ever it was before—so indefensible that it seems an unnecessary taking up the time of the House to say anything further to expose its defects. I consider, if nothing else showed that the speech published as an argument upon the subject, made in the House of Lords by Lord Monteagle, is un-
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answerable, and until something like an answer is given to it, I hold it unnecessary to go into any further argument upon the subject. The general objection to the sliding-scale is this, that it keeps out corn during the time it might be usefully brought into this country; and, on a sudden, brings in corn in a flood when the consumer has less need of it, and the farmer is sure to suffer in consequence." The experience of last year, the noble Lord continued, had still more confirmed this view of the subject. It was not a new subject, as the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade, had endeavoured to argue. But, in fact, the evils of the present law during the past year had been exactly of the very same kind as those of former years under the former law, and were referable to the principle of the sliding-scale. The evils might have been mitigated, but still they were of exactly the same description, and would always remain so while the sliding-scale remained in force. One objection to a fixed duty on corn had been answered the other night by the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. It had been said, that a fixed duty must either be maintained in a time of scarcity, or, if the duty was allowed to fall to a nominal duty at very high prices, then the effect would be the same as under the sliding-scale, and scarcely any corn would be admitted. But the Government having made a small approach to a fixed duty, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade made a statement which went to show that the importer of corn did not wait until corn reached an extravagant price. If this was the case when a small change approaching to a fixed duty was introduced, it was quite clear that under a moderate fixed duty corn would be regularly admitted as it was required, and dealers in it would conduct their operations, not in the spirit of gambling, but would treat it as any other article of regular merchandise. These were his views with respect to the present state of the corn question. He certainly expected, that before long the present Corn-law would be altered; but he should hope that it would be altered in such time, and with such conditions as would enable them to assimilate it to other articles the produce of manufactures, and that such arrangements might be made as would not spread alarm and panic among the great body of the farmers of this country. He trusted, that they would arrange the question in such a manner as that the arrangement

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might not appear a mere yielding to fear, but a wise settlement, founded on the principles of political economy, and a just regard to the welfare of all classes. But if they went on from year to year, and from debate to debate, allowing all the argument to preponderate on one side, and not attempting, in defence of the law, to rest it on any principle on which it was formerly defended, but supporting it merely with the air of apologizing for its continuance for two or three years longer—if this were the tone adopted, he was afraid that they would very soon have to make the settlement of this question in anger, instead of calmness and wisdom. Wishing to deprecate such a conclusion, he should be ready either to support or to make a motion for reconsidering the question of the Corn-law. He could not, however, vote for the proposition before the House, for he did not think his concurrence in such a motion would be an intelligible course, or consistent with the views he held.
Mr. Darbyobserved, that the speeches of the two noble Lords, the Members for London and Sunderland, were full of inconsistencies and misrepresentations, and, as an example of this, the former had first proposed an 8s. duty, then an 8s. duty with the power to issue an Order in Council affecting its operation, and then he gave up the Order in Council. The noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland, now said he would vote for this motion, whilst the noble Lord the Member for London said he would not; but did the noble Lord the Member for Sunderland wish that in so voting he should be considered as desirous to vote for the repeal of the Corn-laws—a thing which the noble Lord the Member for London expressed a fear he would have been suspected of had he voted for this motion? The advocates of repeal had never yet been able, and they never would, to answer this case, that if we had a fixed duty we should be admitting corn at a time when we could supply it ourselves, and that, having it, it could not be maintained at a period of high prices. The inconsistencies he had heard on the opposite side were most extraordinary. One hon. Member said " Give us cheap bread," and another " It will make very little difference on that score;" one said it was a landlord's question, and another that it was a manufacturer's question. With reference to what the hon. Member for
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Wallingford (Mr. Blackstone) had said about 900 signatures to a requisition containing the name of scarcely a single magistrate, and as to the desertion of the farmers by the landlords, he was astonished to hear this, having always heard the landlords accused by the opponents of the Corn-laws as advocates for protection of every kind, and as backing and supporting their tenantry. He contended that the agriculturists had done right in concurring in the Corn Bill of the Government, when he reflected on what was the state of the country at the time—the state to which the late Government had reduced it. The hon. Member for Wallingford could not have formed a Government at that time. But the past year was not a year from which to judge of the present law. They could not satisfactorily judge of the Corn-law at this time. He did not himself believe that the present depression in which the manufacturing interest found itself would be permanent. it was very well to talk of importing corn, so long as they could import it beneficially for the people; but if it was to be imported to an unnecessary extent, which would, no doubt, frequently be the case, they would thus be displacing a great portion of the home agricultural produce, and, consequently, a great part of the labour of the country. If they were to agree to this motion, he was satisfied it would so disarrange labour and capital, and all commercial and agricultural business, that every man who voted for it would have cause to regret the vote he had given in favour of it. A fixed duty could not be maintained, in his opinion, in case of a defective harvest; and considering this to be a true principle, and reflecting on the many other arguments that appeared to him convincing against this motion, he could not give his assent to it. He had never heard any such as sertion on the part of any Member of the Government, that this law was only to be maintained for a short time; all that he had heard was, that the right hon. Baronet would not pledge himself to maintain this or any other law of a mere commercial character at all times and under all circumstances and, certainly, this he would say, that if the Government, when they passed the present Corn-law, contemplated at the time they brought it forward as, professedly, the best which in their judgment they could introduce, any further change, they were guilty of

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a great breach of faith, and one, would never give his support such a Government for another moment
Debate adjourned.
The House adjourned at ten minutes after twelve.

Preamble
MINUTES]BILLS. Public..—1a- Queen's Bench 2aTestimony in On Colonies.
Private.1a Faversham Navigation.
Reported,—Newport (Monmouth) Gas; Norland Estate
Improvement
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By the Earl of Radnor, from Arbroath and Othery, for the Total sad Immediate Repeal of the Corn Laws; also from W. H. Stuckey, for Inquiry into his plan for Filtering Water.—By Viscount Strangford, from the Clergy of gust Kent, against the Tithe Communication Act.—By the Marquess of Clanricarde, and the Earl of Clare, from six places, against the Irish Poor Law.—By the Marquess of Lansdowne, from the North Wilts Reform Association, against the Registration of Voters Act—By Lord Cottenham, from Chester, against the Bankruptcy Act—By the Earl of Stanhope, from Bucks, for Protection to the Industrious Classes of the United Kingdom.

REPEAL OF TUB UNION — MISREPRESENTATION.
Lord Broughamsaid, that it was necessary for him to correct a gross misrepresentation concerning a noble Friend of his, formerly Lord Althorp, who had been referred to on that question which was so ably brought before their Lordships by the noble Earl (the Earl of Roden) on Tuesday evening. It had been represented, that his noble Friend had declared, that if all the Irish Members were for the repeal of the union, he should be for granting that repeal; that was to say, assenting to the dismemberment of the empire. Never was there a more entire or a more gross misrepresentation, and he had the authority of his noble Friend himself, who was unable to attend in his place, to say so. He should be sorry, after hearing such a statement, that a single day should pass without setting it right. It implied that his noble Friend had tempted the Irish Members to come over to the repeal by holding out to them the hope of succeeding in such a detestable, if not grossly absurd scheme. It was almost impossible to conceive how such a fancy came into existence; but as there was generally some foundation for every such fabrication, bow-ever false, in this ease the foundation was this—Some hon. Member, when his noble Friend had made the declaration that civil war itself would be preferable to the dismemberment and destruction of the empire —some hon. Member had put the case, that supposing all the Irish Members were favourable to the repeal, and asked what his noble Friend would do then? His noble Friend had given the only answer which a statesman could give to such an absurd question. His noble Friend had said, he would wait till that time came, and then be Would tell the hon. Member what he would do. His noble Friend probably remembered what happened as to the union with Scotland. Ten years after the union with that country, the Scotch Members had voted for

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the repeal of the union. It happened, that they were aggrieved by some tax. [The Lord Chancellor: " The malt-tax."] And they thought it right to vote for the repeal of the union. But if all the Irish Members were, on account of the Poor-law, or on any other account, to imitate the Scotch Members on Lord Seaford's motion, and vote for the repeal of the union, the consequence would be that all the English, Welsh, and Scotch would only stand more firmly together, to preserve unimpaired the integrity of the empire.
Lord Campbellagreed with all the sentiments of his noble and learned Friend, but he rose to set him right on an historical fact. The Repeal of the Union with Scotland had been moved in that House, and lost by only a majority of one.
The Earl of Wicklowsaid, that nobody in his senses could suppose that Lord Althorp had ever given so absurd an answer.

CORN LAWS — BUCKINGHAMSHIRE MEETING.
Earl Stanhopesaid, that in presenting, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, the petition from the county meeting recently held at Aylesbury, it was not his intention to trouble their Lordships at any length; but he trusted that he might be permitted to make a few observations, in justice, not only to the petitioners, but also to the subject, which was of extreme and paramount importance. This petition was the more justly entitled to be considered, as the real, genuine, unbiassed expression of the opinion of the farmers of that county, in consequence of a circumstance which, in all other respects, he must lament, namely, that the meeting from which this petition proceeded, was not suggested, or supported, or presided over, by any of the great landed proprietors of Buckinghamshire. It had, therefore, been shown by this memorable example that the farmers of Buckinghamshire would not act with that servile submission to their landlords which had so frequently, but so unjustly, been charged against them, and that they did not consider the Corn-law to be what it was constantly, but falsely, represented to be, a landlord's question, in which the tenants had no interest whatever. The Corn-law was primarily a labourer's question. It had immediate, and direct, and most important influence, both in the employment and the remuneration of labour. One of
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the first as well as the most calamitous effects which arose from a depression of agriculture was a diminution in the means of employing labourers, and a decrease in the amount of wages, and this had recently been the case in different counties in which the labourers received a scanty pittance of 9s. a week, but which pittance, scanty as it was, had now been reduced to 7s. a week. He held that the labouring classes whether employed in agriculture or in any other occupation, had an undoubted right to demand full and effectual protection of their interests, and that it was not only their right, but their bounden duty to oppose, by all legal and constitutional means, any measure which would tend either to deprive them of employment or to diminish their wages. This was also a farmer's question, for those who employed their capital, their skill, and industry, in the cultivation of the soil, had as good a right to some return for their capital as if they had embarked it in cotton mills, or any other manufacture. He said, that they had a better right, inasmuch as they contributed—which the manufacturers did not, in any fair or just proportion—to the support of those workmen who might be deprived of employment, whether through the introduction of new machinery or from depression of trade, and because their distresses could not be attributed, as was the case in manufactures, to over speculation and over production, which naturally tended to glut the market. But were it solely or exclusively a landlord's question, he should wish to know whether a landlord who invested money in land and farm buildings had not as much claim for a return for his capital as if he had invested it in the public funds; and their Lordships must be aware that if rents were not paid the dividends would cease to be paid also. Notwithstanding this community of interests in the agricultural classes, this petition was not adopted unanimously nor without free discussion, nor without having heard the arguments of a noble Earl who was an advocate for free trade and of an hon. Baronet who was in favour of protection. That meeting- exhibited a striking contrast to those held by the advocates of free trade in corn, where no freedom of discussion existed and where no speech could be delivered in opposition to the views there entertained, without the speaker either

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being silenced or ejected by the chairman. But this objection was taken, ft was said, this meeting ought to have take n place last year, when the Corn Bill and the new tariff were still in progress. He would fully admit that such might be the case, but he doubted whether, at the time those measures were in progress, the agricultural classes in general were sufficiently enlightened on the subject. Now, he (Earl Stanhope) said, that at no period ought they to be so active and so energetic in their own defence as at the present moment. If the meeting had been held last year, the opinion then expressed would have been founded on a just and reasonable anticipation of the results which the measures now before Parliament were calculated to produce; but in the present case they had proceeded on the bitter experience of destructive and disastrous effects of those measures. Another assertion was, that the meeting was premature. Could it be premature to hold a county meeting in defence of agriculture when they knew that a depression of from 20 to 30 per cent, had taken place in all articles of agricultural produce, and when they knew in many instances that no rent for land could be paid except from the capital of the tenant? They knew, too, that tenants who had left their farms were unwilling to take others at any rent, and that with a maximum duty of 20 s. foreign wheat was now sold at Liverpool at a profit of 3s. But this was not all—they were threatened with the introduction of a Canada Corn bill, which, as far as regarded the whole continent of North America, would entirely abrogate the Corn-law of last Session and establish in its place a low fixed duty. It was said that the last harvest was an abundant one. He denied that it was so in the large corn growing counties of Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex, and that part of Kent in which he resided. If the harvest had been abundant could there have been such an importation as three millions of foreign corn. In 1834 the price of corn was as low as at present, but then, for the three preceding years the harvests had been deficient. The present depression of price was solely attributable to the new Corn-law. Those who recommended delay and procrastination, and who thought that county meetings were pre-
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ings should be too long delayed. Amongst the various evils and grievances which now afflicted and alarmed the country, there was not one which might not be remedied by legislative interference, and such being the case, redress could not be refused without the most flagrant injustice, and could not be delayed without imminent danger to all classes of the community; and it required not the gift of prophecy to see if these evils should be left unremedied, and county meetings should then be held, that those meetings would not content themselves with demanding as was done in the county of Bucks, the restoration of the former protection to native industry, but that they would require that organic change in the constitution which whatever dangers might attend it, would still appear to be preferable to the continuance of the present system. It had been said at the Anti Corn-law League, that the speakers at this meeting were the advocates of monopoly. Those who made that assertion were ignorant of the signification of the word monopoly. If any degree of protection, however, moderate, was to be called monopoly, he would wish to know what trade, what occupation in this country did not deserve to be called a monopoly? The two principles on which this petition was founded, were protection to native industry against the competition of foreigners, who paid a much less amount of taxation than we did, and that it was the paramount duty of the Government to provide profitable employment for the people. He had no doubt that these principles, founded as they were in truth all the flimsy theories of the present age-and that they would be reasserted and resumed in all their original strength, but he believed that could not be accomplished until the evils of the present system should be further demonstrated to the country— and until the country had passed through a series of sufferings greater than those by which any other nation had ever been visited. The noble Earl concluded by moving that the petition do lie on the Table.
The Duke of Buckingham,begged to give the petition his warmest support. He entertained a firm conviction that the measure of the Government last year had been in the highest degree prejudicial to the agricultural interest, and he was there-

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fore not at all surprised at the demand made by the farmers for that protection to which they justly considered themselves entitled. When he looked back to that measure he remembered perfectly well that he had warned his noble Friends that their measure would be altogether unsatisfactory to all parties; that while it would in no degree satisfy the opponents of the Corn-law of that period, it would inflict upon the farming interest extreme loss and suffering. He had since found no reason to alter the opinion he then expressed; on the contrary, he had become more and more convinced of the accuracy of that opinion, namely, that the alteration of the law, while it satisfied no party, would be greatly prejudicial to the agriculturists. He wished the noble Duke, who represented the Government in that House, would adopt, in reference to the existing Anti-Corn-law agitation, the same firm language which the other night he had, at so timely a period, made use of with respect to another species of agitation which was disturbing the sister country. He greatly wished that the noble Duke, or some Member of the Government would come forward, and at once and distinctly state what were their intentions as to the present Corn-law; and state whether or no it was their purpose to abide by that law as it now stood, and not to suffer any further alteration. Bad as that law in its altered shape was, yet it was better than the free trade which was so loudly advocated; and, at all events, it was in the highest degree desirable that the Government should definitively and explicitly let the agriculturists and the country know what their real intentions were. Before he sat down, he must add one word; the noble Earl had stated that the meeting in question had not been attended by the leading landed proprietors of the county; the fault that it had not been so attended lay with the noble Earl himself, if the noble Earl bad communicated his intentions to the gentry of the county, no doubt he would have been supported by the presence of the landed proprietors on that occasion. When a county meeting was called, the noble Earl must be aware that it was usual to communicate with the gentlemen of the county upon the subject previously; but he had reason to believe that, except in one or two cases, his noble Friend had not adopted this course on the occasion in question. The only intelli
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gence which reached the gentry of the county as to the intentions of the noble Earl was through the medium of the newspapers; and the noble Earl must, therefore, lay the blame of the omission he had pointed out, not upon the landowners of Buckinghamshire, but upon the want of courtesy of which, though of course, with no discourteous motives, he was himself chargeable in reference to them. On the occasion referred to, he would add, there was no sort of influence made use of, but every farmer present expressed his opinions boldly and freely. He gave his full adhesion to the honesty of purpose which pervaded that meeting, and he only regretted that, in consequence of the mismanagement of the noble Earl himself, there had not been thousands present, instead of hundreds.
Earl Stanhopewas delighted at the sentiments expressed upon the subject by the noble Duke. The only reason why he had not applied upon the occasion referred to for the inestimable assistance of the noble Duke was, that he considered he stood no chance of being favoured with his assistance any more on that than on certain other occasions in which he had solicited the co-operation of the noble Duke, in reference, for instance, to the Society for the Protection of British Industry, to which he had unsuccessfully endeavoured to induce the noble Duke to lend the sanction of his influential name. If the coble Duke had not been indisposed to support his (Earl Stanhope's) well-known views, why had he not come to support him at that meeting? For himself he must say, that he did not anticipate the support of either of the great contending parties, until their pockets were thoroughly emptied, which he had reason to believe would very soon be the case.
The Duke of Buckinghamreadily admitted that he had declined the honour of becoming a Member of the society of which the noble Earl was president; but he had done so because he did not think it was likely to be a useful society; and he was not aware that it had yet effected any good; but that was no reason why the noble Earl should suppose if he had invited him in the usual way that he would not have attended and given him his support at the county meeting. No communication had been made, except in a few cases, with the gentlemen of Buckingham-

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shire. That being the case, as the noble Earl admitted, he must repeat that the county had not been treated very courteously by the noble Earl, He did not mean to charge the noble Earl with discourtesy, bat be considered that he had acted a mistaken part on the occasion. If be had called the meeting in the usual way he would readily have attended it.
Earl Fitzwilliamasked whether the noble Baron opposite, the President of the Council (who bad risen in advance to the Table), were going to speak. [Lord Wharncliffe: " No."] What not speak ! He must confess himself altogether surprised. What I when the noble Duke opposite, himself once connected with the Government, by whose influence and the influence of whose principles the Government at the late election bad been enabled to take such a position had been enabled to return to Parliament a House of Commons, which might be considered, par excellence, the landlords' House of Commons, when this noble Duke put to the Government, his quondam associates and protogés, a distinct question as to what were their intentions with respect to a matter in which he and his Friends in the landlords' House of Commons were so in-terested—considering, too, that it was a question upon a subject now actually before Parliament for consideration, it was really most surprising, most extraordinary, that neither the noble Baron, nor the noble Duke, nor the noble Earl, nor any of the seven or eight Members of the Government who were then sitting on the opposite Benches, would condescend to make the noble Duke who asked them whether they meant to make any further alteration in the Corn-laws, the slightest answer. The noble Earl told them, that in some districts the farmers were quitting their farms in every direction, and would not take other farms, even though they might have them without paying rent. He told them that the miserable pittance lately received by the agricultural labourers of 9s. a-week, was being very generally reduced to the far more miserable pittance of 7s. a-week. Now, this was surely a frightful state of things. And here he would beg to suggest to the consideration of noble Lords, whether the distress of the manufacturing districts was not one of the causes which had led to the fall of wages in the agricultural districts. If the noble Earl opposite had taken the advice which he gave him
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some time ago, and had taken the chair at the board of guardians at Sevenoaks union, in one day the noble Earl would have discovered one source of the agricultural distress in the number of labourers who, having formerly left the agricultural for the manufacturing districts, were returning now to the agricultural districts, in consequence of the want of employment in the manufacturing districts. The noble Earl seemed very sure that Parliament had in its own hands the remedy for all the evils which now afflicted the country. If so, the noble Earl was, in all probability, prepared with some sketches of the legislative measures upon the various parts of this complicated subject, which the noble Earl thought would answer that end, and would really impart them to the House. For his own part, he was very glad that the Canada Corn Bill was to be introduced, against which the noble Earl protested; he regarded it as a very clear and satisfactory indication of what were the intentions of the Government as to the Corn-laws. He agreed in an observation that fell from the noble Duke, that nothing could be more injurious to the agricultural interest, both landlords and tenants, than the silence of her Majesty's Government as to their future conduct with respect to the Corn-laws.
Lord Wharncliffehad previously risen to move the adjournment of the House, as he was not aware that any question had been put to him, or to any other Member of her Majesty's Government, by his noble Friend. If the noble Duke did ask any question, he should be most sorry to have shown any apparent want of respect in not answering; but having acted so recently together in the same Cabinet, he was sure that his noble Friend would acquit him of intending to show his noble Friend any want of respect. With respect to the question itself, which was repeated by the noble Earl, he could only say that he did not think that there was any necessity to give a further answer than had been given at the commencement of this Session, on the motion of the noble Lord opposite, and a similar answer had been given in the House of Commons, that the Government did not intend to propose any further alteration in the Corn-law during the present Session. There was a debate at the present moment going on in the House of Commons on the subject, when the Government would give fresh assur-

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ance on the subject, if necessary. He did not see what further answer could be given than that already given, that they did not intend to propose any alteration of the present law. He denied that the Canada Corn Bill was any alteration in the Corn-law of last year. He said this distinctly, for the measure was distinctly announced last year as a portion of the Government plan, and when the bill came to be discussed, he would undertake to show that, so far from this measure being likely to prove injurious to the farmer it would be advantageous to him.
Lord Beaumontperfectly agreed with the noble Earl that the silence of the Government as to their future conduct with respect to the Corn-laws had been productive of great evil to the agricultural interest.
The Duke of Wellingtonwould remind the House that about a fortnight or three weeks ago he had stated that he had given notice himself last Session respecting the introduction of the Canada Corn Bill, but he now found that his noble Friend the President of the Board of Trade had done so. Indeed, the noble Baron (Lord Monteagle) opposite admitted at the commencement of the Session that such notice had been given.
The Earl of Radnorbelieved that such notice had been given, but still the agriculturists might be taken by surprise by the extent of the measure; but he had no wish to canvass the Canada Corn Bill at present. They had been told that the Corn-law of last year was only an experiment, and that it had not yet had a fair trial. Now he wished to know when it would be considered to have had a fair trial, so that they might deal with it accordingly. For his part he was perfectly satisfied that it was altogether a failure. He was convinced that a great change was rapidly taking place in the minds of the agricultural class, as to the effect of the Corn-laws, and that the opinion was daily gaining ground among them that it was for their interest that there should be a change in the whole system.
Lord Monteaglesaid that, in reference to what had fallen from the noble Duke, he recollected incidentally to have stated, in the early part of the Session, that he distinctly understood that the Government had declared last year that they intended during the present year to introduce a measure relative to the importation of
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com from Canada; but he confessed that he did not believe that either the Parliament or the public could then at all anticipate its extent. He was not then acquainted with the nature of it, but now that he was, it should have his consent and entire support. While he was on his legs he would suggest to the noble Duke (the Duke of Buckingham), and other noble Lords who were such strenuous advocates of protection to the agriculturists, that if they considered the subject fully, they would at last be satisfied, that as long as they asked for protection under a sliding-scale, that the operation would be the same, and that the speculators in corn would keep it back from the market until the duties were at the lowest point, when they would bring a much greater supply into the market than was immediately called for, or than the exigency of the case required; when the result would be, that in consequence of this large quantity being swept into the market, their prices would most seriously and rapidly fall, and that at a period when the farmer felt it necessary to bring his new crop to market. This, he believed, would be found to be the inevitable result of all sliding-scales. He believed that within a very short period a serious and extensive change of opinion had taken place in the minds of agriculturists on the subject of the Corn-laws. He was glad to learn that at the meeting at Aylesbury, when this petition was adopted, both parties had been listened to with the greatest attention, and that the opinions on both sides were fairly and candidly expressed, and that the matter was fully discussed; and alt that he asked for, as a friend of a free-trade in corn, was that opportunities should be afforded for discussing the subject, and he had no fear as to the result. When he used the expression free-trade in corn, he begged it to be distinctly understood that he included in it the imposition of any countervailing duties as an equivalent for any taxes that might be found to fall exclusively on any particular class, and still less did he except the imposition of a duty for the purposes of revenue.
Earl Stanhopeobserved, that that was not the meaning the Anti Corn-law League attached to the term " a free trade in corn."
Lord Monteaglesaid, that he had nothing to do with the opinions entertained by that body, but such as he had

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stated were the principles to which he adhered.
Lord Ashburtonsaid, there was one admission of the noble Lord who had last spoken in which he concurred, and it was most important that it should be noted by the country, and especially by the farmers: namely, that the present depression of the value of agricultural produce had no connexion whatever with the Corn-law of last year. That admission was very important, and he fully concurred in the opinion that, if the old Corn-law had remained in existence, the same depreciation would have taken place; it was not owing to any alteration of the Corn-law, or to the Tariff, or to the importation of cattle. There was another part of the noble Lord's statement in which he concurred, and he had stated the same opinion to their Lordships before the alteration of the Corn-law—that it was difficult to keep up a sliding scale in the face of a constant deficiency of supply in corn. If they established the scale on the principle that the produce of the country was as ten, and the consumption as twelve or thirteen, it was clear that the speculator had only to wait his time, and he would be sure to come in at the low duty. That was the difficulty. What he maintained was, that the farmers of this country were entitled, in some shape or other, to protection, and to a protection about that given by the scale now existing; he thought it protected, perhaps, a little too high, and he should oppose any alteration for the extension of protection. But as to the power of protection persons might differ, and he should always be ready (without caring one straw about being reproached with changing his opinion) to make a concession for the benefit of the country. He had no hesitation in saying, that if any noble Lord could convince him that even the abolition of these laws, would be productive of benefit to the community, he would support the proposition. With regard to the alteration which was said to be coming, and which had been announced as part of the scheme of last year, if he could make up his mind that it was dealing unfairly as to the amount of protection to which the agricultural interest was entitled, he should not vote for it in any shape; but whilst it would, in his opinion, be of very slight operation, as far as he could make out, the measure would be rather beneficial to
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the landed interest. The principle on which he argued, was the difficulty of maintaining the sliding-scale if there were a real deficiency of supply. Suppose it were to turn out that we did not produce sufficient for our own consumption, a small amount of grain from Canada would fill up the deficiency, and prevent our markets from being opened to the great and overwhelming supply from the Baltic. His impression was, that the probable tendency of the Canada Corn-bill would be to protect the landed interest of this country against the corn that would otherwise come from the Baltic.
Lord Broughamsaid, as noble Lords had stated that they retained their former opinion upon this subject, he rose merely to say, that there had not been any change in his opinion. At the same time, as his noble Friend had observed, if he found his opinion to be wrong, he should feel no shame in abandoning it. He thought that corn was an unfit subject for taxation, and that if a tax was levied upon it at all, for a revenue, it should be taken at the mill, or on the farm, and not on importation, which raised the price of the whole, whilst the revenue was levied only on a part. He differed, however, from some who objected to the Corn-law. He did not agree with those who held that it was a religious question, except in the sense in which other similar questions might be called religious; and he did not consider that the question of " cheap bread for the people" wag involved in the Corn-law at all. He did not think that the abolition of the law would materially diminish the price of bread, though he thought it had a material tendency to enable the manufacturers to lower wages, and thereby indirectly it had a tendency to diminish the means of subsistence of the labouring classes. He differed, however, from another class of persons, who went about the country and told the agriculturists that the Corn-law lowered the price of food, and the manufacturers that it raised it; whereas, they should, in good faith and in common sense, hold the same doctrine to both.
Petition to lie on the Table.

SCOTLAND—REPEAL OF THE UNION.
Lord Campbell said,he wished to correct an inaccuracy into which he had fallen, respecting the majority on the subject of the repeal of the Union with Scotland in 1713. It appeared, that on the 1st of

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June, 1713, a motion was made in that House for a dissolution of the Scottish union, when on a division there were, of peers present, fifty-four on one side, and fifty-four on the other; of the proxies, there were thirteen for the affirmative, and seventeen for the negative; so the motion was lost by a majority of four. Though there was a general feeling against (he union in Scotland at the time when the measure was passed, that feeling was dissipated before long, and the country was for the last half-century most favourable to the measure. He hoped that the feeling which at present existed in Ireland would pass away, and that the good sense and the cooler judgment of the people of that country would lead to similar opinions.
Their Lordships adjourned.