Sitting of 24 April 1843

Preamble
MINUTES.) ELECTION PETITIONS.—Of George de la Poer Beresford, against the Election for Athlone Borough.—Of John Whyatt, against the Election for Nottingham Town.
BILLS. Public.—1°. Poor-law Amendment (Ireland); Fines and Penalties (Ireland).
Reported.—Testimony in the Colonies; Apprehension of Offenders.
Private.—2°. Maidstone Railway.
Reported.—St. Helen's Waterworks; Neath Harbour; Liverpool Docks; Preston Waterworks; Milne's Free School.
3°and passed:—Norland Estate.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Colonel G. Langton, Sergeant Murphy, Dr. Bowring, the Lord Mayor, Colonel Fox, Lord H. Vane, Sir G. Staunton, Lord J. Russell, Lord Howick, Lord A. Lennox, Sir J. Easthope, Colonel Wood, and Messrs. Busfeild, Bernal, Thorneley, Greene, R. Yorke, Roebuck, T. Duncombe, Smith, S. Crawford,

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Ewart, Toured, Ord. G. Knight, Cayley, Phillpotts, V. Smith, W. Ellis, E. Buller, G. Cavendish, C Howard, C. Villiers, and B. Wood, from an immense number of places, against the Educational Clauses of the Factory Bill.—By Mr. T. Egerton, from Chester, against the Union of the Sees of St. Asaph and Bangor.— By Mr. Macaulay, from Edinburgh, for Medical Reform.—By Mr. Broadwood, from Bridgewater, against the Bankruptcy Act.—By Sir G. Staunton, and Messrs. C. Villiers, Hastie, Ewart, and Stansfield, from a number of places, for the Total and Immediate Repeal of the Corn-laws.—By Colonel Wood, from Hay, Crickchowell, and Huggate, against the Ecclesiastical Courts Bill.—By Lord John Russell, from Saltash, in favour of the Municipal Corporations Bill.—By Mr. Smith, from Norwich, and Cossey, for the Repeal of the Income-tax.—By T. Duncombe, from Kingston-upon-Hull, and Sutton Ash-Held, for Inquiry into the Trial of William Jones for Sedition.—From Fleet-street, and its neighbourhood, in favour of the Health of Towns Bill.—From the Kinsale Union, for Amending the Irish Poor-law.—From Cork, against the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Act.

AFFAIRS OF SERVIA.
Mr. D'Israeliwished to put certain questions to her Majesty's Government with respect to the affairs of Servia. The House would recollect, that by the treaty of 1840, the principal powers of Europe, among whom, of coarse, were, England and Russia, had entered into stipulations to maintain the integrity and independence of the Ottoman empire. He, had, however, been informed, upon very competent authority, that the Cabinet of St. Petersburg had insisted on interfering in the internal affairs of one of the provinces of the Turkish empire, which was contrary to the wishes and in direct opposition to the policy of the Sultan and of the other powers. The questions he wished to put to her Majesty's Government were, whether they considered that such conduct on the part of the cabinet of St. Petersburg was in unison with the stipulations of the treaty of July, 1840; and whether, in case the cabinet of St. Petersburg should persist in that conduct, it was the intention of her Majesty's Government to uphold the integrity and independence of the Ottoman empire and the sovereignty of the Sultan?
Sir R. Peelsaid, that it was difficult to answer the questions of the hon. Gentle man without entering into a very long explanation. He would state to the House what was the subject of controversy between Russia and the Porte, according to the latest information which the Government had received upon the subject. The discussion between the two powers was still going on; and he need scarcely state to the House, that although this country had no direct or immediate connection with Servia, it was the desire of her Majesty's Government to use any influence which
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they could legitimately employ for the purpose of preventing collisions, and to give such advice as might be in unison with the interests and dignity of the Porte. The question at issue between Russia and the Porte was this:—There were three treaties at least between the Porte and Russia, with respect to the administration of affairs in the East, of which the most important was the treaty of Adrianopte. In consequence of that treaty the Porte issued, in the year 1829, a hatti scheriff, from which the following was an extract:—
"We, therefore, in fulfilment of the said eighth article of the treaty of Bucharest, as well as in pursuance of the stipulations contained in the treaty of Adrianople, and of the contents of the before-mentioned separate treaty, have given our imperial permission to the Servian deputies to represent to us the claims and wishes of their nation; and we have likewise given the Servians leave freely to exercise in their own country their own mode of worship, and that they may elect their own chiefs from among themselves."
It was in consequence of that stipulation that the present discussion had arisen. In the month of October, 1842, the then ruler of Servia had been forcibly deposed by an insurrection, and the present governor of Servia was appointed in his place. It had been urged by Russia that the late ruler had been deposed by military violence, and that the election of his successor had not been conducted in unison with the treaty of Adrianople. That was the subject of the controversy which was now pending between Russia and the Porte; and communications had been had with both powers by the English Cabinet, which he need hardly say, was anxious that the question should be fairly and amicably settled.

WAYS AND MEANS—EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The report of the committee of Ways and Means authorising the issue of 9,000,000 l. of Exchequer-bills, to make good part of the supplies of the year, was brought up.
On the question that the resolution be read a second time,
Mr. Williamscomplained of the high interest which was paid on Exchequer-bills, and he begged to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman opposite to the subject. The Government was at this moment paying l¾d. per day interest on Exchequer-bills, which was equal to 2.¾ per cent, per annum. At the same time

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money was not worth more than 1½ or 2 per cent., and good bills to any amount could be discounted at 1½ per cent. Common tradesmen's bills were discounted at 2 per cent. At this time Exchequer-bills were at a premium of 69 s. or 70 s., which was equal to 3½ per cent, or a higher sum than the interest of the bills. He thought that was conclusive evidence that the interest was much too high. It was a remarkable circumstance that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was paying a much higher interest now than was paid during the seven years, from 1831 to 1837 inclusive. Daring that time, 172,000,000 l. of Exchequer-bills were issued at l½d. per day, which, together with the deficiency bills, amounting to 148,000,000 l., making up a sum of 320,000,000 l., were all kept in circulation at an interest of l½d. per day. One half per cent, was paid less then than now, although money was much higher in value at that time than at present. Lord Al thorp issued the bills at 1½d. per day, and his successor, Lord Monteagle, continued the same rate of interest. It was only in July, 1837, when, from particular circumstances, the value of money rose very considerably, and more than 5 percent, was paid for interest, that the interest of Exchequer-bills was raised. At that time the bullion in. the Bank did not exceed 4,000,000 l., while at present it was upwards of 12,000,000 l. He counselled the Chancellor of the Exchequer, therefore, to issue his Exchequer-bills at a lower rate of interest, and he would find it was much easier to raise the rate, if that were necessary, than to lower it. It would be better still were the Chancellor of the Exchequer to fund all the Exchequer-bills at the present price of consols, and he would save a large sum for interest. The right hon. Gentleman had already saved a sum of 262,000 l. in that way; and if he funded all the Exchequer-bills he would save a larger sum. The country might save, too, all the expense of the department for issuing the bills, which amounted to 18,000 l. a year, besides sundry other expences. Either the right hon. Gentleman should fund the whole of the Exchequer-bills, or he should reduce the interest to 1½d.; and he might reduce the interest to 1¼d. To continue the present system was throwing away the public money unnecessarily. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was afraid of the money dealers;
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but there was no occasion for apprehension; they would gladly come into his terms. He hoped, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider this question, and issue a fresh notice. He would guarantee the right hon. Gentleman that he might issue any amount of bills he pleased at l½d. per day, and get the money for them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved that he had heard the same observations from the hon. Gentleman before, and the same recommendations. At this period, however, when the arrangements for the year were so far advanced, it was impossible those recommendations could be acted on. The hon. Gentleman had hardly done justice to him when he said that Lord Althorp had reduced the interest of Exchequer-bills, for he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had reduced it to the rate Lord Althorp found it at when he came into office. Before the interest could be reduced there was such a variety of circumstances to be taken into consideration, that it was not possible to say beforehand that the interest should be reduced. At the present time, be would repeat, it was impossible to take the hon. Gentleman's recommendations into consideration without disturbing all the financial arrangements for the year.
Resolution agreed to, and a bill accordingly was ordered to be brought in.
On the question that the Order of the Day for the House to go into a committee of supply be read,

PORTUGAL, BRAZILS, CANADA, AND JAMAICA.
Lord John Russellsaid, he would take that opportunity of putting some questions to the right hon. Baronet respecting the commercial treaties which this country was now negotiating, and about which it might be expected that the Government would give the House some information. He had taken an opportunity before the House adjourned for the Easter holidays to put similar questions to the right hon. Gentleman; and he wished to know whether those negotiations had terminated favourably or unfavourably. It was not his wish to ask respecting negotiations still in progress, and whether they were likely to proceed favourably or not; but respecting two of the negotiations in progress, he had seen it announced in the public papers that they bad terminated, and concerning them he thought the

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House should receive some information. With respect to the negotiations with Portugal, it had been stated in an official paper, the Gazette of Lisbon, that the terms proposed by the English Government had been finally rejected. He had seen it also stated in the public papers, that with respect to the Brazils the negotiations had entirely failed, and that the Gentleman who had been sent to that country was about to return home. If it was true that those negotiations had failed, and were at an end, he thought he might fairly ask that some communications should be made to the House. It was of great importance to all persons engaged in those trades which would be affected by those negotiations, to know whether there were an end to the negotiations or not, and on what footing the trade with those countries would be placed. He did not much wish to enter at present into the question of the policy to be adopted if they had failed. They would, probably, at an early period, have an opportunity of discussing that subject. All he wished to ask at present was, whether the statement they had seen in the public papers were correct? He also wished to put two questions to the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies. One was with respect to the bill which the noble Lord said he would introduce on the subject of Canada corn. He had asked the noble Lord at a previous period of the Session, whether he had received any deputations from the Governor-general of Canada with respect to the bill; and he now wished to learn from the noble Lord whether he intended to proceed with it? The noble Lord had informed the House that immediately after Easter he proposed to bring in a bill on the subject, but he did not see any such notice on the paper; he wished, therefore, to know what course the noble Lord intended to pursue with respect to that subject. There was another question which he wished to put to the noble Lord, with respect to the act that had been passed in Jamaica, levying certain duties on the produce of England and Ireland. It was stated on a former occasion by an hon. Gentleman that the duties levied on the produce of Ireland, in the island of Jamaica, amounted to 40 per cent. Last year they had passed a bill which had been first introduced by his right hon. Friend the Member for Taunton, and
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taken up by the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, who, with the support of the Government, had carried forward the bill, by which all the differential duties in the colonies were reduced to 7 and 4 per cent. It was quite contrary to the spirit of that act that a bill should be passed in Jamaica to levy such heavy duties on the produce of this country when imported into that island. He supposed, however, that the Government was sensible of the importance of the subject, and had decided to interfere with the royal authority and refuse to sanction the measures of the Jamaica legislature. He had stated the points on which he wished to have information, and he begged to ask for answers to his questions. He hoped the noble Lord would state, with respect to the act of the Jamaica legislature, that he would be ready to lay the papers connected with it before the House. There were other papers, too, connected with the island of Jamaica which were generally laid on the table of the House before this period of the Session; and he hoped the noble Lord would take the opportunity of laying all those papers together before the House.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, that before the holidays, an hon. Gentleman had put questions to him concerning our negotiations with Brazils and Portugal, and on that hon. Gentleman giving him notice that he intended to ask those questions of him again, he had requested that hon. Gentleman to postpone his questions till the morrow. To-morrow, then, he should be prepared to answer both as to Portugal and Brazils, and he begged to postpone the answer to the noble Lord to the same period.
Lord Stanleysaid, with regard to the Canada Corn Bill, the information that had been received from the Governor-General of Canada was ready to be laid on the Table, though it had been only recently received. Probably within a few days he should be enabled to give notice of the precise day on which he should move for leave to bring in a bill on the subject. Certainly the Government would take an early day for bringing on the discussion on this subject. As to the second question of the noble Lord, he must remark that the act complained of was only passed for nine months. He had only that morning received private information from the Board of Trade, to which, as the noble Lord knew, all such questions were

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referred, that the Board had taken the subject into consideration. Although he entirely concurred with the noble Lord in his objection to these high duties, in some cases amounting to nearly 40 per cent., yet he thought the noble Lord was rather hasty in concluding that it was a matter of course that the Government should advise her Majesty to withhold her sanction to the bill, which was passed in the first instance for nine months, and so compel the legislature of Jamaica to assemble at a most inconvenient season. He was quite prepared to say that the amount of these duties was highly objectionable in principle, and the Governor of Jamaica had been instructed to refuse his assent to any future bill for imposing similar duties.
Viscount Howickwished to know on what grounds the governor had sanctioned the present bill.
Lord Stanleysaid, he had not recently received any communication from the governor; he was therefore unable to answer the question. Neither had he received the official report from the Board of Trade, and when he had received that report, he should immediately, and he hoped by the next packet, communicate with the Governor-general.
Subject at an end.
Order of the Day read.
On the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair,

COLONIAL CLERGY—WEST-INDIAN MAGISTRATES.
Mr. Williamssaid, there were three of the voles to be submitted to the House to-night, which, he thought, in fairness to the public, ought to be withdrawn. The first was vote No. 13, of 12,190 l. to be paid for the clergy of British North America and New Zealand. He objected particularly to paying the clergy of North America, for whose use the vote was principally designed, as all of it except 600 l. which went to the clergy of New Zealand, went to them. When he looked at the condition of the people of this country, taxed to pay the money, and looked to the condition of the people of our North American colonies, who were the most lightly taxed on the earth, he thought it was too bad that the highly taxed people of this country should pay for their clergy. There was in the list 1,000 l. for a Bishop of Montreal, 500 l. for an archdeacon, and 400 l. for a rector, and for the Roman Catholic
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bishop of Quebec there was 1,000 l.; and he said that it was unjust to the people of this country, particularly to the Dissenters, to call on them to pay for the clergy, both Protestant and Catholic, of the North American colonies. Considering the condition of the people here and there, this ought not to be suffered by any House of Commons. But, objectionable as this item was, there were two other items still more objectionable, to which he begged to call the attention of her Majesty's Government. One of these was the sum of 49,700 l., which was paid for the salaries of justices of the peace in the West Indies and the Mauritius; the other was the sum of 18,000 l. for the education of the negroes and to furnish their schools. When he looked at the condition of the people in the colonies he thought that they ought to pay for their own magistrates and schools, and he was sure that they were better able than the people of this country were to pay for them. The report of the committee of last session, proved that the condition of the negroes was most flourishing, that they were buying land, and were able to live without much labour. He wished that the people of England were as well off, and he appealed to the House to act justly, and as Christian men, not to tax the suffering people of this country to pay for these magistrates and schools, but to make the colonists pay for their own magistrates, and the negroes for their own. education. The cost of the civil and military establishments in the West India islands was 605,000 l., and considering the extra amount of the sugar duties, they did not cost less to this country than, 5,070,000 l. Under such circumstances, he hoped that the Secretary of the Treasury would look to these items, and not press them upon the House that night; but reconsider them, and, as he trusted, ultimately withdraw them. It was not so much their amount that he objected to, as to the principle that the poor people of this country should be obliged to pay for the magistrates, clergy, and school-houses of persons who were better able to pay such charges than themselves.
Mr. Bernalwas not prepared on that occasion for the colonial disquisition in which his hon. Friend had indulged. His hon. Friend came there with figures prepared to his hand; and he, who was without figures, could not at the moment be prepared to contradict him; but when his

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hon. Friend asserted that the West India colonies were a perennial expense to this country, he wished to ask if he included Jamaica in that statement—if he meant to assert that the island of Jamaica was a perennial expense to this country? He believed some portion of the salary of the governor of that island was paid by this country; but, then, another portion of the salary was certainly paid by the House of Assembly. As to the colonial proprietors, to whom his hon. Friend had referred, he might ask if any one colonial proprietor had derived any income from his property in the West India islands for the last four years? He, as a colonial proprietor in Jamaica, could tell his hon. Friend that the amount of taxes he had been called on to pay in that island had, for these four years, been five times as great as the sum which he had derived from all the contributions of England. The internal taxation to which he was subject there was five times the amount of what he derived from this country; and, after that statement, he left it to his hon. Friend, by means of algebraic equations to find out how persons so situated were fattening upon the taxes of the people of England. Whenever his hon. Friend was willing to enter upon the discussion he would be found ready to prove that the prosperity of this country was based upon its colonial system.
Lord Stanleysaid, he could not be surprised at the remarks of the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down, at the same time he felt satisfied the House would excuse him if he did not find it necessary to follow the hon. Member for Coventry into the general discussion as to the profit or loss caused by the colonies to this country. His silence, on that topic would not, however, he hoped, be understood as a concurrence in the doctrines broached by the hon. Member for Coventry. The hon. Member had taken an unusual course in discussing at once three items of the estimates before the House went into committee upon them. He hoped, however, that the hon. Member's present proceeding would save as many speeches upon each item. It was in that hope that he was induced to follow the hon. Member upon the three points to which he had called the attention of the House. Those three points were the expenses for the North American clergy, for the stipendiary magistrates in
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the West Indies, and the vote for negro education. Now, it might be a satisfaction to the hon. Member to know that in point of principle he was inclined to concur with him; but the hon. Member had selected three votes which, by an arrangement entered into some years ago, were in the course of gradual diminution and ultimate extinction. With regard to the clergy of North America, he hardly thought the hon. Member could be aware that this vote arose out of the grants Parliament had been accustomed to make to the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel; and in 1832 or 1833 it had been arranged that the then existing clergy, should receive the same allowance, but, as each fell off by death or resignation, no new appointments should take place; and from that time the vote had been in the course of gradual diminution. He felt confident that the appointments thus sanctioned by Parliament would not be disturbed as far as the present recipients of the stipends were concerned, and he also might express a confident belief that this country could not be called upon to pay for any new appointments of the same class. With respect to the stipendiary magistrates in the West Indies, the case was of a very similar nature. When the Emancipation Act was passed in 1833 two objects were recognized by Parliament as of paramount importance and as essential to the complete and permanent success of that measure. The first object was to enforce the due execution of the law through the medium of a body less biassed than the planters in their feelings towards the negro apprentices, and certainly if there had been one feeling in which with reference to that act, Parliament had been more especially unanimous, it was in sanctioning the arrangement by which the magisterial authority was vested in a body of justices specially appointed, rather than in a local magistracy, participating in the genera] bias regarding the negro character. But with respect to this grant, as with respect to the other, the vote was in the course of continuous annual reduction. In some colonies public feeling had so materially altered since the entire emancipation of the slaves that her Majesty's Government bad felt that a reduction in the special magistracy might be made without any difficulty, and they trusted that in these colonies, at least, the services of that body might be at no dis-

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tant period entirely dispensed with. In some other islands, however, and especially in some of the smaller colonies, public feeling; continued to be greatly excited, and it was the opinion of the authorities that much injury might be done, nay, that gross injustice might be committed, if the administration of the law was left entirely in the hands of a jurisdiction wholly connected with the locality. He could not therefore, hold out to the hon. Member any expectation that in these smaller islands there would be any reduction in the number of special magistrates; but, nevertheless, the grant would continue to be annually reduced, for the course her Majesty's Government were pursuing was not to send out new magistrates from England, but to remove the' magistrates from the larger to the smaller islands when a vacancy occurred in the latter and magistrates could be dispensed with in the former—a practice which had indeed been acted on to such an extent, that since 1838 the grant they were then called on to sanction had been reduced in amount, not leas, be believed, than one third—from the sum of 69,000 l. to 49,000 l. The second object which Parliament felt to be of paramount importance to the welt working of the Emancipation Act was the establishment in the West India colonies of a system of education for the negroes; or rather, when he made use of the word "system," he should say that their object was to avail themselves of the services of Christian teachers of all persuasions without distinction as to creed or nation. The labours of these teachers had, he was delighted to declare, been most efficient, and he did believe that the encouragement of Parliaments evidenced by the anneal vote of this item, had given to the negroes an incressed and increasing sence of the necessity as well as of the value of educational instruction. The noble Lord opposite before leaving office had made arrangements gradually to diminish this grant, and, in accordance with that arrangement, a diminution of from 30,000 l. to 18,000 l, had been effected, the present item therefore, as it was to be still farther reduced at the rate of 6,000 l. per annum, would not in three years more appear upon the estimate. He had now, he believed, gone through the votes to which the hon. Member had taken objection—he had explained the grounds on which they were required—he had shown
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that the Government fully concurred in the principle he laid down, that where a colony could bear a charge for the purposes of local government, such charge should not rest on the mother country—he had shown, too, why he thought these items should be considered exceptions from that general principle, and he had only to add, that, indeed, which he had before intimated, that these items would all be reduced as rapidly as was consistent with good faith to those individuals who at present held official situations.
Sir H. Douglassaid, that he should not permit himself to be led into any discussion on colonial affairs by what had fallen from the hon. Member for Coventry; but this he must say, in passing, in reply to the desire expressed by the hon. Member to get rid of the colonies altogether, that the total value of British goods and manufactures taken from this country by the colonies in 1841 was upwards of 15,000,000 l. sterling—a proof of the vast value of our colonies in this respect, which no one in or out of that House ought to underrate at any time, but more particularly in the present stale of distress, in this country, arising from deficient consumption of British productions. As the subject of the ecclesiastical establishment for the colonies was now before the committee, he wished also to call the attention of her Majesty's Government to the very powerful appeal recently made on behalf of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts, showing more especially the necessity of increased means for the extension of religious and moral instruction, and the inability of the society to provide for these high objects, or even to keep faith with their missionaries already engaged in this high and holy calling. As the passage to which he adverted was short, he would read it:—
"The tide of Emigration (it said) continues to flow to British America and Australia; tens of thousands of poor labourers are to be found in the forests of Canada without churches, or clergymen, or schools; while the Australian settlements, originally designed for a small; number of convicts, have grown up rapidly 1 into populous colonies, nearly destitute of the means of religious and moral improvement. In the East Indies great Britain has established her dominion over a hundred millions of Hindoos or Mahomedans. The West Indian colonies are making great efforts for the education of their coloured population; while on the western coast of Africa, and at the Cape of Good

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Hope, are settlements which promise to open a way into the immense region inhabited by the Negro and the Caffre. At the present time, moreover, the peace recently concluded with China, affords the opportunity of not merely extending the commercial intercourse of the English nation, but also of planting a branch of Christ's Church, in that large and densely-peopled empire."
The noble Lord, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, had stated, correctly he feared, the gradual withdrawing, and, in 1833, the cessation, of the parliamentary grant to the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, to which he had already adverted. He most earnestly entreated her Majesty's Government to consider the inadequacy of the funds of that Society, to provide spiritual aid and religious instruction to settlers now in the colonies, in connection with the Church of England; far less to provide for these most essential objects, relatively with any more extensive system of colonization; and he would particularly advert to the impracticability, for want of funds, to carry into effect a measure of the very highest importance, long urgently required, approved, recommended, and designed—he meant, the founding a bishopric in the province of New Brunswick. The noble Lord, the Member for London, when Secretary of State for the Colonies, announced his intention, on the 31st of December, 1840, to advise her Majesty to found a bishopric in that province; and the grounds upon which that noble Lord formed that intention, and which he so well expressed, were,—
"That the constitution of the Church of England has no authority within it, excepting that of a Bishop, competent to ordination, to enforce rules of discipline, or even to connect thoroughly into one body the various ministers of local districts.
" That the Roman Catholic Church is fully organised in this respect, and so is the Church of Scotland; and it does not seem appropriate that members of the Church of England, in considerable numbers, should either be under the superintendence of a Bishop residing at a great distance, or be left entirely to voluntary contribution in this essential matter.
"For these reasons, his Lordship proposed to advise the Queen to erect a bishopric in New Brunswick, and stated his opinion that the Imperial Parliament should make provision for this foundation to the extent of 600 l. per annum, which charge should appear in the estimates."
The noble Lord's expectation was, he believed, that means would be contri-
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buted towards this endowment in New Brunswick, either by voluntary subscription or from local funds. Soon after he returned from the Ionian Islands, he was requested to become a member of the New Brunswick Bishopric Society, for the purpose of seeking contributions, in furtherance of this great object. The Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, notwithstanding their diminished means, by the withdrawing of the parliamentary grant, and the numerous claims made upon those diminished means, had appropriated, out of their small and lessening capital, the sum of 20,000 l., 3 per cent. Cons., in trust, for this endowment; but, notwithstanding the most zealous and urgent endeavours of the New Brunswick Committee, a sum not exceeding about 2,300 l. had been promised by subscription. But he regretted to say, that nearly the whole of that sum was subscribed with a condition attached, that he thought most objectionable, and subject to which it ought not, he thought, to be accepted. That condition did not indeed interfere with the authority by which the Bishop of New Brunswick may be appointed, so far as to dictate who the person ought to be; but it does stipulate who that person is not to be, by an exclusive condition, of which he should say no more, at present, than to remark, that such conditions, or expectations, as these are not unfrequently attempted, when provision for such high and holy offices are to be made by voluntary contribution; and there are no funds, whatever, at the disposal of the Crown, in the Province of New Brunswick, applicable to this, or any other purpose. He earnestly hoped, and fervently prayed, her Majesty's Government to take into their consideration this very important and most interesting measure, with a view to advise her Majesty, at their pleasure and convenience, to carry it into effect. No one can read the sad history of the times, relating to the first troubles in British North America—no one can peruse Hutchison's History of Massachussets Bay, and the biographies of other men that figured, on both sides, in those days-no person can have communicated, largely, as he had done, with the old loyalists, who bled and suffered in that struggle, without being struck with one great and signal error which was committed in those and earlier days, and which possibly had a more fatal effect than even the errors which were committed in legislation and taxation,—that great error consisted in not having

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properly provided for, supported, and upheld by endowment, the National Church of England, in those colonial possessions which became the resort of sects and sets of persons, who first overthrew the Monarchy here, and then overturned it there. He did trust in God that we were not to re-pest that sad error for so sordid and trifling a consideration, as that which now prevents the long contemplated, and most desirable measure, of founding a bishopric in the province of New Brunswick, from being carried into immediate effect.

EMIGRATION TO PRINCE EDWARD'S ISLAND.
The Lord Mayorobserved, that he should perhaps not be out of order if he took that opportunity of asking the noble Lord opposite what were the duties of the Land and Emigration Board, for which he saw, by these estimates, that a sum of 7,500 l. was to be appropriated? The noble Lord might, perhaps, have heard of a case which had come under his notice in his judicial capacity—he meant the case of certain emigrants who bad been deceived by an association now defunct, calling itself the British American Emigration and Colonization Association. In that case he thought that the board would have done well to have acted more energetically than they appeared to have acted; and as it did not seem clear what were the powers of the board, he hoped that the noble Lord would explain for what purpose it was constituted, and for the performance of what services by it the nation was paying this not inconsiderable annual item?
Lord Stanleywas very glad that the attention of the House had been called to this matter. It was one which had caused him much uneasiness, and he did not hesitate to pronounce the case one of the most flagrant nature, and of the grossest hardship and oppression that had ever come under his notice. For that hardship and oppression, however, no blame whatever was attributable to the Emigration Board; on the contrary, the commissioners of that board had carried their interference in this case to the utmost limit—nay, he believed, even beyond the strict limit—of their duty. As he had thought it possible that he might be called on, if not by the right hon. Gentleman, from some other quarter of the House, to enter into some explanation respecting this matter, be had that evening refreshed his
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memory as to the principal facts, which he would take leave at once to state to the House. In the course of September or October last he received a letter from an individual, stating that a ship called the Barbadoes was receiving emigrants in the port of London under circumstances which required the attention of the Government. He felt it his duty to lose no time in putting himself in communication with the Emigration Board, and, although the individual who had given the original information refused to come forward for examination by that board on the ground that from the information he had to give he might subject himself to penal consequences, yet the commissioners were not long in satisfying themselves that a false and deluding system was in operation, and they consequently instructed their agent, in the port of London, Lieutenant Lean, to make inquiries, and to give all the assistance in his power to the emigrants in case they should require it. The commissioners also instituted, as a matter more of course, those enquiries which they were especially authorized to make under the terms of their appointment. They ascertained, however, that the ship was well-found—that she was perfectly seaworthy—that the necessary provisions were on board—that they were of good quality—and, in fact, that the provisions of the "Passengers' Act" had been strictly complied with. These inquiries were, as he had stated, within the limits of their duty; but, as he bad also said, the commissioners had gone beyond that limit. They made it a point to ascertain the terms upon which the emigrants were shipped, and they found, on inquiry, that they were going out of their own free will, and that it was represented by the company that provision was made for their comfort on their arrival at their destination. It was stated, in answer to the commissioners' application, that the emigrants were going out under indentures to serve a person of the name of Halden, and that they were sent out by the British North American Emigration Association, a company representing itself to possess no less than 72,000 acres of land in Prince Edward's Island, upon which these emigrants were, it was said, to labour. With regard to this last representation about the land, it was unfortunate that the Government had no means whatever of verifying the statement; the land, as

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was affirmed, having been purchased, not from the Government, but from other proprietors in the settlement. Not satisfied, however, with the answers to these inquiries, it was thought necessary by the board and the Government not to trust to the assertion of the association, but to take measures to secure the due performance of the company's contract with the emigrants abroad as well as at home. With this view, instructions were sent to the Governor of Prince Edward's Island—he was furnished with copies of all the correspondence which had passed, and he was authorized and empowered to aid and assist in the enforcement of all legal claims which the emigrants might have against the company. Before this was done, however, a representation was made to the company of the danger incurred by any attempt to colonize in such a latitude at such a period of the year. In reply to this objection the company stated, that they had bound themselves to put into Halifax in the event of any unforseen accident; and that every care would be taken of the emigrants. Not content with this, the commissioners went still further, and warned the emigrants themselves of all the risks they might incur. The emigrants, however, expressed themselves satisfied, and of course the commissioners had no further power. The ship accordingly cleared out from the Custom-house, but Members would not fail to observe that before she did so warnings were given first to the company as to the time of sailing, and secondly to the emigrants as to the risks they were incurring. It was, he believed, somewhere in November that this took place. On the 23d of December the ship was driven by stress of weather into Cork harbour. The moment her arrival was notified to the authorities in the metropolis instructions were sent to the Government emigration agent in Cork to take every precaution for the due performance of the contract and the proper care of the emigrants. In reply to the agent's representations he received an assurance that the emigrants should be properly maintained; and it was further stated that the company had agreed to provision the ship until the month of March. In February, however, it was ascertained that the company was in a state of pecuniary difficulty indeed, in a condition of absolute insolvency; and it had since been understood that at that very period when the compa-
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ny were expressing an intention to victual the ship until March, the mortgagee of the ship had put in his claim, and had absolutely seized the vessel with the intention of bringing her back to the port of London to satisfy his demand. Such being the case, he had no hesitation in saying, that at that time the company were absolutely committing a fraud upon the emigrants. Upon these facts coming to their knowledge, the commissioners instructed their Cork agent to put in force the Provisions of the Passengers' Act, and to proceed against the company for landing the emigrants before the completion of their passage. No parties on the spot, however, were inclined to proceed, and, in consequence, this step proved ineffective. Other measures were taken to secure redress, and on the 31st of March the Treasury solicitor was instructed to proceed against the company. He regretted to say, however, that as there were no solvent parties against whom proceedings could be taken, so no legal redress was to be expected; but whilst he said this, he could not forbear giving expression to his earnest and confident hope, that as this company was established apparently under the sanction of high and honourable names—even though there might be no legal obligation—even though those parties had themselves been deceived—even though they were not aware that this pretended company was but a bubble from its commencement—yet that those high personages would nevertheless feel themselves morally, if not legally, bound to do something towards remedying the great and grievous hardship to which the sanction of their high names and characters had doubtless exposed many [unsuspecting people; that they would feel it an obligation and a duty to make such compensation as was in their power for the distress they had occasioned. Having said thus much, he had further to express a hope that be had satisfied the right hon. Gentleman and the House, that the Government and the board had done all in their power to prevent the possibility of those disastrous occurrences.
Mr. Vernon Smithremarked that there was one species of information, which he conceived the emigration board might well give to the country. They might make it generally known what were the colonies most favourable for emigrants and most under the immediate protection

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of the Government. Gentlemen in that House must be aware of the extreme ignorance to be found amongst persons in the country as to the places where they were going. They were misted by papers coming to them from particular companies, holding out exaggerated schemes of happiness, and yet in the midst of this there was so authentic information from the government. He did not mean that the government should be brought to enter isle competition with private companies in pointing out the places to which persons should emigrate. He did not go so far as to wish that Government should make distinct recommendations as to eligible colonies, for he knew the mutual jealousies of emigration companies and colonies; but he thought that circulation should be given to the truth. There were, from time to time, large blue books laid upon the Table of the House, which, however, seldom or never reached remote parts of the country, and even if they did would not be read. Extracts, however, might be made explaining to the country at large the real state of facts respecting the different colonies; what were their prospects, their peculiarities, and whether or not they were eligible places for intending emigrants. There had been some such information published under the late government in the official circulars of the poor-law commissioners; but it was desirable that such accounts should be still more widely circulated. They might be published in county paper, or some means adopted by which they might obtain access to small inns and alehouses in the country, where the people went to read, that they might have an opportunity of knowing in what cases government sanctioned emigration, and where it did not. He thought that it was their duty to try every way of making the truth as public an possible—of giving information with respect to the state of wages and climate—and as to what were the prospects of emigrants, in a shape sanctioned and authenticated by the responsible administration of the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that although the emigration commissioners had published information of the kind alluded to and had circulated it in those districts where it was most likely to prove useful, yet he dad think that that circulation had not been sufficiently general. He thought, at the same time, that there
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was no more efficient way of announcing to the public that the emigration commissioners would, at their office in London, afford information on all subjects connected with the different colonies, to persons wishing to emigrate, than by publicly mentioning the fact in his place in the House.
The Lord Mayorwas glad to have heard the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, state that instructions had been sent out to the Governor of Prince Edward's Island, enjoining him to assist and provide for the unfortunate emigrants in case of their arrival there.
Lord Stanleyhoped that the right hon. Gentleman would not run away with any such notion. The Governor of Prince Edward's Island had been merely instructed to give the emigrants every assistance in enforcing on the company and the owners of the vessel the terms of the original agreement.
House in committee of supply.

SUPPLY—MISCELLANEOUS.
On the question that 61,093 l. be granted to defray the charge of the colony of New Zealand,
Mr. W. Williamssaid, that really this was a most extraordinary item. Why, there were not, he was told, 14,000 people in the colony. Never were officers so highly paid; their scale of remuneration was far above that of corporate officers at home. The chief-justice had 1,000 l. a-year. Why, they would get any briefless barrister to take the place for half the money. He thought the Government ought to lay before the House the details of the estimate.
Lord Stanley: If the hon. Member had taken the trouble to refer to the bottom of the page, he would have found the explanation which he has asked of the Government. The explanation of the estimate had been before the House since the 23rd of March.
Mr. Chapmanthought, that the colony of New Zealand was in a flourishing state, and deserved every encouragement from the Government. The public money could not be better laid out than in extending the interest of that colony.
Mr. B. Woodhoped that the noble Lord would postpone this vote until hon. Members had time to read the document to which reference had been made.
Lord J. Russellthought, the objections to the vote were not well founded.

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He could not see what other course the Government could have adopted than to ask for the vote. The hon. Member said, that he had not had time to read the paper. That was no valid reason for either postponing or objecting to the vote. It was his intention to support the vote. He quite concurred in what had fallen from the hon. Member on the other side of the House, with relation to the flourishing state of the colony of New Zealand. In 1748, the same sum was asked for the colony of Halifax. If the objections which were then urged to that vote—and they were of a similar character to those now urged by the hon. Member for Coventry—had been attended to, this country would have lost one of the most valuable of its possessions. He expected to derive from the colony of New Zealand advantages similar to those which had resulted from the establishment of Halifax.
Mr. B. Woodsaid, that he had not had time to peruse the papers which referred to the vote under the consideration of the House. He had been out of town, and had not seen the document. This was no common vote; it required looking into. He did not think that such a vote should be pressed until proper explanation was given by the noble Lord.
Vote agreed to.
18,667 l. was proposed for the salaries of the governors, lieutenant-governors, and others, in the West India colonies.
Sir C. Napierthought, that this vote required some explanation. He saw that there were two lieutenant-governors of Dominica — one receiving a salary of 1,300 l. per annum, and the other lieutenant-governor was paid 366 l. a-year. The salary for the lieutenant-governor of Grenada was charged twice. In one part of the estimate the sum stated was 1,300 l., and in another part the salary of the lieutenant-governor was said to be 273 l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that a new arrangement had been entered into with reference to the payment of the lieutenant-governors of these colonies. Certain lieutenant-governors had been appointed, who would have prescribed duties to perform. The office would be no longer a sinecure. The double payment of salaries was more apparent than real. The offices of lieutenant-governor of Grenada and Dominica, to which the hon. and gallant Member had particularly referred, who were in the receipt of small salaries,
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were to be abolished when vacancies occurred.
Vote agreed to.
18,895 l. was proposed for the expenditure of the Indian department in Canada.
Mr. Williamsobjected to this vote. He said, that many of these Indians were far better off than many of the inhabitants of this country, and of Ireland particularly. He saw, that a sum exceeding 14,000 l. was for presents to the Indians. The government of the United States looked upon this matter with feelings of great jealousy. They (the Americans) considered, that this was paid as a bribe to the Indians, in order to induce them to be in readiness, in the event of a war, to assist this country. He objected to any portion of this sum being paid to Indians inhabiting the United States of America.
Lord Stanleyagreed with the hon. Member, that this sum ought to be limited to those Indians residing within our own territory. Two or three years ago an arrangement was made with the tribes; an offer was made to the Indians to the effect that those who preferred remaining within the territory of the United States, should not receive any portion of these presents. It was to be confined to those who resided within the British possessions.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 104,770 l. be granted for the expenses of the consular establishments abroad.
Mr. Williamswished to know what advantages were derived from our having a consular establishment at Paris? He saw that they had a Gonsul-general at Constantinople, receiving a salary of 1,600 l., and a vice-consul at the same place with a salary of 400 l. per annum. There was also a consul stationed at the Dardanelles, in the receipt of a salary of 300 l. a-year. He could not see the use of a consul at the latter place, for there was no shipping, no town, no trade, no commerce; there was, in fact, nothing.
Sir G. Clerksaid, that the hon. Member appeared to confound the duties of the ambassador with those of the consul, when, in fact, the functions of the two offices were quite distinct in their character.
Dr. Bowringsaid he thought it would be desirable that the House should be furnished with more accurate information on the subject of the consular establishments, and of the duties which that class

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of public officers were called upon to discharge. In the return laid before the House, their duties were by no means distinctly or satisfactorily laid down. In France, consular appointments led to high diplomatic offices; but the contrary was the practice in this country. On this subject he wished to put a question to the Government. Was it intended to make any arrangements for giving to persons intended for consular offices any special education? Those who had much intercourse with British consuls must know that they frequently betrayed an extraordinary inaptitude for the discharge of their functions. In some instances they were known to have attempted the exercise of despotic power; and one gentleman, Mr. Barker, one of our consuls in the Levant, was obliged to continue in exile in consequence of really not understanding his exact position. British subjects in the Levant were not under the protection of Turkish laws, and differences amongst themselves could only be settled by their own consul. He stood towards them, therefore, in the relation of a magistrate, and he possessed no code of laws for his guidance.
Lord Stanleyagreed with the hon. Member who spoke last, that the subject was one of great public importance, and he could inform the House that it had for some time been under the consideration of her Majesty's Government. It was important to define the law under which consuls were to act, but it was at the same time a matter of considerable difficulty. A bill was prepared on the subject, but he could not undertake to say that it would be introduced during the present Session.
Lord Ingestrieobserved, that vessels found great difficulty in getting in and out of the Dardanelles: it was, therefore, necessary that there should be consuls to regulate their entrances and exits.
Mr. W. Williamsthought that the present Government ought not to endeavour to justify any proceedings of theirs respecting the appointment of consuls by saying that they followed the example of their predecessors in office.
Dr. Bowringurged the necessity which existed in all parts of the world that the consuls who represented Great Britain should speak the language of the country. A Queen's messenger underwent an examination as to languages before he was
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intrusted with despatches. It was well known that no attention whatever was paid to the qualification of consuls. The establishment was a mere refugium pecca-torum.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to remind the hon. Member that the First Lord of the Treasury bad on a former occasion assured the House that consular offices would not be made use of as a matter of patronage—that they would not deserve to be called a refugium peccatorum—and that in future none but well qualified persons would be appointed. He agreed with the hon. Member that a knowledge of languages was a great advantage; cœteris paribus, the good linguist ought to be preferred; but it was not always practicable to find here persons qualified to examine a newly-appointed consul. There was a British consul at the Sandwich Islands; who could examine him?
Dr. Bowringwished to know what had been done with respect to consular appointments in China?
Lord Stanleyreplied, that no appointment had been made except that of Sir H. Pottinger, and that only for the purpose of giving him legal authority to act. None others had been made, and probably none would be made for some time.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 4,840 l. be granted for the usual allowance to Protestant Dissenting ministers, poor French Protestant refugees, &c,
Mr. Ewartsaid in that grant he found a sum named to be given to the corporation of Berwick for the repair of their bridge; another sum for the support of a school in the Isle of Man. Now, why should such grants come under the head of a grant for Protestant Dissenting ministers? What connexion there was between a bridge and a minister he was at a loss to know.
Sir G. Clerksaid, he had devoted as much time as he could spare towards simplifying these estimates; they had been very complicated, and, although he had made some improvements, he had not carried them so far as he hoped to do another year.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that the sum of 50,000 l.be granted towards defraying the expenses of the steam communication to India by means of the Red Sea,
Dr. Bowringwished to know whether

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any steps had been taken to increase our means of communication with our vast possessions in the East? France had no less than three arrivals and departures every month; Austria had two; while England, with her immense commerce and her 150,000,000 of subjects in that country, had only one arrival per month. He would also wish to know whether the intention of communicating with India by means of the Euphrates had been given up? He thought it impracticable.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the establishment of a fortnightly communication would double the expense of the steam navigation necessary, in this heavy branch of expenditure; which was borne, as it was, in conjunction with the Indian Government. The present communication was extremely regular; and without saying that the time might not arrive when it would be well to have a more frequent transit of intelligence, at present he feared that it would be hardly practicable.
Dr. Bowringdeclared that he could not avoid reiterating his earnest wish that the Government would accede to a more frequent communication with their vast eastern empire. When he reflected on the magnitude of the interests involved, and the momentous importance, both in public and private relations, of rapid transmission of intelligence; when he remembered how much of national advantage would be secured, and how much of individual anxiety would be allayed by shortening the interval delaying the reception of news from India, he did feel inexpressibly the extreme weight of the question, and he considered it one well worthy of the serious attention of the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government. Immense would be the benefit to civilization and to science from the measure he was advocating, and incalculable the augmentation of public and private convenience arising from thus extending the facilities of intercourse.
Sir R. Peelsaid, he did not at all dispute the force of the general principle advocated by the hon. Member. At the same time he begged to observe, that it was far better to increase the communication with Alexandria than with the East Indies; that though Austria and France had more frequent communication with the Levant they had not so with India; and that the expence provided for in this
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estimate, was only a portion of what even the existing system cost, the residue being borne by the East India Company. My principle object in rising (continued the right hon. Baronet), is to bear this public testimony to the liberal and enlightened conduct of the Pacha of Egypt, with respect to the transmission of the Indian letters during the late operations on the coast of Syria. Whatever causes of complaint the Pacha might have had against this country—and I do not enter into the question whether the complaint were well founded or not—it is impossible, but that the proceedings of England must have appeared to him unjust, and excited his dissatisfaction; and it was a great proof of a generous and enlightened mind, that these proceedings never induced him to throw the slightest difficulty in the way of the communications with India. Other countries may boast of more enlightenment than the Pacha of Egypt, but I much doubt if, under similar circumstances, any other power would exhibit so great a degree of liberality. I believe that the Pacha's conduct was dictated by wisdom, and a genuine appreciation of his own true interest; but it is not every country that, on such occasions, takes the sound and enlightened view of its own interest which, in the case of the Pacha of Egypt, seems to me worthy of this public acknowledgement in the British House of Commons.
Sir C. Napiersaid, he certainly concurred in the feeling expressed by the right hon. Baronet. At the time when the British forces were intercepting the Pacha's correspondence, he was generously admitting the uninterrupted transmission of ours. Conduct like this was worthy of civilized states, and showed that the Pacha's policy was not that of a barbarian, at least.
Mr. Ewartdirected attention to the propriety of providing for better communication with such places as Trebizond, and with the ports on the Black Sea, where British commerce might ere long penetrate.
Vote agreed to.
On the question that 4,411 l. be granted for the School of Design,
Mr. Ewartexpressed his gratification at the report which had been laid before the House on this subject, whence it appeared that provincial schools of art had been established in and at Manches-

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tar, Birmingham, Sheffield, &c, and (he Has surprised to find) also at a non-manufacturing city like York. There had, moreover, been established a female school of design in Somerset-house, and an admirable elementary work had been published under Government auspices on ornamental design.
Sir R. Peelsaid, as to the York school, many gentlemen well qualified to judge bad expressed a strong opinion as to the advantage of such an establishment in that city, and he could by no means allow that a school of design could never be of any public advantage except in a manufacturing town; at the same time, too, the citizens of York had responded to the appeal, and had cordially availed themselves of the opportunity afforded by the Government. He therefore believed great good would result from such a seminary in an important metropolis like York.
Vote agreed to.
The House adjourned, at nine o'clock.