Sitting of 3 March 1842

Minutes.
BILLS. Public—1° Southwark Improvement (No. 2); Rivers (Ireland). Private.—1° Kington Road; Birmingham and Liverpool Junction Canal; Birmingham and Liverpool Junction Canal (Extension); Windsor Bridge; Castlerigg and Derwentwater Inclosure. Wtihdrawn—Nottingham Gas (No. 2).
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Villiers, from Leeds, Sheffield, and other places, Mr. Ricardo, from several Parishes of London, Mr. Fox Maule, from Montrose, and other places. Mr. Blewitt, from Newport, and other places, and Mr. Gore Langton, from places in Somersetshire, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws By Mr. G. Banks, from Poole, in favour of the Ministerial Measure; and Mr. Gore Langton, from Manshead, against that Measure.— By an hon. Member, from William Lane, to Void Leases should the Corn Importation Bill pass.—By Dr. Stock, from Millers of Armagh, and other places, and Mr. Gregory, from Millers of Dublin, for Encouragement to Import Wheat in preference to Flour.—By an hon. Member, from Joseph Jenkins, for Continuing the present Corn-law Inspectors.—By Sir R. Inglis, from Bath, for Protection to the Church, and against the Abolition of Church-rates.—By an hon. Member, from Dr. Davidson, for an Alteration of the Poor-law.—By Sir R. Inglis, from Clergy of Oxford, to Amend the Law relating to Rating Tithes.—By Major Bryant, and other hon. Members, from Congregations of Presbyterians in Carsland, Cooks-town, and other places, for Legalizing certain Marriages by Dissenting Clergymen.—From Sligo, and other places, for Repeal of the Union (Ireland).

QUANTITY OF CORN PRODUCED.
Mr.Renniebegged to ask the right hon. Baronet opposite whether it were the intention of Government, in regulating the supply of corn, to establish some means of ascertaining as correctly as possible the number of acres sown with grain every year in the United Kingdom, specifying the different kinds of grain sown, and the quantity produced, so that when the right hon. Baronet's measure came into operation, it might be competent in persons to form an estimate as to whether, with an average crop, there would be sufficient for the consumption of the United Kingdom.
Sir R. Peelsaid, the House was aware that, in connection with the Board of Trade, there was a department of which the business was, to obtain statistical information on the trade and exports of the United Kingdom; and to this department there had recently been added another, for the purpose of obtaining statistical information in reference to agriculture; but the object was strictly to collect facts, and not estimates; and he thought it would be very unwise on the part of Government to sanction any publication of this information, for the purpose of enabling individuals to form estimates one way or the other, as to whether there was, or was not, a sufficient supply of corn. This was a matter which would be much better left to the natural operation of commerce. The interference of Government, he conceived, in such a matter, was altogether to be deprecated.

INDIA AND THE MAURITIUS—EMIGRATION.
Mr. Hoggbegged to put a question to his hon. Friend, the Secretary for the Board of Control. There had been laid before the House a despatch from the Secretary for the Colonies, addressed to the commissioners for regulating the affairs of India, transmitting a copy of an Order of her Majesty in Council regulating the introduction of labourers from India into the Mauritius; also a copy of a despatch containing the opinion of her Majesty's Ministers, regarding the supply of free labour from India to the Mauritius, and requesting that the despatch and enclosure should be transmitted to the Governor-general of India. His question was, whether the President of the Board of Control, before authorising the transmission of those documents, would consider it his duty to lay on the Table a copy of a despatch from the Court of Directors, containing their views of the subject, and the instructions which

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they might issue on the subject to the local Government.
Mr. B. Baringsaid, the object of the Board of Control, and he believed also the wish of the Court of Directors, was, to give every possible facility to the course taken on this subject. He had no objection to lay the papers to which his hon. Friend referred on the Table.

FLOGGING IN PRISONS.
Mr. T. Buncombebegged to put a question to the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, relative to a statement of his upon a former evening, that out of 1,207 persons flogged in prisons, the number of adults was only seventy. He (Mr. Duncombe) found, on referring to the official returns, that the number of adults was 418, leaving 789 juvenile offenders. He wished to know whether his statement were correct.
Sir James Grahamsaid, it was true, that in 1841 there were 418 persons subjected to corporal punishment, but 348 were so punished according to sentences of courts of justice, and seventy received punishment for breach of prison discipline, either under sentence of magistrate, or by the act of the gaoler, confirmed by the magistrate. What he wished to convey was, that out of 70,000 persons confined only seventy, or one in a thousand, received corporal punishment for breaches of prison discipline.

LASCARS IN LONDON.
Mr. B. Baringsaid, in reference to a question put to him on a former evening by the hon. Member for Inverness, relative to a large number of Lascars wandering about London, that the Board of Control would draw the attention of the Court of Directors and the Board of Trade to the subject, in the hope that some remedy might be found for the sufferings of these poor people.

FORGERY OF EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer: I am glad that the courtesy of the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. French), and of my noble Friend (Viscount Mahon), has enabled me, by postponing their motions, to bring before the House a subject of very great public and individual importance; and that I am now at liberty to recur to the assistance of Parliament for a complete developement of transactions which have engaged a large portion of public attention, and which
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have been to all those concerned in the administration of the financial department of the country for some months past a source of unceasing labour and constant anxiety. Although the subject has been fully discussed by the public, although the Government have applied themselves to the complete developement of all its circumstances, yet there are parts of the trans action which cannot, in my view of it, be completely developed, without calling on Parliament for assistance. The object, therefore, which I have in view this evening, is to submit to this House the measure which it appears to me expedient that Parliament should adopt, in order that the whole circumstances of the case may be fully known to this House, to Parliament, and to the country. Under this view of my object, it is not my intention to enter into an examination of what may have been the defects of the system under which Exchequer-bills have been here-to fore fabricated or issued, nor to discuss what changes it may be essential to make, either in the law which regulates that issue, or the regulations under which it has hitherto taken place. These circumstances will be proper subjects of future discussion—of discussion when there shall have been time allowed sufficiently to weigh well the recommendations which have been submitted to Government, by the report of the Commissioners—when time shall have been allowed those most conversant with the business of the Treasury and of the Exchequer, to consider what may be the most expedient course to pursue, for the improvement of the law, and for the prevention of fraud, as far as human means can prevent a repetition of crimes similar to those which have been recently committed. Before I explain to Parliament the nature of the measure which I shall propose to them to adopt, I may be permitted briefly to advert to the circumstances of the case and to the position in which we now stand. An extensive fraud—it is generally known to all whom I have the honour of addressing—has been committed, by means of forging public securities, to a considerable extent. That forgery was committed by a breach of confidence on the part of a public officer—by one of those gross violations of duty which, happily, are rare in the annals of this country, but which, in proportion as they are rare, create, when they do occur, a strong sensation and considerable alarm. The mode in which the fraud was committed was

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simply this:—An individual in the department, in whom was reposed the confidence of his superiors, he having been in the department for eight-and- twenty years, being connected with those who had distinguished themselves, both in the civil and military service of the country, an individual who had enjoyed the uninterrupted confidence of a series of auditors and Comptrollers-general—who had received the strongest testimonies as to his ability and honesty from Lord Grenville, Lord Auckland, and Sir John Newport, from the present Comptroller-general and others connected with the department— that individual presented the melancholy picture of a person violating the most sacred duties, abusing the powers he possessed to defraud the public, in whose service he had been so long employed, and whom he was under the strongest obligations to serve faithfully and with honour. The mode in which he accomplished the fraud was by possessing himself of papers which had been entrusted to him in his official capacity; and having so possessed himself of those papers, by taking them from the office in which he served, in order to forge the name of the noble Lord, whose signature Exchequer-bills were by law bound to bear. He then availed himself of these forged bills as negociable instruments; but, as this was a fraud which, if it had not been committed guardedly and with great precaution it would have admitted of easy detection, the course this individual pursued—assisted by agents whose crime, perhaps, did not equal, but certainly approached near to that of the principal in the transaction—was to give those Exchequer-bills so forged as deposits for loans of money, on condition that the very bills so deposited for loans should be returned to him on payment of the money, or on other Exchequer-bills being given in the room of those which had been originally deposited. Thus by constantly at each successive exchange of Exchequer-bills forging new bills, with a view to replace the forged bills already outstanding, he contrived effectually to prevent the presentation for exchange of the forged bills at the Exchequer-office, and equally to prevent their general circulation among the commercial community of the metropolis. Thus, he committed, in the first instance, a breach of every honourable obligation; and after wards, by an artful concealment of the forged instruments issued, he succeeded in escaping the detection to which a different
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course would have certainly exposed him. On the 20th October last an individual called upon me at my office, and informed me that an offer had been made to him of Exchequer-bills in deposit for a loan of money, and he told me that the rate of interest offered to him upon the loan, was so disproportionate to the market rate of interest, that he suspected the bills must have been stolen, or that they were the property of some other individual. On that information being confidentially communicated to me, I felt it my duty to make immediate enquiry, and I lost no time in doing so. The result of that enquiry, in consequence of the information given to me on the 20th of October, was, that on the 25th of the same month the whole fraud was developed, and the individuals guilty of it taken into custody. Five days were sufficient between the first suspicion of the offence, and the apprehension of the offender, to bring to light a fraud which had been for so long a period in progress. Do not let the House suppose, that I mention this with a view to claim any credit to the Government, or praise for activity which it may have displayed on a particular occasion. Far from it. I mention it only to remind the House, that if among the many persons who must have had cognizance of this proceeding, there had been found one individual who would have given a public officer information of the offence committed (and it is a suspicious circumstance that there was not one among so many), the offence, instead of being concealed from April, 1836, to October, 1841, would at any intervening period have been effectually discovered. This is an important consideration for the House to bear in mind in the progress of the proceeding which I shall recommend. Upon the discovery of the offence the Government had but one course to pursue. The first thing was to bring to punishment the offender by whose agency the whole proceeding had taken place. The unhappy man made a partial confession of his guilt in the first instance. From that, means were found of getting hold also of the agent who was principally concerned in assisting him in this nefarious transaction. Application was made to the Government by both parties to be admitted to give in formation. Application was made very strongly on behalf of the principal, Smith, that he might receive a remission of punishment if he pleaded guilty, and gave in formation to the fullest extent to the

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Government. Such an application it was impossible for the Government to accept. It was their duty to develop the whole nature of the transactions; to ascertain the minute facts; to learn how the crime was committed, and how it was so long concealed; but they could never reconcile it to their sense of public duty to permit him, but for whom no crime could have been committed, who was the chief criminal, to escape without punishment. Such being their view, his application was considered one to which no attention could be paid, and the answer was, that the course of law in its utmost rigour must take place. With respect to another individual, the Government dill think it right to confirm the testimony which they had, by admitting him as Queen's evidence. I know, that on that account the Government were subjected to much obloquy, but when I call to mind the great importance of convicting the principal offender—when I bring to mind how essential it was to obtain, as far as possible, a complete knowledge of the full extent of the crime which was committed, I shall be prepared at any time, that it may be questioned in Parliament to defend the conduct of the Government on that occasion. But I do not believe, that any one who entertains a just sense of the situation in which the matter stood will be disposed to call in question the correctness of our conduct, It happened also, that the principal individual—his application for favourable consideration having been refused — himself pleaded guilty. But not, be it observed, until the other party was admitted as Queen's evidence. In consequence of that plea, which the Government have been accused of having procured, but to which they were not accessory in the slightest degree, it has been complained, that that full development of the transaction was prevented which the public was anxious should have taken place. But over that the Government, after placing the party on his trial had no control. Having convicted the principal offender, the next duty which devolved on the Government was to establish public credit, which was considerably shaken by the ex tent to which the forgeries had taken place. To effect this, no other means could be adopted than the difficult and laborious one of calling in every Exchequer bill in circulation, examining them separately in the office from which they had been issued, stamping them with a mark to denote their genuineness, and then
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re-issuing them to the public. This duty was performed, when the extent of it is considered, in a very few days. And here I should be guilty of the greatest injustice if I did not pay a tribute to the assiduity and zeal of the Comptroller of the Exchequer, who, being called upon to perform a duty in some degree foreign to the office which he held, devoted his whole time for a very considerable period to the personal superintendence of the necessary arrangements. To his exertions on that occasion the public were indebted for the short time which elapsed between the presentation of the bills at the Exchequer, and their re-issue to the public; and, therefore, to their not being exposed for a longer time to the inconvenience which must result from the withdrawal of so large a mass of public securities from circulation. Having provided for this emergency the Government proceeded to another task equally necessary, namely, to institute an inquiry as to what were the official regulations under which Exchequer bills were issued, and to ascertain what were the defects of those arrangements, with a view to recommend such alterations as might be necessary to prevent the occurrence of similar fraud in future. For that purpose they selected individuals, of whom I need not say that as they are distinguished for their ability, so they stand most high in character, as upright and honourable men—men neither likely on the one hand to be influenced by popular prejudice, nor on the other to pay deference to any wish which might be felt in any quarter to conceal whatever might have been amiss, or to keep it back from public observation. To these Gentlemen I cannot sufficiently express my obligations in having at great inconvenience to themselves, undertaken a public duty of so laborious and irksome a character, and having devoted to it so much of their time, I trust ultimately with so much benefit to the public. Now, Sir, I do not mean at the present moment to enter into the question to which their report gives rise. That report is before the House. A time will come when I shall have to submit to the House regulations necessary for hereafter settling the whole question arising upon that report, and then it will properly come under the consideration of Parliament. I may here however remark, as an answer to those who thought the Government desired concealment of what took place in the offices of the Exchequer and the Treasury, and

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who tax us with having admitted one of the parties as Queen's evidence and induced Smith to plead guilty, with a view to conceal facts, that if any Government had a design of concealing facts occurring in public offices, there could not be a stronger proof of the absence of such an intention than the selection of these Gentlemen to con duct the investigation, of which the results are already submitted to Parliament. Sir, I think the House will admit that the Go vernment have acted with the vigour and promptitude which the case required. But there is something more required in this case, as it appears to me, than the mere examination of official rules, or the conviction of the offender who committed this crime. It must be obvious that, in order to the completion of the crime of which I have given the details to the House, two circumstances were essentially necessary— one was the want of caution, perhaps, on the part of a public department, a want of caution originating in a long series of years of immunity from abuse. For 150 years no offence whatever had been committed of a similar character, nor had anything occurred which could lead to the suspicion that Exchequer bills could be subject to forgery. But something more was necessary to the commission of such an offence than a breach of confidence on the part of an individual in office, or the want of strength in the official regulations by which that individual was bound. I say, and I speak advisedly when I say, that such an offence could not have been committed in the midst of the intelligent community which inhabits this metropolis without there being, I will not say connivance, but some knowledge of the transactions going on at the time which it was the duty of the individuals who possessed it to have communicated to the Government. Why, Sir, what was the result of the first detection of the offence? No sooner were proceedings taken against the individual Smith, than 1 received from various quarters details of suspicious circumstances, which had taken place in antecedent years. One gentleman had a loan offered to him of Exchequer bills, which he was led at once to reject, from the suspicious manner in which it was communicated, though he did not convey his suspicions to others. In other in stances I was informed that a large number of persons were employed in the negotiation of Exchequer bills who were devoid of character and respect in the society in which they lived. With such facts, I say
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there are circumstances on the part of the public which require to be examined, that we may understand the real nature of this transaction—how the suspicion of a fraud committed by one individual could have been so long entertained amongst so large a number of persons, and so long have escaped detection. It is, therefore, with this view that I shall call upon Parliament to institute a specific inquiry—not to be conducted by a committee of this House, or by a mere commission appointed by the Crown, but by a commission appointed by Parliament to investigate the real nature of these several transactions, to see how business was transacted by those several persons who acted as instruments in the distribution of the forged bills, to know whether they were men of such unsuspicious characters that honest men might fairly have given them credit for fairly possessing the amount of money which they shewed in Exchequer bills, and whether the money advanced on the bills bore an interest beyond the market rate, or what would have been reasonable under similar circumstances, were the transaction an honest one. These, and a variety of other circumstances, require to be rigidly and strictly investigated, before the House can be called on to come to any final decision on the question; nay, before we can understand the nature of the case with which we have to deal. Sir, an inquiry of this kind appears to me to be required by the highest moral consideration. It is essential that the people of the country should know how public business is con ducted which admits of such occurrences; because, if there be a probability that practices of this kind can be carried on to so great a length without exposure, then a different set of regulations may be necessary from what would be required if all persons were careful in examining proceedings in which they engaged. In addition to official rules, there must be the security of general care and caution on the part of the public: or at least, if not care and caution, a readiness to communicate with the Government whenever circumstances occur which raise doubts respecting the conduct of any department in the public administration. Sir, there is, perhaps, another circumstance to which I ought to advert, and which will no doubt be mentioned on the present occasion. It was pressed upon me from the first moment, and by some Gentlemen with great force—it has been urged upon me by the public press, and in various ways. I

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allude to the claims of parties holding forged bills, for payment of those bills. Now, those claims when brought before me I have met, as I conceive it my duty to meet, by a distinct refusal. I stated to the parties, what I have no hesitation in stating to the House, that to admit claims for payment in a case of this kind is to take from the public the greatest security against a repetition of such offences, and to do all in your power to render future villainy effective for its object. If, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, I once pronounced the opinion that a man, taking a forged public security, was, therefore, to have a remedy against the public, what could I do more effectually to remove all precaution— all ordinary care from individuals receiving such securities—or how could I more effectually encourage individuals in their efforts to seduce a public officer, than by holding out a security that the result of his fraud, however it might terminate, would be his obtaining compensation for the security which he had improperly obtained? There fore, Sir, I have forborne to give the least encouragement to propositions of this kind; and I do most decidedly, if I may be permitted, advise the House and Parliament to weigh well all the considerations of this nature, before they are led away by any statements of individual hardship, or individual suffering, lightly to yield to claims of this nature. Sir, it appears to me, I confess, before the House can enter on a question of the sort, that they must satisfy themselves that there is some distinction to be drawn between the law as it applies to forgery on individuals and on the public. They must also make up their minds to this, that it is not expedient to give the holders of forged instruments a remedy against the individuals from whom they received them, and so on, tracing them from hand to hand up to the individual who committed the original fraud. I do not mean to say that there may not be particular circumstances in which you may not forego a strict adherence to that rule, but in any case I think you should strenuously resist giving any encouragement whatever until the whole nature of the transaction shall be so fully before you, that you are in a situation to form a correct judgment upon it. For, Sir, if it should appear that these crimes have been committed by means of putting confidence in suspicious individuals—nay, in individuals more than suspicious, whose conduct in previous transactions had given a taint to their proceed-
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ings in the society in which they lived— if it should further appear that there was a species of secrecy enjoined when these bills were deposited as security that was not usual—if it should appear that the interest demanded was greater than under similar circumstances would be demanded in fair and honourable transactions—if it should appear that when a bill escaped from what I shall call the imprisonment in which it was put, a premium was offered to recover back that particular bill, that it might not get into circulation—if there is a possibility that such facts should appear as the result of the inquiry which I propose to the House to adopt, then I think, until these points are made clear, that the House and the Government should most carefully abstain from holding out the slightest prospect of interposing to prevent the ordinary course of law on this subject. With these views, I shall conclude by proposing to Parliament that they should appoint a commission for the purpose of inquiring into the receipt, circulation, and possession of certain forged Exchequer-bills. The hon. Gentleman opposite (the Member for Mon-mouth) has given notice of an amendment on the motion which I am about to propose, for the purpose of referring the matter to a select committee. I presume the hon. Gentleman's object is, like my own, to attain the most thorough knowledge of all the details of those transactions. If, then, I prefer my own motion to that of the hon. Member for Monmouth, the House, I am sure, will give me credit for believing that it is not intended for the purpose of defeat ing any object which is applicable to such an inquiry, but because I believe that the course which I am about to pursue is the one most calculated to ascertain, in the clearest manner, every matter connected with this question, and of presenting it in a manner the most fit for Parliament to adjudicate upon. By appointing commissioners you will have the advantage of the witnesses being brought before them upon oath. You can place on that commission men of the highest legal character—per sons not to be influenced by applications from their constituents, but who, being perfectly free and unembarrassed, can examine into the real circumstances of the case. They will have the fullest powers for doing that; at least I propose, in my bill, to give them the fullest powers to make the most searching inquiry into all points of the case to which I have alluded. I confidently trust, then, that their report

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will be such as to leave no point unexplained—no part unknown to Parliament and the country, and that the Parliament and the Government will be in a situation to judge what course it will be advisable to pursue, and the most conducive to prevent a recurrence of similar circumstances, as well as for the maintenance of the public credit. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill for the appointment of a commission, with power of examining and inquiring as to the receipt, circulation, and possession, of certain forged Exchequer-bills.
Mr. Kemblehad been requested, before the commencement of the Session, by certain gentlemen, to present a petition on their behalf to the House. Having, how ever, found that there was a rule which, without the recommendation of Government, precluded him from doing so, he had waited until the right hon. Gentleman made his statement before he should refer to that petition. He must say, that with the greater part of what had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman he most fully concurred. There was, however, one part of the observations of the right hon. Gentleman with which he did not agree; and, but for this, he should not have risen. It was with reference to the imputations which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer had cast upon the holders of these Exchequer-bills. He would venture to say, on their behalf, that some of the holders of those Exchequer-bills would be found among the most respectable and honourable men that this great metropolis could produce; and he only hoped the House would suspend their opinion on the transaction under discussion till that full inquiry which the right hon. Gentleman proposed had taken place. He had been made acquainted with circum stances attending those transactions, but it would be unjust to the parties themselves to enter further into the discussion of them at present. He could only say, if the right hon. Gentleman gave the consent of the Government to having that petition to which he alluded presented, it would be seen that the course intended to be pur sued by the right hon. Gentleman was just such a one as the holders of those bills would require. He was not at liberty exactly to read the prayer of the petition, but he might be allowed to read what was the conclusion of that petition, supposing that he were permitted to present it. From it the Government would see that the
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holders of the bills in question demanded nothing more than a strict and rigid inquiry into this affair—an inquiry which was due both to themselves and to the public at large. The petitioners went on to say, each for himself, that their conduct in the receipt of those Exchequer-bills, and the advances they had made on their security, had been an honest bonâ fide proceeding, perfectly regular, and in the ordinary course of business; and therefore they solicited from that honourable House, through such means as its wisdom might suggest, a most scrupulous and effective investigation into all the circumstances of the case, so far as they were concerned, and they were willing to state all they knew about it on oath, and to produce all books, papers, and writings, connected with it in their possession; for they made this appeal to the honourable House, confident that the result would fully satisfy the House that the conduct of the petitioners, in the receipt of such bills, had been honourable, regular, and unexceptionable in every respect. He confidently believed that the gentlemen who signed that petition had nothing to keep in the back ground. They desired and expected a rigid examination, such in fact as the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed. He would not now enter into details, as the House was not in possession of materials for discussion; he would content himself with merely re marking, that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman showed that an inquiry was demanded, not only for the sake of the public, but that it would be unjust to the holders of the bills if it were refused; considering, moreover, that those frauds had been committed by persons in the employment of the Government. He had now only to notice the amount of interest charged on those bills. It would appear that the interest charged by the lenders was no more than according to the money rate at the time the advance was made; and he would remind the House, that the great corporation of the Bank of England, four times a-year, advertised to lend money, for a limited period, at 5 per cent. on Exchequer-bills. The petitioners should not be blamed for doing what the Bank of England did; and if they in any instance had taken higher interest than 5 per cent., he would remind the House that they had done so under the sanction of the Legislature, which had relaxed the usury laws for the benefit of trade, and had legalised that which before was not lawful.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas only anxious to say this, that when he alluded to persons, holders of the bills, who had acted fraudulently, he was alluding to cases that were present to his mind, and with respect to which he had information; but he never meant to allude to the whole body of the holders as being guilty of participating in the fraud. That was not his intention; and he should be very sorry if it went abroad that he had expressed an opinion of that nature. What he referred to were cases within his own knowledge.
Mr. Leaderdid not mean to detain the House, but he could not resist making one or two observations on what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, as well as the hon. Gentleman opposite. The Chancellor of the Exchequer almost seemed to forget, that there were two questions of carelessness here. Carelessness on the part of those who were holders of Exchequer-bills, and carelessness in the Exchequer-bill office itself. The hon. Member for Surrey, who was interested for some of the holders of the Exchequer-bills, had stated that of which he entertained no doubt— namely, that there were innocent holders of Exchequer-bills. Many had come fairly by these bills, and might claim compensation on that ground; but then he must say, on the authority of a banker who sat in that House, that there had been heard in the City for some time rumours that there was something wrong about the Exchequer-bills; and this banker told him that he had himself a very narrow escape from them. He had the Gentleman's per mission to state the facts, but not his name. Now, the Gentleman was a Member of the House, and if he stated anything incorrectly the gentleman could contradict him. [Laughter.] He did not intend what he had said to have caused a laugh. That Gentleman stated, that shortly before the discovery of the Exchequer-bill fraud, a person had come to him and said that he wanted a loan of 60,000 l., or any part of 60,000 l., on a deposit of Exchequer-bills. Exchequer-bills were, at that time, at a premium of from 12 s. to 15 s. The person wanting that loan offered 6 per cent. interest, money at the time being easily procured on good security, such as Exchequer-bills for 4 per cent, The banker having considered that subject, thought there was something about the transaction that he did not like, and told the person making the application, that if he was in want of money, he had better sell the bills than borrow money on
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them at such a rate of interest. The same person afterwards went to one of the greatest capitalists in London, and made the same proposal. The answer of the capitalist was the answer of the prudent banker:— "You cannot afford to give such an amount of interest; if you want money so very badly as you represent yourself to do, you had much better sell the bills." Now, he thought, that when persons holding forged Exchequer-bills could be proved to have received them under such circum stances, they could have no claim whatever for compensation; for whatever might have been the amount of carelessness of parties connected with the Exchequer-bill-office, they could not excuse the gross carelessness of parties receiving Exchequer-bills under such circumstances. But, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been properly severe on those who had taken Exchequer-bills under suspicious circumstances, the right hon. Gentleman had not been sufficiently severe on the carelessness exhibited at the Exchequer-bill-office. He thought, that from the documents before the House, from the letter of the Comptroller-general, and likewise from the report of the commissioners, the country had a very fair subject of complaint against the Exchequer-bill-office. He wished to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if the statement which he was able to make was correct or not. He had been informed that at the time when the Exchequer-bill-office was remodelled, a person acquainted with that department had called the attention of the persons in authority to the fact, that Mr. Beaumont Smith was possessed of a great deal of power, and that there was no check upon him, and his was the only department on which there was no check. He believed that the present Comptroller of the Exchequer was at that time the Chancellor of the Exchequer [" No, no."] At least, that noble Lord was then connected with the Treasury, and that the representation to which he referred was not attended to. If the representation were made, he did not know why it was not attended to, or why such powers should have been left to Mr. Beaumont Smith. As to those powers it was plain that they had been monstrously abused. It was not necessary for him to mention other instances of carelessness, as they must come before the commissioners at the proper time. All he should now do was to call the attention of the Chancellor of

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the Exchequer to the fact, that there was such carelessness in the Exchequer-bill-office as to justify the public in believing that much compassion should be felt for the innocent holders of Exchequer bills. There was no care as to the stamped paper of the Exchequer-Bill-office, whereas the paper of the Bank of England was treated as so much valuable property before, as after the signature. There was great carelessness in this respect; and the feeling of the public was, that there was not pro per attention on the part of the Exchequer-bill-office, and the consequence was, that great hardship and serious injury were inflicted on the holders of Exchequer-bills, who were suffering on that account.
Mr. Blewittsaid, there were one or two points on which he wished to set the House right. The right hon. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, had spoken of the Exchequer-bills in question as forgeries; but he begged to say, that it was not quite clear as yet that they were forgeries; for he was perfectly satisfied from what had already transpired, that Mr. Beaumont Smith had had many opportunities of obtaining the official signatures to these bills; and, therefore, had no need to commit any forgery. He was, therefore, of opinion, that as a reasonable doubt existed on that important point, the parties holding these bills should, as a matter of justice and right, have the benefit of those doubts. Having made these observations in justice to those persons, he had only to add, that he fully concurred in the motion of the right hon. Gentleman.
Sir Robert Inglisremarked, that the motion now in the hands of the Speaker, begged the question which ought to be the subject of inquiry; and that was, whether the bills withdrawn by the Government from the hands of the holders were, or were not, forged. He had had communication with several gentlemen on this subject, but he had entered that House utterly unfettered as to the course he might take, and until he had heard the statement of his right hon. Friend he had not come to any determination upon the matter. The right hon. Gentleman had drawn an analogy which had previously been drawn by a high authority, and, notwithstanding the combined authority of both, he thought the analogy was entirely fallacious. The analogy was instituted between the holders of those spurious bills, and those who were holders
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of forged bank-notes. The distinction between the two cases was this, that the forged bank-notes did not come from the Bank at all, while the bills which were the subject of this motion were actually issued from the Government department which had the issuing of them. Whether they came out by one door of that department, or by another door, whether on the right hand, or on the left, whether by a breach of confidence or not, they came forth from the Exchequer. The bills, as he took it, were perfect in every respect but the signature. The paper was the Government paper, the seal was the Government seal, and the office from which they were issued was the Government office for issuing them. [No, no.] That might be a matter for inquiry. He was not aware, that the point was one that had been contested; with the single exception of the signature being forged, the issuing of these bills appeared to him to be the act of the officer of the department to whom it properly belonged to perform that act. He felt, that his right hon. Friend had prejudiced the case by drawing an analogy be tween bank-notes being forged, and by saying, that it would be an encouragement to fraud, if a bank were to pay a bonâ fide holder who presented a forged instrument. But this was the case of an instrument brought to the Government by whom it had been issued.
Mr. F. T. Baringhad a very few words to say on this subject. He entirely concurred in the propriety of the course suggested by the' right hon. Gentleman. He was glad that the right hon. Gentleman had felt it to be his duty to originate a commission with full powers to investigate this subject, which, upon every ground, required, in his opinion, a full and complete investigation. For that purpose, too, he preferred a commission to a committee. It had been properly stated that if a committee of that House had been appointed, it would be impossible for gentlemen not to be worried by applications; and whether or not they were swayed by these applications, it would be impossible to disabuse the public mind of the impression that parties had been screened, or that there had not been a sufficiently pressing inquiry into the conduct of all parties, that is, supposing the inquiry to be conducted by Members of that House. He should not have added a single word on the subject, if it were not for what had been said

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by the hon. Member for Westminster— that a communication had been made to the Treasury, at the time of the arrangement of the Exchequer office, with respect to Mr. Beaumont Smith, and the power that he had. He was at the Treasury at the time, and most of the arrangements were carried into execution by himself, he being then Secretary of the Treasury, and he could assure the House that the first time he had ever heard of the slightest information or fact that could excite suspicion in his mind, was not until he saw that the Government was taking measures to pursue an inquiry into this matter. Up to that time there had not been a single hint of any kind to the Government of any fraud being carried on with regard to Exchequer-bills. He had himself the personal arrangement and personal selection of the officers, and he could state distinctly that no recommendation of any kind was attended to, from the chief clerk down to the lowest officer, except those made by Mr. Bedford and Mr. Bully, the proper officers of the Exchequer. Every endeavour, every care, had been bestowed in selecting the most fit officers. No re commendation of any kind had been at tended to except through the public department. Unfortunately this was an in stance that the greatest care could not al ways secure a good public servant; for if there was one individual more than another into whose character and conduct a particular scrutiny was made, it was with regard to this very Mr. Beaumont Smith. It would, he thought, be better not to follow the hon. Baronet opposite into the discussion as to whether the Exchequer-bills came from one door or another of the office. He did not wish to say any thing which might lead to the discussion of a question which was not properly before the House. He entirely concurred in the course proposed by the right hon. Gentleman. He apprehended, from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, that the inquiry was to be as to facts, and the evidence on which those facts rested; but he took it as a matter of course that it was to be referred to the commissioners to ascertain whether parties were entitled to compensation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer:Certainly not.
Mr. Leaderconceived that, according to the evidence, Smith had absolute power, and there was no check upon the exercise of that power.
Colonel Sibthorphad the greatest de sire that a complete investigation should take place as to this important affair, and he confessed, that had not his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer given notice to move for a commission this evening, he would have most cordially seconded the motion of the hon. Member for Monmouth. He thought the measure which his right hon. Friend proposed would be one more likely to succeed in procuring a strict, clear, and impartial examination of all the facts of the case. From the evidence of Lord Monteagle, he thought it quite clear that there had been a want of proper supervision in the office in which Beaumont Smith had been first clerk. He also found that Lord Monteagle had signed Exchequer-bills in places where he had no access to documents which could enable him to decide whether the bills so submitted to him were genuine or not. In taking up the question as he had done, he could have no motive but the one of doing his duty, but when he looked to the acts of Parliament for regulating the business of the Comptroller-general and Assistant Comptroller-general, under whose superintendence the office was placed, he found that their provisions had been violated. The two assistant comptrollers had also signed twice as many bills as the noble Lord himself. He was exceedingly glad the House had sanctioned the measure under which the investigation was to take place, and he called on the right hon. Gentleman to suffer no want of the strictest and most impartial examination, and to let truth be known, let the blame attach to whom it might, whether to the parties who had raised money on the bills, or to those who were charged with the management of the offices. Such an investigation should be carried on with the greatest strictness, and brought before the public with all possible care, and then it would be made evident that means had been taken to arrive at the truth.
Mr. Ricardowould only ask the Go vernment to bring in their bill as soon as possible.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that many hon. Members did not fully understand the statement of the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The question was this: was the commission to extend its enquiries to all the circumstances under which the bills were issued, or merely as to how the holders had become possessed of those

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bills? If the inquiry were to be restricted to the last point, he did not believe that the public would be satisfied. His own opinion was, that the people of this country were quite prepared for Parliament to give remuneration to bonâ fide holders. The people of this country would consider the character of the Government and of the Legislature to be lowered if they allowed any party to lose, in consequence of gross mismanagement in a department of the Government. Conceiving then as he did, that the impression on the public mind was, that the bonâ fide holders of what had turned out to be spurious Exchequer-bills should be compensated for their loss, he thought that the public was entitled to the fullest and most searching investigation as to the manner in which those bills had been issued from the Exchequer-office, or wherever else they might have come from; the public had a full right to be informed of every matter connected with their issue; and if it should appear that that issue of spurious bills had been the effect of any negligence or mismanagement at the Exchequer-office, the public thought that the bonâ fide holders of these bills should not suffer in consequence. In the discussion which must ensue, they would have the opportunity of finding out what was meant by the word responsibility—Government responsibility. He had often wished to find out the true test of the application of the phrase. They often heard such expressions as "this is done upon the responsibility of Government," or "that is done on the responsibility of Government." Well, he supposed that the Exchequer-bills in question had been issued upon the responsibility of Government, and he wished exactly to know what the assertion really meant. He wished to know whether or not it meant that the parties who might be convicted of behaving improperly should be punished. He was not desirous that they should undergo any very acute degree of mental suffering, but he did not approve of the pockets of the people suffering from the faults of certain parties. He, therefore, thought that if any negligence should be discovered as having existed in the Exchequer-bill office, the word "responsibility" should be used in its true meaning. He was anxious for the result of the promised investigation, and if it should appear that negligence
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had existed, and yet that the parties involved in the charge had escaped, he could only say that the opinion of the public as to the value of the expression "responsibility of Government," would be very much lowered.
Mr. S. Worthysaid, his object was to call the attention of the House to a part of the subject which appeared to him to have been overlooked in the discussion. Hon. Gentlemen had directed their attention to the mode in which the issue of the bills in question was said to have taken place, and to the nature of the fraud committed, subjects which would be made matter of further inquiry. But there was another part of the question upon which a few explanatory words were due to the House. He thought it would be as well if his right hon. Friend would explain the steps which had been taken to verify the authenticity of the bills at present in circulation. They knew that certain steps had been taken with this view, but the public might have more confidence in the result of those steps, if it were shown that real means existed for the satisfactory elucidation of the subject. He believed that such would be found to be the case, but still some explanatory statements would prove satisfactory. Another subject to which he would briefly allude was, that it was well known that Government was exposed to considerable obloquy for its step in impounding the spurious Exchequer-bills presented. He had no doubt but that good reasons could be pointed out for the course which had been pursued—but still blame had been cast on the Government for pursuing a course which, as the holders of the bills in question believed, had cut off their claims for compensation on the country.
Sir R. Peelrose to make a few observations with reference to what had fallen from the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. Wakley). That hon. Gentleman had asserted that the country was prepared to give compensation to the bonâ fide holders of spurious Exchequer bills. Now, he hoped the House would not at once give its sanction to any such principle. It was most desirable to have a full and searching inquiry into the circumstances connected with the issue of the bills in question. It was quite clear that the principle eon-tended for by the hon. Member, ought not to be established until the full facts of the question had been laid before the House,

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His right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had been quite misunderstood, if it was implied from anything which he had said that he meant to state that all the holders of spurious bills were to be charged with negligence, much less with criminality. But still there might be cases in which criminality might be proved, and he was, therefore, most anxious that the House should be well assured of the facts of the case, by means of the most searching inquiry, before they proceeded to discuss any matter relating to compensation. The hon. Member for Finsbury had inquired whether the investigation of the commission moved for would be a complete one. He apprehended that it could not be otherwise. The commission would have power to protect the Crown, as well as to guarantee the interests of individuals; and it would have full power to call for persons, papers, and records—to inquire how the bills came into the possession of the several holders—and generally to as certain all the circumstances of the cases presented to its notice. He did not think it either necessary or expedient to go further into the question at present. With reference to the question put, as to the means which the Government had taken to inquire into the genuineness of the Exchequer-bills at present in circulation, he would merely refer to the premium at which Exchequer-bills stood, as a pretty plain proof that the public was satisfied with the means which had been taken to ascertain their authenticity. To go through the exact mode by which the point in question had been ascertained, would, he thought, answer no good purpose. The public, he repeated, was satisfied that the investigation had been an effectual one. He trusted that the House would avoid giving expression to any opinion with reference to compensation to the holders of spurious bills. It was a subject involving extended interests, and of much importance. It would come legitimately under the notice of the House at a future period. He trusted, therefore, that the House would avoid expressing any opinion upon the subject of compensation until the full facts of the subject should be before it.
Dr. Bowringthought the ends of justice would be satisfied by the course adopted by the right hon. Gentleman. He hoped no time would be lost in carrying through the bill, in order that the com mission might proceed with their inquiries
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as soon as possible. If the Government could communicate anything further with reference to the character of the commission, he was sure in the present stale of affairs it would be received by the public with the greatest satisfaction.
Mr. Turnerwished to know what steps had been taken with the view of ascertaining the amount of spurious bills issued. It was possible that Rapallo might have carried off large quantities with him He wished also that when the decision of the commission should have been come to, and which he hoped would be as speedily as possible—if that decision should be in favour of compensation to the holders— that then a time should be appointed for the settlement of their claims, and a period should be fixed beyond which no application should be received. After the opinion expressed by the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, he felt it would be exceedingly unbecoming in him to pro long this discussion; but there was a circumstance that had occurred within his personal knowledge some years ago, which as somewhat analogous to the present case, he should take that opportunity of mentioning. About twenty-five years ago, it happened that 1,000 1l. notes in blank, having been incautiously left on the counter of the Tenbury bank, were stolen. It was matter of notoriety in the neighbourhood that the circumstance had occurred, and in the course of two months after wards, nearly the whole of those notes were returned and presented at the bank, forged. It became, therefore, a question with the proprietary of the bank, with which he was connected, how far the public had a right to call upon them for payment under such circumstances, and they certainly did come to the conclusion that they should, and they did, pay those notes. That they considered but justice, and he had no doubt that ample justice would also be done in the present case.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that the hon. Member for the West Riding of Yorkshire had alluded to the impounding of the forged Exchequer-bills. He could only say in reply, that it was considered to be most expedient not to leave masses of such bills in circulation; and as he had been assured by the highest legal authorities that the course most proper to he adopted was, that of impounding the 1 spurious bills, directions to that effect had

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been given and acted upon. Notice, how ever, had been given to each of the holders of the detained bills that if they were required for the purpose of furthering the ends of justice or the claim of their proprietors, the bills in question would be at all times accessible for such purposes. The best proof of the correctness of this statement was the fact, that parties had actually obtained their bills for the purposes alluded to, and, when those purposes had been answered, had again re turned the bills to the Exchequer-office. As to the question put, with respect to the time when claims of compensation would be settled, supposing the commission to decide in favour of that compensation, he begged leave to state, that the hon. Member for Truro, in putting the question, had misunderstood the sphere of operations of the commission. The question of compensation was not to be referred to the commission at all.
Mr. Blewitthoped the right hon. Gentleman would not prejudice the claims of bonâ fide holders by describing, in the title of his bill, the spurious bills as "forged."
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould see no difficulty, if the clauses of the bill were altered in that respect, to have the title modified accordingly.
Sir R. Inglishoped there would be no objection to introducing the word "issue" before "receipt and circulation."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad no objection to that alteration being made in the resolution.
Mr. Blewittgave notice that when the bill was brought in he should move that the word "forged" be expunged.
Mr. Kembleput it to the right hon. Gentleman whether "repudiated" would not answer his purpose quite as well as "forged." He felt the inconvenience of prolonging the present discussion, or he could state facts which had come to his knowledge which would convince the right hon. Gentleman that they should not by the use of any word imply at once that these bills were "forged."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerapprehended that the title would by no means bind the House; if the details were altered in committee the title might afterwards be altered in conformity with them. He could state very good reasons why the word "repudiated" should not be substituted.
Mr. Hawessaid, that an effort would be made, by those claiming compensation, to prove that the bills were not forged.
Sir T. Wilde:Why not use the words "alleged to be forged" That description would meet the views of all parties.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not think' "alleged to be forged" would be an improvement. It might happen that many genuine bills were "alleged to be forged," and the commission would so far be pursuing an irrelevant investigation. He would take the point into consideration, but would rather not alter the phraseology until he was perfectly aware what the effect of the alteration might be. In the meanwhile, as the title did not affect the possibility of making any alterations in the provisions of the bill which might be thought necessary, he would certainly rather adhere to it as it was.
Mr. Hawesunderstood the right hon. Gentleman to insist on the retention of the word, not as a declaration on his part, or on the part of the Government, that those bills were forged—that matter being left open to the consideration of the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he left that question entirely open to the consideration of the House. He adhered, however, to his own title, until he should be satisfied that it was wrong. If the House altered the bill in committee, the title, as he had already stated, might be changed as well.
Leave given to bring in a bill for appointing commissioners to inquire as to the issue, receipt, circulation, and possession of certain forged Exchequer-bills.

RAILROADS (IRELAND).
Mr. F. Frenchrose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move—
"That the House resolve itself into a committee of the whole House, for the purpose of preparing an address to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased to recommend to Parliament that such measures shall be taken as may appear most likely to secure to Ireland the advantages of railway communication."
He said this subject could not fairly be considered a party question, and he should certainly have brought it under the notice of the House had his right hon. Friends near him continued in office. He had more than once declared in that House his strong conviction, that unless her

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Majesty's Government undertook the construction of railways in Ireland, or gave considerable assistance towards their formation, that country would to an indefinite period be deprived of those great means of social improvement. The period which had since elapsed had strengthened his conviction, and must, he thought, have shown to the most sanguine advocates of the private enterprise system that any hopes they might have entertained of these objects being attained by such means were utterly fallacious, and he was pre pared to show by numerous documents that such was their opinion, two of which he had selected, as they had been already made public in pamphlets. The first was the opinion of a gentleman well known in the scientific world, Captain Moorsom, an active and intelligent director of one of the largest of the English railway companies, who stated—
"He was bound by duty and disposed by inclination to uphold the interests of those who elected him as director, and though he at one time partook of the current impression that works of this nature were best left to private enterprise, experience had since convinced him of the contrary; that it appeared to him the most important object of railways was the benefit of the public who were to use them, and that their construction under parliamentary control by advances of public money would more effectually and permanently secure that benefit than their construction by means of the capital of private individuals, and he contended that railways should not be allowed to fall into the hands of joint-stock companies in Ireland, for three reasons. 1. Because in that country a system might now be carried into effect which should avoid the evils arising out of the want of such a system in England; 2, because by advancing public money for such works Ireland would come at once into the enjoyment of the many and great advantages of railway communication, and thus, in that respect, keep pace with England; and,3,because the public would have persons and goods conveyed at the lowest fares and rates compatible with the existence of railways."
Mr. Bermingham,chairman to the general Irish Railway Committee stated that—
"He had worked strenuously and earnestly for private enterprise so long as he had reason to believe it was capable of carrying out the system in a comprehensive manner, but so soon as he ascertained that without great pecuniary assistance from the state it was out of the question to expect that the leading lines so necessary to Ireland could be made, he yielded his first opinion, and became a thorough
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convert to the principle that if an extended system of railroads (which the wants of Ireland demanded) was ever to be made, it must be by the State."
The question then narrowed itself to this,—were they sitting then in the Parliament of the United Kingdom to deny to so large a portion of the empire as Ireland the power of raising a sufficient sum on her own credit, and upon the most ample security, for the purpose of obtaining these valuable means of developing her neglected resources, and of ameliorating, which all must admit to be desirable and necessary, the condition of her people? To prove that no other means were left to them than those of Government construction or Government interference, it was alone necessary to refer to the feeble and disjointed efforts of private enterprise in Ireland for accomplishing this object during a period which had been remarkable for the greatest possible degree of private exertion and public excitement on the subject of railways. Up to the year 1838 inclusive, 112 private acts were passed for the construction of railways in England and Wales, 21 for Scotland, and but 8 for Ireland. The proportions of national prospects indicated by those numbers must awaken painful reflections in the minds of the Irish people; but the relative position of that country in the race of national improvement was never less favourable than these figures would lead them to imagine. Up to the present moment five out of those eight acts remained a dead letter; and whilst they contemplated the extraordinary impulse given to commerce in this country by means of the railroads already in operation, which traversed it in every direction, and those in progress of construction, turn to Ireland and they would find that six miles of railway from Dublin to Kingstown, and seven from Belfast to Lisburn, since carried on to Portseadown, were all that private speculation, during that period of excitement, had been enabled to accomplish in that country. Whether this had been caused, as some considered, from the report of the Railway Commissioners having underrated the probable advantages derivable from this mode of investing capital in Ireland, or from the absence of capital in that country applicable to such works, or, as others contended, from the uncertainty existing in the minds of capitalists as

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to the intentions of Government, he should not take on himself to deliver an opinion. The facts were unfortunately as he had stated, and so were they apparently destined to remain. There was no disposition on the part of the public to invest money in Irish speculations. According to the last report of the directors of the Dublin and Kingstown railway that line was returning a net profit of 8 per cent.; notwithstanding which its shares were at a discount of 25 per cent. It might be well to briefly run over what had been done in reference to this great question by her Majesty's late Government. On the 28th of October, 1836, in accordance with an address from the other House of Parliament, a Royal Commission was issued to the late Mr. Drummond, Sir John Burgoyne, Professor Barlow, and Mr. Griffith, the head of the Ordnance Survey in Ireland, gentlemen of the highest ability, who were directed to consider a general system of railways in Ireland, either by a survey or otherwise, such as would serve as a guide to the le gislature in any future projects that might be brought before them; and also to in quire into the best mode of directing the developement of this new and important means of intercourse to the channel whereby the greatest advantages might be obtained at the smallest outlay. They were also desired to take into consideration, not only the existing means which the country presented, but those which might be anticipated from the resources to be in future developed, and they were to take into consideration the point from which the communication with America might be best carried on. On the 11th of March, 1837, their first report was presented; it was a short one, merely showing the difficulties of the question submitted to their consideration, the conflicting interests it involved, and the necessity for maturely considering it in all its important bearings. It, however, contained ah important statement, one which made a most unfavourable impression on the minds of those capitalists who were disposed to embark their money in railway Undertakings in Ireland—namely, that the selection of the leading lines ought not to be left to private companies. Now, as it was vain to expect that private parties would embark their money in speculations of this nature without the most perfect freedom of choice in the lines likely to
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prove remunerative undertakings, the effect of this declaration of the commissioners was sufficient to destroy, and in fact did destroy, all hopes of railroads in Ireland from private enterprise, and this he contended gave them great and peculiar claims on the consideration of Parliament, as at the time that report was made there was every reason to suppose that both the Kilkenny and the Western lines would have been made by private companies. On the 13th of June, 1838, their second report was laid on the Table of this House. That important and valuable document, which had been attributed, he believed correctly, to one of the ablest men of the day, the late Mr. Drummond—a report which contained as much knowledge, as much research, and as much information as were ever presented in any public document by persons appointed under a commission from the Crown—that report clearly proved that the system which had been pursued in respect of railroads in this country was wholly fallacious; it showed beyond the possibility of refutation, that these great works ought not to be left in Ireland, as here, to be accomplished by separate and isolated lines, constructed by companies whose chief aim and object must be their private interest; and it recommended, as the only means by which the great evils of the English system could be avoided, a well-combined and judicious system of railways to be executed by the Government in Ireland, under regulations to be enforced by effective superintendence and control. The danger of leaving these works to private companies, the unnecessary expenses both legal and Parliamentary incurred, the extravagant demands for compensation from landowners or others, the vexatious opposition and ruinous competition of rival companies, were all pointed out; every item of which expense must eventually be defrayed by the public, and that those expenses were of no trifling nature was shown by the re turns before the House. For parliamentary and other preliminary expenses, compensation, &c, eight railway lines in Eng land had to pay the enormous sum of 1,137,000 l., 15½ per cent. on their entire cost. The London and Birmingham company, whose railway was 112½ miles in length paid for parliamentary expenses 72,868 l., for compensation or preliminary expenses 735,087 l.; the Great Western,

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117½ miles in length, upwards of 100,000 l. for parliamentary, and 720,000 l. for other expenses. The expenses of the Brighton line before Parliament exceeded 100,00 l.; they paid for land 400,000 l. The South Western 75½ miles, paid for parliamentary expenses 42,000 l., for compensation 298,000 l. The original estimate for the London and Birmingham was 2,500,000 l.; it cost 5,690,375 l. 4s. 7d. The estimate for the Great Western was 2,500,000 l.; it cost 4,508,160 l. 3s. 4d. The estimate for the Liverpool and Manchester was 300,000 l., it cost 1,430,304 l. 18 s. 5d. The estimate for the South Western was 1,000,000 l.; it cost upwards of 2,000,000 l. The result of all this was, that the public had to pay a higher rate of fares for rail way travelling by 120 per cent. than would have been the case had a system similar to that pursued by the Belgian government been adopted. He found the weekly amount received in the month of September last, on the thirty lines of railway, the traffic returns of which were published, was 88,503 l. 17 s. 1d., at which rate the annual receipts would amount to 5,002,200 l. 8s. 4d. The fare from London to Liverpool, in a first class carriage was 2l. 13 s., the distance being 195 miles, or an average of 3¾d. per passenger per mile. Now, it appeared from the official report published by the minister of public works in Belgium, M. Nothomb, that the fare chargeable in a first class carriage in Belgium was about 1½d. per mile per passenger; so that the public were charged in this country about 120 per cent, higher for railway travelling than they were in Belgium. Allow 20 per cent, on the receipts in this country, on account of the natural advantages in levels which Belgium possessed, and assuming there was the same difference in the carriage of parcels as of passengers, still you had, by the errors of your system, entailed an annual tax on the public in respect of this mode of travelling to the enormous amount of 2,500,000 l. sterling. This was calculating the charge of conveyance of passengers at 3½d. per head per mile. In many of the acts which had been passed, the companies had the power of charging at the rate of 6d. per head per mile; in two acts no limit was fixed in the tonnage dues; there was a most extraordinary want of uniformity in the different acts; the carriage of limestone
1406
varied from 1d. to 3d. per ton per mile; just 200 per cent; coal from ½d. to 4d.— 800 per cent; manufactured goods from 2d. to 6d.—300 per cent.; and sheep from ¼d. per mile to 3d., or 1,100 per cent. Was it desirable that such a system as this should be extended to Ireland? Attention was drawn by the report to the obvious fact, that as railway speed increased the expenses of the line were increased in a high proportion; and that there, therefore, existed the strongest temptations to railway companies to diminish the velocity to a rate little exceeding that of the modes of conveyance they had superseded, an evil which could only be corrected by the most objectionable means of ex post facto legislation. The commissioners merely re marked that the great errors which had been committed in England were mainly attributable to the suddenness with which the invention had burst upon the country, as well as to the imperfect view which had been taken, both of its extraordinary power, and the extent to which the public interests were involved in its just application and management, and they called on the House to preserve Ireland, where the ground was yet untrodden, from similar acts, and to secure to it, as they then could, and now could do, at a moderate expense, all the advantages which railways were capable of affording. He had mentioned, that prior to this report, eight rail way acts for Ireland had been obtained— one for constructing a railway from the city of Limerick to the town of Carrick, in the county of Tipperary, passed in 1826; the Dublin and Kingstown Act in 1831; this line was opened to the public in 1834. In 1832 an act was passed for making a short line from Belfast to some quarries in its neighbourhood, called the Belfast and Case hill Railway. In 1836 two companies, the Ulster and the Dublin and Drogheda, obtained their acts, and three in 1837— namely, the Dundalk and Ballybay, the Dublin and Kilkenny, and the Cork and Passage. The two most important of these were the Dublin and Drogheda, and the Dublin and Kilkenny, the first projecting the great northern, the second the great southern line of railway. The Drogheda company had a capital of 600,000 l., half of which had been subscribed by share-holders in Liverpool and Manchester; they had, according to their own statement, purchased seven miles of the way leading from Dublin, and had expended upwards

1407
of 100,000 l. Still, so necessary did the combined system appear to the commissioners, that they recommended that another line, differing from, but parallel to, the Drogheda, should be undertaken by Government. Sanguine, indeed, must the speculator have been who could imagine two parallel lines of railway in Ireland were likely to prove remunerative. The directors, as shareholders of the Drogheda company, did not think so, and the report of the commissioners put a complete stop to the progress of the work. It was true they had again resumed, and they were six years after the passing of their act carrying out its provisions, and it was but justice to say, in a manner highly profit able to themselves. The public must reap very considerable advantages from this line when connected with the Ulster; a direct railway communication would be opened between Belfast and the entire north of Ireland with Dublin. In resuming work this company was more fortunate than their southern cotemporary and the other companies he had mentioned, not one of which had shown the slightest appearance of returning animation. To remedy those evils, to give to Ireland the advantage of railway communication, or, in his own words, "to promote the practical, the material benefit of the Irish people," his noble Friend, the late Secretary for Ireland, early in the Session of 1839 brought forward his measure for executing the lines recommended by the commissioners as public works, and obtained,' by a majority of 44, the sanction of Parliament, to an outlay of 2,500,000 l. for that purpose. This sum he proposed should be exclusively appropriated to the construction of the southern line from Dublin to Cork. He (Mr. French), in common with others, hailed this project of the, noble Lord as a happy omen for the future prosperity of Ireland, and he endeavoured to impress on him and on the House, at the time it appeared successfully, that this sum would be more beneficially employed, and would tend more to develope the resources of the country, by constructing a given portion of three great lines, north, south, and west, to Carickmacross, Cashel, and Athlone. In this view he was strongly supported by the majority of the petitions presented to the House, and by the unanimous resolutions of public meetings in Ireland, called after the Government plan had been made
1408
known. At a very numerous and influential meeting, held at the Thatched-house, the 20th of April, 1839, it was unanimously agreed to,
"That it is expedient that three great leading lines of railway in Ireland—one to the north, one to the south, and one to the west, should be simultaneously constructed; and, secondly, that any aid to railways in Ireland ought to be distributed in due proportion to the three provinces."
It was also resolved, at a meeting held at the Carlton Club, the right hon. Member for the University of Dublin (now Baron Lefroy) in the chair,
"That the introduction of the railway sys tem into Ireland under the control and direction of the State, if conducted upon perfectly impartial principles, is entitled to our most warm support."
No opportunity, however, was afforded of discussing these details, as his noble Friend, on account of the opposition offered to his plan by the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tarn worth, found himself compelled to abandon his mea sure. In 1840 he brought forward another, the principle of which was, that the necessary funds were to be advanced by private parties, to whom a certain rate of interest of 4 per cent, was to be guaranteed by those counties in Ireland which were supposed to be benefitted by the proposed work. This measure was printed, but on account of the political difficulties of Government, was never brought under the consideration of Parliament. The subject had been under discussion in that House upwards of six years, and as the Minister of Public Works in France remarked to the Chamber of Deputies last month, when laying before them his extensive plan for the formation of railroads in that country, "we had much lost time to make up." However he might personally regret the political changes which had taken place, he (Mr. French) sincerely hoped that the noble Lord who had succeeded to the office of Chief Secretary for Ireland would with equal anxiety to promote the interest, of that country, as all who were acquainted with him must admit him to have, prove to have greater power than his noble Friend to carry through the other House of Parliament measures by which Ireland might be rendered a source of strength and advantage, in place of weakness and disgrace, to the empire. It appeared to him, from the course pursued by the right

1409
hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth, when this subject was under discussion, that he was not very strongly impressed with the advantages of extending railway communication throughout the kingdom. Should his supposition be correct, the right hon. Gentleman stood alone amongst the statesmen of Europe in this opinion. The powerful resources of France, the disposable income of Belgium, the limited means of the small German and Italian states, Prussia, Saxony, Russia, the cautious Government of Austria, the enterprising spirit of the United States, were all struggling towards one common object —the extension of railway communication throughout their respective dominions. France had now completed, or in progress, 350 miles of railway, in which capital to the amount of 7,000,000 l. sterling was embarked; in addition to which M. Teste, the minister of Public Works, had a measure before the Chambers to allocate 20,000,000 l. sterling to construct five great lines from Paris to the different boundaries of the country. Belgium had by M. Nothomb's report 350 miles, and had expended about 5,000,000 l.; Austria, according to the Chevalier Von Geisner, had 410 miles, and a capital of 2,500,000 l. in addition to which a further sum of 8,000,000 l. was about to be allocated; Prussia had 300 miles, and a capital of 2,000,000 l.; Saxony, eighty miles, and a capital of 900,000 l.; America had completed 3,430, with a capital of 20,000,000 l. There were in progress 2,000 miles, with a capital of 15,000,000 l.; in addition to which there were proposed lines, some of which had been undertaken, to the extent of 5,948 miles. All this might be said to be the work of the last ten years, prior to 1830 there were but three-short lines throughout the United States—theQuincy in Massachusetts, but four miles, and two short ones in Pennsylvania, the Maunch Chunk and the Corbondale. Independent of the assistance given by the state governments to the different corporations, by whom the greater portion of these lines were constructed, sixteen railways were executed at the sole expense of the state governments, two in Pennsylvania, one in Georgia, one in Indiana, three in Michigan, and nine in Illinois. England had completed 1,750 miles of railway at an expense of 60,000,000 l. sterling, 10,120,000 l. of-which had been swallowed up by parliamentary and preliminary ex
1410
penses. Of this sum Mr. Hyde Clerk calculated 6,720,000 l. were absolutely, and unnecessarily wasted, a larger sum than would have constructed all the pro posed railways in Ireland. Why should: the Legislature of this country be more indifferent to the interests of its inhabitants than France, Belgium, Austria, or America? It was peculiarly an English object that the most remote parts of Ire land should be connected as intimately and as closely as possible with herself; and it was by opening to every part of that, country the most direct and easy modes of communication with this, that that identity of feeling and interest could be obtained on which depended the prosperity and permanence of the union of the two countries. This was well put in a pamphlet which had recently been published. The writer said,—
"Railways and steam are effecting a new economization of life, of business, of government, which neither ignorance can stop nor interest interrupt. They will be the great re generating powers of Ireland. They will introduce into that country not only the muscle, but the mind, the enterprise, and the security of England, and impart to her new life, new feelings, new objects, and new interests. The more the case is considered, do advantages, benefits, conveniences, and accommodations multiply. It opens to Ireland, as it were, a new world, and discloses her re sources to the enterprise and public spirit of England. In fact, it will call into existence a' union which nothing can repeal."
He trusted that these considerations, would have their due weight and influence, on the mind of the right hon. Baronet, and that he would accord to them, as he, had the power of doing, either by adopting or by any other mode he might consider, more expedient, those means, the most effective which modern science had discovered, for calling into action the powers and capabilities so long dormant amongst, them. He had a soil to deal with, rich from the fallow of centuries of neglect; and amply would any outlay he might deem it advisable to make be repaid. From the opposition which any advance for public works to Ireland uniformly met with in Parliament, the House might naturally suppose that any assistance given to that country in this way must be attended with loss or at least with considerable risk. They might not be pre pared to hear that the very reverse was the

1411
fact. The State, on the contrary, had derived very considerable profit on loans made to Ireland. The system had hitherto been to lend money for eleven years, repayable within that period by instalments at the interest of 5 per cent. The interest on 100 l. for eleven years, at 5 per cent, would amount to 55 l., receivable by the State; the State paid for the same sum for the like period an interest of 3 per cent., which would amount to 33 l., gaining therefore 22 per cent. on the transaction. He found by a parliamentary paper that the money advanced by way of loan out of the consolidated fund in Ireland, from the 5th of January, 1809, to the 5th of January, 1834, was as follows:—

Post roads

£456,000

Turnpike debentures

41,000

Public works

634,000

Ditto

12,000

Ditto

43,000

Ditto

96,000

Ditto

85,000

Repairs of roads and bridges

36,000

making in all the sum of 1,403,000 l. so lent during that period; the difference of interest gained by the nation on this advance amounted to no less a sum than 308,660 l. This was, however, a mere trifle in comparison with the important national advantages resulting from the outlay, shown by the increasing revenue and the improved condition of the people. It was in evidence that an expenditure of 60,000 l. in the south of Ireland brought an increase to the revenue of 50,000 l. a year. The calculation, therefore, of the Railway Commissioners was not exaggerated. Men of great professional ability and experience, not likely to be influenced by Irish enthusiasm, or rashly to hazard an opinion, would tell you that an annual increase of 6,000,000 l. to the revenue might be expected from giving us the use of the national credit alone. Let not the House underrate the importance of Ireland as an integral portion of the empire. Although the revenue of that country might be proportionally smaller as com pared with her extent and population than that of Great Britain, it had been, and was, gradually and steadily increasing. In the year 1793 it amounted to 1,000,000 l., at present it had reached about 4,500,000 l. Taking the tea and other duties paid in this country into account it exceeded 5,000,000 l. By the parliamentary paper
1412
ordered by the House of Commons to be printed, 28th April, 1841, No. 273, they found, that for the first five years after the Union Ireland paid into the British Exchequer 14,113,307 l., which was about one-fourteenth of the national revenue. During the five years ending 1840 she had paid 19,495,971 l., which was about one-twelfth of the national revenue. The in crease of her imports and exports during the last twenty years had been most remarkable. As to the exports—horned cattle, in 1825,64,000; in 1835, 99,000; and at the same ratio, in 1845, they would amount to 153,000. In like man ner,

1825.

1835.

1845.

Sheep

72,000

126,000

220,000

Pigs had increased nearly sevenfold

66,000

377,000

—

CWT.

CWT.

CWT.

Meal and Flour

600,000

1,981,000

6,540,000

Butter

475,000

872,000

1,600,000

QRS.

QRS.

Wheat and Barley

439,000

590,000

—

According to the returns presented to the House by the Vice-President of the Board of Trade on the 11th of February, the quantity of wheat and wheat flour imported into England from Ireland was, in the year 1825, 336,000 quarters: in 1835, 661,776 quarters. Oats and oatmeal, in the year 1800 but 2,411 quarters, had, in the year 1841, increased to 2,539,380 quarters.

1825.

1835.

1845.

YARDS.

YARDS.

YARDS.

Cottons Manufactured.

4,996,000

14,172,000

40,201,000

Woollens Manufactured.

6,400,000

7,884,000

9,712,000

LBS.

LBS.

LBS.

Tea Manufactured.

3,900,000

4,795,000

5,895,000

Coffee Manufactured.

336,000

1,205,000

4,321,000

This increase showed more strongly than words could do how essential it was to the future prosperity of England that the resources of Ireland should be speedily developed. It would supply a new market for their manufactures, a new supply of food for their artisans, and a new and fertile source of revenue for the State. In proportion as the resources of Ireland were called forth, would the burdens of England be diminished. Those resources

1413
could be fully developed by allowing them to avail themselves of what they had used with no sparing hand for their own purposes—the credit of the United Kingdom. Since 1817 loans to the amount of 12,000,000 l., money borrowed on the credit of the United Kingdom, had been sanctioned by the Exchequer Loan Com missioners for the improvements of Eng land. The largest annual sums voted for this purpose were by the 57th of Geo. 3rd, and the 3rd of Geo. 4lh., when the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Tamworth, was in power. On what principle could he refuse to deal with Ireland in a similar spirit? They asked no more—they would be contented with no less; both justice and enlightened policy demanded that it should be conceded to them. The express condition upon which the Poor-law Bill for Ireland passed through that House was, that considerable assistance should be given to the people by means of public works in that country. Again, there was the importance to this country of facilitating the intercourse with Ireland. Having trespassed so long on the indulgence of the House, he would conclude by submitting the motion which he had already announced.
The Speakersaid, he collected from the observations of the hon. Member, that the object of his motion was to obtain a grant of public money for the purpose of constructing railways in Ireland.
Mr. F, Frenchsaid, he appeared to have been somewhat misunderstood by the way in which he had expressed himself. His object was to call the attention of the Government to this important subject; but not to point out to them any means by which the object in view could be attained. It was simply to make out good grounds for the interference of the Government.
Mr. Shawrose for the purpose of seconding the motion of his hon. Friend. In doing that he had a twofold object. First, he de sired, if possible, to dissuade his hon. Friend from pressing his motion at that moment. His meaning was, that he had an unaffected desire to support the object of his hon. Friend, but he felt that, considering the condition of the public finances, that the financial statement of the Government had not yet been laid before the House, and that they were not in possession of that information which alone could enable them to come to a satisfactory conclusion,
1414
if they came to a decision upon the subject at that time, it must be unfavourable to the views which he held in common with his hon. Friend. He thought it, therefore, unwise and inconvenient that the motion should be pressed. His second object was to state to the House his entire concurrence with his hon. Friend in wishing to promote the introduction of rail ways in Ireland; and he should be sorry to let slip an opportunity of expressing his most anxious desire that all Irish Members should be united in the promotion of a mea sure, the object of which was the real and permanent interest of Ireland, and the development of her national resources, without reference to party differences or the kind of agitation upon which their energies had been thrown away, and which formed an excuse and justification to the House and the Government to overlook those Irish objects of great public moment and importance which, with the cordial good-will and co-operation of all parties in Ire land, might be attained. He would not go into the various points of the subject, but he must say, that from all the information he had been able to procure from the reports of railway companies and committee of that House, he believed that if a system of railways were to be introduced into Ireland, it would be better and more effectual if it were a combined and general system, as distinguished from a system backed by different bodies having separate, and oftentimes, opposite interests. The introduction of a public measure by her Majesty's Government, adopting a general plan as to the management and control of such ways, would greatly facilitate the introduction of a system of railways into Ireland, and it would be highly advantageous if that system were combined, and there were a common station in the metropolis for the three great northern, was tern, and southern lines. He said, that the very difference whether 'the system would be remunerative or not would turn on the fact, whether they were conducted on that general and common principle, or as mere private speculations. One great object was the facility of communication between London and Dublin, and he would venture an opinion, that by combining those cities by means of a railway through Wales, the whole journey might be per formed in the time that was now consumed in an average passage between Dublin and Liverpool—namely, fourteen

1415
hours; and that, indeed, was One reason why he was anxious that they should come to no premature decision. But, besides saving time, when London and Dublin were connected by means of that railway, they would then have a point whence to start main trunks through every part of the country, And if Irish Members and Irish interests did prevail with the Government to countenance that improvement, and the opening of a system of railways throughout Ireland on a general and combined principle, they would have some public spirited persons taking it up, and he was persuaded there would be a full return for the money that might be expended; he did not mean by the indirect means of an improved condition of the country, but by a direct return in the way of public economy; by the saving of Post-office communication and otherwise, the Government would save a sum considerably greater than any they would be called upon to spend in promoting the object which he was so anxious in the main to see established. If, however, his hon. Friend should persist in his motion, as he considered that they had not sufficient information before them at that period, he would ask his noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland not at present to come to any decision on the subject, or at least, not to come to any unfavourable decision respecting it.
Mr. Redingtonsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had backed the motion of his hon. Friend in a very indifferent manner. The House was then called upon to say whether this Government, as the former one had done, should support the introduction of railways in Ireland. He would speak of the report of the Railway Commissioners with the greatest respect as to the ability with which it had been drawn up, but he considered that it was not such a report as justified the Government in carrying into effect an universal system of railways in that country; and he confessed he had great doubt whether, by the Go vernment taking upon itself the entire regulation of those railways, they might not be travelling too fast. He knew that much might be done by the encouragement of public works—which after all did not pay, and that more distress might be created by holding out hopes that might never be realised. But at the same time he must say, that a great deal was due to Ireland in the way of promoting intercourse
1416
with that country, and increasing her resources. When hon. Gentlemen had been legislating for the last fortnight upon a subject materially affecting the agricultural interests of Ireland, they ought to be more liberal in encouraging the construction of public works in that country. He did not wish to ask her Majesty's Ministers to come forward and propose a grant of public money, but he thought that the bill which was laid on the Table of that House in the early part of last year, containing a provision that acts for railways in Ireland should be public and not private acts, proposed a much better system than was adopted in England. If, indeed, the Government had exercised a more general superintendence over rail ways in this country many of those difficulties, respecting which inquiries were then going on, might have been avoided. Before he sat down he would refer to a petition which he had presented to the House, praying that the railways from Belfast to Portadown, and from Dublin to Drogheda, might be united. He believed that that proposition was made by parties equally interested in both those railways. They did not seek pecuniary aid, they wished the road to be completed, and all they sought was a certain guarantee on the part of the Government of a small interest on their capital. All they asked from the Government was a guarantee of 4 per cent. upon one-half of the principal advanced; but with that guarantee they could at once sink their capital, and give the Government a mortgage of all the railway property. In conclusion he would suggest to the Government, that without being called upon to advance considerable sums of money, they might extend, even in the present condition of their finances, considerable aid with regard to railways in Ireland, by giving facilities to bills being passed through that House in the same way as had been done in the case of several of the railways in this country.
Lord Eliotsaid, that before the hon. Gentleman (Mr. French) answered the question which had been put by the Speaker, he was about to acknowledge the very candid and manly manner in which he had explained the object of his motion. He confessed, however, that from the answer which the hon. Gentle man gave to that question, he was at a loss to understand what the hon. Gentle-

1417
man proposed. The motion of the hon. Gentleman was,—
"That this House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, for the purpose of preparing an Address to her Majesty, praying that she would be graciously pleased to recommend to Parliament that such measures shall be taken as may appear most likely to secure to Ireland the advantages of railway communication."
The whole gist of the speech of his hon. Friend had been to show that no other means could avail for that purpose. Whether the hon. Gentlemen were right might be questionable; but he stated that without Government security no railways could be established in Ireland. He had himself some little difficulty on the subject, and was afraid of being misunderstood because, if he objected to the motion, it might be supposed that he took entirely different views from his hon. Friend, and under-valued the importance of railways in Ire land. He meant, however, no such thing, because, although he did not go quite the same length as his hon. Friend, still he was prepared to admit that great comfort, convenience, and advantage—and above all, the employment of the labouring classes, which, though not the only thing needful, was the one most needful to those classes, would result from the introduction of railways in Ireland. No one could see the labouring classes in Ireland without wishing to remove them from the state in which they were placed, and every one who knew that a stimulus only was wanting to their energies, and that with that stimulus, those energies might easily be called forth, must be most anxious to afford them a field for their exertions. But the plan which his hon. Friend pro posed would bring them back to the point at which they had arrived in the year 1839; and here he would take that, the first opportunity he had had, of naming his noble predecessor in that House, to acknowledge the obligation he felt to the noble Lord for offering to him, in the most liberal manner, such advice and information as he was able to give with respect to Ireland. The private character of that noble Lord required no eulogy; but, from all that was known and heard of him in Ireland, he had carried away with him the good wishes of all classes of the community, and his political opponents bore no unwilling testimony to the kindness of his heart and the generosity of his disposi-
1418
tion. Now, his noble predecessor had proposed, in 1839, as his hon. Friend had said, a plan, the object of which was to recognise the principle that the Government would undertake the construction of railways throughout Ireland. There was to be, he believed, some sort of security upon the county cess; and in the event of the returns of the railways not being sufficient to pay the expense, the Government was to be repaid by that rate. That, however, was a species of security almost illusory. In the first place, if anything like great distress occurred in Ireland, no Government could reimburse itself at such a time from that source; and it would be in the recollection of the House and of those hon. Members who took a part in that discussion, that the sum charged upon the county cess for the railways was by no means small. Mr. Griffith, the railway commissioner had stated, that the amount of the liability varied from 8d. and 9d. to 1s. 10 d. and 2s. 2d. an acre. But the county cess already amounted to from 3s. 6d. to 4s. an acre; and he thought that the additional charge upon the counties would, in many cases, be such as they would be unwilling to incur. He knew not whether any arrangement was to be made for dividing the burden between the owner and the occupier of the land; but if the change were to be borne by the occupying tenant, those persons who might derive little advantage from those railways, for several years might be saddled with a considerable part of that charge. It was true, that Parliament had confirmed the proposition of the noble Lord by majorities of forty and forty-four; but it must be recollected, that the proposition was so coldly received, although confirmed by the House, that the noble Lord took no other step respecting it. Nothing further was done until 1841, when the noble Lord brought forward a proposition, the principle of which he considered to be unobjectionable. The noble Lord facilitated the coming together of capitalists, and those parties who were interested in the completion of railways, and proposed that certain arrangements should be made between them. That principle was, he thought, unobjectionable. The whole duty of the Government was to take care that the arrangement was reasonable and satisfactory; but from what he had heard and seen in Ireland, he believed there was a considerable hesitation in the

1419
country to accede to the proposition. He was unwilling, on the part of the Government, to hold out any expectations which might lead to disappointment. It was better at once to say, that the Government could not consent to any plan which would involve an expenditure of the public money. The Railway Commissioners had pointed out certain modes, and the Government conceived them to be legitimate modes, by which the establishment of railways in Ireland might be facilitated. They recommended that, if private individuals could be found who were willing to furnish the capital necessary for establishing a railway in Ireland, the Government should interpose to protect them against being saddled with unnecessary expenses—that they should not be charged with the expenses usually consequent on obtaining an act of Parliament, and that the mode of determining the amount of compensation established on some fixed principle, independent of private and local bias. To such an extent as that he and his Colleagues were disposed to facilitate the enterprise of private individuals; but beyond that they thought it would be impolitic to go. The hon. Mover had referred to the example of continental states, and he was surprised that France, amongst others, had been adverted to, because the system pursued in that country was diametrically opposed to that which had always been followed in this. Public works in France were invariably conducted at the expense of the government, and private enterprise was almost unknown. Belgium, again, was a small country, and the expense of constructing railroads could consequently be easily ascertained. The case was different with respect to Ire land. If the Government should deter mine on granting the means for establishing a railroad between Dublin and Cork, they would soon be called upon to render similar assistance to other lines from the north and west. The hon. Member had talked about England treating Ireland like a step-child, if she refused pecuniary aid to the establishment of railroads in that country; but surely it must be allowed that every disposition to serve Ireland had been evinced by the appointment of the most eminent engineers to survey the country. Their report was be fore the public, and private individuals who wished to embark in speculations had I an opportunity of knowing the grounds
1420
on which they were about to proceed. The official surveys would materially assist the operations of private companies. The hon. Member said, that it was impossible to find persons in Ireland willing to invest their capital in railroads; but he could state, on the best authority, that the shares in the Dublin and Drogheda, and Dublin and Ulster railroads were better paid up by the Irish than by the English shareholders, and that there had been fewer shares forfeited by the former than by the latter. The hon. Member had referred to the enormous increase in the amount of the Irish imports and exports, but he (Lord Eliot) could not see how an inference could be drawn from that fact favourable to a grant of money for the establishment of railroads in Ireland. For the reasons he had stated, he must, though with great reluctance, object to the motion before the House. The course which the Government felt it its duty to take on this occasion might be liable to misconstruction in Ireland but he thought it better to meet the proposition of the hon. Member, not, indeed, with a direct negative, but with the more courteous proceeding of moving the previous question, than, by acceding to the motion, give rise to expectations which the Government had no intentions to satisfy.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, the House was now informed that the Government would do nothing in this matter. The noble Lord was not justified in disparaging the security of the Irish counties. It might be a question whether it was good policy to look to such security, but as to its solvency there could be no doubt. All the public works in Ireland had been executed by means of the same security. The in formation which the noble Lord had received as to the counties not consenting to the construction of the railroads was not correct. He had reason to believe that most of the counties were prepared to support the undertakings. In most of the counties the grand juries who impose the cess had actually declared their assent. Some counties had made no declaration on the subject; but be believed he could be borne out in stating, that in none bad the grand juries declared against the rail roads. If the counties were to be absolutely liable for the cost of construction, the case would be different, and would require greater consideration; but the counties would have a claim upon the

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revenue of the railroads; and according to the calculations of the intelligent railroad commissioners, there was no probability that the counties would ever be called upon to make good a single shilling. He did not agree with those who thought that Government ought not to have the superintendence of railroads in Ireland. The great evil of the English railroads was, that they were not subject to that superintendence. At present they were mere monopolies, and competition was quite out of the question. The railroads in Ireland, at all events, ought to be under the superintendence of the Government. The noble Lord had referred in terms of approbation to the report of the railroad commissioners; but of what value was that report if it were not acted on? One consequence only had resulted from that report. The commissioners had estimated the rate of profit so low, that private speculators were deterred from having any thing to do with railroads. 6 per cent. was the greatest profit which, in the opinion of the commissioners, railroads in Ireland would yield, and every body knew that capitalists would not embark their money in such speculations in the expectation of obtaining no greater return. Lord Morpeth abandoned his plan, not because he was convinced of its impolicy, but because he foresaw that it would meet with such a degree of opposition in that and the other House, as would render it impossible to bring it to a successful issue. In the few observations he had made, he bad endeavoured to avoid uttering a single Word which was calculated to excite an angry feeling, and under all the circum stances of the case, he would recommend his hon. Friend not to press his motion to a division.
Lord Eliothad not intended to question the security of the Irish counties; what he said was, that in the event of the failure of railroads, it would be very inconvenient to come upon the occupier of the land. Grand juries were not the representatives of the rate-payers, and though some of them might have declared in favour of the railroads, he believed a general indisposition to adopt them upon the terms recommended by the hon. Member was manifested throughout the counties. The present Government would folly adopt and carry oat the last proposition brought forward by Lord Morpeth in 1841.
Captain Joneswas convinced that the counties of Ireland would never consent to be taxed by the grand juries in the manner proposed, and that the people would consider Such a tax a great grievance.
Mr. W. S. O'Brienthought it was as well the duty of the Government as the interest of this country, to assist the people of Ireland in forming railways; This country relied oft Ireland for many articles of consumption, and it would; therefore be a positive advantage to bring the remote parts of Ireland, by means of railways, within thirty hours of this metro polis. The whale amount required for the purpose would not be more than 6,000,000 l. or 7,000,000 l., and such a sum, considering the advantages likely to result from its expenditure, ought to be a matter of indifference to the Government.
Mr. Shawin explanation, said, he had not called on his noble Friend to form an opinion and decide officially on the matter. On the contrary, all he had said was to express his hope that his noble Friend would not be premature in forming an opinion in coming to a decision in the absence of proper information.
Sir R. Peel:Sir, I inferred from the speech of the hon. Gentleman who made this motion, as well as from the terms of the motion itself, that the object which be had in view was to recommend that the Government should undertake the construction of railways in Ireland at the public expense; and I must say, that throughout his speech, the object of an advance of public money Was apparent. As, however, the hon. Gentleman disclaimed any such object, I am bound to give full credit to his disclaimer, but, at the same time, I must say, that I never beard a speech from which it could be inferred more clearly, that the object of the speaker was, that the construction of rail ways in Ireland should not be left to private speculation, but undertaken at the public charge. When the Speaker inter posed, and reminded the hon. Gentleman that the form of his motion was inconsistent with the rules of the House—that unless his object was a grant of money he could not move the House into committee to address the Grown—the hon. Gentle man said that his object was not a grant of money; but certainly the disclaimer of the hon. Gentleman was directly at variance, not only with the motion of the

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hon. Gentleman, but with the pretexts which the hon. Gentleman put forward in his speech. The motion of the hon. Gentleman was not for an address to the Crown on the part of the House, but that the House should resolve itself into committee for the purpose of preparing an address to her Majesty, a course which can only be pursued when a pecuniary grant is intended to be recommended to the Crown. The form of the motion, there fore, occasioned my doubt, and I certainly thought, both from his motion and his speech, that the object of the hon. Gentleman was a grant of public money. Sir, I fully agree with the hon. Gentlemen opposite, that if party considerations could influence her Majesty's Government, it would be a good party move on our part to concur in any measure, to agree to any proposition, which would be likely to con ciliate for us the support of the Irish Members. If, I say, we could be influenced by party considerations, the expenditure of 6,000,000 l. or 7,000,000 l. might be a matter of perfect indifference to us; and if the state of our finances were, in short, a matter of utter indifference to us, we might, perhaps, become makers of Irish railways, and expend 7,000,000 l. or 8,000,000 l. in that way, with a view to conciliate the valuable support of the Members for Ireland. Not being, how ever, actuated by party views, we cannot act with such considerations; but still, if I really did believe that an undertaking by the Government to make 540 miles of railway in Ireland would be a substantial and permanent benefit to that country, I do think all my scruples on the subject would be removed. But the question is, would such a course, on the part of the Government, be an advantage to Ireland? Now, Sir, I think that it would not, and that it is best for the interests of Ireland that Irish gentlemen should act in reference to such objects, precisely as we in this country have done; that is, that they should undertake speculations of this kind themselves—if, indeed, they believed that profit would result from them. My opinion, Sir, is that what the hon. Gentle men opposite ask, would, if given, prove a fatal gift; and I say this, because I am looking at what took place in the Irish Parliament, and the result of the grants which they made. I know that grants of public money were given for the construction of your. Grand Canal, your
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Royal Canal, and your Laggan and Tyrone Navigation, and what was the result? Why, that so far from these undertakings turning out profitable, the contrary was the case. [Mr. F. French: These were all private undertakings.] Why, Sir, I myself proposed a grant of 200,000 l. to enable the works on the Royal Canal to go on, and the Tyrone Navigation was carried on at the public expense. These grants, no doubt, were the result of exaggerated statements as to the existence of extensive and valuable coal and other mines—statements which had never been realised; and what I say is, that if, instead of Government interfering, the matter had been left to private speculation, no money would have been expended until it was proved, beyond all doubt, that not only such advantages did really exist, but that the undertakings would turn out profitable, Sir, my belief is, that an undertaking to construct an extensive system of railways in Ireland would not pay the expense, but, even if it did, what would be the consequence? Why, you would bring together an immense mass of labourers, by the incentive of the advantage to arise from undue exertion; but when the works were finished, and these labourers could find no employment, was it not probable that the evils of Ireland, instead of being mitigated, would be increased? The hon. Member for Roscommon said, that in 1839 I opposed a proposition brought forward by the noble Lord opposite, and I admit that I did so. Sir, what I say is this, that if railways in Ire land can be accomplished with profit, their construction ought to be undertaken upon the principle the railways in this country were undertaken; but if they cannot, then I think they ought not to be undertaken at all, and certainly I greatly doubt the policy of making grants of public money for such objects, even in Ireland. Let us look at the manner in which these undertakings have been carried out in England? Why, will the gentlemen of Ireland not do as was done in this country? Why will they not determine on constructing one line of rail way in the first instance, say from Dublin to Cork or Limerick? The Government are perfectly willing to give them all the advantages of Government superintendence. They can have plans and surveys for their line, and undoubtedly the country is peculiarly favourable—possesses great geological facilities for the formation of a

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railway. But, I ask, are you (the Irish Members) willing that land should be taken for the purposes of railways in Ire land on a different principle from that acted on in England? Are you willing that, instead of insisting on your own valuation, land for these purposes should be taken on the principal adopted in Russia and Prussia? If you are not willing to do this, all I can say is, that even if Government were to accede to your wishes, we should have great difficulty in forcing any bill through Parliament, great difficulty in forcing Irish proprietors to' accept, say 25 l. an acre for their land. If, however, Irish gentlemen are of opinion that their own estimates of the value of land should not be applicable to rail ways, and are ready to accept the sum which might be determined on by Government commissioners, no doubt that would afford great facilities, as well as prove that they had profited by experience. They might also obtain such powers as would enable them to avoid the evils and embarrassments against which English rail way companies have had to contend. But notwithstanding all this, I cannot act on the supposition that the people of Ireland are unable of themselves to undertake the construction of railways, if they make up their mind to for get party divisions and animosities, and apply themselves to such an object in right down earnest. The hon. Gentlemen opposite say they are not able; but did not their speeches show the contrary— that the internal condition of Ireland was prospering, and that both the navigation and agriculture of that country were in creasing by means of the national energies. Sir, if this be the case, and I have no doubt it is, why ask the Government for assistance? or why should not Ireland, like England, rely on her own native energies for improvements of this kind? I believe her own energies are fully equal to the accomplishment of railway under takings; but, if not, why does not Ireland exhibit such a state of peace and tranquillity—such an absence of agitation and disturbance—as will show that capital may be safely vested in that country? If peaceable and tranquil, there could be no doubt that English capital, for which it was now so difficult to find profitable employment, would flow into Ireland. But what is the account given with respect to the Dublin and Kingstown Railway
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That is the result of private undertaking, and it shows that there is no ground for the supposition that the people of Ireland are not competent to engage in such speculations. [The right hon. Baronet read a passage from the report of the Railway Commissioners to show that this railway had been successfully managed, and that the persons engaged in it had made many improvements, and displayed a degree of ingenuity highly creditable to Irish talent.] Sir, I recollect that Lord Morpeth proposed a line of railway from Dublin to Cork, to be executed by a grant from Government, and that his proposal met with strenuous opposition from Irish Members. They said it was not fair to select a single line, that it would be better to do nothing unless three were determined on, and that a sum of 2,300,000 l. should be expended, not on the completion of one, but on the commencement of three lines. It was said that the north and west would complain that the south had been unduly favoured. Now, Sir, I don't despair, taking advantage of the errors which we have committed, having the benefit of Government superintendence—having a new arrangement with the proprietors of land, and having the facilities of public instead of the expense of private legislation—I do not, I say, despair of seeing railway undertakings in Ireland with these advantages, and aided by Irish and English capital, conducted to a useful, if not a profitable and remunerating result. Sir, I deny that the Government are disposed to show any indifference on the subject; but I believe that their aid would be ill-timed, and that their interference would be an impediment instead of an advantage.
The Speakersuggested that the formal objection to the motion might be got over by omitting all that part of the motion by which it was proposed to move that the House resolve itself into a committee of the whole House.
Sir Robert Peelsaid, it would be a very dangerous precedent to facilitate the motion by varying the terms. The House of Commons was a very liberal body, and only too apt to involve the Crown in expense. He should himself have a great objection to facilitate the motion by acceding to any alteration in the terms.
Mr. Wakleysaid, there were two questions to be considered, first, whether the proposed railways would in themselves be useful; and secondly, whether public

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money ought to be advanced. England was intersected in every direction by railways. Had Government lent any assistance towards the construction of those railways? He could not see why, in such a country as Ireland, similar advantages might not be derived from such works as in England, by the application of the surplus funds of the country. Let Ireland be tranquilised, and he would venture to say capital in abundance would flow into the country. It was in the power of the right hon. Baronet to make Ireland happy. It was only necessary to act towards her with justice. Let the two countries be placed on the same footing, and the same happy state of things that existed in Eng land would be quickly established in Ire land likewise.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that before the motion was withdrawn, he was anxious to say two or three words on the motion itself, and on others of a similar nature. He did not object to the declaration of the Ministers of the Crown, that railways ought not to be constructed at the public expense, and ho did not think that Government ought to be pressed to do so, even if the forms of the House would permit such a course. But he did not mean to say that it would be perfectly fair to say that Government might not at some future time undertake, by a public grant, to contribute towards the construction of railways in Ireland. He thought there were sufficient grounds at the time to justify Lord Morpeth in bringing forward his motion on this subject. It might not be proper at the present time to do so, but it did not follow that such a coarse might not be perfectly expedient at some future time. It was easier, however, at all times for a Member bringing forward a case to show reasons why the House of Commons should be generous, than it was for a Minister of the Crown to show reasons why any particular grant ought not to be made. Ministers had to consider, net merely separate eases, but the whole question as to bow the public purse might best be applied for the general benefit of the country. On that account, he thought the House of Commons should show more disinclination than it bad done of late years to entertain individual applications for an expenditure of public money. The argument told, not only against the pre sent motion, but against others which had at no very distant period been submitted
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to the consideration of the House of Commons. He would only refer to a motion that had been brought forward in these terms:—
"That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into consideration the deficiency which exists in' the number of places of worship belonging to the Established Church, when compared with the increased and increasing population of the country, the inadequate provision therein for the accommodation of the poorer classes in large towns, and the insufficient endowment thereof in other places, as such facts have been severally set forth in the reports of the late Ecclesiastical Commissioners; to assure her Majesty that this House is deeply impressed with a just sense of the many blessings which this country, by the favour of Divine Providence, has long enjoyed, and with the conviction that the religious and moral habits of the people are the most sure and firm foundation of national prosperity; to state to her Majesty the opinion of this House, that no altered distribution of the revenues of the Established Church could remove the existing and augmenting evil arising from the notorious fact, that an addition of more than six million souls has been made to the population of England and Wales since the commencement of the present century, and that the rate of this increase is rapidly progressive; that the grants made by the wisdom of Parliament, on the recommendation of the Crown, in 1818 and 1824, have been inadequate to supply the national wants; and that, though private and local liberality has been largely manifested in aid of particular districts, the greatest wants exist where there are the least means to meet and relieve them; to assure her Majesty that this House, feeling that God has intrusted to this nation unexampled resources, is satisfied that it is the duty of the Government to employ an adequate portion of the wealth of the nation to relieve the spiritual destitution of large masses of the people, by whose labour that wealth has been enlarged; and humbly to represent to her Majesty that this House Will cheerfully make good such measures as her Majesty may be pleased to recommend, in order to provide for her people in England and Wales further and full means of religious worship and instruction in the Established Church."
This motion was negatived only by a majority of 163 against 149. Yet, if carried, it must hate led to a great in creased expenditure, and to an increase of the taxes for the purpose of Carrying out the objects of this single motion. He was glad that a line had been taken that night to discourage such applications. By adhering to a principle of just economy, they would most effectually prevent

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the necessity of increasing the burdens on the people.
Mr. Powellsaid, that the hon. Member for Finsbury, when he talked of the surplus funds of Ireland, ought to remember that the owners of Irish property did not reside in the country, but for the most part spent their revenues in England.
Motion withdrawn.

LAW OF COPYRIGHT.
Viscount Mahonsaid, that in asking for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law of copyright, it was not his intention to raise a discussion. The subject had been frequently before the House, and he would, therefore, only state in a very few words the nature of the alterations which it was his intention to propose. Sergeant Talfourd proposed to extend the protection of copyright to sixty years. It was his (Lord Mahon's) intention to reduce the period to twenty-five years, and he would introduce a clause to prevent the suppression of valuable works by the representatives of a deceased author, by giving the power to a committee of the Privy Council to interfere to prevent such a suppression.
Mr. Wakleysaid, he should not oppose the present motion of the noble Lord. It had not, however, been proved that an extension of twenty-five years might not
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be just as objectionable as an extension of sixty years. He hoped the noble Lord would be prepared to show some good reason why the author of a book was entitled to more protection than the author of a new invention, and if sufficient reason for such a preference could not be shown, he hoped the noble Lord would be unsuccessful in his attempt.
Mr. Jervissaid, he hoped the noble Lord would not proceed farther with his bill till after Easter.
Lord Mahonwould not pledge himself so far, but he would give sufficient notice of the next stage.
Leave given.

INTERNAL NAVIGATION IN IRELAND.
Lord Eliotmoved for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act 1 and 2 Will. 4th., empowering landed proprietors in Ireland to sink, embank, and remove obstructions in rivers. There was a general bill in preparation, but the details would occupy a considerable time, and it had therefore been thought proper to introduce a bill to provide a remedy for some particular defects that required correction.
Leave given. Bill brought in, and read a first time.
House adjourned.

Preamble
MINUTES] Bills. Public.—la Apprentices Regulation; Van Diemen's Land. Private.—* Ludlow Corporation and Charity Estate.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Strafford, form Ballykelly, and other places, Lord Campbell, from Congregations of Dromore, and other places, the Earl of Ennis-killen, from Congregations of Enniskillen, and other places, and Lord Brougham, from Hillsborough, for Legalizing certain Marriages by Presbyterian Clergymen; one of the Petitions asking for a General System of Registration of Births, Marriages, and Deaths.—By the Earl of Enniskillen, from Templecarn, and other places, for the Encouragement of Schools in connection with the Church Education Society (Ireland).—By the Earl of Minto, from Hawick, and Tewkesbury, and Lord Brougham, from South Shields, Pontefract, and Newport, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws.—From Saffron Walden, against the proposed Scale of Duties on Corn.
Adjourned.