Sitting of 29 June 1842

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public.—1°. 2° Justices Jurisdiction.
Private.— 2°Cambuslang and Muirkirk Roads. (No. 2); Duke of Cleveland's Estate.
Reported—Toxteth Park Paving and Sewerage; Leeds Burial Ground. 3°and passed:—Blackburn and Chorley Road.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. From Hoxne, for the Rating of the Owners of small Tenements— By Mr. Brotherton, from Simpson, Rostron, and Co. and by Mr. Godson, from North Staffordshire, against the Mines and Collieries Bill.—By Mr. Plumptre, from Manchester and Denby, for Inquiry into the Maynooth System of Education.—By Mr. Colville, from Ashbourne, against any further Grant to Maynooth.—By Colonel Rushbrooke, from Sudbury, against the Sudbury Disfranchisement Bill.—By Mr. S. Crawford, from West Riding of Yorkshire, to substitute Affirmations for Oaths,—By Mr. Hume, from the Southern District of Finsbury, for Redemption of Metropolitan Tolls.—By Mr. Shaw, from Clonmeen, against the National System of Education (Ireland).—By Mr. Gregory, from Subscribers to Arklow Dispensary, against Placing the Medical Charities of Ireland under the Poor-law Commissioners.—By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Holmfirth, complaining of Distress and of the recent measures of Legislation.

SYRIA—OMAR PACHA.
Dr. Bowringsaid, he rose to put the questions to the right hon. Baronet of which he had given notice, relative to the state of Syria, and the performance of promises made by the Porte to the British Government. The right hon. Baronet was probably aware that great anxiety prevailed as to the present state of the- population of that country, and he must also be aware of the promises held out to that population by the Sultan, and he should like to know how far they had been fulfilled? It appeared that Omar Pacha, an individual who was once a Christian, but had become a Mussulman, had been armed with the utmost authority in the district of Mount Lebanon, greatly to the dissatisfaction of the Christian population. A strong representation had, he understood, been made as to the great uneasiness which that nomi-

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nation had caused, and that representation, he hoped, had been attended with the effect of causing the removal of the obnoxious individual, as the right hon. Baronet on a former occasion trusted that it would. It appeared also that a number of Albanians had been again introduced into the interior of Syria, notwithstanding the assurance given by the Turkish government that they would be employed only on the coasts. It could not be forgotten that these irregular hordes had committed frightful excesses when they were employed on the last occasion, and had spread through the whole country the utmost terror and alarm. Of this the British Government were well aware, and had made a representation to the Porte, and the answer was, that those troops would be withdrawn from the inland districts, and would only be employed on the coast and in garrison. But these irregular hordes would be useless in garrison. He feared very much that the promises made at Constantinople had not been fulfilled; and he begged leave to ask whether Omar Pacha had been removed from Mount Lebanon, and whether the Albanian troops were withdrawn from that district and stationed on the coast?
Sir R. Peelapprehended the object of the interference of this country and its allies in the affairs of Syria was to restore the dominion of Turkey over that portion of its territory on the eastern shores of the Levant, and to place the Ottoman government in the position of an independent power. Now, such being the object, he did not think that a British Minister was called on to interfere with respect to the affairs of Lebanon. By such interference they would, probably, be open to the censure of undertaking too much. For his own part, he should be excessively sorry to interfere with the sultan's government, and he, as a British Minister, declined any responsibility as to what might be done by that government. At the same time, with reference to every thing that formed a bonâ fide part of the sultan's engagements, the British Government would use all its influence to have them carried into effect. He had the satisfaction to say that the five powers were acting unitedly, and with the same views, respecting the independence of Turkey. They were all of opinion that the best policy for Turkey herself to adopt was to administer the affairs of Syria with a lenient and indulgent hand. The five
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powers took precisely the same views as to the course of policy which the Porte ought to pursue, and they were at present tendering their advice to the Turkish government in the most perfect harmony. He remained of the same opinion with respect to that policy. As to Omar Pacha, he could not abandon the hope that some arrangement with respect to the appointment of a governor of Lebanon would be made more satisfactory to all parties. As to the other question, he had reason to believe that the assurances which had been given that the Albanian troops would be employed on the coast, and not in the interior, would be fulfilled. In his opinion the Turkish government would best consult its own interest by refraining from the employment of those troops altogether. He confidently hoped that the expectation entertained by the English Government would be fully realized. He had thus answered the questions of the hon. Member; but he entreated the House to bear in mind the general principle on which this Government acted with respect to foreign powers. The Government of this country was not answerable for the acts of other governments, and of course, could not be deemed responsible for any acts of the Turkish government in the management of its internal affairs. The hon. Member, with all his observation and experience, ought to be aware of this. The English Government would do the utmost they could to insure confidence and to obtain the fulfilment of all engagements positively entered into with them; but they could not answer for the acts of the government of Turkey, or of any other government, in the administration of its own internal affairs.

JUSTICES AT SESSIONS—SCARCITY OF SILVER COIN.
Sir J. Grahamsaid, the House would recollect that a bill was passed which had been sent down from the other House for the purpose of limiting the jurisdiction of magistrates at quarter sessions. Now, it was of the utmost importance that the commission for giving the Royal Assent to this and certain other bills should be signed immediately. This bill had been inserted in this commission about to be issued for giving the Royal Assent to a variety of bills, and could not now be excluded from it. The commission would probably be signed in forty-eight hours. Now, it so happened that

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the quarter sessions were sitting at this moment throughout England and Wales; and therefore it was desirable that this bill should not take effect until after those sessions had terminated. If this course were not adopted, important convictions might take place at the sessions, and questions of law might arise as to the legality of those convictions, if this bill by receiving the Royal Assent, and thus altering the magistrates' jurisdiction, came into immediate operation. To meet this difficulty a bill had been introduced, providing that the Justices' Jurisdiction Bill should not take effect till the 15th of July, after the usual time for holding the quarter sessions had expired. He proposed, therefore, that they should on this occasion dispense with the standing Orders, and that the bill should be advanced so many stages as would enable them in the course of to-morrow to return it to the other House of Parliament. He proposed that the bill should be now read a first time, and that it should also be advanced another stage.
Lord J. Russellwas not satisfied with the explanation given by the right hon. Baronet. He saw no reason for passing the former bill in such a hurry. Great fault had been found with the late Administration for errors of legislation, but it appeared that their successors were not entirely infallible. It seemed to him, that in this case great neglect must have existed somewhere, and he could not avoid adverting to the fact, as the House must recollect that great severity of criticism was exercised by hon. Members opposite in the course of last Session when similar neglect was charged upon the then Government. He did not, however, mean to oppose the motion. The measure certainly appeared to him to be necessary, and he could only hope that such an occurrence would not again happen.
Sir J. Grahamgave the noble Lord joy of the opportunity which he had afforded him for the expression of some of those feelings which he had been so much in the habit of indulging since his retirement from office. He did not claim any exemption from official infirmity, and he was glad that the resentment of the noble Lord would not lead him to interrupt the passing of a measure, the necessity of which was obvious.
Bill read a first time.
On the motion that it be read a second time,
Mr. T. Duncombesaid, although they had been told long ago that the present Administration never stumbled over stones or fell into puddles, yet he conceived that many instances might be adduced in which they were not more vigilant than their predecessors. He, however, rose for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to something more important than even the hasty legislation in question. He had that morning received a letter containing a notice which had been issued by the board of guardians of the city of Norwich, which was well worthy of observation. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Master of the Mint, had stated, within a few days, that they doubted whether there was any scarcity of silver in fact. Now, what occurred on Monday last at Norwich? A notice, which he should presently read, was issued (of the legality of which he would say nothing, except that it was entirely illegal) which proved not only the greatness of the distress that prevailed there, but showed the immense inconvenience that was experienced in consequence of the state of the silver currency. The notice ran thus:—
"Notice is hereby given, that, in consequence of the great scarcity of silver and copper coins, the guardians of the poor of this city have been compelled to issue tickets of 1s. and 1s. 6d. each, in payment of relief granted to poor persons. Any tradesman or other person advancing money or goods, or both, upon such tickets, may receive the full value thereof, on presenting them at their office in Bridge-street, in amounts of not less than 10 s.
"J. BECKWITH,
"Governor of the Workhouse."
Now, what was the effect of this? The poor were relieved by one shilling and eighteen-penny tickets issued by the guardians, and the guardians issued a notice that they would not receive their own tickets back unless they came before them in amounts of more than 10 s., thus enabling the guardians, in point of fact, to give the tradesman a light half-sovereign. Now, if this system were permitted to one set of guardians, what was to prevent others from following the example? In that case, the country was likely to be inundated by a small paper currency of one shilling and eighteen-penny notes. Surely this was a state of things well worthy the attention of her Majesty's

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Ministers. No one could deny that it proved the great scarcity of silver. When he looked to the state of the poor in Norwich, he found that the poor-rates had, for a considerable time, been greatly on the advance. The cases of out-door claimants were increasing every day, and the workhouse was quite full, though the city had been mulcted to the amount of 2,000 l. monthly for poor-rates only, and yet distress and destitution were daily on the increase. Now, he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take some effectual means to prevent the sort of issue of paper announced in the Norwich notice of the 27th of June, 1842. He begged leave to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether he was aware of the scarcity of silver alluded to? and if so, whether any means had been adopted to put an end to it?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerhad had no information whatever of the circumstance alluded to, until the hon. Member for Finsbury had made his statement. Though he had received communications from different quarters of the country as to the scarcity of silver, he had not received any intimation of the kind from Norwich. The Mint had been for some time at work in order to supply the deficiency of the silver coinage, and Government would take every measure in its power to remedy the inconvenience complained of.
Bill read a second time.

ELECTION PROCEEDINGS COMMITTEE.
Mr. Roebuckpresented the following report from the Election Proceedings Committee:—
"The select committee on Election Proceedings have to report, That on their first proceeding to the investigation of the matters referred to them by the House, the committee, after mature consideration of the best mode of carrying on the inquiry in which they were about to engage, unanimously resolved, ' That it was desirable, for the interest of the inquiry and all parties concerned, that no person should be present except the witness under examination."
"The committee have hitherto been able to carry out in practice the course which to them had seemed so necessary for the due discharge of the duty delegated to them; but the committee having now reason to believe that the right of Members of the House to be present at their proceedings will be insisted on, have unanimously resolved to direct their Chairman to call the attention of the House to the subject, in the hope that on this statement of their unanimous opinion, the course
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they have adopted will be sanctioned by the House."
Report read. The question "that the report do lie on the Table,"
Mr. Roebuck,on moving said, that he was commanded by the committee to state to the House the course they had pursued, the reasons which had induced them to take that course, and the grounds on which they considered it advisable that they should persist in it, in the hope that after such statement the House would, in the language of the report, "sanction the course which the committee had adopted." In the first place he should state, that in no case had there been on the part of the committee any dispute whatever of the privileges of the House or of its Members. The committee had on no occasion called in question the right of Members to attend their deliberations; but taking into consideration the nature of the investigation they were appointed to conduct, they had thought that they should best discharge the duty which they owed to the House, in consequence of the powers delegated to them, if, whilst they ever considered that their paramount object was to obtain the truth, they yet endeavoured to obtain that truth with the least possible pain to individuals. The committee felt that the House had delegated to them an inquiry for the general interest; that the House had no desire to pain individuals in making that inquiry, but that they only had for their object that the Legislature and the world at large should know the circumstances and extent of certain alleged practices, in order that, by legislative measures, they might put an end to such practices in future. But, whilst this was their end and aim, he repeated that he was sure the House had no other desire than that such an inquiry should be conducted on the broadest possible principles, without any personal pain being inflicted on individuals and without any consideration whatever to party views; and, believing such to be the feeling of the House, the committee had thought that they should be best discharging their duty if, when a witness was called, they were able to receive his evidence without giving him pain, and without the risk of that evidence being published to the public by piecemeal, or being bruited abroad in an unconnected, imperfect, and incomplete form-Now he had assumed that it was the purpose of the House not to inflict personal

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pain, and the consideration with the committee was, how could that object be best obtained? Was it best that the doors of the committee-room should be thrown open, and that, day by day, the evidence, with all its imperfections, should be given to the public in the newspapers? He knew it would be said that no Member of that House was likely to afford much information to the public prints, and he agreed that no one in the House would, with aforethought, communicate to anybody, out of doors, what ought not to be published. But yet they had no safeguard that, day by day, there would not be a publication of minutes of their proceedings; that some information would not escape, which it might have been as well for all parties to keep undiscovered. Now, the course the committee had taken to prevent this occurrence, he would state to the House precisely as circumstances had occurred. On the first day of the proceedings they had thought right to call before them the hon. Member for Harwich (Major Beresford). He would state to the House what had occurred, from the minutes made by their Clerk. ["No, no."] Well, then, he would state, from his own recollection, the substance of what had passed. ["No, no."] Very well; it being the opinion of the House that he should not refer to the proceedings, he would shape his communication accordingly. A difficulty having arisen, in consequence of an hon. Member having asked to be admitted—" [Order, order."] Why, in what was he out of order?
Mr. B. Escottrose to order. He apprehended that it was the rule of the House that no hon. Member had any right to state what had occurred before a committee, until that committee had made its report.
The Speakersaid, the view taken by the hon. Gentleman was accurate. The hon. and learned Member for Bath must not allude to proceedings before a committee until that committee had first made its report to the House.
Mr. Roebuckwould, in that case, assume what might have occurred before the committee. This was no trifling case, and he hoped they would interpose no difficulty to prevent the House arriving at a proper conclusion, but that they would rather give every support in their power to those to whom they had delegated a very invidious office. Now, let them suppose
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this difficulty to arise—let them suppose that they felt it necesssry to explain to an hon. Member the course they thought it desirable to pursue. They could not do that without staling that they sought to infringe a privilege of the House. They were very desirous not to fall into that difficulty, and it was with a view to guard themselves against it that they implored the House to sanction their request. Now if, in the performance of their duty, they should think fit to determine that their Chairman should request of any Member who entered the room to listen to the request of the committee, and not to press upon them the invidious office of examining a witness in his presence, and also that the Chairman should state that this was the unanimous request of the Committee (and here he begged to remark that, although the committee was composed of Members of both political parties, there had not, since they met, been one difference of opinion among them on any point whatever, and that upon the point now under discussion they were completely unanimous)—supposing, he said, that the committee, through their Chairman, should feel it necessary to make such a request, and that the Member to whom it was addressed should not think right to comply with it, what, he would ask, in the event of such an occurrence, was the committee to do? In every case which had already occurred, the Members to whom such a communication had been made had, of their own accord, politely yielded to the views of the committee, and retired from the room; but the committee had, nevertheless, good reason to know that they could not enforce any rule for exclusion which they might consider it necessary to lay down. Now, if any hon. Member thought exclusion a hardship, he might, possibly, soften his feelings on the matter a little, by stating the fact that the committee had already nearly got through their inquiry, and that, without having recourse to any expedient, they might, in conformity with the rules and orders of the House, almost altogether exclude Members from being present in their room. But the committee were anxious that their inquiry should be conducted properly and fairly to all parties, and that they should be free from irregular interruptions until their report was made to that House; and when that report was made they would challenge the most rigid

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criticism, and if any one found that, either in the inquiry itself, in the mode of conducting it, or in the character of the report, there was anything with which fault could be fairly found, he would submit himself to all the odium thereby incurred. But he did beg them to recollect that the House had placed confidence in the committee hitherto, and that, such confidence having been given to them, they ought to have the forbearance of individual Members. Nothing more than such forbearance was, he could assure the House, desired; and having said so much as to the report, he would now go one step further. There was on the paper a notice of motion to be made by the hon. Member for Oxford University. That motion went to provide for the admission to the committee-room of all the parties in any way implicated in the inquiry. Now, in point of fact, all parties interested would be admitted, each separately, to give his account of the transactions with which his name was mixed up. Each party would be informed of all that was said concerning him, and would be allowed to make his answer thereto, and all they (the committee) now asked of the House was, that the parties might be allowed to make that answer in the mode the least painful to themselves. He was quite sure, if it had happened to any Member of that House to be examined before the committee, that that Member would state without hesitation that there was nothing, either in the mode of his examination or in the character of the questions put, to which he could possibly take any objection. Therefore he would ask why was this exceeding desire shown to interrupt the deliberations of the committee? If they had not been harassed by such interruptions they would have finished their inquiries by next Saturday; as it was, they would not now bring their deliberations to a close until about next Wednesday. And what, let him ask, was the House to gain by such a proceeding? Every word said before the committee would be laid before the House, and surely, when they had that evidence before them, that would be time enough to make complaint. The committee felt that they should be very much crippled in the course of their inquiry if the House refused to sanction their regulations; and with regard to the admission of the public generally to the room, he would only fur-
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ther suggest that if they were admitted it would be almost a necessary consequence that witnesses should be submitted to a strict cross examination. That might be a very agreeable process for some witnesses as it might be very disagreeable to others, but this inquiry was, he apprehended, not one in which cross-examination could be properly taken. It was desired to find out the course pursued in certain individual cases as examples and elucidations of a general plan, and they had nothing to do with cross-examinations. Further, let him ask, would it not be extremely painful to witnesses to be subjected to such examination before such a tribunal sitting with open doors; to have garbled statements of their evidence go forth to the public; to have every little fact and circumstance that passed bruited about, often misunderstood, and of consequence often misrepresented? On the other hand, if these proceedings were conducted privately and quietly, they might hope that everything would pass off without pain or annoyance to individuals, and that there would be no one marked out for scorn to point its finger at. Therefore he felt most anxious that they should sanction the rules of the committee, and so far continue to repose confidence in their proper performance of their duties as to wait until they laid their report upon the Table, when he would give them leave to find fault, if they could, with as much sharpness as they pleased.
Major Beresfordsaid, that as the hon. Member for Bath had referred to him as a Member who had been examined before this committee, he had no hesitation in saying, that the demeanour of the Members of that committee, when he was examined before it, was everything that was kind, courteous, and gentlemanlike. But, at the same time, he must also say, that he most decidedly appealed against the constitution of that committee. He impugned the system on which it conducted its examination altogether, and he impugned also the secrecy with which those examinations were conducted. It was not because he wished to shrink from anything that he had done that he made this appeal, but, on the contrary, a public accusation having been made against him, he courted, and he felt that he had a right to demand, a public investigation. If he was accused of anything which was wrong, he desired that he should be tried on that accusation in consistence

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with the principles of the British Constitution—in consistence with the judicial modes of inquiry prevailing in the land; and not in darkness and secrecy, but in the face of day, and under the eyes of the whole world. This inquiry bore no resemblance to a judicial investigation, nor to any other investigation that he ever heard of, except the investigation by the Star Chamber, in the very apartment of which, by a singular coincidence, the committee held its meetings. It was an appropriate place for a committee, which sought to conduct its inquiries in secret, and seemed afraid of encountering the light of day. It was said, that no man was accused before this committee—that it was only a committee of inquiry; but he had referred back to the speeches made at the commencement of their proceedings in the early part of May, and he found the hon. Member for Bath saying—["Order."]
The Speaker:The hon. Member must not read from any report of words used by an hon. Member in a former debate.
Major Beresfordknew that the result of these proceedings entailed no pains or penalties on any Member, but what, let him ask, was to indemnify him for the pains or penalties of mental anxiety? How was he to be indemnified for being kept mentally brooding upon charges made against him before a secret tribunal, supported by witnesses whom he did not know, all of whom underwent secret examinations, whom he had no means of confounding by putting personal questions to, and whose statements might have an effect on the minds of the committee, which he had no opportunity of removing? What was to compensate him for the harassing anxieties he experienced in waiting for weeks for the judgment of this secret committee, who, of course, took their own time to make their report? He said, that to lay him under such anxieties was not only inflicting a hardship, but was laying him under pains and penalties in the shape of grievous mental punishment. He protested against such a system. It was contrary to every principle of our law. Every court of judicature in the land laid down, that the evidence of an accusing witness should be given before the party he accused. When a man was before a magistrate, the charge against him was openly made, openly heard, and openly decided. When he was in a court of criminal law, he was placed where he could see every witness,
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and could hear all that they said; he was allowed the use of counsel to aid his cause, and the publicity of the proceedings enabled the world to form their opinion of the fairness of his judges. Even a foreigner was entitled to these privileges—even an alien exercised these rights; and were they to deprive an elected Member of the Commons of England, or a candidate for the honour of such a position, of rights which they extended to all the world besides? He entered a solemn protest against any such treatment. If public inquiry would inflict personal pain, the pain inflicted of secrecy was tenfold greater, and as for the ridiculous pretence that any one would garble the reports—was it likely, he would ask, that any man would go forth from the committee and give garbled statements of his own evidence? The public feeling was against the inquiry, and he did hope that the House would not further oppose it by giving the committee such an uncontrolled authority as that they sought—a power the very demand for which made one fancy that we must be living in the times when Speaker Lenthall occupied the Chair, instead of in days when, according to a popular saying, every man was innocent until he was convicted.
Colonel Sibthorprose to move an amendment, and said, that though the hon. and learned Chairman stated that the committee was influenced by no desire of individual punishment, he would like to ask what must have been the feelings of an hon. Gentleman, formerly a Member of that House, when summoned to attend at their Bar? It was true, he had left the Bar with honour to himself, but how was he to know what oppressive results might follow from an exercise of the pleasure or the power of the House? Much had been said of the courtesy of the committee, but what was the notice which the hon. and learned Member for Bath had upon the paper of the day? There was no great courtesy in excluding Members of that House from the committee, as those Members had a perfect right, as Members, to know what the proceedings were which were taking place before the committee. He felt bound to protest against the committee, as usurping the rights and privileges of the House, and as attacking persons on the allegations of a few individuals who were, perhaps, influenced by feelings of disappointment. He felt hurt that the right hon Baronet at the head of the Go-

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vernment, who always stood up in his place to defend the liberty of the subject, of which that House ought to be the guardian—he felt hurt, he repeated, that the right hon. Baronet could for a moment be induced to assent to the appointment of this committee; but it was to be hoped that the right hon. Baronet, upon more cool and mature reflection, regretted the part he had taken in the transaction. The committee was one of a novel character and utterly unknown to a free country. For his own part, no secret tribunal of the kind should ever compel him to give evidence; and he hoped that the House, which was bound to protect the liberty of the subject, would never allow penalties to be inflicted by means of secret assassination. He would move that the order for appointing the select committee on Election Proceedings be discharged, and he would take the sense of the House on his motion.
Lord J. Russellwished to say a few words on the course which had been pursued by the hon. Member for Bath. He understood the hon. and learned Gentleman to say, that the committee were of opinion that they could best exercise the power intrusted to them by the House for the advantage of the public and of all others concerned in the inquiry, by continuing the course in the same manner as it had hitherto been conducted. He having every reason to repose confidence in the committee as selected by that House with due deliberation, and as it was well constituted, thought it highly advisable to attend to its suggestions. If, however, the hon. and learned Member for Bath had proposed the motion which appeared upon the paper, he could not give his assent to the hon. and learned Gentleman's proposition. Though Members of that House might exercise a sound discretion in not attending upon the committee, or being present at its proceedings, it would not be proper to interfere with the right they now had of being present, if they chose to insist upon that right. In general, he considered that it would be better if Members abstained from the exercise of any idle curiosity respecting the proceedings before the committee, and wailed until the report was made in the due and regular manner. As regarded such Members of the House as were personally interested in the inquiry, even though no charge was made against them,
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or though they ought not to be subjected to investigation by the committee, seeing that their characters might be affected by the result, though he still thought the more proper course ought to be to refrain from attending, yet if one or more Members of the House said that they felt it due to their character not only to hear the evidence, but also to observe the manner of those who gave it, he for one should not vote in favour of a motion by which such Members should be excluded. He was glad to hear it stated by the hon. Member for Bath that the labours of the committee had come nearly to a close, and as such was the case, though no regular motion to the effect had been made, it was stilt to be hoped, that in accordance with the wish of a committee in whose proceedings the House had every reason to repose confidence, hon. Members would exhibit a disposition to abstain from attendance. The committee was constituted of men belonging to various parties in the House, whose wish it was to act with justice towards all concerned in the inquiry. They must have deliberately weighed the course which it was best to pursue with respect to the inquiry which they were appointed to make; and if in their opinion it was better that hon. Members should abstain from attendance, he hoped that opinion would be acted on by the House, though he could not consent to any positive vote for the exclusion of Members. It was not to be wondered at that the hon. and gallant Colonel should wish to have the order discharged, as he was in the first instance opposed to the appointment of the committee, but the proper time of resistance had passed. He was glad to hear it stated that the committee had no purpose to pursue the inquiry with a view to individual punishment, for that was the only course by which any public benefit would result from the investigation.
Sir R. Peelcould assure the hon. and gallant Colonel that he had not assented unadvisedly or in haste to the motion for a committee, nor did he now repent of the vote which he had formerly given in favour of an inquiry, and he doubted very much whether it would tend to maintain the influence or authority of that House if it had decided to resist the motion for investigation. In his opinion it would be better, as respected the motion of the hon. and gallant Gentleman, that on this as well as

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on other occasions where a committee was proposed to be appointed the objections should be urged at the time when the proposition was made. It was true that objections were made in the first instance to the appointment of the committee, but not to the extent that they were now carried. He had supported the present committee on the same principle that he had supported other inquiries of a similar nature. After the inquiry before election committees in the cases of Yarmouth and Stafford, he had not thought the House was precluded because of the failures before these committees from instituting other inquiries. Neither had he thought that the failure of the investigation before the York and Liverpool election committees precluded the House from entering upon more general inquiries. At the same time, when on a former occasion he stated this to be his opinion, he also added, that it would not be fair to make such inquiries the means of selecting particular individuals and holding them up to public odium. It would have been impossible for him, knowing as he did what had been the practice of other parties on other occasions of a similar nature, to consent that the persons implicated in the present inquiry should be held up to public exposure. These were the opinions which he expressed when he consented to the appointment of the committee: these opinions he yet entertained, and he was glad to find that the committee was influenced by the same feeling—that they had no desire to act upon any personal vindictive feeling, but carried on the inquiry merely with a view to elicit such facts as would best enable them to legislate in devising a remedy. The committee acted most prudently and most wisely in directing the investigation to that end. He could not, however, conceive what would be the practical effect of the course proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Bath. It appeared to him that there was no other alternative than to leave the committee in possession of the power which it at present possessed, or to make it a secret tribunal altogether, and exclude Members as well as strangers. If hon. Members claimed the exercise of their right to be present on the ground of their being Members of the House, it should be left to their discretion; but he thought that it would be objectionable at this stage of the proceedings to place the committee upon a new footing. He
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thought it better on the whole to adhere to the general principle by which those tribunals were governed, and to leave to the committee its present power, recommending it to individual Members of the House to use their privilege with discretion, than by any particular sanction to vest a new power in the committee, and on those grounds he hoped the hon. and learned Gentleman would not press for. such a power. If there were no alternative, and that hon. Gentleman were determined to persist in their right as Members of that House, it would be less inconvenient to recognize it than to grant new power to the committee at this stage of the inquiry.
Sir R. Ingliswas of opinion that nothing could be more unseemly than for the House to enter into a discussion that the report do lie upon the Table, for where would be the practical result? As the right hon. Baronet had stated, it would leave the same discretion to the committee that it possessed; unless the hon. and learned Member for Bath made his appeal for something further, how could he justify the limiting of his motion to the question that the report do lie upon the Table? With respect to the exclusion of reporters, it should be remembered, that when reporters were excluded hon. Gentlemen gratuitously took up the office, and said they would not be bound by any decision of the committee, but would exercise their memory, and convey the intelligence through the ordinary channels of information. The hon. and learned Gentleman was much too charitable then in his opinions, when he seemed to think that hon. Members would forbear to exercise their right to be present. His proposition with respect to the committee was that all persons should possess the right of attending, as in any court of justice. The whole question resolved itself into this —was the committee a court of justice? Election committees were admitted by all to be courts of justice. That was a point which no person denied. They had the power to compel witnesses to attend, and to insist upon the production of papers; and this was a power vested in them, not by the House of Commons alone, but by the whole of the Legislature; and if the present committee assimilated to a court of justice, accused parties had a right to be present, and to witness the proceedings which took place.

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The hon. Member for Bath assumed a different tone in the present debate from that which characterized his speech on a former occasion. The hon. and learned Member had said, that this was not a committee formed for the purpose of preferring accusations, but had not the hon. and learned Member on a former occasion said,—
"I charge the right hon. Baronet the Member for Nottingham with such transactions—I charge the hon. Member for Harwich with such transactions—I charge the hon. Member for Penryn with such transactions?"
He called the attention of the House to the word "charge." When a Member of that House said he would "fix and crucify before the people," any person guilty of such proceedings, he begged to ask if that was not making a charge? If that were so, then he contended that individuals under such cir. cumstances were entitled, by the principles of the law of England, to know who their accusers might be, to know who were the witnesses brought forward against them, and to be present at the examination of such witnesses. He went further, and said that, being themselves propably unprofessional men, pleading before a tribunal the Chairman of which was a member of the honourable and learned profession of the law, they had a right to be assisted by professional advocates. It was vain to refer to such tribunals as a grand jury or a military court of inquiry, which was not at all analogous to the present committee. What he wished the House to observe was this, that in the present instance they had only the assertion of the hon. Member himself, on which these proceedings were founded. The hon. Member summoned certain individuals in that House to plead to his charge. Some of them chose to answer, some chose to stand mute; but in either case the hon. and learned Member compelled them, or if he objected to that expression, the House itself compelled them, to stand their trial. He said, therefore, that the hon. Member having induced the House to consent to the institution of such a tribunal, was, himself, bound, in common justice, to give to the parties, if they desired it, the benefit of that concession which would not be withheld from them in any other court in the kingdom—namely, that of being present when their accuser came forward, and hearing what his statement was, in order
768
that they might confront the witness who alleged anything against them with another witness whom they might call on their own part, and, generally, of being defended by all those sanctions of law with which the tribunals of England sheltered any other accused person, in order that this court might not be made the only one in England in which a person was deprived of all those means of proving his innocence, and resisting a sentence of condemnation, which would be granted to him in any other court in England.
Mr. Shawsaid, the object of the hon. and learned Member for Bath's proposition to the House was, that they should sanction the manner in which the committee thought fit to conduct their proceedings, in silence and mystery. That was what had induced him to rise on this occasion, for, if even silence on his part should be considered as an assent to that proposition, he was not prepared to remain silent. So long as the committee appointed by the House exercised their own discretion, without any interference from the House, he should not have thought it necessary to protest against their proceedings; but if they asked for the sanction of the House to them, then it became necessary for every Member to say whether he was willing or not to afford his sanction. He was not willing to do so; he had not heard a single argument for the secresy of their proceedings. The hon. and learned Member for Bath said the object of the committee was to elicit truth. He said that ought to be its object, but the principles of English jurisprudence must be very different from the notions he had always entertained of them if it were a principle that truth was to be elicited by means of secresy and shrouding themselves in darkness. It was not enough that the accused person should have the proceedings of the committee communicated to him as a favour by the Chairman, or a Member of the committee; he ought to know who were the persons preferring and supporting the accusations against him, in what manner they gave their evidence, and, above all, he ought to have the opportunity of cross-examining them, and conducting his defence in the manner due to himself; he thought publicity was, of all other things, the best guardian of justice. He believed that no positive enactment or law would so satisfactorily secure the due administration of justice as

769
its being open to the public. No doubt the custom had its inconvenience,—every court of justice felt more or less inconvenience in its proceedings from this regulation,—but no man who understood the spirit of our law could for a moment doubt that the balance of advantage was in favour of publicity.
Mr. Roebuck,after the expression of opinion from the noble Lord and from the right hon. Baronet, and after the feeling expressed generally by the House, was sure he spoke the feeling of the committee when he said that they would not press the point of exclusion further. They would leave it to individual discretion, to the good taste and feeling of Members. They thought that by doing so they would best discharge their duty to the House in the present state of the question.
Mr. B. Escottasked if the hon. and learned Member could state any tribunal in which English justice was administered where persons were accused and tried in their absence? It had been said that this was not an accusatory proceeding at all. Was he to be told that, after what he had heard in that House, that the right hon. Baronet the present Member for Nottingham, that Sir G. Larpent, who was a candidate at the late election for Nottingham, that his hon. Friend the Member for Bridport, that the hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for Bridport, and others, were accused of nothing? If they were accused of nothing, what was this committee to inquire into? It was stated that the committee sat to purify the House. If it sat to purify the House, it sat to purify it from something wrong, from something corrupt. Was that not an accusation? But he would not refer to the debate in which the hon. and learned Member for Bath spoke so strongly on this subject, he would refer to the order of the House appointing the committee. In that order occurred the expression "corrupt compromises." Was that no accusation? And if it were an accusation, he asked again, how could the proceedings be fairly conducted unless the parties charged were present to hear the charges brought against them? At the commencement of this proceeding he had thought the hon. and learned Gentleman in the right. If the question had come to a vote, he was prepared to say that he would have voted for this committee. He had not objected to the committee itself, though he did not approve of the questions which the hon,
770
and learned Member had put. His objections commenced at the point when the committee began to act contrary to the principles of law and right. These were the reasons for which he should vote against the hon. and learned Member.
The House divided on the question that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question:—Ayes, 177; Noes, 45: Majority, 132.

List of the AYES.

Acland, Sir T. D.

Fielden, J.

Acland, T. D.

Flower, Sir J.

Ainsworth, P.

Forster, M.

Bailey, J., jun.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Baird, W.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Baring, hon. W. B.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.

Barnard, E. G.

Gordon, Lord F.

Barron, Sir H. W.

Gore, M.

Bentinek, Lord G.

Goulburn, rt. hn. H.

Berkeley, hon. C.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Berkeley, hon. Capt,

Greenall, P.

Berkeley, hon. H. F.

Greenaway, C.

Bernal, R.

Greene, T.

Blackburne, J. I.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Bowes, J.

Guest, Sir J.

Bramston, T. W.

Hamilton, W. J,

Broadley, H.

Hampden, R.

Brotherton, J.

Hanmer, Sir J.

Browne, hon. W.

Heathcoat, J.

Bryan, G.

Heneage, E.

Busfeild, W.

Hepburn, Sir T. B.

Butler, hon. Col.

Hervey, Lord A.

Byng, rt. hon. G. S.

Hill, Lord M.

Cavendish, hon. C. C.

Hindley, C.

Chapman, A.

Hodgson, F.

Chapman, B.

Hodgson, R.

Childers, J. W.

Houldsworth, T.

Clements, Visct.

Howard, hn. C. W. G.

Clerk, Sir G.

Howard, Lord

Clive, E. B.

Howard, hn. E. G. G.

Cobden, R.

Howard, P. H.

Courtenay, Lord

oward, hon, H.

Craig, W. G.

Hume, J.

Crawford, W. S.

Hutt, W.

Cripps, W.

Irving, J.

Dalrymple, Capt.

James, Sir W. C.

Dickinson, F. H.

Jocelyn, Visct.

Divett, E.

Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Ker, D. S.

Duff, J.

Labouchere, rt. hn. H.

Dugdale, W. S.

Lambton, H.

Duncan, G.

Lascelles, hon; W. S.

Duncombe, T.

Layard, Capt.

Duncombe, hon. O.

Legh, G. C.

Dundas, D.

Lennox, Lord A.

East, J. B.

Liddell, hon. H. T.

Easthope, Sir J.

Lincoln, Earl of

Ebrington Visct.

Lindsay, H. H.

Egerton, Sir P.

Lowther, J. H.

Ellice, rt. hon. E.

Macaulay, rt. hn. T. B.

Ellice, E.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Eliot, Lord

Mackinnon, W. A.

Elphinstone, H.

Mc. Taggart, Sir J.

Ferguson, Col.

Marsland, H.

771

Martin, J.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Marton, G.

Sheppard, T.

Masterman, J.

Shirley, E. J.

Meynell, Capt.

Smith, rt. hon. R. V.

Miles, W.

Somers, J. P.

Milnes, R. M.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

Mitchell, T. A.

Stanley, Lord

Morris, D.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Murphy, F. S.

Stuart, Lord J.

Napier, Sir C.

Stuart, H.

Nicholl, rt. hon. J.

Stock, Mr. Serj.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Strutt, E.

O'Brien, J.

Sutton, hon. H. M.

O'Connell, D.

Thornley, T.

O'Connell, M. J.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

O'Connell, J.

Tufnell, H.

Ogle, S. C. H.

Turner, E.

Packe, C. W.

Vernon, G. H.

Palmer, R.

Vesey, hon. T.

Parker, J.

Vivian, hon. Capt.

Patten, J. W.

Walker, R.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Wall, C. B.

Pendarves, E. W. W.

Wallace, R.

Philips, G. R.

Wawn, J. T.

Plumridge, Capt.

White, H.

Plumptre, J. P.

Williams, W.

Ponsonby, hon. J. G.

Wodehouse, E.

Pringle, A.

Wood, C.

Protheroe, E.

Worsley, Lord

Pusey, P.

Wortley, hon. J. S.

Redington, T. N.

Yorke, hon. E. T.

Rolleston, Col.

Yorke, H. R.

Rundle, J.

Young, J.

Russell, Lord J.

TELLERS.

Seale, Sir J. H.

Hawes, B.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Roebuck, J. A.

List of the NOES.

Allix, J. P.

Hornby, J.

Antrobus, E

Hussey, T.

Archdall, Capt.

Ingestre, Visct.

Arkwright, G.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Bateson, Sir R.

M'Geachy, F. A.

Borthwick, P.

Manners, Lord J.

Broadwood, H.

Marsham, Visct.

Burrell, Sir C. M.

Neeld, J.

Colvile, C. R.

Neville, R.

Darby, G.

Northland, Visct.

Disraeli, B.

Pollington, Visct.

Douglas, J. D. S.

Pulsford, R.

Eaton, R. J.

Rushbrooke, Col.

Ferrand, W. B.

Russell, J. D. W.

Ffolliott, J.

Stewart, J

Forester, hon. G. C. W.

Taylor, T. E.

Fuller, A. E.

Trevor, hon. G. R.

Gladstone, T.

Tyrell, Sir J. T.

Glynne, Sir S. R.

Verner, Col.

Gore, W. O.

Williams, T. P.

Goring, C.

Wynn, Sir W. W.

Grimsditch, T.

TELLERS.

Grogan, E.

Escott, B.

Henley, J. W.

Sibthorp, Col.

MR. COCHRANE.—EVIDENCE GIVEN BY MEMBERS.
Mr. Roebuck Mr. Roebuck moved
"That Alexander Bailie Cochrane, Esq.,
772
one of the Members for Bridport, do attend before the select committee on Election Proceedings, and give evidence, on Monday next."
Mr. Bailie Cochraneregretted exceedingly that he should be again called on to address the House relative to the borough he represented; at the same time he could not apologize for trespassing on the time of the House, as the necessity did not arise from any fault of his. If the right hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, and if the Government generally had not sanctioned the proceedings of the hon. Member for Bath—if they bad not allowed this committee to be appointed, and be thought it to be the feeling of the House that it had been roost improperly appointed—he should not now be compelled to occupy the attention of the House. In the first instance, the questions which the hon. Member for Bath had asked in that House ought never to have been put, and he appealed to the Speaker to say whether they ought to have been answered? He repeated, that the position he was now obliged to occupy in that House, in replying to the motion of the hon. Member for Bath, arose not from any fault of his Own, butt from the fault of the House in originally granting this committee. He would remind the House of the circumstances of the case as related to himself. A petition had been presented to the House from Mr. Warburton, containing charges against him. He then made at the time a full statement of facts, and he took advantage of the present opportunity of declaring, that notwithstanding some contradictions which had appeared in the newspapers, every particular he then stated was perfectly true. He had answered all the charges against him, but at the same time he expressed a wish that the matter should be referred to this committee; not that he expected that he should ever be called before it. His reason for desiring the affair to be referred to the committee was, because he feared the special pleading of the hon. Member for Worcester would not be sufficient to clear Mr. Warburton, and therefore he was willing that Mr. Warburton should have an opportunity of appearing before the committee, and of refuting any charge which he might think was falsely made against him. He repeated, that he had not expected to be examined. He had no wish, like Mr.

773
Warburton, to become common informer with respect to the borough he represented. He did not think he was justified in laying before the House or the committee any circumstances of which he had cognizance respecting that borough; but there was a particular reason why he had not acceded to the request of the hon. Member for Bath to appear before the committee, and one which the House, when they were informed of it, would certainly pay attention to, and deem reasonable. It was one personally relating to himself. There had been indictments pending against him in Dorsetshire ever since he had taken his seat for the borough he now represented. It was not certain on what day these indictments would be brought forward; but he believed, that they would not be proceeded with. Now, he asked, how could he, situated as he was, appear before the committee to make statements which might by possibility inculpate himself, every Member of the committee having the power to send a written account of those statements down to Dorsetshire? He asked, was it just to compel him to make statements of this kind? He could not agree in thinking, that the bon. Member for Bath was conducting the proceedings of the committee in a very impartial manner. He now asked the hon. Member for Bath whether be had examined Mr. Warburton and his agent? No; the hon, Member kept these back to the last; so that be would have no opportunity of refuting- any charge made against him. He bad been ordered to attend to-day, and again asked whether it was not true that Mr. Warburton was not ordered to attend? Was it not the bon, Member's intention to examine him and his bon. Colleague previous to examining Mr. Warburton? [Mr. Roebuck: It was.] He again informed the House, that the particular ground on which he objected to appear before the committee, was, that there were indictments pending against him, and he thought the House would admit, that that was a just ground of objection. It might be possible, that in consequence of his statements before the committee being made known, the indictments would be pressed against him, and was it fair that the House should place him in such a situation. But, if this objection was not thought sufficient, there were other objections of a public character. There were circumstances of a most un-
774
paralleled nature connected with this committee. In the first place, it was not sworn, in the second, it was secret; in the third, the parties charged were not confronted with their accusers; and in the fourth, the accused had no opportunity of challenging the jury. These were circumstances unheard of in the annals of England. He was surprised, that the noble Lord, the Member for London, should join in these proceedings; for, on referring to a work written by that noble Lord a long time ago, he found a passage on civil liberty, of which he should take the liberty of reminding the noble Lord. The noble Lord enumerated several of the advantages enjoyed in England, and mentioned as a great security, more valuable perhaps than any other, that the trials took place in public, and the accused was brought face to face with his accuser before the country. If he were to go before the committee, how should he know what Mr. Warburton had already stated or might state hereafter? How should he know that he was not criminating himself in every word? He had now stated the reasons why he objected to attend before the committee, and having done so, he should leave the matter in the hands of the House. If the House decided that he was to attend this committee, he should bow to the decision of the House; not but that he was perfectly aware that, by not attending the committee, he should be advocating what he considered a right and great principle; but because he thought that, if he refused to obey the decisions of the House, he should be sacrificing a still greater principle—his duty to the House. Still, he would say this openly in the face of the House, and in spite of any consequences that might result to himself from the determination to which he had come, that he should firmly, but respectfully, decline to produce any documents, or to answer any single question which might in any shadow of a degree compromise, or tend to cast a slur on the character of any one person in the borough which he had the honour to represent. He would bow to the authority of the House in attending the committee, but he considered no command superior to a point of honour in a man's own breast, and no human authority could sanction the violation of the confidence which had been reposed in him.
Mr. Roebuckunderstood the hon. Mem-

775
ber to object to the course proposed to be taken in the investigation of the case of the borough he represented. The committee desired, as far as possible, to consult the convenience of Members of that House, and with this view had generally asked them to attend first; but as the hon. Member objected to this mode of proceeding, he might venture to undertake that Mr. Warburton should be examined, not only previous to him, but before his very face.
Mr. Mitchellwas understood to protest against the principle on which the inquiry was conducted. There were persons charged before the committee who were not Members of that House, and who had no opportunity of rebutting the allegations made against them. The first time they would hear of the serious charges against them would be only when the hon. Member for Bath brought up the report of the committee, and then they would have no opportunity of clearing themselves. For himself, he should be most happy, in obedience to the Order of the House, to state fully all that related to himself; but he would say nothing which might affect, either criminally or morally, another party.
Mr. Liddellsaid, that after the statement made by the hon. Member for Bridport, that there were certain indictments pending against him which might compromise his character and pocket, and that possibly the evidence he should be called on to give before the committee might have a tendency to criminate him, he did not think that the hon. Member ought in fairness to be called on to give evidence before the committee so long as those indictments were pending. Let them either be tried or abandoned, and then the hon. Member's evidence might be proceeded with before the committee. As an independent Member of the House he was anxious to see justice done to all parties, and he could not consent that any Member in the position of the hon. Member for Bridport should he called on to give evidence which might tend to criminate himself, and thereby induce parties to follow up the indictments. He should suggest that the hon. Member's attendance be dispensed with while the indictments were pending.
Sir R. Peelsaid, he certainly must have misunderstood the speech of the hon. Member for Bridport on a former occasion,
776
for he had been of opinion that the hon. Member had expressed his anxiety that he should have a full opportunity of repelling the reflection cast on him, and his hope that the case of Bridport would be referred to the committee. Of course, on being referred to the committee it became subject to the same principles as those by which the whole inquiry was conducted; and he could not help thinking, considering the very natural and honourable wish entertained by gentlemen conscious of their innocence, that the House should grant the committee of inquiry, that if he had opposed any obstacle, he should have been told that he allowed charges to be made and when inquiry was challenged he was the person who prevented it. The hon. Member for Bridport had desired that the case of that borough should be referred, like the cases of other boroughs, to the committee, and he did not understand that Mr. Warburton was to be examined and that the hon. Member was not to be examined. With respect to the position in which the hon. Gentleman stated he was placed, he thought that his objection to be examined on account of pending suits should be stated before the committee, for the House had decided, in. the case of Mr. Fleming, that that was the proper tribunal to take cognizance of the objection. But there was an important point to which he thought he ought to call the attention of the House, because it was exceedingly inconvenient to establish any new precedent without mature consideration. The point had not been alluded to by any other hon. Member, but on looking at the journals he was not aware that there was an instance of the House compelling the attendance of a Member before a committee to give evidence. There were instances of applications to the House, on the part of committees, in order that Members might be compelled to attend before them; but it seemed doubtful whether these applications had been complied with. As this then was an important constitutional question, it would be unwise in the House to make any peremptory Order without consideration; and he appealed to the high authority of the Chair to know what the Speaker considered to be the usage of the House of Commons with respect to Members attending committees.
The Speakersaid, that he had searched the Journals within the last two or three

777
days, and had not as yet discovered any instance where an order had been made on a Member of the House to give evidence before a select committee. He had found a case, where a committee of grievances reported that a Member had refused to attend them, and the House then resolved, that in all cases where Members refuse to attend select committees when required to do so, the committee should report the name of the Member to the House; but no further proceedings were taken in that case. In 1790, a case occurred which he thought it right to mention. A committee was about to be appointed on the slave-trade, and it was intimated to the House that one of its Members, Major-general Rooke, could give important information on that subject, and the House thereupon ordered, that it be an instruction to the said committee, that they should take the examination of Major-general Rooke if he should think fit to be so examined. In 1782 another case occurred. A Member of the House (Mr. Barwell) was examined before a committee appointed on the administration of justice in Bengal, but refused to give satisfactory answers to certain questions which the committee had put to him. The committee reported the facts to the House, and informed the House, that the committee were under the necessity to examine Mr. Barwell; and Mr. Barwell being in his place, got up and consented to attend the committee, and be examined, but in no case could he find that the House had made a peremptory order on a Member of the House to give evidence before a committee against his own determination.
Sir R. Peelthought, under these circumstances it would be desirable, before coming to a decision, for the House to take a little time to search into the precedents. Perhaps the hon. Member himself would relieve the House, by assenting to attend before the committee, from the necessity of making the immediate inquiry on this point, which might last as long as the investigation of the committee before whom he was summoned to attend.
Lord J. Mannerssaid, from what had now fallen from the Chair, he thought very grave doubts must arise in the minds of every hon. Member present as to whether the motion of the hon. and learned Member ought, with regard to the precedents, to be followed. The case of Sir
778
G. Rooke appeared to be a case in point. The House then decided that they had no power to compel Sir G. Rooke to be examined to anything he might object to. If, then, the hon. and learned Member had worded his motion with regard to that precedent, he apprehended that there would have been no objection to it. But as he merly moved that the hon. Member for Bridport attend this committee and give evidence without the qualifying clause he thought there would be no difficulty in the House to coming to a negative decision upon it.
Mr. O'Connellsaid, if he understood rightly, there was no precedent of the House sanctioning the refusal of a Member to attend a committee, and there was no precedent of the House compelling any Member to attend; but there was on the other hand, no precedent which should make them negative this motion. Some course, therefore, ought to be taken to leave this question at large without prejudice.
Mr. Smythesaid, that the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken, said there was no precedent for sanctioning and affirming the refusal of a Member to attend; but in one of the cases mentioned by the Chair, Mr. Barwell was summoned to attend the committee in relation to Indian affairs, and he had been connected with the rule of India during the Government of Mr. Warren Hastings there, and if upon such an occasion as that the House did not consider it sufficiently important to decide, he thought that on an occasion of so little importance as the Bridport election, which the. noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies said was not to be followed up by pains and penalties, they would not sanction this motion.
Lord J. Russellsaid, that if the House negatived this motion, it would imply that they had not the power to order the attendance of one of its Members. The precedents he had no doubt, were as had been stated by the Chair; but as there might be a doubt as to the power of the House if they thought fit to exercise it, if there was no precedent to make the order, he thought the House ought not to take any course without grave and serious consideration. He therefore should propose that if the hon. Gentleman was not ready to relieve the House of the difficulty by saying he was ready to be examined, the debate should be adjourned.
Lord Pollingtonsaid, that if the committee wished to summon before them a Peer of the other House, a special application must be made to that House, and that Peer would be ordered to attend if he thought fit. Now, he saw no reason why a Member of the House of Commons should be placed in a worse position than a Peer of Parliament.
Mr. Darbyshould not vote against the motion if it were pressed; but thought it better that the hon. and learned Member for Bath should withdraw his motion, and a committee be appointed to inquire into precedents. With respect to the proceedings of the committee, he certainly must object to the evidence being printed when their proceedings closed, for that evidence might effect the characters of persons who would have had no opportunity of examining or cross-examining witnesses to rebut the charges against them. Such persons would be placed in a position in which no one was ever placed in a court of justice. If that committee proceeded in a manner against which public feeling existed, instead of doing that which that House was determined to do—viz., expose bribery, they would have that feeling combined against them, and would be in a worse situation than they were in before.
Mr. R. Yorkewas perfectly satisfied that the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just spoken had misunderstood the question as between the committee and the House, it appeared to him, that in the speech of every hon. Member who had addressed the House the question had assumed a personal character as against the hon. and learned Member for Bath. That was his impression, and he thought that that was the impression that would go forth to the public with respect to this debate. He was glad to hear that such was not the case, but he rose to say that he fully identified himself with the part the hon. and learned Gentleman had taken in these proceedings, and he would state further with great humility to the hon. and learned Gentleman, that in all the proceedings he had ever witnessed he never saw a person more fully alive to the delicacy of the situation he had brought upon himself by moving for this committee, and more consistent and delicate towards every person connected with it, than the hon. and learned Member for Bath.
Debate adjourned to the following Monday.
On the motion of Sir R. Peel a select committee was appointed to search the journals for precedents in respect to any Member of the House being compelled by an order of the House to give evidence before the House on any committee appointed by the House.

DISFRANCHISEMENT OF SUDBURY.
The Sudbury Disfranchisement Bill was read a third time.
Mr. Blackstonepursuant to notice moved the following clauses:—In line 14, after the words "passing of this act,"
"Be held and considered as comprising within its limits the hundred of Babergh, in the county of Suffolk, and the hamlet of Balling-don-cum-Brundon, in the county of Essex, and that the right of voting for any burgesss or burgesses to serve in Parliament for the said borough of Sudbury be hereafter vested in those persons residing within the said hundred of Babergh, and the said hamlet of Balling-don-cum-Brundon, having the qualification required as electors for cities and boroughs under the act 2nd William 4th, c, 45." "And be it further enacted, that from and after the passing of this act, the following persons, whose names are hereinafter inserted, be disqualified from voting at all future elections for the borough of Sudbury, viz., John Francis Sykes Gorday, William Warner, Thomas Goody, James Bell Johnson, Francis Making, James Brown, Thomas Brown, Charles King, Richard Steed, William Jollady, Samuel Shelley, and Joseph Wheeler, jun."
The hon. Member in support of his motion contrasted the cases of Stafford and of East Retford with that of Sudbury, and contended that a sufficiently strong case against the latter borough had not been made out.
House counted out.
Adjourned.

MINUTES.
BILLS. Public— 2a 3a and passed:—Jurisdiction of Justices.
Private.—3a and passed:—Bromyard Roads; Stour-bridge Road.
Adjourned.