Sitting of 4 August 1842

Preamble
MINUTES.] BILLS. Public—1o 20 Boroughs Incorporation
2oInsolvent Debtors.
Committed—Exechequer Bills; Consolidated Fund.
Reported.— Court of Chancery Offices; Lunatic Asylums Ireland).
30 and passed:—slave Trade Suppression; Tobacco Regulations.
Private.—Reported.—Cauvin's Estate; Street's, Divorce.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Mr. Brotherton from the Corporation of Bristol against the County (Courts Bili.—By Sir R. Peel, from Newtown Crommelin, for Alteration to the present System of Education (Ireland).— From the Hailsham union, to rite the Clergy to provide Spiritual Instruction for Paupers,—From Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in favour of Medical Reform.—By Mr. Pringle, from Schoolmasters of Stirling, the ameliorating of their conditions.

HEALTHY OF TOWNS —BURIALS.
Mr. Mackinnonrose to move war leave to bring in a bill to promote the Health of Towns by preventing interments within their precincts. He said he should have been more pleased if the Government had taken the measure in hand, but as it had devolved on him as chairman of the committee, he would do his best in promoting the measure. In so doing, it was not his intention to enter into a long account of the practice of interments in former times, as this was well known by most Members of the House. He would only observe that the practice of burying in churches or in churchyards near the church had first began with the Emperor Constantine, and had not been in general practice until the eighth century. This custom had originated in superstition, the ignorance of those days making the mass believe that by being interred in or near the church they would escape purgatory; but he would ask was such a practice to continue at present? The hon. Gentleman said he would not enter into any details of the evidence adduced before the committee, or repeat any of the disgusting and offensive information brought before them by disinterested witnesses, who bore testimony of the abominations practised in the graveyards of great towns; all this would be known to the House and to the country by a perusal of the evidence given in the report on the improvement in the Health of Towns, but he could not pass over the evidence of the most distinguished practitioners in the country, of first men in medicine and surgery, who all agreed and received it as an axiom, that pestilential fevers and many other diseases arose at present from the interment of the dead in

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large towns, or within their precincts. He must also allude with unfeigned satisfaction to the conduct and evidence of the clergy. All that he had examined, from the highest prelate—from the Archbishop of Canterbury and Bishop of London to the humblest curate—all gave a willing evidence, and bore testimony against those evils, although the result might be some loss of fees to some of the parochial clergy. Having said this, he thought it advisable, without further preamble, to advert to the clauses of the bill that he was about to introduce, if leave were given by the House. But very considerable difficult arose in settling many points necessary to be arranged. He wished, in the first clause, to prohibit all interments under churches, or in large towns, and to remove them to say one mile or more from the town. Here a difficulty arose, in what the boundaries of the town should be defined, and he could suggest no other besides that of taking the boundaries to be co-extensive with the lighting and paving of each place. The next point was to allow all cemeteries in the vicinity of towns which had been formed within the last ten years, to continue to be used as at present, and not to come under the operation of this act. The next clause would be to allow the present graveyards in towns to be sown with grass, and not to be disturbed more than six inches below the surface for the next four years; after that time to be planted with trees, so that they might serve as walks for the inhabitants, as places where the descendants could witness the gravestones of their fathers—in short, as places which, by affording air and ventilation, might serve to promote the health and comfort of the people in the same proportion as they at present tended to disgust and to pollute, by noisome gases, the atmosphere in the neighbourhood. He must state that it was impossible to carry this act into operation, unless some authority or power in every parish was established to make arrangements. This authority might be vested in the incumbent vicar or resident Minister, and the two churchwardens, who should have power under this act to raise a fund to cover the necessary expenses that must be incurred; these expenses were as wallow, and could not be passed over; it would be necessary either to purchase land, or to make a contract with some cemetery for the use of the parish;
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another expense would be the removal of the paupers to their last home, and the last would be the remuneration for loss of fees or of salary to the clergy, and sextons, and others; all this expense, he thought, might be covered by a penny rate, levied in addition to a poor-rate, once in two or three years, for it must not be forgotten by hon. Members that in proportion as the population of a parish was great, in the same proportion the expenses would be higher; but then a much larger sum would be raised by a penny rate on the inhabitants of the parish. He would also permit an union of those perishes in like manner as we had unions of the parishes for the support of the poor. At these unions, the minister of each parish, and the churchwardens could vote, and the votes of the majority would decide any question; he would style these parish authorities committees of health for the parish. Besides these local authorities, he thought it advisable, that a central board of health should be formed in London, or a power given to the diocesan, for every parish or union to appeal to in cases of doubt or dispute; but he was inclined to prefer a board of health named by the Government, which board could also superintend the drainage and ventilation in large towns. In the Buildings Bill, which had been printed this Session, the want of such a board was apparent; it might regulate the drainage of houses about to be erected, and also prevent the injury done to the community by the want of ventilation, which arose when houses were built back to back in alleys, or in the poorer parts of the metropolis or large towns. He hoped that Great Britain the most civilized, the most wealthy, and most moral community in the universe, would not, in the nineteenth century, be the most backward in adopting that change for the benefit of the people that was loudly and would be still more fervently demanded by public opinion. A feeling existed in the community that could not be withstood, that the mass of the people were injured by the present mode of interment —that we ought to attend to their welfare. The hon. Gentleman concluded by expressing a hope that the churches should no longer be desecrated, the health of the living injured, or the remains of the dead disturbed, which must continue if the present system prevailed.
Mr. Cowperseconded the motion. Although he did not, generally speaking, approve of bills being brought in at so late a period of the Session. He thought some good might be done by the printing of so important a bill as the present. The evils now existing loudly called for a remedy. In the close and confined churchyards of the metropolis pestilential gases were generated, which caused frequent destruction to the living while engaged in administering the last offices to the dead. On many grounds he left bound to support the present motion.
Sir R. Inglissaid, that in not opposing the whole bill, he did not pledge himself' to support it in all its details.
Leave given.

CAPTAIN WARNER'S INVENTION.
Sir F. Burdettrose to move for a select committee to inquire into the negotiations of the Government with Mr. Warner concerning his invention. He had endeavoured to bring this subject before the House at an earlier period of the Session, but had hitherto been prevented from doing so by the state of public business. The case of Captain Warner he had mentioned to the House about a fortnight ago; and as it stood in a peculiar situation, and was of paramount importance, he thought that even at that late period it deserved attention. There could be no other feeling on the subject than art anxiety to constitute a competent tribunal to report on the remarkable discovery said to have been made by Captain Warner. One great object he had in view was, to clear away all suspicion and misrepresentation with respect to the conduct of Captain Warner; and war this purpose he should read a paper, which stated all that bad taken place since the present Administration came into office. Captain Warner wrote to Sir R. Peel, and in answer, received an intimation that he should shortly hear from Sir G. Murray. Then came a paper from Sir G. Murray, which was a very lucid and simple document, and, coming from that distinguished individual, must carry great force with it. Sir G. Murray stated that there were three points to be attended to:—tirst, the power of the invention; second, the degree of facility with which it might be applied to naval, military, or other objects; and third, the detriment which would result by allowing the discovery to be com-
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municated to other countries. There were two modes of treating the discovery: either to treat it with total disregard, thereby leaving Captain Warner to pursue his own course, or else to come to au understanding as to conducting a series of experiments, under the inspection of competent persons. With respect to the expense of these experiments, if made, that should be borne, Sir G. Murray admitted, by the Government. Many persons had expressed an opinion as to the importance of the invention and of the expediency and wisdom of not allowing it to be disclosed to other countries. On the 5th of April Captain Warner had a meeting at the Ordnance-office with the three individuals appointed to inspect the experiments, and he proposed that if the experiments proved satisfactory, he should receive remuneration. They replied, however, that they had no authority to promise him remuneration; and that they desired it to be understood that nothing they said should be construed into art admission about remuneration. This put an extinguisher on the whole proceeding. But Lord Ingestre, who, he supposed, was as competent as many man to judge of this invention, had left behind Jim, when he went to St. Petersburg a short time since, a letter, stating his opinion in favours of it. The noble Lord had been most anxious about this discovery, and that measures should be taken to preserve it to this country. It would he wrong in him if he did more than state to the House the simpler facts of the case; but at the same time there was a circumstance that ought to be mentioned, for it showed the hardship of the case towards Captain Warner. That gentleman made the discovery two years before the death of that patriotic, kindhearted, and constitutional king, William 4th.Had the King lived a little longer, the discovery would have been secured to the country. When he was informed of it, lie said, " Let it be kept secret; the fewer persons that know about this the better." Captain Werner desired to submit it to die late Sir Richard Keats, as great an officer, admiral, or seaman, as this country had ever produced. Sir Richard Keats was attached to the naval system of this country, and was strongly prejudiced against innovation, but he possessed a candid mind, and what was the consequence? He took not one week, one month, or one year, but two years to

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examine this invention, and put it to every possible test; and after that long examination, he reported to King William that this country would do wrong not to keep it. His Majesty then saw Captain Warner, was in constant intercourse with him, and examined the invention for himself, but his anxiety always was that it should be confined to as few persons as possible. However, he appointed with Sir Richard Keats another admiral, who surely was competent to know what was to be done in warfare, for he was the old friend of Lord Nelson, Captain Hardy, and he, as well as Sir R. Keats, was long employed in the investigation of the facts stated by Captain Warner. The result was' that they were both satisfied with the invention, but at the same time they were terrified lest it should be lost to the country, and a sort of command was then laid upon Captain Warner not to impart it to any one besides those two admirals and the Prime Minister. But King William died, and Lord Melbonrne was then Prime Minister, and be supposed that Lord Melbourne had the report of Sir Richard Keats and Sir Thomas hardy, which was now lost. What had become of that report he could not say, but some person ought to be answerable for it; and that matter alone was a fit subject of inquiry by a committee of that House. Everything having happened so unfortunately, Captain Warner was placed in a very unpleasant position. He was subject to many misrepresentations and to much calumny. It was said also that he had received money from the Government. If he had received some money in advance it would have been well for him; but in fact he had received nothing. He did not think any conduct could be more fair, more patient, or self-denying than had been that of Captain Warner; and at the same time he was perfectly convinced that he had nothing to do but to go to Boulogne, and there he would get more than he asked here. He had no reason to doubt that Captain Warner had received many offers from different parts of the continent, Vienna, and other places; and he thought under these circumstances it would be unjustifiable and unpardonable if the House of Commons did not do something to secure the invention to this country. He was sorry to see such a skeleton of the House of Commons; at that period of the Session, however, he did not complain of it; but he felt confident that if there had
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been a full House of Commons, no power could prevent them from agreeing to such a committee as he was about to move for. The hon. Member read a letter from Captain Warner to Sir R. Peel, dated the 25th of May last, in which he stated the great value of the invention, and undertook to show, with proper precautions against accident, that he could render any roadsteads or harbours impassable without the certain destruction of vessels attempting the passage; and that he could destroy any number of ships under weigh, under any state of wind or weather. All he asked was 400,000 1; but he was willing to accept the offer of Sir R. Peel:—that, in the event of his demonstrating his ability to do what he undertook, Sir R. Peel would recommend to Parliament such a grant as might have been previously agreed upon. He could not conceive there would be any trouble in getting a committee, and in fact the country would expect some explanation upon this subject. He had had many communications begging that this motion might not stand over to another Session, and it would not occupy much time if a committee were appointed. Men, the highest in the two services, had spoken of the invention in terms far higher than he (Sir F. Burdett) would venture to use. The mischief of constant experimentizing was this— that by degrees the thing would become thus known; and his late majesty King William had sagaciously recommended secrecy. Undoubtedly Captain Warner, though by no means a learned man, was a thoroughly practical man, and a very able, intelligent, and experienced seaman. He stated his readiness to destroy, at a distance of six miles, a line-of-battle ship, provided he had the assurance of compensation in case of success. What offer could be fairer than that? Would the House be doing its duty in totally disregarding the subject? In conclusion the hon. Baronet moved for a committee to inquire into negotiations of the Government with Mr. Warner concerning his invention.
Sir Howard Douglasthen rose and said, he felt called upon to enter into some explanation with reference to the statement made by the hon. Baronet, the Member for North Wilts. Soon after his (Sir Howard's) return from his late foreign service, he was sent for by the Master-general of the Ordnance, General Sir George Murray, who, with the sanction of

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the right hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, proposed to him to become a member of a commission, to be composed of two persons, the other to be selected by the admiralty, to investigate, make experiments, and report upon the practical efficacy and value of certain inventions alleged to have been made by Mr. Warner. He (Sir H. Douglas) expressed great unwillingness to undertake that. office; but, on being pressed to do so by his gallant and distinguished Friend, he replied, as he should to any other call made upon him, in which his services could be useful to the country, that he would obey. He made several stipulations, however, before he entered on the duties of the commission; that the service should be gratuitous; that he should have nothing to do with any previous proceedings; be utterly free from, and unembarrassed by, all former experiments, or any engagements, expectations or understandings, expressed or implied; that he should have nothing whatever to do with reward or compensations, neither principle or amount; that the only dusty of the commission should be, to ascertain, by an extensive course of experiments, the practical utility, the real service value of the invention; and, reporting the results, leave the Government perfectly free, either to disregard or otherwise Mr. Warner's projects; negociate with the projector, or not, as to her Majesty's Government it might seem expedient fir the public interests, on a full consideration of the report of the commission. His colleague, Vice-admiral Sir Edward Owe!), and himself', soon afterwards met, and came to the conclusion, that the only really important application of the alleged discovery, was that by which he, Mr. Warner, asserted that he could, at vast distances, destroy fleets, forts, ships or troops; and the commission accordingly, resolved to direct its attention more immediately, and particularly to test that part of Mr. Warner's project. The following memorandum, drawn up by General Sir George Murray, Master-general of the Ordnance, (dated the 22d. January, 1842) for the guidance of the commission, formed the basis on which the proceedings of the commission were regulated; and to the terms of that memorandum, Mr. Warner expressly assented.
1st. To agree upon a series of experiments to be made under Mr. Warner's directions, in
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the presence of Sir H. Douglas and Sir Edward Owen.
2nd. To frame an estimate of the expense which w ill attend these experiments that it may he submitted to the Treasury previously to any expense being incurred,
3rd. That when the expense has been sane-firmed by the Treasury, the experiments should proceed.
4th. That detailed minutes should be kept of every step of the investigation, i. e., all particulars: of such experiments.
5th. That Sir E. Owen and Sir it. Douglas should draw up a report as the result of their observations to he submitted to the Prime Minister, and to which they will be pleased to annex, as an appendix, the minutes above mentioned.
6th. Sir H. Douglas and Sir Owen will he pleased to consider the whole proceeding in this matter strictly confidential
The House will perceive that there is not, in that memorandum, a word about any remuneration, or any promise, or guarantee of such held out; and that it was distinctly stated, that the commission should consist of two officers, and that these were named; to all which terms Mr. Warner expressly assented; and, in conformity with Which. Mr. Warner was called open to furnish the commission with the estimates of the expense of the projected experiment; and, at, far from any disclosure having been made to, or desired by, the commission, the language used by it, to Mr. Warner, from the commencement of these proceedings, was, " We the commissioners are not going to extort from you any part of your secret, these we merely wish to settle with you, in the preliminary interviews, the nature and extent of the experiments for which we are to prepare estimates and make arrangements; and we desire you to make no disclosure; and, if we put any question, to answer which you think, would be to make the least disclosure of your secret, we desire you not to answer any such question but to confine yourself solely to what may be necessary for carrying on the trials; and, as to expense, that need be no obstacle to you, as the public will bear all the charges attending these experiments, according to an estimate which we call upon yen to furnish us with the means of making some delay here took place; but, adverting to what has fallen front the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire, I beg to say, that this did not rest with the commission. We had two interviews with Mr. Warner, soon after

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the date of the Master-Generals memorandum; I think, on the 25th and 27th of January. At the latter, it was settled, that Mr. Warner should report to us, when he was ready. About the 1st of February, he (Sir H. Douglas) was called away to Liverpool; and on the Eth, had the honour to take his seat in this House. Sir Edward Owen did not leave London till towards the end of the month, during which time we heard nothing from Captain Warner. Soon afterwards, he (Sir H. Douglas) had the misfortune to lose his colleague, who was called away, finally, to hoist his flag for the command to which he had been appointed; and another highly distinguished and able officer, Admiral Sir Byam Martin, was associated with him (Sir H. Douglas) in lieu. A short delay here took place, on account of a temporary indisposition of Sir Byam Martin. That officer having read, and approved, all the minutes and arrangements, according to which the commission had proposed to proceed, we announced to Mr. Warner that we were ready. We stated distinctly to him, that we should proceed with the greatest delicacy towards him, but that we would take nothing for granted; that the experiments must be carried on in the most extensive, decisive, and satisfactory manner, to prove, beyond all doubt, the efficacy and value of the invention, under all circumstances of wind, weather, tide, and distances. The commission called again upon Mr. Warner, to furnish them with an estimate of the means, material and personal, necessary for making the experiments, distinguishing those which the public departments might be called upon to provide, without drawing from Mr. Warner any disclosure of any part of his secret; and that he would state to the commission, what would be the expense of his making preparations, which he only could make, with due regard and safety to the retention of his secret. Mr. Warner then began to raise some objections; and to insist on a guarantee for remuneration, in case of succeeding in his own opinion and estimation, as it appeared to us, in his object; naming 400,000 1. as the sum he expected for full compensation; and he likewise proposed that the commission should be enlarged, by the addition of another or of two additional members, to which a decided objection was made. The commission having reported this, to the Master-general of the Ordnance, received, from General Sir George Murray, a letter,
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dated May 13th, 1842, of which the following is the substance; and there the proceedings of the commission terminated, and now rest. Sir George Murray stated,
" That he had received and read attentively our letter of the 9th instant, and had also carefully perused that addressed to us by Mr. Warner on the 6th. That the perusal of Mr. Warner's letter had not enabled him to see matters in a different light from that in which they appeared, when he wrote to us on the 30th of April. That the investigation which we were commissioned to make of Mr. Warner's discoveries, was to proceed upon the principle of that gentleman enabling us, by a series of experiments, to form a judgment of the power and applicability of the means which he had found out. But no experiments, it would appear, have as yet been exhibited to us; and Mr. Warner seems now to demand, that, before any experiments are made, a guarantee shall be afforded to him, that he is to receive 400,000 1. in the event of the result of the proposed experiments being such as to satisfy the commissioners that his discoveries possess the power and applicability which he himself has attributed to them, that we have rightly judged, that our commission does not convey to us the power of affording to Mr. Warner such a guarantee. It authorises us merely to report, in the first place, the amount of the expense which a series of experiments would occasion, that the Government may be enabled to decide whether it will, or will not, sanction that outlay; and in the second place, it requires us to report, after witnessing such experiments as Mr. Warner may exhibit before us, whether these experiments warrant the opinion which Mr. Warner has himself formed of the importance and utility to the public, of his discoveries, that his, Sir G. Murray's, understanding has throughout been, that Mr. Warner had given his concurrence to the investigation being conducted upon the principles, and in the manner stated, in his, Sir G. Murray's, memorandum; that he had no authority from the Government to hold out such a preliminary guarantee as Mr. Warner now requires; nor would he recommend such a proposition to the Government."
He (Sir H. Douglas) would now with the permission of the House, make a few observations on what had been stated by the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire, and with reference to the two branches or applications of Mr. Warner's alleged discovery, which, as specified by the hon. Member, he Mr. Warner denominates his " Invisible Shells," and his " Long Range." The first consists in placing in water, at a certain depth below the surface, a case containing some explosive composition — a submarine mine, or

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Fougasse, which, upon being struck by any vessel coming in contact with it, should, either by mechanical or chemical action, be made to explode, and so sink and destroy the vessel. Now he, (Sir H. Douglas) would not dispute that Mr. Warner may have invented some stronger composition, than any now known, and likewise some improved means of producing explosion; but any such new power would be superfluous. He (Sir H. Douglas) would venture to engage to this House, to place, in still water, a case containing explosive materials or ingredients, sufficiently powerful to destroy any vessel that might come in contact with it; and to ensure a collision between the two bodies, by dragging a barge or boat, along the lake, in which the case, or mine, is laid. But the great difficulty was, how to apply and lay out these things in a tide-way, in a rise and fall of tide, and in a rapid current occasioned by tide, and in different and ever varying depths, and in the face of an enemy's fleet, squadron, or ships, rowing guard, and observing all the vigilance invariably used? If these bodies be buoyant, they would come to the surface, and be visible, unless anchored with " short services" of rope. If not buoyant, they would sink, unless suspended by floats. How is all this to be managed and adjusted? He (Sir H. Douglas) did not attach any importance to this part of Mr. Warner's project, nor think much of it. As regarded, however, the alleged power of destroying ships, forts, and fleets, by means of his, Mr. Warner's " Long Range," the commission had been ready, and desirous to proceed to experiments; and had made all the preparations which depended upon them, as well with respect to the " Long Range," as the " Invisible Shells." They were determined however, to test this to the utmost; but not in still water. He (Sir II. Howard) would be no party to blowing up punts upon a fish pond; but, under circumstances as nearly as possible resembling real service, and amidst all the difficulties and varieties of rising and falling tides, wind, weather, and distance, to try both, He (Sir Howard Douglas) would not, unless the hon. Baronet the Member for North Wiltshire had so stated it, say anything of Mr. Warner's want of science. The hon. Baronet says, he (Mr. Warner) is not a man of science or learning; this he (Sir II. Douglas) may confirm; but still Mr. Warner may have hit upon a great disco,
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very; and the practical question resolves itself into this, could he, at the distance of six miles, as he asserted, direct his "Long Range" so effectually against forts or hulks, as to destroy them? Could he do this, under any circumstances of wind and weather? A hulk had been prepared; a fort had been selected; against which the trials were to be made, to ascertain if he could destroy their defences, and dismount their guns; and, to ascertain the effect upon animal life, some head of sheep or cattle, would have been placed therein. If, then, under such circumstances of wind and weather, as the commission should point out; against a hulk, or hulks, which the commission would provide, and against a fort, which they would select, he (Mr. Warner) should destroy those hulks, or that fort; ruin their defences; dismount their guns; and so prove, that be had his alleged stupendous power, under control; that he could direct it with tolerable certainty; that it could be applied with safety to the users; and that the secret was of such a nature as that the exclusive use of it might; thereafter, be retained by the purchase of it by the Government, either for suppression, out of considerations of humanity, or for use in warfare, (and unless it should fulfil these conditions, the power, however great, would not be worth any purchase), then, it must be admitted, that Mr. Warner, unscientific though he be, unlearned though he is, visionary as some call him, had nevertheless made an omnipotent discovery, which would entitle him to the admiration of the age, and place his name, in history, beside those of Bacon and Schwartz. But, without meaning any disparagement, or offence, to Mr. Warner, he (Sir H. Douglas), with the practical knowledge he had, and the little of science he possessed, should remain very—very incredulous, as to the alleged extraordinary powers, imputed to Mr. Warner's invention, till he should see them actually exercised.
Mr. Brothertonobserved, that the Members of that House knew nothing about the matter, for as yet no evidence had been laid before them of experiments tried. He had received a letter, dated the 24th of June, which detailed pretty fully what had taken place in Portugal with reference to these supposed discoveries of Mr. Warner; with the permission of the House he should read some extracts from that communication. The hon. Member then read as follows:—

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"In the beginning of February I was ordered to take the command of the outposts, the nearest to the enemy, at the village of Lordello, half way between Oporto and San Joao da Foz, at the mouth of the Douro. In a short time after, the enemy erected the formidable battery of Seralves, at half Musket shot from my advanced sentries, and their shot almost shut up our line of communication between the sea and Oporto. My night and day thoughts were how to destroy this battery. I seldom had time to go to Oporto, but I heard there was an extraordinary man, a Captain Warner, who could perform wonders of destruction with some new invention. I heard he was willing to sell his invention to the Portuguese government, but they not having a farthing in their treasury, of course first wished to prove the power. I went up to Oporto, and there met Captain Warner. There were many wise discussions, and I became a firm and true believer in his inventions and powers. I pointed out to him that my outposts were at half-musket shot from the enemy's battery of Seralves; that I knew every inch of the ground between; and that any night I could go there with half-a-dozen men without being discovered. This, I understood, was a sufficient force to carry the destructive matter, and I undertook to place it when it was ready. He told me it would take some time to prepare. As I permitted no one whatever to come within my sentries I proposed to him that no one might know his secret, that I should give him over a small house as a laboratory within my lines, over which house would be a sentry, and that I should give him over as an assistant to Sergeant Mitchell, of the Rocket Brigade. To this Captain Warner agreed. I sent for Sergeant Mitchell; I ordered him to obey all instructions of Captain Warner, and on no account to disclose what he saw to any human being, not even to myself, as I had bound myself to carry the destructive stuff to Seralves; but while I said this I told him as an honest man he must not let me be humbugged. I think I recollect some boxes or small barrels being brought down from Oporto to this house. I recollect Mitchell did no other duty. Being impatient to destroy this battery of Seralves, from which the enemy were firing day and night, I got impatient, and thought Captain Warner took it very coolly, and did not come often enough. About this time Sergeant Mitchell came to me to say he suspected it was ' all stuff.' I began to have my doubts, and I recollect one day asking Captain Warner some posing question. He then led me to understand that he required a peculiar sort of gun, and that he had written to Woolwich for either three or six brass guns made in a peculiar manner, with which he could destroy anything at any distance. These guns were to come in a schooner, and often did I get on the heights with my telescope to see this long wished-for vessel, as at this time we had little or no food, and the enemy gradually closing us in. The schooner
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however, is not yet arrived, and I often used to laugh at myself. As Sergeant Mitchell has claims upon the Portuguese Government, I am sure his address will be got at 94, Mount-street, Grosvenor-square. You will there find that most intelligent officer, Colonel Barreiros, of the Portuguese army, who I think must know all. Then there is Major-general Hare, Lord G. Paulett, Sir T. Lovell, now at Milan, and Colonel Badcock, 15th Hussars. They may know more than I do, but I am not such a staunch believer in the ' wonderful invention' as I was."
But it was not alone to the Portuguese that Mr. Warner proposed to sell his secret, he offered it in Spain, as the following extract from a letter which he had recently received would unequivocally show:ߞ
" As Mr. Warner values himself on his patriotic determination of not communicating his sectret to any but his own country, you may dare Mr. Warner and his advocates to the denial of the fact of his having actually sold his said secret by contract to Don Pedro, Duke of Braganza, ex-Emperor of Brazil, and self-constituted Regent of Portugal, in the earlier part of 1833, during the siege of Oporto, for, 1 believe, 2,000 contos of reis, or 500.000 1.; but declined to make an experiment en grand without the consideration money being paid to him beforehand, which Don Pedro in his turn declined to comply with, after the possession of Lisbon had afforded him the means to do so by procuring him credit for millions of pounds in the London money-market, of which he availed himself largely to bring the expedition of the liberating army to a close, and finally to eject the usurper Don Miguel from the kingdom; and this, notwithstanding the capture of the Miguelite squadron by Admiral Napier (Count Cabo de San Vicente), and the surrender of the capital, occupied Don Pedro still from July, 1833, to May, 1834, and when having previously witnessed at Oporto a miniature experiment of Mr. Warner (as Sir R. Peel did in Essex), Don Pedro would have been happy to pay the sum agreed upon at once in order to save the effusion of blood, and the waste of treasure and time, had Mr. Warner been able, as he pretended, to blow up the strongest fortifications and armies, as he was requested to do the Monte Crasto, near Oporto, and Foz in 1833; but then his objection was money down,' which in 1834 would have been placed in the safe hands of the ambassador of a neutral power—Lord Howard de Walden, for instance—when Mr. Warner might have deposited the keys of the Miguelite fortress of Santarem, so many months in vain blockaded by the Queen's troops; but no, nothing but money in hand would answer the conjuror's purpose. Mr. Warner's contract with Don Pedro, signed by him, the Duke of Braganza, must be still extant in the War-

1045
office of Lisbon, and be proveable by many of the surviving authorities, Mr. Warner having shown it to myself and others at Oporto."
Hon. Members would recollect, that, the late Government had refused to purchase the secret of Mr. Warner, and he conceived that they had done wisely in so refusing. The present Government had followed that example, and to them he gave equal praise for the course which they had pursued.
Sir R. Peelsaid, I am sorry that so much of the valuable time of the House should have been occupied with a subject of this description. Although I have arrived at a conclusion different from that which the hon. Baronet near me has urged upon the House, yet I am perfectly ready to give him full credit for having brought the motion forward with the most perfect good feeling, and I am quite satisfied that my hon. Friend was influenced by the best feeling. Nevertheless, I am bound, in my own defence and that of the Government, to lay the facts before the House, inasmuch as the motion for a select committee implied something like a reflection upon the line of conduct pursued by the responsible advisers of the Crown. The hon. Baronet said, that if there were a full House, he had no doubt that he should be able to carry his motion. Now, if the whole 658 Members were at this moment assembled, I do not believe there would be found amongst them ten men who would support the hon. Baronet on a question like the present. The proposition is, that we should have a select committee,—to do what? Was it intended that they should try experiments? If fifteen Members were selected from one side of the House, and fifteen front the other, to try if Mr. Warner had fulfilled his undertakings, how could that gentleman's secret be preserved? It appears to me, that to take this matter out of the hands of the Board of Admiralty and the Board of Ordnance, implies a sort of re flexion on me for not having more freely and decisively supported the views of Mr. Warner. I do assure the House, that though I am an unprofessional man, I still have given to this matter a great deal of attention; and with reference to all such real or supposed discoveries, I have thought that my duty was to pursue a middle course. I think that on the one hand a public man is culpable if he wholly disregards suggestions of this nature
1046
and, on the other, equally culpable if upon slender grounds he lends himself too unreservedly to their support. Twenty years experience has taught me that we arc not to take things of this sort for granted, and pay 400,000 1. for a secret, the efficacy of which has not yet been tested. Every man in office has been in the habit of receiving applications of this nature—not a day passes without something of the sort —some most specious proposal. But respecting this case, we have had rather a remarkable statement, in which, after a warm panegyric upon the character of King William, in which every one must concur, the writer states that that sovereign had given a distinct assurance to Mr. Warner that all his expectations would be realized. 1 think, looking at the professional experience of King William, that it was not very likely he would have given any such assurance; however, as he is now not living, we have no means of knowing how the matter really stood. As we can say nothing further on this subject, I wish next to recall the attention or hon. Members lo the frequency of applications of this nature, and to the fact that Mr. Warner is not the only person who lays claim to discoveries. I hold in my hand a letter dated the 11th of July, 1842, and which is in these words:—
"Fourteen years ago I made experiments in Italy, before several officers, on implements of war, of power unsurpassed, and I was urged by them to come home to lay them before his Majesty's Government. By his Majesty, on the certificates produced, I was assured of every reward if 1 would disclose the secret. The prosecution of my professional studies suggested the composition to me. One species is superior to Mr. Warner's, as a single shot, striking a line-of-battle ship, would consign her to destruction. I cannot go the length required by the Ordnance, of 500 l deposit, to make undisclosed experiments."
With numerous applications of this kind, what course was open to me? I am sure hon. Members do not think that I should at once have complied with Mr. Warner's demands. I am, however, enabled to tell the House that much more was done for Mr. Warner than has been done for any one else similarly circumstanced. His application was treated with a great deal more consideration than usual. The practice is to allow people in general to try their experiments, but at their own expense. If every man in society pos-

1047
sessed the power of insisting that his theories and speculations should be tested by experiments at the public expense, the whole time of the public departments would be wasted and the cost would be enormous. Therefore the rule is that experiments shall not be tried unless those who allege that they have made discoveries or perfected inventions give prima facie evidence of their sincerity and good faith by trying the experiments at their own expense, the public departments affording them every reasonable facility. To show the consideration with which this supposed discovery was treated, it is enough to say that I consented that Mr. Warner's experiments might be tried at the public expense. Mr. Warner stated, that he could cast his projectiles to a distance of six miles, with a force sufficient to produce the gigantic effects which he promised. This appeared most marvellous, but I was not deterred. Wonderful as it seemed I did not scout the proposition. The hulk was ready at six miles distance; two experienced and distinguished officers, Sir B. Martin and Sir H. Douglas, were ready to witness the experiments, and the secret was not to be divulged. With these facts before the House, I confess I am at a loss to understand how hon. Members can agree to a motion thus reflecting upon us. Mr. Warner, before he would proceed to try any experiments, required that a sum of 400,000 1. should be guaranteed to him by her Majesty's Government in the event of his being successful. But then what is success? Could he accomplish these tremendous results in the face of an enemy, Could he effect them under all circumstances. This did not appear likely from the experiments which were tried, and, therefore, I would not promise him a single shilling. I could not guarantee the payment of public money under hypothetical circumstances, though I agreed that the cost of the experiments should be defrayed at the public expense. It is not immaterial to observe that this matter has been under the consideration of the Executive Government ever since the year 1834. At one time, when a proposition was made to try the experiments before officers of both branches of the service, Mr. Warner required that Lord Hardwicke and Lord Ingestre should be present, but I decidedly objected to Mr. Warner's appointing any nominees, though no one can entertain a higher opinion than I do of the
1048
two noble Lords whose names I have just mentioned. At different periods since the year 1834 the subject has been under the consideration of successive Boards of Admiralty. The correspondence which has passed upon these subjects will best show what really has occurred, and with the permission of the House I propose to read a letter addressed to Colonel Cooper, and dated the 8th of July, 1831. It is in these words:—
" I am directed by Cord Auckland to request you will acquaint Sir James Kempt that an application has been made to his Lordship by Major Fancourt, M. P. for Barnstable, and Commander Warner, of the navy, for permission to have some experiments in gunnery, proposed by Commander Warner, tried before a mixed committee of ordnance and naval officers; and that it is stated to his lordship by Commander Warner, that a promise was made to him some months ago, by Sir James Graham and Sir James Kempt, that an opportunity of trying his experiments should be afforded to him. Commander Warner further states that he will be ready in about a week to appear before a committee."
I shall next read to the House another letter to Colonel Cooper, altering, at Mr. Warner's request, the arrangement made by the preceding communication. It is dated the 14th of July, 1834, and is as follows—
" There has been, I am sorry to say, some little mistake in the matter of Captain Warner's experiment, about which I wrote to you a few days ago. Captain Warner has been at the Admiralty this morning, and produced a letter from Sir J. Graham, dated the 27th of February last, in which Sir James acquiesces in the proposition made by Captain Warner, that the exhibition shall be a private one, and consequently Captain Warner now objects to its being made at Woolwich. He also wishes that three officers only of each service should be present instead of six, and says that it would be more convenient to him if the day of exhibition were to be fixed for Monday, the 21st, instead of Friday, the 18th. Lord Auckland therefore now proposes to make an alteration in the Admiralty minute to meet Captain Warner's wishes; and I am to request you will move the Master-General to do the same with respect to the ordnance, and to fix Wanstead-park, in Essex (ten miles from London), as the place for the experiment to be tried at, before three officers of each service, on Monday, the 21st inst., at 2 p.m."
I shall now read the official report of what occurred after the time and place had been fixed for trying these extraordinary experiments:
" Woolwich, July 21, 1834.
"Sir,—1 have the honour to report, for the information of the Master-General, that in obedience to his commands, signified in your letter of the 15th inst., Colonel Williamson, Sir A. Dickson, and myself proceeded to-day to Wanstead-park, to witness the intended experiment of Commander Warner; but after making every inquiry in the neighbourhood we could only at last learn that Captain Warner had left his house at Claybury this morning for London, and that his return was uncertain. Under these circumstances we returned to Woolwich to attend to any further directions which we may receive on the subject.
" I have the honour to be, Sir,
" Your obedient servant,
"A. F. FRAZER.
"Colonel Royal horse Artillery." "Lieutenant-Colonel Couper, &c."
Thus ended the proceedings of that period. Then came the experiments which were to be tried in the presence of Sir Howard Douglas and Sir Byam Martin, and he met those distinguished officers by declining to try any experiments unless he received a guarantee for 400,000 1. No doubt there may be, and we know that there are, compositions capable of producing tremendous results—nitrate of silver, for example. It is well known that a person recently engaged in experiments on that substance was himself blown to atoms, and the building in which he had been trying his experiments very materially injured. It is no new discovery, then, to announce that a combination may be produced more powerfully destructive than any which we now have in ordinary use. But the mode in which this invention is to be applied is a matter of much more difficulty than the question as to the material. Considering the demands which are made upon my time and attention, I must say that I think I have given sufficient consideration to this subject, and I hope that as far as the claim of the right hon. Baronet to a select committee is concerned, I have succeeded in blowing Captain Warner out of the water.
Captain Plumridgebegged to explain that in seconding the motion he did not intend to throw any reflection upon her Majesty's Government. He knew nothing of Mr. Warner, nor had he had any communication with him upon the subject.
Captain Pechellexpressed his satisfaction at hearing the speech of the right hon. Baronet; it convinced him that the censures which were passed upon Lord Mel-
1050
bourne and the late Government for neglecting this invention were unfounded. He thought Mr. Warner had nothing to complain of, for when he was requested to attend the Board of Admiralty to explain his invention, be sent his aide-de-camp or friend, so that when the Admiralty were called upon to make a report upon the subject, they had none to make. In an interview which he subsequently had with Sir T. Hastings, he was found to be an impracticable person; it was quite impossible to deal with him. He (Captain Pechell) had always supposed that Mr. Warner had offered his invention to Don Pedro, and now he had no doubt of it. At all events, he believed that the inventor would take it to the best market he could find, without caring for this country. He remembered that once, when engaged in a blockade, he was told to look out for catamarans; but they never arrived, and he always found that when the guard boats were sent out and a good watch was kept, they were of no use. He supposed much the same danger was to be apprehended from this invention of Mr. Warner's, although he had boasted that he could destroy a ship of the line at six miles distance, and knock down Portsmouth battery from the Isle of Wight; but he did not say whether he was to go to the farther side of the island and fire his projectile through it. He thought it might be put on a par with the inventions of Mr. St. John Long, of which the lion. Baronet had some knowledge and experience. He was happy to see that the present Government, as well as their predecessors, treated this matter as it ought. to be treated, and he trusted that the committee would not be granted, for it was not probable that the hon. Baronet could obtain any more information on the subject from Mr. Warner than had been obtained already.
Sir G. Cockburnsaid, that since he came into office he had been requested to name two officers to superintend the trial of Mr. Warner's invention, and he had accordingly named two officers well known to that House and the country—Colonel Pasley and Sir T. Hastings. Mr. Warner, however, on hearing the names, objected. He felt it his duty to state this, in addition to what had been said. He had also to state, for the honour of the profession to which he belonged, that Mr. Warner was not, as he had been styled in the

1051
papers read by his right hon. Friend, a Commander in the navy. Mr. Warner had told him that his late Majesty promised him a high rank in the navy, but on his (Sir G. Cockburn) asking Mr. Warner whether he had served his time in the navy, he answered that he had not served his time in the navy.
Sir F. Burdett, inreply, said, that he did not think anything important had been advanced against the statements of Mr. Warner; but he thought that all the facts would be much better discussed and brought out in a committee than in a cursory debate like this. Many misrepresentations and false stories had been circulated, to the prejudice both of the inventor and his invention; but Sir T. Hardy, Sir R. Keats, and his late Majesty had all expressed their approbation of the invention, and they were not light authorities. No doubt the matter would have been satisfactorily settled long ere this had it not been for the death of the late King. He thought that, under all the circumstances of the case, it was nothing but fair that Mr. Warner should have an opportunity of explaining what he had done, and what he could undertake to do; for the real question, after all, was whether or not he could do what he professed. Some of the highest living authorities, as well as some who were gone, had spoken in approbation of the plan of Mr. Warner, who, instead of being, as some would insinuate, a visionary, was a most sensible and strong-minded man. He could not consent to withdraw his motion.
The House divided:—Ayes 2; Noes 72; Majority 70.

List of the AYES.

TELLERS.

Cave, hon. R. 0.

Burdett, Sir F.

Colvile, C. R.

Plumridge, Capt.

[It seems sufficient to insert the Ayes only on this division.]

MINING APPRENTICES.
Lord Ashleybegged to remind the House that a commission had been appointed in August, 1840, to inquire into the employment of children in mines and collieries. The Members of that commission entered into an investigation of the moral and physical effects of labour upon the children: but omitted to include, because not directed by the form of their appointment, any inquiry into the terms upon which that
1052
labour was obtained. Much uncertainty and doubt, therefore, prevailed upon this point, which it was necessary to remove. He understood, that to make the binding of a parish apprentice legal, it was necessary that the consent of two justices should be obtained, and that a stamp duty of 1. on the indentures should be paid wherever the premium amounted to 30 l. The courts had decided that no indentures were valid without compliance with these conditions. He had been informed that the provisions of the law in these respects had not been observed, and that of 20,009 apprentices the agreements relating to the great majority were merely verbal, or upon ordinary pieces of unstamped paper. It was an important question, therefore, how far the law had or had not been observed; how far the servitude had been imposed with the observance of the required forms, and for this purpose he submitted the following motion, of which he had given notice:—
" That an address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to direct that the commissioners, appointed in answer to an address of this House on the 4th day of August, 1840, for inquiring into the employment of children in mines and various other branches of industry, be desired to make further inquiry as to the number and ages of children and young persons employed as apprentices to miners of coal and of iron, (whether owners, lessees, undertakers, or workmen, however designated); also, as to the manner of their apprenticeship, whether by regular indentures, or by what other forms of agreement; as to the terms of such indentures or agreements, and as to the manner in which such indentures or agreements are observed or enforced."
Sir James Grahamsaid, that the inquiry of the commissioners had been closed, and that the sum devoted to the investigation had been expended. He was not disposed to regret that it was exhausted, because he could not but suppose that the required information had all been obtained, though it might not all have been laid before the House. He apprehended that the terms of apprenticeship must have been included, and in this expectation he was ready to agree to the motion of the noble Cord, with the alteration of a single expression. Instead of desiring the commissioners to make further inquiry, they ought to be directed to report on the omitted topic.
Viscount Palmerstonwas of opinion that the better course would be, to direct

1053
the commissioners either to report or to make further inquiries if necessary. They might, as the right hon. Baronet supposed, be in possession of the information, but if not they might obtain it. The difficulty, as to money, did not seem insurmountable, inasmuch as the House had recently voted 130,000 l. for civil contingencies: that sum was meant to meet unforeseen services, and the expense of the renewed investigation might be defrayed out of it.
Sir J. Grahamreplied, that the civil contingency vote was in ended, as the noble Lord stated, for unforeseen services; this commission would be a foreseen service, and, therefore, could not he included. The commission consisted of twenty persons, four of whom received 500 1. each, with a paid secretary.
Viscount Palmerstonproposed to add to the motion, the words, " That this House will make good the expense of such an inquiry."
The Speakerobserved that the intervention of a committee of the whole House would, in that ease, be necessary.
Mr. Humethought, that the necessary information must be in the possession of the commissioners. If not, the investigation ought to he completed, and it might be left to the Government to decide in what way.
Sir J. Grahamwas as desirous as the noble Lord (Lord Ashley), that the required information should be stated in a report. If the inquiry had been properly conducted, he apprehended that the commissioners were in possession of the knowledge which would satisfy the wishes of the noble Lord. If it turned out that they had not obtained it, it would be his (Sir J. Graham's) duty to procure it. All he was anxious for was, that this should not be made a standing commission.
Lord Ashleywas quite ready to leave the matter in the hands of the right hon. Baronet. All he wanted was the information, and he did not think that it would be found that it had been procured by the commissioners, and not reported by them. When he made the motion, in 1840, it had not occurred to him that that part of the inquiry would be necessary.
Sir Grahamsaid, that, with the insertion of the words, " Do report to the House, and make further inquiry, if necessary,' he should not object to the motion.
Motion. as amended, agreed to,

PUBLIC MEETINGS.—STAFFORD GAOL.
Mr. T. Duncombesaid, it was with extreme regret that he felt himself compelled to call the attention of the House once more to the imprisonment of Mr. Mason and several working men now confined in Stafford gaol, but having undertaken the cause of these ill-used individuals, he should ill discharge his duty either to them or to the public, if he allowed the Session to close without directing the attention of the Government to the important. question involved in their case; fur he must maintain, that as long as those men remained in prison, so long would the rights of the subjects of this country to hold public meetings be in abeyance. Having entered very fully on a former occasion into the particulars of the case, he would not trouble the House by a repetition of them. But the doctrines which had recently been laid down by the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and which he was sorry to think had met with the sanction of a large majority of the House, were of the most dangerous description. According to that doctrine, a constable was invested with the power of deciding upon the legality or illegality of any public meeting of the people; and that such constable, upon his own responsibility, could dissolve any such meeting, if, in his opinion, any speaker used language which he considered seditious. The meeting held at Sedgeley, where Mason was interrupted by Beman, the constable, was perfectly legal, and if death had happened to Mason, by being dragged off the bench, nothing could have saved Beman from being tried for murder. If the language used by Mason at that meeting was seditious, and was sufficient to justify the constable to interfere and disperse the assembly, why did not the police break in and disperse other bodies of men, at whose meeting language infinitely stronger than any that Mason used were daily to be heard? Why not break in and disperse the meeting of the delegates of the Anti-Corn-law League, which was held daily within a stone's throw of the House of Commons? The doctrine put forth by the right hon. Baronet was similar to that held by the magistrates, and the presiding justice at the trial of Mason and others, in his summing- up to the jury, and was wholly irreconcileable with the spirit of the British Constitution. After such an address, he (Mr. Thomas Duncombe)

1055
could not blame the jury for the verdict they returned. The whole question resolved itself into this — what was the power of the constables? The consequence of the interference of Beman was, that the meeting was dispersed, and these men were committed to prison—Mason for six months, some for four months, and others for two months. Mason was a man of respectable station, and a lecturer; but the others were working men, with large families. Much to the credit of the people of Sedgely and Stafford, they, without distinction of party politics, being impressed with the hardship of the imprisonment of these men, had raised a subscription to maintain their families. This showed that the public were by no means impressed with the belief that these persons were justly punished, and that the feeling of the people was hostile to the magistrates. Under these circumstances, he had a right to call upon the House to interfere, and express some opinion upon the subject. He might be told, that this was an interference with the prerogative of the Crown. That was the old story. Anything that was at all inconvenient or unpleasant to the Minister of the day, was always called an interference with the prerogative of the Crown. But it was the duty of the House of Commons to advise the Crown upon every subject, and more particularly upon a subject affecting the rights and liberties of the people. No public meeting could be held during the ensuing winter—when, from the extreme distress which prevailed, it might be expected that the people would assemble together to discuss the cause of their sufferings—if the doctrines of the right hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, of Mr. Wemlow the magistrate, of Beman the constable, of Mallelieu the inspector, and of Mr. Jeremy, the police-magistrate, were correct. Without troubling the House further, he would merely say, that if the right hon. Baronet would give an assurance that the cases of these men should be taken into consideration, he should be happy to leave it in his hands; but if no promise were given that this case would meet with the merciful consideration of the Crown, he should only be discharging his duty in asking the House to agree to the address which he was about to propose. The Session was about to close, during which they had done many acts of great injustice towards the people: he now wished, before they separated, to give them the opportunity of doing
1056
one act of grace; and they could not do a better act of grace than to address the Crown for the release of these men from prison—men whose incarceration had been effected by an immense straining of the existing law. Under these circumstances, he begged leave to move, that an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to take into her Majesty's merciful consideration the case of John Mason and seven working men, confined in Stafford gaol, with a view to their immediate discharge.
Sir James Grahamexpressed his regret that the hon. Gentleman should have considered it necessary again to bring this particular subject under the notice of the House, more especially in the form in which he had now presented it, because he (Sir J. Graham) would be very sorry to sanction any course which might interfere with the impartial administration of the law. This was the third occasion upon which it had been his duty to resist motions made by the hon. Gentleman upon subjects of this description. On the first occasion he (Sir J. Graham) contended that the object of the hon. Gentleman was to make the House of Commons a court of appeal from the ordinary courts of judicature. The hon. Gentleman himself admitted that he meant to impugn the conduct of the magistrate who authorised the prosecution, and he also impugned the summing-up of the presiding magistrate at the trial. This was a distinct admission that he did seek to make the House a court of appeal from the courts of legal jurisdiction of the country. He would not deny that in extreme cases, where malversation of the judge might be alleged, it was competent for the House of Commons, in the exercise of its highest functions, to interfere; but he could not discover that upon this occasion the hon. Gentleman had the slightest ground to impugn the motives or the conduct of the magistrate or the presiding judge. The hon. Gentleman had said that if death had ensued by the interference of Beman, the constable at Sedgeley, he (Bemen) would have been guilty of murder. But that was a begging of the whole question; because, if the meeting were illegal and death had ensued, it would have been justifiable homicide. The only question hinged upon this point—whether the meeting was legal or not. Upon that question there was the verdict of the jury and the summing up of the chairman, who

1057
was a barrister of many years" standing—. a man conversant with criminal trials—of unimpeachable character, of great experience, and who had presided at the sessions. of the county of Stafford for ten or eleven years. The strong presumption, therefore, was in favour of the verdict of the jury, and of the correct summing-up of the judge. He did not think this was a case in which the House would act wisely in converting itself' into an appellate tribunal upon the criminal laws of the country. The Executive Government, in advising Bit, Crown to administer justice in mercy, must have regard to the circumstances of each case. In the case of Mr. Mason, who, as the hon. Member had said was not a working man, but a hired and paid lecturer, he (Sir J. Graham) had heard statements which very much impressed his mind. That person had gone into Staffordshire among a people who were in a state of considerable excitement, where there were large bodies of men out of employment; some from conduct of their own, which he (Sir. T, Graham) could not justify; and others under circumstances more to be regarded with compassion than to be visited with severity; and there among these persons this Mr. Mason had, to say the least, used very indiscreet language, such as was calculated to exasperate rather than appease the people. He considered that persons se acting were deserving of great censure He (Sir James Graham) could not compromise the unfettered discretion of the Government under these circumstances, and he hoped the majority of the House would support him in resisting the motion.
Mr. Hawesthought, under the circumstances, this case was one which it would well become the right hon. Baronet opposite, and his Colleagues, to bring under the merciful consideration of the Crown. He did not approve all that had been said by Mason, but he thought the fact of his being a paid lecturer ought not to excite a prejudice against him. He considered that the constable who seized Mason had interfered very improperly at the meeting. He had frequently attended similar meetings, and he would, when he considered it his duty, attend such meetings in future. He hoped the people would not be deterred by what had occurred, with reference to this case, from attending public meetings, and freely expressing their opinions, even though they might do so in somewhat strong language. Indeed, the exercise of this right constituted one of the safeguards
1058
of the liberties of the people. It was something new to be told that such meetings were unlawful; and he was still more surprised that it should be stated, on high authority, that constables were to be constituted the judges of their legality or illegality. He was convinced that all moderate men entertained strong objections to the interference of the police at meetings of the people, without just and sufficient cause; and he had been greatly surprised that such a doctrine should be held by a Minister of the Crown, as that which had been advanced by the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
Mr. R. Yorkewould in that House, in his capacity of a Member of Parliament, adopt the very words used by these men, and he would repeat them at the first public meeting he attended. As he understood the case, the magistrates hail proposed a compromise to these men; the magistrates had sent to them the night before the trial, and bad proposed that if they would plead guilty, they should either have no punishment or a very slight one. This ease seemed to him, in a constitutional point of view" to he of a very grave complexion; it could not be too often brought forward, and he trusted that the hon. Member for Finsbury would persevere in his motion, and take the sense of the House upon it.
Mr. Brothertonrecommended his hon. Friend not to press the motion to a division, for he thought. the right hon. Gentleman must be convinced that something should be done, and he would rather trust to the right lion. Gentleman's consideration of the case than to any expression of opinion by a division.
Mr. T. S. Duncombehoped, after all that had been said, that there would be no objection to his motion, and that the House would assent to it, more particularly as he had heard nothing from the right lion. Gentleman opposite to induce him to withdraw it. The right hon. Baronet admitted, that it was the privilege of the House to express an opinion, although the House ought not to interfere on light grounds. He (Mr. Duncombe) said, that this was no light matter when working men with from two to eight children were deprived of their liberty unjustly. He said, that they had not violated any law; the Government did not say, that they had violated any, and it was evident, that the magistrates thought they had not, otherwise they would not have offered a compromise The men refused

1059
the offer; they would not in their persons compromise the right of the people to meet and discuss their grievances. He regretted to find, that since he had noticed this case, the treatment of the prisoners was more severe—that they were now forbidden to see their friends, and that notice was even sent to Mason that he should not see his wife. This made him think, that these proceedings were instituted by the magistrates of Staffordshire for party purposes, He knew that his noticing the case in the House, or that anything he might do would not injure the case of these men with the right hon. Baronet. He was in the hands of the House, but it should be by no consent of his that these honest men continued one moment longer in prison.
The House divided.—Ayes 30; Noes 53: Majority 23.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, H. A.

O'Connell, D.

Barclay, D.

O'Conor, Don.

Bowring, Dr.

Pechell, Capt.

Brotherton, J.

Philips, M.

Buller, C.

Scholefield, J.

Cave, hon. R. 0.

Scott, R.

Cobden, R.

Smith, B.

Dalmeny, Lord

Tufnell, H.

Duncan, G.

Turner, E.

Ebrington, Visct.

Villiers, hon. C.

Gibson, T. M.

Ward, H. G.

Gill, T.

Wood, B.

Heathcoat, J.

Yorke, H. R.

Hill, Lord M.

Hume, J.

TELLERS,

Humphery, Mr. Ald,

Duncombe, T

Mangles, R. D,

Hawes, B.

List of the NOES.

A'Court, Capt.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Arkwright, G.

Hardinge, rt. hn. Sir H.

Baird, W.

Henley, J. W.

Baldwin, B.

Hodgson, R.

Baring, hon. W. B.

Hogg, J. W.

Bateson, R.

Hope, hon. C.

Boldero, H. G.

Howard, P. H.

Borthwick, P.

Jermyn, Earl

Botfield, B.

Knatchbull, rt. hn. Sir E

Cockburn, rt. hn. Sir G.

Langston, J. H.

Collett, W. R.

Lockhart, W.

Cripps, W.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Dick, Q.

Masterman, J.

Eliot, Lord

Nicholl, right hon. J.

Flower, Sir J.

Palmer, R.

Fuller, A. E.

Peel, right hon. Sir R.

Gaskell, J. Milnes

Polhill, F.

Gladstone, rt. hn. W. E.

Pollock, Sir F.

Gordon, hon. Capt.

Praed, W. T.

Gore, M.

Round, J.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Sanderson, R.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Sutton, hon. H. M.

Greene, T.

Taylor, T. E.

1060

Thompson, Ald.

Wilmot, sir J. E.

Tollemache, hn. F. J.

Young, J

Trench, sir F. W.

TELLERS.

Verner, col.

Fremantle, T

Vivian, J. E.

Pringle, R.

THE RAJAH OF SATTARA.
Mr. Humerose to make the motion of which be had given notice, in reference to the case of the Rajah of Sattara. He said, the circumstances connected with the deposition of that Prince, had received less public attention, both in India and this country than they deserved. He should have thought that the very misfortunes of the Rajah entitled him to general sympathy; and when it was considered that he was one of a long line of princes who had been at the bead of the Mahratta empire, some little attention should be paid to his demand for redress. He contended that the prince had been most unjustly treated, and that the conduct of the East-India Company towards him was anything but creditable to them. The conduct of the Rajah of Sattara, as an ally of the British Government, had gained for seventeen years, the entire approbation of the directors of the East-India Company. What had produced the change? He had been charged with interfering with the native seapoys; but how little was there to fear from him, over whose district the Bombay forces were thickly scattered ! Then there was a commission to inquire into those charges. That inquiry was secret; the Rajah had no opportunity of defending himself; and evidence was received from persons of the most suspicious character. The steps taken to obtain evidence were such as in any part of India would procure evidence against the most respectable men in that country. The hon. Member concluded by moving:—
" That an humble address be presented to her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased in conformity with the prayer of the petition presented to this House by Purtaub Shean the deposed Rajah of Sattara, now a state prisoner at Benares, to direct that a full investigation of the charges preferred against him be made before her Majesty's Privy Council, upon the evidence taken in India and sent to the Court of Directors of the East-India Company; which evidence the Rajah has never had an opportunity of seeing or answering, in order that he may receive that justice which, as he states, 'had his lot been that of a peasant, he would have had a right to claim from the laws of the British realm.' "
Dr. Bowringseconded the motion. He believed that the Rajah of Sattara was a.

1061
most injured individual and he felt persuaded that when the whole of the evidence was fully and fairly considered, an effort would be made to repair the injustice of which he had been the victim.
An Hon. Member moved that the House be counted.
House counted out and adjourned it a quarter to eleven o'clock.

Preamble
MINUTES.]BILLS. Public.—10 Designs Copyright; Slavery (East Indies); Tobacco Regulations; Slave Trade Suppression; Militia Pay.
2a Dublin Boundaries; Four Courts Marshalsea (Dublin).
Committed.—St. Asaph and Bangor Preferments.
Committed and Reported—Slave Trade Suppression Act Suspension.
Reported.—Limitation of Actions (Ireland); Rivers (Ireland); Parish Constables; Colonial Passengers.
3a and passed:—Stamp Duties Assimilation; Fisheries (Ireland);Ordnance Services; Court of Exchequer (England); Bonded Corn; Western Australia.
PETITIONS PRESENTED. By Lord Beaumont, from the Rajah of Sattara, for Inquiry and Redress.—From Inhabitants of Goswell Street, in favour of the Buildings Regulation Bill, and against burying the Dead in Populous Districts.

THE RAJAH OF SATTARA.
Lord Beaumontheld in his hand a petition from a native Indian prince, who, whatever might have been his errors, deserved commisseration for his misfortunes. This prince was the head of the Mahratta dynasty, and the lineal descendant of its eminent founder. The Prince complained that he had been dethroned, deprived of his personal property and sent an exile to Benares, on charges which had not been proved, and which had no foundation in fact. Amongst other absurd allegations against him was, that of an intention of bringing up 30,000 Portuguese troops from Goa, for the purpose of overthrowing British power in India. These and other charges he strongly denied, and complained that he had undergone a sort of trial by British commissioners, but that he had been present at only a part of the proceedings, that he had no person to defend him, that he had been required to sign a document which would be an admission of his guilt, but that rather than do so, be would forfeit his throne, and that he had been dethroned and replaced by his brother. He prayed that his case might be revised, and such relief given as their Lordships might deem fit. He did not mean to say that the Governor-general of India, or the Governor of Bombay, were to blame for sanctioning this deposition, because he believed the whole of the documents connected with the case were not yet printed, but, judging only from those papers which had been published, he should say that the case of the Rajah was one of great hardship,' and he hoped it would undergo revision.
Lord Fitzgeraldsaid, that if the present occasion were the first on which this case of the Rajah came under public notice he might feel it necessary to enter into some explanation of its merits; but the case having been considered and reconsidered elsewhere, and being about to be submitted for revision in the other House

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of Parliament that evening, he did not feel called upon to go into any detail about it. Whether the explanation which had been given elsewhere was sufficient he would not say; but when the proceedings against the Rajah had been sanctioned by the Governor-general of India in Council, the Governor of Bombay, the Court of Directors, the Court of Proprietors, and the Board of Control, he did not think that it ought to be again gone into now. He would only say, that any one who had carefully read over the papers must feel satisfied that the Rajah's conduct was such as to call for active measures against him; and when he recollected that those measures were commenced under the Government of the late Sir R. Grant, as Governor of Bombay, he thought it was enough to give a guarantee that they were only such as the case called for. He did not feel it necessary to enter further into the matter on the presentation of a petition.
Lord Beaumontsaid, that if a more satisfactory explanation were not given, he should feel it his duty to submit a motion on the subject, of which he would give due notice.
Lord Broughamsaid, that his right hon. Friend, the late Sir R. Grant was dead before the deposition of the Rajah took place, but he believed that had his right hon. Friend lived, the act of deposition would have met his sanction.
Petition laid on the Table.

REPEAL OF CORN LAWS
The Earl of Radnor, in moving the second reading of the Corn Importation Act Repeal Bill said,* that if he had not felt that the measure he now proposed was most urgent, and indeed absolutely necessary for the well-being of the country, he should not have troubled their Lordships on the subject. He knew that this bill related to a topic disagreeable to them, and the consideration of which they invariably wished to avoid; and as it always was irksome to him to address their Lordships, it was particularly so on the present occasion. But the settlement of the corn question, once for all, on a permanent footing, was an object of such deep interest to all the working classes, now in a state of the greatest distress and destitution, and of such vital importance to every class of the community, so necessary, in
*From a correct Report.
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his opinion, for the prosperity of the State, that he could not refrain from making this effort, at least, to accomplish so desirable an object: a sense of duty alone compelled him to do so. The change he proposed in the bill, the second reading of which he should now move, would, in his opinion, be desirable at any time; but at the present moment was particularly called for, not only by the sufferings of the people, but in consideration of the patience and good humour with which they have now war five years borne their privations. Indeed, their conduct was beyond all praise; as also their privations were, he believed, far beyond what their Lordships supposed or he could describe. This change, moreover, was eagerly desired by thousands, he might say by hundreds of thousands of the people, who had petitioned the other House of Parliament to that effect; and would, he had no doubt, afford immediate relief to a considerable extent. The bill now under consideration went to the extent of an entire repeal of all duties on the importation of corn. The first clause repealed the act passed in the present Session; but, as by the repeal of that act only, the act of the 9th of George 4th, which the act of the present Session repealed, would revive, the second clause repealed so much of that act as imposed duties on the importation of corn. Other parts of that act were left unrepealed; such as those which repealed the warmer acts creating duties on the importation of corn, and those which required the taking of averages, which it was necessary to continue for divers reasons, especially for carrying into effect the act for the commutation of tithe. The consequence, therefore, of this bill, if it became a law, would be, that the trade in corn would thenceforth be perfectly free. It might be said, that if this were done there would be an immediate and no inconsiderable loss to the revenue. It is probable that a large quantity of corn now in bond, if no alteration took place in the law, will be soon admitted; the wheat (of which there are, he understood, above 1,500,000 qrs.) at 8s., and other corn at their respective duties; and that, if this bill passed, the 800,000 l. or 1,000,000 l. (whatever it might be) would be lost to the public: if that were so, he for one would say, that the advantages of a free-trade, and the immediate relief which would be afforded, would be cheaply bought at that or even a

1011
larger price. But be did not think that the whole of the duty Gould be lost. If their Lordships were to give a second reading to this bill that night, the effect would be, that all holders of home-grown corn, and of corn which had already paid the duty, would hasten into the market, in the hope of anticipating the decline which the passing of the act would be expected for occasion. This would produce a fall in the prices, and as the necessary effect of a fall of the price would, under the present case, be a rise of duty, it would become a matter of calculation, whether it would not be more advantageous to secure the present price and pay the present duty than to await the latter, when the duty Would be nil, but the price so low that the present duty would amount to less than the difference between that price and the present. In ally probability, however, some part of the duty would be lost, but not the whole; and he repeated, that he would willingly give up the whole for the advantage of a free-trade. The immediate effect of this free-trade would be, to give a stimulus to the home market, and in all probability to revive commerce with foreign countries. With respect to the home trade, he knew that many persons would argue that, if the price of corn was lowered, the means of purchasers, holders of land, would be so much impaired, that in truth it would be injured. He believed that this was altogether contrary to the fact. If their Lordships would only consider what large payments were required for the purchase of necessary corn, they would at once see how large a sum would be retained, by lowering the price of corn, to be applied to the purchase of other articles. For instance, the average price of wheat in 1835 was 39 s. 4d.; in 1840, 66 s. 4d.; a difference of 27 s. per qr. Now, stating the population of Great Britain at 18,000,000 of people, and assuming, which is the usual calculation, that the consumption of the people, one with another, is one qr. per person, the mess of the sum paid for necessary corn in 1840, over what was paid in 1835, would be no less a sum than 24,300,000 l. Again, the price in 1841 was 64 s. 4d.; 25 s. per qr. higher than in 1835: in this year the excess of price paid over the former year would be 22,500,000 1, so that in these two years there must have been paid 46,800,000 1. more for the purchase of necessary food, than would have been required if the price had con
1012
tinued as it was in 1835; and all this money would have been expended in the purchase of other articles, some of necessity (but of a necessity less imperious than that of food,) some of use or luxury, and thus would have increased the general fund for the employment of labour. This view of the case was very much strenghened by the evidence given by many of the witnesses examined before the Import Duties Committee in 1840. To take only one: Mr. J. Whetstone, of Leicester, for twenty years engaged in the worsted trade, says,
" The persons who send their travellers through the agricultural districts, complain that the demand has fallen off as much in the purely agricultural districts, as it has in the manufacturing. I ought to say, that the manufacture of woollen and worsted stockings is almost entirely dependent for its demand upon the well-doing and well-being of the working and industrious population of the country; it is not an article of luxury supplied to the higher, but an article of necessity to the working and middle classes."
He was then asked—
To what do you ascribe the diminished demand for the goods?"
He answers—
"To the high price of provisions, which has diminished the means of the labourers to purchase; because, if his food takes a larger proportion of his wages, it leaves him less to lay out in clothing, and furniture, and other articles."
And in reply to another question—
" It is an invariable rule in our trade, that when provisions are cheap, we have a good demand: it is a rule observed constantly by the manufacturers, and established as a maxim in the trade."
Their Lordships will observe, that the article, about which Mr. Whetstone was speaking, was one of necessity, only less urgent than food—worsted stockings supplied to the working and middle classes; and they can hardly doubt, that if the price of food so materially affected the sale of such an article, others of less pressing demand would be still more affected. He thought, therefore, that he had clearly established, that any measure which would have the effect of lowering the price of wheat, would prove a stimulus to the home market. Equally benefited would foreign trade be by opening our ports to foreign corn. On a previous occasion, he had read to their Lordships an extract from a

1013
speech of Mr. Canning's, in 1826, which showed how, in that time of distress (a distress of the same nature as the present, but infinitely less in intensity), the bare mention of an intention on the part of the Government to propose a measure, merely for releasing a quantity of corn from bond had an instantaneous effect in giving life to trade; and it must be obvious, that the cheapening of the articles we manufacture and export, must increase that export; nor is it, he conceived, less obvious, that the allowing the importation of an additional article, must extend the exportation of those articles which we have to spare; especially when that one article is, in fact, the only thing those, who wish for our manufactured goods, have to give in exchange, as is the case, at the present time, with America. On this point, however, he was at a loss to know whether he should be met with an argument which, heretofore, he had heard often urged in that House—namely, that the importation of corn was objectionable, inasmuch as it made us dependent on other countries. This argument of the necessity of being independent of other countries had been particularly insisted on by the noble Duke opposite, and another noble Lord of great authority, now absent, had laid down as an axiom, that every great country should grow corn enough for its own people; whether this argument was to be insisted on now, he knew not. The other day, when the noble Earl (the Earl of Ripon) moved the second reading of the present act for regulating the importation of corn, he appeared to admit fully, that we did not habitually and uniformly raise a sufficient quantity for our own people, and calculated the annual average deficicency at 1,000,000 qrs. At the same time, the noble Earl took great trouble, in another part of his speech, to prove, that there was no country from which we could be sure of having this constant supply. Now, what is the fact? Is this country independent of the foreigner? On a former occasion, he (Lord Radnor) detailed to their Lordships how this country had grahually changed from an exporting to an importing country. For a great part of the last century, this country exported largely. It was the policy adopted very foolishly, as he thought, to encourage exportation; and several millions of money, he believed, had been paid in bounties for that purpose; all money raised
1014
by taxes on the people to enhance the price of their own food: but about the middle of the century, their exports fell off, and from the year 1790, up to the present time, there have been only two years in which the imports have not exceeded the exports. It is curious to observe, too, how those imports have gradually increased:—
" In ten years ending 1780, the excess of imports was 286,837 qrs.; in the next ten years, the excess was 645,311 qrs.; in the ten years ending 1800, it was 4,293,938 qrs.; in the ten years ending 1810, it was 5,996,350 qrs.; in the ten years ending 1820, it was 6,040,944 qrs.; in the ten years ending 1830, it was 9,413,459 qrs.; and in the ten years ending 1840, it was 14,953,408 qrs."
Thus he found, that in the last of these ten years the average annual excess of imports above exports, was 1,495,340 qrs.; if the following year, 1841, be added, the average would be found to be 1,622,382 qrs. Again, taking the whole time during which the act of the 9th of Geo. 4th (the act repealed the other day) was in operation— that is, from 1829 to 1841— the annual average excess of imports above exports was 1,702,293 qrs. If the last five years only be taken, it would be found to be 2,193,254; and for the last three years, 2,800,140 qrs. So that, in fact, we may talk as long as we please of being independent; dependent we are, and with our increasing population are likely to remain so. If, then, we cannot supply ourselves, but must have recourse to foreign countries, what is the thing most to be desired? Is it not that the supply should be co-extensive with the demand, contemporaneous with the want, and procured as cheaply as possible? With respect to cheapness, where is the individual buyer who does not seek to purchase as cheaply as possible? And why should it be otherwise with a community? Now, these objects are attempted to be attained by the sliding-scale. Let us consider how it acts. He admitted, that the sliding-scale was a very ingenious device. It was said, that the price would exhibit both the extent of the demand, and the time when the supply would be required; and that the duty falling in proportion as the call was urgent, the supply would always be commensurate with it. It might have been thought that the fallacy of this ingenious device would not have been detected, till experience had

1015
demonstrated its failure; but one person did detect it and announce it. Mr. Baring pronounced that it would fail of its object, that it would give protection when none was wanted, and would afford none when it was required. In truth, this scale, in order to effect its object, presupposes two things, neither of which exists; the first, that there is somewhere a constant store of corn ready to be poured into our market, and to supply our wants whenever they arise; and the second, that the corn, as soon as it arrives, whatever the state of the market, or the prospect of a rise or fall of price, will be sold. That the last particular does not occur is sufficiently apparent; persons speculating, naturally, and not improperly, speculating on a rise, withhold the corn when it is most wanted, when the market is rising; and again, when it is falling, and there is already at home an abundant supply, from fear of loss, pour it into an over-supplied and falling market; thus injuring both consumer in the first place, and producer in the second. And with respect to the price, does this ingenious contrivance answer better? Quite the reverse. It begins by proclaiming that we mean to supply ourselves; that we think we can grow enough for our own consumption, and that we will not be regular and habitual importers of corn. This it does by enacting duties so high as to be prohibitory, and are meant to be so. What is the effect of this, but to discourage the growth of foreign corn for our supply? It renders — the effect and indeed the object of it are to render—our market an uncertain one. If we had a fixed duty, still better if we had no duty at all, it might, and it certainly would, be to the interest of other countries, where corn can be raised in abundance and cheaply, to raise it for the purpose of supplying us: but, uncertain as our market is, however high the price we occasionally give, is it not the interest of any party regularly to raise corn for us. The consequence is, that less is raised, and, the supply being smaller, the price must necessarily be higher; besides which the whole trade assumes a gambling character. At times, high, exorbitantly high, prices are given; at other times, nothing will be bought; and the whole becomes a matter of chance and uncertainty, always greatly to the pecuniary disadvantage of the purchaser, and oftentimes to the great inconvenience of
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the vender: for it is to be observed, that when our necessities occur we go into the market with so a large a demand, and prepared to give such high prices, that corn is sold which cannot be spared without inconvenience to the country from which we export it. Of course, the man who has corn in hand cares not whether he sells it to the English merchant or to the native consumer; he sells it to him who can give, and is willing to give, the highest price: and thus our demand raises the price throughout the continent, and all the consumers there are inconvenienced. It has been often stated in this House, that the variations of price ought not to be attributed to the Corn-laws, for on the continent, and where there are no such laws, the variations are as great, and in, deed greater; and a printed paper of the House of Commons, moved for two or three years ago by Sir C. Lemon, is appealed to as a proof of this. But these variations being in the countries within the range of our demand, are clearly affected by it. There is a statement made before the committee on agricultural distress, of the House of Commons, in 1836, which strongly illustrates this. A question was put to Lord Ashburton respecting the effect of the movement of troops on the price of corn in the continental markets, and in his answer he says:—
" If the French, or Russian, or German troops are put in motion, the first thing they do is to go to Dantzick and the different corn-markets on the Baltic, and lay in their supplies;; the consequence of which is, that the prices advance in these great markets, and are followed by them in the smaller ones."
And if the price is thus affected in all the continental markets by the movement of a few thousand men, how much more must it be by the demand of a country inhabited by eighteen or twenty millions of people, and which has such ample means of paying high prices? The sliding-scale, therefore, not only raises the price on us the purchasers, but it tends directly to raise the price in all other countries, and that by fits and starts, and in the most inconvenient manner. None of these evils could attend a fixed duty, and still less a free-trade. Indeed, those of their Lordships who are friendly to a fixed duty, might, he thought, with perfect consistency vote for this bill, though it repeals all duties. No fixed duty could be imposed here; but, if this bill was passed by

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their Lordships and sent to the Commons, if that House chose to insert clauses imposing a fixed duty, it might, subsequently, with that alteration, be received by this House. He, for one, would oppose such a clause; but other Lords might agree to it. Another grievous effect of the sliding-scale is this: that preventing, as it does, a regular trade, but, as has been shown not preventing sudden and very extensive demands for supply, that supply cannot be paid for, as it would in the regular way of trade, by manufactured articles; but it must be paid for in gold. It is said, indeed, that if we regularly and habitually imported corn, the countries whence we received it would not take our manufactures; but, really, that matters not. If they would not take our manufactures, they would be to be paid either in the manufactures of some third country, which we should get in exchange for our goods, or in gold, the produce of the sale of those goods, which in the regular course of trade would be obtained. There could be no doubt that on the Exchange in the city of London, if there was a regular and habitual trade, this would be managed without difficulty. And is not this the case at present? For the last five years we have been importing very largely: at the first, when the demand was sudden, great exports (it is said, to the amount of 7,000,000 l. or 8,000,000 l.) of sovereigns took place, to the great detriment of commerce, to the derangement of our currency, and to the imminent danger of the Bank of England; a loan from the Bank of Paris, indeed, was wanted to prevent its failure; and this state of things would be always liable to occur when there are similar large, unexpected, and irregular demands. But for the last three years, though the importations have not been less than they were on the occasion alluded to, they have been continuous and uninterrupted: arrangements accordingly have been made by commercial men, and all these millions of quarters of imported corn have been paid war without any derangement of currency, without inconvenience, without any person hearing of it, or any sensation whatever. But will this continue if this sliding-scale is adhered to? In all probability, not. The late continued high prices have doubtless stimulated production: and the effect of the stimulus will probably last for some three or four years: if so, corn may become
1018
again abundant and cheap, the duty high, and no foreign corn will be imported. The trade now established will then have ceased, and the arrangements for carrying it on will have been discontinued; and at the end of the period, if production shall again flag, (as heretofore, more than once and again, has been the case,) and scarcity and dearness return, the same demand of corn from abroad, again to be paid for in gold, producing the derangement of the currency, and commercial and manufacturing distress, will recur. And the House must observe, that the same causes will product he same effects abroad as here, and precisely at the same period: the high prices here, causing high prices there, will there also cause greater production, which, finding our market no longer opened for it, will after a time be discontinued, or at the least diminished; when, probably, all of a sudden, a brisk and large demand will come from hence, thereby raising the prices abroad, and producing all the inconvenience of a diminished supply for their home market: so that all the evils of this alternation of high and low prices, of great abundance at home and of great demands for supply from abroad, are felt both here and in foreign countries; and the sufferings in each country aggravate those of the other. It is true, that, having entered on this vicious course, it cannot be relinquished without still feeling some of the evils of it: but no better course can be adopted than at once to depart from it; and no surer method, if not to end, at least to mitigate, those evils, than to open our markets, and for the future add by our laws nothing to the uncertainties which former enactments have occasioned. It appears, then, that this sliding-scale has entirely failed in the objects which it was intended to effect. It neither insures a supply adequate to the wants of the country, nor provides it at the time when it is wanted; and as for price, it has the effect of alternately depressing and raising prices, and of raising them especially when we are obliged to buy. How, then, are these objects to be attained? Simply by letting matters alone. As the great town in which we live is amply, and fully, and at all times supplied by the care of persons interested in providing all that is wanted; so, if mischievous legislation did not interfere, would the country, doubtless, be amply supplied with all the corn it would require, and with everything else that it

1019
might want, by those who would make it their business, and whose interest it would be, to apportion the supply to the demand. But it will be said, that in that ease corn would be so cheap, that the agriculture of the country would be ruined; that land would be thrown out of cultivation, and there would be no employment for the labourers. It can hardly be denied, indeed, that cheap food is desirable: all the sense and feelings of mankind at all times have given assent to that proposition. But it is said, that we are in a highly artificial state, that our national debt is a grievous burden, and, consequently, the price of food and of everything else must be proportionably high. This argument is difficult to be understood. For the producers of food, indeed, it may be very well, that, as they have heavy taxes to pay, they should get high prices for the article they have to sell; but how it can be necessary for the purchasers of that article that they should pay an exorbitantly high price for it, because they are burdened with other heavy payments, seems rather strange: for, after all, it must be admitted that this is altogether a landowner's plea. The question, in truth, is a landowner's question, and a landowner's question, only. The general consumer cannot be benefitted by having a' high price to pay; the occupier has no interest in a high price, except during his lease, if he has one; the landowner is the only person really benefitted. And as to land being thrown out of cultivation, does any man really believe that this would happen? That some lands which are now under the ploughs, and which ought never to have been applied to the raising of corn, for which they are not adapted, will be restored to pasture, may be very probable; but as pasture, they would be cultivated and productive, whereas the loss is greater than the gain in using them for purposes for which they are not fitted. That in an island of such limited extent as Great Britain, with its enormous and rapidly increasing population, any land which can be profitably used should cease to be occupied and used in some way, seems to be one of the wildest imaginations conceivable. And be it observed, if it cannot be used with profit, it assuredly ought not to be used at all. It surely is note advantage to incur a loss. For his part, he (Lord Radnor) was free to express that he thought food could not be too cheap; he saw no limit to the cheapness which he
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would desire; and he believed that it would be advantageous to the producers themselves, inasmuch as the benefit to the community in general would be so largely shared by them, that in a variety of ways they would be amply compensated for the loss of their monopoly. But he must, at the same time, admit that he did, not think that either this measure, or indeed any measure, would permanently much lower the price of corn. How, then, will it be said, is this to be reconciled with what he had before stated of the relief that this bill would afford to the sufferings of the people? In the first place, he had no doubt that there would be a considerable and immediate lowering of present prices, and that would give relief. But, secondly, if the prices should not be permanently lowered below the average, yet, if the ability to pay was increased, the result will be the same —the same benefit would accrue to the people. If commerce revived, the demand for labour would increase, and wages would rise; and if the price of corn did not fall, still the labourer, by the operation, would be in a more advantageous position. He had that very morning seen, in a book on corn, an instance when the quarter of wheat in Edward the 2nd's time was 44 s.; which to us now, with the means of purchasing which the people at present possess, appears very moderate price; but reduced into the money of the present day —that is, when compared with the ability to pay of that period—it was no less a sum than 21 1. would now represent; a most exorbitant price. In like manner, the present prices might continue or even be raised: if the ability of the consumers to pay were increased at all in the first case, or in the second increased a still greater proportion than the price of corn rose, there can be no doubt that they would be benefitted: and in this way, as he thought, the repeal of the Corn-laws would be useful. That it would not lower the nominal price of corn he inferred from this— that if perfect free-trade in corn were established, there would be nearly a uniformity of prices all over the world. The same article cannot have two prices in the same market; therefore, the expense of conveying the corn from the country where it can be raised cheapest, to that where the expense of cultivation is greater, would be the only ingredient of difference of price throughout the world; and the price would necessarily be the, price

1021
not of the cheapest, but the dearest country. As in a Market town in England, if two loads of wheat of precisely the same quality are wanted and sold, if the raising of the one cost 3l., and that of the other only 30 s. per quarter, the price of the two will be at a rate which would compensate the grower of the dearer sample, and the grower of the cheaper sample would receive all the benefit of the difference. But it is said, the English farmer cannot compete with the foreign grower— and why not? In what is he his inferiors? In strength— in industry—in skill—or in his apparatus? And if their Lordships look to experience, they will find that those years when the agriculturists have most complained, have been precisely those when there has been no competition, when no foreign corn was admitted into the country; and those when prices were high and the agriculturists happy and contented, were years of large importation. For all these reasons, he thought that it would be wise and fit to give a second reading and to pass the bill which was now before them. For his own part, as he said before, he thought it a measure so pressing, that it could not be delayed with safety to the prosperity of the people. Having that opinion, he had brought it forward as a matter of imperative duty. It would, he believed, greatly relieve the present great and lamentable distress which prevailed in all parts of the country —not only in the manufacturing districts, where they were notorious and admitted, but also in the agricultural parts—and would lay the foundation of future prosperity. Without it, he despaired of seeing any permanent or uninterrupted course of well-being to either the agricultural or manufacturing interests. Liberavi animam meam said he; the responsibility of rejecting this measure, and all its consequences, must rest with your Lordships.
The Earl of Riponopposed the motion. He denied that the effects of the sliding-scale were such as the noble Lord had described. All the surplus corn with which other countries could supply this country had been consumed under its operations, and no more could be effected by any other system whatever. The argument had been used that fluctuations in the price of corn abroad were caused by the English Corn-laws. But the fluctuation in the price of rye in Prussia was
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greater than in that of wheat in this country, and rye was an article that could not be affected by our system. During the thirteen weeks in which the new Corns law had been in operation, wheat was gradually eking into the market at varying rates of duty, and 414,000 quarters had been introduced. One of the objections to the former law was, that no corn was introduced while the price was rising and the duty falling. The contrary, however, was now the case. He (the Earl of Ripon) must say, that he considered cheapness caused by our own abundance would be an advantage, and the present reduction of price arose from two causes—the importation that had taken place, and the goodness of Providence in the prospect which existed of a favourable harvest. By the alterations which had been made in the law, the duty was now only 8s., where it would, formerly have been 1l. 2s. 8d., thus showing the great relief that had been given to the consumer. As to the free-trade principles of the noble Earl, he (the Earl of Ripon) would say that it by no means appeared, if England went to the full extent in the adoption of these principles, that other countries would reciprocate her example. Statesmen should beware of taking it war granted that the whole world would follow what they themselves thought right. Under these circumstances, believing that the noble Earl had shown no wise or sufficient grounds for the adoption of his proposition, he felt that he should have the approbation of the people of this country in refusing his assent thereto. The noble Earl concluded by moving, as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time that day six months.
Lord Kinnairdsupported the bill. The late measure of the Government on the Corn-laws was, at all events, out of doors universally admitted to be a failure; and even by the noble President of the Council it had been quasi admitted to be a failure, for the noble Baron stated, that while agitation against the Government measure prevailed, it could not be said to have a fair trial, and this was tantamount to admitting it to be a failure, for the noble Baron might rest assured that agitation would never cease till the Corn-law was repealed. The feeling against that law was becoming stronger and stronger from day to day, and more widely diffused. Last year the number of signatures to petitions against the Corn-Law was only

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about one million, while this year the number of signatures exceeded four millions. There was no limit to our prospective trade with the United States, if we would only consent to receive their agricultural produce in exchange for our manufactures. He cordially supported the repeal of the Corn-laws, and he should not be greatly surprised, ere long, to find her Majesty's Government themselves adopting the repeal of this law, as they had adopted other principles of their Liberal predecessors, after they had further looked into the matter, and seen the utter fallacy of the measure they had passed.
The Earl of Radnorsaid, that it would, be unpardonable in him to again occupy their Lordships' attention for any considerable time, but there were one or two things which had been stated by the noble Earl opposite, on which he must say a few words. First, as to what the noble Earl had said of the varying price of rye on the continent. Rye, it was stated, was raised in certain parts, (he believed the northern parts of Germany) and was the common food of the people; was not an article of export, and was subject to much variation of price, more even than wheat. One answer to this had been given by his noble Friend who spoke last: viz., that as an article of food, it would necessarily be affected by the price of wheat. When wheat was so cheap that it was accessible to the people, they would take it in preference to rye, and the latter grain would then not be in demand, and consequently would become cheap. The noble Earl intimates his dissent, and says, that wheat is never used by the people of that country for food; habitually, certainly not; but it can hardly be supposed that when wheat is as cheap and cheaper than rye, they would not prefer a cheap and a better article to an inferior and a dearer one. But, probably, a further reason is this, that rye is not an article of commerce; that the excess in one country or of one part is not available in other places or at other times; so that if the supply is greater than the demand, it falls in price; and if below it, it rises, just as potatoes in Ireland. These from their weight and bulk, when compared with their value, are not easily transported; and there is scarcely a year in which, while there is abundance (and consequently cheapness) in one part of Ireland, there is not scarcity, often absolute famine, in the adjoining county.
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Another part to which the noble Earl alluded, is the mode in which the currency is effected by large importations of corn; and he contends that as a few years ago they were paid for in bullion, so, if these importations continued, would these payments also be continued to our great inconvenience. But he (Lord Radnor) proved, as be thought, that if the importations were continued regularly and were brought about in the common course of trade, no such consequence could ensue. When, indeed, a sudden and large demand arose, quite different from the regular course of trade, then, necessarily, the supply must be paid for in bullion; and the sudden and unexpected export of so much corn must occasion considerable inconvenience and embarrassment. But when these demands come habitually and are anticipated, the mode of payment is prepared beforehand, and whether made in gold obtained war the purpose, or in articles bought of third parties, or in our own manufactures, really mattered not one jot. And this is clearly proved by the fact that for the last three years past importations have taken place; how paid for he could not tell; he had no means of knowing—it might be in goods of our own manufacture, it might be in goods obtained from others by the sale of our manufactures, or it might be in gold procured by the same method; but paid for they were, and without any difficulty or any derangement of our currency. But if this trade is forcibly interrupted by the prohibiting law, this arrangement would of course cease, and when a fresh necessity arose, till new ones can be made, the same difficulty will recur. Suppose the corn has been paid for in hardware from Sheffield, and this trade should be now suspended, and at the end of four or five ears we should again suddenly require two or three millions of quarters of wheat, of the value of some six or seven millions of pounds, is it to be supposed that the people of the continent will have in a similar way suspended their demand for knives and razors, and will at the end of the time want such an accumulated supply of these articles as would pay for the cost? Doubtless they will have obtained what they want in the intermediate time, and will be unwilling to take from us anything but that article which is available in any market of the world—viz.gold! The noble Earl had availed himself of some

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returns which he (Lord Radnor) had moved for some time ago, but which had been only presented that day, and which he had not any opportunity of seeing, except during the noble Earl's Speech, He had, however, since looked at them, and had seen quite enough to say, that they by no means bore out the noble Earl in the argument he deduced from them in favour of the present sliding-scale. These returns show the amount of wheat admitted war home consumption in each week since the passing of the present law, and the amount of duty in each week; and the noble Earl contends that it has come in regularly each week as there was a demand. That some wheat has been admitted in each week—at first at 13 s. duty, then at 12 s., then at 11 s., then at 10 s., and lately at 9s. and 8s., is not to be denied: but was not some also admitted in each corresponding week of last year when the duties were in some weeks 23 s. 8d., and in others 24 s. 8d.? But the noble Earl does not argue fairly from the facts disclosed by these returns, when he states that corn came in regularly. He perceived that the whole amount admitted during the thirteen weeks which have elapsed since the passing of the present law, is 337,000 quarters; but of these, 205,297 quarters, or nearly two thirds, have been admitted in the course of the last four weeks, and upwards of 160,000 quarters, or nearly half of the whole, in the last two weeks. The noble Earl is therefore not borne out in his expression, that coin has been admitted regularly every week. But it will be said, that this increased quantity of admitted corn has been during the late month of higher prices and of low duty, 9s. and 8s., and that, therefore, it has proved that the sliding-scale works well, admitting more corn as the duty falls—that is, in other words, as the price rises. But what is the fact? During the first nine weeks, when the price of corn was rising, and when the starving people were crying out for bread, it came in sparingly; because, in expectation of a bad harvest, it was supposed that the price of corn would rise, and, consequently, the duty fall, and the holders of the corn would thus, by delay, get the double advantage of the increased price and the diminished duty. But for the last four weeks the sun has been bright and shining, the appearance of the crops has everywhere improved, and there is
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promise of a good harvest and of low prices; and just as the market is about to fall from these natural causes, the holders of foreign corn, fearful of high returning duties, pour their extra corn into the market to its further depression, and to the loss of the home grower. If the prospects had been bad, no one can doubt that the supply would have continued sparing, or short of the necessities of the people, till the duty had fallen to the lowest point, or at least to that point when it would have been more economical to pay that duty than to incur them extra expenses of continued hire of warehouses. But the appearance of things being favourable, in comes 1.500,000 or 2,000,000 of quarters, to the detriment of the farmer, and with little benefit to the consumer. Nothing can be more confirmatory of the folly of the sliding-scale than these returns. He presented the bill for their Lordships' acceptance.
Original motion negatived.
Bill put off for six months,
House adjourned.
The following Protest against the Rejection of the Bill was entered on the Journals.
DISSENTIENT—
I. Because there exists great distress in the country, arising from the depressed state of commerce and manufactures, and aggravated by the highs price of corn, which would be greatly relieved by the passing of this bill in as much as,
1. A large quantity of wheat and other corn now in bond, would be forthwith released and brought into the market, and the present prices consequently lowered; and,
2. An opening would be thus afforded for the future interchange of our manufactures for the agricultural produce of other countries.
II. Because, even if the hope, which may reasonably be entertained, that there would thus be brought about a revival of commerce with foreign countries were to be disappointed, the immediate operation of this bill would not fail to give a stimulus to the home market, inasmuch as the diminished cost of necessary food would leave to the consumer increased means for the purchase of other articles, and thus the general fund for the employment of labour would be increased.
III. Because the repeal of the present Corn-laws is a measure eagerly desired by a large portion of the people, whose patient endurance of their suffering entitles them to every consideration, and who attribute to it their distress, and think to its repeal they must look for relief,
IV. Because I believe that this measure, so

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eagerly desired by the suffering people, would be highly beneficial to every class of the community. Experience proves that this country does not habitually grow corn enough for its own consumption; and as it appears from returns on the Table of the House, that from the year 1770, in each succeeding period of ten years, a larger supply of foreign wheat has been required than in the preceding period, and there can be no doubt that this progression, caused by a rapidly increasing population, will continue, a constantly increasing deficiency will be to be made up, by importations from foreign countries.
V. Because it is for the interest of all parties that this supply should be commensurate in extent, and cotemporaneous in time with the demand, and that it should be obtained at the smallest possible cost; and, while no legislative provision can by any contrivance secure these objects, the sliding-scales of the acts proposed to be repealed by this bill, have a direct tendency to prevent their attainment, and to aggravate the inconveniencies both of a rising and a falling price, by holding out inducements, in the first case, to withhold the supply for the purpose of advancing the price, and consequently lowering the duty; and, in the other, to pour it into an already over-supplied market, to avoid the higher duty consequent on a lower price.
VI. Because that which no legislative wisdom can accomplish, will best be effected by the unceasing vigilance of unrestrained commercial speculation. In the same manner as the wants of the population of this great town are, without any legislative provision or administrative care on the part of the Government, at all times adequately supplied from different parts of the kingdom; so, if the arrangements of commerce were not interfered with by mischievous Legislation, would the kingdom itself be supplied (always sufficiently, never superabundantly) by the unrestrained intercourse of traders from other parts of the world; while the competition amongst the traders themselves would insure to the country the lowest possible prices, consistent with the true interests and powers of the producers.
VII. Because a moderate price of food is manifestly for the advantage of all the consumers thereof. The allegation that a high price is rendered necessary by the great burdens imposed on the people, cannot by possibility apply to any but the producers; and the benefit of a low price to all others is undoubtedly not the less, for their having other burdens to bear. Indeed, the producers themselves have the same interests, in as far as they are consumers; and inasmuch as the well-being and prosperity of the whole tend to the benefit of every part, I hold, that the reaction of the general prosperity on the Producers themselves, would more than compensate for any loss consequent on their being deprived of their monopoly.
VIII, Because it does not appear that the
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British agriculturists have ever suffered from legitimate foreign competition, or need entertain any apprehension of it, The periods of agricultural distress have been precisely those when no foreign grain has come into the market; and the years when there have been large importations, have been those of high prices and agricultural prosperity.
IX. Because the sliding-scale is fraught with other great inconveniences. It holds out temptations to interested persons to influence, by fictitious or fraudulent sales, the averages for their own advantage; sometimes to the injury of the public, always to the detriment of the revenue; and by the uncertainty which it introduces into the amount of duty at any particular period, it keeps out of the markets the traders of distant countries, and especially of the United States of America. Thus competition is limited; the country is deprived of all the benefit to be derived from the intercourse which would arise from this trade with the people of distant countries, who are precisely those most able to supply our wants, and most willing to take our manufactured goods in exchange; and we narrow our sources of supply to the countries of Europe, with which we can more expeditiously communicate. We voluntarily and unnecessarily deprive ourselves of an ample, and betake ourselves to an inadequate, market.
X. Because it has been found, that under the operation of the late act, there have occurred great fluctuations in the foreign trade in corn. Sometimes, for several years consecutively, the importations have been very great; in others also consecutively, quite trivial; and the trade has thus assumed a character of unsteadiness and uncertainty, totally inconsistent with a regular exchange of manufactured goods. The consequence has been, that these large occasional importations have caused such a derangement in the exchanges, followed by a corresponding export of bullion, as has produced an alarming derangement of our currency, to the great detriment of commerce, and the imminent danger of public credit; and to such an extent, that on a late occasion the Bank of England was constrained to apply for assistance to the Bank of Paris. The act of the present Session does not, in my opinion, remove the probability of the recurrence of this danger.
XI. Because I believe that the free intercourse in corn will not permanently or materially lower its price. Uniformity of price in every country would necessarily follow, limited only by the expense of carriage from the cheaper to the dearer country; and the price in each will be regulated by the cost of profitable (the only desirable) production in the dearest.
XII. Because the same free intercoure will afford the greatest possible security against the variation of price in different seasons. The trade in corn would be no longer subject to the uncertainties of the present system; and,

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the foresight of traders, sharpened by interest, and enlightened by extensive communications with every part of the world, would enable them so to apportion and hoard up the superabundance of one year or country, for the supply of the deficiencies of others, as to produce the greatest attainable equality in every season.
XIII. Because this happy state of things, by removing as far as possible from every community, and from every member of each community, all uncertainty of the necessary supply of food, and all uneasiness on that score, would; leave them at greater liberty to pursue each that separate vocation, manufacture, or trade, which would be most profitable to the individual person or stale, and consequently most conducive to the advantage and welfare of the whole.
XIV. Because no measure of precaution, no extent of military power, no depth of diplomatic ability, would, so much as this free, unrestrained, and universally profitable intercourse, conduce to the stability of the peace of; the world.
XV. Because I see ground for apprehension, that, if the harvest of this year should be abundant, and followed by a succession of favourable seasons, we shall fall into the same state in which we were in 1834, 1835, and 1836. Corn will become abundant and cheap, manufactures will probably revive, and possibly the necessity of a repeal of the Corn-laws will be forgotten by those who now demand it. But, on the other hand, there will be complaints of agricultural distress. Corn, cultivated at a great expense, in expectation of high prices, will he produced in abundance, and will again fall so much in value as not to remunerate the producers. This, again, will lead to a diminished cultivation, and after a few years bring back high prices, the necessity of foreign importations, and a renewal of distress in the manufacturing districts. And as each period of such distress has heretofore been more severe and prolonged than the preceding, and has been accompanied by a larger importation of foreign corn, I doubt not the next will exceed any hitherto witnessed. This alternation of suffering and prosperity of the, agricultural and manufacturing classes, accompanied in every case by a directly opposite condition of the other interest, is calamitous and full of danger. The well-being of each ought to be dependent on and cotemporaneous with the well-being of the other and there seems no reason, in the nature of things, why the two interests should not uninterruptedly advance together in prosperity and wealth. And, as I believe that this state of things will be best brought about by leaving uncontrolled the free current of national industry, I gave my cordial support to a bill, the object. of which was to leave free and unconstrained the trade in the most important article of the food of the people.

RADNOR.

BROUGHAM.

KINNAIRD AND ROSSIE.

CLONCURRY