Sitting of 23 September 1841

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of Radnor, from Montreal (Canada), for the Repeal of the Duties on Canada Produce.—By Lord Brougham, from Inhabitants of Dublin, for an Inquiry into the case of the Rajah of Sattara.

THE JESUITS—COMPULSORY ATTEND-ANCE AT CHURCH.
Lord Broughampresented a petition from the rev. Sir Harcourt Lees, Bart., of Blackrock, near Dublin, complaining of the conduct of the Jesuit priests in Ireland, and charg-

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ing them with having entered into a conspiracy for the separation of that country from England, and the overturning the British Constitution and the Protestant establishments; and praying the House, that after hearing evidence at the bar in support of these allegations, it would address her Majesty for the expulsion of all Jesuit priests from Ireland. He (Lord Brougham) need hardly state that he did not concur in the prayer of the petition. Indeed, even if their Lordships should adopt the suggestion of the petitioner, and address the Throne on the subject, the Sovereign had no power of expelling from this country either Jesuits, or any other portion of the subjects of the realm. Previous to 1791 Roman Catholic priests were liable to many extreme penalties, which were removed in that year, but it was possible that they might be subject to penalties under some of the obsolete acts. While he was on this subject he would merely observe, that since he had alluded the other night to the most obnoxious way in which certain acts relative to attending worship in the parish church had recently been enforced, he had looked into other acts of a like nature, containing the most severe enactments. He was greatly astonished to find that some of the magistrates who had put in force the laws respecting the attending the parish church had not only openly avowed their conduct, but in the most public manner defended their proceedings in a way which was perfectly inexplicable to him. He trusted, that the attention of his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack would be paid to this subject, and that he would be induced to adopt steps to set this question of obsolete laws at rest, and remove from the statute book acts the existence of which was hardly known. At the present time there was a law on the statute book of a most monstrous character, and with reference to the interpretation of which hardly two lawyers would agree. It was enacted in this obsolete statute, that if any captain of any vessel should take beyond the sea any woman or any child, or any person under the age of twenty-one, he should be liable to the forfeiture of his ship and all his goods, and be subject to perpetual imprisonment. This act was passed in the reign of James 1st, and its object was to prevent Catholic females being sent abroad to convents, or children of Catholic parents being sent
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abroad for the purpose of education. The words of the act were general, and were not confined to time or place, but directly enacted, that such should be the penalties for taking any woman or child under the age of twenty-one abroad. This was an extremely severe penal enactment, and the punishment it imposed was little short of capital. This act had not, as he could find, ever been repealed. On this subject, as well as many other topics connected with obsolete laws, the House would find much extremely valuable information in the last report of the commissioners on the criminal laws, which contained an able digest of those laws.
Petition laid on the Table.

OFFICIAL ASSIGNEES IN BANKRUPTCY.
The Earl of Devonpresented a petition from Mr. Adam Murray, the land-agent, of Parliament-street, complaining of the loss he had incurred by the failure of Mr. Abbott, the official assignee to Messrs. Remington, Stephenson, and Co. He believed, if the creditors and assignees had exercised a due degree of vigilance, so large an amount would not have been suffered to remain in the hands of the official assignee. The subject, however, was worthy the immediate and earnest consideration of their Lordships. It might be a matter for consideration whether a larger amount of security might not be required from the official assignees, and also, whether the balances in their hands should not be paid up at fixed periods.
Lord Broughamentirely concurred in the observations of the noble Earl, and he thought the statement he had made would be worthy of consideration in the event of any contemplated alteration in the law. For himself, personally, he had nothing to do with the appointment of the official assignees under the bill which he had introduced. The selection was made, in the first instance, by a board composed of the governor and deputy governor of the Bank of England, the governor and deputy governor of the East India Company, some of the principal merchants of the city, and two or three judges of the Bankruptcy Court. When the appointments were making, there were not less than 1,500 candidates for the different situations, and, therefore, so far as the field of choice was concerned, it was ample enough. This board, after carefully

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investigating the subject, made a report in the course of six weeks. They had carefully examined into the merits of the several candidates, and the first eighteen persons on their list had been appointed exactly in the order in which their names stood. It only showed how futile, after all, the most strict and searching investigation into character was, for, at the time of the appointment of Mr. Abbott, no one could receive a higher character for integrity and business habits. Unhappily the result did not justify this opinion. Notwithstanding, however, the objections of the petitioners, he would venture to say that there was no power under the New Bankruptcy Act which had given more general satisfaction than the appointment of official assignees. It appeared to him that the allowing so large a balance to remain in the hands of the official assignee was extremely injudicious, and argued a great neglect of the interests of the creditors.
Lord Cottenhamobserved that previously to resigning the seals he had directed an inquiry to be instituted with the view of learning how it happened that such large balances were allowed to accumulate in the hands of the official assignees, and to prevent the recurrence of such a circumstance. The report, however, had not yet been received.
Petition laid on the Table.

THE CORN-LAWS.
The Earl of Duciepresented petitions from the Dissenters of Ebenezer Chapel, London, Wootton-under-Edge, and other places, praying a repeal of the Corn-laws. The noble Earl also presented a petition from the ministers meeting at the Conference of Ministers held at Manchester, on the subject of the Corn-laws. He begged to call the attention of their Lordships to the petition, as he looked upon it as well worthy of their consideration, not only on account of the number of signatures attached to it, upwards of 650, but that it also represented the feelings of upwards of 700 more ministers of religion who were unable to attend this conference. This large number of ministers of all religious denominations, after the most ample deliberation, had come to the conclusion that the Corn-laws were religiously wrong, because they were opposed to the letter and spirit of the Bible. The present petition was the first of a series of movements on the part
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of the country, which would either be for good or for evil, according to the mode in which they were met by the executive Government. The petition was drawn up in much better and more forcible language than he could use; he, therefore, would read it to the House, and earnestly claimed their attention to it. The noble Earl then read the petition, as follows:—
" That your petitioners are ministers of the God of love and mercy, who have assembled to consider the laws which restrict the food of the people.
" That your petitioners, dwelling in the midst of their respective charges, and by habits of frequent and pastoral intercourse, familiar with their actual condition, and still further informed by the evidence submitted to this conference by unimpeachable witnesses; it is most unquestionable that evils the most serious are preying on the very vitals of the country, and that the labouring classes throughout the kingdom are sinking into the lowest condition of physical suffering, and pining away under a wasting destitution of the necessaries of life.
" That your petitioners would feel themselves most unworthy of the office they sustain, and the master they serve, were they to view such a state of things with indifference, or to allow it to become daily more and more aggravated, without directing their attention to its cause, and seeking the means of alleviation.
" That to your petitioners it appears obvious, beyond all doubt, that whatever other causes may have contributed to the frightful amount of misery which they deplore, the principal has been the provision laws, which make the very necessaries of life scarce and dear, and by their mischievous operation have at the same time enhanced the price of food and diminished the ability to purchase it; and that as obviously the remedy for this evil is the abrogation of the laws which produced it.
" That to your petitioners it is manifest that any law tending to produce a scarcity of the food necessary to sustain the life of man, or to increase its price, and so to throw difficulties in the way of procuring it, is a wrong done to society at large, and a direct and glaring violation of the will and law of the universal parent of mankind.
" That your petitioners are only acting in the spirit of their office, when they remind your honourable House that laws of human legislatures should be framed in strict accordance with the declared will of God, and the beneficent designs of his providence; and that all laws which contradict his will, and counteract his bounty, must of necessity be wrong in principle and injurious in their tendency; and that it is the deliberate and solemn conviction of this assembly, that this is the unrighteous character of the operation of the provision laws of this kingdom, under

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whose baneful influence our beloved country is severed from profitable intercourse with other countries which are ready to exchange their products for our manufactures—the skill and labour of the industrious classes of our countrymen are rendered of less and less avail to their own subsistence, whilst immense numbers of them from day to day are thrown out of employment, and reduced to a state of utter destitution, or cast upon the rapidly decreasing resources of the humane and charitable, who, in their turn, are sinking down into the abject condition of paupers; and famine, disease, and death are spreading with fearful desolation throughout the length and breadth of this once prosperous and happy land.
" Your petitioners, therefore, convinced of the sinfulness of these laws, which violate the paramount law of God, and restrict the bounty of his providence; of their injurious operation on the domestic comforts, and the social, moral, and religious condition of the people of these realms; of the vast amount of evil they have already produced; and of the fearful rapidity with which they are driving on their injured and suffering victims to despondency or desperation, and threatening the peace and safety of the empire—implore your honourable House, as you fear that God who is the friend and avenger of the poor,—as you love that country whose interests are committed into your hands—to take into your early and most serious consideration the provision laws, and especially the Corn-laws, which have wrought this enormous amount of evil and misery, for the purpose of devising such means as to your honourable House may seem meet for their abolition."
The noble Earl proceeded to say, that before he sat down he could not help expressing his deep regret that her Majesty's Ministers bad determined to postpone all inquiry into the distressed state of the country till next year. He could hardly have expected such conduct from any body of men, and he could not help saying, that it appeared to him very like heartlessness to pursue such a course, when it was known that an immense mass of the population of the country would be exposed to the want of food and fuel, in the coming winter months. According to the evidence of many medical men, it was an undoubted fact, that hundreds and hundreds, during the last year, had fallen into an untimely grave, in consequence of the operation of these laws, and he felt convinced that before they met again, thousands would have been added to those hundreds. He thought such a postponement a great responsibility for any Government to undertake, and one, which he must confess, he
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thought would not have been undertaken by a Conservative Government. He could not help feeling that no Utile fraud had been practised on the people by the course pursued on this subject, for the noble Earl who moved the amendment to the Address, stated, that when they had a Government possessing the confidence of the Parliament and the country, it would be lime to enter on a discussion of those laws, and to engage in inquiry. This, he contended, was either a fraud on the people, or the noble Fiords opposite had not the confidence of the House. He could hardly suppose that the noble Earl intended a fraud, or that the noble Earl had no confidence in himself; or that the noble Duke had no confidence in those who were marshalled around him; or that another noble Duke, a Member of the Government, who had put himself forward very prominently as the defender of the agricultural interests, had no confidence in his Colleagues. The result, however, would almost appear that no confidence in each other was the principle of the Cabinet. Before he sat down, he would put a question to the noble Duke opposite, to which, however, he had no right to expect an answer. The noble Duke had been described as being peculiarly the farmer's friend, and it was reported that he had stated at a public dinner, a short time since, that he would not consent to any alteration whatever of the Corn-laws. Now it would satisfy the minds of farmers in many parts of the country, if the noble Duke would state whether he really said so or not.
No answer was returned. Petition then laid on the Table.

CATHOLICS IN INDIA.
Lord Clifford,(of Chudleigh), moved for—
Copies of any official communications made in the year 1835 to the British Government at home by the Governor-General of Hindostan, relative to a correspondence between the Governor-General and the governor of Goa, upon a claim advanced by that governor, on the part of the crown of Portugal, to the right of authorising the residence for the exercise of spiritual functions of any Roman Catholic missionary in Hindostan; also copies of any official communiations made in 1839 by the Governor of Madras to the British Government at home, relative to two decrees, dated the first, December the 18th, 1838, and the j second decree very soon afterwards of the collector and magistrate of the Madura district, which gave rise to an order in council of the Madras Presidency, dated June 7th, 1839,

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and to another order in council, dated July 9, 1839."
In submitting this motion to their Lordships he had no wish or intention to embarrass the Government on this subject, although he sat on the opposition benches. The grievances and disabilities under which the Catholics laboured in some parts of India, were of a most harrassing nature, and they found that they could not get redress from any inferior court, and that the proper mode of proceeding was an Address from both Houses of Parliament to her Majesty. The matter had been under the consideration of the board of directors of the East-India Company, and either a most unfair report had been made by the directors, or the directors had no power of granting redress. It was possible that objection might be made to the production of these papers, and that it might be termed merely a petty squabble between some Jesuits and Portuguese priests, who the more they quarrelled the better, as it might end in their being converted to the Protestant faith. He trusted, however, their Lordships would not take such a view of the matter, but would grant the papers he had moved for. He would say a few words with regard to a petition which had been presented to their Lordships in the course of the evening from a rev. Gentleman— Sir Harcourt Lees. That gentleman was not, perhaps, aware, that in applying the name of Jesuit to the class of persons to whom his petition referred, he was making use of nick names. Dr. Johnson being asked to give the definition of the term "Jesuit," his answer was, "A man who is rather more clever than the man who called him so." His friend, the rev. Mr. Kenny, to whom he should have occasion to refer, was a Jesuit, and had been so called by Sir Harcourt Lees, who, however was not a Jesuit himself. Some evidence had been adduced before their Lordships in the year 1825, when a select committee had been appointed to inquire into the subject of Catholicism in Ireland, the effect of which had been entirely to do away with any charges of disloyalty which might be brought against the Jesuits. A question was asked of one of the witnesses whether there was not a body of friars in existence in Ireland, called Jesuits, and the answer was, that there was no body so called of a purely ecclesiastical character, but that there were some per-
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sons of that denomination who had established a seminary in Ireland. The object of a seminary was to afford domestic instruction in opposition to foreign education, and where such was the object of a body of persons, he conceived that they must be looked upon as a loyal body of the subjects of her Majesty, and the most likely of all persons to be useful to the state. From another portion of the evidence given, it appeared that the Roman Catholic hierarchy did not countenance an active interference by the clergy in political matters. At a general meeting of the Roman Catholic bishops in Ireland, in 1832, an exhortation, signed by all those bishops, to all the Roman Catholic clergy in Ireland, thenceforth to abstain from being chairmen or secretaries of political meetings, from moving or seconding resolutions at such meetings, or from being members of any secret societies, was drawn up and published; and no instance had occurred, before or since 1832, of any of the Irish Jesuits having done what all the Irish Roman Catholic clergy were there exhorted not to do henceforward. It was expressly stated by Mr. D. O'Connell, in his examination, that no single instance had as yet occurred of the infringement of this rule. But to proceed to the subject to which his motion more particularly had reference; he was not surprised on his returning to England, in 1833, to find that advices had been received in this country, of meetings having been held in Calcutta, at which resolutions had been agreed to, and opinions expressed condemnatory of the existing state of things in our Indian colonies. It appeared that there were at that time in India several of our Irish regiments, composed, in a very great measure, of members of the Roman Catholic Church, whose discipline and proper demeanour, their Lordships were aware, were in a great measure dependent upon the moral influence exercised over them by the priests of their religion. The only Roman Catholic priests at that time there, were of Portuguese education, and those not the êlite of the Portuguese colleges, and were connected with the convent of Goa, and possessing a strong feeling also in accordance with the principles of those of Lisbon. These persons were in a great measure unacquainted with the English language, and ill-qualified, therefore, to discharge the duties imposed upon them by their position. Under these cir-

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cumstances, application was made to the Government of this country, and with a view of supplying the obvious want which existed, they caused inquiries to be made in Ireland for persons to go out to Calcutta, and an Irish priest belonging to Clougowes College, a particular friend of his(Lord Clifford), whom he had known from boyhood, who had been with him in Sicily in 1811, when Lord William Bentinck was in command there, had been accordingly sent out by the Rev. Mr. Kenny, superior of that college, in 1833, to Rome, and had there been appointed by Pope Gregory XVI. his vicar apostolic for Bengal, whether he had proceeded. His name was Robert St. Leger. After he had arrived, a letter was 6ent to the Governor-General by the Portuguese priests, demanding, on the part of the crown of Portugal, the exclusive right of introducing priests of the Roman Catholic church into our Indian possessions at Madras. This was the first letter he wished to be produced. The second letter which he required was the answer of the Governor-General to this application. He did not know whether their Lordships would be disposed to recognise an act of the Pope, but he wished to know whether, after Mr. St. Leger had received the authority of the Sovereign of this country to proceed to Hindostan, as the superior of the Catholic body there, and after his character had been recognised by the Pope, and by our local government in India, it was found out by the House, that these Portuguese priests should be considered to be the only priests, because they said so? He was sure that their Lordships would agree to no such proposition. But his information, in reference to this matter went much farther, and he sincerely trusted, that in this respect it would turn out to be false. It appeared, that certain trustees, or persons acting as such (but not priests), of churches or chapels built by certain Roman Catholic congregations with their own money, on their own ground, for which churches or chapels those persons acted as trustees, with the obligation of providing Roman Catholic pastors for the said churches or chapels in the Madura disirict, had been imprisoned by the collector and magistrate of that district for refusing to deliver up the keys of the said churches to certain Portuguese priests belonging to a party whom the right rev. Dr. O'Connor (who is not a Jesuit, nor had a single
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Jesuit in his district, nor brought out with him a single Jesuit), but a Roman Catholic Bishop, recognised in the Madras presidency as superior of the Roman Catholic missions in the Madras district, and Dr. St. Leger, who being a Jesuit, could not be a bishop, but was recognised in 1834 by the Bengal presidency as superior of the Roman Catholic missions in that district, had declared by public pastoral letters to be out of the communion of the Roman Catholic church, and who had not contributed one farthing to the building of those churches. He stated that to their Lordships upon the authority of the hon. and rev. Waller Clifford, his own brother, a Roman Catholic missioner at Trichinopoly in the Madura district. A report, he must further inform their Lordships, founded on the authority of a foreigner of distinction, was current in the Madura district, and was doing much harm there. The report in question was, that some of these imprisoned persons bad been tortured (soumis aux tourments) to oblige them to deliver up the keys. He considered it his duty to disbelieve such a report till it was confirmed; but equally his duty to state the existence of such a report to the House, as a report that ought to be inquired into. But he must also state to their Lordships, that he had not been informed, that those persons had been tortured by order of the magistrate, or of any magistrate. He must add, that the Roman Catholics in the Madura district had been officially informed, that the Court of Directors, or the Government in London,' to use the words of his information, had approved the proceedings of the collector and magistrate in the Madura district, as reported to that Government from the Madras presidency; and that the foreigner of distinction above mentioned, had repeated a conversation between himself and one of the superior judges of the district, which was calculated, in his opinion, to do incomparably more mischief than the act of the collector and magistrate, inasmuch as it imputed to Lord Melbourne's Cabinet, principles which were the very reverse of those of that Cabinet, on the authority of that superior judge. The noble Lord concluded by submitting his motion.
Lord Ellenboroughwished the noble Lord to state any authority on which he accused a servant of the Government in India of administering torture.
Lord Cliffordhad stated it as a report which had gone abroad, and had done much mischief, that such an act had been perpetrated, and he said that he would not believe any such acts. When the Irish Catholics, who were in possession of the churches, refused to give them up, a party of soldiers turned them out by force, and then reported that they had only kept in possession those who already had it.
Lord Ellenboroughhad never heard a noble Lord express himself so ambiguously when he thus accused a servant of the Government of England acting in India. As the noble Lord had not answered the first question, would the noble Lord say whether any Englishman whatever had used the word torture?
Lord Clifford: No Englishman had used the word torture.
Lord Ellenborough: Would the noble Lord state what foreign word he so translated?
Lord Cliffordsaid, as the report went, these parties were put into prison and were there tortured, whether by order of the magistrate or not did not appear.
Lord Ellenborough: Will the noble Lord read the words?
Lord Clifford; The words were "Ils ont eté saumis aux tourments."
Lord Ellenboroughhad but a very few words to say in reply to the statement of the noble Lord. He should not follow the noble Lord into his defence of the Jesuits, for whatever might be his (Lord Ellen-borough's) opinion with regard to that able and learned body, it could not be denied that Parliament had at various times entertained very great jealousy of them. Neither should he follow the noble Lord in his attack on the Portuguese priests, of whom he knew nothing except that they had conducted themselves in India very peaceably, and had discharged their religious duties in that country with zeal and assiduity. It might, however, be convenient to their Lordships that he should state, as the noble Lord had not done so, what was the origin of the transactions out of which the difference to which the noble Lord had alluded had arisen. For more than 200 years the Portuguese priests, acting under the Bishop of St. Toma, and under the sanction of a bull issued by the Pope, and been in the habit of administering religious rites to the whole of the Roman Catholic population in that part of the world, amount-
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ing, as the noble Lord had said, to about a million of souls. Some years ago a person of British extraction was sent out to Madras, with the title of vicar-apostolic, and this person was accompanied by some eighteen or twenty Jesuits from Ireland. Subsequently, another gentleman went out from Ireland (Dr. O'Connor) to Calcutta with a similar title, accompanied by ten or twelve Jesuits. The Government of India had thought it right to acknowledge the vicars apostolic as the channel through whom all communications between the Government and the Roman Catholic body should be made. Now, the vicar having thus conceded to him the spiritual authority, proceeded to lay claim to the temporalities of the Church. And out of this difference about the temporalities of the Roman Catholic Church in India between the Irish Jesuits and the Portuguese priests had arisen the complaint of the noble Lord. The course which the Governments of India had taken in the matter when applied to on the subject was simple and correct. They said that it was their desire to interfere as little as possible with the religious feelings of the people under their Government, or to give any opinion as to the temporalities belonging to the various churches; but that if questions of property connected with those temporalities arose, the parties must go to the courts of law for redress. These parties had done so, and in one case, in a question relating to a Capuchin convent, the decision had been given in favour of the Portuguese priests who were in possession. The only other case which had arisen was that to which the noble Lord had alluded, and which was the cause of this charge against the collector. But it was not in the power of the collector to give possession. He had only authority in preserving the peace, a jurisdiction, in fact, similar to that of a civil magistrate. If he had acted wrongly the parties aggrieved had an appeal, first to the state court, then to the provincial court, and again to the supreme court, where they would have an opportunity of proving their case. It was unnecessary for him (Lord Ellenborough) to inform their lordships that no magistrate could presume to administer the torture, and if it could be proved that the magistrate to whom the noble Lord had referred had done so, he would be immediately dismissed; and he was quite sure that it

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would be found, when the case should be investigated, that the enthusiastic foreigner who had written to the noble Lord had totally misrepresented what had actually taken place. He thought it was wrong in the noble Lord to bring forward a charge of this nature against a magistrate, and that without stating any name, but indicating pretty distinctly to whom he alluded. The noble Lord had brought forward a grave accusation against one of of the judges of the supreme court of India on the authority of a person unknown, and whose name even he had not given; and he must say that it was a most unfair proceeding to circulate such charges in that House without giving to the accused party an opportunity of defending himself. He regretted much that the noble Lord had mentioned the subject. He did not think the noble Lord had done good service to his co-religionists by so doing; for what the noble Lord had said could not but tend to increase that exasperation which already existed between the flocks who adhered respectively to those priests who were quarrelling for those temporal possessions of the Church. It would have been far better to have left the matter in silence now, as the noble Lord had done during the period when his own political Friends were in office — than thus, by alluding to it, to add to that ill feeling which already existed between those religious bodies. Nothing which the noble Lord had said— nothing which he was likely to say, could embarrass the Government here; but if by the course he took he should create exasperation more than already existed amongst the religious bodies in Madras, he would, without doubt increase the difficulties of the Government there, while he would fail in doing good service to those to whom he was desirous of rendering assistance. The papers for which the noble Lord had moved were so described that the India Board had been unable to find them. Whether they existed or not he (Lord Ellenborough) did not know. With regard to the first of these papers —the letter of the Governor of Goa and the answer of Lord Bentinck—he could have no objection to produce them; and he should, at the same time, move for and lay upon the table some other papers connected with the same subject, including a letter from the Governor of Goa to Lord Bentinck, and the answer thereto by the President of the
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Council of Calcutta; also a petition transmitted by the vicar apostolic of Madras to the governor of that province, and the answer thereto; in which documents it would be seen that the priests to whom allusion had been made were, notwithstanding what the noble Lord had said, distinctly described as Jesuits. He would only repeat that if any magistrate had exceeded his powers in administering the law, there could be no doubt whatever, if proof of such illegal acts were forthcoming, that the government at Madras would be ready and willing to punish the parties who had committed them.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
Papers laid on the Table.

DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.
The Marquess of Lansdowne,in presenting a petition from protestant dissenters of Hackney, praying the House, without additional delay to relieve the distress of the manufacturing districts and stop what the petitioners believed to be impending national misery and irretrievable ruin, observed that he had seen with great concern that her Majesty's Ministers had not requested the attention of the House to that important inquiry which the people of this country had a right to expect, and for which the address lately agreed to by their Lordships had prepared them; because he believed that it was the duty of Parliament to go into the inquiry, if it had been proposed. As it had not been proposed, however, by her Majesty's Ministers, it was not his intention or the intention of any other noble Lord near him, to press the subject upon Parliament, but they would wait earnestly and anxiously for that declaration of opinion which must, sooner or later, proceed from her Majesty's Government.
The Duke of Wellingtonthought that if the noble Lord had reflected he would have been of opinion that it was impossible to enter upon any inquiry that could have been brought to a close between this and the probable termination of the Session.
Adjourned till Monday.