Sitting of 16 September 1841

MINUTES.
Several Members of the New Administration took their Seats on their Re-election.
New Writs were issued for Port Arlington, in the room of the right hon. George Lionel Damon Darner, Comptroller of

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her Majesty's Household; and for Cavan, in the room of John Young, Esq., Commissioner of the Treasury.
Bills. Read second time:—Foreign Bishops.—Read first time:—Royal Gardens.
Election Petitions. Dublin cy. abandoned.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Sir R. Peel: I rise, Sir, to move for a paper to which it is, perhaps, desirable that I should at once call the attention of the House, and which is connected with the execution of those works which are now in progress for building the two new Houses of Parliament, and with the adoption of measures for warming and ventilating the present Houses. In making this motion, it will, perhaps, be for the general convenience of the House, that I should avail myself of the opportunity of stating the course which it is my intention, on the part of her Majesty's Government, to pursue with respect to the public business of the country. Notice has been already given for to-morrow, of taking into consideration those estimates for which complete provision has not been made in the late Session of Parliament. That vote will refer to the miscellaneous services of the year. One half of the sum which will be required for the provision for those services has been already provided by her Majesty's late Government in the last Session of Parliament; and what I propose to do is, to adopt those estimates, without exception, as they were framed by her Majesty's late Ministers, and to submit them to the House exactly in the form in which they were proposed by them to the last Parliament. The course pursued on former occasions has been to take, by one vote, the remaining sum which might be required to provide for those services; but, in the present instance, these estimates themselves have not been submitted to the detailed consideration of the House. A sum was taken on account in the last Session; and I apprehend that it would be more desirable, and more satisfactory to the House, that the estimates should be taken into consideration in detail now, rather than one sum should be taken in gross to provide for the public service. I propose, therefore, to submit each sum to the House in detail, and to take a separate vote with respect to each of them. I know not, Sir, that it is necessary to make any proposition to the House, with respect to estimates for any other services than those which were included in the estimates presented to the House
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by the late Government, during the last Session of Parliament; but there is one item of expenditure, at the same time, to which it will be my duty to direct its attention. It is connected with that particular item of expenditure to which I have already referred, namely, the additional sum which will be required with reference to the construction of the two new Houses of Parliament now in process of erection. The works connected with those buildings are now advanced to such a period, that if the two Houses of Parliament shall determine that it is desirable that mode of warming and ventilating the new Houses, similar to that which has been provided for this House, should be adopted, it will be necessary that provision should at once be made for that purpose. The state of those buildings is such, that the flues and other works necessary to the carrying out of that design must be immediately provided. If these works are to be undertaken, they must, the House will perceive, be commenced without further delay. I cannot but think, however, that it is not fit that anything in connection with a work of such magnitude as the building of the new Houses of Parliament should be carried out by money from the Treasury without that money being first voted under the sanction of the House of Commons. On a former occasion, upon a question of a similar nature, a committee was appointed by each House to consider the subject, and, in my opinion, it would be convenient and proper that a similar course should be pursued in the present instance. I think it is advisable, that a sum of money, amounting, if the works are to be carried out in accordance with the propositions of Dr. Reid and Mr. Barry, to between 80,000 l. and 90,000 l., should not be expended without having received the previous sanction and approbation of Parliament. If, therefore, any committee shall be appointed upon this subject, I can only express my hope and trust, that it will confine itself to the consideration of the object for which it will be nominated— that it will limit its inquiries entirely to the consideration of the proposed mode of heating and ventilating the new Houses— and that it will not extend it to anything which may cause inconvenience or interference in the progress of those works. Sir, it will be my intention to propose a bill to continue in operation those laws which would expire within a limited period with-

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out the intervention of Parliament. There are some laws which would expire within a period definitely fixed, and others that would expire at the end of the first Session of Parliament. With respect to these laws, I would submit to the House the propriety of extending them to a definite period. Of these the most important is unquestionably the Poor-law Act. That part of that Act which constitutes the Poor-law commission will expire on the 31st of December next unless it shall previously have been renewed. I shall, propose, therefore, to continue that bill as it stands to the 31st of July, 1842, in order to enable her Majesty's Government to consider, in the mean time, the nature of those provisions which they may think it their duty to bring forward in connection with the Poor-law. There are, also, other laws, some of them of greater, and some of lesser importance, which will expire at an early day, or at the end of the present Session of Parliament, and with regard to these laws I shall propose bills to secure their further operation to a definite period. The Poor-law Act, however, involves a most important principle, and it will be for the House to decide, whether or not it will be the most convenient course that that Act shall be extended for the present by means of a continuance bill. If a strong opinion should be expressed on the part of the House, that the continuance of the Poor-law should be provided for by means of a further and separate law upon the subject, rather than by the manner to which I have referred, I shall be ready, although I have an objection to load the statute-book unnecessarily, to listen to any suggestions on the part of the House upon the subject. With regard to election petitions, Sir, it appears to me, that it will be for the general interest and convenience of the House to adopt no precedent respecting them at present. I believe, that under the present law relating to such petitions, no Act of the House is necessary in order to suspend proceedings connected with them, but that it rests with the general committee on election petitions to appoint and determine the days on which they shall be heard, and I trust that the House will feel, that it would be highly inexpedient to proceed with the consideration of any election petition at the present time. With respect to the financial arrangements of the country,
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my right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will, on the earliest day on which a committee of ways and means can be fixed, state to the House what is the extent of the deficiency to be provided; for, viz., the difference between the revenue and the estimated expenditure of the present year. I apprehend, that that deficiency will be found not to fall short of the estimate given by the right hon. Gentleman, the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that it is probable, that a sum of 2,500,000 l. will have to be provided for the service of the present year. My right hon. Friend will inform the House with respect to the details of the particular classes of deficiency on the occasion to which I have referred, and will avail himself of that opportunity of stating the nature of the measures it will be his intention to propose, with a view to make temporary provision for the removal of the deficiency in question. With reference to measures, however, of a more permanent character which it may be necessary to adopt with regard to the equalisation of the revenue with the expenditure of the country, it is not my intention, during the present Session of Parliament, to submit any propositions to the consideration of the House. I have, as the House is aware, already stated my opinion, that it is absolutely necessary that some means should be provided to equalise the revenue with the expenditure, and it is our intention to avail ourselves of the earliest opportunity, after, and consistent with, the maturest consideration of all the circumstances of the country, of submitting to Parliament measures for the remedy of the existing evil. Whether that remedy can be best effected by a diminution of the expenditure or an increase of the revenue of the country, or whether it can be best secured by a combination of these two means; namely, by a diminution of expenditure and an increase of revenue, is a question which I must postpone for future consideration. It is sufficient for me to state a strong opinion that it is impossible that the country, consistently with a due regard to the public service, can continue to proceed in the course which, perhaps unavoidably, has been pursued for the last few years; viz., that of creating a large deficiency in time of peace, and incurring a considerable debt. But as to the mode in which that great evil can be remedied, I must ask for that

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degree of confidence from the House which will enable her Majesty's Government to give the subject their most serious consideration. With respect to other measures of permanent operation and important character, I must make the same appeal to the confidence of the House. It is quite true that, for some days past, I and my colleagues have been in possession of the Government of the country, but I dare say the House will readily believe that the arrangements which it has been my duty to make for the constitution of the Government, and other arrangements connected with it, have not placed me in a much better situation to pronounce a positive opinion on measures of such immense and paramount importance, than I was before. I do assure the House that it is not from any neglect of public duty that I forbear from immediate legislation on matters of such importance. I can assure the House that I forbear, not on account of the advanced period of the year, not on account of the probably deficient attendance of Members, not on account of the temptations of other avocations to withdraw attention from Parliamentary duties—for I am of opinion that all such considerations ought to be sacrificed to the principle of public duty, and ought not to interfere in the slightest degree with the consideration of measures affecting the public interests; the grounds on which I forbear from calling the attention of Parliament to measures of that important character rest in the peculiar circumstances connected with the formation of the Government. I thought I might infer from the general expression of opinion, and, as it appears, the just and liberal expression of opinion which took place before the late elections, that there was a general desire on the part of those who would probably be the warmest opponents of her Majesty's Government to give them a fair opportunity of considering the measures which it might be their duty to submit to the Legislature. I firmly believe it is for the public good that that opportunity should be given, and that on the earliest possible occasion after the time that Parliament ordinarily meets, the opinions of her Majesty's Government on those important subjects should be stated to Parliament; but in the mean time I trust there will not be any misconstruction of what appears the general feeling, that on the whole it is advisable
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upon the constitution of the new Government that time should be afforded them to weigh maturely the measures they may think it their duty to submit, connected with the permanent, financial and commercial arrangements of the country. I beg leave to move, Sir, for a copy of a letter from the First Commissioners of Woods, &c. to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the subject of warming, ventilating and securing from fire the new Houses of Parliament.
The motion having been seconded,
Lord John Russellsaid Sir, with respect to the immediate purposes for which the right hon. Gentleman has moved for these papers, I am certainly not likely to differ from any measures which may be proposed in accordance with them. I have entire confidence in the course which I conceive the right hon. Baronet may think fit to adopt on that score, and I think we have all of us experienced the benefit of the plans which these papers suggest and recommend. With respect to any expense that may be required for the purpose of carrying out the end aimed at, I have no doubt that the Treasury and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, will use every requisite expedition in attending to it. With respect to the estimates, to the framing of which I was myself, well as the other Members of the late Government, a party, I can, of course, only say that I shall offer no opposition to their being granted, and I shall consider it my duty to give my support to any of them, the necessity for which shall be questioned. But with regard to the other questions to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred, I shall take an opportunity, before the House goes into a committee of supply to-morrow, of stating the course which I think ought to be pursued with reference to the present slate of public affairs. I do not think it would be convenient that I should enter now into these considerations. I am of opinion that the course I propose to adopt—that of making the observations I wish to address to the House before going into supply to-morrow—more consistent with the practice of the House. I can only say, on the present occasion, that I heard with great concern the intention of the right hon. Gentleman not to propose any measures of importance in the present Session of Parliament. I will not say, that during the last few days in which the right

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hon. Gentleman has been occupied, agreeably with the instructions given him by her Majesty, in the formation and construction of the Government, he can have given any very great share of his attention to the measures which he may wish to introduce; but, considering the great length of time which has elapsed since the proposal of important measures by the late Administration, and considering the present state of the country, I must say that, in my opinion, the Government, as now constituted, ought at once, or in the course of the present autumn to lay before Parliament the measures it intends to propose. I inferred from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that it is his intention, having obtained the necessary supplies—having made temporary provision for the public credit, and having renewed the Poor-law and some other expiring acts for a few months—not to call the House of Commons together again until the ordinary period of assembling— at the commencment of the next year. Now, Sir, I do not consider that course to be advisable in the present state of the country, and particularly as the right hon. Gentleman has himself said, that the House of Commons ought not to attend to questions of personal convenience when matters of great political importance require our attention. I will not now, however, enter further into these matters than to say that I will take the opportunity to which I have referred of stating my opinion upon them to-morrow; and I may be permitted to add that in so doing I am not actuated by any desire to offer any embarrassing opposition to any course which the right hon. Gentleman may think proper to adopt, but merely wish to state that, which in my own opinion, is the course, which under the existing circumstances of the country, ought to be pursued.
Motion agreed to.

FOREIGN TARIFFS.
Dr. Bowringsaid, that he had given notice of his intention to move for certain returns relative to the commercial regulations of other countries with respect to our own; but, as he understood that some progress had been made in preparing those returns, if the right hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Gladstone) would inform him that they should b presented to the House, he should be glad to leave the matter in his hands. At the
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same time he would suggest a regulation which would be of great advantage, namely, that, from time to time, or periodically, the changes made in the commercial relations between this and other countries should be reported to the House.
Mr. Gladstonesaid, that, in June last, the late President of the Board of Trade informed the House that one of the secretaries of that board had taken great pains in obtaining information upon the subject of the commercial tariffs of foreign countries, and had stated, that when his report should be prepared in the proper form, he would lay it upon the Table of the House. The noble Lord (Lord Ripon) at the head of the Board of Trade, entirely approved of that intention of his predecessor, and Mr. M'Gregor had received instructions to proceed with the preparation of that information. The House must be aware that this was a work of very considerable difficulty, and one requiring great accuracy, but as soon as it could be prepared it should be laid on the Table of the House. He also agreed that provision should be made with British agents abroad, to supply the Government at home with regular information of changes made by foreign countries in their commercial regulations.

COMMENCEMENT OF BUSINESS.
Lord J. Russellinquired at what hour to-morrow it was the intention of the right hon. Baronet to commence the public business of the House?
Sir R. Peelsaid, that he thought it would be convenient to the House if it was generally understood that in future public business should commence at an earlier hour. He would propose, therefore, that petitions should continue to be presented till five o'clock, but that if there were no petitions they should commence public business at half-past four.

ROYAL DEMESNES — KENSINGTON GARDENS.
Sir T. Fremantlerose to propose a bill for annexing the mansion-house, gardens, and grounds at Frogmore (part of the land revenue of the Crown) to Windsor Castle; and also to move for leave to bring in a bill to authorise the leasing the Royal kitchen gardens at Kensington, for building purposes, and to enable her Majesty's Commissioners of Woods, &c, to expend the value thereof in the formation and improvement of the

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Royal gardens, and to enable the said Commissioners, on behalf of her Majesty, to purchase lands of copyhold or customary tenure. The hon. Gentleman said that these measures had received the sanction of the late government, and were approved by the present Government; in fact, he was only carrying out measures which he had found in a state of great forwardness. The reason he had brought them forward this Session was, that he found delay would be a great inconvenience, and that it was desirable that no time should be lost in the formation of a kitchen garden. The first measure was to annex Frogmore to the Crown so as to make it a part of the demesne of Windsor Castle. At present it belonged to their Royal Highnesses the Princess Sophia and the Duchess of Gloucester, though their life interests had been purchased by the Crown, and had reverted to the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. The use of those gardens was connected with the establishment at Windsor, and it would be a matter of great inconvenience to her Majesty if that property were let to mere casual tenants. It had been considered, therefore, that it would be advisable that those gardens should be made part of the demesne of the Crown at Windsor, and therefore it was, that the present act was introduced. With regard to the other part of the property, that would remain in the hands of the commissioners. With respect to the other bill, much inconvenience had been felt for some years in consequence of the insufficient supply of fruits and vegetables for her Majesty and the Royal household from the various kitchen gardens, of which there were six, all cultivated at great expense, and yet not yielding an adequate supply. By the present bill it was proposed to remedy this defect. By the arrangement proposed to be adopted by the present bill, no additional charge would be imposed upon the public. He believed with respect to the first of those measures it would be necessary previous to its introduction to go into a committee of the whole House. With respect to the second bill, he should propose its introduction at once; and as to the other, he should propose that the House should go into committee on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman moved for leave to bring in a bill to authorize the Commissioners of Woods to grant building leases of the Royal kitchen gardens at Kensington, &c.
Mr. Protheroesaid, he must protest at once against this bill, and would give it all the opposition in his power. That opposition had nothing of a party character, because the Government of the right hon. Baronet was not responsible for the measure, which had originated with their predecessors; and he would have opposed it as earnestly if it had been introduced by the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) below him as by the right hon. Baronet. He hoped that his hon. Friend would reconsider the course which he proposed to adopt. At the moment when measures were in progress in the formation of additional Royal parks and public walks, and places of recreation for the people, it was manifestly absurd to give away a large portion of Kensington Gardens for such a purpose as was proposed. He wished his hon. Friend had taken a walk with him that morning into Kensington Gardens, and had seen the ground in question, for he was sure he would agree with him as to the convenience of adding it to the Park to which it was immediately contiguous. He thought, whether they regarded the convenience of the Sovereign, or of the inhabitants of Kensington, or of the public generally, nothing could be more injudicious than to build on that spot. Villas were not wanted, and speculations on the part of the Government were not always well managed or profitable. Hyde Park and Kensington Gardens constituted no longer the commencement of the country in that direction, but they were surrounded by a dense town population, and would soon be as much in the interior of the metropolis as Lincoln's Innfields. He trusted Government would use the opportunity of throwing open this place to the public, and apply to the House for the sum of money necessary for the convenience of the Crown in consolidating the kitchen gardens. At a further stage he would offer to the measure every opposition in his power.
Mr. Williamsbegged to ask if any estimate had been made of the expense of consolidating the kitchen gardens? He approved of the proposed disposal of this piece of ground, but he did not approve of the purpose to which the proceeds were to be applied. He thought that when the working classes were suffering so much distress, and when so much money was expended on palaces, and parks, the proceeds of this piece of ground ought to be

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applied to the repairs of the palaces, and relieve the public from so much of the expense.
Sir T. Fremantlesaid, that the estimated cost of consolidating the kitchen gardens would be reduced, by the conversion of this property, which at a low estimate would let for about 1,000 l. per annum.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that it appeared that, for the paltry sum of one thousand pounds a year the only open space which existed beteen the Palace towards the east and the church in Kensington towards the west was to be entirely lost to the public. The hon. Gentleman stated, that the measure was one which would have been brought forward by the late Administration. It was, indeed, one of the great measures upon which the two Administrations concurred in opinion. It was a bad beginning. He hoped the hon. Gentleman himself would go down to Kensington and see this place; and as he remembered a good deal of what the right hon. Baronet had said of late years with respect to the working classes, their recreations and amusements, he entreated the right hon. Gentleman to visit the ground which it was proposed to sacrifice. The people in the neighbourhood complained loudly on the subject. They looked upon it as a deplorable evil that they should be deprived of such an open space of ground, at a time when the Government were spending thousands for the comfort of the inhabitants of other parts of the metropolis. The ground in question was excluded, in a great measure, from public view, but it lay adjacent to a densely-peopled neighbourhood, the inhabitants of which would be greatly benefited by having the space thrown open. It was an advantage which they would greatly prize. He was astonished to find that the late Administration, which professed to be so friendly to the people, should have entertained for a moment the project of building upon the space alluded to; and he would again entreat the Members of the new Government to visit the spot before they came to a definitive resolution on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman himself had commenced their proceedings that night with a motion relating to the health of hon. Members. Now, let them think of the health of the poor as well as of their own. The noble Lord had spoken in the highest terms of Dr. Reid's Administration. Now, he approved of that Ad-
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ministration also in a sanatory sense, and he would entreat the present Government to re-consider the subject under discussion. He might next be permitted to allude, for one moment, to the statement, of the right hon. Baronet with reference to the Poor-law. He thought the time which the right hon. Baronet asked for considering that subject was not unreasonable. The right hon. Baronet asked that the Poor-law should be continued in its present form until the month of July nest year. He was bold to say, that the time was not too long. The subject was one of enormous magnitude—it was one which should be approached with so much judgment and consideration that he felt it would not be unreasonable to allow the existing law to be prolonged for six months from the present time. He did trust that in the mean time the most sober judgment would be applied to the question, for it was one of such importance and involving so many great interests that it was impossible for that House or the other House of Parliament to obtain the slightest respect or confidence from the public, unless it was treated with the consideration it deserved. He thought the time asked was not too long, for he had not heard any individual whatever say what he considered in the present state of things, ought to be done with regard to that law—and therefore no one could consider that the time asked by the right hon. Baronet was too protracted. He hoped that the interval would be employed in a calm consideration of the subject, so as to bring about such an arrangement of this most important question as might be satisfactory to the community at large.
Sir R. Peel: I rise to say a few words with reference to what fell from the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Protheroe), who has stated that he hopes for some success in the opposition he intends to offer to this bill, because the measure was not originally brought forward on the responsibility of the present Government. Now, Sir, I consider that, by now bringing forward this bill, the present Government is assuming to itself the responsibility of the measure, because it is one which we might have abstained from bring forward if we had thought proper. The noble Lord (John Russell) opposite, has confined his confidence to the Administration of Dr. Reid, and has appeared unwilling to extend it to those who have succeeded him in the

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Government of the country. I, Sir, am disposed to admit that there was one of the colleagues of the noble Lord whose share of the Administration has entitled him to great confidence, and I must say, that by his exertions in connection with the office of woods, guarding myself, of course, against any expression of approbation as to any more extended measures, Lord Duncannon has rendered himself worthy of great praise. When I heard, therefore, that the present Bill had received the approbation of Lord Duncannon, I must confess that it brought with it an additional recommendation, coming as it did with the sanction of an authority whose improvements in the Parks, and other places, it is impossible to see without approving of his taste and judgment. I think, moreover, that where there are six kitchen gardens there cannot be a question as to the propriety of consolidating them. Such a course is surely desirable in the light of a mere question of economy. To defray the expense of consolidation, a portion of ground is to be let for building. This is ground, it is to be observed to which the public now have not access. It is not subject to the Administration of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests. It is ground that has been in private occupation of the Crown—devoted to horticultural purposes, and from which the public has hitherto been excluded. I admit that it is a different thing retaining the grounds as gardens, and applying them to building purposes; but then the public never have had access to them, and the applying the ground to building, is for the purpose of meeting the expenses of the consolidation. It is on the whole, an arrangement that is desirable, and will prevent the necessity of applying to the public to defray the expense necessary, in consequence of the projected change.
Mr. Ewartunderstood that the persons in the neighbourhood were exceedingly anxious that the ground should be opened to the public, instead of being devoted to building [hear, hear]. He was glad to hear that the opening of the Regent's-park was consummated. He wished to take advantage of the opportunity to call attention to the fact that there was a large park at Kew that was only open two days in the week; and as to Richmond-park, he asked why persons in gigs and carriages should not have the right of driving through it. It would be most desirable to
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the middle classes of society if this were done. He also wished to call attention to Bushey-park, where there was a handsome fountain, that he thought it would be well to have restored to the former purpose for which it was intended.
Sir T. Fremantlesaid, he would give his attention to the subject referred to by the hon. Member.
Leave given, bill brought in and read a first time.

FROGMORE HOUSE AND GARDENS.
Upon the motion of Sir Thomas Fremantle, the House resolved itself into a committee, Sir George Clerk in the Chair, to consider of annexing the main House, Garden, and grounds, at Frogmore, now a part of the land revenue of the Crown, to Windsor Castle. In the committee a resolution was proposed, to the effect that it was expedient Frogmore-house and Gardens should be annexed to Windsor Castle. Resolution agreed to. The House resumed, report to be received on the next day.
Adjourned.