Sitting of 4 October 1841

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a second time:—Exchequer Bills Funding; Exchequer Bills Appropriation:—Read a third time:—Expiring Laws.
Petitions presented. By the Earl of Radnor, from Hand-loom Weavers of Manchester and vicinity, praying for relief.—By Lord Brougham, from Dunstable and Dublin, for the Repeal of the Corn-laws—By the Earl of Radnor, from Slockport, for Free-trade.—By Lord Clifford, of Chudleigh, from Mr. Peter Gordon, complaining of Oppression in India.—By the Marquess of Normanby, from Performers of the Surrey Theatre, for the abolition of Bridge Tolls.

RECENT NAVAL PROMOTIONS.
The Earl of Mintobegged the indulgence of their Lordships for a few moments while he called their attention to a subject which he felt to be one of importance, as relating to one great branch of the public service, and also important to the character for fairness and impartiality of the late

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Board of Admiralty. His attention bad been caught by a notice of motion which stood on the votes of the other House of Parliament for Friday last. The motion was "For a return of all the commissions (with the names attached) signed by the Board of Admiralty since the 4th of June last, up to the issuing the patent of the present Board of Admiralty, distinguishing those commissions signed since the 30th day of August." Also, a "Return of the ships put in commission during the same period, making a like distinction, and of the probable date of each ship being ready for service." Those returns he would say were unnecessary, as the whole of the information thus sought was already before the public in another shape. The returns, though not tending to add to the information already before the country, were, however, calculated to give countenance to certain charges which had gone forth to the public against the late Board of Admiralty, as to their mode of distributing navy patronage. Now, there was no subject connected with the administration of naval affairs which he should more desire an examination of, than the question of patronage. If any favour were shown, he thought that it ought to be exercised sparingly, and in such a manner as to show that no disparagement was meant to the meritorious services of others. He would admit, that large promotions had taken place in true navy of a recent date, and he would explain how that occurred. He would premise that promotions were made in three ways. First, in the ordinary course, when three vacancies took place by death in a particular rank, the promotion of one officer to that rank took place as of course, and this was the usual and common way of promotion. Secondly, flag-officers appointed to vacancies on the stations under their command, and might make certain appointments on hauling down their flags. The third way was by a special minute of the Board in consideration of circumstances which, in the judgment of the Board, required such an expression of its approbation of the conduct of the officer. With respect to the amount of promotions in the first way, he was not responsible for it, but for the distribution only. With regard to the second, he was not responsible at all; but with regard to the third, he held himself entirely responsible both for the amount of promotion and the manner of bestowing it. There
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had been, he admitted, lately an unusual amount of promotion. With respect to those of the first kind it was usual to keep a certain number of vacancies in reserve, and the promotions, in consequence of the operations in Syria, had led to a larger reserve than usual, so that there had been a short time ago a greater accumulation of vacancies to be filled up than at any time since he came into office. The House would probably not allow him, if he felt disposed, to go minutely into the promotions which had been lately made to some of these vacancies, because it would be a bad precedent to subject (particularly appointments) to minute criticism in Parliament. He could only say, that, with respect to the first class of promotions, for the amount of which he was not responsible, he would court inquiry into its distribution, into the character of those officers who had been promoted, and he was confident that such inquiry would show that those promotions had been well and impartially bestowed. In the third class there had" been several promotions. There had been twenty-five mates promoted to the rank of lieutenants, and of these none had been less than nine years in the service, while of sixteen, the junior had not served for less than twelve years. He was anxious to call the attention of their Lordships to these facts, as they served to refute the charge so often made, that young men were promoted by the Admiralty, to the exclusion of older and more experienced officers. He was sure, for the reasons he had stated, that their Lordships would not require him to enter into a detail of the circumstances of each of those twenty-five promotions; but with respect to some of the special promotions, he did think it necessary to go somewhat into detail. There were four officers promoted from the rank of commander to that of captain, under special circumstances. The first of these was Commander Crozier, of the Terror, who had the command of one of the two ships engaged in the expedition to the Arctic Pole, under Captain James Ross. Their Lordships were aware of the success which had attended that expedition. On the return of Captain Ross he laid before the Admiralty Board an account of the voyage and its results, and, after slating how much he was indebted to the officers and men under his command, took the opportunity of most strongly and earnestly recommending Captain Crozier

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and his first lieutenant of the Erebus, for promotion, with which recommendation the Admiralty complied. The next of the four officers promoted to the rank of captain, was one in whom he could not say he did not feel a deep interest—he was Commander C. Elliot, of the Hazard, who had been employed on the coast of Syria, and for his conduct there had been most strongly recommended for promotion. The promotion did not then take place, because he had not then served out his full time; but he was sure that had that time not expired until now, the noble Lord now at the head of the Admiralty, would not have passed over the recommendation. The third officer promoted to the rank of: captain was Commander Granville, who: was recommended for promotion by Sir C. Adam on his being appointed to the command of a foreign station. It had; been the practice at the Admiralty that any member of the Board who accepted a command on a home or foreign station, was allowed to recommend an officer of each rank. The practice had had the sanction of Lord Melville, Sir George Cockburn, and Sir James Graham. Under such circumstances Commander Granville had been promoted, on the recommendation of Sir C. Adam. The fourth officer promoted was Commander John Parker, and he owed his promotion to a rule in the service—as the senior commander on active service. He next came to the cases of the nine lieutenants who had been promoted to the rank of commander. The first of these was Lieutenant Scot, who had served with great distinction in the Turkish fleet under Admiral Walker, and who bad been most particularly recommended by the Turkish Government to her Majesty for some mark of her approbation. Now, it certainly was very unusual to promote officers at the recommendation of foreign Governments, with whose forces they had served, and he (Lord Minto) had at first felt great doubts of the propriety of acceding to the request; but when he took into consideration the great services rendered on the coast of Syria by Lieutenant Scot, and that those services were rendered to a Government with which England was in close alliance, he did come to the conclusion that the promotion ought to take place. He would add, that Commander Scot was a member of a family strongly opposed to his (Lord Minto's) in local as well as
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general politics. The next was Lieutenant Bird, who was the first lieutenant of the Erebus, as he had mentioned before. Lieutenant Lloyd, who was omitted in the Syrian promotions; Lieutenant Sherningham, one of the ablest surveying officers in the service; Lieutenant Fanshawe, who was recommended by Sir R. Stopford, were also made commanders. Again, Lieutenant Lowe was the nephew of Sir Thomas Hastings, an officer to whom he considered the country so much indebted for his valuable services, that he (Earl Minto) felt it but justice to him before he retired from the Admiralty to leave on record a minute, mentioning his great zeal and ability in improving the practice of naval gunnery, by which that arm of the service had been rendered incalculably more efficient, and as a mark of the services of Sir Thomas Hastings, his nephew, Lieutenant Lowe, was promoted to the rank of commander, and Mr. Moorman, the senior gunnery mate, to the rank of lieutenant. In conclusion, the noble Earl observed, that there had always existed an impression, a very erroneous one, that political influence had more weight at the Admiralty than it ought to have; and, in fact, then it ever had had. For his own part, he would confidently appeal to the appointments which had recently, and, he might add, for many years, been made by the Admiralty, for full proof that the impression to which he alluded was altogether erroneous.
Subject at an end.

FINANCIAL MEASURES—LATE AND PRESENT ADMINISTRATIONS
On the motion that the Exchequer-Bills (Funding) Bill be read a second time.
Viscount Melbournesaid, he did not rise to offer any objection to this bill, or to the mode proposed for carrying its provisions into effect; for it appeared to him, that as soon as it was known that the Government had come to the determination that they would not, for the present, consider the financial state of the country— that they would not enter into any inquiry into its financial difficulties—that they would not adopt any of those measures which had been proposed by the late Government, or bring forward any measures with similar objects of their own—as soon, he repeated, as those determinations of the Government became known, it was impossible but that some such measure as

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that now before the Mouse, should have been proposed, and should have received the sanction of Parliament; knowing that there was a deficit in the revenue, and knowing that, in the opinion of Government, there was not sufficient time to consider the question of taxation, the only course that could be adopted was, as the deficit must be made up in some way, of borrowing or funding. He did not see any particular objection to the form in which it was done. He had, however, one objection to the plan, and that to be sure was a serious one—namely, that it had failed— that the Government had not succeeded in raising the money, or in funding their Exchequer Bills. He was the last man who would say anything calculated to have any injurious effect upon public credit; and he was very unlikely to say anything that could have such an effect; but, considering the language which the Government had held with respect to the finances of the country, and the state of the country, they should have taken care not to fail. They should have commanded success; and even if they had made a worse bargain, or had worse terms than the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, (and he rather feared they were actuated by some such motives,) they should have endeavoured to carry their point. In saying this, let hint not be misunderstood as objecting to the measure before them, but he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to what might be considered the manifesto or basis of the motion by the noble President of the Board of Trade, which had led to the late change in the Government. That speech had been characterised by his noble and learned Friend near him as a very able and eloquent speech; and he admitted it to be so; but, able as it was it was insufficient to support the superstructure which had been founded upon it. He did not deny its eloquence, but there were many able and eloquent speeches which were afterwards found to be very inconvenient. One great objection made in that speech was, that the late Government had never met the difficulties of the country, or grappled with its financial embarrassments in a fair, straightforward, and manly manner. They were accused of tampering with the finances by temporary expedients. Now, let him ask any of those by whom these objections were made, what was the measure now before the House but a tempo-
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rary expedient, an expedient worse than a loan, nay, an expedient so objectionable that even the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that it was so bad, that it ought not to be drawn into precedent? He did not object to it, but he thought that it was singularly inconsistent with the arguments used by noble Lords opposite on the "no confidence" amendment to the Address. It was strange that the very first step of the new Government should be as bad as any of those for which they had objected to the late Government. If Government were determined on taking the course they now pursued, they were not justified in making that motion. They had no right to call the attention of Parliament to the financial difficulties of the country, unless they were prepared to enter into the consideration of them with the view to the proposal of some remedy. Such a course was not necessary to their "no confidence" motion, for they might have carried that before or after, with or without argument, as they pleased. He repealed that they had no right to call the attention of Parliament to the financial difficulties of the country, unless they were prepared with an immediate inquiry into them. It was different with the late Government. With them the introduction of the subject was quite consistent, because they were prepared with measures to remedy the difficulties to which they had called the attention of Parliament; but it was not, he again said, fair of the new Government to bring on the subject, considering the arguments they had used against the course pursued by the late Government. On this subject he could not omit to notice what had been said for some time by men now very high in office against the measures of the late Government, and more particularly what had lately fallen from his noble Friend (the Earl of Ripon) on the same subject in a late debate in that House, who spoke of the necessity of considering the "immense financial difficulties in which the country was involved." Now, he must say that it was not fair, it was not correct, it was not proved, it was not just to the country, to say that it was involved in immense financial difficulties. He did not mean to deny that there were difficulties, but he did assert that they were not immense, and that it was a great over statement and exaggeration so to describe them. The state of the finances demanded to be considered seriously, and

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to be met energetically; but he repeated they were not in "immense difficulty," and considering the general state of the country, the amount of its revenue, its resources, and its strength, he must say that it was not wise or prudent to use that desponding tone in speaking of them, and that such language must have the effect of weakening those resources and of diminishing that strength. He freely admitted that there were difficulties to be met; but he begged leave utterly, distinctly, shortly, and emphatically—in words, which being short would be more easily understood, to deny that the late Government had delivered over the country, or any branch of its revenue, in a dangerous state, or its finances in immense difficulties, to its successors in office. His noble Friend (the Earl of Ripon) had said, that some decided, vigorous, and efficient scheme of Government was necessary, and then he came down with his own scheme, which had all the defects that had been attributed to those of the late Government, and this additional defect—that it added to the funded debt of the country, without making any provision for the interest, which was precisely the objection made by the noble Duke (Duke of Wellington) to the Government proposition for funding Exchequer Bills in 1838 or 1839, he did not remember which. The noble Duke had then said, that he did not object to the funding, but he did object to the not making some provision for the interest, and yet now he was a party to a measure to which the same objection would lie. He would not say, that the measure taken by the Government was wrong, but they were not justified in adopting it after the language they had held, and after the Address they had carried up to the foot of the Throne. What had they been called together for? and for what reason were they now about to separate without doing anything with reference to the great questions as to which the country looked for something to be done at the hands of the Government? If, as was said, the finances of the country were involved in immense difficulty, surely their condition ought to be an object of immediate consideration. What was it which they had to consider? There was no mystery in it—there was nothing which could prevent the subject from being well understood. They had to decide on one or other of two courses.
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The expenditure was found to exceed the income of the country. They must then either reduce the expenditure or raise the income. In the present state of the country he feared that they could not do the former, but that, on the contrary, an increased expenditure would be necessary — though he hoped it might not be so. But his noble Friend, (the Earl of Ripon) who seemed to fear that an increased expenditure would be necessary, proposed— what? An immediate consideration of the subject? No, but for time to consider it! For what did he require time? Was he looking for the philosopher's stone? or was he endeavouring to discover the transmutation of metals? If he was it was reasonable to ask for time, and he was ready to grant it; but, as he supposed that that was not the case, he saw no reason for deferring to a future day important matters which required immediate consideration. But why should his noble Friend defer a subject which he himself had assured their Lordships he had been considering for two years? Surely that was time enough to show at least that in the immediate consideration of it now he could not be said to be taken by surprise. The noble Duke thought that the lateness of the season of the year, and the consequent difficulty of securing a full attendance in the Houses of Parliament, would prevent the full discussion of the great, measures which would be brought under their consideration. Now, he could point out to the noble Duke a plan by which he could insure a full attendance. Let him only give notice of a motion relating to the importation of foreign corn, and he might rely upon it he would not lack a very full attendance in both Houses until that question should be disposed of. Again, let him say with respect to this bill, that he did not object to it. He was not so great a theorist in finance as others, nor was he so much afraid as others of the consequences of change; but be must say, that considering the language held by Ministers, and the important votes to which their objections had led, it was not a measure which they were entitled to propose.
The Earl of Riponwas always disposed to be amused when his noble Friend (the noble Viscount) chose to be jocular, and he was not the less so when his noble Friend's jocularity was directed against himself. He did not feel that he was

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called upon to enter into a justification of a speech which he had made on a former evening, and which his noble Friend might have replied to at the time, but which he now chose to notice, after many days' consideration. With respect to the bill before the House, he did not know in what degree his noble Friend was opposed: or favourable to it. He did object to it, and he did not; he
"Hints a doubt, and hesitates dislike."
Viscount Melbournedid not object to the bill.
The Earl of Ripon: His noble Friend; did not object to the bill; but there was one thing to which he did object, and in very strong language, too. He objected, that the measure was a failure. Now, he must deny, that it was a failure; for his right hon. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, though he had not raised all the money which he had first intended, had raised a million more than was sufficient to cover the deficit. But then his noble Friend contended, that the Government were not justified in bringing in such a measure as this, which all must admit, was a temporary expedient, on account of the amendment which they had moved to the Address. What was it, let him ask, which had called the attention of Parliament to the subject? Was it not the notice in the Speech from the Throne? The Government were bound to bring their measures forward, having had ample time to prepare them. But if other Gentlemen moved an amendment to the Address and carried it, did it follow, that they were at once to be prepared wish a whole batch of measures in opposition to those referred to in the Speech, or was an individual to be precluded from moving an amendment unless he was prepared to strike off at once a new system of commercial and financial policy? The idea was absurd, and no man knew, that it was so, better than his noble Friend. The present Government were, therefore, not liable to the reproach cast on them by his noble Friend. If, coming into office nearly at the beginning of September, they had undertaken to propound a whole scheme of finance and a revision from beginning to end of our whole commercial system, the country would have laughed at them as fools, or rejected them as madmen. It was easy for persons not practically acquainted with such matters
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to fall into such a mistake; but no person knew better than did his noble Friend, that no one part of our financial system could be touched without, directly or indirectly, affecting some great commercial, or manufacturing, or trading interest, and that one such interest could not be affected without in some degree affecting all the rest. It would not do, therefore, to take an isolated view of one part of the scheme of financial and commercial policy. It would be necessary to take a full, and comprehensive, and common-sense view of the whole. His noble Friend well knew, from his experience, that the science of Government, whether legislative or; executive, was, in fact, neither more nor less than a perpetually recurring struggle with difficulties. They might be got over or evaded for a lime, but they would again recur, and Government or Parliament would be perpetually called on to provide for their recurrence, and there was no surer way of being overwhelmed by them, than to rush with breathless haste into the adoption of great and extensive schemes of Government or legislation, without mature consideration. That, in his mind, was a sufficient justification for the course pursued by the present Government, and to have proposed any other, at the present time, and under present circumstances, would have been perfect madness. When his noble Friend talked of a loan, he must have been aware, that if Parliament had adopted the plan proposed by his Government, it could not have been carried out without the aid of a loan. There would have been no other way to cover the deficiencies of the year. The whole amount of the deficiency was 2,400,000 l., of which it was assumed, that 1,700,000 l. would be raised by the proposed alteration in the taxes or duties on certain articles. That scheme was, to say the least of it, doubtful, and he defied his noble Friend, or any man of business, to show, that if it had been carried into operation, it would be possible between this and April, 1842, to make up the deficiency without a loan. It had not been his intention to say what he had said; indeed, the outbreak of his noble Friend had been so unexpected, that him, to use his noble i Friend's own expression, like a clap of thunder,. If the present Government had taken the course which his noble Friend ' seemed to thing they ought to have taken, they would have deceived the people,

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which was the very last tiling a Government should be guilty of.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, he thanked the noble Lord for his suggestion of a scheme for procuring a large attendance in that House; but he would give the noble Lord his answer to his scheme; he never would announce to that House an intention which he did not entertain. He had no intention of bringing forward a scheme for the alteration of the Corn-laws; he had not the power of so doing; he had not sufficiently considered the subject to be able to bring forward any scheme for an alteration of the Corn-laws, and had, therefore, no intention of announcing one to the House; he, therefore, suggested to the noble Lord, that he should propose some other scheme for effecting his purpose. The noble Lord had referred to what he had said three or four nights ago, respecting the funding of: Exchequer bills, as brought forward by her Majesty's late Government at the time; being part of their annual system of finance. But the Government of this day, had to take up a system of finance, at the termination of the Session of Parliament, a Budget having been brought forward by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, showing a deficiency of 2,500,000 l. But 2,500,000 l. was by no means the only deficiency there was a large amount of arrears to be provided for, by some means or other. In addition to these, he understood, that when his right hon. Friend came to examine and see what was the real expenditure of the country, and what were the real demands upon the Treasury at the present moment, he found there were liabilities on account of the colonies, demands from the colonies upon England, Canada, and elsewhere, amounting to a very large sum, which had never been carried to account at all in the statement of the budget, and these had to be added to the 2,500,000 l. which had been carried to account. Besides this, if he was not misinformed, there were other matters which involved expenditure, and all these things must be considered before any Government could bring forward a financial statement, and say what would be the permanent expenditure of the country. He defied any one, under the circumstances, to come forward with a financial scheme of Ways and Means. These things must be well considered before such a scheme could be brought forward, including with the Ways and
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Means a provision for large arrears which had been left, the arrears of this year being unknown till the accounts had been examined, and also demands for the future expenses of the country in different parts of the world, the probable amount of which was not known up to this moment. These were matters which it was not his intention to discuss; but as the noble Lord had thought proper to attack the Government as he had done, they must defend themselves.
Lord Broughamhoped, from what had fallen from the noble Lord at the head of the Board of Trade, and the noble Duke, that they would, between the present and. next Session, apply their attention to a subject of great importance, and at an early period of the next Session come forward with a measure respecting the general state of our commercial policy.
Bill read a second time.

POOR-LAW COMMISSION.
On the motion of the Duke of Wellington, the House went into Committee on the Poor-law Commission Bill.
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, the object of the bill was, to continue the Poor-law Commission till the 31st of July next, otherwise it would expire at the end of the present year, in order that the Poor-law might be carried into effect.
Bill went through the Committee. House resumed. Bill reported.

POPULATION PAYMENTS.
House in a Committee on the Population Payments Bill.
Lord Wharncliffestated, that the object of the bill was the payment of the persons who had been engaged in taking the recent census.
Bill went through Committee.
House resumed.

CATHOLICS IN INDIA.
Lord Clifford,of Chudleigh, wished again to call the attention of Government to the condition of the Irish Roman Catholic priesthood in India. They did not receive the sanction and support to which their merits and utility entitled them, and the Roman Catholic soldiers of India were consequently deprived of that benefit which they derived from their presence—a benefit of such a nature, that on one occasion an undisciplined regiment had been brought to a perfect state of

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order and subordination by the five months' sojourn of a Roman Catholic priest.
Lord Ellenboroughwould not follow the noble Lord through his remarks, but he would tell him what he had done on the subject of the Roman Catholic priesthood in India, to which he had before called the attention of their Lordships. He had sent by the mail of that day, the first that had been dispatched since the speech of the noble Lord, letters to the Governor-general of India, as well as to the Governor of the Presidency of Madras, asking- for the fullest information on the subject; and he had himself written a letter to the collectoral magistrate of Madura, sending him the report of what had taken place in their Lordships' House on the former occasion, and demanding explanation of his alleged misconduct. The noble Lord had talked of the discipline of certain regiments in India. He was quite sure that there was not an undisciplined regiment in the Presidency of Madras, and he was equally sure that "their discipline had not been caused by any Roman Catholic priest. If he had understood the noble Lord he would not follow him, because it was not necessary; but he did not understand him, and so he could not.
Petition laid on the Table.
Adjourned.