Sitting of 18 March 1841

MINUTES.
Petitions presented. By Mr. Easthope, Mr. Scholefield, Mr. A. White, Mr. T. Duncombe, and others, from Leicester, Birmingham, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Glamorgan, Wilts, and other places, for the abolition of Church-rates, and the Release of Mr. Baines.—By Mr. H. Smythe, Mr. Grimsditch, Mr. G. Crewe, Mr, Evans, Mr. H. Berkeley, and others, from Colchester, Chester, Derby, Gloucester, and a great many other places, against the Poor-law Amendment Bill, and for Alteration of some of its Clauses.—By Mr. Bailey, from Chemists and Druggists of Sudbury, against the Medical Profession Bill.—By Mr. T. Duncombe, from Tavistock, for the release of Frost, Williams, and Jones, for the release of Mr. F. O'Connor; from Sheffield, for the repeal of the Corn.—By Colonel T. Wood, from Staines and Hounslow, against countenancing Idolatrous Worship in India.—By Mr. Round, from Dunmow, in Essex, to continue the Poor-law Commissioners for five years.—By Mr. C. Bruce, and Mr. H. Smythe, from Elgin and Somersetshire, against any further Grant to Maynooth College.—By Mr. Gillon, from Linlithgow, in favour of Free Trade.—By Colonel Perceval, from the Grand Jury of the Queen's County, and. by Mt, Archdall, from the

337
High Sheriff and Grand July of the county of Fermanagh in favour of Lord Stanley's Bill By Sir W. Somerville, from the Ulster Constitutional Association, in favour of Lord Morpeth's Bill.—By Mr. F. Maule, from Argyle and other places, against Church Patronage in Scotland.—By Mr. Hawes and Mr. Hume, from Socialists in Lambeth and Birmingham, for an inquiry into their principles.—By Lord Sandon, from Chemists at Liverpool, against the Medical Profession Bill.—By Mr. Mackinnon, from St Clement, Danes, and by Mr. Hume, from Medical Practitioners at Kilkenny, for Medical Reform.—By Mr. Hume, from Members of the National Chartist's Association, for the Release of Mr. F. O'Connor.—By Mr. Loch, from Wick, for the total repeal of the Corn laws.—By Mr. L. Bruges, Mr. Miles, and General Lygon, from Bath and Worcester, for Church Extension.

HARBOURS ON THE SOUTH-EAST COAST.
Mr. E. R. Ricesaid, that it might be in the recollection of hon. Members that two years ago a commission had been appointed to examine the harbours on the south-eastern coast, in consequence of an address which he bad had the honour to move in that House. After a survey of the coast the commissioners made their report in May, 1840, since which no steps had been taken in the matter. He assured hon. Gentlemen that in now moving for the appointment of a committee to consider that report, he wished, as far as possible, to divest himself of every consideration of a local nature, and to view the question, as he hoped the House, and ultimately the Government, would do, as one of great national importance materially affecting the honour and the security of this empire. When he first urged an inquiry, he was told that his proposal was too limited, and that it ought to be extended to other ports on the coast of this country; but he recollected very well that, in answer to this objection, it was stated by a gallant Officer, then Member for Devonport, that it was desirable to limit the inquiry, not because there was no necessity for the survey of other ports, but because in the narrow sea of the British channel, in consequence of the application of steam navigation, this country was most assailable. He would not, in support of his own views, quote any opinions, because a consideration of all the opinions was the object for which he sought the appointment of a committee. Every friend of humanity and of civilization must hope that peace would be long preserved, but he could not forget that the present French government, to which we were greatly indebted for the preservation of peace, had declared that a defensive policy, for the purpose of preventing foreign aggression, was the best means of preserving peace. Such was the distinct avowal pf M. Guizot, who said that "what we do,
338
and what Germany is doing, is with the view of preserving peace; when it becomes a duty to tranquillize both France and Europe, we must perform it by showing that we are opposed alike to the spirit of conquest and to the violation of our own territory;" and he (Mr. Rice) thought that those principles might be fairly adopted by this country. Yet whilst thus we were totally neglecting our own harbours, the French were actively engaged in improving theirs. A sum had been voted of no less than 5,600,000 l., the expenditure of which was to be extended over a period of ten years; for the improvement of the French harbours in the years 1837, 1838, and 1839, the sum of 2,600,000 l. was Toted, and in the year 1839, the Cherburg breakwater was nearly completed, 500 men being constantly employed upon it, and there were also 300 men employed in the improvement of the harbour at Dieppe. It was, too, a subject of great regret, and of just complaint, that our own harbours of refuge answered very imperfectly the object for which they were intended; the loss of life and of property was very considerable, and the subject required the most attentive consideration. Indeed, it was not too much to say that the present state of our harbours was a matter of national reproach, for when foreigners visited this country they naturally expected to find our harbours in some measure proportionate to our naval and commercial greatness; yet they found that our harbours were fit for little more than coasting vessels. On the south-eastern coast especially large sums of money were expended during the last war for other modes of defence, but very little was spent upon the harbours. Mr. Pitt, indeed, did entertain some extensive design, and if he had lived it might have been carried into effect, but nothing had really been done. The fault was, perhaps, to be ascribed to the fact that there was no permanent board in this country whose business it was to consider and recommend to the attention of her Majesty's Government such objects as they might really think of national importance. There was only one other objection that could be urged by the Government against his proposition, and that was on the ground of expense. That was a legitimate object for Government to consider, and it was a point on which it was no part of his duty to offer a suggestion; but he might observe that of all the branches of public expenditure, that for which the House granted the

339
money most readily, and that for which the nation contributed most freely, was a grant for the maintenance of our naval superiority. He might affirm that better harbours on the south-eastern coast were not only necessary for our public navy but for our commercial marine. He would only allude further to the conclusion to the French report on the grant of the 5,600,000 l. in which it was admitted that—.
"This sum is certainly a considerable one, but when we reflect that the object is to ensure the facilities of our commercial intercourse, to assist the progressive increase of our mercantile and naval services, and consequently place the power and the prosperity of the country on a wide and Arm basis, undoubtedly it will be foreseen that these sacrifices will create sources of ample compensation."
With regard to the object of the committee, he would only say, that his desire was to place the subject fairly before her Majesty s Government, for it was a question on which he thought no individual Member of that House ought to call upon the House to take any steps; but it was still one of so much importance that be had felt it his duty to call the attention of hon. Members to it; and after a report had been presented by the commissioners to the House, it was not asking too much to request the House to agree to the motion of which he had given notice, and appoint—
"A select committee on the state of the harbours on the south-eastern coast, to whom the report of the commission of 1840 shall be referred."
Mr. Plantabegged leave to second the motion, which he did with the greatest cordiality, because he considered that the general interests of the country were materially involved in this question. It was no party question, and he trusted that it would be considered by both sides of the House in a spirit of fairness, and that it would receive that attention which its importance demanded. It was very seldom that he trespassed upon the House, and he WQUM endeavour to do so now for as short a time as it was possible for him to state the substance of the case. In.seconding this motion it was not necessary that he should go through the details which had been stated by his hon. Friend that night, and which he had also stated two years ago on the motion for the appointment by the Crown of the commissioners. Still he must say that the same reasons which existed two years ago for the appointment of
340
that commission existed now for the examination of the report, much increased in. deed in force by subsequent events; and he therefore hoped that her Majesty's Government would not refuse to appoint a committee now, after they had appointed the commission. He was sorry to add, that the feeling of those who were most interested in this question was, that the inquiries of the commissioners had not very materially promoted the wishes and intentions of those who had sought the investigation. He was the last man who would presume to say anything, or to make the slightest observations against the respectable commissioners who had signed the report, and who were every way fitted for the office the duties of which they had discharged. Still he must be allowed to say, that, as far as any practical results were concerned, none had flowed from the report of the commissioners. He was perfectly aware that it was wrong upon a question of this sort to press particular interests, or to lay stress on the wishes of a particular locality; yet he must observe, that he conceived it to be the duty of the representatives of the people in that place to make known, as far as they could, the wishes and interests of their constituents, because he thought that, if hon. Members would follow this course, they would obtain the aggregate of opinions, from which Parliament would be able afterwards to adopt the proper measures. Those who had sent him to that House had a particular anxiety for the establishment of proper harbours on the south-eastern coast. There had been constant meetings during the last two or three years of the inhabitants of the town he had the honour to represent; the unremitting endeavours of the people of Hastings had been to find fit havens on this coast; their attention was still directed to the subject, and their wishes were as strong as ever. Only a few days ago, on the 1st of March, a public meeting in contemplation of his hon. Friend's motion was held at Hastings, over which the mayor presided. They unanimously resolved—
"That this meeting is decidedly of opinion that the appointment of a committee in the House of Commons to investigate into the condition of the present harbours on the southeastern coast, and to report to the House whether any, and which of them, can be made available as places of shelter for merchant vessels in case of distress from weather, or from enemies cruising in time of war: and also to inquire and report whether it may be expedient to construct harbours of moderate capa-

341
city for such purposes at any other places between the mouth of the Thames and Selsey Bill, is essentially and urgently necessary."
And then having resolved to address their Members, requesting them to attend and support the present motion, they said, that they trusted there would be a full inquiry before the committee into the fair claims of Hastings. These were the principal reasons which had induced him to trouble the House upon that occasion. He did most sincerely believe that the question was not only of great importance to the place which he had the honour to represent, but also to the country at large. He thought that the report which had been received had not materially assisted the object which had been in view, and he was of opinion that the subject should undergo the fullest consideration of a committee of that House, to which the report of the commissioners could be referred, and before which other information could be collected, so as to show what would most promote the common object, to satisfy the wishes and desires of his constituents, and to see what the Government and the House would be able to do to provide places of safety for our public and mercantile marine,
The Chancellor of the Exchequercould assure the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that no apology was necessary from him for calling the attention of the House to a subject of so great importance as the present, whether as regarded local interests, or the commercial interests and prosperity of the country. He felt, however, that the right hon. Gentleman, as well as the hon. Member who had preceded him, had left one part of the subject to which they referred very unsatisfactory before the House, because, although they had dwelt upon the general question, they had advanced very few arguments why a committee should be appointed to take the matter into consideration. If the hon. Member for Dover had come forward with a resolution which embodied the propositions which he desired should be adopted by the House, his motion might have been entitled to some consideration; but he had placed no statement before the House from which his exact ultimate views might be collected. With regard to the proposition which he had made, that a committee should be appointed, he confessed that he thought that that was a motion which ought not to be complied with. A commission had last year been appointed to
342
inquire into the same subject which was now before the House; and upon arguments which were then employed, but to which he need not now more particularly allude, it was then resolved, and indeed it was admitted, that it was better to refer the matter to a commission than to a committee of this House. The commission had reported on the very same objects, so far as he could understand the meaning of the proposition which was now made, and their report was entitled to the fullest and best consideration of the House, as it was made by individuals who, from their station, were the most competent t6 form a correct judgment. No committee of the House, at all events, he thought, could have a better opportunity of forming a correct opinion than that commission; and it would certainly require a very strong case to be made out to show that any further investigation by a commerce would be expedient. Independently of other considerations, he thought that it would not be a very wise thing, nor of any advantage to the country, that a committee should be appointed who should enter into a detailed inquiry as to the defences of the commissioner. They would, of course, call before them men of experience and knowledge, and would examine them upon all those points which were the weak points of the country, and that the testimony derived from them should then be published, so that all that was the least desirable to be known should be made notorious to foreign countries who it was not desirable should be acquainted with the facts which were disclosed. But he must also beg to point out, that if such a committee were to be nominated, many hon. Gentlemen possessing local interests and local influences must "be put upon it; and knowing, as they did, what excitement matters of this description created in the vicinity immediately interested, that one hon. Member would advocate the selection of Dover as the favoured port, while another would select Hastings, and another would never be satisfied until Sandwich was fixed upon, they could hardly be induced, he thought, to adopt a course which was likely to be productive of so much inconvenience. The appointment of a committee, therefore, he thought, would be one of the worst things that could be done. He admitted, and he might refer to some conversations which he pad had with certain individuals upon the subject, that there was one point in the report to which he bad alluded which might be

343
supposed to be involved in some degree of doubt. He meant the expense which would be necessarily incurred in carrying out the proposed plans of improvement. It had been suggested to him that the expenses would not be a quarter so much as it had been stated they would be. The commissioners had reported that the probable expense of forming or improving each harbour would be about two millions; and certainly if any fair reason were given to the Government to lead them to suppose that it could be shown that the expense would be so much less than had been suggested, he should be most agreeably surprised. If that were the object with which the committee was to be appointed, he thought that it could be effected at a much smaller expense by the officers of the Government than by an inquiry before a set of gentlemen whose local interests would undoubtedly clash in the matter. Under these circumstances, upon the assurance which he gave, that if he were furnished with information to the effect which he had pointed out, it should be inquired into by the Ordnance, or some other proper department. He trusted that the hon. Member would not press his motion, as he was unwilling that the House should come to a division.
Mr. Mackinnonsaid, in answer to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that having been requested by several engineers to present the petition on the subject, and not having an opportunity of so doing, he must say a few words in answer to the right hon. Gentleman in alluding to these petitions. The right hon. Gentleman said, he was against a committee because the mover and seconder had only given general statements, and made no particular case, and if a committee was granted the weak parts of the coast might be mentioned, which might be injurious to the country. Now, in answer, he (Mr. Mackinnon) would observe, that no necessity existed for giving instructions to the committee to inquire into the defenceless parts of our coasts that might be left to the commission, but if some particular case was required, he would state as follows. On the coast of Sussex, and he believed also on the coast of Kent, there was a constant flow of shingle on the beach from west to east. Every one who had attended to the subject knew, that there were two sorts of harbours artificially made for vessels; one was the back water harbour, made by the water flowing in, which water was enclosed in an interior basin, and at the ebb was let out, and by
344
running through the outer harbour cleared it of mud and sand, but what was the result? Why this substance was met by the shingle outside, and a deposit took place at the mouth of the said harbour, forming a bar, such for instance as might be seen in the harbours of Dover and Ramsgate, which would render those harbours nearly useless in a few years, and all the immense expense—all the thousands and nearly millions expended on them, particularly Ramsgate—would be thrown away. The other description of Harbour was that formed like those at Dunleary and Kingstown, in Ireland, which were made not only useful at high but at low water, in fact useful at all times, being made in deep water. These harbours might be more expensive in their formation, but being more durable were cheaper in the end than the others. Now he would ask the right hon. Gentleman—he would ask the House—why not have a committee, if only to ascertain the above mooted question, which might save millions to the country, whilst the expense of a committee was in fact nothing whatever. If a number of Gentlemen in this House fond of science wished to ascertain a particular point on a question deemed doubtful, yet most important, why should it not be allowed. No harm could arise, and some benefit, perhaps a great advantage, might be the result. He would therefore support the motion.
Captain Pechellsaid, he could only approve of that part of the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which acknowledged the importance of the subject as regarded the maritime interests of the country, and that the objections raised by the right hon. Gentleman were by means sufficient to deter the hon. Member for Dover from persevering in the course he had commenced. Much information would be brought before a committee which had been kept back from the report. The civil engineer, who had been attached to the commission, would be called on to give additional evidence on points which required further investigation as to the expense and construction of the deep water harbours on the southern coast. Since the report of the commission had been laid on the table, the coasts of Sussex and Kent had been visited by the most furious storms, attended by the most disastrous loss of life and property; and it could be shown before a committee, that all three shipwrecks took place on the coast to the westward of Beechy Head, owing to the difficulty of

345
weathering the promontory in southerly gales. The financial objections raised by the right hon. Gentleman were common to all Chancellors of the Exchequer; but when proposals were made by the hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford, for granting no less an amount than eight millions for the purposes of Church extension, it could not be deemed unreasonable to ask for one-fourth of that sum for so desirable an object as that of preserving the lives of so many of her Majesty's subjects, which were so much endangered on the southern coast for the want of sufficient harbours.
Mr. Darbythought the report of the commissioners, which he held in his hand, fully justified the motion of his hon. Friend, the Member for Dover. The commissioners reported, that Ramsgate harbour was the best on the south-eastern coast, although they said it had no natural advantages. It had no backwater, nor was it protected from any wind but a land-wind. It offered no protection from winds from the sea. Yet that was the only harbour for the protection of the shipping on that coast. It was acknowledged to be wholly inadequate, yet the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer refused a committee. He refused a committee—was he prepared to say, that the Government would act upon the report of the commissioners? He acknowledged that harbours were necessary—would he say, that the Government would construct them? If he was not prepared to say so, why refuse inquiry? Could the hon. Member put his hand upon the report, and show anything in it so practical, that that it could be carried into execution within half a century? And if not, the commissioners were at a loss to known on what grounds they should report. He thought there could be no stronger reason for assenting to the motion.
Sir George Stricklandregretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not expressed himself more distinctly on this most important subject. The question was whether our harbours were to be repaired by public expense or by local exertions. If an idea got abroad that every case of shipwreck was to be a ground for a grant of public money for repairing our harbours, from that moment all individual exertion would cease. A few years ago there had been a great contest, in a Committee of the House, whether certain harbours required the assistance of the public purse, but it was at last decided that they had no sufficient claim, though a similar claim on
346
the part of two other harbours was allowed. The country ought to know at once whether any aid would be afforded by the Government, or the Government ought to take all harbours of refuge under their especial care.
Mr. Plumptrethought his hon. Friend the Member for Dover was perfectly justified in the course he had adopted. He would have been perfectly willing to have left the matter in the hands of the Government, if it had been stated that they intended doing anything; but having heard no such statement, he must support the motion.
Mr. C. Woodthought the House must see that the question which had been stated by the two hon. Gentlemen who raised the discussion was very different from that which had been discussed. The question argued was that the country ought in some way or other to provide harbours of refuge on different parts of the coast. The committee moved for was to inquire into that which had already been inquired into. The Commissioners had distinctly expressed an opinion upon the subject, and the best answer to local interests was that they had given a decided opinion against any existing harbour. In their report they stated,
" It is evident there is no harbour at the present moment between Sheerness and Selsey Bill which can he considered an available harbour of refuge at all times of tide, or which possesses the capability of being rendered efficient for that purpose by any improvement or alteration that can be made."
The Commissioners then proceeded to consider how an efficient harbour might be made, and they stated that the most important situations which called for the attention of the Government and the country were these—the first was at Dover, the second at Beachy Head, and the third at the mouth of the Thames. The question, therefore, was, whether the Government were prepared to take up one of these places; but he did not see in what respect further or more detailed information could be obtained. In the same way, if any private company was induced to construct the harbour, they could employ their own engineer; but, so far as any general views of the subject were concerned, he thought the fullest information was contained in the report.
Sir Robert Peeldid not see the advantage to be derived from the appointment of committee to review the decision of the commissioners, who had already reported to.

347
the House. Those commissioners were intimately acquainted with the subject upon which they had to determine, and were beside able and impartial, If a committee were appointed, one of two evils must arise—either the House must admit the representatives of local interests or they must exclude them. If they excluded them, why should the committee be better able to form an opinion than the commissioners who had sat last year? If they admitted them, he feared that it would be any thing but an harmonious committee. It would be a battle for the views of the constituencies, and he certainly should be very much surprised if the right hon. Gentleman should be convinced of the superior advantages of Dover for the purposes pointed out. It would be a conflict of local interests; and it would be better to let the decision of the commission remain unreviewed by a committee of the House. For his own part, he did not see the advantage of the Government declining, under any circumstances, to build a harbour; but he was equally opposed to the principle of the employment of local exertions; unless they were properly directed the effect would be, a great expenditure of money, without any real good. The question, he thought, must in the end rest with the Government; and his belief was, that in order to do anything effectual, they must make a large expenditure. Supposing they determined to make a harbour of refuge in the Channel, the Government should declare their readiness to expend 2,000,000 l. or l,500,000 l., and calling the commissioners of the Board of Ordnance, should say, "Tell us what is the locality where a harbour of refuge may be best formed," and then he should advise that it should be constitututed on a really effectual scale, and in a manner which should render success certain. But he was bound to say, looking at the present state of the expenditure of the country, he could not press upon the Government the too hasty adoption of ft measure, which, however advantageous it might be, would involve a vast expense.
Mr. Ricewould be prepared to show, if they went into committee, that the expense would not be one-fourth the amount estimated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The House divided on the question that a select committee be appointed to take into consideration the state of the harbours on the South Eastern coasts—Ayes 38, Noes 102: Majority 64.

List of the AYES.

Bailey, J.

Miles, P. W. S.

Bailey, J. jun.

Neeld, W.

Boldero, H. G.

O'Brien, S.

Broadwood, H.

Pease, J.

Burr, H.

Pechell, Captain

Cochrane, Sir T. J.

Plumptre, J. P.

Darby, G.

Rumbold, C. E.

Duncombe, T.

Sheppard, T.

Fitzroy, H. H.

Smythe, hon, G.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Grimsditch, T.

Wakley, T.

Hodges, T. L.

White, A.

Hodgson, F.

Wilmot, Sir J. E.

Hodgson, R.

Wilshere, W.

Hollond, R.

Wodehouse, E.

Hope, G. W.

Yates, J. A.

Howard, F. J.

Young, Sir W.

Jones, J.

Lemon, Sir C.

TELLERS.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Rice, E. R.

Mackinnon, W. A.

Planta, rt. hon. J.

List of the NOES.

Adam, Admiral

Hutt, W.

Alston, R.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Baldwin, C. B.

Johnson, General

Baring, rt. hn. F. T.

Labouchere, rt. hn. H.

Barnard, E. G.

Lascelles, hon. W. S.

Bewes, T.

Lowther, J. H.

Blake, W. J.

Lushington, C.

Bolling, W.

Lushington, rt. hn. S.

Botfield, B.

Marsland, H.

Broadley, H.

Martin, J.

Brocklehurst, J.

Maunsell, T. P.

Brodie, W. B.

Miles, W.

Brotherton, J.

Morgan, O.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Morpeth, Viscount

Busfeild.W.

Morris, D.

Campbell, Sir J.

Muskett, G. A.

Canning, rt. hn. Sir S.

Nicholl, J.

Davies, Colonel

O'Connell, J.

Divett, E.

O'Connell, M.J

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Packe, C. W.

Drummond, H. H.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Duke, Sir J.

Philips, M.

Dundas, C. W. D.

Pusey, P.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.

Ellis, W.

Rawdon, Col. J. D.

Ewart, W.

Rolleston, L.

Gladstone, J. N.

Rundle, J.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Russell, Lord J.

Graham, rt. hn. Sir J.

Salwey, Colonel

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Scholefield, J.

Grimston, Viscount

Seymour, Lord

Halford, H.

Smith, R. V.

Hastie, A.

Somerset, Lord, G.

Hector, C. J.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Herbert, hon. S.

Stanley, Lord

Herries, rt. hon. J. C.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Hope, hon. C.

Stewart, J.

Howard, P. H.

Stuart, Lord J.

Howard, hn. C. W. G.

Stuart, W. V.

Howick, Viscount

Strickland, Sir G.

Hume, J.

Strutt, E.

Humphery, J.

Style, Sit C.

349

Tancred, H. W.

Warburton, H.

Teignmouth, Lord

Wilbraham, W.

Thornley, T.

Williams, W.

Trotter, J.

Wood, C.

Tufnell, H.

Wood, G. W.

Turner, E.

Wood, B.

Verney, Sir H.

Worsley, Lend

Vivian, J.H.

Wyse, T.

Vivian, J. E.

TELLERS.

Vivian, rt. hon. Sir R. H.

O'Ferrall, M.

Parker, J.

CAPTAIN LAROCHE.
Mr. Alston Mr. Alston moved, that the petition of Captain Laroche R.N., be referred to a Select Committee. He regretted being compelled to occupy the time of the House with this case, but he thought he should be able to show that it was one of severe injustice, and that every endeavour having been made to attain redress without success; there was no alternative but an appeal to Parliament. Captain Laroche during twenty-five years of active service commanded twelve ships of war with great success; and obtained the approbation of Lord Hood and Sir Hyde Parker. At the siege of Toulon he defended a floating battery till it was almost utterly destroyed and himself severely wounded. Subsequently, when chief of the observing squadron off home, he captured two privateers, which had been running throughout the war to the great injury of the merchants, and for this service he received the thanks of Lord Keith. In 1807 when in the command of the Uranie frigate, Captain Laroche was employed to blockade the Port of Cherbourg which service he performed though with very inadequate means. Nevertheless on being relieved from this station, he was brought before a court-martial, for not doing his utmost to bring to action and destroy a frigate and brig, then lying in the harbour of Cherbourg. He (Mr. Alston) had read the evidence adduced before this court, and he must say it appeared to him most vague and contradictory. Notwithstanding this, however, and notwithstanding the remarkable fact that the prosecutor (Lieutenant Morisson) did not join the ship until the 19th of May, four days after the events on which his charges were founded the court decided that those charges were partly proved, and sentenced Captain Laroche to be dismissed from the command of his ship. It Was impossible any one should suppose, than an officer selected by Lord Hood for the command of a floating battery, constantly employed by Sir Hyde Parker in all cases of difficulty, and whose
350
services had obtained the thanks of Lord Keith, could have failed, (if he did fail) from want of courage and zeal. But, it could be shown that he did not fail, that with most inefficient means he did all that man could do; and consequently that the judgment of the court, however conscientiously given, was erroneous. On receiving a sentence so terrible to the feelings of a British sailor, and confident of his innocence, Captain Laroche addressed two letters to Lord Mulgrave, then first Lord of the Admiralty, begging for a revision of his case, and commenting strongly an the injustice of his treatment. The Board of Admiralty considered, however, that these letters were of an intemperate and improper character, and threatened that unless they were withdrawn steps should be taken to prevent Captain Laroche being again employed. Unfortunately, though he offered to apologize on the objectionable passages being pointed out to him, he did not withdraw the letters, and well had die threat been executed; not only had Captain Loroche been suspended for thirty-three years from the active duties of his profession; but in the successive promotions which had taken place his name had been passed over, and he now found himself in his 74th year with this cruel imputation still resting on his name. It was most important to prove that the sentence of the court had not been the cause of this severe treatment; and he (Mr. Alston) would therefore read to the House the correspondence which took place in 1808 The hon. Member here read—
(Copy).
"Admiralty Office, 19th April, 1808.
"SIR,
" Lord Mulgrave having laid before my Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty year letter, addressed to his Lordship, of the 13'th inst., I have it in command to acquaint yon, that their Lordships observe With surprise, the very unbecoming reflections, and the many unfounded assertions contained therein, but, unwilling to take such measures as they conceive your conduct to merit, on this occasion, without first affording you an opportunity of reflecting on the impropriety thereof, they are pleased to give you leave to withdraw the said letter with a suitable apology for these highly indecent and groundless reflections on the Board of Admiralty, the Flag-officer commanding at Portsmouth, and the members composing the Court-martial, by whose sentence you were dismissed from the Uranie. Should you, however, not be disposed to avail yourself of this indulgence, their Lordships will proceed

351
without delay, to take such measures as the case may seem to require.
"I am, Sir,
"Your humble servant,
(Signed)
"W.W.POLE."
To Captain Laroche,
"No. 13 Princes-street, Cavendish Square."
Extract from Captain Laroche's Answer to Mr. Wellesley Pole's First Letter.
"I beg, in reply, to assure their Lordships, that it was by no means my intention to use language, or to introduce reflections in any way calculated to offend the Board of Admiralty, and if I have intentionally conveyed any expressions offensive to their Lordships, or to the Flag-officer commanding at Portsmouth, from the acuteness of my feelings under the mortifying and distressing circumstances of my case, it gives me sincere concern, and if any such expressions can be pointed out, I shall have real pleasure in apologising to their Lordships, and to that worthy and gallant officer, Admiral Montague, who was neither named, nor intended to be alluded to, far less reflected on by me."
" Admiralty Office, 17th May, 1808.
"SIR,
"I have received and communicated to my Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, your letter of yesterday, requesting to know if you may expect an answer to your letter of the 30th of April, and I am commanded to acquaint you, that their Lordships are of opinion it requires no reply. My Lords have directed me to signify to you, that in consequence of the very indecent reflections on your superior officers and the unfounded assertions contained in your letter to Lord Mulgrave, of the 13th of April, which letter you have thought proper (notwithstanding their Lordships' indulgence) to decline withdrawing, their Lordships have ordered a minute to be made on the records of the Admiralty, with a view to prevent your being again employed in his Majesty's naval service.
"And I am further directed to desire, that you will desist from addressing the Board on the subject of your Court martial. "I am, Sir," Your very humble Servant,
(Signed)
"W. W. POLE."
"To Captain Christopher Laroche."
Surely the House would be of opinion that the punishment had been more than commensurate with the offence. Yet all his applications for redress had been refused. He had seen officers who had actually been struck off the list, not only reinstated, but promoted to their respective flags; and it was only when he saw the whole body of retired officers removed to the active list,—and when in answer to his
352
renewed application, reasons had been assigned for its refusal utterly different from those given in 1808—that he had been advised to appeal to this House for that protection and redress which every man who had served his country was entitled to expect at their hands. In proof of the discrepancy in the reasons assigned by the Admiralty, the hon. Member here read,—
"Admiralty 24th Feb., 1841.
"SIR.
"Having laid before my Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty your letter of the 19th inst. requesting to be informed on what grounds or under what regulation, you were passed over by the then Board of Admiralty in the general promotion, I am commanded by their Lordships to acquaint you that they have no doubt that the reason you were passed over in the promotion you allude to, was from the circumstance of your having been dismissed from the command of the Uranie by sentence of Court-martial; the power of doing so being vested in the Board of Admiralty by the Order in Council then in force.
"I am Sir,
"Your very humble Servant.
"(Signed) I. BARROW,
"Captain Christopher Laroche."
And, to shew the estimation in which Captain Laroche was held by his brother officers—
"76 Grovesnor Street.
"18th March, 1841.
"MY DEAR LAROCHE.
"It will afford me much satisfaction if any testimonial of mine can be of service to you in obtaining the object of your memorial now about to be brought before the House of Commons; it is however a long time since we served together and then not for a very long period; but I have a most distinct recollection of the character you bore as an officer, seaman, and gentleman in the estimation of your Commander-in-chief, the late Sir Hyde Parker as well as the captains of the squadron generally serving, under his command on the West-India station, and of my own knowledge, I can in justice declare, that I never saw or heard of any part of your conduct as unbecoming an officer and a gentleman. "Wishing you every success,
"Believe me with great regard,
"Your ever truly,
"BLADEN CAPELL."
"West End, Southampton,
"25th Feb. 1841.
"MY DEAR LAROCHE,
"I have been absent from home; but immediately on my return I sit down to answer your letter of the 18th inst., 'requesting me to send you a few lines conveying my opinion

353
of your professional character.' This I can Jo easily and satisfactorily to your feelings.
"My opinion of you was formed at an early period of our naval career, when we served together for severals years, as lieutenants of the St. George and Britannia. Some part of this time I was the forecastle-lieutenant of your watch, we were almost constantly at sea, and I had good opportunities of having my own observations confirmed by the frequent remarks of the seamen amongst themselves on the forecastle, 'that you were a good officer, a good seamen, and that there was no fear of anything ever going wrong whilst it was your watch on deck, and the ship was in your charge.' I often noticed at such times how much confidence the Admiral used to place in you. This is fresh in my memory, although upwards of forty-five years ago, together with circumstances of no importance in themselves, but enough to have then made a favourable impression on my mind. These are bye-gone days, and there are few left to remember them; but if my reminiscence of them will be any consolation to you at this late period of our lives, most readily do I give it, with a further recollection, that according to my judgment at that time you were particularly zealous in your duties, and appeared to me always to have the good of the service at heart.
"Ever yours faithfully,
"WENTWORTU LORING."
"To Captain Laroche, R. N."
This then was the case of a gallant but ill-used officer who now entreated the interposition of the House; he did not ask for favour, but for justice. He courted the fullest and most searching inquiry, well satisfied he should be able to show how utterly unfounded were any imputations on his character. He (Mr. Alston) was aware that applications like the present were generally resisted on the ground that this House was not the proper tribunal of appeal, and that the admiralty was the only fitting judge; but with every respect for that board, he was not disposed to recognize it, as in all respects purely infallible. He did think that in the case of Captain Laroche, that board had acted erroneously, and he thought that this House, as the representatives of the people, were bound, as one of their first and highest duties, to give protection to all servants of their country, who it can be proved have not disgraced that service. He trusted that the House would so decide on this question as would give to a gallant old officer the opportunity of disproving all imputations upon his good name, and thus of soothing his few re-
354
maining years with the certainty of leaving behind him an honoured and untarnished name.
Sir Thomas Cochrane: I rise to give a direct negative to the motion of the hon. Member for Hertford. In doing so I beg to be understood as offering no opinion and passing no judgment upon the merits of the petition he advocates; my opposition is upon general grounds, and the full persuasion that the carrying such a motion is extremely injurious to the best interests of the naval and military service. Sir, long before I had the honour of a seat in this House, I observed with great regret the frequent attempts made to wrest from the Government of the day the executive power, and transfer it to this branch of the Legislature. Sir, such appeals, if successful, from officers or men of the army and navy, inflict a severe blow upon the discipline and efficiency of both services; they encourage those who ought to look up to the heads of their respective departments with trust and confidence in the idea that they are deficient either in skill or integrity, and that their complaints are not likely to receive a patient, an intelligent, or honest hearing anywhere but before a committee of this House. Sir, what reason is there to doubt that the Board of Admiralty would not do full justice to petitions, or what object could they have in withholding from him that redress to which he might be entitled? Sir I have no particular predilection for the present Board of Admiralty; I am opposed both to their principles and measures; but Sir, I will not do them the injustice, and I should ill acquit myself as a Member of Parliament, or as one belonging to the naval profession, if I did so, of allowing it to be supposed they could be guilty of preventing the course of justice between any individual under them and themselves. Then, Sir, under what pretence can the hon. Member for Hertford be induced to bring forward a motion for the purpose of submitting to a committee of this House a petition referring to matters that have gone by above thirty years? The petitioner was tried by the proper military tribunal, and if he had any fault to find with the sentence passed, upon him, surely that was the period to bring it forward, and not at this distance of time. Will the hon. Member allow me to ask, what course would he propose to himself in the event of obtaining his committee? for let me tell him, he must not he satisfied with the simple production of

355
the minutes of the court-martial (in itself a very strong measure); for, be it observed, Captain Laroche not only complains of his sentence, but of the combination against him among the witnesses. So this committee must call before them every living witness, and in fact hold a fresh court-martial upon Captain Laroche. Is he, then, (will the hon. Member allow me to ask) ready, as president of this committee's court-martial, to enter upon the investigation of Captain Laroche's conduct—is he ready to rip up the whole of the nautical transactions to which it must refer—is he prepared to investigate into, and decide upon, all the evolutions and nautical proceedings in which the petitioner's conduct is implicated; for if he is not prepared to do so, he does nothing. Why really, Sir, this proposed proceeding cannot but appear to any hon. Member but as extremely absurd, and at once show how improper and unsuitable it is to bring such questions before this House. Sir, I repeat, that the entertaining of such motions by this House is extremely detrimental to both services of the country, and are not to be listened to unless in such an extreme case as it is difficult to anticipate; they tend to insubordination, to unhinge men's minds, to cause dissent, and to lead both officers and men to rely upon others than those who are placed over them. It is with great pain I thus oppose any motion which an old brother officer thinks might be serviceable to himself, and who I think has been ill-advised in bringing forward this question. Nothing would give me more satisfaction than to have had it in my power to assent to any measure which might be the means of imparting consolation or gratification to him; but a strong sense of duty impels me to the present course, and while I repeat that I most carefully abstain from passing any opinion upon the merits of the case, I must give the motion my decided opposition.
Sir Charles Adamfelt great pain in being obliged to speak at all on the present occasion, and regretted much that the hon. Member had thought proper to bring forward the case. He lamented the position of an old officer who had, no doubt, done great service to his country, and he regretted to be obliged to enter into the details of the court-martial, in order to show that the Board of Admiralty at the time could not have done otherwise than it did. Captain Laroche had been commander of the Uranie, off Cherbourg, in May and
356
June, 1807, and for not taking proper steps to bring a French frigate to action at that period, he was charged by the first lieutenant of the vessel, who had only joined on the 19th of May previous, and who then found that the officers complained generally of the captain's conduct. After much consideration, the first lieutenant determined to prefer the charges against the captain. A court-martial was decreed, and after sitting three days, it sentenced captain Laroche to be dismissed from the command of the Uranie, stating that the charge was in part proved. The hon. Gentleman said that the charge should have been entirely proved; but the charges were distinct and separate, for not bringing the enemy's frigate into action, fox not having his ship in readiness, and for acting against the 10th, 12th, and 13th articles of war. After this court-martial, six months elapsed before captain Laroche made any representation to the Admiralty. When he did, there was every reason to: believe that the minutes of the court-martial had been examined, and he was then told that the Admiralty did not think it necessary to take any steps in the matter. Captain Laroche then wrote a most in- temperate letter to Lord Mulgrave, which the Admiralty gave him leave afterwards to withdraw, but which he refused to do. But in a letter which he afterwards wrote, he, in some measure, expressed, his regret, but concluded by repeating the very same offence. The consequence of this was, that the Admiralty made a minute that he should be no further employed in the King's service. There could not have been a fairer or more efficient set of officers than those who composed the court-martial that sat on Captain Laroche; amongst whom were Captain Irving, Captain the Hon. Courtenay Boyle, Sir George Stopford, and others of the highest reputation. Having received the answer of the Admiralty, Captain Laroche seemed to have allowed the matter to remain there. For many years he took no steps. After the general promotion, at which he, as being one of the senior captains, would have been advanced to be a flag officer, had he an unblemished character, Captain Laroche applied to the Board of Admiralty. The Order in Council specially limited the promotion to officers of unblemished reputation. He would ask, could any Board of Admiralty, when they were satisfied of the justice of the sentence of the court-martial, have promoted Captain Laroche? No further representation was

357
made until 1840, when a memorial was again sent into the Admiralty, recapitulating what had taken place at the court-martial, impugning the conduct of the officers, and again requesting to be promoted. Reference was again made to the records of the court-martial, and the present Board of Admiralty being of opinion that the sentence was just according to the evidence, they did, and could do, no otherwise than refuse the request of promotion, at the same time they stated the reasons which obliged them to obey that disagree., able necessity. This was the state of Captain Laroche's case, and though he much regretted to be obliged to state so much, he felt bound to oppose the motion of the hon. Member. He admitted that the House of Commons should be open to the complaints of every subject of the Queen; but he must at the same time say, that: when an appeal of this kind was made, it should be made out clearly before they interfered, and especially where a general court-martial had pronounced sentence.
Captain Pechellexpressed his surprise at the manner in which the gallant Officer, the Member for Ipswich, had met this question by volunteering the old official practice of the Lords of the Admiralty of the year 1837. He (Captain Pechell), could not conceive a more disagreeable or painful duty than that of being compelled to censure a brother officer; and he concluded, that nothing but a stern and rigid sense of duty could have tempted the; hon. Member to exercise his privilege in so summary a manner, without even giving the official authorities in the House an opportunity of explaining the course which they intended to pursue on this occasion. The hon. Member was one of those, who, in the late debate on naval affairs, complained of the insufficient manner in which our ships were manned, and of the inferiority of the weight of metal with which they were furnished, as compared to those in the navy of France; but be was unwilling in the case of Captain Laroche, to take into consideration the; circumstances under which that officer was placed when in command of the Uranie during the blockade of the port of Cherbourg, and this was a most important feature in the case as the enemy's ships were far superior in force to those which confined them within the limits of the port. In those days, hon. Members did not take into calculation the number of guns or men which the frigates of the enemy might
358
carry, they expected whenever a British frigate was brought into hostile collision with an enemy, that she would be able to give a good account of the business. He (Captain Pechell) therefore called upon the House to bear in mind, that Captain Laroche was employed on a most dangerous and difficult service in blockading a large French frigate and corvette in the port of Cherbourg, and that the ship he commanded was of vastly inferior force to that of the enemy, as was the little vessel which assisted him on this duty. It had been the practice of the French frigate and the corvette to make frequent demonstrations within the limits of the port, with the view of drawing and tempting Captain Laroche under the formidable batteries with which the coast is furnished, and it was on one of these occasions when the French frigate had ventured out a little further than usual, the Captain Laroche was blamed for not doing his utmost to bring the enemy to action, though it was well known that very great prudence was necessary not to risk the loss of his Majesty's ship, or her being crippled by the batteries, and then enabling the enemy to leave the port unmolested. Whatever might have been the opinion of those officers of the Uranie who gave evidence against their Captain; it was clear that the lieutenant in command of the brig (the consort of the Uranie) gave the most valuable testimony in favour of the exertions of the Uranie to close with the French frigate, so long as it was compatible with the safety of his Majesty's ship. Captain Laroche with his twelve pounders was opposed to the La Manche with eighteen pounders, and with a crew of nearly twice the number to those on board the Uranie; and it is a well known fact, that there is no record of an English frigate with twelve pounders having captured a French frigate with eighteen; but it is on record that a French frigate of eighteen pounders had triumphed over one of his Majesty's ships with twelve pounders, in the case of the Ville de Milan and the Cleopatra. The gallant Admiral (Adam) complained that the hon. Gentleman who introduced this motion had carefully kept back all that related to the engagement with the French frigate; now he (Captain Pechell) considered that the gallant Admiral had kept back the very important fact of Captain Laroche having maintained an effectual blockade of an enemy's port with a far inferior force, and that during that pe-

359
riod no vessel was permitted either to escape from, or to enter that port. These were circumstances which ought to be taken into consideration, when the character of an old and deserving officer was at stake. Undoubtedly, in those days, much more was expected from our ships than in justice should have been required, and it was such daring deeds as those of Lord Cochrane in Basque Roads, which led people to expect that similar risks might be always run without prejudice to the service. And it was very probable that if the French frigate off Cherbourg had been similarly situated to the enemy's ship in the Roads of L'Isle D'Aix, Captain Laroche might have earned those laurels which were so well bestowed upon the relative of the hon. Member for Ipswich, he (Captain Laroche) was placed on a dangerous shore without the benefit of anchorage, and, therefore, he would have engaged the enemy under every possible disadvantage. The gallant Admiral had also remarked, that Captain Laroche had neglected to prefer his claim for promotion for thirty-two years; but lie (Captain Pechell) considered the officer to have exercised a sound discretion by refraining to make an appeal to those authorities who had sanctioned his removal from the Uranie; but when a liberal Government, and as was supposed, a liberal Board of Admiralty, came into power, Captain Laroche considered that the time had arrived when justice would be rendered to his long services, and he was the more induced to prefer his claim at this time, when the favourable occasion of her Majesty's marriage and the birth of the Princess Royal, might afford a fair opportunity of placing an old and gallant Officer in that rank and station to which he was now fairly and justly entitled.
Mr. Alston,in reply, observed, that several officers had been dismised the service for offences of a very serious character, and yet were restored after a much shorter interval than had elapsed since the trial of Captain Laroche.
Motion withdrawn.

COLONIAL APPOINTMENTS.
Mr. J. O'Connell, in rising to move for certain returns, observed, that there was a feeling amongst the members of the Irish bar that they had not been fairly treated in reference to the judicial and other appointments which had been made in the colonies; of the appointments which had been made
360
during the last ten years, only five or six had been conferred on members of the bar of Ireland. The hon. and learned Gentleman then moved for returns of each British colony, dependency, or possession, in which, since the legislative union between Great Britain and Ireland, down to the present time, the office or offices of chief or other justice, or judge, or magistrate of any supreme or district court of law, equity or admiralty, or Attorney or Solicitor-general, has or have existed or been created; the name of each such office or offices in each such colony respectively, together with the date of creation; the name and salary of each person appointed to each such office, with the dates of each appointment; whether such person was, at the time of his appointment, a member of the bar of England, Ireland, or Scotland, and of which respectively.
Lord J. Russellsaid he must oppose the motion, as it would be impossible to give the information required as related to the members of the different bars of England, Ireland, or Scotland; a return as to the other particulars existed up to the year 1832.
Motion withdrawn.

CHURCH RATES—CASE OF MR. BAINES.
Mr. Easthopesaid that when, on a former night, he moved that the petition of Mr. Baines should be printed, he stated that it was not his intention, in bringing it under the consideration of the House, to go into the general question of the abolition of church-rates, but, as much as he possibly could do so, to confine himself to the grievance complained of by the petitioner. He was aware, and he was sure the House would be aware, that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to state the case of William Baines, who was now immured in prison for the non-payment of church-rates, without making some reference to that question; but he would redeem the engagement which he had made with the House, and keep as closely to the case of William Baines, and abstain from going into the general question as much as possible. This petitioner stated, that he was an inhabitant of St. Martin's, in the borough of Leicester, and
"That, on the 17th of May, 1838, the inhabitants of the said parish laid a church-rate of sixpence in the pound; payment of which rate, amounting to two pounds five shillings, was demanded of your petitioner, on the 13th of August, 1838, and was by him refused.

361
That your petitioner, besides having a conscientious objection to church-rates as such, objected to this rate in particular, as being, in his judgment, illegal; and that, when summoned before two of the borough magistrates, your petitioner disputed the validity of the rate, and required them to withhold giving judgment in his case; and the case was thereupon dismissed. That your petitioner received a 'citation' from the Arches Court of Canterbury, dated November 15, 1838, to which your petitioner gave no attention; that your petitioner was thereupon pronounced in contempt. That your petitioner was afterwards served with a 'decree to see further proceedings,' of which your petitioner took no notice. That your petitioner subsequently received a 'monition' for the payment of the rate and costs, amounting to 127 l 3s., which your petitioner declined to obey; and that, in consequence, a writ for the attachment of your petitioner's body was issued, June 6, 1839, from the Court of Chancery, on a significavit from Sir Herbert Jenner, official principal of the Court of Arches."
The petitioner went me to say,
"That your petitioner immediately applied to the Court of Queen's Bench for a rule nisi, on the grounds that the evidence given in the Court of Arches had been clandestinely taken, and that your petitioner ought to have been cited before the court of the bishop of the diocese: that the court granted the rule applied for by your petitioner, in consequence of which proceedings against your petitioner were stayed; that the case having been heard on the 27th of April, 1840, judgment was subsequently given against your petitioner, and the rule nisi discharged. That your petitioner was arrested on the 13th of November last, by the sheriff's officer, was taken from his family and business, and has now been for eleven weeks a prisoner in the county gaol of Leicester,"
He proceeded:—
"Your petitioner respectfully submits to your honourable House, that injustice has marked every step of these proceedings against him. That it is unjust to make a demand upon your petitioner for the support of a form of worship which his conscience repudiates. That it is unjust, when your petitioner has good ground for believing that demand to be bad in law to send him for his remedy to an ecclesiastical court, and call upon him to recognise the authority of the dignitaries of a church of which he is not a member; and to seek at an enormous expense the decision of a question involving your petitioner's rights at the hands of parties interested in giving judgment against him. That it is unjust that your petitioner should, for no valid reason and without his consent, be cited before the Arches Court of Canterbury instead of before the Court of the bishop of the diocese in which he
362
resides; whereby the expense is increased fivefold, and is rendered intolerably oppressive. And that it is unjust to take the person of your petitioner, and confine him in a gaol, when he his been guilty of no crime against society, and has merely carried out his principles, as a dissenter from the established religion, choosing to obey God rather than man."
Now he (Mr. Easthope) did not mean to urge that this case had been dealt with differently from other cases which had come formerly under the consideration of the House but he did mean to present this case to the House as one of those which were ill calculated to serve the interests of the Church. In the case to which the attention of the House was now requested, it should also be observed that, before the proceedings were commenced in the Ecclesiastical Court, the churchwardens of the parish in which Mr. Baines resided called a general vestry, to take into consideration the propriety of further proceedings. That vestry came to the unanimous determination that it was inexpedient to proceed in the business. They stated, as the ground of that determination, that they expected that Parliament: would alter the state of the of the law, and prevent any further litigation on the subject. This was the decision formed in the very parish in which Mr. Baines resided, by the vestry who had engaged in making the church-rate, by parties who were to benefit if he paid the rate, by those who were intimately acquainted with all the circumstances. The House had also had that evening presented to them petitions from the town of Leicester; first, from the congregation of religious persons with whom Mr. Baines worshipped, in which that person was described as a person of exemplary worth, as a man fulfilling all the relations of life with great propriety; esteemed, and justly esteemed, as they stated, by all who knew him. They had also received a petition, signed by no less than 6,000 persons, inhabitants of Leicester, without reference to religious persuasion, signed, among others, by nearly all the municipal authorities. An address had also been conveyed to the throne, expressing the prayer of 7,000 of the females of Leicester. In short, he believed that never was there an interest more intense, with reference to a case of grievance, than that which had now so long prevailed in that town on this subject. He had said that the parish meeting which assembled on the subject came to the unanimous determination, that it was inexpedient to proceed further in this case; he believed that they

363
came to that determination, under the impression—indeed it was stated at the meeting that they entertained the full expectation—that there would be an alteration in the law, and that, therefore, it was thought it would be inexpedient to proceed with the case; and he (Mr. Easthope) felt, on looking over the debates which had taken place in that House in reference to this subject, that it could be no matter of surprise with any person that these parties should have come to such a determination under such an impression. For instance, in the course of the debate, on July 24th, last year, he found that the noble Secretary for the Colonies stated that—
" He thought that those persons who, from a conscientious feeling, sought to make the laws respected by enforcing the punishment of imprisonment against those who violated the laws, did no good whatever in the way of maintaining a respect for the law when they acted not in accordance with the general feeling of the community."
These parties, then, he (Mr. Easthope) thought, made a very discreet use of the language which the noble Lord so appropriately and fitly used in that House. They knew that not only was there a general sympathy with Mr. Baines, and not with this law, but that the means taken to enforce the payment of these rates were a violation of all the sympathies and all the feelings which prevailed in the community where the process was instituted. If he were to attempt to describe the excitement which had prevailed, and still continued to prevail, the general feeling which strongly pervaded the minds of all classes in that community, he should fail in the attempt; but he would ask the noble Lord whether he thought it possible that the interests of any Church, or of religion in any shape or form, could be advanced by any such means, or by the recurrence of such cases as this? They had already discussed in that House, in various forms, this question of punishment and imprisonment for church-rates. They had had it discussed in cases where the Government of the country had proposed plans for the abolition of these rates—they had had it discussed in a case in which an individual of an humbler class was, like Mr. Baines, incarcerated in prison; and the general sentiment of the House had been, that such imprisonments and such enforcements of payment were ill adapted to promote the cause of religion, and very ill adapted to advance the interests of the Established Church. He was
364
sorry that it was his duty to have to describe the peculiar situation of the individual who was now labouring under this imprisonment. Mr. Baines was not an individual in an humble class of life; he was a person engaged in a large and profitable business; who, up to this affair, was surrounded by all the comforts of home, with a wife and family, from whom he was now severed, and from whom he had been severed since the month of November last, undergoing privations and discomforts which no man would be prepared to endure from a mere theory or fancy, or from anything short of a religious conviction, impressed on his feeling and conscience. And what position did the House occupy in connection with this subject?—that of carrying on and enforcing a state of law which operated against all the best principles by which man ought to be guided: that of depreciating that which they ought to advance, and discouraging that which they ought to promote. The noble Lord, on a former discussion, which took place on the 24th of July, 1840, said that—
"As to the general question of the state of the law, he was not one of those who wished the present system to be continued. He wished very much they had some substitute by which the sums now collected for the repairs of the Church could be raised in a less objectionable and onerous manner."
He was confident that, much as that noble Lord was attached to the Established Church—and let him say that he yielded not to the noble Lord or any other person in attachment to the Church—he was confident that the noble Lord must feel that such continued sufferings as Mr. Baines was now enduring, could not be necessary, and ought not to be required for the maintenance of any worship, and could not advance the interests of any religious community. He felt, that having stated that he would confine himself to the case of Mr. Baines, he was necessarily precluded from going into the general question of Church-rates, and that he should be considered as offending against the House, if he extended his statements to a wider sphere. To describe the feelings which prevailed in the locality in which Mr. Baines was imprisoned was out of his power, and he was equally unable to express the deep sense of shame and regret he felt that such a case as that which had excited those feelings should arise in relation to the religion of his country. He was not disposed to hold forth the language of reproach,

365
but he wished, most sincerely and anxiously, to hold forth the language of en-treaty, that those Members of the Established Church, who were more generally understood as its advocates and champions, would look to the effect of those occurrences; and, considering what their unavoidable consequences must be, what all such bitterness and strife must produce, what evil feelings and want of charity these continual conflicts must and did lead to, would apply themselves in good earnest to the consideration of a remedy, which, whilst it sustained, as it ought to do, the true principles of religion, should not inflict bitter sufferings on, or outrage the feelings of, those who differed from the Established Church in its forms of worship. In the town of Leicester there was no Church-rate levied, except in the parish of which Mr. Baines was an inhabitant, and in that parish there was no individual who more honestly and more sincerely lamented the effects produced by this unfortunate state of things than the clergyman who resided in it, the lion, and rev. Mr. Erskine, a name venerated by all lovers of liberty, That rev. Gentleman had told him that it was one of the greatest discomforts of his life, and that there was nothing he was more anxious for than to sec an end put to these embittering conflicts. Nor would it be long before this state of things in the town of Leicester would be extended beyond the case of Mr. Baines. There were now twenty-six individuals there who were under legal citation, and who were subject to be also immured in prison, and who were daily in expectation that such would be their fate. There were also no less than ten persons now under summons for tomorrow. Now, what would be the effect If this state of things were allowed to go on, and the House remained passive, after the repeated and strong declarations which had been made from all quarters against such a system? What would be the effect on the public mind if those twenty-six, or rather thirty-six persons, were also to be immured in prison like Mr. Baines? Nor was this all that had come to his knowledge. In an adjoining county there was a dissenting minister under citation, who daily expected to share the fate of Mr. Baines. It had been repeatedly stated in that House, and very emphatically stated in a former discussion by the right hon. Member for Montgomery (Mr. C. W. Wynn), that
"He agreed with the noble Lord in think-
366
ing that the disputes which had arisen on the subject of Church-rates in different vestries very likely, if allowed to continue, to prove prejudical not only to the peace of particular parishes, but to the general interests of religion. Was it not predicted in all the debates that were had in that House, that it would be quite impossible for these scenes of conflict avid dissension to be smothered or put an end to by enforcing Church-rates."
Had not almost every public man who had taken any part in these debate given it as his opinion, that it was impossible that such strife and such bitterness, grounded as they were on differences in religious opinion, and festering as they did under the belief that the enforcement of the rates offended against conscience—was it not foretold by everybody that such a state of things must produce the results which were now becoming manifest, and which would become still more and more alarming if a remedy were not applied? And, let him seriously put it to the House, for what object—to what end—was all this? Would the Church benefit by it? Look at Leicester r every parish in that considerable town, except this particular parish, had its worship regularly and properly conducted, the fabric of its Churches sustained, and harmony among its inhabitants uninterrupted. Yet no Church-rates were levied; while in this parish, where there happened to be a majority who thought it to be their duty to pay Church-rates, there were continual uproar, schism, and conflicts; sales of goods, to pay Church-rates, were seen, which exhibited all the buffoonery of Merry Andrew shows; neighbour was arrayed against neighbour, and one set of persons against another, who would otherwise live together in a state of kindly and charitable feeling. What, he would ask, must be the feeling of the large majority of this town, when, as was matter of notoriety, this very individual, who was suffering under the sentence of the law, who had, during four of the severe winter months, been incarcerated in a dreary prison; when this very individual, while thus immurred, had been elected a town councillor, by the largest ward in the town, consisting of nearly 20,000 persons? Could anything exhibit more palpably and strongly, that there was no sympathy with such a law, that the law was repudiated, and that those who violated it were considered more to be honoured than those who obeyed it. Whatever might be said to the contrary, Mr. Baines was considered in Leicester as a martyr, as a man of high

367
courage, and unflinching honesty; and this was unequivocally manifested by the evidence of near 20,000 persons, who not only him to be one of their corporation, but voted him such by an unanimous vote. There was not one man who voted against him; not one man who said that Mr. Baines was not a proper man to be elected; not one man who suggested a representative in the town council in preference to Mr. Baines. He (Mr. Easthope) was convinced that the noble Lord would feel that the continuance and the enforcement of such a law in a community where such feelings prevailed, could not in any way forward the objects for which the law was professedly employed; it was a scandal to the Church, admirably adapted to produce its decline, admirably adapted to work the work of those who were its enemies, but not at all adapted to advance those great and good results which the Church aimed at, and which its religion, if left to itself, to its own genial influence, would be sure to produce. He had said, that he would strictly confine himself to the particular grievance of Mr. Baines. He was aware that in doing so he could not do that justice to his case which he could wish, and that he might fail to produce that impression which he had desired to make; but limited as he was by the engagement which he had made, he would conclude by moving,
"That it appears by the petition of William Baines, a Protestant Dissenter, that he has been confined in the county gaol of Leicester since the 13th day of November last, for the non-payment of 2l. 5s., being the amount of a Church-rate assessed upon him for the parish of St. Martin, in the borough of Leicester; and also for the non-payment of 124 l. 18s., being the amount of costs incurred by the proceedings taken against him in the Arches Court of Canterbury; and that thus to imprison William Baines for refusing to contribute towards the expenses attending the worship of the Established Church, from which he conscientiously dissents, is to punish him for acting in accordance with what he regards as a religious duty, and is, a violation of the principles of religious freedom."
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the hon. Gentleman who brought forward this motion having given notice of a motion, that the petition of Mr. Baines should be taken into consideration, he was not at all aware, till he heard it read from the Chair, what was the nature of the motion which the hon. Gentleman had proposed to conclude with; and he must say that, considering no notice had been given of its
368
intended character, the resolution now proposed, appeared very wide and sweeping. The question brought before the House was stated to be the particular grievance of Mr Baines; and the imprisonment of that individual was, no doubt, the ground-work of the resolution; yet the whole case of the grievance was a case bearing upon the general law, and the enforcement of that law, and the resolution now read, did not so much go to release Mr. Baines, as to denounce the existing law, and to declare, that the system under which his grievance arose, ought no longer to remain. He was using this argument, not as saying, that it might not be a proper resolution enough to be brought forward for the consideration of the House, but as expressing his opinion, that when such a resolution was brought forward, it ought to be brought forward with a great deal more notice than the hon. Gentleman had thought proper to give on this occasion. With reference to the particular circumstances which induced the parties in question—he knew not who they were—to take these proceedings against Mr. Baines, which ended in his imprisonment, he (Lord John Russell) did not think it necessary, not being fully acquainted with the particulars, to give any opinion on the subject, whether they were justified in pursuing that course, or whether there was anything at all excessive in their method of proceeding. But with reference to the question as it came broadly before them, whether or not a party was to be sanctioned in his violation of the law of the land respecting the payment of Church-rates, be could have no hesitation in answering that question directly in the negative. He could conceive very well, that this might be an impost which it was not very advisable to maintain, if it were shown that a better kind of rate, or an improved mode of providing for the fabric of the Church, could be adopted; presuming, as the hon. Member stated, that the present law created schisms and conflicts in communities, and set neighbour against neighbour, it might be a question whether it were not desirable to alter such a law; but this was a totally different question from that, whether Mr. Baines, or any other individual, was to set up a standard of his own as to what should, and what should not, be the law for him, and to declare that what he thought oppressive to the

369
conscience was no longer to be observed, Mr. Baines stated the case clearly enough in his petition: he himself admitted that the inhabitants of his parish made a church-rate of six-pence in the pound; that was the rate laid by the parish; there was no question as to the power of making the rate. Mr. Baines not paying the rate, was cited to appear before the Borough magistrate, and he disputed the validity of the rate, a proceeding which necessarily implied that he was prepared to show, in the proper court, that it was not legal. Then, according to the law of this country, he did not say whether it were a politic law—the place for deciding this dispute was the Arches Court of Canterbury. The petitioner stated that he had received a citation from the Ecclesiastical Court, to; which he had given no attention. Now, was that a justifiable course? Was the Lords or Commons to say, so long as there was a court appointed to try such causes, that when that court, proceeding in the regular course, cites a party who questions the validity of the rate to appear and justify his conduct, the party should himself be permitted to decide that the law was not one to be obeyed, and that he would pay no attention to the citation? Was the House, in such a case, to come forward and pass a resolution in favour of such a person, on the ground that the law was oppressive? Could they keep up any law, if such a principle were sanctioned? What would be the rule of obedience? Mr. Baines thought the existence of rates for the support of an established church oppressive, and the decision of a court appointed by the law of the land to decide in such cases, was a violation of the rights of conscience. Another man might think the same thing of some other law. Another man might think it a violation of the rights of conscience, to be asked to contribute to the expenses of the army or the navy, or any tax to be used for the purposes of war or in a way to produce bloodshed. Another might deny the right to imprison, or take away life, according to the provision of the criminal law, and refuse to pay taxes for its enforcement. In this way the payment of any tax required for the support of the law, might be refused, on the ground that the particular individual felt it a violation of conscience to contribute to the expense of what he thought unlawful, unjust, or un-Christian. Where
370
was the distinction to be drawn? How could they say that Mr. William Baines should have the right of deciding for himself, and of laying down what ought to be law, and that this or that law ought not to be obeyed, and that every other individual in the United Kingdom should not have the same right, and should not be equally entitled to come to the House for a resolution in his favour? It was not, therefore, because the question referred to the support of Church-rates, but because it concerned the support of the general laws of the kingdom, that he thought it impossible for the House to give its sanction to the resolution which his hon. Friend proposed. With respect to the general question of Church-rates, his hon. Friend had not entered much into it, and he did not think it necessary for him to go into it. He certainly regretted that there was not a mode of providing for the repair of churches which was less objectionable. But it was a very different thing to establish, either by a resolution, or by any bill brought forward in that House, the principle, or countenance the opinion, though held by several among the dissenters, that the payment of Church-rates ought to be refused, and the law of the land disobeyed, on the ground of conscience. He thought that opinion, though held by a great many respectable men, was not only incompatible with the existence of an established church, but with the maintenance of the general law of the land; neither was it an opinion countenanced by the early Christians. They paid tribute to the Roman Emperors, who, as they well knew, in many instances, devoted the money to the erection of temples to the heathen gods. The early Christians knew well that the most superstitious and abominable rights were often performed in those temples, and yet they were told by the highest authority that it was their duty to pay tribute. He could not understand how it could be a violation of the rights of conscience to be obliged to pay a sum of money for the support of a worship with which the individual did not agree. He wished to respect all conscientious feeling; but it was absurd to lay down a principle such as that a man would have only to pronounce the word "conscience" to be freed from the payment of legal demands. The petitioner spoke of its being unjust to confine him in a gaol for being guilty of no crime against soci-

371
ety, but for merely carrying out the principles of a dissenter from the Established Church, and choosing to obey God rather than man. He (Lord J. Russell) had no doubt that such was the feeling of the petitioner, but he could not say that he exonerated him from being guilty of a crime against society. He thought that, in setting an example of disobedience to the established laws of the country, Mr. Baines was acting in a way to shake the authority of the law and the confidence and respect which ought to belong to it. With respect to adopting another mode of enforcing church-rates, that was a different question. There was one alteration of the law, which nothing but what appeared to him indifference on the part of dissenters with respect to the change had prevented from taking place—he meant an alteration which would transfer the enforcement of the law, such as it was, from the ecclesiastical to the civil courts. He (Lord J. Russell) could not see the propriety or advantage of such questions going before an ecclesiastical court, while, on the other hand, there was very great disadvantage attending it, and parties thought it a greater hardship to be summoned to appear before the ecclesiastical Courts than before others. If church-rates were levied by a court of quarter sessions, with appeal to the superior courts of common law, he thought they would form as fit a tribunal with regard to the payment of church-rates or tithes as any other. He trusted the House would not sanction the principle contained in this resolution. If it was thought better to abolish church-rates as altogether onerous and oppressive, let it be done upon the general grounds; but let them hot agree to a resolution, which, in sanctioning the refusal of church-rates, went to justify disobeying any law whatever.
Mr. Hume said, the noble Lord had stated, with great propriety, that the mode in which church-rates were levied and resisted, tended to shake confidence in the law. There was no doubt that such was the case, and it was one of the arguments for abolishing them with every one who had attended to the question. It did shake the authority of the laws, and why? Because everything unjust and partial was liable to be shaken, and when a law was unjust and unequal, it ought to be shaken off. The noble Lord complained that individuals took the law into their
372
own hands, and refused to sanction such proceedings; but it was the mode in which oppression had been shaken off in all ages. The noble Lord himself had concurred in that mode of proceeding. He was sorry to hear the noble Lord refer to the conduct of the Romans against the early Christians as a sanction for the collection of church-rates. He thought the noble Lord's own eloquent speeches had for ever silenced that argument when brought forward on the other side. He was sorry to find the noble Lord take up the exploded arguments of his adversaries. The noble Lord seemed to forget that the individual complained of the rate being levied at all. He prayed the House totally to abolish church-rates, or to exempt dissenters from the payment of them, and put an end to ecclesiastical jurisdiction, which, though sanctioned by law, was repudiated by religion. That was the ground on which they came before the House. The maintenance of the present law was inconsistent with declarations that had been made on the other side of the House. In alluding to the case of David Salomon, the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford, had lately said that no man could be an honest man who contributed a portion of his substance to the maintenance of a temple devoted to worship of which he did not approve. What was the present law but a tyrannical attempt to make men guilty of this dishonesty? The hon. Baronet was consistent in everything that tended to the maintenance of the privileges of the Church; why was he not so far consistent as to come forward and exempt the dissenters from being called on to do what he said no honest man could do? He would leave the hon. Baronet to explain the agreement between his late declaration and his maintenance of church-rates. He had heard with great regret the noble Lord doubt how this could be a question of conscience with Mr. Baines. How could Mr. Baines give a stronger proof of his sincerity than by undergoing punishment? He had given the best possible proof of his character by his manner of acting. He preferred submitting to severe privation, rather than pay a tax for a purpose of which he could not conscientiously approve. But he begged to call the attention of the noble Lord to what the noble Lord himself had done in 1833. When Lord Althorp brought forward a

373
motion for abolishing church-rates altogether, did not the noble Lord support the motion? Did not the whole Cabinet support it, and thereby declare that the tax ought to be abolished? Did they not make a proposition that church-rates should be abolished, and dissenters no longer pay a farthing of them? And did not the House adopt it by a large majority? He believed that 268 Members voted for that motion. The noble Lord calculated that, after certain deductions, 265,000 l. would be necessary to maintain the fabric of the Church; and he proposed that that amount should be paid out of the consolidated fund. What was the meaning of that motion, if it was not condemnatory of the payment by dissenters of rates for the support of places of worship belonging to the Church? But the Government were not pledged by that alone. What had they done in Ireland? When it was complained that 76,000 l. were paid as church cess by Catholics for maintaining the fabric of the Protestant. Church in Ireland, did not the noble Lord the Member for North Lancashire bring forward and carry a measure for the abolition of that tax? Was it not fair and just, after such a measure, to expect that no time would be lost in doing a similar act of justice to the dissenters of England? His hon. Friend had referred to the anxiety of feeling at Leicester upon the point. He (Mr. Hume), too, could vouch for it. He had attended at Leicester one of the largest and most important public meetings at which he had ever been present, and he never heard a more strong, decisive, and unanimous condemnation of the injustice of church-rates than that meeting expressed. He thought that, as the law stood, an individual suffering from it had no other way of seeking a remedy for the grievance than that which Mr. Baines had taken. His hon. Friend had made out a strong case, and he trusted the House would support the resolution, which proposed to put an end to the injustice. On these grounds he begged to second the motion.
Sir R. Inglissaid, the House could not have expected to be called upon so soon to; discuss this question after the recent assurance of the hon. Mover, that he would postpone the question of Church-rates until after Easter. He did not mean to say anything personally discourteous to that hon. Member, but he must remark that, in direct
374
violation of the understanding of the House, the whole subject of Church-rates was now brought forward without the House having the opportunity of discussing any particular measure relating to it. With regard to the charge of inconsistency made against him, he was almost ashamed to repeat what he had so often said, that the distinction which he made was this, that, while he would do nothing voluntarily to contribute to education or worship alien from that which he believed to be the word and the doctrine of the Gospel, he would submit to the Jaw of the land, and so far as in him lay he would make his fellow-subjects submit to it, where it bound not themselves, but their property, to the support of a school or form of worship to which they might be as conscientiously opposed as he was to this proposition. The question was not what were the personal opinions of Mr. W. Baines; the question was, whether he occupied a tenement in the parish of St. Martin's in the borough of Leicester, subject to a Church-rate, and 'which, whether it wore occupied by Mr. David Salomons, Mr. Joseph Hume, Sir Robert inglis, or Mr. William Baines, would be subject to it. The question had not the least reference to the present opinions of the individual, but to the value of the tenement which he occupied. If that tenement remained unoccupied it paid nothing; but if occupied, whether by Jew, Turk, heretic, or infidel, it, paid the same sum. Mr. Baines occupied this tenement, knowing that it was liable to this imposition, and knowing that on this account he paid so much less rent for it, or if he bought it, that he paid a gross sum so much the less than if it had not been subject to this imposition. The resolution on the Table of the House was, that Mr. Baines had been sued for a sum of 21. 5.s. for Church-rates. Would the hon. Member deny that this tenement was subject to pay this sum long before Mr. Baines occupied it, perhaps long before Mr. Baines was torn, and would he deny that it would pay the same sum if he himself should occupy it to-morrow? Over and over again he had said, that this was not a question of creed bat of property. It was the property which paid and not the creed; and if they released the property from this imposition, they would give a premium to all persons to dissent from the Established Church. The only ground of nationality in the Church was, that the nation paid in this way for its support. The nation paid no

375
thing in respect of tithes. Tithes were given antecedently to the time when any hon. Member could trace the possession of his property in the hands of those from whom he derived it. The only act by which the nation consecrated its substance in any degree, small as that degree was, to the support of the Church, was that by which the land was made liable to repair and maintain the fabric of the Established Church. The hon. Member (Dr. Nichol) appeared to dissent from his opinion; he (Sir R. Inglis) would hardly presume to contradict any statement made so authoritatively, but all his reading led him to the conclusion, that, from the earliest Saxon times, Church scot was distinctly binding upon all property in England to maintain the fabric of the Church, was as clear as any fact connected with our history. The oldest landed proprietor in England did not inherit his broad acres, or his castellated mansion on any other tenure than this; and, in stating this, he was only stating what he was sure every lawyer in the House was prepared to maintain. The law might be a bad one; if so, alter it; but while it remained unaltered every acre of land and every tenement in England was held subject to this imposition, varying, it might be, according to the incidents and necessities of each parish, but still subject to such; and, as he again repeated, having no more reference to the creed of the occupant than it had to the colour of his skin or the height of his stature. For these reasons he hoped, that the decision of the House would be on the present occasion, and hereafter on further discussions on this subject to reject the proposition which the hon. Member (Mr. Easthope) had advanced in defence, perhaps, of his friend and of the township with which he was connected, but still in defence of a proposition which was utterly untenable by him or by any other person.
Dr. Nicholldid not concur in the opinion of his hon. Friend, the Member for Oxford, that this was an impost laid on by any fixed or definite statute, but it was one authorised and enforced by the common law of the land. It was an obligation imposed from time immemorial, and in saying this, he was supported by the authority of the Exchequer Chamber, in the Braintree Church-rate case. That bench, composed of eight of the most learned judges who ever graced any seat
376
of judgment—men, too, differing from each other in political opinions, had expressed a unanimous opinion on the subject. They said,
"And we are all of opinion, that the obligation by which the parishioners, that is, the actual residents within, or the occupiers of lands or tenements in every parish, are bound to repair the body of the parish church whenever necessary; and to provide all things essential to the performance of Divine Service therein, is an obligation imposed on them by the common law of the land.
"Such then, being the law of the land, it follows, as a necessary consequence, that the repair of the fabric of the church is a duty which the parishioners are compellable to perform—not a mere voluntary act which they may perform or decline at their own discretion; that the law is imperative upon them absolutely, that they do repair the church, not binding on them in a qualified limited manner only, that they may repair or not, as they think fit; and that where it so happens that the fabric of the church stands in need of repair, the only question upon which the parishioners, when convened together to make a rate, can by law deliberate and determine, is not whether they will repair the church or not (for upon that point they are concluded by the law), but how and in what manner the common law obligation so binding them, may be best and most effectually, and at the same time most conveniently, performed and carried into effect. The parishioners have no more power to throw off the burden of the repair of the church, than that of the repair of bridges and highways, the compelling of the performance of the latter obligation belonging exclusively to the temporal courts, whilst that of the former has been exercised usually, though perhaps not necessarily exclusively, by the spiritual courts from time immemorial."
He hoped the hon. Member for Leicester would not dispute the law of the Exchequer Chamber, however he might dissent from that of his hon. Friend. On the 28th August, Mr. Baines was summoned, but did not appear, and a Mr. Davies appeared for him. He was in the same situation as Thorogood was, and the magistrates had no power to proceed further, because he objected to the rate, and stated that he would object to its validity in the ecclesiastical court. The House was aware, that by the 53d Geo. 3., in reference to the summary jurisdiction of magistrates, it was enacted, that if the defendant attended and objected to the rate, and satisfied the bench that he intended to contest it in the ecclesiastical court, the summary jurisdiction of the

377
magistrates, as against the goods of the party, was ousted, and the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical court established. Let Mr. Baines then reconcile it to his own conscience, if he could, to prove that fair honest, or plain dealing—let him reconcile it, if he could, to his own good sense, duty, or truth, to go before the magistrates and say, "I object to this rate, and intend to contest its validity in the ecclesiastical court," when at that very moment he had determined never to appear in that court, and never there to contest the validity of the rate. He was sure that the hon. Member for Leicester himself would not stand up and attempt to justify such a course. He was sure that that hon. Gentleman was a man of too high honour and principle to say that a man could thus, by a sort of false pretence, throw off the jurisdiction which properly attached to him. He could entertain a high respect for a man who was mistaken, or who resisted a law which he believed to be unjust; but he could have no sympathy with a man who did not boldly come forward, but who set forth an intention to dispute the validity of a rate in the ecclesiastical court, which at that time, he now told them, he never entertained, and that he could not even reconcile it to his conscience ever to go into that court. This gentleman was then cited by letters of request into the Court of Arches. He refused to appear. Written notices, extra-judicial notices, and letters were then sent him, that if he did not appear, he would be pronounced in contempt, and that in default proceedings would go on to trial. But after this he would not appear—he took no notice of it—the judge still held his hand he still delayed. He then directed a decree to stay proceedings, and delivered a formal notice. The judge gave him every opportunity to appear; he continued to delay three or four courts. At last the libel was admitted—witnesses were examined—the rate for the repair of the church made by the parish in vestry assembled, was proved—all the circumstances of the case were established that were necessary to constitute the validity of the rate, and at length he was condemned in the amount of the rate and costs. Again the judge held his hand for three or four court days—notice was given to him, that if he did not appear and pay the rate and costs, he would be pronounced in contempt. This went on from
378
the middle of February to the end of the month of May, he believed, though he was not certain, and at last he was pronounced in contempt. His contempt was signified into the Court of Chancery. A writ was issued by that court. Mr. Baines went out of the way, and was not to be found; but on the last day of term, he applied to the Court of Queen's Bench for a rule to arrest proceedings. That hung up the case until after a long vacation and then the question was argued, when the judges decided that the proceedings had been regular, and refused a prohibition. He was then taken under a writ de contumace capiendo. He applied for a writ of habeas corpus, under which he was released. Again, the Court of Queen's Bench, after an argument of the case, refused the application. He then went to the Court of Chancery, and applied there for a writ of habeas corpus. Again, it was argued and determined before the Lord Chancellor; and, again, the Lord Chancellor decided that the whole of the proceedings had been regular. Now, he asked, if there could be any such gross personal wrong committed on this individual as had been stated?—Here was a sum of money which, by a law binding on all the inhabitants of this country, he was bound to pay. He had a remedy to throw it off; but he did not do so, and he chose to say, voluntarily, that he would appear in the ecclesiastical court. He refused there to appear, and then, necessarily, as he had prolonged the remedy against his property, the remedy attached against his person. Perhaps it was a convenient thing to be made a martyr of—perhaps the hon. Gentleman, the Member for Leicester, had no objection to become a martyr; but he assured him that he could not, for Lord Brougham's bill gave the power of proceeding against his goods, so that he could not enjoy the privilege. He thought that he had not "kept the word of promise to the ear and broke it to the hope," as the hon. Member (Mr. Easthope), did when he said he should confine himself to the case of Mr. Baines, instead of which he had spoken upon the general question of Church-rates; and he also thought he had shown that Mr. Baines was not entitled to the sympathy of this House; and he believed that, under the circumstances, the House would, without hesitation, negative the motion of the hon. Member.
Sir R. Inglisexplained, His hon.

379
Friend (Dr. Nicholl) had misunderstood him. He had not referred to the statute law at all, but had said that the right of the Church of England was an antecedent right. But although he did not say it was created, he believed the right was confirmed by statute.
Mr. Hawessaid, that undoubtedly, it was exceedingly difficult to offer any observations upon the question now before the House, without taking the course, which the hon. Member for Leicester had been reminded of having taken, and mixing it up with the general question of Church-rates. It was extremely difficult; and while he wished on the one hand to keep closely to the case of Mr. Baines, on the other hand, he1 was aware that he might not, in the course of his observations, confine himself strictly to that question, apart from the subject of Church-rates. In noticing the remark of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Dr. Nicholl) he would say that, if he wished any arguments to furnish him with grounds to support the allegation of the petition, the the petitioner had been treated with harshness and injustice, he would wish no other grounds than the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman—because be considered that the party here suffering, however mistaken he might be,—and without raising the question of conscientious scruples, and how far these scruples were to be respected by the State, raised by the noble Lord,—he must say, when he saw a conscientious man in gaol for doing that which he believed to be his duty, the very steps taken in proceeding against him were sufficient to convince him that the petitioner had been treated with harshness. The hon. and learned Gentleman had said that, if his bill of last year had been passed into a law, Mr. Baines would not be in prison; but, by that measure, had it been law, his goods would have been seized. Now a seizure of his goods would have been as much a violence to him, as a conscientious man, as the incarceration of his person. Undoubtedly, the hon. and learned Gentleman's measure might have mitigated the law and lessened the steps taken for the vindication of the supremacy of the law, ant) certainly, whatever he did in that direction, he (Mr. Hawes) should be found and happy to support him. But when he referred to his efforts, he would reply that the ecclesiastical commission,
380
which sat ten years ago, recommended far better measures for that purpose than the bill which he (Dr. Nicholl) had recommended. He had no doubt, that if the hon. and learned Gentleman were not a Member of that commission, he had read their report. That report recommended much more than the hon. and learned Gentleman did; and though he had been in office since that time, and had sat a considerable time in the House of Commons, save and except his one effort of last Session, he had done nothing to relieve men who suffered from a conscientious objection to pay Church-rates. [Dr. Nicholl: Look at the bill of 1835.] It was of no use to refer him to that bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman should point out an Act of Parliament. He must say, whether it was to one Government or to another—and he thought the report dated further back than 1830, he believed 1829,—it was a reproach to them and to this House, that from that time to this, no steps had been taken to carry any of the recommendations of that report into effect. The noble Lord (Lord ohn Russell) had said, that any scruples of conscience which an individual entertained were not to be considered, because it might happen that he contravened some law of the State, and any individual might take it into his head to have this or that scruple of conscience; this was not to be considered, because the general interest of the State demanded that the law should he supreme. To that, as a general maxim, he (Mr. Hawes) perfectly agreed; but he drew a distinction between the laws which were necessary for the security of the State, for the protection of property, and for the preservation of order, and those laws which were enacted for the maintenance of a religion. He did not connect the security or stability of the State with the maintenance, by national taxation, of a sectarian church. He did not connect the two—he did not see their necessary connexion—he had never seen their necessary connexion—and when he had referred to the laws relating to the repairs of bridges and highways, or any other common object, the answer had been, that the people generally, without distinction of sect, derived benefit from these objects on which a portion of the national fund was expended. But that was not the case with respect to the Church. He did not wish to say anything that was calculated to

381
bring that Church into disrepute, or to injure it, but he must frankly state to the House, that he never connected its stability with the taxation of those who conscientiously differed from its creed; and he must, therefore, take leave to say that, with regard to civil and religious institutions, there was a broad and clear line to be drawn; and as to the reference which the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had mad to other and higher authority, he met that by saying, that that "tribute," so far as we had any information, was not exclusively applied to the maintenance of the Pagan religion, but generally to the purposes of the state of Rome. Therefore, so far as that was the case, he took leave, with the greatest deference to the noble Lord, to say that his reference did not carry with it a perfect and entire conviction. The hon. and learned Member (Dr. Nicholl) had made a distinction between what he called mere statutary law and mere common law. He owned that he preferred, on all occasions, statutary law to common law. He was quite aware that he was an ignorant and unlearned man; but he admitted that he had a kind of English preference for statute law in contradistinction to common law, which, as far as he knew anything about it, was what any judge might, at any time, declare to be his interpretation of former usages and customs. As compared with that sort of law then, he preferred statute law. His opinion was, that the observation of the hon. and learned Member rather indicated the prejudices which belonged to his profession than the matured conviction of the judgment. The hon. and learned Gentleman would bind all parties to the sustentation of the Church; but there was this omission in that part of his argument—he never told the House how the common law was to be carried into effect. And that was precisely the whole difficulty of the ease. According to the practice, a majority in any parish deckled the question that was touched upon with the greatest possible discretion but extreme delicacy. How, if it be the common law of the land, was it to be en forced by reference to the ecclesiastical courts? How were these courts to enforce what were deemed to be the provisions of the common law 'Why, they had no means of enforcing them. Mr. Baines was not now in prison for violating the comment law. He was in gaol for one of
382
two things—either for contempt, or for a common debt and costs. In such cases, the ecclesiastical court treated men as debtors, created enormous costs, and then placed them in gaol for not paying the debt and these costs. He contended that that was a gross and crying abuse—one that called for a remedy—and one that this House had on more than one occasion expressed a decided opinion upon, and yet it had never met the least attention from the noble Lord, the leader of this House. The right hon. Baronet, the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. Inglis), had, in his opinion, taken a most extraordinary and baneful argument. He said, that Church-rates were a necessary incident to property. Now, he would say, in reply to that, that if they were a necessary incident to property, it was strange that it should depend on the decision of the majority of a parish whether the property in that parish should bear them or not. How could this argument be applied to Church-rates? For property had always endured, and it followed, from a logical deduction, that Church-rates must always endure; whereas, the fact was that the majority of a parish could refuse them, and the great majority of the population of the three kingdoms believed them to be founded in injustice. There must be a fallacy then in the argument which necessarily connected Church-rates with property; whilst there was much troth in this, that a Church-rate was a kind of contribution in aid of tithe for the support of the Church, and dependent entirely on the will of the majority of a parish—which might be paid or withheld; and if withheld there was no means of enforcing its payment, either by the statute or the common law. [An hon. Member: "No, no."] The hon. and learned Gentleman must feel, of course, that an argument of this sort coming from him (Mr. Hawes) could have no weight whatever as against the arguments which the hon. and learned Member's knowledge of the law had enabled him to advance; but all he could say was, that, from the best attention he had been able to give to the subject, this was the view he entertained, and which he knew was entertained by a large majority of people out of doors; and, if he were not very much mistaken, it was the opinion entertained, and that in print, by as hon. and learned Gentleman who now occupied a high legal and judicial station.

383
Were church-rates to be allowed to continue as at present? Was the law to be made more stringent and more bitter, as the hon. and learned Gentleman said? The law as it stood was a disgrace and scandal to the country. The ecclesiastical commission had recommended making the law more stringent. He knew why that recommendation was not adopted. The remedy was so severe that a Government calling itself Liberal dared not adopt it. Did they forget that church-rates had been abolished in Ireland? Did they forget that they did not exist in Scotland? Why were not Scotland and Ireland to pay for what was called a national Church; were we one or three nations? Was the peace of the Church—was the peace of every parish, to be ruined in favour of the wealthiest establishment known to exist on the face of the earth? If this state of things continued, you might do all you could by the learning, piety, and activity of your clergy—you might do all you could by a powerful party in this House, but you would still have the seeds of discord and unhappiness which would one day do much injury to the Church. He therefore believed, that the interests of the Church were bound up with this question. He did not believe, that Dissenters were so bad as to entertain those feelings hostile to the Church which had been ascribed to them. He did not believe, that they were jealous of the property of the Church. They knew of a principle which was a stronger foundation for their faith than that on which the Church relied, and never until the Church of England adopted the principle on which other churches had risen to greatness, would she become more powerful. He did not wish to injure the Church, as a Church, but to remove every just ground of complaint.
Sir Robert Peelhoped, that the House would not allow itself to be diverted, by any observations that had been made, into the consideration of any matter extraneous to that which was properly the subject before it. The question before them was not whether there ought to be an alteration in church-rates; it was not whether it was to substitute any maintenance for the Church in lieu of that which existed; it was not whether the ecclesiastical courts' jurisdiction in these matters should be abolished; it was not whether the amount of fees exacted in these cases were excessive; but the single question before them
384
was this: whether the House of Commons would lend its sanction to this proposition—that there were to be certain exceptions allowed to a due obedience to the law of the land, provided a man alleged a conscientious scruple—whether that would entitle him to violate the law, for that was the proposal of the hon. Gentleman, when he called upon them to sanction by their acquiescence this resolution:—"That to imprison William Baines for refusing to contribute towards the expenses attending the worship of the Established Church, from which he conscientiously dissents, is to punish him for acting in accordance with what he regards as a religious duty, and is a violation of the principles of religious freedom." Thus is was that the House of Commons, one branch of the Legislature, which did not apply itself to an alteration in the law, was called upon to' sanction disobedience to the law by William Baines. Where was there to be a limit to this principle? Who was to decide what was a conscientious scruple? The hon. Member for Kilkenny had given them his test, for he had found how difficult it was to dive into the human heart, to penetrate all its secret workings, and trace out all its motives, and thus to determine whether or not a man felt a conscientious scruple, and thereupon the hon. Member supplied them with a test; for he said, that provided a man went to prison and remained there for four months, they might believe that he had a conscientious scruple. But how would they limit that test? Was it to be referred only to matters of religion, or was it to go further? Taxes were necessary to be provided for carrying on war. Some men objected to war, and might object to pay taxes to be applied to that object, and a man might prefer going to prison, rather than pay such taxes. According to the hon. Gentleman's lest, by his doing so, he would give a decided proof of the sincerity of his opinion, and therefore would it be contended, that he ought to be relieved from the payment of taxes? But then the h n. Gentleman said, he could draw another distinction. He said, that conscientious scruples may apply to matters of religion, and the hon. Gentleman said, that in Scotland property was exempted from church-rates. He apprehended that was not the case. He apprehended, that if the hon. Gentleman, being a member of the Episcopalian Church, purchased a

385
large estate in Scotland, he would find himself called upon to contribute to the Presbyterian form of worship. Having then purchased the property, and made a handsome deduction from the purchase, as he had no doubt the hon. Member would, on account of the payment of church-rates, and if he then said, that he had a conscientious scruple to the payment of them, why, in that case, they might be called upon to affirm, that the imprisonment of Benjamin Hawes for refusing to contribute towards the expenses attaching to the worship of the Presbyterian Church, from which he conscientiously dissented, was to punish him for acting in accordance with what he regarded as a religious duty, and was a gross violation of the principle of religious freedom. Why, lie asked, was not the resolution to apply as well to Episcopalians who alleged a conscientious scruple, as well as to others? But supposing that Mr. Baines made an objection to tithes. The hon. Gentleman said, religious scruples ought to be protected, and that he would draw a clear distinction between that, which being contributed for the State, was for the benefit of all, and that which was contributed for religion, and, therefore, for the benefit of a few. The hon. Gentleman made an exception on account of religion. Let them suppose, then, that Mr. Baines was now a prisoner because he had a religious objection to the payment of tithes—what, then, would be said by them. Why not, then, declare that it was a violation of religious freedom to insist upon his payment of tithes? for if the hon. Gentleman were right in his principle as applied to Church-rates, why not also extend it to tithes? That was a matter of religion, Church-rates were ancillary to tithes, and it was difficult to distinguish where it was that the conscientious scruple was to be respected, and where disregarded. But were they quite sure that they would limit their conscientious scruples to religious matters merely? He turned to some petitions that had been presented on the subject of the poor-law, and he found in them conscientious scruples put forward very prominently; and he wished to know, if these were to be made the palliation for a disobedience to the law? He found, for instance, in a petition that had been presented a few days before, that it was stated that under the New Poor-law a new system of persecution
386
had been commenced against the Dissenters—that they were by it deprived of their religious riles, and that, as their ancestors had been imprisoned in gaols, they, their descendants, were now imprisoned in the workhouse. Another said, that it was against religion—"adverse to justice, humanity, and the principles of Christianity." There were, too, a great number of persons who objected to patronage in Scotland, and designated it "a lording over God's territory." If the law were complained of, the law ought to be altered, and no person belonging to the Established Church ought to set himself in violation of the law; for that, he thought, was the sentiment expressed by one hon. Gentleman. Suppose those parties had conscientious scruples. How was it that the hon. Member for Kilkenny who was ready to concur in this resolution giving perfect impunity on account of religious scruples, was so intolerant last Session, when certain parties in the Church of Scotland claimed the right of violating the law on the ground of religious scruples? Suppose those parties were ready to go to prison, and thus supply that test of sincerity which the hon. Member for Kilkenny said was clear and unerring, would that hon. Member concur in supporting a resolution that those persons who thus supplied him with a proof of their sincerity were justified on the ground of their religious scruples? He apprehended the true and only safe principle to be, that while the law remained in force, it must be obeyed. Alter the law if they pleased: but while it remained in force there would be a dissolution of the bonds of society if, upon the allegation of religious scruples, individuals should presume to violate it. It would, again, be a violation in all respects of authority if the House of Commons—one branch of the Legislature—were to sanction the principle that a man who urged conscientious scruples as a reason for violating the law was justified in such violation. But suppose the House of Commons to be willing to make an exception, what would be the result? Let them look at it with regard to the New Poor-law. Were there not many men who felt conscientious scruples with respect to that law? Were there not men who thought, or at least alleged, that it was a violation of the law of God to compel persons to go into the workhouse as a condition of

387
relief? How could they presume to determine whether the allegation was true, whether the scruples were conscientious, and, after passing a resolution, that, in a particular case, they would refrain from punishing disobedience to the law because the violator acted in accordance with his sense of religious duty, how could they invoice the power of the law in other cases where conscientious scruples were alleged? The resolution proposed was perfectly indefinite in its application. It ran thus:—
"That thus to imprison William Baines for refusing to contribute towards the expenses attending the worship of the Established Church, from which he conscientiously dissents, is to punish him for acting in accordance with what he regards as a religious duty, and is a violation of the principles of religious freedom."
Mr. Baines did not ask the House to pass this resolution. He prayed the House to abolish Church-rates or to exempt Dissenters from the payment of them, and to put an end to the jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts. He only prayed for an alteration of the law. Let the House, then, attempt an alteration of the law if they thought fit, but to pass a resolution vindicating one individual for a violation of the law, and sanctioning that violation, was perfectly different from condemnation of the law and attempting to alter it. As to the question of the policy of Church-rates, he had, on a former occasion, given his opinion, and he would not enter upon a discussion of it now, as he considered it perfectly distinct from the present question. He entreated the House to bear in mind the danger of the principle they were called upon to establish. He asked them 10 do so for the sake of their own authority; for if the House of Commons assumed to itself the right to determine in what cases the law should be violated, and in what respected, their own authority would be questioned and condemned, and they would not be enabled to support their own decrees. The courts of law were bound to submit to the law, and not to the orders of the House of Commons; and if they passed this resolution, they would, in the first place, be setting a precedent pregnant with the most dangerous consequences; and, in the second place, they would prove the inefficacy of their own power; for when
388
they had passed this resolution, it might indeed lead to an alteration of the law; but while the law remained, it must be obeyed, if they would secure the liberty of the subject.
Mr. Elliottbegged, in giving his vote, to say, that he must not be understood to compromise himself upon the subject of Church-rates, while giving a vote in opposition to a motion made in favour of a person who had set himself against the law of the land.
Mr. Easthopesaid, that the country would be likely to imagine, from the manner in which Mr. Baines, and those who, like him, had resisted the payment of Church-rates, and suffered for that resistance, had been designated by the House, that those who supported the resolution were exerting themselves in behalf of a capricious individual who alleged that he had conscientious scruples, and, therefore, demanded to be excused from obedience to the law. Now, he asked was that a fair statement of the case? Mr. Baines acted in strict pursuance of the spirit of a resolution agreed to by that House, a resolution which the House had pronounced in a similar case, and which resolution asserted, in effect, that the punishment to which Mr. Baines was subjected was undue, unmerited, and improper. Mr. Baines had not violently, captiously, or riotously infringed the law; on the contrary, he had yielded obedience to the law. He was at that moment suffering one of the severest penalties of the law, and he came to that House to tell them that he was suffering such penalty, and to appeal to their justice and consideration, and to ask whether it was a proper penalty for that which, although the law pronounced to be an offence, he had a right to consider not opposed to the expressed sense of that House. He further told the House that he had acted under the impulse of conscience. He was not a capricious, captious, disobedient individual, but he was a conscientious—a really conscientious man. He had not resisted a claim as a mere question of money, but he questioned the principle on which the money was demanded, and so he (Mr. Easthope) ventured to tell that House, backed by the avowal of 30,000 persons, in one form or another—the majority of Mr. Baines's neighbours. Now, he (Mr. Easthope)would ask whether, in a British House of Commons, the conduct of Mr.

389
Baines ought to be described to the world as the act of a capricious man, under a fancied notion that he had scruples of conscience, and improperly asking, in consequence, to be exempted from obedience to the laws? Mr. Baines had told them, as he had a right to tell thorn, that the state of the law had subjected him to grievous oppression. He told them, as they had been told by all the large town? in the kingdom, that the state of the law was such that it could not be enforced. He should like to see it attempted to In-enforced according to the interpretation put upon it by the hon. and learned Member for Cardiff. lie felt himself placed in some difficulty by the pledge he had given not to go into the gem-rat question of the abolition of Church-rates; and here, in reference to what had been said by the hon. Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. Inglis) he begged leave to state, that he had most faithfully adhered to his pledge. What ever inconvenience it had caused him, he had adhered to the specific question of the case of Mr. Baines, and had carefully avoided entering into the general question, He did hope that the Dissenters, and all those who felt with the Dissenters, for they were not alone in their feeling respecting this impost, and of this fact he could adduce the town of Leicester as a strong proof—he did hope, notwithstanding what had been stated in that House, notwithstanding that they might subject themselves to the character of capricious individuals who sought to disobey and oppose the law, that entertaining as they did conscientious objections, to this impost, they would manifest those objections, that they would represent respectfully, obediently, but firmly and unflinchingly, the sorrow and suffering they experienced under the law as it stood, until that House yielded to the expression of that sorrow and suffering—suffering and wrongs which at present prevailed, to the oppression of conscience, the injury of society, and the danger of the Church itself.
Mr. Halfordbegged to vindicate the people of Leicester from the imputation of partaking of the spirit in which the opposition to Church-rates was carried on. He felt himself entitled on the part of the great proportion of the people of Leicester to repudiate the assertion.
Mr. Easthopesaid, that be had not spoken of the entire town of Leicester,
390
He had stated that 30,000 of the inhabitants concurred in opinion with Mr. Baines, and he had evidence of the fact. Twenty thousand of the inhabitants had unanimously elected Mr. Baines a town-councillor since he had been thrown into prison. Seven thousand females had signed an address in his favour; and he had presented a petition, containing four thousand signatures, praying for his release; and he thought, under these circumstances, that he had not overstated the number of those who concurred with Mr. Baines in opinion.
The House divided:—Ayes 40; Noes 45:—Majority 5,

List of the AYES.

Barnard, E. G.

Pechell, Captain

Berkeley, hon. H

Philips, M.

Brocklehurst, J.

Salwey, Colonel

Brotherton, J.

Scholefield, J.

Dennistoun, J.

Stansfield, W. R. C.

Duke, Sir J.

Strickland, Sir G.

Duncombe, T.

Strutt, E.

Dundas, C. W. D,

Style, Sir C.

Ellis, W.

Tancred, H. W.

Evans, G.

Thornley, T,

Fielden, J.

Turner, R.

Greg, R. H.

Warburton, H,

Hector, C.,J.

Ward, H. G.

Hindley, C.

White, A.

Johnson, G,

Williams, W.

Lushington, C.

Wood, G. W.

Marsland, H.

Wood, B.

Martin, J.

Yates, J. A.

Morris, D.

Muskett, G. A.

TELLERS.

O'Connell, J.

Easthope, W.

Pease, J.

Hume, J.

List of the NOES.

Adam, Admiral

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Alston, H.

James, Sir W.C.

Baldwin, C. B.

Jones, J.

Bolling, W.

Mahon, Lord Visct.

Broadley, H.

Maunsell, T. P.

Bruges, W. H. L,

Melgund, Viscount

Burr, H.

Miles, W.

Campbell, Sir, J.

Miles, P. W.S.

Chetwynd, Major

Morgan, O.

Darby, G.

Morpeth, Viscount

Drummond, H. H.

Nicholl, J.

Estcourt, T.

Packe, C. W.

Farnham, E. B.

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Gisborne, T.

Pusey, P.

Gladstone, J. N.

Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Rolleston, L.

Grimsditch, T.

Rose, rt, hon. Sir G.

Halford, H.

Round, C. C.

Hope, hon. C.

Russell, Lord J.

Hope, G. W.

Seymour, Lord

Howard, P. H.

Teignmouth, Lord

391

Trotter, J.

TELLERS.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Stanley, E. J.

Worsley, Lord

Elliott, hon. J. E.

Resolution negatived.
Adjourned.

MINUTES
Bills. Read a first time;—Mutiny; Marine Mutiny; East-India Rum.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of Argyle, from various places against Church Patronage (Scotland)—By the Duke of Cleveland, from Stockton, in favour of Drainage of Towns Bill.—By the Bishop of Bangor, from Anglesea, against the union of the Bishoprics of St. Asaph and Bangor.

POOR LAW (IRELAND)—CLONMEL UNION.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, before his noble Friend opposite moved that the examination of Mr. Stanley be resumed, he felt it right to state to their Lordships, that he had received a letter from Mr. Shaw Lefevre, one of the Poor-law Commissioners, as to the omission of a paragraph in one of the letters which had been laid on their Lordships' Table, relative to the appointment of Mr. Butler as returning officer to the Clonmel Union. Mr. Lefevre stated, that himself and Mr. Lewis had looked over the returns to that House, and had approved of the omission of the paragraph in question, as it had not the slightest relation to any matter conducted either with the election of the returning officer for the Clonmel Union, or to any proceedings connected with the Poor-law. Their Lordships had the letter now printed in their hands, and the passage in question merely stated, that the writer had seen the Attorney general three times, who had seemed well-disposed towards him, but that nothing had been done; and requesting that the person to whom the letter was addressed, would, if he saw the Attorney-general, remind him of the matter. Under these circumstances' the Poor-law Commissioners omitted that portion, the last paragraph of the letter, which they conceived to be of a private nature. With respect to Mr. Nicholls, his impression was the same as that of his noble Friend, that that gentleman's absence from Ireland would be very inconvenient. There were, however, important matters that would detain him in town a few days longer; and he announced this, on the part of Mr. Nicholls, in order that any noble Lord who thought fit might have an opportunity of examining that gentleman.
The Duke of Wellingtonthought it was better that Mr. Nicholls should appear at the bar. One point had struck him forcibly when the noble Marquess was reading the extract from the letter. It was obvious, he thought, from that let-

335
ter, that this Mr. Butler was a dealer in politics; and, if his recollection served him, that on which the Poor-law Commissioners for Ireland most prided themselves, that which they had said over and over again, was, "We must take care to have nothing to say to politicians;" and yet, with that letter before them, they appointed this person. That showed how necessary it was that the act of Parliament should be obeyed, and that all the motives of appointment should be inserted on the records; so that, when any one complained of those appointments, they should have before them the whole of the proceedings. They ought to have possession of every part of the records, in order that they should know really what had been the motives for these appointments, and what the character of the individual appointed. The clause in the act of Parliament was little obeyed in Ireland, and, he feared, as little in England. The consequence was, that it was impossible to trace any act of the commissioners. They were in the hands of this board, who possessed unlimited authority to do what they pleased, and who kept no regular record of their transactions.
Lord Ellenboroughcould not agree with the noble Marquess when he said, that the concluding paragraph of this letter was unconnected with the appointment of Mr. Butler. His impression was, that when Butler inserted the paragraph in his letter to Mr. Phelan, the idea of the writer was, that if Mr. Phelan showed it to the Attorney-general, the latter would say—"It is true he has been of use to me in Clonmel, and he is a very troublesome fellow. It would be quite as well to get rid of him at once; and if you can give him the place, it would be a great relief to me."
The Marquess of Normanbyperfectly agreed with the noble Lord, that, on the face of the letter, it would appear that Mr. Butler was a political partisan. At the same time, he believed, that the commissioners were, bonâ fide most anxious to appoint persons as little conversant with politics as was possible in Ireland. The noble Earl could not say that Mr. Fennell, the opponent of Mr. Butler, was not well known as a political partisan.
The Earl of Glengall: I can say so positively, but his brother is.
The Marquess of Normanbyhad certainly heard the name of Fennell often mentioned in connexion with the party politics of Clonmel,
The Earl of Glengall: That is Mr. Fennell's brother.
The Marquess of Normanbydid not think that there were two Fennells; but he knew that there was one of the name a partisan, if not two. There was no proof at present, that the commissioners ever saw the letter of Mr. Phelan.
Lord Fitzgeraldsaid, the statement of the noble Marquess was at variance with that of the witness Stanley, for he bad informed them that it was understood that the appointment had taken place on the recommendation of Mr. Phelan.
The Earl of Glengallsaid, Mr. Phelan must have known that Mr. Butler was a politician, for he either proposed or seconded the Member for Clonmel.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, there was nothing to show that the Poor-law Commissioners knew that he was a politician.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, Mr. Butler seemed capable of producing evidence of an extraordinary and contradictory nature, for in one of his letters he stated to the Poor law Commissioners not only that he did not attend any political meetings, but that he did not belong to any political party whatever.
The Earl of Glengall The Earl of Glengall moved, that Mr. William Stanley be called to the bar.
Mr. Stanleywas re-examined at great length. Mr. Wordsworth, a clerk in the Poor-law commissioners office in Dublin was also examined. The evidence was ordered to be printed, and the House adjourned.