Sitting of 11 March 1841

Preamble
MINUTES. Petitions presented. By Mr. W. Evans, Mr. R. Currie, and Mr. G, W. Wood, from Derbyshire' Northamptonshire, Kendal, and other places, for the Abolition of Church Rates.—By Mr. Hodges, from Crondall, Goudhurst, and other places, against the New Poor-law Amendment Bill.—By Mr. Gillon, from a place in Scotland, for the Extension of the Births, Marriages, and Deaths Act to Scotland.—By Mr. Darby, Mr. O. Knight, Mr. Bowes, Mr. E. Buller, and others, from Southampton, and a great many other places, against the Poor-tow Amendment Bill.

SEVERN NAVIGATION.
Mr. Estcourtwished to call the attention of the House to the report presented yesterday by the committee of selection. It would be remembered that the day before yesterday it had been moved and carried that it be an instruction to the committee of selection to consider whether the rule usually adopted in ordinary cases of private bills, of referring such bills to a select committee chosen from names in the Speaker's list of Gentlemen connected with the particular counties to which such bill referred, together with certain other gentlemen connected with such localities, should be adopted in the case of the Severn Navigation Bill, or whether in the committee on that bill it would be better entirely to omit all those whose names appeared in the Speaker's list, to have it composed of gentlemen entirely unconnected with the localities to which the bill related. The committee in consequence of that instruction had met yesterday, and had agreed to a report, to which he now wished to direct the attention of the House. The report stated,
"The committee of selection having, in obedience to the direction of the House, taken into consideration their Order of the 9th inst. "That it be an instruction to the Committee of Selection, if they see fit, to refer the Severn Navigation Bill to a select committee," beg to report the difficulties they have experienced in endeavouring to carry into effect what they understand to be the intention of the House.
That the above instruction appears necessarily to imply the exercise of a discretion, on

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their part as to the propriety of referring the bill to a select committee, or allowing it to proceed in the course prescribed by the standing orders; a discretion which it is obvious could not be satisfactorily used without a full knowledge of all the circumstances of the case.
Your committee having been appointed, not for the purpose of enquiry, but for the discharge of simple duties specified in the standing orders, are not invested by the House with the power of sending for persons, papers, and records. Having therefore no means of calling for evidence, and no documents having been referred to them on the subject of the Severn Navigation Bill, your committee would submit to the House, that they are not in a position to form a judgment on the question referred to them.
Your committee wish further respectfully to submit to the House, that, even were they invested with the necessary powers for conducting an enquiry, they cannot but entertain great doubt whether it would be expedient to charge them with such a duty, inasmuch as they fear that previous enquiry into the circumstances of a bill, involving the necessity of hearing the parties, and coming to a decision between them, might have a tendency to diminish the confidence reposed in their impartial selection of the Members to serve on the committee on the Bill."
He quite concurred with the committee, and could not but think that it was impossible for them to exercise any discretion respecting the matter of the instruction. It was a great object that persons should be selected who were perfectly unbiassed and uninstigated by any partiality. He had lost no time in stating to the House these preliminaries to the motion he had to submit, which was, that the order of the 9th of March should be discharged.
Mr. Laboucheresaid, that the statements of the hon. Member opposite must satisfy the House that the Committee of Selection had done all that they could do. To those Members who were present yesterday he need not say, that he had heard with regret the decision which the House came to, as he considered it was likely to break down those rules which the House had previously made. He could not but think that the course taken by the Committee of Selection had rescued the House from a situation of great perplexity. He concurred with the arguments of the hon. Gentleman, and would support his motion. He thought the House was greatly indebted to the Committee of Selection for the course they had adopted.
Order discharged.

DEPOSITS ON SHARES.
Mr. Warburtonrose to move "That the evidence taken before the committee on petitions for private bills relative to the Stafford and Rugby Railway Bill, be laid on the Table of the House, and printed." He begged the attention of the House while he stated the facts of the case very shortly. Two years ago a railway was projected to pass from Stone to Rugby, and the ten per cent, deposit required by the standing orders was made. The Session having closed without the bill having passed, the deposit was taken from the Exchequer, and lodged in a bank at Manchester. During 1840 that deposit remained untouched. In the beginning of 1841 a new proposition was made: it was, to make the railway from Stafford to Rugby, a petition for which was now before the House. When this plan was first agitated a meeting was held of the old and new proprietors, an agreement was come to, and a deed prepared and executed. The ten per cent, paid into the bank of Manchester was to be the fund out of which the ten per cent, of the new company was to be subscribed. All the shareholders of the old company who did not think proper to join the new one were to receive back, after the accounts were audited, the ten per cent, they had deposited, deducting the payment of expenses. But all the shareholders of the old companies who became shareholders of the new were liable at a future period to the directors of the old company who had advanced the sum necessary for the current expenses of the undertaking. They were liable personally to pay back their proportion of these expenses, amounting to something more than fifty per cent, on the amount of the deposit. The provisional directors of the old company having made that arrangement, gave the shareholders who joined the new company a draft for the full amount of their shares, and they paid their drafts into the bank of Manchester, on behalf of the new company. Now, although the standing orders said, that a deposit of ten per cent, was to be paid, and that three-fourths of the subscribers should have paid their shares on such deposits, yet they did not lay down any rule that the shareholders should not borrow the money for so doing. Under these circumstances he thought it exceedingly desirable, in order that the House might understand the working of the standing

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orders, that the evidence taken before the select committee should be printed.
Mr. R. Palmer,having been a member of that committee, was anxious to offer a few observations to the House. The only ground on which he thought it unnecessary to print the evidence was, that the hon. Gentleman had stated the facts so fully and clearly that the printing of the evidence would add very little to their information.
Mr. Greenesuggested, that the words "minutes and proceedings" be inserted in the original motion.
Mr. Laboucheretrusted that his hon. Friend would not ask the House to depart from the usual course adopted in cases of this kind. Unless some very special reasons were assigned for a departure from the usual course, he (Mr. Labouchere) would think it his duty to oppose any attempt at such a proceeding.
Mr. Warburtonwould, for the present, withdraw the motion, but said that he should bring it forward at another time in a different form.
Motion withdrawn.

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND).
Lord Stanleysaid, he would take the present opportunity of redeeming the pledge he had given on a former evening—that within a sufficient time of the period for which his bill for registration of voters in Ireland stood fixed, he would state to the House the course which he intended to pursue respecting it. He had given the matter the fullest consideration in every point of view, and, as his only object was to proceed with the bill in that way which he thought most likely to conduce to its becoming the law of the land, and looking at the small majority by which the House had affirmed the principle of the bill of his noble Friend the Secretary for Ireland, he would now, with leave of the House, move, that the order of the day for which his bill now stood be discharged, for the purpose of fixing it for the 28th of April, in the full understanding and confidence that the Government would adhere to its declared intention of proceeding to the full discussion of its own bill on the 23d of April, for which they had fixed it.
Order of the Day for the second reading of the bill discharged, and fixed for the 28th of April.

EDUCATION OF THE WORKING CLASSES.
Mr. Gillonrose to bring forward his motion on the subject of making grants of public money to Mechanics' Institutes in various parts of the empire. He had to request the indulgence of the House while he endeavoured to direct its attention to a matter which he considered of great importance to a very large body of the people. Every discussion of the question must ultimately tend to beneficial results; and if on the present occasion he failed in his motion, from the reluctance of Government, or from any other cause, he had the satisfaction of reflecting that it had at least been brought under the consideration of Parliament. His great object was to promote mental improvement by the instruction of the labouring portion of the population; to accomplish this end was a paramount duty on the part of every government, and a duty which could not be much longer neglected. His attention had been called to the subject last Session by an application from the School of Arts of Edinburgh, praying assistance from the public purse; and here he wished to correct a misapprehension that by schools of art he meant schools of design: no doubt schools of design were included in the mere general terms of schools of art, but he referred to what were ordinarily called Mechanics' Institutes. A large part of the working population of the city of Edinburgh had been instructed, as was stated in the memorial of the council of the School of Arts, in algebra, mathematics, and a variety of useful knowledge. But he would read from that memorial a passage on the subject. The hon. Member read the following extract from a paper entitled the case of the Edinburgh School of Arts.
"The Principles of Natural Philosophy and of Chemistry, together with Architectural and Mechanical Drawing, and Modelling in Clay, as the standard subjects of instruction in that Institution. For the illustration of the lectures and lessons on these several subjects, an extensive collection of apparatus, models, casts, &c, has been made; and a library, consisting of works of science, theoretical, and as applied to the arts, to the amount of several thousand volumes, has been formed for the use of the students. Nearly 8,000 persons have enjoyed the benefit of this instruction."
All that, (continued the hon. Member), the institution had done, not with standing the inadequacy of its funds. The Directors came with the more grace before the House, when it was considered that the University of Edinburgh, and the Royal Society of

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that city, both of which were devoted to the improvement of the higher classes, had derived some assistance from the public funds. The first application was to the committee of the Privy Council on education; but it was evident that they could spare nothing from the miserable pittance annually voted to them. The Directors then addressed themselves to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and to the President of the Board of Trade; but the answer was, that however well disposed they might be to promote these institutions, they had no money at their disposal for the purpose. To prove the practical benefits which the Edinburgh School of Arts, on the solicitation of the Directors, had conferred on the people of Edinburgh; he would quote a short passage of the last report of the Directors:—
"Though the number who avail themselves of the privileges thus held out to them is small, yet it is extremely satisfactory to know, that of those who do, most are now in situations very different from what they originally were, and which they acknowledge to be owing in a great degree, to the valuable instructions they received by attendance at the School. Of these, James Hope, formerly a joiner, is now resident engineer at the Bolton and Leigh Railway; John Hislop, also a joiner, is now a teacher in the grammar school, Burntisland; and Thomas Charles, formerly a cabinetmaker, now holds a responsible situation in an architect's office."
The refusal of Government to advance money had led him to look into the question in a general point of view, and to consider the fitness of affording pecuniary assistance for moral improvement in large populous manufacturing districts. He had reflected upon the propriety of carrying forward the business of education after parties had left school, before the energies of the mind were enfeebled by a close application to mechanical arts, and before the grovelling and ignoble pursuits of manual labour had rendered the faculties less capable of improvement. The object of these Schools of Arts was not solely to fit the mechanic the better for his particular line of business, or to enable him to produce by his labour a greater quantity of goods to bring to the market, the great and the better object was to afford to the labouring man a wholesome instructive occupation during his hours of leisure. He could not enforce this better than by reading a short extract from an address by Mr. Hugo Reid, the brother of Dr. Reid, to whom hon. Members were so much in-
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debted for their comfort in that House, and some remarks made by the president of the Edinburgh School of Arts on the opening of that institution in October last. Mr. Hugo Reid said,
"It is not during the hours of labour, but during those of recreation, that idle and pernicious habits are acquired, and to occupy our leisure hours in a rational and improving manner, is the surest mode of preventing the growth of those noxious weeds that overrun every waste and uncultivated mind. It is universally felt, that the pursuits of literature and science tend eminently to refine and civilize—to raise the standard of mind—elevate above grovelling pursuits, and impart dignity of character and self-respect."
Mr. Reid also said:—
"We often hear knowledge and education recommended, that its possessors may have a chance of succeeding better in their worldly career, of rising in the world. This is one of the most common inducements held out to incite to its acquisition, and is generally illustrated by the instance of some individual, who by the aid of superior knowledge, has risen to a high state from very small beginnings; but this is not the proper motive; besides, if all were educated which should be on a par, there would be no advantage, no distinction, except that of natural talent; though all, however, cannot be raised to wealth and dignity, all may by knowledge extend their sources of personal pleasure, and thus make themselves wiser, happier, and better in whatever condition they may be."
The rev. Mr. Rennie said in his opening address:—
"But if you can explain to these persons the reason why they are to do this or the other acts necessary to the right management of the machine, is it not proper, to do so? Is not this right conduct on your part towards them? Is not this to treat them as rational beings, possessing powers which enable them to reason from causes to effects, and from effects to causes? Is not this a becoming homage to that intellectual nature, which, in them as well as in you, is the noblest product of infinite power in this lower world?**One of the principal objections to these institutions formerly was, that they might tend to make men discontented with their condition in society, and to foster a spirit of insubordination. I do not believe, that this objection is now insisted on, either so frequently or with so much force as it once was. This may probably be attributed partly to continued reflection on the subject, and partly to the light which experience has thrown on the working of these institutions. How the diffusion of knowledge should make men discontented, it is not easy to perceive, except on the supposition, that the working classes are treated

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with injustice, and that knowledge will acquaint them with their wrongs."
Such were the views of those Gentlemen in which he entirely coincided; he contended, therefore, that to carry forward education, and to elevate the moral standard of the bulk of the people, was a subject well worthy of the attention of the House. Instead of wasting time upon party welfare, as had been the case during the last three or four sessions, to such an extent as to impede the progress of useful legislation; instead of pursuing a course which had brought the House into contempt out of doors, and had induced the people to believe that it assembled merely for the decision of who should, or should not, hold offices of honour and emolument, it would be far better if it devoted only a small portion of its labours to devising the best means of removing restrictions upon free trade, of educating and meliorating the condition of the lower orders, and thereby enabling them to enjoy the rich blessings by which Providence had surrounded them. Then, indeed, the House would entitle itself to the gratitude of the nation, and might truly claim the title of a national benefactor. He would direct the attention of the House to a few of the votes of the last session. Large sums were given to the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, Dublin, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen, and St. Andrew's. A vote had also been passed in favour of the Museum of Economic Geology, and 2,410 l had been expended upon pictures for the National Gallery, Among other items in the estimates were 25,000 l. for the support of captured negroes; 30,000 l for negro education; 61,000 l for the Niger expedition, besides the interest on the twenty millions to the West India planters. Having given these large sums for the benefit of the negro population, he thought he had a right to claim something for the vast and energetic of our own population. Then he found that 73,000 l had been given for convicts at home and at Bermuda, 235,000 l for convicts in New South Wales, 5,000 l for the imprisonment of juvenile offenders, and various other sums of a similar character. Yet while all this public money had been disposed of, little or nothing had been done for the prevention of crime; and in his opinion it would be a piece of wise economy if, by elevating the character of the lower orders and raising their moral worth, the commission of crime were rendered less frequent. The great body of
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the people forme the bone and sinew of the constitution, the broad bask of the grand pyramid of the state. Another reason for asking assistance from Government was, that owing to the difficulties under which many Mechanics' Institutes labour, the benefits they were intended to confer did not reach the class most requiring those benefits. In fact, it appeared by the report of the Glasgow Mechanics' Institution, that the majority of the pupils who attended last year, were from the middling, and not from the lower classes. By the report of the Edinburgh School of Arts, it appeared that the Directors were under the necessity of augmenting the fees which would have the effect, he was afraid, of still further diminishing the attendance of the working classes who were ill able to pay for their own instruction. The Directors said,
"The subscribers will perhaps remember, that some years ago the fees for the different classes were reduced from five shillings to two shillings and sixpence, with the exception of those for drawing and modelling. Though this occasioned an increase in the number of pupils, it diminished the income arising from the fees. The Directors have, therefore, resolved again to raise the fees."
He was particularly anxious, the hon. Member continued, that the working classes should participate in the advantages in proportion to their numbers; and if assistance were granted even on a wide scale, the demand on the public purse could not be great. The difficulties of the Mechanics' Institutes were usually occasioned by debts contracted for erecting buildings. Such had been the case at Glasgow and Edinburgh. The report of the School of Arts in the letter to which he had before quoted, gave the following account of its funds:
"In the session of 1838–39, the income amounted to 220 l, or nearly so; while the expenditure was 336 l In 1839–40, the income was 323 l, and the expenditure 360 l, thus making the expenditure greater than the income by upwards of 50 l each year. In addition to this, the subscribers must also bear in mind, that from the very heavy expense lately incurred in fitting up the new rooms, and from the receipts being for many years before that time far below the expenditure, it was absolutely necessary to draw from time to time on the fund laid aside for building; by which, along with the less sustained by that fund being in the hands of the City trait, not only has the whole of it been exhausted, but a debt to the extent of upwards of 100 l has been incurred.

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If the House would afford relief from these burdens, it would enable most of the Institutes to proceed with renewed vigour, and confer the roost important benefits. Here he would remind the House of the paltry sum annually voted for the education of the juvenile portion of the population, and would ask why something was not done to improve their faculties after they quitted school. Reverting to the general question of the claims of the lower classes, he would inquire—who bore the great burden of the forty-five millions yearly raised in taxes for the State? Was it the rich few? No: the assessed taxes, on the one hand, and the Customs and Excise duties on the other, would afford a sufficient answer. It was the labouring population that maintained national credit. They not only manned but paid, the fleets and armies of the country, and they were preeminently worthy the attention of the Legislature. "Do not, for Heaven's sake (concluded the hon. Member) let us teach the people that, while their skill, industry, and enterprise support the State, that State is so meanly spirited, that it will do nothing for them in return. I beg leave to move,
"That this House will upon Wednesday, the 17th day of March, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, to consider of the following address to her Majesty, that is to say, that a humble address be presented to her Majesty, slating that there were voted by estimates for the year 1840–41, the following sums:—For the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, 2,000 l; University of St. Andrew's, 1,009 l 13 s. 4d.; King's and Marischal Colleges, Aberdeen, 1,974 l. 0s. 8d.; University of Glasgow, 1,360 l; University of Edinburgh, 2,580 l; Royal Society of Edinburgh, 300 l; Royal Irish Academy, 300 l; Royal Hibernian Academy, 300 l; Royal Dublin Society, 5,300 l; Belfast Academical Institution, 1,950 l, in addition to various privileges and advantages enjoyed by various learned societies; to represent that while considerable sums are voted for the higher branches of education, in the benefits of which the higher and a portion of the middle classes participate, her Majesty will be pleased to take into consideration the great benefit that would result to the working classes if some assistance, such as her Majesty might deem best, were afforded in populous towns, towards the support of museums of natural history and works of art, and towards the maintenance of schools of art, in such manner as would aid the efforts of the community in the prosecution of these objects; and to assure her Majesty that this House will make provision for such assistance as her Majesty may be graciously pleased to direct."
Mr. Labouchereobserved that certainly he would not yield to the hon. Gentleman in his sense of the deep importance of the subject then before the House, nor in his opinion that it was the duty of the Legislature and of the Government to employ every means in their power to spread a knowledge of art, as well for the improvement of the general taste of the people as to contribute to the stability and the progress of our manufactures. Upon every ground, moral, political, and commercial, he knew of no duty that was more incumbent on the House and on the country; but at the same time he entertained the strongest objections to the motion of the hon. Gentleman on account of the terms in which it was worded. He thought that this was a question which deserved to stand on its own merits, without any comparison between the sums that were given to one class or to another. The House might be right or wrong in voting any sums in support of the universities and of a system of education for the higher classes; but that was a subject also to be discussed and decided upon its own merits. He did, therefore, decidedly object to the motion of the hon. Gentleman as it stood, and he hoped that, after the statement which he was about to make, the hon. Gentleman would see that his object would be fully accomplished by leaving the subject in the hands of the Government, rather than by any address to the Crown, which by raising vague and general expectations in many different parts of the country, would, perhaps, paralyze individual exertions. He hoped that he should be able to prove to the hon. Gentleman that her Majesty's Ministers were willing to provide every means in their power for the encouragement of these institutions throughout the country, and especially in the seats of our manufactures; and he trusted that the hon. Gentleman would be satisfied with this expression on the part of the Government. He admited, that, with respect to the schools of art, this country presented a most disadvantageous and discreditable contrast with other countries. When he considered the long and strenuous exertions of the neighbouring power of France, when he considered the exertions which had been made with so much ability and zeal by the Government which, in all that relates to its internal administration, was far in advance of the other

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Governments of Europe—he meant Prussia—and when he considered the enormous interests at stake, he must admit that it was necessary that some improvement should take place in this country. Very recently a beginning, and he hoped a good beginning, had been made, which would, he trusted, lead at no distant period to most important results. It was very easy to say "you ought to spend money in teaching a knowledge of art," bat unless they expended their money on a good system they were running the risk of conferring no advantage. The great thing was to adopt some regular system. Two or three years ago, in consequence of the efforts of his noble Friend, Lord Sydenham, a school of design was established in the metropolis of this country, presided over by a council composed of artists, eminent in their profession, and of such of the principal manufacturers as could be induced to attend, The council had opened the School in Somerset-house, and a class had been formed for the instruction of pupils at a cheap rate in those branches of art which applied to our chief manufactures. Although this school had been established only for three years, and although any one acquainted with the subject was well aware that three years was a very short time to produce any great effect, yet he had no hesitation in saying, from what he knew of this school, that the pupils had already derived great advantage from it, that many were already prepared to become masters of other schools, and he had no doubt that it would become a nucleus for assisting different parts of the country. Very recently, and with the view to the improvement of the art of design upon silk and velvet, which was most important on account of the competition with other countries, it had been proposed to found a district school in Spitalfields. Accordingly, about two months ago, a school of design was established in Spitalfields. He had endeavoured to excite and to encourage the gentlemen connected with that district to take the matter up, and the Government had offered to contribute to its success by every means in its power. Those gentlemen had come forward in the most handsome manner, so that the Government spent a small sum, not exceeding 100 l they had been able to give masters, educated at their own schools, and they had borne part of the expense of
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setting the school going, and of the outfit, and they had gone upon a principle which they thought was a very desirable one to be established; they insisted that, hereafter, all the regular current expenses of the schools should be defrayed by local subscriptions; because, if the Government was called upon to pay the annual expenses over which they had no control, they would bring a very heavy charge upon the public, without any commensurate benefit. But the assistance they could afford consisted of good advice, of furnishing capable tutors, and of providing models; and thus he believed that, with a small expense to the public, the Government could give effectual assistance to the local schools. He should also add, that the council of the school of design were conducting and publishing elementary works of instruction in the various departments of art and manufactures, adapted to the schools of design, very different from mere drawing, but such works as were adapted to the principles of art, adapted to the various manufactures of this country, in a series, imitated very much from the publications of continental Governments, and especially of Prussia. Another way by which he was sure they might afford very important advantage to these schools was, by collecting from all parts—and they were scattered generally throughout Europe—moulds of the most eminent works of art, from which casts could be made, and given or furnished at a cheap rate, to the different schools throughout the country, furnishing to each part the different class of casts suitable to the particular manufacture carried on. There was really in this country none but the most inadequate means for enabling parties who wished to obtain good casts to procure them. The only difficulty was, that the moulds would require so great a space that it was difficult to find rooms in London for them, but inquiries had been made, and this difficulty might be got over. Thus it was that essential service might be rendered to the different schools throughout the country. He did not know that it was necessary for him to detain the House, by going into the subject at greater length. He assured the hon. Member, and the House, that the attention of the council, and of the school of design, and of the Government, was directed to the subject; they would always be quite ready, whenever they saw their

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way clear, to step forward; and he was satisfied, that whenever a good practical scheme should be formed, they would no hesitate to come down to Parliament, and ask for its sanction; for he knew too well he would not say the liberality, but the wise economy of the House, to doubt the result; he was certain they would feel that, as the representatives of a great commercial and manufacturing country, they would be consulting, not only its financial but its commercial prosperity, by supplying, with a liberal hand, the means of carrying into effect such an important object as the improvement of the working classes. He hoped, therefore, that his hon. Friend, after this statement, would not press his motion, for an address to the Crown, but would leave the subject in the hands of the Government, who were willing and anxious to promote its success.
Sir Robert Peel: I cannot refuse compliance with an application which has been made to me, to bear my testimony to the utility of the particular institution referred to by the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gillon), the School of Arts in Edinburgh. My correspondent claims my support upon the ground that twenty years ago I was myself a subscriber to the institution, and that it has answered the purposes which I wished, by subscribing to it, to promote. I will read an extract from the letter which have received, and I will not do the Mouse the injustice to believe, that because this subject has none of the excitement of party discussions, it will turn from it with impatience or indifference.
The letter I have received is to this effect:—
"I have had occasion to know, that (whether the same kind of institutions succeed as Well elsewhere or not, or are as well managed) the School of Arts of Edinburgh has been of the greatest use in aiding numbers of most meritorious mechanics in obtaining a practical knowledge of branches of science essentially useful for the prosecution of their trades, and also in forming habits of useful reading, productive of the very best effects on the character of the young men and others attending the school. The etsablished clergyman of the parish in which its present building is situated, is the president and an active manager of the institution, and several of the most steady practical tradesmen in Edinburgh take the charge of it, assisted by several other individuals of a different station in life. I have the most unlimited confidence in the prudence of its management, in the principles of those who take charge of it, and in their
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means of knowledge as well as fidelity in reporting favourably of its effects. I went over one evening in December to the Institution. I found about twenty lads in the modellingroom (a miserable over-heated attic), actively engaged in modelling, with a view to practical trades, some of them, however, showing considerable talent of a higher order: a very useful, but small library, from which many mechanics are getting out books for their improvement and instruction; and I attended the lecture given that night, which was a part of a course on natural philosophy in illustration of the principles of the mechanical forces, and other important principles daily employed in almost every trade and manufacture. There was an audience of about eighty or one hundred I think, all mechanics and tradesmen, or boys already learning the trades by which they were to gain their subsistence in after life. I can sincerely say, I never witnessed a more interesting sight. It is easy to dress up a description of such a scene; but it is enough to say, that of all ages, from the intelligent, active-looking boy of fourteen, with his open shirt collar, to the graver tradesman of maturer years, I saw them deeply intent on understanding the principles used in their several trades, and most keenly desirous to avail themselves of the information thus afforded to them, for practical purposes. I need not say how important to the cause of good order, to the morals of great cities, and to the respectability of artizans and mechanics it is, to open to them such sources of information in matters so important to them, and how much such habits preserve them from the temptations by which they are surrounded. On promoting these means of improvement we do not wish to supersede, but to aid the higher and more effectual principles of improvement which religious education is to afford. I have not wished to trouble you with any of the printed reports on the subject. I understand that in the year 1822 you subscribed to the institution, a fact I did not know till Saturday."
The writer of this letter is Mr. John Hope, the eminent advocate who has received the highest mark of the confidence and respect of the legal profession in Scotland, by having been elected by the Bar of that country to the office of Dean of Faculty. I cordially agree in the opinions which he has thus expressed, I believe with him that it is of the utmost importance to the cause of good order, to the respectability of artisans, and to the moral of great cities, that you should afford to the working classes the means of useful information and rational amusement. I agree with him, that by promoting such objects, we do not supersede but aid the higher and more effectual principles of improvement which religious education is to afford.
So far as mere considerations of trade and

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manufactures are concerned, we cannot safely neglect these things; we cannot safely allow foreign governments to establish schools of design, and improve the taste and elevate the character of their artisans, and remain inactive ourselves. But there are higher considerations involved. Is it possible to survey the great masses that are congregated, and are hourly increasing in your manufacturing towns; is it possible to consider their present habits and the temptations to evil, to which they are exposed, without feeling deep anxiety, without a wish to soften and improve them by influences, more kindly than laws for their restraint? Depend upon it, if you will provide, not merely food for the mind, but if you will rail them to the enjoyment of pure air and exercise; if you will set apart a public space to which they may resort after the toil of the day, where they may share in the manly sports which were once the pride of this country, you will wean them from vicious indulgence, and sink deep in their hearts the foundations of loyalty and attachment to the institutions by which they are-governed and protected. Give public money for this purpose, if public money be needed. Whatever are our financial difficulties, the outlay will be true economy that promotes the health and improves the habits of your manufacturing population, and brings home to them the practical proof, that they and their present comfort and enjoyment are the objects of your deep solicitude.
But I hope public money will only be required as a stimulus to local exertion; I hope the affluent who are connected with the great seats of manufacture, who have derived and are deriving their wealth from the manufacturing industry of the country; that they will insist upon reserving to themselves the gratifying duty of promoting the social improvement of the working classes, and providing for them the means of rational amusement and recreation.
It may be well to ridicule all this; it may be well to see with perfect indifference countless thousands of rational beings immersed in ignorance and low degrading vices, and to insinuate the charges of irreligion and infidelity against those who would tell a working man of the pleasures or advantages of knowledge; and who would think of substituting some relaxation from labour, connected with mental improvement, for drunkennes and quarrelling, and mere sensual indulgence. I for one
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look down with scorn on such insinuations my consolatory belief is, that by refining the tastes, and improving the habits and manners of those who subsist by the sweat of the brow, you are advancing the cause of morality, advancing the cause of true religion. As Mr. Hope observes, we me not foolish enough or wicked enough to suggest these means of improvement, as superseding religious instruction; but we hope and believe, that they are aids to religious instruction; and that you cannot reclaim men from indolence and vice, without softening their minds, and subjecting them to the higher and purer influence of religious impressions.
There is one material consideration, that must not be overlooked. Great efforts have been made by public authorities, and by individuals, for the education of youth. Every year releases from the restraints of school, thousands and tens of thousands of intelligent boys, into whose hands we thus put the keys of knowledge. We can impose by law no restraint upon the subsequent uses to which those keys may be applied; they give free access to good and evil, and there are many temptations to select that which is evil; if there be no effort made to supply that which is good. But if that effort be made; if there be the ready access to useful knowledge and rational amusement, there is that in the human mind which will secure a preference for the good, and the instruction that has been given to the child, instead of being perverted to evil purposes, will be made subservient to the improvement and the happiness of the man. I do what I can within my own narrow circle, to found education on a religious basis. I insist in every school to which I contribute, on conformity to the doctrines, and attendance on the worship, of the Church, and shall I be told, that I am defeating the purpose for which this early training of the mind was intended, if I extend my care beyond the age of thirteen or fourteen, and endeavour to provide salutary food to satisfy the appetite which I have created?
The Government may do much, no doubt, to promote the objects to which I have been referring. They may, for instance, through their diplomatic agents, form a collection of models of machinery, and thus exhibit to the artizans and manufacturers of this country, the improvements and inventions of foreign ingenuity. Some time since, I made a suggestion to this effect, to the then President of the Board

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of Trade (Mr. Poulett Thomson), and transmitted to him a letter from Mr. Richards, of Birmingham, a gentleman who had had opportunities of very extensive observation in foreign countries, who thought, that we greatly underrated the advances they had made in mechanical skill, and that we might profit by the means of observing from time to time their progress in the application of it. The Government can also procure, with greater facility than individuals, casts and moulds from the best productions of art, and will, no doubt, by the wise measures which it has adopted, and has in contemplation, the formation, for instance, of a central school of design, and the publication of elementary works, on the application of art and science to the various departments of industry, give a great stimulus to local exertion, and direct that exertion into a proper channel. But it is on local voluntary exertion, that the great reliance must be placed, and I feel confident, that when those who have derived, and are deriving, their wealth from manufacturing labour, calmly survey the present condition of the working classes in the great seats of manufacturing industry, the privations which they undergo, and the temptations to vice and sensual indulgence to which they are exposed, they will feel it both their interest and their duty, not only to contribute to the mental improvement of those classes, but to devise the means by which healthful amusement in the open air may be provided for them, by which manly sports and exercises may be encouraged, and some light may thus break in upon the gloom of constant labour and confinement.
Mr. Labouchereagreed that these institutions must mainly depend for their funds upon local subscriptions; but the objects for which Government could do good by affording assistance were the establishment of a normal school for teachers, the publication of elementary works, and forming a good collection of works of art of all kinds that could be adapted to designs.
Mr. Ewartsaid, he was sure that a great majority of the country would be willing to adopt the advice offered by the right hon. Baronet; and he thought that the moral views contained in his speech would be justly appreciated. It gave him great satisfaction to find the tone now used by the Government of this country, for his hon. Friend the Member for Kilkenny, his hon. Friend the Member for Hull, and the right hon. Baronet op-
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posite were Members, five or six years ago, of a committee which had recommended the very principles now advanced by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. But he rose principally upon this occasion to draw the attention of the House to the importance of not confining the schools of design to London, but to make it a central school and a nucleus for local schools. Let it be the centre of a large system, giving assistance to Liverpool, to Birmingham, to Glasgow, and wherever a taste could be formed. This was the plan, supported by Mr. Dyce, of the school of design, and by the handloom commissioners. The facility of communication afforded by railways would enable the easy transport of models and books from one part of the country to the other, and he, therefore, thought that the right hon. Gentleman should make the London School of Design a normal school, and extend aid to its branches, not only in Spitalfields, but throughout the country, adopting the principle of Necker, that art would always repay the sum laid out upon it, with interest. Government could not create these schools, but they could promote the formation of them; and he was sure that the principle would ultimately prevail, and that the expense incurred would be amply repaid, not only in a commercial point of view, but in the improvement of the condition of the people. He could not be guilty of the injustice of omitting to notice the extremely liberal assistance given by the right hon. Baronet opposite to all places of this description. He felt that all those modes of advancing the people of England by providing them with schools of design, and libraries, and mechanics' institutions, would have the very best effects, and he had no doubt whatever that if the advancement in the fine arts were encouraged, Great Britain so far from being behind its continental neighbours in this respect, would speedily rival them, and outstep them in their exertions.
Mr. W. Williamsregretted that notwithstanding the expression which had been given last year of a desire to assist institutions of this kind, so little had been done. The advantageous results likely to proceed from the carrying out of these plans was distinctly proved by the fact that although a school of design had been within these three months established in Spitalfields, it was already attended by a

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very large number of scholars. Notwithstanding the opinion expressed by the right hon. Baronet opposite, that the populations of Manchester and other manufacturing districts should themselves contribute towards the establishment and maintenance of public educational institutions, he could not but express his belief that the scheme would have small success unless it were known to receive the support of the Government. He thought that if 1,000 l were granted to the four chief manufacturing districts in this country, namely, Manchester, Glasgow, Coventry [a laugh], and Norwich—and he mentioned Coventry, because it was in the midst of a large population, engaged almost entirely in a species of manufacture peculiarly requiring the aid of education, by means of schools of design or otherwise—it would lay the foundation of the establishment of most important institutions; and he thought he was not asking too much when he suggested that such a grant should be made. The manufactures of France and Prussia and of other continental states, had greatly improved by reason of schools of design being established in them, supported by the Government; but yet all, with the exception of France, were vastly inferior to Great Britain, and he attributed the great success of that country to the fact of their having had schools of design for many years.
Mr. Wakleysaid, that after the hon. Member for Coventry had called for so large a sum as 1,000 l for the four towns to which he had referred, he must put in his claim for Finsbury. The hon. Member had specifically alluded to Coventry, but he believed that there were about five times as many individuals in Finsbury who were entitled to be amused and entertained as there were in that city. But if the public money was to be voted for the amusement of the people, he thought that they should go upon fair principles, and the amount of the population in various districts might be taken, and the money given applied in proportionate sums. But was there to be any money granted? There had been an exceedingly interesting conversation, and the right hon. Baronet had made a most admirable speech. Considering the position of the right hon. Baronet, he was delighted beyond the power of expression to hear such a speech from him, and he could assure
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the right hon. Baronet that he would be reminded of the sentiments to which he had given utterance when he had changed his position, and when he would have full power to give effect to them. But what would hon. Gentlemen, the Members of the Government, think of this subject to-morrow? Would it enter into their minds at all? They were now fighting for the position which they occupied. They had enough almost to occupy their minds in warding off the blows from hon. Gentlemen opposite, and he feared that in the struggle which they had to maintain they would almost forget the object of the motion of the hon. Member. What the people wanted was money, and not the mere expression of good feeling on the part of this House. It was money they wanted, and without it their object could not be obtained. Would the House give it to them? He believed it would not. It would give them plenty of hopes, of generous feelings, and all that sort of thing; but when they came to the practically useful part of the question, to the lever which would really move the good, the hand would shrink from it. Now why was this? Was it not matter of great importance that the industrious millions should entertain kindly feelings towards this House—and was it not matter of importance that the House should try to devise means for their recreation and relief? Was it not rational that such a motion as this should be made, and was it irrational to expect that it would be opposed? After what had passed, he entreated the hon. Member for Falkirk to withdraw his motion; but before the estimates were voted, again to introduce it in such a manner as to leave it open to no such objection as had now been urged against it. Let there be nothing invidious in it, and let it contain nothing but a prayer for the grant of public money for public purposes. In the course of his daily experience he was frequently thrown amongst persons of the middle classes of society, and there was nothing which he more frequently heard alluded to than the vote of 70,000 l, given the year before last, for the stables at Windsor. He heard of it almost every day of his life, and he heard the vote of 30,000 l, given for the purposes of education, contrasted with it. These things produced great discontent among the people, and the conduct of this House, with reference to the labouring classes,

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had created feelings of indignation and hatred against them. He had that day attended a large meeting on the subject of the Poor-laws, which was called for the express purpose of petitioning Parliament, but what happened there? There was a very great struggle between two parties, but those who had called the meeting were outvoted; there were scarcely half-a-dozen who expressed an opinion that there was any use to petition or remonstrate with this House. They said, "Why should we petition the House of Commons? It does not represent the feelings of the people; there is nothing there but class legislation; we detest and despise the House of Commons; it will coerce us, and we will not petition, because it would be useless." Was this state of things to continue? It was a late hour to begin, but it was not too late to do good. He was sure, after what the right hon. Baronet had said, this motion would receive his best support. He hoped that it would soon be submitted to the House in another shape, and he trusted, from what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade that it would not then be opposed.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that the hon. Member who had just sat down intended to remind him of what he had said at some future time. He would beg to recall to his attention that which he had said, because he thought that there would be no mischief in his doing so. He had said, that the greatest effects were to be produced by independent local exertions. With regard to another subject to which the hon. Member had alluded, he would beg to suggest that those who were fond of alluding, in terms of reproach, to a measure which had been adopted by that House, before they attempted to put their hands into the public purse, had much better supply those immediate wants, of the inattention to which they complained, by means of their own voluntary contributions.
Mr. Humecould assure the right hon. Baronet, if he alluded to hon. Gentlemen around him, that they had not been backward in this respect. With regard to the present motion, he begged to add his request to that of his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, that the hon. Member for Falkirk would withdraw it, because he thought that it would not be well to have it rejected, and that after the ex-
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pressions of interest which had been given on its behalf, it would be better to let the matter go to the country without a division. Nothing could have occasioned him greater pleasure than the manly and liberal manner in which the right hon. Baronet had come forward to secure that great principle which was the subject matter of the present motion. He had shown feelings for the people of the very best order, and it was delightful to hear such sentiments expressed in reference to those from whom, in truth, the wealth of this great nation was derived. He, therefore gave him his sincere thanks for the speech which he had made, and he hoped that he would look with perfect contempt at every attempt made to misconstrue his really benevolent and liberal intentions. It must not be taken- that the Government had been quite so supine, and so careless of the advantages which the people were entitled to demand, as it seemed to be supposed; for although it was true that a grant of no less than 70,000 l had been taken for the erection of stables at Windsor, they had laid out 15,000 l in the course of the last year in effecting an object highly important to the middle and labouring classes in London. Within the last year they had purchased Primrose-hill for the exclusive convenience of the public, and had so secured a most important means of maintaining, to a considerable extent, the health of the city. He said, therefore, that the Government had shown every disposition to secure, in this respect, the interests of the poorer classes; and if they took that interest in the general subject before the House which was due to it, we might soon hold out an establishment which we might challenge the world to equal. He should that day week claim the assistance of the House to obtain the free admission of the public to the national monuments in Westminster Abbey, so long concealed from general view; and he trusted that the House would agree with him in the view that that was an important means to secure the improvement of the public taste. The public health, however, was also a matter requiring the best attention of the Government; and he could not but express a hope that they would take advantage, of giving opportunity for increasing the means of recreation for the poorer classes, by the establishment of pleasure grounds or open spaces in which they

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might obtain exercise, and by means of which the city might be ventilated. He could not hear the subject mentioned of throwing open the national exhibitions to the public, without calling to mind the comparison which had been drawn between the English and French nations, and the assertions which had been made, that the English could not be trusted where any valuable works were deposited. We were now able upon personal observation, to see how unfounded this charge was, for in one particular case no fewer than 25,000 persons had passed through a dwelling in one day, without any mischief being done. Turning, however, to the subject before the House, he must express his earnest hope that the Government, by providing a room for the purposes of mechanics' institutions, would secure the object which was sought, and which he had no doubt would be completed by public subscriptions.
Mr. Gillonreplied, he could not regret that he had brought this subject under the discussion of the House, because that discussion, he was convinced, would produce universal satisfaction throughout the country. With reference to the observations which had been made upon the subject of the form of his motion, he must say that he had not worded it with a view to drawing any invidious comparison, but to justify himself, and the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, if he had agreed to his proposition, for disposing of a portion of the funds in the hands of the right hon. Gentleman in the manner which he proposed. He could not close this discussion without declaring the unbounded satisfaction with which he had listened to the speech of the right hon. Baronet; and he was sure that the sentiments which he had expressed would tend to raise his long-established and deserved reputation even higher than it already stood. In general, he must say, that the motion had been looked at in a too circumscribed view, for it was not a motion only for the establishment of schools of design; his object was, the rational improvement of the working classes in general. He had heard with great satisfaction from the right hon. Gentleman, the President of the Board of Trade, that the mere consideration of money would have nothing to do with the final determination of this question. Following the advice of his hon. Friends he should withdraw his
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motion; but in the event of his not finding some practical steps taken to carry the beneficent feelings which had been expressed into effect, he should take another opportunity of bringing the same question before the House at some future time.
Motion withdrawn.

IMMIGRATION INTO THE COLONIES.
Mr. Mackinnon: In rising on this occasion it is not my intention to dwell long on the subject or to enter into any lengthened details on what is well known. I have no interest whatever in this question, and if her Majesty's Government will take it up I will most readily give way, and certainly something ought to be done. The subject is one of great importance both to our colonies and to the mother country, and it ought to be brought to a final settlement. Either it is desirable to have labourers admitted into our foreign possessions, or it is not; if the former, let us take steps accordingly, if not advisable, let us proclaim that such is the ease. How can you propound any legislative enactments except by a committee? Let the proprietors of land in our colonies know their fate, and if they are to perish, let them perish in the face of day. In the present day, with a reformed Parliament, and a population out of doors quite equal in talent and information to any individuals in this House, how can you legislate on any important question but by the sanction and support of public opinion? How can this be obtained but by collecting all the information which can he produced before a committee of the House who can make their report, attach the evidence to it, and by that means lay it before the country? One is therefore at a loss to perceive why the Government should negative this proposition of mine, which I understand they will do this night. However, not frightened at this threat, I will at once come to the point, and show to the House why there is a necessity to have a committee on the subject. Nothing can prove this more than the discordant sentiments which are entertained on the subject, not only by the Secretaries for the colonies, by the local governors in India, but even by every third person that may be met who entertains a different sentiment from his neighbour on the importance of this question. I will just show the House the various sentiments which have been pronounced on this important question. The late Secretary for the Colonies writes a dispatch to Governor Light, governor

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of Guiana, in which are the following words:—
October 29,1839.
"With regard to the introduction of labourers from India, more than enough has already passed to render her Majesty's Government decidedly hostile to every such project; and the laws now in force in the different presidencies would effectually prevent the execution of this part of the scheme. We are not less opposed to the plan of recruiting the negro population of the West Indies from Africa. Finally, I do not perceive that any provision is made to secure to the emigrants on their arrival a proper reception, or to determine in what manner they shall be settled amongst the different candidates for their services. For all these reasons, I have thought it my duty humbly to advise the Queen to disallow this ordinance, and I have received her Majesty's commands to acquaint you that it is disallowed accordingly have, &c.
(signed) NORMANBY.
Now what says the present Colonial Secretary, the noble Lord opposite me, in a letter dated February 15, 1840, in a dispatch that does him much honour, but yet is at direct variance with the directions of his predecessor in office.
"Having made these observations, I have to add, that I have no indisposition to allow the attempt to be made to recruit extensively the population of Guiana. I will state, in a separate despatch, the modifications I think necessary in an ordinance, to replace that which Lord Normanby advised her Majesty to disallow. Freedom of labour is the general principle, and restriction should be the exception. But in whatever degree I might be disposed to yield to the representations of the merchants and proprietors, whether in this country or in the colonies, I must enjoin upon you to bear in mind, that the happiness of the inhabitants of the colony you are appointed to govern is the chief object. Encourage religious instruction, let them partake of the blessings of Christianity, preserve order and internal peace." (signed) JOHN RUSSELL.
Now without wishing to detain the attention of the House longer on this correspondence, let us advert to the persons holding official situations in our colonies. What says Governor Light, the person directing the government in Guiana, and afterwards what says Sir Andrew Halliday?
"I am convinced that under proper regulations, as to sexes and location, the natives of India might safely be introduced here to the great amelioration of their own condition, and the undoubted benefit of the province, which only requires labourers to make it a second India."
Sir Andrew Halliday also writes as follows:—
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"If all the West-India islands were swallowed up in the ocean, and British Guiana yet remained, it is sufficient of itself to supply the wants of the mother country with colonial produce."
Similar instances of a diversity of opinion may be found in all the correspondence that has taken place between the parties interested in the Government and management of various colonies, and perhaps a still greater discrepancy in opinion exists in the minds of various individuals on this subject, some assert that the Hill Coolies and others will be benefitted by a change, that the climate of Guiana is superior to that of India, that they receive in the latter five rupees a month in place of two rupees. That they are not subject to the devastating dearths, and famines peculiar to the dense population of India, that the climate in the Mauritius particularly is much superior to their native one of India, that they have the benefit of religious instruction in our colonies which they have not in their own country, that they have a day of rest on Sunday. In short, the advocates of immigration make out that all the advantages are in favour of such a permission sanctioned by the legislature. On the other hand, the opponents of the measure at the head of which stand conspicuous Mr. Sturge of Birmingham, and the Society of Friends all oppose such a measure, they assert that you will begin slavery again, that the immigrants into our colonies are little better than slaves, that the work is harder, and no care is taken of the hired labourer, and that in point of fact his condition is not an improvement on slavery. Now who can decide between these conflicting sentiments? how can the Government determine? the colonial Secretary has too much occupation to attend to these details, the Under-Secretary now by his side, cannot find time, as to the other hon. Gentleman, next to him; the Attorney-general, he too has no leisure, he has to attend to his duty in this House, to Westminster-hall, and besides, an occasional excursion to hunt after fees at York, and to pick up a stray case at Manchester. How is it possible, therefore, for the Government to prepare a bill, that can satisfy the country, and unless you satisfy public opinion on this subject, you do nothing, positively, and absolutely nothing. The only plan to pursue, is for you to obtain all the evidence you can on the subject, and lay it before the country, let them decide, and then legislate on the subject. What

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an absurdity to frame in the Colonial Passengers Bill a clause in which you laid down the principle of emigration and yet after laying it down, you are afraid to bring it into operation ! Why did you give directions to the Governor-general of India to institute a committee on the emigration of the Coolies from Bengal, and yet when that committee, which was composed of most respectable individuals, reported in favour of sending out the Hill Coolies, why did you not take notice of that report, dated in October, 1839, from Bengal, when it was made by the express desire of her Majesty's Government. You have I expended millions and millions to extinguish the Slave Trade, an hon. Gentleman, late a Member of this House, asserts, that one hundred millions have been spent; on that question, and emancipation has been carried to the satisfaction of Great Britain and of the civilized world. You have done right. Let not this odious traffic be renewed, let it die for ever. If, however, you can by certain humane, considerate, and good enactments, promote the welfare of the inhabitants of India, or of any other country, that is over-peopled, if you can send labourers to Guiana or to any of our West-India possessions, if you can cultivate 100,000 square miles of land, of which that colony is composed, if you can ameliorate the condition of the sons of India or of Africa, if you can augment their happiness; in short, if by any means the condition of mankind can be ameliorated, or their situation improved, let us do our best in that great work, and unite together to ascertain whether or not it may be in accordance with the welfare of the human species, that labourers should be sent to our colonies. Do not forget, that the British public cannot exist without sugar, if this sugar cannot be obtained from our colonies, slave-made sugar will be required, and then, after all our expenditure in abolishing slavery, slavery will be encouraged. There are no bounds to the productions that may be obtained from Guiana, cotton, indigo, sugar, all the luxuries, all the enjoyments of European life, are found in those regions, if these can be obtained by laws consistent with humanity, well and good, if not, let them be discarded for ever.
Motion withdrawn.—House counted out.

MINUTES
Petitions presented. By the Marquess of Bute, from Bute, Rothesay, and other places, and by the Earl of Rosebery, from Edinburgh, and other places, against the Intrusion of Ministers, and for the Abolition of Patronage.

POOR LAW RECORDS (IRELAND).
The Duke of Wellington: Seeing the noble Marquess (Normanby) in his place, and understanding that there will be no opposition to the motion for papers of which I have already given notice, I will not now trouble your Lordships with any observations on the subject. Your Lordships are aware, that when the Poor-law Amendment Bill passed the House, extraordinary powers were given to the commissioners, but that also measures were taken by Parliament to prevent the abuse of those powers without such abuse coming to the knowledge of the Government, the Parliament, or the public. They were directed to keep an accurate, record in writing of all their proceedings, and no doubt if that direction has been minutely followed, every transaction can be traced from its origin up to the order of the commissioners. I will now therefore move, in consequence of the discussions which have recently taken place, that an humble Address be presented to her Majesty, praying that her Majesty will be pleased to order that there be laid before your Lordships' House a copy of the record in writing of all the proceedings of the Poor-law commissioners relative to the unions of Clonmel, Cashell, Naas, and Mountmellick.
The Marquess of Normanbyhad no objection to the motion, but as he had led their Lordships to expect that Mr. Nicholls would be this day in attendance on the House, he begged to state, that he had to-day received a letter from that gentleman, assigning two reasons for his absence. First, it had happened that he was absent from Dublin at the time the correspondence as to the election of the returning officer of Clonmel took place, and therefore he could give their Lordships no personal information on the subject; and, secondly, at the present moment, in consequence of the elections going on in all parts of the country for guardians, his absence from Dublin would be exceedingly inconvenient to the public service. He thought it right to state, that those letters had been written before Mr. Nicholls had
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heard of the second complaint which had been made, in consequence of which, he had written to Mr. Nicholls, desiring him to come over, at whatever inconvenience, and therefore he hoped that he would be present on Monday. The whole matter, however, could be explained by Mr. Stanley, the secretary to the Poor-law commissioners, who had signed the letter, and who had offered an explanation to him, stating that there was no intention to deceive; and, indeed, he could not see what was to be gained by deception. He admitted there had been some irregularity; but, as the explanation was very complicated, it would be doubtless more satisfactory to their Lordships, to himself, to the Government, and to Mr. Stanley, that that gentleman should have an opportunity of giving their Lordships that explanation himself. Therefore, as soon as the motion of the noble Duke should be disposed of, he would take the opportunity of moving, that Mr. Stanley be ordered to attend on their Lordships on Monday next.
The Earl of Glengall,having brought forward these complaints relative to the Poor-law commissioners, could assure their Lordships that he was fully prepared to substantiate every allegation he had made, by evidence, either at the bar of the House or before a Committee; and as to there being no intention to deceive, he could prove by evidence, that what was done had been done for the express purpose of deception, and for no other.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that that would all come out at the proper time. He had not formed a decided opinion, but had only stated, that upon a cursory examination of these papers, there did not appear to him to be any intention to deceive, and that he could not see what object could be obtained by such deception; but, at the same time, he had stated most distinctly that it was clear an irregularity had been committed.
Motion agreed to.
The Marquess of Normanbythen moved, that Mr. Stanley be ordered to attend the House on Monday next.
Agreed to, but the day was subsequently altered to Tuesday.

ST. SULPICE.
The Marquess of Normanby The Marquess of Normanby moved for a return of a despatch from Lord Amherst to Lord Aberdeen, and of other papers respecting the motion

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of the right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter), standing for discussion on the next day.
The Bishop of Exeterinquired if they were printed?
The Marquess of Normanbyunderstood that they were, and would be delivered tomorrow.
Lord Ellenboroughsaid, that their Lordships knew how difficult a thing it was to read papers and proceed at once to debate upon them. He accordingly thought that it would be desirable for the right rev. Prelate to postpone his motion until Monday or Tuesday next, as there would still be ample time to move the address to her Majesty before the thirty days—the time during which the ordinances had to lie on the Table—had expired. Under these circumstances he would not now press other circumstances which appeared to him to be of the greatest importance, but would merely suggest to the right rev. Prelate that it would be for the convenience of the House if he would accede to this proposal.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, that he was sure their Lordships would not suppose that any personal inconvenience whatever could induce him to state that he was afraid that it would not be in his power to accede to the application that had been made to him. He was at that moment under the orders of the Court of Queen's Bench, having been subpoenaed to attend at Exeter, at the present assizes, and he was bound to leave London early on Saturday morning. Under these circumstances he would venture to suggest to their Lordships that it was rather hard on the eve of a motion of this kind that an application of this sort should be made, the more especially as the attention of the Government had been called to this subject for a period of eight or nine months, and it had not been until the eleventh hour that they had thought fit to lay upon the Table papers that appeared to be important. He was afraid he could not attend on Monday next without disobeying a mandate of the Court of Queen's Bench.
Lord Ellenborough: It can only be a matter of twenty-four hours. The right rev. Prelate could not get there before Monday, and if he postpones his motion he may get there by Tuesday night.
The Bishop of Exetersaid, he was bound, previous to his arrival at Exeter,
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to go to Worcester on business of great importance relating to the Church, and to be in Exeter on Tuesday night. He understood from the noble Marquess these papers were printed, and as he supposed they could, therefore, have them early to-morrow morning, he thought there would be sufficient time to consider them.
The Marquess of Normanbysaid, that the papers had been ordered by the House of Commons, on Tuesday, and he believed that they were now printed.
The Earl of Riponsaid, that the despatch which was referred to, seemed to be held on all sides as of great importance. The question now was, whether they ought to be called on to give an opinion on a very important subject, to which everybody attached the greatest consequence, without their having the means of considering the principles on which the measure rested, and which principles they were told were to be found in a certain despatch which they would not be able to read till to-morrow. He ought to have a perfect recollection of what was contained in that despatch; but, written as it was ten years ago, he could not at that moment undertake to explain to their Lordships either the principles upon which it was founded, or the motives which induced him to advise his Majesty to send that despatch to Canada. Under these circumstances, they ought not to decide on such a question without having more' time to examine into it. If the motion were postponed to the end of the week some arrangement ought, he thought, to be made by her Majesty's Government, as they were concerned in the postponement of the discussion, that the question should be put in the same position as it would have been in if the thirty days required for the ordinance to lie on the Table of the House had not expired. What occurred in the present instance happened last year in the Clergy Reserves Bill. It was impossible to proceed on that occasion without the advantage of an assurance such as he referred to being given by her Majesty's Government; and on the present, if Ministers would give a similar assurance, the right rev. Prelate might be able to postpone the question.
The Bishop of Exeterwould accede to the postponement of the motion until Monday, trusting that, under the circumstances of his attending his parliamentary duties, the judge of assize would consent to

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put off the trial. At all events he (the Bishop of Exeter) would undertake to bring forward his motion on Monday next, and he would accordingly now move, that the order for proceeding with the motion to-morrow be discharged, and that the question be postponed till Monday.
Ordered accordingly.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Earl of Roseberypresented a petition from a very large and influential body of people in Edinburgh, praying for the immediate and total abolition of Church patronage in Scotland. The noble Earl said, that he could give no countenance or support to the prayer of the petition. In his judgment, if the wishes of the petitioners were complied with, it would not remove the difficulties which surrounded the question, nor would it improve the deplorable condition in which that country was now placed with reference to the Church. He thought the mode which the petitioners approved of would turn out to be the worst that could be adopted for insuring a proper choice of Ministers. At the same time, he was decidedly opposed to the intrusion of ministers into parishes contrary to the wishes of the inhabitants.
The Earl of Aberdeenwished his noble Friend to explain how he meant to prevent intrusion. He supposed his noble Friend did not wish that the veto should be legalized. Did he then wish the course which he (the Earl of Aberdeen) approved of to be adopted—namely, that no minister should be rejected without reasons assigned and cause shown—that no minister should be set aside at the mere caprice of the parties intrusted with the power?
The Earl of Roseberysaid, he did not mean to stale what would be the proper remedy against the intrusion of a minister into a parish contrary to the desire of the congregation. Various modes had been pointed out for obtaining that result; but he had not, at any time, made up his mind as to which was the best. Individuals, much better acquainted with the question than he was, and who had considered it deeply, had not, up to this hour, been able to see their way clearly through it. He would not, therefore, be entrapped into saying whether, in his opinion, the legalization of the veto would or would not be the best mode of establishing non-intrusion. He did not give his support
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to the bill introduced by the noble Earl, because, while he gave the noble Earl credit for the goodness of his intentions, he felt that it would not satisfy the people of Scotland.
Petition laid on the Table.
Adjourned.