Sitting of 10 July 1840

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Toll on Lime; Joint Stock Banking Companies.—Read a second time:—Population (Ireland); Prisons (Ireland); Turnpike Trusts; Parliamentary Boroughs; Friendly Societies; Newgate Gaol (Dublin); Assessed Taxes Composition.
Petitions presented. By Mr. D'Israeli, from Southampton, for the Release of Mr. F. O'Connor; and from Maid-stone, against the County Constabulary Police.—By Mr. Warburton, from 250 Printers, against the Copyright Bill.—By Colonel T. Wood, from St. Mary Abbott's, Kensington, against the Parochial Assessment Bill, and the Poor-law Amendment Act.—By Mr. Brocklehurst, from Silk Weavers of Macclesfield, against the Reduction of the Duties on East India Silk.—By Mr. Aglionby, from Dalston, for the Release of Political Offenders; and from Glasgow, for Universal Suffrage.—By Mr. C. Lushington, from the United Secession Synod of Scotland, against Church Extension.—By Sir S. Canning, from Kingston-upon-Hull, to secure the Independence of Cracow.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (SCOTLAND).
On the Order of the day for the House to go into Committee of Supply being moved,
Mr. Wallacerose to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, viz.—
"To call the attention of the House to the report of the select committee, appointed to inquire into the administration of the law in the Supreme Court of Scotland; and to move, that an humble address be presented to her Majesty, praying that in virtue of the provision in the Act 2 and 3 Vic. c. 36, and in consequence of the facts which have been disclosed in the evidence taken before the select committee, appointed to inquire into the administration of the law in the Supreme Court of Scotland, that her Majesty will be graciously pleased to command the thirteen judges of the said Court, to extend the period of their sitting in Court by two calendar months in each year; and that this shall be effected by extending the current summer Session by one month also. Also, to call the at-
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tention of the House to the nature and extent of the duties appertaining to the office of Lord Advocate of Scotland, with a view to their being defined and better regulated."
Availing myself, the hon. Member said, of Unconstitutional practice of this House, I rise for the purpose of bringing forward a case which I consider to be one of grievance to the public, and wish, in the first place, to call the attention of the House to a report which has been lately made to this House on the conduct of the judges of the Supreme Court of Scotland. At this late period of the Session, I shall endeavour to be as brief as the nature' of the case will admit, while I shall, to the best of my ability, bring the question before the House in such a shape as to make it fully understood. The report to which I allude is now in the hands of hon. Members, and, in my humble judgment, is not a report, properly so called, but a running commentary, and there is no one instance in which the Chairman who prepared the report, has ventured to make reference to the particular parts of the evidence on which that report is founded. Sir, in the course of the statement which I purpose to make to this House, I shall not only allude to this report, but to the effect which the office of Lord Advocate has had as regards the judicial business performed in the Courts of Scotland, and also as regards the manner in which the business of Scotland generally is conducted in this House. Sir, I beg to assure the House and my hon. Friend the Lord Advocate, that, whatever I may say respecting his office, I shall endeavour, to the best of my ability, not to forget that position which he holds, and deservedly holds, in the estimation of the country, as a distinguished officer of the Crown, as well as a distinguished member of the College of Justice in Scotland. Many of those who belonged to the committee to the report of which I have alluded are of the legal profession, and I am bound in justice to say, that those who really did attend, gave the most patient and zealous attention to the evidence. The people of Scotland are much indebted to the members of the English and Irish bar who attended, and it will be seen that they, at any rate, fully appreciated the real objects of the committee, which were, to ascertain whether, by improving the system, and increasing with. The other four gentlemen of high

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the sessions, and diminishing the vacations, the number of judges might not be diminished. In the first place, the report from the Chairman, or, more properly speaking, from the Lord Advocate, upon which I am now commenting, the object appears to be, to declare, that great dissatisfaction prevails generally in Scotland as to the administration of justice, and so decidedly has that feeling pervaded the mind of the framer of the report, that the word dissatisfaction occurs not less than thirteen times in the report—there thus being one application of the term dissatisfaction for every judge in our Court. Sir, the witnesses who were brought before that committee, were, as I believe, of a very unusual kind. They were fourteen in number, and in the list there is the present Lord Advocate, the late Lord Advocate Sir William Rae, the late Solicitor-general, now Lord Ivory, Mr. Hope, the Dean of Faculty, who is at the head of the Scotch bar, and Mr. M'Neil, who, I may also say, is at the head of the Scotch bar. Here are five witnesses who have been called to speak to the propriety of diminishing the number of the judges, each of whom is an expectant in the event of a vacancy, according to the political party which happens to be in power at the time. Now, Sir, I say that this is a most extraordinary selection, and one which I must say, being made by my right hon. Friend the Lord Advocate did surprise me. The next witnesses are two official gentlemen, namely, Clerks of Court, and a third is a professional gentleman who filled the office of Secretary to the Scotch Law Commission. Now, if the position of these gentlemen be looked to, and if you are to carry out the principle that no one shall sit on the bench who has any interest in the case to be tried, I insist that the opinions of these gentlemen are not entitled to the weight which they would otherwise have had. On the other hand, I produced only five witnesses out of the fourteen. I thought it vain to seek for witnesses among the profession of advocates, but sought them in the profession known in this country by the title of solicitors, who can have no interest in the situation of a judge. One of these gentlemen admitted, that if the business of the Court of Session was no better done than it is at present, one Court of Review could be very easily dispensed legal information and constant practice in
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the courts, and whose testimony could not be shaken or impugned, distinctly, and in the strongest terms declared, that nine judges would not only do the whole duties of the Court of Session, but would do it in a much more satisfactory manner than thirteen. This evidence should have the greatest credit attached to it, because these gentlemen have no personal interest in the matter, whether there be thirteen or thirty judges, while it signified very much to the first five witnesses, if not to more of them, who at some future period, would certainly be considered eligible candidates for any vacancies that might occur. I will beg the House to look to the proceedings of this committee, and they will there find a circumstance which to me appears quite unprecedented, namely, that a question put by a member of the committee, has been expunged by an unanimous vote of that committee, the Member excepted, who had put the question. Now Sir, I must here read to the House the question so expunged. The question was this, and put by myself:—It appears, among other correspondence in what is commonly called the Corehouse Papers, that Lord Corehouse, having been struck with a permanent infirmity, was not in court after the 26th of January last year, from which date nearly one half of the actual judicial sittings of the long winter Session was unexpired; and he was advised by two of his brethren on the bench, that the Lord President and Lord Gillies."—
Mr. Sergeant Jackson: Sir, I rise to order. I would submit whether it be competent for an hon. Member to read and discuss in the House a question which was considered irrelevant by the committee, and was expunged by them.
The Speakersaid, if he understood the question rightly, it was, whether the hon. Member could read that part of the examination taken before the committee which was expunged, and therefore did not form part of the report. That course might certainly be an inconvenient one, but he was bound to say, that he thought the hon. Member quite in order in adopting it.
Mr. Wallace—Sir, if the rule had been otherwise, where, I would ask, is a Member of Committee to seek for justice? I come here for justice. Now, I will proceed with the question—this is where I stopped:—

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"The Lord President and Lord Gillies, and also by yourself, to retain his situation, and withhold his resignation till after the Summer Session; those two periods of absence being equal, together, to about two-thirds of the judicial year. Can you inform this committee if this advice was offered in the conviction that Lord Corehouse's services could be dispensed with, and that three Judges had been sufficient and would be found sufficient in his absence, to carry on the business of the Court during the long period specified?''
Now, I submit that this was a most proper question, because it goes to prove that the Court had been thoroughly well conducted, and justice duly administered without any fault being found by suitors, the profession, or Judges, during two-thirds of a year, in the absence of that very learned judge. That, therefore, is sufficient to show that one of the judges might be dispensed with. Now, in passing, I may just say, that the evidence which was tendered by the Professor of Scotch Law was of a nature highly creditable to that gentleman's head and heart, and would convince any set of men who look to the subject dispassionately, that the Courts of Scotland now require, and have long been in need of, a great deal of amendment. That learned individual, be it remarked, is a disinterested person; he was not looking for office; he had no expectations of being raised to the bench; he is a distinguished member of the bar; and the evidence is of great importance, as it goes to shew that the whole system of our jurisprudence is extremely defective. The report of the Scotch Law Commission in 1834, is to the same effect, and the same thing will be found upon looking to the volume of the Edinburgh Review, referred to in the evidence which was expunged, the author of the article being none other than the present Lord Jeffrey; and if hon. Members are anxious to pursue the matter further, and will look further into the ninth volume of the Edinburgh Review, a work so obnoxious to some hon. Members of the late Committee, when expressing opinions contrary to their views for the moment, they will there find, even at that distant time, the Court was in the same disrepute as it is now, and in which it will most assuredly remain if the judges are allowed in future to jog on as they do at present, which it is understood is the Lord Advocate's proposal and advice to the Government. On the part of the people of Scotland I insist,
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that the course pursued by the Scotch judges ought to be altered and their number decreased. The present number of the judges in Scotland is thirteen, and it is the general opinion of all but Edinburgh lawyers that nine would be quite sufficient. Sir Islay Campbell, that highly distinguished judge, and many years President of the Court of Session, was of opinion in 1785 that ten judges would be quite sufficient, at which time the business was far greater than it is at the present moment. The business of the Court has been regularly decreasing for forty years; it has decreased in series of years, and continues to decrease year by year; and yet in the face of this there is a determination on the part of the Ministers and the Lord Advocate to maintain the patronage of thirteen judges. It has been made plain that twelve judges, in the absence of Lord Corehouse, did the duties last year by sitting 113 days, and two or three hours daily; and yet it would seem that thirteen judges must be continued. The returns to this House and the evidence in this respect will show the enormous arrear of business in the courts of the Lords Ordinary; but this exists in three courts only out of five, for I am credibly informed, and shall endeavour to prove it by a return, that two out of the five Lords Ordinary are not intrusted with a single case for debate, but merely with matters of routine, quite unfit to occupy any other but Scotch Judges. Thus three Lords Ordinary, sitting 103 days only in the year, perform the whole judicial business of these Courts, to which five judges are appointed. It is thus plain that while twelve did the duties last year, eleven are performing them at present. The suitors are now allowed to choose the judges before whom their causes are to be heard. How long has that been the case? Why, Sir, only two years; it is a late practice. I see my learned Friend the Lord Advocate look with surprise, but I assure him and the House that my statement is true, and that the practice is but a late one. And what is the effect of it? Just this. There are two judges who have not a single cause upon their Debate Roll, and there are several professional gentlemen now present in this House who are conversant with the practice, and may corroborate or contradict my statement. I fully believe it myself, and that it will not be contradicted, Another effect has been,

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that, by way of occupying the short time they sit, and as an excuse for keeping up the full court of thirteen judges, who are said to be so dreadfully hard-worked by sittings of two hours a day, they are occupied in disposing of mere motions of course, which is not, as I have stated many times before in this House, proper judicial business at all, being disrespectful to the judicial station, and ought never to come before them. One of the most accurate and intelligent of the witnesses who appeared before the committee said, upon this point, and respecting the one or two causes allowed to be tried daily, the judges were glad to spread the business they had to transact over as large a space of time as possible, so that they might have an excuse before vulgar and unprofessional eyes for keeping up their numbers. This evidently, and nothing else, was the meaning of the expressions which fell from Mr. Hunter. Then they have another way of passing their time. What do these hard-worked judges do? In place of the same set of men sitting in one court, and adjudicating upon all cases that are brought before them, they have four different courts to run about to; first, there is the Exchequer, then the First Division, then the Second Division of the Inner Court in another place, and the court of Justiciary somewhere else, but all under the same roof and adjoining each other, and all kept up for the mere sake of appearing to have something to do; they thus run about from court to court, shifting their gowns everlastingly, all to fill up time: first, they put on a black gown for one court, then a red one splashed with white, and anon, a white one spotted with something else—this is a positive fact, and is so well known that I did not think it worth while to bring it out in evidence before the committee, or that it is alleged, they are obliged to dress in those various costumes, in order that they themselves may know whether they are adjudicating in Equity or Law. In short, the whole system is a disgrace to Scotland. I may be laughed at because I, the unprofessional intermedler, as they call me, meddle with a professional subject, but I have not spent the last twenty years of my life with my eyes or ears closed. Those professional men who are present will understand when I tell the House, it was made quite plain to the committee, that in making up what is called the Record, there is
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often a certain process gone through for the mere purpose of getting an excuse for forcing the judges to listen to the long speeches of Counsel, so much admired by the learned Lord Advocate. The regular decrease of business has been shown by innumerable returns. Some attempt was made in the committee to throw doubts upon the accuracy of these, but it was totally unsuccessful. Then with regard to vacations and the former hackneyed excuse that the judges had a great quantity of printed papers to read; there is now no such thing, and it is the earnest desire of all parties, both in and out of court, that they should not be. Now there can be no judicial pretence for such long idleness. The learned Lord Advocate led a vast deal of evidence, showing his anxious wish to make it appear that the judges should sit to hear counsel debate matters with which they were themselves sufficiently acquainted and prepared to decide on. Now this is only one other lame excuse for keeping up the irreversible number of thirteen judges to crawl on hearing one case, or, probably, one and a quarter, as is the practice of the two Courts of Review, in a day. Sir, since this matter was last before the House I deemed it my duty to go to Edinburgh and make personal inquiry into the subject, and found that the public were much dissatisfied with the whole working of the system. I would ask where is the necessity for judges sitting as a Court of Appeal, hearing at greater length than to satisfy their own minds the arguments of counsel against the deliberate decision of one of their own number? Considering the previous ample discussion which cases receive before the Lords Ordinary and the printed papers which the judges think necessary to order in a case before them, surely it must be wholly unnecessary, and a mere waste of time, to listen to the long speeches of counsel, which, as the learned Lord Advocate lately said, never exceed fourteen or sixteen hours. Now, Sir, there is one cause of confusion and expence in these courts which is quite unknown in any other court in any country, and that is the way in which counsel are continually taken away from the bar. After a case having been proceeded with, in due form, the counsel is not allowed to go on and finish his arguments, but some one comes from some other court, and taps him on the shoulder, in the manner

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of a tipstaff—and away he must fly to another court, probably to plead a cause which upon some former occasion had been broken off in the same manner. The Scotch judges are exceedingly anxious to hold out the similarity of their duties to those of the Court of Chancery in this country, and are desirous of throwing dust in people's eyes, by comparing the nature of their duties to that of the Court of Chancery. Well, a comparison they shall have. Now, if hon. Members will take the trouble to listen to the Returns I am about to read as to the duties of the judges in Chancery, they will see one of the most extraordinary contrasts that could possibly arise in the advocacy of any question, and I trust this exposé will have the desired effect on the Ministers of the Crown, and on the judges of the Court of Session. By the Return of the Court of Session it appears the Inner houses sit five days in the week, and two hours daily for 113 days in the year. That the Lords Ordinary sit four days in the week, and four hours daily for 103 days in the year. By a Return to this House, dated 30th March, 1840, No. 178, showing the time the Masters in Chancery attend their office, independently of their duties by rotation during the sitting of the House of Lords, it appears that the days of attendance in the year vary from 165 to 221, and their hours from three and three quarters to six hours daily, averaging 188 days, and nearly five hours a day. And it appears, from other sources of information, that the Vice Chancellor and Master of the Rolls;, each sit thirty hours weekly, and the Lord Chancellor twenty-five hours. The case will therefore stand thus:—
Scotch Courts—Inner Houses, 113 days; two hours daily being 226 hours in the year, or a little more than forty-five days of five hours each.
Lords Ordinary—103 days; four hours daily, or 412 hours in the year, or eighty-two days of five hours each.
Court of Chancery—Lord Chancellor, in his judicial capacity as such in the Court of Chancery or in the House of Lords, 200 days of four hours daily, or 825 hours in the year, being 165 days of five hours each.
Master of the Rolls and Vice-Chancellor, about 200 days each, five hours daily; 1,000 hours in the year, or 200 days of five hours each.
Masters in Chancery, each, on an average, sit, besides their attendance on the House of Lords during the sitting of Parliament, 188
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days, nearly five hours daily, being 940 hours in the year, or 188 days of very nearly five hours each.
The House will see from this that, bad as the Court of Chancery is, it is only but half as bad as the Court of Session. The Masters in Chancery get 2,500 l., while the Scotch Judges get from 5,000 l. to 3,000 l. with a vacation of seven months in the year, and the Masters in Chancery get scarcely any vacation at all. Sir, I have already said that three Lords Ordinary do the whole of the duty, and I have said it might have been proved before the Committee that the Court has been managed with twelve Judges only, and virtually now has but eleven. It is then, Sir, very plain that fewer than thirteen Judges have carried on the business of the Scotch Courts. Again, in what way do the Judges fulfil the duty thrown on them in making laws for the guidance of persons practising under them. What have they done towards making a simple, cheap, and easily understood system of pleading in their Court? They have been permitted to make laws under the name of Acts of Sederunt, and it is a fact that those Acts have not been revised for upwards of 100 years. It is in evidence before the Committee, that no professional man, any more than the judges themselves, can tell what part of them had fallen into disuse, or what might now be cited, what was Applicable, and what inapplicable; and, in short, the judges have allowed their court to get into such a state of confusion, as to have caused the very great dissatisfaction admitted by this report to exist throughout the whole country. I now wish to call the attention of the House to the fact, that upon next Saturday, the 18th inst,, the thirteen judges may disperse themselves all over Europe, if they should think fit, and will not be seen in the Court-halls for the ensuing four months, at any rate. I know what my hon. and learned Friend will say on this point. He is going to tell us of a judge sitting weekly upon the bill chamber business; but I will ask him if ever the court-house doors are unlocked during the long vacation? Does not this said judge merely sit in chambers? That's my question. I say the courts are all completely shut. Now, there is another fact which I wish to mention, and I have it from very high authority. It has been often stated, and I believe with perfect justice, that the Scotch bar cannot main-

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tain the present number of Judges. You will find it stated so far back as 1785, by Sir Islay Campbell, and corroborated in the Edinburgh Review, before alluded to—you will find it acquiesced in by Lord Jeffrey in that periodical, and by one whose acquaintance with jurisprudence was far greater than that of any of these; I allude to Sir Samuel Romilly, in whose memoirs it is recorded that unless political partizans were appointed, the bar of Scotland could not supply men of sufficient talent to keep up the present number of Judges. Those are authorities which I conceive to be of no small weight, and, therefore, I do say, it is for the consideration of the leader of this House, who is the adviser of the Crown, whether he cannot recommend the very small improvement, which is all 1 ask at present, of directing that the sittings of the Judges should be extended so far as provided for by law if the Crown shall so command. I expect I shall be told it is better to leave matters alone, and allow the Judges to make the necessary improvements. But I would ask, when have they made any improvements? That's my question. You have let them alone since 1825, when you passed the Judicature Act, and I wish to state distinctly before this House my belief that some of these learned men have often stated in private that they would not interfere by Acts of Sederunt, nor would they apply to the Legislature to explain and amend the said Judicature Act, but let the people suffer and take the consequences of Parliament interfering with their privilege of law-making, which Parliament had done in passing the Judicature Act. I do state most solemnly, that I believe they have never applied to any Lord Advocate, or stated to the Ministers of the Crown, that this Act was too stringent and unmanageable, and that they could not work under it beneficially to the public; and also that they have made no complaint, either directly or indirectly, to this House or the other House of Parliament, or the Queen's Government. No, they have sat, as I said before, in a sullen, sulky mood, and seen thousands of my unfortunate countrymen ruined entirely in trying questions of mere form. Will the learned Lord Advocate deny that? He may deny the allegation I have made, as to why they have done so; but he cannot deny the fact that thousands and thousands have been ruined by trying mere questions of
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form. These, Sir, are what I conceive to be the neglect, not faults of the Judges, and the reasons why I think they ought no longer to be continued in their high prerogative, but to be subjected to Parliamentary interference. If they were confined to one Court, in place of running about from Court to Court, as at present, the business of the country would be done a great deal better, if the Courts of Exchequer, the Teind Court, and Justiciary were merged into that of the Court of Session, and the duties of those several Courts done in rotation as business occurs, there would be no excuse for two co-ordinate Courts of Review—there would be no longer an excuse for thirteen Judges, and there would bean immense improvement in the administration of justice, and great saving of expense and delay to suitors and the country. I say, Sir, Parliamentis bound to interfere. That such interference is necessary has been amply shown by the evidence taken before the committee, but which is not to be found noticed specifically in the Report by the Chairman, although glanced at in the last page, as much as to say, these are things which have been spoken to by the witnesses, but they were of such minor importance to the main object of counsel being allowed to speak, or rather to palaver for hours upon hours if they thought fit, whether the Judges sufficiently understood the case or not, as not worthy of grave consideration. There is another circumstance I wish to mention. I have been asked by an influential Member close by me, what I had to say to the allegation respecting the reading of long law papers? I say there should now be no long law papers. If there are still long law papers, they ought to be prohibited by the Court and not read by the Judges. Such papers are not only complained of by the suitors but by the profession, they are actually prohibited by the Act of 1825, and are repudiated strongly and most properly in this very Report by the learned Lord Advocate. There may be an excuse for the Judges retiring into the country whenever they can. No man can blame them for so doing, however much the system is blame-worthy. We all know that it is a much more pleasant thing to go into the country and amuse ourselves than to stay here and work hard, and I suppose they think the same. But when you allow men to retire for a considerable period to their country residences, they do not feel any

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desire to return to their studies, and I believe at the end of the Session all of us dislike these blue books (alluding to the Report which he held in his hand), a great deal less than we do at the commencement of the following-one. No man desires more than 1 do that our Judges should be in comfortable and respectable situations—all I desire is, that they should give us more of their time in Court, whether that time should be occupied in listening to the arguments of counsel, or in giving reasons for their decisions, which latter I conceive to be far the most important. The whole drift of the learned Lord's Report is, that counsel may be allowed to talk as much as they please. The Court have long had the power to extend the Session—they have had it for many years. There are enormous arrears, and a general dissatisfaction has been expressed throughout Scotland as to the state of the business; but have the Judges listened to these by diminishing their own comforts and extending the Session? No; and the learned Lord says Government is not prepared to advise the extension of the Sessions.—Now, Sir, to show in what a state our Courts are, I have a return of the appeals to the House of Lords, from the Courts of the three kingdoms from 1823 to 1836. It is a return made by the House of Lords to the committee whose Report I am now commenting upon, and it begins in March, 1823, and ends in June, 1836. The whole number of appeals during that period from the Courts of the three kingdoms was 813. What will the House suppose was Scotland's share? Why, Sir, out of the 813, there were 598 appeals, or very nearly three-fourths of the whole from poor Scotland! Would any man credit, that our Judges are in such a state of disrepute with my countrymen, that they invariably appeal? If they can find money enough, every man of them goes to the House of Lords. There are thousands who openly declare, we do not care whether you decide against us or not, we have money in our pockets, and we will go and obtain justice from the Lord Chancellor of England. But what becomes of the poor? Our judges care nothing for them. I know of no case of any importance that has not been brought to the House of Lords. 598 appeals from Scotland out of 813 is ample proof of what sort of justice is administered, and what sort of conduct the judges show to-
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wards the people of Scotland. Now, Sir, the motion upon the paper is of a double nature. It relates not only to the duties of the Judges of the court of session, but, as I have said before, it also relates to the office of my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Advocate. This is an office entirely unprecedented in the known world, either for its extent, its unconstitutional character, or the danger that might be anticipated if it were placed in hands that chose to wield its powers arbitrarily and tyrannically. Its powers have been wielded, so far as my recollection serves me, and I mean to confine myself to the passing of the Reform Bill, with moderation and mildness. The Lord Advocate is a public prosecutor, and a great political officer of State, possessing powers of unknown extent and magnitude. Sir, I hold it impossible for any individual to be a public prosecutor, an office which is extremely useful, and which I believe to be a great want in the jurisprudence of England, I believe it to be impossible for a public prosecutor to be connected with political affairs, as the Lord Advocate is, and at the same time to do justice to his high office. It is all very well in times of tranquillity, where no danger is to be apprehended; but there are plenty of instances in which gross tyranny and dereliction of duty has occurred, as can be testified by many hon. Members of this House. The patronage of the Lord Advocate is said to be little or nothing—perhaps it is not very visible, but it is enormous for all this—and it is well known to the people of Scotland that no man can succeed to any important situation unless by under-hand or over-hand means he is enabled to obtain the good opinion and patronage of the Lord Advocate. To show the nature and extent of his powers, I may mention that he has under him the Solicitor-general, the Crown Agent, Depute-advocates, Sheriffs, Procurators Fiscal, Justice of the Peace Clerks, Borough Court Clerks—in fact, there is no office which ever did exist in Scotland that he does not represent. And if I should call him by chance in this debate the Lord Chancellor, Privy Council, Grand Jury, Coroner, Lord Lieutenant, or Commander of the Forces by sea and land, I should make no mistake, I should be quite right. If I should go further, and add to these that he now appears to be the keeper of the conscience of the General Assembly, Monitor of the Judges

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of the Supreme Court, and Parliamentary Representative General for all Scotland, the House will see how far his influence and power extends. In fact, no Scotch representative can carry on successfully any public measure affecting Scotland without his nod and concurrence. In addition to these it may be said truly that he is commander-in-chief of all our Parliamentary business. No independent Member can move a peg, or get a Bill forward a single stage, without his approval, although I do not mean to say that he has been so very successful in getting his own business forward. If the Lord Advocate was an independent official personage, then he would act as the Secretary of State for Ireland does, and insist upon turn and turn about with the Scotch business in this House, He would not submit to be put aside or passed over by any man; but he is unable to do so, being so mixed up with political matters. I speak of the system, not of the man, and I must say, that I have never seen any Lord Advocate one bit better with regard to Parliamentary independence than another. My hon. and learned Friend who at present holds the office, is about as efficient as any of them; but he has much more to do than his Parliamentary duties, and if I were to move for a return of the time he has spent in the House of Commons, and the time he spends in the House of Lords, I am quite sure the return would show that he has spent thrice as much time in the latter as in the former. If I was to move for a return of the business which my right hon. Friend has conducted in the House of Lords, as the Court of Appeal from Scotland, and given his mind thereto, as compared will the time he has devoted to the business of the House of Commons, you would find, that it was ten to one—or, indeed, I dont know what the odds would be—it would be, to use a common phrase, "All England to a Magpie." The House is probably not aware, that, in his capacity of Lord Advocate, he may bring the most serious charges against the character of any man, in every station, and never bring the matter to public trial, and that without assigning any reason whatever. We have, in Scotland, a most useful officer, called a Procurator Fiscal, whose business it is to examine into crime, and prepare cases for the Crown Counsel, the Depute Advocates, and the Lord Advocate. Now,
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Sir, no man can demand any information as to the cases investigated by the above officer. The Lord Advocate may act in such cases, or not act at all, just as he pleases; he may try or dismiss a party, and is not subject to any action for damages for his conduct. The abuses of such a system may be carried to an enormous extent. For example: In the time when Lord Jeffrey was Lord Advocate I had occasion to apply for the particulars of a precognition taken with regard to the alleged murder of two seamen belonging to the port which I have the honour to represent. Sir, I never could get a sight of this precognition, nor was the party ever brought to trial, although the widows of the two men insisted for a public trial; the reply given me was, no, it is contrary to the ordinary course; and they would not and did not produce it. I applied again to Lord Murray, and after various tedious and protracted applications I was refused, and according to the system, properly refused; but this will be sufficient to show the House the enormous, irresponsible, and dangerous power, of the Lord Advocate of Scotland. Now, Sir, a great deal has been said with regard to the criminal duty of the Scotch Judges. The fact of the matter is, that it is now-a-days comparatively a mere farce, being almost entirely prepared or provided for by Sheriffs and their Procurators Fiscal; and if any one doubts this, let him go into the High Court of Criminal Justice in Edinburgh, or any where else in Scotland, which has been so much lauded; and he will find there silting three judges, a Lord Advocate, a Solicitor-general, and one of his Deputes, perhaps, trying two or three little children, from eight to twelve years old. There they would be found in their Ermine, with their Lord Advocate, or those under him, with all the paraphernalia of a great court of justice, trying such insignificant cases, just as if they had committed the most heinous crime of high treason. The same farce pervades the circuits of the few towns the Criminal Judges visit, for there, as in Edinburgh, they find the cases so thoroughly sifted and prepared by the excellent and efficient local authorities, and under the odious but easy system of applying the former sentences of inferior courts, to eke out the crime which poor ignorant creatures stand accused of, which system is in Scotland called "habit and repute," that the judges

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now have rarely cases to try of any great difficulty. In fact, the parade of judges entering circuit towns in gown and wig, and preceded by trumpeters, &c, is now mocked at by the sensible portion of the people. And yet this part of the duty of our judges and the Lord Advocate's department has been lauded to the skies. If the system of our criminal jurisprudence as at present administered, be calmly looked at by unprejudiced parties, it will be manifest that with stipendiary judges in each county, authorised to try, and daily trying criminals with the aid of a jury, the congregating offenders for months together in our gaols until the six-monthly circuits shall arrive, is no less unjust than impolitic. Few cases occur of capital punishments. Transportation is on the wane, Chairmen of Quarter Sessions in England may award that horrid punishment; stipendiary county judges in Scotland are far higher legal authorities than chairmen of quarter sessions, and well deserve to be intrusted with at least their powers—I repeat, Sir, Scotch Circuits are, now-a-days, more injurious than useful; for another monstrous thing of which I have to complain, is, that civil cases are not allowed to be tried with the aid of a jury on circuit. This would be too great a boon; it would save expense; it would not occupy sufficient time to keep up the delusion of the hard labour imposed on our judges, therefore one set follows another, and so keeps up appearances. I have a return ready to move for, which, when made, will show that the same judges are sent to try civil cases with the aid of a jury, in the very towns the circuits had immediately previously been held in. We are not accused, as a nation, of being ignorant or unjust, and yet we are prevented from trying civil cases on circuit, and are forced to try them in Edinburgh, so as to give the judges the least possible trouble, and the profession there the greatest gain. Then, again, the paraphernalia and consequent expense of isolated jury trial is such as to deter the people of Scotland from entering the courts of session, and the machinery of that court is such an internal contrivance that no man in his senses will attempt to go there. I repeat, Sir, the machinery of that court may fairly be called an infernal machine. In the first place, such are its forms and proceedings, that it very frequently takes two years to get a case the length of a jury.
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But then it has been alleged that we are a capricious people, and that many will not go into courts out of mere caprice. Now I have been curious enough to make some inquiries on that subject, and in every instance, in answer to those inquiries, I was told that caprice had nothing to do in preventing a party from seeking his rights in the courts, but that it was so difficult and tedious to obtain justice in them that parties were afraid of attempting to do so. It is the expense, delay, and vexation which the people have suffered which has created the dissatisfaction so often repeated in the report now in my hand, which, if not the production of the Lord Advocate, has had his unqualified approbation, as it has had of the whole of the Members of the Committee, one only excepted. The people are ignorant in general of the complaint of the judges' impatience in hearing cases. This is a professional allegation, and never was heard of by me amongst the innumerable complaints against the courts which have rung in my ears from every quarter. The hearing of counsel at length, no doubt is highly proper, but doing so will neither augment the sessions nor diminish the vacations, nor remove the general dissatisfaction which at last is universally admitted to exist. Sir, I have endeavoured, considering the importance of this subject, to bring it as shortly as possible before the House, having, in the course of yesterday, received a salutary hint from the Lord Advocate of its being dangerous to interfere with the learned judges in Scotland—and not having been much encouraged by the noble Lord, the leader of this House, to expect that he would advise the Crown to command these judges, in virtue of the Act of Parliament, to extend their Sessions two months longer in the year. Perhaps this may be according to the general course adopted by Ministers, of intending to do what is required, even when they do not hold out any hopes at the time, to adopt it at a future day; and presuming that perhaps that may be the case, and being perfectly certain with the Government against me I cannot succeed, I will not take upon myself the responsibility of an adverse decision at this period of the Session, by calling upon the House to express its opinion, but will leave to the noble Lord the Secretary of State, and those whom he consults, the whole responsibility of this important question,

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and let them take the consequences, Therefore, I beg to withdraw the notice I have given, that is, not to make the motion of which I had given notice.
The Lord Advocatesaid, that as the hon. Member intended not to mike the motion of which he had given notice, he would not detain the House with many observations, and he was the more induced to take that course, because it would require considerable time to enter into the details, so as to make hon. Members understand the question sufficiently well to form an opinion on it. He confessed, too, that he thought it would be very difficult for the House to have all the requisite information before them, when he found such gross misapprehension and misrepresentation of this subject as the hon. Member, no doubt inadvertently, had indulged in. That hon. Member had attended to the subject for many years, and had attended the committee from beginning to end, and yet, almost without an exception, had he come to an erroneous conclusion on every question before them. He must observe, that with regard to the number of Scotch judges, the committee had determined, after a lengthened inquiry, that the number of them could not be reduced without prejudice to the administration of justice in Scotland. He believed, however, that the suggestions of that committee were to be carried into effect, and that in a short time a great change in the mode of administering justice in Scotland would be made. He thought the hon. Member had made out no case for the interference of the House, and that the hon. Member had taken the best course in not pressing his motion. With respect to the extraordinary powers which, according to the statement of the hon. Member, were attached to the office which he had the honour to fill, he must say he did not know where those powers were, and he was sure, that if they ever did belong to his office, they were now completely in abeyance.
Mr. Goulburnthought it incumbent upon him not to let this occasion pass without protesting against the irregularity of making statements and entering into details, and not concluding with any motion. Such a course would lead to the greatest inconvenience, and was a direct and positive violation of the orders of the House.
Subject at an end.

POLITICAL OFFENCES—MESSRS. LOVETT AND COLLINS.
On the question that the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply, be read,
Mr. T. Duncomberose, in pursuance to notice, to move the following resolution—
"Whereas, in the month of July last, two respectable working men, named William Lovett and John Collins, were convicted of publishing a seditious libel, and for the same offence was sentenced to one year's imprisonment in Warwick gaol; and whereas, a large number of persons have since been convicted of offences of a similar character, and the greatest portion of those persons, contrary to custom, are, as well as the above-mentioned William Lovett and John Collins, placed on the criminal side of the gaols to which they have been respectively sent, and are there treated after the manner of persons convicted of the most heinous and detestable crimes; it is the opinion of this House, that such mode of carrying out sentences of imprisonment for political offences, being as uncalled for as unprecedented, ought to be discontinued; and that no greater restraint should be imposed or degradation inflicted upon this class of offenders, than their safe custody requires, and long usage sanctions.''
The grievances that had been complained of by many petitioners relating to the treatment of persons convicted of political offences were cruel, inhuman and unprecedented. He had many well authenticated cases to establish this proposition, and when he had laid the facts before the House he hoped they would agree to the resolution he intended to propose. Before adverting, however, to the statements connected with the parties now suffering punishment for political offences, he would briefly call the attention of the House to cases of a similar character, that had occurred in former times. He would not, however, go further back than 1792, during which year a very great number of political prosecutions were instituted. The hon. Member then stated the cases of Ridgway and Symonds, in 1792, that of Cross, an attorney, in 1793; of the rev William Winterbottom, who during the time he was in prison, wrote his History of America, and was allowed to get married; the case of Mr. Redhead Yorke; of Mr. Gilbert Wakefield; of Mr. M'Cleod; and William Cobbett, who carried on his Register while in Newgate; and of Messrs. John and Leigh Hunt. All these parties were convicted of political offences, either by publishing libels, or uttering treasonable and seditious speeches, but they were

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none of them subjected to any further restraint, while undergoing the different periods of imprisonment to which they were sentenced, than was absolutely necessary to the security of their persons. In 1819, Major Cartwright and others were convicted of seditious practices in assembling to elect persons as members of a National Convention; but they were all imprisoned on the debtor side of Warwick gaol. Subsequently Henry Hunt was convicted of a conspiracy and an attempt to subvert the Government, and was imprisoned in Ilchester gaol, where he experienced rather harsher treatment than previous political offenders had been subjected to, and for which he afterwards obtained redress against the gaoler. The first time that this rule of distinguishing political offences from ordinary misdemeanors in the mode of treatment of the parties convicted was broken through was in the case of Lovett and Collins. Now in every word of the libel for the publication of which Lovett and Collins were found guilty, he entirely concurred. The words were—
1st. That this convention (Mr. Lovett was secretary to the National Convention) is of opinion that a wanton, flagrant, and unjust outrage has been made upon the people of Birmingham by a blood-thirsty and unconstitutional force from London, acting under the authority of men, who when out of office, sanctioned and took part in the meetings of the people; and now, when they share in the public plunder, seek to keep the people in social slavery and political degradation. 2. That the people of Birmingham are the best judges of their own right to meet in the Bull-ring or elsewhere; have their own feelings to consult; and are the best judges of their own power and resources to obtain justice, 3. That the summary and despotic arrest of Dr. Taylor, our respected colleague, affords another convincing proof of the absence of all justice in England, and clearly shows that there is no security for life, liberty, or property till the people have some control over the laws they were called upon to obey."
Since the publication of these remarks on the metropolitan police, an inquiry with regard to the conduct of the police upon that occasion had been instituted by a committee of the town council of Birmingham, Mr. Joseph Sturge being the chairman. The result of the inquiry was expressed in the very words used by Mr. Lovett himself. They declared that it was proved that a brutal and bloody
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attack had been made upon the people of Birmingham, and it was their opinion that if the police had not attacked the people, no disorder ever would have occurred,; and they considered that the riot was incited by the London police. The committee of the corporation of Birmingham stated that it was the practice of the police to assail men with blows who might have been easily apprehended. Why not, after this, prosecute Mr. Joseph Sturge? This was language quite as strong as that I used by Mr. Lovett. The committee went on to say that it was matter of deep regret that the magistrates should have deemed the services of these men (the London police) matter for complimentary notice, I and that such a proceeding on the part of the magistrates was altogether uncalled for and unwarranted. At all events, then, there were two opinions upon this subject, I and he would ask, were Mr. Loveit and Mr. Collins to suffer degradation in Warwick gaol for having expressed an opinion with regard to the conduct of the police in which a great part of the people throughout the country concurred. Mr. Joseph Sturge and the town-council of Birmingham ought to have been sent to Warwick gaol just as well as Mr. Lovett and Mr. Collins. What did he find boldly asserted in the papers of the day? The following strong remarks appeared in one of the daily papers on June 24th last:—
"We call public attention to a police case, which appears under the head of Worship-street this day. In the course of the last six months we have been compelled to make animadversions on the illegal, tyrannical, and intolerable conduct of the new police force, and every fresh occurrence only confirms us in the belief to which that conduct has given rise, that the metropolitan police is the greatest curse that ever afflicted a free people."
This was pretty strong language; it appeared in the Sun newspaper of the 24th of June, and had the government dared to prosecute the Sun for that publication? No. If any prosecution were instituted the Sun newspaper would be supported by two-thirds of the people of this country. But to go back to the case of Lovett and Collins: representations were made by them to the magistrates of the county of Warwick of the privations and hardships those persons were enduring in Warwick gaol, but they were told that the only source whence any relief could be obtained was the Secretary of State for the

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Home Department. From time to time applications were made to the Secretary of State, who referred the complainants to the visiting magistrates, and the magistrates sent them back again to the Secretary of State; so, between one and the other, no progress was made in ameliorating the condition of these men until nearly one-half the period of their imprisonment had expired. Much improvement in that tretament ultimately took place, but they were still kept on the felons' side of the gaol, and were subjected to various other harsh and degrading regulations, that could never be justifiably applied to political offenders, who, in the opinion and judgment of society, had committed no moral offence. On the 25th of this month the term of imprisonment to which Mr. Lovett and Mr. Collins were sentenced would expire; and he believed that it was the desire of Certain individuals that these injured men should assume a better and fatter appearance when they came out of gaol than they had borne during their confinement there. The consequence was, that every day for the last ten days they had had port-wine negus, in order, no doubt, when they came before the public, that they should appear in good condition. In a letter, dated 22d June last, which Mr. Lovett had addressed to a friend, describing the nature of the treatment he had experienced since his incarceration in Warwick gaol, and the effect it had produced on his mind and health, Mr. Lovett said,—
"You can form but a very imperfect idea of the feeling and tone of mind which the restraint and monotony of the discipline of a prison entail on those persons who have been used to activity and the exercise of the body, to cheerful conversation, and to all the varieties of political and literary excitement. I possess very little descriptive powers, but I will endeavour briefly to describe the melancholy routine in which I have passed the greater number of days I have been here, varied only by exchanging the loneliness of my cell for scenes of vice and crime, where I have been compelled to mix with persons of the worst description. In the midst of such circumstances you may easily suppose that even books begin at last to lose their attractions. At half-past five in the morning the prison bell rings; at six in the morning you are expected to have your bed rolled up and your room cleaned. Formerly we were obliged to go instantly down to the yard to answer our names when the roll was called, but that has lately been dispensed with. We have to wait some time before we can get a
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fire, for we are not allowed to have flint or steel. We then retire and sit in our dark cell to read or wile away the time."
That was written on the 22d of June. Since then it appeared that Mr. Lovett had seen a statement with respect to his sleeping with Collins; on the 24th of June he wrote a letter stating the representation was not quite correct. It was true that Collins and himself did sleep together in the first instance; but Lovett. being rather a restless and sleepless man, Collins preferred sleeping with the other inmate of their cell. And here Mr. Lovett made a statement, which demanded the serious attention of the House; for, if correct, it was too atrocious to be endured. Mr. Lovett stated, that Collins had had four different persons to sleep with him since he had been in prison; the first was convicted of a rape, two others were imprisoned for assaults, and his present bed-fellow was convicted of passing bad money. Fortunately, said Mr. Lovett, he and Collins had escaped catching the itch; but their fellow political offender, Edward Brown, was not so fortunate, and he was obliged to undergo the itch bath. [The hon. Gentleman read a letter written by Collins to his wife, describing the injurious effect his confinement had produced upon his health, and more especially the very serious encroachments it had made on the less robust constitution of his fellow prisoner, Lovett.'] This, then, was the hard treatment which these two men had experienced for a political offence which had never been considered in the estimation of society to cast a stigma on the moral characters of those who were convicted of it. What would have been said by the present Government if any among those whose cases he had referred to in the commencement of his speech had been subjected to similar treatment by the Tories of former days? But he wished it was only Mr. Lovett and Mr. Collins that had been so treated. If Gentlemen would take the trouble to read the petitions that had been presented to the House, he might refer them to Fisherton Gaol, Ilchester Gaol, York Castle, Oakham Gaol, and Wakefield House of Correction. Mr. Roberts, an attorney of Bath, had been recently discharged from Fisherton Gaol, and had returned to Bath, having been released by the Secretary of State. A person who was a member of the town council of Bath, had

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written to him on the subject, and very naturally asked why Carrier and Potts were not equally released. The ground for liberating Roberts must equally apply to the cases of Carrier and Potts, for all three were tried at the same assizes for the same offence, and the judge said, when sentencing them, that he saw no difference in their degrees of guilt. He, however, made a distinction in the punishment, for Potts being a poor man was sentenced not only to imprisonment but to hard labour. Mr. Carrier, he believed, could not boast of the same high connexions in life as Mr. Roberts, who he understood was a near connexion of Chief Justice Tindal. But, notwithstanding neither Carrier nor Potts could claim any high connexions, it equally behoved the House of Commons to take care that justice should be done to their case. In llchester gaol there were two persons confined for political offences, named Bartlett and Baldwin; and if they passed to Oakham gaol they would find three individuals, Vincent, Shelhard, and Edwards. They were convicted at Monmouth, and sent to Monmouth gaol. They remained there some time, and were then sent to the Penitentiary. Notice was taken of the removal, in consequence of a discussion upon the subject in the House of Commons, in the course of which it was contended, that their removal was illegal, and that the Government had no right to send them to the Penitentiary. Since then they had been removed to Oakham, and their petition deserved the attention of the House. After having been imprisoned for nearly nine months, on one charge, on account of an offence committed in June, Mr. Vincent was again indicted for an offence committed in the January previous. This appeared to him nothing more nor less than a vindictive proceeding. Had it occurred during Tory times the country would have rung with the indignation of the public. The next case to which he would call their attention was that of the prisoners at Wakefield. They had heard the petitions of Richard White and Joseph Crabtree. White, an old man, aged sixty-two, petitioned on the part of his son, one of the convicted party, who had been originally confined in York Castle, but was removed to Wakefield without his (the father's) knowledge. From another person, however, who had been confined in Wakefield gaol, the pe-
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titioner had heard that his son was reduced very much in health—that he was compelled to work on the treadmill with felons—that he had twice fallen off the mill in a state of exhaustion—and that when the petitioner went to the gaol, the gaoler would not allow him to see his son. Now this man was sentenced to imprisonment only, not to hard labour. The case of Joseph Crabtree was perhaps the worst of all. In his petition he stated, that he was locked up in his cell from six at night until six in the morning, the cell being a small room, eight feet by six—that while so locked up he was not allowed to make the slightest noise, not even to walk about his cell—that on being liberated in the morning he was placed among convicted misdemeanants, obliged to hold his face in a particular position, so that the gaoler might see it, and prevented from holding the slightest communication, either by look or by word, with the other prisoners. In this state he was kept until the evening, not being allowed to stand up, or even to look another prisoner in the face, under penalty of subjecting himself to solitary confinement in a dark room for three days, on a diet of bread and water only. The prisoner had been convicted of having been present at a meeting of a seditious character at Barnsley, but in his petition he solemnly declared in the presence of God that he was not there present—a fact which could be proved by another prisoner, named Owen. He could have proved this on his trial, but was told that his case would be looked upon as one of entire unimportance, and that he had better take no steps of the kind. The only other case with which he would trouble the House was that of Mr. Feargus O'Connor, which was not one-fifth as bad as the others which he had referred to. The treatment which that gentleman received was at first outrageous and disgraceful to the country, but it had recently been much improved. Still it was what, as a political offender only, he ought not to be subjected to. The avowed object of it was to prevent him from continuing to publish his paper. But Mr. Cobbett and Mr. Hunt were allowed to continue to write their papers under similar circumstances, and why should not Mr. O'Connor? He was not allowed to see his friends, except in the presence of his gaoler, and then only across a passage six feet wide, and through an

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iron grating, in order that he might not transmit any writings to the public. He knew that he should be told that all these things were the acts of the visiting magistrates; that the Government was not to blame; and that the amendment recently made in the Prisons Act would set all to rights. But the alteration in question was a perfect delusion. That alteration in the Prisons Act did not make the law of the land different from what it had been before. The Secretary of State, as had been evidenced in the case of Mr. O'Connor, had before the power to alter the regulations of the visiting magistrates; for he had been transferred from the felons' to the debtors' side, in consequence of the interference of the Secretary of State. The new act still left it to the visiting justices to make the regulations of the prison, and whether the prisoner was confined on the debtors' or the felons' side, still he would be subject to those regulations. What guarantee had Parliament as to the nature of those regulations? If they were to be any thing like what they now were, the only effect of the alteration would be, to leave it in the power of the Secretary of State, by whom the regulations of the magistrates were liable to be revised, to treat political offenders, who might possibly be personally offensive to him, in a manner never hitherto contemplated by the law. He called, then, on the House to affirm, by resolution, the principle on which those prison regulations should be based; that there should be only so much restriction as was necessary to secure the safe custody of the person of the prisoner. But what were these persons convicted for? For attending seditious and illegal meetings. What was an illegal meeting? Very different sentiments had been entertained by those who now formed part of the Government, or who supported it at other periods, from those upon which these individuals had been convicted. In December, 1819, after the Sedition Bill had passed the House of Lords, a protest was entered upon the journals, which contained these sentiments:—
"First. Because the laws of England, when duly enforced, have always been found sufficient to prevent any confusion arising from popular meetings, or to punish any disturbers of the public peace; and a too ready acquiescence in the suggestions of Ministers for imposing new restraints upon the rights and usages of the people—even if the provisions of the bill were in themselves neither harsh nor unreason.
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able—appears to us more calculated to add weight to calumny, and to exasperate discontent into hostility, than to defeat the designs of turbulent men, or to reclaim the alienated affections of a mistaken multitude.
"Secondly. Because the powers entrusted by this bill to magistrates are liable to great abuse, and those who disobey them exposed to dreadful and disproportionate punishment. On the surmise that a stranger is present in a crowd, or on the application of a vague definition to the words of a notice, or to the language of an orator, a justice of peace may proclaim a meeting to be unlawful, and an Englishman may become a felon for continuing, even through inadvertence, half-an-hour in a spot where no breach of the peace has been committed.
"Thirdly. Because the numerous assemblies alleged in the preamble to be the occasion and justification of the bill, have been confined to particular districts; but the restrictions and penalties thereof are generally extended to the whole kingdom, and even to Ireland, where no such practices have ever prevailed.
"Fourthly. Because this bill, combined with the restrictions of the press which have already passed, or have been announced in this House, is obviously intended to fetter all free discussion, and to repress, if not stifle, the expression of public opinion. Large meetings in periods of political ferment furnish the means of ascertaining the designs and measuring the strength of the malcontents; they tend to disunite and discredit the rash and mischievous agitators of a mistaken multitude, and they not unfrequently serve as a vent, comparatively innoxious, of that ill-humour and discontent, which, if suppressed, might seek refuge in secret cabals and conspiracies, dangerous to the safety of individuals in authority, and subversive of the peace and happiness of society."
That protest was signed "Vassal Holland, Augustus Frederick, Thsnet, Donoughmore, Grosvenor, Erskine." Similar sentiments were expressed during the last recess by the noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies. He wished that, with regard to these unfortunate men, the noble Lord had acted upon the doctrines so laid down by him at Liverpool. He complained also of the different mode of punishment which was observed with regard to different offenders. While Messrs. Lovett and Collins, and the other persons to whom he had referred, were treated in the manner that had been described, the Rev. Mr. Stephens, who had been convicted of a similar offence, was actually living in the gaoler's house, and enjoying the society of his friends. Mr. Bronterre O'Brien and Mr. M'Douall were also treated, in Chester gaol, with much less severity than was

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observed towards Messrs. Lovett and Collins, though not so well as the Rev. Mr. Stephens. As an instance of the petty severities that were inflicted on Mr. O'Brien, he would mention that his snuffbox was taken away from him. This might appear to some hon. Members an absurd ground of complaint; but those who were in the habit of taking snuff would tell them that to be forcibly prevented was a source of much annoyance and inconvenience. The sort of treatment which he had described as being inflicted on these prisoners was not sustained by public opinion. The effect which it would have, if continued, on the minds of the lower orders was deserving of the attention of the House. He implored those connected with the rural districts to lend their aid on this occasion, for they might depend upon it that there was scarcely a village or a hamlet in which the reports of the sufferings of these prisoners did not penetrate, and where there did not exist a strong feeling that these prisoners were unjustly detained, and treated with undue harshness. The address which he was about to move did not in any way trench on the prerogative of the Crown. He did not ask for a curtailment of the imprisonment of the parties, but only that an end might be put to a system of treatment which, thank God! had never been heard of in this country since the days of the Star Chamber, and which was very little. exceeded by the worst cruelties of the Spanish inquisition. The hon. Member concluded by moving the address.
Mr. Wakleyseconded the motion. He would not enter into many topics which had been adverted to by his hon. Friend, conceiving as he did that their business was to consider the treatment which these unfortunate prisoners had received while in prison. With their sentences they had nothing to do. They had been duly tried according to law, by juries to whom they did not object. The question was, how had they been treated in gaol? The system of punishment which by our forefathers had been intended to operate as a check upon crime, had been, in the case of these prisoners, converted into a torture which was calculated to turn them into savages. It was calculated to make them the worst beings that ever existed in the human form—to eradicate every feeling of virtue, and substitute one universal feeling
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of revenge. By inflicting torture of this kind the whole institutions of the country were endangered. He could not believe that the House would sanction such a system as his hon colleague had described in the case of Crabtree. He could not believe that the Government were desirous to continue such a system. He hoped, for the credit of the Government, that it would be proved that no application had been made to the Government before the presentation of these petitions. He strongly deprecated the system of leaving the prison regulations to the discretion of the visiting magistrates. Those who had the responsibility of those regulations ought to sit in that House and be ready at all times to answer questions on the Subject. The subject, however, having once been brought before the Government, they were henceforth responsible for whatever might occur in these gaols. It would no longer avail them to say that they left those things to the visiting magistrates, they had now ample evidence that the visiting magistrates were not to be intrusted with the power of making them. This being the position of Government as regarded the subject, he could not help expressing a wish that his hon. Friend would not divide, trusting as he did, that the Government would make such a declaration, as would satisfy the House of their determination instantly to ameliorate the condition of those uhfortunate persons who were now confined for political offences. There were nearly three hundred persons confined for political offences at the present time. The hon. Member concluded by seconding the motion.
Sir George Stricklandobserved, that as allusion had been made to the prisoners confined in the House of Correction at Wakefield for political offences, he felt bound to observe, that he should have felt it to be his duty to bring the subject before the House had not allusion been made to it by the hon. Member for Fins-bury, and also if he did not believe that his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Home Department would give such an explanation on the subject as would render it unnecessary to proceed further in the matter. He believed that the treatment of those persons confined at Wakefield, if it were as it had been described in the petitions laid on the table of the House, was so contrary and inconsistent with everything like law in the former treat-

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ment of persons punished for similar offences, that the authorities would merit every censure, if it could not be shown, that it had arisen from casual and accidental circumstances. It was not for the House to consider the sentences that had been passed on these persons; the only question before the House was, whether the treatment which they had met with in prison was humane, and consistent with the usage which former prisoners had experienced who had been punished for similar offences. It appeared also that some of those persons who had been so harshly treated were punished merely for being present at political meetings, where some one had used seditious language. The magistrates alleged that the Home-office made the rules for the prisons, and that they were not responsible; while the Home-office said that all the additional punishment inflicted on these unfortunate men was attributable to the magistrates. He hoped that his hon. Friend, the Under Secretary for the Home Department, would show that this was the case, and that he would give an explanation to the House on the subject. At the same time, he felt bound to say that he thought that the only explanation which could prove satisfactory, was to show that the proceedings were strictly legal. If they received a promise from his hon. Friend the Under Secretary for the Home Department, that these abuses should be remedied for the future, he trusted that his hon. Friend would not go to a division on the motion.
Mr. Fox Maule, before he proceeded to reply to the speech of his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, felt bound to observe, that nothing that had been said that night, would induce him to alter the course which he had intended to pursue. As to the treatment of these political offenders being severe, unnecessary and unusual, and not consonant to the former practice that obtained with respect to that class of persons, he would state a few facts to the House, and would rely on public opinion for the conviction that the Government had not pressed upon any individuals convicted of political offences, or crimes as they had been termed, in a way which the law would not sanction. His hon. Friend stated, that in certain cases, the parties were treated with much attention and consideration, because they were in a higher station in society. In all those cases, whatever punishment was
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inflicted, it was accompanied with the, imposition of heavy pecuniary fines, which if they had been imposed upon those now undergoing punishment for political offences, would be followed by certain ruin. The cases of Lovett and Collins had already been fully discussed in that House. He not only had admitted that the treatment that they had experienced was harsh, but as far as the department to which he belonged possibly could, it had done all in its power to relieve them; and since they had been sentenced, the Government had shown every disposition to ameliorate and to alter the nature of the punishment to which those convicted of political offences were exposed. But, dealing with the cases of Lovett and Collins, his hon. Friend went beyond the limit of his resolution, for he went to the extent of justifying the offences for which these persons bad been condemned, not by any extraordinary measures brought forward by the Government to meet the circumstances of the case, not by any recent law that Ministers had introduced, but by the long-established law of the land. They had been tried by the ordinary tribunals of the country, had been convicted by impartial juries, and had been condemned and sentenced for an offence which his hon. Friend now stood up in his place in Parliament, and justified. He was surprised that such observations should escape from any Member of that House. Was the hon. Gentleman aware of the period when this placard was published, and the circumstances under which it was sent forth, as well as the state of the place in which it was promulgated. He begged the House to recollect that this took place after serious riots at Birmingham, and also that the publication of this placard was followed by riots of such an extensive and dangerous nature as to place, according to the opinion of competent judges, that great town in a situation of imminent peril.
Mr. T. Duncombe: The publication took place on the 5th of July, and the serious riots and the burnings did not take place until the 14th.
Lord John Russell, the publication of the placard took place after the first riot and previous to the second.
Mr. Fox Maulefelt that the case was even stronger than he had stated. The publication of the seditious libel took place after the introduction of the London police to Birmingham, and its tendency

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was to excite the minds of an assembled multitude in that great town to the greatest pitch of indignation against those who were sent down to protect the lives and property of the inhabitants of that place, who had not then the advantage of an organised police. In consequence of the excitement which was thus created, and in consequence of the speeches which were made in other parts of the country, the greatest apprehension was created in the minds of the inhabitants of Birmingham, and there were few persons of respectability living there who did not believe that, had it not been for the excitement occasioned by those speeches and placards, the serious riots of the 16th would not have happened. His hon. Friend had quoted an extract from a speech of Mr. Sturge, as chairman of a portion of the corporation, with the view of showing that it was the opinion of that meeting that the introduction of the London police was the cause of those riots. He appeared to answer for the conduct of the London police at Birmingham. But what was the course pursued by that body? They were sent down in consequence of the disturbances there, that they should protect the lives and properties of the inhabitants of that place. So strictly were the orders given to prevent any thing like an excuse for the outrages that occurred after the riots on the 4th had been put down, that the police were not allowed to leave their quarters or to go out into the town, and they did not do so until their presence became absolutely necessary to put a stop to the riots and devastation that prevailed in the town. This appeared in the evidence taken before the learned Gentleman sent down to investigate the matter, and could be referred to if hon. Gentlemen wished. Whatever, therefore, might be the feelings of certain persons in that place, and however desirous they might be to excite a collision between the London police and the crowd, the magistrates gave such strict orders, that the former body were not called upon to act unless in case of emergency, and in the riots in the night of the 18th of July, when their services became absolutely necessary, they manifested the greatest forbearance, and did not resort to any proceedings which were not absolutely necessary. On that occasion, when the rioters were setting fire to the houses in an important part of the
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town, they were called upon to act, and they did so in such a manner as to put a stop to the serious disturbances that then prevailed in a comparatively short time; and they did so without inflicting any injury on individuals. Although many of the police were injured themselves, they succeeded in dispersing the multitude with such a degree of moderation, that not a single person in the crowd was taken to the dispensary, or was injured. This was a primâ facie case in favour of the conduct of the police. Allusion had been made to the proceedings in the case of Sir Francis Burdett; but it should be recollected, that at that time there was no organised police force, but the military were called upon to act. So much, then, for the observations which the hon. Member had thought it proper to make on the conduct of the police, and he would add, that he believed if any intelligent class in any part of the empire was consulted on the subject, that it would at once admit that that body, by its energy, had saved the town of Birmingham from destruction. Such was the feeling of the inhabitants of that place, for these men carried, at the present day, the honorary memorials conferred upon them by the citizens of Birmingham for what they then did. The hon. Member also stated, on the authority of a statement in a daily newspaper, that the police were employed as spies; but he would defy the hon. Gentleman, or the editor of the newspaper to which he had alluded, to show an instance in which any members of the metropolitan police had been employed as spies; unless as far as was absolutely necessary for following up or tracing out crime. It was an easy thing to throw a certain odium on the police force of the metropolis; but he was sure that the House would not sanction any such unfounded charges; and, above all, he would ask the hon. Member whether it was an easy task to answer for the results that might be produced. He did not believe that any part of the aspersions which his hon. Friend had thought proper to cast upon the police, would have any weight with the public, for they were too well aware of the value and the importance of the services of that body readily to adopt such charges. He recollected that his hon. Friend, the Member for Kilkenny entertained an impression in the first instance against that body, but on investigation, he stated repeatedly to

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the House, and to the country, that all the suspicions which he had entertained were dissipated. As for the cases of Lovett and Collins, their period of punishment was now rapidly drawing to a close, and he could not help saying that he was sure that the insinuation of his hon. Friend, that their treatment had been mitigated, that they might fatten up before they came out of prison, that they might not appear in a lean and starved condition was rather to be imputed to that somewhat jocular mode of debate which he sometimes indulged in, than to the conviction of his mind. Some time ago they were offered their freedom on terms which he thought they might easily have accepted of, on the understanding that they should enter into their personal recognizances to keep the peace, and to be of good behaviour for twelve months. He believed that this was the mildest form in which they could be liberated under the circumstances of the case; they, however, refused to accept the offer. His hon. Friend then alluded to the cases of George Morse Bartlett, and Charles Boswell, who were prisoners at Ilchester, the former on a charge of sedition, and the latter of conspiracy. These persons had presented a petition, which was on the table of the House, and they petitioned, not because they wished to make any grievance known, or that they complained of the too great severity of the sentence, or of the manner in which it was carried into effect. He did not think, however, that either the Crown or the Ministers were to be charged with inattention, when they were not made acquainted with the circumstances of any of these cases, until they were put in possession of them through the petitions presented to the House. The two persons to whom he had just adverted, had complained to the House, not of the sentences which had been imposed on them, but of the different treatment that others met with, who were under sentence of imprisonment. These two men had not been convicted of political libels: the first, George Morse Bartlett, had been sentenced to nine months' imprisonment, not for libel, but for sedition; and the second, Charles Boswell, was sentenced in a similar punishment for conspiracy. These men, in the petition which they had presented, did not complain of the severity of the sentence which had been imposed on them, nor as to any peculiar hardships in the gaol where they were confined; but
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they stated, that Feargus O'Connor, esq., and other incarcerated Chartists, have been granted the privilege of maintaining themselves, and that "therefore they prayed the House to grant them the same privilege." He would proceed to notice the statement and petitions of the three persons who were in the Penitentiary. He had made a point of inquiring into the allegations of those petitions, and had referred to the keeper of the gaol; and he found that the separate petitions of Edwards, Vincent, and Shellard, did not emanate from their own free will; but they had sent them in answer to an application made to them by a Member of Parliament, that they should send three separate petitions against the treatment they had experienced in gaol, or against the keeper of it, if they had any subject of complaint. [Mr. T. Duncombe had written to them.] He should not have mentioned the name of his hon. Friend, had his hon. Friend not mentioned it himself; but in that letter his hon. Friend stated, that he thought that one petition would not be of much use, and there lore requested that three separate petitions should be got up, complaining of the treatment they experienced. His hon. Friend, then, had acknowledged the correctness of the statement of the keeper of the gaol, that he had asked for petitions from Edwards, Vincent, and Shellard, if they had any complaints to make against the gaoler. He admitted, that the removal of these parties from Monmouth gaol, to which place they had been sentenced, to the Penitentiary was an oversight; but it was never intended to make the punishment more severe, only to remove them so that they might be separated from other misdemeanants. The moment, however, that it was found that the imprisonment in the Penitentiary was beyond the pale of the law, and was harsher than was intended, steps were taken to send them to another prison, namely, Oakham. It appeared also, that when they were first sent there, they were not allowed the use of knife and fork, but had to divide their food by means of a wooden spoon. On their making a representation to the Home Office on the subject, immediate instructions were sent down, directing that such a rule should not be enforced, but that they should be allowed knives and forks. With respect to the allegations made as to the health of these petitioners, Edwards says—

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"That your petitioner sustained considerable injury in his health; and is perfectly convinced that, had he not been removed to a more healthful locality, death would soon have put a period to his existence, in spite of the kind treatment he experienced from the Governor, and officers of that establishment."
Now he found, on referring to the authorities of the Penitentiary, that Mr. Wade, the surgeon of that establishment, declared that, "while there, he was in good health;" and the surgeon of Oakham Gaol stated, that he presumed his health to be good, as he had heard him make no complaints whatever on the subject. So much for Edwards. As for Vincent, he found that the great ground of complaint was his being deprived of the use of a knife to cut his food: this ground of complaint, as he had already stated, was at an end. With respect to Shellard, that person stated
"That while in the Penitentiary your petitioner made a minute statement of his case, in writing, to the authorities of that place; and your petitioner has every reason to believe, that her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for the Home Department is in possession of the facts stated by your petitioner."
It was quite true that Shellard drew up such a statement, but the governor of the prison, for reasons of his own, did not forward this document, and in answer to a notification which he (Mr. Fox Maule) had felt it to be his duty to make, the governor of the Penitentiary returned the following answer:—
"In addition to the ordinary examination taken upon the prisoner's reception, there was a minute statement of his case drawn up, not by the prisoner, who was incompetent to the task, but by myself. It originated in the following manner.—Having in one of my visits to the prisoner's cell observed him to be depressed in spirits, I entered fully into conversation with him, when he represented himself as a much-injured man, the victim of private malice and gross perjury. His story was told with much apparent artlessness, and contained several substantial features capable of investigation and indicative of innocence. I mentioned the case to one of the visitors of the prison, who in consequence had an interview with the prisoner, and being also much struck with his narrative, requested me to procure a statement of the leading facts. In compliance with the visitor's request, I sent for the prisoner to my office, and from his representation drew up a statement of such facts as appeared to bear materially upon the question of his innocence. Mr Farrer, to whom I delivered this paper, entertained considerable doubts as
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to its effect, and under these circumstances nothing further was done."
The result, therefore, did not justify an accusation against the Government. It was quite true that when Shellard was brought up to the Penitentiary he was in a state of ill-health, but when he left he was much better, and at Oakham he received every attention which the circumstances of his case required. With regard to the cases of Crabtree and White, he was not aware of some of the circumstances which had been stated, but if the magistrates carried their sentence into effect, surely this was no ground of charge against either the magistrates or the visiting justices, or the Government. The case of Crabtree was under investigation, and if any unnecessary restraint had been put on him, the attention of his noble Friend would be immediately directed to the matter. On the general question, he would merely ask the hon. Gentleman if he really meant to cast the imputation on the Government that they encouraged or promoted any unnecessary degree of punishment, or, as he called it, torture, being inflicted on the individuals now under sentence for political offences? Could any person be justified in drawing such a conclusion? While the disturbances were going on, he believed that had his noble Friend come down to the House for increased powers to suppress them, the House would, by an immense majority, have armed him with any power he might have thought proper to demand, yet the noble Lord had asked for no power beyond the law, relying on the good sense, the loyalty, and justice of the respectable classes, to judge of the nature of the offence, and relying on the law to punish those who should be found guilty. The manner in which Government had conducted itself throughout the whole of the affair, sufficiently proved that it had sought to take no vengeance upon individuals, but only to restrain within the bounds of the law those who resisted it, and those under whose advice such resistance was carried on. It would, indeed, be unjust, that while their ignorant and deluded dupes were punished, the exciters of tumult and sedition should, by their skill in keeping apparently within the pale of the law, be allowed to escape with entire impunity. The slur attempted to be cast upon the Government by the hon. Gentleman, was utterly unmerited, nor

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would it be sanctioned by the majority of that House. He was quite aware, that in carrying the law into effect, Government must entail on itself a certain degree of unpopularity; but this the Government was prepared, in the execution of its duty, to submit to. Acting upon principles of strict justice, and entirely free from the slightest degree of personal malice, if the Government had not the courage to carry out its authority, and the authority of the law, it would be unworthy of the confidence of that House, and of the people in general. Whatever popularity might be temporarily gained by supporting the present motion, he for one was ready to sacrifice it, believing it to be his duty, both as a Member of that House, and as a Member of the Government, to support the law.
Mr. D'Israelisaid, the question was, whether there had not been a change of punishment for political offences. Was it denied that persons convicted of political offences had been treated as felons, and as felons convicted of infamous crimes? The hon. Member for Finsbury had shown the House, that since 1792 there had been no instance of persons convicted of political offences being treated in the same way as such persons had been treated by the present Government. He would go farther back, and he invited the hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Maule) to consult authorities of more ancient date, and he would find, that at no period of our history, not absolutely barbarous, had persons been so treated for political offences. The imprisonment of such persons was only for the security of the state, not for the infliction of punishment. The present Government could not find a precedent for its conduct with respect to the prisoners at present confined for political offences even in those times most remarkable for arbitrary rule. No, not even in the time of the Star-chamber, and of high commissions, for even in those times the rights of prisoners were acknowledged. Did the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) deny that the prisoner had rights? It would appear from the course pursued towards the persons whose cases were then under discussion that he did, and that he refused to acknowledge what even the Star-chamber had admitted. [Laughter.] The noble Lord might laugh, but he would be glad if the noble Lord could show a precedent even in the conduct of the Star-
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chamber, which, as contra-distinguished from the spirit of the times, surpassed in severity his own proceedings. After the speech of the Under Secretary of State, so remarkable for its undescending defiance, the hon. Member for Finsbury would not perform his duty if he did not take the sense of the House upon the question. He did not by any means impugn the verdict of the jury or the sentence of the judge. The character of the offence was not denied, but the question was, whether or not the punishment was excessive, and beyond that imposed in all former similar cases. The punishment inflicted in England for such offences did not in any case exceed three years' imprisonment, but was not an imprisonment of this kind, so severe and so galling', of much more than the nominal duration? Look, for instance, at the case of Roberts, did not the circumstances attendant upon his imprisonment aggravate the punishment so as to render it equivalent to torture? There was no other place in Europe, nor even in Siberia, where such punishment had been inflicted. But then his treatment had been altered. Why? Not because the punishment was deemed too severe, but because the prisoner had broken a blood vessel. What, he would ask, was the reason why the same conduct which in England was called sedition passed unpunished at the other side of the channel under the gentler terra of agitation? Was it because the Ministry had the countenance and support of those who were engaged in it? If the English people found that those at the other side of the channel were permitted to do, for the purpose of acquiring political power, that for which they were so severely punished at this, a feeling would be raised in this country which no speech of an Under Secretary of State could by possibility put down. The people of England would not brook Ministerial connivance at a system which stimulated the feelings of a people, that those who wrought upon them might profit by the passions of their dupes. He hoped that hon. Members on his (the Opposition) side of the House would not resist this motion because of its being brought forward by one, to whose line of policy they were generally opposed. They were the natural leaders of the people. Yes, he repeated, the aristocracy were the natural leaders of the people, for the aristocracy and the labouring population

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formed the nation, and it was only when gross misconception and factious misrepresentation prevailed, that a miserable minority, under the specious designation of popular advocates, was able to pervert the nations order. They commenced by gorging themselves with public prey, and ended by assaulting the best and most valuable rights of person and property—such was the course pursued by the present administration.
Mr. Warburtongave credit to the Government for having relied on the ordinary law of the land for suppressing the late disturbances; but thought their error consisted in carrying out the sentences on those convicted with too much severity, and contrary to all former practice. How, for example, was the treatment of Lovett and Collins, conformable with the views propounded by one of the officers of the Government on this subject? A bill for the regulation of prisons having been sent down from the House of Lords before Easter, he then proposed to introduce some amendments respecting those imprisoned for seditious libels, seditious speaking, or attending seditious meetings. When these amendments were under discussion before Easter, the hon. Undersecretary of State for the Home Department described their treatment in the following language, on a motion for papers which immediately preceded the bringing in of the bill:—
"I have no objection," said he, "to this motion, which has been brought forward for the purpose of making some observations, which 1 admit that my hon. Friend is justified in making, on this occasion. In passing the Prisons Act, I willingly admit that the Legislature was guilty of negligence in not making some regulations for the treatment of those who might be imprisoned for political offences. So far I agree with my hon. Friend, the Member for Bridport, and, when we go into Committee, I shall not have any objection to adopt his amendments."
Now, what were those amendments? They were to the effect, that the severe provisions of that bill should not apply to those found guilty of speaking, writing, or publishing seditious words. Who moved these amendments? Not he, but the hon. Under Secretary of State, who actually took the amendments out of his hands, and proposed them himself. Here, then, he had the opinion of the representative of the Home-office in this House condemning the existing regulations. But
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that was not all. He found, in the correspondence which had been published respecting the treatment of Mr. O'Connor in York Castle, the following language used by Lord Normanby. The passage occurred in a letter dated the 27th of March, 1840, and addressed to the visiting justices of York Castle:—
"Lord Normanby desires me to observe that there ought to be nothing of degradation or personal indignity in the treatment of Mr. O'Connor, nor anything which may operate as an unusual or disproportionate severity, with reference to his state of health or former habits of life."
Let them apply this to Lovett. He had been accustomed to all the moderate comforts of life, and was then in a delicate state of health, yet he was subjected to the same dress and food and treatment as the common felons. But the real question was, whether, looking to the mode of treating this class of prisoners some years ago, previous to the passing of the Prisons Act, and subsequently to the adoption of the -prisons regulations, you were now to introduce a system of treatment that would make every humane man's blood run cold. Looking over the debates in Parliament at various periods, on this subject, who were the parties that interfered with severity of treatment, both at home and abroad? They had Mr. Whitbread and Sir Samuel Romilly continually bringing cases under the notice of the House, in which persons were treated with unjustifiable severity. Who were the parties, then, who paid most attention to the subject? The Whigs. They came forward as the defenders of the people; not to justify their offences, but to curb the undue severity of punishment. Who were to blame in the present case? He would acknowledge that the prison regulations had taken away from the Government, in a great measure, the power of alleviating the treatment of prisoners; but as by those regulations they had the power of transferring prisoners from one gaol to another in the kingdom, and in the prisons of the metropolis a milder system of treatment was pursued, whenever they found the discipline in the provinces unusually severe they might remove them to one of the metropolitan prisons. Though the prison regulations might have been fixed under the Prisons Act, the 4 Geo. 4th, c. 54, gave a power to the magistrates of making exceptions to the general rules,

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and giving some alleviation to the sufferings of the convicts, such as confining them in a separate part of the prison, and subjecting them to different treatment from that pursued towards the great mass of the prisoners. Even the keeper of the gaol could exercise the same discretion, till he should receive the instructions of the visiting justices, who would say whether the reasons offered by him warranted the deviation from the general rule. Thus, although the Prisons Regulations Act had passed, the visiting magistrates had the power of alleviating the treatment of prisoners till their case should be brought before the Quarter Sessions, and he thought it would certainly be more to their credit had they more frequently exercised the discretionary powers thus entrusted to them. The Government, who must have approved of the regulations in every gaol in the country, and were, therefore, responsible for them, when it reached their ears that such extreme severity was exercised, should have reminded the magistrates of the powers confided to them by 4 Geo. 4th, c. 64, and recommended some mitigation. The hon. Under Secretary had made some remarks to the effect that, antecedent to the passing of the Prisons Regulations Act, if the treatment of this class of prisoners was less severe than since, it was then the custom to impose heavy fines. But did the hon. Gentleman mean to say that, when heavy pecuniary fines were not imposed, severities of this kind were inflicted? The hon. Under-Secretary thought that he was treating Lovett and Collins with great leniency, in allowing them to go out of prison on giving security, after enduring ten months out of the twelve months imprisonment, to which they had been sentenced. But after they had suffered during those ten months a greater degree of punishment than had been intended by the judges who sentenced them, it would have been only a reasonable indulgence to let them out without any stipulation. He would say, in conclusion, that as the regulations of the gaol must be first approved of by the Home-office, the Government should give a pledge that they should be such as the feelings of the public would also approve of, and as he saw no intimation of their giving such a pledge, he would recommend his hon. Friends to persevere in dividing the House on this question, in order to mark their sense
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of such treatment, in the strongest manner.
Mr. Wardexpressed a hope that, before the House came to a vote on the question, the noble Lord, the organ of her Majesty's Government in that House, would make some announcement calculated to induce his hon. Friend to withdraw the motion. Although he wished and expected that this announcement would be satisfactory to his hon. Friend, he still must take the liberty of saying that he thought there was room for much improvement in the system of prison discipline. The motion if pressed to a division should have his support.
Mr. Burgesexpressed much surprise that the hon. Member for Bridport had not admitted that the statements contained in the petitions of Mrs. Roberts were wholly unfounded. It was quite apparent that these petitions were got up by other persons than those who professed to sign them. As to the motion, which in terms related to persons confined for political offences, it should be recollected that political offences varied in degree as much as offences against the person, and therefore it would be unjust to apply the same punishment in all cases. The offences of which these men had been guilty were of a very serious character. They had collected together and harangued seditious meetings, advising the people to arm themselves and take away the property of the rich, and telling them that there were at Bolton 50,000 and at Birmingham 150,000 men armed and ready to join them for that purpose. These were called political offences merely because the offence had a political object, but the consequences were serious in the extreme. The prisoner Carrier said,
"There is such a thing as a box of lucifer matches. A box of lucifer matches costs one penny. Talk of physical force! You may have more physical force for a penny than is to be found in a whole regiment of soldiers."
The result was several incendiary fires. He thought that political offences should be punished according to the degree of criminality which belonged to them, and the consequences which were likely to result from the commission of the offence.
Mr. Serjeant Talfourdcomplained that, when imprisonment was all that the law-awarded for crime, other means should be silently adopted, by which the imprisonment was turned into something very dif-

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ferent from the punishment contemplated by the law. It might be that the punishment to which the hon. Member for Bath had alluded was not a sufficient punishment for the crime committed, but if that were so, let the law be made more stringent. While, however, the law remained in its present state, it was the duty of the House of Commons to step in, and take care that moral torture was not silently inflicted. In the case of Mr. Vincent, where the sentence expressly declared that there should be nothing more than imprisonment, he had been transferred by the Government to a place where he was subjected to the correctional discipline observed in transportation cases, and had suffered indignities, the effects of which must last much longer than the imprisonment, and which, indeed, he must feel as long as memory and consciousness remained. The system of prison discipline required the vigilant superintendence of Parliament. Let it be recollected, also, that the same punishment might be inflicted on persons convicted of other than political libels. At this moment many of the Conservative booksellers in Manchester were exposed to proceedings for publishing in a collected form the words of one of the greatest poets that ever adorned this country. Such proceedings were disgraceful to those who had instituted them; it would be disgraceful to the Attorney-general if he did not put a stop to them; and it was disgraceful to the law that they should ever have been begun. He should be disposed, if this motion were pressed to a division, to support it unless he received from the Government an assurance, that in future the letter of the law should be adhered to.
Lord J. Russellwas rather surprised to hear that his learned Friend intended to vote for this motion, or that he wished to receive from the Government some vain and unsubstantial declaration, as a substitute for it. The hon. Gentleman wished to have some declaration that the law should be executed in a certain manner, which he did not devise; and the hon. Member for Bridport said, he hoped the Government would assure the House that the punishment of political offenders should be executed in a manner which the public would sanction. He felt, however, that he was incapable of giving any such assurance. How could he say that the law would be executed in any other manner than that
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in which the law pointed out? How was he to know the variations which public feeling were to undergo on this point? The petition which his hon. Friend presented, and which was printed, with another petition which contradicted it, that contradiction might remain unknown, and that petition, full of unfounded statements, might greatly influence the public on that subject. As to this motion, he would first ask, what were the words?
"A large number of persons have since been convicted of offences of a similar character, and the greatest portion of those persons, contrary to custom, are, as well as the above-mentioned William Lovett and John Collins, placed on the criminal side of the gaols to which they have been respectively sent, and are there treated after the manner of persons convicted of the most heinous and detestable crimes."
What did that mean, but that no person convicted of political offences should be hereafter placed on the criminal side of the gaol. If there were any sense at all in the resolution, that was the meaning of it. The hon. and learned Member for Reading said, it was unfair to enter into the nature of the offence; the real question was, whether persons convicted according to law should be punished according to that law, or that something should be added to the system of prison discipline; but that was changing the whole question. The motion of the hon. Member for Finsbury was, that political offences were different from others, and that the treatment ought to be different. If that were applicable to all cases, then the course was to bring in a law to alter prison discipline in respect to such offenders. That was the true remedy. But the object was, to have some great sympathy excited for these political offenders. It was no easy matter, when the country was in a state of very great disturbance, and, in places, on the eve of a riot—when they heard of houses destroyed in one place, parties marching in arms in another, and persons from all sides asking for protection of troops and a more rigorous enforcement of the laws—it was no easy matter to meet all those dangers and to enforce the law, without bringing before the proper tribunals, and obtaining the punishment of those persons, who put in jeopardy and alarm the persons and property of the well-disposed part of the community. But, after that was executed, when those persons were imprisoned, and the country

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was in peace, then to bring, for ward the cases of those persons, because one had not got the diet which he thought suited him, and another sat on a stone floor, was not very difficult; and it was made to be: a great grievance, that persons convicted of misdemeanours only should be treated, after the same manner as persons who had been convicted of the most heinous crimes. He had observed the first petition of Mr. F. O'Connor, and he thought there appeared to be a readiness in it to make whatever plan adopted a grievance. The magistrates first put him into one particular class of misdemeanants. He complained of that. They then told him, he should not be confined with those persons, and that he should have separate confinement; but he then complained of suffering solitary confinement. With regard to the case of Lovett and Collins, he thought it was necessary to show, that there was great distinction between common seditious libels and the offences of which those persons had been guilty. He thought persons writing newspapers, and using in the course of that discussion seditious language, and were then convicted of seditious libel, that might not be a very grave species of offence; but what was the offence of these persons? They had resisted the London police at Birmingham, and had aroused the people against them, calling them bloodthirsty police; telling the people they were the best judges of what was their own strength and their own resources, and clearly implying that persons ought to use force to resist those who maintained the authority of the law. What were the circumstances? A great mob was collected, great outrages were committed, two or three houses were set fire to, and they were only resisted in their course by the military. What was the consequence of that? First, a great loss of property, and danger to innocent persons; next, that persons were found guilty of breaking into those houses, convicted of a capital offence, and it was only by the mercy of the Crown that they were saved from execution. Now, would they say, that persons exciting the people of Birmingham to rise against the lawful authorities were to be compared to ordinary seditious libellers? Therefore, when he saw a complaint of one of those prisoners who were confined for such an offence, of a number of petty details, no doubt annoying in themselves, but all of which did not amount to much, he must
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say, that the attempt to excite great sympathy was somewhat out of place, and that the innocent and peaceable inhabitants of Birmingham, who suffered in their property in consequence of those outrages, and even those persons who were led into crime by such instigations, were far more deserving of pity than those who had suffered one year's imprisonment in consequence of offences which were called simply sedition libels. The hon. Member for Bridport had read a paper, containing an account of the regulation of gaols formerly, when all prisoners followed their own amusements, and there was a great relaxation of prison discipline. But if rules of prisons were made more severe, without special exceptions, he believed it would be difficult to give the same indulgence now. He thought that as these cases had arisen, they had been treated by his noble Friend, Lord Normanby, with all the attention they could require; and the hon. and learned Member for Reading did not deny that, in the case of Vincent, where it was made clear that there had been undue severity towards him, he was transferred to another gaol; and when a complaint was made of this treatment in another gaol, the magistrates, in conjunction with the Secretary of State, paid immediate attention to that complaint. The hon. Member for Bridport had adverted to another bill, which had been sent in last year to the other House, and when his noble Friend Lord Normanby saw a clause in it respecting political offences, he said, there were cases of political libels, as well as other kinds, such as being concerned in a duel, by which persons might be guilty of misdemeanour, and in which it might not be proper to enforce all the rules of the prison; and, therefore, proposed that persons committed for misdemeanour should be divided into two classes. He thought that met the justice of the case. He thought, also, that the character of political offences did contain other cases to which the full extent of prison discipline ought by no means to be extended. They had seen, in one case, that the judge had thought proper to sentence one of those persons to hard labour; that could not be a case to which such indulgence could be applied. Upon the whole, he trusted that the House would not agree to this vague resolution. It was impossible to say what would be the effect of it; but it seemed to him to be one of those reso-

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lutions, which made a complaint of the general administration of justice in the country, and without answering any beneficial end.
Mr. Humesaid, the noble Lord seemed to vindicate the severity which had been exercised, and the degradation which had been practised towards persons who were now confined for political offences, and the noble Lord defended it boldly, and said the magistrates were not to blame, but that it was the Government that was to blame. What was the crime of these persons? They had endeavoured to bring forward the charter of the people, and to produce a change in the Government. Now, in 1833, what was the state of public feeling, and what was imputed to him, and others on that occasion, when they wanted an extension of the suffrage and an abolition of the abuses of the representation in this House? Did he not recollect the right hon. Baronet, the Member for Pembroke, saying they had gone to the very verge of the law? Every charge that was made against them in 1832, was the same as the charges now brought forward by the noble Lord against these persons on this occasion. The noble Lord had mixed up meetings which were held for obtaining the charter with burning of houses and other offences, and what was the fate of these men, guilty only of political agitation? They were treated like felons. But he asked the House to look at the course pursued by the Tory Government in the cases of Sir Charles Wolsley and Mr. Edmunds. Were they treated as felons? Certainly not. The noble Lord, and those who sat upon the bench with him, were quite as culpable as Carrier, Potts, and Roberts, in getting up public meetings. The noble Lord, in the course he was taking, was acting a most ungenerous part. He did not look at the state of the country, nor the state of feeling naturally excited by the desire to obtain constitutional reform. It was very easy to charge persons with calling a seditious meeting, for if the meeting failed in its object, there was no difficulty in accusing all who attended that meeting with sedition. The noble Lord had not treated the motion of the hon. Member with fairness. If the noble Lord had attended to the tone of public meetings of late, with reference to the treatment of political offenders, he would find there was no necessity to excite public feeling,
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for the feeling on the subject was already sufficiently acute. The treatment of political offenders at the present day was infinitely more severe than in former times. He regretted the speech of the noble Lord, for he considered that to the noble Lord was mainly to be attributed that additional harshness with which political offenders were now visited. He reminded the noble Lord that it was by public meetings and by public feeling that he was introduced to office, and retained in office.
Sir R. Peelsaid, in the last and preceding Sessions, when the country broke out into disturbance, he had strenuously advocated the propriety of trying the efficacy of the old laws, before the Government resorted to new laws. On that, as on other occasions, he had noticed a disposition to underrate the real vigour of the existing statute laws of England; and when he gave the advice which he did on those occasions, it was in the expectation that the laws as they then stood, would be carried into effect with vigour and impartiality. He expected that two classes would be found on whom it would be necessary to enforce the law. The first class consisted of ignorant persons who resorted to physical force to carry out their objects; and the next class were those who had deluded those ignorant persons—who, by means of superior art and the power that the press afford them, brought physical force into action—themselves remaining in the back ground in safety. He had sympathy for those ignorant and deluded men who broke the law by overt acts. He repeated, he had more sympathy for those poor men than for those who perverted the public press—an engine that ought to be used only for the purpose of spreading sound information—to mercenary and wicked objects, thereby deluding others, and, if successful, coming forward and reaping, as assuredly they would—the whole of the harvest; but in case of failure, leaving their dupes to sustain the whole weight of punishment. He had no sympathy for that seditious class of libellers who worked on popular feeling by putting forth exaggerated statements—who dealt in falsehoods or perversions of facts. For such persons, he confessed, he felt no sympathy; but at the same time those persons ought not to be subjected to any punishment which the law did not sanction. But the question now was, did the law, asit at present stood, authorise the infliction which

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the complaining parties had sustained? If it did not they had their remedy, for the law would never tolerate any species of illegal imprisonment. If the law was broken in this instance, why did not those who professed sympathy for the sufferers appeal to the courts of law? If the sentence were such as the law warranted, let them try to alter the law; but if the law were violated, the aggrieved parties were entitled to redress. He was the person who, in 1824, introduced the present law. Not the magistrates, not the gaolers he contended, nor the executive government, but the House of Commons, he contended were in fault. From the time when the law was first introduced, a great change of feeling had taken place. In 1824, complaint was made that a distinction was made between the rich and the poor. It was urged, that persons committing the same offence were treated differently. That severity was exercised towards the poor, and laxity practised towards the rich; that the poor were kept strictly, while the rich were permitted comforts, and to have the visits of their friends. On account of that state of feeling the law was altered. The argument then was—if those offences were committed by educated men, they deserved less sympathy than ignorant men. On that ground the House of Commons called upon the executive government not to make a distinction between the rich and the poor, alleging that though the punishment might be heavier on the first class than on the second, yet this was but just, as the educated and rich man had not the same temptation to break the law that the poor man had. The poor man's want of knowledge formed a partial excuse, but the rich roan's education left his fault without palliation. This doctrine, however, ought not to be pushed to an extreme, for there could be no doubt, that the same degree of punishment operated with greater severity on one class than on another. If, however, they now, from the altered state of feeling, complained of the law which the state of feeling in 1824 rendered necessary, the remedy was not by resolutions against magistrates or gaolers, but in the alteration of the law. He objected to the resolution proposed by the hon. Member on another ground. The whole of the debate on the subject had left an impression on his mind, that the House of Commons was not the proper place to discuss the matter the proper
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place was a court of law. If Mr. F. O'Connor had been punished for a political offence, and the subject of punishment for political offences was brought before the House, why was the matter confined to that particular question?—why did they not go further? If one person was punished for a political offence, that ought not to be the foundation for altering the law. If the House proceeded on such a principle of legislation, the whole four days would not be adequate to get through the business, nor did he know any species of machinery which would be sufficiently effective to do what was required. Then, again, he objected to dealing with this case by resolution. The only effectual way of dealing with it was by a law. The introduction of the word "political offences," must have convinced the hon. Member for Finsbury, that it was impossible for the House of Commons to agree to the resolution in its present form. The resolution declared the opinion of the House, that such a mode of carrying out the penalties of the law for "political offences" was unaccustomed. Yes; but it did not say seditious libels. "Political offences" was a more general designation than was applicable to the case. The resolution said, that the practice was contrary to custom. He admitted it to be contrary to what the custom was before it was altered, but the intention was to alter the custom. He admitted, that the punishment dealt out to political libels (distinguished from overt acts of violence) was more severe, but there were parties who had not committed overt acts of violence, but who gave instructions to a mob how to meet a military force. Such instructions had been sent to Birmingham and Newport, not saying, "I advise you to rise, and I will share your danger and lead the attacks," but giving extracts from foreign publications, showing the more effectual means, by the aid of pikes and other weapons, of resisting a military force. Detailed instructions were given how this should be done, partaking in a great degree of the nature of the philosophical treatise upon Lucifer matches. Could any one doubt, that it was the intention of the persons who sent these instructions to excite the people to violence, and that they were more dangerous persons, and less entitled to sympathy than the poor peasant, earning nine or ten shillings a week, who read the treatise,

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and then placed the Lucifer matches under a hay-rick. He would not be a party to the House of Commons expressing any sympathy for seditious libels. If the House thought proper to pass a law, it could declare what seditious libels should be exempt from severity or degradation, and what should not; but if they merely came to general resolutions, no one would know what was meant; but the time would come when the resolutions of the House of Commons would be appealed to, and when the country was in a state of excitement, interested parties would say—"the opinion of the House of Commons is in your favour—the House of Commons, passing by murder and arson, show sympathy only in favour of political offences." Then the resolutions went on to say, that no restriction or degradation should be inflicted beyond what the safe custody of the prisoner required. Who was to be the judge of this? There must be a different rule in every gaol in the kingdom. The gaoler of one gaol would say, "There must be greater restriction in this gaol than in others, for I am responsible for the safe custody of the party, and therefore the degradation which is inflicted is not for the sake of degration, but for safe custody." Who was to judge of this—the House of Commons? How could they? If they differed from one gaoler and the magistrates, were they to bring the parties before them—not for a breach of the law, but a violation of their resolution? Suppose the gaoler said his measures were not at variance with the law, but only with the resolution of that House. It appeared to him, that the hon. Member was claiming by resolution to lay down a law in prison matters. He believed, that it was of importance that punishment should be so meted out as to carry the public sympathy with it. But he had yet to learn that the public sympathy was with those offences, and he believed if such offences should occur again at Birmingham and Newport—if they adopted a misplaced lenity, so far from the public sympathy being with them, the public indignation would be directed against the House of Commons. If the law were in a bad state, let them apply themselves to its consideration, and calmly and maturely altering it where it required alteraation, but let them not pass equivocal resolutions which might be at variance with the law, which the subordinate offi-
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cers of the law could not understand, which would be a delusion upon the people, and which would show that the House of Commons sympathised with a class of persons who were entitled to no sympathy, and met with no sympathy from the public.
Mr. Aglionbyfelt it his duty to vote for he motion of his hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury. The returns on the table were quite sufficient to justify that vote; and there was no want of precedents to show that such motions had before now been entertained, as they certainly were most fit subjects for the consideration of the House. He repudiated all sympathy with those who infringed the public peace by inciting the people to arson, or any attempt that could endanger life or property; but he had a strong feeling that punishment ought to be apportioned to the offence, and that the more it carried public feeling with it, the more certain it was to be effectual.
Mr. C. Bullersaid, that strongly as the resolution was worded, he should vote for it, because it expressed the feeling which he believed the great majority of his countrymen entertained, that there had been a most unjust severity of treatment towards those persons who were imprisoned for seditious libels. But what was the punishment which Sir Francis Burdett, who was charged with having—when a mob had been put down by the lawful exercise of the law of the land, and when blood had been shed—with having chosen to write an inflammatory letter, exciting the people against the constituted authorities of the country? That was held to be an offence in the eye of the law, whether justly or not was another question; but he contended, that the same principle ought to be applied to these same persons as had been applied to Sir Francis Burdett and others. Sir Francis Bardett had never been doomed to be washed in a common bath with felons; he had never been made to trot round a ring with felons "for exercise" as it was termed. Sir Francis Burdett had never had inflicted upon him the illegal punishment of the itch. It was the basest and most stupid system of arbitrary power to attempt to confound the two descriptions of offences, and to treat political offences like those of felons.
Mr. Hamiltonsupported the motion of the hon. Member for Finsbury. He

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thought it was clearly shown by this debate, that a different classification of prisoners was required. All the arguments that had been used by hon. Members on both sides, confirmed his previous conviction that it was most unwise to place prisoners convicted for misdemeanours and those incarcerated for political offences in the same wards, and subjected to the same discipline. He was no advocate for offences of this kind, but where so much freedom was used in debates in this House, he thought some allowance ought to be made to those who followed their example, and he should therefore vote for the resolution.
Mr. Williamsrose to move, that the debate should be adjourned to Friday next, but in compliance with the wish of the House, proceeded, and contrasted the treatment of former political offenders with those whose case was now before the House. Would the right hon. Baronet have suffered Sir Francis Burdett to be imprisoned and treated in such a manner? He was certain that he would not; and, moreover, that if he had been in power, he would not have suffered it in the case of these persons. The question was not whether these men had been guilty of seditious offences of greater or less magnitude, but whether their treatment in prison was such as it ought to have been? He thought the conduct of the Government had been highly reprehensible, and he should, therefore, vote for the motion of the hon. Member for Finsbury.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, no one regretted more than he did, any unnecessary harshness that might have been shown to those convicted in the recent prosecutions. He believed, that when such cases were brought before the consideration of the Government, they had been corrected as soon as the information had been received. But when he found attempts made to excite sympathy in favour of those convicted by exclaiming against the new hardships of instituting these convictions, he felt it his duty to enter his protest against it. In former times, political offences were understood to be attacks upon the Minister of the day. Whatever gave offence to the feelings of individuals was a libel, and the Attorney-generals of former times used to file informations ex officio for such publications as libels. He was not then going to enter into an invidious distinction between the present and past Govern
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ments, but the prosecutions for what were now called political offences, were for direct incitements to crime. He had had the honour of being Attorney-general longer than any individual during the present century, yet he had filed only one ex officio information for a libel, and in conducting that prosecution, he had told the jury that unless they believed the defend and intentions was to incite to insurrection and plunder it would be their duty to acquit him. That question was put by the judge to the jury, who, without hesitation, found a verdict of guilty. Now, he said, the individual thus found guilty ought not to be treated with unnecessary harshness, but was this person to be considered as guilty only of what was called a political offence, and to have the sympathies of mankind called forth in his favour as one who was persecuted and oppressed? He was engaged in prosecutions at Newport, Bradford, and Sheffield, in which the prisoners were convicted, and were now undergoing the sentences of transportation or imprisonment. Mr. Feargus O'Connor boasted that he had not appeared in any of those transactions, but he said, that the publication of that which had a direct tendency, and with the intention to excite to crime, was one equal to that of which those persons had been convicted. This was the only ex officio information he had filed. He had presented bills to the grand juries, and it was owing to these, and the petty juries having done their duty, and taken a different view of the case to some hon. Gentlemen, that the peace of the country had been preserved. He thought it his duty to protest against exciting sympathy in favour of those who had violated the law, and committed offences which the safety of the country required should be visited with severe punishment.
Mr. Muntzsaid, some hon. Members had expressed surprise that he had taken no part in the debate, but at the period the disturbances which had been adverted to occurred in Birmingham, he was 200 miles distant from that place, and all he knew on the subject was from hearsay. But with respect to the motion before the House, whether the blame—for there was blame somewhere—attached to the Government or to the magistrates, was the same thing to him, and to Lovett and Collins, and as the resolution only stated there was blame, he should support it.
Mr. T. Duncomberose to explain, with reference to the petition which he had presented, and to which allusion had been made. Vincent wrote to him, informing him of the hardship he endured from the severity of the prison discipline, and added:—
"If you think that a petition would have any effect, and will make it known to us by letter, we will immediately forward one for presentation."
Whereupon he wrote him;—
"I have received your letter, and think the best thing you can do will be for each to send me a petition, setting forth all the circumstances connected with his case, taking care, that the allegations are short and clear, and above all, that every fact touching your treatment is rather under than over-stated, and I will again to call the attention of the House to the subject."
There was, therefore, no ground for saying he sought the petitions, for the petitions sought him, and he felt it his duty to present them, as he now did, to take the sense of the House on the motion.
The House divided on the original question:—Ayes 117; Noes 29: Majority 88.

List of the AYES.

Abercromby, hn. G.R.

Gladstone, W. E.

Adam, Admiral

Gordon, R.

Anson, hon. Colonel

Goulburn, rt. hn. H.

Archbold, R.

Graham, rt. hn Sir J.

Bailey, J. jun.

Greene, T.

Baldwin, C. B.

Greenaway, C.

Baring, rt. hn. F. T.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Barnard, E. G.

Grimsditch, T.

Bewes, T.

Hale, R. B.

Blackburne, I.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Blake, W. J.

Hawkins, J. H.

Botfield, B.

Heathcoat, G. J.

Broadley, H.

Hobhouse, rt. hn. Sir J.

Brocklehurst, J.

Hodges, T. L.

Brodie, W. B.

Hodgson, R.

Brownrigg, S.

Hogg, J. W.

Bruce, C. L. C.

Holmes, W.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Hope, hon. C.

Buller, Sir J. Y.

Hope, G. W.

Burrell, Sir C.

Horsman, E.

Busfeild, W.

Hoskins, K.

Campbell, Sir J.

Howard, hn. E.G. G.

Canning, rt. hn. Sir S.

Hughes, W. B.

Clay, W.

Hurst, R. H.

Cochrane, Sir T. J.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Dalmeny, Lord

Jackson, Mr. Sergeant

Darby, G.

Jones, Captain

Douglas, Sir C. E.

Kemble, H.

Eliot, Lord

Knight, H. G.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Labouchere, rt. hn. H.

Estcourt, T.

Lemon, Sir C.

Farnham, E. B.

Lowther, hon. Col.

Fitzsimon, N.

Lushington, C.

656

Macaulay, rt. hn. T.B

Sibthorp, Colonel

Mackenzie, W. F.

Slaney, R. A.

M'Taggart, J.

Smith, R. V.

Marshall, W.

Sotheron, T. E.

Melgund, Visct.

Stanley, hon. E. J.

Mildmay, P. St. J.

Stansfield, W. R.

Morpeth, Visct.

Steuart, R.

Morris, D.

Stewart, J.

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Stuart, Lord J.

Palmerston, Visct.

Strutt, E,

Peel, rt. hon. Sir R.

Style, Sir C.

Pendarves, E. W.W.

Talbot, C. R. M.

Perceval, Colonel

Tancred, H. W.

Pigot, D. R.

Troubridge, Sir E. T.

Price, Sir R.

Tufnell, H.

Protheroe, E.

Villiers, Viscount

Pryme, G.

Vivian, J. E.

Rae, rt. hon. Sir W,

Vivian, rt. hn. Sir R. H.

Rawdon, Col. J. D.

Waddington, H. S.

Rolleston, L.

Westenra, hon. H. R.

Round, J.

Williams, W. A.

Rundle, J.

Wood, G. W.

Russell, Lord J.

Wrightson, W. B.

Scrope, G. P.

Young, J.

Seale, Sir J. H.

TELLERS.

Seymour, Lord

Maule, hon. F.

Sheil, rt. hn. R. L.

Parker, J.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, H. A.

Redington, T. N.

Bridgeman, H.

Salwey, Colonel

Brotherton, J.

Scholefield, J.

Buller, C.

Somers, J. P.

Collins, W.

Talfourd, Mr. Serg.

Ewart, W.

Vigors, N. A.

Fielden, J.

Villiers, hon. C. P.

Finch, F.

Wakley, T.

Hamilton, C. J. B.

Wallace, R.

Hector, C. J.

Warburton, H.

Hindley, C.

Ward, H. G.

Hume, J.

Williams, W.

Jervis, J.

Wood, B.

Leader, J.T.

TELLERS.

Muntz, G. F.

Duncombe, T.

O'Brien, C.

D'Israeli, B.

Order of the Day read.—Estimates presented.—Committee of Supply deferred.

MINUTES.
Bills. Read a first time:—Sale of Beer.—Read a second time:—Masters in Chancery.

TIMBER SHIPS.
On the motion of Viscount Duncannon, the House resolved itself into Committee on the Timber Ships Bill.
On the first clause,
Lord Colchesterrose for the purpose of moving the omission of certain words in order that its operation might be more extensive. The object of the bill was to prevent the great loss of vessels employed in the transportation of timber from North America. In the last session a committee of the House of Commons had been appointed to inquire into the subject, and from the evidence adduced before that committee it appeared that the loss of vessels employed in this trade had for a series of years been lamentably great. The committee, in their report, state—
"In 1838, eighteen ships are reported as wrecked on the shore, and forty-eight at sea; of twenty-seven of which there had been no accounts of the crews; of the remaining twenty-one the sufferings of the crews of two had been extreme; in one, the Earl Moira, four bodies only having been found under the maintop, all dead, with part of one of their comrades hung up like butcher's meat in a stall; and in the other, the Anna Maria, five bodies were found dead, with part of the leg of a woman by the side of one of them, who had evidently been feeding upon it; and one more, the Frederick, of St. John's, fallen in with by the Hope, with her crew lashed to the maintop, without the power of assisting them."
The noble Lord quoted other passages from the report to show that no less than
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73 ships, with crews amounting to 949 men, were lost in three years. The committee having thus stated their opinion that the carrying of deck loads of timber was the cause of such a fearful loss of life and property, an act was passed, in conformity with their recommendation, confining to the summer months the liberty of loading the decks with timber, and excluding the winter months. That measure, however, only applied to vessels crossing the Atlantic to the ports of the United Kingdom, and he wished to extend it to vessels proceeding to the West India colonies. He should, therefore, propose to strike out the word "any ports of the United Kingdom," for the purpose of rendering the provisions of the bill more extensively efficient.
Viscount Duncannonbelieved, that the noble Lord had not exaggerated the extent of the losses sustained in this particular trade; and he also was of opinion that those losses were occasioned by piling up large quantities of timber on the decks of these vessels. He was anxious to adopt any measure that appeared likely to check such an evil; but many difficulties presented themselves against adopting the proposition of the noble Lord. Last year, when the subject was under consideration, the strongest possible representations were made to the Government from Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, all of them setting forth, that if the bill was attempted to be applied to the colonial passages of timber ships, it would, in fact, put an end to that part of the trade between North America and the West Indies, which was one of the most important portions of their traffic. He could not, therefore, agree to the amendment.
Lord Ashburtonconcurred in the observations of the noble Viscount: if the restriction, with respect to deck-loading, were extended to timber ships bound to the West-India colonies, it would immediately put an end to the trade in lumber.
Amendment withdrawn, bill went through Committee.
House resumed.

TEETOTALERS (IRELAND).
The Marquess of Westmeathsaid, he saw by the papers of this day a proclamation, purporting to have been issued by the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, on the subject of what was called "the Teetotalers' pledge."

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If that proclamation was authentic, it contained one sentence which he must say greatly surprised him, and which he much regretted to see. The passage was this:—" To the benefit which the temperance pledge has conferred upon Ireland in the improved habits of the people, and the diminution of outrage, his excellency bears a willing and grateful testimony." With respect to the merits of sobriety, he would not say one word; but it astonished him to find the representative of the Sovereign expressing his approbation of what was called "the Temperance pledge," which he considered to be nothing else than a piece of mere slipslop. The necessity of cultivating sobriety was, or ought to be, impressed on the mind of every Christian. He thought that the noble Lord was trifling with the duties of his high office when he expressed his approbation officially of a Popish device. A sort of popularity might be gained by the course which the noble Lord had taken; but it was that species of popularity which he believed individuals in that House would seek to gain. He asked whether the proclamation were authentic or not.
The Marquess of Normanbyhad received no official information on the subject. He had, however, seen the proclamation, and he had no reason to doubt its authenticity. He believed, that the pledge to which the noble Marquess alluded had produced very great and beneficial effects. He would not dispute with the noble Marquess about the "pledge" being "slipslop;" but he would say, that from all the information which he had received on the subject, he was convinced that a most beneficial change had been effected amongst the people by what the noble Marquess had been pleased to denominate a "Popish device."
The Duke of Wellingtonsaid, the proclamation contained matter more worthy of observation than that to which the noble Marquess had referred. He alluded to the new law which it laid down. The old doctrine was, that the assembling of large bodies of people to create terror was illegal, and it was forbidden. Here, however, it appeared that large bodies of people, sufficient to create terror, had assembled—as, in the town of Clonmel, where a large procession sufficient to create terror had assembled: but those assemblages appeared not to have been
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forbidden on that account, but on account of their wearing certain badges. The best course would be, not to allow the people to assemble, under any circumstances, in such numbers as to create terror. That was the true doctrine of the law he believed; but not a word was said upon that point in the proclamation.
The Earl of Devonconfessed that he had heard with great regret the observations of the noble Marquess. He was sorry that it should go forth that one of the Members of their Lordships' House had expressed such an opinion of what had been beneficially going on for some time in Ireland. He did not wish to commit himself by speaking decidedly; but his individual opinion was, so far as he had an opportunity of judging that a great and substantial good had been done. He believed that it had been effected by perfectly legitimate means and legitimate exertions, and that it was as little connected with fanaticism, with party, or with appeals to religious feelings of a peculiar character, as could be imagined. He had himself heard Father Mathew address the people; and his manner was such as any noble Lord who heard him might adopt in addressing a public body in support of such an object. It was, he conceived, pessimi exempli to speak in reproachful terms of that which had been productive of very great good.
The Earl of Wicklowdiffered in opinion from the noble Marquess (Westmeath). He thought that the temperance societies were calculated to effect much good, and the individual who had devoted himself to the futherance of the plan deserved the greatest praise for what he was doing. The temperance societies, he believed, were set on foot with the best motives, but there were parties who would not scruple to make them subservient to other purposes, and use them as instruments to create alarm.
The Marquess of Westmeathdid not wish to withdraw any expression he had used, because he had expressed the sentiments of his mind. He had formerly stated, that he loved sobriety as much as any man, and that he sincerely wished the people to abstain from drunkenness. He did not regret that the people should be sober; but he did not approve of the Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, by an act of his government, bringing prominently forward this "Temperance pledge" as the

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great means of amending the morals and manners of the people.
Subject dropped.

CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Earl of Aberdeenwould take the opportunity of answering a question which was addressed to him by a noble Duke on the cross bench the other day, and which he could no longer defer answering, although he perceived the noble Duke was not then present. The question referred to the future progress of the Scotch Churches Benefices Bill, and, upon the best consideration which he could give to the subject, he had come to the conclusion, although very reluctantly, that it would not be expedient for him to press the third reading of the bill during the present session. Their Lordships were aware that this measure was opposed by the majority of the General Assembly on the ground of its unwarrantable interference with the spiritual independence and proper jurisdiction of the Church, and indeed he (the Earl of Aberdeen) had been described in consequence of having brought this bill into Parliament as the enemy and persecutor of the Church. Their Lordships were also aware that out of the Church of Scotland the only reason assigned for offering any opposition to the measure was, that it conceded too large powers to the Church, and recognized an extent of jurisdiction that was quite unjustifiable. Now, he had endeavoured to show, and he thought had shown, that an opinion of this kind was without foundation, but he would admit, that if he had erred at all, it was undoubtedly on the side of a too large and liberal concession to the Church of Scotland. The pretensions of the General Assembly were so manifestly unreasonable and preposterous, that if the bill had passed into a law he might safely have hoped for the acquiescence of a large body of the clergy and a majority of the laity of the General Assembly, from whom he had received several communications stating their approbation of the measure. Unfortunately, however, her Majesty's Government had thought proper to oppose the progress of this bill. Now, the measure was intended to promote peace, and he was unwilling to do anything which could deprive it of that character, more especially as he was sure that if any measure could be carried into effect which should tend to the pre-
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servation of the welfare and the interests of the Church it must be one which took for its basis the bill which he had proposed. The objection, however, which her Majesty's Ministers took to the bill, although perfectly different from those entertained by the majority of the General Assembly, still arriving at the same conclusion and practical result, he feared that the evils which he had hoped to obviate by the passing of the bill, would not be removed if he carried it in opposition to her Majesty's Government. The noble Viscount had cautiously abstained from expressing any opinion upon the merits of the bill itself, but the noble Viscount's colleagues entertained objections to the bill in consequence of the great powers which it gave to the Church. As both objections, however, agreed in their practical conclusion, he was led to fear, that at the meeting of the General Assembly next month, the same intemperate course which had already been pursued would be adopted, and the same illegal opposition offered to the law. In withdrawing this bill for the present session of Parliament, he was aware that he should excite great dissatisfaction on the part of a very numerous body in Scotland, and cause great disappointment. It was only this morning that he had received a letter from a minister in the west of Scotland, who had heard a report of his intention to withdraw the bill, and who said,
"If this be so, I can only assure your Lordships that you will disappoint nine-tenths of the people in this district, and, I believe, in the whole of Scotland."
He had received similar letters from many other quarters, and if the noble Viscount had not thought it his duty to oppose the bill, he believed that a great proportion of the people of Scotland who had opposed the measure would have acquiesced in it. The gentleman to whose letter he had referred said,
"It is the opinion of very many, and it is decidedly my own, that many of the clergy and elders who opposed the bill in the present Assembly would be glad of an opportunity of retracing their steps if they could do so."
He believed, that a great number of the rational and orderly members of the Church were in favour of this measure. He had been unwilling, for the reasons which he had stated, to complicate the difficulties which existed, or to create any fresh

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difficulty, which would rather provoke opposition than conciliate obedience, and, therefore, he should leave the Jaw in the state in which it was before he undertook this measure, and which he begged the noble Viscount would recollect he did not undertake until the noble Viscount had said, that he would not bring forward any measure on the subject. A large party in the Church had cast in their lot with the suspended ministers, and had determined to support them in their obedience to the law of the land, which had led to the sentence of deposition. It was for the noble Viscount and the Government to consider whether such a state of circumstances as this should be permitted to continue. He must also observe, that several parishes had been vacant two or three years, and it was, he apprehended, the duty of the State to see that these parishes were filled up. He would fain hope that, although no measure had been passed in the course of the present Session, the discussions which had taken place upon this bill might not be altogether without their use. He did not inquire what had induced her Majesty's Ministers to take the course which they had chosen. It was needless to add, that the subject was one of great urgency, and he hoped that the noble Viscount would turn his best attention to it, and endeavour if possible to restore peace to the Church.
The Earl of Haddingtoncould not help expressing his unfeigned sorrow at this issue of his noble Friend's disinterested exertions. Although no doubt his noble Friend was the best judge of the propriety of withdrawing his bill, he could not help expressing his conviction that this good, at least, would have resulted from discussions upon the bill in the other House of Parliament—namely, that the vehement and imprudent leaders of the dominant party in the Assembly would have plainly seen that few, indeed, were the individuals who opposed the bill upon the ground which they themselves had taken. He could not help thinking that the Ministers of the Crown had taken upon themselves a very serious responsibility in opposing this measure. He did not say, that Ministers ought to have given the measure a full and plenary approbation, but they need not have offered it any opposition, and might have left the responsibility with his noble Friend, in which case, in his firm opinion, many impending evils
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would have been averted. His noble Friend had been made the subject of much abuse and misrepresentation with regard to this question. But if there were anything more plain than another it was this, that the principles which he had laid down at the commencement were contained in the present bill, and that in no other way could he have fairly carried out those principles. He would add that he considered the country deeply indebted to his noble Friend, and he felt quite assured that those who had raised this opposition against him would never from any other quarter get anything so favourable as the provisions of this bill.
The Earl of Camperdownentirely concurred with all that had fallen from a noble Earl who had spoken last as to the conduct of the noble Earl who had introduced this bill.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
Report of the Committee on the Municipal Corporations (Ireland) Bill brought up.
The Bishop of Exeter,in reference to a conversation which had taken place on a previous evening between him and the Marquess of Lansdowne, observed that when the noble Marquess referred to the evidence of Alderman Beresford as to the mismanagement of the property of Dublin; he forgot to quote the next words of the alderman's testimony, namely, that "he did not recollect any thing of this kind to have occurred for the last sixty years." The noble Marquess had also urged as a charge against them their granting leases to corporators. True, Alderman Beresford said this, but when? Why, these leases were made out about sixty-six years ago. All this was stated distinctly in the report of the commissioners: "But we do not find any instance of this nature occurring within the last sixty years." Was he not borne out, then, in saying that the corporation of Dublin had no charges of this kind brought against them which they were in any way bound to answer? Was it quite fair in the noble Marquess, imposed on by this garbled statement, to get up in his place, and make so strong and emphatic a charge of disingenuous, ness, not only against the individual who now addressed them, but also against the learned counsel.
The Marquess of Lansdownehad certainly referred their Lordships to the

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evidence lying on their table, and among the rest to that of Alderman Beresford. He did not say, that this evidence referred to recent transactions, but to the transactions of the corporation generally. But he stated that, upon the evidence of more than one alderman, they had the fact that, for the last fifty years, its interest had been mismanaged. This he had quoted to the House. He had not the papers with him, but he would be able to quote them, if necessary, hereafter. The statement of the learned counsel at the bar was contradicted as to recent circumstances in their conduct—circumstances occurring within the last ten years in the history of the court of conscience, to which neither the right rev. Prelate nor the learned counsel adverted in the history of the pipe-water, to which the right rev. Prelate did not advert, and which was displayed in repeated exactions and impositions, of which the poor were the victims.
The Earl of Glengallsaid, the noble Marquess, the Secretary for the Home Department, had been misinformed as to one of the statements which he had made on a former evening. The noble Marquess had stated that Alderman Montgomery had had an opportunity afforded him of revising the evidence he had given. Such, however, was not the case, for the commission closed its labours suddenly, and several years were allowed to elapse before the shorthand writers' notes were written out. Alderman Montgomery had never had an opportunity of revising his evidence.
The Marquess of Normanbywould repeat that the learned counsel had stated at the bar that Alderman Montgomery had said, he had attended twenty grand juries, on each of which there were three Roman Catholics, and that statement he would again say, was not borne out by the evidence taken before the commissioners.
Lord Lyndhurstproposed a number of verbal amendments on the different clauses of the bill, which were agreed to, and said he would reserve those which might give rise to discussion till the third reading. The noble and learned Lord then said, he wished particularly to call the attention of the noble Viscount at the head of the Government to a defect in this measure. He must tell the noble Viscount that he would never give his assent to a bill which
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took away the property of any party without affording compensation. By this bill a number of persons would be deprived of their offices, and by no provision of the measure would compensation be given to those individuals. He could not consent to such injustice, and he should therefore give the noble Viscount a list of those persons whom he considered entitled to compensation, and he hoped the noble Viscount would consider the matter before the third reading of the bill.
Viscount Melbournewished to ask the noble Lord whether the persons alluded to were not included under the provisions of the bills.
Lord Lyndhurst.—No, they are not. There were a number of persons affected by this measure who were elected to their offices from year to year, but who were entitled to expect that they would be continued in their offices during life, and who ought, therefore, to receive compensation for the loss of those offices as in the English bill. There were, in particular, two officers who would be effected by this bill, and to whom no compensation would be given as the measure at present stood. Those two persons had the power to appoint each a deputy, and those deputies held their offices for no longer period than the chiefs. In the other House a clause had been introduced by some one, he did not know for what reason, which gave compensation to the deputies, but without giving anything to those who appointed them. Such a course was extremely unjust, and he could not consent to this bill unless compensation was made to those, parties to whom he had alluded.
The Duke of Wellingtonsuggested the expediency of altering the taxation clause of this bill in another place, so as to reduce the power of taxation in cases where lighting, paving, cleansing, &c were carried on under private acts, to 3d. in the pound, and to 1s. when undertaken by the corporation. He hoped the Government would take that point into consideration.
Report agreed to.

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE.
On moving that the House go into Committee on the Administration of Justice Bill.
The Lord Chancellorsaid, that the committee which had sat upon this bill had suggested an alteration which he was

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anxious to state. The bill left the appointment of successors to the two Vice-Chancellors in the hands of the Crown, and the alteration proposed was, that the Crown should only have the power of appointing a successor to one, and that the other should in the first instance be only appointed for life, thus rendering it necessary upon his death to apply to Parliament to appoint a successor in his place.
Lord Lyndhurstsaid, that the committee had examined the whole of this subject with the greatest minuteness, and had been perfectly unanimous upon every point they suggested.
Bill passed through Committee.