Sitting of 6 February 1840

MINUTES.
Bills. Road a first time:—Sale of Beer; Colonial Passengers.
Petitions presented. By Messrs. G. Evans, O'Connell, and S. O'Brien, from a number of places, for Extension of the Franchise, and Corporate Reform for Ireland.—By Earl Jermyn, and Colonel Rushbrooke, from several places, against any further Grant to Maynooth College.—By Sir R. H. Inglis, Mr. Pakington, and Lord Granville Somerset, from a number of places, for Increased Church Accommodation,—By Mr. Wallace, from a great number of Carriers, against the Monopoly of Railroad Companies.—By Sir G. Sinclair, and Mr. F. Maule, from places in Scotland, against Intruding Ministers into Parishes.—By Messrs. Alston, and Hume, from two places, for the Release of John Thorogood, and for the Abolition of Church Rates.

HILL COOLIES.
Sir J. Grahamwished to put a question to the noble Secretary for the Colonies respecting the Hill Coolies. He understood the noble Lord on a former night to declare that her Majesty's Government had come to a determination to renounce the resolution to which they had formerly come, respecting the deportation of Hill Coolies from the continent of India to the West Indies under eon-tract of low wages for labour, which they were to perform on their arrival in those colonies. He understood the noble Lord to say that such a change of decision was

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only contemplated, and that it had not yet been made. He likewise understood the noble Lord to say that the Government wished to have a discussion on the subject in that House before they made that change. He now wished to be informed of the time and occasion when her Majesty's Ministers would be prepared to explain the reasons for this contemplated change of policy. He likewise wished to know whether it were the intention of Ministers to extend their change of policy to the Hill Coolies to be transported to the West Indies, or to limit it only to those transported to the Mauritius. If the noble Lord would take a suggestion from him, he would suggest that a motion for leave to bring in a bill to carry his plan into execution, would afford the best opportunity for discussing the policy and tendency of the measure to be adopted for the emigration of the Hill Coolies.
Lord J. Russellwas understood to intimate that all he had said on a former occasion was, that he wished to have the opinion of Parliament on the policy of the measure he intended to adopt. He believed that that measure might be accomplished without the assistance of Parliament. At the same time he was inclined to agree with the right hon. Baronet, that the best mode, perhaps, of taking the sense of Parliament on the question, would be to introduce a bill on the subject. It certainly was a very material change, and he should be very glad to ascertain the opinion of Parliament as to its expediency. He would, therefore, take into his consideration the suggestion of the right hon. Baronet. In the mean time he would say that no further steps would be taken by Government until Parliament had decided whether they ought to be taken or not. He did not know whether the right hon. Baronet was aware that what he had stated on a former night had reference to the Mauritius alone.

PENNY POSTAGE.
Sir C. Knightley: Seeing the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, I wish to ask him whether he is aware that a person, who is in the habit of receiving annually large sums out of the Post-office, has recently been informed that he will no longer receive them from that department, but must get a warrant for them from the Stamp-office, as the Post-office is no longer able to pay its own expenses?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer: I have not heard of any such statement; and I think, that if such a circumstance had occurred, I must have been made acquainted with it.
Sir C. Knightley: I have not done with the right hon. Gentleman. I have another question to ask him. Is there any chance of his making fresh regulations for the management of the Post-office? I will tell the right hon. Gentleman why I ask that question. On the 18th of January last, the porter of the Carlton Club— [Laughter] Why should hon. Gentleman laugh? The Carlton Club is surely as respectable as the Reform Club. Well, on the 18th of January last, the porter of the Carlton Club went at twenty-five minutes to six o'clock with the letters of that club to the receiving-house at Char-ing-cross. There was such a crowd before it that he could not get with his letters to the window, so he went round to the door of the house. He was told that they did not take in letters there, and was in consequence obliged to try the window again. Whilst looking about him, he saw the porter of the Athenaeum close to the window, and he asked him to take his letters, mentioning their number and the money due for them. [Confusion in the House.] The man at the Post-office window, seeing this done by our porter, swore and cursed at him, and used very abusive language. I will now tell the House what happened to myself on Monday last. ["Order," from various parts of the House.]
The Speakersaid, there was no question before the House, and that he was, therefore, out of order, when
Sir C. Knightleyproceeded—I wish to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he intends to make any alteration in the regulations of the Post-office? And for this reason:—On Monday last, I put a letter into the Post office myself, and I put in another on Tuesday last. I have no doubt, therefore, that the letters were put into the Post-office. I have this day heard that neither the letter which I put into the post on Monday, nor that which I put into it on Tuesday, has yet been received. Another question which I have to ask relates to a money letter, which was sent up to London from the country. For several days the letter and the remittance were lost, but at last it was found that the letter-carrier had stolen the letter.

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I want to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer's new regulations had any hand in this?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer: If the hon. Baronet, instead of bringing his charges against the Post-office in a way in which the forms of the House almost preclude me from giving any answer to them, will have the goodness to put them down in writing, particularizing, at the same time, names, dates, and places, and will give me time to make the necessary inquiry into the correctness of those charges, he will find every inclination on my part to procure him satisfaction. If any officer, either in the Post-office or in any other public department of the Government over which I have control, shall have been guilty of such conduct as the hon. Baronet has mentioned, I can assure him that from me at least that officer shall receive no encouragement. At the same time I must tell the hon. Baronet, that it is not fair that these accusations should be made without notice, as under such circumstances neither the Government nor its officers have the means of entering on their defence.
Mr. Barnebyclaimed for a short time the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He had that morning received a letter from one of his constituents, stating that about fourteen days ago he transmitted the sum of 75l. to one of his correspondents in a letter through the Post-office, and that he had since discovered that both the money and the letter had been lost. His correspondent had also been informed that a friend of his at Dudley had lost 60l. in a similar manner. He had made communication of these circumstances to the authorities of the Post-office, and he believed that they were now undergoing inquiry there. The question which he had to ask was, whether it was the intention of Government to check as much as possible the transmission of money letters through the Post-office?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought it advisable that parties should not transmit large sums of money through the Post-office, as it was impossible to guarantee entire security for such sums in the large number of letters now delivered. Small sums, however, might be transmitted through the post in perfect safety by an order from one post-office upon another.
Mr. Goulburnsuggested that a branch office should be formed for the purpose of transmitting money letters and money orders, and that in this office a system of registration should be adopted. Such an office would be a great advantage to the public.
Mr. Barneby: Am I, then, to understand that it is not the intention of the Government to resume the system of registration of money letters which formerly prevailed?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer: There never was any system of registration for money letters. Letters supposed to contain sovereigns had been placed apart; but there never was a regular system of registration. Considering the multitude of letters which now pass through the Post-office, it was impossible, from the loss of time it would occasion, to establish a system of registration. Indeed, he had felt it to be his duty to advise the authorities of the Post-office to issue a caution against transmitting money letters through the Post-office.
Subject dropped.

PRIVILEGE—STOCKDALE v. HANSARD—MR. HOWARD.
The Sergeant-at Arms announced that Thomas Burton Howard was in custody.
The Speakerordered him to be brought to the bar.
Mr. Howardthen appeared at the bar in the custody of the sergeant-at-arms.
The Speaker—Thomas Burton Howard, the House has been informed that on the 24th of February a writ of summons was served on the Messrs. Hansard, commanding them to enter an appearance within eight days of the receipt of the writ in the Court of Queen's Bench, in an action at the suit of John Joseph Stock-dale. They were also informed that your name was endorsed on the writ. Are you the attorney in the action?
Mr. Howard—I am.
What is the cause of action?—A subsequent publication of a libel.
The Speaker—Was that libel contained in a report published by the authority of this House?—It was.
Did you receive instructions from Mr. Stockdale to commence that action against the Messrs. Hansard?—I did.
Mr. Hume—In what publication of this House was the libel contained?
Mr. Howard—It was a report of the inspectors of prisons.
The same as before?—The same as before.
Mr. Howard was ordered to withdraw.
The short-hand writer having read over his notes of the examination,
Lord J. Russellsaid, that the motion he had to make arose directly from the examination of Mr. Howard at the bar. The motion he had to propose to the House was to the following effect:—
"That Thomas Burton Howard, having served a writ of summons upon Messrs. Hansards, the printers of that House, for the purpose of causing them to appear to an action in the Court of Queen's Bench, which he had brought at the instance of John Joseph Stock-dale, against them for a libel which they had published in the papers printed for the House, had been guilty of a high contempt of the privileges of that House."
Mr. Humedid not wish to offer any objections to the motion of the noble Lord, but he begged to suggest whether it would not be proper to send for Mr. Stockdale, for the purpose of asking him whether he had given the instructions to Mr. Howard.
Sir R. Inglisdid not believe that a single instance existed of a prisoner being brought up to the bar for the purpose of convicting another person and himself too. He objected to t\ie motion of the noble Lord, looking at the course which the House had pursued, when the second action was brought, namely, that of instructing the Attorney-general to appear. He stated yesterday that he did not question the right of the House to summon Mr. Howard to the bar, because it would be impossible to carry on any private bill without the House had that power; but he did deny the right of the House to exercise the power of summoning parties to their bar for the purpose of inflicting punishment upon them. They were called on to take another step, from which the House could with propriety desist. He hoped, therefore, that the House would not further involve itself, and that Mr. Howard would be discharged.
Lord J. Russellmoved that the admonition of the Speaker to Mr. Howard, on the former occasion, be read; which was accordingly done by the clerk.
Sir E. Sugdenwould move as an amendment, that Mr. Howard be brought to the bar to-morrow. He did so for this rea-
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son, that the adjourned debate on the case of the sheriffs would come on to morrow, and the decision on their case might influence that of Mr. Howard.
The Attorney-Generalsaid, it was not for him at all to anticipate what might be the decision of the House on the case of the sheriffs. The House might think there were circumstances in their case which should mitigate their punishment. But the House was then considering what should be done with Mr. Howard. And when it was recollected that, after the admonition of the Speaker, which had just been read, and which had been ordered, nemine contradicente, to be entered on the journals, and after the professed regret of Mr. Howard for having incurred the displeasure of that House, Mr. Howard had instantly commenced another action; he trusted the House would not hesitate to commit him at once to Newgate. That seemed to him the only course open to them for the maintainance of their privileges.
Mr. Shawthought the course recommended by the Attorney-general was very severe, and he agreed with his hon. Friend that the matter had better stand over until to-morrow night, which he thought would be the more consistent course. He certainly thought the House possessed the power of publishing its proceedings, but he could not concur with the resolutions which decreed that every other court which presumed to decide on such questions was guilty of a breach of privilege. He thought the House was right in its original course of giving instruction to its servant to plead to the action, and he thought the further they departed from that course the greater would be the difficulties in which they would be involved. He would go as far as any one in maintaining the just privileges of the House, but he believed they would be best maintained by not stretching them beyond their just limits. He thought the proper course would have been, to have brought a writ of error, and then, if they had failed, which he was disposed to think they would not, they could have adopted the motion of his hon. Friend respecting legislation, which would not fail of its proper effect. If all other means had been tried and had failed, then he was ready to admit the present was the only course to be pursued. He entreated the noble Lord to let the result of the debate of the following day be as-

1317
certained before he proceeded in his motion.
Mr. Warburtonobserved, that the question was not whether the House was or was not to punish any individual for having committed a breach of its privileges, but whether Mr. Howard should be committed to Newgate for having been guilty of a high contempt towards that House. There could be no question that the House was the sole judge of its own privileges. This view of the subject was sanctioned by the proceedings of the Congress of the United States, and by the solemn decision of the Supreme Court of Judicature there, as would be found on reference to the 6th volume of Wheatson's Reports of Appeal Cases to the Supreme Courts. The Attorney-general of the United States had stated it to be his opinion, and the Supreme Court had upheld that opinion, that the Congress was the sole judge of its own privileges, and that these privileges did not admit of a contest in any other place. The opinion of the Attorney-general was, "that a legislative body was of necessity possessed of the power of committal, and that it was also possessed of the power of judging of its own privileges, and how far those privileges had been violated; and, also, that no other person could in any case presume to judge of them." This opinion, elicited in the case of Anderton against Dunn, was sufficient to prove, that the United States took an enlarged view of the privileges attached to Congress, and it also proved that there were not those fears entertained with respect to a democratic body amongst a republican people, which had been so broadly put forth in reference to the present case.
Mr. Goulburnobserved, that if the House of Commons could not stand upon its own authority, it could derive no asssistance from the Congress of the United States. For his part he was not of opinion that the amendment ought to be pressed, and for that reason he would vote with the noble Lord opposite. Mr. Howard had already been summoned to the bar of that House, and he had been warned that the course he had taken was opposed to the privileges of the House; nor did he think that because there was a discussion upon the same subject pending before the House, the present motion ought to be delayed for one hour. He should, therefore, vote for the proposal of the noble Lord.
The House divided on the original motion:—Ayes 147; Noes 45:—Majority 102.
Lord J Russellthen moved, that "Mr. T. B. Howard, having been guilty of a high contempt and breach of the privileges of the House, be, for the said offence, committed to her Majesty's gaol of Newgate; and that Mr. Speaker do issue his warrants accordingly."
Mr. Joneshoped that the sheriffs would continue to do their duty, and that in pursuance of the line they had adopted, they would let Mr. Howard out of Newgate as soon as he was sent there.
Mr. D'Israeliwanted to know why Mr. Howard was sent to Newgate, whilst Mr. Stockdale was merely confined within the precincts of the House?
Lord J. Russellreplied, that the reason for retaining Mr. Stockdale in the custody of the Sergeant was founded on the possibility that a writ of habeas corpus might be issued, which would render it necessary for the prisoner to be brought up before the proper authorities. This, in fact, had occurred, and it was deemed expedient that the officer of the House was more competent to retain the custody of the person under the orders of Mr. Speaker, than the other ordinary functionaries were. The case of habeas having been decided in favour of the power of the House, Mr. Howard might be sent to Newgate without any inconvenience; and, so far from desiring to establish any difference between Mr. Howard and his principal, Mr. Stock-dale, he was ready to move, on the next sitting of the House, "that Mr. Stockdale be committed, on the Speaker's warrant, to Newgate."
Sir E. Sugdenexpressed a wish that the proceedings, in the present case, had not been so distinctly marked by party feeling as they had been. He distinctly said party feeling—nor did he allude to the noble Lord opposite—but to the hon. Members on his side, who had cheered the noble Lord's announcement of his intention to commit Mr. Stockdale to Newgate. Let the punishment due to the offenders in this case be administered, but let not the House exult over the victims of its privileges. He hoped the subject would be renewed on the following day with becoming temper. In the mean time, he would offer a decided negative to the motion of the noble Lord.
The House again divided—Ayes 149; Noes 46:—Majority 103.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, Major

Hinde, J. H.

Alston, R.

Hobhouse, Sir J.'

Archbold, R.

Hobhouse, T. B.

Bainbridge, E. T.

Hodgson, R.

Baker, E.

Hope, hon. C.

Bannerman, A.

Horsman, E.

Baring, F. T.

Howard, F. J.

Barnard, E. G.

Howick, Lord Vis.

Beamish, F. B.

Hughes, W. B.

Benett, J.

Hume, J.

Berkeley, hon. H.

Hutt, F.

Bernal, R.

Irving, J.

Bewes, T.

Jenkins, Sir R.

Blair, J.

Labouchere, H.

Blennerhassett, A.

Lambton, H.

Bodkin, J.

Langdale, hon. C.

Boiling, W.

Lascelles, W. S.

Bowes, J.

Loch, J.

Broadwood, H.

Lockhart, A. M.

Brodie, W. B.

Lowther, J. H.

Brotherton, J.

Lushington, C.

Busfeild, W.

Macaulay, T. B.

Campbell, Sir J.

Mackenzie, W. F.

Cantilupe, Lord

Macleod, R.

Chapman, Sir M.

Maule,hon. F.

Chichester, J. P. B.

Milnes, R. M.

Clay, W.

Morpeth, Lord

Clerk, Sir G.

Morris, D.

Colquhoun, J. C.

Muntz, G. F.

Compton, H. C.

Murray, A.

Currie, R.

Nagle, Sir R.

Dalmeny, Lord

Noel, hon. C. G.

Dennistoun, J.

Norreys, Sir D.

Divett, E.

O'Brien, C.

Douglas, Sir C. E.

O'Brien, W. S.

Duff, J. O

Callaghan, C.

Dundas, F.

O'Connell, D.

Du Pré, G.

O'Connell, M. J.

Elliot,hon. J. E.

O'Conor Don

Ellice, E.

Oswald, J.

Evans, Sir De L.

Palmerston, Lord

Evans, W.

Parker, J.

Fielden, W.

Patten, J. W.

Fenton, J.

Pattison, J.

Finch, F.

Peel, Sir R.

Fitzalan, Lord

Pigot, D. R.

Fleetwood, Sir P.

Planta, J.

Fremantle, Sir T.

Power, J.

French, F.

Protheroe, E.

Gillon, W. D.

Redington, T. N.

Gordon, R.

Reid, Sir J.R.

Gore, O. J.R.

Roche, W.

Goulburn, H.

Russell, Lord J.

Graham, Sir J.

Rutherford, A.

Greig, D.

Salwey, Colonel

Grey, Sir C.

Sanford, E. A.

Grey, rt. hon. Sir G.

Seale, Sir J. H.

Harcourt, G. G.

Seymour, Lord

Hardinge, Sir H.

Sheppard, T.

Hastie, A.

Smith, G. R.

Hawes, B.

Smith, R. V.

Heathcote, J.

Somers, J. P.

Hill, Lord A. M. C.

Somerville, Sir W. M.

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Stansfield, W. R.

Wallace, R.

Staunton, Sir G.

Warburton, H.

Stuart, Lord J.

Ward, H. G.

Stuart, W. P.

White, A.

Stock, Dr

Wilde, Sergeant

Strickland, Sir G.

Williams, W.

Surrey, Earl of

Winnington, Sir T. E.

Tufnell, H.

Winnington, H. J.

Vigors, N. A.

Wood, C.

Vivian, J. H.

Young, J.

Vivian, Sir R. H.

TELLERS.

Walker, R.

Stanley, E. J.

Wall, C. B.

Steuart, R.

List of the NOES.

Alsager, Captain

Lygon, Gen.

Barneby, J.

Mahon, Lord

Boldero, H. G.

Norreys, Lord

Broadley, H.

Packe, C. W.

Bruges, W. H. L.

Pakington, J. S.

Conolly, E.

Pigot, R.

Darby, G.

Polhill, F.

Dowdeswell, W.

Praed, W. T.

Duncombe, T.

Richards, R.

Duncombe, W.

Rolleston, L.

Duncombe, A.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Eaton, R. J.

Shaw, F.

Eliot, Lord

Shirley, E. J.

Filmer, Sir E.

Sturt, H. C.

Fitzroy, H.

Sugden, Sir E.

Gladstone, W. E.

Tennent, J. E.

Halford, H.

Tyrrell, Sir J. T.

Hamilton, Lord C.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hogg, J. W.

Walsh, Sir J.

Hope, G. W.

Williams, R.

Inglis Sir R. H.

Wood, Col. T.

Jackson, Serg.

Jones, J.

TELLERS.

Lincoln, Earl of

Kelly, F.

Litton, E.

D'Israeli, B.

Speaker to issue his warrant for the committal of Mr. Howard to Newgate.
The first division was composed so almost exclusively of the same persons as the second, that it is unnecessary to repeat the names on the first division.

STAGE COACHES—(IRELAND).
Mr. E. Tennentmoved for leave to bring in a bill to regulate the stage coaches running in Ireland.
Viscount Morpethintimated that the Government had no objection to this measure, and had intended to bring in a bill on the same subject.
Mr. Humeobserved, that the hon. Member opposite had not offered a syllable in explanation on behalf of his bill. The Secretary to the Irish Government had expressed his readiness to bring in a bill on the same subject, and why should not the measure of the hon. Member be handed over to the noble Lord, in order that the

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matter should receive due attention? He decidedly objected to the proceeding.
Sir R. Peelsaid, that the subject was a very complicated one, but he saw no reason why his hon. Friend should not have leave to introduce his bill. The pre. sent was the third occasion in which the Ministers had, by their own avowals, been anticipated in their own measures, and he would only express a hope that his hon. Friend would continue in the same course.
Leave given.

THANKS TO THE INDIAN ARMY.
Sir John Hobhousethen rose and said: In pursuance of the notice which I placed on the Table of this House on a very early day of the present Session, I rise to move a vote of thanks to the Governor-General of India, and the officers and men of the army of the Indus, for themilitary operations which have recently taken place to the westward of the Indus. In doing this I only follow the practice which has uniformly prevailed, almost ever since the very commencement of the British empire in India—from the moment that the thanks of this House were reluctantly wrung from those who doubted the expediency of the great exploits performed by Lord Clive, in the foundation of our empire in India, almost up to the present day. Lord Cornwallis in the year 1792; the Marquess Wellesley in the year 1799, and again in the year 1804; Lord Minto in the year 1812, and the Marquess of Hastings in the years 1817 and 1819, received, as Governors-general of India, the thanks of this House. On two of the occasions—and those the best known—which I have just now mentioned, the thanks of Parliament were confined to the military arrangements and operations; and the policy and origin of the wars were studiously kept out of view by those who, being placed in the position which I now fill, proposed those thanks. Such was the case in 1804, when Lord Castlereagh proposed a vote of thanks to the Marquess Wellesley; and such also was the course adopted when Mr. Canning proposed a vote of thanks to the Marquess of Hastings. I take the liberty of following these examples, and in what I am about to address to the House, I shall expressly keep out of view the policy, the cause, and the origin of the war; and I shall confine myself to the military operations and arrangements made by the Governor-General, and carried into effect by the army of the Indus. I hold this to be the expe-
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dient course to pursue, for the policy was our own—it was that of the Government, and we are responsible for it; and if that policy is questioned it is for us to defend it, and we are prepared to do so; and it would be unfair to the brave men to whom I have just alluded, to mix up any explanation or defence of the policy of our proceedings, with a statement of their exploits. Her Majesty, immediately on receiving intelligence of the late successes of the army of the Indus, and of the fall of Ghuznee, and of the entrance of the army into Cabool, honoured me with her gracious commands, to convey her cordial approbation to the Governor-General, to Lord Keane, and to the officers and soldiers under his command, and many honours have been conferred on those who were engaged in these brilliant exploits. It was with great satisfaction also, that I saw those who were well able to appreciate the merits of this enterprise— namely, the Court of Directors and the Court of Proprietors of the East India Company, render their thanks to Lord Auckland, to Sir John Keane, and the army under his command. The other House also has passed votes of thanks to those engaged in these achievements, and it now only remains for this branch of the legislature to do its duty in this respect, and to acknowledge the merits of those, by whom they have been planned and performed. I trust, however, before I propose those votes, that I shall be pardoned if I very briefly—indeed, as briefly as the nature of the subject will admit of—describe the progress of the troops in their arduous undertaking. For the reasons which I have mentioned, when I promised the House that I would not enter into any statement with respect to the policy of these transactions, I shall merely state, that on the 10th of September, 1838, Lord Auckland proclaimed in general orders his intention to employ a force beyond the north-west frontier of India; and on the 1st of October his Lordship published his declaration of the causes and objects of the war. Early in November the Bengal troops marched from Kurnaul to Ferozepore on the Sutledge; and Shah Soojah, at the head of his levies, left Loodhiana, and joined the British array. About the same time that these forces were concentrated at Ferozepore, the Bombay troops, under the command of Sir John Keane, embarked from Bombay, and landed at Vikkur, near the mouth of the Indus, on the 30th November. In the beginning of December the forces under Shah Soojah march, ed from Ferozepore, and were followed by

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the Bengal division, under Sir Willoughby Cotton, on the 10th of December. These divisions moved in a southerly direction towards the left bank of the Indus, whilst, on the 22d of December, the Bombay army advanced northwards on the right bank of that river. The Shah arrived on the Indus and crossed it on the 17th of January, and Sir Willoughby Cotton came in sight of it about a week afterwards, but he did not cross it, for he was obliged to move the principal part of his force towards Hyderabad, the Ameers of Lower Sinde having manifested strong dispositions to obstruct the progress of the armies. Sir John Keane also advanced towards Hyderabad, and a reserve force was ordered from Bombay to occupy the stations in the rear of our advancing columns. That reserve landed at Kurrachee, after a short resistance, on the 3d of February. The Ameers of Sinde submitted, and Sir Willoughby Cotton marched his columns back towards Bukkur, at which place he arrived and crossed the river on the 14th of February. The passage of the Indus by the British army is one of those notable events that I think it right to dwell upon for a short time. I hold in my hand various statement respecting this operation, by the gallant general who commanded the forces, and by Sir Willoughby Cotton and other distinguished officers who were on the spot, and saw the proceedings. They all describe in warm terms the skill and science displayed by the engineer department, and enlarge on the bridge constructed under the superintendence of that distinguished officer Captain Thomson. At the spot where this bridge was constructed, the river Indus is divided into two channels, between which are situated the island and fort of Bukkur. The river at this spot is 700 yards in breadth, and the channel in many places is about four fathoms in depth. The passage over one of the channels is 490 yards in breadth, and the whole of the army, with the enormous train accompanying it, passed over with perfect safety. Such was the success of this undertaking, that it called forth the general admiration of all who saw it, and it reflected the highest credit on the engineers who effected it. Although the army that passed over the Indus was numerically less than many of those large bodies of troops which were employed in military enterprises during the last war, still it formed a very numerous body. It is true, that the number of troops was only about 8,000, but there was a very numerous
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train accompanying it, for, besides horses, there were not less than 16,000 camels with it, and this great body passed over the bridges, without the loss of a single person—not one man was lost, and not a single casualty occurred during the passage of the river. I hope the House will excuse me for reading a graphic account of this operation, the accuracy of which is fully confirmed by all the accounts that I have seen.
"The bridge which had been constructed by Captains Thomson and Sanders, of the Bengal Engineers, was ready. It is described as a structure which does infinite credit to those distinguished officers, and whether we consider the difficulties they had to overcome, or the solidity of the bridge, it will justly entitle them to the consideration of the Court of Directors. Sir Henry Fane is reported to have said, that he had seen no such structure erected in so brief a period during the whole of his Peninsular campaign. The Bengal troops crossed the Indus upon it without a single casualty. It was a gallant sight to see brigade after brigade, with its martial music and its glittering arms, marching over file by file, horse, foot, and artillery, into a region as yet untrodden by British soldiers. The native soldiery are said to have been loud in their admiration of the arrangements which had been made for crossing the boundary of Hindostan, and to have gained additional confidence in the enterprise in which they were engaged."
From good authority I am able to state, that this is not an exaggerated account of the matter. The proceedings of the expedition were greatly assisted at this point by the judicious arrangements of one of the most able and intelligent officers that ever served in the Indian or any other army. I mean Sir Alexander Burnes. That gallant officer had negociated with the Ameer of Khyrpoor, and not only induced that prince to allow our forces to enter the fort of Bukkur, but also permit it to be garrisoned and kept by a portion of the reserve force of the British army. After the passage of the river Indus by the Bengal column, the Bombay troops advanced from the south, and took up the position which was formerly occupied by the Bengal troops. I have before stated, that the Bengal army was preceded by a small body of troops, amounting in all to about 6,000 men, under the command of the Shah Shooja-ool-Moolk. The Bengal column followed at the interval of a few days' inarch, and the Bombay column followed the latter about a fortnight afterwards. These three little armies, for so they might properly be called, for the whole strength of troops employed in this expedition did not

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exceed 21,000 men, marched into an almost unknown and untrodden country, but neglecting no means of ensuring success, and providing for a safe retreat in case of a reverse. The columns had to pass through the Bolan and other passes, where a small and determined body of men might have stopped the progress of a much larger army than that which formed this expedition. The first force, under the Shah Shooja-ool-Moolk, did not lose a single man in the passage through these formidable passes; the second column, composed of the Bengal troops, also did not lose a single man; but the third column, composed of the Bombay army, was not so fortunate, for in their passage through the Bolan pass,* some plunderers broke in on them, and made as attack on the British troops, which was attended with some loss—but this disaster might have happened under any circumstances, in a country like that which the troops had to traverse; and those plunderers, morever, were completely defeated and driven back. It took the army some time to advance through these mountains, and it was not until the second week in April, that the Bombay division of the army of the Indus had passed through them. On the 24th of April, the Shah entered Candahar, and that capital was taken possession of by the British troops on the 26th. The whole of the troops were concentrated at Candahar, on the 4th of May; and in consequence of the admirable discipline displayed in their advance and up to this period of the campaign, Sir John Keane thought it necessary to issue a general order, a copy of which I hold in my hand, commending them for their discipline, and for the courage which they had displayed. The army remained until the second week
* The Bolan pass to Sir-i-Khujoor is comparatively open, though commanded on each side by the mountains. At Sir-i-Khujoor, it narrows, and for ten miles runs in sharp angles, from 150 to 200 yards in length. Towards its termination, there is not more than sufficient breadth for a dozen horsemen between the rocks, which rise like walls to a great height on either side. The road is formed of loose pebbly stones and sand, like the beach of the sea. "The minutest description," Captain Conolly observes, "could hardly convey a just idea of its strength: it is a defile which a regiment of brave men could defend against an army." Sir Alexander Burnes remarks that the pass runs through the country of the Beahavees, who are masters of the fate of any army attempting to traverse it. In the rainy season, he states, it forms the channel of a mountain torrent, and is impracticable.
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in June at Candahar, and its vicinity, and then prepared for the march to Cabool. But in the meantime the troops were not altogether idle, for a force under the command of Brigadier Sale, was detached against Gerishk, a place of great strength and importance, occupied by the Sirdars of Candahar. This place was invested and carried, and garrisoned by British troops. The army then proceeded on its march to Cabool, and in the course of it the troops were exposed to great difficulties, and had to undergo many privations; but they at length, on the 21st of July, arrived before that fortress, so celebrated in ancient Asi. atic history, as the place whence former conquerors issued for the subjection of Hindostan, and now more celebrated for the brilliant triumph afforded to the British army—I mean the fort of Ghuznee. I am sure that hon. Gentlemen must be aware that this place was the cradle of one of the great Mahomedan monarchies, the founder of which overran India, and the exploits of Mahmoud. the Ghazne-side, must be familiar to the readers of Gibbon. This fortress, formidable from its natural situation, and still more so from the labour bestowed on it, was regarded by the natives as almost impregnable. One monarch attacked it with an immense force, and it was upwards of two years before he could gain possession of it. Nadir Shah was ten months besieging it before he reduced it, and Ahmed Shah the grandfather of the present Shah Shooja-ool-Moolk passed by it without venturing on a siege. This fortress, which made such resistance to former armies, was taken in two hours and a half. Such was the irresistible intrepidity of our troops. The House is aware of the gallantry displayed on this occasion by our army—of the promptitude and skill manifested by the General commanding, Sir John Keane, and of the comparatively small loss which attended this capture. I need hardly dwell on the success that attended this brilliant achievement, for it seems to have had the effect of at once breaking the power of Dost Mahomed Khan, the ruler against whom the expedition was directed, and who had fixed all his hopes on the strength of this fortress He had placed in it a garrison of 3,500 soldiers under the command of his son, Mahomed Hyder, with abundance of ammunition, and provisions. He had also got together a well-appointed force of about 13,000 men, under his eldest son, which he intended should afford aid for the relief of the place in case of ne-

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cessity, and which was encamped at a few miles distant. In the fortress itself he had deposited a portion of his treasure, and he evidently felt convinced that the possession of this strong place would save him; and such might have been the result of a failure on our part, at least for a time. But immediately on the news of the fall of Ghuznee, he was deserted by the greater portion of his partisans, and was obliged to fly precipitately, with comparatively few followers, whilst the troops, at the head of which he had so lately been, hastened to offer their allegiance to his rival. The army then advanced upon Cabool, and Shah Shooja-ool-Moolk entered his long lost capital without resistance, on the seventh of August. But, besides the combinations and movements which I have described, the Governor-general deemed it advisable that an auxiliary force should advance by another route, and thus afford a diversion, and distract the attention of the enemy. This was effected by sending a body of troops from Peshawar, under the command of Colonel Wade, who was accompanied by the Shazadah Timour, the eldest son of Shah Shooja. The force was comparatively small, but it accomplished its object, took the fortress of Ali Musjid, and opened the celebrated Khyber Pass, which had never before been forced. This operation drove Mahomed Ukbar-Khan, a son of Dost Mahomed, from Jelalabad, and facilitated the advance of Colonel Wade from the eastward of Cabool to join the main army in that capital. Thus this portion of the expedition was as successful as the other divisions, and afforded important aid to the general success. But in order to show that the Governor-general and Sir John Keane, who acted under the orders of the Governor-general, had made every arrangement that the army should not be without support in the case of any reverse, I will mention the different stations in which, as the army advanced, garrisons were left. The line of the Indus was secured—one regiment was left at Kurrachee—two regiments at Tatta—at Bukkur and Shikapore, from three to four regiments—at Dadur, half a regiment—at Quetta, a brigade and a large magazine—at Gerishk, a regiment, and from two to three regiments of infantry, with cavalry and artillery, were kept at Candahar, while the remainder of the army advanced into Cabool. Thus, if any great disaster had befallen the army in defiling through the Bolan Pass, or any other of the difficult positions through which it had to pass, it would have been
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able to fall back on the reserves, at any of these forts. But not only provision was made by reserves of troops, but large supplies of grain and other provisions were deposited at various stations. A great number of camels were also provided to accompany the army for the conveyance of tents, utensils, and provisions, &c, and amounted at one time to not less than 27,000. I may also mention in this place, that at one period of the advance one division of the army was accompanied with not less than 30,000 camp followers. The army marched through this country almost by chart and compass, for the districts it passed through had been visited by few, except in ancient days, and were very little known. I will mention very shortly, in order to give Gentlemen some notion of the distance that was traversed by our armies, the extent of the march of each division before reaching the end of their career. The Bengal column, from the time that it left Ferozepore to its arrival at Cabool, marched not less than 1,350 miles; the Bombay column marched upwards of 1,000 miles; while the detachment—for I can hardly call it a column—. under Colonel Wade, marched 680 miles, and in about nine months, all these forces in the early part of September were collected in the neighbourhood of Cabool. In order to secure the success of this expedition, we have the declaration in another place of the greatest military authority in the world, we have, I say, the authority of the Duke of Wellington, for asserting, that never was more adequate provision made for all the contingencies which could have occurred, and I will now shortly detail what the Governor-general did to support this great military movement, and to preserve our Indian possessions against attacks from other quarters. In the course of twelve months the army, European and native, was augmented to the amount of 50,000 of all arms. In order, also, to provide for the troops which had been detached from the Bengal and Bombay presidencies to form the army of the Indus, Lord Auckland ordered a number of regiments from Madras to be detached as follows. To Bombay, he ordered seven regiments of native infantry, one regiment of the Queen's troops, one regiment of native cavalry, one company of sappers and miners, one troop of horse artillery, together with some foot artillery. He also directed, that they should detach from Madras to Bengal four regiments of native infantry, and a brigade of guns. And. not only did he

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make this provision for the expedition to the westward of the Indus, but he also provided against dangers which appeared to threaten the east of India, and ordered an additional force to be sent from Madras to Moulmein, of the Queen's 62nd regiment and a regiment of native troops. At the same time a force was collected along the Nepalese frontier, and we were thus prepared against external aggression at all parts of the Indian empire. But the attention of Lord Auckland was directed equally to those Mahratta chieftains and Rajpoot princes who had given signs of disaffection, and a body of troops was ordered to march against Maun Singh, of Joudpoor. It fortunately happened, that this individual was not hostilely disposed, but still he occupied some attention and was the cause of anxiety, and I mention this to show the claims of the Governor-general to the approbation of the House for the preparations he had made, under circumstances of no little embarrassment. It is not for me now to give an opinion of the policy of the Governor-general, but I think that I have stated sufficient to justify me in calling upon the House to come to an unanimous vote of thanks to him for the part which he took in those military arrangements. I do so, then, with confidence, and I shall pass to another resolution, about which I can have no doubt, namely, the thanks of this House to the General Commanding, and to the brave officers and soldiers who formed the army of the Indus. I am sure hon. Gentlemen have read what has been said of these soldiers by some of our fellow-countrymen of the highest authority on military subjects. I just now alluded to the great man whose opinion I quoted; and who may personally know many of the officers engaged in those operations, and is, I believe, intimately acquainted with the general who carried them into effect. Such testimony renders superfluous all comment from me, and I hope that the House will not think that I am deviating from the reservation that I made, of not alluding to the policy of these proceedings, if I refer to the results of the expedition. That result has been of such importance, as those unacquainted with Indian affairs can scarcely comprehend. In Europe the effect has been very great, and almost unexampled, for victory achieved at such distance and under such circumstances. In India it has, for the present at least, tranquillized the whole of that immense territory. It has put a stop to the intrigues
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of many who had been long watching for opportunities to disturb the peace of the empire. It has arrested the proceedings,—the cause of much anxiety—of the sovereign of Nepaul. It has calmed, for the present at least, the angry usurper of Ava.—The success has been as signal as it has been complete.—I shall not attempt to awaken schoolboy recollections of these famous scenes connected with the most romantic of all the exploits of the most marvellous of ancient conquerors—but I may perhaps be pardoned for reminding those who are familiar with the historian that has preserved the Journal of Nearchus, that the very stations on which the British flag is now flying, were the resting places of the great Alexander, and that, since his days, the standard of no civilized nation has been seen on the banks of the Indus. We may be allowed to dwell on this bold and brilliant achievement—and most pleasing is it, instead of the conflicts of party and struggles for political power, to he enabled to direct our attention to subjects of national interest, and to unite in doing justice to those who have upheld the honour and renown of the British empire and the British army. It has long been the proud distinction of our nation—a distinction which can only belong to a free people—to share with the Sovereign the satisfaction of showing gratitude to those who have deserved well of their country—and I feel sure, that, on this occasion, we shall appreciate the triumphs and the toils of the brave men now brought to our notice. On this occasion it is most satisfactory to me to find the warmest support from those who in politics are opposed to the party to which I belong, and to the party to which, I may say, the Governor-general of India belongs; and on this part of the subject I trust the House will excuse me for reading a short extract from a periodical publication, opposed on every other point but this to the Government:—
"In a military point of view, the expedition to Affghanistan is one of the most memorable events of modern times. For the first time since the days of Alexander the Great, a civilized army has penetrated the mighty barrier of deserts and mountains which separates Persia from Hindostan; and the prodigy has been exhibited to an astonished world of a remote island in the European seas pushing forward its mighty arms into the heart of Asia, and carrying its victorious standards into the strong, holds of Mahomedan faith and the cradle of the Mogul Empire. Neither the intricate streams of the Punjab, nor the rapid flow of the

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Indus, nor the waterless mountains of Affghan-istan, nor the far-famed bastions of Ghuznee, have been able to arrest our course. For the first time in the history of the world the tide of conquest has flown up from Hindostan into Central Asia; the European race has asserted its wonted superiority over the Asiatic; reversing the march of Timour and Alexander, the sable battalions of the Ganges have appeared as conquerors on the frontiers of Persia, and on the confines of the steppes of Samarcand. So marvellous and unprecedented an event is indeed fitted to awaken the contemplation of every thoughtful mind. It speaks volumes as to the mighty step made by the human race in the last five hundred years, and indicates the vast agency and unbounded effects of that free spirit, of which Britain is the centre, which has thus, for a season at least, inverted the heretofore order of nature, made the natives of Hindostan appear as victors in the country of Gengis Khan, and brought the standards of civilized Europe, though in the inverse order, into the footsteps of the phalanx of Alexander."
With this animated and not much exaggerated eulogium on our recent triumphs, I conclude what I have ventured to address to the House, and propose—
"1. That the thanks of this House be given to the right hon. George Earl of Auckland, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath, Governor-general of the British Possessions in the East Indies, for the judgment and ability with which the resources of the British Empire in India have been recently applied, under his direction, in aid of the military operations to the westward of the Indus.
"2. That the thanks of this House be given to Lieut-general Lord Keane, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Military Order of the Bath, for his meritorious conduct in the command of the forces employed to the westward of the Indus; and more particularly for the energy and promptitude with which he planned and directed the assault of the city and fortress of Ghuznee, the success of which brilliant achievement highly contributed to the honour of the British army, and to the rapid accomplishment of the enterprise in which they were engaged.
"3. That the thanks of this House be given to Major-general Sir Willoughby Cotton, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Honourable Military Order of the Bath, and to the several officers of the army, both European and Native, for their good conduct and gallant exertions during the late operations to the westward of the Indus.
"4. That this House doth highly approve and acknowledge the discipline and patient perseverance displayed by the non-commissioned officers and private soldiers, both European and Native, during a long and painful march through an untried country; and doth also
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highly approve and acknowledge their undaunted courage at the assault and capture of Ghuznee.
"5. That this resolution be signified to them by the commanders of the several corps.
"6. That the said resolutions be transmitted by the Speaker to the Governor-general of India; and that his Lordship be requested to communicate the same to the several officers referred to therein."
Sir R. Peelcould not deny himself the satisfaction of confirming the truth of the statement, that no difference of political opinion could for a moment induce any political party to withhold the expression of their satisfaction at the success of the British army, and their admiration of the valour and perseverance of those by whom that success had been achieved. He considered it a subject of the highest congratulation to the House and to the country, that now, after an interval of peace of not fewer than twenty-five years, after our armies had been so long without any actual experience in the field, he considered it highly gratifying that our soldiers had shown themselves so worthy of their predecessors in arms, and so fitted to support the military reputation of their country. Whether it was twenty-eight men, or twenty-one thousand, that were engaged, the martial spirit of the British troops was still the same as it was on the eve of the Battle of Waterloo. The troops had not only displayed the greatest personal valour, but there appeared to have been an exhibition of patience, of fortitude, of perseverance under difficulties, which, at least, equally with their personal valour, merited the warmest thanks of the House. It might appear presumptuous in him, an unprofessional man, to add his voice to the tribute of admiration which had been expressed by military authorities, but still, even to military men, the declaration of a civilian that as far as he could judge, the military had performed their duty in the noblest and ablest manner, could not be altogether unwelcome. So far, then, as the conduct of the army was concerned, he could concur in the vote of thanks to the fullest extent. Upon the policy out of which the expedition, upon the state of the finances affected by it, and upon the results, he conceived himself, and, indeed, he was fully justified by the right hon. Gentleman, in reserving his opinion. When the right hon. Gentleman told the House that an army of 8,000 men upon its march was

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accompanied by 16,000 camp followers; when he told the House, that 27,000 camels were necessary for the baggage attached to that army, and that the full military force was accompanied by a body of 30,000 followers, he should like to see the bill of this march, before he pronounced an opinion upon the advantages to be derived. He had not expected from the notice of the right hon. Gentleman, that the vote was to include the thanks to the Governor-general, and in sanctioning that vote, he must distinctly declare that he limited the expression of his gratitude to the services immediately connected with the military operations, and it would be uncandid in him not to say that he had doubts as to the policy of including civil officers, whatever their merits, in the expression of a gratitude which had reference to military operations alone. These were doubts which were shared by very high authorities. It was quite true, that the thanks of the House were given to Lord Wellesley for the share he had in the military operations in India, when he was Governor-general there; but Lord Wellesley acted as Captain-general of the forces, and placed himself at the head of the expedition. Upon another occasion, when thanks were voted to Lord Wellesley, Mr. Fox remarked that he considered it a new principle to propose a vote of thanks for military successes to any but those who had been actively engaged, and indeed, Mr. Fox went so far as to say that he did not think Lord Wellesley would be very much gratified at the expression of admiration, but, on the contrary, would laugh when he read that the House of Commons had recorded their gratitude for the share he had taken in the military operations. In making these remarks he begged it to be understood that he did not at all undervalue the ability which Lord Auckland had displayed in forming the arrangements. All he wished to express was his doubt of the policy of including civil officers in a vote of thanks for military operations. In the case of Lord Amherst, who made all the preparations for the invasion of Burmah, although every praise was conceded to his prudence and foresight, his name was not included in any vote of thanks. Yet the reward which that noble Lord had received, in being created an Earl, left no doubt as to the approbation which his services had met with at the hands of his Sovereign find his country. The services of Lord
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Wellesley stood on special and peculiar grounds. Being most anxious, however, that nothing of a disagreeable nature, or appearing like opposition, should appear on this occasion, he would not object to including Lord Auckland in the vote of thanks, but he had thought it his duty to state his doubts upon the principle of the matter. His judgment on the general question of policy he would repeat, he would take leave to reserve. So far as the military operations were concerned, there never was an occasion on which the thanks of a British Parliament to a British army were more amply deserved.
Mr. Mucaulaycould not refrain from expressing his high gratification at the unanimity of the House on this very interesting occasion, and at the manner especially in which the right hon. Baronet had expressed himself in reference to the conduct of the British in India. It was not his intention to enter into any of the political questions which might be considered in connection with this expedition, but he wished to make a remark upon what had fallen from the right hon, Baronet in reference to Lord Auckland. The right hon. Gentleman had omitted all mention of a case of the highest importance—the case of Lord Minto—to whom, after the reduction of Java, the thanks of the House were awarded for the part which he had taken in superintending the military arrangements; nor was the right hon. Baronet correct in supposing that Lord Wellesley had only received the thanks of Parliament as Captain-general, since he also received the thanks of the House in connection with the taking of Seringapatam, when he did not act as Captain-general. He quite conceded to the right hon. Baronet the right, and he fully admitted the propriety, of reserving his opinion as to the general policy under which the expedition took place, till the results were known; but his own conviction was, that this great event would be found, in its results, highly conducive to the prosperous state of our finances in India, and that, as a measure of economy, it would be found not less deserving of praise than it confessedly was in a military point of view. He could hear witness to some of the circumstances to which his right hon. Friend had alluded. Among many peculiarities of our Indian empire there was no one more remarkable than this—that the people whom we governed there were a people whose estimate of our power sometimes far exceeded the truth, and sometimes fell far short of it.

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They knew nothing of our resources; they | were ignorant of our geographical position; they knew nothing of the political condition or of the relative power of any of the European states. They saw us come and go, but it was upon an element with which they were not acquainted, and which they held in horror. It was no exaggeration to state that not merely the common people, but the upper classes—nay, even the ministers of the native provinces—were, almost without exception, so profoundly ignorant of European affairs that they could not tell whether the King of the French or the Duke of Modena was the greatest potentate. Further, lie could tell the House this—when he was in India there was a restless, unquiet feeling existing in the minds of our subjects, neighbours, and subsidiary allies—a disposition to look forward to some great change, to some approaching revolution; to think that the power of England was no longer what it had been proved to he in former times. There was a disposition to war on the part of Ava and other states; on every side, in short, there had prevailed a feeling in the public mind in India, which, unchecked, might have led the way to great calamities; but this great event, this great triumph at Ghuznee, acted so signally by the British troops, had put down, with a rapidity hardly ever known in history, this restless aud uneasy feeling; and there never was a period at which the opinion of our valour and skill, and what was of equal importance, the confidence in our "star" was higher than it now was in India. He believed that the right hon. Baronet opposite would find reason to think that all the expense incurred by these thousands of camels and thousands of troops was sound and profitable economy. He had seen something of the brave men who defended our Indian empire, and it had been matter of great delight to him to see the warm attachment to their country and their countrymen which animated them in that distant land, and which added a ten-fold force to the zeal and vigour with which they performed their arduous duties. While he was on this point, let him remark that there was a disposition in that gallant service to imagine that they were not sufficiently appreciated at home to think that the Indian service was not so highly considered in England as other services not less able, nor performed with less jeopardy, in other countries. It was extraordinary to see the interest, with what gratification, the smallest scrap, the merest line, in an English newspaper, conveying any praise en
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this service was received by them, and their delight would be extreme when they came to read the vote of thanks which had been conferred on them unanimously by the House of Lords, and which he trusted would be passed as unanimously by the House of Commons, the more especially accompanied as it was by the testimony to their merits borne by the greatest general that England ever produced. At the same time that this well-merited tribute conferred the highest pleasure on the brave men who shared in the expedition, it would serve as a powerful inducement to every other man in that gallant service to expose himself to every peril and every privation when the interests of the empire required it.
Sir R. Jenkinssaid, that as Chairman of the East India Company, he could not give a silent vote on this occasion, though, after the speeches of the right hon. Gentlemen who had preceded him, there remained very little for him to say. Considering the difficulties under which the expedition was undertaken, there was hardly any person who had not felt very great anxiety as to the result; but every step which the troops made in their progress tended to remove this anxiety, and it was soon felt, that the zeal, and bravery and steady perseverance of the British army, would bring the campaign to a triumphant issue; the whole course of their successes appeared to have been exempt from the usual vicissitudes of war. Mighty armies fled before a mere handful of men; fortresses deemed impregnable had fallen as if by magic, before the skill of our officers and the bravery of our soldiers; victory had followed our standard were defeat was confidently anticipated. The army of India had few opportunities of meeting the enemy in the field, but they had to perform one of the most extraordinary actions in military history; an action more brilliant, more seasonable, more decisive than the capture of Ghuznee had rarely been accomplished. Our Indian service had always looked to the approbation of Parliament and of the country, as its highest reward, and never had a service more entitled itself to such thanks. Never had there been a military exploit of so complicated a nature, and carried to such a distance from the base of its resources, which had so completely answered to the conception on which it was founded; and never had there been a military exploit in which every individual

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concerned in it, from the Governor-general down to the soldier and sepoy in the ranks, had more richly merited the gratitude of Parliament.
Sir H. Hardingecould not refrain from expressing the high approbation which he entertained at the conduct of the Indian army, commanded by a gallant, and now noble, Friend of his. Even before the advance on Ghuznee—even before they had accomplished that brilliant exploit— the conduct of the army had been meritorious in the most eminent degree. The privations and labour it had undergone were of the most trying description. Nor was the merit of endurance under severe privation, and admirable conduct and subordination due only to the British soldiers in this army. In these great military virtues, the British soldiers had been nobly emulated by the Sepoys, whose conduct in every respct and throughout the expedition had been such as to advance them greatly in the estimation of the officers. The capture of Ghuznee was effected by a rare combination of science and skill; science and skill which were doubly worthy of praise, inasmuch as they had saved the effusion of blood to a very considerable extent. The walls were too high to escalade; the ditch too deep to be forded; the artillery not able to batter a breach; but all these great obstacles were overcome by the scientific attainments of Captain, now most deservedly Major, Thompson, who by a plan, most simple in its nature, that of throwing bags of gunpowder against the only practicable entrance, the Cabool gate, opened a way for the admission of the British troops. In blowing open that gate, but one death occurred, and the whole operation only cost us the lives of 200 men. With respect to the plan adopted by Major Thompson, without in the least detracting from the merit of that gallant officer in its admirable and most effective application, he (Sir H. Hardinge) could not help pointing out that the invention of this plan was due to Colonel Pasley, of the engineers, com-mandmant at Chatham, to whom the Ordnance department, and the public in general, were so much indebted. Of this gallant officer, Major Thompson had been a worthy pupil, and had known how to apply the invention to the readiest and most effectual account. The right lion, and gallant Member concluded by expressing his hope that the late triumphs of the British arms would have a salutary
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effect upon our subjects and tributaries in India.
Sir H. Viviansaid, that his long and intimate friendship and near connection with his noble and gallant Friend under whose orders the army had acted would not allow him to give a silent vote. The right hon. Baronet opposite hesitated whether to include the noble Lord at the head of the Government of India in the vote of thanks, but it should be remembered, that it was by Lord Auckland that all the arrangements of this expedition were prepared, and in another place the highest approbation of those arrangments had been expressed by that great man who had so often led our armies to victory, and who had distinguished himself as a soldier beyond all other men. He could not but think Lord Auckland fully entitled to the thanks of Parliament. With regard to the noble and gallant Lord who had led forth our army in India to triumph, he had been in constant communication with that noble and gallant Lord, and, in his various communications, had learnt the many and great difficulties with which he had had to contend, and he could not express to the House in stronger terms what these difficulties had been, than by reading an extract he had received from Lord Keane, dated Candahar, June 26th. It was as follows:—
"When that which had been required for us in the Scinde was concluded, I was desired to push forward in command of the force styled the Army of the Indus, and make such arrangements as I deemed necessary for the invasion of Affghanistan. Time was on the wing, and admitted of no delay. I felt the measure was a bold one; I knew I had a distance of 300 miles, through a bleak, an ill-supplied, and a strong country, between me and this place, but I felt to go was necessary. The order to advance was in my pocket; I had the utmost confidence in the troops, and go I did. Whatever were the obstacles and difficulties I had to apprehend, I hesitated not to move on, with stout hearts and without a murmur on the part of the men. We overcame all impediments, and walked an efficient force up to those towers of which we gained possession on the 26th of April. Had the Scindes faced us in the field, they would have been punished for their temerity. The troops desired nothing better than a fair fight, having marched so far for it."
With respect to Ghuznee, it was unnecessary for him to enter into any details, but there was one point, and a very important point, which had not been alluded

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to;—namely, the conduct of the troops after they had forced their way into the place. That conduct did them the highest honour. There was no instance of improper conduct, of complaint to the commander-in-chief, and females had been respected to the utmost possible extent, a circumstance almost unprecedented, and which entitled the troops to the highest praise. It was with great delight that he found his noble and gallant Friend uphold the character he had obtained under the great captain of this country.
Mr. Humehad much pleasure in concurring in this vote, and he looked back with great satisfaction upon the manner in which the whole expedition had been conducted. He believed that it was an expedition more likely to be beneficial to India than any which had previously taken place. Having seen the lamentable results of inefficient attempts to carry out great arrangements, he thought the conduct of Lord Auckland was marked by the greatest wisdom, inasmuch as he had assembled an overwhelming power to carry his design into execution. Besides, much of the success of the expedition was owing to the ample manner in which the necessary supplies had been provided. He had served thirty-five years ago in India, with some of those regiments which appeared to have distinguished themselves, and he knew that it was a matter of complaint among such men that their brave and gallant actions were not sufficiently valued at home. He believed the Indian army had not received the full meed of approbation for their gallant conduct; and he was therefore gratified by the unanimous vote of approval which the House was about to pass. He thought Lord Auckland's conduct eminently entitled him to be included in the vote. With regard to the anxiety of the right hon. Baronet opposite to know the state of the revenue, he was satisfied that when the accounts were produced, heavy as they must be, yet, considering the effect produced upon the whole of India, the expense would be found in reality enonomical.
Sir De Lacy Evansrose to express his entire concurrence in the vote, at which he felt much gratified. With regard to the expediency including the Governor-general in the vote, he had only one observation to make. He had the honour of listening to the illustrious Duke, whose authority was admitted on all hands to be the
1340
highest that could possibly be alluded to, when he was expressing himself upon this subject. In the warm and strong expression of his approbation and admiration for the conduct of the expedition, the noble Duke's expression had been at least as strong, if not stronger, in reference to the Governor-general, than to the general officers, or troops concerned in it. If there was no precedent for including the Governor-general in the vote, this was a very good time to establish one, for there never was a time when the good conduct of a Governor-general or of a civil authority was more conspicuous.
Sir Robert Peelshould be sorry to do injustice to Lord Auckland. He should regret if it were supposed that he had expressed any doubt of the zeal or activity of Lord Auckland. He only doubted the policy, upon principle, of including a civilian in a vote of thanks to military authorities. He objected to including the Governor-general, as he should object to including a Secretary of State. For instance, Lord Bathurst, by his attention to military supplies, might have been largely instrumental in obtaining the successes in the Peninsula; but he should have objected to including him in such a vote of thanks, on the general principle that a civilian ought not to be included in thanks to officers for a military exploit. He did not doubt the personal good conduct of Lord Auckland, or that he had been distinguished by the utmost attention to those preparations which fell within his province.
Sir J. C. Hobhousesaid it was quite unnecessary for him to say a word, after the unanimous approbation with which the proposal had been received. He would not have risen, but that the hon. Gentleman seemed to imply that he had himself expressed some doubt of the policy of Lord Auckland. He had not expressed any doubt of the kind. It was his intention to have said, that if ever the opportunity should occur, he would be prepared to take his share in the defence of the policy of the expedition.
First and second resolutions carried unanimously.
Upon the third resolution, conveying the thanks of the House to Major-General Sir Willoughby Cotton and the other officers, being put,
Sir Henry Hardingesaid he thought he heard the right hon. Gentleman speak of Brigadier-General Sale by the title of

1341
brigadier-general. He believed that gallant officer had led the storming party at Ghuznee, and distinguished himself, as he always did, in a most eminent manner. He believed it was the usual practice to thank general officers by name, and therefore begged to know whether the name of Brigadier-General Sale was to be included in the resolution. He did not know whether he was in order; but he was obliged to advert to the point now, because the resolutions had not been made known to the House, as he thought they ought to have been, before that night.
Sir J. C. Hobhousesaid he had originally intended to include the names of all the general officers, not only that of Brigadier-General Sale, but those of General Wilshire and General Thackwell, but he was afraid of making some mistake by leaving out the name of any officer who might be entitled to be mentioned. He thought it safer, therefore, to put only the name of the second in command.
Sir Henry Hardingesaid that after the battle of Waterloo all general officers had been thanked by name. He attached great importance to the point. Every officer, under the circumstances, thought it a high honour to himself and his family to have his name mentioned, and he should therefore, strongly recommend that the resolution should include the names of all the general officers present at the capture of Ghuznee, or within hearing of the guns.
Sir J. C. Hobhousesaid there would be an inconvenience in making a distinction between the votes of that House and those come to by the House of Lords. Every one must have been aware of the nature of the resolutions from having seen those agreed to by the House of Lords. It would not answer to include in the resolution the names of those only who had been present at Ghuznee, because the resolutions applied to all concerned in the expedition.
Sir R. Peelthought it would be awkward to come to a different conclusion from the House of Lords. At the same time, to draw a distinction between truly brilliant services, as those performed in India, and others performed in Europe, might create dissatisfaction. Perhaps the better course would be, first to follow the precedent of the House of Lords, in passing these resolutions, and afterwards that both Houses should specifically mention the names of the general officers.
The third and other resolutions unanimously agreed to.

SOCIALISM.—CASE OF MR. PARE.
—Lord Ashleysaid that, with a view of saving the time of the House, he would take the liberty of putting a question to the noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies. He wished to know whether a rumour which prevailed was correct, that Mr. Pare had ceased to hold the office of superintendent registrar of the town of Birmingham.
Lord John Russellsaid that Mr. Pare had tendered his resignation of the office of superintendent registrar of Birmingham. That resignation had been accepted, and Mr. Pare had ceased to hold the office.
Lord Ashleysaid, that Mr. Pare having ceased to hold the office, he would not at present bring forward the motion of which he had given notice. He must be allowed to say, however, that if Mr. Pare were guilty, the Government ought to have passed sentence on his conduct, and if he were not guilty they ought to have supported him. He should take the liberty of bringing the whole subject under the notice of the House at an early period.
Mr. Warburtonrose, but
The Speakerbegged to remind the hon. Gentleman that there was no question before the House.
Mr. Warburton: Then I move the adjournment of the House. The hon. Member said, that the noble Lord was not contented with asking a question and receiving an answer, but proceeded to make an observation with regard to Mr. Pare. He (Mr. Warburton) should therefore now state what had come to his knowledge of the character of Mr. Pare. A petition had been presented by Mr. Pare respecting his conduct, which had been the subject of observation in another place. The character of an individual was at stake, and if this opportunity were not taken of justifying Mr. Pare, as far as his conduct admitted of justification, the opportunity would be lost. It would go forth to the world that he had resigned his situation, and that no observation had been made upon the mode in which the circumstance had taken place ["Order, order."] He would stand on his right to make this observation ["Order" and "cheers."]
The Speaker: The hon. Member has moved the adjournment of the House. I apprehend that making that motion does not entitle him to go into observations on another subject.
Mr. S. O'Brienbelieved that this was the first time the House had shown an indisposition to hear the defence of an individual who had been openly assailed in the House.
Lord Ashleycould assure the hon. Member for Bridport, that he had not said a word against Mr. Pare. He had merely said, hypothetically, that if Mr. Pare was guilty, the noble Lord should have dismissed him; and if not guilty, the noble Lord should have brought the whole force of the Government to support him.
Mr. Warburtonsaid the noble Lord had given notice of a motion upon the conduct of Mr. Pare. It was then announced that Mr. Pare had resigned, and no observation having been made upon that by the noble Lord, it would be left in doubt whether Mr. Pare was guilty or not. It would be the consummation of injustice to refuse to hear his defence. If he gave a notice on the subject, he could not tell when he might have an opportunity of bringing it before the House. In the meantime Mr. Pare's conduct would be subject to all the reflections that might be made. The hon. Member was proceeding, when
Sir George Clerkrose to order, and said it was totally contrary to the practice of the House to move an adjournment, and then proceed to make observations upon some other subject.
Mr. Warburtonwould not press the subject upon an unwilling House, but would call the attention of the House to the petition of Mr. Pare to-morrow.
Lord John Russellcould not help observing that the whole irregularity of this discussion was owing to the course taken by the noble Lord. If the noble Lord had contented himself with asking the question, there would have been no irregularity. But the noble Lord first rose at an irregular time, and then, not contented with getting an answer, he made an observation, that if Mr. Pare was guilty, he ought to have been dismissed, and if not, to be defended. Upon that arose the whole question. He did not take notice of the observation at the time, thinking it might lead to some discussion; but he denied that the noble Lord had a right to make any inference as to Mr. Pare being guilty or not guilty of any particular crime.— Subject dropped.

LIGHTING THE HOUSE.
Sir. F. Trenchsaid, he was about to address the House
1344
on a practical question, and one upon which he did not feel it necessary long to occupy the time of the House. He should wish, however, that, if possible, it should be discussed in a full House, as it was a subject in which all the hon. Members were interested. When the present mode of lighting the House had been first adopted, it had been suggested that time might be afforded for further experiments; that time had been afforded, and the House was now in a condition to pronounce its opinion as to the success of the experiments. He had taken great pains on that subject: he had incurred odium and obloquy, and some ridicule in consequence; but he should be amply rewarded if he were enabled to effect an improvement. The hon. and gallant Gentleman moved—" That the mode of lighting the House of Commons by wax candles, is preferable to the present manner of lighting, and that, therefore, the lustres and green shades be replaced forthwith."
Lord Eliotwould state one fact which he thought would induce the hon. and gallant Member to postpone his motion. Before they came to any decision, they ought to be afforded an opportunity of seeing the effect of the present light; but sufficient notice had not been given to Mr. Gurney, to enable him to complete his arrangements. He hoped that sufficient time would be given to complete those arrangements before the House came to any decision. He could accomplish all those arrangements during the Easter recess. He was acquainted with Mr. Gurney, and he was able to state that he was a man of talent and industry, and he should hope that the experiment would be fairly tried.
Mr. Humesaid, that Mr. Gurney had received very short notice to make the arrangements for lighting the House, but when sufficient time should be allowed him, there was no doubt that he would be able to remove any inconvenience which existed. There was one inconvenience which hon. Members must have noticed, namely, a sort of fog or mist which was sometimes perceived, but that arose not from the mode of lighting, but from the mode of ventilating the House, which filled the air with particles of dust, and rendered it unfit for respiration; it was caused by the House being ventilated from below. He hoped they would allow time to have the experiment fairly tried before they decided.
Mr. Warburton, wished that the experiment should be fairly made, and the hon. and gallant Officer could at any subsequent period renew his motion. He found the greatest relief from the new mode of lighting, for, instead of numerous candles glaring in his face, the light was now above, and the hat formed a shade for the eyes. It was desirable that as large a number of Members as possible, should pronounce their opinions upon the subject, and it was peculiarly desirable, that the Speaker should state his opinions, which were most important.
Mr. Benettsaid, he was a very old Member of the House, and was agreeably surprised, on first seeing the new light, to find, that though a little gloomy at first, on taking a paper of small print from his pocket, he found he had not been able to read for many years past, so well as on that occasion. He was perfectly satisfied, that this light was the best the House had yet tried. He should, therefore, vote at all events for a longer trial.
Mr. Briscoesaid, he was not so old a Member, nor was his sight so defective, though not so good as it had been. He felt it difficult to decide upon the subject, but was, on the whole, inclined to think he gave the preference to the present. With respect to the mist, he thought it did not arise from the light, but from the dust which arose from the numerous holes in the floor for the purpose of ventilation. There were gentlemen engaged in the gallery above, to whom the light and its effects were of the utmost consequence, and he had taken it upon himself to ask them their opinion respecting the present lights, and they were unanimous in its favour. He certainly would vote for the Bude light.
Colonel Salweyconsidered, that they were greatly indebted to the hon. and gallant Member, for his repeated attempts to enlighten the House. He thought
"'Twas sweet to view, from half-past five to six,
Their long wax-candles, with short cotton wicks,
Touch'd by the lamplighter's Promethean art,
Start into light, and make the lighter start."
Having seen it in that light, he should certainly support the hon. Member's wax-candle motion.
The House divided:—Ayes 69; Noes 50: Majority 19.

List of the AYES.

Alsager, Captain

Hurt, F.

Arbuthnott, hon. H.

Inglis, Sir R. H.

Ashley, Lord

Irton, S.

Attwood, W.

Jackson, Sergeant

Baillie, Colonel

Jermyn, Earl

Barneby, J.

Jones, J.

Barry, G. S.

Knight, H. G.

Bentinck, Lord G.

Lambton, H.

Boiling, W.

Liddell, hon. H. T.

Bowes, J.

Litton, E.

Bradshaw, J.

Lygon, hon. Gen.

Bridgeman, H.

Meynell, Captain

Broadley, H.

Morris, D.

Burrell, Sir C.

O'Ferrall, R. M.

Calcraft, J. H.

Packe, C. W.

Chapman, A.

Pakington, J. S.

Clerk, Sir G.

Perceval, Colonel

Clive, hon. R. H.

Polhill, F.

Cochrane, Sir T. J.

Praed, W. T.

Darby, G.

Pringle, A.

Dick, Q.

Rae, rt. hon. Sir W.

Dowdeswell, W.

Round, J.

Duncombe, hon. W.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Duncombe, hon. A.

Salwey, Colonel

Ellis, J.

Scarlett, hon. J. Y.

Filmer, Sir E.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Gaskell, J. M.

Sheppard, T.

Gordon, R.

Shirley, E. J.

Gore, O. W.

Smyth, Sir G. H.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Somerset, Lord G.

Graham, Sir J.

Troubridge, Sir E. T

Grimsditch, T.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Hodgson, R.

Verner, Colonel

Hope, hon. C.

TELLERS.

Hotham, Lord

Trench, Sir F.

Houldsworth, T.

Fremantle, Sir T.

List of the NOES.

Aglionby, Major

Langdale, hon. C.

Baines, E.

Lincoln, Earl of

Baring, rt. hon. F. T.

Macaulay, rt. hn.T.B.

Barnard, E. G.

Maule, hon. F.

Beamish, F. B.

Morpeth, Viscount

Benett, J.

Muntz, G. F.

Blake, M. J.

Muskett, G. A.

Briscoe, J. I,

Norreys, Sir D. J.

Brodie, W. B.

Ord, W.

Brotherton, J.

Pigot, D. R.

Bruges, W. H.

Pusey, P.

Busfeild, W.

Rickford, W.

Clay, W.

Rolleston, L.

Crompton, Sir S.

Russell, Lord J.

Currie, R.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Duke, Sir J.

Smith, B.

Eliot, Lord

Staunton, Sir G. T.

Elliot, hon. J. E.

Style, Sir C.

Evans, W.

Teignmouth, Lord

Fenton, J.

Turner, E.

Finch,F.

Wallace, R.

Greg, R. H.

Ward, H. G.

Greig, D.

White, A.

Hughes, W. B.

Winnington, Sir T. E,

1347

TELLERS

Wyse, T.

Hume, J.

Yates, J. A.

Warburton, H.

HIGHWAYS OVER BRIDGES.
Mr. Barnebymoved for leave to bring in a bill "to remove from counties the expense and liability of repairing the highways over bridges, and the 300 feet next adjoining to any ends of the same."
Lord G. Somersetopposed the motion. If the expense of repairing such highways should be taken from the counties, it must necessarily be imposed on private individuals or parishes. To such a proposal he should strenuously object, as, instead of localising such expenses, they should rather be disposed to generalise them.
Sir C. Burrellsaid, that until they should see how the railroads would answer, they ought not to suffer the common road-trusts to fall totally into neglect.
Mr. Jonessaid, that most of the highway-trusts through the country were insolvent. He thought that a county should be the smallest space that ought to be rated for the repair of those roads.
The House divided:—Ayes 17; Noes 52: Majority 35.

List of the AYES.

Aglionby, Major

Eliot, Lord

Bowes, J.

Evans, W.

Dowdeswell, W.

Jackson, Sergeant

1348

Lambton, H.

Sheil, rt. hon. R. L.

Litton, E.

Turner, E.

Lygon, hon. General

Verner, Colonel

Maule, hon. F.

Winnington, Sir T.E.

Perceval, Colonel

TELLERS.

Pigot, D. R.

Barneby, J.

Shaw, rt. hon. F.

Darby, G.

List of the NOES.

Barnard, E. G.

Hurt, F.

Blair, J.

Irton, S.

Bolling, W.

Jones, J.

Bridgeman, H.

Langdale, hon. C.

Briscoe, J. I.

Mahon, Viscount

Broadley, H.

Morris, D.

Brotherton, J.

Muntz, G. F.

Bruges, W. H. L.

O'Brien, C.

Busfeild, W.

Ord, W.

Crompton, Sir S.

Packe, C. W.

Currie, R.

Power, J.

De Horsey, S. H.

Rickford, W.

Duke, Sir J.

Rolleston, L.

Duncombe, hon. W.

Rushbrooke, Colonel

Duncombe, hon. A.

Salwey, Colonel

Filmer, Sir E.

Scarlett hon. J. Y.

Finch, F.

Sheppard, T.

Gordon, R.

Smyth, Sir G. H.

Goulburn, rt. hon. H.

Somerset, Lord G.

Graham, rt. hon.Sir J.

Style, Sir C.

Greig, D.

Vere, Sir C. B.

Grimsditch, T.

Wallace, R.

Hawes, B.

Warburton, H.

Hodgson, R.

White, A.

Houldsworth, T.

Hughes, W. B.

TELLERS.

Hume, J.

Burrell, Sir C

Humphery, J.

Baines, E.

Leave refused.

MINUTES.
Bill. Read a second and third time:—Prince Albert's Annuity.
Petitions presented. By the Duke of Richmond, from several Parishes in Scotland, against the system of Intruding Ministers upon Parishes against the wishes of a majority of the Inhabitants.—By the Duke of Wellington, and the Bishop of Salisbury, from several places, against the Doctrines of the Socialists.—By the Bishop of Salisbury, from some Board of Education, for Protection to the Church of England.—By the Duke of Sutherland, from several places, against the Importation of Foreign Flour into Ireland.

INTRUSION—CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
The Earl of Aberdeenpresented petitions from Cromarty and several other places in Scotland, against the intrusion of ministers into the Church of Scotland. All these petitions prayed that no ministers should be intruded on the Parishes in Scotland without the consent of the parishioners. Their Lordships, perhaps, knew, in some degree, the agitation and excitement that existed in Scotland on the subject of these petitions. He said in some degree, because he believed that noble Lords, not personally
1278
connected with that country, would find it exceedingly difficult to form any conception of the nature and extent of the feeling which prevailed in consequence of the proceedings of the Church courts and civil tribunals with reference to this matter. The state of feeling which now prevailed, and of which the noble Viscount opposite might be aware, was pregnant with mischief to the good order of society, and to the general peace of the country, which must necessarily he affected by it. That was not the occasion to enter into any inquiry as to the nature and causes of those dissensions which now so unhappily prevailed. Nevertheless, he should now state his conviction, that the principle of what was called "non-intrusion" had always existed in the Church of Scotland—had always been recognized—and effect had been given to it, more or less at different times. The will of the people had, in fact, always formed an essential ingredient in the election to the pastoral office. Those who now adhered, to that principle, did so he was convinced, from a sincere and conscientious conviction. The difficulty was to give, in a reasonable way, effect to that popular will, when duly and properly expressed, having, at the same time, a just regard to other rights and interests. He was himself disposed to believe, that the Church possessed within itself the means of regulating this matter; but after what had passed on the subject, he feared no attempt could be made for such a purpose by that body without being called in question. In his opinion their Lordships ought to have recourse to some legislative measure, having for its object to restore the peace of the Church of Scotland, and to heal and compose those dissensions which now distracted that country from one end to the other. In saying this, however, he wished it to be understood, that he did not presume to question the decision pronounced on the subject by that House in the course of last Session, and which had been made public by a noble and learned Lord, who was not then present. In that decision he entirely and perfectly concurred. He thought it was a decision favourable for the character of the Church of Scotland, and for the morals of the people of that country; both of which, in his opinion, would have been likely to suffer by the endurance of that law—the Veto law, which the Geneneral Assembly had attempted to establish, but which that House had pronounced to be illegal. He should conclude by asking,

1279
whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Ministers to introduce any measure, having for its object the removal of the difficulties which now surrounded that question? And, if so, at what time it would be brought forward?
Viscount Melbournewas aware of the great importance and deep interest of the subject to which the noble Earl had called the attention of their Lordships. The matter was under the consideration of Government, and probably a measure would be introduced on the subject. Ministers had not, however, made up their minds on the question, and not having determined on the course which they meant to pursue, it would be highly inexpedient, for him to enter into any explanations at that moment.
The Earl of Aberdeen, as some measure on this subject was under the consideration of Government, would not press the matter further. He hoped, however, that when such a measure was brought forward it would be adopted by the Cabinet, and would not be treated as an open question; because, if it were so treated, the Church and the country would be apt to question the sincerity of the Government.
The Earl of Haddingtonwas only anxious to say, that the great difficulty of this question turned on the exact meaning of the phrase "non-intrusion." He hoped, that ho measure proposed by the Government would confer on the people the arbitrary power of rejecting a minister capriciously and without due cause.

STATE OF THE NAVY.
Lord Colchesterrose to call the attention of the House to a subject which he had brought before their Lordships in the course of the last Session. He had, at that time, endeavoured to call the attention of their Lordships and of the country to the undefended state of our own shores, and he believed it would be found on inquiry that very little change had since taken place. 'It was, therefore, his intention to move for certain documents principally in continuation of those given last Session to show the present state of our naval defence. In making this motion, he might lay himself open to the imputation which had fallen upon others, that he was actuated by party motives; either that, for the sake of attacking Ministers, he was describing a weakness in our naval force that did not exist, or which, if it did
1280
exist, he was unwisely exposing to foreign nations. To the first objection, which was only personal, it would not become him to make any reply. To the second, which had reference to our naval weakness, he would only say, that it was already too well known to foreign powers, and too little known to ourselves. He was, therefore, anxious that such measures should be taken as would effectually remedy the existing defects in our naval system, and prevent the country from feeling the evil consequences that were likely to arise from long neglect of the naval department. The first return he should move for was an account of the number of seamen and marines voted for the service of 1839. He was, aware that 35,000 men, the number voted, was as great a number as had been voted since the peace. But that was no sufficient answer0; because the state of our relations with other nations, their state of preparation, and the state of our commerce, rendered it necessary to have a larger naval force afloat at one time than at another. The second return he should move for would be a statement of the distribution of that force on the different naval stations abroad. And the third return would be a statement of our forces on the home station, showing the number of officers, seamen, and marines composing the complements of those ships, and also of the numbers actually borne on their books, on the 1st of December, 1839. Now, this was a question which appeared to him of very great importance. What did our force consist of? Only three guardships of from 110 to 120 guns, manned with one-third of their complement, and with officers for a fifth or sixth rate, and, therefore, not in a state for efficient service. Upon the home station there was one frigate of 36 guns with some small schooners and cutters. That was the whole force at home, excepting ships recently put in commission for foreign stations, or that were about to be paid off, which we had for our own protection, or for sending to any other part of the world that might need it. To judge how far that force was sufficient, their Lordships should look to what the other great powers in Europe had in readiness. The other two great naval powers of Europe at present were Russia and France; and their Lordships would see how badly we could bear a contrast with those powers. Russia has in the Baltic 28 sailof the line, 18 frigates, 39 smaller vessels carrying 3,672

1281
guns, and 30,087 men. She had in the Black Sea 13 sail of the line, 11 frigates, 17 smaller vessels carrying 1,956 guns, and 14,300 men. It had been said that many of the ships of Russia were old, and that the soldiers were senton board for a few weeks,during the summer only; but if he was not mistaken, an officer in the confidence of her Majesty's Government, who had seen that fleet, and made a report on it to the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty, was of a different opinion. So much for the state of the naval force of Russia. From the official budget for 1840 presented to the King of France on the 1st of January, 1839, for the peace establishment, it appeared that there had been wanted for the service of this year 34,000 men, being within 1,000 of the number voted for this country, notwithstanding our extensive colonial possessions and great trade with every quarter of the globe; while the colonies of France were comparatively few and insignificant. Of this number, there were for the service afloat above 23,000 men. The following was the distribution of those 34,000 men. There were 8 sail of the line, 12 frigates, 20 steamers, 90 other vessels—making 130 sail, carrying 20,498 men; 8 vessels "en disponsibilité," carrying 1,225, and 16 "en commission de rade" carrying 120. According to the report of the Minister of Marine there were for the service "àterre," equipages de ligne, 4,323; artillerie de la Marine, 1,402; regiment d'InfanterÍe 5,119; and for the service "à Mer" there were etats majors and equipages des bailments arms 22,420, officiers militaires (not included above) say 753, making altogether a force of 34,017 men. It should likewise be borne in mind, that the ships of France were of a more powerful description than ours. They had 40 sail of the line kept ready for their peace service, one-half of which the noble Lord opposite was aware were in the water, and the other half in the slips, ready, or nearly ready, for launching, as the French preferred that to the ordinary mode of disposing them. Of these there were 10 of 120 guns, 10 of 100, 15 of 90, and 5 of 80. Now let them see the comparative state of the resources of France and England for the defence of their own shores, in case of any sudden attack, or upon foreign stations in case of any unexpected emergency. He had stated, that we had only three guardships at home. Well, we had two sail of the line at Lisbon, which he supposed the noble Lord opposite
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would consider part of the home force. The noble Lord was of opinion that it was preferable to have ships in the Mediterranean to lying idle in the ports of England. Now, instead of admitting that, it appeared to him that even Lisbon ships, which were so much nearer than the Mediterranean, could not be regarded in that light. In the first place, the Hastings had been stationary at Lisbon for no less a period than 1,230 days, being nearly three years and a half, without lifting her anchor, and the present flag-ship, the Donegal, was imitating her example. So much for lying idle in ports. Then with respect to ships at Lisbon being ready for any service for which they might be required, he must beg their Lordships' attention to a circumstance which occurred two years ago. It would be within their Lordships' recollection that in the month of December, 1837, the news arrived of an insurrection in Canada, which rendered it most important, that troops should he sent out without delay. Unless he was greatly misinformed, there was not, when that news arrived, one disposeable ship in the English ports, with the exception of the Inconstant, a ship of 36 guns, which sailed for Canada on the 7th of January. It was, therefore, necessary to call ships from various foreign ports. The Pique, 36 guns, was recalled from the coast of Spain, and sailed from Cork on the 23rd of January, by which there was a loss in point of time of one fortnight. The Hercules, of 74 guns, was recalled from Lisbon, and sailed from Cork on the 27th of February, whereas, had she been in an English port, she might have sailed on the 7th of January, showing a loss of six weeks. She was followed by the Vestal which did not sail until the 3rd of March. So that he could not think that ships lying at Lisbon could be considered as ready for general service as if they were lying in English ports. While on the subject of disposable ships, he might mention that the squadron which was now said to be fitting out for active service in China, consisted of four ships—the Blenheim (72 guns), which was recalled from Lisbon, and arrived the 11th of December, the Blonde (42 guns), which was commissioned November the sixth, the Pique which was the only efficient ship, but which was not ready till November, having been sent to Canada, and the Andromache (26 guns), which had been recalled from North America, and arrived on the 14th of December, Now, in observing these dates and facts

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let their Lordships remember that the answer of the Government to the memorial of the merchants, upon the subject of the seizure of opium at Canton was dated about the middle of November, when it was to be supposed, the fact of the seizure having been known to them, as a noble Lord just observed to him, in the month of August, that they had made up their minds as to the course they would pursue. It appeared, however, that at that period, there was only one efficient ship at their command. He would now call their Lordships' attention to the advantages which other nations possessed in the manner of increasing their forces. In Russia, men were kept constantly ready, and in a state of discipline. In France, they had their seamen registered, and could at all times increase their force; while we generally took some months to beat up for voluntary seamen. We found a difficulty, too, in getting officers to serve, especially mates. They had no established rank in the service, and when thrown on shore had no half pay. That was not a very enviable position for young men to be placed in. By a return which was made by order of the House of Commons on the 3rd of last May, it appeared that of 310 mates in her Majesty's navy who had passed their examination previous to the year 1836, 7 had served 18 years, 15 had served 17 years, 25 had served 14 years, none had served for a less period than 10 years; and yet of those 310 mates, 288 were still looking forward for those posts for which they were so well qualified, but 22 of them having been promoted. These were facts which he trusted would meet with consideration from the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty. There was another point to which he could not avoid adverting, and in reference to which many plans had been, at different times, suggested by officers more competent than he was—he meant that of giving encouragement to the men. In his opinion, no means could be more effectually adopted for that purpose, than in the first place, the continuing pensions granted for long service, to those who re-entered on board her Majesty's ships, instead of, as at present, depriving them of their well-earned reward so long as they were serving their Sovereign. Many on this account preferred serving in merchant-vessels, and even in vessels of foreign countries, the evil effect of which was evident, as her Majesty's navy, thereby often lost efficientand valuable men, capable of teachingthe younger men their duty, and consequently
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facilitating the service. In the next place, he would restore the pensions to the widows of warrant officers, and permit the petty officers of ships paid off, to be borne on the flag-ships at the different ports (as authorized by his late Majesty when Lord High Admiral), till they could find sea-going ships. He was sure the noble Lord would agree with him, that it was highly desirable to hold out some encouragement of the kind. Another evil which had arisen from our having so small a squadron at home, was, that no squadron had of late years assembled to practise evolutions. However well manned might be our ships, if they were not accustomed to exercise together, they would not be able to perform their evolutions with that degree of dexterity and skill which was so essential in engagements with the enemy. Since the year 1831, we had had no squadron practising evolutions; so that the greater part of the younger captains in the service, he meant those who commanded frigates, had never seen any. It had been said, that though we had no ships, we had steam-vessels; that steam-vessels had become so numerous that we had nothing to do upon any occasion or emergency but to hire them from merchants, of whom we should find very many in the city willing to enter into such engagements. It was certainly true, that the number of merchant steam-vessels was greatly increasing and that of that number there were some which were fit for the service of the navy; but in the valuable report of the commissioners appointed to inquire into steam-boat accidents, he found two opinions, to which he begged their Lordships' attention. Speaking of the quality of present steamers, Messrs. Curling and Young observe:—
"In some vessels, materials of inferior description and perishable quality are employed; in others, the connection of the parts is ineffective, the fastening injudicious or scanty, or the workmanship negligent."
Mr. Gibson says:—
"The steam-packet owner looks only to the splendour of the saloon and the velocity of the vessel. It is upon these alone, that he depends for success; the safety of the passengers is altogether lost sight of; to insure speed the fabric of the vessel is made as light and flimsy as possible to hold together."
It should also be remembered, that many of our ships were getting old and defective and that many might be disabled in action or through accident. It was, therefore, highly necessary that a proper supply should be kept up. He should, therefore, move also

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for a return of the names of all ships launched since January the 1st, 1835. If he was not much mistaken, the returns for which he moved would show beyond a doubt, that our home station was deplorably deficient in case of any sudden attack and that we have no adequate reserve to supply reinforcements which might be required suddenly in any of our distant stations when their Lordships took into account the chances of war, and the contingencies of hurricanes and weather. Besides, our squadrons could not be increased so rapidly as those of France or Russia—another reason why we should not leave our shores open to attack, and our trade unprotected. He hoped, therefore, that endeavours would be made on the part of this great empire to regain that supremacy of the sea which we had so long and so gloriously enjoyed, which, he was sure, if proper means were taken we had the power to regain, and which, if once regained, he hoped we should ever after be able to preserve. The noble Lord concluded by moving for the returns specified.
The Earlof Mintothought that the greater part of the observations which had been made by the noble Lord had better have been reserved until the returns for which the noble Lord moved had been made to their Lordships, and it would then be seen whether the navy was or was not in the state which the noble Lord had represented. He would most readily acquit the noble Lord of being influenced by anything like a factious motive in making the present motion, but at the same time he must say, it appeared rather strange that some such motion had not been made during the whole time of those reformations which had almost reduced it to the lowest ebb. When the pressure of economical measures was so great as to induce the Government to withhold the necessary supplies for maintaining that sort of establishment, upon which the efficiency of our navy mainly depended— when those popular reformations were taking place, and those large reductions were made, there had not been heard one word in reprobation of the measures. It was only since a larger demand had been made upon the country—when stores were amply supplied, when ships were thoroughly repaired, and when the fleet had been nearly doubled—it was only then that those returns were moved for, only then that complaints were made of the danger with which the country was threatened from the inefficiency of the navy. Through many of the ob-
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servations which had been made by the noble Lord, he. did not intend to follow the noble Lord; first, because he did not deem it necessary; and next, he was not prepared, even should it be deemed desirable, to detain their Lordships. There were but one or two points of the noble Lord's speech to which he should address himself. The main ground of complaint which had been put forward by the noble Lord, was, that our fleet was not sufficiently strong. He was ready to admit, that the question was not so much whether we had more or less ships, but whether we had enough. He would also admit, that we had not ships enough in commission to cope with the whole Russian fleet, if that fleet were also in commission, and prepared to take the seas against us; but he would at the same time say, that it was not necessary to be in such a situation at the present moment. It was not necessary at a time of profound peace, when from our political relations with that and other states it was not only highly improbable, but there was not even the slightest danger of hostilities. Under such circumstances, he could not at all see why we should make preparations to obviate evils which were merely imaginary. The noble Lord had told them that France had at present a large fleet. Undoubtedly she had, and it was probable that in the course of the summer, she would have a considerable force at sea; but what was there to lead to the supposition that she would employ that fleet against this country? The noble Lord said, that our shores were in danger, because we had no line of battleships in the Downs, or at Spithead; but, what country was there in the world, which would maintain a naval force equal to the protection of its whole coast in a time of profound peace? Rather than this, it would be better to go to war at once with every naval power, and take the chance of the issue. The noble Lord said, we had but three ships for our protection. Now, what was the fact? There were 21, or 20 sail of the line in commission, and he would ask their Lordships was not that a respectable force? The noble Lord alluded to our having a considerable force in the Mediterranean. This only showed that we had a large disposable force at hand, which when necessary we made use of, and the sending them on detached service was a proof that it was well to have them in reserve, so as to avoid the expense of putting ten or twelve more in commission. At this very moment, there were four sail of the line

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at home, there were two at Lisbon, and two others were on their return from the Mediterranean. During part of the last month, there were five sail-of-the-line on the home station, but of course the number varied at various times. The noble Lord had stated nothing to show that the relation in which we stood towards foreign powers would render it either desirable or necessary to have a large naval force in commission. The noble Lord said, that when a naval force was called for in Canada, we were not prepared to answer the call. There was a delay, he said, in sending ships to America. Now, the noble Lord must see with different eyes from others, for so readily had the call been answered, that the gallant officers in Canada expressed both their satisfaction and surprise at the expedition with which the call had been responded to. In a very short period, six line-of-battle ships had been sent to the colony. At present we have 22 sail-of-the-line, and 12 in the Mediterranean. Should circumstances arise, which would render the equipment of a larger naval force necessary, he should not shrink from the necessity of coming to Parliament and asking for the means necessary for such an equipment. Whilst the noble Lord talked of the want of new ships and the decay of the old ones, he contended that they had at the present moment 40 sail-of-the-line, which could in a very short time be called into activity. The noble Lord had alluded to the comparative weakness of our naval force as contrasted with those of France and Russia. That might be very true in part, and as related to an old fleet. The newest were always, of course, the stronger in. proportion; but it was not true that we had not large ships capable of coping with those of other countries. With respect to the fleet in the Mediterranean, it should be remembered that it was stationed there for a particular purpose, for which purpose it was found to answer sufficiently. It was sent out for the purpose of acting in alliance with the French fleet. If it were sent out with a hostile motive to act against France, it of course, would be unwise to select weak vessels, and in that case the noble Lord's observations respecting it would have been well founded. Still, however, the force in the Mediterranean was a respectable one, being composed of three-deckers and large second rates, with the full peace complements. The noble Lord said, that the Andromache had been recalled from North America for the
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purpose of being despatched to China. This was not the case, as the Andromache had not been sent for. The noble Lord had also alluded to the manner in which she was manned. Now, he would inform their Lordships, that the manning was fully up to the highest peace complement, and far beyond that of any vessel in which the noble Lord had served since he held the commission. The complement of men was larger than was ever before known in time of peace. In some cases the complement was nearly as large as in time of war; in others it was quite so; and in others again, it was even beyond the war complement. Yet in the budget of charges which the noble Lord had opened up upon the Government, he had laid particular stress upon this point. With regard to what had fallen from the noble Lord respecting themates and men, he wouldmerely state that the subject was under the consideration of a committee, over which the noble Duke (Wellington) opposite presided, and it would, therefore, not become him to utter a word upon that subject. He would only say, upon this point, that the condition of the petty and warrant officers was far better at present than it ever had been before, under any other Government, inasmuch as an increase had been made to their pay, and they enjoyed several other advantages. He did not remember any other topics in the speech of the noble Lord which called for a reply, and he would therefore only say, that the Government would not be found wanting in all that was necessary for maintaining our naval establishment upon a proper footing. All that was necessary to its efficiency should be closely looked after. They would see that the existing ships were kept in a state of perfect repair; that those which were old and unfit for service should be replaced by others of a larger size, and superior construction; but, above all, care would be taken to turn to the best account the advantages which the great increase of power in steam-vessels afforded, and there would be no hesitation on the part of Ministers in proposing whatever was necessary and practicable for the efficiency of the navy, without resorting to those showy modes which were sometimes adopted for the purpose of captivating applause. He had no objection to make the returns which had been moved for by the noble Lord, though he did not entirely like the character of some of them. There was one of the returns, however, to which he objected, and he thought their Lordships

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ought to pause before they granted it. He meant that one which called for a return of all the ships which were being built within the same period, with the state of forwardness in which they were at present. He did not think it was right to call for an official return of what was done, of what was doing, and of what was in progress. If the noble Lord wished to press for that return, he (Lord Minto) would not resist it, but he would take leave to suggest to the noble Lord, that it had better be omitted.
The Earl of Hardwickecould not agree with the noble Lord who had just sat down, that we were at present in a state of profound peace, that there were no signs of approaching war, no symptoms calculated to create alarm, and that our position was so perfectly secure as to leave us nothing to think of but the quiet and peaceful enjoyment of our own firesides, that there was nothing to call our attention to the state of our dependencies abroad, or to the defence of our country at home. How could the noble Lord talk of 40 sail-of- the-line at a moment's readiness, when there was a fleet in the Mediterranean and another proceeding to China? What could the noble Earl have been thinking of when he asked why no complaint had been made before? Why, the reason was obvious. There had been no complaint because all was in a state of peace. War was not talked of, or even hinted at, and not only was there peace, but there was satisfaction also, and not the remotest supposition of a war existed in the mind of any man. Could this be said now? Were not our American colonies in a most unsettled state? If noble Lords followed through the whole line of the American coast, they would find a French squadron carrying on a sort of buccaneering expedition. Last year it was exhibited at San Juan d'Ulloa, and this year at Monte Video. Then again, passing on to India, could it be said that we were in a state of peace? Look then to China, where it was found necessary to send out a squadron, which, if our naval resources were such as the noble Lord would have the House think, ought by this time to be half way on its mission. Was there no war in India? For what, then, was the vote of thanks passed on Monday night, to the army which had so signalized itself there? Was that peace, he begged to ask? Had not the House and the country a right to put these questions to the noble Earl opposite? The noble Earl had then proceeded to state
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that he had not a fleet sufficient to meet the Russians. Had the noble Earl a fleet sufficient to meet the French? Let the House observe what really was the state of the fleets of the two countries, France and England, in the Mediterranean. He would give the noble Earl opposite a considerable advantage in the discussion of this part of the question, for instead of only twelve sail of the line, which die noble Earl claimed as being now in the Mediterranean, he would concede to the noble Earl that there were fourteen sail of the line. Against that amount of British naval force he would put the French naval force at present in the Mediterranean, which, from the report of Admiral Rosamel, it appeared was twelve sail of the line. He said in his report that he had nowhere less than twelve sail of the line; that in 1839, he was to have eight sail of the line; and that he had twelve sail of the line on the 1st of January, 1840, in the Mediterranean. The noble Earl said they were not equipped. Why, they were either in the port of Toulon, at anchor in the Levant, or they were engaged in the conveyance of French troops to Algiers. Now, what was the state of the two fleets in respect of ships' complements. The complement of the twelve sail of the line of French vessels was, according to the report of Admiral Rosamel, 8,222 men; the complement of the fourteen English sail of the line, giving them, as for the sake of argument he would, a full war complement, amounted to 8,710 men. There was an advantage, he admitted, in this respect to England. The number of guns also was in favour of England by 224; but presently he should call attention to a comparison of the weight of metal in the two fleets. But speaking of the complements, when he turned to the frigates, he found that the balance of each fleet was thrown all the other way. The complement of eighteen French frigates scattered all over the world was 7,884 men, while the complement of twenty-four English frigates scattered all over the world was only 5,045 men, giving a balance in favour of the French of 2,839 men, which balance would be sufficient to man the remainder of the line-of-battle ships which the noble Earl said he had. With regard to the calibre of the ships, the noble Earl did not dispute that out of the twelve line-of-battle ships there were one of 120 guns, one of 100 guns, two of 90 guns, three of 80 guns, and five of 72 guns; that of the eighteen frigates, there were

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four of 60 guns, seven of 50 guns, and seven of 40 guns, besides twelve corvettes and 35 smaller vessels. Now the English 'ships, with the exception of a very few, were chiefly of 74 guns, or as they were; now called 72 guns, with one of 104 guns; one of 92 guns, and three of 80 guns. So; much, then, for the comparative force of the French and English fleets. He would venture to say, that in ability to manœuvre, the English were exceedingly superior in every way, yet at the same time there was that disparity of force which rendered it excessively necessary (and it was not extraordinary that such should be the case) that British officers should look with anxiety to the duties and services they might be called upon to perform. The noble Earl had stated, that he had quite a sufficient force in other parts of the world, and that on the home stations he possessed six disposable frigates. He apprehended that those six ships included the flag-ships at home, and he could not think the noble Earl serious when, with their present complements, he could include them in his disposable force at home. [The Earl of Minto: They could be manned immediately.] He could scarcely think so; but, admitting it for the sake of argument, the noble Earl had then three line-of-battle ships in port at home that he could man immediately. Why then, if the noble Earl had these three disposable ships, had the noble Earl sent out to different parts of the world to recall ships home in order to send them out elsewhere to carry on his operations? Why, when the British flag had been insulted {for so he must call it, though an apology had been made) last year at San Juan D'Ulloa, had the noble Earl sent out to the American station to Sir Charles Paget to come to that coast with the squadron under his command? Why, instead of taking that course, had mot the noble Earl sent out at once and without delay the three ships which he stated he had in reserve at home? If the noble Earl had three sail of the line fit for use at home, why did he not at once send them out to China, instead of calling the Blenheim to refit at home, where she had been since December last? In short, why i was it that the noble Earl had not availed: himself of his disposable reserve at home to: settle those points of difference which had arisen in different foreign countries? Why, because they were not fit for the service. Out of the six sail of the line of which the noble Earl had spoken, two were at Lisbon
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still, and yet he included them in his reserves at home. Last year, a treaty had been concluded between France and this country, by which it was agreed to draw a line of demarcation of the ground each country was to use in fishing. Had that treaty been of any use or benefit to the English fishermen—had they been protected by any ship of war? No; if the noble Earl would ask the fishermen of Dover, or of Brighton, he would find, that as there was no ship to protect the British boats, the treaty had been a dead letter altogether. Of what use, then, were the reserves of which the noble Earl had spoken? The truth was, the reserves were three ships of the line, officered according to fifth or sixth rates, with three lieutenants instead of eight or nine, and just a sufficient complement of men to wash the decks and keep the ships clean. Beyond that they were worth nothing. If his representations were true, he begged to ask the noble Earl opposite what he would do in case of emergency? The noble Earl had said he could send 40 sail of the line to sea directly. Recent events, had, however, shown that a line of battle ship could not be manned without the greatest difficulty. A ship of the line now lay three months in port, and was seldom manned in that time. [The Earl of Minto: The Benbow was manned in two months.] The case of the Benbow furnished a remarkable instance, but even her crew had not been completed without sending for men to all the ports of the country, and he knew well that it was impossible, without difficulty, now to man a ship except by draughting from other ships in harbour. In short, though France had a reserve, though Russia had a reserve, still he maintained the noble Earl opposite was not prepared with a reserve. The truth was, that the officers of the British service who felt that they would have the responsibility of answering to their country for the performance of the duties they might be called upon to execute, were sensible that if sent to sea against a force trained and drilled such as that of France, they were not competent to meet them in a manner that would be satisfactory to this nation. That formed one of the reasons why the subject was pressed upon the attention of the noble Earl and of her Majesty's Government. He begged to ask whether now, after twenty-four years of peace, there was in the country that degree of experience amongst the officers of the profession who

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were fit for active service, that experience which would warrant their being sent to sea in command in the same way as were the French officers who were kept in constant practice? The French had no more officers than they actually wanted for the use of their ships and dock-yards: they were, therefore, constantly in employment, and were never without their uniforms on their backs. Admiral de Rigny, while captain of the Syren, had told him that he had been afloat 16 years. Now, were the young officers of this country—men of his own standing in the profession—competent to meet such men as these? Though there might be great zeal for, and attachment to, the service—though there might be deep loyalty and affection towards the country on the part of British naval officers, was there that affection and attachment towards the Government which would of itself induce them, if called upon, to serve? Did the noble Earl think he had done justice to the officers of the naval profession—had he bestowed the patronage of the profession in a manner which became him as First Lord of the Admiralty? Had this been done in such a manner as to induce the officers of the navy to serve the Ministers as they would the Crown? There was one home which had heretofore always been left for an old and meritorious officer, where in his old age he might repose on his honours, and be regarded as a man who righteously had deserved that place. In what manner had that home been recently disposed of? He would take that piece of patronage as a type of the general way in which the noble Earl opposite had acted—he would take it as a sample of the sort of feeling which the noble Earl had shown towards the service. The noble Earl had given that appointment to one who had not fought the battles of his country against the enemies of that country, but who had fought side by side with the noble Earl at an election contest. Would that course of proceeding satisfy either the service or the country? Though the noble Earl had said he could send forty nail of the line to sea immediately, would that force go forth officered by men who not only loved their country, but who also had affection for those Ministers with whom they had to deal? If such were the case, then this discussion was useless, and the noble Earl opposite had a triumphant answer to the case put by his noble Friend who originated the discussion. Then, if the noble Earl had not a sufficient force at
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home—if he had not sufficient force in other parts of the world—if he had not seamen to man the forty sail of the line, putting officers out of the question, he asked him in what position did he stand, and what course he had to pursue? He believed that the cause of this state of things was not wholly attributable to the noble Earl—he did not believe but that the noble Earl was desirous to do his best—he did not believe that the noble Earl objected to have the appointments and patronage of a large fleet, but the cause of this state of things was that the successive reforming Governments which had taken the country in hand, had commenced a most niggardly system of finance, which had so cut the naval profession down, that the noble Earl had been obliged to ask in supplies for 4,428,0002., and had expended upwards of 5,000,000 l., being an excess of 969,776 l. over the naval expenditure of the empire when the noble Duke behind him (Wellington) left office. Since the effects of niggardly economy had been seen, the Government had attempted to whip up, and place the navy on a better footing. The noble Earl had said he would not flinch from asking additional supplies if he found them necessary; but he complained that the service should have been let down so low as to make it necessary to whip up in order to make a decent show to the French, who, while British ships had been rotting in harbour, had increased their force and was ready to say to this nation, "Now we can deal with you." He believed he had now answered all the points raised by the speech of the noble Lord opposite. There still remained another point to which he desired to refer. It had no reference to the active force of the country, but it was a subject upon which he spoke with great respect and diffidence—he alluded to the state of the young officers of the profession. The noble Earl had spoken of his forty sail of the line being ready for sea, but where would he find his midshipmen, for there were now no young men coming forward to the profession? Had the noble Earl tried to improve this state of things? The object of parents sending their sons into the profession, would be first to see they had a proper education, and yet the first thing the noble Earl had done, was to knock up the only means provided in this country for the education of young men for the naval service. The noble Earl, after putting down the only naval seminary, had erected a new plan for the

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education of youth intended for the naval profession. He told the noble Earl last year, and after two years' trial of his plan, that it had not succeeded. There were now but twenty-three instructors in the fleet, and though the noble Earl had said he intended to have one highly educated instructor of good character and of great mathematical attainments on board each ship, yet after three years' endeavour to induce men of that description to enter the service for this purpose, he had now only twenty-three instructors in ships which had ninety midshipmen on board. But what had become of the education of the rest of the youth? "Oh !" said the noble Earl, "I will provide for them ashore in the old building which constituted the former seminary, and there, with new instructors, I will receive thirty young men who have served their time afloat and passed their examinations, and there I will finish them as at an university." The noble Earl had now got there just twelve pupils instead of thirty, and these, he begged to remark, had been taken from service afloat at that period, of all others, when they should be kept at sea—the period at which, having passed their examination, they ought to be practised in quarter-deck duty, and occasionally have charge of the ship. On all these grounds he maintained, that the education scheme of the noble Earl had been a failure. The East India Company still retained their college at Sandhurst, and why should not this nation have kept up its naval college as it was, and have provided that in every ship there should be an instructor in the shape of a lieutenant, who had sense enough to induce the youths on board to continue the exercise of those attainments which they had acquired at that college? If that had been done, the parents of the country would have been satisfied with the means of education provided for their children, and the navy of Great Britain would not be so deficient of rising young men ready for the service as she was at present. He had now done. He did not think it necessary to trouble their Lordships with any further observations on this subject: he would only say, that while the noble Earl was thinking of the various political affairs which occupied the Cabinet at home—while they were considering Irish and other internal questions—the noble Earl ought to remind his colleagues, that the liberties of this empire were nothing, unless its means of naval defence were kept in a proper condition.
Lord Colvillesaid, that holding the high rank which he had the honour to hold in the profession, he could not avoid offering a few observations to their Lordships. If he consulted his own inclinations, he should not, at that late hour, trouble the House. But, as it seemed to him, France had awoke from her slumbers like a giant refreshed, and had held out her arm towards this country with something like a threat. Now, so far from being in a state I of profound peace, we were in such a state, that the French Minister of Marine had prepared the country in a very short time for entering on service, for he observed, that in the expenses stated to be wanted in the current year, the Minister had alluded to the necessity of the navy being in a state to meet one of three things—a state of war, a stale of peace, and another to meet the exigencies which might arise and had arisen. An announcement had been made from the throne extremely agreeable to hear—that our relations with foreign countries remained undisturbed. He did not know how far their Lordships could feel that to be the case: he left them to decide. But they all knew the uncertainty of human life, and if, unfortunately, the King of the French should die, how long was it possible to say, that we should be at peace with France? He did not treat this as a party question at all; but it was clear where the shoe pinched. The Government had not exerted themselves sufficiently, or aroused themselves from that apathy in which they had been long plunged in regard to the state of naval affairs. How was our commerce to be carried on, if, in the case of a war breaking out, we did not maintain that determined and decided superiority at sea which, in the late war, we had the good fortune to possess? There was a time when, in consequence of the great and glorious victories obtained under a Wellington and a Nelson, followed up by the victories of those who fought under their banners, that our commerce was carried into every corner of the world. Could that be expected to be the case now, if we did not start at the commencement of a war with a superiority at sea? The great difficulty, he thought, existed in the state of our finances. He thought that it was high time that something should be done. When he saw the sum which it would require to put our navy on that respectable footing in which it ought to be, and reflected that a much larger sum had been sacrificed to the silly and ridiculous project

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of a penny postage, he could not but express his regret. The state, too, of a very important branch of our commerce with China, involving a revenue of about three millions and a half, was such as to prevent our making those advances in support of the navy and those exertions which were necessary. He was one who deprecated the opening of the trade with China, and who was of opinion that that trade could never be carried on properly except through the medium of a body such as the East-India Company. He feared that it would require a considerable force to settle that trade, and he, for one, regretted the loss of time which had occurred in carrying out that purpose, in having to send for ships of war from Lisbon for that service. He did not think that the exertions had been made which ought to have been made, considering the present state of affairs; at the same time, the establishment of our navy was not in the state it ought to be. Many men were allowed to be scattered about the world when ships were paid off, because there were no other ships to receive them. It was very easy to talk of forty sail of the line, but where were the men or the officers to come from? He would not call in question the materiel—the store of the dockyards; he believed enough had been said last year to induce Ministers to have the dockyards well supplied with stores; but where were the men and officers? The only way to be prepared for war was to have an efficient force in peace. With regard to the Hastings, which bore the flag in her of his gallant Friend, Sir W. Hay, was the exercise of that ship such as was calculated to keep the men efficient? Practice in the navy was everything, and the officer who took charge of a man of war, and had to put her through evolutions, would be unable to give the necessary orders if he had never done so before. These were things which were part of the necessities of the case, and he hoped that the purse-strings of the country would be opened—opened they must be, sooner or later. He much deplored that such a state of things existed as at present. He did think that there was danger of the taunt of Napoleon being literally fulfilled—that Great Britain was nothing but a nation of shopkeepers. But how were their shops to be kept open if a war should commence? Where were the funds to come from for their great plate-glass windows and their gin palaces? If we were not properly prepared for a war, our ships
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would be taken in the Channel by steam-vessels; and if we supposed it possible that we could trust to the mercantile steam-vessels as fit for vessels of war, we should be very much mistaken. We had no vessels to compete with the French steam-vessels of war. He would also express his anxious hope that something should be done for the midshipmen, mates and officers on service, many of whom we were likely to lose for want of something being done for them. A commission had sat on the subject, which led him to hope the greatest things for this class of men.
Viscount Melbournehad certainly not expected so lengthened a debate to occur on this occasion, and was therefore not prepared for it; but some observations had been made by the noble Lord, and particularly by the noble Lord who had addressed their Lordships last but one (Earl Hardwicke), of such a nature, of such a character, and of such a description, that it was impossible for him to pass them over in silence. He had begun by stating, that in recent times to which he had referred no attention had been paid to this subject—that no attention had been paid to the state of the navy—that no remark had been made about the diminution of its forces, because everything was calm and quiet, and everybody was satisfied because perfect peace prevailed in Europe—because the minds of all men were perfectly satisfied. When was this, he begged to ask? What times did the noble Earl mean? What times did the noble Earl refer to? He declared, that since the termination of the French war he remembered no such times. The noble Earl referred to the Administration of the noble Duke (Wellington). Did he refer to his Administration in 1828 and 1829, when Russia was marching on Constantinople? Did he refer to those periods as exhibiting no danger and no reason to look for war? At that period the noble Duke had only been restrained from actually interfering in the affairs of Europe because he believed that Russia would fail. Did the noble Earl allude to 1830, the year of the termination of the administration of the noble Duke—the year when, contrary to every representation of the noble Duke, the French entered into that expedition to Africa which was now spoken of as the most dangerous to this country? He asked to what period he referred, when it was possible for us to

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rest on the perfect tranquillity of Europe? He confidently stated, that there was no such time. He confidently answered, that there was no such period since the termination of the great war of the Revolution in which it was not our duty to attend to the situation of the navy; and he confidently stated, so far as he could understand the statement of his noble Friend, that there was no period in which greater attention had been paid, in which greater exertions had been made to retrieve former errors, if errors they were, than during the Administration of his noble Friend who now presided over the Admiralty. It was very easy to make calculations of the navies of foreign powers— that they had so many sail of the line, and that we had so many; it was very easy to point out dangers in different parts of the globe—to point out the commercial interests we have; to say, "Here we have not sufficient guard, there they have not sufficient guard; there they have not sufficient security; there they have not sufficient safeguard on your interests." He (Viscount Melbourne) said, it was impossible to have sufficient safeguard on every point; it was not in the nature of things with an empire like ours, and with the difficulties which must always arise. It was impossible that any finances or resources of the country could maintain a force sufficient to be ready at every point. They must run some risk—they must run some hazard somewhere—they must commit some points to chance; there must in some instances be delay, and there might in some instances be disaster; and the only course they could pursue was, to have as large a force as it was possible for the country to maintain, and to dispose of that force with the greatest skill in order to give assistance in the most easy and ready manner in every quarter. The noble Lord said, the Russians had their sailors in regiments, and could put them on board their ships immediately. It would be absurd for him (Viscount Melbourne) to give any opinion on the merits of different services; it was certainly true, that such was the organization of the Russian navy, and that they could so bring them into immediate service. He would not give any opinion as to the merits of those troops when embarked; he could not pretend to do it. He said the French could also man their fleets in a similar way, from having their sailors registered.
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He knew very well that that was the case, and he knew very well what was the opinion of persons holding high offices in France of their own navy and the character of their sailors. He knew very well it was very diffident indeed, and and that they did themselves think that from the circumstance of the short time during which their men served, and from their never returning to the service when the had left it, from the indisposition to the service which prevailed, there were many persons in that country who despaired of their navy ever reaching a great degree of efficiency; and, therefore, he could not entertain the desponding notions which the noble Earl had attempted to induce the House to embrace on this subject. But the noble Lord had gone further than all this; he not only said, that the foreign services were so extremely well conducted, and so very powerful, and able, and superior, but he did not spare his own service, or the officers of his own grade and character; he attacked the experience and skill of our own officers. [No, no !] The noble Earl did; he said that they had no experience compared with French officers.
The Earl of Hardwickerose in explanation. He had said this in arguing with the noble Lord on bringing forth his forty-sail of the line. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) stated, that the Navy-officers had not at this time equal experience, generally speaking, with the officers of the French navy; and he did it for this reason: it required some explanation, because the noble Lord put it forth as if some aspersion had been cast by him (the Earl of Hardwicke) on his brother officers. He did it for this reason—that the French navy had no more officers than were necessary to command their ships, and to carry on service on shore; therefore, they came into service a-float in rotation. Look at our navy: an order in council obliged the officers to serve six years, and, therefore, the officers of a certain standing in the service, who would be the officers in time of war (for the old officers of the past war were past the service), had not the experience of the French officers.
Viscount Melbournecontinued.—That was what he (Viscount Melbourne) had said, that the officers of the navy had not the experience of the French officers; and the noble Earl went on and attacked the spirit of those officers, and stated that from

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the inferiority of their means, they could not enter without apprehensions of the result upon the services which they were called upon to perform. He did not believe, that there was any fear on their part; he believed that there was that sanguine confidence in them which had always distinguished the service, and which would carry them through. The noble Lord had attacked also the patriotic zeal of the service, and had stated that the officers would be unwilling to come forward in time of war, under the present Government to serve their country, if that country should call on them for their services. The noble Lord had said, that on account of the manner in which his noble Friend had dispensed the patronage of the service he had discouraged the whole of it, and had filled that service with a different feeling from that which had before prevailed in it, and he had adverted to the circumstance of the late appointment to the governorship of Greenwich Hospital. For that appointment he begged leave to say he was as much responsible as his noble Friend, perhaps more so, and from all he could learn of the state of the navy—he did not wish to say anything disrespectful of the comparative merits of the services of officers, bat he did not believe, that any individual had a greater claim to a disposeable preferment than the person who was appointed; but at the same time however that might be, however his noble Friend might have dispensed the patronage of the navy, however he might have acted, he did not believe, whatever feeling might prevail, or whatever dissatisfaction might be felt, that in case of difficulty or danger it would have any effect whatever on the feeling and spirit of the officers of that profession. And with respect to their not feeling confidence in themselves—with respect to their not feeling that superiority over the enemy which they had always felt, perhaps the noble Lord might so feel, but he did hope, that the general feeling of the navy would be that which it always had been, and that their spirit and courage would never be found wanting on any occasion on which they might be called on to act. The noble Earl had declared that he had not taken up this matter as a party question, but he could not think that the noble Earl had argued the question as if it were not a party question—he could not think that the noble Earl had spoken on
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it with impartiality. He admitted that it was a question of great importance and well worthy the attention of the House and the attention of the Government at all times, and though he could not participate in the apprehensions of the noble Earl, and though he could not think that there was a greater call now for military exertions on the part of this country than there had been in late years, yet he certainly thought that the state of the navy ought to receive attention as well as the state of the naval forces of the other powers; he certainly thought that we were bound to keep up our resources in time of peace on such a footing as might enable us to use them most effectually and most beneficially in time of war, and he should always be glad, and he was sure that his noble Friend, at the head or" the Admiralty, would always be ready, to receive advice upon this subject; yet he could not but think that that advice might be tendered in less of a party spirit, and with a greater infusion of patriotism, than had been displayed in that evening's debate.
The Earl of Hardwickesaid that what the noble Viscount had said seemed very like an endeavour to throw upon him the imputation of having made remarks which must render him odious to his brother officers. ["No, no !"] It was, certainly, very much like it. The noble Viscount had misunderstood him. What he had said was, that he did not think that when the patronage was bestowed as it had been bestowed of late in the navy, officers of the navy could be so favourably disposed as they ought to be to the Ministers of the Crown. He had thrown no aspersions on his brother officers.
The Duke of Wellington: The noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty had said, very truly, that the proper time for discussing this subject, in order to ascertain whether the fleet was equal to all the services which might be required of it, was after these papers had been laid on the Table, but lie must say, that this was not the only question which their Lordships were called upon to consider on this occasion. They must look a little at the state of the services which had been required of the navy for the three or four last years, and see how those services had been performed. That was the real question, and it was an answer, in a great degree, not only to the observations of the

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noble Earl, but to those of the noble Viscount also. The noble Viscount had thought proper to refer to what had fallen from his noble Friend (the Earl of Hardwicke), and to draw their attention to the state of Europe and of the world during the years 1827, 1828, 1829, and 1830. Now, he had always understood, that the navy, in those years, was fully equal to the performance of all the services required of it; he had never heard of any want of ships in any part of the world, during that period—he never heard that the navy then was smaller or less efficient than it ought to have been—indeed so efficient was it, that he believed the first thing which the noble Lords who succeeded to the Government in 1830 did, was to make a very large reduction in the navy. Therefore, that the noble Viscount should compare the state of things as existing in the years 1827, 1828, 1829, 1830, with the state of things as they were now, or as they had been for the last two or three years, did appear to him, begging the noble Lord's pardon, to be one of the most ridiculous things which he had ever heard in their Lordships' House. He was not aware, that there were any apprehensions of war in the Year 1828 or 1829. The fleets of the three principal naval powers of Europe were at that time co-operating in the Mediterranean, and he had never heard at that time, that there was the smallest notion of our going to war, or that the fleets of this country were not sufficient for all the services which were required of them. But the state of things for the last three or four years, had been entirely different. In the month of December, 1837, the noble Lord opposite had come down with a message from the Crown, to inform Parliament of the revolt of an important portion of his Majesty's dominions in North America. He had taken the liberty of giving a bit of advice to the noble Viscount at the moment, he had entreated the noble Viscount not to consider the war he was then engaging in as a little war. He had recommended to the noble Viscount, to form his fleets and armies on such a scale as might be worthy of a great country, and in such a manner as might enable them to perform the services which might be required of them for the protection of commerce, in order to prevent insults to the British flag, and to preserve British subjects from the conse-
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quences of illegally and improperly established blockades, and, in short, that they should be able to perform all the services which, under the Government of 1828, 1829, and 1830, they had performed, and performed without either complaint, reproach, misfortune, disaster, or disgrace. But what had been the facts? First of all he said, that the service was neglected in North America, and that at that moment, that was to say, more than three years after the period when that revolt was announced to their Lordships, the noble Viscount was not nearer to the settlement of the affair, as far as military means were concerned, than he was three months after it commenced. What was the cause of this? Because the Government had neglected to provide means, or to call upon Parliament to provide means, (besides those necessary for the settlement of that affair), for enabling the fleet and the army to perform the services, which it was their duty to perform, and the proof of this was, that they were obliged to call away ships to perform those services from the Gulf of Mexico, notwithstanding the necessity of attending to Buenos Ayres, and the necessity of attending to other parts of the world, at the same time that they ought to have had large fleets and armies on the coast of North America, in order not only by military force to put down the revolt in her Majesty's dominions, but to give by those means that political and moral support, to the governors and officers employed in those colonies, and to those who were engaged in political services in other places, which all in such situations ought to have given them in every part of her Majesty's dominions. He said, that if they had had in 1837 and 1838, such a fleet and army as they ought to have had, he should not have felt under the necessity of addressing their Lordships, and this contest in North America would not have been now, in the year 1840, unsettled and impending over us. Their Lordships would recollect, that at the same time that we went to war in North America, we were at war in Central Asia, and most particularly we were carrying on a maritime war—we were at war in the Persian Gulf. The Admiral of the Indian station was himself in the Persian Gulf with the greatest part of his squadron, carrying on operations at the very moment that those affairs were in discussion in China,

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which ended in that outrage and disgrace which occurred, he believed, in March last. The admiral, when that happened, too, was engaged in the Persian Gulf, instead of being, as he ought to have been, in the Canton river. Their Lordships had now under their consideration, the accounts of the transactions which had taken place in the Canton river up to September, or October, or November, he did not recollect which, that is to say they had the accounts up lo seven months after these events occurred, which were known in this country in July or August, and yet still there was in the Canton river only one frigate, which was unable to do anything, and even since the arrival of this frigate another insult had been offered to her Majesty's superintendent there. This was what the noble Viscount called peace. He thought that it must have been perfectly well known to the noble Lord, and perfectly well known to her Majesty's superintendent at Canton, long before March last, that this opium question was hanging over them, and must come to a decision; the superintendent must have given notice of this to the authorities of India, and among others to the admiral of the station; and he must say, that if the admiral had got notice, he ought to have gone to Canton, and suspended his operations in the Persian Gulf. Now, the noble Earl at the head of the Admiralty must know that a fleet cannot go in a few days to the Canton river from the Persian Gulf. [Viscount Melbourne.—That's our case.] The Government ought to have provided such a squadron in Asia as might have been able to have performed the peace services which her Majesty's subjects might have occasion to demand from them, not only there, but in other parts of the Indian command. But no such thing was done; the Government had not the means of doing it; they had not called upon Parliament to provide such means; and therefore it was that we had suffered this disgrace, and this loss that we had suffered, he might say, this serious misfortune, loss, and disgrace, in the Canton river. This was the case of a great nation carrying on a little war, and thinking that they could put an end to a little war by insufficient means, without considering that so great a nation as we were had connexions everywhere in the inhabited globe; that every part of the world was visited by the subjects of the British Crown, and that every-
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where they had interests at stake, and without considering that when we get into war in Central Asia or in North America, questions will arise everywhere, and that therefore the Government ought to be prepared to support the peace services at least in every part of the world. His remarks might be called faction. If after having said this, three years ago, he had manifested in the interim any disposition to withhold his assistance from her Majesty's Government, either in the way of vote or of advice, or in any other way in which he thought he could lend them or the public his assistance, he would allow that it might be imputed to him that he was factious; but, he never said anything with that view; he wished in what he said to be of use to the noble Lords opposite if he could; and he only adverted to the subject because the noble Viscount for the purpose of taunting his noble Friend (the Earl of Hardwicke) thought proper to draw a comparison between the period in which he was at the head of the Government and the present, whereas there was no more comparison between those times and these than there was between the year 1840 and the year 1740. With respect to the noble Viscount's remarks on his noble Friend's speech, he believed his noble Friend had been entirely misunderstood by the noble Viscount, and especially with respect to what his noble Friend had said of the experience of the officers of the navy, and his explanation on that point must, he thought, be satisfactory to their Lordships. His noble Friend had stated that there were not means of instruction and practice for officers of high rank in the service; and that the officers of our navy, not having at present those opportunities of practice, and of seeing the manoeuvring of fleets in large bodies, which the naval officers of other countries had, could not have so much experience as the officers of other fleets, and that therefore they could not have the same confidence in themselves, and that particularly the French officers, from the great number of ships in proportion to officers, always had opportunities of practice. That was what he understood his noble Friend to say. By no means could his noble Friend have stated that there was among naval officers a want of confidence in themselves, and a want of confidence in those over whom they were placed. For his part, he always

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had felt, and then felt, the fullest and highest respect and confidence in gentlemen of that profession; he had always attempted to emulate their services in the services which he himself had been called on to perform, and he was sure that he had been desirous to emulate them in nothing more than in placing confidence, not only in officers of his own rank, but in the troops which were placed under his command. It was impossible for him to enter into all the details adverted to by the different noble Lords who had spoken on the present occasion, but he was bound to say, having sat upon the naval commission, together with the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty and other officers of the navy, that no men could have taken more pains than they did to adopt every measure which could be suggested with the view of improving the service, to render the old officers more desirous of continuing in it, and to engage in it as much activity and ability as possible. He should not have discharged his duty if he had not made this statement, and he had no doubt that when the report of that commission was laid before the public, his observations would be found to be fully borne out. He believed that the result of that commission would be to render the service more efficient. With respect to one topic alluded to by his noble Friend, and by the noble Viscount opposite, it was impossible for him to give an opinion. It appeared to him quite legitimate, in a discussion like the present, if a noble Lord thought that the Government patronage had not been fairly distributed, that he should declare his opinion to that effect. He had never heard a discussion of this kind in which such a topic had been introduced. As for himself, he had never turned his mind much to such points, and was not able to express any opinion on them. He knew it was a subject on which the minds of men were naturally jealous; and he did not think his noble Friend was justly liable to the charge of converting the present question into a party question, because he had thought proper to allude to that subject. He did not approve of these imputations of factious motives. It was his opinion, and he slated it again, that the noble Lords opposite had terribly neglected the Chinese affair; and this country, he feared, would have reason to regret that it had been so neglected. It
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was now eleven months since the transactions alluded to first occurred, and not one ship had yet been sent from this country to that part of the world. This did not look like capacity for the performance of those duties which the occurrences in that part of the world rendered necessary.
The Earl of Aberdeensaid, the noble Lord opposite, in alluding to the supposed dangers of the country in 1829 and 1830, had mentioned the French expedition to Algiers, undertaken, as that noble Lord represented, in spite of the representations and remonstrances of the noble Duke; and the noble Lord also stated, that the possession of that territory now constituted a source of danger and apprehension to the country. The noble Lord was quite mistaken in his facts. The noble Duke made no representation or remonstrance against that expedition—none whatever. The noble Duke did that which was better. He obtained a pledge from the French government, that if they succeeded in that expedition they should derive from it no advantage which should not be shared by the rest of Europe, and that no settlement should be made in that territory by France without the concurrence of her allies. If that pledge had not been given, that expedition, the noble Lords might be assured, would never have taken place; and, let him add too, that that pledge would have been fulfilled to the noble Duke. But the French government now knew with whom they had to deal. They knew that they might safely trust either to the indifference or apprehensions of the Government opposite.
The Earl of Mintosaid, that the noble Lord had thought proper to attack him for a misapplication of patronage, and had given, as an instance, the appointment of Admiral Fleming to Greenwich Hospital. That appointment was not exactly within his department, but he was not disposed to flinch from any responsibility attaching to it. He thought Admiral Fleming well worthy to hold the office. He challenged the noble Lord to enter into an investigation as to the manner in which he had distributed patronage. When the noble Lord spoke of the abuse of patronage, he did not know what was coming. He thought the House was doomed to hear the Plumridge case again. He only wished that when the noble Lord thought he had got a fair case against him for abuse of patronage, he would state it. The

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noble Lord said, that there was a deficiency of skill among our officers, in consequence of their number and the few opportunities that occurred of employing them, and that the French officers displayed more ability. He denied that this was the case. The discipline and skill of our naval officers formed the wonder and astonishment of the French officers on board vessels lying along side. He could not lose the present opportunity of bearing testimony to the great skill and ability displayed in every department of the British naval service. He should certainly wish that the number of officers not capable of being employed was not so great; but still he must say, that, when after a temporary retirement they returned to the service, they retained all the skill for which British naval officers were so distinguished.
Lord Ellenboroughinquired whether it were true, as had been frequently reported, that Admiral Fleming had never been engaged with the enemy? He asked the question, because it appeared to him that to entitle an officer to the highest situation of emolument and honour, it was essential that he should be distinguished.
The Earl of Mintodid not know how often Admiral Fleming had been engaged with the enemy, if at all. He believed that Admiral Fleming had been in action, but should be sorry to pledge himself to the statement. This he knew, that Admiral Fleming had from his youth seen service of the most active kind. He was distinguished for his skill and intelligence, and very few officers in the navy had discharged more arduous and useful duties than Admiral Fleming.
Lord Ellenborough: As the noble Lord does not know whether Admiral Fleming, now promoted to a high situation of honour and emolument, was ever in an engagement, I take for granted that the noble Viscount opposite made inquiries respecting the merits of this officer before he appointed him to an office for which, no doubt, many distinguished officers competed. I therefore now ask the noble Viscount to stale whether this officer was ever engaged with the enemy.
Viscount Melbourne: I do not know. Taking into consideration Admiral Fleming's general services, we thought him worthy of the situation he now holds. I beg the House to recollect that many distinguished officers have never been in
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action. ["Name."] I do not like to mention names, because I might be wrong with respect to them; but of the fact I am confident. Besides, fighting is not the only business of a sailor, nor of a soldier either.
Lord Ellenborough: That may be true; but fighting, and fighting with distinction, is that which entitles officers to places of honour and emolument.
Viscount Melbourne: I do not think so.
Lord Colchesterbelieved the real facts to be, that Admiral Fleming did command the Egyptienne frigate in Sir R. Calder's action, but that he never commanded a ship of the line in any general engagement, or any frigate in a single action with the enemy. There were in the Navy List nine admirals above him, who had been engaged in actions with honour and distinction. He begged to say, that if Admiral Fleming had been put in active command of a fleet, not a word would have been said against such an appointment. As to the latter part of the motion, with respect to the number of ships ordered to be built, he should omit it.
The rest of the returns were ordered.